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As has been mentioned already, there are no psykers nor mutants in the Sisterhood. Both things are detectable by genetic testing, and all prospective members of the Sororitas are carefully screened to ensure purity of mind as well as body. In fact, the "Shield of Faith" AoE special rule of the Adepta Sororitas outright negates minor psychic powers (regardless if used for or against them) whilst seriously impeding major ones.

Where the power of a Living Saint truly comes from depends on where you think the power behind the Sisters' "normal" Acts of Faith comes from. Either it truly is the Emperor working through one of his chosen servants, or it is the collective power of faith somehow causing an equivalent to psychic phenomena whilst circumventing the normal requirements and restrictions. Like the Orks' Waaagh field.

I thought about the latter a lot, and by keeping in mind that emotion can occasionally have a very strong effect in 40k (-> birth of Slaanesh) as well as religion being a perfect conduit for emotion, we come to the idea that a Living Saint is the faithful crusading masses' combined hate, zeal and dedication which somehow ends up being channeled into a focal point, essentially jumping to and "possessing" one of the most faithful, thereby investing her with great supernatural powers which are naturally taken to be of divine origin by the holy warriors present.

A Living Saint's end could then occur out of two reasons: Either the frail human form of the Saint simply cannot bear the strange energies coursing through her body and she "burns out" like a magnesium flare, or - a slightly more ironical and grimdark thought - over time the masses of the faithful get used to the Living Saint doing all the hard work for them and the flow of strong emotion slowly dries up, once reaching the critical threshold essentially cutting the link between the Saint and the actual source of her powers, leaving her body a wrecked hulk.

Just theory, mind you. There is no actual canon regarding the exact nature of Faith Powers in 40k - of course everything is attributed as being the Emperor's work, but nobody knows if it's true.

Psienesis wrote:As far as the story with the girl... All members of the Sororitas, at the beginning, go through the same military-religious school training. Here, they learn all about the Emperor, their history, the Imperium, its function, its saints, its heroes, its enemies and the Imperial Creed. They also all receive basic training in the Flamer, the Bolter and the mace, the basic weapons of the Sororitas.

All this is actually done in the Ecclesiarchy's Schola Progenium, and even though the Adepta Sororitas do have a hand in the training, the progena are not yet members of the Sisterhood. Even progena meant to become Sororitas later on may still "switch paths" if they are considered to be more useful elsewhere. The Schola Progenium is also the one and only source of new recruits for the Sisterhood.

Once you actually join the Sisterhood (meaning selection to begin the novitiate), you're in it for life. Anyone wishing to leave would probably only judged to be tainted with doubt, thus "obviously" requiring their minds and body to be purged by prayer, fasting and flagellation until they're brought in line and their souls are saved. After all, how else could this individual hope to become a devoted servant of the Emperor when refusing the chance to train with His finest? Rejection is Heresy. </grimdark>

Unfortunately it just seems the novel's author was looking a bit too closely to medieval nuns when coming up with the idea that a noble family sends their daughter to the cloister for education. The AS aren't a Boarding School.

Not saying that the idea in itself is completely undoable in 40k, but the Orders Militant make no sense whatsoever when the Orders Famulous are the dedicated arm of the Sisterhood for such things. I'd even deem it possible that the Famulous do run a facility like a "40k boarding school" (with AS teachers but without the girls being considered members of the Sisterhood), though in-house education with a Sister Famulous as governess should be (and is hinted as being) the norm. Alternatively just keep the AS out of it entirely and invent a local cult, or force the girl to become a lay servant of the normal clergy in some secluded chapel, which would probably be the setting's best equivalent to what the author had intended(?).

I like your theory about the origin of Living Saints, especially the bit about burning out. I never read this story about the Sisters, but as you say, a rich enough family could probably get quite a bit accomplished beyond the scope of normal operations.

The "burning out" isn't exactly my idea, if I recall correctly this is actually mentioned in the Codex - I was just trying to explain the why.

Jimsolo wrote:I never read this story about the Sisters, but as you say, a rich enough family could probably get quite a bit accomplished beyond the scope of normal operations.

Depends on how far you go. The Sisters won't get pushed around by a bunch of nobles - in fact, they are in a far better position to push the nobles around. The Orders Famulous are an incredibly useful tool for political power games, which means that:

a) the Adepta Sororitas can never be allowed to appear influenceable, else all the nobles in the galaxy would grow even more wary of them than they already are
b) the influence of the Adepta Sororitas as a galactic organization is far more wide-reaching than a noble house whose power is limited to a specific region of space

I'm quite sure that a powerful noble is able to pull a few strings with the local Ecclesiarchy, which, in the form of recommendations and requests, may even affect the Sororitas to a certain degree - but in the end, the only one who can command them to do anything is the Ecclesiarch himself, who I presume is beyond the reach of the nobility since Thor's reformations after the Age of Apostasy (and certain laws dedicated to preventing such things, lest a new Vandire may arise some day).

The rules of the Sisters are sacrosanct, personally I don't see any way how some noble could force a convent to break them. The Sisterhood generally doesn't allow the idea of "exceptions", and if pushed they would simply push back, first involving the Order's Home Convent on Terra or Ophelia VII, then the Ecclesiarchy, and then the High Lords of Terra (where the Ecclesiarchy has a permanent seat). I don't think anyone would want to risk this just for some troublesome brat who may just as well be raised in a local cult or non-Sororitas chapel.

That said, perhaps there would be room for a non-Sororitas servant in a convent? Similar to the role of Marine serfs in their monasteries. That could actually work - the only things that I don't deem fitting are the ideas of nobles telling the AS who they have to allow amidst their ranks (in fact, according to the Codex, all Sororitas are Schola Progenium orphans) and Sisters simply leaving their convent at will as if it'd be a volunteer organization.

The Dark Heresy RPG is the most-inclusive source we have on how the Sisters function and operate on the day-to-day, and it is here that we are told that all of the Sisters who serve, do so because they want to, and because they truly believe that their faith is pure and that what they do is what the Emperor wants of them.

Think about it... if you have this supposedly-ultra-holy army populated by a bunch of women who would rather be doing something else, anything else, and are only paying lip-service to the Ecclesiarchy and the Imperial Creed... what good are they doing for the Imperium? For the Emperor? Their faith is hollow, their piety false, their "armor of faith" filled with so many holes that the Archenemy would have a field day corrupting them, both overtly and subversively.

