This is my take on how the stats and such should be changed. Feel free to comment and make your own suggestions. But first, here are my impressions.

Presently storm troopers are not that great. If used, they usually deepstrike with melta weapons. Suicide units if you will. In addition to this, they are expensive for a unit that cant offer much. For 16pts a pop after the inital 85 for a 5 man squad, you get a Veteran guardsman in caraprace armor, with a hot-shot lasgun. Veterans are 7 points per man, and the entire suad can have the same armor for 30 more points making them essentially 10 points each. Lets not forget veterans can have 3 special weapons and a heavy weapon. So for 100 points you get 10 veterans with more options, compared to 5 stormies with less options for 85 points. When in comparison to space marines: a tactical squad is 90 pts. thats 18 per space marine. SO for 2 more points you get +1 WS, I, Ld, S, T and power armor. Seems like a deal compared to the price tag of a stormie right? And of course the SM have access to more equipment as well.

According to the fluff, storm troopers are trained since thier youth. Thier skills are second to none, and is the best humanity has to offer before space marines. They love the empeor with the upmost zeal. They spearhead assults and get key objectives and move from one place to another in rapid succession/ deployment. Awesome, but thier current stats have nothing to show for this.

Now with all I said, (there was a purpose for all of it i promise) stormies need to be buffed outright.

Thier current stats are the following:

WS: 3
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 7 (8 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 18" S3, AP3 Rapid Fire

I strongly believe the stats should look like the following:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 8 (9 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 24" S4, AP3 Rapid Fire OR 18" S4, AP 6 Assualt 3 Pinning

And now my explanations.
Weapon Skill: C'mon trained since infancy and the current stormies ony have a WS of 3? They are considered the special forces/ navy seals of the IG. Thats just dumb. A regular guardsman that has only trained for about 2 or 3 months has a WS of 3. So to show for it I made the WS 4.
Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Initiative, Attacks, Armor Save: Keep the same. Nothing wrong with where thay are at presently.
Leadership: They have a zeal for the emperor. Again, they are the perfect guardsman and etc. They are trained in the same schools where commisars are from. Makes sence to give them a leadership of 8 (9 for sergeant).
Weapon: These are shock/ assault troops. It only makes sense to give them an assult weapon. THe stats I proposed above just makes complete sense for thier role. They should be able to switch thier weapons to fit the situationn they are tasked with. Since thier guns have a higher potancy than normal lasguns it makes sense that they can switch from the powerful shot to thehigher volume shots. The description even says "a more moreful" (meaning Stregnth wise) "and more penatrating" (AP value) "shot".Thats why I think the S should be 4 instead of the crappy 3 as it is now. SO at rapid fire they can make more shots at the enemy at the range of 18" and they should be pinning due to the amount of shots taken. They should still only be able to take assault weapons, as it would make no sense giving them heavy weapons for the role they are supposed to be for.

Special rules: Furios Charge or stubborn

Now for the special operations, I like how it is, but should be changed a bit. Behind enemy lines should be just infiltrarte, as the pinning is useless due to the proposed stats of thier weapon. Ideas welcome here.

In apocalypse games stormies have a formation that gives them a special rule. It allows them to shoot, run, and shoot again (at a different target if they want). Also there is a -1 penalty to cover saves. Note that is is only when they disenbark from thier transport. I dont know if this rule should be standard or maybe an upgrade somehow, but it makes for a very interesting option. What do you think?

Valkyries as dedicated transports? You decide.

The cost for some of the assault weapon options they have, should be changed. If an AP 3 weapon is so valuable why should you pay more to swap it out for a flamer or grenade launcher? WHy pay full price for a melta or plasma gun?

Grenade Launcher: Free
Flamer: Free
Plasma Gun: 10 pts
Melta Gun: 5 pts

Plasma Pistol: 5 points

Now for the points value. Either keep them as is or maybe cost them out to be be 17-18 pts for the additional stormie after the initial 5 man team. Hell make the 5 man 90 points if you think its undercosted.

With the improvements made, we now have a fun, competetive unit for the Elite choice. They are marines minus the S, T armor save, and the all-round Ld 9. The buffed up hot shots makes up for this I think, and makes the storm trooper well worth 16-18 points each, and while they are no space marine, they should have the balls and equipent to take em down. SO now tell me, what do YOU think? Do my suggestions make sense? WHat should be tweaked? Do you have other ideas that should be done? PLEASE Feel free to comment my proposed rules and give me your thoughts or even your proposed rules. Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoyed it.

Storm Troopers are not Veterans, and yet everyone keeps comparing them to eachother. I honestly don't see any problems with the current Storm Troopers and giving them S4 AP3 weapons would just be crazy IMO. Valkyries as dedicated transports sounds decent enough though.

Yes indeed they are not veterans. But veterans have more options, and can have more models for less. I was jut comparing point costs and available options What makes stormies different is thier weapon. But it seems like they only have one role lately, which is deep striking a 5 man squad with melta guns for 105 pts, and in turn making thier special weapon (hotshots) that you are paying for useless. How would S4 AP 3 weapons be overpowered? Thousand Sons have the same kind of weapon with a longer range (24"). WHat makes them more expensive is the 4++ invunerable save, fearless, are troops, and have unique upgrades at about 23 pts per model if you want to compare points. What if the new proposed rule I made for the gun had the Gets Hot! rule. Would that be more fair? Should they cost more with proposed rules and how much?

***In second edition, Stormies came with power packs. This gave thier weapons +1 S to thier lasguns. WHat if this was an upgrade for say about 2-3 pts per model, and make the hot shots barebones S3 without htis upgrade. Fair now?

AP 3 is over powered, IMHO. Otherwise, your proposals seem fair enough. What were you thinking on the points side of things?

cosmic pixie wrote:AP 3 is over powered, IMHO. Otherwise, your proposals seem fair enough. What were you thinking on the points side of things?

AP3 is not over powered.
It is representetive of the fluff and I think very fair for their cost.

AP 3 is not overpowered especially when there is a 4+ cover save almost everywhere. I think anywhere between 16-19 points per model would be fair if all rules I proposed where included.

