hello! I was reading the Grey Knights Omnibus and the fight that took place between the grey knights and sisters was pretty crazy.
but there were a few moments when their physical strength seem far above any normal human.
and so I ask being ignorant on any sisters of battle fluff. how physically strong are they? they seem much stronger then guardsmen.
I understand they have power armor but do they have implants that increase strength as well?
I mean it must take a lot to pummel a grey knight backward >.>
Automatically Appended Next Post: Without armor, they are stong as ordinary Human. But with power armor they get a little more strength. I am sure Lynata or Melissia will fill out for me.
As Brother Coa said, they are pretty much the same strength and toughness as a Guardsmen, maybe little stronger due to their training. However, introducing power armour to the mix you have strength of the servos to multiply their natural strength several times over. Though still not at the level of Marines.
Sisters are stronger then normal humans because they wear PA, which increases the Str of its wearer.
in the game, the increase isn't enough to warrent an increase in basic strength because it uses a fairly broad range of stats.
That said, they will be physically fit. like a female US Marine or Army member.
They will certaintly NOT look like body builders(who actually see diminishing return on the massive increase in muscle mass. the first few gained pounds of muscle will increase your str more then the last few pounds will)
Power armor or not these chicks are dedicated to war and train far more physically than your average Guard, they'll be physically stronger then most Guardsmen or PDF. Probably some minor degree of bio-enhancement as well.
Basic guardsmen (and tau firewarriors) are at the low end of Strength 3. Ork boys are at the high end of strength 3. Sisters are between them, probably higher than stormtroopers (thanks to power armor) but not by too much.
Combat soldiers dont' need to be as strong as possible, they need to be strong enough.
Polonius wrote:Basic guardsmen (and tau firewarriors) are at the low end of Strength 3. Ork boys are at the high end of strength 3. Sisters are between them, probably higher than stormtroopers (thanks to power armor) but not by too much.
Polonius wrote:Basic guardsmen (and tau firewarriors) are at the low end of Strength 3. Ork boys are at the high end of strength 3. Sisters are between them, probably higher than stormtroopers (thanks to power armor) but not by too much.
Table rules and stats are not = to game fluff.
Well.... there's certainly not a complete disconnect.
I'd imagine that out of power armor sisters would be like any other elite female warrior/athlete: almost but not quite as strong as the male equivilent. With power armor, the sister is now strong enough to freely move a few extra hundred pounds of armor, so would almost assuredly be far stronger than before.
They're still no stronger than they need to be, which is to say strong enough to manuever in their armor and fire their bolters.
Polonius wrote:Basic guardsmen (and tau firewarriors) are at the low end of Strength 3. Ork boys are at the high end of strength 3. Sisters are between them, probably higher than stormtroopers (thanks to power armor) but not by too much.
Table rules and stats are not = to game fluff.
Agreed. Imo it's something like Space Marine > Ork > SoB > Guardsman > Fire Warrior
Polonius wrote:I'd imagine that out of power armor sisters would be like any other elite female warrior/athlete: almost but not quite as strong as the male equivilent. With power armor, the sister is now strong enough to freely move a few extra hundred pounds of armor, so would almost assuredly be far stronger than before.
Well, from the descriptions, the strength-enhancing mechanics of Sororitas power armour are not as powerful as the Astartes equivalent - which, in connection with a couple other gadgets being missing - allows the Angel-pattern armour to retain a comparatively small shape whilst still providing Marine-grade armoured protection. It's hard to say by how much a wearer's strength would be affected exactly, though. I wouldn't go as far and say "greatly", but in combination with their peak condition training it'd probably make a difference and allow them to bridge the gap between themselves and abnormally well muscled males. After all, Space Marines aside, the only humans who can deal with the weight of heavy bolters without the aid of a tripod are Battle Sisters in power armour and men like this.
Its probably not so much the weight of the heavy bolter as much as it is the recoil. the human body is capable of carrying a bolter or absorbing the Recoil, but not both. the PA allows the human body to do both. Harker's just a beast of a man and is out of the norm.
Melissia wrote:Sisters of Battle are not musclebuilders. They are warriors.
Try showing an image of a female USMC marine or a female Mossad agent or something instead.
sisters are as strong as a physically fit, exceedingly well-trained soldier. Their strength is then enhanced and stabilized by their power armor.
Very hard to find semi-nude pictures of female soldiers that show off their body shape without it being sexualized but yes RL female soldiers are disturbingly normal looking.
Grey Templar wrote:Its probably not so much the weight of the heavy bolter as much as it is the recoil. the human body is capable of carrying a bolter or absorbing the Recoil, but not both. the PA allows the human body to do both. Harker's just a beast of a man and is out of the norm.
Well, bolt weaponry employs low velocity projectiles which only accelerate after having left the barrel, and the extreme weight of the weapon may easily negate the kinetic force... Now, this is just me, but I think it's telling that the sources only ever talk about the "heavy weight" and "cumbersome nature" concerning such weapons, not recoil. The latter seems to be an interpretation of some licensed authors and parts of the fandom, but never once mentioned by GW themselves.
That said, it could still be enough to keep most people from using one reliably. Even a little kick can lead to a great loss of accuracy, considering the high rate of fire of this weapon. And once that gun is moving, the heavy weight that negates a good deal of recoil becomes a disadvantage, for the soldier carrying the gun would have difficulties stopping it again and/or holding it steady.
Also, the ammunition normally carried by the loader will add quite a deal of additional weight if someone attempts to just carry it all by himself.
GamzaTheChaos wrote:and so I ask being ignorant on any sisters of battle fluff. how physically strong are they? they seem much stronger then guardsmen.
I understand they have power armor but do they have implants that increase strength as well?
A GK is just a marine despite his training and gear, he dies as easily as any other marine. And the Sisters have Faith in the Emperor... some of them momentarily do things far beyond what seems plausible in order to put down enemies of the Church. If the SoB are fighting GK then obviously the Emperor wants the heretic marines to die. Common examples include increased strength or reaction speed, miraculously surviving a lascannon hit unscathed or sudden bursts of murderously accurate weapons fire. The Living Saint St. Celestine has even been known to return from tge dead in order to finish the fight.
Acts of Faith, in short. As in the rules their army has, but written into the story as impressive actions instead of +1S.
It isn't proven or disproven, rather it is implied that they are from the Emperor. It's kind of like the Orks I guess, they believe so hard it makes things happen.
Arturius wrote:What level of proof do you want, there? They pray to the Emperor and get miracles.
It could easily be manifestation of latent psychic talents powered by their belief.
Don't just generally assume what the Imperium believes is true.
But this is off topic, and I apologise for derailing the thread, a Sister of Battle outside of her power armour is as strong as a physically fit human woman, in the armour she should be stronger than human limits, but not Space Marine, or even Ork level.
GamzaTheChaos wrote:and so I ask being ignorant on any sisters of battle fluff. how physically strong are they? they seem much stronger then guardsmen.
I understand they have power armor but do they have implants that increase strength as well?
A GK is just a marine despite his training and gear, he dies as easily as any other marine. And the Sisters have Faith in the Emperor... some of them momentarily do things far beyond what seems plausible in order to put down enemies of the Church. If the SoB are fighting GK then obviously the Emperor wants the heretic marines to die. Common examples include increased strength or reaction speed, miraculously surviving a lascannon hit unscathed or sudden bursts of murderously accurate weapons fire. The Living Saint St. Celestine has even been known to return from tge dead in order to finish the fight.
Acts of Faith, in short. As in the rules their army has, but written into the story as impressive actions instead of +1S.
The Emperor, who was a psyker and didnt want to be worshiped?
Also the GK was founded by the Emperor, unlike SoB.
On topic, their strength is increase by their power armor and their rather intense training. Though SoBs dont have the implants (lol) that interface with their suits, so they wont be as dexterous in their suit as an SM.
Void__Dragon wrote:I could be wrong, but it's never been proven that the Acts of Faith are actually blessings from the Emperor.
Nor it was ever proved that Chaos Gods have any true power, nor that C'Tan are all so powerful and all, or that Necrons are numberless, or that Tyranids have some kind of "main fleet" going toward the galaxy...
Most things in 40k are just rumors, so we must belive it blindly since we have no proff for any of it.
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Spetulhu wrote: If the SoB are fighting GK then obviously the Emperor wants the heretic marines to die.
Ok....
1) Why would SoB fight GK? They are allies.
2) How are GK heretics?
"Real" 40k: They wouldn't.
Ward-ty k: Anyone can fight anyone, Grey Knights can fly in their mystical baby harnesses and will kill anything because THE EMPRAH SEZ SO!!!
Jackster wrote:The Emperor, who was a psyker and didnt want to be worshiped?
Also the GK was founded by the Emperor, unlike SoB.
Belief has power in the 40k universe - just like behaviour and emotion, and other abstract concepts. I refer you to Orks, one race's hedonism giving birth to a god and causing a rend in the fabric of space-time, and the gifts of the Ruinous Powers to their most devoted servants. There's no reason to explicitly connect the actions/desires of the Emperor with the seemingly-miraculous powers of the Sisters of Battle - just that their belief in Him is as fervent as the Orkish belief that Da Red Wunz Go Fasta.
That said, there's also no reason to assume the Emperor has no hand in matters - remembering that his ideals of the atheist ultra-society of mankind were based on the idea that there were no traitor legions, that his people would not be subject to the whims of the Dark Gods and the machinations of the Empyrean (by virtue of the Golden Throne's original purpose), and - possibly most importantly - that he wouldn't be a corpse strapped to the galaxy's largest life support machine playacting the role of Interstellar Lighthouse. Given that things didn't quite work out the way he planned, it's entirely possible that he is no longer opposed to his own deification for pragmatic reasons - after all, if people are going to believe in something, and it's a choice between Him on Earth and the Ruinous Powers...
It's all hypotheticals in any case - all that is known is that the Sisters of Battle are capable of performing feats in the field of battle that others consider miraculous. Where, how, why, is all open to interpretation.
In answer to the topic question, on a basic level I'd expect them to be as strong as a storm trooper when outside of their armour. Stronger than a storm trooper when wearing it, but not as strong as an Ork or Space Marine (for obvious reasons), saving in very specific, brief, and dramatically appropriate instances of the aforementioned miraculous events.
Don't get hung up on the Acts of Faith, why SoB have them or the fluffy GrimDark setting where anyone fighting the Church must by default be a heretic...
The OP mentioned a story where GK fought SoB who seemed much tougher and stronger than elite guardsmen. I mentioned the Acts of Faith as one more possible explanation beyond their suits and training.
I'd say the level of an olympic level athlete natural strength wise, and then toss in the belief in the emporor giving them a boost, like an adrenalin charge in a difficult situation, that allows you to do something you might not ordinarily be able to.
4oursword wrote:"Real" 40k: They wouldn't.
Ward-ty k: Anyone can fight anyone, Grey Knights can fly in their mystical baby harnesses and will kill anything because THE EMPRAH SEZ SO!!!