The Sisters of Battle have no use for someone who, for whatever reason, does not have the strength of faith and spirit to willingly, and gladly, do what it is that they do.

Mmhm. My point is that the Sisters would not allow anyone to join who has not displayed the required amount of zeal and dedication beforehand. It's part of the selection back in the Schola. Anyone who suddenly looses this zeal and wants to leave(!) the AS would surely arise suspicion - I would deem it natural that her Sisters would attempt to "cure" such an individual by any means necessary, if you catch my drift. And they would think they're doing her a favor.

And where would an orphan even want to go? All such an individual has ever known was life isolated behind the convent walls, decades of indoctrination, with the only family being her fellow Sisters and her stern Superior.

That's like a Space Marine who suddenly decides he wants to be a baker now.

I like a lot of the ideas of the Dark Heresy RPG, but I also know that (not unlike some novels) it sometimes takes a great deal of liberty with the canon - and in places where it conflicts with what GW has written I'll simply stick to the studio material. It's the safest route (and prevents me from admitting that PDF troopers apparently receive better equipment than the Sisters Militant ).

Perhaps, but the Sororitas are not Space Marines. They're not as.. hard-wired into their duties as the Astartes are.

Things change, people change. They find that they want to do something else. Have kids, raise families, become a painter, join the Inquisition, build toy Titans, become a Rogue Trader, whatever.

Psienesis wrote:They're not as.. hard-wired into their duties as the Astartes are.

That's where we disagree. Though you may well have the RPG backing up your perception!

But I stick to their GW description: "A penitent organization where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime."

Sounds more grimdark, too. And is the very explanation for why they can evoke Acts of Faith where clerics cannot. Their lifestyle is simply more hardcore.

Sure, but that's not the same thing as being hypno-indoctrinated into the cult of their Chapter.

The acts of faith? It's a talent. Called "Pure Faith". Certain Inquisitors can do it, too. Eisenhorn did it for awhile, until he became tainted.

And, yeah, that's the Sororitas regime. Some people will be really into it, through it displaying their devotion to the Emperor, viewing it as an act of faith, but also as an act of penance for the whole of humanity.

Some people, however, won't... and this is why the Sororitas cannot have these people in its ranks. It doesn't matter how you try to *force* someone to have your beliefs and faith... at best, they're going to start telling you what you want to hear. This, for Chaos, is a foothold. If you force someone to remain in the Sisterhood, by means of threat, physical coercion, whatever... anything other than an honest desire to remain, to take on these arduous tasks as an act of faith and devotion... you breed resentment. Resentment leads to a desire to change conditions, for revenge... and these are the playthings of Tzeentch.

The Sororitas cannot function in this manner. I note that very, very, very few Sisters have ever fallen to Chaos willingly (one, I believe, ever?). This makes them particularly dependable to other militant factions within the Imperium. If this was not the case, however... if it were known that the Sisterhood had a bit of a "problem" with recidivism or outright daemonic influences within their ranks... well, this would call into question a great many things, including the sanctity of the Imperial Cult as a whole, and of the Sororitas specifically.

Psienesis wrote:Sure, but that's not the same thing as being hypno-indoctrinated into the cult of their Chapter.

One might argue that Schola education is pretty much indoctrination in its own right. And when you've never known anything else than life in the convent, how would you even know what's wrong with it? The Sororitas pretty much operate on a "carrot and a stick" policy - the carrot being the solidarity of the Sisterhood. The Adepta Sororitas become a Sister's family, which has a profound effect on how they think and feel. They get broken (in the Schola) and born anew as devoted servants of the Creed. They have a purpose and they have a home and in a way they may even feel loved - leaving the convent would mean to loose everything.

Psienesis wrote:The acts of faith? It's a talent. Called "Pure Faith".

In the RPG. In the actual setting, this is nothing you can buy with a couple XP or as part of a starting package but a personality trait representing a truly outstanding power of will, of devotion and faithfulness, a state of mind that takes many years or the observation of a true miracle to acquire and that brooks no sliver of doubt.

Eisenhorn was a psyker. If he truly pulled off AoF ... well, I've heard many good things about the quality of Abnett's books, but I also heard of certain inconsistencies with studio canon, and this seems like something to add to the list, considering that the Shield of Faith is negating psychic powers.
Of course there are individuals outside the Sororitas who can pull them off, but I'd really not consider "some Inquisitor" to be amongst them. We're talking more along the lines of Sebastian Thor or Confessor Dolan.

Psienesis wrote:Some people, however, won't... and this is why the Sororitas cannot have these people in its ranks.

Which is why only the most faithful get selected to join up in the first place (and they wouldn't allow a bunch of nobles to force their unruly daughter to join them!). The selections in the Schola are likely extremely thorough, and this core requirement may well be one of the reasons for why the Sisterhood is rather small. For someone to want to leave, she must first go through a crisis of faith - and this is where I think the Sisters would intervene instead of just letting her go and (in their eyes) damn her immortal soul. The Order has a place for any of its charges, and if there is a chance that a Sister may not be "saved" by returning her to the fold ... well, there's always the Repentia to ensure her place with the Emperor. The Mistress knows how to get her ready for martyrdom.

Don't underestimate the extreme psychological effects such a regime and its various tools can have on the human mind. Especially given how the Sisters basically grow up in such an environment. The social pressure alone must be immense - who would not want to fit in? Not just to avoid physical punishment, but also to enjoy the aforementioned carrot? Religion and the extreme isolation just make everything even easier. Humans want to fit in - it's in our instincts, and the most atrocious acts of mass violence can be traced back to it.

PS: As per the RAW, Acts of Faith are not available to every Sororitas, only to their veterans. It's a bit tricky to "transfer" this mechanic into the fluff, but they're basically "phase 2" of the Shield of Faith and would probably represent an even deeper devotion than what is common in their own ranks, so there is some room for variation.

@Lynata: A nice pet theory there (comparing the Living Saint to a Waaagh). As for the noble duaghter, it wasn't under the pretence of a boarding school. She was entering for life, and the family didn't want that.

Furthermore, as devoted to the cause and faithful as the sisterhood are, no one is immune from political power-play in 40k. While the Ecclessiarchy is more likely to deal with such things, the Sororitas still find themselves playing a part. It was hinted in Enforcer that the novitiate was kept on, not becuase of any special piety on her part, but becuase they wished to demonstrate that who did or did not enter the ranks of the Convent was the jurisdiction of the Sororitas, regardless of any noble's objections.

