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Post by: DreamWeaver
Hi!
Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?
Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.
However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Welcome to Dakka That thread was originally about paper terrain but swiftly got derailed into a discussion about paper models. If I remember correctly that soon became rather heated, as this topic tends to. As a modeller rather than a gamer I mostly agree with your viewpoint, but calling someone childish because you disagree with an opinion is giving the impression of an antagonistic OP. Which is going some for your debut post on Dakka. Nice start, most people at least choose to say, "Hi!" before kicking up a storm.
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Post by: DreamWeaver
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Welcome to Dakka
That thread was originally about paper terrain but swiftly got derailed into a discussion about paper models. If I remember correctly that soon became rather heated, as this topic tends to.
As a modeller rather than a gamer I mostly agree with your viewpoint, but calling someone childish because you disagree with an opinion is giving the impression of an antagonistic OP.
Which is going some for your debut post on Dakka.
Nice start, most people at least choose to say, "Hi!" before kicking up a storm.
I did
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
In which case I had better elucidate. Most people say Hi and then go on to say a little bit about themselves in an introductory manner. Sort of ice breaking rather than melting with a flamer.
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Post by: nkelsch
Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.
This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.
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Post by: snurl
Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.
It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.
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Post by: infinite_array
snurl wrote:Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.
It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.
Tell me - what happens when that person with the 2D paper models wipes the floor with you?
Wargaming - in all of it's forms - is pushing little markers on the table and making the explode-y noises in our heads. Some people want to get more involved into the hobby than others, and some people will never paint a model in their life.
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Post by: DreamWeaver
nkelsch wrote:Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.
This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.
1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/ gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...
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Post by: snurl
infinite_array wrote:snurl wrote:Why 2D?
3D Paper models can look pretty good. But 2D?
C'mon show a little effort.
Miniature Wargames are about the miniatures.
If you don't want to collect / build / paint an army you may want to look into games like Squad Leader, from companies like Avalon Hill or SSI. There are board game assotiations who still play paper based wargames, and although many of them are OOP, their following is alive and well.
It is stretching things a bit to ask someone with a completed army to play a game against 2D standees. Lets hope the standees are at least painted.
Tell me - what happens when that person with the 2D paper models wipes the floor with you?
Wargaming - in all of it's forms - is pushing little markers on the table and making the explode-y noises in our heads. Some people want to get more involved into the hobby than others, and some people will never paint a model in their life.
Thats just it. If you want to play with a paper army then go play a paper wargame. If you like the modeled version play that with models. Pushing into an established system with disregaurd for its requirements seems sort of rude to me. But what do I know?
I can't answer your other question because no one has ever wiped the floor with me.
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Post by: Ouze
DreamWeaver wrote:
1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...
Well, this seems less like an attempt at having a conversation and more an attempt at starting a flamewar, but I guess I enjoy either one, so why not.
There are 2 sets of guidelines here, with a single exception.
A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.
B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the " GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.
At the end of the day I almost never get to play against actual people, and so I while I wouldn't refuse a game against Cardboard Cutout guy, per se, but he'd certainly be my last choice of opponent should I be so blessed as to have a choice of adversaries.
Single Exception: Drop Pods. These models suck, are expensive, and do nearly nothing. No matter who you are, I'm not complaining about plastic cup drop pods. I built and painted a single drop pod and hated it the whole time. Your peanut butter jar drop pod is OK with me, but at least paint it or something and don't break my immersion.
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Post by: plastictrees
DreamWeaver wrote:Hi!
Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking...
So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that?
Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that?
Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.
However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do.
It's a shame that your friend is unemployed at the moment. As someone else has already pointed out, he's not entitled to any particular leisure activity. While his friends are probably happy to play him, neither he, nor anyone else, should expect other people to modify their gaming expectations to accommodate him. It's their leisure time as well and they should feel free to pursue it in the manner that gives them the most enjoyment, which might be playing against people using actual models.
As far as using 2d chits being more "hardcore" than using models, I don't see how that follows at all. If I'm gaming against someone that stinks to high heaven, I'm not going to assume that he spends so much time honing his "battle skills" that he doesn't have time to shower any more.
Clearly not playing against the person in question isn't immoral. It's people deciding that they want their gaming time to involve models and not paper tokens. Yourself and your friend can either deal with the fact that you don't get to tell people how they spend their free time or continue with the condescending rants.
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Post by: Vermillion
I remember warhammer 40k 2nd ed coming with stand up card cutouts, 4th ed warhammer also. Also RT came with ork and marine counters for players to use at the battle of the farm scenario. Obviously these were "to get you started and playing" measures which I think should still be usable today for those starting an army up. You want to spend time designing a few dozen base sized tokens for x, y and z? Sure it helps people get playing faster, and they're either going to buy the model or not.
Also while this isn't the thread to hark on about the cost of models we have tgo take that into account partly. Lets say little Jimmy wants to start this cool game with toy soldiers, he goes out and spends big bucks on the warhammer rulebook after saving his money. Drooling over the figures he then looks at average army sizes to start costing stuff up. One google later he arrives at dakka and looks at the army list section. Cross referencing it with the GW site, then taking 20% off as he hears about discount retailers he realises that shiney rulebook and his dreams will take a few months to realise. Surely it is better that in the meantime he is at least trying to play and get to grips with the rules as he builds an army imo, after all tokens have been used in skirmish and up sized games for years from roleplaying to wargaming.
Now long term I'm not sure if I'd enjoy seeing the tokens drop each time on a large scale game and see the modelling and painting part of wargaming as part of the fun, but whos to say everyone does. When I was playing at least 2 or 3 gasmes a week there was still the sea of unpainted or just primed models and that hasn't changed in 15 years.
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Post by: Howard A Treesong
Vermillion wrote:I remember warhammer 40k 2nd ed coming with stand up card cutouts, 4th ed warhammer also. Also RT came with ork and marine counters for players to use at the battle of the farm scenario. Obviously these were "to get you started and playing" measures which I think should still be usable today for those starting an army up. You want to spend time designing a few dozen base sized tokens for x, y and z? Sure it helps people get playing faster, and they're either going to buy the model or not.
There were only a couple of card things with 2nd ed 40K and 4th Fantasy and looked pretty bad. I think someone would be much better off scratchbuilding models of Ork dreadnoughts and other vehicles. Scratchbuilding a drop pod or rhino is not impossible because they are mostly box shaped and you can get plans online. Individual figures are more difficult to replace.
Perhaps someone could lend him figures for gaming.
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Post by: Ouze
Do Games Workshop stores keep in-store armies for people to use when trying out the game?
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Post by: SlaveToDorkness
They do for "intro games" but typically not for full scale games. (YRMV)
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Post by: kronk
Ouze wrote:
A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.
B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the "GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.
I agree with the shark that has an Assault Cannon in his mouth.
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
I dedicate my time to building and painting models and don't really like playing against 2D models because, although I spend most of my other time on tactics and actually playing games with miniatures I've built and painted, I still have my preferences. If I had a choice I'd play two games against the real army. I'm not real snobbish. I've been playing a half-painted Daemon army for the past six months whilst working on a completely new Ork army, and it was totally worth it -there's something special about breaking in that first game with a completely painted virgin army. What's that? You've drawn some pictures of models you like and stood them so I can see them better? That's nice. I usually just write a list. It's been interesting to learn about your hobby. Why did your friend get fired?
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Post by: remilia_scarlet
Well, many people on dakka are childish and opinionated, welcome to the internet, enjoy your stay.
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Post by: Lord Magnus
I never thought about it before as I only play at my FLGS and most of them never even proxy.. But I would be alright with people using paper 3d models or proxyed paper bases, but I definitely think it would detract from my enjoyment of the hobby to play against the whole army. When I play 40k I picture the game happening in a real place, I believe this cinematic element is one of the most enjoyable things about the hobby. Personally I think it would lose a lot of its appeal if it lost that, so I don't think I would want to play against an army composed mostly or entirely paper models, especially 2d ones
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Post by: lord_blackfang
I have to ask... if you're not going to use GW's awesome models, why torture yourself and stick to their horrid rules? If you just play for the rules, not the looks, find some good rules!
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Post by: nkelsch
DreamWeaver wrote:nkelsch wrote:Vassal says hi for the hardcore metagamer.
This thread seems like flame bait and I am not sure if it is serious or not especially with some of the preloaded insults by the OP.
1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/ gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...
Don't expect to play in a store whose sole purpose is to SELL MODELS. If you want to do it at home with consenting adults... fine... Showing up to a place of business where they sell a product, then use an alternative to that product in an arrogant display that says 'You will never make a dime off of me, but I will consume your resources, space and rent' is unreasonable.
If I was a store owner, I would refuse to let you play in my store because you are not a customer... your 2D paper models proves it. You are just as bad as counterfeiters and people who buy exclusively online to a store owner who provides free space to game because he is selling models.
You are not entitled to a FLGS table space or playerbase... Go download Vassal, meet people online and play your brains out. You don't waste a store owners time or the time of the people in the FLGS... You will then be online with like-minded people and have a good time.
This is a troll thread. And if your friend is unemployed, he has no time to 'play games'. He should be devoting 100% of his effort to finding a new job, working that job he probably feels is beneath him or taking steps to increase his marketability like education or even volunteer work. If you want a job, when an employer on an interview asks 'what have you been doing with your gap in employment.' saying "working weekends in a homeless shelter" goes over so much better than "playing boardgames with 2D paper knockoffs." This whole premise of this situation reeks of entitled self-centeredness and no one could be this unreasonable in real life... so it is a troll thread.
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Post by: malfred
lord_blackfang wrote:I have to ask... if you're not going to use GW's awesome models, why torture yourself and stick to their horrid rules? If you just play for the rules, not the looks, find some good rules!
Lol, thank you for posting that.
This is, in the end, why I still buy GW product. I like the models. I'm
not really into either game, but I do like the models. So whenever
my Warmachine and Hordes budget opens up (helped along by a product
shortage that's going to end soon!) I buy some stuff.
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Post by: AustonT
The (frequent) argument about paper models in 40k is a little tiresome. Yes, warning: I have no intent to be conciliatory and attempt to reach a compromise with someone elses view.
Having played 40k for over a decade I've giving GW more than it's pound of flesh, and I don't mind giving them more for thier models because I like the hobby. But my first army taught me an important lesson: try before you buy. Armies that sound good on paper don't always work out. So before I buy a while new army I do in fact pull out a set of bases, print out 2d models and play a few games. If I'm forced to do so at the FLGS I always have a back up army and list read to go, you shouldn't have to play my proxies if you don't have to and I'm quite gracious about changing. but if you insist and you are a dick, it'll probably be the last time we play anyway because the odds are I'll feel repelled by you.
Paper models are a useful tool, especially when the cost of models has skyrocketed. But they also don't permanently replace real models, until we talk about scratch building. I've heard folks who voice the opinion that once GW makes a plastic model scratch builds are not legal. That is patently untrue. GW actively encourages scratch building and conversions. We aren't talking about shoeboxes for rhinos, or vaguely shaped slabs of cardboard. Fully built, instantly recognizable models. I've seen some of dodgey quality but as that builder improves those go away. A the end of the day if someone plops a razorback on the table that I recognize as a razorback, with heavybolters it's game on. I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.
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Post by: Shotgun
Curious.
In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?
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Post by: Rymafyr
Shotgun wrote:Curious.
In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?
"True LOS"?!? Shirley, you must be joking...