Isn't it implied that the forces of the imperium despite being allies sometimes have objectives that run contrary to each other. Sisters and Grey Knights could end up duking it out if both are after the same thing, one because they believe it to be a holy artifact of the church and the other thinking its a demon posses artifact. In a rational universe they should stop and talk it out, but in 40K where there is only war, superstition and misinformation rules supreme and orders are absolute, anything is possible.
4oursword wrote:
On topic: Stormtrooper strength.
Also, this.
Sisters are trained at the scholla Progenum along with commissars and storm troopers. They are thus trained as warriors since they are children while being put through the rigors of the scholla and indoctrinated into the imperial cult to the extreme. I would put them on at least the physical strength of any storm trooper. As has also been noted they are made much stronger by their power armor. They should in theory have the same strength output as a space marine, but without the interface for the power armor that space marines have they are slower and effectively weaker.
on a side note, why the hell do orks only have 3 strength? Have you looked at them? Their arms are as thick as a space marine in their armor.
No, they wouldn't be at the same strength as Space Marines just because of a neural linkup of some kind.
Oh, and don't act like the Black Carapace is the only neural linkup in the Imperium, there's plenty of others. The most common one is simply a cerebral plug, literally a plug at the base of the skull which connects to the brain and (optionally) a cord going from there to the equipment, or a direct plug from the equipment itself in the case of power armor. More advanced are implants like the Mind Impulse Unit favored by the Mechanicus, which assists in quickly converting thought into mechanical action as well as converting the senses of any equipment into senses for the human mind. Same location, but a far more advanced (and expensive) implant.
I'd always assumed that power armor was a strength multiplier, not a strength additive. A Marine is naturally strong, and his power armor amplifies that strength. Sister PA amplifies a lower base strength, so it stays lower.
Marine and Sisters PA also serve very different purposes. Marines are closer to commandos than modern heavy infantry, while sisters are almost protoypical mechanized heavy infantry. Marine PA is going to do more, and allow for more manuevering, while Sisters PA is designed for protection and handling heavier weapons than a human normally could.
1) Why would SoB fight GK? They are allies.
2) How are GK heretics?
Most obviously, accompanying the very first mention of the Sororitas was a picture of one gunning down a Space Marine.
More broadly, there are plenty of examples in canon of fights kicking off between the various different branches of the Imperial military: c.f. the Macharian Heresy, the Badab War, the recent histories of the Soul Drinkers, Blood Ravens and Relictors amongst them. In that light it's not difficult to imagine the Sisters and Grey Knights coming to blows over misunderstandings or clashes of jurisdiction between the Inquisition and Ecclesiarcy. The former actually occurs in the Grey Knights novels. It makes sense from the studio's perspective that players should always be able to imagine plausible in-universe reasons for a given match-up on the tabletop.
On topic, unless there's anything in the fluff to suggest that they're commonly augmented, I'd presume the Sisters of Battle, like Stormtroopers and Commissars, to be very fit, determined and well-motivated baseline humans, nothing more.
It can even be that Inquisitor A tells "his" Grey Knights one thing and Inquisitor B tells "his" SoB another. Differences between Radicals and Puritans can easily result in armed conflict carried out on the back of those warriors who simply do not know all the details of why they are really fighting each other. Also, did not the latest GK Codex include a passage of Grey Knights attacking the Sisters?
Regarding acts of faith: Psychic phenomena can be pretty much excluded - apart from purity screenings in the Schola Progenium (where psyker genes would likely be detected), the 3E version of the Shield of Faith also negated "friendly" psychic powers, so they'd pretty much cancel themselves out. This idea was also continued in the official rules for the miniature of the corrupted and psychically active Ephrael Stern, who was no longer able to use Acts of Faith at all.
The way I am interpreting the available information is that there's two possibilities where those powers come from, though to not deviate from the original topic even more I'll just point to the longer explanation of my theory here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/11/382275.page
Addendum regarding Sororitas strength: I'd actually think that Storm Troopers have a higher basic strength due to being males. Both are trained to peak performance, but genetically men do have an advantage in the strength area, whereas women are generally more inclined to become better shooters. As soon as a Sister puts on the expensive power armour, though, she'll very likely surpass him in strength as well.
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:on a side note, why the hell do orks only have 3 strength? Have you looked at them? Their arms are as thick as a space marine in their armor.
Maybe their muscles function differently or are less efficient. That said, are there not also lots of Orks that have S4? I always thought most Orks would be S3 or S4, whereas most humans would be S2 or S3.
Lynata wrote: the 3E version of the Shield of Faith also negated "friendly" psychic powers, so they'd pretty much cancel themselves out. This idea was also continued in the official rules for the miniature of the corrupted and psychically active Ephrael Stern, who was no longer able to use Acts of Faith at all.
While I agree with you that Acts of Faith aren't explicitly psychic in nature - though they are manifestly preternatural - I would point out that by your own very stringent views on what constitutes canon, old Shield of Faith 'never existed any more', and Ephrael Stern isn't fieldable, making her existence in new canon questionable.
That's an interesting and plausible way of looking at it. I've always nursed the suspicion that the Sisters, without realising the similarity, are basically doing sorcery - beseeching the Emperor by their acts of faith and summoning 'daemons of law' as living saints. I also like the notion that a psyker, who ultimately knows that he can perform, for want of a better word, 'miracles' by his own strength of will, simply can't have that kind of naive faith in something external.
I am, of course, probably not merely wrong but heretically so.
I'm sure she's strong for a woman. One might at Strength 3.
Please remember that 40k stats are abstract at best.
I doubt pulse rifles are actually stronger than bolters its just that the effect of shooting is more devistating.
In power armour it does increase. In dark heresy it does add +20 to strenght. Mostly from the servos enabling the person to move in it. SoB are not 'female space marines' either so aren't going to be 'roid filled feminazi nuns with guns.
The incident of SoB fighting GK in Ben Counters book is when an excommunicated Inquisitor uses them to protect him while he carries out his ritual. He claims to be a fully fledged Inquisitor, and that the GK are in fact CSM. Hence the attack, until the Cannoness realises what happened.
Mythal wrote:While I agree with you that Acts of Faith aren't explicitly psychic in nature - though they are manifestly preternatural - I would point out that by your own very stringent views on what constitutes canon, old Shield of Faith 'never existed any more', and Ephrael Stern isn't fieldable, making her existence in new canon questionable.
Ah, the rules for how the Shield of Faith works have changed - but by my personal definition of canon, fluff remains valid until contradicted. And that the Sisters sport protection against corruption is still mentioned in the new WD 'dex, even if the current rules do not incorporate it. As far as I'm concerned, this is just something that has now been pushed entirely into the background rather than being represented on the TT. Similar to how power armour should boost strength, but it doesn't change anything about the statlines, neither for Sisters nor Marines.
I can see why it may be deemed questionable, though. And I do hope for more clarity in future material (whenever it gets released). It'd just "fit" nicely. You still have genetic screenings in the Schola, anyways.
SylvanaSekNadin wrote:
Isn't it implied that the forces of the imperium despite being allies sometimes have objectives that run contrary to each other. Sisters and Grey Knights could end up duking it out if both are after the same thing, one because they believe it to be a holy artifact of the church and the other thinking its a demon posses artifact. In a rational universe they should stop and talk it out, but in 40K where there is only war, superstition and misinformation rules supreme and orders are absolute, anything is possible.
But that situation are rare to impossible. Most of the times they are fighting together, I only know about 1 incident they gun at each other. And when they saw who are they they shake hands and point their guns on heretics.
4oursword wrote:
Also, this.
Sisters are trained at the scholla Progenum along with commissars and storm troopers. They are thus trained as warriors since they are children while being put through the rigors of the scholla and indoctrinated into the imperial cult to the extreme. I would put them on at least the physical strength of any storm trooper. As has also been noted they are made much stronger by their power armor. They should in theory have the same strength output as a space marine, but without the interface for the power armor that space marines have they are slower and effectively weaker.
I imagine that they are trained to the limits of what Human body can take. They would be very good in close combat and highly durable. Add a power armor to this who beside protection gives a little increase in strength of it's owner and you get the picture. They only lack genetic alterations to be equal to Astartes, but being females that is impossible to them.
On a side note, why the hell do orks only have 3 strength? Have you looked at them? Their arms are as thick as a space marine in their armor.
Take 30 boys in 1 squad, everyone of them can attack 4 times. 30x4 = 120 attacks in melee. And that is death even for Terminators.
He's not saying attacks, but stength. And I have to agree, Boyz are on equal terms with SM's in terms of physical strength. A nob would be beyond that.
The Emperor nearly got killed by a Warboss for a reason.
Indeed, the reason Orks have lower strength than marines in tabletop is balance. Remember, even Marines used to be T3, until they decided that they needed to differentiate them more from humans.
I'm not sure that a normal boy would be as strong as a space marine. Once a nob it would be as strong IMO, and after a few battles would become stronger.
Nicholas wrote:I'm not sure that a normal boy would be as strong as a space marine. Once a nob it would be as strong IMO, and after a few battles would become stronger.
Nobs are most assuredly stronger than Marines.
Yes, I know, video game, but look at the nobs in Space Marine-- they can utterly manhandle a 2nd company captain and, unless you play very skillfully, you will die very, very quickly to one. This is pretty accurate in the lore. Marines don't win against Nobs through raw strength, they win through skill, speed, and ingenuity.
Nicholas wrote:I'm not sure that a normal boy would be as strong as a space marine. Once a nob it would be as strong IMO, and after a few battles would become stronger.
Nobs are most assuredly stronger than Marines.
Yes, I know, video game, but look at the nobs in Space Marine-- they can utterly manhandle a 2nd company captain and, unless you play very skillfully, you will die very, very quickly to one. This is pretty accurate in the lore. Marines don't win against Nobs through raw strength, they win through skill, speed, and ingenuity.
Yes, but in fluff it would vary more. When is the point a boy becomes a nob? I always considered that once it became as strong as a marine it was considered a Nob. Then after the next battle it would still be a nob, but stronger than a marine.
Average Ork Boy isn't as physically strong as a Space Marine, especially with Power Armor. They're even smaller then Space Marines. Nob is an entirely different story.
From all the reading i've done ( pretty much every BL book in last 5 years). I can conclude that any ork with less physical strength then a SM would be someones bitch.
The big point here is, Ork's have brute strenght, that almost all they have in straight up combat. No martial abilty beyond smash it.
The avarage orks speed in combat would be about the same as a Guardsmen, thought by the time they become a nob, pre combat experience will have honed their skills. Not to mention their strength as well. That's why a single nob can beatface almost any single normal marine.
The biggest difference between a SM and a boy is speed, experience and training. Not strength. And offcourse power armor. Though in fluff, an Ork's massive strength has proved to balance the odds with that protection by quite a bit.
It's not without reason that your avarage choppa is about as sharp as a butter knife, they drive it through you with pure muscle power.
Soladrin wrote:The big point here is, Ork's have brute strenght, that almost all they have in straight up combat. No martial abilty beyond smash it.
Actually that contradicts the lore. Orks instinctively understand combat, and are brutally skilled at it. This is why their WS is equal to a Marine's-- they're very good at close combat fighting. Naturally, the d6 system leaves much to be desired and means that Orks could be on the low end of the WS4 category while marines are on the medium end (and veteran marines are on the high end, and so on), but the fact remains, Orks definitely have more martial ability than "smash it".
