Hi, Dakka! In your opinion, who is the most powerful of all the Primarchs. I would have to say Horus, because he literally killed the Emperor, and sent his corpse on the Golden Throne. And, if anyone disagrees with me, then another Heresy is coming.... So, what is your opinion?

Alpharius, because everything and anything you know is actually Alpharius in disguise.

How did Alpharius become so famous around Dakka? The Primarch, not the Mod.

I believe it is Horus. When you said powerful I did not think of PHYSICAL power, but power of being.

Horus is the most amiable, probably the most brilliant politician and a very good tactician. In this fashion he can recruit entire armies to fight his armies for him, making him powerful.

Because everyone is Alpharius, including you. You just don't know it yet.

Look at my signature. And, Campbell, I agree totally. Not only did Horus shred the Emperor to pieces, he also shredded his mind.

Solely, by themselves, with no backing from anyone else, I would have to say Magnus the Red.

Magnus the Red is pretty cool, being a Sorcerer of Tzeentch and all. I just think that he wasn't that great.....compared to Horus.

Horus only laid the Emperor low because he had the backing of all four Chaos Gods.

So if you count that, then obviously him.

Discounting that, Magnus the Red overall IMO, physically and martially powerful (Index Astartes says he rivals Russ in that regard, and he was shown to hold his own in A Thousand Sons against him), as well as being the most powerful psyker in the setting short of his father, capable of destroying Titans dwarfing Warlords and tearing apart the surface of Prospero with his power.

Wow, he seriously could do that. I take back what I said about him.

He's still not that great cvompared to Chaos Empowered Horus though, who was undeniably stronger than any other Primarch. So counting him is kinda cheating lol.

Coolyo294 wrote:Because everyone is Alpharius, including you. You just don't know it yet.

lol and there's a 90% chance your fighting an Alpha Legion Army. and the same odds you are playing them as well, no matter what armies on the table.

Magnus the Red. all they way.

Hm 4 votes for him in a few minutes...

I think that this should be more limited to Primarchs BEFORE they became daemon lords and such. And BTW,
The only reason that Horus defeated the Emperor is because he still loved Horus and didnt really want to kill him at first

Coolyo294 wrote:Alpharius, because everything and anything you know is actually Alpharius in disguise.

That doesnt really make you powerful, it just makes you deceptive.

My vote goes to Horus.

My vote goes to Magnus solely on the fact that he can augment his physical prowness with his psychic abilities...

On pure and brutal strength my vote would go to Angorn, he is one crazy kid...

From all the fluff I have read, I would say Horus or Roboute Guilliman

Horus rules! I really don't know about Guilliman...

Canonically, I think I remember reading somewhere that it's actually Sanguinius. For what it's worth.

Since you have Alpharius and Omegon together, they'd probably kill any other primarch. Angron could be distracted by one while the other shoots him in the head from three hundred yards. One could distract Magnus before the other stabs him. And all along, it's not even really them, because they're hypnotizing Tau into engaging in CC against Marines.

Kazerkinelite wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:Alpharius, because everything and anything you know is actually Alpharius in disguise.

That doesnt really make you powerful, it just makes you deceptive.

My vote goes to Horus.

Knowledge is power, guard it well.

In terms of strength? Angron.

In terms of Psychic abilities? Magnus.

In terms of wit? Alpharius/Omegron

"The most powerful" is a rather broad term. If you mean one who incomapses all of these facts then most likely Horus.

Iranna.

Im gonna go with Magnus the Red

guyperson5 wrote:From all the fluff I have read, I would say Horus or Roboute Guilliman

What fluff gave you the impression Rowboat Girlyman was even middle of the pack as far as Primarchs go? He's the genetically engineered perpetual dictator of Rome. Wait for the 15th of March and stick a dagger in his ribs, "et tu Rogal?"

Horus, followed by Guilliman and Sanguinius.

The most powerful primarch, again?, already?... ok.

Well, I'd argue against Horus. He might have been made the 'Warmaster', but he proved to be highly susceptible to Chaos.

And before the 'Horus almost killed the Emperor' diatribe starts, no, no HE didn't. Horus was infused with the power of all four Chaos gods and the Emperor allowed Horus to hurt him in order to answer the final question about Horus' loyalty and possibility of redemption. He had already lost several sons by that point.

The real inheritor of the Imperium may well have been Guilliman. Yeah, yeah, I know many think he's lame, boring and blue, but still...

Perhaps it was the Emperors will that he 'allowed' him to be so far away to isolate him from the further predations of Chaos. Perhaps the Emperor made Horus Warmaster to further protect Guilliman by enhancing Horus' apparent value to the imperium and therefore to the Chaos gods. The Emperor may have foreseen a crack in Horus and certain other primarchs. Especially after the events which contributed to the 'missing' two legions... whatever they might have been.

I think it is no coincidence that Guilliman had the largest Legion based in a defacto 'empire' of his own.

If you think about it, Guilliman is the most Emperor like Primarch to have existed. Which may contribute to many perceiving him to be a complete ass. We may well see more beneath Guilliman's facade where we are allowed to see his humanity as we had in a recent short story.

In addition, the exact same could be said about Alpharius even though Alpharius approached survival in an entirely different way. Despite the different personalities, Alpharius and Guilliman, as brothers often do, hated each other, but their hearts reside in the same place.

This, and all the other Primarchs seem petty, completely delusional, or both by way of comparison.

Probably Magnus the Red... That or Sanguinius, who Horus said SHOULD have been warmaster iirc.... But after the backing of the chaos gods Horus would have beat them all...

In addition, we don't know how sanguinius would have matched up with the chaos horus if he had been at full strength.

Horus is winning! And, Sanguinius is pretty awesome, almost as awesome as Horus.

Either or both of the unknown Primarches, because Mat Ward will probably write their fluff.

/obligatory Mat Ward reference.

I can't say, for the reason that there are still two Primarches we don't know anything about.

Of the Primarches we do know about, i'm going to say Mortarion, because he has Draigo's name carved into his heart and he still refuses to kill himself out of shame, and instead wears his badge with pride.

I'd like to see any other Primarch live with such a scar.

Okay, seriously this time, Kurze was pretty powerful, seeing as though he ultimately rejected the Chaos Gods, and presumably allowed himself to be assassinated because he knew the consequences of him living - None of the heretic Primarches have regretted their decision (Mortarion probably did the moment he finally recognised who his tattooist was) and have all served the Chaos Gods apart from Kurze, who was strong enough to break their hold over him, if only temporarily, and deprive them of a large asset.

Currently? Magnus or Lorgar. Magnus is the most powerful psyker beneath the Emperor, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Lorgar was a fairly sub-par Primarch that bucked up after Corax, turning into a badass, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Backed by all four Chaos Gods. That's more than any other Primarch, and he would likely only be beaten by Magnus. Truly though, any Daemon Primarch is a safe bet, aside from Mortarion, on who is the strongest.

Huh? Mortarion is awesome...

Iranna wrote:In terms of strength? Angron.

In terms of Psychic abilities? Magnus.

In terms of wit? Alpharius/Omegron

"The most powerful" is a rather broad term. If you mean one who incomapses all of these facts then most likely Horus.

Iranna.

Horus didn't actually have any demonstrated psychic abilities. Leman Russ has shown more psychic potential than Horus, ironically.

Also, technically, Vulkan and Ferrus Manus were physically stronger than Angron, though Angron was one of the most martially capable Primarchs. In a strictly melee fight, he'd beat most of them, though Corax believes that Horus and "maybe" Sanguinius could beat Angron.

@iproxtaco: Is it ever said that being a Daemon Prince of Chaos Undivided makes you stronger? I guess it would make some sense, but I've never seen it stated.

Without Chaos God support: Magnus, since he's got crazy psychic powers. None of the other Primarchs could really touch him; even Leman Russ, who has an anti-psychic built-in weapon, couldn't win in an even fight. Next in line would probably be Angron, just because his entire life was spent fighting. As in actual fighting, not just surviving in the wilderness and occasionally fighting wild animals. He also was rated one of the top fighters by Corax.

With Chaos God support: Horus, the near-equal of the Emperor.

iproxtaco wrote:Currently? Magnus or Lorgar. Magnus is the most powerful psyker beneath the Emperor, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Lorgar was a fairly sub-par Primarch that bucked up after Corax, turning into a badass, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Backed by all four Chaos Gods. That's more than any other Primarch, and he would likely only be beaten by Magnus. Truly though, any Daemon Primarch is a safe bet, aside from Mortarion, on who is the strongest.

What about Perturabo?

Molten Butter wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Currently? Magnus or Lorgar. Magnus is the most powerful psyker beneath the Emperor, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Lorgar was a fairly sub-par Primarch that bucked up after Corax, turning into a badass, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Backed by all four Chaos Gods. That's more than any other Primarch, and he would likely only be beaten by Magnus. Truly though, any Daemon Primarch is a safe bet, aside from Mortarion, on who is the strongest.

What about Perturabo?

What about him? He just sits in his fortress all the time and broods.

Coolyo294 wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Currently? Magnus or Lorgar. Magnus is the most powerful psyker beneath the Emperor, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Lorgar was a fairly sub-par Primarch that bucked up after Corax, turning into a badass, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Backed by all four Chaos Gods. That's more than any other Primarch, and he would likely only be beaten by Magnus. Truly though, any Daemon Primarch is a safe bet, aside from Mortarion, on who is the strongest.

What about Perturabo?

What about him? He just sits in his fortress all the time and broods.

I meant that he's in the same boat as Lorgar, since he's an undivided Daemon Prince.

Molten Butter wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Currently? Magnus or Lorgar. Magnus is the most powerful psyker beneath the Emperor, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Lorgar was a fairly sub-par Primarch that bucked up after Corax, turning into a badass, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Backed by all four Chaos Gods. That's more than any other Primarch, and he would likely only be beaten by Magnus. Truly though, any Daemon Primarch is a safe bet, aside from Mortarion, on who is the strongest.

What about Perturabo?

What about him? He just sits in his fortress all the time and broods.

I meant that he's in the same boat as Lorgar, since he's an undivided Daemon Prince.

Doesn't really matter if he is, if, as Coolyo294 said, he sits and broods. No point in how strong you are if you don't really fight...

