I have been playing Chaos Space Marines since before they even had a codex in 2nd edition. It pains me to say it, but in the current state of the game they are not only an under-powered codex, they are very nearly the *worst* codex. The simple truth of the matter is that in almost every case a Chaos Space Marine unit is both more expensive and worse at its job than a unit with a similar role from another codex, MEQ or otherwise. Here are some of the more glaring examples:
10 Chaos marines with two melta guns and an icon of chaos glory: 180
10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta guns: 155
5 havocs, 4 missile launchers, icon of chaos glory: 165
5 Long Fangs, 4 missile launchers: 115
10 raptors, 2 melta guns, Icon of chaos glory: 230
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)
10 Lesser Daemons: 130
10 Ork Slugga Boyz: 60
In every case here, the Chaos choice is more expensive, and also lacks access to things like FNP, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, which *used* to be something you could purchase for *any* chaos unit (well, the FNP was reserved for khornate chosen/characters) to represent their thousands of years of experience. Now Chaos are the newbie chumps, and everyone else is a bad ass veteran. I added in the Icon of Chaos Glory where needed because ATSKNF is an extremely powerful morale boosting ability. 1 higher LD and re-rollable morale is in fact much worse, because you can still get sweeping advanced, and you will still never regroup above half str.
But, you'll say, what about the Chaos specific stuff like Obliterators, Daemon Princes, Lash of Submission, and Defilers?
Obliterators and Daemon Princes both are far too vulnerable to both small arms and heavy weapons fire. The dreaded "lash prince" which according to internet lore is converted out of 100% pure Wisconsin's finest, is particularly fragile as it is only T5 and 3+/5+. The Nurgle Warptime Prince is 175 points, and although harder to hurt with str 4, goes down just as badly to krak missiles, which good lists have in plenty. Ever wonder why you never see a Khornate daemon prince any more? It's because they're the worst choice defensively and offensively. The lack of access to 2+ armor and 3++ invuln saves to Chaos HQs simply makes them entirely second tier to Imperial HQs, and even the humble (or not so humble!) Ork Warboss can be nearly as tough, and more damaging, for less than 2/3 the points.
Obliterators are still considered to be powerful by most of the internet, but are not a good value for the firepower you get, nor are they as durable as claimed. Facing against lists with Broadsides, Vendettas, Lascannon Heavy Weapon Squads, attack bikes, melta guns, multi-meltas, fire prisms, bright lances, dark lances, etc. they are very easy to instant-kill. Even facing against lists that don't have these tools (I guess that leaves nids...) they can be killed with small-arms fire or melee without *too* much difficulty, as they have one wound per 37.5 points. Most of the time you're going to be shooting one lascannon per obliterator, or perhaps one plasma cannon per obliterator. So for 150 points, say, you're effectively getting half of a devastator squad. If you look at even a Chaos Predator with lascannon sponsons, you're getting those two lascannon shots, plus an autocannon, on a hull that is *immune* to small arms or poison fire, and is actually less vulnerable to lances or lascannons too, for less points.
Defilers are *ok* but are still a gigantic "shoot me" sign on a 150 point AV12 hull that can't decide whether it wants to be shooty or Close Combat oriented, and isn't really spectacular at either.
In conclusion please dispel any myths you might have had that Chaos Space Marines is still a vibrant and viable codex. It is both lacking in variety to even the Space Marine codex, that most creamy of vanilla codices, and lacking in power and points efficiency to any codex out there, other than maybe Tau and Necrons.
willydstyle wrote:I have been playing Chaos Space Marines since before they even had a codex in 2nd edition. It pains me to say it, but in the current state of the game they are not only an under-powered codex, they are very nearly the *worst* codex. The simple truth of the matter is that in almost every case a Chaos Space Marine unit is both more expensive and worse at its job than a unit with a similar role from another codex, MEQ or otherwise. Here are some of the more glaring examples:
First of all, respectfully, this post looks like flamebait or just a long QQ. I've read many of your other posts and respect your opinions, so this post seems uncharacteristic from you.
CSM is an older codex and is suffering from codex creep. As a codex gets older, the number of viable builds drops, until a codex is left with very few -- such as Eldar, Tau, or Necrons. The fact is a BA or SW player has multiple competitive builds they can base their army off of, and they all work. An Eldar player has 1 competitive build and 1 semi-competitive build. (I use Eldar as an example as I play the army) The CSM codex appears to be in a similar place.
If your playing an older codex, you have one of two practical options.
First, you can soak as much as you can from the codex and do moderately well in tournaments but accept that an equal skilled general with equal amounts of luck will on average win if they are playing a top teir codex. That does not mean you will lose every game, as the other two elements in that sentence (luck and general) can make a huge difference!
Secondly you can play them 'as counts' for another army of your choice. There is nothing to stop you from playing them as BA. Just give your bezerkers the same rules as death company. Give your CSM the same rules as BA assault marines (ie, lose the bolters). Make Mephiston a sorcerer lord (which fits quite well actually).
Your point that the difference only really comes into play when playing against a general of similar skill is a good one, and is, in the end, really the point I'm trying to make. I simply see comments way to often to the tune of "oh they're still good if you play them right."
However, that simply is not a meaningful statement, as codex power can *only* really be judged under "ideal" circumstances where both players are of equal skill and the mission or terrain does not favor one army over the other to any large degree.
One of the big problems with Chaos is that even its "competitive" build is not really very powerful or efficient compared to even the less competitive build from newer books.
willydstyle wrote:Your point that the difference only really comes into play when playing against a general of similar skill is a good one, and is, in the end, really the point I'm trying to make. I simply see comments way to often to the tune of "oh they're still good if you play them right."
Agreed. Anyone who tells you 'your not playing them right' must not be playing in a competitive environment.
willydstyle wrote:However, that simply is not a meaningful statement, as codex power can *only* really be judged under "ideal" circumstances where both players are of equal skill and the mission or terrain does not favor one army over the other to any large degree.
Now, the percentages may be off due to small sample size (6 players out of 204) but that in itself speaks volumes. If the CSM were viewed as even a mid-teir codex then their would be a greater percentage of people playing them.
willydstyle wrote:One of the big problems with Chaos is that even its "competitive" build is not really very powerful or efficient compared to even the less competitive build from newer books.
Again, that's codex creep. Whats interesting is that at the same time some builds become more competitive. In terms of the Eldar, since GK hit the table, runes of warding has become better as it wraith-bones the entire GK army.
Overall though, its what happens when your codex ages. As CSM is a MEQ, if you want to win at tourneys I would play them as BA.
Phototoxin wrote:Use codex spaze marines or blood angels..
Vanilla marines for chaos? Unless they're just renegades I think they dont have enough "chaosy" elements. Space Wolves or Blood Angels fit though. Hell....to a lesser extent grey knights even (they might make good malal cults)
Anyways to those loyal to codex: chaos space marines, you could either see if the locals is willing to accept fan dexes or something or pray you get a decent author for you next book (heck, I'd take even matt ward if that means we can be top tier!)
BA fits well because they can be very assaulty and have a few core units with translate well
- Devastators to Havocs
- Death Company to Bezerkers
- Razorback spam to Havoc Spam
- Mephiston is a perfect sorcerer lord.
SW fits well also. While its less assaulty than BA, its got a few nice options
- Juggernauts instead of thunderwolves
- Havocs can be used as Long Fangs
- CSM make perfect Grey Hunters
- Dreads are ... well ... dreads
- Wolf guard can all be geared differently giving a very chaos'y feel (works very well with terminators)
To keep true to the fluff, I would avoid things like stormravens or LR variants other than god-hammer. Luckly, those codex's are tough enough to do that and still be competitive.
The core of chaos remaining competitive is in its troop choices...
CSMMok 180 pts for base 30 attacks
10 SW 150 pts for base 10 attacks 20 with countercharge
Death guard - FNP troop choice
EC - overpriced shooty but 20 attacks at I 5
Berzerkers - 30 attacks and WS 5
As 5th edition puts a bonus on troop choices that can contest and actually claim objectives, the strength of chaos still stands.
The problem is getting to the supporting elements -
- pskers with no anti-psychic defence.
- over-priced or weak heavy choices.
- non-existent good fast attack choices.
That leaves you the troops and the elites to make your hay. Don't scoff at 30 pt termies especially with MoS as now they are going first compared to most things. Chosen
are purpose-built but useful. Possessed - well they sucked when the codex came out. High-cost + random ability (some of which suck) yields a unit that I would never play.
I am one of those players who say "your not playinf right". I just entered the tourny scene 3 months ago period. And so far I have place top 3 in each tourny I have enteried with csm. Including winning first round of hard bouyz and placing 2nd at the states biggest tourny.... both of which very competative.
I understand a bit of what your saying. I am forced to play one way and one way only. But right now csm still have some increadibly powerfull units.
Hq: deamon princes. Point for pound they are probably the best hq in this game. They effect every aspect in this game.
Elites: small cheap deepstriking termies are the only comp build out there.. but they work. And work well
Troops: csm are still pretty good. Not grey gunters but better then most troops in this game
Berzerkers are expensive but if used right they can rampage very well. I had them nearlly clear out an entire crismon fist army my last tourny.
Fast: bah
Heavy: a pair of obliterators deepstriking righ in the middle of the battle is still increadibly amazing...
So if you stick to the above units and use them well you can play competativlym.. it just makes me sad I can't bring my thousand sons to a tourny ever... :(
deffskulla wrote:Chaos is still very viable, they are still MEQ and still will wreck your face off...
Willydstyle is right that CSM is a bit overpriced. But comparison on a unit-by-unit basis is too low-level to be a criterion for viability. I played EC vs. several opponents - veterans, but not really top ranked guys. From this, my judgement is a bit different namely that CSM is still viable as said.
Good CSM forces are 1) Rhino based with CSM, Cult Marines, Chosen, Havocs mounted in Rhinos and led by two lash Sorcerers, 2) Monster mash with 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons, and 3) PM based list with Obliterators, winged DPs with MoN.
I'd argue that Chaos is still viable as a hard counter to certain armies that are currently dominating the Tournament scene (Deathwing, for example, that gives my Mech IG fits). They do it via Lash and PC synergy, which unfortunately is only found in the HQ and HSFOC sections. But really, your 2 Lash Sorcerors and 9 Oblits comes to 925 points, so it's exactly half of the ubiquitous 1,850 point army standard.
If you wanted to flesh it out, perhaps 3x Dreadnoughts w/ Plasma Cannons would be neat for a change of pace, then fill in with 5-man 2x SW Plague Marine squads and perhaps a medium-sized Berzerker unit for counter-assault.
Chaos isn't *as* viable as a TAC army in the same way that Mech IG, SW, BA and GK have very few "bad matchups", but it does provide a hard counter to certain armies that give them a hard time and for that reason I do believe it's viable in a competitive setting.
Absolutely agree with the OP. If you look at comparably priced things CSM cannot compete. Overall, that stuff adds up up and the CSM player is at a sizable handicap versus the new Dexes. Besides the overcosted nature of their units, other issues include:
1. Lack of range. This is a big one. The army can get ranged firepower in all of 1 slot: heavy support. Elites have Dreds but those are unreliable and suffer from the built in real life consequence of constantly having to discuss the way "fire frenzy" is played.
2. The death of monsterous creatures. Maybe not complete death, but the big guys have taken a big hit lately. Large amounts of st 8 and poisoned shots is a death sentence. A 2+ armor save or 3++ would make them viable again.
3. Lack of speed. The army is just not fast. There is no way to do anything about this really.
4. Lack of psychic defense. This is becoming more and more important.
Add it all together and you have a bad codex. I wouldn't say the worst, but definitely bad.
willydstyle wrote:
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)
While I agree with some of your posts, I think you're being dishonest. If you're going to compare units, you can't just take the good part of a unit in order to enforce your point. Rage is a pretty huge disadvantage, especially as they can't score either.
JGrand wrote:Absolutely agree with the OP. If you look at comparably priced things CSM cannot compete. Overall, that stuff adds up up and the CSM player is at a sizable handicap versus the new Dexes. Besides the overcosted nature of their units, other issues include:
1. Lack of range. This is a big one. The army can get ranged firepower in all of 1 slot: heavy support. Elites have Dreds but those are unreliable and suffer from the built in real life consequence of constantly having to discuss the way "fire frenzy" is played.
2. The death of monsterous creatures. Maybe not complete death, but the big guys have taken a big hit lately. Large amounts of st 8 and poisoned shots is a death sentence. A 2+ armor save or 3++ would make them viable again.