I actually rather like the stats on Storm Troopers as they are, but I'd argue they ought to be a smidgen cheaper (bring them down to 13 points per model and reduce the cost of special weapons to take into account the cost they pay for hellguns) and moved over to Troops. Toss on the suggested Valkerie ( NOT Vendetta) transport and now we've got some interesting choices to work with.

Role wise they have problems though, they seem designed to take out other armies elites (use them against tau and watch battlesuits cry), but don't have quite the oomph to do it, that's ok given the rest of the IG list though.

Marc

Kasrkin52 wrote:
***In second edition, Stormies came with power packs. This gave thier weapons +1 S to thier lasguns. WHat if this was an upgrade for say about 2-3 pts per model, and make the hot shots barebones S3 without htis upgrade. Fair now?

I would take that upgrade at their current cost. It'd make me even happier with my stormies.

As for their cost, remember, its 16 ppm, and 7 ppm for vets. Vets become 10 ppm with carapace armor. For 6 ppm more, you gain a pistol and ccw with every soldier, two AP 3 weapons (hot shot pistol and hot shot lasgun), and the Spec Ops rule, which allows the stormies to perform a varied set of objectives, from infiltrating onto an objective to make the enemy fight for it from the get go to deep striking behind enemy lines to get at nasty targets like, for example, Long Fangs or enemy tanks(if your paid for melta or plasma).

I'm content with what they do. They're the guard version of sternguard imho. Use them to draw enemy fire so your tanks and soldiers can close the distance. If they decided to ignore your stormies, theyre the ones paying the price, since next turn they're liable to eat 16-20 AP 2/3 shots.

I would still err on the side of caution with the AP3 - I'd certainly not go down to 2 - a squad of guard with weapons that are essentially plasma without 'instant death' or 'gets hot' would be overpowered. Even so, at AP3 they will be very strong - that sort of power at rapid fire ranges would be devastating to anything but Termies - which should certainly be a job for mass fire or heavy weaponry - neither of which are the purpose of Storm Troopers.

...AP 3 is already the value used by the hot-shot lasguns described in C:IG, I don't see why we should be cautious with what is already stated black on white in the book? It's not like it's new.

Personally

same cost with S4 HSLGs

or just make then cheaper

I agree with most of what you have up there.... except they should keep their Ld but get Stubborn special rule. Also I think Hellgun stats should be: S4 AP4 Assault 2. According to the fluff, Hellgun is stronger and penetrates armour better. However, having Hellguns penetrate power armour is too much. What is the point of the best Astartes war plate is some Guardsmen can penetrate it easily?

Diesel Stradin wrote:I agree with most of what you have up there.... except they should keep their Ld but get Stubborn special rule. Also I think Hellgun stats should be: S4 AP4 Assault 2. According to the fluff, Hellgun is stronger and penetrates armour better. However, having Hellguns penetrate power armour is too much. What is the point of the best Astartes war plate is some Guardsmen can penetrate it easily?

Hellguns aren't issued in huge numbers, first of all. And it does penetrate Power Armour.
Astartes warplate can stop Lasguns, but not en masse.

I have to agree that ST aren't bad....they just can't compete with Veterans. 6.5ppm for hell weapons, ccws, and a specops is quite good, if they didn't cost as much as a marine. I think that's the problem GW has w/ units that carry AP3 guns, competition. Look at the Tau Vespid and Sniper Drone Team, and the Chaos Thousand Son, not bad just outclassed. I think that they'd be better off cheaper or giving hellguns S4. Even then they're only wounding marines half the time.

Diesel Stradin wrote:I agree with most of what you have up there.... except they should keep their Ld but get Stubborn special rule. Also I think Hellgun stats should be: S4 AP4 Assault 2. According to the fluff, Hellgun is stronger and penetrates armour better. However, having Hellguns penetrate power armour is too much. What is the point of the best Astartes war plate is some Guardsmen can penetrate it easily?

Thanks for the comments. Ok, I can see how they might have the stubborn rule, as they are trained in the same schools as the commisars, and most go on to be one. In regards to what you said about guardsmen killing space marines easily - - the answer is simple, they can kill chaos space marines and the like

I really love, everything you have stated. I feel this goes completely with the fluff without making them stupidly OP. This would make me want to take them more often.

WS 4: ok in my book, they were raised for war from birth
Int 4: probly no on the simple basis that GW doesnt like giving humans a fast reflex...why IDK.
Ld 8/9: Probly best to give them Ld: 7/8 and give them stubborn. Very dedicated but just a bit shy of the commisar fanaticalism.

Weapons: I dont agree with GW going against the grain and giving stormtroopers AP3 weaponery at str 3. It seems like a poorly thoughtout way of giving guard anti-MEQ. It needs to change in either a str increase or an AP decrease because i cant see fluff wise how that makes sense. Or just a change in general, this can go alot of ways...

Valk's: good idea (rouge thought: why not move the valk's into dedicated transports in the first place? *picked up from a thread several mounths ago)

points cost: 16-15 pts.

Space Marines train for centuries to get to WS 4, and they're superhuman. The scale simply lacks enough steps to accommodate the difference between "trained human" and "expert human" when going from 3 to 4 is the difference between "trained human" and "expert superhuman".

For Initiative, see the recent (admittedly crappy) Sisters of Battle. Celestians and Seraphim have similar levels of training to Storm Troopers, and they all got nuked back down to I3. Clearly, training doesn't help enough to make up the difference between "human" (3) and "superhuman" (4).

On the other hand, giving them Stubborn seems completely appropriate, as does having Valkyries as dedicated transports.

kadeton wrote:Space Marines train for centuries to get to WS 4, and they're superhuman. The scale simply lacks enough steps to accommodate the difference between "trained human" and "expert human" when going from 3 to 4 is the difference between "trained human" and "expert superhuman".

For Initiative, see the recent (admittedly crappy) Sisters of Battle. Celestians and Seraphim have similar levels of training to Storm Troopers, and they all got nuked back down to I3. Clearly, training doesn't help enough to make up the difference between "human" (3) and "superhuman" (4).

On the other hand, giving them Stubborn seems completely appropriate, as does having Valkyries as dedicated transports.

Can an inquisitor (not superhuman, not really centuries old) be used? Because they're WS 4 and Ini 4.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

kadeton wrote:Space Marines train for centuries to get to WS 4, and they're superhuman. The scale simply lacks enough steps to accommodate the difference between "trained human" and "expert human" when going from 3 to 4 is the difference between "trained human" and "expert superhuman".