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Post by: Arctik_Firangi
Rymafyr wrote:Shotgun wrote:Curious.
In a game of true LOS, how exactly does a 2D model work?
"True LOS"?!? Shirley, you must be joking...
It doesn't matter, we aren't talking about real gamers that count anyway. *hides*
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Post by: nkelsch
AustonT wrote: I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.
A rule in a rulebook doesn't make it 'legal' to monopolize space in a FLGS with items that show you are not a customer of the FLGS and also promote actions that take sales away from the FLGS that pays the rent on the space you game in.
There is a world of difference of 'try before you buy' and being a hardcore forever paper gamer. And most people 'proxy' with minis not print out WYSIWYG paper stand-ins...
I know more than one store owner who would not be amused by your paper stand-ins as it is bad for business and insulting to loiter and be a non-customer in a place of business.
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Post by: Garuss Acine
wow, lots of hate for people looking to game when the budget is a bit tight. myself personally, I'd play him without bating an eye, an army is an army, I could care less where it comes from. be it the company that made the rules, another model supplier or even paper. its about a player base, and having spent time in an area that had next to zero for most of my entire gaming experience, and found myself less caring whats on the table, and who I am playing with. if I want to 'see' two armies going toe to toe, then gosh darnit I have something I call an imagination, and gee golly wiz, it's free to use when it comes to a game, a board game.
I buy models both online, and from my current FLGS(hell no doubt I've help him furnish his house having brought in easily over a $1,000 worth of business to his store in the last year alone) I also make sure to go out of my way and buy most if not all modeling supplies from his store. I do however see it as a very important step to encourage growth in the player base, and no doubt the store owner would see it the same way. having two players that buy solely from your store is fine a dandy, but having guy that buys a majority of his stuff off the internet or simply doesn't buy at all, bring in three to four more player who buy from your store, I see that as far from a negative. besides, if more people are playing the more likely they are to bring in more players, and more players equals more cash. not to mention if there is a larger player base, means more returned customers.
as for being jobless, I have to agree there are better ways of spending ones time than playing games, but I don't know the full story, so I won't really be touching on this, because I can't really give an opinion on it. however if this is a troll flaming, BAD TROLL , VERY BAD TROLL!
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Post by: nkelsch
Garuss Acine wrote:wow, lots of hate for people looking to game when the budget is a bit tight. myself personally, I'd play him without bating an eye, an army is an army, I could care less where it comes from. be it the company that made the rules, another model supplier or even paper. its about a player base, and having spent time in an area that had next to zero for most of my entire gaming experience, and found myself less caring whats on the table, and who I am playing with. if I want to 'see' two armies going toe to toe, then gosh darnit I have something I call an imagination, and gee golly wiz, it's free to use when it comes to a game, a board game.
I buy models both online, and from my current FLGS(hell no doubt I've help him furnish his house having brought in easily over a $1,000 worth of business to his store in the last year alone) I also make sure to go out of my way and buy most if not all modeling supplies from his store. I do however see it as a very important step to encourage growth in the player base, and no doubt the store owner would see it the same way. having two players that buy solely from your store is fine a dandy, but having guy that buys a majority of his stuff off the internet or simply doesn't buy at all, bring in three to four more player who buy from your store, I see that as far from a negative. besides, if more people are playing the more likely they are to bring in more players, and more players equals more cash. not to mention if there is a larger player base, means more returned customers.
Those are pretty big checks your generalizations are writing... that all these exclusive internet shoppers bring in multiple new players? That 2d Paper models sells models and brings more gamers in? I am sure many store owners may disagree from their experiences... What if the people who buy in the store bring in dozens of people and the people with paper models or shop online bring no one? What happens then?
using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.
Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
nkelsch wrote:using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.
Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.
Luckily, it's not your place to decide who has the right to play where. Every manager can decide for himself who to let in based on his particular circumstances.
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Post by: ArbitorIan
DreamWeaver wrote:Hi! Saw this little thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/313519.page and I got thinking... So, some of you out there think that if people don't buy the model then they are not entitle to it, why is that? Others out there think there is no need for the models at all, again I ask, why is that? Personally, I see NO reason for the models, and a statement that someone shouldn't be able to play a unit if they cannot buy the model is childish and uninformed view of the world. Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same. However, on top of that, I see no reason why many of you refuse to play people who use 2d paper models. Personally, I see the 2d model users as the most hardcore players. They care not for the fanciful experiences of painting a model, no, they simply wish to kick ass, they have no need for fluff. Do you refuse to play these people because of that very reason? That they have dedicated their time to focusing on tactics and strategem whereas you have only spent your time painting? Furthermore, refusing to play someone because they might not have been able to afford a model and therefore made a 2d paper version is just downright immoral. I would have hoped not to see this sort of childish behavior on the forums, however, I see that many of you still have some growing up to do. It's a topic that comes up ALL THE TIME. The general answer is - there are lots of reasons people play this game, and if two people expect to get different things out of a match, there's a good chance one is going to come away disappointed. It sounds like the main reason to play the game for you is to 'kick ass' or play 'the game'. That's great. It doesn't matter if there are lovingly painted models or 2D bits of paper. Fine. But there are an awful lot of people who don't really care about playing a 'hardcore' game - the reason they enjoy playing is to push around their lovely-looking armies. They obviously won't have much fun playing against 2d paper models, and don't want to spend their leisure time playing that way. They would say (and I would say) that if the reason you play the game is to 'kick ass' and be 'hardcore', you have a lot of growing up to do. And that's fine too. Neither is wrong, they just want different things from a game.
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Post by: nkelsch
lord_blackfang wrote:nkelsch wrote:using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.
Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.
Luckily, it's not your place to decide who has the right to play where. Every manager can decide for himself who to let in based on his particular circumstances.
Actually, my models being fully painted, means I am welcome everywhere... and being an actual customer means managers listen to my feedback over people who show up and loiter... The issue is the OP posted all sorts of things about how people who disallow such play are ignorant and childish when there are very valid business reasons for banning such play and how it is unreasonable to expect to be able to be allowed to play EVERYWHERE with zero distinction between customers who have models to play with VS non customers taking up space with counterfeit product that directly competes with a store owner's livelihood.
Paper stand-ins will never be accepted everywhere nor should they be. The OP refuses to accept this truth. You can do whatever you want at home... No one will kick in your door and stomp on your paper minis there.
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Post by: njpc
Since i've been on the receiving end of the 2d / paper army i'll chime in my experiences.
Example 1: A buddy consider a investiment in a brand new army, who wants to test it out at his house. Also known as "base hammer."
~ I have no issues with the above. Basically its a matter of a buddy who probably knows the game testing out an army before he plays it. This will likely include some proxies and such.
Example 2: Gamer using scratch build ork battlewagons, drop pods, etc.
~ As long as it fits the part, no issues here at all. Sometimes scratch built are better anyway.
Example 3: the example above of the person without employment wanting to play and utilizing paper models. If this is in a GW I'd ask to play a small point game with the store armies. If this is in a FLGS, i'd visit my example above. I would try to make a way to have the person have the models, as they are making the effort. If they are asking for a huge scale game, i'd likely decline. A small point game i'd likely go for it as there is a smaller time dedication, and maybe they can get into the hobby with 2nd hand models, gifts, etc. I am not a person who likes to see people turned away from gaming as there are a lot of positive aspects to the hobby. Which can include mental sanity for someone who has been actively searching for a job and is bummed out they cannot find one.
Example 4: tournment. No, absolutely not. Tournments you should have the models, I'd prefer them to be painted, but that's not for every event.
To the OP: while I have my opinions for different reasons, plenty of people will say "no models, no play" and they are entitled to do so. Its their time and their money. How they use it is up to them. Who each person plays is up to them, minus a tournment, but then going in your know what to expect. There are lots of gamers who are ok with paper models because hey its a game, but a lot of people I game with would just walk away, because they like seeing the models, its part of the enjoyment factor for them. Will a person sacrifice their own enjoyment for anothers? Not everyone will do it, some will do it for small point games, but its not wrong or right, its how they spend their time.
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Post by: mullet_steve
Would I play against someone with 2d cutouts instead of models? there are some provisions
1. That they are 2 pieces of card or paper that intersect to produce a front and side view so Los can be roughly measured
2. That they are still WYSIWYG.
3. That this person dosen't activly attempt to look down at me for having a mostly shop bought model army.
4. That some effort has been put into the stand in mini's
so in closing I'd play against someone using stand ins as long as they attempt to accuratly describe the size, scale and equiptment of the model they're standing in for, and the person attempting to use said stand in army isn't an arse about it.
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Post by: Eilif
Lots of talk back and forth about whether or not folks would play against paper armies. Here's the results of a poll I conducted a while back.
This represents the minimum representation for miniatures that would be considered acceptable to play against for those who consider them primarily gamers with little interest in painting or modeling.
Painted WYSIWYG armies. 6% [ 16 ]
Partially painted WYSIWYG armies 11% [ 28 ]
Unpainted WYSIWYG armies. 27% [ 67 ]
Unpainted, non WYSIWYG armies 26% [ 65 ]
Proxy armies of gaming minaitures (other army or other brand) 16% [ 39 ]
Army men or other toys/household items used for -but not visually representative of- gaming units/terrain. 2% [ 5 ]
Paper standup cutouts of the units/figures and 3d paper terrain. 1% [ 3 ]
Cardboard 2d cutouts and 2d outlines to define terrain. 2% [ 6 ]
Cardboard chits or other counters on a game map. 9% [ 22 ]
Total Votes : 251
It's not very scientific, and it does intentionally leave out those who favor the painting/modeling side of the hobby, so it has serious limitations.
However a couple of notable points from those surveyed.
-12% would play with paper models of some sort.
-30% wouldn't require a single GW model on the table.
-56% would play with entire armies that are both unpainted and non-WYSIWYG or less.
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
I stopped at the part where 2d models were applauded. Umm... no. Have some respect for the hobby, eh? Using cups as drop pods and cut outs for space marines just doesn't make any sense to me. Get off our lawn. You're playing the wrong game IMO if that's how you're gonna roll--there are plenty of 2D games out there to run to instead.
If you do this among friends and neither has a problem, then whatever, but I'm a pretty casual gamer (I play no more than 1-2 games a month, I model maybe once a month, and I'm a terrible painter so I rarely paint), but even I detest this nonsense.
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Post by: MightyGodzilla
If your a real life friend (person I'm cool with) I'll let you get away with just about anything.
Otherwise we can take my time machine back to 88-93 and play a game of BattleTech with the cardstock cutouts. Knowing a little bit about the guys situation makes me feel for him....a little. We wouldn't be playing in a FLGS, maybe my garage.
I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?
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Post by: nkelsch
MightyGodzilla wrote:
I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?
I would be pretty sure GW would still require models at 'ardboyz because 'ardboyz is a shameful attempt to sell models and GW only cares about selling models. They still require WYSIWYG. Paper cutouts don't sell models for GW... Feel free to practice with paper as long as you show up to 'ardboyz with 2500 points of purchased plastic in GW's eyes.
The issue boils down to some people hate standards because they are excluded. As long as you game with like-minded gamers, you shouldn't have an issue. Don't rage against the machine when a standard you refuse to meet gets you excluded from a gaming location... That is where the internet rage comes from.
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Post by: Worglock
SlaveToDorkness wrote:They do for "intro games" but typically not for full scale games. (YRMV)
My local GW store has 8 40k and 6 Fantasy armies for use on "Beginner Battle Days" (generally Sunday.)