3. Lack of speed. The army is just not fast. There is no way to do anything about this really.
4. Lack of psychic defense. This is becoming more and more important.
Add it all together and you have a bad codex. I wouldn't say the worst, but definitely bad.
ad 1. Chaos has Havocs with missile launchers and autocannons, Obliterators, and Defilers.
ad 2. The MCs of Nids or Daemons are also vulnerable to certain weapons.
ad 3. How much speed do you need in objective based games? Two-third of the games in a competitive setting are of this type.
ad 4. Ask Orks or Tau about that.
willydstyle wrote:
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)
While I agree with some of your posts, I think you're being dishonest. If you're going to compare units, you can't just take the good part of a unit in order to enforce your point. Rage is a pretty huge disadvantage, especially as they can't score either.
Rage is a disadvantage, but one that is largely mitigated by taking a transport for the unit. And berzerkers being scoring has almost never mattered because they are an aggressive unit that is generally dead by the end of a game anyways. You can't score if you're dead. Despite rage, the fact that death company have FNP and are *less expensive* than berzerkers is simply a huge insult.
ad 1. Chaos has Havocs with missile launchers and autocannons, Obliterators, and Defilers.
ad 2. The MCs of Nids or Daemons are also vulnerable to certain weapons.
ad 3. How much speed do you need in objective based games? Two-third of the games in a competitive setting are of this type.
ad 4. Ask Orks or Tau about that.
Right....
1. All of those things you listed (the long range stuff) is fighting for three heavy support slots...thanks for backing up my point friend. Meanwhile, all of the other Marine dexes can pack in range at all the other slots.
2. And how are Nids doing these days.... Again, I appreciate the support.
3. In NoVa style 5 objective games, it depends. If you have speed it can really help. I'm just complaining that they have literally 0 speed. All of the other Marine books have better options here.
4. Tau...yeah, thanks again. There are armies that can survive without psychic defense. Again, I'm pointing out that they are at a disadvantage to the other MEQ books because of this.
I was saying that these things in conjunction with the overcostedness of their units contribute to the downfall to the army. As the OP showed, everything they can do can be done cheaper (and most of the time better) through other Marines dexes. This leads players to a mono build and general uncompetitiveness. For reference I'm also speaking in the context of tournies ect. Of course Chaos can still do well in basement games.
I really don't understand the arguments to the contrary. At the moment Chaos Space Marines is a flavorless, overcosted book with significantly less options and many more weaknesses than other MEQ armies. They CAN win. But they are going to be at a disadvantage versus any new book. Period.
I think CSM is at a major lowpoint in their relative power. Yes, they still have a few viable builds. Yes, some players do manage to do well with them. But, for the most part, it's a very weak codex at the moment.
But, that's 40k. Army strengths and weaknesses shift over time. Sometimes, you're on top, and, sometimes, you're on the bottom.
I suggest you have patience, do the best you can with the tools you have, and hope that the rumors of a 2012 6th edition with Chaos being the primary army turn out to be true. If you can't wait that long, do a counts-as loyalist army, or start collecting a new army all together.
4. Tau...yeah, thanks again. There are armies that can survive without psychic defense. Again, I'm pointing out that they are at a disadvantage to the other MEQ books because of this.
Back in the day, it was unimportant when the worst a SM librarian could toss at you was 3 or 4 S4 AP3 shots. We are now talking the days of S10 AP1 templates, Rune priest snowballs from hell, Tyrannid stuff that reduces your WS, IG stuff that drops large templates at high strength or drops your Ld down to 2. Add to that, that the relative effectiveness of psykers means there is a greater likelihood that people are going to fit one into their list.
I understand the reluctance to give them an active defense but I would argue that chaos at least needs a passive defense. Something like "because of the Chaos sorcerer's close ties to the warp, it is dangerous for all others to use psychic powers. On any roll of a double, they are subject to a Perils of the Warp result." (Note that you can be successful in delivering your power and still get attacked by perils.) This means that opposing psykers are looking at a 1 in 6 chance of suffering perils instead of 1 in 18.
This would be an interesting rule for sorcerers in the new dex:
"Scions of the Warp: Chaos Space Marine Sorcerers have a more direct line to the source of all pyschic power in the universe, the Chaos gods themselves. While they are still vulnerable to the perils of attack by the daemonic warp entities of rival gods, their intimate connection to the warp makes their psychic abilities extremely difficult to interdict with psychic defenses.
Whenever a Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer successfully casts a psychic power, the use of the power cannot be prevented or reduced in effect by wargear or special abilities that would normally do so."
It's funny how a codex that includes units like Thousand Sons who have a 4+ invul save and AP3 bolters or Plague Marines who are T4(5) and have FNP and blight grenades is seen as a bad one. There's lots of really cool, specialized units in there - there's also Khorne Berzerkers, noise marines and obliterators too.
But whereas something like BA get special abilities to help them make use of their strengths (like loads of jump packs to get into CC faster or the ability to grant furious charge to everything), it seems like Chaos have been given these specializations but then just left to get on with it.
They'll be due a new codex sooner rather than later anyway and then they'll probably be considered OP, lol.
ColdSadHungry wrote:It's funny how a codex that includes units like Thousand Sons who have a 4+ invul save and AP3 bolters or Plague Marines who are T4(5) and have FNP and blight grenades is seen as a bad one. There's lots of really cool, specialized units in there - there's also Khorne Berzerkers, noise marines and obliterators too.
But whereas something like BA get special abilities to help them make use of their strengths (like loads of jump packs to get into CC faster or the ability to grant furious charge to everything), it seems like Chaos have been given these specializations but then just left to get on with it.
They'll be due a new codex sooner rather than later anyway and then they'll probably be considered OP, lol.
If those units were priced appropriately then they would be good. As it is, Plague Marines are one of the few good choices in the book, but everything else is so over-costed that the extra expense of plague marines ends up being not quite worth it in the end, I find.
I think the MEQ codices suffer from creep worse than others. If a new book comes out it’s unlikely to do exactly what guard or elder or orks do. So even if it has shiny new stuff there still isn’t another army out there that can now do exactly what it can plus shiny new stuff, and that takes a book a long way towards being competitive.
But when a new marine book comes out it is going to have very similar capabilities plus lots of shiny new toys. Much more of the time the old book is going to find the new books can do exactly what it can plus a bunch of other vital stuff. CSM is suffering from this in spades, especially against wolves. Wolves can do virtually everything good in the CSM book plus a bunch of other awesome stuff too. When a huge portion of the tournament field can assault as well or better than you, is as tough and resilient or more than you, but also shoots better than you, moves better than you, and has a host of insane psychic powers you can’t deal with in any way, I would say that is pretty dang uncompetitive.
So long of there are MEQ books I think the oldest ones will be close to the bottom of the pack. The only time it hasn’t worked like that since I’ve been in the game was when DAs came out which was an anomaly, and the 4th ed CSM book which stayed on top a long time, but that was much less of a MEQ book than the current one.
I, like many others, disagree with some of the OP. Not all, but some.
I don't think Chaos are near the weakest army, I feel they're still fairly middle tier and one of the better non-5th edition Codices. As is inevitable with a Codex of its age and design, many things are overpriced, I'm not going to deny that in any form. There are however still some pretty good units in the army, which itself can be surprisingly tough.
I while ago, I posted my assessment on the Chaos Space Marine Codex, whilst that's changed to an extent, I still think some of it holds true IMHO.
Spoiler:
- Daemon Prince - Very Good. This really doesn't need explaining. Fairly vulnerable, but can hide behind rhinos, remain cheap, provide armour saturation and tackle most targets.
- Chaos Lord - Average. Over-priced and not too hard hitting, but is still a very capable IC.
- Chaos Sorcerer - Average. As above, but Warptime, Wind of Chaos and Lash of Submission are all good powers.
- Chaos Terminators - Average-good. Cheaper than normal terminators, access to 5pts combi-weapons and lots of CC goodies. Better than their reputation, but Reaper Autocannon is too expensive.
- Possessed - Poor. Look past their random factor (which still provides good bonuses) and they are a very deadly unit. Expensive however and too random.
- Chosen - Above Average. Ability to wield MANY assault weapons is very effective. Infiltration is neat too. Bit too expensive again however.
- Dreadnought - Poor. Flawed by random/self-harm factor, but with 2x CCW is still a deadly unit. Too few viable options, but Crazed/Frenzy has always been there.
- Chaos Space Marines - Good. Cheaper than their Space Marine counter-parts and have a wide variety of good available to them. Special weapons are (NOW) comparatively over-priced but they make good choices alongside the more expensive cult-troops. Solid back-bone.
- Khorne Bezerkers - Good. Expensive but cheap for what they can do. Very deadly in assault and scoring. Only significant problem is getting them to assault.
- Noise Marines - Average. Very expensive and sonic weapon can underwhelm. Do well in small quantities and as auxiliaries rather than back-bone though.
- Plague Marines - Very Good. One of the best troop choices in the game. Deadly and GREAT for holding an objective.
- Thousand Sons - Poor. Very expensive and under-whelming performance. Only redeeming factor is AP3. Too expensive to be readily viable.
- Spawn - Very Poor. Best used as a distraction/speed-bump. Otherwise (or including) they are a helluva waste of 40pts.
- Bikers - Very Poor. Over-costed and under-perform. Can be good delivery for lesser-daemons and special weapons but are otherwise weak.
- Raptors - Average. More expensive than their recent Codex-cousins and have limited roles as either fast melta or a large squad with MoK and therefore a LOT of attacks. YMMV however.
- Havocs - Poor. Low manoeuvrability and expensive weapons. Marks don't really help either. Can 4x assault weapons or autocannons but are otherwise too weak.
- Predator - Good. Often over-looked, but still pretty cheap and can provide a considerable amount of fire power and armour saturation.
- Vindicator - Good. Some hate it, some love it. Only slightly more expensive than codex-counterpart, but none-the-less very deadly, suits the Chaos play-style and DP can work well. Also good for armour saturation.
- Obliterators - Very Good. One of the best heavy choices in the entire game. Versatile, tough, cheap and can be numerous. It's all good.
- Land Raider - Above Average. Lacks PoTMS but is still very tough, very deadly and can work well to deliver assault units. Often under-rated IMHO.
- Defiler - Average. Battle Cannon is a great weapon and the defiler is nice and versatile, being capable in CC and range. Problems are however that it's expensive, is a BIG target and is competing against other, better, choices...
- Greater Daemon - Good. A still good unit, very power and cheap, can appear right in front of enemy too. However, lacks wings and DP is better.
- Lesser Daemons - Average. Reliable deep-strike and pretty good in assault, scoring too. However, lack range and are expensive.
I admit, this is a more optimistic comparison and it's talking about the Codex itself, rather than compared to other Codices/meta. Again, much of the Chaos Codex is overpriced, but much of it can still pack a nasty punch too.
IMHO, Chaos really, really needs to be meched up. Thankfully their rhinos are 35pts. However, meched up they can get into their optimum ranged (close quarters/>24" quickly, contest objectives and have lots of armour saturation.
It's often agreed that Grey Hunters are too cheap and I second this; they're 190pts for 10-men with 2 melta's in a rhino.
Then again, for Chaos it's 205pts for this; still a fairly good deal, even with the near-mandatory IoCG.
It's also worth pointing out that Tactical Marines are 220pts for 10-men, meltagun, multimelta and rhino. I don't deny, Tactical Squads aren't a particularly good unit IMHO, but I still feel CSM's aren't a bad unit, despite their cost compared to other more recent armies.
Chaos can get 2 Princes, 4 Meched-up, tough, Troop Choices and 3 Heavy Support Units at 1500pts and personally, I would still find that a powerful army.
Again, I don't deny their weaknesses; they are usually overpriced compared to most newer Codices and they often lack special abilities compared to new Codices, but I still feel that can pack a notable punch, particularly for a Codex of their age. I wouldn't put them in the bottom tier yet personally.
I agree Willydstyle. Even with the few competitive builds out there, they are very stagnant (hey, how about the idea I don't WANT to use lash/rely on a pair of psykers to win my game!). Stagnate army = predictable, and a predictable army is an easily beaten army. If i weren't hungover as and about to go to work (always an excellent combination ) I'd post more (I'll be back ) but to those who's response is "your doin' it wrong", please read this informative thread then go eat a bowl of up.