For Initiative, see the recent (admittedly crappy) Sisters of Battle. Celestians and Seraphim have similar levels of training to Storm Troopers, and they all got nuked back down to I3. Clearly, training doesn't help enough to make up the difference between "human" (3) and "superhuman" (4).

On the other hand, giving them Stubborn seems completely appropriate, as does having Valkyries as dedicated transports.

Can an inquisitor (not superhuman, not really centuries old) be used? Because they're WS 4 and Ini 4.

Considering the kind of stuff an Inquisitor will have access to, I'd say they don't count.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Can an inquisitor (not superhuman, not really centuries old) be used? Because they're WS 4 and Ini 4.

Characters can't really be used in any sense, because they're exceptional examples of their species. I mean, Saint Celestine is technically only human, and she has WS and I of 7, but I wouldn't use that as an argument that all Seraphim should be on par with her.

I always thought they should be similar to sternguard ie
different weapon effects depending on range ie

0 - 12" s5 ap3
12 - 18 s4 ap 4
18 - 24 s3 ap 5

to simulate changing the power settings on their weapons or the loss of power over range, or maybe you could forego rapid firing for 1 super shot each up to 12 inches ie s5 ap 3

i agree with the OP stormtroopers should be more elite

shakey787 wrote:I always thought they should be similar to sternguard ie
different weapon effects depending on range ie

0 - 12" s5 ap3
12 - 18 s4 ap 4
18 - 24 s3 ap 5

to simulate changing the power settings on their weapons or the loss of power over range, or maybe you could forego rapid firing for 1 super shot each up to 12 inches ie s5 ap 3

i agree with the OP stormtroopers should be more elite

i like your idea but str 5 is too high IMO i would go for somthing like this

0-12" s4 AP3
12-18" s4 ap4
18-24" s3 ap5

It all makes sense, and make stormtroopers viable without stormicide. Take it to GW. Now.

@kadeton: so vetran guardsmen have trained for centruries to get BS4? Basic commisars, vetran bodyguards, and PCS/CS get WS and BS of 4 and they are probly recieving the same amount of training time as storm troopers. These are not just troopers, these are "the best of the best guard".
As a counter point to the fact that the GW scale is small is that Stormtroopers are not a high 3 but a low 4 in my opnion.

They may be exceptional members of their species...

...but I was under the impression that Storm Troopers were exceptional as well.

king-newmic wrote:@kadeton: so vetran guardsmen have trained for centruries to get BS4? Basic commisars, vetran bodyguards, and PCS/CS get WS and BS of 4 and they are probly recieving the same amount of training time as storm troopers. These are not just troopers, these are "the best of the best guard".
As a counter point to the fact that the GW scale is small is that Stormtroopers are not a high 3 but a low 4 in my opnion.

I think it's pretty standard that BS is easier to get than WS across most races. BS 4 is a lot less special than WS 4. Everyone and his dog gets BS 4. Presumably it's because sights, targeters, recoil compensators and so on are easier to obtain than superhuman hand-to-hand fighting skills.

Storm Troopers aren't the "best of the best" guard. They're the "best fighting force". The actual "best of the best" are exactly what you listed there: Commissars, Bodyguards, and Commanders. There aren't enough people of that caliber to actually form an entire fighting force, so the Storm Troopers are as good as it gets for rank-and-file... and WS 3 is apparently as good as it gets.

Their fluff is mostly about their skill with guns, going on about "fierce firefights", "guns blazing" and "precision lasfire". It doesn't say anything about being able to stand toe-to-toe with a Space Marine.

Zalmout wrote:I really love, everything you have stated. I feel this goes completely with the fluff without making them stupidly OP. This would make me want to take them more often.

Thanks for the comments, Im glad you enjoyed the read.

liquidjoshi wrote:It all makes sense, and make stormtroopers viable without stormicide. Take it to GW. Now.

Thanks, I really hope they make some changes in the next edition.

king-newmic wrote:@kadeton: so vetran guardsmen have trained for centruries to get BS4? Basic commisars, vetran bodyguards, and PCS/CS get WS and BS of 4 and they are probly recieving the same amount of training time as storm troopers. These are not just troopers, these are "the best of the best guard".
As a counter point to the fact that the GW scale is small is that Stormtroopers are not a high 3 but a low 4 in my opnion.

You got it spot on. I was going to say the same.

I forgot to add comments on the cost options of the assault weapons they can take. I edited the first post and will put my comments here as well. I beleive the Flamer and Grenade launcher should be a free swap. The melta gun, plasma gun, and plasma pistol should be reduced by 5 pts. Agree, disagree?

Came up with something similar here, with a few exceptions (just ignore the other units and custom weapons).

I've always thought they should be as such

WS4 BS4 S3 T3 I3 A1(2 for serg) Ld8(9 on serg) Sv4+

Gun: S3 AP5 Assault 3 18", possibly Pinning

Special Rule:
Deep Strike
Infiltrate
Scout
Furious Charge

Wargear:
Carapace Armor
Pistol
Hellgun
CCW
Frag/Krak

Make them 70pts for 5, 130pts for 10.

This would enable them to actually fulfill the role of an actual "stormtrooper", elite infantry that engage the enemy at close range with short range, high RoF weapons and clear enemy positions by assault for exploitation by heavier/mobile forces. It'd make them decent enough as an assault unit to clear some units, but not enough to make them as scary assault unit like Berzerkers or something which IG really shouldn't have, and make them shooty/mobile enough to fit the rest of the army and perform theri function adequately.



As is, they're a gimped MEQ hunter unit whose best role is as a min sized suicide tank hunter group.

Kasrkin52 wrote:
Presently storm troopers are not that great. If used, they usually deepstrike with melta weapons. Suicide units if you will.

You say this as if there is something bad about that. Also, they don't always suicide. They take a surprising amount of fire, especially if you have them go to ground. But let's read on.

In addition to this, they are expensive for a unit that cant offer much. For 16pts a pop after the inital 85 for a 5 man squad, you get a Veteran guardsman in caraprace armor, with a hot-shot lasgun. Veterans

Full stop. Storm Troopers aren't supposed to be Veterans. They satisfy different roles.