They are genetically designed supersoldiers, that make the design of Space Marines look almost amateurish.
But I would agree in some aspects-- an Ork's combat skill is pure instinct and improvisation, it's not something trained into them (except for stormboyz obviously). A Space Marine's skill is trained into them, as well as inserted into their mind through hypnotherapy so it's also instinctual.
Thing is, an Ork's instinctual combat skill really is so great that, were they both outside of power armor, an Ork and the average Marine would have a pretty good sparring match. The power armor and superior weapon (chainsword instead of a basic choppa) as well as a Marine's inherent discipline and faster speed outside of an adrenaline rush on the side of the Ork rather makes the Marine capable of of beating many Orks through precise application of force, as you noted.
Brother Coa wrote:Nor it was ever proved that Chaos Gods have any true power, nor that C'Tan are all so powerful and all, or that Necrons are numberless, or that Tyranids have some kind of "main fleet" going toward the galaxy...
Most things in 40k are just rumors, so we must belive it blindly since we have no proff for any of it.
The second two aren't proven, and you won't find me claiming that either are true, not in the context you've given. The first two are proven true, very much so. When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees. When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.
Melissia wrote:Nobs are most assuredly stronger than Marines.
Yes, I know, video game, but look at the nobs in Space Marine-- they can utterly manhandle a 2nd company captain and, unless you play very skillfully, you will die very, very quickly to one. This is pretty accurate in the lore. Marines don't win against Nobs through raw strength, they win through skill, speed, and ingenuity.
Well, personally, I believe that a Boy is almost as strong as a Marine, whereas a Nob is stronger, but not enough to warrant the S5.
Fulgrim actually states that the average Ork is almost as physically powerful as a Marine, and mentions a Nob as being more-so.
That's where Furious Charge comes in, a mob of Boyz building up momentum, striding towards the enemy, when that mob hits the Marines, some Marines are going to get toppled. But in stand-up combat, the Marine is larger, quicker, and a bit stronger, so his blows will carry more force. The Boy is still tough to put down though, their dense bones and musculature along with lack of vitals meaning they can take much more than a human, in the fluff las-rounds need a head-shot to reliably bring down a Boy.
So yeah, Ork Boyz are strong, but not enough to warrant S4, whereas a Nob is, and is stronger than the Marine.
Are we talking physical strength or just plain strength as a warrior? They are most certainly skilled. I would think most can put up a decent match with a Marine in a sparring session. (if the Marine doesn't apply force behind his blows) For physical strength, I imagine they are in between Guardsman and Space Marine. That is assuming they're in PA. If not, I would think they have the strength of any healthy female who regularly exercises.
As for Orks, they rely on raw strength and (as stated by Melissia) the instinct for violence they were born with. Put in a sparring match with a Marine, I can see the Ork holding out for a ten or twenty seconds....maybe more. But your common Ork is not as knowledgable as a Space Marine. He doesn't rely on speed, only strength, growing up in Ork society, he has only learned that strength matters most, therefore he doesn't practice speed. He does not bother to locate organs, he only knows limbs. He does not monitor the way an enemy is moving, he just wants to bleed the target. He doesn't realize that bones hold someones body in a certain way, and that these can be manipulated to do harm. He doesn't know all this, but I'm willing to bet the Marine does.
SoB, as any force of the Imperium, could be manipulated into fighting the GKs like happened in the GK omnibus. It would be nearly impossable for GKs to be fooled, although it could happen.
Grey Templar wrote:as for why SoB would fight GKs:
SoB, as any force of the Imperium, could be manipulated into fighting the GKs like happened in the GK omnibus. It would be nearly impossable for GKs to be fooled, although it could happen.
Void__Dragon wrote:When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees.
And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.
Void__Dragon wrote:When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.
That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.
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Grey Templar wrote:
SoB could also become corrupted.
You do know only 1 of them ever fall to Chaos, just one.
BL novel stuff is ... going against official fluff from time to time.
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Jackster wrote:
So can non-purifier GK theoretically.
Void__Dragon wrote:When the Chaos Gods banded together, the Imperium was brought to its knees.
And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.
That wasn't why they fought. They don't care about the Material universe, 99.9% of their attentions are concentrated on playing the Great Game. There's plenty of proof of their power. Their servants? Boosted purely by Daemonic energy, they're able to lay waste to entire armies. Their scheming nearly killed the Emperor and created the hell hole that is the Imperium today. The birth cries of the weakest nearly obliterated an entire race and created the Eye of Terror. There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.
Void__Dragon wrote:When the C'tan warred, entire star systems disappeared.
That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.
Which, until it comes around if it even does, is not true so therefore irrelevant. If Mat Ward does screw up the Necrons like so many people seem to believe already, then you can talk about it. Until them, C'tan are stupidly powerful beings capable of draining stars of energy. They boosted the Necrons to the point where they nearly destroyed the Old Ones. All that aside, what point are you trying to make? That these beings aren't powerful? Or is it yet again another ridiculous fanboy argument about how none of this can be true because it's all legends from untrustworthy aliens? I find the latter to be mildly hypocritical. Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.
Grey Templar wrote: SoB could also become corrupted.
You do know only 1 of them ever fall to Chaos, just one. BL novel stuff is ... going against official fluff from time to time.
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.
iproxtaco wrote:There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.
As yet, this has never been retconned by studio material:
"A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos."
The events in Codex: Grey Knights, as people are at pains to point out, were nothing to do with chaotic corruption and were, instead, viral in nature - which was why the Grey Knights themselves actively required protection from the effects.
Which is wrong on their part. It was Daemonic power sourced from an enraged Bloodthirster. Not viral, in the sense of a biological disease, it was Chaos corruption. Unless there's more to it of course.
Miriael Sabathiel fell to the lure of chaos, she 'fell' voluntarily. These Sisters were forcibly corrupted, not into servants or Chaos champions, but displayed effects of the taint, which was to attack in a mindless rage or to explode in a shower of gore.
iproxtaco wrote:
There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.
My God beats your God?
Surely those chaos Gods wouldn't fictionally "exist" without a God creating Man to imagine these "Gods".
So NO, we just have to accept what the author makes these chaos "gods" in power and validity in 40k.
The deification of these creatures of the empyrean is questionable as their power is restricted to their own realm, the warp.
iproxtaco wrote:
There's a reason they're called Gods, and it's more than them jsut being symbolic and anonymous effigies. The Christian God is God to them, because they believe he is one, through his acts he has apparently proved this. It's no different with Chaos, we just KNOW they exist and are terribly powerful.
My God beats your God?
Surely those chaos Gods wouldn't fictionally "exist" without a God creating Man to imagine these "Gods".
So NO, we just have to accept what the author makes these chaos "gods" in power and validity in 40k.
The deification of these creatures of the empyrean is questionable as their power is restricted to their own realm, the warp.
Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.
No, not at all, you're either trolling or plain misinterpreting something that's quite plain and simple. I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.
Ohhh boy - that's so off-topic I'm not touching it with a barge pole, and I'm going to hide before all the Grey Knight fanboys crawl out of the woodwork at the mere intimation that they actually need protection from Daemonic influence.
On off-topic, though, I don't see why people keep coming back to this - except, perhaps, mean-spiritedness. It really is, after all the gutting of Sisters canon in the new Codex, the only 'cool' thing left in their fluff - out of countless thousands of members over five thousand years, only one has ever willingly given themselves over to Chaos. I suppose people really do want to make sure our army can't have nice things - even if they have nothing whatsoever to do with tabletop game balance.
On topic, I could see an argument for them being less physically strong than a storm trooper outside of their power armour, moreso within it.
iproxtaco wrote:
Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.
I am bound to post no he don't, am I?
iproxtaco wrote:
I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.
No, I think your idea to apply real life is bad.
The pantheon your aiming at has nothing in common with the religion used in your example. So please either use a comparable belief system
or keep real life out of it. Would prefer 40k terms tough, maybe eldar or necron Gods, ork gods, etc.
iproxtaco wrote:
Yes, that's definitely the line I was choosing there, my God beats your God.
I am bound to post no he don't, am I?
Meh.
iproxtaco wrote:
I really hope though that you aren't implying that this has anything to do with real life.
No, I think your idea to apply real life is bad.
The pantheon your aiming at has nothing in common with the religion used in your example. So please either use a comparable belief system
or keep real life out of it. Would prefer 40k terms tough, maybe eldar or necron Gods, ork gods, etc.
I'm not applying real life at all, bar a comparison. Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.
Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength. End of discussion.
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iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.
Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."
iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.
The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.
The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.
Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.
iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.
The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.
The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.
Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.
That's right. If people here can say: "Emperor don't have any power at all" then I can say "Chaos Gods or C'Tan don't have any power at all either". Since there is no proof of any of their power, just claims of their servants. And some rather "unususal abilities" of theirs ( Act's of Faith, Phase Shift, Warp Portals etc... ).
Listen to Coa, for I am the messiah of logic and science
iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.
Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
End of discussion.
So the Horus Heresy and the Eye of Terror and the power of their servants are all legends and hearsay? The defeat of the Old Ones too? The War in Heaven? They're all things we know happened as the reader. The Emperor created the Imperium, which is remarkable too, is that hearsay and legend?
iproxtaco wrote:
There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.
Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."
End of discussion.
Irrelevant to my quote as I'm not denying it happened at all. Nothing is official and everything is official. Games Workshop, you know, that company that controls the setting we're talking about, hasn't said officially that Black Library and other sources that aren't created by the Studio, are not canon. Until then, GW has no canon really.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
1hadhq wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.
The Tau don't know a whole lot about Chaos, if they know anything at all.
The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.
The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).
Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.
I'm not sure what you mean. Sister's can achieve things through their faith, although it's arguable whether its the Emperor's intervention or not. They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:
Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them.
Tau also deem Gods non-existant.
The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past.
They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.
The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own.
Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.
Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks?
So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.
That's right. If people here can say: "Emperor don't have any power at all" then I can say "Chaos Gods or C'Tan don't have any power at all either". Since there is no proof of any of their power, just claims of their servants. And some rather "unususal abilities" of theirs ( Act's of Faith, Phase Shift, Warp Portals etc... ).
When do people ever say that? It's quite clear that the Emperor is one of the most powerful beings in the setting, he stops the majority of Daemons from entering from the Warp using only the power of his mind, there's evidence.
There's proof alright. Shouldn't have to repeat though. The Horus Heresy, the Eye of Terror, the power of their servants, all in the case of Chaos. The War in Heaven, their ability to consume the energy of entire stars, and the fact that the Nightbringer imprinted an image itself into every being bar Orkz.
Listen to Coa, for I am the messiah of logic and science
iproxtaco wrote:Nearly everything about the Emperor's power is legend and hearsay as well.
Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength. End of discussion.
So the Horus Heresy and the Eye of Terror and the power of their servants are all legends and hearsay? The defeat of the Old Ones too? The War in Heaven? They're all things we know happened as the reader. The Emperor created the Imperium, which is remarkable too, is that hearsay and legend?
iproxtaco wrote: There is no official fluff. It's all jumbled into a big mess of legends and myths until GW actually says that BL isn't or is canon.