@Psienesis: As Lynata said, any sign of lacking in faith would be met with punishment and fasting, rather than exile. It's far more likely that a truly unfaithful Sister would eventually join the ranks of the Repentia (or Arco-Flaggelants) rather than simply be let go.

Oh, yes, indeed. It's incredibly rare for people to leave the Sisterhood (or the Commissariat, for that matter) because all they have ever known their entire lives is service to the Imperium. This is not to say that it *couldn't* happen.

Yes, at the outset, the unwilling are not going to get into the Sororitas. They start out as being the best candidates for the job. But people do change... their faith may be as strong as it always was, but they may feel that the Emperor is better served in another manner not provided by the Sororitas, or they may be answering to what they feel is the Emperor inspiring them to do something else.

A Sister may feel the Emperor is calling her to bring His Light to those who live in Darkness in a far-off sector... or in human worlds lost since the Age of Darkness in the Halo Stars or the Jericho Reach. Her faith remains strong and pure... but the Sisterhood has no Ordos in these regions. She becomes a Rogue Trader in the service of the Ecclesiarchy. Still in service to the God-Emperor, just in a way the Sisterhood, as an organization, is ill-equipped to handle.

There is also the fact to remember that the Sororitas only has the one Ordo Militant, the rest are trained in combat, but it's not their primary role. Perhaps one Hospitaler just gets sick (if you will pardon the pun) of the endless tide of ill and injured on a war-torn Hive World. Maybe a Sister Famulous gets tired of the intrigues of courtly and noble life, absolutely disgusted at the corruption within these ranks of Imperial society. A Sister Dialogous gets tired of reading books deemed heretical or warp-tainted or, if not in such a library, she just gets bored of looking after dry, boring illuminated texts that a pack of servitors has been keeping for the last three thousand years; her role is unnecessary.

Those are just a few broad examples, and the path out for Sisters who become weak in their faith is much less rosy (for obvious reasons), but these paths are there (the Repentia or the Oblatia being only two), without becoming a Fallen Sororitas (in which your only real hope is a Recidivist organization or certain breeds of Radical Inquisitors, really... other than death, of course).

Eisenhorn was a psyker. If he truly pulled off AoF ... well, I've heard many good things about the quality of Abnett's books, but I also heard of certain inconsistencies with studio canon, and this seems like something to add to the list, considering that the Shield of Faith is negating psychic powers.

He was, but being a psyker had nothing to do with Acts of Faith. In the first book, he's holding back daemons and warp-creatures with declarations from the Book of the Imperial Creed , various chants and canticles taught to him to repel the Entity From Beyond, etc. etc. and they work.

Later on, in Book 3, he's... been through some stuff. He's done... some things. His faith is no longer pure, nor is his soul. He gets into a face-down with an unrestrained Cherubael (a daemonhost) and attempts to use the Emperor's Warding against the Darkness.

Cherubael's reaction?
"Just words, Gregor. They're just words..."

And then an insane, and insanely faithful, priest comes running up and bashes the daemonhost on the head with a platinum aquila... and the daemonhost is actually injured... but that's besides the point. Point being, Eisenhorn was, by that point, tainted. His faith was weak.

As far as the RPG is concerned, Sister characters don't start with the nifty bits of the Pure Faith talent, either. All of the actual miracles have Pure Faith as a requirement, but require both higher levels in the career path as well as other requirements (no Corruption beyond a couple of points, [very hard in the game], other attributes or talents, certain career-ranks, and so on). The Pure Faith talent, by itself, is nice, but it doesn't really do anything truly fabulous.

Overall, and this is my own interpretation, having a virtual slave-army of "nuns with guns" is suitably grimdark... but I think the idea of them being there, standing before the Gates of Hell itself, flamer in hand and ready to march through, because they want to be there is so very much more grimdark.

When you remove the element of choice from the equation or, rather, when you place the element of choice in such a way that says "yes, this stuff is all horrible and terrible and the Worst Thing Ever... and these people *chose* to be here to fight it" it makes it even more grimdark.

The IG, for example, doesn't quite draw the same sense of dramatic weight because most of them are drafted... they had no real choice in being on some Death World while fighting the forces of Chaos or Renegades or whatever. Not *quite* as Grimdark as the army of nuns-with-guns who come down to this Death World to fight and kill and die because they *want* to.

As Lynata said, any sign of lacking in faith would be met with punishment and fasting, rather than exile. It's far more likely that a truly unfaithful Sister would eventually join the ranks of the Repentia (or Arco-Flaggelants) rather than simply be let go.

Perhaps, but what does the Sororitas do when the punishments and fasting fail to bring their Sister back to the realms of the uber-faithful? Status as an Arco-Flagellant, or even as a Sister Repentia, requires the person to have committed some sin or heresy... not simply saying "You know what? It's been fun... but this isn't for me anymore. I no longer have what it takes" or "I feel the Emperor has called me to another service, one which I cannot perform while a member of the Sororitas, and here is why I feel this way...".

Exile is not what I'm talking about... that implies a forced expulsion from the ranks of the Sisterhood (which doesn't happen, for reasons you've mentioned). This is not the situation, though. This event, the voluntary leaving of the Sororitas, is more akin to a self-imposed exile, though only loosely, in that the person will not be able to return, but the Sororitas holds no ill-will against the individual. They recognize that what they do is not something that anyone/everyone is capable of doing, and it does them no favors to waste the time and energy required to try to force someone to be what they need. After all, it may come to pass that the lives of dozens or hundreds of Sisters relies on the faith and the skill of a single one of their number... would you want to risk having someone in that position who is not totally, 100% committed?

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

I completely agree with you on Sisters moving between Ordos, such as a Battle Sister becoming weary of constant warfare and wanting to help the sick of an under-hive as she grows older. But that's it. Nothing I've ever read indicates that Sisters have such autonomy as to leave their Convent at will, or that a "Sorry guys, this just isn't working out anymore" attitude would be seen as acceptable. Remember, we're talking about the Ecclessiarchy, where simply not having enough faith is just as liable to be punished as a faithless act.

Perhaps special leave could be granted if they were still pious, but that would likely involve them being moved to another branch of the Ecclessiarchy. I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.

I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.

Broadly speaking, there's only 4 Ordos in the Sisterhood: Militant, Dialoguous, Famulous and Hospitaler. All of the other "ordos" (Flaming Rose, Burning Heart, Silver Cup, whatever) are a mix of one, some or all of these 4 divisions.