Next thing I hear, you'll be wanting to make them scoring.

are 7 points per man, and the entire suad can have the same armor for 30 more points making them essentially 10 points each. Lets not forget veterans can have 3 special weapons and a heavy weapon. So for 100 points you get 10 veterans with more options, compared to 5 stormies with less options for 85 points.

7 points = model with BS 4
3 points = carapace armor
2 points = AP3 lasgun (free exchange for bolter)
1 point = 'free' pistol
3 points = Pick a USR
Seems well worth it to me. Sometimes the value of a squad is more than it's statline.

When in comparison to space marines: a tactical squad is 90 pts. thats 18 per space marine. SO for 2 more points you get +1 WS, I, Ld, S, T and power armor. Seems like a deal compared to the price tag of a stormie right? And of course the SM have access to more equipment as well.

You're looking at a unit in a vacuum. That's a great way to achieve balance, however, by the end of the day, all of your armies will be identical. I would advise against that.

According to the fluff, storm troopers are trained since thier youth. Thier skills are second to none, and is the best humanity has to offer before space marines. They love the empeor with the upmost zeal. They spearhead assults and get key objectives and move from one place to another in rapid succession/ deployment. Awesome, but thier current stats have nothing to show for this.

Fluff is a bad thing to develop rules from, otherwise you'll have movie marines.

Now with all I said, (there was a purpose for all of it i promise) stormies need to be buffed outright.

Thier current stats are the following:

WS: 3
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 3
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 7 (8 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 18" S3, AP3 Rapid Fire

I strongly believe the stats should look like the following:

WS: 4
BS: 4
S: 3
T: 3
I: 4
A: 1/2 (pistols)
Ld: 8 (9 for sergeant)
Sv: 4+
Weapon: Hot shot lasgun - 24" S4, AP3 Rapid Fire OR 18" S4, AP 6 Assualt 3 Pinning

That's better than a Tac squad with a gun like that. Probably better than Sternguard. At least Sternguard get hot when they try to use their S4/AP3 ammo.

And now my explanations.
Weapon Skill: C'mon trained since infancy and the current stormies ony have a WS of 3? They are considered the special forces/ navy seals of the IG. Thats just dumb. A regular guardsman that has only trained for about 2 or 3 months has a WS of 3. So to show for it I made the WS 4.

This isn't a HUGE boost. I'll give you that one. They SHOULD be at least a little more elite than Veterans.

Ballistic Skill, Strength, Toughness, Attacks, Armor Save: Keep the same. Nothing wrong with where thay are at presently.
Initiative: Again trained since infacny. The perfect guardsman: Trained to the peak. I think they should have a better reaction time than the average guardsman. So I of 4 makes sense to me for this.
Leadership: They have a zeal for the emperor. Again, they are the perfect guardsman and etc. They are trained in the same schools where commisars are from. Makes sence to give them a leadership of 8 (9 for sergeant).

I'll give you the leadership. Initiative makes no sense though. They're still humans, and that's a hell of a bonus.

Weapon: These are shock/ assault troops. It only makes sense to give them an assult weapon. THe stats I proposed above just makes complete sense for thier role. They should be able to switch thier weapons to fit the situationn they are tasked with. Since thier guns have a higher potancy than normal lasguns it makes sense that they can switch from the powerful shot to thehigher volume shots. The description even says "a more moreful" (meaning Stregnth wise) "and more penatrating" (AP value) "shot".Thats why I think the S should be 4 instead of the crappy 3 as it is now. SO at rapid fire they can make more shots at the enemy at the range of 18" and they should be pinning due to the amount of shots taken. They should still only be able to take assault weapons, as it would make no sense giving them heavy weapons for the role they are supposed to be for.

But the problem is that you now have a gun at least as good as what Sternguard have, which are supposed to be the elite Space Marines. That doesn't make sense.

Now for the special operations, I like how it is, but should be changed a bit. Behind enemy lines should be just infiltrarte, as the pinning is useless due to the proposed stats of thier weapon. Ideas welcome here.

Funny, that.

In apocalypse games stormies have a formation that gives them a special rule. It allows them to shoot, run, and shoot again (at a different target if they want). Also there is a -1 penalty to cover saves. Note that is is only when they disenbark from thier transport. I dont know if this rule should be standard or maybe an upgrade somehow, but it makes for a very interesting option. What do you think?

Valkyries as dedicated transports? You decide.

Not going to touch the Apoc thing, as I have a rocky relationship with Apoc, and I fear I may be biased. Valkyries as dedicated transports is interesting though. I might actually be okay with that one, though I might have to suggest that if you were to allow that, you disallowed having Valks (and Vendettas) in squadrons. Otherwise you're skimmer spamming.

Since there is no special character that makes storm troopers a troop choice (im guessing sergeant bastonne was going to be one but didnt make the cut) they should be able to hold objectives. May be they should have a special rule like this - Take the Objective: Storm Troopers are considered troop chioces for the purpose of objective based missions without taking up slots in the FOC. I mean cmon, its explained in the codex that they storm key objectives and whatnot. Why not give them the ability to do so?

Not going to comment.

The cost for some of the assault weapon options they have, should be changed. If an AP 3 weapon is so valuable why should you pay more to swap it out for a flamer or grenade launcher? WHy pay full price for a melta or plasma gun?

Grenade Launcher: Free
Flamer: Free
Plasma Gun: 10 pts
Melta Gun: 5 pts

Plasma Pistol: 5 points

Storm Troopers are not Tac Squads. Those are too cheap and you're not building cost into the models for this. Fine, if you must, but you pay full price for the first one, and then you only even get the second one period, albeit at reduced price, if you take 10 Stormies. You want the perk, you have to accept full responsibility.

Now for the points value. Either keep them as is or maybe cost them out to be be 17 pts for the additional stormie after the initial 5 man team. Hell make the 5 man 90 points if you think its undercosted.

I'd rather not increase the price. Your idea is vastly undercosted at standard prices though.