So Perturabo never fights?

Alpharius disguised as Draigo.

Molten Butter wrote:

Coolyo294 wrote:

Molten Butter wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Currently? Magnus or Lorgar. Magnus is the most powerful psyker beneath the Emperor, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Lorgar was a fairly sub-par Primarch that bucked up after Corax, turning into a badass, and now he's a Daemon Prince. Backed by all four Chaos Gods. That's more than any other Primarch, and he would likely only be beaten by Magnus. Truly though, any Daemon Primarch is a safe bet, aside from Mortarion, on who is the strongest.

What about Perturabo?

What about him? He just sits in his fortress all the time and broods.

I meant that he's in the same boat as Lorgar, since he's an undivided Daemon Prince.

He's an undivided Daemon Prince, sure that's an achievement, and he's incredibly powerful. However, he just sits in his tower all the time. He never leaves, and the Iron Warrirors are noted for allying with whatever God proves most advantageous. Lorgar worships all four Gods at once, he's their favoured Primarch, actively pursuing their goals in the Warp and gaining his own power.

I dont actually think that Perturabo even opted for a cc battle, since his legion ,pre-heresy, were siege-makers and trench-fighters and pretty much were used for sieges that does not allow much cc. I think Perturabo is more of a strategist than a full-power monster when he is compared with other primarchs such as Sanguinus or Horus etc.

Why isn't Draigo on this list? Can't he beat up all the Primachs with his bear hands?

Horus could easily kill Draigo in a fight.

Sigmar.

Oh, alright, since I've just listened to Raven's Flight, Corax.

Is Corax powerful?

He has the advantage of occasionally approaching warfare from a modern perspective, which is quite an advantage when his fellow primarchs appear mainly to have learned their tactics from the Illiad.

I said Fulgrim.
Mostly because he killed EVERYONE.
Sorta.

Well, who is still Loyal, and still alive?

CpatTom wrote:Well, who is still Loyal, and still alive?

Guilliman is technically still alive, but he'd die the second he came out of his Stasis Bubble.

If Ward cant bring him back, no one can.

CpatTom wrote:Well, who is still Loyal, and still alive?

The Lion and Guilliman. Dorn, Sanguinus, and Ferrus Manus are pretty conclusively dead. Vulkan's status is unclear. Russ, Corax, and Khan all disappeared and therefore we can't be sure.

Ogryn wrote:Horus could easily kill Draigo in a fight.

How do you know? Draigo is undefeated. He makes Chuck Norris crap his pants.

Didn't Russ, Corax, and Khan all go into the Eye of Terror? And yeah, Vulkan is currently MIA.

Well that would be my basis for deciding who "is" the most powerful. Being dead limits a whole lot of stats. I think being loyal would be necessary too.

Now, go back to squabbling over who was the most powerful primarch. (which wasn't the question)

Fulgrim holds record so far for slapping primarchs up. Horus was harder after his after life experience.

Jaghatai Khan, Leman Russ, or Ferrus Manus, because no one said them yet.

But seriously, in a fist fight, and no Chaos Gods interfering, I'd have to say Ferrus, because his hands are kinda friggin' Necron metal.

Then again, I've recently read his fluff, and am hardcore fanboying over him as the only likeable Loyalist Primarch, if you exclude Vulkan and Sanguinius.

That being said, I want to know more about Jaghatai. He seems near-feral. I'd imagine he'd be a ridiculous fighter, and I'd probably vote him, if that was the case/anybody knew anything about him.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, if Alpharius and Omegon count as one Primarch, it's kinda obvious that no matter what, they'd win.

Well, he is after all, the Primarch of the Iron Hands...

Then again, I've recently read his fluff, and am hardcore fanboying over him as the only likeable Loyalist Primarch, if you exclude Vulkan and Sanguinius.

I lol-ed at this. Aramis is the only musketeer if you exclude Athos and Porthos. But I got what you were driving at. It's really no coincidence that the primarchs that could have made the Imperium a less grimdark organization died in the HH.

Leonus Cohol wrote:I said Fulgrim.
Mostly because he killed EVERYONE.
Sorta.

Even himself

Pilau Rice wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:I said Fulgrim.
Mostly because he killed EVERYONE.
Sorta.

Even himself

Burn

I wouldn't say Fulgrim killed anyone, more his Laeran sword did; without that daemon weapon, he wouldn't have turned, and wouldn't have been able to kill Ferrus, and by extension, Gulliman.

Leman Russ, if his legion was designed for for executing rogue Space Marine legions. One could conduct he was made to execute the Primarch.

Fulgrim and Horus get a honorable mentioning though.

Shadowbrand wrote:Leman Russ, if his legion was designed for for executing rogue Space Marine legions

Which they were not.

One could conduct he was made to execute the Primarch.

If his performances against Magnus and the Lion are anything to go by, it makes him a poor candidate for killing other Primarchs. It's been reasoned a few times now, he's average, joint with the Lion, outperformed by Kurze, Sanguinus, Corax, Magnus, Horus and Angron.

Fulgrim and Horus get a honorable mentioning though.

Well that's lovely.

I'm going with Alpharius and Omegon since it seems that they understand that all is fair in war including all underhand sneaky tricks. I find wit to be much more valuable than raw strength

Daemon swords don't kill people. I kill people.

He got beat by a single Grey Knight. It took 100 to beat Angron and his daemons. Which is 7.6 Terminators each.

100 Grey Knights? Angron could kill 'em all!

Ogryn wrote:100 Grey Knights? Angron could kill 'em all!

Well, he didn't. He lost that fight.

OT: I gotta go with Horus, followed by Sanguinius and Magnus.

Sanguinius vs. Horus was unfair, as beloved primarch (Sanguinius) wanst at full strength thanks to Ka'Bandha

thenoobbomb wrote:Sanguinius vs. Horus was unfair, as beloved primarch (Sanguinius) wanst at full strength thanks to Ka'Bandha

I agree, and willingly heading off to fight Horus after everything he had done on the surface was pretty boss. However, from all accounts Horus would still have had the advantage even without the chaos-empowerment.

Yep, the short story years back said that Sanguinuius never stood a chance not matter what. Horus gets my vote anyway.

Beastmaster wrote:I think that this should be more limited to Primarchs BEFORE they became daemon lords and such. And BTW,
The only reason that Horus defeated the Emperor is because he still loved Horus and didnt really want to kill him at first

Which is why he needed two Primarchs and himself to fight Horus? lol

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Beastmaster wrote:I think that this should be more limited to Primarchs BEFORE they became daemon lords and such. And BTW,
The only reason that Horus defeated the Emperor is because he still loved Horus and didnt really want to kill him at first

Which is why he needed two Primarchs and himself to fight Horus? lol

Where did you get this from? Sanguinius is the only one who fought Horus besides the Emperor and they were separate fights, its not as if Horus was fighting them both off at the same time. Regardless, the fluff goes that once the Emperor decided Horus was beyond saving, he completely annihilated him with a single attack.

define powerful

Ability to crush an opponent with an army?
Power and control over others at their height?
Hand to hand combat?
Resources and influence?
Most dangerous to cross?

I'm going to go with questions 2,4,5 and say the biggest Pappa Smurf, RG.

For the lion!, For the emperor!. Seriously he just wins, he spent his infancy fighting monsters on a death world.

Yes, because that's unusual for a primarch. Angron was in gladiator fights until the Emperor found his rebellion. And the Lion might have been powerful in combat, but he was also a whiny idiot with no understanding of people.

Orblivion wrote:

Ogryn wrote:100 Grey Knights? Angron could kill 'em all!

Well, he didn't. He lost that fight.

OT: I gotta go with Horus, followed by Sanguinius and Magnus.

Nope, they all died, he just got banished in the process. Win.

Lobukia wrote:define powerful

Ability to crush an opponent with an army?
Power and control over others at their height?
Hand to hand combat?
Resources and influence?
Most dangerous to cross?

I'm going to go with questions 2,4,5 and say the biggest Pappa Smurf, RG.

He's outclassed by Horus on all accounts.

Durza wrote:Yes, because that's unusual for a primarch. Angron was in gladiator fights until the Emperor found his rebellion. And the Lion might have been powerful in combat, but he was also a whiny idiot with no understanding of people.

Orblivion wrote:

Ogryn wrote:100 Grey Knights? Angron could kill 'em all!

Well, he didn't. He lost that fight.

OT: I gotta go with Horus, followed by Sanguinius and Magnus.

Nope, they all died, he just got banished in the process. Win.

There were survivors according to 5th edition GK codex.

Two. Against 12 Bloodthirsters and a Daemon Primarch that's not bad considering they were all banished in the end. Angron lost.

Lobukia wrote:define powerful

Ability to crush an opponent with an army?
Power and control over others at their height?
Hand to hand combat?
Resources and influence?
Most dangerous to cross?

I'm going to go with questions 2,4,5 and say the biggest Pappa Smurf, RG.

Fair points, and there's also the fact that his ideas continue to influence a huge number of Space Marines. I don't know about in a battle royal, but in terms of influence I'd say Guilliman was a contender.

Just for resources and influence, I'd have to say Horus still. While some Primarchs resented him having the title Warmaster Horus or someone loyal to him brought them onside, while others acknowledged he deserved the mantle. That kind of influence makes him the most powerful, and as was shown, most dangerous

Orblivion wrote:There were survivors according to 5th edition GK codex.

iproxtaco wrote:Two. Against 12 Bloodthirsters and a Daemon Primarch that's not bad considering they were all banished in the end. Angron lost.

At least ten survivors according to the Imperialis Armageddon. The 5E Codex mentions the war, but rather than go into the numbers Matt Ward seems far more interested in detailing how the Inquisition tracked down human survivors afterwards. However he did give some names - Mordrak, Stern, Caddon Varn, Dherk Tevghar and Crowe amongst them. GM Mandullis from the GK novels was supposedly a survivor too but I'm a bit suspicious of that one...

Hm, Horus is winning!

iproxtaco wrote:

Lobukia wrote:define powerful

Ability to crush an opponent with an army?
Power and control over others at their height?
Hand to hand combat?
Resources and influence?
Most dangerous to cross?