While I do agree that CSM arent near the top of the food chain, I find such a comparision as the one in the OP completly useless. You are comparing CSM units with the best units from several codecii. If CSM were able to put out as good units on every position then they wouldnt be anything but totally overpowered.
wuestenfux wrote:
Good CSM forces are 1) Rhino based with CSM, Cult Marines, Chosen, Havocs mounted in Rhinos and led by two lash Sorcerers, 2) Monster mash with 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons, and 3) PM based list with Obliterators, winged DPs with MoN.
You can complain all you want, but what Wuesty has said above is totally correct. Each of the builds above is viable in the current "meta" or whatever you'd like to call it.
Pretty much all of what the OP said is true. I agree with all of it.
However, I offer the following:
This is simply a period of penance. Chaos Space Marines in their last book were... slightly insane in power level.
OP, if you've been playing Chaos Space Marines for as long as you claim, then you know full well that you had plenty of time to rock out with that horribly powerful Codex they had prior to this one.
Balance in all things. You all will get a new, better book in time. You just have to finish taking your lumps for your last book.
wuestenfux wrote:
Good CSM forces are 1) Rhino based with CSM, Cult Marines, Chosen, Havocs mounted in Rhinos and led by two lash Sorcerers, 2) Monster mash with 2 DPs, GD, 3 Dreads, 3 Defilers, and Daemons, and 3) PM based list with Obliterators, winged DPs with MoN.
You can complain all you want, but what Wuesty has said above is totally correct. Each of the builds above is viable in the current "meta" or whatever you'd like to call it.
Which explains why CSM did so awesome at NOVA... oh wait, they were at the bottom.
To OP I used to play necron and nids I feel your pain. If you don't like how uncompetitive chaos is then trade/sell them for grey knights or shelve them til the new chaos legion comes out next year.
Also, as people have stated their dex is out of date and gw is on a trend of trying to make each new dex more op than the last so chaos should come back to glory soon. Though I know for a fact that a necron army made it to semi finals for ard boyz this year, if they can win chaos can too you just have to try and play around your dex's weakness.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:My Response to the OP: I play Tau. I have no sympathy for you.
WOW! Thank you for this HIGHLY INFORMATIVE POST, that really really adds to this discussion we are having about how competitive CSM's can be! What a highly excellent post, that contributed much to the discussion! Where would we be without that information? I'm sure this discussion would flop if it weren't for the fact that we now know you play Tau! Thank you, really, thank you so much!
How about you off to a thread about orks and tell them you play Tau there! I'm sure that will help your postcount!
MrTau wrote:I agree CSM should stop wining scince they are low avarege at worst
"oohhh I think my 'dex is worse than yours, so you can't whine! try playing MY army!!" Do you post such waffle in necron threads? Do you want some kind of badge of honor, saying "I play the anime army in 40k, and its but I still play it!"? I'll make one for ya, If you don't post up stupid
Just Dave wrote:Chaos can get 2 Princes, 4 Meched-up, tough, Troop Choices and 3 Heavy Support Units at 1500pts and personally, I would still find that a powerful army.
Again, I don't deny their weaknesses; they are usually overpriced compared to most newer Codices and they often lack special abilities compared to new Codices, but I still feel that can pack a notable punch, particularly for a Codex of their age. I wouldn't put them in the bottom tier yet personally.
Not the bottom tier yet. I find those lists pretty damn boring though. tough, but boring. I find playing vanilla SM much more enjoyable, simply because of the options I have
The issue is chaos is *okay* at just about everything but there is a MEQ out there can beat you any way you happen to spec your build. Whether its BA, SW, GK, VM, DA... one of them if not more can beat you at your own game.
To be fair, many of the units in the chaos codex are 2nd tier choices or worse.
That being said my black legion is sitting at 12 Wins/2 Losses/8 Ties. They are surprisingly hard to shoot off the board.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:My Response to the OP: I play Tau. I have no sympathy for you.
WOW! Thank you for this HIGHLY INFORMATIVE POST, that really really adds to this discussion we are having about how competitive CSM's can be! What a highly excellent post, that contributed much to the discussion! Where would we be without that information? I'm sure this discussion would flop if it weren't for the fact that we now know you play Tau! Thank you, really, thank you so much!\
Oh I'm gonna have fun.
Jihalah, the entire OP's post was, "Everyone else in Power armor does stuff better QQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQQ"
The LAST sentence in the first post was "In conclusion please dispel any myths you might have had that Chaos Space Marines is still a vibrant and viable codex."
Everything he posted was not "hey, I'm at a disadvantage, but let's think of how we can make it better". It was "Grey Hunters are better and cheaper than my marines, Long Fangs are better and cheaper than Havocs, Assault marines are better than my Raptors, Calgar has better Preds than me, Death Company is better than Bezerkers, and Slugga boyz are better than Lesser daemons. Also, my Deflier isn't good at anything, Oblits are worse than Broadsides, and Daemon princes are expensive target Practice for Missile Launchers"
Get off your high horse, oh great internet Warrior.
You're going to "have fun?" So your just posting up flamebait another post that's really helping this discussion! Well done
I read the OP more as "It's overcosted", not "everyone else in power armor does better". Which I agree with since I look at my little force compared to the loyalist MEQ armies my friends field. I don't think the CSM codex is "vibrant", slightly viable but not vibrant. It is boring, and with some of the newer 'dex's, its boring and easier to beat down.
So I'd suggest you dismount your "I play Tau I'm worse off" horse and off, guy
CSM codex is no where near "Vibrant" if anything it is opposite of it.
Even compare to a codex that came about the same time like Eldar or Dark Angels, it is pretty darn bland.
Iur_tae_mont wrote:Everything he posted was not "hey, I'm at a disadvantage, but let's think of how we can make it better".
Because *we* can't make it better. It doesn't matter what combination of over-priced, under-powered units you take, it's not going to make the codex good.
Remulus wrote: Hey, to be fair for chaos, you are taking units from EVERY ARMY to trump the chaos units. Thus there is more variety for them
Most people wont be able to field picked units from every army...
True that. But my beef with the chaos 'dex is
Jackster wrote:CSM codex is no where near "Vibrant" if anything it is opposite of it.
Even compare to a codex that came about the same time like Eldar or Dark Angels, it is pretty darn bland.
Just Dave wrote:Chaos can get 2 Princes, 4 Meched-up, tough, Troop Choices and 3 Heavy Support Units at 1500pts and personally, I would still find that a powerful army.
Again, I don't deny their weaknesses; they are usually overpriced compared to most newer Codices and they often lack special abilities compared to new Codices, but I still feel that can pack a notable punch, particularly for a Codex of their age. I wouldn't put them in the bottom tier yet personally.
Not the bottom tier yet. I find those lists pretty damn boring though. tough, but boring. I find playing vanilla SM much more enjoyable, simply because of the options I have
I never claimed it to be varied or interesting, nor would I, but my point was - in contrast to the OP's - that Chaos Space Marines are more viable - strength-wise, not character - than made out.
Snickerdoodle wrote:Because you have trouble winning with them, doesn't me they are not good. It means you are not good with them.
Play a different army and quit your complaining, or change your tactics and learn to play Chaos in a way you have not yet.
While at its core you are right. The lack of $500 or more lying around is a usual disincentive to just switching your army. The sadness is that after 3+ years a codex shows its age. We are probably a year or so out from chaos getting revisited so you have to make the choice. Stick with it and try to make it work or go drop the cash on the flavor of the month knowing that you will be able to return to chaos in 18 months or so.
I agree with you that Chaos is really showing its age right now, and it has a lot of over costed units when compared to other books, but I think saying that Chaos is "not viable" now is going a bit too far. After all, Chaos was one of the winners of Ard Boyz last year.
extrenm(54) wrote:I agree with you that Chaos is really showing its age right now, and it has a lot of over costed units when compared to other books, but I think saying that Chaos is "not viable" now is going a bit too far. After all, Chaos was one of the winners of Ard Boyz last year.
Ard Boy has many factors which prevent it from being reasonable data for what is considered competitive or not.
extrenm(54) wrote:I agree with you that Chaos is really showing its age right now, and it has a lot of over costed units when compared to other books, but I think saying that Chaos is "not viable" now is going a bit too far. After all, Chaos was one of the winners of Ard Boyz last year.
Ard Boy has many factors which prevent it from being reasonable data for what is considered competitive or not.
That is something that has never crossed my mind. Would you mind explaining?
2500 points makes getting the first turn even more important, and thus having a list that can take advantage of it even more important as well than more "normal" sized games. In addition, the missions often skew what is "good" a lot because they can be pretty unbalanced.
willydstyle wrote:2500 points makes getting the first turn even more important, and thus having a list that can take advantage of it even more important as well than more "normal" sized games. In addition, the missions often skew what is "good" a lot because they can be pretty unbalanced.
Your first argument applies to each army.
Look at Eldar. My experience is that a mech Eldar list is viable at lower pt levels (1500 pts) but Eldar doesn't scale very good when it comes to larger pt games.
This situation does not seem to apply to CSM.
Your first argument applies to each army.
Look at Eldar. My experience is that a mech Eldar list is viable at lower pt levels (1500 pts) but Eldar doesn't scale very good when it comes to larger pt games.
This situation does not seem to apply to CSM.
I don't see how 2500 points is good for Chaos Space Marines at all. Again, they have essentially three slots where they can get any kind of range (heavy support). Elites are generally pricey, mediocre role players, or bad and fast attack is pure crap. There isn't much to add after the core of troops, HQ, and HS that makes them significantly better.
2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits
Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.
Obviously if you compare every chaos unit entry to the best corresponding entries of all other codices, they're going to look pretty bad. Here's another look at those examples plus a few i threw in just for laughs...
10 Grey Hunters, 2 melta guns: 155
10 tactical marines, MG/MM: 175
10 Chaos marines with two melta guns and an icon of chaos glory: 180
5 assault marines (scoring), 1 melta gun: 110 (BA)
5 assault marines, 0 melta guns because they can't take any: 90 (SM)
5 raptors, 2 melta guns: 120
Space Marine Annihilator: 165
Chaos Annihilator: 165
10 Death Company: 200 (but these ones have FNP and relentless, and can take more CC upgrades)
10 Berzerkers: 210 (but these ones are scoring)
10 Ork Slugga Boyz with 6+ and no transport or nob: 60
10 Lesser Daemons with 5++ and unlimited icon shenanigans: 130 + some icons here and there
Sorcerer with lash: 125
Sky ray missile defence gunship: 125
10 thousand sons with bolt of tzeentch and rhino: 350
5 TH/SS terminators in LRC with MM: 460
3 obliterators with power fists, lascannons, plasmacannons, multimeltas, TL meltas: 225
3 necron heavy destroyers: 195
5 plaguemarines with 2 plasmaguns: 145
5 tacticalmarines with plasmagun and combiplasma: 115
Yeah okay so they tend to cost a bit much but chaos isn't leagues behind any one dex. Their units have a lot of unique functions as well, like lesser daemons. How can you even compare them to orks, I don't even
2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits
Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.
If that build were really "top tier" or even "middle tier" we'd be seeing it on the top tables at large events such as NOVA. We don't.
Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?
I will pose this question to you all: If the point costs in the current codex are decreased by 20%, will the army be competitive?
IMO, the answer is yes. It is not that we do not have the toys. It is that they cost too much for what they do when compared with newer codexes. The discrepancy becomes more pronounced at larger point-levels, because other armies can squeeze in more and more extra dakka paid for by the difference.
The only solution for that is a new codex, thankfully due in 2012 if rumors are right.
Regarding Necrons and codex creep, ironically Necrons are so old and out of date that few people see them in play, so you can really surprise the opposition and get some easy wins because of sheer ignorance among the opponents. So, codex creep can sometimes be beneficial to the underdog.
DAaddict wrote:Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?
Obliterators only have a 5+ invul and are only T4, anything S8 kills it, anything AP2/1 will hurt it badly (meltas will kill it), anything S8 and AP2/1 destroys it (demolishers, meltas, lascannons, dark lances, blasters, brightlances, railguns, exorcist missiles, prism cannons, being under the hole of a monolith template...) and so does anything in close combat, since they're I1 thanks to only having PFs and a single attack each.
They're good, but they're still counterable.
As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.
2 Lash sorcerers Double Melta gun PM squads Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta Oblits
Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.
If that build were really "top tier" or even "middle tier" we'd be seeing it on the top tables at large events such as NOVA. We don't.