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Post by: nectarprime
DreamWeaver wrote:
Personally I have 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same.
Can you post some pics of your 2D models that look just as badass , if not exactly the same, as the GW versions? Thanks!
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Post by: Vermillion
njpc wrote:
Example 2: Gamer using scratch build ork battlewagons, drop pods, etc.
~ As long as it fits the part, no issues here at all. Sometimes scratch built are better anyway.
Example 3: the example above of the person without employment wanting to play and utilizing paper models. If this is in a GW I'd ask to play a small point game with the store armies. If this is in a FLGS, i'd visit my example above. I would try to make a way to have the person have the models, as they are making the effort. If they are asking for a huge scale game, i'd likely decline. A small point game i'd likely go for it as there is a smaller time dedication, and maybe they can get into the hobby with 2nd hand models, gifts, etc. I am not a person who likes to see people turned away from gaming as there are a lot of positive aspects to the hobby. Which can include mental sanity for someone who has been actively searching for a job and is bummed out they cannot find one.
I applaud these and especially think that example 3 rings a LOT of truth to me. It does help fill the day and stop you climbing walls, especially when you are unable to work due to something beyond your own control. Warhammer games on a budget means a lot of choices, and ebay trawling and can take quite some time to get stuff together. A year on and I'm nearing the playable army mark with the WoC in my blog.
My personal view point was it at least let me get back into painting in the months between ebay purchases as stuff got painted, stripped and repainted  .
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Post by: AustonT
nkelsch wrote:AustonT wrote: I can't remember exactly what page it's on in the BRB but there's a paragraph called the most important rule. We all agree to a set of rules with plastic, metal, and yes paper proxies. Because until you shrink a superhuman killing machine from 38,000 years in the future to 30mm, they are all proxies.
I know more than one store owner who would not be amused by your paper stand-ins as it is bad for business and insulting to loiter and be a non-customer in a place of business.
Then you know more than one store owner that wouldn't see a dollar from me. You seem to have missed that I dont just bring a paper army in fact I said:
If I'm forced to do so at the FLGS I always have a back up army and list read to go, you shouldn't have to play my proxies if you don't have to and I'm quite gracious about changing.
If my bags of legal models and past purchases encourage you to accuse me of loitering, you'll never see another of my dollars. And probably none of my friends either. Having used two or more of MY armies to tach new gamers and generate business in the FLGS' I frequent; attitudes like yours would convince me to spend my money elsewhere.
The point I was making that you clearly missed is that paper models have a place in our hobby, but they do not REplace actual models.
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Post by: Worglock
MightyGodzilla wrote:If your a real life friend (person I'm cool with) I'll let you get away with just about anything.
Otherwise we can take my time machine back to 88-93 and play a game of BattleTech with the cardstock cutouts. Knowing a little bit about the guys situation makes me feel for him....a little. We wouldn't be playing in a FLGS, maybe my garage.
I wonder what the 'Ardboyz think about this. They don't even paint/prime. That's two steps above paper IMO. Anyone who fits the bill care to give their opinion?
I'm in the same boat here. Do I know you? yes? OK, you wanna try out something new, here use my models or use these models that I went and twisted some arms (or verbally berated someone) to make available for you.
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Post by: Garuss Acine
nkelsch wrote:
Those are pretty big checks your generalizations are writing... that all these exclusive internet shoppers bring in multiple new players? That 2d Paper models sells models and brings more gamers in? I am sure many store owners may disagree from their experiences... What if the people who buy in the store bring in dozens of people and the people with paper models or shop online bring no one? What happens then?
using paper models exclusively shows the FLGS you are not a customer and never intend to be. Therefor you have no right to be in his store or use his space, especially if space is crowded. I would be upset if I a paying customer couldn't play because someone was using the space with print outs of magic cards or 2d paper wargaming models.
Do what you want on the space you pay rent on... your paper models are not welcome at all FLGS nor should they be. I would support stores who activley band such a pratice of paper 2D models.
well this is your choice, I just happen to disagree with it. just because they are not buying models, doesn't mean they can't support the FLGS in other ways, like buying sodas and snacks from the shop, or any other small item purchases.
as for my 'generalizations', I used them only because this has happened here at my local store, the only reason I stayed around at all was of the people playing with armies bought outside of the store. in truth I do the same, I buy what I have to have on the spot from the FLGS but everything else I get offline(trades, ebay, etc), and because of me directly, the store owner has had four people I guided to the store, to buy armies, some are now even considering picking up fantasy armies. if the owner had band second hand items, or models from entirely different retails, or just count as in general, I wouldn't have stayed and he would have been out at least 5 or so customers. when I first arrived not a big deal, but now about a year later, he is really relying on us die hards to bring in more players, which is why his store is not merely afloat, but seeming well off.
so you'd refuse to play someone with paper models because they don't support the store, well here is a question for you, what happens if a player buys all the models, buys glue, paints, brushes and the like, even assembles his stuff, but prefers to keep it all safe at home and instead uses 2d print outs of them to play? would you still refuse to play them? as clearly they are helping the gaming store, but want to ease the burden of putting their models at risk, or having to lug them around?
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Post by: nkelsch
Garuss Acine wrote:
so you'd refuse to play someone with paper models because they don't support the store, well here is a question for you, what happens if a player buys all the models, buys glue, paints, brushes and the like, even assembles his stuff, but prefers to keep it all safe at home and instead uses 2d print outs of them to play? would you still refuse to play them? as clearly they are helping the gaming store, but want to ease the burden of putting their models at risk, or having to lug them around?
Yes. I would refuse to play this person because this person doesn't exist. Your scenario is a false premise and intellectually dishonest and not representative of the whole or even a minority. I don't think there is a single legitimate person who owns a full army and exclusively plays a 2D paper cut-out of that army.
Promoting paper play even if they supposedly own models in a closet promotes people not to purchase models but to counterfeit their own by making 2D paper cutouts instead of purchasing from the store. If they are worried about putting models at risk or lugging them around, they are in the wrong hobby or playing the wrong game... go play video games then.
I always enjoy seeing non-customers overestimate how much they support the store and the store owes them one fromt he sodas they drink. The owner is not running a 7-11 and your buying a soda and maybe giving him 25cent profit for the day is *NOT SUPPORT*.
I am glad there are tons of events out there with appearance requirements which purposfully exclude people. It makes the games overall better in quality and I enjoy playing with likeminded players who enjoy the same things I do. It is nice to know I am welcome everywhere becausemy models are official, painted and WYSIWYG.
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Post by: KilroyKiljoy
It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.
Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.
And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.
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Post by: Platuan4th
KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.
Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.
And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.
Proxying is actually very common in MTG. People print out the card face and slip it into a sleeve with another unused card.
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Post by: njpc
KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.
Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.
And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.
So from your example: your telling me people don't considering proxying in card games? I'd disagree. In my magic days, we did plenty of test gaming using photocopied cards / stand in cards instead of buying individual cards to see if things worked. I would think if you are even teaching a friends and its for own personal use. You could photocopy your entire deck, put it in sleeves, and your friends would try it out. Then if they liked it, start collecting. Proxying is common place amongst games shop hobby systems.
Part of your statement is 100% accurate.
In competitive play IE tournments proxying / stand in's will not be allowed.
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Post by: KilroyKiljoy
Platuan4th wrote:KilroyKiljoy wrote:It's funny people bring up this issue from this point of view, but never in other games, where certai: Card Games. Never have I once seen someone make a Magic the Gathering deck out of paper strips or slits of cardboard. Your initial reaction to seeing that is "Wtf, gtfo, srsleh", and rightfully so, because playing a card game without the cards is cheap, and not even allowed.
Sure, if it was a friendly game, you may let it slide, but in the competitive world of gaming, that kind of thing is totally inappropriate.
And that's my $0.02 on this flame bait.
Proxying is actually very common in MTG. People print out the card face and slip it into a sleeve with another unused card.
Seriously? I've honestly never seen it. That's not allowed in tournament settings or the like, right?
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Post by: Vermillion
Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.
My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?
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Post by: MightyGodzilla
No, not allowed in tourneys. Many done in friendly games where people are doing deck designs. Automatically Appended Next Post: Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.
My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?
You should try to support them in some way if you'd like to keep them in your community (and game at their stores). Full retail 100% of the time, no. But would it hurt that badly to buy glues, paints, the occasional $25 box or two at full retail instead of $20 online. Also you don't have to blab (not saying that you do btw) about excellent online prices to complete strangers a block away from the GW. Just tell your buddies, and let GW shark the strangers to keep themselves afloat.
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Post by: Paul
Back to wargameing...
I would personaly much prefer to see colour, stand up, card cuttouts than bear plastic. I think that annoys me more than anything. Painting takes time, models cost money. Some people cant paint very well or afford minis, or hate painting. Fine, but at least put the minimum effot in of base coating the models. At least there is a reason for card, and as long as someone has taken the time to stand them up and cut them out properly then fair enough.
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Post by: Ouze
Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.
My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?
I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.
If you like it enough to spend time in there, then you obviously find value in what they provide and should pay for it if you wish to continue receiving it.
Or, if you prefer, analogy:
"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"
"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"
"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"
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Post by: darkPrince010
I guess for me if I'm looking for a game to test a new army/mechanics/crunch, I could care less what your or my armies look like. However, if I've got a nice looking army (Note I didn't say GW models, or even plastic. Just good-looking), I'd expect your stuff to be equally nice-looking. This also includes WYSIWYG: I'd be overjoyed at playing against a paper-cutout Nids army that is perfect WYSIWYG if it meant not playing the guy with 100% GW Eldar that he's proxying for SW. Doubly so if the Eldar are greys/black-primer. As for the FLGS, it depends on what I use the FLGS for (Let us assume for this example I only buy online for models and glue/paint/etc). If my FLGS is a GW, and I never use the tables, you're damn right I'll buy from a cheaper alternative, especially if the prices are drastically higher. There's no reason for me to set foot inside the store in this scenario. If I use the tables or occasional tourney in the GW store, I'll buy the occasional kit, perhaps to a value of $5-10 for every couple games or something overall, so I personally don't feel like I'm freeloading. If it's a Non-GW store (So sells gaming/modeling stuff apart from GW models), there's a high chance I'll buy non-model items from them, whether or not I use their tables. If I do use their tables, see the above for approximate purchases-to-games ratio.
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Post by: KilroyKiljoy
Ouze wrote:Or, if you prefer, analogy:
"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"
"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"
"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"
You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar. I salute you.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Ouze wrote:
"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"
I'm going to say yes on this one, because you can brew much better quality and tasting coffee than the crud Starbucks tries to pass as "coffee".
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Post by: vhwolf
Ouze wrote:Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.
My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?
I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business.
Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.
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Post by: Platuan4th
vhwolf wrote:Ouze wrote:Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous. My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use? I don't have a local gaming store at all, so I don't have first-hand experience. My feeling, however, would be that if you spend a lot of time in a store - any store - you should spend your money there. There is nothing stopping you from hanging out in Barnes & Nobles all day and then buying all your books on Amazon because they are cheaper, but you don't need a degree in economics to tell you that if enough people did that, Barnes & Nobles would go out of business. Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise. 1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores. 2. To vhwolf: Not having a sitting area never stopped teenagers from clogging the aisles to hang out and not buy anything. We had to kick them out weekly for being a fire hazard.
