Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Welcome to Dakka

That thread was originally about paper terrain but swiftly got derailed into a discussion about paper models. If I remember correctly that soon became rather heated, as this topic tends to.

As a modeller rather than a gamer I mostly agree with your viewpoint, but calling someone childish because you disagree with an opinion is giving the impression of an antagonistic OP.
Which is going some for your debut post on Dakka.

Nice start, most people at least choose to say, "Hi!" before kicking up a storm.

snurl wrote:Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.

It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.

nkelsch wrote:Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.

This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.

infinite_array wrote:

snurl wrote:Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.

It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.

Tell me - what happens when that person with the 2D paper models wipes the floor with you?

Wargaming - in all of it's forms - is pushing little markers on the table and making the explode-y noises in our heads. Some people want to get more involved into the hobby than others, and some people will never paint a model in their life.

DreamWeaver wrote:

1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...

DreamWeaver wrote:Hi!

Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?

Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.

Vermillion wrote:I remember warhammer 40k 2nd ed coming with stand up card cutouts, 4th ed warhammer also. Also RT came with ork and marine counters for players to use at the battle of the farm scenario. Obviously these were "to get you started and playing" measures which I think should still be usable today for those starting an army up. You want to spend time designing a few dozen base sized tokens for x, y and z? Sure it helps people get playing faster, and they're either going to buy the model or not.

Ouze wrote:
A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.

B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the "GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.

DreamWeaver wrote:

nkelsch wrote:Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.

This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.

1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...

lord_blackfang wrote:I have to ask... if you're not going to use GW's awesome models, why torture yourself and stick to their horrid rules? If you just play for the rules, not the looks, find some good rules!

Shotgun wrote:Curious.

In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?

Rymafyr wrote:

Shotgun wrote:Curious.

In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?

"True LOS"?!? Shirley, you must be joking...

AustonT wrote: I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.

Garuss Acine wrote:wow, lots of hate for people looking to game when the budget is a bit tight. myself personally, I'd play him without bating an eye, an army is an army, I could care less where it comes from. be it the company that made the rules, another model supplier or even paper. its about a player base, and having spent time in an area that had next to zero for most of my entire gaming experience, and found myself less caring whats on the table, and who I am playing with. if I want to 'see' two armies going toe to toe, then gosh darnit I have something I call an imagination, and gee golly wiz, it's free to use when it comes to a game, a board game.

I buy models both online, and from my current FLGS(hell no doubt I've help him furnish his house having brought in easily over a $1,000 worth of business to his store in the last year alone) I also make sure to go out of my way and buy most if not all modeling supplies from his store. I do however see it as a very important step to encourage growth in the player base, and no doubt the store owner would see it the same way. having two players that buy solely from your store is fine a dandy, but having guy that buys a majority of his stuff off the internet or simply doesn't buy at all, bring in three to four more player who buy from your store, I see that as far from a negative. besides, if more people are playing the more likely they are to bring in more players, and more players equals more cash. not to mention if there is a larger player base, means more returned customers.

nkelsch wrote:using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

DreamWeaver wrote:Hi!

Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?

Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.

lord_blackfang wrote:

nkelsch wrote:using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

Luckily, it's not your place to decide who has the right to play where. Every manager can decide for himself who to let in based on his particular circumstances.

MightyGodzilla wrote:

I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?

SlaveToDorkness wrote:They do for "intro games" but typically not for full scale games. (YRMV)

DreamWeaver wrote:

Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.

njpc wrote:

Example 2: Gamer using scratch build ork battlewagons, drop pods, etc.
~ As long as it fits the part, no issues here at all. Sometimes scratch built are better anyway.

Example 3: the example above of the person without employment wanting to play and utilizing paper models. If this is in a GW I'd ask to play a small point game with the store armies. If this is in a FLGS, i'd visit my example above. I would try to make a way to have the person have the models, as they are making the effort. If they are asking for a huge scale game, i'd likely decline. A small point game i'd likely go for it as there is a smaller time dedication, and maybe they can get into the hobby with 2nd hand models, gifts, etc. I am not a person who likes to see people turned away from gaming as there are a lot of positive aspects to the hobby. Which can include mental sanity for someone who has been actively searching for a job and is bummed out they cannot find one.

nkelsch wrote:

AustonT wrote: I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.

I know more than one store owner who would not be amused by your paper stand-ins as it is bad for business and insulting to loiter and be a non-customer in a place of business.

MightyGodzilla wrote:If your a real life friend (person I'm cool with) I'll let you get away with just about anything.

Otherwise we can take my time machine back to 88-93 and play a game of BattleTech with the cardstock cutouts. Knowing a little bit about the guys situation makes me feel for him....a little. We wouldn't be playing in a FLGS, maybe my garage.

I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?

nkelsch wrote:

Those are pretty big checks your generalizations are writing... that all these exclusive internet shoppers bring in multiple new players? That 2d Paper models sells models and brings more gamers in? I am sure many store owners may disagree from their experiences... What if the people who buy in the store bring in dozens of people and the people with paper models or shop online bring no one? What happens then?

using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.

Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.

Garuss Acine wrote:

so you'd refuse to play someone with paper models because they don't support the store, well here is a question for you, what happens if a player buys all the models, buys glue, paints, brushes and the like, even assembles his stuff, but prefers to keep it all safe at home and instead uses 2d print outs of them to play? would you still refuse to play them? as clearly they are helping the gaming store, but want to ease the burden of putting their models at risk, or having to lug them around?

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

Platuan4th wrote:

KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.

Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.

And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.

Proxying is actually very common in MTG. People print out the card face and slip it into a sleeve with another unused card.

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

Ouze wrote:Or, if you prefer, analogy:

"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"

"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"

"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

Ouze wrote:
"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

Ouze wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.

vhwolf wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.

Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.

Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.

My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?

Platuan4th wrote:

vhwolf wrote:

Ouze wrote:

Vermillion wrote:

Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.

1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

2. To vhwolf: Not having a sitting area never stopped teenagers from clogging the aisles to hang out and not buy anything. We had to kick them out weekly for being a fire hazard.

Just proves the point that some people will abuse anything they can get away with. Also that you should support the places you frequent.

Reply by: malfred - click to view full reply 

131

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 02:26:28

Post by: malfred

Garuss Acine wrote:

well this is your choice, I just happen to disagree with it. just because they are not buying models, doesn't mean they can't support the FLGS in other ways, like buying sodas and snacks from the shop, or any other small item purchases.

I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 03:11:00

Post by: darkPrince010

malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...

Reply by: KilroyKiljoy - click to view full reply 

48147

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 03:16:48

Post by: KilroyKiljoy

darkPrince010 wrote:

malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...

No, but it should be adopted. Just like Orks, the Big ones get to lead.

Reply by: malfred - click to view full reply 

131

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 03:21:34

Post by: malfred

I just think it's a mistake to assume that only buying snacks
at the game store is supporting the store. The first part of my
sentence is serious, the getting in line in front of a paying
customer is not.

Reply by: Garuss Acine - click to view full reply 

10429

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 03:36:42

Post by: Garuss Acine

nkelsch wrote:

Yes. I would refuse to play this person because this person doesn't exist. Your scenario is a false premise and intellectually dishonest and not representative of the whole or even a minority. I don't think there is a single legitimate person who owns a full army and exclusively plays a 2D paper cut-out of that army.

Promoting paper play even if they supposedly own models in a closet promotes people not to purchase models but to counterfeit their own by making 2D paper cutouts instead of purchasing from the store. If they are worried about putting models at risk or lugging them around, they are in the wrong hobby or playing the wrong game... go play video games then.