Even if it were, It's pretty easy to figure out and take down. str8 weapons will dominate pretty much everything in that list, maybe not the oblits with their 2+, but when they do fail that save they are gone. And people don't use lots of krak missiles or meltaguns, so it not that big of a dea...
oh. Right. Whoops
And Its pretty sad a codex has a choice of 3 units and a transport as its viable choices.
Avatar 720 wrote:They're good, but they're still counterable.
As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.
This is why I hate playing guard, and switched to regular CSM since I used to play vs alot of guard- that 150p Vanilla Leman russ kills your precious 23p plague marines like a grot. Like a god damn grot. It's not that hard to counter plague-o's FNP at T4(5). If a unit can't counter it, sure plague-o's are tough as nuts. But when you can, generally they fall like a grot. And most anti-meq weapons act like anti-plague-o weapons.
Idk why you are having so much trouble. I have taken on just about everything "Scary" (BA/NIDs/DE/GKs/SW) with my Chaos and come out roughly on top (or Tie). And i wouldn't say i was a better general then anyone...
Running at 1.5k
2 Kson squads (sorc w/8 ksons) Sorcs have MB ... i think .... with Rhinos (DBs save lives)
1 Termy squad (PF/2LC) mark of Tzeench and LR Ded trans. (DB saves lives)
2 Defilers (1 all melee arms)
1 Termy Lord with demonic weapon and Mark of tzeench for death screamer!
4++ Saves for everyone ... AP3 Bolters ... Defilers ... Termies w/ LR ... DS Lord (using marks).
And one day i will make a Repair Roll with my Rhinos!
Tyrs13 wrote:Idk why you are having so much trouble. I have taken on just about everything "Scary" (BA/NIDs/DE/GKs/SW) with my Chaos and come out roughly on top (or Tie). And i wouldn't say i was a better general then anyone...
Running at 1.5k
2 Kson squads (sorc w/8 ksons) Sorcs have MB ... i think .... with Rhinos (DBs save lives)
1 Termy squad (PF/2LC) mark of Tzeench and LR Ded trans. (DB saves lives)
2 Defilers (1 all melee arms)
1 Termy Lord with demonic weapon and Mark of tzeench for death screamer!
4++ Saves for everyone ... AP3 Bolters ... Defilers ... Termies w/ LR ... DS Lord (using marks).
And one day i will make a Repair Roll with my Rhinos!
Looks good for roasting noobs, all that AP and tough invuls will give some people, particularly newer players or scrubs all sorts of fits. Problem is model count, anti tank, and number different targets you can fire at. I'm seeing 5 different units that can shoot at different targets, and 1 character built for CC. Also a single LR. A GOOD DE list run by a veteran player at that point should have a rather large amount of fire for you, you won't have much left other than a damaged LR after one turn of firing, and the 2nd will be the clean up phase. Hell GKs with their bolter backs, dreads, and psycannon spam should be able to take out everything other than the LR by the end of the first turn of shooting.
To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.
Justus wrote:To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.
I have to say I disagree with you about CSM vs Dark Eldar. If the Chaos Player is using a fully mechanized list, the DE player can have some real trouble. I have had a lot of success against DE with a 6 walker list.
Interceptors however, are another problem, and if the Gk player knows what he is doing, can be a HUGE problem for CSM.
GK and DE are tough match ups defiantly, but they are not impossible to beat.
I merely suggest you use something other then the standard Chaos SM. Sure they are more points and you will have issues with "Model Count". But you do get alot of bang for your buck.
(How many games at 1.5k have more then 1 LR? Or more then what 10 individual squads, with horde armies?)
Not that 2 BCs/2 TWLCs/10 DCCW attacks/2 Melta bombs/a PF/an AR cannon have ever failed me. But i cant get Multi Meltas on Scout speeders. Or a Teleporting Giant Terminator. Or Lance Weapons. We make do with what we have.
Chaos Lord + Deamon Weapon + Mark of Tzeench = Assault d6 Ap3 Bolter shots. Granted its not going to wipe out a squad of Terminators nor does it with the long range award.
And for the record i dont appreciate you calling people you never even met "roasting noobs". Some of them have been playing for as long as you have (way back in 2nd ed era).
Tyrs13 wrote:GK and DE are tough match ups defiantly, but they are not impossible to beat.
I merely suggest you use something other then the standard Chaos SM. Sure they are more points and you will have issues with "Model Count". But you do get alot of bang for your buck.
(How many games at 1.5k have more then 1 LR? Or more then what 10 individual squads, with horde armies?)
Not that 2 BCs/2 TWLCs/10 DCCW attacks/2 Melta bombs/a PF/an AR cannon have ever failed me. But i cant get Multi Meltas on Scout speeders. Or a Teleporting Giant Terminator. Or Lance Weapons. We make do with what we have.
Chaos Lord + Deamon Weapon + Mark of Tzeench = Assault d6 Ap3 Bolter shots. Granted its not going to wipe out a squad of Terminators nor does it with the long range award.
And for the record i dont appreciate you calling people you never even met "roasting noobs". Some of them have been playing for as long as you have (way back in 2nd ed era).
And do you think no other player has tried using non standard CSM? Please tell me you are not assuming that none of us posting have tried using units outside of the cookie cutting internet lists? 2 CSM units i endorse quite happily are havocs and raptors, which have a pretty mediocre rep. Maybe its the players around me, or the lists they bring, or the tables we make, but they've worked quite well for me. I can still see why alot of people rag on them though. And a lot of bang for your buck is situational, as against da boyz, its the same bang (as my normal bolters ignore their armor) for less buck.
more than 10 individual squads ain't too hard with cheap an' nasty units like riflemen, typhoons, even razorspam.
That chaos lord has a 1/6 chance of whopping himself in shooting, and CC. If your local meta is quite MEQ heavy, he's a goodun. And uhhhh... deepstriking him? solol? He's begging to be ID'd.
And for the record, two of my best mates have been playing since rogue trader era. One of them is good, the other is a total ing scrub. Whom I've mopped the floor with using silly lists. Not talking myself up thar, I'm just saying that just because you've been playing for a long time doesn't mean that you aren't a noob up for the roasting.
Precisely. Despite people's claims to the contrary, I've never once claimed that Chaos "can't win." That's a silly claim as there are more factors to winning a game to 40k than list strength only.
Just because I can win when I get lucky, or when my opponent plays poorly, or when they're using a sub-par list, does not mean that the codex is still good.
DAaddict wrote:Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?
Obliterators only have a 5+ invul and are only T4, anything S8 kills it, anything AP2/1 will hurt it badly (meltas will kill it), anything S8 and AP2/1 destroys it (demolishers, meltas, lascannons, dark lances, blasters, brightlances, railguns, exorcist missiles, prism cannons, being under the hole of a monolith template...) and so does anything in close combat, since they're I1 thanks to only having PFs and a single attack each.
They're good, but they're still counterable.
As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.
I was not saying that obliterators are untouchable. What I was saying is that oblits are tough to kill and flexible in what they can engage. No other codex can get a swiss-army knife for 75 points that can handle anything through firepower.
I am not ignorant of the fact that plague marines still die to S8 and AP2 stuff. The point is that an opponent does not have a lot of optimal options to engage them. Let a marine pay his premium for sternguard and if he doesn't put combi-weapons on them, it ain't going to matter. 5+ to kill, 3+ to get through army 4+ to get through FNP still yields an average of one dead for every 18 hitting S4 weapons. Oh and by the way these are scoring so they can sit on objectives.
Nothing in CSM is an idiot beat-down choice but there is a lot of good options led by the chaos solid choices for their troop slots.
Idk why you are having so much trouble. I have taken on just about everything "Scary" (BA/NIDs/DE/GKs/SW) with my Chaos and come out roughly on top (or Tie). And i wouldn't say i was a better general then anyone...
Running at 1.5k
2 Kson squads (sorc w/8 ksons) Sorcs have MB ... i think .... with Rhinos (DBs save lives)
1 Termy squad (PF/2LC) mark of Tzeench and LR Ded trans. (DB saves lives)
2 Defilers (1 all melee arms)
1 Termy Lord with demonic weapon and Mark of tzeench for death screamer!
4++ Saves for everyone ... AP3 Bolters ... Defilers ... Termies w/ LR ... DS Lord (using marks).
And one day i will make a Repair Roll with my Rhinos!
Take this list to a competitive tourney and get back to me....
Justus wrote:To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.
I have to say I disagree with you about CSM vs Dark Eldar. If the Chaos Player is using a fully mechanized list, the DE player can have some real trouble. I have had a lot of success against DE with a 6 walker list.
Interceptors however, are another problem, and if the Gk player knows what he is doing, can be a HUGE problem for CSM.
DE has problems with Dreads, hands down. The DE infantry like Wyches, Incubi, BM squads are hardly able to take down a Dread. Man, I played a Furioso Dread w/ blood talons ripping through Incubi and BM like butter.
However, CSM have no fancy toys like blood talons, only a Dread that gets nuts and even then he's not very good.
willydstyle wrote:wyches with haywires handle dreads easily.
Well, I would not be so confident. If there is a Wych Raider approaching my Dread, I'd know what would be ranked high on my priority schedule. Wyches die easily when a Raider crashes.
DAaddict wrote:Almarine brings up some good points. The dex may be gimped in some respects but it still offers some unique combinations that every other codex does not have.
How do you compare 2-wound obliterators that can do TL plasma gun shots one turn followed by multi-melta shots the next?
How do you compare plaguemarines with FNP and T5 with other scoring troop choices?
Obliterators only have a 5+ invul and are only T4, anything S8 kills it, anything AP2/1 will hurt it badly (meltas will kill it), anything S8 and AP2/1 destroys it (demolishers, meltas, lascannons, dark lances, blasters, brightlances, railguns, exorcist missiles, prism cannons, being under the hole of a monolith template...) and so does anything in close combat, since they're I1 thanks to only having PFs and a single attack each.
They're good, but they're still counterable.
As for Plague Marines, they are NOT T5, they are T4(5) and there is a world of difference between the two. Your answer to regular CSMs and Marines (massed plasma, massed meltas, battlecannons, plasma cannons etc. etc.) is also your answer to Plague Marines; a battlecannon doesn't care if you have FNP, since it's S8 and causes you instant death. Krak missiles will kill them off if you have to.
I was not saying that obliterators are untouchable. What I was saying is that oblits are tough to kill and flexible in what they can engage. No other codex can get a swiss-army knife for 75 points that can handle anything through firepower.
I am not ignorant of the fact that plague marines still die to S8 and AP2 stuff. The point is that an opponent does not have a lot of optimal options to engage them. Let a marine pay his premium for sternguard and if he doesn't put combi-weapons on them, it ain't going to matter. 5+ to kill, 3+ to get through army 4+ to get through FNP still yields an average of one dead for every 18 hitting S4 weapons. Oh and by the way these are scoring so they can sit on objectives.
Nothing in CSM is an idiot beat-down choice but there is a lot of good options led by the chaos solid choices for their troop slots.
GKs get Space Monkeys. There's also the fact that you're paying 75pts for a single model (that's reaching some army's HQ points levels) that's only BS4. They're also not tough to kill; they're essentially a Terminator with 2 wounds, which at the end of the day, isn't spectacular. I'm not saying they're useless, only that they're still flawed; if you miss with your lascannon, then you're probably going to die next turn; Termicide is only slightly more expensive and vastly more effective.
You also wanted to compare Plague Marines to other troops, fine, they beat other MEQ troops. Factor in the rest of the army and you just need to apply what you would do to remove regular MEQ troops to removing Plague Marines; anything you'd use to kill regular marines en masse is optimal. They're sturdier against S7 and AP3+ weapons, but shooting them with plasma, meltas, battlecannons and the likes does the same damage as if you'd shot them at the 8pts cheaper CSMs. They're tough, but they're not the end of the world by far.
willydstyle wrote:Precisely. Despite people's claims to the contrary, I've never once claimed that Chaos "can't win." That's a silly claim as there are more factors to winning a game to 40k than list strength only.
Just because I can win when I get lucky, or when my opponent plays poorly, or when they're using a sub-par list, does not mean that the codex is still good.
I think the reason people assumed that you meant that Chaos can't win, is that you said they were not viable. They are viable, just not competitive.
Justus wrote:To be fair a veteran DE player can easily fry pretty much any Chaos player from what I've seen. Not to mention Grey Knights simply outclass us. An Interceptor Squad 40 more points than my stereotypical Chaos squad shot at my smoked Rhino, then mauled my Chaos boys in CC before they could do any damage.