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Post by: Dave-c
Fact of the matter is this, you place that $hat on the table against me, i pack my $hat up and walk away. It is rude, it is offensive, it is foul. If you dont have the models to play, dont play against someone you dont know. In a friendly game it is perfectly fine, but not against some random bloke at a gamestore!
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Post by: Worglock
Vermillion wrote:Quick question given that many on dakka feel GW's prices are outrageous.
My LGS IS a GW, therefore I should stump up full retail, use their glues, paints, brushes only in order to support it instead of using stuff I buy online cheaper than RRP for whichever company makes what I use?
Well, if you're using their facilities to paint or play in, then yes, you should support your local store.
My local store is also a GW store. It's the only option that I have within the radius that I can travel for "hobby stuff" since I am effectively "on call" 24/7 for an elderly parent. Without that GW store, I have no hobby store. Plus, that store employs several of my friends, so if it closes, not only am I out of a store, my friends are out of jobs.
That's why I buy from that store even though I can get everything cheaper from an online source.
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Post by: vhwolf
Platuan4th wrote:vhwolf wrote:Ouze wrote:Vermillion wrote:
Barnes and Nobel are slowly getting rid of the place to hang out in their stores because they studied it and found out that people were not buying the merchandise.
1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.
2. To vhwolf: Not having a sitting area never stopped teenagers from clogging the aisles to hang out and not buy anything. We had to kick them out weekly for being a fire hazard.
Just proves the point that some people will abuse anything they can get away with. Also that you should support the places you frequent.
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Post by: malfred
Garuss Acine wrote:
well this is your choice, I just happen to disagree with it. just because they are not buying models, doesn't mean they can't support the FLGS in other ways, like buying sodas and snacks from the shop, or any other small item purchases.
I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it
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Post by: darkPrince010
malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to it  I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...
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Post by: KilroyKiljoy
darkPrince010 wrote:malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it 
I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...
No, but it should be adopted. Just like Orks, the Big ones get to lead.
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Post by: malfred
I just think it's a mistake to assume that only buying snacks
at the game store is supporting the store. The first part of my
sentence is serious, the getting in line in front of a paying
customer is not.
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Post by: Garuss Acine
nkelsch wrote:
Yes. I would refuse to play this person because this person doesn't exist. Your scenario is a false premise and intellectually dishonest and not representative of the whole or even a minority. I don't think there is a single legitimate person who owns a full army and exclusively plays a 2D paper cut-out of that army.
Promoting paper play even if they supposedly own models in a closet promotes people not to purchase models but to counterfeit their own by making 2D paper cutouts instead of purchasing from the store. If they are worried about putting models at risk or lugging them around, they are in the wrong hobby or playing the wrong game... go play video games then.
I always enjoy seeing non-customers overestimate how much they support the store and the store owes them one fromt he sodas they drink. The owner is not running a 7-11 and your buying a soda and maybe giving him 25cent profit for the day is *NOT SUPPORT*.
I am glad there are tons of events out there with appearance requirements which purposfully exclude people. It makes the games overall better in quality and I enjoy playing with likeminded players who enjoy the same things I do. It is nice to know I am welcome everywhere becausemy models are official, painted and WYSIWYG.
firstly you'll note I didn't argue that this person did or did not exist, it was simple if this happened, against all the odds. from your terms I am guessing you are/were a store owner at some point, that or simply a disgruntled GW buyer like the lot of us  . I am simply going to disagree with you, as clearly you have no desire to see anything other than your side in this matter. of course this all up to opinions and we all have a right to our own.
as i had said in my first post, I alone have brought in well over a grand worth of business to this FLGS, I know this because we are given 10% of our purchases as store credit(normally 5%, it goes up to ten after your first $1,000 spent). and seeing as I have roughly $100 in store credit I can safely say I have brought in enough to support the store. do I assume I am owed anything by the owner, hell no, for all I could care he could close his tables down and turn them into space for more stock, I'd just no longer have a reason to go there anymore(a 45min train ride one way).
events/tournies are a whole different can of worms, and I won't even touch that subject, in truth thats why I never go. I have no issues meeting the standards, I just have no desire to be told how to have my army by anyone other than myself. paired with the utter lack of events/tournies ever around or within distance to go, to the horror stories of my firends that have gone, I have lost any real interest in them, and am more happy to stick to the laid back, garage/ LGS groups that simply play for the fun of it, with an understanding lot and owner of a store.
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Post by: nkelsch
darkPrince010 wrote:malfred wrote:I doubt that the sodas and snacks support the shop. All they're really doing
is buying soda/snack inventory up before the paying customer can get to
it 
I understand what you're getting at, but aren't they selling soda and candy regardless? Should someone who buys soda and models get to go to the front of the checkout line? Unless I'm sorely mistaken, at other stores, the guy with the largest shopping cart load doesn't get a free pass ahead of the guy with a can of soup and some oranges...
Yes... They should. Any adult with a high school education should be well aware with the almost nonexistent profit margin on these so called profitable snacks and that purchasing them in no way is fulfilling your part as a respectful customer spending all day taking up gaming space in the owners store.
If there was a real customer making a real purchase or asking real questions then yes... They should be moved to the front of the line before the guy buying a snickers bar in a shop that sells games and minis.
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Post by: darkPrince010
I'm not saying that snacks are profitable; I'm just saying that assigning greater status to a customer based on purchase size seems like a darn quick way to lose customers.
For those of you with any store or business, I dare you to allow people in line to pay first only based on the total of the stock they have in their basket, and to give less and less respect to people who buy less and less inventory...
I'd be willing to bet that not only would you alienate the people that would have bought minor purchases, you'll probably piss off people who would/do buy more and drive your business away.
You don't see grocery stores turning away the guys in the Express lanes or serving the person buying a month's groceries first simply because it'll net them more profit. This is because it's a poor, some would say gakky, business practice that would lose them customers faster then darn near any other practice I could think of that's within the boundaries of legality.
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Post by: Ouze
Platuan4th wrote:1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.
I'll try and remember to omit the S. Tangent: After quitting working Waldenbooks years ago, I applied at a BN. A few weeks later I got a postcard from them saying they had hired someone else for the position. I remember thinking how tasteful of them it was to send that postcard. I've never had any other job I've ever applied for do such a thing, and although I obviously would have preferred the job, I remember really appreciating that at least I wouldn't have to wonder if they were ever going to call.
41111
Post by: Daston
I'm guessing the sort of people who think its ok to play paper models without testing in mind are the sort of people who think its ok to make a Toyota look like a Ferrari and turn up to shows and events showing off their 'supercar'.
I personally wouldn't play against a 2d army I spent a fair amount of time and money making my army and expect my oppent to honour this with actual models and not take the piss by deploying an army of cereal boxes!
As said if you just want to play the game play vassle or dawn of war but then you probably prefer a pirate copy of that so cant play it onine
20075
Post by: Vermillion
Ouze wrote:
"My movie theater concession prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for popcorn and kit-kats in order to support it, instead if bringing in microwave popcorn from home, which is way cheaper?"
"My local Italian restaurant prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for fettuccine Alfredo in order to support it, instead of bringing in my own pasta from home, which is way cheaper?"
"Starbucks prices are outrageous! Do you think I should pay full price for a latte in order to support it, instead of bringing in a thermos of my own coffee from home, which is way cheaper?"
 My sides hurt from loling so much. Very good points, especially about support places you want kept around. Honestly no proper gaming store near me either and the thing should have been in quotes. I'm glad it's started some discussion and see some people think despite the extra expense, even in the current economic mess, supporting a GW store is the way to go.
Niow that is indeed a good thing, it keeps a local place for gamers to meet up, and a place where people can initially get into the hobby. They go in have a look around, a spark of interest is there they start buying. Akin to I assume the book store comparison where people sit flick through the books and get into them so much they buy them there and then to finish reading.
All well and good in an ideal world. But lets be honest, way things are these days if people can save a bit they will choose to. It's why comparison sites are popping up left right and centre. Putting this back into the original discussions context I'm agreeing in a store, yeah bit of a bad idea to bring out some scribbled on paper to represent your land raider or a can is a monolith. Friendly at home try a list out thing before buying I understand (surely though theres better ways? Perhaps a discussion for another thread).
Supporting somewhere local, in theory a good idea, even split your buys 50-50 in a pinch. If it's the cost of postage from a company or higher to even get to a local place (my circumstances past few months) then I'd stick with a discount and postage though and if theres no local gaming club see about starting one
On a side note though munchies at cinemas are overpriced
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Post by: nkelsch
darkPrince010 wrote:I'm not saying that snacks are profitable; I'm just saying that assigning greater status to a customer based on purchase size seems like a darn quick way to lose customers.
For those of you with any store or business, I dare you to allow people in line to pay first only based on the total of the stock they have in their basket, and to give less and less respect to people who buy less and less inventory...
I'd be willing to bet that not only would you alienate the people that would have bought minor purchases, you'll probably piss off people who would/do buy more and drive your business away.
You don't see grocery stores turning away the guys in the Express lanes or serving the person buying a month's groceries first simply because it'll net them more profit. This is because it's a poor, some would say gakky, business practice that would lose them customers faster then darn near any other practice I could think of that's within the boundaries of legality.
Like a FLGS has a long line in reality?
You can't compare a grocery store to a FLGS because you are not hanging out in the grocery store for multiple hours at a time, using their stoves or sitting at a dining table for hours on end without paying anything. If they had that SERVICE in addition to being a retail store, damn straight the service would be a free premium on top of retail business and go to the people who 'buy more' first.
I think alienating NON-CUSTOMERS like your candy bar supporter is fine because they are non customers and are overestimating their worth as a customer based off of the paltry support they show via buying worthless items. It is like a manager at a restaurant asking you to leave a table because you sat there for 2 hours eating free bread and tap water while a paying customer who wants to order a steak dinner wishes to be seated. I see rude people all the time monopolize tables without buying food at bars our outside seating and basically the waiter then has a hole in his wait section where he is making no money or tip... all because someone thinks they are a paying customer sitting outside for 3 hours at a dining table sipping diet cokes. I have witnessed managers asking them to leave and they get all indignant, and I then tell the manager I support their decision, because I, the paying customer who wanted to eat at this restaurant had to wait for a table because this person was basically loitering and HARMING the business and taking money out of the waiters pocket.
Asking loiterers to leave your store is a common business practice... Either you misunderstand economics or are simply entitled that you believe you deserve a place to game and people to game against without having to pay for it.
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Post by: AustonT
It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.
1185
Post by: marv335
I don't get to play nearly as often as I like.
To be honest part of the experience for me is the look of my opponents army.
Why should I waste my valuable and scarce playing time playing against a paper army?
For me, there is nothing as satisfying (gaming wise) as a game between two fully painted armies on a well made board.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Ouze wrote:Platuan4th wrote:1. To Ouze: it's Barnes and Noble, no s at the end. Sorry, pet peeve from working there for 5 years. This can be ignored, of course, if you were referring to multiple stores.
I'll try and remember to omit the S. Tangent: After quitting working Waldenbooks years ago, I applied at a BN. A few weeks later I got a postcard from them saying they had hired someone else for the position. I remember thinking how tasteful of them it was to send that postcard. I've never had any other job I've ever applied for do such a thing, and although I obviously would have preferred the job, I remember really appreciating that at least I wouldn't have to wonder if they were ever going to call.