I always enjoy seeing non-customers overestimate how much they support the store and the store owes them one fromt he sodas they drink. The owner is not running a 7-11 and your buying a soda and maybe giving him 25cent profit for the day is *NOT SUPPORT*.

I am glad there are tons of events out there with appearance requirements which purposfully exclude people. It makes the games overall better in quality and I enjoy playing with likeminded players who enjoy the same things I do. It is nice to know I am welcome everywhere becausemy models are official, painted and WYSIWYG.

firstly you'll note I didn't argue that this person did or did not exist, it was simple if this happened, against all the odds. from your terms I am guessing you are/were a store owner at some point, that or simply a disgruntled GW buyer like the lot of us . I am simply going to disagree with you, as clearly you have no desire to see anything other than your side in this matter. of course this all up to opinions and we all have a right to our own.

as i had said in my first post, I alone have brought in well over a grand worth of business to this FLGS, I know this because we are given 10% of our purchases as store credit(normally 5%, it goes up to ten after your first $1,000 spent). and seeing as I have roughly $100 in store credit I can safely say I have brought in enough to support the store. do I assume I am owed anything by the owner, hell no, for all I could care he could close his tables down and turn them into space for more stock, I'd just no longer have a reason to go there anymore(a 45min train ride one way).

events/tournies are a whole different can of worms, and I won't even touch that subject, in truth thats why I never go. I have no issues meeting the standards, I just have no desire to be told how to have my army by anyone other than myself. paired with the utter lack of events/tournies ever around or within distance to go, to the horror stories of my firends that have gone, I have lost any real interest in them, and am more happy to stick to the laid back, garage/LGS groups that simply play for the fun of it, with an understanding lot and owner of a store.

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 03:57:32

Post by: nkelsch

darkPrince010 wrote:

malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it

I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...

Yes... They should. Any adult with a high school education should be well aware with the almost nonexistent profit margin on these so called profitable snacks and that purchasing them in no way is fulfilling your part as a respectful customer spending all day taking up gaming space in the owners store.

If there was a real customer making a real purchase or asking real questions then yes... They should be moved to the front of the line before the guy buying a snickers bar in a shop that sells games and minis.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 04:59:09

Post by: darkPrince010

I'm not saying that snacks are profitable; I'm just saying that assigning greater status to a customer based on purchase size seems like a darn quick way to lose customers.

For those of you with any store or business, I dare you to allow people in line to pay first only based on the total of the stock they have in their basket, and to give less and less respect to people who buy less and less inventory...

I'd be willing to bet that not only would you alienate the people that would have bought minor purchases, you'll probably piss off people who would/do buy more and drive your business away.

You don't see grocery stores turning away the guys in the Express lanes or serving the person buying a month's groceries first simply because it'll net them more profit. This is because it's a poor, some would say gakky, business practice that would lose them customers faster then darn near any other practice I could think of that's within the boundaries of legality.

Reply by: Ouze - click to view full reply 

12313

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 05:54:14

Post by: Ouze

Platuan4th wrote:1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

I'll try and remember to omit the S. Tangent: After quitting working Waldenbooks years ago, I applied at a BN. A few weeks later I got a postcard from them saying they had hired someone else for the position. I remember thinking how tasteful of them it was to send that postcard. I've never had any other job I've ever applied for do such a thing, and although I obviously would have preferred the job, I remember really appreciating that at least I wouldn't have to wonder if they were ever going to call.

Reply by: Daston - click to view full reply 

41111

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 06:31:13

Post by: Daston

I'm guessing the sort of people who think its ok to play paper models without testing in mind are the sort of people who think its ok to make a Toyota look like a Ferrari and turn up to shows and events showing off their 'supercar'.

I personally wouldn't play against a 2d army I spent a fair amount of time and money making my army and expect my oppent to honour this with actual models and not take the piss by deploying an army of cereal boxes!

As said if you just want to play the game play vassle or dawn of war but then you probably prefer a pirate copy of that so cant play it onine

Reply by: Vermillion - click to view full reply 

20075

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 12:24:58

Post by: Vermillion

Ouze wrote:
"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"

"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"

"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"

My sides hurt from loling so much. Very good points, especially about support places you want kept around. Honestly no proper gaming store near me either and the thing should have been in quotes. I'm glad it's started some discussion and see some people think despite the extra expense, even in the current economic mess, supporting a GW store is the way to go.
Niow that is indeed a good thing, it keeps a local place for gamers to meet up, and a place where people can initially get into the hobby. They go in have a look around, a spark of interest is there they start buying. Akin to I assume the book store comparison where people sit flick through the books and get into them so much they buy them there and then to finish reading.
All well and good in an ideal world. But lets be honest, way things are these days if people can save a bit they will choose to. It's why comparison sites are popping up left right and centre. Putting this back into the original discussions context I'm agreeing in a store, yeah bit of a bad idea to bring out some scribbled on paper to represent your land raider or a can is a monolith. Friendly at home try a list out thing before buying I understand (surely though theres better ways? Perhaps a discussion for another thread).
Supporting somewhere local, in theory a good idea, even split your buys 50-50 in a pinch. If it's the cost of postage from a company or higher to even get to a local place (my circumstances past few months) then I'd stick with a discount and postage though and if theres no local gaming club see about starting one

On a side note though munchies at cinemas are overpriced

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 12:47:52

Post by: nkelsch

darkPrince010 wrote:I'm not saying that snacks are profitable; I'm just saying that assigning greater status to a customer based on purchase size seems like a darn quick way to lose customers.

For those of you with any store or business, I dare you to allow people in line to pay first only based on the total of the stock they have in their basket, and to give less and less respect to people who buy less and less inventory...

I'd be willing to bet that not only would you alienate the people that would have bought minor purchases, you'll probably piss off people who would/do buy more and drive your business away.

You don't see grocery stores turning away the guys in the Express lanes or serving the person buying a month's groceries first simply because it'll net them more profit. This is because it's a poor, some would say gakky, business practice that would lose them customers faster then darn near any other practice I could think of that's within the boundaries of legality.

Like a FLGS has a long line in reality?

You can't compare a grocery store to a FLGS because you are not hanging out in the grocery store for multiple hours at a time, using their stoves or sitting at a dining table for hours on end without paying anything. If they had that SERVICE in addition to being a retail store, damn straight the service would be a free premium on top of retail business and go to the people who 'buy more' first.

I think alienating NON-CUSTOMERS like your candy bar supporter is fine because they are non customers and are overestimating their worth as a customer based off of the paltry support they show via buying worthless items. It is like a manager at a restaurant asking you to leave a table because you sat there for 2 hours eating free bread and tap water while a paying customer who wants to order a steak dinner wishes to be seated. I see rude people all the time monopolize tables without buying food at bars our outside seating and basically the waiter then has a hole in his wait section where he is making no money or tip... all because someone thinks they are a paying customer sitting outside for 3 hours at a dining table sipping diet cokes. I have witnessed managers asking them to leave and they get all indignant, and I then tell the manager I support their decision, because I, the paying customer who wanted to eat at this restaurant had to wait for a table because this person was basically loitering and HARMING the business and taking money out of the waiters pocket.

Asking loiterers to leave your store is a common business practice... Either you misunderstand economics or are simply entitled that you believe you deserve a place to game and people to game against without having to pay for it.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 13:18:04

Post by: AustonT

It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.