I'm going to go with questions 2,4,5 and say the biggest Pappa Smurf, RG.

He's outclassed by Horus on all accounts.

How do you figure? Might be able to make a close case on item 1 and 5 (I'd tip them slightly to Horus... maybe), I give you item 3 for Horus... other 2 are not close

At his height RG directly commanded more marines, guardsmen, and ships than Horus

Before his death RG would have conquered/commanded more planets than Horus

More people would have served under RG's rule and for longer than Horus

More weapons and arms would have been built under RG guidance than Horus

And it would be fair to say the RG's lasting influence is at least as significant as Horus...

If you take RG at Horus's death, sure... but RG lasts way longer and does way more after ole Black-armored Backstab dies... making him more Powerful

Horus killed the Emperor?

Edit: Who put a question mark on the teleprompter.

Well, the Emperor is half dead, half alive, due to the Golden Throne, which keeps him alive.

Horus put the Emperor on the life support machine that is failing. In the American justice system, Horus would be tried for the murder of the Emperor, even though the Emperor is still "alive" (among other charges).

Side note, I just imagined Horus on an episode of Law and Order in a little suit over his spiky power armour. Jack McCoy for the win, and the jury finds: guilty!

Horus.

Anyone that says different is in denial.

Kronk has spoken.

Yes, I agree.

Well if there's no gods or demon swords or anything like on them lines then. Probally lion would whoop them all naturally. The powers and weapons are what make the primarch. And its horus and the emperor that would snap all the other primarchs. Horus pulls arms of the emperor just image what he'd do to rest of them.

Russ was the only one able to match the emperor in single combat, so I vote him, or magnus, or sanguinius.

Chaos gods make you a hacker lol

CpatTom wrote:Daemon swords don't kill people.

Rappers do

Horus is the most powerful easily, look how many of his brothers he bought under his banner to betray the Emperor. Look at how many wars he won, look how the people loved him. He might not have been the strongest or the fastest or the most psychic, but being truly powerful goes beyond that.

That's why he was made Warmaster and no one else.

Lobukia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Lobukia wrote:define powerful

Ability to crush an opponent with an army?
Power and control over others at their height?
Hand to hand combat?
Resources and influence?
Most dangerous to cross?

I'm going to go with questions 2,4,5 and say the biggest Pappa Smurf, RG.

He's outclassed by Horus on all accounts.

How do you figure? Might be able to make a close case on item 1 and 5 (I'd tip them slightly to Horus... maybe), I give you item 3 for Horus... other 2 are not close

At his height RG directly commanded more marines, guardsmen, and ships than Horus

Before his death RG would have conquered/commanded more planets than Horus

More people would have served under RG's rule and for longer than Horus

More weapons and arms would have been built under RG guidance than Horus

And it would be fair to say the RG's lasting influence is at least as significant as Horus...

If you take RG at Horus's death, sure... but RG lasts way longer and does way more after ole Black-armored Backstab dies... making him more Powerful

Horus commanded literally every military force in the entire Imperium at his height. I don't even want to speculate how many non-military forces he commanded.

Ya, Horus is greater than The Emperor....Sorta.

Ogryn wrote:Ya, Horus is greater than The Emperor....Sorta.

Nope. Forces controlled? The Emperor controlled literally everyone. Influence? He's the Emperor of Mankind. Resources? He controlled every aspect of the Imperium. Combat ability? Well, he beat a weakened C'tan, and has utterly destroyed Horus. The Emperor wins on all accounts.

iproxtaco wrote:

Ogryn wrote:Ya, Horus is greater than The Emperor....Sorta.

Nope. Forces controlled? The Emperor controlled literally everyone. Influence? He's the Emperor of Mankind. Resources? He controlled every aspect of the Imperium. Combat ability? Well, he beat a weakened C'tan, and has utterly destroyed Horus. The Emperor wins on all accounts.

The Emperor controlled everyone, that didnt fall to chaos, or are Eldars, or Necrons, or Nids, or Orks... The Emperor controlled every aspect of the Imperium, Horus had the backing of the entirety of the warp. Combat ability see as follows:

Life
noun
1. The condition that distinguishes organisms from inorganic objects and dead organisms, being manifested by growth through metabolism, reproduction, and the power of adaptation to environment through changes originating internally.
Kill
1. To deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.

The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

That's what I meant, really. The Imperium, the most powerful faction at the time, and still is, was under His control. Horus was beneath Him at His height.

That's a stupidly simplistic definition of 'life', and can't apply to the Emperor. His mind is alive, he's aware of the Imperium's struggles and his own existence. It's in some sort of Inquisition book, where the Emperor speaks to someone called Draco, I believe. In 40k, with the Warp, and psychic powers, 'life' is far harder to define.

That is the definition of life. If it cant apply to the Emperor because he was never a living being because his minds state was above that of "life" as we know, it as a being of the warp, then I could agree with that; however that does not change the fact that Horus killed the Emperors physical body.

Haven't read the story with Draco, and it is possible the Emperor realizes Man has become the authoritarian theocracy that he sought to destroy. That would suck, chalk that up as another win for the God-Emperor.

I could also see the virgin mary in my pancakes. Just as an alternative point of view to the Draco scenario. Not saying you aren't right on this. I believe the Age of Apostay had the Emperor communicate with someone (sisters?) as well. The mind can exist without life, in our world it may not be able to communicate without life; however this does not disprove its continued existence. Just ask anyone who believes in the soul and an afterlife. There are plenty of those folks around to make that argument. In 40k the mind can communicate through the warp. We might alter the definition of alive to include the continuation of the mind after the physical has failed, but that is an alteration that must be expressed.

Either way, it is 40k, fluff is, in the best cases, only slightly different. If we are lucky. Other times, it is completely contradictory. This we must always remember.

The Emperor was a bit stronger than Horus, and held back the majority of the fight. Stated in several places, and detailed in Visions of Heresy.

Still dead. Weaker opponents win everyday with better strategy. Horus just had a built in, I'm your favorite son tactic. Its like cheating, but... Chaos.

You can't ignore context.

But you're right, at that point, Horus did beat the Emperor in terms of ruthlessness.

My two favorite Loyalist Primarchs have 0 votes, and my absolute favorite having 1. I'm so hipster...

KilroyKiljoy wrote:My two favorite Loyalist Primarchs have 0 votes. I'm so hipster...

HERESY.

Manus was pretty boss really.

He IMO might of been the most endurant Primarch, taking a massive Thunder Hammer (For lack of better term, was stronger) wielded by Fulgrim to the temple, and proceeded to nearly disembowel him.

Were it not for the Laer sword, Fulgrim would be dead.

Corax is pretty beast, he can jump in and out of battle easily and his claws are badass.

Didn't he beat the **** out of Lorgar?

Yeah, he basically impaled Lorgar with his fist and proceeded to carve up his chest like a Christmas Turkey.

To be fair though, Lorgar was probably on the lower end of primarchs.

Isn't Lorgar one of if not the most powerful Chaos Undivided Daemon Princes?

Ya, Corax is cool, I have always liked the Raven guard.

Well yeah, since the only other Chaos UNDIVIDED Daemon Prince Primarch is Peturabo . . .

Hm, does nobody like the Khan? I guess not..

AchillesFTW wrote:Well yeah, since the only other Chaos UNDIVIDED Daemon Prince Primarch is Peturabo . . .

He didn't say only Daemon Primarch, he said Lorgar was the most powerful Undivided Daemon Prince. Since he's favored by all four, and doesn't just ally himself with which ever one will prove the most lucrative, I'd say yes, he probably is, that we know of.

I'd say the lion was the most powerful. The wolf is powerful but still has a temper, and a whimsy that is sated through foolish actions, He could've pulled intel on magnus, then wiped out the thousand sons IF the E had commanded it. Angron is just bloodthirsty and would easily be sated. Sang is too vain.

Makes sense though, it took a miniture version of the HH to actually *kill* Lion El Johnson, and he's just healing, like the rest of them, in fact its been confirmed that he's healing his wounds, perhaps earlier than Gualllium.

Considering how the OP mentions killing in his post i'd assume he's not talking about influence or indirect trickery.

So following his example you guys should be comparing them in 1v1 arena type deathmatch style.
In which i'd like to see the results both pre and post heresy.

Pre-Heresy? Magnus, Sanguinus, Angron, or Horus. Sanguinus and Horus have skill, Angron has brute strength and combat ability, Magnus has his psychic powers.
Post-Heresy? Magnus, Lorgar, or Angron. Magnus and Angron for the same reasons as Pre-Heresy, Lorgar, is backed by all four Chaos Gods, and he seems to have bucked up his act after Corax.

Just a little tid-bit , did the Emperor make them capable of being his equals/possibly surpassing him or just strong enough to be in charge of their legions?

Leonorai wrote:Just a little tid-bit , did the Emperor make them capable of being his equals/possibly surpassing him or just strong enough to be in charge of their legions?

Considering he beat Horus, the best of the Primarchs, even when he was powered up by all four Chaos Gods, no.

Oh, this thread again.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Oh, this thread again.

Four pages in. Lol at you.

iproxtaco wrote:

Lord Rogukiel wrote:Oh, this thread again.

Four pages in. Lol at you.

I was busy burning heretics. Sorry...

iproxtaco wrote:
Horus commanded literally every military force in the entire Imperium at his height. I don't even want to speculate how many non-military forces he commanded.

...and lost. Guilliman commands the same (just not at height) and wins... and no Emperor to overrule him.

Much easier to command, betray, and win (never mind lose)... much much more difficult to rebuild, restore, preserve and win (especially after the last guy with that power was a back stabber)

Lobukia wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Horus commanded literally every military force in the entire Imperium at his height. I don't even want to speculate how many non-military forces he commanded.

...and lost. Guilliman commands the same (just not at height) and wins... and no Emperor to overrule him.

I'm talking about when Horus was Warmaster. When Guilliman was at his height, either just before the Heresy, or just after it, he never commanded anywhere near what Horus did at his height. You're talking about during the Heresy, when he commanded about half of the Imperium's forces, which was still more than Guilliman ever did.