With the improvements made, we now have a fun, competetive unit for the Elite choice. They are marines minus the S, T armor save, and the all-round Ld 9. The buffed up hot shots makes up for this I think, and makes the storm trooper well worth 16-18 points each, and while they are no space marine, they should have the balls and equipent to take em down. SO now tell me, what do YOU think? Do my suggestions make sense? WHat should be tweaked? Do you have other ideas that should be done? PLEASE Feel free to comment my proposed rules and give me your thoughts or even your proposed rules. Thanks for reading, and I hope you enjoyed it.

I think they already have the balls and equipment to take down space marines. Every time I've used them, ranging from two 5 man squads with meltas and plasmas respectively, to a 10 man squad in a chimera with meltas, they've always made their points back. Honestly, I feel like most people haven't even bothered using them; They just accept that the Internet says they're bad. They're really not. Really. They're like the ultimate trump card. "Oh, there's something I'm going to have a problem dealing with, good thing I have this thing that can outflank/deepstrike/infiltrate exactly where it needs to to get the job done." The problem is that your ideas are like the new psycannon. They would become a no-brainer, such that they demand the exclusion of any other choice.

As someone who owns damn near 200 stormtrooper models, and loves the unit concept, I've never had them really pull through as anything other than suicide melta units in min sized squads.

They get slaughtered in CC almost as easily as basic guardsmen. In a shooting war with SM's they merely manage to attain parity rather than having any sort of advnatage, and break easier, and are much more vulnerable to the majority of heavy weapons fire in the game.

There is almost nothing that you couldn't find another unit to do better than Stormtroopers.

They're given too much wargear that's value far too highly for their statline to support in order to combat units that even under optimal circumstances they can merely match and usually will be on inferior footing to.

16pts each is just too much for what they do, and even if they had their cost cut to something more reasonable like 12, they'd still be awkwardly built, they have a bunch of contradictory gear, rules and weapons options that just don't come together well except in the form of suicide DS melta units (and in which case their much-paid-for AP3 goes to waste). Account 5ppm for the carapce and hotshot is way too much. Carapace armor in this game is and always has been ubiquitously over-valued, especially for IG units.

Your changes make sense, but I think the hotshot lasgun is a bit overpowered. S4 ap3? I think theyre OK as S3 ap3.

I think that the statline you stated above, should be correct. The information you provided, with the reson is highly true in my opinion. A stormtrooper would kick a gaurdsmens ass, and yet they have the same WS and I. what up with that.

Just wondering, how (un)balanced would it be if Hotshot lasguns were R18"S4 AP3 Assault2?

In fluff, hotshot lasguns/hellguns are described as rapid-firing, hence the assault. They are also stated as piercing power armour, AP3, and for buffing reasons, S4.

Just wondering, within the fluff, is there a difference between hotshot lasgun/hellguns? I remember reading somewhere that hotshot lasguns are supposed to be next-generation hellguns, but I don't remember where.

Finally, all of the ballistics experts out there as well as people who operate firearms, is it even possible for a projectile to have more penetration power but less stopping power?

acekevin8412 wrote:
Finally, all of the ballistics experts out there as well as people who operate firearms, is it even possible for a projectile to have more penetration power but less stopping power?

Definitely yes. For example, a bullet from the Tokarev TT-33 can pierce class 3 body armor. It is, however, a terrible defensive weapon, because without a hit to the vitals, the bullet will pass clean through the human without inflicting debilitating damage.

But wouldn't going through most parts of the torso hit organs? Like the lungs, intestines, etc? And isn't it worse if the projectile penetrates through the target because then they are going to leave behind bullet hole that was larger than the entry hole?

It would probably create a sucking wound, but it's generally better to have it stuck in the target to debilitate it. Most of why the M16 is so powerful is because it hits a target and the bullet literally spins and tumbles around until it stops.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:
Finally, all of the ballistics experts out there as well as people who operate firearms, is it even possible for a projectile to have more penetration power but less stopping power?

Definitely yes. For example, a bullet from the Tokarev TT-33 can pierce class 3 body armor. It is, however, a terrible defensive weapon, because without a hit to the vitals, the bullet will pass clean through the human without inflicting debilitating damage.

That is the problem that us brits have with the SA 80 the bullet just goes straight through but does not cause that much damage

So basically, the reason that the bolter is S4 AP5 is that it can't penetrate that far, but when it does, it explodes inside the target right?

acekevin8412 wrote:But wouldn't going through most parts of the torso hit organs? Like the lungs, intestines, etc? And isn't it worse if the projectile penetrates through the target because then they are going to leave behind bullet hole that was larger than the entry hole?

That's why I said missed the vital organs. If you hit their shoulder, leg, or hip area, it'll not incapacitate them hardly at all.

As for exit wounds, an exit wound is indeed larger than an entry. But if the entry is .3 inches (7.62mm, common round) then the exit is like, .4 inches ... still not debilitating.

Alright, your explanation makes sense.

I like the statline that the OP suggested, at 18 PPM.

@daedalus

Thanks for the review. I might agree with you on some things. For example, I can understand how humans should only have an I 3 value, but what makes me irritated is the fact that a squad of veterans or even regular guardsman can defeat a squad of stormies in CC. The only advantage they have is the extra attack from a pistol.

Pomyboy wrote:I think that the statline you stated above, should be correct. The information you provided, with the reson is highly true in my opinion. A stormtrooper would kick a gaurdsmens ass, and yet they have the same WS and I. what up with that.

He is absolutely correct.

I dont think just the exrta attack should win them the CC, is should be thier skill, as well as the fluff states they have asualt roles, storming objectives, so if needbe they would charge a unit. I'm not saying they should be the best but should hold somwehwhat.

If the leadership I suggested is too much to ask for, as well as the Initiative, why not give them furious charge or stubborn? Is that too overpowered even at 18pts per model? At least this fits the assualt role and they would get that initiative boost if they charge of course.

***I edited the original post, as I see some things wouldnt work.

Stubborn isn't that bad of an idea...

Nothing is 'wrong' with Storm Troopers other than their point coast.

16pts is too much to pay for a guardsmen of ANY stripe. That's as much or more than some Space Marines.

They have a decent (for Guard) armor save, a couple of coolish special rules, and most importantly that AP 3 Hellgun. I'd say that this is worth 12pts a model tops.

Nocturn wrote:I like the statline that the OP suggested, at 18 PPM.