Reply by: marv335 - click to view full reply 

1185

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 13:35:58

Post by: marv335

I don't get to play nearly as often as I like.
To be honest part of the experience for me is the look of my opponents army.
Why should I waste my valuable and scarce playing time playing against a paper army?
For me, there is nothing as satisfying (gaming wise) as a game between two fully painted armies on a well made board.

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 13:39:20

Post by: Platuan4th

Ouze wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.

I'll try and remember to omit the S. Tangent: After quitting working Waldenbooks years ago, I applied at a BN. A few weeks later I got a postcard from them saying they had hired someone else for the position. I remember thinking how tasteful of them it was to send that postcard. I've never had any other job I've ever applied for do such a thing, and although I obviously would have preferred the job, I remember really appreciating that at least I wouldn't have to wonder if they were ever going to call.

Yeah, other than the hours restrictions(only managers can get 40 hours, "full time" are generally restricted to 32 hours and keeping a tight rein on "overtime" for all employees) to stay in budget, the company is very good about its employees and potential hires. They're the only store I know of that tends to keep almost every seasonal worker(except those people that only wanted to work seasonally or that are REALLY bad at the job) after seasonal work is over. The cafe has a high turn over rate, though, due to stress(not all of which is tied to explaining to 20+ people a day that the cafe isn't a Starbucks, they just serve Starbucks coffee).

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 13:41:49

Post by: nkelsch

AustonT wrote:It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.

At least I don't feel like I am entitled to game for hours on a FLGS store owner's tables for hours with paper 2D cutouts of a product the store sells but I refuse to buy because I bought a candy bar once. I would rather be a socially aware and respectful snob than an entitled selfish mooch unaware or purposefully ignorant to how his actions impact others.

Reply by: reds8n - click to view full reply 

5394

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 14:03:05

Post by: reds8n

AustonT wrote:It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.

Can we not make comments like this please, they don't advance the conversation in any useful way and just put people's backs up. And rightfully so.

.. we'll see if this thread still has any mileage left in. But let's please leave the insults and digs out.

Obliged.

Reply by: Shotgun - click to view full reply 

3486

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 14:34:06

Post by: Shotgun

nkelsch wrote:
At least I don't feel like I am entitled to game for hours on a FLGS store owner's tables for hours with paper 2D cutouts of a product the store sells but I refuse to buy because I bought a candy bar once. I would rather be a socially aware and respectful snob than an entitled selfish mooch unaware or purposefully ignorant to how his actions impact others.

Even in my broke college days, I always managed to pick up a pot of paint, or a pack of magic cards or something during the long gaming days.

After I got hired there, I completely came to loathe the "free breathers" as I termed them. The worst was the one RPG group using the back room. When i started working the evening shift, I came to realize that the group was using the stock on the shelves as their free "library". Went in the back room and of 10 books on the table, 9 were store property. The guy before me (who was fired for being damn lazy) just let it happen. Needless to say, the one book with the broken spine they had to replace and they were banned.

We also solved the "buying candy" problem by buying a vending machine at a local auction and making a Costco run once a month.

Reply by: jbunny - click to view full reply 

24207

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 16:03:47

Post by: jbunny

Here is my thing. I got into 40K right after college. I had a job, and no bills and I still stayed with my parents. I had disposable income soI bought an army. Shortly after that I moved out, got married and had lots of bills.

I did not buy any more models for about 3 years. ANd when I did, I slowing bought a unit at a time.

This is an expensive hobby. Like it or not, but it takes money to play this game.

Reply by: Eilif - click to view full reply 

24779

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 16:23:26

Post by: Eilif

Oh, the shame...
I just realized that I (and you all as well) have been sucked into a near-flamewar by a greenhorn who still hasn't show us the..

DreamWeaver wrote:
... 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same...

...that were his (or her) entire justification for starting this thread. I'm going to tentatively call Shenanigans on this one.

I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.

Reply by: kronk - click to view full reply 

18698

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 16:27:49

Post by: kronk

Eilif wrote:
I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.

Well spotted, old chap. I dare say this Dreamweaver fellow has created quite the rucuss and bru-haha.

I demand satisfaction, post haste.

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 16:34:59

Post by: mullet_steve

Lol the newbee may have started a heated topic and done a runner but the topic of conversation has brought up some interesting ideas?

Reply by: nectarprime - click to view full reply 

43848

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 16:37:16

Post by: nectarprime

Eilif wrote:Oh, the shame...
I just realized that I (and you all as well) have been sucked into a near-flamewar by a greenhorn who still hasn't show us the..

DreamWeaver wrote:
... 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same...

...that were his (or her) entire justification for starting this thread. I'm going to tentatively call Shenanigans on this one.

I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 16:53:54

Post by: mullet_steve

Although I do understand why from an economic basis some stores do not like people utilising stand in models I utterly fail to see how anyone anywhere can question the validity of scratchbuilt models, whether they be plasticard or paperstock.... They had to get the materials from somewhere???

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 17:46:56

Post by: nkelsch

mullet_steve wrote:Although I do understand why from an economic basis some stores do not like people utilising stand in models I utterly fail to see how anyone anywhere can question the validity of scratchbuilt models, whether they be plasticard or paperstock.... They had to get the materials from somewhere???

I don't think people are lumping in using scratchbuilt but honest effort drop pods as part of an overall army of minis with 2D paper standinds for an entire army...

Any attempt to lump scratchbuilds with an entire 2D paper army is an attempt to cloud the issue. I think everyone realizes some scratchbuilds are ok and are usually held to the 'rule of cool'. A nice drop pod will get a lot more play over a dixie cup with a pen top glued to it.

Reply by: malfred - click to view full reply 

131

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 18:19:57

Post by: malfred

Scratchbuilt cardstock models are sweet, but a 2d paperstand
model would make me lol for a little bit and then eventually I
would not want to play against it.

Not that my opinion matters, but if you asked me to play
against it, I would probably only do so a few times unless
hilarity was guaranteed for every game.

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 18:28:37

Post by: mullet_steve

Yet somewhere on these pages and in general rumours I have heared and remember only half heartedly I recall people stating that in certain flags and tournaments that a model or army has to be at least 50% GW to be included. This would appear to be a related issue even if only vaguely.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 18:35:21

Post by: AustonT

The percentage GW thing is more fluid than you might think. No one goes out of thier way to confirm how much of the model is GW unless it's blatantly a 3rd party model or looks wonky. It's easier to buy a set of Heavy bolters and glue them on rather than scratch building then, if only to avoid the hassle.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 19:24:11

Post by: darkPrince010

@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?

Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.

As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 19:33:28

Post by: mullet_steve

darkPrince010 wrote:@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?

Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.

As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.

Taking that onboard would people agree to a system whereby you rent the gaming table? An imaginary store owner could write up a contract that states a purchase of $5.00 gives you a 50% discount voucher $10.00 or more gets you either one 100% discount voucher or 1 voucher per $10.00 spent and table rent could be as low as $2 each or something like that?

This would allow loyal customers to play for free whereby new and non custmoers that want to use the table will have to pay.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 19:50:07

Post by: darkPrince010

@mullet_steve: See, this seems like a great idea to me. It removes the ambiguity of "How much is enough to be a paying customer," while also keeping the moochers away. Your prices seem pretty fair to me, since this wouldn't drive away non-customers (People who'd be willing to pay $2 for the table but not $10 on models or something like that).

Heck, you could even set up a "Membership" for your store: It costs $X per month, and in exchange you get a Y% discount and use of the tables for free or at a discount. This would also keep the income stream to the store steady, instead of it being variable based on purchases:

Ie, 3 people over a 6 month period may only buy $50 worth of models, say netting them 3 free vouchers for a table and giving the store only $50 of imaginary profit.