Much easier to command, betray, and win (never mind lose)... much much more difficult to rebuild, restore, preserve and win (especially after the last guy with that power was a back stabber)

Yes, that was Guilliman's strong point, he was unparalleled in his ability to build rather than destroy.

CpatTom wrote:The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

There is a difference in what the Hours did to the Emperor and vise versa.
Horus's soul was utterly destroyed so the Big four could not bring him back as a Deamon.
The Emp was still alive when he left the battle barge and gave instructions verbally on how to bring the Golden Throne up to spec.

The Monk wrote:

CpatTom wrote:The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

There is a difference in what the Hours did to the Emperor and vise versa.
Horus's soul was utterly destroyed so the Big four could not bring him back as a Deamon.
The Emp was still alive when he left the battle barge and gave instructions verbally on how to bring the Golden Throne up to spec.

See definition: Life, Kill.

CpatTom wrote:

The Monk wrote:

CpatTom wrote:The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

There is a difference in what the Hours did to the Emperor and vise versa.
Horus's soul was utterly destroyed so the Big four could not bring him back as a Deamon.
The Emp was still alive when he left the battle barge and gave instructions verbally on how to bring the Golden Throne up to spec.

See definition: Life, Kill.

You can get pedantic on the definitions of the word kill if you want. But..
As stated you must admit that what happened to each of the two combatants was vastly different. There for not "pretty even".

So although you can technically use one word with a generalised definition to describe the eventuall outcome. To argue the point of their similarties based on that one word is incorrect because what happened trancended the definition. By the clash trancending the material universe into the non-physical relm.

See definition: Context.

Ah, Horus is still winning And Magnus is in second!

The Monk wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

The Monk wrote:

CpatTom wrote:The Emperor killed Horus, and Horus killed the Emperor. Pretty even on the combat ability.

There is a difference in what the Hours did to the Emperor and vise versa.
Horus's soul was utterly destroyed so the Big four could not bring him back as a Deamon.
The Emp was still alive when he left the battle barge and gave instructions verbally on how to bring the Golden Throne up to spec.

See definition: Life, Kill.

You can get pedantic on the definitions of the word kill if you want. But..
As stated you must admit that what happened to each of the two combatants was vastly different. There for not "pretty even".

So although you can technically use one word with a generalised definition to describe the eventuall outcome. To argue the point of their similarties based on that one word is incorrect because what happened trancended the definition. By the clash trancending the material universe into the non-physical relm.

See definition: Context.

Horus has more KP's than the Emperor. Sanguinius and the Emperor. Horus wins.

Lol,

Hey at least I aggree with you on one point, Hours Was definatly the most powerfull Primarch IMHO even without his Chaos powers.

But Hours win's over the Emp, im sorry. thats just plain laughable.

Most powerful Primarch is Ghazghkull.
/thread.

KilroyKiljoy wrote:Most powerful Primarch is Ghazghkull.
/thread.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW.

Its all irrelevant anyhow, Draigo is more powerful than the Warp Undivided. The hate that seethes from the debate over his accomplishments as turned him into the most powerful being in the 40k Universe.

Why does everybody think Draigo is so powerful?

Ogryn wrote:Why does everybody think Draigo is so powerful?

Ignorance. Inability to read the fluff for themselves. Reliance on sources like 1d4chan and general Internet hyperbole. Irrational hatred of Mat Ward.

Haha, I also meant compared to a Primarch.

Well that's the reason. He's done things other characters have done in the past, and he's far more powerful than those. Dante beat Ka'bandha single handed, Hector Rex beat Ann'grath single handed, Thawn beat Ku'gath single handed, Draigo's beaten N'kari countless times, but I've never seen any of these complained about.

People like to make stupid arguments about why they are right.

iproxtaco wrote:Dante beat Ka'bandha single handed

Dante beat Skarbrand single handed, IIRC he never bested Ka'Bhanda.

Want to know what no one else has done though?

Walk into the realm of a Chaos God and turn it to ruin.

Draigo is considered extremely powerful because he is.

Nothing in the Warp has given him pause.

I can't actually think of anyone who has beaten a Greater Daemon in the Warp (Though it may of happened).

Horus is not the most powerful, The Emperor basically toyed with him till he killed him finally.


Leman Russ is, the toughest tank in the universe is named after him

or maybe Angron

DIDM wrote:Horus is not the most powerful, The Emperor basically toyed with him till he killed him finally.


Leman Russ is, the toughest tank in the universe is named after him

or maybe Angron

The part about the Emperor and his fight with Horus is so wrong it's funny.

Coolyo294 wrote:

DIDM wrote:Horus is not the most powerful, The Emperor basically toyed with him till he killed him finally.


Leman Russ is, the toughest tank in the universe is named after him

or maybe Angron

The part about the Emperor and his fight with Horus is so wrong it's funny.

is it really? Why didn't he just kill him instantly then? He didn't want to, and BASICALLY toyed with him, he didn't go all out and just destroy him.

maybe toyed isn't the greatest word, but when you don't go all out I see that as toying

Yes I'm sure the Emperor was definitely toying with Horus when Horus cut his chest open.

Or when Horus ripped his jugular out with a power claw.

Or when Horus burned the Emperor with lightning until one of the Emperor's eyes popped.

Or when Horus ripped one of the Emperor's arms off.

Or when Horus broke the wrist on his remaining arm, lifted him into the air, and snapped his spine over his knee.

The fluff dictates the Emperor needed his "full power" to defeat a Chaos Empowered Horus. Compare this to when the Emperor fought Leman Russ. The Emperor proceeded to toy with Russ, and when he wanted to end the fight, he ended it with one blow.

Leman Russ was also getting his ass kicked by Magnus for most of the fight, even though Magnus' full power was not brought to bare.

Oh, and Corax apparently thinks only Horus and maybe Sanguinius could best Angron in martial combat. Russ is not on that list. Though, Corax could be mistaken I admit.

Kurze - he was powerful enough to resist chaos, which even HORUS could not do. He even had the courage and bravery to allow the M'shen to kill him. Other than him, Mortarion or Alpharius/Omegon. Tricky Gits...
Sqallum

Dorn is the master of defense(forget perturabo), sanguinius and Corax had wings and they both were beast( though corax is better if you ask me) Vulcan was wise, Russ is just an animal.

Overall all the primarchs have there strengths so they could be equals.

Except Lorger he just sucks all round.


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Seriously? Horus sucks, he fell to chaos so he was only strong enough because he had help from chaos and even with that he still got killed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
By the Emperor!

Void__Dragon wrote:Yes I'm sure the Emperor was definitely toying with Horus when Horus cut his chest open.

Or when Horus ripped his jugular out with a power claw.

Or when Horus burned the Emperor with lightning until one of the Emperor's eyes popped.

Or when Horus ripped one of the Emperor's arms off.

Or when Horus broke the wrist on his remaining arm, lifted him into the air, and snapped his spine over his knee.

The fluff dictates the Emperor needed his "full power" to defeat a Chaos Empowered Horus. Compare this to when the Emperor fought Leman Russ. The Emperor proceeded to toy with Russ, and when he wanted to end the fight, he ended it with one blow.

Leman Russ was also getting his ass kicked by Magnus for most of the fight, even though Magnus' full power was not brought to bare.

Oh, and Corax apparently thinks only Horus and maybe Sanguinius could best Angron in martial combat. Russ is not on that list. Though, Corax could be mistaken I admit.

Hilarious.

Wasn't Russ a guardsmen at a point? Retconned into a primarch, or some such nonsense.

Yes, I have heard that. It is apparently the original reason for the naming of the tank; Russ was a renowned IG commander.

You forgot Bruce Campbell...



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Void__Dragon wrote:Yes, I have heard that. It is apparently the original reason for the naming of the tank; Russ was a renowned IG commander.

Wait, what? How did that happen?

Just verifying. I haven't been around the hobby long enough to have read any of that first hand. Thanks.

Void__Dragon wrote:Manus was pretty boss really.

He IMO might of been the most endurant Primarch, taking a massive Thunder Hammer (For lack of better term, was stronger) wielded by Fulgrim to the temple, and proceeded to nearly disembowel him.

Were it not for the Laer sword, Fulgrim would be dead.

In fairness to Fulgrim, he wasn't exactly in optimal condition when they fought, and regardless of the daemon, was unwilling to kill his brother. Manus, on the other hand, viewed Fulgrim as a brother no more. If both had brought their A-game, I'd say it would have been a fight to standstill if the daemon didn't intervene.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Void__Dragon wrote:Yes I'm sure the Emperor was definitely toying with Horus when Horus cut his chest open.

Or when Horus ripped his jugular out with a power claw.

Or when Horus burned the Emperor with lightning until one of the Emperor's eyes popped.

Or when Horus ripped one of the Emperor's arms off.

Or when Horus broke the wrist on his remaining arm, lifted him into the air, and snapped his spine over his knee.

The fluff dictates the Emperor needed his "full power" to defeat a Chaos Empowered Horus. Compare this to when the Emperor fought Leman Russ. The Emperor proceeded to toy with Russ, and when he wanted to end the fight, he ended it with one blow.

Leman Russ was also getting his ass kicked by Magnus for most of the fight, even though Magnus' full power was not brought to bare.

Oh, and Corax apparently thinks only Horus and maybe Sanguinius could best Angron in martial combat. Russ is not on that list. Though, Corax could be mistaken I admit.

One blow of a power fist to an unarmoured head. Not really fair... (well, it's described as powered gauntlet).

Durza wrote:In fairness to Fulgrim, he wasn't exactly in optimal condition when they fought, and regardless of the daemon, was unwilling to kill his brother. Manus, on the other hand, viewed Fulgrim as a brother no more. If both had brought their A-game, I'd say it would have been a fight to standstill if the daemon didn't intervene.

How was Fulgrim not in optimal condition? And he was very much fighting to kill his brother for the first part of the fight. One does not swing a massive thunder hammer at someone's temple without the intent to kill. Manus survived that blow due to his sheer toughness.

One blow of a power fist to an unarmoured head. Not really fair... (well, it's described as powered gauntlet).

He was also knocked out by a punch to the chin from the Lion as well.

Then of course there is Magnus, who punched a hole through Russ' chest.