At 18ppm you'd see them even less than you see them now. T3 4+sv infantry, especially with crappy Init and combat ability (even with WS4 and furious charge they aren't hugely scary) and without any ability to hold objectives, are never going to be effective for those points, especially relative to anything else in the book, and in light of basic troops being 5ppm (3.5x cheaper) and only very slightly easier to kill. 18pts is completely unreasonable for any such unit, even the current 16pts would still be probably be a bit too much for the OP's suggested changes, which tells you how awful that current costing is.

Lets see:
As Storm troopers should be now:
+5 pts: basic guardsmen
+3 points for carapace
+2 points for BS+1
+3 points for AP3 upgrade
+3 points for special rules
-2 points because "Non-troop scoring" rule.
Total:14 ppm

Add ons via this thread:
+2 points for WS +1
+1 point for +1 Leadership
+1 point for +1 gun Str.

This is how it should look give or take half a point here and there for the listings (way to complicated to get into half point range)

king-newmic wrote:Lets see:
As Storm troopers should be now:
+5 pts: basic guardsmen

Don't forget that the basic guardsmen is actually more like 4pts. The squad is 50pts and that includes Sergeant with extra attack and higher Ld.

+3 points for carapace

Carapace at 3ppm is overcosted, there's a reason nobody ever takes it on Vets/Command squads aside from theme, or took it even at 20pts in the previous book.

+2 points for BS+1
+3 points for AP3 upgrade

AP3 is dubious in value given the prevalance of cover, short range (making such ST's highly vulnerable to assault) and poor weapon S, 3pts is possibly a bit much. 2pts is probably more accurate.

+3 points for special rules

Again, a bit much, many other units get such abilities or similar ones for half the cost. 2pts is probably better.

So really what we should end up with is something around 12pts, 10 after scoring decrease, so lets say 55 for 4+1 Sergeant, or 115 for 9+ 1 Sergeant, or maybe 60 for 5 and 120 for 10.

Add ons via this thread:
+2 points for WS +1

Unfortunately there's just no way it's worth 2pts on S3 T3 I3 models, 1pt maybe, especially only going from WS3 to WS4.

+1 point for +1 Leadership

+5pts for the unit perhaps, that's about how GW costs it for most Imperial units.

+1 point for +1 gun Str.

So after this lets say 80 for 5 and 150 for 10, still feels a bit steep, especially considering something like BA Assault Marines or Grey Hunters are like the same cost, and still markedly superior and troops.

We could work backwards from Thousand Sons:

Pros:
Lose Slow and Purposeful = +2 points
Gain CCW = +1 pt
Gain Special Operations: +3 pts

Cons:
Lose power armor = -4 pts
Lose all 4s except WS and BS = -1 pts / stat = -3
Lose Fearless = -2 pts
Lose 2 LD = -2 pts
Lose str 4 guns = -1 pt
Lose invulnerable save = -4 pts

Total comes out to 13 ppm at current in-codex stats.

Don't forget that TSons are scoring, and also seen almost universally as overcosted and under-capable as well unfortunately

True dat, yo. What is scoring worth? And I can't arbitrarily change the numbers based on perceived worth of the original unit.

@vathaki:
-Guardsmen are worth 5 points because there simply worth 5 points. ou have to draw the line in the sand somewhere and as far as im concerned, you start off with the basic mainline trooper as the starting cost no ifs, ands, or buts about it.
-Storm troopers also get a sargent with higher leadership and extra attack under the belt, double check the codex again
-There are only 3 units in the codex that can buy carapace. one can buy it at 10ppm, another can buy it at 4ppm, and the last one can get it at 3ppm. Im using the lowest value you can get for carapace in the guard codex. If you want at 2ppm then make it that way.
-i felt AP3 is equal to 3 points. if you kill a single space marine then you made your points. Plus weapons are notorious for being hard to price right.
-Storm troopers get a 2ppm main special rule and a secondary 1 point special rule on the side. Its fair.
-WS might be 1 point, i just made it 2 points because thats how much BS costs
-Ld of 9 is alot harder to crack than a Ld of 8. +1 points is nothing to sweat over.

iIn the end, grey knights and blood marines may be better at assulting but thats what theyre good at. We did not come here to build a guardsmen greyknight, we came here to build a imperial guard stormtrooper. Its reasonably powerful, alot better than it was before, and still has its fluff to fall back on. Mission acomplished in my opnion.

also, i dont know the costs of chaos so you should follow the skeleton of my example and work your way up from the basic trooper till you add up all the costs. the rest of the points that are not accounted for in terms of uprades for the unit are what you can adjust with. Oh, and the more stuff you add on, the more it adds on to the costs; "Sum of the parts..." and all that.

They are really fine as it is... (As long as people stop comparing them to Vets...)
Some sort of combi weapon for them would be cool though
Instead of wasting time "fixing" them, why not fix the units that are actually bad. Like say Ogryns.

Dunno if anybody clicked on my link, by in my thread, I made the following changes to Stormtroopers:

- Gave them the Combat Squads USR.
- Gave them the option to take a Vox Caster, Demolition Charge and/or Medi-Pack.
- Improved the range and strength of Hot-Shot weaponry: both Lasguns (Range 24", Str. 4, AP 3, Rapid Fire) and Laspistols (Range 12", Str. 4, AP 3, Pistol). I know that Str. 4 might seem a bit much when compared to Boltguns, but Boltguns are a high 4 (49%), and Hot-Shots are a low 4 (40%). On a ten-point scale, it can be misleading.
- Gave them the option to replace their Hot-Shot Lasguns with Hellguns (Range 24", Str. 3, AP 5, Assault 3).
- Gave them the option to take Meltabombs and Camo Cloaks.

Good call on the S4 and good idea about bringing back hellguns, though I think they should be R18"

Jackster wrote:They are really fine as it is... (As long as people stop comparing them to Vets...)
Some sort of combi weapon for them would be cool though
Instead of wasting time "fixing" them, why not fix the units that are actually bad. Like say Ogryns.

Ogryns does not = bad....... they are annoying as hell since power fists can't instant death them.....

king-newmic wrote:@vathaki:
-Guardsmen are worth 5 points because there simply worth 5 points.