Over the same amount of time, a $10/month membership would net the store $180 in profit not counting any models bought by the customers, and probably encourage the customers to come in and play more often (During which there's a better chance of them buying models and refreshments, further adding to the store profits).

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 19:55:45

Post by: mullet_steve

the idea or scheme is however entirely based on the store owner having the idea on his own or given to him/her/them..... I don't know how many FLAG's owners read dakka?

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 19:58:14

Post by: nkelsch

darkPrince010 wrote:@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?

Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.

As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.

But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.

If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...

Reply by: leemie0704 - click to view full reply 

46571

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 20:03:38

Post by: leemie0704

http://www.yourmovegames.com/battleground_index.html

this game uses 2d units and plays similar to fantasy. To be honest if GW came out with 2d cards like this where you could cross off members of the unit as they died I think more people would play fantasy. It would allow people to try the game before buying models and proxy units in an official way. This would result in more opponents which is good and starting the game wouldn't be as large of an investment. I only think this would work for fantasy smoothly though because of ranking up. I suppose you could use it for 40k too but it would be more difficult.

Reply by: Eilif - click to view full reply 

24779

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 20:24:02

Post by: Eilif

nkelsch wrote: You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

This seems a bit extreme, especially when 15-18% is considered the standard tip. I prefer to tip 18-25 depending on the service, but 20% is not generally the cutoff for "human scum" in the USA.

Miss Manners states:

Knowing this, polite people leave at least the conventional tip (a 15 percent minimum before tax is added) regardless of the quality of the service. (If it is bad, they should complain, as in other cases when people do not perform adequately what they are hired to do.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31070-2004Nov6.html

As to the particular tangent of this topc regarding what is supporting your local store, I agree with you that it should be common sense regarding what is or isn't support. As I buy almost exclusively out of print, or indie minaitures and games, my support for my FLGS (where I game once every 2 weeks) is less than it should be, but I do make an effort to buy things there and even do the occasional special order. Unfortunately, there will always be those who want tables for nothing. For those people, there is only the pressure of their peers to bring them in line or the boot of the FLGS owner to drive them out.

Reply by: dripwelquest - click to view full reply 

44909

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 20:47:20

Post by: dripwelquest

nkelsch wrote:

But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.

If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

Reply by: augustus5 - click to view full reply 

2515

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 20:50:05

Post by: augustus5

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Book stores are going out of business because they have a dying business model. They did fine with allowing people to sit and read in their stores, even setting up little coffee shops inside some of the stores. They probably gained customers by having such an inviting atmosphere. With the rise of the electronic book medium, paper books are becoming a thing of the past. Amazon realized this over a decade ago and altered their business model.

I love my FLGS because they have the same type of atmosphere there. It is owned and staffed by people who love gaming/comic books, and have developed an extremely loyal customer base by understanding that if they provide tables and space for gamers to hang out and game, then those gamers will make purchases at that store. They don't need to come up with some kind of system to ensure that every customer pay for a table, or purchase more than a snack at every visit. If they did those sorts of things, they likely would not have the customer base that they do, and may have went the way of the buffalo, just like so many other shops I've seen come and go.

I also fail to see what this has to do with the debate over using papar models. I wouldn't play somebody using 2d models, because 2d models don't allow for true line of sight. Would I play against 3d paper models? Yeah, but I wouldn't want to all of the time.

Reply by: nectarprime - click to view full reply 

43848

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:05:53

Post by: nectarprime

dripwelquest wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.

Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.

Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.

If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.

20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:08:55

Post by: darkPrince010

nkelsch wrote:If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.

That really wasn't necessary... Meanie!

I understand that you dislike people feeling entitled to stuff without paying, and I agree: Store resources should only be for paying customers.

However...

You still haven't stated what you think would be a fair price or sum total of stuff bought to be a "valuable and/or paying customer." Therin lies the problem: If I go to FLGS A, and am allowed to use their tables for several hours in exchange for buying a candy bar or a pack of MtG, and then go to FLGS B and am shunned/kicked out for doing the same, how was I (assuming I've never gone to the more expensive store before) suppossed to know the minimal purchase. Moreover, what incentive would I have to go to the more expensive store and risk being treated like a pariah again if I incorrectly guess the minimal purchase amount?

If problems like this bug you so much, then if you are a store owner, be sure to make you minimum purchase/maximum time rules clear to everyone coming in. Unlcear, vague, or implied social rules are just that: Social. Depending on your background, you could have a 180 degree different set of social rules and expectations than someone else, but you can't jump down their throats for not knowing your personal set of ideals.

I can guarantee you that regardless of what I wanted to purchase or how much I'd liked the store, if I was randomly approached and told to leave because of insufficient purchases, with no forewarning, that store would never see me darken their threshold again, and I'd actively reccomend my friends against it. If you gave me fair warning as I came in, or had posted rules along the same lines, I'd know my error and probably visit again, purchasing as per the rules. If you simply gave me the stink-eye everytime I wasn't carrying merchandise in my hands to the checkout line, I'd probably find every way I could to warn my acquaintances against shopping there.

Slight anecdote:
We have a LGS that has a bit of an issue with this, assuming everyone who isn't carrying merchandise or participating in a MtG tournament (They also have Warhammer, Malifaux, WM/H, etc.) is probably going to steal stuff, and they come over and are very rude to you. As a result, my entire local club of 30+ hardcore gamers have dropped the store and used the only other store in the area instead, actively reccomending any gamers we encounter against this store (We're from a pair of nearby small towns, so we represent probably 1/4 or so of the entire gaming population for the nearest 60 miles). These same gamers would have bought thousands of dollars of merchandise, but thanks to a store owner's poor behavior towards potential customers, the only people they have in the store anymore are a half-dozen elementary school kids playing MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh once a week...
/End Anecdote

EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:17:21

Post by: nkelsch

nectarprime wrote:

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.

20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.

You do know in many states that waiters work for only Tips and have no wages... and usually 10% of the total of the checks have to be paid out of the waiters pocket to the manager, the bartender and busboy... Poor tips can not only deny someone a living wage but often end up for them to pay out of pocket for them serving you.

If you can't afford 20%, you shouldn't be going out to eat. Giving a tip for poor service or quality is one thing, but have the balls to make a remark to the manager opposed to simply leaving a low tip and sneaking out before you make eye contact with your waiter. Maybe you don't have many friends who know about the service industry or are just somewhat cheap individuals... If I leave 15%, the manager has a right to know why you were dissatisfied. Anything less than 15% denies a living wage for many people like the busboy and since I am not big on slavery I would rather tip correctly and vocalize my complaints opposed to be stingy on a tip without saying a word.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/HeresATip20PercentIsTheNew15Percent.aspx

I would love for Tips to be actual tips, but in the US they are not. They are living wage for people and are designed to be paid regardless of service quality. Some states have changed that guaranteeing all employees minimum wage... my region is not one of those states... so it is 20% or you are harming innocent people.

EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.

Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. If you believe a TIP is for quality service, you would be wrong in the US. In Europe it is... in the US it is not. If you can't understand how the US wait staff financials work in your region and your minimum wage laws, you shouldn't be eating out. You should be smart enough to know how tipping actually works and who it impacts... bad service is no excuse for denying someone a living wage or harming other parties who provide a service you do not see like busboys.

If you know how US tipping works in relation to wages and still choose to stiff people, that is pretty horrible... If it is out of ignorance, then go google it and figure out your local wait staff minimum wage laws.