Neither of these really cover being, say, the Ship's Mistress of a Jovian-class Pilgrim Transport.

Psienesis wrote:A Sister may feel the Emperor is calling her to bring His Light to those who live in Darkness in a far-off sector... or in human worlds lost since the Age of Darkness in the Halo Stars or the Jericho Reach. Her faith remains strong and pure... but the Sisterhood has no Ordos in these regions. She becomes a Rogue Trader in the service of the Ecclesiarchy. Still in service to the God-Emperor, just in a way the Sisterhood, as an organization, is ill-equipped to handle.

Such a character would have to have very specific goal in mind. The Sisterhood is active in almost every possible aspect of Imperial life. So she wants to bring His Light to those who live in darkness in a far-off sector? There's the entire Order Sabine just for that. Human worlds lost in the Jericho Reach? I happen to know that several units of the Sisters Militant are part of the Crusade you are referring to.

Psienesis wrote:As far as the RPG is concerned, Sister characters don't start with the nifty bits of the Pure Faith talent, either. All of the actual miracles have Pure Faith as a requirement, but require both higher levels in the career path as well as other requirements (no Corruption beyond a couple of points, [very hard in the game], other attributes or talents, certain career-ranks, and so on). The Pure Faith talent, by itself, is nice, but it doesn't really do anything truly fabulous.

Oh, I know the RPG and the liberties it takes with the canon. The requirements aren't as hard as you seem to recall, though. Corruption was only relevant for Pure Faith in the Inquisitor's Handbook (which had no Faith Talents) - the Blood of Martyr's version (which has Faith Talents) on the other hand doesn't care for Corruption at all. You could keep casting the (imho rather flawed) Faith spells even if your arm has already turned into a tentacle (solely going by the RAW - I suppose many GMs would intervene). Also, the only requirement to gain a Faith Talent is paying the XP cost at the relevant level, where some Faith Talents require another one as prerequisite. That's about it.

Generally, it's a rather poor pay-off for the increased XP cost and certain talents that are missing but should be there on part of the studio fluff. I find myself not wanting to buy any of them for my current character. In retrospect, I think I should have gone for the IH variant (starting out as novice but being more useful and combat-capable later on). :/

Psienesis wrote:Overall, and this is my own interpretation, having a virtual slave-army of "nuns with guns" is suitably grimdark... but I think the idea of them being there, standing before the Gates of Hell itself, flamer in hand and ready to march through, because they want to be there is so very much more grimdark.

Misunderstanding! In my opinion, the real grimdark is not because they are forced to be there, but because they were made to think they want to be there.

I also think the Imperial Guard comes with quite a bit of dramatic weight especially because they had no choice and they lack equipment that is essentially on par with Marine-gear. Guardsmen just "have to make due" or perish, and the ragged units of grizzled veterans have a sense of grimdark of their own because one knows they've been to hell and back, leaving countless corpses behind, including many a friend. In a way, they (the vets) are the ones who are the real heroes of the Imperium, simply because they are only ordinary humans with balls of steel. The underdog that isn't spoiled by genetic engineering or superior arms & armour, their only refuge being the greater autonomy and individual freedom they have compared to the indoctrinated ranks of the Astartes and Sororitas. In a way, it's a nice balance of narrative aspects... part of why I like the setting so much.

Perhaps, but what does the Sororitas do when the punishments and fasting fail to bring their Sister back to the realms of the uber-faithful? Status as an Arco-Flagellant, or even as a Sister Repentia, requires the person to have committed some sin or heresy... not simply saying "You know what? It's been fun... but this isn't for me anymore. I no longer have what it takes" or "I feel the Emperor has called me to another service, one which I cannot perform while a member of the Sororitas, and here is why I feel this way...".

See, I think that such thinking is already a sin, as the individual has started to doubt her place in the Emperor's great plan and the wisdom of her superiors.

So that she may it all times carry out her sacred duties to her Order and Our Lord the Emperor, it is fitting that all Sisters obey their Superior, strictly and in all things. As soon as an order is issued by a Superior, that order should be carried out as if the blessed Dominica herself had commanded it, for it is written - 'Her will be done'
- Rule CCXXXIX, the Rule of the Sororitas. Volume XXV

Should any Sister, in her deeds, words or thoughts, in peace or at war in any way commit a sin, she should willingly and immediately make her fault known to her Superior, to make amends with a pure heart. And if she does not usually fail in this matter, let her be given but a week's penance, but if her sin is great let her go apart from the company of her Sisters, so that she may not sit at table with them, nor kneel in prayer, nor fight the Emperor's foes at their side. Let her go all but alone, submitting herself to the will of the almighty God-Emperor of Mankind. Let her don the penitent hood and take up the ceremonial eviscerator, and seek her redemption upon the fold of battle.
- Rule CCCLII, the Rule of the Sororitas Volume VI

This is an interesting and enjoyable debate, by the way. Thanks.

We're not, unfortunately, privy to the entirety of what the Ecclesiarchy, in general, or specific Orders, individually, consider sins or heresies. As with so much else in the Imperium, it probably falls to the well-used "Depends on the world you're on" answer.

It may be, in some Orders, that questioning one's faith is a High Heresy... in others, perhaps not. Probably depends on the temperament of the Canoness. Going back to the examples that I used above, a Canoness of a particular disposition may not take the hard-line stance and may see, in the confession of a Sister who believes that she has a calling outside the Sororitas, that the God-Emperor does, indeed, have a plan for this woman, and that plan does not include the Sororitas. Or may see the Hand of the Emperor at work in the idea of a Sister-turned-Rogue-Trader... and may see herself as a facilitator, or hindrance, to this Divine Plan.

Psienesis wrote:

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.

Oh the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy is monumental. They can't own ships though, the Vandire Heresy and Decree Passive saw to that.

I could certainly see a Rouge Trader that works closely with the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps with a Sister Representative or even a contigent of them on board. But I fail to see how an ex-sister would end up Captaining one, short of finding a fortune and deserting from the Convent.

I can't imagine any viable scenario where their 'calling' wouldn't fall under the widespread realms of the many Orders.

Broadly speaking, there's only 4 Ordos in the Sisterhood: Militant, Dialoguous, Famulous and Hospitaler. All of the other "ordos" (Flaming Rose, Burning Heart, Silver Cup, whatever) are a mix of one, some or all of these 4 divisions.