I have to say I disagree with you about CSM vs Dark Eldar. If the Chaos Player is using a fully mechanized list, the DE player can have some real trouble. I have had a lot of success against DE with a 6 walker list.
Interceptors however, are another problem, and if the Gk player knows what he is doing, can be a HUGE problem for CSM.
DE has problems with Dreads, hands down. The DE infantry like Wyches, Incubi, BM squads are hardly able to take down a Dread. Man, I played a Furioso Dread w/ blood talons ripping through Incubi and BM like butter.
However, CSM have no fancy toys like blood talons, only a Dread that gets nuts and even then he's not very good.
I've had horrid luck with Chaos Dreads, they always have managed to kill me. I had a game where they kill a Defiler, a Vindicator, and one of them killed the other. Bad luck, very bad. That's led me to field them less often.
On a note to Plague Marines, if they showed their face at all during the course of my local meta they'd be dead quick. Too much AP 1-2 and power weapons to make them not a pointsink.
ColdSadHungry wrote:It's funny how a codex that includes units like Thousand Sons who have a 4+ invul save and AP3 bolters or Plague Marines who are T4(5) and have FNP and blight grenades is seen as a bad one. There's lots of really cool, specialized units in there - there's also Khorne Berzerkers, noise marines and obliterators too.
But whereas something like BA get special abilities to help them make use of their strengths (like loads of jump packs to get into CC faster or the ability to grant furious charge to everything), it seems like Chaos have been given these specializations but then just left to get on with it.
They'll be due a new codex sooner rather than later anyway and then they'll probably be considered OP, lol.
If those units were priced appropriately then they would be good. As it is, Plague Marines are one of the few good choices in the book, but everything else is so over-costed that the extra expense of plague marines ends up being not quite worth it in the end, I find.
Alright, I am not a doom and gloom that CSM sucks and is dead but it is long in the tooth and definitely overcosted. I would like to see the marks go back to being available based on taking a chaos lord of the given mark and that qualifying all troops for the full upgrade. (i.e. MoNCSM bikers get FNP, T+1 and plague grenades)
Plague Marines: Probably the closest thing to a unit that is priced correctly. Sure it has weaknesses but not bad investment for 23 points.
Berzerkers: Furious charge, WS5 and +1 A are all good but I think it is more in line with 18 pts a piece as they are highly vulnerable to ranged fire.
Noise Marines: 20 pts is the right cost WITH the sonic blaster. Currently I use them as the majority of my army but without the weapons. Alright old codex cost of autocannon for blastmaster is too little but 40 is way over priced. Perhaps a solid cost of 20 or 25 for the blastmaster.
1000 Sons: Sv 4++ solid with a bolter and SBP is not bad either as a fire support with AP3 bolter rounds. Weakest of any CSM because it totally sucks in HTH. 18 pts each or 21 pts each with 3++ sv.
The aspiring sorcerer should be either 30 pts PLUS spells or 60 pts with zero cost choice of spells. They are just too overpriced. Also perhaps an ability that allows the aspiring sorcerer to target something else than the squad otherwise you have a high cost anti-tank sorcerer who either wastes his shot or the squads shot.
Remove the icon as a designate of the MoK or whatever. Just make every marine qualify for the mark at a cost and not be dependent on one idiot with a flag surviving. Perhaps keep the banners as benifits for deep striking, +1 to summoning demons, vessels for greater demons to show up, maybe even a +1 to attacks or reroll misses option for all figs in the unit either once per game or forever.
Bring back some flavor to Lesser demons by allowing them to take marks and gain some benefits.
The way I've always seen it is CSM are to SM as SM are to SW.
However, playing a Slaaneshi army, I've taken apart a Tau army and Salamanders army in 1500 point games. I'd be more inclined to say that this was more the product of good fortune than anything else (Vulkan probably can't be relied upon to turn into Spawn every time).
I think the next codex should be based on the 3rd ed, since it's going to be Legions rather than renegades. Marks on normal units need to return, Sorcerers need more upgrades, and Daemon Princes should get at least a 4++ save.
you are trying to argue that CSM are underpowered when you compare their standard units to specialties of other codexes?
im sorry, but you sir are a fool.
Yes, you are correct, Blood Angels ASM are slightly cheaper (210 for the meltaguns not 200), but WAIT they are SUPPOSED to be good at assault THATS THEIR THEME.
Are prices higher than other books? Sure. But they do have good options too. Myself, I like big squads of Slaanesh terminators who go at I5 all the time, and can have COMBI-WEAPONS! At 5pts each. Um...yes please? Imps don't get those. You can also mix and match CC and shooting weapons in those squads. Really, what you are paying a higher price for are more options. You have the marks to enhance warriors, and you also have champions that you buy-but these (IMO) should only be bought if you have a greater daemon and he needs a sucker/host to pop out of. Then, you're paying for the option to pop out a GD. Do I wish some things were cheaper? Yes. Havoc weapons need to be cheaper, and so do the HQs (non-daemon ones) because they really aren't anywhere near as good as SM ones. But largely I enjoy the book. If playing against other 4E books or older, chaos holds its own VERY well. I had a squad of ten termies and a Khorne Lord take out half of my opponents DA army in one turn. They dropped down, melta'd a dreadnaught in the back, got charged by a bike squad, Belial with command squad and a second termie squad as well and sent them running for the hills. The Khorne Lord ate Belial and the rest of the army quickly folded to lots of I5 LCs. Yes, they do work and there are many builds. They can also pour melta onto the battlefield better than anyone (you can take 5 melta in each chosen squad, 4 in each havoc squad). They do a better job of this. I have no qualms with the book, other than lackluster options in comparison to the last book.
2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits
Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.
If that build were really "top tier" or even "middle tier" we'd be seeing it on the top tables at large events such as NOVA. We don't.
Even if it were, It's pretty easy to figure out and take down. str8 weapons will dominate pretty much everything in that list, maybe not the oblits with their 2+, but when they do fail that save they are gone. And people don't use lots of krak missiles or meltaguns, so it not that big of a dea...
oh. Right. Whoops
And Its pretty sad a codex has a choice of 3 units and a transport as its viable choices.
It's really damn sad when a codex has a choice of 3 units and a transport as its viable choices. The only other viable unit is the defiler which works best when combined with oblits, and is very easy to misuse. Oblits in a building and a defiler behind the building continues to work well in the meta. AV12 with a 4+cover and deamonic possession is pretty solid, but there is usually only 1 good terrain piece to hide behind which limits the selection to 1 defiler.
Once again a small number of viable builds is far superior to no viable builds. Things should be better in the future, especially if we get both a chaos legions and chaos renegades codex.
CSM is an older codex and is suffering from codex creep. As a codex gets older, the number of viable builds drops, until a codex is left with very few -- such as Eldar, Tau, or Necrons. The fact is a BA or SW player has multiple competitive builds they can base their army off of, and they all work. An Eldar player has 1 competitive build and 1 semi-competitive build. (I use Eldar as an example as I play the army) The CSM codex appears to be in a similar place.
Crusher050 wrote:im sorry this entire thread is bull...
...
im sorry, but you sir are a fool.
...
whine less
Troll moar?
actually it was not a troll post as i offered my reasoning behind each statement. You helpfully deleted them when quoting me, but I suppose that is acceptable. read moar.
now i wont say Chaos is the "best" but i believe if played correctly all armies can offer a challenge. some are easier to play correctly than others.
Comments like "you are a fool" and "whine less" are respectively personal attacks and flamebait. Both are against the rules here. Please stick to criticizing the arguments of other posters rather than the posters themselves. Thanks!
About a week ago I had a 2000 point game against chaos. My opponent had 9 oblits, a LR with terminators, plague marines in rhinos and a DP. One of the hardest lists this book can spew forth. After both of us had played 3 turns, he conceded. Admittedly, his rolls were less then average, but my dice weren't hot either. I think he was out 3 oblits, DP, LR, and all terminators by that point. My casualties were a rhino and 3-4 Thousand Sons. Perhaps chaos beating chaos isn't the example we were looking for, I dunno if it's a mark for or against the codex. I guess if one knows whats what, it's not hard to pull the teeth out of any list this book can bring.
CSM is an older codex and is suffering from codex creep. As a codex gets older, the number of viable builds drops, until a codex is left with very few -- such as Eldar, Tau, or Necrons. The fact is a BA or SW player has multiple competitive builds they can base their army off of, and they all work. An Eldar player has 1 competitive build and 1 semi-competitive build. (I use Eldar as an example as I play the army) The CSM codex appears to be in a similar place.
This.
Except it isn't really true. Old books like BT still have viable builds in them, heck DE still could win in the hands of a vet with its good build (singular, DE were a short book not fleshed out much), and SoB has solid if not super lists left in it before the WD nerf. DA can make a mean list now that GW decided to allow them to have modern weapons (still a bad book, but they do have a good mono build) Chaos got screwed on their new book, it was always bad from day one, the game has progressed enough to show it was bad. Eldar also were a bad copy pasta army that really wasn't any good from day one (any book that just nerfs and copies points from a previous book is going to be bad). Necrons were a gimmick army with no variety, its no wonder they suck after they changed the rule set to no longer favor that gimmick (in this case, always being able to glance with any weapon got nerfed by 5th ed).
My point? the books that people point to as being killed by codex creep were always bad. They got really screwed by new addition due to lack of options. Even orks with their almost reasonable number of options faired better than the awful CSM, necrons, and the almost bad eldar and tau (eldar and tau still have builds you can win against good armies with).
The only thing that keeps chaos afloat is that they have solid troop choices. Limited to be sure but as troops are the necessity of 5th edition that is the only hat they have to hang their hat on. Necrons and Tau really die on the fact they have crappy troop choices. Tau battlesuits and necron destroyers are still good but you are auto-gimped because your troop choices are a liability.
I feel your pain brother. As an Eldar player I am kinda in the same situation as you are. Hell, Eldar troops are upgrades for Wave Serpent, not the other way around In my instance however I kinda cut myself out of gaming community and play only with some close friends. We have Eldar (me), CSM, SW/GK, Tau and IG in the neighbourhood. Fortunately we like to play goofy and not optimized armies so the codex differences are not that important.
Dakka is the only place where I meet outside gaming world. One of the reasons is that I stopped playing in game stores was the difference of army strength. Well, not even that. More like it was the incredible difference between mentality of MEQ and xeno codexes. I may have been unlucky and this will sound very stereotypical but IoM armies were most of the time spammy, boring, internet copy-paste armies. There were butt-load of them and players playing them were gloating how great their army is. If I saw an xenos army I often really felt like the player was really into the hobby. There was also gloating and stuff but it was: "Waaaaaagh! Orks are the best, they will crush your pansy elfs", not "My terminators are 2+/3++. Pfff T3 4+".
Ok, all that I wanted to say (apparently) is that you are doing something wrong. I really know how you feel because I also was really tired of wh40k. However this hobby (like any other) should be about having fun and taking your mind off things, not giving you additional worries. You have to change something: your attitude, your army, people that you play or even change the hobby. I don't know what, but this is pointless dude. I know how stupid and over-used this sounds but the right attitude is a incredible thing. You won't have fun now. In your head you are a looser before a game even started. Stop this nonsense an start having fun right now!
CSM are still good, they only have one build that actually works against a wide variety of opponents. They are more cookie cutter than bad.
Dual lash sorcerer, Oblits, PMs can and do still win tournaments.
Are they top tier? Not really. But not the worst by any means, IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Macock
Eldar are still viable as well! Haha, I feel like a broken record in this thread. I win games and tournaments with my Eldar regularly and they still do well in tournaments, although they are certainly underrepresented these days.
I totally agree with you though, that you choose to have fun with this game, and your attitude is what matters. Having the right mindset is what makes the game (and anything, really) fun.
Yeah, I'm not saying they are not, but constant listening to how bad and overshadowed they are in 5th edition make them feel worse than they really are. That is the problem. The constant and unstoppable "codex creep", "older codexes", "not viable", "worse" creates this huuuuge gap, make you feel helpless and loose the joy/will to play. Before you try to find something good in your army you have to stop listening to the internets about how bad your army is.
Grow some chaos-balls and start feeling hate towards corpse emperor. Chaos should not envy IoM, it should feel sorry and despise it.
Haha, well said! The internet is a resource, not the gospel. Your own experience as a player is more important than what some pundit on the internet proclaims (not talking about the op, just in general).