Codex: Sisters of Battle 3'rd edition: ""A sign of the Sisters strength is the fact that in their entire history only a single sister, Miriael Sabathiel, has fallen to the lure of Chaos. How Miriael fell is unknown, only that she was turned from the Emperor's light to Slaanesh worship, and now serves as one of the Prince of Chaos' greatest warriors."
End of discussion.
Irrelevant to my quote as I'm not denying it happened at all. Nothing is official and everything is official. Games Workshop, you know, that company that controls the setting we're talking about, hasn't said officially that Black Library and other sources that aren't created by the Studio, are not canon. Until then, GW has no canon really.
1hadhq wrote:
iproxtaco wrote: Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them. Tau also deem Gods non-existant.
The Tau don't know a whole lot about Chaos, if they know anything at all.
The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past. They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.
The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own. Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).
Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks? So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.
I'm not sure what you mean. Sister's can achieve things through their faith, although it's arguable whether its the Emperor's intervention or not. They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.
Brother Coa wrote:
1hadhq wrote:
iproxtaco wrote: Coa said they aren't 'real' Gods. How are they any different to the Christian God? They believe 'he' exists, so to them, he does. 'He's' a God, in real life. In 40k, the difference is that we know as the omnipresent reader that these great powers exist, they're deemed as Gods by the setting.
The problem underlined...its ok if he decides to disbelieve in the status of them. Tau also deem Gods non-existant.
The chaos Gods are, like most fantasy beeings, based on the pantheons of the past. They can die. They exist, if they feed. They compete for power.
The difference is, chaos can't do gak in the material realm on their own. Can't enter if not called upon. Can't do much outside the warp.
Look at the faith of the sisters. Does it achieve something? Without psykers in their ranks? So disbelief in chaos isn't a drawback.
That's right. If people here can say: "Emperor don't have any power at all" then I can say "Chaos Gods or C'Tan don't have any power at all either". Since there is no proof of any of their power, just claims of their servants. And some rather "unususal abilities" of theirs ( Act's of Faith, Phase Shift, Warp Portals etc... ).
When do people ever say that? It's quite clear that the Emperor is one of the most powerful beings in the setting, he stops the majority of Daemons from entering from the Warp using only the power of his mind, there's evidence. There's proof alright. Shouldn't have to repeat though. The Horus Heresy, the Eye of Terror, the power of their servants, all in the case of Chaos. The War in Heaven, their ability to consume the energy of entire stars, and the fact that the Nightbringer imprinted an image itself into every being bar Orkz.
Listen to Coa, for I am the messiah of logic and science
Thank god that's a joke. Am I a traitor to my race for believing that Chaos is this powerful?
iproxtaco wrote:
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).
Heresy?
You think its an achievement to start a heresy? There was more than one civil war of the course of 40 millenia.
Now, I see you admit it was the minions of these self proclaimed Gods that did the job and the Gods just watched them die.
Am I right its neccessary to delegate the work to "servants"? If so, any God able to influence both realms without reliance on willing servants or able to enter both realms is more of a "true" God than the chaos "Gods".
iproxtaco wrote:They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.
I'd say they wouldn't hold back if they could relief the galaxy of them. And we know "Gods" can die. ( at least, elven ones ).
Brother Coa wrote:Listen to Coa, for I am the messiah of logic and science
Depends...
Melissia wrote:That doesn't mean that they call them "chaos gods" or believe them to actually be gods, which I think is more the point.
Exactly. A galaxy filled with life and some minority likes to adress their masters from the empyrean as Gods.
4oursword wrote:"Real" 40k: They wouldn't.
Ward-ty k: Anyone can fight anyone, Grey Knights can fly in their mystical baby harnesses and will kill anything because THE EMPRAH SEZ SO!!!
Isn't it implied that the forces of the imperium despite being allies sometimes have objectives that run contrary to each other. Sisters and Grey Knights could end up duking it out if both are after the same thing, one because they believe it to be a holy artifact of the church and the other thinking its a demon posses artifact. In a rational universe they should stop and talk it out, but in 40K where there is only war, superstition and misinformation rules supreme and orders are absolute, anything is possible.
4oursword wrote:
On topic: Stormtrooper strength.
Also, this.
Sisters are trained at the scholla Progenum along with commissars and storm troopers. They are thus trained as warriors since they are children while being put through the rigors of the scholla and indoctrinated into the imperial cult to the extreme. I would put them on at least the physical strength of any storm trooper. As has also been noted they are made much stronger by their power armor. They should in theory have the same strength output as a space marine, but without the interface for the power armor that space marines have they are slower and effectively weaker.
on a side note, why the hell do orks only have 3 strength? Have you looked at them? Their arms are as thick as a space marine in their armor.
I agree entirely. I didn't think of the Contrasting Objectives, but that is very logical indeed.
Orks should be stronger, I mean, a pansy Guardsman is as strong as a beer-fuelled, fungus-spawned fighting machine? That'll work.
iproxtaco wrote:
Not directly. They're able to manipulate the course of the setting monumentally through their servants. I don't think you need to ask for evidence (Pssst, the Horus Heresy).
Heresy?
You think its an achievement to start a heresy? There was more than one civil war of the course of 40 millenia.
Now, I see you admit it was the minions of these self proclaimed Gods that did the job and the Gods just watched them die.
Am I right its neccessary to delegate the work to "servants"? If so, any God able to influence both realms without reliance on willing servants or able to enter both realms is more of a "true" God than the chaos "Gods".
I absolutely think its an achievement. It wasn't any old rebellion, it was the Horus Heresy. You know, that thing where half of the Imperium revolted and joined what was thought to be the Emperor's most loyal servant, who then went on to nearly kill the Emperor and turn it into the hell-hole it is currently.
Yes, servants, who happen to be direct manifestations of their will. I mean literally, Daemons are part of Chaos Gods. There's more to it than simply not being able to affect the material realm. They sucked the Primarch's pods through a warp portal after all. It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances, the Horus Heresy being the most obvious, the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of. He threw Kairos Fateweaver into it.
iproxtaco wrote:They recognize that the Chaos Gods exist, but despise them.
I'd say they wouldn't hold back if they could relief the galaxy of them. And we know "Gods" can die. ( at least, elven ones ).
iproxtaco wrote:
It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of.
Not giving a damn could switch off their favourite "tv-show" easily, let the C'tan do their thing and have it discontinued...
Still not sure where you get the ratio of attention spent on the material realm vs the warp from. Plus, "new" WD fluff grants sisters victories against chaos be it red corsairs or demon.
Just waiting when they realize as per the "new" fluff the number of ordos is raised to 9...
Brother Coa wrote:And again - they lost battle for the matterium. There is no real proof of their power except claims of Chaos worshipers. But that is just me claiming the power of Jesus to Muslim - it's no proof. True, they can do some pretty nasty things, but they are just beings hungry for power, not even true Gods.
That is all part of Eldar legends, and they are known for their lies and betrayal - hard proof for a race with no sense of honor. Aside from legends and rumors that was never proven, and according to rumors from new codex C'Tan are not gods - they are slaves to Necrons.
1. Hyuck. No. Their mortal followers lost the battle for the Materium, the Chaos Gods got what they want, the Emperor out of the picture. The Horus Heresy was a victory for Chaos.
And there is proof. A manifestation of their power can warp a world beyond recognition, Khorne himself directly intervened once on a blooming Daemon world, tearing a hole in reality and raining fire and gore from the skies. This wasn't a legend, this objectively happened, as we and the reader know. Now, their power in the Materium is limited, but it is factual that their power in the Empyrean is enormous.
2. I guess I must have imagined it when the Necron codex directly stated that a starship imbued with a measure of the Nightbringer's power could destroy entire star systems on a whim. I guess I must have imagined it when it was said that the Nightbringer wiped out entire regions of space to satiate its hunger. I guess I must have imagined it when the codex directly states that when the C'tan warred planets were razed, stars extinguished, and entire solar systems were engulfed by black holes. I guess I must have imagined all the countless signs in the Necron codex and some Black Library works that the C'tan devoured stars.
Only I didn't imagine this, since unlike you I read the Necron codex. None of this is presented as legend. All is presented as facts that we, the reader, are privilege to.
And until Ward's rumored abomination comes out, the C'tan are still gods.
Brother Coa wrote:Just like Chaos Gods powers and C'Tan strength.
What is your deal?
I never denied that the Emperor is powerful, that's one of the most evident facts of the setting.
Only that it's not proven that the Acts of Faith emanate from him, only that it's what they believe.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Only I didn't imagine this, since unlike you I read the Necron codex. None of this is presented as legend. All is presented as facts that we, the reader, are privilege to.
I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:
And until Ward's rumored abomination comes out, the C'tan are still gods.
With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.
Brother Coa wrote:
What is your deal?
I never denied that the Emperor is powerful, that's one of the most evident facts of the setting.
Only that it's not proven that the Acts of Faith emanate from him, only that it's what they believe.
My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then?
It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".
In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it.
Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).
SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?
Brother Coa wrote:I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:
You don't have good reading comprehension then, or you're lying. I suspect the latter. If did read it though and comprehended it then you're just in denial. Admit you were wrong.
Brother Coa wrote:With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.
*Which
Brother Coa wrote:My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then?
It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".
In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it.
Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).
SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?
Funny, I didn't say that. I said "It's not proven."
Unlike the fact that Chaos Cultists are granted powers by the Gods. That is proven, not just belief.
The Emperor's influence itself is not proven. He could just be dead. :3
Funny, since Acts of Faith, whatever their origin, are inherently supernatural. It could easily be a boon from Chaos granted as a joke. :3
I'm not denying that the Emperor could grant then, only saying that it's not definite that he does.
Brother Coa wrote:I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:
You don't have good reading comprehension then, or you're lying. I suspect the latter. If did read it though and comprehended it then you're just in denial. Admit you were wrong.
I did read it. And I don't believe Necron fluff. Those are all myth and legends from time that was xxxxxxxxxx eons ago. To me, Necons are bunch of brain dead zombies that we put down the moment they woke up ( well except Damnos and Sanctuary 101 ).
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.
*Which
I type fast, I would love to see you trying to type Serbian
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then? It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".
In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it. Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).
SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?
Funny, I didn't say that. I said "It's not proven." Witch is the same thing.
Unlike the fact that Chaos Cultists are granted powers by the Gods. That is proven, not just belief.
The Emperor's influence itself is not proven. He could just be dead. :3
Funny, since Acts of Faith, whatever their origin, are inherently supernatural. It could easily be a boon from Chaos granted as a joke. :3
I'm not denying that the Emperor could grant then, only saying that it's not definite that he does.
Gawsh, stop being so serious guy.
Stop denying the Emperor's true power brain dead zombie .
iproxtaco wrote: It's more to do with the fact that bar a few unique instances the Chaos Gods don't give a damn about the material realm. They enjoy watching their servants, mortal and Daemonic, wreaking havoc amongst the mortal races, but most of their time is dedicated to playing the Great Game, or the events in the Warp. Tzeentch spends a great deal of time staring into some portal in the Impossible Fortress which I can't remember the name of.