Neither of these really cover being, say, the Ship's Mistress of a Jovian-class Pilgrim Transport.

Actually, Dark Heresy (and the WH codex) both say that there are many, many more Orders than Militant/Dialogous/Famulous/Hospitallier. Enforcer also mentions a few more Ordos, some do cleansing missions for ships that had a rough warp travel, some are concerned with securing or checking the authenicity of relics and sacred artifacts. The Ordos is a lot more extensive than just what is represented by the models.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Psienesis wrote:

First up I'll just say the idea of a Sister becoming a Rouge Trader is right out. She'd need to have the funds to get a private ship, and it would probably go to the Ecclessiarchy (the funds, that is) rather than her own personal use.

It's happened. I'll get her name when I get back home and have my RT book on hand. There's also the possibility, outside a specific character, that the Ecclesiarchy funds the expedition and buys the ship. Not every RT owns his own ship, after all. Or, perhaps, private investors interested in the potentially lucrative markets available on these human worlds will fund the former Sister and buy the ship themselves. Shoot, look at the wealth televangelists amass in our own world... imagine the wealth of the Cardinals and other religious individuals on certain Hive Worlds and the like.

Oh the wealth of the Ecclessiarchy is monumental. They can't own ships though, the Vandire Heresy and Decree Passive saw to that.

I could certainly see a Rouge Trader that works closely with the Ecclesiarchy, perhaps with a Sister Representative or even a contigent of them on board. But I fail to see how an ex-sister would end up Captaining one, short of finding a fortune and deserting from the Convent.

When the whole organization is set up to obey the letter of the law rather than the spirit (no Men under Arms, etc) I could totally see some minor order somewhere with deep pockets saying "Hey, as an organization, we can't have any ships. But good Sister Sally here can, she's just a private citizen. I'll arrange for her to receive a large monetary gift on her next birthday, you work on securing her a warrant of trade"

Hmmm, now there's an idea. Actually, it's brilliant (in terms of the decree passive). I don't think it's quite where Psinesis was going with the subject, but I can certainly see it happening. Still, it's not like the Sister is leaving solely on her violition.

Psienesis wrote:We're not, unfortunately, privy to the entirety of what the Ecclesiarchy, in general, or specific Orders, individually, consider sins or heresies. As with so much else in the Imperium, it probably falls to the well-used "Depends on the world you're on" answer.

That'd be more of a case of missing information here. The Adepta Sororitas are a surprisingly uniform organization, compared to the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines:

As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.

It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or, in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of their doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.

Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina.

Also, I've read that the Sisterhood actually does have a fleet of ships (first mentioned in their very first appearance in 40k back in 1E, occasionally mentioned later on) - it's just that they're rapid deployment troop transports and landers for quickly moving around, not battlecruisers to engage in space combat with. Although lightly armed to fend off minor annoyances such as a small pirate, they still require Navy protection for safe passage through a warzone. Apparently, the Navy protested against Sisterhood ships being armed at all (seeing that as an encroachment onto their territory), but had no choice other than to grudgingly accept defensive weaponry due to the Navy not being able/willing to provide the resources necessary for all-time escort coverage.

Occasionally you also have Navy warships seconded to the Ecclesiarchy, though I wouldn't think that the Sisters would "impede" their day-to-day operations by hijacking important positions on the ship. The most I could think of would be some sort of advisor position or liaison. That said, Sisters Famulous regularly work with Navy battlegroups and Missionarius Galaxia exploration fleets to provide linguistic assistance, both for encountering new languages as well as to handle differences in dialect between various groups within the Imperial forces, seeing that larger formations are often drawn together from several worlds, many of whom have their own local tongue and rank-and-file crewmen/guardsmen/workers unable to speak Imperial Gothic. Just to throw in a few more options for Sisters wishing to travel. And that's not even touching the Orders' Militant peacetime task of protecting pilgrim routes!

Interesting, I've never read anywhere that the Sisters actually owned these ships, I thought they were reqisitioned (as the IG often requisitions Valkyries or Vendettas).

Though one Guard regiment to the next can vary widely in its disposition, discipline, equipment and so on, apart from some very, very basic standards. I don't see the Sororitas being terribly different in this manner... there's obviously going to be some "baseline" sins (ie, Consort with the Xeno, Succor given to the Mutant, Acceptance of the Heretic and similar things will all be High Heresy), but whether or not using the fork with the blue handle around Yuletide requires a minor penance or castigation of the flesh is probably down to the individual Canoness at the site.

Also, read the last line of the first paragraph of your quote there:

It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.

I think that pretty much proves the thrust of my debate right there.

I don't think it's quite where Psinesis was going with the subject, but I can certainly see it happening. Still, it's not like the Sister is leaving solely on her violition.

It is, to an extent. With a combination of the examples provided, it makes perfect sense for the Ecclesiarchy to have a Rogue Trader who is a) already a staunchly faithful person and b) owes them... well, everything.

See the quote at the beginning of this post... again, yes, while that only mentions Sisters moving on to "higher callings", it's not out of the realm of feasibility that one such "higher calling", as determined by the Ecclesiarchy, is as the founder of a Rogue Trader dynasty in service to the Imperial Cult.

The Cardinals in question could even, with the proper honeyed words, convince a Sister that she really does want to leave the Order and become a Rogue Trader, because the Church believes that the Emperor has great plans for her, great things in store for her future if she serves the Church in bringing the Light of Him on Terra to the far-flung blah-blah-blah...

...we all know how Ecclesiarchs work.

That's more or less how I imagined it. It's not that my fabled Sister Sally WANTED to be a rogue trader, she was just picked by the higher ups as a pawn...a means to get their hands on some significant naval power. And in her adventures captaining a mighty starship, she's always accompanied by some Ecclesiarchal "advisors." Finally, as she sadly leaves behind no living heirs, her ship and warrant of trade will be willed to her good friend Sister Jemima. And the cycle repeats ad nauseum.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Interesting, I've never read anywhere that the Sisters actually owned these ships, I thought they were reqisitioned (as the IG often requisitions Valkyries or Vendettas).

Aye, this is one of these things that get rarely touched upon - SoB fluff is few and far between already, and for such details you really have to dig deep. I think they only get mentioned in the 1E rulebook's background section, in the 2E Codex Imperialis, and in a later WD (as well as various novels or computer games, though these sources are of course disputable, given that they are not studio canon).