Play what works for you and have the balls to stand behind your own results. It is souch cooler to win with a list you create than with a list you copy.
notabot187 wrote:Eldar also were a bad copy pasta army that really wasn't any good from day one (any book that just nerfs and copies points from a previous book is going to be bad).
Skimmers moving fast told me to say "what?", so I'm going to. What?
notabot187 wrote:Eldar also were a bad copy pasta army that really wasn't any good from day one (any book that just nerfs and copies points from a previous book is going to be bad).
I don't think you're remembering your history right. 4th edition eldar with Tri-Falcons and harlequins + snakes on a plane was really good in 4th.
Macok wrote:...constant listening to how bad and overshadowed they are in 5th edition make them feel worse than they really are. That is the problem. The constant and unstoppable "codex creep", "older codexes", "not viable", "worse" creates this huuuuge gap, make you feel helpless and loose the joy/will to play. Before you try to find something good in your army you have to stop listening to the internets about how bad your army is.
Grow some chaos-balls and start feeling hate towards corpse emperor. Chaos should not envy IoM, it should feel sorry and despise it.
Reecius wrote:Haha, well said! The internet is a resource, not the gospel. Your own experience as a player is more important than what some pundit on the internet proclaims (not talking about the op, just in general).
Play what works for you and have the balls to stand behind your own results. It is souch cooler to win with a list you create than with a list you copy.
This is really the key right here. And for the record, as several posters have said, Chaos has several viable builds that still work really well, and Chaos has some rocking Special Characters as well! One thing that I do when I'm feeling down about the lack of choices in my Codex, is running Abaddon and Typhus in a Land Raider together. It makes for a hella awesome game.
Reecius wrote:CSM are still good, they only have one build that actually works against a wide variety of opponents. They are more cookie cutter than bad.
Dual lash sorcerer, Oblits, PMs can and do still win tournaments.
Are they top tier? Not really. But not the worst by any means, IMO.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Macock
Eldar are still viable as well! Haha, I feel like a broken record in this thread. I win games and tournaments with my Eldar regularly and they still do well in tournaments, although they are certainly underrepresented these days.
I totally agree with you though, that you choose to have fun with this game, and your attitude is what matters. Having the right mindset is what makes the game (and anything, really) fun.
Chaos Space Marines are the "bad guys" of the 40k universe. As far as I can tell, they are the only non Daemon characters that do what they do because they want to, not because Slaanesh will eat their souls if they don't; not because they were tricked into following some near deity in avatar form to slaughter millions blindly; not because they are too primitive a species to understand how to spell the word "boys" correctly.
CSM are Chaotic because they get a thrill from it. This makes them the bad guys.
zechariahsword wrote:Chaos Space Marines are the "bad guys" of the 40k universe. As far as I can tell, they are the only non Daemon characters that do what they do because they want to, not because Slaanesh will eat their souls if they don't; not because they were tricked into following some near deity in avatar form to slaughter millions blindly; not because they are too primitive a species to understand how to spell the word "boys" correctly.
CSM are Chaotic because they get a thrill from it. This makes them the bad guys.
And the bad guy isn't suppose to win...
I agree with everything but the last statement.
In 40K, the Bad guys can and do win, it is a big part of the reason why the setting is so engaging. The bad guys are winning the war, the "good guys" if you can call anyone in 40K good, are losing, slowly.
Chaos Marines are free. They choose to fight because they think Chaos is the path to human domination of the galaxy. The Imperium is trying to do the same thing, they just follow the emperor instead. The Imperium is just as brutal and callous as Chaos.
However, fluff and the game are separate things. No one would want to buy and paint an army that was designed to lose. Therefore, all the armies should be as close to equal with one another as possible. The Bad Guys should be intimidating and scary, otherwise they aren't much of a threat. And, in game terms, they need to be able to win a game.
Chaos armies, IMO, should have individually more powerful models. Chaos warriors are all about personal glory and power. Imperial Marines are about team work and loyalty and as such, should be more about synergy between units. A Choas lord should be a total bad ass that wrecks face. An Imperial Marine Captain should also be tough in combat, but should be more geared towards benefiting his comrades and working as a team.
Chaos marines forsake the emperor for philosophical reasons, but embrace Chaos to increase in personal power. Therefore, they should be more powerful than regular marines (and they are).
Looking at it from a story or fluff perspective and saying the baddies should lose, the good guys should win, is too black and white and would make for a crappy game in real life. The setting should be more complex (which it is) and the armies should be equal in power.
first off as a chaos space marine player who has played for about two years now i would have to disagree.
chaos is a perfectly playable army.
while they may not live up to the fluff they do have alot of power and potential if played right. that may require using the cults alot. plauge noise thousand sons and bezerkers. but they are far from underpowered.
heck their basic guy gets tywo close combat weapons a bolter and krac plus frag grenades all for 15 points a model.
i would also like to remind you that 40k is a game that is not won by the individual model or creature but by doing the right thing at the right time in the right way.
chaos are playable but what you are asking for is that each of them essentially become evil grey knights.
this could be fun except you forget something, just because chaos marines strive for personal glory doenst mean they get it. if you read the codex it even says that many a champion of chaos has been turned into a spawn!
just because they choose to follow chaos for personal glory and fame etc does not mean they get it
and finally as for your statement
"A Choas lord should be a total bad ass that wrecks face"
try taking on a lord of slaanesh with a blissgiver and come back to me., cause i have had him single handily take out a unit of terminators with storm shields. so yeah he wreaks face.
also there is a khorn lord who can single handedly take out a mob of 15 ork boys if he rolls well.
chaos are a viable army you just got to play them right.
zechariahsword wrote:Chaos Space Marines are the "bad guys" of the 40k universe. As far as I can tell, they are the only non Daemon characters that do what they do because they want to, not because Slaanesh will eat their souls if they don't; not because they were tricked into following some near deity in avatar form to slaughter millions blindly; not because they are too primitive a species to understand how to spell the word "boys" correctly.
CSM are Chaotic because they get a thrill from it. This makes them the bad guys.
And the bad guy isn't suppose to win...
I agree with everything but the last statement.
In 40K, the Bad guys can and do win, it is a big part of the reason why the setting is so engaging. The bad guys are winning the war, the "good guys" if you can call anyone in 40K good, are losing, slowly.
Chaos Marines are free. They choose to fight because they think Chaos is the path to human domination of the galaxy. The Imperium is trying to do the same thing, they just follow the emperor instead. The Imperium is just as brutal and callous as Chaos.
However, fluff and the game are separate things. No one would want to buy and paint an army that was designed to lose. Therefore, all the armies should be as close to equal with one another as possible. The Bad Guys should be intimidating and scary, otherwise they aren't much of a threat. And, in game terms, they need to be able to win a game.
Chaos armies, IMO, should have individually more powerful models. Chaos warriors are all about personal glory and power. Imperial Marines are about team work and loyalty and as such, should be more about synergy between units. A Choas lord should be a total bad ass that wrecks face. An Imperial Marine Captain should also be tough in combat, but should be more geared towards benefiting his comrades and working as a team.
Chaos marines forsake the emperor for philosophical reasons, but embrace Chaos to increase in personal power. Therefore, they should be more powerful than regular marines (and they are).
Looking at it from a story or fluff perspective and saying the baddies should lose, the good guys should win, is too black and white and would make for a crappy game in real life. The setting should be more complex (which it is) and the armies should be equal in power.
If they weren't designed to lose, why is EVERY battle an uphill one for them (unless you are fighting Tau Kroot spam... then it's equal footing). I haven't played a game with every solid list I've made that didn't feel like it was a painful struggle when I wanted to win. So I've decided to just go ahead and give in and be a road bump instead of the major threat that we once was.
I'm not saying they aren't playable, nor that they cannot win. I'm saying that we should accept what we have at the moment, even if it is simply the role of bad guy who must inevitably fall for the good guys to get the girls.
zechariahsword wrote:If they weren't designed to lose, why is EVERY battle an uphill one for them (unless you are fighting Tau Kroot spam... then it's equal footing). I haven't played a game with every solid list I've made that didn't feel like it was a painful struggle when I wanted to win. So I've decided to just go ahead and give in and be a road bump instead of the major threat that we once was.
I'm not saying they aren't playable, nor that they cannot win. I'm saying that we should accept what we have at the moment, even if it is simply the role of bad guy who must inevitably fall for the good guys to get the girls.
What kind of crack are you smoking? This isn't a movie, its a game mate. Do you really think GW are going to purposely gimp ALL the bad guys and make the good guys tougher? If you can't win with your CSM, or its a painful struggle to win, either your playing way out of your league or you are just plain bad mate. Part of 40k is that the good guys ARE BAD GUYS. You think planetary cleansing is "good"? The barbaric nature of marines is "good"? The sheer scale of human life thrown away in the Imperial guard to be "good"? The arrogance of the Eldar and their manipulation of others "good"?
Every battle except Tau Kroot spam is uphill? What kind of lists do you make?!? Are you playing in non-stop hyper competitive tournaments, or are you seriously just terribad? I doubt you are playing competitive, as someone who is happy to be a "road bump" wouldn't have what I call a competitive spirit. Seriously, post up an average list of yours, so we can judge you on your status as a "road bump"- whether its the problem with the tools in the box or the tradesman using it.
marmaduke wrote:and finally as for your statement
"A Choas lord should be a total bad ass that wrecks face"
try taking on a lord of slaanesh with a blissgiver and come back to me., cause i have had him single handily take out a unit of terminators with storm shields. so yeah he wreaks face.
also there is a khorn lord who can single handedly take out a mob of 15 ork boys if he rolls well.
chaos are a viable army you just got to play them right.
so any questions?
You got lucky with the terminators. Average DW roll of 4 coupled with the Lord's 3 attacks + 1 for charging (assuming hedid) is 8 attacks, hitting on 3s for 5.3 hits, wounding on 4s for 2.65 wounds, with the Terminators saving on 3+ for 0.88245 dead terminators, or, 1. Terminators then strike back with 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.332 wounds and 2.222444 dead Chaos Lords. Try it some more and get back to us.
Khorne Lords can take out squads if they roll well, the key word being 'if'. My Bloodfeeder Lord has done some great things, but the vast majority of other people's have not, compared to the much less random Twin LC Khorne Lord. Taking out the 15 boys would also require you to roll 12 for your DW attacks, hit with every attack and wound with every attack; hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s means that, on average, 12 attacks get 8 hits and 4 wounds.
As a Chaos Player for 4 years, you cannot use lucky rolls to determine how useful an army is, otherwise i'd be declaring Tau to be the best CC army in the game.
Anybody that honestly believes csm were designed to lose has not been playing the game very long. If csm were designed to lose why was the codex so insanely overpowered at the time of its release? Whythen was csm argueably the most powerful codex ever released in 4th ed?
schadenfreude wrote:Anybody that honestly believes csm were designed to lose has not been playing the game very long. If csm were designed to lose why was the codex so insanely overpowered at the time of its release? Whythen was csm argueably the most powerful codex ever released in 4th ed?
It wasn't. People flipped out about it, as is normal for new codex releases. I'm not saying that GW designed them to lose, as that's a silly argument, but your position is not that strong either.
You got lucky with the terminators. Average DW roll of 4 coupled with the Lord's 3 attacks + 1 for charging (assuming hedid) is 8 attacks, hitting on 3s for 5.3 hits, wounding on 4s for 2.65 wounds, with the Terminators saving on 3+ for 0.88245 dead terminators, or, 1. Terminators then strike back with 8 attacks, 4 hits, 3.332 wounds and 2.222444 dead Chaos Lords. Try it some more and get back to us.
Khorne Lords can take out squads if they roll well, the key word being 'if'. My Bloodfeeder Lord has done some great things, but the vast majority of other people's have not, compared to the much less random Twin LC Khorne Lord. Taking out the 15 boys would also require you to roll 12 for your DW attacks, hit with every attack and wound with every attack; hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s means that, on average, 12 attacks get 8 hits and 4 wounds.