Yeah, other than the hours restrictions(only managers can get 40 hours, "full time" are generally restricted to 32 hours and keeping a tight rein on "overtime" for all employees) to stay in budget, the company is very good about its employees and potential hires. They're the only store I know of that tends to keep almost every seasonal worker(except those people that only wanted to work seasonally or that are REALLY bad at the job) after seasonal work is over. The cafe has a high turn over rate, though, due to stress(not all of which is tied to explaining to 20+ people a day that the cafe isn't a Starbucks, they just serve Starbucks coffee).
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Post by: nkelsch
AustonT wrote:It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.
At least I don't feel like I am entitled to game for hours on a FLGS store owner's tables for hours with paper 2D cutouts of a product the store sells but I refuse to buy because I bought a candy bar once. I would rather be a socially aware and respectful snob than an entitled selfish mooch unaware or purposefully ignorant to how his actions impact others.
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Post by: reds8n
AustonT wrote:It must be awful difficult talking to people in person what with looking down your nose AND standing on that pedestal.
Can we not make comments like this please, they don't advance the conversation in any useful way and just put people's backs up. And rightfully so.
.. we'll see if this thread still has any mileage left in. But let's please leave the insults and digs out.
Obliged.
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Post by: Shotgun
nkelsch wrote:
At least I don't feel like I am entitled to game for hours on a FLGS store owner's tables for hours with paper 2D cutouts of a product the store sells but I refuse to buy because I bought a candy bar once. I would rather be a socially aware and respectful snob than an entitled selfish mooch unaware or purposefully ignorant to how his actions impact others.
Even in my broke college days, I always managed to pick up a pot of paint, or a pack of magic cards or something during the long gaming days.
After I got hired there, I completely came to loathe the "free breathers" as I termed them. The worst was the one RPG group using the back room. When i started working the evening shift, I came to realize that the group was using the stock on the shelves as their free "library". Went in the back room and of 10 books on the table, 9 were store property. The guy before me (who was fired for being damn lazy) just let it happen. Needless to say, the one book with the broken spine they had to replace and they were banned.
We also solved the "buying candy" problem by buying a vending machine at a local auction and making a Costco run once a month.
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Post by: jbunny
Here is my thing. I got into 40K right after college. I had a job, and no bills and I still stayed with my parents. I had disposable income soI bought an army. Shortly after that I moved out, got married and had lots of bills.
I did not buy any more models for about 3 years. ANd when I did, I slowing bought a unit at a time.
This is an expensive hobby. Like it or not, but it takes money to play this game.
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Post by: Eilif
Oh, the shame...
I just realized that I (and you all as well) have been sucked into a near-flamewar by a greenhorn who still hasn't show us the..
DreamWeaver wrote:
... 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same...
...that were his (or her) entire justification for starting this thread. I'm going to tentatively call Shenanigans on this one.
I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.
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Post by: kronk
Eilif wrote:
I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.
Well spotted, old chap. I dare say this Dreamweaver fellow has created quite the rucuss and bru-haha.
I demand satisfaction, post haste.
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Post by: mullet_steve
Lol the newbee may have started a heated topic and done a runner but the topic of conversation has brought up some interesting ideas?
43848
Post by: nectarprime
Eilif wrote:Oh, the shame...
I just realized that I (and you all as well) have been sucked into a near-flamewar by a greenhorn who still hasn't show us the..
DreamWeaver wrote:
... 2 Titans, several land raiders and bikes and land speeders, rhinos, thunderfire cannons, and drop pods, which, in my opinion, look just as badass as the GW models, if not exactly the same...
...that were his (or her) entire justification for starting this thread. I'm going to tentatively call Shenanigans on this one.
I generally dislike forum ultimatums, but I think it's time for the newbie to pony up with some pictures, or stop posting threads on potentially inflamatory issues.
28327
Post by: mullet_steve
Although I do understand why from an economic basis some stores do not like people utilising stand in models I utterly fail to see how anyone anywhere can question the validity of scratchbuilt models, whether they be plasticard or paperstock.... They had to get the materials from somewhere???
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Post by: nkelsch
mullet_steve wrote:Although I do understand why from an economic basis some stores do not like people utilising stand in models I utterly fail to see how anyone anywhere can question the validity of scratchbuilt models, whether they be plasticard or paperstock.... They had to get the materials from somewhere???
I don't think people are lumping in using scratchbuilt but honest effort drop pods as part of an overall army of minis with 2D paper standinds for an entire army...
Any attempt to lump scratchbuilds with an entire 2D paper army is an attempt to cloud the issue. I think everyone realizes some scratchbuilds are ok and are usually held to the 'rule of cool'. A nice drop pod will get a lot more play over a dixie cup with a pen top glued to it.
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Post by: malfred
Scratchbuilt cardstock models are sweet, but a 2d paperstand
model would make me lol for a little bit and then eventually I
would not want to play against it.
Not that my opinion matters, but if you asked me to play
against it, I would probably only do so a few times unless
hilarity was guaranteed for every game.
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Post by: mullet_steve
Yet somewhere on these pages and in general rumours I have heared and remember only half heartedly I recall people stating that in certain flags and tournaments that a model or army has to be at least 50% GW to be included. This would appear to be a related issue even if only vaguely.
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Post by: AustonT
The percentage GW thing is more fluid than you might think. No one goes out of thier way to confirm how much of the model is GW unless it's blatantly a 3rd party model or looks wonky. It's easier to buy a set of Heavy bolters and glue them on rather than scratch building then, if only to avoid the hassle.
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Post by: darkPrince010
@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?
Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.
As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.
28327
Post by: mullet_steve
darkPrince010 wrote:@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?
Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.
As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.
Taking that onboard would people agree to a system whereby you rent the gaming table? An imaginary store owner could write up a contract that states a purchase of $5.00 gives you a 50% discount voucher $10.00 or more gets you either one 100% discount voucher or 1 voucher per $10.00 spent and table rent could be as low as $2 each or something like that?
This would allow loyal customers to play for free whereby new and non custmoers that want to use the table will have to pay.
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Post by: darkPrince010
@mullet_steve: See, this seems like a great idea to me. It removes the ambiguity of "How much is enough to be a paying customer," while also keeping the moochers away. Your prices seem pretty fair to me, since this wouldn't drive away non-customers (People who'd be willing to pay $2 for the table but not $10 on models or something like that). Heck, you could even set up a "Membership" for your store: It costs $X per month, and in exchange you get a Y% discount and use of the tables for free or at a discount. This would also keep the income stream to the store steady, instead of it being variable based on purchases: Ie, 3 people over a 6 month period may only buy $50 worth of models, say netting them 3 free vouchers for a table and giving the store only $50 of imaginary profit. Over the same amount of time, a $10/month membership would net the store $180 in profit not counting any models bought by the customers, and probably encourage the customers to come in and play more often (During which there's a better chance of them buying models and refreshments, further adding to the store profits).
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Post by: mullet_steve
the idea or scheme is however entirely based on the store owner having the idea on his own or given to him/her/them..... I don't know how many FLAG's owners read dakka?
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Post by: nkelsch
darkPrince010 wrote:@nkelsch: Well, perhaps a grocery store is less relevant as an example, but what about the Barnes and Noble? If someone sits around and read comics for an hour or two and buys a single Cliff Notes or something, will they get yelled at by the employees when compared to the guy who also sat around and read comics and then bought a novel or two?
Unless you have a hard-and-fast rule/sign in your (imaginary) store saying "You must purchase $X much to loiter," you'll likely have a lot of paying customers getting angry when you ask them to leave, and imo rightfully so. If you want to impose a financial minimum in order to use your stores facilities, that's fine and fully within a business owners rights, but expecting someone to magically guess the minimal purchase needed in order to qualify is ridiculous. Without stating the minimal purchase needed, where is the line drawn for defining a "paying customer"?
A candy bar?
A pack of MtG?
A Black Library book?
A model box?
A Battleforce?
A Forgeworld Manta?
This is a perfect example of how YMMV for different customers/store owners.
As for the Scratchbuilt vs 2D debate, I usually say the nicer it looks, the longer I'll allow it, regardless of % GW.
But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.
Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.
Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.
If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.
I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...
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Post by: leemie0704
http://www.yourmovegames.com/battleground_index.html
this game uses 2d units and plays similar to fantasy. To be honest if GW came out with 2d cards like this where you could cross off members of the unit as they died I think more people would play fantasy. It would allow people to try the game before buying models and proxy units in an official way. This would result in more opponents which is good and starting the game wouldn't be as large of an investment. I only think this would work for fantasy smoothly though because of ranking up. I suppose you could use it for 40k too but it would be more difficult.
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Post by: Eilif
nkelsch wrote: You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.
This seems a bit extreme, especially when 15-18% is considered the standard tip. I prefer to tip 18-25 depending on the service, but 20% is not generally the cutoff for "human scum" in the USA.
Miss Manners states:
Knowing this, polite people leave at least the conventional tip (a 15 percent minimum before tax is added) regardless of the quality of the service. (If it is bad, they should complain, as in other cases when people do not perform adequately what they are hired to do.)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31070-2004Nov6.html
As to the particular tangent of this topc regarding what is supporting your local store, I agree with you that it should be common sense regarding what is or isn't support. As I buy almost exclusively out of print, or indie minaitures and games, my support for my FLGS (where I game once every 2 weeks) is less than it should be, but I do make an effort to buy things there and even do the occasional special order. Unfortunately, there will always be those who want tables for nothing. For those people, there is only the pressure of their peers to bring them in line or the boot of the FLGS owner to drive them out.
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Post by: dripwelquest
nkelsch wrote:
But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.
Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.
Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.
If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.
I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...
Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.
2515
Post by: augustus5
Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.
Book stores are going out of business because they have a dying business model. They did fine with allowing people to sit and read in their stores, even setting up little coffee shops inside some of the stores. They probably gained customers by having such an inviting atmosphere. With the rise of the electronic book medium, paper books are becoming a thing of the past. Amazon realized this over a decade ago and altered their business model.
I love my FLGS because they have the same type of atmosphere there. It is owned and staffed by people who love gaming/comic books, and have developed an extremely loyal customer base by understanding that if they provide tables and space for gamers to hang out and game, then those gamers will make purchases at that store. They don't need to come up with some kind of system to ensure that every customer pay for a table, or purchase more than a snack at every visit. If they did those sorts of things, they likely would not have the customer base that they do, and may have went the way of the buffalo, just like so many other shops I've seen come and go.
I also fail to see what this has to do with the debate over using papar models. I wouldn't play somebody using 2d models, because 2d models don't allow for true line of sight. Would I play against 3d paper models? Yeah, but I wouldn't want to all of the time.
43848
Post by: nectarprime
dripwelquest wrote:nkelsch wrote:
But now we are talking about being a rude entitled consumer VS being a loitering criminal. You won't be thrown out of a restaurant for not tipping 20% but you are probably going to be seen as human scum by a large number of people if you don't. Personally, I won't eat out with people who don't tip 20% and I will explicitly tell those people, even friends they shouldn't have eaten out if they couldn't afford to tip.
Barnes and Noble, just like Borders is going out of business because people do loiter, damage books and buy nothing. They do and should be yelled at, instead they usually get workers pestering them with 'can I help you find what you are looking for' over and over to make it clear they should buy something or get out.