Not giving a damn could switch off their favourite "tv-show" easily, let the C'tan do their thing and have it discontinued...
Still not sure where you get the ratio of attention spent on the material realm vs the warp from. Plus, "new" WD fluff grants sisters victories against chaos be it red corsairs or demon. Just waiting when they realize as per the "new" fluff the number of ordos is raised to 9...
The current Chaos Daemons codex. They're far more concerned with vying for supremacy than they are about the material realm. Even the Horus Heresy deserved but an instant. I'll get my codex out if need be, but until then read the Lexicanum entry, it's sums it up pretty well.
Lexicanum - http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Great_Game wrote:The Great Game is the constant struggle for dominance between the Chaos Gods. The Warp is not only home to the Gods, but it is also their battlefield. No god can ever win the Great Game, for if all other Warp Powers were obliterated, the Warp would become a still, unmoving mass and Chaos would no longer exist. So it is an Eternal Conflict. The Full attention of the God is concentrated on the Great Game, a fraction of their attention will very rarely be fixed on the mortal realm but only for an instant as the Great game is more important. The Chaos Gods will also unite rarely roughly every few thousand years, if there is need to do so (to thwart a threat or to take advantage of an occurrence). The rise of the Emperor was such a time, the Warp Gods engineered the wars of the Horus Heresy to bring about his downfall, distracting them for an instant from the Great Game. The Great Conflict which is played out amongst the gods is also mirrored by their followers and worshipers in the material realm. This is what the Daemon-Primarchs and other Great Chaos Champions are occupied with, fighting for the supremacy of their god, with untold power at their fingertips.
Source - Codex: Chaos Daemons
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Brother Coa wrote:
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:I read it, and if you don't mind - it's all legends and rumors to me. And as you said:
You don't have good reading comprehension then, or you're lying. I suspect the latter. If did read it though and comprehended it then you're just in denial. Admit you were wrong.
I did read it. And I don't believe Necron fluff. Those are all myth and legends from time that was xxxxxxxxxx eons ago. To me, Necons are bunch of brain dead zombies that we put down the moment they woke up ( well except Damnos and Sanctuary 101 ).
It's knowledge granted to us as the reader. It's not myth and legend re-told by some random Eldar. You're denying it for the sake of the argument basically.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:With means that old fluff from 3'rd edition will not be considered cannon anymore.
*Which
I type fast, I would love to see you trying to type Serbian
It'd probably be the same as you typing in English.
Void__Dragon wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:My deal is that you said "Act's of Faith are not supported by the Emperor". They from who are they comming from then? It's like saying: "Chaos servants powers don't come from Choas Gods".
In Warhammer 40k it is simple logic - to who you swear your loyalty/soul/whatever... you get powers and influence from it. And in return you serve/pray/kill for it. Chaos Servants prey/kill for Chaos Gods and they give them their powers. Emperor's servants pray/kill for the Emperor and he gives them his powers ti use in battle ( you said that Emperor is powerful ). Necrons kill/harvest souls for C'Tan and they give them their manifestation to use in battle ( well at least until the next codex ).
SoB don't have psykers, super-natural units etc... They only pray in battle and they got Act's of Faith to use because of it. From who are they coming if not from the Emperor himself?
Funny, I didn't say that. I said "It's not proven." Witch is the same thing.
Unlike the fact that Chaos Cultists are granted powers by the Gods. That is proven, not just belief.
The Emperor's influence itself is not proven. He could just be dead. :3
Funny, since Acts of Faith, whatever their origin, are inherently supernatural. It could easily be a boon from Chaos granted as a joke. :3
I'm not denying that the Emperor could grant then, only saying that it's not definite that he does.
Gawsh, stop being so serious guy.
Stop denying the Emperor's true power brain dead zombie .
It's not the same. He said it hadn't been proven, not that it definitely isn't possible.
iproxtaco wrote:
It's knowledge granted to us as the reader. It's not myth and legend re-told by some random Eldar. You're denying it for the sake of the argument basically.
No. It is simply what i believe in. Void Dragon and you don't believe in Emperor's true power and that is ok, I am not attacking you because of that dough...
It'd probably be the same as you typing in English.
Hey hey hey, I am not that bad. I just miss a letter of two because I type Chaotic
It's not the same. He said it hadn't been proven, not that it definitely isn't possible.
And he strongly implemented he doesn't believe in it while failing to give some explanation from were those powers came from.
And it is even stated in fluff that Act's of Faith are Emperor's blessings in battle. Now, there is no proof for that other than words, same as for other factions.
Brother Coa wrote:I did read it. And I don't believe Necron fluff. Those are all myth and legends from time that was xxxxxxxxxx eons ago. To me, Necons are bunch of brain dead zombies that we put down the moment they woke up ( well except Damnos and Sanctuary 101 ).
Frankly, I should have stopped reading your post the moment you said "And I don't believe Necron fluff," since at a certain point you cross a threshold where it is obvious you're not in denial so much as you are trolling, and you are reaching close to that threshold.
Narratively, much of the Necron fluff is presented as fact that we, the reader, are privilege too. Not all is, granted, but what I have mentioned is stated objectively.
Brother Coa wrote:I type fast, I would love to see you trying to type Serbian
Don't speak the language.
Brother Coa wrote: Witch is the same thing.
No, it's not. Just because I say it's not proven doesn't mean I say it's definitely not true.
And IIRC, it states that the Ecclesiary believes that the Acts of Faith are manifestations of the Emperor's power, not that they objectively are, though, I have neither the 3e Witchhunters codex or the WD update on me to check.
Brother Coa wrote:Stop denying the Emperor's true power brain dead zombie .
Even if Acts of Faith do not come from the Emperor, that's not so much a strike against his power as it is the Sisters being deluded. Assuming that they do not. I'm just saying.
Also, just saying, I don't know if you are joking or not, but referring to people with terms such as "brain dead zombie" whenever you speak to them doesn't leave a particularly good impression.
Oh, and implemented and implied are not synonyms. Come on man, I've pointed this out to you before. I have implemented nothing.
Brother Coa wrote:I did read it. And I don't believe Necron fluff. Those are all myth and legends from time that was xxxxxxxxxx eons ago. To me, Necons are bunch of brain dead zombies that we put down the moment they woke up ( well except Damnos and Sanctuary 101 ).
Frankly, I should have stopped reading your post the moment you said "And I don't believe Necron fluff," since at a certain point you cross a threshold where it is obvious you're not in denial so much as you are trolling, and you are reaching close to that threshold.
I am not Trolling, it's all alien propaganda to me. To me there is only Imperial Truth.
Don't speak the language.
It is rude to attack people who do not know 100% English you know...
Even if Acts of Faith do not come from the Emperor, that's not so much a strike against his power as it is the Sisters being deluded. Assuming that they do not. I'm just saying.
Also, just saying, I don't know if you are joking or not, but referring to people with terms such as "brain dead zombie" whenever you speak to them doesn't leave a particularly good impression.
Oh, and implemented and implied are not synonyms. Come on man, I've pointed this out to you before. I have implemented nothing.
Oh, sorry I forgot you are Necon fanboy. So you are space brain dead zombie ( what Necrons essentially are ).
GamzaTheChaos wrote:hello! I was reading the Grey Knights Omnibus and the fight that took place between the grey knights and sisters was pretty crazy.
but there were a few moments when their physical strength seem far above any normal human.
and so I ask being ignorant on any sisters of battle fluff. how physically strong are they? they seem much stronger then guardsmen.
I understand they have power armor but do they have implants that increase strength as well?
I mean it must take a lot to pummel a grey knight backward >.>
Sorry that your original question got totally derailed by a discussion completely irrelevant to it.
I would like to add, for a bit of clarification, that while a SOB has the strength and musculature common to highly trained, physically active warriors, their power armor is not just a multiplier of that strength.
First, power armor for unenhanced humans must necessarily be smaller than that of Astartes. Thus, mechanically, it is probably less able to augment their strength, just as smaller motors and pistons are able to exert less force than larger motors and pistons of the same quality.
Second, power armor is heavy. A non-insubstantial amount of that 'augmented strength' goes to allowing the user to move normally in armor. Even if the SOB has her strength increased substantially by the power armor, she's going to be using a lot of that to carry around the armor itself. A weightlifter carrying around 50 pounds of gear isn't going to lift as much weight as a weightlifter clad only in sweat pants.
On the other hand, the mass of that power armor does have some benefits. A SOB hitting you is connecting with substantially more mass than a normal guardsman or even Stormtrooper. Force is intimately connected to mass, so the SOB may well be able to deck a Space Marine.
Finally, of course, the TT caveat. Strength 3 covers a wide variety of figures in the game. SOB, IG, Eldar, Dark Eldar, many Tyranids, most Orks, all clock in at Strength 3. The things that do qualify for S4 tend to have mechanical strength augmentation (Necrons, SM, CSM) or are somewhere between big (Ork Nobs) and huge (some Tyranids). The TTG doesn't attempt to quantify the very real differences between, say, Imperial Navy Fleet Envoy strength and Ork Boy strength. Heck, Terminators are S4 even though they are much bigger and bulkier than regular Space Marines, and are supposed to be in armor which is much more powerfully augmented.
- Off-topic video removed. While I assume you were aiming for humour, comparing trained soldiers to some scrawny individual who clearly has no weapons training serves no purpose other than to get people riled. - insaniak
And IIRC, it states that the Ecclesiary believes that the Acts of Faith are manifestations of the Emperor's power, not that they objectively are, though, I have neither the 3e Witchhunters codex or the WD update on me to check.
It says this in the same omnipotent narration that all codex's use. The following is under "rules" not fluff. So, there is no in-universe bias to the following.
WH Codex pg. 18
"Acts of Faith are a manifestations of the Emperor's divine purpose; small miracles that can turn the tide of battle if used in the correct combination at just the right moment"
"Guided by the will of the Emperor Himself, the shots and blows of the faithful shatter their enemies armor with contemptuous ease."
The power comes from the Emperor, because they worship him, and most likely due to what ever pact he made with Saint Dominica during the Age of Apostasy. The current WD couches Act of Faith in the same terms. The powers have always come from the Emperor, and has never been in question. Its never even implies that the Faith was due to latent psychic powers. Andy Hoare even said as much in the designer notes for the WH codex. I don't where this supposed ambiguity is coming from.
And IIRC, it states that the Ecclesiary believes that the Acts of Faith are manifestations of the Emperor's power, not that they objectively are, though, I have neither the 3e Witchhunters codex or the WD update on me to check.
It says this in the same omnipotent narration that all codex's use. The following is under "rules" not fluff. So, there is no in-universe bias to the following.
WH Codex pg. 18
"Acts of Faith are a manifestations of the Emperor's divine purpose; small miracles that can turn the tide of battle if used in the correct combination at just the right moment"
"Guided by the will of the Emperor Himself, the shots and blows of the faithful shatter their enemies armor with contemptuous ease."