As a Chaos Player for 4 years, you cannot use lucky rolls to determine how useful an army is, otherwise i'd be declaring Tau to be the best CC army in the game.
i agree that it is luck on the part of the terminators but how many hqs can go up or take out an entire squad of effectivly instant death another hq.
and i was also using that as an example that a chaos lord can wreck face
and dont joke about tau
as for choas i still dont see how they are not a valid army
One time I saw a Crisis suit commander assault a terminator squad, kill two of them, and then they whiffed entirely. They broke from combat and ran off the table. Still doesn't make Tau commanders good in close combat.
marmaduke wrote:the point i am trying to get across is they are basically the only army that can get up to 15 attacks from a lord
so can we move past the luck part
But those 15 attacks are statistically less likely to actually kill stuff, especially when you factor in that the chance to make 0 attacks is *much higher* than the chance to get 15 attacks, than other HQ options.
schadenfreude wrote:Anybody that honestly believes csm were designed to lose has not been playing the game very long. If csm were designed to lose why was the codex so insanely overpowered at the time of its release? Whythen was csm argueably the most powerful codex ever released in 4th ed?
It wasn't. People flipped out about it, as is normal for new codex releases. I'm not saying that GW designed them to lose, as that's a silly argument, but your position is not that strong either.
Agreed, the Eldar Codex was far stronger, what with those stupid Harlequins and flying circus.
schadenfreude wrote:Anybody that honestly believes csm were designed to lose has not been playing the game very long. If csm were designed to lose why was the codex so insanely overpowered at the time of its release? Whythen was csm argueably the most powerful codex ever released in 4th ed?
It wasn't. People flipped out about it, as is normal for new codex releases. I'm not saying that GW designed them to lose, as that's a silly argument, but your position is not that strong either.
You're not saying CSM are were to lose, but other people here have said that exact statement.
I stand by my previous statement that CSM was overpowered when it was first released, and that 4th ed CSM was a giant leap forward in the concept of the codex creep. In September 2007 CSM was the most powerful codex released up to that point in time. What were the top tier armies in September 2007, and where was chaos in the pecking order? The only other 4th ed books out at the time were Eldar, DE, Tau, and BT. Everybody else was 3rd ed, and armies were not heavily mechanized yet.
schadenfreude wrote:Anybody that honestly believes csm were designed to lose has not been playing the game very long. If csm were designed to lose why was the codex so insanely overpowered at the time of its release? Whythen was csm argueably the most powerful codex ever released in 4th ed?
It wasn't. People flipped out about it, as is normal for new codex releases. I'm not saying that GW designed them to lose, as that's a silly argument, but your position is not that strong either.
You're not saying CSM are were to lose, but other people here have said that exact statement.
I stand by my previous statement that CSM was overpowered when it was first released, and that 4th ed CSM was a giant leap forward in the concept of the codex creep. In September 2007 CSM was the most powerful codex released up to that point in time. What were the top tier armies in September 2007, and where was chaos in the pecking order? The only other 4th ed books out at the time were Eldar, DE, Tau, and BT. Everybody else was 3rd ed, and armies were not heavily mechanized yet.
Nidzilla, Mechdar, Mech Tau (Both extremely powerful due to LoS rules and Skimmers Moving Fast), MSU Space Marine gunline were all powerful builds, better than "plague lash oblits", and all came from 4th ed books that were released *before* Chaos Space Marines. DE was *never* a 4th ed book.
schadenfreude wrote:Anybody that honestly believes csm were designed to lose has not been playing the game very long. If csm were designed to lose why was the codex so insanely overpowered at the time of its release? Whythen was csm argueably the most powerful codex ever released in 4th ed?
It wasn't. People flipped out about it, as is normal for new codex releases. I'm not saying that GW designed them to lose, as that's a silly argument, but your position is not that strong either.
You're not saying CSM are were to lose, but other people here have said that exact statement.
I stand by my previous statement that CSM was overpowered when it was first released, and that 4th ed CSM was a giant leap forward in the concept of the codex creep. In September 2007 CSM was the most powerful codex released up to that point in time. What were the top tier armies in September 2007, and where was chaos in the pecking order? The only other 4th ed books out at the time were Eldar, DE, Tau, and BT. Everybody else was 3rd ed, and armies were not heavily mechanized yet.
DE certainly didnt get a 4th ed book... If memory served, nids and SM was also at 4th ed at that point.
Double Lash/Nurgle/Obliterators had it's good days, but against mech Tau and Mech Eldar it would have a hard time.
zechariahsword wrote:If they weren't designed to lose, why is EVERY battle an uphill one for them (unless you are fighting Tau Kroot spam... then it's equal footing). I haven't played a game with every solid list I've made that didn't feel like it was a painful struggle when I wanted to win. So I've decided to just go ahead and give in and be a road bump instead of the major threat that we once was.
I'm not saying they aren't playable, nor that they cannot win. I'm saying that we should accept what we have at the moment, even if it is simply the role of bad guy who must inevitably fall for the good guys to get the girls.
What kind of crack are you smoking? This isn't a movie, its a game mate. Do you really think GW are going to purposely gimp ALL the bad guys and make the good guys tougher? If you can't win with your CSM, or its a painful struggle to win, either your playing way out of your league or you are just plain bad mate. Part of 40k is that the good guys ARE BAD GUYS. You think planetary cleansing is "good"? The barbaric nature of marines is "good"? The sheer scale of human life thrown away in the Imperial guard to be "good"? The arrogance of the Eldar and their manipulation of others "good"?
Every battle except Tau Kroot spam is uphill? What kind of lists do you make?!? Are you playing in non-stop hyper competitive tournaments, or are you seriously just terribad? I doubt you are playing competitive, as someone who is happy to be a "road bump" wouldn't have what I call a competitive spirit. Seriously, post up an average list of yours, so we can judge you on your status as a "road bump"- whether its the problem with the tools in the box or the tradesman using it.
Lol. Not saying you are a flaming troll Jihallah, just saying you sound like one in that post.
My lists have always been either close or exactly the "meta" of Chaos Marines. I always try to add a little spice and variety to them for entertainment and individuality's sake, but most every list usually involves either Dual Princes of either Nurgle/Lash flavor, or Sorc with Lash, Plague Marines, Oblits, and other things that are suppose to be decent such as Zerkers, CSM standard, and occassionally a termicide or two. I like to try to use Slaanesh themed stuff besides a DP like Lords/Raptors and even considered trying out Noise Marines, but eventually it all gets phased out due to uselessness.
The only army I have not lost to was a low points Imperial Guard, and it was BECAUSE of my tactics that won me the game, not in spite of it (the game was objective based, and I succeeded in morale shoving one of his troops off the field with my termicide unit, and contesting another objective with the same termie unit, then held an objective building on the final turn). That's not to say that if it wasn't only objectives for the victory I wouldn't have lost... he outgunned me so heavily that I only had two units left on the field by the final round... he had only lost one troop, one Chimera, and an elite unit that I cannot recall their name.
Every other army I've played is always the same game: I'm outgunned (including CC), or out manned. It's like a slap in the face when my opponent can field a unit of 6 Wraiths that do 1 trillion CC attacks at I6 and my Zerkers in the same game can only do 30+/- one I lower... which of course means I have no Zerkers left even if I charge... Don't tell me I just needed to shoot them either! I was pumping every Plasma gun/Lascannon/Multimelta/Meltagun my 8 Oblits and 2 units of Plague marines could muster at them and the Necron lord traveling with them... they just would not die. I could've been rolling low, and he could've been rolling high, which was the case, but regardless it's still a heavy insult to have him carving through my so-called "tough" units.
Tau is the same game, only with more shooting instead of CC... I have never succeeded in taking down a Tau army regardless of how focused I am in my targeting.
There are more and more examples but I think at this point you get it (or not, you may just say I'm terribad regardless).
My point is: regardless of how well or badly I play my units, I have always been outgunned with the "solid" lists of CSM. And usually, whoever gets to shoot/attack more get's a higher chance of good rolls.
As far as my "competitive spirit" is concerned... If I was playing this game to be competitive and not for fun... I'd play SW/BA/GK/IG/DE. But, I enjoy playing the end all be all bad guys, regardless of how "terribad" they are.
I think I should make it clear that even though I've lost the majority of my games, I still enjoy playing them.
zechariahsword wrote:If they weren't designed to lose, why is EVERY battle an uphill one for them (unless you are fighting Tau Kroot spam... then it's equal footing). I haven't played a game with every solid list I've made that didn't feel like it was a painful struggle when I wanted to win. So I've decided to just go ahead and give in and be a road bump instead of the major threat that we once was.
I'm not saying they aren't playable, nor that they cannot win. I'm saying that we should accept what we have at the moment, even if it is simply the role of bad guy who must inevitably fall for the good guys to get the girls.
What kind of crack are you smoking? This isn't a movie, its a game mate. Do you really think GW are going to purposely gimp ALL the bad guys and make the good guys tougher? If you can't win with your CSM, or its a painful struggle to win, either your playing way out of your league or you are just plain bad mate. Part of 40k is that the good guys ARE BAD GUYS. You think planetary cleansing is "good"? The barbaric nature of marines is "good"? The sheer scale of human life thrown away in the Imperial guard to be "good"? The arrogance of the Eldar and their manipulation of others "good"?
Every battle except Tau Kroot spam is uphill? What kind of lists do you make?!? Are you playing in non-stop hyper competitive tournaments, or are you seriously just terribad? I doubt you are playing competitive, as someone who is happy to be a "road bump" wouldn't have what I call a competitive spirit. Seriously, post up an average list of yours, so we can judge you on your status as a "road bump"- whether its the problem with the tools in the box or the tradesman using it.
Lol. Not saying you are a flaming troll Jihallah, just saying you sound like one in that post.
My lists have always been either close or exactly the "meta" of Chaos Marines. I always try to add a little spice and variety to them for entertainment and individuality's sake, but most every list usually involves either Dual Princes of either Nurgle/Lash flavor, or Sorc with Lash, Plague Marines, Oblits, and other things that are suppose to be decent such as Zerkers, CSM standard, and occassionally a termicide or two. I like to try to use Slaanesh themed stuff besides a DP like Lords/Raptors and even considered trying out Noise Marines, but eventually it all gets phased out due to uselessness.
The only army I have not lost to was a low points Imperial Guard, and it was BECAUSE of my tactics that won me the game, not in spite of it (the game was objective based, and I succeeded in morale shoving one of his troops off the field with my termicide unit, and contesting another objective with the same termie unit, then held an objective building on the final turn). That's not to say that if it wasn't only objectives for the victory I wouldn't have lost... he outgunned me so heavily that I only had two units left on the field by the final round... he had only lost one troop, one Chimera, and an elite unit that I cannot recall their name.
Every other army I've played is always the same game: I'm outgunned (including CC), or out manned. It's like a slap in the face when my opponent can field a unit of 6 Wraiths that do 1 trillion CC attacks at I6 and my Zerkers in the same game can only do 30+/- one I lower... which of course means I have no Zerkers left even if I charge... Don't tell me I just needed to shoot them either! I was pumping every Plasma gun/Lascannon/Multimelta/Meltagun my 8 Oblits and 2 units of Plague marines could muster at them and the Necron lord traveling with them... they just would not die. I could've been rolling low, and he could've been rolling high, which was the case, but regardless it's still a heavy insult to have him carving through my so-called "tough" units.
Tau is the same game, only with more shooting instead of CC... I have never succeeded in taking down a Tau army regardless of how focused I am in my targeting.
There are more and more examples but I think at this point you get it (or not, you may just say I'm terribad regardless).
My point is: regardless of how well or badly I play my units, I have always been outgunned with the "solid" lists of CSM. And usually, whoever gets to shoot/attack more get's a higher chance of good rolls.
As far as my "competitive spirit" is concerned... If I was playing this game to be competitive and not for fun... I'd play SW/BA/GK/IG/DE. But, I enjoy playing the end all be all bad guys, regardless of how "terribad" they are.
I think I should make it clear that even though I've lost the majority of my games, I still enjoy playing them.
I play a list with emporer's children and either two lash princes or two lash sorcerers. While not as overpowering due to the penchant for SM /SW to play a librarian and mess all over my lashes, I have still won with it quite consistently. I do not think that CSM is hopeless but it is underpowered/overpriced. I do agree that at 1850 I am probably short almost a squad of marines versus my loyalist counterpart (or a spare landspeeder or two for the SM).
However - as we do not have a number of GK players - I have not faced them yet so I can't answer to that nor DE as I am the lone DE player in our area. Against SW, SM and the like, CSM still have just enough tricks up their sleeve to make life painful for an opponent.
(Doesn't mean I don't long for the days of Autocannon/Blastmaster equivalence or slaanesh drug packs or the like.)
I think you can still do a solid themed CSM list with all your troop choices but the value of your elites, heavies and fast attack choices is weak either due to cost or effectiveness or both.