Ideally, the gamers show enough respect and social skills to not require game owners to put in rigid requirements... the same way restaurants don't have forced gratuity or limits on how long you can occupy a table... Then again... entitled selfish people often become and issue and establishments need to put in rules to protect themselves and other customers from the rude people who don't understand basic social etiquette or economics. In FLGS that is sometimes pay to play, or requiring a purchase of 10$ or more... Ideally, stores never need to get to that because most people are respectful and support the store, and those who don't should be pointed out by their peers and ridiculed until they never want to return. i think that is fairly common as most people identify who the freeloaders are and make them feel unwelcome as they should be. The store owner doesn't have to do anything.
If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that.
I also have a pet peeve with people who take up tables for extended time without purchasing food at restaurants. They harm waiters tips and prevent paying customers from getting served because they want to sit on the outdoor patio at this nice area for 5 hours with their laptop and get endless diet cokes and bread. We have a local restaurant with this issue and now they have limits of sitting time outside. A few weeks ago, the table next to us was informed they had to leave after 2hours after not ordering anything but soda and an appetizer and they got all upset because they wanted to save this table for a band later int he common area. I told the manager I appreciated them throwing the non-customers out who gave the waiter a 2$ tip for monopolizing his table for 2 hours... good riddance...
Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.
I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.
20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.
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Post by: darkPrince010
nkelsch wrote:If you are really dense enough not to know what level of purchasing is real support and what actions like buying a snickers bar and playing with a whole army of 2D paper models for 6 hours... then there is no hope and no ammount of 'hard rule' of store support will ever please you... good riddance to non-customers like that. That really wasn't necessary... Meanie! I understand that you dislike people feeling entitled to stuff without paying, and I agree: Store resources should only be for paying customers. However... You still haven't stated what you think would be a fair price or sum total of stuff bought to be a "valuable and/or paying customer." Therin lies the problem: If I go to FLGS A, and am allowed to use their tables for several hours in exchange for buying a candy bar or a pack of MtG, and then go to FLGS B and am shunned/kicked out for doing the same, how was I (assuming I've never gone to the more expensive store before) suppossed to know the minimal purchase. Moreover, what incentive would I have to go to the more expensive store and risk being treated like a pariah again if I incorrectly guess the minimal purchase amount? If problems like this bug you so much, then if you are a store owner, be sure to make you minimum purchase/maximum time rules clear to everyone coming in. Unlcear, vague, or implied social rules are just that: Social. Depending on your background, you could have a 180 degree different set of social rules and expectations than someone else, but you can't jump down their throats for not knowing your personal set of ideals. I can guarantee you that regardless of what I wanted to purchase or how much I'd liked the store, if I was randomly approached and told to leave because of insufficient purchases, with no forewarning, that store would never see me darken their threshold again, and I'd actively reccomend my friends against it. If you gave me fair warning as I came in, or had posted rules along the same lines, I'd know my error and probably visit again, purchasing as per the rules. If you simply gave me the stink-eye everytime I wasn't carrying merchandise in my hands to the checkout line, I'd probably find every way I could to warn my acquaintances against shopping there. Slight anecdote: We have a LGS that has a bit of an issue with this, assuming everyone who isn't carrying merchandise or participating in a MtG tournament (They also have Warhammer, Malifaux, WM/H, etc.) is probably going to steal stuff, and they come over and are very rude to you. As a result, my entire local club of 30+ hardcore gamers have dropped the store and used the only other store in the area instead, actively reccomending any gamers we encounter against this store (We're from a pair of nearby small towns, so we represent probably 1/4 or so of the entire gaming population for the nearest 60 miles). These same gamers would have bought thousands of dollars of merchandise, but thanks to a store owner's poor behavior towards potential customers, the only people they have in the store anymore are a half-dozen elementary school kids playing MtG and Yu-Gi-Oh once a week... /End Anecdote EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.
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Post by: nkelsch
nectarprime wrote:
Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.
I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.
20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.
You do know in many states that waiters work for only Tips and have no wages... and usually 10% of the total of the checks have to be paid out of the waiters pocket to the manager, the bartender and busboy... Poor tips can not only deny someone a living wage but often end up for them to pay out of pocket for them serving you.
If you can't afford 20%, you shouldn't be going out to eat. Giving a tip for poor service or quality is one thing, but have the balls to make a remark to the manager opposed to simply leaving a low tip and sneaking out before you make eye contact with your waiter. Maybe you don't have many friends who know about the service industry or are just somewhat cheap individuals... If I leave 15%, the manager has a right to know why you were dissatisfied. Anything less than 15% denies a living wage for many people like the busboy and since I am not big on slavery I would rather tip correctly and vocalize my complaints opposed to be stingy on a tip without saying a word.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/HeresATip20PercentIsTheNew15Percent.aspx
I would love for Tips to be actual tips, but in the US they are not. They are living wage for people and are designed to be paid regardless of service quality. Some states have changed that guaranteeing all employees minimum wage... my region is not one of those states... so it is 20% or you are harming innocent people.
EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.
Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. If you believe a TIP is for quality service, you would be wrong in the US. In Europe it is... in the US it is not. If you can't understand how the US wait staff financials work in your region and your minimum wage laws, you shouldn't be eating out. You should be smart enough to know how tipping actually works and who it impacts... bad service is no excuse for denying someone a living wage or harming other parties who provide a service you do not see like busboys.
If you know how US tipping works in relation to wages and still choose to stiff people, that is pretty horrible... If it is out of ignorance, then go google it and figure out your local wait staff minimum wage laws.
This is the same type of inconsiderate behavior which has people thinking buying a snickers bar supports the store the same way they think Tips are 'rewards for good service' when they simply are not that way in the US.
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Post by: nectarprime
nkelsch wrote:
words
You seem to have an attitude problem. You should learn how to have a discussion with people as opposed to being accusatory and coming off as rude, which is what you are currently doing.
I was going to type a longer response but I won't bother. Welcome to my ignore list sir!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote:Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.
Uh....
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Post by: darkPrince010
I give a "living wage" to people who earn it. I wouldn't pay a painter the full amount if they painted only one side of my house and then slept the rest of the day away. Likewise, if my waiter gets me my drinks and then disappears for the next 45 minutes (excluding extenuating circumstances like a huge crowd or something), they have not done their job in my eyes and do not deserve a tip.
Besides, in my area (Washington State) wait staff are required to be paid minimum wage, and tips are extra on top of that. I'm sorry that's not the case in your area, and I agree it's not right, but in my area it's perfectly acceptable to use a tip as a carrot for good waiter behavior.
This is getting ridiculously OT though. Someone, anyone, please comment on the paper vs. plastic debate!
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Post by: nkelsch
nectarprime wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
nkelsch wrote:Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery.
Uh....
Sticking your head in the sand and refusing to accept the wage laws for wait staff int he US doesn't make it not true. There is a reason New York City is forcing 18% mandatory gratuity on all checks in a large number of restaurants now because of the international crowd who doesn't understand the difference between European gratuity and US minimum wage laws. I can excuse Europeans who misunderstand, but Americans should have the capacity to fully understand how wages work in their state.
And it is not the 1970s... 15% is now considered minimal tip for poor service and 20% is average service.
This is why I am never surprised when people can't understand how they are not supporting their FLGS... these people can't even handle tipping at restaurants let alone being a respectful customer at their FLGS.
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Post by: darkPrince010
nkelsch wrote:Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. "That's right, forty lashes and a 5% tip for spilling my drink on my lap and ignoring me for half an hour!" EDIT: nkelsch wrote:I can excuse Europeans who misunderstand, but Americans should have the capacity to fully understand how wages work in their state. "Waiters, on average, fail to report at least 40% of their tips according to the IRS." -From a 2002 IRS bulletin. Last I understood, the way wages work, you have to pay taxes on them...
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Post by: AustonT
You linked an article wherein the only logic for tipping 20% was lazy math, bravo.
Tips are gratuity, to use the proper term. And are a gift based on how I feel my server has done. The fact that in most states tipped employees are paid a specific minimum wage well below the federal minimum wage doesn't sway me a bit. gakky service does not deserve my graciousness, my wife and I tip 15% for average service, 10 for sub par service, 20 for good service and as much as we want to especially engaging servers who really make our night. One particular waitress that treated my wife with extreme disrespect didn't receive her 5% tip entirely in pennies only because my wife wouldn't let me have her coin rolls. Her manager also earned a bent ear. This entire subject of gratuity is off the original topic but because of your vitriol and general disagreeable nature it's worth pointing out that you are patently incorrect. Tipping is not mandatory. It's not about being cheap, it's about an expectation of service.
It is at least encouraging that your world is surrounded on all sides by reality, and your skewed opinion extends beyond wargaming and it's establishments.
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Post by: mullet_steve
nkelsch wrote:nectarprime wrote:
Wow, what a horrible person you are. I'm literally disgusted with your narrow minded sanctimonious garbage and poor grasp of basic social etiquette and economics. I can't but feel sorry for you and how painful it must be.
I wouldn't say it in such harsh words, but I'm inclined to agree.
20% minimum? Even if the service sucks and your food is cold? 15% is the norm for everyone I have ever met, and that's for EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD service.
You do know in many states that waiters work for only Tips and have no wages... and usually 10% of the total of the checks have to be paid out of the waiters pocket to the manager, the bartender and busboy... Poor tips can not only deny someone a living wage but often end up for them to pay out of pocket for them serving you.
If you can't afford 20%, you shouldn't be going out to eat. Giving a tip for poor service or quality is one thing, but have the balls to make a remark to the manager opposed to simply leaving a low tip and sneaking out before you make eye contact with your waiter. Maybe you don't have many friends who know about the service industry or are just somewhat cheap individuals... If I leave 15%, the manager has a right to know why you were dissatisfied. Anything less than 15% denies a living wage for many people like the busboy and since I am not big on slavery I would rather tip correctly and vocalize my complaints opposed to be stingy on a tip without saying a word.
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/SavingandDebt/SaveMoney/HeresATip20PercentIsTheNew15Percent.aspx
I would love for Tips to be actual tips, but in the US they are not. They are living wage for people and are designed to be paid regardless of service quality. Some states have changed that guaranteeing all employees minimum wage... my region is not one of those states... so it is 20% or you are harming innocent people.
EDIT: On tips: I give 20% only if I have $$$ burning holes in my trousers or if the waiter was one of those amazing ones you get when the planets align just right. Otherwise, they get 15%, less for crap service and none if they were really poor.
Wow... Stiffing a tip is tantamount to stealing in the US and promoting slavery. If you believe a TIP is for quality service, you would be wrong in the US. In Europe it is... in the US it is not. If you can't understand how the US wait staff financials work in your region and your minimum wage laws, you shouldn't be eating out. You should be smart enough to know how tipping actually works and who it impacts... bad service is no excuse for denying someone a living wage or harming other parties who provide a service you do not see like busboys.
If you know how US tipping works in relation to wages and still choose to stiff people, that is pretty horrible... If it is out of ignorance, then go google it and figure out your local wait staff minimum wage laws.
This is the same type of inconsiderate behavior which has people thinking buying a snickers bar supports the store the same way they think Tips are 'rewards for good service' when they simply are not that way in the US.
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service. Automatically Appended Next Post: So Paper it's so great or rubbish whichever train of thought will get this back on topic
ON TOPIC!!!!!
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Post by: AustonT
On 2d models: still useful for playtesting. I didn't even know what vassal was until last week, and now I have to find where it's hiding. For TLOS you turn the model so it's facing the model you are measuring from. If it's a vehicle it should be a 3d model anyways, there's no wiggle room for armor facing, cover, etc.