This is the same type of inconsiderate behavior which has people thinking buying a snickers bar supports the store the same way they think Tips are 'rewards for good service' when they simply are not that way in the US.

Reply by: nectarprime - click to view full reply 

43848

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:31:49

Post by: nectarprime

nkelsch wrote:
words

You seem to have an attitude problem. You should learn how to have a discussion with people as opposed to being accusatory and coming off as rude, which is what you are currently doing.

I was going to type a longer response but I won't bother. Welcome to my ignore list sir!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.

Uh....

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:38:57

Post by: darkPrince010

I give a "living wage" to people who earn it. I wouldn't pay a painter the full amount if they painted only one side of my house and then slept the rest of the day away. Likewise, if my waiter gets me my drinks and then disappears for the next 45 minutes (excluding extenuating circumstances like a huge crowd or something), they have not done their job in my eyes and do not deserve a tip.

Besides, in my area (Washington State) wait staff are required to be paid minimum wage, and tips are extra on top of that. I'm sorry that's not the case in your area, and I agree it's not right, but in my area it's perfectly acceptable to use a tip as a carrot for good waiter behavior.

This is getting ridiculously OT though. Someone, anyone, please comment on the paper vs. plastic debate!

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:40:41

Post by: nkelsch

nectarprime wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.

Uh....

Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept the wage laws for wait staff int he US doesn't make it not true. There is a reason New York City is forcing 18% mandatory gratuity on all checks in a large number of restaurants now because of the international crowd who doesn't understand the difference between European gratuity and US minimum wage laws. I can excuse Europeans who misunderstand, but Americans should have the capacity to fully understand how wages work in their state.

And it is not the 1970s... 15% is now considered minimal tip for poor service and 20% is average service.

This is why I am never surprised when people can't understand how they are not supporting their FLGS... these people can't even handle tipping at restaurants let alone being a respectful customer at their FLGS.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:41:20

Post by: darkPrince010

nkelsch wrote:Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.

"That's right, forty lashes and a 5% tip for spilling my drink on my lap and ignoring me for half an hour!"

EDIT:

nkelsch wrote:I can excuse Europeans who misunderstand, but Americans should have the capacity to fully understand how wages work in their state.

"Waiters, on average, fail to report at least 40% of their tips according to the IRS." -From a 2002 IRS bulletin.

Last I understood, the way wages work, you have to pay taxes on them...

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 21:51:27

Post by: AustonT

You linked an article wherein the only logic for tipping 20% was lazy math, bravo.
Tips are gratuity, to use the proper term. And are a gift based on how I feel my server has done. The fact that in most states tipped employees are paid a specific minimum wage well below the federal minimum wage doesn't sway me a bit. gakky service does not deserve my graciousness, my wife and I tip 15% for average service, 10 for sub par service, 20 for good service and as much as we want to especially engaging servers who really make our night. One particular waitress that treated my wife with extreme disrespect didn't receive her 5% tip entirely in pennies only because my wife wouldn't let me have her coin rolls. Her manager also earned a bent ear. This entire subject of gratuity is off the original topic but because of your vitriol and general disagreeable nature it's worth pointing out that you are patently incorrect. Tipping is not mandatory. It's not about being cheap, it's about an expectation of service.

It is at least encouraging that your world is surrounded on all sides by reality, and your skewed opinion extends beyond wargaming and it's establishments.

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 22:05:28

Post by: mullet_steve

nkelsch wrote:

nectarprime wrote:

Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.

I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.

20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.

You do know in many states that waiters work for only Tips and have no wages... and usually 10% of the total of the checks have to be paid out of the waiters pocket to the manager, the bartender and busboy... Poor tips can not only deny someone a living wage but often end up for them to pay out of pocket for them serving you.

If you can't afford 20%, you shouldn't be going out to eat. Giving a tip for poor service or quality is one thing, but have the balls to make a remark to the manager opposed to simply leaving a low tip and sneaking out before you make eye contact with your waiter. Maybe you don't have many friends who know about the service industry or are just somewhat cheap individuals... If I leave 15%, the manager has a right to know why you were dissatisfied. Anything less than 15% denies a living wage for many people like the busboy and since I am not big on slavery I would rather tip correctly and vocalize my complaints opposed to be stingy on a tip without saying a word.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/HeresATip20PercentIsTheNew15Percent.aspx

I would love for Tips to be actual tips, but in the US they are not. They are living wage for people and are designed to be paid regardless of service quality. Some states have changed that guaranteeing all employees minimum wage... my region is not one of those states... so it is 20% or you are harming innocent people.

EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.

Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. If you believe a TIP is for quality service, you would be wrong in the US. In Europe it is... in the US it is not. If you can't understand how the US wait staff financials work in your region and your minimum wage laws, you shouldn't be eating out. You should be smart enough to know how tipping actually works and who it impacts... bad service is no excuse for denying someone a living wage or harming other parties who provide a service you do not see like busboys.

If you know how US tipping works in relation to wages and still choose to stiff people, that is pretty horrible... If it is out of ignorance, then go google it and figure out your local wait staff minimum wage laws.

This is the same type of inconsiderate behavior which has people thinking buying a snickers bar supports the store the same way they think Tips are 'rewards for good service' when they simply are not that way in the US.

this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So Paper it's so great or rubbish whichever train of thought will get this back on topic

ON TOPIC!!!!!

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 22:09:38

Post by: AustonT

On 2d models: still useful for playtesting. I didn't even know what vassal was until last week, and now I have to find where it's hiding. For TLOS you turn the model so it's facing the model you are measuring from. If it's a vehicle it should be a 3d model anyways, there's no wiggle room for armor facing, cover, etc.

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 22:21:11

Post by: Platuan4th

mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.

REALLY?!

So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?

You honestly think that will change things?

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 22:24:27

Post by: darkPrince010

Lol. That brings to mind a 2D rhino: "What do you mean all you can see is a line?"

I personally have a ~3K point Tyranid army made from OneMonk's Chimera Brood (Before he started charging for pdfs again). They work great, and although I rarely use them anymore, I'm glad I used them instead of plastic models because otherwise I would have learned the hard way that Venom Cannon Carnifexes, loads of Tyranid Warriors, Pyrovores in a drop pod, and a Mawloc does not make for an effective army...

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 22:49:04

Post by: mullet_steve

Platuan4th wrote:

mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.

REALLY?!

So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?

You honestly think that will change things?

Yes. If no one can afford to live working as a waitress they won't be waitresses and the resturaunts will be forced to hire new staff at better wages. Go to resturants that pay decent wages. Ask before you eat what the staff get paid?

So yes I think that refusing to spend your money at resturants that underpay their staff would eventualy change things

Reply by: Lt. Coldfire - click to view full reply 

26697

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:01:24

Post by: Lt. Coldfire

mullet_steve wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:

mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.

REALLY?!

So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?

You honestly think that will change things?

Yes. If no one can afford to live working as a waitress they won't be waitresses and the resturaunts will be forced to hire new staff at better wages. Go to resturants that pay decent wages. Ask before you eat what the staff get paid?

So yes I think that refusing to spend your money at resturants that underpay their staff would eventualy change things

But then the restaurants will have to raise their menu prices which will turn people away. Sounds like a suicide mission.
I worked at Applebee's for 3 years. The waiters/waitresses get paid a little over a dollar an hour. TIP YOUR SERVER. You can choose to go to a restaurant that doesn't have servers, but if you are being waited on, then you should be tipping.

What does this have to do about paper vs plastic, anyways?