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.
Reecius wrote:In 40K, the Bad guys can and do win, it is a big part of the reason why the setting is so engaging. The bad guys are winning the war, the "good guys" if you can call anyone in 40K good, are losing, slowly.
This is breaking off into fluff vs game, but one of the cool things is what Reecius touched on.
You cannot call the imperium 'good' when it will slaughter billions of people to prevent a risk of infection. You cannot call a system that sacrifices hundreds of psykers every day to the soul of the emperor 'good'.
There are no real 'good guys' in Warhammer. There are just factions with their own self-motivated interests.
DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.
Actually....
1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.
These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.
DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.
Actually....
1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.
These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.
1 Agreed
2 Agreed
4 Agreed
3 I kind of like the questionable nature of demon weapons the problem is a roll of a 1 causing you to lose all of your base attacks. I would like it if on a roll of a 1 it did 1 wound to you but otherwise it would still allow you to make other attacks. e.g. So a khorne lord with a demon blade rolls a 1 and a 6 he gets his base 4 attacks +1 for charging and he gets the bonus 6 attacks from his one roll but he also suffers 1 attack due to his roll of a 1.
2 Lash sorcerers
Double Melta gun PM squads
Rhinos with havocs, combi plas, or combi melta
Oblits
Limit the unit selection to those 4 units and all of the sudden Chaos is still a tier 1 codex. We have 1 top tier competitive build that many lists rightfully fear. There are a few counters to the 1 competitive chaos list, but the 1 competitive chaos list is a very hard counter to many top tier lists. Don't get me wrong I can't wait for a new codex with some fething options and multiple competitive builds, but don't call chaos a bottom tier army because that statement just isn't fair to bottom tier armies such as Tau or Necrons.
You are still out-MSU'd. You lack ranged support beyond the Obliterators (or other options; Autolas preds are actually better for you in some cases since they saturate better with the fact you're doing ye olden Rhino Rush), who for cost are...rather inefficient. Compare 2 Obliterators to a Rifleman Dreadnought, 10 Lootas, 2 Hydra Flax Tanks...even a pair of Eldar War Walkers with Missile Launchers (or the generally more-reliable dual Scatter Laser) configuration all outdo you in the ability to perform ranged suppression.
In short, you win based on your opponent's ability or inability to moveblock, stunlock, or otherwise prevent your vehicles from delivering melta-cargo, or to to deal with your Plagues in assault. *This* is not the benchmark of a good army; good armies rely on having the tools and ability to adapt tactics for whatever foes they may conceivably face; bad lists rely on their opposition not being able to adapt in turn, and Chaos in particular is very plug-and-play due to lacking other reliable options.
DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.
Actually....
1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.
These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.
1) Keep the dreadnough's crazed rule. Revert back to a previous edition where the dreadnought doubled it's number of attacks when it goes CC crazed.
2) Icons can stay icons, they just need to do more. Nurgle=+1T, FNP, slow and purposeful, slaneesh +1I, fleet, fearless....
3) Deamon weapons should rebel on a 6 with attacks still going off.
3) And bring back mark specific vehicle upgrades such as nugle infestation, khorne destroyer, warpfire, and warp amp.
3 I kind of like the questionable nature of demon weapons the problem is a roll of a 1 causing you to lose all of your base attacks. I would like it if on a roll of a 1 it did 1 wound to you but otherwise it would still allow you to make other attacks. e.g. So a khorne lord with a demon blade rolls a 1 and a 6 he gets his base 4 attacks +1 for charging and he gets the bonus 6 attacks from his one roll but he also suffers 1 attack due to his roll of a 1.
schadenfreude wrote:
1) Keep the dreadnough's crazed rule. Revert back to a previous edition where the dreadnought doubled it's number of attacks when it goes CC crazed.
2) Icons can stay icons, they just need to do more. Nurgle=+1T, FNP, slow and purposeful, slaneesh +1I, fleet, fearless....
3) Deamon weapons should rebel on a 6 with attacks still going off.
3) And bring back mark specific vehicle upgrades such as nugle infestation, khorne destroyer, warpfire, and warp amp.
DAaddict, I agree with you. The demon weapons are junk because really...rolling a 1 on your demon weapon is currently a death sentence for your character, when I believe the intent was just to make it dangerous for the poor lord using it. If you stand still and drool for a turn in CC, you'll most likely be murdered that turn in CC or shot to death in the enemy's following turn. So basically yes, as long as he gets to always make his attacks, adding a bonus attack or whatever from the weapon, then yea he can suck a wound.
Schadenfreude, the 3.5 Dreadnought crazed rule was the best because it precluded the dreadnought from blasting your own forces most of the time, and that's the real problem with the dreadnought. Anything in your army that you can't really count on is a potentially wasted unit. Even orks have removed most of the randomness from their codex these days, so Chaos really should to. And with all the nifty toys that Marine dreads get these days, Chaos doesn't need any more negatives. (Also note that making this change would make Monster Mash about 300% more viable as well.)
Your other suggestions I agree with, except to say that the 3.5 codex essentially did all the things you are talking about. It's just frustrating that nowadays, a bad torrent roll can reduce your troops to regular CSM's, which is silly.
My point was just that, if you made those four simple changes, which don't require any new rules or points additions/reductions, and could be done with a simple FAQ, the Chaos army suddenly gets alot more teeth.
zechariahsword wrote:My point is: regardless of how well or badly I play my units, I have always been outgunned with the "solid" lists of CSM. And usually, whoever gets to shoot/attack more get's a higher chance of good rolls.
As far as my "competitive spirit" is concerned... If I was playing this game to be competitive and not for fun... I'd play SW/BA/GK/IG/DE. But, I enjoy playing the end all be all bad guys, regardless of how "terribad" they are.
I think I should make it clear that even though I've lost the majority of my games, I still enjoy playing them.
So you're a scrub. No worries mate enjoy being a roadbump. Your posting has inspired me to go on a CSM rampage this weekend (And I was going to test someones excellent Vulkan list, I'll put that on hold). I'm going to enjoy stomping some guard, showing the falseness of the Imperium's emperor (vanilla SM) and getting into a headbutting contest with some wolves
DAaddict wrote:
My biggest rant on chaos is landraiders not having a machine spirit. It makes raiders into immobile pillboxes or fast assault vehicles. There is no value to moving 6" as you pay for both those TL las cannons and TL heavybolter and if you move 6" you only get to fire 1 weapon system. I will gladly give up my discount of 30 or so points for some form of machine spirit.
Actually....
1) Remove Dreadnought "Crazed" rule.
2) Make Icons count as full fledged Marks, (ie, not losing it when you lose the Icon)
3) Remove Demon Weapons rebelling on a 1.
4) Add "Infernal Spirit" back to Land Raiders at +30 points.
These changes would make the Chaos book a whole new ball game all by themselves.
1) Keep the dreadnough's crazed rule. Revert back to a previous edition where the dreadnought doubled it's number of attacks when it goes CC crazed.
2) Icons can stay icons, they just need to do more. Nurgle=+1T, FNP, slow and purposeful, slaneesh +1I, fleet, fearless....
3) Deamon weapons should rebel on a 6 with attacks still going off.
3) And bring back mark specific vehicle upgrades such as nugle infestation, khorne destroyer, warpfire, and warp amp.
2) Icons should be available to units that have bought the appropriate mark. eg, MoS, 5pts for each member of the unit. Icon of Slaanesh, 15 pts. Gives Fleet and Fearless.
3) Daemon weapons should rebel on a 1 or 6, but the user avoids the wound with a successful Leadership test, and fights counting as being armed with a power weapon with the added attacks.
zechariahsword wrote:
Every other army I've played is always the same game: I'm outgunned (including CC), or out manned. It's like a slap in the face when my opponent can field a unit of 6 Wraiths that do 1 trillion CC attacks at I6 and my Zerkers in the same game can only do 30+/- one I lower... which of course means I have no Zerkers left even if I charge... Don't tell me I just needed to shoot them either! I was pumping every Plasma gun/Lascannon/Multimelta/Meltagun my 8 Oblits and 2 units of Plague marines could muster at them and the Necron lord traveling with them... they just would not die. I could've been rolling low, and he could've been rolling high, which was the case, but regardless it's still a heavy insult to have him carving through my so-called "tough" units.
Wait, so you're now complaining that CSM are bad because you lost to NECRONS?
zechariahsword wrote:
Every other army I've played is always the same game: I'm outgunned (including CC), or out manned. It's like a slap in the face when my opponent can field a unit of 6 Wraiths that do 1 trillion CC attacks at I6 and my Zerkers in the same game can only do 30+/- one I lower... which of course means I have no Zerkers left even if I charge... Don't tell me I just needed to shoot them either! I was pumping every Plasma gun/Lascannon/Multimelta/Meltagun my 8 Oblits and 2 units of Plague marines could muster at them and the Necron lord traveling with them... they just would not die. I could've been rolling low, and he could've been rolling high, which was the case, but regardless it's still a heavy insult to have him carving through my so-called "tough" units.
Wait, so you're now complaining that CSM are bad because you lost to NECRONS?
There is something terrible wrong with what you are describing. I have been playing Necrons for four years now, and I can assure you, a berzerker charge is a very bad thing for a Necron army. Also, 6 Wraith do not even come close to wiping out a unit of Berzerkers before they swing. I would say that your experience is far from typical and in no way an insult to CSM, but rather an example of bad luck.
schadenfreude wrote:I stand by my previous statement that CSM was overpowered when it was first released, and that 4th ed CSM was a giant leap forward in the concept of the codex creep. In September 2007 CSM was the most powerful codex released up to that point in time. What were the top tier armies in September 2007, and where was chaos in the pecking order? The only other 4th ed books out at the time were Eldar, DE, Tau, and BT. Everybody else was 3rd ed, and armies were not heavily mechanized yet.
I'm not sure where you're getting your data. 4th edition was released in 2004. Here's the codex schedule from 4th ed.:
2008 Chaos Daemons
2008 Orks
Sep. 2007 Chaos Space Marines
June 2007 Blood Angels
March 2007 Dark Angels
2006 Tau
2006 Eldar
2005 Black Templar
2005 Tyranids
2005 Catachans
2004 Space Marines
The only 4th edition codices to be released after Chaos were Orks and Daemons. And neither really exemplified "codex creep." The 4th ed. codex creep started with the 4th edition Space Marine codex, mainly due to the strength of the Chaos codex at the time. This was mainly because the Imperial forces got curbstomped by Chaos during the EoT campaign.
extrenm(54) wrote:
There is something terrible wrong with what you are describing. I have been playing Necrons for four years now, and I can assure you, a berzerker charge is a very bad thing for a Necron army. Also, 6 Wraith do not even come close to wiping out a unit of Berzerkers before they swing. I would say that your experience is far from typical and in no way an insult to CSM, but rather an example of bad luck.
It was probably bad luck, yes, but I was put in the horrid position of being forced to charge into a Wraith-wing with 8 Zerkers or let him charge me with it instead. I was cut down to 2 Zerkers before I could even attack back... killing nothing.
Sadly the game was "capture and control" and he had two Monoliths... two monoliths that could just sit on each objective without fear of losing them =/
I tried my best to kill his Necron Destroyer Lord with a res orb, but somehow he survived 5 Lascannon shots, 3 TL Plasma, and 2 Melta shots for 3 turns before he destroyed all of my troops.
Learned my lesson though... don't bring Khorne Zerkers to a fight when your opponent can't bleed.
If CSM is going to be competitive, the one thing it needs is an update/change. More options would be nice; I feel Icons giving temporary forms of marks and playing as Deepstrike markers at the same time rather than having the two things exclusive outside of cult troops sort of choked a lot of options. Not to mention making ML Havoc groups costing potentially far more than a unit of Oblits. There are more problems than this but most have already been said.
Then again, a friend of a friend of mine told me that a friend of his friend use to work for GW, and that the "Chaos Legions" and "Chaos Renegades" are in fact not two different books... he says they are 5 different books: "Renegades" being something akin to Grey Knights with a crossover of Generic CSM and Traitorous Guard, and "Legions" being 4 different codices each representing a Chaos God. If true it would seem a bit overblown, but then again, Imperial SM get Vanilla, BT, DA, BA, SW, and GK. Also, if true, it would COMPLETELY change how they are played altogether. Rumors, however, so take this with a grain of salt; I don't fully believe it either.
and about to go to work (always an excellent combination 
) I'd post more (I'll be back 