Don't get me wrong, Leman Russ is by no means a wimp, and IMO would certainly be one of the stronger Primarchs in martial combat, but above Chaos Empowered Horus he certainly wasn't, not even close.

Leman Russ is probably my second vote. I mean, he is the Primarch of powerful drunks.

Before he had the backing of the Chaos gods Horus was declared the Warmaster and second in command to the Emperor, that alone suggests to me that in the Emperor's opinion Horus was the best Primarch. With the Chaos gods backing? I dont think there can really be any debate. Let's face it, he throttled Sanguinious to death before taking on the Emperor and narrowly failing in killing him! It's a shame because Rogal Dorn is my favourite - I think he was probably the most pure hearted of them all!

I cannot stand that that dumb Space Puppie is higher then Sabguinus

Sanguinius was the most pure, had the most psyking power and should have been warmaster, as he just wanted peace, unlike other Primarchs who wanted eternal war. Khorne loonies they are.

It is pretty simple who the best primarch is and that is curze for the simple fact is none of the others are as skilled in both combat speed and infiltration and being able to devastate whole planets from within the shadows is strong.

Horus was nearly killed by a bureaucrat with a fancy chaos sword. Draigo walked into the Garden of Nurgle and burnt it to the ground WITH THE POWER OF HIS MIND.

Which seems more powerful to you?

Sanguinius ftw because... well... he's amazing...

Void__Dragon wrote:Yes I'm sure the Emperor was definitely toying with Horus when Horus cut his chest open.

Or when Horus ripped his jugular out with a power claw.

Or when Horus burned the Emperor with lightning until one of the Emperor's eyes popped.

Or when Horus ripped one of the Emperor's arms off.

Or when Horus broke the wrist on his remaining arm, lifted him into the air, and snapped his spine over his knee.

Remember that part when The Emperor killed Horus? That was pretty cool.

But in all seriousness, this isn't really a thread so much as a foregone conclusion. Horus was the only Primarch with enough strength to take on the Emperor, therefore he is the strongest Primarch. This isn't even a question, it's just an excuse to say Horus' name a lot. Heresy.

No, I made this thread to see Dakka's opinion of who the most powerful Primarch is.

It's not an opinion though. It's canon.

True, but I wanted to see what everyone said. Wow, Horus sure is popular.

Are we going with the Crusade at the height of its power, or by the end of the Heresy, when many Primarchs are dead?

Because that was Horus with the blessings and powers of every Chaos God. He was quite a bit more powerful than he would have been prior to that.

We are going for: Which Primarch is the most Powerful, ever.

Horus is not the most powerful primarch he needed to be amped by Chaos to even come close to the emperor in power.
I would say Magnus is the most powerful

thenoobbomb wrote:I cannot stand that that dumb Space Puppie is higher then Sabguinus

Sanguinius was the most pure, had the most psyking power and should have been warmaster, as he just wanted peace, unlike other Primarchs who wanted eternal war. Khorne loonies they are.

Magnus the Red was by far the most powerful psyker among the Primarchs. This can't even be argued, honestly.

gpfunk wrote:Remember that part when The Emperor killed Horus? That was pretty cool.

But in all seriousness, this isn't really a thread so much as a foregone conclusion. Horus was the only Primarch with enough strength to take on the Emperor, therefore he is the strongest Primarch. This isn't even a question, it's just an excuse to say Horus' name a lot. Heresy.

The Emperor did indeed kill Horus. But he was not "toying" with Horus either, subconsciously, he just couldn't bring his full power to bare on his favored son, his full power which was directly stated to be necessary.

Counting Horus with the full backing of Chaos is stupid. Because that's completely inarguable. But before he had the backing of Chaos, it is. IMO it is Magnus the Red who would be strongest, followed by Horus, Angron, and Sanguinius, or so. Not counting Chaos tomfoolery of course. Because that makes it kind of unfair.

Ogryn wrote:True, but I wanted to see what everyone said. Wow, Horus sure is popular.

He's not popular. It's simply canon that he IS the best Primarch. He may not be able to best Magnus in a one on one, but he generally the best of the Primarchs. That's why he was picked to be the Warmaster.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Durza wrote:In fairness to Fulgrim, he wasn't exactly in optimal condition when they fought, and regardless of the daemon, was unwilling to kill his brother. Manus, on the other hand, viewed Fulgrim as a brother no more. If both had brought their A-game, I'd say it would have been a fight to standstill if the daemon didn't intervene.

How was Fulgrim not in optimal condition? And he was very much fighting to kill his brother for the first part of the fight. One does not swing a massive thunder hammer at someone's temple without the intent to kill. Manus survived that blow due to his sheer toughness.

I need to re read Fulgrim before I can say this with any certainty, but IIRC, he didn't want to fight his brother, semi-gave up half way through, was pretty close to insane and had been doing a lot of drugs. Again, it could have just been my take on it, but his heart didn't seem to be in it.

Who was Fulgrim's brother?

Leman Russ!!! rules over all, praise the all farther and all that

Russ is a fat drunk.

Ogryn wrote:Who was Fulgrim's brother?

The primarchs were all brothers. Or they called themselves that.

Primarchs were genetically engineered by the Emperor, they are literal brothers. They were grown in test tubes though, they didn't come out of the same woman.

Primarchs weren't born from woman....

If that was a grammatical joke then that's what I meant, as in the same mother, 1 person, a woman.

As far as I am aware they were all test tube babies but are still blood brothers.

iproxtaco wrote:He's not popular. It's simply canon that he IS the best Primarch. He may not be able to best Magnus in a one on one, but he generally the best of the Primarchs. That's why he was picked to be the Warmaster.

True enough.

Along with being among the strongest in martial combat, he also was a brilliant tactician and strategist, as well as a charismatic leader and diplomat.

Other Primarchs may of been better at specific areas than him, but Horus was the best overall.


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Durza wrote:I need to re read Fulgrim before I can say this with any certainty, but IIRC, he didn't want to fight his brother, semi-gave up half way through, was pretty close to insane and had been doing a lot of drugs. Again, it could have just been my take on it, but his heart didn't seem to be in it.

He only really stopped wanting to fight his brother the moment Ferrus Manus started kicking his ass. Manus took the hammer to the temple, and proceeded to nearly disembowel Fulgrim.

I'd say they were on par, personally.

Also Fulgrim had the upper hand as he had a Chaos possessed sword. Fulgrim really didn't want to kill Ferrus, they were noted as the two closest brothers out of all the Primarchs. It was the swords influence that tipped Fulgrim over the edge.
In fact Fulgrim is but a prisoner in his own body, it is possessed by the Demon from the sword.

Blood_Raven wrote:Also Fulgrim had the upper hand as he had a Chaos possessed sword. Fulgrim really didn't want to kill Ferrus, they were noted as the two closest brothers out of all the Primarchs. It was the swords influence that tipped Fulgrim over the edge.
In fact Fulgrim is but a prisoner in his own body, it is possessed by the Demon from the sword.

Wrong, Alpharius Omegon were closer . But all that other stuff is probably right.

Blood_Raven wrote:Also Fulgrim had the upper hand as he had a Chaos possessed sword. Fulgrim really didn't want to kill Ferrus, they were noted as the two closest brothers out of all the Primarchs. It was the swords influence that tipped Fulgrim over the edge.
In fact Fulgrim is but a prisoner in his own body, it is possessed by the Demon from the sword.

He wasn't using the sword until it literally jumped into his hand.

Which is the moment he started to win.

Fulgrim winning?

Horus for overall
Lemen russ or angron for physical prowess
Magnus for pyschic prowess
Lion for being so awesome (who else has a chapter with little yoda's running around?)

Lol, actually the Das are Emo monks.

you mean the watchers in the dark?

No, just the regular DAS.

Ah I was talking about the watchers in the dark being little yodas but your right about the DA

SGASheppard wrote:Horus for overall
Lemen russ or angron for physical prowess
Magnus for pyschic prowess
Lion for being so awesome (who else has a chapter with little yoda's running around?)

Kurze was at least better then Russ. Corax also said Sanguinus could best Angron.

If we went for general badassery, I would choose Vulkan. Took on a DE raiding party with two hammers he picked up from a forge.

Tied with him is Magnus the Red. You have GOT to feel like a badass when you destroy a Titan with your mind.

Durza wrote:In fairness to Fulgrim, he wasn't exactly in optimal condition when they fought, and regardless of the daemon, was unwilling to kill his brother. Manus, on the other hand, viewed Fulgrim as a brother no more. If both had brought their A-game, I'd say it would have been a fight to standstill if the daemon didn't intervene.

I'm not really sure how Fulgrim wasn't in optimal condition. He was kickin it with his homiez watching the slaughter that was Istvaan develop until Ferrus brought the fight to him........If we're gonna be fair, Ferrus had to fight his way to Fulgrim not the other way around...And he and the Morlocks killed a lotta suckaz before Fulgrim and Ferrus crossed swords (Or hammer in Ferrus' case)

Horus, as more or less conclusively established by the cannon. He had the most potent combination of strength, martial skill and tactics. In battle with any other Primarch, he would leverage his relative strengths to win 9/10 times. The emperor recognised this by making him Warmaster; the tragedy being of course that power shouldn't have been the main criteria, but humility and empathy (hence Sanguinius as best hindsight choice).

The only interesting case for another Primarch - based on Canon, not fanboy love - is the case for Magnus. His powers made him unsuitable for being Warmaster only because the other Primarchs were suspicious of him and would not, therefore, unite behind him. This was reflected in the Emperor's plans for Magnus (avoiding spoilers here).

Well, Magnus is "The Primarch of sorcery".

Test tube babies 2 and 11

Why does everyone like Fulgrim?

Probably because he's a pretty pretty princess.

iproxtaco wrote:Kurze was at least better then Russ. Corax also said Sanguinus could best Angron.

I'm not sure on Curze being better than Russ, honestly. Curze would be better than Russ in a barehanded brawl, sure, but with a blade, Lion El'Jonson was beating the living gak out of Curze. The Primarchs had varying areas they excelled in, the Lion and Russ both excelled with blades, though not to the extent of Angron or Sanguinius.

Corax only thought Sanguinius could "maybe" beat Angron in martial combat.

Hm. Angron needs to fight a Primarch. All he has going for him at the moment is hype.