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Post by: Platuan4th
mullet_steve wrote: this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service. REALLY?! So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live? You honestly think that will change things?
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Post by: darkPrince010
Lol. That brings to mind a 2D rhino: "What do you mean all you can see is a line?"
I personally have a ~3K point Tyranid army made from OneMonk's Chimera Brood (Before he started charging for pdfs again). They work great, and although I rarely use them anymore, I'm glad I used them instead of plastic models because otherwise I would have learned the hard way that Venom Cannon Carnifexes, loads of Tyranid Warriors, Pyrovores in a drop pod, and a Mawloc does not make for an effective army...
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Post by: mullet_steve
Platuan4th wrote:mullet_steve wrote:
this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service.
REALLY?!
So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live?
You honestly think that will change things?
Yes. If no one can afford to live working as a waitress they won't be waitresses and the resturaunts will be forced to hire new staff at better wages. Go to resturants that pay decent wages. Ask before you eat what the staff get paid?
So yes I think that refusing to spend your money at resturants that underpay their staff would eventualy change things
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
mullet_steve wrote:Platuan4th wrote:mullet_steve wrote: this is all very off topic however has it occoured to you Americans that by gratefully accepting the fact that waiting staff at resturaunts earn such piffling wages that you HAVE to tip your just giving your silent support to the resturaunt owners that underpay their staff. Refuse to tip untill the witing staff earn a decent wage. Tipping is optional and should be reserved for exceptional service. REALLY?! So to force businesses to raise wages, we should withhold tips and cause the wait staff to be unable to afford to live? You honestly think that will change things? Yes. If no one can afford to live working as a waitress they won't be waitresses and the resturaunts will be forced to hire new staff at better wages. Go to resturants that pay decent wages. Ask before you eat what the staff get paid? So yes I think that refusing to spend your money at resturants that underpay their staff would eventualy change things
But then the restaurants will have to raise their menu prices which will turn people away. Sounds like a suicide mission. I worked at Applebee's for 3 years. The waiters/waitresses get paid a little over a dollar an hour. TIP YOUR  SERVER. You can choose to go to a restaurant that doesn't have servers, but if you are being waited on, then you should be tipping. What does this have to do about paper vs plastic, anyways?
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Post by: AustonT
Umm Im just going to throw this at you Coldfire you take it how you want. Are you sure? CA requires all employees be paid the state minimum wage and that all gratuity is the sole property of the employee and cannot be used directly or indirectly as credit towards the mandated cash wage.
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
Well, this was in South Carolina, and apparently minimum wage doesn't apply to waiters around there because I asked about it on several occassions. I'm sure I can dig up some past wage statements where I was getting paid $2 an hour. I'm not just sure, I'm 100% positive. I lived it.
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Post by: Platuan4th
Min wage doesn't apply to wait staff in many(if not all) states, as they supplement their wages with tips. So it's ignorant to blame the business when it's the law that determines it.
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
What Platuan4th said.
It was actually quite comical when I got a dollar raise all the way up to $3/hr.
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Post by: ChainswordHeretic
It's the same in Wisconsin. Wait staff does not have to be paid minimum wage. When I was a manager are staff was paid $2.25 per hour.
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Post by: nkelsch
Lt. Coldfire wrote:Well, this was in South Carolina, and apparently minimum wage doesn't apply to waiters around there because I asked about it on several occassions. I'm sure I can dig up some past wage statements where I was getting paid $2 an hour. I'm not just sure, I'm 100% positive. I lived it.
California is one of the few states with full minimum wage for servers... It very much is a local and state issue which is why it is on my 'list' of things when I contact my local elected officials every election cycle. I would have no issue with Cali people having different stances on tipping, especially if they are informed positions.
And it isn't the restaurant's fault necessarily since it is part of the tax law. The restaurants don't have a choice in the matter as the laws of the state require the wage to be lower with the expectation of the tips providing the rest. They actually get taxed on the tips whether they make them or not. It is not terribly uncommon for some people on a slow night to actually have to pay the restaurant or the government out of their own pocket to cover taxes for tipwages they didn't even earn and go home with no paycheck for the night.
Now personally, I don't agree with the practice and I personally would welcome higher food prices... but I also understand economically, many businesses could be harmed and people out of jobs with a drastic change in the laws. So while I can push for change, in the meanwhile in order to not harm the innocent, If I go out to eat, I have to tip. Refusing to tip all together is wrong... Refusing to eat at restaurants is the correct way to show disapproval... Continuing to eat out, getting your service and cutting back nothing and then refusing to tip is terrible! It is like ending animal cruelty by killing all the pets.. at least no animals will be abused anymore! I support the waiters by paint the high tips in my area because how wages work and also get involved in my local discussion on how such law changes will help/hurt wait staff and businesses.
Right now, the system relies on social conscience and etiquette, and *MOST* people follow it so it works. This is the same situation with FLGS... FLGS work because of a social conscience and etiquette most people intrinsically have when they support the local store. And just like restaurant tipping, there is a percentage of the population who through ignorance or just not caring, break these social norms and harm the establishments they frequent. Most people I think would rather have unfunded play at FLGS with the expectation that we are adults and support the store the best we can. Personally, I feel actions like 100% internet shopping, paper/cokecan proxies, counterfeiting minis and illegally downloading publications are all actions that harm and disrespect the FLGS... If most people respect and support the store, a mandatory gaming fee or rigid rules are unnecessary, the same way changing minimum wage is unnecessary if people tip correctly.
I don't think using an entire 2D paper proxy army is respectful of a store owner and his free gaming space he provides. I think it is fine for playtesting or limited use, usually done at home or in club night, but when you game in a store you are not only using up his space and rent but also you are promoting sales by showing the hobby at its best. I have been told that sales drastically increase on days where events require painted models as parents get a better feeling when they see a hobby that will drive lil JR to sit down and do something worthwhile like paint opposed to 300$ for instant gratification video game bard game. I think there is a valid reason that painted events take weekend primetime and unpainted general play is often weeknights with low street traffic. I only use painted models out of respect for the store owners and more than once I have been thanked for it. I also feel these paper models in no way deserve any part of 'equal gaming rights' and should totally be disallowed from well-run events and all tourneys. I do not buy the whole 'hardcore gamer' premise of the OP.
If your FLGS allows 2Dpaper model standinds, good for you... I feel it is disrespectful because the owner makes money off selling models, not watching you play with 2D paper armies and snickers bars. This is before the considering the general attitude of gamers which is probably going to find lots of hobbiests who would not be happy with being forced to play against it.
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Post by: AustonT
I only know about CA because a friend moved from AZ to there. AZs tip rate is like 3.25 I think, she was pleasantly surprised because she asked the parent company to transfer her, so she didn't even have to apply for a new job.
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
@nkelsch You wrote too much than I care to read on this subject, but I did get to the second paragraph--I do recall some servers actually owing money for the night. I was going to mention it initially but I wasn't sure anyone would believe it.
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Post by: Ouze
If we wish to discuss tipping etiquette, perhaps a new thread could be started.
To the OP, lets see these paper proxies. I'm not sue how this discussion can continue intelligently until that happens. Rule of Cool and all.
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Post by: malfred
leemie0704 wrote:http://www.yourmovegames.com/battleground_index.html
this game uses 2d units and plays similar to fantasy. To be honest if GW came out with 2d cards like this where you could cross off members of the unit as they died I think more people would play fantasy. It would allow people to try the game before buying models and proxy units in an official way. This would result in more opponents which is good and starting the game wouldn't be as large of an investment. I only think this would work for fantasy smoothly though because of ranking up. I suppose you could use it for 40k too but it would be more difficult.
How is that game anyway? You can pm me with the answer if you don'
t want to derail the conversation...
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Post by: Platuan4th
malfred wrote: if you don' t want to derail the conversation... Bit late for that, don't you think?
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Post by: darkPrince010
I'll post my paper Nids as an example for 2D (ish) models, just as soon as I can figure out how to get data from an SD card onto a computer without an SD card slot... :/
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Post by: Ouze
darkPrince010 wrote:I'll post my paper Nids as an example for 2D (ish) models, just as soon as I can figure out how to get data from an SD card onto a computer without an SD card slot... :/
I use one of these.
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Post by: darkPrince010
I need to get me one of those. For the time being however, I borrowed my fiance's camera which doesn't have a non-standard USB port and added the pics:  Closeup of my mawloc, hive tyrant, and a couple warriors  Overview of the swarm. It's a comfortable 2K points, and can be stretched to 3K in a pinch. (Sorry for gakky flash)  Closeup of the zoanthropes and venomthropes (foreground) and carnifexes (background, stupidly armed with venom cannons...  ) More pics of the army are in my gallery. Overall, I'm proud of my models. They don't hold a candle to fully painted plastics, but they look ( imo, biased of course) far better than flat greys/black primer armies. While I'd fully understand someone with a painted army not wanting to play this, I definitely raise my eyebrows at the occasional "They look like crap" coming from one or two guys at my FLGS, who incidentally only have half-painted and/or unpainted "This flamer is really a lascannon" proxy armies... I strongly recommend something like this for people who (like me up until very recently when I got an incredible deal on a full Tau army) are unable to afford the official models. While you won't enter any official tourneys with them, and you may receive some flak for them from the diehards, most of the people I've played with are happy that I have an army that is both painted (Or at least not monochromatic) and WYSIWYG, and I've had several fun games with them (Losing all but one of them iirc  ) ). I fully agree that something like this may not be incredibly appealing to passer-bys as compared to a fully painted official plastics army, but I'd bet that a colorful army, even if made out of paper, would attract more attention than unpainted or single-primer plastic armies would if played in the front window. After they enter the store, the store owner could easily direct them to the model ranges (Which, thanks to the beautifully painted pictures on the boxes, would be more enticing than plain paper models).
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Post by: Ouze
Those models are much nicer looking then I had expected. I'd have no problem playing against them.
However, were I a store owner, I'd probably let you use them while you build up a "real" army out of product, preferably bought from me, or for testing out a new army first to try something out. Again, I would retain an exception for Drop Pods, which suck.
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Post by: Vermillion
Ouze wrote:Those models are much nicer looking then I had expected. I'd have no problem playing against them.
However, were I a store owner, I'd probably let you use them while you build up a "real" army out of product, preferably bought from me, or for testing out a new army first to try something out. Again, I would retain an exception for Drop Pods, which suck.
Agreed, they look nice. Scratch built drop pod from foam looking like something tyranids would use, again, no problem with them.
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Post by: mullet_steve
whilst I appreciate the effort darkprince010 has gone to with his card/paper army I would agree that for use in a gaming store I would only allow it whilst a prpoer army was being built. If there is no army with physical models (scratch built or standard) I would have to stop them being used I'm afraid.
I mean any progress even if it's one model a month or something..
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Post by: mrwhoop
Ah geez, my initial reaction was "Burn it with fire!" But I'm not sure whether it was because they're paper or they're tyranids...
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Post by: njpc
The paper card army above shows effort. However, I'd still agree with all assessments above. It would be fair to use it in a shop while you work to build your plastic/metal army. That way you can learn the ropes and stay involved.
For tournment / competitive play you would likely not be allowed to enter. I would hope if people pursued card armies, they would also pursue the effort it appears you have taken with yours. However, I stand doubtful that would happen. Still i'd happily play against that in a pick up game.