I really hope that the upcoming Codices - either the WD one or the real book (hoping that the rumours are true) - will include at least a few lines about this aspect of the Sisterhood. It's bad when so many relatively important details of their existence are only found in sources that are so old that their validity may be called in doubt.

That the IG has to rely on the Navy for such things is a result of the split that occurred after the Horus Heresy - just like the Space Marines, the Inquisition or the Mechanicus, the Adepta Sororitas are an organization for themselves. There's the Decree Passive, but not knowing what GW intends for the Sisters' future, it can be interpreted in more than one way. I think the concept of lightly armed SoB transports came up because they wanted to bring the fleets mentioned in earlier fluff "in line" with the limitations that were introduced later on rather than outright retconning anything?

On the other hand, the thought of a warship where all gunners and/or officers are women but the deckhands are men just so the Ecclesiarchy can say they're following the law is somewhat amusing.

Didn't the "Hammer of Thor" receive a WD article? I don't have that particular issue, but I suppose it would say something about the topic. :/

Psienesis wrote:Also, read the last line of the first paragraph of your quote there:

Yes, higher office - within the Imperium. They don't just go, they continue to serve - and I'm pretty sure that such a transfer has to be approved by the Abbess/Prioress (who may grant or reject it depending on what the Sororitas gain from this - political power games are not unknown to the Sisters, especially in the higher ranks).

Psienesis wrote:[...] but whether or not using the fork with the blue handle around Yuletide requires a minor penance or castigation of the flesh is probably down to the individual Canoness at the site.

If you mean the degree of punishment: maybe. But if you mean if it should be punished at all, I'd have to disagree. That's not how it's written, and such differences would create tension with Sisters transferring to and from other locations. Sororitas convents are extremely isolated (so much so that only the Canoness and her most trusted Sisters Superior are even allowed to venture beyond its walls), so they are not really in a position to adopt local culture. It's part of the rift between the Sisterhood and the people they protect.

The Order of the Sacred Rose added a dozen Repressors to their armoury they were gifted from the local Arbites for helping put down a riot on Avignor - this breach of the rules created so much internal debate that the matter was brought before the Holy Synod of Terra itself, where the Prioress ruled that rather than taking the Repressors away from the Sacred Rose again, every Order should be able to get them.

Just to show how serious they take their one great book. I don't think it's impossible that each Order adds one or two lines or that a Canoness may interpret a wording differently, but the uniformity and networking between the convents would keep obvious divergence to a minimum.

Yeah... no one leaves the Imperium. There's nowhere else to go, after all. A Sister leaves the Order and becomes... whatever. An Adept on an Administratum file-world, overseeing the books of planetary tithes for a sector. A Medicalos in a private, up-Hive cosmetic surgery/rejuvenat clinic on some minor Hive World in the Segmentum Solar. An Inquisitor (well, Interrogator first... it's impossible for an outsider to know all the ins and outs of the =I= without training under someone). Planetary governor of some newly-founded colony on what may become, centuries hence, a Shrine World. A housewife on Planet Iowa. A Rogue Trader. A... uh... whatever passes for a pop-star in the Imperium.

There's also going to be a point where, for the Sisters Militant, especially, that battle injury is going to be to the extent that she'll simply not qualify for any role within the Sisterhood. Mayhaps she required (or underwent, regardless) cybernetic resurrection. Mayhaps she's undergone the Rites of Setesh and is a really, really poor-man's version of a Dreadnought (gods below, would I pray for death's merciful release with such a fate...). At this point, you now have a Sister that is, for all intents and purposes, unsuitable for the mission profiles that the Sisterhood takes on. Unable to fight, due to crippling injury (and the possibility that she no longer fits into her power armor because her frame is suspended in some metal monstrosity), unable to provide medical care as a Hospitaler because her augmetic limbs lack the dexterity required, and unable to serve the Dialogous because her new eyes only see in the infra-red and ultra-violet spectrums, she's never going to be chosen to be an ambassador or live-in tutor for a family associated to the Ordo Famulous because, let's face it, full-conversion cyborgs in the Imperium are freaking scary.

I'm certainly not suggesting one is going to drop out of the Girls' School and run off to Necromunda to become an obscura dealer! One *might* go to work with the Arbites, I suppose, in one of several roles I can see a Sister's knowledge and experiences being particularly well-suited.

Then, coming back around to my original point, the Sisterhood is not well-served by forcing everyone that ever gets in to remain forever until they die. Yes, the Progenium girls getting into the Order at a young age are going to be well-qualified for entry... but it's inevitable that a few of these are going to be ones who "just squeaked by" the entrance exams.

Alternately, maybe they had a few... clandestine, extra-curricular activities during their time in the Scholam that does not mesh well with the ascetic lifestyle of the Sisterhood and is unable to shake it. For whatever reason, they want to *live*... fall in love, get married in the Imperial Church, have kids, have a husband, have a life, and so forth and so on.

It doesn't serve the Sisterhood to repress that, because it calls into question other aspects of the Imperial Creed and the dogma and doctrine of the Ecclesiarchy, and may lead to a schism over the practice. The Sister in question, then, becomes something of a martyr (quite possibly literally) for divergent views within the Ecclesiarchy (which are well-documented within the 40K fluff). Far better to let such a one go off and do her own thing and not make a big fuss over it, since she's "obviously not cut out for the life of a Sister of Battle", or whatever the line will be they tell themselves.

Related, again, to this point, is that, when dealing with people like this, unless you completely mind-wipe them, such feelings could be considered a "chink in the armor". Regardless of the penances assigned or punishments inflicted, it may be that the individual remains convinced that they're right, the Sisterhood is wrong, and they really, really want to live a normal human life in the Imperium. Keeping such a person around, (for it is highly unlikely that expressing the desire to follow the teachings of the Church to raise a family in the Emperor's Light will result in a capital sentence... again, such a thing is akin to declaring that portion of the Creed to be an offense) is both bad for morale and, also, tactically unsound. These are the sorts of people that daemons of one stripe or another will be drawn to, because the seed of doubt has already been planted.

Heck, were I a Lord of Change or even Tzeentch itself, I would find such a individual and send one of my legion in the form of some powerfully-built, beautiful winged man in gleaming golden power armor with a leonine mane of blond hair (like... Fabio, in power armor) to bring "the true word of the Emperor" and play upon those doubts. Feed that resentment and anger until it starts another Schism. Sure, it's probable that it won't get to that point but... then again, as Tzeentch, I can all but ensure that it would. I am the Architect of Fate, after all.