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TutorialBoss wrote:Horus, as more or less conclusively established by the cannon. He had the most potent combination of strength, martial skill and tactics. In battle with any other Primarch, he would leverage his relative strengths to win 9/10 times. The emperor recognised this by making him Warmaster; the tragedy being of course that power shouldn't have been the main criteria, but humility and empathy (hence Sanguinius as best hindsight choice).

The only interesting case for another Primarch - based on Canon, not fanboy love - is the case for Magnus. His powers made him unsuitable for being Warmaster only because the other Primarchs were suspicious of him and would not, therefore, unite behind him. This was reflected in the Emperor's plans for Magnus (avoiding spoilers here).

Horus is up there with Angron and Sanguinius in terms of martial skill, he was certainly one of the strongest. Though that's not just why he became Warmaster, being Warmaster meant more than being powerful in combat. Guilliman would probably be murked in martial combat with Angron, but Guilliman would make an infinitely better Warmaster than Angron, for example. Horus was a brilliant strategist, tactician, diplomat, and charismatic leader. But... Yeah, he was very powerful. I don't think Horus was made Warmaster merely for martial skill.

Magnus would get my vote, yeah.

Sanguinius is probably one of the greatest Primarchs.

So, what did Ferrus Manus do to get himself one vote?

Ogryn wrote:So, what did Ferrus Manus do to get himself one vote?

More than Guilliman has.

Ferrus Manus proved himself superior or at least on par with base Fulgrim, who had to use the Laer sword to win.

Ferrus Manus is also the physically strongest Primarch, rivaled in this regard only by Vulkan.

He has incredible durability and toughness, taking a blow to the temple from a massive Thunderhammer wielded by Fulgrim, and proceeded to nearly disembowel Fulgrim.

Granted, he's not the strongest Primarch overall, but he's by no means weak.

Horus broke the emperors mind, no other primarchs can say that

Horus himself said that Sanguinius should've been Warmaster, and not simply because Sanguinius possessed humility and empathy that Horus didn't.

Incidentally, Horus was never portrayed, prior to getting powered up by the Chaos gods, as the most badass combatant in the galaxy, or even one of the more noteworthy. He was a primarch, and therefore a wildly competent asskicker, but his real strength was his charisma and force of personality. Before his ascension, I think most of the combat-focused primarchs could've handled him without much issue.

Anyone who answered rowboat girlyman is infact a girlyman. I would have to go with Magnus. I think he has an advantage over everyone. Its hard to pinpoint who is best though as all primarchs were made for certain things. They are all good at what they do. Except rowboat girlyman whom I dont think anyone really cares for.

Seaward wrote:Horus himself said that Sanguinius should've been Warmaster, and not simply because Sanguinius possessed humility and empathy that Horus didn't.

Incidentally, Horus was never portrayed, prior to getting powered up by the Chaos gods, as the most badass combatant in the galaxy, or even one of the more noteworthy. He was a primarch, and therefore a wildly competent asskicker, but his real strength was his charisma and force of personality. Before his ascension, I think most of the combat-focused primarchs could've handled him without much issue.

Actually that's exactly why Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

And Horus was said to be the only primarch definitely capable of beating Angron in single combat. This was before his ascension.

Sanguinius should have been Warmaster, now that I think about it...

#2 and #11

Gone but not forgotten...

Preheresy Sanguinius was the most powerful IMHO, he could read the future and had considerable attributes in every field that a leader and combatant needs. He was righthand man to the emperor and could read the future. I like to think the only reason he wasn't made Warmaster was due to his vision of peace, something no doubt the Emperor wouldn't have wanted in a Warmaster.

Once tainted by Chaos Horus without a doubt became the most powerful. Is he still defined as a Primarch after this event? I like to think not.

Roboute Guilliman is your Spiritual Liege, you can't forget that.

I just plain like Lion's look. Space Knights that aren't untouchable? Yes please! And the whole Knights Vs Vikings thing I think was cool.

Think we'll ever know about the two missing?

Namica wrote:I just plain like Lion's look. Space Knights that aren't untouchable? Yes please! And the whole Knights Vs Vikings thing I think was cool.

Think we'll ever know about the two missing?

No.

Nope. The Lion shall be forever in a coma...

One major factor for Horus being warmaster is that he was the first of the primarchs found and so the emperor knew him more. It was neccesarily that he was stronger or smarter, the emperor just knew him better and probably favored him alittle more than the others having spent more time with him.

DornFist wrote:One major factor for Horus being warmaster is that he was the first of the primarchs found and so the emperor knew him more. It was neccesarily that he was stronger or smarter, the emperor just knew him better and probably favored him alittle more than the others having spent more time with him.

The Lion was the first to be found.

Coolyo294 wrote:The Lion was the first to be found.

Er, no, the Lion was the first to be made.

Horus was the first Primarch to be found.

most powerful... hmmm going by fluff

1 Horus, Sanguinius
1.5 magnus, Fulgrim
1.7 angron
2 Russ/Lion, corax (haunter, mad)
3 haunter (non mad) everyone else

this is not just combat power this is all there abilities combined

Russ should be up higher...

1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Leonus Cohol wrote:1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Your list is wrong.

Too..... many....... Opinions........ Must resist...................

But you cannot!

Void__Dragon wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Your list is wrong.

Void__Dragon wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Your list is wrong.

My list is my list.
You can have yours.

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Your list is wrong.

My list is my list.
You can have yours.

Your list is still wrong, for example, why is Russ above Magnus and the Lion? Why is Angron ranked fourth? What makes the Khan able to take on Konrad Curze?

You people are aware that Konrad nearly killed both the Lion and Dorn right?

Soladrin wrote:You people are aware that Konrad nearly killed both the Lion and Dorn right?

Yes, it's like the film Chucky except the crazed serial killer is trapped in the body of a Primarch.

iproxtaco wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Your list is wrong.

My list is my list.
You can have yours.

Your list is still wrong, for example, why is Russ above Magnus and the Lion? Why is Angron ranked fourth? What makes the Khan able to take on Konrad Curze?

This is my list as in my understanding of how badass they are. I don't know much about some Primarchs like Konrad and Ferrus, that's why they are pretty low. Feel to laugh at my ignorance.
1. I think Russ is more bloodthirsty a fighter.
2. Well, now that I know Angron was a total BAMF...
3. To be completely honest, I like Genghis Khan more and he could fight toe to toe with anybody.

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:Horus himself said that Sanguinius should've been Warmaster, and not simply because Sanguinius possessed humility and empathy that Horus didn't.

Incidentally, Horus was never portrayed, prior to getting powered up by the Chaos gods, as the most badass combatant in the galaxy, or even one of the more noteworthy. He was a primarch, and therefore a wildly competent asskicker, but his real strength was his charisma and force of personality. Before his ascension, I think most of the combat-focused primarchs could've handled him without much issue.

Actually that's exactly why Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

Horus said otherwise.

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:Horus himself said that Sanguinius should've been Warmaster, and not simply because Sanguinius possessed humility and empathy that Horus didn't.

Incidentally, Horus was never portrayed, prior to getting powered up by the Chaos gods, as the most badass combatant in the galaxy, or even one of the more noteworthy. He was a primarch, and therefore a wildly competent asskicker, but his real strength was his charisma and force of personality. Before his ascension, I think most of the combat-focused primarchs could've handled him without much issue.

Actually that's exactly why Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

Horus said otherwise.

When he left him all crumpled and dead?

CpatTom wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:Horus himself said that Sanguinius should've been Warmaster, and not simply because Sanguinius possessed humility and empathy that Horus didn't.

Incidentally, Horus was never portrayed, prior to getting powered up by the Chaos gods, as the most badass combatant in the galaxy, or even one of the more noteworthy. He was a primarch, and therefore a wildly competent asskicker, but his real strength was his charisma and force of personality. Before his ascension, I think most of the combat-focused primarchs could've handled him without much issue.

Actually that's exactly why Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

Horus said otherwise.

When he left him all crumpled and dead?

No, when Horus was all crumpled and nearly dead and expounding on why Sanguinius should've been Warmaster instead of him.

Horus certainly became the most powerful once he became an Undivided daemon prince, no question about that.

Leonus Cohol wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:

Void__Dragon wrote:

Leonus Cohol wrote:1. Horus
2. Vulkan, Leman Russ, Sanguinius
3. Magnus, Dorn, Khan, Lion, Perturabo
4. Corax, Guilliman, Angron, Alpharius/Omegon
5. Fulgrim, Ferrus Manus, Lorgar, Konrad, Mortarion

My list.
Horus is the undisputed champion.
Under that is like a Tier List
Vulkan and Russ being Top Tier
Lorgar and Ferrus being Low Tier

Your list is wrong.

My list is my list.
You can have yours.

Your list is still wrong, for example, why is Russ above Magnus and the Lion? Why is Angron ranked fourth? What makes the Khan able to take on Konrad Curze?

This is my list as in my understanding of how badass they are. I don't know much about some Primarchs like Konrad and Ferrus, that's why they are pretty low. Feel to laugh at my ignorance.
1. I think Russ is more bloodthirsty a fighter.
2. Well, now that I know Angron was a total BAMF...
3. To be completely honest, I like Genghis Khan more and he could fight toe to toe with anybody.

Russ is a savage, a brawler lacking finesse of any kind. He fought the Lion to a stand-still, that battle was probably like comparing a cage fighter to Nanquan expert. Then of course, he beat Mangus thanks to a huge helping of luck and the fact Magnus wasn't even concentrating on Russ.

Apparently, only Horus and possibly Sanguinus could have bested Angron. Corax says so in Deliverance Lost IIRC.

He's a warrior, but we have no idea what he's like. Probably a mix between Russ and the Lion. Russ's savage strength tempered by the Lion's skill.

Seaward wrote:

No, when Horus was all crumpled and nearly dead and expounding on why Sanguinius should've been Warmaster instead of him.

Horus certainly became the most powerful once he became an Undivided daemon prince, no question about that.

Horus was never a Daemon Prince.

iproxtaco wrote:
Horus was never a Daemon Prince.

That's arguable. He didn't get goat legs or horns, but he definitely got powered up by Chaos.

Seaward wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:
Horus was never a Daemon Prince.