Except..they're not. A squad of 10 is 50pts. That *includes* the cost of the sergeants extra attack and Ldboost, and the ability to merge squads.

you start off with the basic mainline trooper as the starting cost no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Except that doesn't quite work all the time. There is no cost for just the trooper given, and the basic trooper has an ability stormtroopers will never get, Scoring.

-Storm troopers also get a sargent with higher leadership and extra attack under the belt, double check the codex again

Yes they do, I never said anything to the contrary, but he costs the squad an additional 5pts (base squad of 4+1sergeant is 85pts, an additional 5 is 80pts)

-There are only 3 units in the codex that can buy carapace. one can buy it at 10ppm, another can buy it at 4ppm, and the last one can get it at 3ppm. Im using the lowest value you can get for carapace in the guard codex. If you want at 2ppm then make it that way.

Right, I understand the equivalency, but one should also realize when looking at carapace that nobody takes it because for those values are simply too high to be worth it. As I noted, even in the last codex when it was 20pts, nobody took it competitively.

-i felt AP3 is equal to 3 points. if you kill a single space marine then you made your points. Plus weapons are notorious for being hard to price right.

Right, but again on relatively easy to kill models with very short ranged, low S guns that cannot be followed up with an assault, and especially given the prevalance of cover, 3ppm is difficult to justify.

-Storm troopers get a 2ppm main special rule and a secondary 1 point special rule on the side. Its fair.

They cannot utilize all of their special operations rules in a game however, only 1, meaning the marginal value of those abilities over each other relatively low. They also don't use them anywhere near as effectively as most other units given their relatively S, T, I, Ld and Sv and the relative weakness of their basic weapons (S3 guns).

-WS might be 1 point, i just made it 2 points because thats how much BS costs

BS gives a direct 33% increase in effective firepower over BS3. WS3 won't net the same kind of return, especially with stats that generally means the vast majority of enemies will strike first, strike harder, and be harder to harm in return.

-Ld of 9 is alot harder to crack than a Ld of 8. +1 points is nothing to sweat over.

Perhaps, but at the same time, relating ST's to anything in their current price-range, they're going to be taking that test a lot more often, and they don't have other special rules to help mitigate it (e.g. ATSKNF)

iIn the end, grey knights and blood marines may be better at assulting but thats what theyre good at.

In the case of the former they're also just as good if not better at shooting, and the latter isn't much worse at shooting (in fact, the only if sitting at 12" and trading shots without cover are the assault marines going to be in trouble, if sitting at 12" and the marines have cover they'll beat the ST's at shooting even if the ST's also have cover) , and equivalent if not better as a tank hunting unit.

also, i dont know the costs of chaos so you should follow the skeleton of my example and work your way up from the basic trooper till you add up all the costs. the rest of the points that are not accounted for in terms of uprades for the unit are what you can adjust with. Oh, and the more stuff you add on, the more it adds on to the costs; "Sum of the parts..." and all that.

The problem is that with this line of thinking, without acknowledging diminishing returns, you end up with what the Stormtrooper is now, a unit with too many special rules and fancy wargear that doesn't have a statline to support it and make effective use of all that, and ends up costing half again as much as it should.

Jackster wrote:They are really fine as it is... (As long as people stop comparing them to Vets...)

How so? The problem isn't only comparing them to vets, it's when you compare them to anything else in the same general price range. Vets will do pretty much every job just as well except back field AT for fewer points and hold objectives, while anything else that costs as much as ST's will be roughly as shooty but also far hardier and better in CC.

Diesel Stradin wrote:
Ogryns does not = bad....... they are annoying as hell since power fists can't instant death them.....

No, actually theyr'e pretty awful. Just because a powerfist won't ID them doesn't make them good. A basic tac squad can nearly match them point for point in CC, and will outfight them with a single powerfist routinely. Ld6/7 doesn't exactly help either for a CC shock unit...

-I agree that the sargent does cost more than the average trooper but because you cannot buy sargents separately anymore, the basic cost of the trooper averages out to be 5 points.
The ability to merge squads is null as it presents a good thing and a bad thing wraped into one. There is no need to pay for it.
+1 point to merge the squad
-1 point because you now have less squads to work with.

-you are right, there is a cost for putting another unit onto the field, im not sure if i added it in there but it should be there.

-carapace should be woth 2ppm but thats for another thread to decide.

Everything else is debatable but requires too much effort: im just showing where generaly all the points went into the model and what its generaly worth: 13-14 points instead of 16 for the normal trooper which is a very big drop in points. paying 17-18 points for this upgraded trooper should also be about right. Cant know for sure but as the biggest rule of all in making points adjustments says:
"It is better to aim over and have a slightly bad unit then to aim under and have an overpowered one"

-Everyone compares stormtroopers to vets because stormtroopers are supposed to be better than vets yet storm troopers fail to beat them in almost every catagory that you put the two in. Go figure.

- I like all of spoons suggestions, they feel right for a storm trooper. Maybe stepping on the toes for the spacemarines when it comes down to Combat Squads but i dont think it will hurt too much.

-Ogryns: dont let anyone tell you otherwise, they are priced very badly for what they do and are missing a couple of features. As for fixing them, go and check 2 or 3 threads back and you'll find several good fixs, one made by me, another by spoon, and another 1 or 2 that derseve mentioning. All of them are better than they were before. Give them a look see and support your local Dakka-posters!

In the Tau Codex Brainstorm Thread, we were talking about reworking rapid to be assault1/heavy2.

This might be interesting to allow stormies the ability to move and fire at max range or stay stationary and fire twice. However, I can't imagine it being beneficial to keep a unit like stormies still for a turn since they are only 18"

I don't remember if it was mentioned earilier, would making Hot-shot lasguns Assault2 be too much?

acekevin8412 wrote:In the Tau Codex Brainstorm Thread, we were talking about reworking rapid to be assault1/heavy2.

That might be fine for an additional "Support" weapon class or something. Rapid Fire however is supposed to represent weapons that require concentration and control to operate effectively at long range, but which can be brought to bear much more readily up close.

That's what was being discussed, whether Rapid Fire should be:
the ability to long range single shots and close up rapid shots
or
quick single shots on the move and pump out a steady stream of shots while stationary.(Because you don't have to compensate for two things moving, yourself and the target.

Well, Rapid Fire as you described it would suit its namesake better. I suppose the current rules could apply to a "Rifle" weapon class... after all, why not have both?