The power comes from the Emperor, because they worship him, and most likely due to what ever pact he made with Saint Dominica during the Age of Apostasy. The current WD couches Act of Faith in the same terms. The powers have always come from the Emperor, and has never been in question. Its never even implies that the Faith was due to latent psychic powers. Andy Hoare even said as much in the designer notes for the WH codex. I don't were this supposed ambiguity is coming from.
This means I was right and Void__Dragon was wrong.
The power armour grants the sister wearing it the strenght to probably knock off the jaw-bone of an normal human, but mainly to help the sister manouver in the battlefield and handle heavy equipment. If it would be Guardsmen vs Sister, the sister would win.
The important thing is the OP was curious due to sisters taking on Grey Knights and the sisters actually beating the Knights back in close combat. The simple point to highlight is that the sisters do NOT have the physical strength to do this naturally and that power armor would not bridge the gap between elite marines in their own better power armor and very fit women in power armor. Simply, the women are capable of being enhanced by blessings derived from their pious faith in the emperor.
aka most of this thread is irrelevant.
GamzaTheChaos wrote:hello! I was reading the Grey Knights Omnibus and the fight that took place between the grey knights and sisters was pretty crazy.
but there were a few moments when their physical strength seem far above any normal human.
and so I ask being ignorant on any sisters of battle fluff. how physically strong are they? they seem much stronger then guardsmen.
I understand they have power armor but do they have implants that increase strength as well?
I mean it must take a lot to pummel a grey knight backward >.>
OP's post.
Look at the last sentence. That is what I was referring to.
UrbanCowboy wrote: due to sisters taking on Grey Knights and the sisters actually beating the Knights back in close combat.
What Where did that happened?
He's referring too the GK omnibus, although the GKs weren't getting beaten back. it was more of a bloody grind that the Sisters had no hope of winning and the GKs couldn't afford to take part in because it would slow themdown.
Fortunantly,
Spoiler:
the Cannoness had actually fought alongside GKs before and stopped the fighting when she saw who they were fighting
All the sisters were killed in the end. valiantly dying to a women for their Emperor so the GKs can get through and stop the Daemon. Sisters really are GWs beatstick.
Brother Coa wrote:Thank the Emperor, I can't imagine what would happened if a special someone was writing that book...
What like Matt Ward? Pulease, forgetting that he writes gamebooks rather than novels for a second, the guy loves using those SoBs as his whipping bo... er, girl. In fact I've always seen the whole Bloodtide thing as some sort of petty revenge for that incident in Ben Counter's GK series. Funnily enough I've never seen any of the SoB fans that went ranting revenge after C:GK release mention the incident in the Grey Knight omnibus.
Greyish wrote:
What like Matt Ward? Pulease, forgetting that he writes gamebooks rather than novels for a second, the guy loves using those SoBs as his whipping bo... er, girl. In fact I've always seen the whole Bloodtide thing as some sort of petty revenge for that incident in Ben Counter's GK series. Funnily enough I've never seen any of the SoB fans that went ranting revenge after C:GK release mention the incident in the Grey Knight omnibus.
But that was ok because in a chaos of war many things happened ( like Guard firing on marine in few occasions ). Once the Sisters realized on who they are firing they rejoice and start fighting with them. In C:GK Grey Knight first kill all surviving Sisters, then they bath in their blood. All of that to avoid corruption? ( did I mentioned that Matt Ward said at the beginning of that codex that Grey Knight are in every way non-corruptible? )
Please, lets not derail the thread with more talk about the Bloodtide incident(which everyone is getting horribly wrong, bloodtide fluff gives a perfectly legitimate reason for blood wards for GKs)
Well, lexicanum says they can use the armour without any restrictions to their mobility and speed; implying the armours servos are good enough to do that. If I remember right on an advert for Space Marine Captain Titus weighs 700lbs in armour (might be wrong). Assuming he weighs 400lbs himself then the armour would be 300lbs. SOB armour probably half that. So Iam pretty sure a SOB could pick a commisar off the ground, but, a space marine is strong enough to smash his foot into the ground and have orks stagger from the shockwave. Thats what str 4 represents, same as a tyranid warrior which is a twelve foot monster.
Grey Templar wrote:Please, lets not derail the thread with more talk about the Bloodtide incident(which everyone is getting horribly wrong, bloodtide fluff gives a perfectly legitimate reason for blood wards for GKs)
The legitimacy of that bloodtide thing is irrelevant. What should truly enrage people is the fact that an author deliberately wrote that story while he could have written something different, like Sisters and Knights being allied instead for example. No, he simply did what pretty much every author seems to do: massacre sisters en masse to make their protagonists look awesome by contrast. Should we be thankful this time since the Sisters, beside being weak and easy to beat, are at least useful to something now?
Of course, no one likes to see his favourite faction being defeated, even less being humiliated or worse being literally slaughtered like cattle. While it wouldn't prevent internet arguments, I'm sure SoB players would have less reasons to complain about such things if their faction would be treated with more dignity in fluff and novels. In their own fluff, when the Sisters win it's often at great cost, which makes sense in a grimdark setting anyway. And it makes sense for SoB to remember their own losses since they are greatly inspired by saints and martyrs. But come on, this army is not just about martyrdom! Basic SoB fluff states that the faction is an elite army and an important part of the Imperium. Can we acknowledge that? Can we ask for a minimum of respect? At least from their own allies?
So yeah, stop trying to invalidate that bloodtide BS. The issue is that you paid good money for those figurines, you spent countless hours assembling and painting them, so you are entitled to feel good about your toy soldiers like every other GW clients do about theirs.
well, they arent the only ones getting slaughtered periodically, the only people in IoM that doesnt constantly get horribly massacred by their enemies or allies are Space Marines.
GW doesnt want to damage the image of their super-human posterboys, so regular human forces like IG and SoB would have to take it for the team most of the time.
Jackster wrote:well, they arent the only ones getting slaughtered periodically, the only people in IoM that doesnt constantly get horribly massacred by their enemies or allies are Space Marines.
GW doesnt want to damage the image of their super-human posterboys, so regular human forces like IG and SoB would have to take it for the team most of the time.
I'm aware the Guards die a lot, in fact more than anyone else, but the fact remains that the IG constantly win. Without the Guards there's no Imperium. It baffles me how ignorant some people can be when it comes to them, all this nonsense about flashlights and t-shirts, comparing the statistics of individual models to draw silly conclusions about the whole army.
Personally, I believe IG players have more reasons to be proud about their faction than SoB. They are better supported, have many great heroes, many tanks, many models, etc. I don't know how BL authors treat them generally, but they sure have more books.
My point is simply that SoB players have legitimate reasons to be unhappy, but if other armies are in a similar situation then their fans have as much reasons to voice their concerns. It's not a contest about who can whine the most.
I have to admit, as a player and fan of the Sisters, I have no problem with them getting slaughtered by the Grey Knights. It serves to stress the grimdark aspects of the setting, where even allies may turn upon one another where it serves their purpose or the "greater good" of the Imperium, and what it means to be an Astartes (which are not exactly buddy-types, despite their frequent depiction in various novel interpretations). We have similar instances where Sisters attack Marines - in fact, to stand ready for such operations seems to be on their list of official duties - the only difference being that they usually end up losing anyways (but that is another problem, see below).
The "only" part that did not sit well with me was some of the Sisters falling to Chaos. Completely unnecessary for the whole "sacrifice" deal and sort-of contradicting earlier fluff that stressed the Sororitas' incorruptability. Why that had to go in there, one can only guess.
Jackster wrote:well, they arent the only ones getting slaughtered periodically, the only people in IoM that doesnt constantly get horribly massacred by their enemies or allies are Space Marines.
GW doesnt want to damage the image of their super-human posterboys, so regular human forces like IG and SoB would have to take it for the team most of the time.
To be fair, the SoB aren't exactly "regular" forces. The major Orders you see 99% of the time come to about 25.000 warriors. Case in point: 3rd War of Armageddon -> 150 companies of Marines vs 10 companies of Sisters. The Orders Militant are not very important for the overall defence of the Imperium, they are just an important symbol for the Ecclesiarchy's might and a morale boost for other Imperial forces and citizens whilst occasionally leading the spearhead of a crusade or sending an elite strike force to dismantle the leadership of a powerful opponent or recover some important relic.
But of course you are spot-on regarding the posterboy role. They are GW's biggest seller and as such enjoy a certain inviolability when it comes to the grimdark consequences of war, instead winning hopeless battles with frightening regularity. There has been a time where this trend was not as strong, and there are differences between individual Chapters, but the current image is more or less the "invulnerable god of war".
All in all, my personal opinion is that the Imperial Guard is a premiere example of how an army should be portrayed in the fluff, balancing losses with victories and epic battles where stalwart prevalence had to be bought with many lives. The golden medium between invul Astartes and whipping girl Sisters.
Lynata wrote:
The "only" part that did not sit well with me was some of the Sisters falling to Chaos. Completely unnecessary for the whole "sacrifice" deal and sort-of contradicting earlier fluff that stressed the Sororitas' incorruptability. Why that had to go in there, one can only guess.
Considering that even the Grey Knights seemed like they might be vulnerable to the influence of the Bloodtide, I'd assume it was effectively some sort of mind-control.
on topic - Stop your bitching about the Blood tide. I bet in a few years/months everyone will be complaining about SOB new rules and how their overpowered,Fluff is wrong
Only if the new codex is released. Noone will seriously complain the WD rule update (which isn't even a real codex) is overpowered unless they're just horrible players.
In many ways it's actually WORSE than before, and it wasn't exactly spectacular before.
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MrTau wrote:On topic:Sisters of batlle are trained to human limits
Sisters actually can exceed human limits through their style of martial arts, achieving feats of martial prowess which are (and I quote from C:WH here) "miraculous to the unschooled".
Taht's right.
Adepta Sororitas Kung Fu Is Better Than Your Kung Fu.
Lynata wrote:The "only" part that did not sit well with me was some of the Sisters falling to Chaos. Completely unnecessary for the whole "sacrifice" deal and sort-of contradicting earlier fluff that stressed the Sororitas' incorruptability. Why that had to go in there, one can only guess.
I would assume Ward did it because he thinks only the Grey Knights should be that pure and incorruptible. Though, even the legitimacy of that statement has been called into question with the codex.
The whole discussion on incorruptibility is kinda pointless anyway. After all multiple Primach's were corrupted and they were much closer to the Emperor in terms of power, will, and psychic defense than any human or astates could ever hope to be. A Grey Knight surely should have fallen by now, that is if the didn't die to a man in most daemonic incursions. Oh wait that's the old backstory. Now, we have Kaldor Draigo who we're canonically told is completely incorruptible, and they curbstop chaos at every encounter.
Sersi wrote:The whole discussion on incorruptibility is kinda pointless anyway. After all multiple Primach's were corrupted and they were much closer to the Emperor in terms of power, will, and psychic defense than any human or astates could ever hope to be. A Grey Knight surely should have fallen by now, that is if the didn't die to a man in most daemonic incursions. Oh wait that's the old backstory. Now, we have Kaldor Draigo who we're canonically told is completely incorruptible, and they curbstop chaos at every encounter.
While the Primarchs are powerful they have a whole different mindset and agenda than your average Sister of battle also the Primarchs were given a lot of power and freedom, where as the sisters not so much. This
Harriticus wrote:Power armor or not these chicks are dedicated to war and train far more physically than your average Guard, they'll be physically stronger then most Guardsmen or PDF. Probably some minor degree of bio-enhancement as well.
Okay I picked this quote randomly out of many posts like it, so to Harritcus don't think I'm singling you out.
Alright first off a lot of you are forgetting basic facts. For starters if a man and a woman are about the same size the man is going to most likely have a good bit more strength thanks to being full of testosterone. Secondly although SoB are trained from a young age (most from a young age anyway) they will be strong. Yes this is true. However you also forget this about Guardsmen. They are always training as well and males (being the main sex in the IG) gain muscle much faster than women. Not only do they gain muscle faster, but as an infantryman I can tell you that a soldier in his spare time works out a lot as well. Especially if they want to freaking live. And no doubt most Guardsmen would want to be stronger given the threats that they must face.
So the quoted statement that they would be stronger than your average Guardsman or PDF seems a bit ridiculous to me. As strong? Maybe, but not very likely. Even female soldiers/ marines now a days are not as strong as their male counter parts (usually, hence the different physical fitness requirements). HOWEVER, once given power armor I would imagine SoB being at about crazy work out Guardsman to Storm Trooper strength.
You raise a good point - though it'd depend a lot on how long that regiment has been active. They usually get shipped to a warzone right after being drafted from some PDF, after all, and how much they trained at home (or if they did at all) is very circumstantial, depending on the planet in question, though I think it would be safe to say that no PDF trooper was training as hard for as long as the progena. Well, Catachans maybe!
Unfortunately, we do not know the average lifespan of a Guardsman, but even then there's too many variables all absent from 16 years of secluded Schola education: Nutritions and climate affecting the soldier's health, actual time devoted to a task supporting muscle growth (can't do push-ups when you're manning a pillbox in the midst of a war), duration of transit (during which soldiers would very likely do fitness exercises) ...
Unlike modern militaries, Guard regiments get raised to fight in a war, not because the Imperium needs a standing army. Certain exceptions (such as the Cadian home guard) aside, the only IG regiments who have a "peaceful" time and thus the chance for proper exercise are the ones who are in warp transit en route to another warzone, or the ones who were allowed to settle down on a newly conquered planet after decades of service (Roman-style!).
On the other hand, it's not like the Sisters - or any other Schola-candidates - would train their bodies all their life, right up from being a small child. For the Sororitas in particular there's also a lot of praying and studying involved.
AFAIK Sisters power armor does not increase their strength, it merely allows them to wear such heavy protection without significant noticeable encumberance.
Now, they're obviously well trained and exercised, so likely stronger and fitter than your average person, but probably not to the extent that it'd make any difference amongst other well trained troops, power armor or not.
Vaktathi wrote:AFAIK Sisters power armor does not increase their strength, it merely allows them to wear such heavy protection without significant noticeable encumberance.
Now, they're obviously well trained and exercised, so likely stronger and fitter than your average person, but probably not to the extent that it'd make any difference amongst other well trained troops, power armor or not.
All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it. Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3. You might not be able to bend steel girders while wearing power armor, but you could certainly snap someone's arm without any meaningful effort.
As for individual strength, at least under normal circumstances they're only human. They'll be psychically fit, for sure but not what you'd see beyond in most fit people. She isn't going to be even a world-class athlete, but she'd be beyond able to put your average person to shame.
This is of course under normal circumstances, even an ordinary human body can do extraordinary things on the occasion it's challenging the power o' d emprah. They also have access to special training and equipment the average person wouldn't, but that's not really a matter of raw physical power it's about ability.
Chongara wrote:All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it. Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3.
Yup. Case in point: effortlessly carrying and using a heavy bolter. The amount of people in the Imperial Guard who are able to pull this off is comparatively small, and they usually look like this guy
Chongara wrote:
All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it.
Which is primarily expressed as being to be able to carry incredible personal protection without walking around like frakenstein.
Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3.
There's plenty of stuff that gives units +1S for much less justification. If power armor isn't doing it, its probably safe to assume they aren't gaining any significant amount of strength
You might not be able to bend steel girders while wearing power armor, but you could certainly snap someone's arm without any meaningful effort.
I've yet to see in any sisters fluff evidence of such strength, either in any codex, WD article or BL book. That said, such a feat also isn't beyond a guardsmen with a solid rifle stock, and it doesn't mean they can dead lift 300lbs or the like.
Lynata wrote:
Chongara wrote:All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it. Just not enough to the point that you're getting a 1-up on strength on a d6, where the human baseline is 3.
Yup. Case in point: effortlessly carrying and using a heavy bolter. The amount of people in the Imperial Guard who are able to pull this off is comparatively small, and they usually look like this guy
Chongara wrote:
All power armor increases your strength, that's half the point of it.
Which is primarily expressed as being to be able to carry incredible personal protection without walking around like frakenstein.
They don't carry the weight of the armor, the armor carries it's own weight. The increased strength is on top of that.
I've yet to see in any sisters fluff evidence of such strength, either in any codex, WD article or BL book. That said, such a feat also isn't beyond a guardsmen with a solid rifle stock, and it doesn't mean they can dead lift 300lbs or the like.
Obviously I mean with their (power armored) hands. This wasn't a specific feat drawn from any source material, just an example that popped up to mind based on the level of strength enhancement. Other than every power armor in every fiction ever providing nontrivial strengtrh over even extremely well-muscled humans, I cite the Dark Heresy books. They clearly state that power armor provides a substantial bonus to strength, really only matched in the flesh by mutants.
iirc, Vanilla power armor is a +15 or 20(? can someone with the books actually check this?) bonus to strength. This is where the average person has a strength of about 30.
Chongara wrote:Other than every power armor in every fiction ever providing nontrivial strengtrh over even extremely well-muscled humans, I cite the Dark Heresy books. They clearly state that power armor provides a substantial bonus to strength, really only matched in the flesh by mutants.
iirc, Vanilla power armor is a +15 or 20(? can someone with the books actually check this?) bonus to strength. This is where the average person has a strength of about 30.
Light power armour gives +10, heavy power armour +20. Though personally, I wouldn't use DH as a source in a fluff discussion, seeing as it violates studio material on more than one occasion when it comes to equipment.
But fear not! There actually is a description in GW's own RPG still confirming it:
"Having an endo-skeletal array of actuators and muscle-like fibre bundles, power armour not only enables the wearer to be protected by heavy armour plating, but actually boosts their strength.
Power armour increases a character's Strength by a fifth (this has no effect on bionic arms)." - Source: Inquisitor RPG
Chongara wrote:Other than every power armor in every fiction ever providing nontrivial strengtrh over even extremely well-muscled humans, I cite the Dark Heresy books. They clearly state that power armor provides a substantial bonus to strength, really only matched in the flesh by mutants.
iirc, Vanilla power armor is a +15 or 20(? can someone with the books actually check this?) bonus to strength. This is where the average person has a strength of about 30.
Light power armour gives +10, heavy power armour +20. Though personally, I wouldn't use DH as a source in a fluff discussion, seeing as it violates studio material on more than one occasion when it comes to equipment.
But fear not! There actually is a description in GW's own RPG still confirming it:
"Having an endo-skeletal array of actuators and muscle-like fibre bundles, power armour not only enables the wearer to be protected by heavy armour plating, but actually boosts their strength.
Power armour increases a character's Strength by a fifth (this has no effect on bionic arms)." - Source: Inquisitor RPG
Oh come on now. If we dismissed every single thing related to 40k that contradicted multiple other sources we'd be left with what? The title of the Franchise? Maybe.
Chongara wrote:Oh come on now. If we dismissed every single thing related to 40k that contradicted multiple other sources we'd be left with what? The title of the Franchise? Maybe.
How about the studio material?
I'm just saying that I don't see a point in using licensed material as proof when they are unreliable as a source and their authors are free to write what they want instead of having to stick to what GW established. I'm not advocating to disregard it entirely - I adopting things I deem fitting from licensed products myself - what I am saying is that you can't use it to "override" the opinion of someone else.
But we already had a thread about this, so we shouldn't derail this one. The question about power armour strength enhancement has been answered, anyways.
Indeed it does. There's been what, at least three iterations of the Horus Heresy now? You can say "retcon" sometimes, but other times old fluff simply isn't mentioned, is that retconned out? etc. Lynata's overly simplistic view on what is canon and what isn't doesn't really work in 40k.
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Vaktathi wrote:AFAIK Sisters power armor does not increase their strength, it merely allows them to wear such heavy protection without significant noticeable encumberance.
It increases their strength quite a bit. Very few normal humans could wield vehicle-grade heavy bolters by themselves-- Guard has to do it in a weapon team and has to set up to do it.
Keep in mind that the benefits from the strength enhancement is also in endurance as well, as power armor has far more endurance than any human body.
Unless there is some source that says that Sob armor does NOT increase their strength, what reason do we have to discard all of the evidence in favor of their increased strength?
SoB have increased strength. It is entirely illogical for them NOT to. They carry heavy bolters and multi meltas around like a Space Marine can. They have POWER ARMOR, which we know INCREASES STRENGTH.
And keep in mind, Space Marines wear power armor, but an SM outside of armor is still S4. So SM power armor has no in-game effect in tabletop other than protection-- but we know it, too, enhances strength.
Well, Sister of Battle power armour also apparently doesn't have the same degree of strength enhancement as Space Marine power armour does, going by the Witchhunters codex. Though the WD update may have changed that.
The str bonus given by PA is simply not enough to warrent in game stats.
I would also imagine that, IRL, PA would give you only a nominal strength boost. It might allow you to bench another 20 pounds or carry another 50. but the bulk of your exerted strength would still be your natural body as most of the armor's power is going towards moving the suit so you arn't slowed.
That is the primary purpose of power armor, so you can have supurb protection without being slowed. the minor strength bonus is a side benifit that really isn't important.
The sisters armor likely doesn't have as much muscle fiber bundles or servos/actuators as astartes PA, therefore, it allows them to carry and fire a heavy bolter but is slimmer and far more maneuverable than it's green giant counterpart, which is why it looks like eldar armor to a point.
S4 for a marine sans PA is equivalent to benching roughly 500lbs or more. From reading Salamander, sgt Ba'ken is seen in the gymnasia many times throughout the book for multiple hours with the heaviest weight in the room, which, I'll assume would have to be about 500.
Considering there is some European guy who can bench 500 for two reps and he isnt on steroids and, is in fact, human.
BronzeJon wrote:The sisters armor likely doesn't have as much muscle fiber bundles or servos/actuators as astartes PA, therefore, it allows them to carry and fire a heavy bolter but is slimmer and far more maneuverable than it's green giant counterpart, which is why it looks like eldar armor to a point.
S4 for a marine sans PA is equivalent to benching roughly 500lbs or more. From reading Salamander, sgt Ba'ken is seen in the gymnasia many times throughout the book for multiple hours with the heaviest weight in the room, which, I'll assume would have to be about 500.
Considering there is some European guy who can bench 500 for two reps and he isnt on steroids and, is in fact, human.