That's arguable. He didn't get goat legs or horns, but he definitely got powered up by Chaos.

Powered yes, they granted Horus a measure of their power, but he remained of the material realm in order to lead his armies, the same reason why Abaddon is not a Daemon Prince.

Soladrin wrote:You people are aware that Konrad nearly killed both the Lion and Dorn right?

You are aware Lion was pretty much handing Konrad his ass to him before he managed to tackle and pin him down?

And the Lion was still resisting.

Seaward wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Seaward wrote:

Durza wrote:

Seaward wrote:Horus himself said that Sanguinius should've been Warmaster, and not simply because Sanguinius possessed humility and empathy that Horus didn't.

Incidentally, Horus was never portrayed, prior to getting powered up by the Chaos gods, as the most badass combatant in the galaxy, or even one of the more noteworthy. He was a primarch, and therefore a wildly competent asskicker, but his real strength was his charisma and force of personality. Before his ascension, I think most of the combat-focused primarchs could've handled him without much issue.

Actually that's exactly why Horus thought Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.

Horus said otherwise.

When he left him all crumpled and dead?

No, when Horus was all crumpled and nearly dead and expounding on why Sanguinius should've been Warmaster instead of him.

Horus certainly became the most powerful once he became an Undivided daemon prince, no question about that.

Except he was already the most powerful anyway. He might've had slightly more trouble killing Sanguinius before he was powerd up, but he still could've done it.

Iproxtaco i thought Russ beat Magnus one on one? i havn't read Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but as far as i knew Russ was able to resist Magnus Psychic abilities, and break his back over his knee, do you have quotes to say Magnus was distracted or wasn't totally concentrating on the fight?

Russ gained the advantage after accidentally poking Magnus in the eye or something.

The Son Of Russ wrote:Iproxtaco i thought Russ beat Magnus one on one? i havn't read Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but as far as i knew Russ was able to resist Magnus Psychic abilities, and break his back over his knee, do you have quotes to say Magnus was distracted or wasn't totally concentrating on the fight?

Basically, Magnus was concentrating on keeping the entire Space Wolves Legion, the Custodians, and the Sisters of Silence from attacking his sons while he and Russ fought, frying and killing many of them while fighting Russ. He was also keeping any of them from interfering in the fight by warding them off. He was also fighting Leman Russ' wolves whom Russ brought to triple-team Magnus. He was also tearing apart the surface of the planet Prospero while preparing a spell to transport the survivors of the Burning of Prospero into the Warp. He was also kicking Russ' ass for most of the fight, including doing such memorable things like punching his fist through Russ' heart. Russ then, and I quote, "flailed blindly," and scored a lucky hit on Magnus' one eye, the source of his psychic power, stunning and blinding him. Russ took advantage of this, and only then did he break his back.

I wouldn't say Russ is completely unskilled though, perhaps less refined than the Lion, but still a very capable fighter.

The Son Of Russ wrote:Iproxtaco i thought Russ beat Magnus one on one? i havn't read Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but as far as i knew Russ was able to resist Magnus Psychic abilities, and break his back over his knee, do you have quotes to say Magnus was distracted or wasn't totally concentrating on the fight?

They fought at the gates to Magnus's pyramid on Prospero. Fortunately for Russ, Magnus was concentrating on several other more important things whilst fighting his brother. First of all, he was preparing to teleport what remained of the city into the Warp. He was also tearing up the planet using his psychic powers, causing rents in the earth and an electrical storm. At the same time, he was blocking the rest of the Space Wolves, Custodians and Sisters of Silence from entering the pyramid. He formed a huge lake of boiling water between the two armies, frying any Wulfen that tried to cross it. Then of course he had Russ's two gigantic wolves to deal with, which he did. All this time he largely had the upper hand until, as Void_Dragon said, he flailed blindly with his sword after being blinded by a psychic attack, hitting Magnus's one and only weak-spot, his eye. Only then did Russ succeed in winning the battle.

To be fair to Russ it's debatable what psykic powers could have done to him in the first place. AFAIK, primarches are extremely resilient to their effects. Also, the book we're using for information is from the prospective of the Thousand Sons or at least has a pretty large thousand son bias. If you read some other fluff sources, they'll tell you Russ kicked the big guy in the eye, hoisted him up, the broken him like a twig across his knee.

There are no other fluff sources that tell a different story. This is what happened.
If we do follow your point though it would mean Russ was being beaten by Magnus even without his psychic powers.

iproxtaco wrote:There are no other fluff sources that tell a different story.

Well, that's not exactly true.

In Index Astartes, Russ blinded Magnus with a well-placed kick.

But Index Astartes is also no longer as credible a source in terms of this.

The Horus Heresy series has effectivelly overruled it.

As much as fluff can be overruled

I'm not a Russ fanboi at all just saying that the novels, each and everyone, carry a bias because of their point of view.

Russ

/thread

FinalAnswer wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You people are aware that Konrad nearly killed both the Lion and Dorn right?

You are aware Lion was pretty much handing Konrad his ass to him before he managed to tackle and pin him down?

And the Lion was still resisting.

Moot point, the Lion was losing and would most likely have been killed without intervention from captain backstab.

After reading Aurelian and the massive changes in capabilities Lorgar goes through hard not to pick him .
Spoiler alert

AustonT wrote:

Then again, I've recently read his fluff, and am hardcore fanboying over him as the only likeable Loyalist Primarch, if you exclude Vulkan and Sanguinius.

I lol-ed at this. Aramis is the only musketeer if you exclude Athos and Porthos. But I got what you were driving at. It's really no coincidence that the primarchs that could have made the Imperium a less grimdark organization died in the HH.

I know, it is a real shame, as I really liked those three, as they were inherently likeable, could settle agreements and defended people who could defend themselves. As a result, they are dead.
Sqallum

Mortarion is awesome im reading flight of the Einstein but I think horus is best

Absolon wrote:After reading Aurelian and the massive changes in capabilities Lorgar goes through hard not to pick him .
Spoiler alert

Spoiler:

He beats a demon possesed Fulgrim to within an inch of his life, takes control of Horus's body and makes him physically do something as Horus tries to resist and pretty mich scares Magnus because he is now the strongest psychic.

Soladrin wrote:

FinalAnswer wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You people are aware that Konrad nearly killed both the Lion and Dorn right?

You are aware Lion was pretty much handing Konrad his ass to him before he managed to tackle and pin him down?

And the Lion was still resisting.

Moot point, the Lion was losing and would most likely have been killed without intervention from captain backstab.

Where is this from? Is captain backstab Horus?
Sqallum

So is the Lion based somewhat on King Arthur? Especially the betrayal and sundering of the kingdom and now after the climatic battle he sleeps in a secret place until he is needed once more?

I think that all the Primarchs are based of of some historical figure...

I think the primarchs are based on a certain culture rather than a specific person. They all have aspects of people, but it's not a duplicate.

Absolon wrote:After reading Aurelian and the massive changes in capabilities Lorgar goes through hard not to pick him .
Spoiler alert

Spoiler:

He beats a demon possesed Fulgrim to within an inch of his life, takes control of Horus's body and makes him physically do something as Horus tries to resist and pretty mich scares Magnus because he is now the strongest psychic.

Durza wrote:I think the primarchs are based on a certain culture rather than a specific person. They all have aspects of people, but it's not a duplicate.

Absolon wrote:After reading Aurelian and the massive changes in capabilities Lorgar goes through hard not to pick him .
Spoiler alert

Spoiler:

He beats a demon possesed Fulgrim to within an inch of his life, takes control of Horus's body and makes him physically do something as Horus tries to resist and pretty mich scares Magnus because he is now the strongest psychic.

Spoiler:

I would put that down to Lorgar having just been powered up by the Chaos gods as a reward, while the others were still essentially in their mortal states. And they didn't expect him to suddenly be so powerful.

iproxtaco wrote:

The Son Of Russ wrote:Iproxtaco i thought Russ beat Magnus one on one? i havn't read Thousand Sons or Prospero Burns, but as far as i knew Russ was able to resist Magnus Psychic abilities, and break his back over his knee, do you have quotes to say Magnus was distracted or wasn't totally concentrating on the fight?

They fought at the gates to Magnus's pyramid on Prospero. Fortunately for Russ, Magnus was concentrating on several other more important things whilst fighting his brother. First of all, he was preparing to teleport what remained of the city into the Warp. He was also tearing up the planet using his psychic powers, causing rents in the earth and an electrical storm. At the same time, he was blocking the rest of the Space Wolves, Custodians and Sisters of Silence from entering the pyramid. He formed a huge lake of boiling water between the two armies, frying any Wulfen that tried to cross it. Then of course he had Russ's two gigantic wolves to deal with, which he did. All this time he largely had the upper hand until, as Void_Dragon said, he flailed blindly with his sword after being blinded by a psychic attack, hitting Magnus's one and only weak-spot, his eye. Only then did Russ succeed in winning the battle.

So it wouldn't have been a close fight if Magnus was concentrating on Russ? And basically Russ got extremely lucky by flailing at him? Wow. I don't think i can stomach how much of a pussy Russ was now. So he wasn't any good at all?

He was a brawler, savage and strong, but lacked finesse, unrelenting in his attacks. A cage-fighter wont stop attacking you, but they lack the sam skill of say, a fencer. Magnus was bigger than him, and had his extremely strong psychic powers. If Magnus had his full attentions on Russ I would expect him to win. As it was, he wasn't fully concentrated on Russ, and the fight was more or less equal, with Magnus having the upper-hand overall. Maybe Russ would have eventually won, although at the time of his last lucky attack, Magnus was winning.

Soladrin wrote:

FinalAnswer wrote:

Soladrin wrote:You people are aware that Konrad nearly killed both the Lion and Dorn right?

You are aware Lion was pretty much handing Konrad his ass to him before he managed to tackle and pin him down?

And the Lion was still resisting.

Moot point, the Lion was losing and would most likely have been killed without intervention from captain backstab.

Lion actually was throttling Curze at the same time, so I don't know as to whether or not he would have died, it was simply stated Curze had the advantage.
That said, the fight easily could have gone either way; Curze may never have gotten the chance to tackle Lion, and the Lion would likely have murdered Curze.