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:06:49

Post by: AustonT

Umm Im just going to throw this at you Coldfire you take it how you want. Are you sure? CA requires all employees be paid the state minimum wage and that all gratuity is the sole property of the employee and cannot be used directly or indirectly as credit towards the mandated cash wage.

Reply by: Lt. Coldfire - click to view full reply 

26697

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:10:38

Post by: Lt. Coldfire

Well, this was in South Carolina, and apparently minimum wage doesn't apply to waiters around there because I asked about it on several occassions. I'm sure I can dig up some past wage statements where I was getting paid $2 an hour. I'm not just sure, I'm 100% positive. I lived it.

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:12:14

Post by: Platuan4th

Min wage doesn't apply to wait staff in many(if not all) states, as they supplement their wages with tips.

So it's ignorant to blame the business when it's the law that determines it.

Reply by: Lt. Coldfire - click to view full reply 

26697

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:15:33

Post by: Lt. Coldfire

What Platuan4th said.
It was actually quite comical when I got a dollar raise all the way up to $3/hr.

Reply by: ChainswordHeretic - click to view full reply 

11188

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:20:54

Post by: ChainswordHeretic

It's the same in Wisconsin. Wait staff does not have to be paid minimum wage. When I was a manager are staff was paid $2.25 per hour.

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:30:56

Post by: nkelsch

Lt. Coldfire wrote:Well, this was in South Carolina, and apparently minimum wage doesn't apply to waiters around there because I asked about it on several occassions. I'm sure I can dig up some past wage statements where I was getting paid $2 an hour. I'm not just sure, I'm 100% positive. I lived it.

California is one of the few states with full minimum wage for servers... It very much is a local and state issue which is why it is on my 'list' of things when I contact my local elected officials every election cycle. I would have no issue with Cali people having different stances on tipping, especially if they are informed positions.

And it isn't the restaurant's fault necessarily since it is part of the tax law. The restaurants don't have a choice in the matter as the laws of the state require the wage to be lower with the expectation of the tips providing the rest. They actually get taxed on the tips whether they make them or not. It is not terribly uncommon for some people on a slow night to actually have to pay the restaurant or the government out of their own pocket to cover taxes for tipwages they didn't even earn and go home with no paycheck for the night.

Now personally, I don't agree with the practice and I personally would welcome higher food prices... but I also understand economically, many businesses could be harmed and people out of jobs with a drastic change in the laws. So while I can push for change, in the meanwhile in order to not harm the innocent, If I go out to eat, I have to tip. Refusing to tip all together is wrong... Refusing to eat at restaurants is the correct way to show disapproval... Continuing to eat out, getting your service and cutting back nothing and then refusing to tip is terrible! It is like ending animal cruelty by killing all the pets.. at least no animals will be abused anymore! I support the waiters by paint the high tips in my area because how wages work and also get involved in my local discussion on how such law changes will help/hurt wait staff and businesses.

Right now, the system relies on social conscience and etiquette, and *MOST* people follow it so it works. This is the same situation with FLGS... FLGS work because of a social conscience and etiquette most people intrinsically have when they support the local store. And just like restaurant tipping, there is a percentage of the population who through ignorance or just not caring, break these social norms and harm the establishments they frequent. Most people I think would rather have unfunded play at FLGS with the expectation that we are adults and support the store the best we can. Personally, I feel actions like 100% internet shopping, paper/cokecan proxies, counterfeiting minis and illegally downloading publications are all actions that harm and disrespect the FLGS... If most people respect and support the store, a mandatory gaming fee or rigid rules are unnecessary, the same way changing minimum wage is unnecessary if people tip correctly.

I don't think using an entire 2D paper proxy army is respectful of a store owner and his free gaming space he provides. I think it is fine for playtesting or limited use, usually done at home or in club night, but when you game in a store you are not only using up his space and rent but also you are promoting sales by showing the hobby at its best. I have been told that sales drastically increase on days where events require painted models as parents get a better feeling when they see a hobby that will drive lil JR to sit down and do something worthwhile like paint opposed to 300$ for instant gratification video game bard game. I think there is a valid reason that painted events take weekend primetime and unpainted general play is often weeknights with low street traffic. I only use painted models out of respect for the store owners and more than once I have been thanked for it. I also feel these paper models in no way deserve any part of 'equal gaming rights' and should totally be disallowed from well-run events and all tourneys. I do not buy the whole 'hardcore gamer' premise of the OP.

If your FLGS allows 2Dpaper model standinds, good for you... I feel it is disrespectful because the owner makes money off selling models, not watching you play with 2D paper armies and snickers bars. This is before the considering the general attitude of gamers which is probably going to find lots of hobbiests who would not be happy with being forced to play against it.

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/14 23:33:06

Post by: AustonT

I only know about CA because a friend moved from AZ to there. AZs tip rate is like 3.25 I think, she was pleasantly surprised because she asked the parent company to transfer her, so she didn't even have to apply for a new job.

Reply by: Lt. Coldfire - click to view full reply 

26697

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 00:20:27

Post by: Lt. Coldfire

@nkelsch You wrote too much than I care to read on this subject, but I did get to the second paragraph--I do recall some servers actually owing money for the night. I was going to mention it initially but I wasn't sure anyone would believe it.

Reply by: Ouze - click to view full reply 

12313

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 01:35:29

Post by: Ouze

If we wish to discuss tipping etiquette, perhaps a new thread could be started.

To the OP, lets see these paper proxies. I'm not sue how this discussion can continue intelligently until that happens. Rule of Cool and all.

Reply by: malfred - click to view full reply 

131

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 02:14:21

Post by: malfred

leemie0704 wrote:http://www.yourmovegames.com/battleground_index.html

this game uses 2d units and plays similar to fantasy. To be honest if GW came out with 2d cards like this where you could cross off members of the unit as they died I think more people would play fantasy. It would allow people to try the game before buying models and proxy units in an official way. This would result in more opponents which is good and starting the game wouldn't be as large of an investment. I only think this would work for fantasy smoothly though because of ranking up. I suppose you could use it for 40k too but it would be more difficult.

How is that game anyway? You can pm me with the answer if you don'
t want to derail the conversation...

Reply by: Platuan4th - click to view full reply 

320

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 02:15:29

Post by: Platuan4th

malfred wrote: if you don'
t want to derail the conversation...

Bit late for that, don't you think?

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 02:43:20

Post by: darkPrince010

I'll post my paper Nids as an example for 2D (ish) models, just as soon as I can figure out how to get data from an SD card onto a computer without an SD card slot... :/

Reply by: Ouze - click to view full reply 

12313

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 03:29:47

Post by: Ouze

darkPrince010 wrote:I'll post my paper Nids as an example for 2D (ish) models, just as soon as I can figure out how to get data from an SD card onto a computer without an SD card slot... :/

I use one of these.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 04:43:04

Post by: darkPrince010

I need to get me one of those. For the time being however, I borrowed my fiance's camera which doesn't have a non-standard USB port and added the pics:



Closeup of my mawloc, hive tyrant, and a couple warriors



Overview of the swarm. It's a comfortable 2K points, and can be stretched to 3K in a pinch. (Sorry for gakky flash)



Closeup of the zoanthropes and venomthropes (foreground) and carnifexes (background, stupidly armed with venom cannons... )
More pics of the army are in my gallery.