Five hundred pounds is absurdly pitiful for a superhuman, their bodies alone would weigh beyond 500 pounds.
Grey Templar wrote:I would also imagine that, IRL, PA would give you only a nominal strength boost. It might allow you to bench another 20 pounds or carry another 50. but the bulk of your exerted strength would still be your natural body as most of the armor's power is going towards moving the suit so you arn't slowed.
Technically, that is only a limitation of whatever mechanics are employed to move the suit. The more powerful your servos are, the more strength you'll have left after the amount reserved for moving the suit - for the latter's weight may not have to change parallel to the power.
Here is a real world prototype of a Japanese-built powered exoskeleton. It enables the wearer to lift or carry five times as much weight as he could without assistance of the suit.
We're almost there! Now someone go and invent ceramite.
BronzeJon wrote:The sisters armor likely doesn't have as much muscle fiber bundles or servos/actuators as astartes PA, therefore, it allows them to carry and fire a heavy bolter but is slimmer and far more maneuverable than it's green giant counterpart, which is why it looks like eldar armor to a point.
It is also missing a lot of other gadgets that the Astartes model has, but that is essentially the point, yeah. As Void_Dragon correctly pointed out, there's a bit in the WH Codex where it says that the strength enhancement is not as good as the Marine version.
Melissia wrote:Lynata's overly simplistic view on what is canon and what isn't doesn't really work in 40k.
It works out just fine for me. And this way I don't have to deal with Multilaser Marines, backflipping Terminators, flirting SoB (armed with civilian weapons as far as DH is concerned) and Sisters deserting to Chaos left and right.
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth." - Andy Hoare, currently writing for FFG and the Black Library
Regardless, Sisters achieve victory through skill, not raw force of strength, and their martial prowess comes from practicing a martial art that allows them to achieve things which are miraculous to the unschooled. Such as fighting toe to toe with Space Marines.
Void__Dragon wrote:That sounds like it hurts your stance that only studio material is canon rather than helps it. IMHO.
Not really. You could perhaps argue that nothing (meaning: not even studio material) is "canon" - but it clearly denounces the reliability of licensed material (as that was the topic of the discussion where that comment was made). Although the conflicting contents introduced by said material should already speak for themselves, imo...
Either way, I'm happy, as, just like ADB who simply ignores what he doesn't like for the purpose of writing his BL novels, I don't have to accept any licensed material I deem silly. But I think we already talked about that in another thread.
- without power armor regular SoB are strong as normal Humans ( as much as normal Humans body can provide after years of training ).
- with power armor they are stronger then ordinary Humans ( but not that much, they can't push over tanks like Astartes ).
- having strong bodies doesn't mean that their bodies are liek that of bodybuilder, they have normal female bodies.
- BL books are known to have a "slight" off-fluff stuff ( like C.S.Goto ).
Grey Templar wrote:I would also imagine that, IRL, PA would give you only a nominal strength boost. It might allow you to bench another 20 pounds or carry another 50. but the bulk of your exerted strength would still be your natural body as most of the armor's power is going towards moving the suit so you arn't slowed.
Technically, that is only a limitation of whatever mechanics are employed to move the suit. The more powerful your servos are, the more strength you'll have left after the amount reserved for moving the suit - for the latter's weight may not have to change parallel to the power.
Here is a real world prototype of a Japanese-built powered exoskeleton. It enables the wearer to lift or carry five times as much weight as he could without assistance of the suit.
We're almost there! Now someone go and invent ceramite.
But that suit isn't carrying around the weight of said Ceramite. I would imagine thats going to cut down on the additional strength quite abit. depending on the actual weight of Ceramite of course.
You could end up only being able to lift a nominal fraction more then what you normally carry.
Regardless, Sisters power armor DOES enhance their strength. But their strength is human strength, so it doesn't increase it to S4. Marine strength isn't increased to S5 by their power armor, either, their strength is S4 base.
Basically, in DH, power armor adds +20 to strength. Most trained soldiers have ~40 strength. This is roughly 1.5x the strength value. Space Marines often have 40-50 strength and their power armor also adds +20, but have Unnatural strength making their bonus double that much for the purposes of dealign damage, opposed strength tests, etc. So the biological enhancements are far greater than the mechanical ones.
Grey Templar wrote:But that suit isn't carrying around the weight of said Ceramite. I would imagine thats going to cut down on the additional strength quite abit. depending on the actual weight of Ceramite of course.
Well, according to GW Codex material, a suit of Space Marine power armour weighs in at about 250 pounds (i.e. ~110 kg). Smaller versions would probably be a bit lighter.
What makes an unpowered suit so difficult to move even for a Space Marine isn't its weight but the fibre bundles running through the entire armour, and which would be rather stiff when left unpowered. It's a bit of irony: the very thing increasing the wearer's mobility and strength becomes a terrible hindrance when power goes out, even more than just the weight of the ceramite plates.
That said, and speaking of fibre-bundles - the Japanese HAL suit doesn't use any and instead relies on a more "traditional" (heh) servo-mechanism, so I imagine mobility to be somewhat limited. It actually looks quite nimble, but is still worlds from what I think 40k power armour would allow you to do. And in the end, the most important thing for a suit of powered armour on a battlefield isn't increased strength, but that the soldier wearing it doesn't feel too restricted by this additional protection. It's why the Storm Troopers of WW1 discarded the breastplate they had at first. And the Space Marines don't send their Terminators anywhere as well. It's all a question of bringing the right tools to the job.
Melissia wrote:Sisters of Battle are not musclebuilders. They are warriors.
Try showing an image of a female USMC marine or a female Mossad agent or something instead.
Sisters are as strong as a physically fit, exceedingly well-trained soldier. Their strength is then enhanced and stabilized by their power armor.
That wouldn't be accurate as the vast majority of female Marines have typical builds. Very few of them actually have the physical strength to match what modern infantry soldiers/marines do. Because it's really theoretical there are very few women in the world of the appropriate build.
That said, I know of at least one female lifter capable of lifting 225 lbs over her head for multiple reps. Women can become very strong.
SoB are probably as strong as or slightly stronger than average guardsman. Their particular power armor does not increase their physical strength.
Melissia wrote:Sisters of Battle are not musclebuilders. They are warriors.
Try showing an image of a female USMC marine or a female Mossad agent or something instead.
Sisters are as strong as a physically fit, exceedingly well-trained soldier. Their strength is then enhanced and stabilized by their power armor.
That wouldn't be accurate as the vast majority of female Marines have typical builds. Very few of them actually have the physical strength to match what modern infantry soldiers/marines do. Because it's really theoretical there are very few women in the world of the appropriate build.
That said, I know of at least one female lifter capable of lifting 225 lbs over her head for multiple reps. Women can become very strong.
SoB are probably as strong as or slightly stronger than average guardsman. Their particular power armor does not increase their physical strength.
Yeah it does there's reason why there strength is 4.
Melissia wrote:Sisters of Battle are not musclebuilders. They are warriors.
Try showing an image of a female USMC marine or a female Mossad agent or something instead.
Sisters are as strong as a physically fit, exceedingly well-trained soldier. Their strength is then enhanced and stabilized by their power armor.
That wouldn't be accurate as the vast majority of female Marines have typical builds. Very few of them actually have the physical strength to match what modern infantry soldiers/marines do. Because it's really theoretical there are very few women in the world of the appropriate build.
That said, I know of at least one female lifter capable of lifting 225 lbs over her head for multiple reps. Women can become very strong.
SoB are probably as strong as or slightly stronger than average guardsman. Their particular power armor does not increase their physical strength.
Yeah it does there's reason why there strength is 4.
No, Sisters of Battle are still s3 and it specifically states in the fluff that their armor only grants increased protection and enough strength increase for them to use heavy weapons without a team.
Melissia wrote:Sisters of Battle are not musclebuilders. They are warriors.
Try showing an image of a female USMC marine or a female Mossad agent or something instead.
Sisters are as strong as a physically fit, exceedingly well-trained soldier. Their strength is then enhanced and stabilized by their power armor.
That wouldn't be accurate as the vast majority of female Marines have typical builds. Very few of them actually have the physical strength to match what modern infantry soldiers/marines do. Because it's really theoretical there are very few women in the world of the appropriate build.
That said, I know of at least one female lifter capable of lifting 225 lbs over her head for multiple reps. Women can become very strong.
SoB are probably as strong as or slightly stronger than average guardsman. Their particular power armor does not increase their physical strength.
Yeah it does there's reason why there strength is 4.
No, Sisters of Battle are still s3 and it specifically states in the fluff that their armor only grants increased protection and enough strength increase for them to use heavy weapons without a team.
Fail on my part. Although I still think it enhances there strength because they carry heavy bolters.
There's nothing inconsistent about it. "S3" isn't fluff, it's a game stat: just because two models have the same Strength value as per game mechanics doesn't mean they have exactly the same strength. See power-armoured Space Marines compared to Marine Scouts, both of whom have the same strength profile.
Also, Harker wasn't the first Guardsman that could carry a heavy bolter. Look at the guy on the bottom right on this pic - and he was S3, too.
Bottom line - whilst you can assume that anyone with S4 can carry a heavy bolter (see Marine Scouts), in the S3 range only exceptional individuals can do so - either due to special equipment (power armour) or because they have above-average constitution (lots o' muscle).
There are two depictions of sisters which I find amusing.
You have the ultra butch steroid woman battlenuns with scars running all over their body from who knows what. And then you have the delicate, slim, and aesthetically pleasing battle maidens who spend their free time having pillow fights and raising puppies.
Nothing wrong with that. In the end, the amount of scars and/or muscles is merely a sign of battlefield experience (fresh novice out of the Schola vs a veteran of decades) and specialization (Retributor w/ heavy weapon vs a driver or pilot). Added to that comes the fact that, unlike individual IG regiments, the Sisterhood recruits from all over the Imperium - so you may indeed end up with a Sister of Battle born on Cadia next to one hailing from Catachan, with the appropriate differences in their looks.
Statwise, it's also no different than comparing Catachan IG brutes to the slim low-grav Harakoni. In the TT, the strength value just encompasses a rather wide range, and only people of exceptionally high (Harker, Space Marines) or low (Chaos Cultists) strength differ from the S3 norm.
Sister Liandra from the peaceful, though arid, Shrine World of Maccabeus Quintus will not look the same as Sister Brigitta, from the Feral World of Hyborea III.
While Sister Liandra might be a Sister Militant, wielding heavy bolter, flamer and chainsword, and Sister Brigitta might be a Sister Hospitaler, tending to the sick and injured... until Liandra sees a few battles and suffers a few wounds, Brigitta is, in all likelihood, going to be much bigger, stronger and more battle-scarred, at least at the outset, simply because she's from a more savage world where such things were required to get by in daily life.
Melissia wrote:Except they did, IIRC, in one of the BL books.
Not taking them on, so much as dying slowly and stalling them (still impressive in my opinion.), albeit the GK's were dicks and crashed a strike cruiser into the planet at the time.
Heresy? 
.
= 
Or face the Inquisition 
Although I still think it enhances there strength because they carry heavy bolters.