That said, it is my opinion that Curze is pretty much on the same level as Lion. This is a dood that made Corax run away like a little girl.

My vote goes for Sanguinius, even though I agree with everything you all said about Horus, Mortarion, Kurze, Fulgrim and such.

CpatTom wrote:If Ward cant bring him back, no one can.

hahaha oh my god. This ^

Lol, CpatTtom!

ANOTHER one of these?

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

Another thread about who is the most powerful primarch. Not that I care as I always enjoy the verbal melee. My vote is for Sanguinius.

andrewm9 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

Another thread about who is the most powerful primarch. Not that I care as I always enjoy the verbal melee. My vote is for Sanguinius.

I wasn't sure you know, considering that..... Oh yeah, the thread was started over a month ago and spans nine pages of discussion. He's a bit late, and feel like being violent, but can't.

iproxtaco wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

Another thread about who is the most powerful primarch. Not that I care as I always enjoy the verbal melee. My vote is for Sanguinius.

I wasn't sure you know, considering that..... Oh yeah, the thread was started over a month ago and spans nine pages of discussion. He's a bit late, and feel like being violent, but can't.

...sorry I don't spend my whole life in front of a computer?

What am I supposed to say to that? What does it contribute?

There is no real contest when it comes to this, Horus wins hands down.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

Another thread about who is the most powerful primarch. Not that I care as I always enjoy the verbal melee. My vote is for Sanguinius.

I wasn't sure you know, considering that..... Oh yeah, the thread was started over a month ago and spans nine pages of discussion. He's a bit late, and feel like being violent, but can't.

...sorry I don't spend my whole life in front of a computer?

What am I supposed to say to that? What does it contribute?

Attempting to smear someone doesn't contribute either, just makes you seem like a jerk.


Anyway, is it most powerful martially, psychically, tactically etc? All of the Primarch's have their own strengths and weaknesses. To pick one as most powerful, would be to ignore the other primarchs traits, which could be superior. I would go with Horus, seeing as he did bring the Imperium to its knees, but then again, he was weak enough to be manipulated in the first place. So I'm picking Ferrus Manus, have to respect someone who goes to war with a frikkin' wrench.

Ferrus Manus used Forgebreaker until Fulgrim took it.

Lol, Fulgrim took it?

Ogryn wrote:Lol, Fulgrim took it?

Took it back, he made it after all. After their confrontation on Ferrus's ship, when Fulgrim tried to sway Ferrus to join the Heresy, Fulgrim beat his brother down, took Forge Breaker, and returned a broken Firesword that Ferrus had just melted with his fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

Another thread about who is the most powerful primarch. Not that I care as I always enjoy the verbal melee. My vote is for Sanguinius.

I wasn't sure you know, considering that..... Oh yeah, the thread was started over a month ago and spans nine pages of discussion. He's a bit late, and feel like being violent, but can't.

...sorry I don't spend my whole life in front of a computer?

What am I supposed to say to that? What does it contribute?

I dunno, maybe "oh yeah, it is a bit late, considering it's gone on for 9 pages and lasted more than a month, stupid comment withdrawn". A blind horse can see you're extremely late with the joke. You can get away with this kind of gak on the first half-page, not the ninth.

Toastedandy wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

andrewm9 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:ANOTHER one of these?

Care to be a bit more specific? Another one of what?

Another thread about who is the most powerful primarch. Not that I care as I always enjoy the verbal melee. My vote is for Sanguinius.

I wasn't sure you know, considering that..... Oh yeah, the thread was started over a month ago and spans nine pages of discussion. He's a bit late, and feel like being violent, but can't.

...sorry I don't spend my whole life in front of a computer?

What am I supposed to say to that? What does it contribute?

Attempting to smear someone doesn't contribute either, just makes you seem like a jerk.


Anyway, is it most powerful martially, psychically, tactically etc? All of the Primarch's have their own strengths and weaknesses. To pick one as most powerful, would be to ignore the other primarchs traits, which could be superior. I would go with Horus, seeing as he did bring the Imperium to its knees, but then again, he was weak enough to be manipulated in the first place. So I'm picking Ferrus Manus, have to respect someone who goes to war with a frikkin' wrench.

Wasn't smearing, was sarcasm in response to his decidedly unsubtle facetiousness.

You know what that means, right? I wasn't joking or being humorous. 9 pages in. 9 pages.

Vulkan, cause he's the Big Black of 40k.

Do Work!

And another vote for Ferrus!

I always thought that picture with the wrench was pretty dumb...Forge Breaker was always described as a thunder hammer, not a big ol' monkey wrench.

Makes Ferrus look like a noob going to war with a monkey wrench....

Aurelian clearly states Magnus is the most powerful, so I guess this topic can end

Soladrin wrote:Aurelian clearly states Magnus is the most powerful, so I guess this topic can end

Huh, it does?

Good to know.

Woot, go Magnus!

Yeah, Lorgar's in a meeting with all the traitors and just flat out states he's the most powerful of all his brothers.

Ogryn wrote:And another vote for Ferrus!

Why do you keep this thread alive?

CpatTom wrote:

Ogryn wrote:And another vote for Ferrus!

Why do you keep this thread alive?

Why not?

Indeed.

This is the most important 40k question ever asked.

iproxtaco wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Ogryn wrote:And another vote for Ferrus!

Why do you keep this thread alive?

Why not?

That is not an answer.

CpatTom wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

CpatTom wrote:

Ogryn wrote:And another vote for Ferrus!

Why do you keep this thread alive?

Why not?

That is not an answer.

Correct, it was a counter question. Why not?

A counter question that does not answer any element of the original question leads to this argument: Why not why?

Where's X to the Z exzibit when you need him?

BrainDeleted wrote:I always thought that picture with the wrench was pretty dumb...Forge Breaker was always described as a thunder hammer, not a big ol' monkey wrench.

Makes Ferrus look like a noob going to war with a monkey wrench....

He is secretly Ratchet

im2randomghgh wrote:

BrainDeleted wrote:I always thought that picture with the wrench was pretty dumb...Forge Breaker was always described as a thunder hammer, not a big ol' monkey wrench.

Makes Ferrus look like a noob going to war with a monkey wrench....

He is secretly Ratchet

Or the Engineer.

SOMEONE"S SAPPIN MY FLUFF!

Anyone got the pic of Ferrus with the wrench?

For suck.

What I'm more worried about in that picture is how shapely and close fitting Fulgrim's leg armour is. It can't be very practical.

Plus Ferrus has an extremely dumb piece of armor that spikes right in front of his line of sight. Literally, he can't see in front of him in that crap.

It just looks like the artist did every thing in his power to make Ferrus look like a chump, complete and total, and Fulgrim look like a girly man...Which he kinda was...But it just makes the battle look ridiculous and one sided instead of epic and Primarch-like.

Fulgrim looks like an Eldar in that picture and Ferrus' weapon looks more like forgeMAKER than forgeBREAKER...because wrenchs fix stuff...

I voted Horus, just for his badassness in the Horus Heresy Books, in 2nd place for me would definatley have to be Angron... and 3rd Mortarion because Plague Marines are my favourite unit.

Leman Russ, he got drunk, chucked his spear at the moon, and made his followers go get it back.

Don't all Space Wolves get drunk? Sure, he may have been a brute, but when it came to real combat, he never stood a chance...

Magnus the Red because he is a Tzeentch sorcerer, yes, and survived having his
spine snapped by Russ.
Plus, he was pretty much the first primarch to lead a legion of psykers who were also marines,
which is a pretty epic combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Fulgrim looks like an Eldar in that picture and Ferrus' weapon looks more like forgeMAKER than forgeBREAKER...because wrenchs fix stuff...

Tell that to the techpriests with power wrench-axes.

Not really. Fulgrim looks like an Eldar/Slaanesh hybrid.

CubeRootRotheo wrote:Magnus the Red because he is a Tzeentch sorcerer, yes, and survived having his
spine snapped by Russ.
Plus, he was pretty much the first primarch to lead a legion of psykers who were also marines,
which is a pretty epic combo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Fulgrim looks like an Eldar in that picture and Ferrus' weapon looks more like forgeMAKER than forgeBREAKER...because wrenchs fix stuff...

Tell that to the techpriests with power wrench-axes.

Sanguinius also survived having his back broken, but by a bloodthirster who's physical strength is undoubtedly more than a primarchs.

From what I understand Horus was the strongest in most ways.

1. Corax suggested only Horus and Sanguinius could best Angron;

2. Leman Russ lost to both the Lion and Angron in combat;

3. Rogan Dorn suggested he could beat Angron and didnt fear him, but still feared the Night Haunter;

4. Night Haunter nearly killed Rogal Dorn;

5. The Lion nearly killed the Night Haunter.

6. Corax fled from the Night Haunter although that doesnt necessarily mean he would have lost to him.

7. Lorgar punched Guilliman in the face so despite Lorgar not being rated as a toughie, he wasnt scared of Guilliman on that occasion.

8. Sanguinius is pretty tough.

All in all in terms of hardness in combat id say that the top would be Horus, Sanguinius, Angron and the Lion. Rogal Dorn, Conrad and Leman Russ honourable seconds...

I'm gonna go ahead and say Guilliman, I could go on about how his legion was the largest (some estimates put them at 300,000 strong), and possibly therefor the most powerful. Or his private empire. Or how he stepped up after the emperor was interred into the golden throne, and actually ran 'sortthisshitout.exe' while the other primarchs were off reconciling their grief with war.

But I think it's telling that when each of the two stricken legions were dissolved, the ultramarines legion grew.

Also Guilliman killed Alpharius, I'm sick of people making excuses about how he's still alive. I know GW has a hard time sticking to one story, but when someone is said to be killed by a primarch... they're dead. And if anyone questions this, what did Alpharius ever do after his fight with Guilliman? Nothing? Because that's usually something primarchs don't take part in unless they're dead.

The Lion.

He's been gathering his minerals for a while now...

Reported for Necromancy.


Really though, there's not really a "most powerful" Primarch: they were all roughly about level and capable of defeating one-another. This views been touted by the Black Library authors quite a lot, as I recall.
Unless you're referring to strength, in which case, that's Vulkan.

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.