Sheesh, could you imagine someone ordered to become a Sister Repentia being in thrall to Tzeentch through one of its tricksy, looks-like-a-divine-angel daemons? Things could go very, very badly for the Sisterhood in such a situation, and not just on that battlefield. All it would take, really, is for fighting to break out amongst the Sisters in view of other Imperial forces (like the IG in that theatre of war) or to attack said Imperial forces while screaming at them to repent, decrying them as heretics and traitors, and so forth and so on, to do unimaginable damage to the morale of the Imperial forces so gathered... not to mention call into question the entire organization in the eyes of many.

As a self-defense mechanism, it only makes sense for the Sisterhood to have an "out" for members who just aren't getting on well in the ranks. Of course, the "out" might be to guide them into service in other Imperial organizations, rather than just cutting them loose entirely... but, even then, being placed in a position of some authority within the Administratum or even within the Inquisition, if not as an Inquisitor, affords the opportunity for a fairly normal life. Sure, the =I= is pretty byzantine and every member of it is possessed with a great degree of paranoia (it's only healthy, after all)... but not everyone in it is an Inquisitor. There's librarians (the non-psyker kind), file clerks, wargear-maintainers, report collators, security forces, drill instructors, heck, instructors of all sorts of stuff the =I= gets up to... coffee-getters, floor-polishers, servo-skull-buffers and a million other tasks... but these people still have social lives and families.

Lastly, and this is more of a meta-gaming point, it just makes for better story, and allows GW more freedom in future tales and products without having to ret-con things to any great degree.

Psienesis wrote:Yeah... no one leaves the Imperium. There's nowhere else to go, after all.

That's not what I meant. A Sister leaving the Adepta Sororitas could only ever go serve in another Imperial organization such as the Inquisition or maybe the Adeptus Terra mentioned in the text. This way, she would continue to serve the Emperor whilst simultaneously also increasing the connections and political pull of the Sisterhood, whose leaders would surely have to approve of any such an exceptional event.
Quitting the Sororitas to open a shop and make money (?!) or even start a family ... that'd be an utterly alien thought to the Sisters - they'd leave their purpose, their family, their faith behind. Apart from the immense resources invested into her training and upbringing, I don't see any reason why a Sister would literally throw her entire life away to commit such a treasonous act, when she doesn't even know what the "world outside" looks like. The few glimpses of daily life the Sororitas catch up whilst on a mission are filled with misery and pointlessness, only strenghtening the conviction that they "have it better" than the common girl on the streets, whose only girl is to survive another day, like some animal. Not every human in the Imperium lives like that, but the Sisters don't really deploy on vacation beaches to chat with the middle classes. Rather, they accompany impoverished pilgrims, put down mutant uprisings, burn heretical cities, witness the corruption and egoism of the nobility, and tend to malnourished sick workers in the mines. Convent life isn't so bad when you follow this perspective.

Psienesis wrote:There's also going to be a point where, for the Sisters Militant, especially, that battle injury is going to be to the extent that she'll simply not qualify for any role within the Sisterhood. Mayhaps she required (or underwent, regardless) cybernetic resurrection.

Cybernetic Resurrection? Apart from the Rite of Setesh being an invention by the RPG* (and one done by the Mechanicus, with which the Sororitas are not really on best terms), the very thought of subjecting a loyal Sister's broken body to such a dire fate is outright heretical. A Sister's greatest hope is martyrdom in the pursuit of a holy cause, as this would ensure her place at the Emperor's side. I really do not think the Sororitas would permit anyone to interfere with such calling. Dead is dead.

And if a Sister is merely crippled beyond the Hospitallers' abilities to mend - which should really not happen all that often (what kind of injury would that be?) - the Sisterhood would still have a place for her. Even if all she can do is watching the novices not slipping up during copy sessions in the scriptorium. Though I guess that someone with valued wisdom and experience would rather be called upon as a tutor, perhaps joining one of the many Scholas to train the next generation of Sororitas.

(*: Ironically, whilst the RPG does deviate a bit from GW canon in a few important areas when it comes to the Adepta Sororitas, even this licensed product outright states that you could leave ... but only as long as you've not yet begun the novitiate. IH p42)

Psienesis wrote:Then, coming back around to my original point, the Sisterhood is not well-served by forcing everyone that ever gets in to remain forever until they die. Yes, the Progenium girls getting into the Order at a young age are going to be well-qualified for entry... but it's inevitable that a few of these are going to be ones who "just squeaked by" the entrance exams.

Why is that inevitable? That's just like saying there absolutely have to be a bunch of rebels in every Marine Chapter. And given the array of punishment, the very culture of raising pain to the position of a virtue, I'm fairly sure that anyone who could get out would do so in the very first days. In the end, a girl joining the Sororitas has sworn a vow, and breaking vows in the Imperium is usually considered unhealthy.

Psienesis wrote:Alternately, maybe they had a few... clandestine, extra-curricular activities during their time in the Scholam that does not mesh well with the ascetic lifestyle of the Sisterhood and is unable to shake it. For whatever reason, they want to *live*... fall in love, get married in the Imperial Church, have kids, have a husband, have a life, and so forth and so on. It doesn't serve the Sisterhood to repress that, because it calls into question other aspects of the Imperial Creed and the dogma and doctrine of the Ecclesiarchy, and may lead to a schism over the practice.

From the Codex:

The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.

Psienesis wrote:for it is highly unlikely that expressing the desire to follow the teachings of the Church to raise a family in the Emperor's Light will result in a capital sentence

The conviction that the Sororitas and thus, by extension, the Church is "wrong" IS heresy. Full stop.

Psienesis wrote:Lastly, and this is more of a meta-gaming point, it just makes for better story, and allows GW more freedom in future tales and products without having to ret-con things to any great degree.

Ah, but you do retcon things. By a great degree. This level of freedom simply takes away from the core concept of the Sisterhood: of surrendering oneself to the holy cause, of becoming an indoctrinated zealot, of religion being able to brainwash people and turn them into blind slaves of the Imperium's vast machinery.

I do understand the lure of changing aspects of the setting under the conviction that they would "make for a better story" (obviously subject to personal preferences!) - novel authors have done that, too. But in the end, it's not really that different from female Marines or whatever. When virtually every piece of studio material paints the image of "Sista 4 life" and there is not a single example in the fluff of what you claim would be perfectly okay, you just won't be able to convince me. I maintain that a Sister displaying a desire to be freed from the chains of the Ecclesiarchy would be deemed sick and in need of spiritual help, not granted leave to forsake her immortal soul.