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Post by: spaceelf
I'm lovin those paper nids. They are so much better than the models that are assembled and painted by GWs target market. I would encourage newbs to use paper. They could then buy a real model or two. If they take to hobbying and painting then they could buy a real army. If not, stick with paper.
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Post by: nectarprime
Wow, I am shocked at how good those Tyranids look!
Still waiting on OP to post his titans :/
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Post by: nkelsch
Not a fan of those paper models... Would be ok for club night but not appropriate for most general play. I would not want to play against them.
And while I would not want to play against proxy greys either... at least the store owner got his pound of flesh from those models... so it is only disrespect opponents, not the venue.
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Post by: darkPrince010
I did make my army so I'd be able to play while accumulating a real army, and while I still like building and using non- GW models, I at least have one full all- GW-models army to use in case of someone who refuses to play against any unpure models...
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
Well those paper nids look a lot better than I could've imagined, but I still wouldn't fancy playing them. They would, however, make a hilarious lender army.
"No army, bro? No worries, here's some paper bugs."
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Post by: Boss GreenNutz
They look good but I wonder. Does Best Buy or whoever you bought the printer from let you game there or does your LGS charge you to game since you are not helping him stay in business by buying product from him?
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Post by: Lt. Coldfire
Gaming in Best Buy would truly be epic.
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Post by: darkPrince010
I have only ever used them in my local gaming club (For which I pay a monthly fee for tables). Also, slight side note, never buy an Epson printer: This army went through probably 4 sets of ink cartridges by the end, along with a great deal of frustration and gnashing of teeth due to superglued-together fingers. Epson printers won't print anything if they run out of a single color, not even B/W, and when you replace a cartridge, it "charges" all the cartridges, draining the rest further. This whole army cost me ~$5 for the paper, ~$10 for the glue, and ~$60 for the damn ink cartridges. HP doesn't pull these shenanigans, and better yet, neither does my new laser printer /End Rant Our FLGS actually has only a single table, which as far as I've ever seen only has a demo/display table. I've never seen anyone actually play on the table (Especially since iirc it's 3 or 4 foot square), and I rarely buy GW products since he way overprices them (The other model supplies and toy/game section does see my occasional dollar however).
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Post by: Ouze
darkPrince010 wrote:I have only ever used them in my local gaming club (For which I pay a monthly fee for tables).
If I'm paying a monthly fee, I expect to be able to play with soda caps and pennies so far as the store owner goes. So we're back down to your opponents, who seem good with it.
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Post by: CageUF
Ouze wrote:DreamWeaver wrote:
1. Introduced friend to 40k couple months ago.
2. Since then he was fired.
3. He is now unemployed and currently searching for job.
4. He can't afford full SM army so he uses some 2d image standees.
5. Local players/gw lackeys at game shop refuse to play him.
6. ...
Well, this seems less like an attempt at having a conversation and more an attempt at starting a flamewar, but I guess I enjoy either one, so why not.
There are 2 sets of guidelines here, with a single exception.
A.) If you're like actual, real-life friend, I don't care what you use for models so long as I can tell what they are and they are consistent (and more or less appropriately sized). I'd prefer not to be assaulted by a Coke can Carnifex, but you're my friend and I like hanging out with you, so whatever.
B.) If you're Little Johnny Nobody, then I spent a lot of time and money and effort getting my army done, and I'd like to play with someone with similar ambitions. So, I don't care if they're only basecoated plastic models, if they're a work in progress and you're working to eventually have a nice, well done army. But you can GTFO with your coke can carnifex. Saying waaagh, I'm too poor and the " GW lackeys" won't play with me is like complaining the Yacht Club is excluding you and your canoe because you can't afford a yacht. That's the game, brah. Go play something else if you don't want to play it.
At the end of the day I almost never get to play against actual people, and so I while I wouldn't refuse a game against Cardboard Cutout guy, per se, but he'd certainly be my last choice of opponent should I be so blessed as to have a choice of adversaries.
Single Exception: Drop Pods. These models suck, are expensive, and do nearly nothing. No matter who you are, I'm not complaining about plastic cup drop pods. I built and painted a single drop pod and hated it the whole time. Your peanut butter jar drop pod is OK with me, but at least paint it or something and don't break my immersion.
+1
On a side note, this is one of the reasons I have 7 armies... New to the game? Don't know exactly what you want to play? Here... try a few out, you can borrow an army.
My FLGS keeps 3 armies of ~1500pts chilling at the store for the same reason. It boils down to 40k players have enough to keep track of in a normal game, let alone walking a new player through the rounds with his paper army.
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Post by: swollendeathray
darkPrince010 I just wanted to say that your papercraft army looks amazing. Did you design the units yourself or did you find a template online?
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Post by: Eilif
swollendeathray wrote:darkPrince010 I just wanted to say that your papercraft army looks amazing. Did you design the units yourself or did you find a template online?
I'm pretty sure they are the "One Monk Miniatures" Chimera Brood.
http://onemonk.com/
He's been redoing the website, so not all have been updated and rereleased , but the Basic Chimerra Brood figs are still for sale ($4 PDF) and a few of the other variants are in the free "Forum Horde" sections.
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Post by: swollendeathray
Thanks for the link. I think I'm going have to give this a shot.
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Post by: warspawned
I'm kind of liking the whole paper terrain/model aesthetic at the moment - it'll never be as good as proper miniatures, but if you're on a budget (a very small one) it's a way to go about getting proxies that are better looking than simple paper cut outs with 'gribbly' written on and better than using substitutes (guard for nids etc). It's like playing in cartoon-world - which I think (if done well enough) has its own charm. I'd have nothing against someone who wanted to use an army like that above - I just can't take my gaming seriously enough to be bothered by it *shrugs*
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Post by: AustonT
Played 40k in the desert for a year with paper cutouts of shapes from MS paint of approximately the right size. It only make you want your models more.
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Post by: darkPrince010
Wow. I hadn't been on the onemonk site in a while, and he's really hamstrung his available stuff. Anyhow, for anyone who's interested, I used this guy for my carnifexes and hive tyrant: http://www.onemonk.com/onemonkAssets/hoardFiles/hoard16.zip iirc, these guys for the raveners and thrope tails (I only used the lower torso of the bigger unit) http://www.onemonk.com/onemonkAssets/hoardFiles/hoard8.zip (For people wary of directly downloading the .zip, they can be found under the site's "Forum Hoards") and these guys for genestealers: http://www.onemonk.com/chimera-brood He also had bug-winged flying units (Didn't love gargoyles enough to jump through the hoops to assemble those models), the warriors, and a set of alternative weapons in the different color schemes. I personally like the dark blue/black color, but they didn't have the carnifex in anything but lime green/purple, so ah well For anyone who's not sold on the units but is interested in terrain, I can't reccomend World Works Games ( http://www.worldworksgames.com/store/) enough. I own very little of their stuff, mainly because I know I don't have the time to assemble them and I no longer have a color printer, but I plan on buying their clip-together city sets (Here's an example of the sewers: http://www.worldworksgames.com/store/index.php?view=product&product=164) and make some amazing multi-level wargame scenarios one day... EDIT: All of the major paper model/terrain makers I've seen include files to allow anyone lucky enough to own a robo-cutter to use that with their sets, and if you have the remotest chance of fanagling one of those from someone, DO IT! I can't emphasize enough how much time, effort, and pain it'll save you. The other tip I strongly reccomend is going over all the white edges with a black sharpie. It takes forever, but really helps the models not look like anywhere near as crappy.
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Post by: Solorg
Oragami 40K!
When I first started playing WHF I made some "Skeletons" out of cardboard. They were just plain old tiles with the word "Skeleton" written on them. It seemed like an OK idea, because back in the day, lots of games used counters for models - including a D&D Mass Battles game (I forget the actual name) which had like a billion punch-out little chits that represented monsters for the mass battle.
Heck, Wizards of the Coast has returned to this way of thinking with its recent "Monster Vault" products and discontinuation of D&D Minis.
That said, my 20mm base-sized chits with "Skeleton" written on them, if I may say so, looked Mighty Lame compared to my opponents' nicely painted 3D models of charging cavalry, furious dragons, and rampaging warriors.
My opponents let me play because I was young and poor. And generously, I was given real models from each person in the group when Xmas came around.
40K is, more than anything, a visual game as many wargaming simulations are. This is in contrast to RPGs which are mostly about imagination and where the best action happens in your head.
So can you play with paper? Sure you can. But it is like watching Avatar on a 20-inch black-and-white television.
That's how I see it. Would I play against paper? Out of respect to those who humored me all those years ago, I believe I would. Maybe I'd even be generous enough to buy a box of models for that friend for his next birthday or holiday, too.
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Post by: Eilif
As an asside, I recieved notice of this in my email today.
More paper mech designs for "Mech Attack" a really fun fast-playing mech game with a nice unit building mechanic for mechs vehicles and infnatry.
http://www.wargamevault.com/product_info.php?cPath=5431&products_id=79303
I love the game and play it with rebased Mechwarrior minis, but the models are nice as 2.5d figs go.
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Post by: frozen4life
wow i hven't really thought about this. well i'm not a gamer. but just a builder.
but wouldn't people not like to play people with paperhammer because of the money and effort they put it?
it's like "i had to save up money to get a rhino, but you simply printed one out..."
or maybe imagine playing pokemon cards or yugioh cards.
you went through all that trouble to get a strong card. money time effort
and some dude just prints one out. it kinda doesn't seem fair.
i'm just imagining how i would feel. i don't play pokemon or yugioh LOLOLOL
but it's still kinda messed up that warhammer is for people with money.
well it's just my opinion. i built a drop pod out of paper and it was really fun. i don't know why people think it's useless. but i wouldn't know i don't play the game
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Post by: darkPrince010
I agree, and if Warhammer was as affordable as something like Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokemon, or MtG, I'd be much more understanding when someone got mad at someone else for bringing a meh-quality papercraft army.
Problem is, we're all acutely aware that Warhammer of either flavor isn't cheap, and I feel like it's discriminating against people with less income. I had people at my FLGS bug the gak out of me for my proxy stuff (Including the paper nids, which imo are acceptable-quality papercraft models. Not amazing by any means, but on par with a three-color-for-tournament army) until I finally bought some Tau, and considering I didn't have the income to justify purchasing full-price Warhammer for a long time, I thought that their behavior was fairly dickish.
I understand that playing MtG against someone with a bunch of printed cards might be annoying, but is it more dickish to use printed cards to try a particular new card or combination, or to say "feth you" and not let them use those cards/combos until they buy all enough booster packs to finally get the card or buy it at a 300% markup online?
I realize it's annoying to play someone Warhammer if they only ever use proxies and they've been playing for 10+ years and make $60K/year, but for someone just getting into the hobby or getting into a new army, I'd say it'd be more dickish to force them to buy the expensive official models for units which may actually be worthless or inefficient. This is a big issue with Warhammer, since to a new player, lots of models look cool but actually suck on the tabletop (Chaos Spawn and the Space Pope come to mind immediately, and to a lesser extent models/units that are very hard for a new player to use properly like Blood Knights, most Wood Elf units iirc, etc.).
If someone can buy every new iteration of the iPhone but balks at shelling out $10 for a model instead of a using a penny, they're being suitably annoying and I agree that that would be annoying as hell and probably would start to be pissed at him. However, if they're saving for college tuition or trying to pay off their credit card, I'd be a complete dick if I told him "No, go away until you spend a bunch of money you don't have."
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Post by: Lorek
Ugh, thread necromancy.
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