Overall, I'm proud of my models. They don't hold a candle to fully painted plastics, but they look (imo, biased of course) far better than flat greys/black primer armies. While I'd fully understand someone with a painted army not wanting to play this, I definitely raise my eyebrows at the occasional "They look like crap" coming from one or two guys at my FLGS, who incidentally only have half-painted and/or unpainted "This flamer is really a lascannon" proxy armies...

I strongly recommend something like this for people who (like me up until very recently when I got an incredible deal on a full Tau army) are unable to afford the official models. While you won't enter any official tourneys with them, and you may receive some flak for them from the diehards, most of the people I've played with are happy that I have an army that is both painted (Or at least not monochromatic) and WYSIWYG, and I've had several fun games with them (Losing all but one of them iirc ) ).

I fully agree that something like this may not be incredibly appealing to passer-bys as compared to a fully painted official plastics army, but I'd bet that a colorful army, even if made out of paper, would attract more attention than unpainted or single-primer plastic armies would if played in the front window. After they enter the store, the store owner could easily direct them to the model ranges (Which, thanks to the beautifully painted pictures on the boxes, would be more enticing than plain paper models).

Reply by: Ouze - click to view full reply 

12313

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 06:17:39

Post by: Ouze

Those models are much nicer looking then I had expected. I'd have no problem playing against them.

However, were I a store owner, I'd probably let you use them while you build up a "real" army out of product, preferably bought from me, or for testing out a new army first to try something out. Again, I would retain an exception for Drop Pods, which suck.

Reply by: Vermillion - click to view full reply 

20075

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 11:07:39

Post by: Vermillion

Ouze wrote:Those models are much nicer looking then I had expected. I'd have no problem playing against them.

However, were I a store owner, I'd probably let you use them while you build up a "real" army out of product, preferably bought from me, or for testing out a new army first to try something out. Again, I would retain an exception for Drop Pods, which suck.

Agreed, they look nice. Scratch built drop pod from foam looking like something tyranids would use, again, no problem with them.

Reply by: mullet_steve - click to view full reply 

28327

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 11:19:20

Post by: mullet_steve

whilst I appreciate the effort darkprince010 has gone to with his card/paper army I would agree that for use in a gaming store I would only allow it whilst a prpoer army was being built. If there is no army with physical models (scratch built or standard) I would have to stop them being used I'm afraid.

I mean any progress even if it's one model a month or something..

Reply by: mrwhoop - click to view full reply 

23066

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 12:09:01

Post by: mrwhoop

Ah geez, my initial reaction was "Burn it with fire!" But I'm not sure whether it was because they're paper or they're tyranids...

Reply by: njpc - click to view full reply 

17659

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 12:30:44

Post by: njpc

The paper card army above shows effort. However, I'd still agree with all assessments above. It would be fair to use it in a shop while you work to build your plastic/metal army. That way you can learn the ropes and stay involved.

For tournment / competitive play you would likely not be allowed to enter. I would hope if people pursued card armies, they would also pursue the effort it appears you have taken with yours. However, I stand doubtful that would happen. Still i'd happily play against that in a pick up game.

Reply by: spaceelf - click to view full reply 

38067

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 12:32:01

Post by: spaceelf

I'm lovin those paper nids. They are so much better than the models that are assembled and painted by GWs target market. I would encourage newbs to use paper. They could then buy a real model or two. If they take to hobbying and painting then they could buy a real army. If not, stick with paper.

Reply by: nectarprime - click to view full reply 

43848

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 13:35:19

Post by: nectarprime

Wow, I am shocked at how good those Tyranids look!

Still waiting on OP to post his titans :/

Reply by: nkelsch - click to view full reply 

7942

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 14:02:17

Post by: nkelsch

Not a fan of those paper models... Would be ok for club night but not appropriate for most general play. I would not want to play against them.

And while I would not want to play against proxy greys either... at least the store owner got his pound of flesh from those models... so it is only disrespect opponents, not the venue.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 15:35:05

Post by: darkPrince010

I did make my army so I'd be able to play while accumulating a real army, and while I still like building and using non-GW models, I at least have one full all-GW-models army to use in case of someone who refuses to play against any unpure models...

Reply by: Lt. Coldfire - click to view full reply 

26697

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 15:36:32

Post by: Lt. Coldfire

Well those paper nids look a lot better than I could've imagined, but I still wouldn't fancy playing them. They would, however, make a hilarious lender army.
"No army, bro? No worries, here's some paper bugs."

Reply by: Boss GreenNutz - click to view full reply 

6589

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 15:42:08

Post by: Boss GreenNutz

They look good but I wonder. Does Best Buy or whoever you bought the printer from let you game there or does your LGS charge you to game since you are not helping him stay in business by buying product from him?

Reply by: Lt. Coldfire - click to view full reply 

26697

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 15:43:46

Post by: Lt. Coldfire

Gaming in Best Buy would truly be epic.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/15 15:52:44

Post by: darkPrince010

I have only ever used them in my local gaming club (For which I pay a monthly fee for tables).

Also, slight side note, never buy an Epson printer: This army went through probably 4 sets of ink cartridges by the end, along with a great deal of frustration and gnashing of teeth due to superglued-together fingers. Epson printers won't print anything if they run out of a single color, not even B/W, and when you replace a cartridge, it "charges" all the cartridges, draining the rest further. This whole army cost me ~$5 for the paper, ~$10 for the glue, and ~$60 for the damn ink cartridges. HP doesn't pull these shenanigans, and better yet, neither does my new laser printer

/End Rant

Our FLGS actually has only a single table, which as far as I've ever seen only has a demo/display table. I've never seen anyone actually play on the table (Especially since iirc it's 3 or 4 foot square), and I rarely buy GW products since he way overprices them (The other model supplies and toy/game section does see my occasional dollar however).

Reply by: Ouze - click to view full reply 

12313

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 03:47:20

Post by: Ouze

darkPrince010 wrote:I have only ever used them in my local gaming club (For which I pay a monthly fee for tables).

If I'm paying a monthly fee, I expect to be able to play with soda caps and pennies so far as the store owner goes. So we're back down to your opponents, who seem good with it.

Reply by: CageUF - click to view full reply 

37943

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 03:56:00

Post by: CageUF

Ouze wrote:

DreamWeaver wrote:

1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...

Well, this seems less like an attempt at having a conversation and more an attempt at starting a flamewar, but I guess I enjoy either one, so why not.

There are 2 sets of guidelines here, with a single exception.

A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.

B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the "GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.

At the end of the day I almost never get to play against actual people, and so I while I wouldn't refuse a game against Cardboard Cutout guy, per se, but he'd certainly be my last choice of opponent should I be so blessed as to have a choice of adversaries.

Single Exception: Drop Pods. These models suck, are expensive, and do nearly nothing. No matter who you are, I'm not complaining about plastic cup drop pods. I built and painted a single drop pod and hated it the whole time. Your peanut butter jar drop pod is OK with me, but at least paint it or something and don't break my immersion.

+1

On a side note, this is one of the reasons I have 7 armies... New to the game? Don't know exactly what you want to play? Here... try a few out, you can borrow an army.

My FLGS keeps 3 armies of ~1500pts chilling at the store for the same reason. It boils down to 40k players have enough to keep track of in a normal game, let alone walking a new player through the rounds with his paper army.

Reply by: swollendeathray - click to view full reply 

48981

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 13:28:13

Post by: swollendeathray

darkPrince010 I just wanted to say that your papercraft army looks amazing. Did you design the units yourself or did you find a template online?

Reply by: Eilif - click to view full reply 

24779

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 14:11:19

Post by: Eilif

swollendeathray wrote:darkPrince010 I just wanted to say that your papercraft army looks amazing. Did you design the units yourself or did you find a template online?

I'm pretty sure they are the "One Monk Miniatures" Chimera Brood.
http://onemonk.com/

He's been redoing the website, so not all have been updated and rereleased , but the Basic Chimerra Brood figs are still for sale ($4 PDF) and a few of the other variants are in the free "Forum Horde" sections.

Reply by: swollendeathray - click to view full reply 

48981

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 15:10:01

Post by: swollendeathray

Thanks for the link. I think I'm going have to give this a shot.

Reply by: warspawned - click to view full reply 

31079

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 15:15:46

Post by: warspawned

I'm kind of liking the whole paper terrain/model aesthetic at the moment - it'll never be as good as proper miniatures, but if you're on a budget (a very small one) it's a way to go about getting proxies that are better looking than simple paper cut outs with 'gribbly' written on and better than using substitutes (guard for nids etc). It's like playing in cartoon-world - which I think (if done well enough) has its own charm. I'd have nothing against someone who wanted to use an army like that above - I just can't take my gaming seriously enough to be bothered by it *shrugs*

Reply by: AustonT - click to view full reply 

29110

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 15:41:37

Post by: AustonT

Played 40k in the desert for a year with paper cutouts of shapes from MS paint of approximately the right size. It only make you want your models more.

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 18:55:54

Post by: darkPrince010

Wow. I hadn't been on the onemonk site in a while, and he's really hamstrung his available stuff. Anyhow, for anyone who's interested, I used this guy for my carnifexes and hive tyrant:
http://www.onemonk.com/onemonkAssets/hoardFiles/hoard16.zip
iirc, these guys for the raveners and thrope tails (I only used the lower torso of the bigger unit)
http://www.onemonk.com/onemonkAssets/hoardFiles/hoard8.zip
(For people wary of directly downloading the .zip, they can be found under the site's "Forum Hoards")
and these guys for genestealers:
http://www.onemonk.com/chimera-brood

He also had bug-winged flying units (Didn't love gargoyles enough to jump through the hoops to assemble those models), the warriors, and a set of alternative weapons in the different color schemes. I personally like the dark blue/black color, but they didn't have the carnifex in anything but lime green/purple, so ah well

For anyone who's not sold on the units but is interested in terrain, I can't reccomend World Works Games (http://www.worldworksgames.com/store/) enough. I own very little of their stuff, mainly because I know I don't have the time to assemble them and I no longer have a color printer, but I plan on buying their clip-together city sets (Here's an example of the sewers: http://www.worldworksgames.com/store/index.php?view=product&product=164) and make some amazing multi-level wargame scenarios one day...

EDIT: All of the major paper model/terrain makers I've seen include files to allow anyone lucky enough to own a robo-cutter to use that with their sets, and if you have the remotest chance of fanagling one of those from someone, DO IT! I can't emphasize enough how much time, effort, and pain it'll save you. The other tip I strongly reccomend is going over all the white edges with a black sharpie. It takes forever, but really helps the models not look like anywhere near as crappy.

Reply by: Solorg - click to view full reply 

9202

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/16 19:49:14

Post by: Solorg

Oragami 40K!

When I first started playing WHF I made some "Skeletons" out of cardboard. They were just plain old tiles with the word "Skeleton" written on them. It seemed like an OK idea, because back in the day, lots of games used counters for models - including a D&D Mass Battles game (I forget the actual name) which had like a billion punch-out little chits that represented monsters for the mass battle.

Heck, Wizards of the Coast has returned to this way of thinking with its recent "Monster Vault" products and discontinuation of D&D Minis.

That said, my 20mm base-sized chits with "Skeleton" written on them, if I may say so, looked Mighty Lame compared to my opponents' nicely painted 3D models of charging cavalry, furious dragons, and rampaging warriors.

My opponents let me play because I was young and poor. And generously, I was given real models from each person in the group when Xmas came around.

40K is, more than anything, a visual game as many wargaming simulations are. This is in contrast to RPGs which are mostly about imagination and where the best action happens in your head.

So can you play with paper? Sure you can. But it is like watching Avatar on a 20-inch black-and-white television.

That's how I see it. Would I play against paper? Out of respect to those who humored me all those years ago, I believe I would. Maybe I'd even be generous enough to buy a box of models for that friend for his next birthday or holiday, too.

Reply by: Eilif - click to view full reply 

24779

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/09/17 01:03:48

Post by: Eilif

As an asside, I recieved notice of this in my email today.




More paper mech designs for "Mech Attack" a really fun fast-playing mech game with a nice unit building mechanic for mechs vehicles and infnatry.
http://www.wargamevault.com/product_info.php?cPath=5431&products_id=79303
I love the game and play it with rebased Mechwarrior minis, but the models are nice as 2.5d figs go.

Reply by: frozen4life - click to view full reply 

46309

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/11/04 15:26:30

Post by: frozen4life

wow i hven't really thought about this. well i'm not a gamer. but just a builder.

but wouldn't people not like to play people with paperhammer because of the money and effort they put it?
it's like "i had to save up money to get a rhino, but you simply printed one out..."

or maybe imagine playing pokemon cards or yugioh cards.
you went through all that trouble to get a strong card. money time effort
and some dude just prints one out. it kinda doesn't seem fair.

i'm just imagining how i would feel. i don't play pokemon or yugioh LOLOLOL

but it's still kinda messed up that warhammer is for people with money.

well it's just my opinion. i built a drop pod out of paper and it was really fun. i don't know why people think it's useless. but i wouldn't know i don't play the game

Reply by: darkPrince010 - click to view full reply 

46376

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/11/04 18:05:31

Post by: darkPrince010

I agree, and if Warhammer was as affordable as something like Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, or MtG, I'd be much more understanding when someone got mad at someone else for bringing a meh-quality papercraft army.

Problem is, we're all acutely aware that Warhammer of either flavor isn't cheap, and I feel like it's discriminating against people with less income. I had people at my FLGS bug the gak out of me for my proxy stuff (Including the paper nids, which imo are acceptable-quality papercraft models. Not amazing by any means, but on par with a three-color-for-tournament army) until I finally bought some Tau, and considering I didn't have the income to justify purchasing full-price Warhammer for a long time, I thought that their behavior was fairly dickish.

I understand that playing MtG against someone with a bunch of printed cards might be annoying, but is it more dickish to use printed cards to try a particular new card or combination, or to say "feth you" and not let them use those cards/combos until they buy all enough booster packs to finally get the card or buy it at a 300% markup online?

I realize it's annoying to play someone Warhammer if they only ever use proxies and they've been playing for 10+ years and make $60K/year, but for someone just getting into the hobby or getting into a new army, I'd say it'd be more dickish to force them to buy the expensive official models for units which may actually be worthless or inefficient. This is a big issue with Warhammer, since to a new player, lots of models look cool but actually suck on the tabletop (Chaos Spawn and the Space Pope come to mind immediately, and to a lesser extent models/units that are very hard for a new player to use properly like Blood Knights, most Wood Elf units iirc, etc.).

If someone can buy every new iteration of the iPhone but balks at shelling out $10 for a model instead of a using a penny, they're being suitably annoying and I agree that that would be annoying as hell and probably would start to be pissed at him. However, if they're saving for college tuition or trying to pay off their credit card, I'd be a complete dick if I told him "No, go away until you spend a bunch of money you don't have."

Reply by: Lorek - click to view full reply 

171

Paper Vs. Plastic... @ 2011/11/04 20:35:58

Post by: Lorek

Ugh, thread necromancy.