@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.

Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law. In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind. These two reasons are why I find it difficult to credit such an exemption, even for such minor vessels.

I maintain that a Sister displaying a desire to be freed from the chains of the Ecclesiarchy would be deemed sick and in need of spiritual help, not granted leave to forsake her immortal soul.

Lynata has summed up the argument very well, better than I could at any rate. I agree with the notion that the Ecclesiarchy may have a vested interest in having a group of 'private citizens' which are actually all ex-Sisters, operating as directed. But I simply don't see Sisters being allowed to leave, or even transfer, on their own violition.

Emperors Faithful wrote:@Lynata: Actually, having women man the ships just wouldn't cut it. The Decree Passive expressly denied the Ecclessiarchy its own fleet assests, the Ordos Militant is the Ecclessiarchies way of worming out a 'standing army' by twisting the meaning of thee word "men-under-arms", but it's not possible to do the same with Naval Assests. The wording for ships was not so obscure.

Wasn't the Decree Passive not dealing solely with the "men-under-arms" part? I don't recall any wording regarding the fleets at all - only that Thor had disbanded them as well as the Frateris Templar as part of the reformation, but not that this was part of the actual resolution. As far as I know, the disbanding happened before the Decree Passive was even issued. Basically, that the law was not meant for dealing with the "now" but rather with the future, in that it was supposed to prevent the Ecclesiarchy from becoming dangerous again.

Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Furtermore IG and the IN is age-old practice since the Horus Heresy, the Decree Passive is much more recent, and much more closely followed, Imperial Law.

Mhm. While the Decree is a more recent law, I think the very existence of the Orders Militant is a much more obvious breach than the few exceptions sort-of violating the wedge between Guard and Navy (i.e. certain regiments being allowed to have their own dropships).

Emperors Faithful wrote:In fact the Ordo Hereticus was in part created with the goal of regulating the Decree in mind.

Indeed - however, this is one of the things that I think were the reason behind the Convocation of Nephilim. The Ordo Hereticus growing sceptical of the Ecclesiarchy's military might, but then reaching a consensus by claiming their right to use them as their Chamber Militant, as well as privileged access to the many other services of the Sororitas (medical skills, social connections, research, etc).

I see your points, but the above thoughts and a never truly retconned existence of SoB fleets in the canon make me hold on to what I've read, for the moment. And despite licensed products not being hard canon, I find the usage of SoB ships and aircraft in those 3rd party products I've seen so far rather fitting for the greater picture. Hears hoping that the ambiguity will be resolved with future GW material!

From the Codex:

The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial Nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain.

We know from other sources that the Schola Progenium is not, however, divided by gender. Much mention is made of Commissars-to-be flirting with Sisters of Battle-to-be. It's, basically, a pretty exclusive military boarding school for children of both genders... and kids go about being kids while receiving the best education the Imperium can provide.

They have gender-divided dormitories, of course, but the image given is that some/many classes are shared between the two. After all, the Schola Progenium also gives rise to Stormtroopers and Commissars, as well as high-ranking Adepts, Clerics and other functionaries.

Why would the gap with "men-under-arms" even exist if the Decree Passive would deal in terms like "fleets", meaning why would they use that word and then forego "armies"? It would be quite weird if the Decree would allow the Ecclesiarchy to keep several thousand women armed with Astartes-grade wargear, but forbid them from owning some transports to move them or even just their own missionaries.

'Cause you can Exterminatus a planet-bound army if they get out of hand.... or simply destroy them from orbit in a slightly-less-permanent (for the planet, not the army) fashion.

Psienesis wrote:We know from other sources that the Schola Progenium is not, however, divided by gender. Much mention is made of Commissars-to-be flirting with Sisters of Battle-to-be.

Novels aren't canon. So sayeth Gav Thorpe, George Mann and Aaron Dembski-Bowden. Though I'm sure more statements can be found somewhere.
Only stuff that comes directly from the studio is actually official. Which is why so many licensed products contradict each other.

Codex material doesn't suddenly get invalidated just because some writer comes along and either doesn't read up on the material he's working with or simply thinks his idea is superior to what GW came up with. Such as Space Marines with multilasers, backflipping Terminators or Sisters of Battle who have apparently nothing better to do than getting drunk and playing games of luck and getting laid, regardless of what 20 years of canon say about them.

And if you insist that novels are canon I can show you one where the Ecclesiarchy has battlecruisers.

'Cause you can Exterminatus a planet-bound army if they get out of hand.... or simply destroy them from orbit in a slightly-less-permanent (for the planet, not the army) fashion.

So you're saying they've thrown in the "no men under arms" just for lulz and not because they actually wanted to keep the Ecclesiarchy from raising a new army?

So you're saying they've thrown in the "no men under arms" just for lulz and not because they actually wanted to keep the Ecclesiarchy from raising a new army?

No...

What it does, however, is prevent the Ecclesiarchy from having possession of a fleet of servitor-piloted vessels, or piloted entirely by women, or Rogue Trader armadas under direct, exclusive contract, or having a roaming fleet of Ecclesiarchy-bought battle-cruisers from where Vandire Mark II floats around, preaching his heresy.

It also means that, if the Ecclesiarch goes about violating the Decree by raising an army, it's not done under the cover of a fleet of ships, loyal to the Ecclesiarchy, flying around the galaxy picking up people from out-system worlds, frontier worlds, and so forth... then depositing them on some distant, overlooked Shrine World that's been converted into a training area/staging ground now defended by however large a fleet they've managed to build (the Ecclesiarchy is rich... that could be a whole lotta ships!).

Thus, it confines the Ecclesiarchy to those worlds it's already on, and limits the worlds they can easily expand to quickly, since they're required to use Naval ships under contract, who have the means to inform other authorities, "Hey, uh, Inquisitor? These preachers here want a ride to Fortress Planet Lostinspace... and they have 50,000 guys with guns with them. Uh, should we give them a ride?". The Ecclesiarchy is obviously not going to attempt to violate the Decree on planets they know are being watched, it's too easily stopped at early stages.

Vandire Mark 2 might rise up on Planet Uarehere, but without a fleet of mention to defend it... he's not much of a threat. At worst, they glass the place from orbit and roll on.