I_am_a_Spoon wrote:Well, Rapid Fire as you described it would suit its namesake better. I suppose the current rules could apply to a "Rifle" weapon class... after all, why not have both?

i completely agree i think rapid fire works as it is but add in this new idea as a new weapon type of "Rifle"

Hehehe, i had a mind flash last night, what if instead of making the rifle have only 2 types of fire, why not 3?

12" assult 1
-final bursts and sprays before engaging the enemy at CC

12" rapidfire 2
-decently to well aimed shots at an enemy thats close

max range" rapidfire 1
-well aimed shots at long range

IMHO, and truth be told I've only read about 2/3 of the posts in depth, (so I apologize for any redundancy), here's what I think the Stormtroopers should be and why:

I've always noted storm troopers described in book as either shock infantry (rangers, swat units, or marines) or special operations infantry, that being said, leaving human like stats of I3, T and S 3 would be reasonable and recommended. Weapon skill 4 should only come in if a unit has a specific close combat role for the guard... like ogryns or special characters. I'd find that the BS 4 is most representative of infantry that train with their weapons constantly, have targeters, etc. equipment that compensates or augments their shooting ability.

I like the idea of selectable mode weaponry, allowing for either greater volume of fire, or lower volume, higher strength, more penetrating shots, not because it would be particularly fluffy, but moreso because it would make the unit more versatile on the field. Regarding armor, I find that the 4+ save is sufficient and needs no change there. Lowering prices for special weapons may be a good idea, however, I'd like to see only mission specific weapons provided, and should be increased to 3 per squad (IE - meltas only allowed for an antitank doctrine, whereas, plasma or flamers for anti infantry doctrines).

I think that the storm troopers should be allowed to select from 4 doctrines, the standard airborne, standard Recon but with flamers as their spec weapons, and pinning rules on their weapons; perhaps a tank hunter specific variant that can take infiltrate and a tank hunter benefit, and perhaps an "assassination/sabotage" doctrine, allowing for deep strike, a demo charge, and a combination of plasma or melta weapons and meltabombs for taking out a specific unit.

In order to balance these perks, perhaps a rule such as the lone wolf's killpoint rule should take effect, where the IG player will gain benefit from the unit actually achieving their mission objective (kill x units, go to X objective, destroy X tank, etc.) and or counting against the IG player where they do not achieve their goal. This should all be at standard cost.

My two cents anyway. Thoughts?

makes sence to me

Ok, I LOVE Storm Troopers with all my heart, so I pretty much agree to everything that the OP stated for changes. As for the people who say that these changes would have them stepping on the toes of Space Marine units, remember that they are Elites and still almost twice as costly as regular units in our codex. To those worried about a ST spam, that means that any viable list will probably not even have all 3 Elite slot choices filled, to save points on everything else that an IG list needs, like Vendettas, and Melta-vets.

Stormtroopers should be significantly cheaper and (and I know this is heresy to a lot of newer players) shouldn't have AP3. That has never had support in the fluff, and has never even been hinted at in any earlier incarnation of the rules. It makes no sense as anything except a gimmicky anti-MEQ hand-out from the design team, and I think contributes significantly to the overpricing of STs.

Bring them down to around 8-10 pts. The selective fire modes idea is a great one IMO - I would go with something like 24" S3 AP4 Rapid Fire as their basic fire mode and 6" S4 AP3 Assault 1 to represent cranking up their weapons in close range (and even then the AP3 is just a concession to players who have gotten used to the AP3 - I'd rather make it 6" S4 AP4 Assault 2).

Aside from the large body of fluff and previous rules that had their weapons NOT punching straight through power armor, remember that even though stormtroopers are highly elite and they have the best small arms available to the guard, they are called so in comparison to the guard, not to the (incredibly rare and far more powerful) space marines. The ability for a stormtrooper's weapon to easily negate the most common armor in the Imperium (flak) and even go through carapace armor, valuable armor worn by important people and other elite units, would be a Big Deal. They are the best of the best of normal humans, their rules only seem too weak when they cost the same as Space Marines and fight MEQs 90% of the time on the tabletop. Cut their points in half and bring their weapons in line with the fluff and I think they'd be worth taking.

@CalgarsPimpHand I started the IG with their 5th edition codex, so I "grew up" with AP3 Hot-shots. However, I would gladly accept your changes as as long as all their other options remained the same. From what I have read of the fluff, I agree that there is no mention of hellguns punching through power armour. Carapace maybe. They really are just a contrived way to include MEQ killers.

One question I had though. If STs are supposed to be Elite SpecOps soldiers, why can they only take 2 special weapons when veterans can take 3? I think this should've been switched. Also, with all their high-tech gear, why can't Sergeants take power fists?

acekevin8412 wrote:

One question I had though. If STs are supposed to be Elite SpecOps soldiers, why can they only take 2 special weapons when veterans can take 3? I think this should've been switched. Also, with all their high-tech gear, why can't Sergeants take power fists?

Probably because ST are very organized. After all if Space Marines are the emperor's finest, why are they limited to a heavy weapon and a special weapon in their bread and butter squads? Why not x4 special weapons/etc? Vets on the other hand are those who probably dont have authorization, they have their "ways" of getting additional requisition.

Also generally IG with powerfists is a bad idea unless you have more than 10 bodies protecting it

I am a huge fan of storm troopers, and always thought they could be a bit better, I allways mount them in valkyries anyways so I wellcome the dedicated transport Idea. Also I love the Idea of the Missions and the loe wolf draw backs that resipsa stated. In my opinion, I think that fluff and rules wise, the storm troopers would do best if they have a specific mission to follow, choosen after deployment. Here's what I think:
sabbotage: stromtroopers gain Infiltrate and tanks hunters USR. if they fail to destroy or immobilize an enemy tank, they count as *2 kps for a mission that uses Kps
Air calvery: storm trooopers who deepstrike roll 1 less scatter dice to land
Dynamic entry: the turn they enter the board, the storm troopers hellguns gain assault 2. (cant think of penalty)
Forward recon: storm troopers gain scouts and move through cover Usr. (maybe a rule to make artilliry acurate, as recon is meant to rely info)

DakkaDakka wrote: