Just read it and I don't know what to say. To me it seems that threat from Necrons will not be so big after all. Now they seems more like the Tau then Tyranids.
What is your opinion? ( And yes, Blood Angels/Necron alliance was true alliance since they now have civilizations and every tomb world is empire for itself. They even trade with other races )
I think he means 'alliance' in the sense that it was two forces working together and then both sides rationally deciding to part ways without further bloodshed.
Something that makes sense given what we've seen of the new fluff, but is straight pants-on-head if the Necrons were still the immortal omnicidal robots of old.
iproxtaco wrote:Read the codex first please. All we have are small snippets. And no, it was not a true 'alliance'.
Uh....codex is coming out 5'th November..this is leaked fluff information...And according to rumors it is true alliance since Necrons now are allying with other races for their own personal goals...
Except, they didn't work together. All they did was stop fighting each other to fight a common enemy. There was no team-work or coordination between the two forces. It was only after they defeated the Tyranids that they parted ways to prevent from being destroyed. It was not a matter of respect or friendship, Dante knew he and his forces would be better off alive to fight another day than dead on an anonymous battlefield achieving nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Read the codex first please. All we have are small snippets. And no, it was not a true 'alliance'.
Uh....codex is coming out 5'th November..this is leaked fluff information...And according to rumors it is true alliance since Necrons now are allying with other races for their own personal goals...
Read the the codex please. ALL WE HAVE ARE SMALL SNIPPETS. And according to rumours, the fluff remains exactly the same. Two sides stop fighting to ensure their own survival. Nothing changes.
According to new fluff rumors the Necrons now actually trade with other races.
... On another note, I just read Black Crusade, which came out not even a month ago. Noticed it had Necrons in it. I thought that was kewl.
Read some of the fluff. I couldn't help but notice that the C'tan are apparently in charge.
I'm personally taking that as a sign that the rumors may be wrong. Of course it could also be that GW just doesn't give a gak about what FFG does, and didn't bother to tell them they were retconning the gak out of the Necrons.
You could make an argument that the BA-Necron fight against the Tyranids wasn't a true alliance under the old Codex. Not anymore though, Necrons now have a sense of honor and will spare those they consider worthy opponents. They trade with other races, there's basically no more C'tan, and they're territorial empires.
Necrons have been dethroned as an uncompromising unstoppable Galactic threat alongside the Tyranids. Really it's incredible how utterly destroyed they were in the fluff, great new models and a more varied army aside. Now let us just pray the 6th Ed. Tyranid dex doesn't make them have a sense of honor and market economy....
iproxtaco wrote:Read the codex first please. All we have are small snippets. And no, it was not a true 'alliance'.
Uh....codex is coming out 5'th November
That was his point. Arguing the fluff based on some opinions of a few who have seen it is sheer stupidity, even considering that we're arguing about 40k fluff. Wait for the book, argue then.
I would love something less linear than the Necrons of 3rd edition... and I long ago called variation/competition within the Necrons, more hopefully than certainly... and would love for that to play out
iproxtaco wrote:Except, they didn't work together. All they did was stop fighting each other to fight a common enemy. There was no team-work or coordination between the two forces. It was only after they defeated the Tyranids that they parted ways to prevent from being destroyed. It was not a matter of respect or friendship, Dante knew he and his forces would be better off alive to fight another day than dead on an anonymous battlefield achieving nothing.
Man the second print run mist have a BUNCH of fixed errata in the fluff. Can you point out the page numbers or post the text where it specifically says there was no team work or coordination between the BAs and Necs?
No? Then /brofist.
Because I choose to interpret that alliance, really did mea alliance. And that "final battle" implied battles before that were fought, wherein the BA and Necs used a coordinated strategy and in fact held hands in a red and steel lovemesh of awesomeness.
My interpretation is as equally supported by the actual fluff as yours.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Eagerly awaiting the Necron codex, where if this particular issue is not resolved. Mat Ward will be the target of endless nerdrage.
I hate this fluff so much already. It's fething ridiculous. Necrons with a sense of market economy?
Oh, and every necron lord is out for himself but the C'tan seem to controlling everything. Now that just doesn't make any sense. If they're controlling everything, then why would they make every necron lord an individualistic git?
And working with living races just goes against all the fluff ever written in any edition about necrons. Who wrote this crap?
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I hate this fluff so much already. It's fething ridiculous. Necrons with a sense of market economy?
Oh, and every necron lord is out for himself but the C'tan seem to controlling everything. Now that just doesn't make any sense. If they're controlling everything, then why would they make every necron lord an individualistic git?
And working with living races just goes against all the fluff ever written in any edition about necrons. Who wrote this crap?
The Ctan controlls nothing. They are all pretty much dead, killed by the Necrons and now kept in interdimensional prisons. Sometimes the Necrons takes out their pet Ctan to help them in a battle but really, the CTan are the Necrons bitches these days
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I hate this fluff so much already. It's fething ridiculous. Necrons with a sense of market economy?
Oh, and every necron lord is out for himself but the C'tan seem to controlling everything. Now that just doesn't make any sense. If they're controlling everything, then why would they make every necron lord an individualistic git?
And working with living races just goes against all the fluff ever written in any edition about necrons. Who wrote this crap?
The Ctan controlls nothing. They are all pretty much dead, killed by the Necrons and now kept in interdimensional prisons. Sometimes the Necrons takes out their pet Ctan to help them in a battle but really, the CTan are the Necrons bitches these days
Gah. This fluff is still terrible. I'm going to buy the new models and play by the old fluff... meh
It's kind of bad, from the small snippets around it sounds like they wanted to stop being like the Tyranids and decided they'd rather try to be Dark Eldar with a dash of Tomb Kings in space.
Guys, chill. Codex aint even out yet, and you're already blowing this out of proportions.
It's just the one Necron empire that still believes in honour and glory. It's just the one Necron empire that conducts trade with other races. It's just the one Necron empire that wants hugs and kisses for all.
But that's all rumours cause the codex is still not even out, leaked or not.
Regardless, your Necrons are still the soulless, killing machines they've always been. If you dont like their new personalities, pretend your Necron Empire had their minds wiped or corrupted. According to the rumours, there's fluff support for that as well.
So chill, and wait. Like the Necrons you all wish you still had.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
I hate this fluff so much already. It's fething ridiculous. Necrons with a sense of market economy?
Don't play dumb. If the Necrons are trading technology, its obviously not for money. It's more likely for favors and information. Stuff like that.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Oh, and every necron lord is out for himself but the C'tan seem to controlling everything. Now that just doesn't make any sense. If they're controlling everything, then why would they make every necron lord an individualistic git?
Only a few extremely unfortunate Necrons are still under the control of the C'tan. The Necrons splintered the star gods before they went into hibernation. And Necron Lords have shown individuality before.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
And working with living races just goes against all the fluff ever written in any edition about necrons.
The only people who liked the Necrons lore were Necron fans (Emperor soothe their rage). I sympathize with people like Void_Dragon who loved to Necrons for what they were, but I personally see this as an improvement.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Who wrote this crap?
Matthew Ward. You haven't heard already from the baying?
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Gah. This fluff is still terrible. I'm going to buy the new models and play by the old fluff... meh
Certainly doable. I've heard there are still Necron tombs under the control of C'tan fragments, and as Ronin said, there are tombs which have been reduced to mindless machines controlled by protocol.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
And working with living races just goes against all the fluff ever written in any edition about necrons.
The only people who liked the Necrons lore were Necron fans (Emperor soothe their rage). I sympathize with people like Void_Dragon who loved to Necrons for what they were, but I personally see this as an improvement.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:
Who wrote this crap?
Matthew Ward. You haven't heard already from the baying?
I loved the previous necron fluff. It was one of the main reasons why I even started this hobby.
-Loki- wrote:People shocked at the change in direction for the fluff should go read the 2nd edition Tyranid codex.
I started playing with the 3rd edition -.-
What change was THAT radical? I mean, if the rumour are true..bleh
First they changed the Necrons from this Deus Ex Machina Horror to a playable race and killed the myth around them, and now this..
Emperor be damned, i hope those rumours are just rumours, and nothing of this gak will be put in there...
On the other hand, Uriel Ventris just went from "chasing away a GOD" to "chasing away a pet"..kinda sad xD
I like the new fluff. I actually might consider starting a 'cron army with lore like this.
These crons? They have personality and flavor. I wish they had stuck more with the old flavor a bit visually speaking ,but I can dig the new stuff, especially since it's easy to modify plastic models anyway.
Void__Dragon wrote:According to new fluff rumors the Necrons now actually trade with other races.
... On another note, I just read Black Crusade, which came out not even a month ago. Noticed it had Necrons in it. I thought that was kewl.
Read some of the fluff. I couldn't help but notice that the C'tan are apparently in charge.
I'm personally taking that as a sign that the rumors may be wrong. Of course it could also be that GW just doesn't give a gak about what FFG does, and didn't bother to tell them they were retconning the gak out of the Necrons.
I choose not to believe the rumours of this new direction in the background, on the basis that they are rumours and ones that I really do not like. It's good to see a little bit of hope that the Necrons might still be what actually defines them in the fluff. Instead of repeating everything I said before in the compilation thread, I'll just quote my post:
The Necrons are also alien in that they are supposed to be the ultimate embodiment of order. Having individual Necron empires and Lords with different motivations contridicts the entire purpose of the race. If this rumour turns out to be true (which I choose not to believe) they will not be that. They will not be uniform, they will not be unified. This is actually more on par to Chaos. The necrons will lose that aspect that makes them what they are in the background. Absolute, unadulterated, oppresssive order in its purest form to the point of no free will is very chilling and frightening to me, and the Necrons could be just as interesting by expanding on this existing background.
TBH, all this change would still be okay with me if they leave the C'tan where they've always been; the Star Gods of the galaxy's dawn, preying on these lesser infant races with their legions of undead. The C'tan don't really have to be retconned for this change. Overlords can still have their own personalities but their free will and allegiance ultimately belongs to the Star Gods. I understand with these rumours that there still are some Lords like this, but that approach feels too ragtag and chaotic, and again is best done for the minions of Chaos. A good reason for Necrons to fight each other might be their allegances to different C'tan, as they were bitter rivals and ended eating each other anyway, so it would make a lot of sense if their servants warred against one another for their gods.
If this rumoured new direction does turn out to be true in the end, I might just ignore the new fluff and pretend it never happened. It would be bearable though if GW do not touch the C'tan. Instead of copying Khaine, couldn't their models just be what they did in DoW? And why is it so necessary for the Necrons to enslave their own gods for them be more interesting characters? The price for their reincarnation was their ultimate free will, their liberation also their slavery. This ironic tragedy is what makes their story so compelling.
Deathly Angel wrote:If this rumoured new direction does turn out to be true in the end, I might just ignore the new fluff and pretend it never happened. It would be bearable though if GW do not touch the C'tan. Instead of copying Khaine, couldn't their models just be what they did in DoW?
I'm doing the same. I started the hobby by getting into necrons. I'm going to keep to the old fluff
The best part of the new Necron codex rumors is that they consider the Eldar their greatest foe, because it's nice for the Eldar to have some power in the fluff rather than being every new codex's chewtoy.
-Loki- wrote:
That was his point. Arguing the fluff based on some opinions of a few who have seen it is sheer stupidity, even considering that we're arguing about 40k fluff. Wait for the book, argue then.
I am not arguing, I am just asking what everybody opinion is... I actually love the new Necrons, they have more spirit now then before.
-Loki- wrote:
That was his point. Arguing the fluff based on some opinions of a few who have seen it is sheer stupidity, even considering that we're arguing about 40k fluff. Wait for the book, argue then.
I am not arguing, I am just asking what everybody opinion is... I actually love the new Necrons, they have more spirit now then before.
-Loki- wrote:
That was his point. Arguing the fluff based on some opinions of a few who have seen it is sheer stupidity, even considering that we're arguing about 40k fluff. Wait for the book, argue then.
I am not arguing, I am just asking what everybody opinion is... I actually love the new Necrons, they have more spirit now then before.
Then people shouldn't form opinions on FETHING RUMOURS. Things like this stick on the internet.
Myself and our resident Necron player are excited about the new fluff, we like the idea of the Lords having personalities and leading armies of mindless robots. It adds a little more character and allows the player a little more customization in their army, same as every other army out there.
n0t_u wrote:It's kind of bad, from the small snippets around it sounds like they wanted to stop being like the Tyranids and decided they'd rather try to be Dark Eldar with a dash of Tomb Kings in space.
Not even Dark Eldar. They're more similar to Craftworld Eldar now. Specifically Biel-Tan.
The new fluff puts them on the forces of order in the Galaxy alongside the Imperium, Tau, Eldar. The Tyranids/Orks/Dark Eldar/Chaos are the forces of disorder.
I shall withhold judgement until I read the Codex, but I have to say I'm not impressed so far. Though the Necrons' concept encompasses some decent ideas, its execution has always looked clumsy and tacked-on, and these retcons aren't going to change that.
The current codex has some problems but I thought it was very atmospheric. It was the main reason I ended up deciding to get into the hobby with Necrons recently.
I'm not so sure about how I feel about some of the rumors thus far but I'll hold out judgment until I have the new codex in my hands. I hope at least the Void Dragon fluff doesn't change too much.
To be honest, I'll be glad whatever we get for the necrons. I mean, I love the buggers, but having them be the UNSTOPPABLE race of UNSTOPPABLE robots UNSTOPPABLY being UNSTOPPABLE while they UNSTOPPABLY carry out mysterious and UNSTOPPABLE plans, well, it started to grate after a while.
iproxtaco wrote:
Then people shouldn't form opinions on FETHING RUMOURS. Things like this stick on the internet.
Shush....calm down man ( talking about nerd rage ). There are not rumors, but leaked info from new codex. Just like new model pictures and new army list.
I would be skeptic to if the codex is not like 2 weeks away from release.
iproxtaco wrote: Then people shouldn't form opinions on FETHING RUMOURS. Things like this stick on the internet.
Shush....calm down man ( talking about nerd rage ). There are not rumors, but leaked info from new codex. Just like new model pictures and new army list. I would be skeptic to if the codex is not like 2 weeks away from release.
The king of fanboys tells me to calm down, I'm shocked. I'm surprised you didn't accuse me of being a dirty chaos worshiper. It's also not nerd-rage, but your unfamiliarity with things like trolls and other internet phenomena, means you're excused this time. Anyway, my point stands firm. The codex hasn't even been announced yet, and already people will form opinions on whether or not to buy the codex. Saying it sounds cool or not is fine, but giving an opinion that is apparently a finality, is idiotic.
iproxtaco wrote:
The king of fanboys tells me to calm down, I'm shocked. I'm surprised you didn't accuse me of being a dirty chaos worshiper. It's also not nerd-rage, but your unfamiliarity with things like trolls and other internet phenomena, means you're excused this time.
Wow, talking about nerd rage and hate to... you really should take a cold beer and lay off for few days. And swearing + big letters sounds like nerd rage to me.
iproxtaco wrote: The king of fanboys tells me to calm down, I'm shocked. I'm surprised you didn't accuse me of being a dirty chaos worshiper. It's also not nerd-rage, but your unfamiliarity with things like trolls and other internet phenomena, means you're excused this time.
Wow, talking about nerd rage and hate to... you really should take a cold beer and lay off for few days. And swearing + big letters sounds like nerd rage to me.
Continue really, I like people going down the road of persistence. But anyway, I'll explain a little bit about "nerd-rage". It's this thing where people get really angry about things within the context of what could be said to be "nerdy". To give an example, Void_Dragon says something negative about the Imperium, Brother Coa spends two pages trolling, getting really angry because his faction has been insulted, and irrationally insulting Void_Dragon by calling him a "brain-dead zombie robot", because he likes Necrons. That's nerd-rage. My rage was normal rage, because sometimes I really can't take your willful ignorance.
You spelled 'holy' wrong in your location. People have pointed this out many times before.
Ironically, this is devolving into nerd-rage, bowing out before the faction specific insults start to fly.
iproxtaco wrote: Continue really, I like people going down the road of persistence. But anyway, I'll explain a little bit about "nerd-rage". It's this thing where people get really angry about things within the context of what could be said to be "nerdy". To give an example, Void_Dragon says something negative about the Imperium, Brother Coa spends two pages trolling, getting really angry because his faction has been insulted, and irrationally insulting Void_Dragon by calling him a "brain-dead zombie robot", because he likes Necrons. That's nerd-rage. My rage was normal rage, because sometimes I really can't take your willful ignorance sometimes.
Oh...good. Anyway I stooped doing that since all here are to "serious". And these rumors were posted by men from White Dwarf, that is solid enough to point out that rumors are at least 80% true. And M.W. was writing it, I knew that he would fix them as hard as he can.
iproxtaco wrote:Wait, you're saying you stopped because others were too serious? Well that's just ridiculous.
You should then see our Facebook 40k group. My ranting is nothing compared toward there, it's all good fun. To bad people here are to serious.
No. Just.....no. It's blindingly obvious that you're trying brush things under the carpet by saying you weren't serious. You were being very serious in the cases I remember.
The new fluff puts them on the forces of order in the Galaxy alongside the Imperium, Tau, Eldar. The Tyranids/Orks/Dark Eldar/Chaos are the forces of disorder.
So 6th is order vs disorder.....
All welcome our ne (w) crons
But basically, the necrons and science and logic...they never were on the side of disorder.
English Assassin wrote:I shall withhold judgement until I read the Codex, but I have to say I'm not impressed so far. Though the Necrons' concept encompasses some decent ideas, its execution has always looked clumsy and tacked-on, and these retcons aren't going to change that.
Me too. Want to read the fluff myself first.
The concepts in 5th aren't bad, but the execution regularly sucks.
DeffDred wrote: Clearly the Necrons are the coolest thing ever!
This codex will be awesome. Maybe the Necrons will use some tech to help the Emperor get back on his feet.
Dragon and Emperor brofist. Nice.
fixed it.
Heard of the new technical help-line? 1-1-1 n-e-c-r-o-n They fix everything , for a price.
Failing golden toilets?
Actually given what the Necrons are like now, I see GW has a loophole to fix the Golden Throne's failings. Necrons could be used to fix it, the Emperor is worthy of respect after all.
Though the problem now is the Imperium would never accept that help now I guess.
Necronia is the 40K equivalent of China Now they have levelled up and have embraced capitalism.
Crons will be making all the Bolters for the Imperium and now can afford to go shopping. That's why the Al Fayed One's are walking funny, they are looking for bargains in the Harrod's January Sale's.
I'd rather see Trezyn loot it for his collection, and the imperium fall into civil war
Ward has created a blag for his Grey Knights to be doing the impossible though. They are using Necron tech traded for Draizo Action figures (with New Heart Carving Action Move)
(batteries not included, entering the Warp makes all warranties void)
flota wrote:so in the end it really went like this:
what happened to the fluff we all loved?
If you are going to cite something, be correct in citing.
That is NOT how it went. That has nothing whatsofethingever to do with how it went. It's an asinine, childish image that gets posted every freaking day upon this forum by people who think they're clever.
It was funny the first time. You're now in the realm of not just beating the dead horse, you're mounting it and trying to ride it to the shop because you think it's still alive.
It's not funny, and it hasn't been funny or witty or clever for almost two years now.
As a Necron fan, I really hate that image as well.
Not because of the fluff that inspired it, but because, as Kanluwen said, it's posted all the fething time whenever Necrons or Blood Angels are brought up. Or when Ward is brought up in general.
No, it's just brought up whenever someone wants to whine about GW these days.
They act as if these kinds of silly things did not happen before. I've said, multiple times now, that since the Eye of Terror book the Necrons have been an evolving concept.
They did not attack Space Marine or Imperial Guard or Inquisitorial forces during the fluff surrounding that event, unless they got in the way. There's been precedent since the days of Andy Chambers, who wrote the fricking fluff which established the precedent.
I've heard the Necrons are going to have a masseuse character to rub high grade oill onto crons suffering from metal fatigue. It is said she will have some buffing abilities.
Kanluwen wrote:No, it's just brought up whenever someone wants to whine about GW these days.
They act as if these kinds of silly things did not happen before. I've said, multiple times now, that since the Eye of Terror book the Necrons have been an evolving concept.
They did not attack Space Marine or Imperial Guard or Inquisitorial forces during the fluff surrounding that event, unless they got in the way. There's been precedent since the days of Andy Chambers, who wrote the fricking fluff which established the precedent.
Yeah, the piece is blown out of proportion. Necrons fighting a larger force and ignoring a smaller one is reasonable enough. And while Dante not wanting to fight a xenos he had just allied with could be considered stupid, or even borderline heretical, he is not the only chapter master to of done so. Calgar allowed the Tau he was fighting to evacuate before he destroyed a Necron Tomb World that they just got done fighting off.
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Necronia is the 40K equivalent of China
Now they have levelled up and have embraced capitalism.
Crons will be making all the Bolters for the Imperium and now can afford to go shopping.
That's why the Al Fayed One's are walking funny, they are looking for bargains in the Harrod's January Sale's.
I am glad I'm not the only one who thought the Necron Lords' Egyptian bling looked a bit Al-Fayed.
Harriticus wrote:Actually given what the Necrons are like now, I see GW has a loophole to fix the Golden Throne's failings. Necrons could be used to fix it, the Emperor is worthy of respect after all.
Though the problem now is the Imperium would never accept that help now I guess.
The Golden Throne is tech to do with the Warp. The Necrons still don't like the Warp, and can't fathom it. Loophole closed.
Melissia wrote:I like the new fluff. I actually might consider starting a 'cron army with lore like this.
These crons? They have personality and flavor. I wish they had stuck more with the old flavor a bit visually speaking ,but I can dig the new stuff, especially since it's easy to modify plastic models anyway.
Randomonioum wrote:To be honest, I'll be glad whatever we get for the necrons. I mean, I love the buggers, but having them be the UNSTOPPABLE race of UNSTOPPABLE robots UNSTOPPABLY being UNSTOPPABLE while they UNSTOPPABLY carry out mysterious and UNSTOPPABLE plans, well, it started to grate after a while.
Exactly. Fluff like that is reserved for space marines.
1hadhq wrote:But basically, the necrons and science and logic...they never were on the side of disorder.
I agree with this.
They were order in its purest form. The absence of free will, of life itself.
Really I meant order vs disorder more as in which factions seek the existence of civilized to semi-civilized functioning societies. I mean while the Imperium is bad, it doesn't shake a stick at what people go through on a Daemon World and is much more stable then any Ork world. Ork worlds are basically GTA-IV Multiplayer. The Necrons wanted to end all life, and this really was a dramatic shakeup of the status quo and of the concept of societies itself. It's why I put them in the pure villain category along with the Chaos/Ork/DE/Tyranids.
Now though the Necrons are a civilization and series of nations, which is why I think they should be put in the same category as the Imperium/Tau/Eldar and are coming off more as misunderstood. In the current fluff the Imperium really is probably responsible for conflict with the Necrons or were just in the wrong place at the wrong time (like Eldar attacks on the Imperium) whereas before the Necrons were seeking Mankinds destruction.
Asherian Command wrote:I want the necrons to be awesome. I want them to destroy the C'tan...
That can't be possible without nerfing the C'tan though. It doesn't make the Necrons look good, it makes the C'tan look weak.
A single C'tan can destroy solar systems on a whim, create civilizations under their own power, bend the fabric of time and space and transmute matter on an atomic level.
If the Necrons were capable of destroying an entire race of such beings, that would make them far and away the most powerful faction in the setting.
So for this to make sense, the C'tan have to be completely neutered.
Brother Coa wrote:Well according to these rumors...after they finished with the Old Ones Necrons destroyed the C'Tan. Only shards of them remained across the galaxy.
Broken into Shards =/= destroyed
The C'tan can never be destroyed, they can only be weakened.
Why do you think the Necrons are so anxious in finding them all?
mr.ultramarine wrote: I really don't think that necrons should be trading or allying. I thought they were mindless soulless race that destroys everything?
mr.ultramarine wrote: I really don't think that necrons should be trading or allying. I thought they were mindless soulless race that destroys everything?
They're not, really.
The Tyranids want to eat the galaxy.
The Necrons were going to turn the galaxy into an eternal fast-food restaurant for their gods.
The Tyranids are absolute disorder, spreading and consuming all.
The Necrons are absolute order, the stillness of the Void.
The similarity was intentional, IMO, so that they could be two sides of the same coin.
If you want your Necrons to be soulless killing machines doing the bidding of their Ct'an master, then do it. Now they have a shard of the master. Just say they're reclaiming all the shards so they can bring him back. There's nothing stopping you doing that.
The fact that the entire race is not doing this makes your army no different. Your armies fluff can still be about necrons that are just like that. However, this opens the door, and makes them less Star Trek-villainy, where the entire bad race is commited to the one goal. Now they're more like an actual race, so people who want to do something different can do it. Want Necrons that trade with humans? Do it. Want Necrons that want to bring back the glory of the old days? Do it.
-Loki- wrote:If you want your Necrons to be soulless killing machines doing the bidding of their Ct'an master, then do it. Now they have a shard of the master. Just say they're reclaiming all the shards so they can bring him back. There's nothing stopping you doing that.
The fact that the entire race is not doing this makes your army no different. Your armies fluff can still be about necrons that are just like that. However, this opens the door, and makes them less Star Trek-villainy, where the entire bad race is commited to the one goal. Now they're more like an actual race, so people who want to do something different can do it. Want Necrons that trade with humans? Do it. Want Necrons that want to bring back the glory of the old days? Do it.
See here's the the thing: I don't care about the tabletop as much as I do the background.
I know I am very much a minority in that opinion(And as such am probably not really the audience 40k cares about when making the codices), but I prefer reading about the background, and would like to get around to playing the FFGRPGs. I find the tabletop to be a fairly poor outlet for crafting a story, your own "fluff" if you will. That's just how I feel.
And now every Necron appearance in BL or whatever after this codex hits the shelves will be influenced by the fluff in the codex.
I don't fault anyone for having a different opinion than mine, or likes the new fluff, but nor am I obligated to like the fluff in the Necron codex.
Also, I'm still much too butthurt about the C'tan being neutered and made into the new Khaine of the setting. Nor do I really think some of the changes were necessary to do what they wanted to do. The overall theme is gone. IMO, based on the rumors, the new Necrons are Necrons in name only.
-Loki- wrote:If you want your Necrons to be soulless killing machines doing the bidding of their Ct'an master, then do it. Now they have a shard of the master. Just say they're reclaiming all the shards so they can bring him back. There's nothing stopping you doing that.
The fact that the entire race is not doing this makes your army no different. Your armies fluff can still be about necrons that are just like that. However, this opens the door, and makes them less Star Trek-villainy, where the entire bad race is commited to the one goal. Now they're more like an actual race, so people who want to do something different can do it. Want Necrons that trade with humans? Do it. Want Necrons that want to bring back the glory of the old days? Do it.
See here's the the thing: I don't care about the tabletop as much as I do the background.
I know I am very much a minority in that opinion(And as such am probably not really the audience 40k cares about when making the codices), but I prefer reading about the background, and would like to get around to playing the FFGRPGs. I find the tabletop to be a fairly poor outlet for crafting a story, your own "fluff" if you will. That's just how I feel.
And now every Necron appearance in BL or whatever after this codex hits the shelves will be influenced by the fluff in the codex.
I don't fault anyone for having a different opinion than mine, or likes the new fluff, but nor am I obligated to like the fluff in the Necron codex.
Also, I'm still much too butthurt about the C'tan being neutered and made into the new Khaine of the setting. Nor do I really think some of the changes were necessary to do what they wanted to do. The overall theme is gone. IMO, based on the rumors, the new Necrons are Necrons in name only.
Yeah that's something a lot of people claiming that this gave the Necrons more "identity" and made them more separate from the Tyranids don't really seem to get. Yeah, Necrons aren't like Tyranids at all anymore whereas they were similar in many respects before (ultimate killing machine baddies out to end all life). But now instead of being like the Tyranids, the Necrons now resemble the Craftworld Eldar the most and I think this is done deliberately, even going down to the fate of the C'tan or what have you.
A.) They're mostly seeking to hold onto their old dying empire
B.) Will fight the Imperium if encroached upon, but also will trade/reason/work with other factions when faced with a greater threat
C.) Old ancient race with advanced technology and a history with the Old Ones
D.) Split up into self-governing realms
Thus the Necrons didn't really move away from being like any other race. They're not Tyranids anymore, but now they're just scarier looking Eldar. Dark Eldar come off as a bigger threat to the Imperium now, which is ironic as last week people put the Necrons in league with the Tyranids as the biggest threat to the galaxy.
Part of the grimdark of 40k was that mankind is facing unstoppable oblivion. This was not just because of the constant wars with the Orks or Chaos, but also because these new radical threats like the Tyranids and Necrons were emerging. Now, really the only threat to mankinds survival is the Tyranids.
Harriticus wrote:Yeah that's something a lot of people claiming that this gave the Necrons more "identity" and made them more separate from the Tyranids don't really seem to get. Yeah, Necrons aren't like Tyranids at all anymore whereas they were similar in many respects before (ultimate killing machine baddies out to end all life). But now instead of being like the Tyranids, the Necrons now resemble the Craftworld Eldar the most and I think this is done deliberately, even going down to the fate of the C'tan or what have you.
Now that you mention it, you have a point.
Necrons are now "Even older Eldar that are robots."
Lol...
Oh, I guess they are different in that they are masters of the material sciences, rather than the Immaterial.
Harriticus wrote:Part of the grimdark of 40k was that mankind is facing unstoppable oblivion. This was not just because of the constant wars with the Orks or Chaos, but also because these new radical threats like the Tyranids and Necrons were emerging. Now, really the only threat to mankinds survival is the Tyranids.
And Orks, and Chaos ,and itself...
Actually Orks really pose a greater threat (And as a result take up more of the Imperium's resources) than the Tyranids do.
The main (arguably only good point) is It means players can do more cool themed armies. They could do them before but now it means they can be done without the uneasy feeling of Un-canon heresy.
This is a miniature-making hobby so i suppose anything that guarantees more freedom to personalise your army is all that matters.
My sci-fi nerd side Hates it though, the Necrons were thematically interesting. Now their theme is kinda lost.
Harriticus wrote:Part of the grimdark of 40k was that mankind is facing unstoppable oblivion. This was not just because of the constant wars with the Orks or Chaos, but also because these new radical threats like the Tyranids and Necrons were emerging. Now, really the only threat to mankinds survival is the Tyranids.
And Orks, and Chaos ,and itself...
Actually Orks really pose a greater threat (And as a result take up more of the Imperium's resources) than the Tyranids do.
Unless the Orks unite they won't go beyond localized Sub-Sector level threats. They can cause massively destructive wars that can last decades and kill billions, but they won't be able to do anything more unless they were to unite. Which of course won't ever happen.
Chaos can't get past the Cadian Gate and has been doing the same thing it has been for 10,000 years. I agree they should be a greater threat but GW will be GW. Really before only the Necrons and Tyranids came off as galactic-level threats.
You could always do themed armies with Necrons... Every army had a way of explaining a particularly themed army... With Necrons it was always the 'damaged tombworld' thing but it never came up that much since very few people collected them.
purplefood wrote:You could always do themed armies with Necrons...
Every army had a way of explaining a particularly themed army...
With Necrons it was always the 'damaged tombworld' thing but it never came up that much since very few people collected them.
Yes, and that's a problem and a weak solution. Before the Necrons were a galactic level threat. A malfunctioning tombworld that still behaved like machines out to harvest life instead of a misunderstood market-economy civilization still would just be a local threat, not anything galactic. 1 Tomb World would do little and just be another bloody war for the Imperium, but the result would be inevitable and little more would come of it.
purplefood wrote:You could always do themed armies with Necrons...
Every army had a way of explaining a particularly themed army...
With Necrons it was always the 'damaged tombworld' thing but it never came up that much since very few people collected them.
Yes, and that's a problem and a weak solution. Before the Necrons were a galactic level threat. A malfunctioning tombworld that still behaved like machines out to harvest life instead of a misunderstood market-economy civilization still would just be a local threat, not anything galactic. 1 Tomb World would do little and just be another bloody war for the Imperium, but the result would be inevitable and little more would come of it.
In the previous fluff i thought it worked quite well...
Every Lord in a Tomb world had a duty, if the tomb was damaged in some way he would simply keep going about this duty no matter what and with the next best availible resources he could. Now... not so much...
Melissia wrote:That happens all the time. There's many, many warbosses and warlords over the galaxy taht unite in sector-threatening WAAAGH!s.
I meant truly unite. As in all or at least most Orks in the Galaxy unite as a unified Waaagh! Of course that is never going to happen, it'd be unfluffy of the Orks and GW wouldn't have it.
Stop equating Chaos with Chaos Whinyboy Marines..
The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat. Daemonic incursions are limited to the vagaries of the Warp and heretic forces will always crumble without proper leadership.
Harriticus wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat.
Yeah, except no.
For example:
Chaos-- WITHOUT the whinyboy marines-- reconquered the sector containing the Sabbat Worlds after Sabbat's death. In the second crusade, even WITH the re-appearance of Sabbat, they're still putting up a damned good fight.
Harriticus wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat. Daemonic incursions are limited to the vagaries of the Warp and heretic forces will always crumble without proper leadership.
What? The Chaos Gods are only interested in the affairs of mankind, since we weeded out most of the warp vulnerable aliens in the crusade. Even Slaanesh doesn't pay as much attention to influencing the Eldar as it does to the humans, mostly because the two kinds of Eldar both have protection from it.
And there's been plenty of heretical non CSM movements that haven't crumbled, just as there's been plenty of CSM groups that crumbled (The Emperor's Children and World Eaters, for starters). The vast majority of Chaos forces are the Lost and the Damned.
I always thought more would eb made of the Saint coming back...
I mean, the Tanith 1st were practically her chosen regiment. They have her blessing, they defended her remains and they defended her reincarnation and to cap it all off one of their own is her bodyguard...
But they get assigned to flank actions rather than the 'frontline' as it were...
Harriticus wrote:The Chaos Gods aren't all that concerned with the affairs of mankind, so without the CSM they'll never be that big a threat. Daemonic incursions are limited to the vagaries of the Warp and heretic forces will always crumble without proper leadership.
What? The Chaos Gods are only interested in the affairs of mankind, since we weeded out most of the warp vulnerable aliens in the crusade. Even Slaanesh doesn't pay as much attention to influencing the Eldar as it does to the humans, mostly because the two kinds of Eldar both have protection from it.
And there's been plenty of heretical non CSM movements that haven't crumbled, just as there's been plenty of CSM groups that crumbled (The Emperor's Children and World Eaters, for starters). The vast majority of Chaos forces are the Lost and the Damned.
Nah, they aren't. Even the Horus Heresy garnered but a moment of their attentions. The Great Game is what the Gods and their Daemonic servants are concerned about, they only come together for moments of great concern, and those moments are fleeting. Look to the Daemons of Chaos codex for more.
Chaos-- WITHOUT the whinyboy marines-- reconquered the sector containing the Sabbat Worlds after Sabbat's death. In the second crusade, even WITH the re-appearance of Sabbat, they're still putting up a damned good fight.
And with the "whinyboy marines" as you call them, they laid the Imperium low and the Emperor was confined to a chair for ten thousand years.
Without the Chaos Marines, the Horus Heresy couldn't of happened.
Abaddon is considered to be the greatest threat to the Imperium, the only reason he gets stopped at Cadia (Not that all of his Crusades involved getting past it) is because the Imperium defends the Cadian Gate more than it does anywhere else.
The Chaos Marines are the most hated and among the most dangerous of Chaos' servants. This is canon, your own rather weird bias against them notwithstanding.
Chaos marines are a big threat to the galaxy as well, without them constantly coming through the eye of terror and trying to take cadia, than the Imperiums resources could be spread out more, thus lessening the threat of say, the 'nids...
Void__Dragon wrote:Without the Chaos Marines, the Horus Heresy couldn't of happened.
So? Chaos would have found another way to try to stop the Emperor's meteoric rise in power. It wouldn't have been called the Horus Heresy because there wouldn't be any Horus, but it'd still have happened.
The "I'm 10,000 years old and angry at my dad" marines were just the tools that happened to be in the right place at the right time to do the job, and weak enough of will that they succumbed to Chaos.
Melissia wrote:So? Chaos would have found another way to try to stop the Emperor's meteoric rise in power. It wouldn't have been called the Horus Heresy because there wouldn't be any Horus, but it'd still have happened.
The "I'm 10,000 years old and angry at my dad" marines were just the tools that happened to be in the right place at the right time to do the job, and weak enough of will that they succumbed to Chaos.
How so? The Primarchs were the most effective tools Chaos could use, and they couldn't do anything to the Emperor himself directly. He was too strong, in the Materium beyond their reach, and was psychically devastating their Realm. Which is why the Horus Heresy was instigated.
Most Traitor Marines rebelled because their loyalty for their Primarch was greater than their loyalty to the Emperor. They are angry at the Imperium for a variety of reasons, or, as is more often the case, they are just insane.
Melissia wrote:So? Chaos would have found another way to try to stop the Emperor's meteoric rise in power. It wouldn't have been called the Horus Heresy because there wouldn't be any Horus, but it'd still have happened.
The "I'm 10,000 years old and angry at my dad" marines were just the tools that happened to be in the right place at the right time to do the job, and weak enough of will that they succumbed to Chaos.
How so? The Primarchs were the most effective tools Chaos could use
Not the only ones though. They have aliens adn demons and so on and so forth. The traitor Primarchs just happened to be there already, with minds weak enough to be corrupted. Their presence removed, some other tool would have been used for the purpose.
I never said it'd be equally effective, but the Emperor was a huge target that was actually threatening the Chaos Gods, thus they united against him.
Melissia wrote:Not the only ones though. They have aliens adn demons and so on and so forth. The traitor Primarchs just happened to be there already, with minds weak enough to be corrupted. Their presence removed, some other tool would have been used for the purpose.
I never said it'd be equally effective, but the Emperor was a huge target that was actually threatening the Chaos Gods, thus they united against him.
What leads you to believe the Primarchs are of weak mind?
Only the Grey Knights and the Necrons are completely immune to Chaos' corruption, the Grey Knights due to specialising in fighting it, conditioning, and training, and the Necrons due to not having any Warp presence whatsoever and being completely Material.
A lot of them either required the direct manipulation of a Chaos God to fall, or already had bad blood towards the Emperor and/or their brothers. Or against the how the Imperium was forming in general.
Sure, they would have tried, but they would of been a lot less successful, IMO.
Melissia wrote:Not the only ones though. They have aliens adn demons and so on and so forth. The traitor Primarchs just happened to be there already, with minds weak enough to be corrupted. Their presence removed, some other tool would have been used for the purpose.
I never said it'd be equally effective, but the Emperor was a huge target that was actually threatening the Chaos Gods, thus they united against him.
What leads you to believe the Primarchs are of weak mind?
Only the Grey Knights and the Necrons are completely immune to Chaos' corruption, the Grey Knights due to specialising in fighting it, conditioning, and training, and the Necrons due to not having any Warp presence whatsoever and being completely Material.
A lot of them either required the direct manipulation of a Chaos God to fall, or already had bad blood towards the Emperor and/or their brothers. Or against the how the Imperium was forming in general.
Sure, they would have tried, but they would of been a lot less successful, IMO.
I'm pretty sure 'nids and tau can't be effected by Chaos either...
I was really only referring to the traitor primarchs anyway..
I caught that.
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Other than Fulgrim and maybe Lorgar, I wouldn't say the traitor primarchs were especially weak-minded.
Going to withhold judgement but i like Necrons as they are. Unfeeling metal beings seeking only to kill you. Making it so you only win by destroying them VERY Thoroughly. I liked the beset by all sides with more coming from within thing they had but as long as ward has nothing to do with it i will probably accept it.
Varrick wrote: Going to withhold judgement but i like Necrons as they are. Unfeeling metal beings seeking only to kill you. Making it so you only win by destroying them VERY Thoroughly. I liked the beset by all sides with more coming from within thing they had but as long as ward has nothing to do with it i will probably accept it.
Then pull on your unaccepting boots
Ward wrote it.
As to how good a job he did (given he apparently asked for fluff-writing help) we'll have to see..
Varrick wrote: Going to withhold judgement but i like Necrons as they are. Unfeeling metal beings seeking only to kill you. Making it so you only win by destroying them VERY Thoroughly. I liked the beset by all sides with more coming from within thing they had but as long as ward has nothing to do with it i will probably accept it.
Then pull on your unaccepting boots
Ward wrote it.
As to how good a job he did (given he apparently asked for fluff-writing help) we'll have to see..
I have the torch ready and my pitchfork sharpened. Who did he get help from?
I really dont see how Necrons changing from "We want to harvest almost all life for our master Ctans" to "We shall once again rule the whole galaxy and might occasionally let a civilization or two survive so that it can serve our needs" make the 40k SO much less grimdark? And can people stop with this crap about Necrons employing market economics. For all we know they are trading invaluable intelligence for useless tech to some duped Inquistor ect...
Void__Dragon wrote:
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree. Other than Fulgrim and maybe Lorgar, I wouldn't say the traitor primarchs were especially weak-minded.
bombboy1252 wrote:I like wards codexs, so I'm in for a treat, sucks to be you guys
Not sure if troll, or just plain stupid...
And it does make 40K less grimdark because when you see eerie green lights, you don't have to panic because it may be a diplomatic committee.
Actually it makes it more grimdark. Now you won't know if it's a trading group, or a bunch of raiders. Adds a sense of suspense.
There are different necron factions now. Not all of them are diplomatic.
I'll wait til the Codex is actually out before deciding how it goes. And even then it probably won't change things alot. They've already established a "highly variable" attitude for the Necrons depending on various things (number of times reborn, etc.) so the apparent difference between Old Codex style Necrons and the new would just be chalked up to those things. And unless they explicitly say, flat out NO THERE ARE NO C'TAN LEFT WHATSOEVER THE EMPEROR SAYETH SO there's always the possibility of C'Tan remaining and the 'Crons as a whole are unaware of them.
And just because some Necrons aren't evil soulless doombot kill machines doesn't mean things aren't grim and foreboding for the Imperium. It's not like the Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, or umpteen-kajillion various xenos threats have exactly gone and vanished.... plenty of scope for the Imperium to be fighting for its life (against itself and against outside threats, both.)
Besides, from what I have been hearing and reading, it looks like this is just another case of 40K descending back into its fantasy roots, after a fashion (judging by the names and stuff.) Which feels odd after several editions spent trying to get AWAY From those roots and make 40K more distinctive or something. but I guess we're getting space skelton/liches/mummies and magick and such. Who knows maybe Space Dwarves are just around the corner...
Lord Rogukiel wrote:Not sure if troll, or just plain stupid...
Matt Ward codices, whatever you think of the lore, have excellently written, varied, and interesting rules and playstyles.
Agreed. The lore is a touch confusing at times since it isn't always clear what he is getting at but IMO it's actually quite good...
I don't know if you're serious or just trollin'. Either way he's messed up necrons for me so...
I'm serious. All of the people claiming Mat Ward's fluff is bad are looking at one interpretation, if you look at it a different way it's not actually that bad.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:Not sure if troll, or just plain stupid...
Matt Ward codices, whatever you think of the lore, have excellently written, varied, and interesting rules and playstyles.
Agreed. The lore is a touch confusing at times since it isn't always clear what he is getting at but IMO it's actually quite good...
I don't know if you're serious or just trollin'. Either way he's messed up necrons for me so...
I'm serious. All of the people claiming Mat Ward's fluff is bad are looking at one interpretation, if you look at it a different way it's not actually that bad.
Alright sire Purplefood, I will attempt to look at the fluff from an objective point of view. BA necron alliance grumble grumble
Lord Rogukiel wrote:Not sure if troll, or just plain stupid...
Matt Ward codices, whatever you think of the lore, have excellently written, varied, and interesting rules and playstyles.
Agreed. The lore is a touch confusing at times since it isn't always clear what he is getting at but IMO it's actually quite good...
I don't know if you're serious or just trollin'. Either way he's messed up necrons for me so...
I'm serious. All of the people claiming Mat Ward's fluff is bad are looking at one interpretation, if you look at it a different way it's not actually that bad.
Alright sire Purplefood, I will attempt to look at the fluff from an objective point of view. BA necron alliance grumble grumble
Please, it was a ceasefire if it was anything. The wording is poor but after fighting the Tyranids neither side was in any shape to fight the other.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:Not sure if troll, or just plain stupid...
Matt Ward codices, whatever you think of the lore, have excellently written, varied, and interesting rules and playstyles.
Agreed. The lore is a touch confusing at times since it isn't always clear what he is getting at but IMO it's actually quite good...
I don't know if you're serious or just trollin'. Either way he's messed up necrons for me so...
I'm serious. All of the people claiming Mat Ward's fluff is bad are looking at one interpretation, if you look at it a different way it's not actually that bad.
When you have to phrase it as not that bad, it's still kind of bad. Though I do see merit in some changes that matt ward makes. Even the brofisting. It's done as a way to give you more fluffy ways to play on the table top. Your necrons, but your buddy's BA. Now you have a fluffy reason to team up in a apoc game. Though I can still see how people get mad by the change.
I heard the Squats ARE coming back in the next Tau codex, but we will see i guess
So, what follows here is pure speculation on my part, but maybe you have your own thoughts about those things, or maybe you just want to flame me for mixing up "facts"
What i don't like about the new codex "rumours" (yes i will still call them rumours until i read it myself) is:
- That it might change how i feel about the necrons. Now they are this unstoppable, merciless army of killerrobots on the outside, but if you look deeper you see the tragedy of a civilization lost to hate and envy, enslaved to forever do the bidding of their unloving gods, never to rest in peace. And i really liked that tragic touch. It somehow made them creepier
- No C'tan left after the war against the old ones? Sooo..
Dragon The emperor never threw the Dragon on mars, the dragon never influenced the mechanicum that got stationed there and they never made such big leaps in building stuff..where did the ships and the equipment come from after old night?
The Deceiver He never got to cause the war that lost the IoM the starbase that could destroy C'tan (= Extremely powerful). That means we still have it? Can we pewpew stuff with it and win the universe now?
The Outsider Did he still eat the other C'tan? Wasn't that AFTER the fall of the old ones? So the eldar god of the harlequins never made him do that, so there are alot more gods around to unleash now? Also, who inhabits his Dyson sphere? I call DIBS!
Nightbringer His backstory was that he (or his deeds? His “presence”? I only recall the result) implemented the concept of “Death” (or the Reaper) in most sentient species subconsciousness.
So..noones afraid of the reaper now? : (
Uriel Ventris/ Pasanius Eh..yes..*book removed from BL booklist* xD
bombboy1252 wrote:I like wards codexs, so I'm in for a treat, sucks to be you guys
Not sure if troll, or just plain stupid...
And it does make 40K less grimdark because when you see eerie green lights, you don't have to panic because it may be a diplomatic committee.
Actually it makes it more grimdark. Now you won't know if it's a trading group, or a bunch of raiders. Adds a sense of suspense.
There are different necron factions now. Not all of them are diplomatic.
But you do lose the level of terror that goes with them in the Cain books, where it's basically 'see green, run away and nuke from orbit'.
I think it's an improvement, since the old fluff really had them tied down. It was basically, unstoppable omnicidal robots will eventually fully awaken and kill everyone. The 40k setting is in stasis because everything is always on the knife's edge of utter grimdarkness, but Necrons had dialed that up to a silly point where you really couldn't progress a story at all with them because to do so would basically lead to the fall of the Imperium. All the other armies at least had a slight amount of wiggle room in their setting.
iDevour wrote:Nightbringer His backstory was that he (or his deeds? His “presence”? I only recall the result) implemented the concept of “Death” (or the Reaper) in most sentient species subconsciousness.
So..noones afraid of the reaper now? : (
I got a fever, and the only prescription is more cowbell.
Lord Rogukiel wrote:I hate this fluff so much already. It's fething ridiculous. Necrons with a sense of market economy?
Oh, and every necron lord is out for himself but the C'tan seem to controlling everything. Now that just doesn't make any sense. If they're controlling everything, then why would they make every necron lord an individualistic git?
And working with living races just goes against all the fluff ever written in any edition about necrons. Who wrote this crap?
Competing lords that are slaved to a C'tan isn't necessarily a bad thing. I haven't read this 'fluff', but you can look at a communist/socialist model where you are just judged on production let's say, and then you wind up with more shoes than feet one month but no milk, and next month milk but no shoes. A market system or competition system means you have to change to meet the needs of the local populace. You cannot just endlessly do one thing or the other, you have to react in a way that is advantageous to you.
As to who does it make them like, maybe the Tau at best. Imperium hates all aliens and wants to trade with none of them, Tyranids don't trade, Eldar deem all non Eldar as below them and don't exactly run around trading, Orcs shoot first because trading is for 'umies', Dark Eldar would rather just steal it.... really only the Tau say 'let's trade and get the best from everyone to make ourselves better'.
Engaging in some trade works as inflitration. You can observe and mimic your foe (gee, flayed ones anyone?), know their technological strengths and deficiencies, and you also ensure you are getting fresh/new ideas in to maintain your technical superiority (the US didn't invent radar, for example, but built the first radar resistant plane in the F117a in the 70s).
I don't mind the changes. These changes, that is. I'm afraid of the future for 40k. With each codex having more and more rediculous fluff and changes to the established storyline I wonder if Matt Ward will bring the whole thing down. We have brofisting enemies, grey knights who can do ANYTHING, CC loving Space Wolves using more heavy weapons than the tau... It all seems so silly compared to the game that got me interested in wargming.
I miss the old ways. I liked that some races had some mystery involved.
Well Orks will trade services (fighting) for goods (guns, just make sure you don't give them guns and ammo at the same time), and while the Imperium as a whole has a 'xenos bad' policy, the reality varies on a planet to planet basis, usually dependent on relative distance to an Inquisition stronghold and the trading partner in quesiton. Plus there's always Rogue Traders.
Eldar would not think the Necrons are below them though. They're the same 'age' as a species, however their past (way past) history would mean that trade is unlikely.
As to who does it make them like, maybe the Tau at best. Imperium hates all aliens and wants to trade with none of them, Tyranids don't trade, Eldar deem all non Eldar as below them and don't exactly run around trading, Orcs shoot first because trading is for 'umies', Dark Eldar would rather just steal it.... really only the Tau say 'let's trade and get the best from everyone to make ourselves better'.
Engaging in some trade works as inflitration. You can observe and mimic your foe (gee, flayed ones anyone?), know their technological strengths and deficiencies, and you also ensure you are getting fresh/new ideas in to maintain your technical superiority (the US didn't invent radar, for example, but built the first radar resistant plane in the F117a in the 70s).
Trade? Rogue traders are entitled to trade with non-humans...
Plus, the stuff the inquisition/GK use, that isn't of IoM origin... I'd suggest to rethink the 'chart' of trade-partners you seem to have in mind.
Necrons do not have to infiltrate. But if, they could use small things, things ignored in general like scarabs. Such a little spy may get anywhere..
OtOH the hints on new fluff also seems on a course to "necrons want to rule" and thus expect tribute, ie free stuff, not to 'pay' for something inferior from the younger races.
daveNYC wrote:Well Orks will trade services (fighting) for goods (guns, just make sure you don't give them guns and ammo at the same time), and while the Imperium as a whole has a 'xenos bad' policy, the reality varies on a planet to planet basis, usually dependent on relative distance to an Inquisition stronghold and the trading partner in quesiton. Plus there's always Rogue Traders.
Eldar would not think the Necrons are below them though. They're the same 'age' as a species, however their past (way past) history would mean that trade is unlikely.
Afaik the necrons are as old as the OldOnes, and they were the ones who "created" the Eldar.
So the Necrons should be older..or did i miss something?
daveNYC wrote:Well Orks will trade services (fighting) for goods (guns, just make sure you don't give them guns and ammo at the same time), and while the Imperium as a whole has a 'xenos bad' policy, the reality varies on a planet to planet basis, usually dependent on relative distance to an Inquisition stronghold and the trading partner in quesiton. Plus there's always Rogue Traders.
Eldar would not think the Necrons are below them though. They're the same 'age' as a species, however their past (way past) history would mean that trade is unlikely.
Afaik the necrons are as old as the OldOnes, and they were the ones who "created" the Eldar.
So the Necrons should be older..or did i miss something?
Older but not by much i'd say... at least not by much relative to how old they are.
daveNYC wrote:Well Orks will trade services (fighting) for goods (guns, just make sure you don't give them guns and ammo at the same time), and while the Imperium as a whole has a 'xenos bad' policy, the reality varies on a planet to planet basis, usually dependent on relative distance to an Inquisition stronghold and the trading partner in quesiton. Plus there's always Rogue Traders.
Eldar would not think the Necrons are below them though. They're the same 'age' as a species, however their past (way past) history would mean that trade is unlikely.
Afaik the necrons are as old as the OldOnes, and they were the ones who "created" the Eldar.
So the Necrons should be older..or did i miss something?
Necrons are older, true. Unless something really goes off the rails with the new fluff.
I meant it just to say that the contempt that Eldar feel for younger races wouldn't be an issue.
DeffDred wrote:I don't mind the changes. These changes, that is. I'm afraid of the future for 40k. With each codex having more and more rediculous fluff and changes to the established storyline I wonder if Matt Ward will bring the whole thing down. We have brofisting enemies, grey knights who can do ANYTHING, CC loving Space Wolves using more heavy weapons than the tau... It all seems so silly compared to the game that got me interested in wargming.
I miss the old ways. I liked that some races had some mystery involved.
Sounds like you need a break from the internet's exaggerations.
New necrons appear to have had power levels buffed past GKs for fluff. World engines crap upon entire imperial fleets and can withstand countless volleys of exterminatus weapons AFTER shields drop.
What's more, is that new crons seem to have gone from sleepy robots to empire waking up and unifying. Given the fact that the silent king looked at the entire nid threat and deduced his race could kill them id say crons still are beefed up.
Srsly cant wait for the fluff! So far it sounds like a great addition imo
BeefCakeSoup wrote:New necrons appear to have had power levels buffed past GKs for fluff. World engines crap upon entire imperial fleets and can withstand countless volleys of exterminatus weapons AFTER shields drop.
What's more, is that new crons seem to have gone from sleepy robots to empire waking up and unifying. Given the fact that the silent king looked at the entire nid threat and deduced his race could kill them id say crons still are beefed up.
Srsly cant wait for the fluff! So far it sounds like a great addition imo
The Necrons have always been implied to be capable of all sorts of crazy things. We're only going to be seeing it now because the "Oldcrons" were pretty much a footnote in the setting.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:New necrons appear to have had power levels buffed past GKs for fluff. World engines crap upon entire imperial fleets and can withstand countless volleys of exterminatus weapons AFTER shields drop.
What's more, is that new crons seem to have gone from sleepy robots to empire waking up and unifying. Given the fact that the silent king looked at the entire nid threat and deduced his race could kill them id say crons still are beefed up.
Srsly cant wait for the fluff! So far it sounds like a great addition imo
The Necrons have always been implied to be capable of all sorts of crazy things. We're only going to be seeing it now because the "Oldcrons" were pretty much a footnote in the setting.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Given the fact that the silent king looked at the entire nid threat and deduced his race could kill them id say crons still are beefed up.
Have the Necrons ever actually lost to the Tyranids in the background yet?
iDevour wrote:Afaik the necrons are as old as the OldOnes, and they were the ones who "created" the Eldar.
So the Necrons should be older..or did i miss something?
Orks and Eldar are the same age, with Necrons and Old Ones being older. How much so... well, shrug?
Void__Dragon wrote:See here's the the thing: I don't care about the tabletop as much as I do the background.
I know I am very much a minority in that opinion(And as such am probably not really the audience 40k cares about when making the codices), but I prefer reading about the background, and would like to get around to playing the FFGRPGs. I find the tabletop to be a fairly poor outlet for crafting a story, your own "fluff" if you will. That's just how I feel.
I agree with you one million percent. I much rather read the fluff and play the RPGs. The mini's are fun every once and while but I like my settings to be consistant. This is not it. It was interesting in Dawn of War with the Flayed One who spoke to your leader unit about the power of the C'Tan.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, I'm still much too butthurt about the C'tan being neutered and made into the new Khaine of the setting. Nor do I really think some of the changes were necessary to do what they wanted to do. The overall theme is gone. IMO, based on the rumors, the new Necrons are Necrons in name only.
I agree with this sentiment as well. I love the Necrons because they are the cold absolute order. There is no divison in their ranks. They are a monolithic force that would consume all life in the galaxy and then sleep as the galaxy recovered. Breaking them into empires, cracks the monolith that the Necron represented.
Last time the necrodermis of the C'tan was punctured it exploded like a sun only to return to its tomb to reforged a new body. How the Necrons managed to over come the C'Tan after being mind wiped is beyond me. You would have thought that would have been in thier programming to not be able to do so. And the souls of the C'Tan are not bound to their bodies, which are merely living metal shells allowing them to interact with the mundane world. In their native forms they are so vast and alien that they could hardly be damaged by any weapon.
Though I with hold final judgement until I see the Codex.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, I'm still much too butthurt about the C'tan being neutered and made into the new Khaine of the setting. Nor do I really think some of the changes were necessary to do what they wanted to do. The overall theme is gone. IMO, based on the rumors, the new Necrons are Necrons in name only.
I agree with this sentiment as well. I love the Necrons because they are the cold absolute order. There is no divison in their ranks. They are a monolithic force that would consume all life in the galaxy and then sleep as the galaxy recovered. Breaking them into empires, cracks the monolith that the Necron represented.
Last time the necrodermis of the C'tan was punctured it exploded like a sun only to return to its tomb to reforged a new body. How the Necrons managed to over come the C'Tan after being mind wiped is beyond me. You would have thought that would have been in thier programming to not be able to do so. And the souls of the C'Tan are not bound to their bodies, which are merely living metal shells allowing them to interact with the mundane world. In their native forms they are so vast and alien that they could hardly be damaged by any weapon.
I agree completely with you guys on this. New necrons are only necrons in name, and the miniatures somewhat. Well, until the codex comes out now...
I really like the new change with necrons, People always complain about how the 40k setting isn't changing....
And the whole "Lets kill all life because are masters want us to" seemed like a vampire counts thing in space...I'm not that good with the WHFB setting too much, but mindless hordes of zombies being led by someone that could think for themselves....seemed pretty Vampire Counts-ish...
bombboy1252 wrote:I really like the new change with necrons, People always complain about how the 40k setting isn't changing....
And the whole "Lets kill all life because are masters want us to" seemed like a vampire counts thing in space...I'm not that good with the WHFB setting too much, but mindless hordes of zombies being led by someone that could think for themselves....seemed pretty Vampire Counts-ish...
Well the reasons why they are doing it set them apart from Warhammer Fantasy. The C'Tan harvest life because to them mortal sensations and emotions are intense. More palpable and real than the energies that a star makes. They drain whole civilizations because it pleases them to do. And then they sleep so that the galaxy can recover.
Necrontyr "Man our sun sucks, its always killing us"
~Progresses through science~
~Sends tomb ships out into space~
Necrontyr "Man we still cannot do anything about this"
Old Ones chillin, nigh immortal, beautiful and psyhic.
WAR!
Necrontyr "Stupid psychics and this immaterial universe they travel through. Our technology is superior but we are still losing"
~Centuries pass talking to the thing that has been feeding off their star, the Nightbringer. They eventually give 100 C'tan form~
~New War. Eldar and Orks are born~
~CHAOS! Assaults the Old Ones home worlds and noms on them~
~C'tan and the reforged Necrons feast on the galaxy and then sleep~
bombboy1252 wrote:I really like the new change with necrons, People always complain about how the 40k setting isn't changing....
And the whole "Lets kill all life because are masters want us to" seemed like a vampire counts thing in space...I'm not that good with the WHFB setting too much, but mindless hordes of zombies being led by someone that could think for themselves....seemed pretty Vampire Counts-ish...
You are aware that that aspect is not changing very much, right?
The vast majority of Necrons are still completely mindless, with the ones in charge being capable of thought.
bombboy1252 wrote:I really like the new change with necrons, People always complain about how the 40k setting isn't changing....
And the whole "Lets kill all life because are masters want us to" seemed like a vampire counts thing in space...I'm not that good with the WHFB setting too much, but mindless hordes of zombies being led by someone that could think for themselves....seemed pretty Vampire Counts-ish...
You are aware that that aspect is not changing very much, right?
The vast majority of Necrons are still completely mindless, with the ones in charge being capable of thought.
But it is a change, that was my point, I know their still mindless killing machines for the most part...
bombboy1252 wrote:I really like the new change with necrons, People always complain about how the 40k setting isn't changing....
You are confusing "changing" with "progressing". People complain that the story is not moving forward, not that existing parts of the story aren't being thrown out the window. How about this for a change? The Emperor was actually a sexual predator, and the reason Horus rebelled is because in his dream/fugue state he recalled all the instances of molestation from his childhood. Bam! Change! I don't really think that's what people are asking for, though.
And the whole "Lets kill all life because are masters want us to" seemed like a vampire counts thing in space...I'm not that good with the WHFB setting too much, but mindless hordes of zombies being led by someone that could think for themselves....seemed pretty Vampire Counts-ish...
So now instead they are Tomb Kings in Space.
And anyway, aren't the Dark Eldar the Vampire Counts in Space army?
Im all for the new fluff. I really dont see what people are complaining about. They are still a very big threat. Now they have sentience on a whole new level which makes them even more dangerous as they are unpredictable. The old necrons and the 'Nids are quite easy to predict but with intelligence comes more options and tactics, something that they didnt necessarily have before. Whats not to like about the new fluff? The old necrons where quite boring, and thats coming from someone who loves the Necrons. If you dont like the new stuff, you could always stay with the old fluff. I dont see what the problem is, its a win win situation.
Thatguy91 wrote:If you dont like the new stuff, you could always stay with the old fluff. I dont see what the problem is, its a win win situation.
I have to agree with this. The invention of the new does no harm to the old; the old Necrons are as conceptually available as ever they were. And if you don't like either one, just make up something you do-- 40k is big enough for everyone.
Thatguy91 wrote:Im all for the new fluff. I really dont see what people are complaining about. They are still a very big threat. Now they have sentience on a whole new level which makes them even more dangerous as they are unpredictable. The old necrons and the 'Nids are quite easy to predict but with intelligence comes more options and tactics, something that they didnt necessarily have before. Whats not to like about the new fluff? The old necrons where quite boring, and thats coming from someone who loves the Necrons. If you dont like the new stuff, you could always stay with the old fluff. I dont see what the problem is, its a win win situation.
They're a localized threat now as it's up to the local Tomb World if they're going to attack you or not, much less how it's up to the individual Craftworld to determine foreign policy. They're just as likely to ally with the Imperium now then fight it, especially in light of greater threats such as the Tyranids. The Necrons are no longer unified in forces or objective and now they're basically a little more of a threat than the Craftworld/Dark Eldar are to human worlds: capable of devastating planetary raids, but localized and are not existentially threatening.
And being able to predict they all wanted to kill you didn't make them any less threatening.
Thatguy91 wrote:Im all for the new fluff. I really dont see what people are complaining about. They are still a very big threat. Now they have sentience on a whole new level which makes them even more dangerous as they are unpredictable. The old necrons and the 'Nids are quite easy to predict but with intelligence comes more options and tactics, something that they didnt necessarily have before. Whats not to like about the new fluff? The old necrons where quite boring, and thats coming from someone who loves the Necrons. If you dont like the new stuff, you could always stay with the old fluff. I dont see what the problem is, its a win win situation.
It probably has to do with virtually every pre-existing Necron thematic element and the "feel" of the faction being thrown out, and the C'tan being made into beings who are treated with even less dignity than Khaine. The new fluff is Necrons in name only, IMHO.
Also, the actual commanding units of Necrons were always possessing of intelligence.
Also, I don't buy that "Changes aren't bad, just make your own fluff! : D " view, never have. Canon>Noncanon.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, I don't buy that "Changes aren't bad, just make your own fluff! : D " view, never have. Canon>Noncanon.
I quote from the seminal edition, book three, "The Age of the Imperium":
Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader (1987) wrote:It is for you - as gamesmasters and players - to use this information as you see fit. There is nothing to prevent you from expanding or altering the material given. In some cases this will be necessary if you are to derive the full benefit from the background, because - even within a single political body such as the Imperium - each planet has its own unique flora, fauna and distinct civilisation. Within the guidelines given you will be able to devise your own worlds, placing the stamp of your own imagination upon the game.
I am of the belief that the setting is for everyone, to remake and reshape as we please. The canonical materials provide me with interesting foundations, but I'm the one that has to take those ideas and make them my own. Maybe the price of that will be that no one will like it but me, but that's okay. You've got yours, and I've got mine.
Ixion wrote:I quote from the seminal edition, book three, "The Age of the Imperium":
Warhammer 40,000 Rogue Trader (1987) wrote:It is for you - as gamesmasters and players - to use this information as you see fit. There is nothing to prevent you from expanding or altering the material given. In some cases this will be necessary if you are to derive the full benefit from the background, because - even within a single political body such as the Imperium - each planet has its own unique flora, fauna and distinct civilisation. Within the guidelines given you will be able to devise your own worlds, placing the stamp of your own imagination upon the game.
I am of the belief that the setting is for everyone, to remake and reshape as we please. The canonical materials provide me with interesting foundations, but I'm the one that has to take those ideas and make them my own. Maybe the price of that will be that no one will like it but me, but that's okay. You've got yours, and I've got mine.
That's all well and nice, but I still disagree.
Official background doesn't just provide the foundation for the games, it defines every subsequent Necron appearance. And now frankly what I liked about Necron fluff is noncanon heresy. Like how you can technically make an army of Slaanesh worshipping, marauding Grey Knights. Sure, you can do it, but it's still noncanon as feth and very contradictory to official fluff.
bombboy1252 wrote:I really like the new change with necrons, People always complain about how the 40k setting isn't changing....
You are confusing "changing" with "progressing". People complain that the story is not moving forward, not that existing parts of the story aren't being thrown out the window. How about this for a change? The Emperor was actually a sexual predator, and the reason Horus rebelled is because in his dream/fugue state he recalled all the instances of molestation from his childhood. Bam! Change! I don't really think that's what people are asking for, though.
And the whole "Lets kill all life because are masters want us to" seemed like a vampire counts thing in space...I'm not that good with the WHFB setting too much, but mindless hordes of zombies being led by someone that could think for themselves....seemed pretty Vampire Counts-ish...
So now instead they are Tomb Kings in Space.
And anyway, aren't the Dark Eldar the Vampire Counts in Space army?
As I said, I'm not into fantasy so I have a very basic understanding, but I think the DE equivalent for fantasy is the DE
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, make up you're own fluff for you're army, you're tombworld can still be a mindless killing machine horde that obeys the C'tan, and don't think to much into what is "canon" because everyone's views on what's "canon" is different, like how I like to believe Malal is still the 5th chaos god
bombboy1252 wrote:As I said, I'm not into fantasy so I have a very basic understanding, but I think the DE equivalent for fantasy is the DE
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, make up you're own fluff for you're army, you're tombworld can still be a mindless killing machine horde that obeys the C'tan, and don't think to much into what is "canon" because everyone's views on what's "canon" is different, like how I like to believe Malal is still the 5th chaos god
No thanks, I'm just going to rant about how the new fluff sucks and punch Ward in the face whenever I see him (Sure this isn't just his fault, but with that goatee the man was already asking for it).
More seriously, I honestly don't think "You can make up your own fluff" is a justification for (Subjectively) bad or unsuitable fluff.
While I'm heavily in favor of gut punching Ward whenever and where ever possible, maybe we should withhold our withering and undying hatred for Nov. 5th. Not saying discussing the rumors is bad or anything just...Wait for the actual product before getting too judgmental.
BrainDeleted wrote:While I'm heavily in favor of gut punching Ward whenever and where ever possible, maybe we should withhold our withering and undying hatred for Nov. 5th. Not saying discussing the rumors is bad or anything just...Wait for the actual product before getting too judgmental.
That was a joke man.
In that the Necron fluff doesn't make me want to punch Ward at all, it's only the goatee that incites that response in me.
bombboy1252 wrote:As I said, I'm not into fantasy so I have a very basic understanding, but I think the DE equivalent for fantasy is the DE
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, make up you're own fluff for you're army, you're tombworld can still be a mindless killing machine horde that obeys the C'tan, and don't think to much into what is "canon" because everyone's views on what's "canon" is different, like how I like to believe Malal is still the 5th chaos god
No thanks, I'm just going to rant about how the new fluff sucks and punch Ward in the face whenever I see him (Sure this isn't just his fault, but with that goatee the man was already asking for it).
More seriously, I honestly don't think "You can make up your own fluff" is a justification for (Subjectively) bad or unsuitable fluff.
I feel like I'm one of the few people that likes Ward....and goatees.....
and no I don't think making up you're own fluff is a good substitute for bad codex writing, but hey...it's a start
I have faith that ol' Mathew Ward will do the Necrons proud!
bombboy1252 wrote:I feel like I'm one of the few people that likes Ward....and goatees.....
and no I don't think making up you're own fluff is a good substitute for bad codex writing, but hey...it's a start
I have faith that ol' Mathew Ward will do the Necrons proud!
I have no issue with goatees, and believe it or not don't think Ward's codices are quite as bad as some people think (I actually kinda liked the Blood Angels codex, for example). I just have an issue with Ward's goatee. It's one of those things that incite a primal, natural hate and rage in you, like Abaddon's hair.
Well, I do know that if I ever run a 40kFFGRPG campaign, the Necrons in it, if they show up, will not be Ward's Necrons.
bombboy1252 wrote:I feel like I'm one of the few people that likes Ward....and goatees.....
and no I don't think making up you're own fluff is a good substitute for bad codex writing, but hey...it's a start
I have faith that ol' Mathew Ward will do the Necrons proud!
I have no issue with goatees, and believe it or not don't think Ward's codices are quite as bad as some people think (I actually kinda liked the Blood Angels codex, for example). I just have an issue with Ward's goatee. It's one of those things that incite a primal, natural hate and rage in you, like Abaddon's hair.
Well, I do know that if I ever run a 40kFFGRPG campaign, the Necrons in it, if they show up, will not be Ward's Necrons.
So...am i the only one having a problem with aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the C'tan related fluff for every race going *pooof* if they really got more or less removed right after the war with the ancients?
Because all arguments seem to revolve about the "not being one-whole-race anymore", when imo the other parts is way worse fluff-wise O.o
Man, i can't wait to read it xD
Thatguy91 wrote:Im all for the new fluff. I really dont see what people are complaining about. They are still a very big threat. Now they have sentience on a whole new level which makes them even more dangerous as they are unpredictable. The old necrons and the 'Nids are quite easy to predict but with intelligence comes more options and tactics, something that they didnt necessarily have before. Whats not to like about the new fluff? The old necrons where quite boring, and thats coming from someone who loves the Necrons. If you dont like the new stuff, you could always stay with the old fluff. I dont see what the problem is, its a win win situation.
They're a localized threat now as it's up to the local Tomb World if they're going to attack you or not, much less how it's up to the individual Craftworld to determine foreign policy. They're just as likely to ally with the Imperium now then fight it, especially in light of greater threats such as the Tyranids. The Necrons are no longer unified in forces or objective and now they're basically a little more of a threat than the Craftworld/Dark Eldar are to human worlds: capable of devastating planetary raids, but localized and are not existentially threatening.
And being able to predict they all wanted to kill you didn't make them any less threatening.
no they really arent a localized threat. They want to dominate the whole galaxy. The fact that they arent the same "autonomus super mega kill everything that moves robots" does not make them less of a threat to the Imperium. Maybe somewhat less od a threath to humanity but not to the imperium. Considering the fact that they can rofelstomp the Tyranids is somewhat of an indication of their level of power.
I am now no longer a Necron Player because of the fluff I have heard about so far.
The specifics of it don't really matter all that much. All I need to know is that the Necrons are no longer the deathless legion of warriors lashed into the service of Lovecraftian gods from the dawn of time. This has more or less been confirmed.
I could have gotten behind some of the Necrons having personality and will... in service to their all powerful deities and their all-consuming decadence. The C'tan were all that was cool about the Necrons. They gave the race their character, they were the creepy 'other', ageless beings from before even the Old Ones had figured out how to speak to one another. They were on par with the Chaos Gods in the scope of their power and influence, with their greater goal even being to utterly seal the Warp off from corporeal reality. They had plans within plans. One had left a scar, the fear of death, on the racial memory of nearly every race in existence. Another had been awake longer than the others and has been engineering, politicking, and infiltrating society at large. Another was sealed inside of a Dyson-Sphere, and was apparently so utterly insane and powerful that even the Eldar Laughing God and his Harlequin servants are terrified of his return. And the last was seemingly sealed away on Mars at the heart of the Imperium, a deep, dark secret that could potentially sunder the Imperium in two were it ever known.
But no. Matt Ward has given us a Necron race that turned against it's gods and broken them apart, rendered them powerless in prisons. Now they're simply space-liches waking up and wanting their empires back.
"Oh, but there are some fringe Necron sects that still worship the C'tan! And the Necrons never hunted down ALL of the C'tan shards, they could still be doing all of that stuff!" ---- No. Simply no. It is NOT the same thing. The entire flavor of the race has been changed, down to it's core. The C'tan have gone from possibly the biggest threat to the galaxy to a boogeyman that a race of robots has locked away in an extra-dimensional closet. The Necrons are now supposedly fighting over things as trivial as territory, borders, spheres of influence, things that were beneath them and the grand designs of their ageless Gods before.
Bleh. It's horrible. My favorite 40k race has been, in my eyes, destroyed.
I was on the fence before about Matt Ward, but I'm now firmly in the 'he should never be allowed to write another codex again, EVER' camp.
Blood_Raven wrote:6th edition Tyranids will state they just want hugs but their claws end up ripping things to shreds by accident. They love you really.
iDevour wrote:So...am i the only one having a problem with aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall the C'tan related fluff for every race going *pooof* if they really got more or less removed right after the war with the ancients?
Because all arguments seem to revolve about the "not being one-whole-race anymore", when imo the other parts is way worse fluff-wise O.o
Man, i can't wait to read it xD
Well, the unaccounted shards sound like they would allow for all the other fluff to still exist, and perhaps even strengthen some of it (so Uriel just faced down a shard of a god, not an actual god).
tedurur wrote:no they really arent a localized threat. They want to dominate the whole galaxy. The fact that they arent the same "autonomus super mega kill everything that moves robots" does not make them less of a threat to the Imperium. Maybe somewhat less od a threath to humanity but not to the imperium. Considering the fact that they can rofelstomp the Tyranids is somewhat of an indication of their level of power.
Yeah, Tau want to dominate the galaxy too, but no one cares about them. And every Tyranid hive fleet so far has been thoroughly roflestomped, so that's not much of an indication either. Orks are the only real threat the Imperium has anymore. It's like the good ole pre-Rylanor days.
I'm quite looking forward to the new direction. I mean I loved the old crons, the whole concept of an immortal & anchient galactic menace appeals to me, but from my perspective they weren't exactly the most 'interesting' of armies.
I mean they had what, 10 units in total (lords, pariahs, warriors, immortals, scarabs, wraiths, flayed ones, destroyers, tombspiders, the 'lith), and pretty much everything written about them was the same i.e. 'wake up, disintegrate, sleep'.
I like the idea of them having some sort of civilisation, just to get a bit more variety in there.
Omegus wrote:Well, the unaccounted shards sound like they would allow for all the other fluff to still exist, and perhaps even strengthen some of it (so Uriel just faced down a shard of a god, not an actual god).
Depends on how "strong" those shards are..
Spoiler:
I mean, i didn't mind the Uriel Ventris fluff, because he didn't really defeat him, he more or less blackmailed him into leaving ^^ And the mental aftermath for him (and the "infected" hand of pasanius) made a pretty good job at saying "don't mess with them gods"
Im just not sure that all the stuff that they did can be attributed to just a little piece of their power..because when you sum it up that would make them preeeeetty badass when they were alive..and how did they kill them then?
edit: Im not saying its not possible, im just saying that this is what im most afraid of, because screwing that up would mess with alot more than "just" the standard necron fluff Still waiting till i read it, because up to now everything is just theories ;D
I dont quite understand how the fluff can be ruined for you. They have basically said, hey if you want the old stuff, have it! Just make your own tomb world that still worship the c'tan and work the same way as the old necrons did? It really isnt that difficult. I think people just like to complain. Be creative, thats what hobbying is for.
Thatguy91 wrote:I dont quite understand how the fluff can be ruined for you. They have basically said, hey if you want the old stuff, have it! Just make your own tomb world that still worship the c'tan and work the same way as the old necrons did? It really isnt that difficult. I think people just like to complain. Be creative, thats what hobbying is for.
I think your suggestion would be more helpful if you just told people to just completely disregard 100% of all the fluff in the new codex.
"Just making your own tomb world that still worships the C'tan" doesn't do anything to solve the issue that some people have with the Necrons now not being a monolithic, galaxy-spanning entity out to eradicate all life.
Panzerboy26 wrote:
I was on the fence before about Matt Ward, but I'm now firmly in the 'he should never be allowed to write another codex again, EVER' camp.
I highly doubt that Mat Ward was the one who made this background decision. He would have been told the direction they wanted the Necrons to go in.
Omegus wrote:And every Tyranid hive fleet so far has been thoroughly roflestomped, so that's not much of an indication either.
But not in same way. The Necron fleet engagements with the Tyranids are always described as if the Necrons annihilated the Tyranids with no losses. Only the Tau managed to replicate that feat (with Shadowsun being both an amazing land and naval general. Would've thought that that would've been down to the Air Caste, but okay.), and only once against what was presumably a very small splinter fleet. The Imperium lose worlds stopping them. The Eldar suffer heavy losses. The Necrons? They decimate the Tyranids like noone else seems capable of.
Omegus wrote:Just making your own tomb world that still worships the C'tan" doesn't do anything to solve the issue that some people have with the Necrons now not being a monolithic, galaxy-spanning entity out to eradicate all life.
They were never out to eradicate all life though (well, they kind of were, but the C'tan were not going to let them do so). They also weren't monolithic or a single entity considering the Nightbringer and the Deceiver were at loggerheads.
Not sure why the Deceiver didn't just go wake up all of his Tombworlds, though. Or the Nightbringer, for that matter.
Thatguy91 wrote:I dont quite understand how the fluff can be ruined for you. They have basically said, hey if you want the old stuff, have it! Just make your own tomb world that still worship the c'tan and work the same way as the old necrons did? It really isnt that difficult. I think people just like to complain. Be creative, thats what hobbying is for.
I think your suggestion would be more helpful if you just told people to just completely disregard 100% of all the fluff in the new codex.
"Just making your own tomb world that still worships the C'tan" doesn't do anything to solve the issue that some people have with the Necrons now not being a monolithic, galaxy-spanning entity out to eradicate all life.
No, it wouldnt be on the same scale. Nowhere near it infact but its still what you want to play and to be completely honest the old necron fluff was about as predictable and stale as anything could possibly be. Now you have some flavour in the mix, some mystery and you have different factions of the same race (the "city states"). You will still have an impressive force of countless skeletal figures worshipping C'tans if that is what you want. I honestly dont see what all the fuss is about, but then again im a sucker for fluff so maybe its just me..
Thatguy91 wrote:I dont quite understand how the fluff can be ruined for you. They have basically said, hey if you want the old stuff, have it! Just make your own tomb world that still worship the c'tan and work the same way as the old necrons did? It really isnt that difficult. I think people just like to complain. Be creative, thats what hobbying is for.
*New Black Templars Codex*
So they've decided to take the chapter in another direction, they're no longer going to be angry, crusading Zealots. They're going to be peaceful, self-sacrificing Exemplars of justice who strive to make sure that right and reason are achieved above all things, making sure to get both the Imperial and Xenos/Heretical sides of the story before weighing the facts and choosing which side to fight for. They often fight against the Imperium when they find that it's forces and Imperial commanders acted with gross negligence for the welfare of other races. Because they believe in fighting for the notion of a galactic community and a higher code of justice rather than something based on as trivial a notion as race. And Psykers? Most of the time they are the victims of their own genetics, so the chapter takes every step that they can to ensure that they are taken down non-lethally and treated humanely after the fact, because again, it's not their fault.
And oh, for anyone who want's the old codex and fluff? You can have it! They put a little 'fluff' box at the bottom at one of the pages that one of the Chapter's Companies has gone rogue, acting all hateful, judgmental, and intolerant, even going so far as to launch a 'crusade' against so called 'enemies of the Imperium'.
--- See what I did there? It's pretty much the same thing.
What you described is a total reversal of the Fluff, with the inclusion of being able to use the old fluff as a foot-note. The Necron fluff is not this, at all. You can create your own fluff as part of the new fluff, choosing to do whatever you want with your Necron Overlord. He can be kind, ruthless, the exact same as the old Lords, or even a friend to younger races, or he can be exactly as you want him to be. THIS IS ALL PART OF THE NEW FLUFF. It caters for literally everyone.
What you described is a total reversal of the Fluff, with the inclusion of being able to use the old fluff as a foot-note. The Necron fluff is not this, at all. You can create your own fluff as part of the new fluff, choosing to do whatever you want with your Necron Overlord. He can be kind, ruthless, the exact same as the old Lords, or even a friend to younger races, or he can be exactly as you want him to be. THIS IS ALL PART OF THE NEW FLUFF. It caters for literally everyone.
^ This.
The difference is that with the necrons we have never known the full story of their people and their strugges. All we have known is that they made a "deal with the devil" and lost their free will in the process. However as it turns out that is not the case, they seem to be a highly evolved and socially structured people with different views and beliefs, like all other races. As far as I understand it though most of them want to bring back the old ways, where they ruled but tolerated lesser races. Not even close to the same thing. People just like to cry about things that they dont like at first glace, if you actually look into it you will find that this fluff really opens up the Necron race and gives them some depth. Its a good thing.
Star Gods help crappy small race become sweet to wage a second war against old ones. War is declared for the second time except now the Necrons are on the verge of winning. Enslaver plague steals the final win and Necrons fight each other. Everyone finally goes to sleep for 60 million years.
40K Setting: They awaken here and there and get into random fights. For the most part they are an empire in slumber.
New Necron Fluff:
Necrons are galaxy spanning empire that rocks, so hard infact they fight each other. Civil War starts and Necrons unify under one ruler to wage war against Old Ones. War becomes very difficult and enlist help from C'Tan. C'Tan enslave them then achieve victory. After they win the Necrons turn on the C'Tan, apparently this is such a brutal undertaking it cripples the Necrons to the point of fearing the Eldar.
40K Setting: The Silent King exiles himself into the coldness of space where he sees the Nids approaching our galaxy, realizing the threat this could be for his sleeping empire, he returns to mobilize his entire empire into a galactic war to wipe these invaders out to the last roach.
Personally, I prefer option 2 over option 1. Saying option two destroyed option 1 is opinion. Most people fell asleep reading Necron fluff since it was basically a whole bunch of narration about stuff that happened a billion trillion years ago between two factions, one we had mere scraps of info about.
Necron players are so lucky, I'd kill for a revamp like this for Tau. Do very want more then 2 short stories explaining all my fluff.
What you described is a total reversal of the Fluff, with the inclusion of being able to use the old fluff as a foot-note. The Necron fluff is not this, at all. You can create your own fluff as part of the new fluff, choosing to do whatever you want with your Necron Overlord. He can be kind, ruthless, the exact same as the old Lords, or even a friend to younger races, or he can be exactly as you want him to be. THIS IS ALL PART OF THE NEW FLUFF. It caters for literally everyone.
Ok about that, I was thinking about BLACK TEMPLARS BECOMING REASONABLE MARINES AND SPREADING PEACE, LOVE AND UNITY ALL OVER THE GALAXY.
Somebody tell me this is a joke...
What you described is a total reversal of the Fluff, with the inclusion of being able to use the old fluff as a foot-note. The Necron fluff is not this, at all. You can create your own fluff as part of the new fluff, choosing to do whatever you want with your Necron Overlord. He can be kind, ruthless, the exact same as the old Lords, or even a friend to younger races, or he can be exactly as you want him to be. THIS IS ALL PART OF THE NEW FLUFF. It caters for literally everyone.
^ This.
The difference is that with the necrons we have never known the full story of their people and their strugges. All we have known is that they made a "deal with the devil" and lost their free will in the process. However as it turns out that is not the case, they seem to be a highly evolved and socially structured people with different views and beliefs, like all other races. As far as I understand it though most of them want to bring back the old ways, where they ruled but tolerated lesser races. Not even close to the same thing. People just like to cry about things that they dont like at first glace, if you actually look into it you will find that this fluff really opens up the Necron race and gives them some depth. Its a good thing.
That's not entirely what I meant. It's opinion obviously, but the new fluff has not replaced the old fluff. Lovers of the old Necrons can like the new Necrons for the exact same reasons, nothing has changed in that respect. People like me, who really hated them for a distinct lack of direction and personality, can now love the new Necrons for their own reasons. I want to be an Overlord that wants a return to the old ways, when they ruled other races through fear and discipline, that zealously attacked the C'tan for their betrayal, that enslaves shards whenever he can, but that sees the strength they gained from their metal bodies and opposes a return to biological forms. That's MY reasons. Like I said, it's all opinion, but I just find it incredibly frustrating when people say the old Necrons have been destroyed, because it's not true.
It depends really on how the fluff is written. Are Necrons still a faceless horror? Are they still a largely unknown terror that are only hinted at?
Or,will they be the 40k equivalent of Cobra commander from GI Joe, will they constantly lose in their own fluff to marines? Will the entire Necron hierarchy be full of idiotic characters who make the Necrons appear as threatening as snidely whiplash?
Quite frankly anyone who believes that the Necrons aren't in fact completely changed is deluding themselves. They used to be virtually completely silent, which made them more terrifying, a Necron Lord would rarely speak, especially in the presence of other factions. Which is now of course no longer the case, since apparently the codex is brimming with quotes from Necron characters. I can only make the assumption that this other aspect of Necron fluff is gone as well, Necrons were mostly presented from other points of view, their quotes regarding them and their gods were by other species, discussing the threat they posed. This served to emphasize the alien natures of the Necrons, and their cosmic horror vibe. Contrary to what some seem to think, the Necrons being humanised devalues their previous characterisation, as alien, implacable threats, united and driven relentlessly by a single-minded hatred that has survived eons. Now, some will no doubt harp out the usual argument (BUT THAT WAS THE PROBLEM), no, it wasn't. Singular or purpose=/=Mindless and unable to be distinguished. That is admittedly one failing of the 3e Necron codex, the sentience of the upper echelons of the Necrons should have been emphasized better. I am all for the new codex approaching distinguishing Lords and Tomb Worlds and giving players more hooks for creating fluff for their army. But not if every pre-existing theme is thrown into the garbage. The cosmic horror? It's gone, and no, Necrons worshipping and wielding pathetic shards of a former deity's power (That will probably get punched out by Calgar) =/=cosmic horror. Oh, and then there is the theme of absolute order the Necrons embodied, where if the goals of their masters are completely, the galaxy stops changing for all time, serving only as a means to amuse and feed them, a soulless galaxy without innovation or change. Only... This theme is undermined by the simple fact that IIRC all Tomb Worlds are now largely independent of one another. Before, the only four factions you could argue were Necrons serving a specific deity, which already gave players reasons to have Necrons fight eachother, though like many things about Necrons, the codex should of made this clear. Them being so fractured undermines the "Order" theme.
Then of course there is this argument...
"Oh but you can make your own fluff! : D"
Well sure I guess you can also make your own fluff about how the Grey Knights are Slaanesh-worshipping serial rapists who prey on the weaker Maiden Worlds of the Eldar, but you'd have to ignore the official fluff to make this possible.
For me, the C'tan being the overlords of the Necrons isn't just some detail of the setting, it should be an immutable fact. If the Chaos Gods were enslaved by Abaddon and used as war engines on the battlefields, the Chaos fans' testicles would all explode. The part that makes them being demoted severely is the fact that to "fix" the Necrons (Since I will admit that, as much as I loved their codex, it had flaws that should be improved), making the C'tan jokes didn't have to happen. Want to have different Tomb Worlds behave differently? Sure, why not, that does add characterization. United and singularity of purpose doesn't mean different Lords and Tombs could have different ways of approaching their ultimate goal, and contrary to popular belief, the Necrons before 5e have demonstrated more than a basic "KILL EVERYTHING" methodology. Some Necron attacks kidnap, some harvest the bodies of the population, some show up with a specific objective in mind, then immediately leave, etc.
The Necrons, if the rumors are true (And I sincerely hope they aren't), have lost what truly made them Necrons. The baisc horror? Gone, now they're just regular dudes who happen to be robotic skeletons (Seriously, the Silent King going on an emo pilgrimage outside the galaxy because he was guilty? Really?). The cosmic horror? You can't have cosmic horror without the cosmic horrors, and the cosmic horrors of the Necrons have been shattered into tiny pieces and are used as slaves and war engines. The theme of Order, of Unity in its purest form? Necrons society is now fractured on multiple levels... Hell, this said fracturing of their society is the reason they warred with the Old Ones in the first place. The single-minded hatred that led them to sell their souls and damn themselves? Pft, now it's just a team-building exercise.
Do not get me wrong, I fault no one if they genuinely like the new Necrons (Or rather, the rumors, my God, I just wrote a nerdrage essay over rumors of the storyline behind a bunch of toy robots ), but at the same time, don't expect a Necron player (Not to say all feel the same way as me) to just smile and accept the new fluff, when they really don't like it.
On another note, the demotion of the C'tan does in fact make other beings in the setting look much weaker in comparison, ironically. Apparently a starving, weakened shard of the Void Dragon was capable of holding its own and even getting the upper hand against the Emperor, compared to Horus when backed by all four Chaos Gods, who only did so well because the Emperor was unable to bring his full power to bear. I find that amusing.
What makes or breaks it for me is how the big four are handled. Haven't heard about that in rumors. If the big four are still whole, then I can roll with the lesser C'tan being broken up by the Necrons instead of NOMed by the other C'tan. If they big four are broken and gone......I don't really know. However, if the big four are still unsharded and out there, then good. They never should have been playable.
I for one welcome our new Necron overlords...
I find the new fluff great, and think it gives the necrons more depth and purpose. As stated before you really did not get a feel for any diversity within the necron race, or something that made them stand out in the universe. I always thought of them as metallic Nids, their only purpose being the nom nom nom. But now I see that they are in fact a much more intelligent race. They are still the same diabolical heartless killings machines. Now they just have a reason for being diabolical heartless killing machines, and a more clear direction for their killing.
So after writting a huge post for the last 25mins.... Dakka decided to logg me out and instead of re-writting the entire thing which I really cant make myself go through again im going to cut it down real nice and short.... Thanks Forum Gods! *mumble* *mumble* *spits profanities* *mumbles*.
New C'tan vs Old C'tan. - I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck. These creatures are as old as the galaxy itself, they have been worshiped like gods, they turned the tide on a war against what was possibly the strongest race that the galaxy has ever seen with a flick of their wrists, they fed on the very stars themselves! I mean come on! If these guys truely were to take to the battlefield they would just destroy everything, its as simple as that, and since that isnt a viable option in a gaming sense, dont use them! It just... It just doesnt work for me. At all. Therefore i like the new C'tan. They are now mere shadows, nay slithers of their former selves and they have lost their true power but they are still powerful enough to challenge any mortal being in combat, not to mention the funky special rules they bring to the table. This works for me.
Unity - No race is truely unified. Thats just the way it goes. Except for maybe the Tyranids... And they dont really have a choice now do they.. With sentience comes a choice and with choices comes individualism and that will ultimately lead a race away from unity. They can all work for the same goal but they do not all want the same thing, its just how life works. You can have unity through simplification, like the old Necrons, but that removes the higher level of sentience... which removes individualism... which tend to make things boring after a while as everything will stay stagnant.
Tomb kings... IN SPAAAAAAACE - Yeah just stop it lolz. I mean for real. If you took two minutes to sit down and read about the ancient cultures and civilizations, most of them worked this way. EI city states/kingdoms, Godlike leader figures/kings, polytheism, similar architectural designs (pyramid-like), jewelry was colorful and very extravagant, almost all of them use a system of glyphs and they are all very "Mysterious". Its how the world works. Simple.
The Ctan were simply too powerful in the previous setting. They needed to be written down in powerlevel and what they appear to have done now seems like a good way of doing it.
Besides, can someone who is a fan of the old fluff tell me why the Deciver/Nightbringer who were awake and free didnt go wake up their minions so that they could rape every civilization? It makes no sense what so ever.
Also, the Necrons stomping the Nids is nothing like when the other races stomp the Nids. Saying so is just nonsens.
tedurur wrote:
Also, the Necrons stomping the Nids is nothing like when the other races stomp the Nids. Saying so is just nonsens.
I quite like the idea that necrons can easily roflstomp the 'nids, it kind of gives them a hint of 'necessary evil'. Kind of like the quote from Chronicles of Riddick:
'Sometimes evil (nids) cannot be defeated by good (the rest), and must be fought by a different kind of evil (crons), I'm paraphrasing a bit but you get the idea...
What you described is a total reversal of the Fluff, with the inclusion of being able to use the old fluff as a foot-note. The Necron fluff is not this, at all. You can create your own fluff as part of the new fluff, choosing to do whatever you want with your Necron Overlord. He can be kind, ruthless, the exact same as the old Lords, or even a friend to younger races, or he can be exactly as you want him to be. THIS IS ALL PART OF THE NEW FLUFF. It caters for literally everyone.
Except... that is what its like. Soulless machines being controlled by unfathomable beings who are bent on purging all life no matter , suddenly go to valuing concepts like honour and trade with other races (what they could possibly need I'll never know). Its like a giant 180 in the tone and concept. Don't really care if Ward wrote it or not, I don't like it either way.
So yeah I think the BT example holds up really well.
Watch an anime called the Master of Martial Hearts for what I'm getting at here, a terrible, terrible show which does a 180 on the tone it initially set, right in the final episode out of nowhere. Thats kinda what its like for me here and I'm guessing other people here.
Actually I've just noticed that honour and valour seems to be repeated themes which crop up in Matt Wards work. The Blood Angels value it, the Grey Knights value it, the UM value it and now the Necrons do as well. I've got nothing against the concepts of them, but why do different chapters and races even seemingly put such a strong emphasis on it. Doesn't seem to fit the tone of the universe very well. Bloody hell can you imagine if he had tried to cram in those concepts with the DE
This was posted on Warseer, supposedly deals with the scattered Necron domains now (called Dynasties):
Spoiler:
The White Dwarf gives us quite a bit of info:
Dynasties seem to be our 'cabals', 'chapters' or what have you. They have a color scheme and a short background. They "rule" parts of the galaxy and consist of multiple Tomb Worlds. An Overlord can apparently rule multiple worlds (as seen in the breakdown of the Sautekh Dynasty, which has Overlords with titles such as "Regent of the Sautekh homeworlds", "Regent of the Sautekh Fringeworlds", but also "Regent of Gheisten".
Some Dynasties are ruled by others...once again, two Dynasties are given (Sekemtar and Arrynmarok) that are ruled by Imotekh from the Sautekh Dynasty.
The Sautekh Dynasty, while currently the most powerful Dynasty, was only the third most powerful Dynasty before the biotransference. Currently ruled by Imotekh, who indeed seems to be 40k's version of Settra.
The Charnovokh Dynasty is mentioned as eaten mostly by Tyranids. This has pushed them into restoring ancient dolmen gates that connect their realms to the wider galaxy. This does put an end to the old speculation about Tyranids avoiding Necrons/Tomb Worlds in general.
The Nihilakh Dynasty gives us a Dynasty that just keeps to themselves and has no intention of conquering the galaxy. They are very defensive of their territory though. Kinda like Wood Elves
The Nekthyst Dynasty are noted as traitors, turncoats and oathbreakers. The "taint of dishonour" still hangs heavy over them, and they mostly operate as mercenaries. Mercenary contracts are the only promise they never seem to break. What this also tells us (along with the teaser-trailer) is that Necrons apparently value treaties, pacts and honor quite a bit, to make such a big deal out of the Nekthyst Dynasty breaking them. In D&D terms, Necrons in general are definitely on the Lawful side of the alignment scale.
The common cause for all Necrons is given as "rebuilding the Necron dynasties and the return of the Necrons to their rightful supremacy." They feel they should be in charge. Once again, pretty Lawful (Evil?) guys.
The Bone Kingdom of Drazak is the Flayed One kingdom located in the north-eastern Ghoul Stars, led by a Flayed One King. They're the "fresh meat" zombies/ghouls, that go on random killing sprees. Needless to say, Flayed Ones aren't very respected by the other Necrons. It's said that it's a C'tan curse, not a normal madness or disease, that plagues them.
The Stasis Docks of Seidon were once in the center of the Necrontyr empire. The "master program" of these Docks broke down, so it sends fleets to random locations every thirty-three weeks. The local Overlord is apparently unaware of this.
Thanatos and the Celestial Orrery. The Celestial Orrery is said to be one of the galaxy's greatest treasures. It has a small light for every star in the galaxy. Snuff out the light, and the star will soon follow.
So apparently, Necrons value honor quite a bit and look down on Tomb Worlds which break pacts, go back on their word, act dishonorable, etc.. In addition Flayed Ones are viewed with disdain for being too violent.
Oi vey Necrons, what have they done to you. I really don't understand why they're machines anymore there's no point to it.
obsidianaura wrote:Maybe the terminator franchise was threatening to sue or GW were scared that they might?
In that case the skeletal robot aesthetic would need to be abandoned as well, in which case you have a thoroughly different faction bearing the name of an old one.
The best story I've read was where the Callidus Assasin tries to assasinate an Imperial Governor and it turns out to be a C'tan in disguise! He plays with his toys! To basically toy with the lesser races in such a laid-back, almost entertaining manner is the most badass thing on this side of the Warp any creature could possibly do.
Chaos ain't got crap when playing around with the Imperium.
Now C'tan are somehow weaker than the Necrons, who couldn't keep their own Empire from falling apart, who couldn't beat the Old Ones, who are apparently afraid of the Eldar (instead of the other way around). Who destroys Gods of that calliber?
I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck.
Remember that the Void Dragon was near starving and it still kicked the Emperor's two ton keister, and even then the emperor couldn't kill it.
Simply repainting it as a 'Shard' just takes all the venom out of what could have been a serious threat to the Imperium.
StormForged wrote:Why did they have to gut the C'tan?
Because it's a new direction to the fluff that some people like, and some don't.
The best story I've read was where the Callidus Assasin tries to assasinate an Imperial Governor and it turns out to be a C'tan in disguise! He plays with his toys! To basically toy with the lesser races in such a laid-back, almost entertaining manner is the most badass thing on this side of the Warp any creature could possibly do.
Chaos ain't got crap when playing around with the Imperium.
The Horus Heresy. It eclipses anything any single C'tan has done in the fluff we have.
Now C'tan are somehow weaker than the Necrons, who couldn't keep their own Empire from falling apart, who couldn't beat the Old Ones, who are apparently afraid of the Eldar (instead of the other way around). Who destroys Gods of that calliber?
You're not giving the full story, at all. The C'tan were gods the Necrons sought help from in their war with the Old Ones, a war they were losing. They gave the the Necrons the technology they needed to beat the Old Ones, and with the C'tan's aid, they did. They discovered they were being enslaved, so the Necrons made war upon their masters. They won, but were crippled as a result. That's right. The war against the C'tan nearly destroyed them, they couldn't fight the Eldar because of it. Of course your also neglecting to remember that the Necrons fear what could happen of the C'tan were returned to their complete forms and do all they can to imprison shards in pocket dimensions.
I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck.
Remember that the Void Dragon was near starving and it still kicked the Emperor's two ton keister, and even then the emperor couldn't kill it.
What the feth are you talking about? It's the Emperor, not some tiny human, the Emperor. Oh, and you just essentially contradicted yourself in two sentences.
Simply repainting it as a 'Shard' just takes all the venom out of what could have been a serious threat to the Imperium.
No, it doesn't, it increases the 'venom'. If all the escapades of the C'tan were achieved by a mere shard of the real thing, I wouldn't dare speculate what a full-powered one could do.
I wouldnt say they gutted the C'tan, rather gave them the awe that they deserve. If a shard is as powerful as described in the last few codices then the full blown thing would be an awesome force indeed. And I have to agree with iproxtaco the chaos gods have done some pretty nasty stuff in their time. I would say that C'tan and chaos god powers are almost on the same level as the chaos gods cannot manifest themselves in the flesh as C'tan can (as far as I know) so the C'tan has more to work with. I hope that makes sense. I dont think the new fluff makes them any less powerful. Remember that it was AFTER the C'tan had given the Necrons they needed to destroy the old ones that they turned on their masters, not before. There is a HUGE difference. You have to look at the full picture.
Besides we dont know that any of this is set in stone until the 5th so we are just going to have to wait and see.
Well, Kinda makes me hope that there'll be a C'tan Apoc Unit, Like a stronger shard that is harder to restrain that the Necrons only pull on when they really feel they need it out of fear that it'll get loose and be able to attempt to get back it's full strength via searching for it's other shards/eating suns/sentient life forces etc.
Harriticus wrote:The Charnovokh Dynasty is mentioned as eaten mostly by Tyranids. This has pushed them into restoring ancient dolmen gates that connect their realms to the wider galaxy. This does put an end to the old speculation about Tyranids avoiding Necrons/Tomb Worlds in general.
The Nekthyst Dynasty are noted as traitors, turncoats and oathbreakers. The "taint of dishonour" still hangs heavy over them, and they mostly operate as mercenaries. Mercenary contracts are the only promise they never seem to break. What this also tells us (along with the teaser-trailer) is that Necrons apparently value treaties, pacts and honor quite a bit, to make such a big deal out of the Nekthyst Dynasty breaking them. In D&D terms, Necrons in general are definitely on the Lawful side of the alignment scale.
Thanatos and the Celestial Orrery. The Celestial Orrery is said to be one of the galaxy's greatest treasures. It has a small light for every star in the galaxy. Snuff out the light, and the star will soon follow.
You dont have to lack values to be evil. I preffer the lawful evil approach, for me it really fits the way I have always thought of them to be before turning into mindless machines. If you want trechery and lies try chaos or dark eldar... its kinda their thing.. I love the new fluff (really obvious by now) and I think it will really make the necrons more attractive and it will give them the respect that their race deserves. +1
Thatguy91 wrote:New C'tan vs Old C'tan. - I didnt like how some of the most powerful creatures in the universe could be beaten in battle by some tiny human with some luck. These creatures are as old as the galaxy itself, they have been worshiped like gods, they turned the tide on a war against what was possibly the strongest race that the galaxy has ever seen with a flick of their wrists, they fed on the very stars themselves! I mean come on! If these guys truely were to take to the battlefield they would just destroy everything, its as simple as that, and since that isnt a viable option in a gaming sense, dont use them! It just... It just doesnt work for me. At all. Therefore i like the new C'tan. They are now mere shadows, nay slithers of their former selves and they have lost their true power but they are still powerful enough to challenge any mortal being in combat, not to mention the funky special rules they bring to the table. This works for me.
Tiny human? The only human in the fluff to of defeated a C'tan was the God Emperor himself, and the Void Dragon was still regaining power, starved and weakened. And... I really hope you aren't referring to the Emperor as a "tiny human," considering his power is arguable greater Or are you referring to Uriel Ventris? Admittedly Uriel Ventris making the Nightbringer forget that it could easily become incorporeal and escape the Tomb was stupid, but he did not defeat it. Or are you referring to the fact that they can be beaten by the Imperial Guard in the TT?
Well gee, I bet I can think of a good solution for this!
Take the full-powered C'tan off the TT. Wow, that was hard to come up with.
If GW still wanted to have the C'tan on the TT in a lesser sense, then it's not like they have to look for ideas on how to go about this. Dawn of War managed this without neutering the C'tan. One could easily have constructs imbued with the essence of a C'tan without making them jokes in the fluff, it is canon in the old fluff of the Nightbringer that it was capable of doing such things.
Unity - No race is truely unified. Thats just the way it goes. Except for maybe the Tyranids... And they dont really have a choice now do they.. With sentience comes a choice and with choices comes individualism and that will ultimately lead a race away from unity. They can all work for the same goal but they do not all want the same thing, its just how life works. You can have unity through simplification, like the old Necrons, but that removes the higher level of sentience... which removes individualism... which tend to make things boring after a while as everything will stay stagnant.
Yeah see, the part I bolded? That's the flaw in your reasoning. The Necrons were no longer truly alive, they are the unliving, the undead. They aren't meant to be so readily equateable with us, humanity. This is why the Necrons are no longer Necrons. They are no longer convincingly alien. They're just humans in robot suits. And no, incorrect. The upper echelons of the Necrons could easily be distinguishable from others of their kind while still being united in purpose, if not united entirely. And once more, having Necrons foit eachother can easily be explained by different C'tan overlords.
Tomb kings... IN SPAAAAAAACE - Yeah just stop it lolz. I mean for real. If you took two minutes to sit down and read about the ancient cultures and civilizations, most of them worked this way. EI city states/kingdoms, Godlike leader figures/kings, polytheism, similar architectural designs (pyramid-like), jewelry was colorful and very extravagant, almost all of them use a system of glyphs and they are all very "Mysterious". Its how the world works. Simple.
I don't recall mentioning the Tomb Kings. Granted I am not entirely sure if your post was meant towards me.
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Thatguy91 wrote:You dont have to lack values to be evil. I preffer the lawful evil approach, for me it really fits the way I have always thought of them to be before turning into mindless machines. If you want trechery and lies try chaos or dark eldar... its kinda their thing.. I love the new fluff (really obvious by now) and I think it will really make the necrons more attractive and it will give them the respect that their race deserves. +1
They were lawful evil in the old fluff.
Frankly they were more lawful evil before, they were ultimate law, ultimate order.
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iproxtaco wrote:The Horus Heresy. It eclipses anything any single C'tan has done in the fluff we have.
The War in Heaven is the single biggest war ever in the setting.
Yeah what I ment was that on TT with a few lucky rolls a random foot soldier could technically dispatch a C'tan. And im not okay with that. That should NEVER happen. As for the fluff, sure, the Emperor might manage such a feat with said C'tan being starved etc. I can take that, the Emperor is an exception obviously. So they are removing full powered C'tan from the TT, which is a good thing AND removing some of them from the fluff and changing them into shards blah blah we know the deal by now but you still have C'tan that roam the galaxy and are free. Again you get both worlds.
I see your point but the ESSENCE, the soul if you will is still part of their mechanical body. Just because they are made out of metal doesnt mean that they cant be alive. They all have sentience to some degree and that is usually what constitutes to something being "Alive" as we know it. Well its one of the things anyway. That means, for me atleast, that Necrons are living beings, therefore the chance that their race is able to unify itself 100% towards a common goal is minute, unless it threatens their very exsistance.
Yeah.. That wasnt aimed at you that was just me hating on everyone positing "TOUMBKINGZINSPESSLAWL".
Thatguy91 wrote:Yeah what I ment was that on TT with a few lucky rolls a random foot soldier could technically dispatch a C'tan. And im not okay with that. That should NEVER happen. As for the fluff, sure, the Emperor might manage such a feat with said C'tan being starved etc. I can take that, the Emperor is an exception obviously. So they are removing full powered C'tan from the TT, which is a good thing AND removing some of them from the fluff and changing them into shards blah blah we know the deal by now but you still have C'tan that roam the galaxy and are free. Again you get both worlds.
Both worlds? No. The C'tan are now the new Khaine of the setting. In that now they will just be big fodder creature that happens to be a piece of a god that exists to be punched in half by Marneus Calgar. Why is removing some of the C'tan from the fluff a good thing? I fail to really see your logic behind how one gets both worlds from this, or even grasp your basic meaning. It does one good thing, taking the actual C'tan off the battlefield. Though they were not at full power, being mostly starved, especially the Nightbringer, who left Pavonis to go feed on stars, being incredible weak and starved due to the Deceiver being a troll.
And really, the change with the C'tan, if Mechanicum is still considered viable, really shoves a size 16 boot up the background of the 40k.
It was established in that story that the Void Dragon was starving and weakened, and was slowly working towards regaining some of its former power. The Emperor fought a hard battle with it, and eventually prevailed.
Only... Now apparently that was not the true Void Dragon, but a shard. A weakened shard. So a weaker than normal 200 point model=Emperor? Who was able to stand against the massed might of the Chaos Gods?
Lol. Yeah because the Necrons, who could not beat the Old Ones without the help of the C'tan, being capable of exterminating the C'tan to a man effectively makes a lot of sense.
I see your point but the ESSENCE, the soul if you will is still part of their mechanical body. Just because they are made out of metal doesnt mean that they cant be alive. They all have sentience to some degree and that is usually what constitutes to something being "Alive" as we know it. Well its one of the things anyway. That means, for me atleast, that Necrons are living beings, therefore the chance that their race is able to unify itself 100% towards a common goal is minute, unless it threatens their very exsistance.
You're applying human rationale to them again. Their unified motive was largely what made them so alien, that an entire race could be driven by such a primal hatred to the extent that they would sell their souls and damn themselves forever to accomplish this goal made them terrifying, and incomprehensible. Now, apparently they warred with the Old Ones because they couldn't get along with eachother, so big daddy Silent King came up with a way to make them play nice. And once more, they were united entirely and wholly in purpose, but infighting could still be possible between them.
Yeah.. That wasnt aimed at you that was just me hating on everyone positing "TOUMBKINGZINSPESSLAWL".
I can't really comment on similarities with the Tomb Kings, since I've never played or read anything concerning Fantasy.
Awww. Looks like I'm going to have to change my sig soon - turns out the possibility of hugs as weapons is a lot more reasonable now that the 'crons are (somewhat) diplomatic and open to the possibility to trade an whathaveyou...
Joking (kind of) aside, I'm intrigued that the Necrons are becoming more 'personalize' in the sense that the lords have different characteristics. Actually, the trading and brofisting ignored, I think it makes them more akin to the persona of a terminator. Now they can 'outthink' their opponents in several different ways tactically. The impatient Lord will use Blitzkrieg, and the happy Lord will talk all the problems out the door.
(Anyone wanna make a smart*** remark so I have something new for my sig? )
xlEternitylx wrote:Awww. Looks like I'm going to have to change my sig soon - turns out the possibility of hugs as weapons is a lot more reasonable now that the 'crons are (somewhat) diplomatic and open to the possibility to trade an whathaveyou...
Joking (kind of) aside, I'm intrigued that the Necrons are becoming more 'personalize' in the sense that the lords have different characteristics. Actually, the trading and brofisting ignored, I think it makes them more akin to the persona of a terminator. Now they can 'outthink' their opponents in several different ways tactically. The impatient Lord will use Blitzkrieg, and the happy Lord will talk all the problems out the door.
(Anyone wanna make a smart*** remark so I have something new for my sig? )
Why do people assume that the Necron Lords didn't do this kind of gak already?
Why do people make assumptions on Necron fluff when they really don't know what they think they do?
I mean, sure, I guess it's not like Necron Lords have infiltrated the Inquisition, masquerading as Inquisitors, with a fleshy face and all... Oh wait they have done that.
xlEternitylx wrote:Awww. Looks like I'm going to have to change my sig soon - turns out the possibility of hugs as weapons is a lot more reasonable now that the 'crons are (somewhat) diplomatic and open to the possibility to trade an whathaveyou...
Joking (kind of) aside, I'm intrigued that the Necrons are becoming more 'personalize' in the sense that the lords have different characteristics. Actually, the trading and brofisting ignored, I think it makes them more akin to the persona of a terminator. Now they can 'outthink' their opponents in several different ways tactically. The impatient Lord will use Blitzkrieg, and the happy Lord will talk all the problems out the door.
(Anyone wanna make a smart*** remark so I have something new for my sig? )
Why do people assume that the Necron Lords didn't do this kind of gak already?
Why do people make assumptions on Necron fluff when they really don't know what they think they do?
I mean, sure, I guess it's not like Necron Lords have infiltrated the Inquisition, masquerading as Inquisitors, with a fleshy face and all... Oh wait they have done that.
Haha! I remember that story vaguely. Ah, the good old evil days...
Void__Dragon wrote:
Lol. Yeah because the Necrons, who could not beat the Old Ones without the help of the C'tan, being capable of exterminating the C'tan to a man effectively makes a lot of sense.
It can do. You're talking about to completely different types of enemy here. The Old Ones used Psychic powers, the C'tan couldn't and had to use the Materium. I'd imagine such powerful Psykers would have been incredibly difficult for the Necrons to have defeated, whereas having served alongside the C'tan, may have discovered some of their weaknesses during battle. Not to mention the boost in power the Necrons received from the C'tan.
I think there's a misunderstanding with why we (I say we, what I'm about to say may not fit your personal reasons for not liking it)don't like what we're hearing of the fluff is not because the Necrons are humanised, but rather they're being humanised the wrong way.
What I mean by that is that instead of focusing on the bitterness of being trapped in machines to never feel again and to serve almost unstoppable beings, they're instead humanised with strange concepts like honour and valor.
Instead of focusing on that bitterness driving Necrons to purge the stars, the team focused on concepts that don't seem to fit possible motives which would drive them to act the way they do. it doesn't fit their theme and previous ideals
So I'd say just perhaps consider that before you dismiss the dislike of the new background as just not wanting change to happen.
From what i gather some C'tan, including the Void Dragon is still at full strenght as he was never found by the Necrons. I think this whole change allows for deeper background stories behind both the Necrons and the C'tan.
Most people havnt read Xeneology, that book is more elusive than the higgs boson.
Dont get me wrong, I understand that the change is controversial and taht some people wont like it. I dont like some parts of it, for example the trading part. What could a race like the Necrons POSSIBLY want/need that the other races have. They are in the stone age compared to them. Not to mention, if they wanted it im sure they would just fly their ships over there and take them by force. That part doesnt make sense to me. To me the Necrons are a race who think they are better than everyone else (because they are!) and want to be on top again. They have values now, values that fit quite well into their role in the universe. Im not sure where im going with this because im dead tired and I think im just rambling on about goo gaa atm but I hope you get my point.
The way I've always understood the necrons is that they are still a mystery to everyone, and this codex just brings out the next wave of discoveries, if that makes sense. ANyway off to sleep i go!
Originally there were 100 C'tan. After the Necrons beat the Old Ones, drove off the Eldar and the Orks. The Deciever (the Eldar Laughing God) drove the first of the C'tan (the Outsider) to feed on another of its kind. And thats what started the civil war between the C'tan until only 4 were left.
The Nightbringer, The Deciever, The Void Dragon and the Outsider. Nightbringer slept the longest and when he fought on that world he had just woke up and barely holding the necrodermis together.
The Void Dragon woke up first and was on ancient Terra. It was the Emperor that battled it and then inprisoned it in the Noctis Labyrinth on Mars so that the priesthood would eventually find it and plundering its mind to advance the technology of man for his eventual Great Crusade. And it still slumbers inside mars. There is a very short story in one of the BFG books where a trio of Necron ships smash through the Sol System defenses, devastate the Martian orbital defenses and then lands on Mars. Shortly after that they vanish.
The Deciever wakes up next and begins its plots. It throws the Talismans of Vaul (the blackstone fortresses) into the Warp, because it was the only weapon capable of killing a fully awake C'tan. Warp energy is their antithesis. It sets into motion other events that will lead to their emergence. Psychic blanks, devoid of any warp presence, souless and capable of becoming Pariahs. Its plots and mechanations span millions of years.
And least known of all is the Outsider who still slumbers on an unknown Tomb World.
Not necessarily. There's still a lot more stuff in the book, and whilst I trust what yakface has relayed to us from his sources, I know for a fact there are still some things left unexplained until the full codex is out.
You know, I think some people make it worse for themselves. The Silent King feels guilt over what happened to his people, so hes an emo wuss that went to brood outside the galaxy.
The Necrons sometimes make alliances and trade with lesser races, so they're now FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE! and more likely to help the Imperoum than fight it.
The Necrons are better than the C'tan!
Some Lords have sentience and plans, now they're humans in robot bodies!
The Necrons are scared of the Eldar!
All of this is taken from the broad info we've been given by yakface and co. and vast majority of it are stupid generalizations or selected to make the Necrons look worse in the eyes of those who preferred the old book.
iproxtaco wrote:The Silent King feels guilt over what happened to his people, so hes an emo wuss that went to brood outside the galaxy.
Yep, exactly. If you don't think that the Silent King proposing the War in Heaven a a team-building exercise and then feeling all supar guilty and sad about what happened isn't a complete 180 in the fluff, you're wrong.
The Necrons sometimes make alliances and trade with lesser races, so they're now FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE! and more likely to help the Imperoum than fight it.
Making alliances I could kinda deal with, as in, sure they will fight against a threat like Chaos rather than the Imperium, but trading? What the hell could they possibly need from the other races? They don't need food, and their technology is the best in the galaxy.
And no one said that.
The Necrons are better than the C'tan!
Considering they broke the C'tan into tiny tiny pieces and now enslave the pieces as war engines, yes, the Necrons are stronger than the C'tan as a race.
Lovecraft wouldn't be considered a very good cosmic horror writer if his cosmic horrors were being broken into little pieces and used as war engines.
Some Lords have sentience and plans, now they're humans in robot bodies!
No it's the fact that now they display very human characteristics and lost what originally made them so alien and inhuman. They have always had sentience, they have always been capable of other methods, "plans" for how they go about the harvesting business. Should that of been emphasized better? Yes, I'll admit that.
The Necrons are scared of the Eldar!
This part is probably an exagerration, I'll give you.
All of this is taken from the broad info we've been given by yakface and co. and vast majority of it are stupid generalizations or selected to make the Necrons look worse in the eyes of those who preferred the old book.
Most of my posts typically have me saying "If all of the rumors are true or not taken out of context," or something to that effect.
But if the rumors are true? Sorry Ward, your complete retcon of the Necrons is not for me.
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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:It can do. You're talking about to completely different types of enemy here. The Old Ones used Psychic powers, the C'tan couldn't and had to use the Materium. I'd imagine such powerful Psykers would have been incredibly difficult for the Necrons to have defeated, whereas having served alongside the C'tan, may have discovered some of their weaknesses during battle. Not to mention the boost in power the Necrons received from the C'tan.
The C'tan are capable of feats greater than even the most powerful of psykers. Even the Emperor. Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan.
For that matter, the C'tan come off as incredibly stupid for getting themselves sealed. They originally didn't have a linear perspective of time. Now they are shattered remnants and slaves. Not as planned indeed.
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Thatguy91 wrote:From what i gather some C'tan, including the Void Dragon is still at full strenght as he was never found by the Necrons. I think this whole change allows for deeper background stories behind both the Necrons and the C'tan.
Yeah man deeper background stories of what your own little Necron Overlord does for gaks and giggles with his own pet C'tan.
What greater depth can there be concerning the C'tan? They're just pieces of a single being, slaves to their former minions.
Sure, I don't doubt the codex will make it easier for the Necron Lords to have background written about them, but what you don't seem to understand is that the Necrons didn't have to take a complete 180 for that to happen.
Most people havnt read Xeneology, that book is more elusive than the higgs boson.
It's not hard to find online at all. But that's just one of the more noteworthy cases. Actually, another Necron speaks (And was doin' some of that thar infiltratin') in the Necron codex as well, IIRC.
Dont get me wrong, I understand that the change is controversial and taht some people wont like it. I dont like some parts of it, for example the trading part. What could a race like the Necrons POSSIBLY want/need that the other races have. They are in the stone age compared to them. Not to mention, if they wanted it im sure they would just fly their ships over there and take them by force. That part doesnt make sense to me. To me the Necrons are a race who think they are better than everyone else (because they are!) and want to be on top again. They have values now, values that fit quite well into their role in the universe. Im not sure where im going with this because im dead tired and I think im just rambling on about goo gaa atm but I hope you get my point.
Well dude, that's the thing, just taking what they need? Aw man, that'd be way too dishonorable.
I don't really get your point, honestly. They have values? You mean they're humanised.
The way I've always understood the necrons is that they are still a mystery to everyone, and this codex just brings out the next wave of discoveries, if that makes sense. ANyway off to sleep i go!
Or you could think of it for what it is: A retcon of the race's entire background.
I for one probably wont use a C'tan in my army, just because I've never thought that they are represented properly on TT. And i really hope that they "rediscover" some other C'tan that survived the Outsiders nom noming phase. I think the main reason I like this change is because im a sucker for fluff, because there are a few changes that I dont like, at all. For example the removal of we'll be back. It SHOULD be OP, thats waht necrons do. Ohhh you shot me, OWAIT i can repair myself, get back up and annihilate you. Phase out, meh, you know what since they re-did We'll be back it fits. But Necrons SHOULD have that ability to just stand up again and completely destroy everything and everyone. I think the nerfing of this has nerfed the "Scaryness" of the army aswell.
Void__Dragon wrote:
The C'tan are capable of feats greater than even the most powerful of psykers. Even the Emperor. Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan.
Other than the fact that we haven't necessarily seen the Emperor use His power to its utmost other than to destroy Horus, I'm not sure how much of the story alters (was it a particularly powerful shard? Was every single C'tan shattered? What happened between the Blackstone Fortresses and the Void Dragon? Did it get hit, flee, and then get shattered, or was it shattered and then hit, or even just get hit and flee, without being shattered at all?)
And regardless, the types of power are still completely different, especially since the Necrons became more powerful following their pact with the C'tan.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if this Lexicanum quote is true?
Lexicanum wrote:In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons.
Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?
For that matter, the C'tan come off as incredibly stupid for getting themselves sealed. They originally didn't have a linear perspective of time. Now they are shattered remnants and slaves. Not as planned indeed.
They always did to me. Assuming the Enslavers posed them no threat (which if I recall correctly assumes that the Deceiver or a Necron Lord (which was it in 'Deus Ex Mechanicus'?) was telling the truth about it just being that their food was dying (or is a more detailed explanation given in the Codex?)) then they could have destroyed the few remaining threats to them with ease but chose not to.
StormForged wrote:Chaos ain't got crap when playing around with the Imperium.
This right here is probably why they reduced the C'tans place in the current fluff. Chaos is meant to be the big bad. yet in recent fluff, they've been reduced to comical super villains. They want Chaos front and center again. The C'tan being so powerful kind of took away from the power of the Chaos gods. With the rumours floating around about 6th editions fluff direction, we can probably expect other races to be pushed back a little in the fluff as they emphasize the danger of Chaos.
I find that 40k fluff is full of deliberate mistakes made on behalf of the stronger forces in the galaxy... Stupidity is just another way to make the fluff seem balanced so to speak. I do not approve. -1
Void__Dragon wrote:It was established in that story that the Void Dragon was starving and weakened, and was slowly working towards regaining some of its former power. The Emperor fought a hard battle with it, and eventually prevailed.
Only... Now apparently that was not the true Void Dragon, but a shard. A weakened shard. So a weaker than normal 200 point model=Emperor? Who was able to stand against the massed might of the Chaos Gods?
The comparison doesn't work because the C'tan, even weakened, should have been far more powerful than their tabletop stats represented. They should never have been fieldable on the tabletop, even in Apocalypse they would have been too powerful. Their representation in the tabletop rules, however, are far easier to swallow if you consider that they're not actually the C'tan, but simply fragments of their power.
Void__Dragon wrote:It was established in that story that the Void Dragon was starving and weakened, and was slowly working towards regaining some of its former power. The Emperor fought a hard battle with it, and eventually prevailed.
Only... Now apparently that was not the true Void Dragon, but a shard. A weakened shard. So a weaker than normal 200 point model=Emperor? Who was able to stand against the massed might of the Chaos Gods?
The comparison doesn't work because the C'tan, even weakened, should have been far more powerful than their tabletop stats represented. They should never have been fieldable on the tabletop, even in Apocalypse they would have been too powerful. Their representation in the tabletop rules, however, are far easier to swallow if you consider that they're not actually the C'tan, but simply fragments of their power.
^ this. Its was a huge mistake on behalf of GW. Its like fielding the Chaos gods, its stupid and it was never going to work.
-Loki- wrote:The comparison doesn't work because the C'tan, even weakened, should have been far more powerful than their tabletop stats represented. They should never have been fieldable on the tabletop, even in Apocalypse they would have been too powerful. Their representation in the tabletop rules, however, are far easier to swallow if you consider that they're not actually the C'tan, but simply fragments of their power.
I'm speaking in terms of the "new" fluff. The shards of the C'tan are apparently pretty strong 200 point Monstrous Creatures.
Emperor is now<200 point Monstrous Creature.
I'm also not sure why you're lecturing me about something I have said multiple times in this thread: That the true C'tan should of never been fieldable.
Only GW neutering them and making them look like losers wasn't necessary to accomplish this. Since you know, a certain pretty popular videogame series made weaker avatars of the C'tan playable without neutering the entities on a whole.
Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?
Because it's only a SHARD of the Void Dragon, if the Emperor had to put that much effort into putting the SHARD back to a sleep of some sorts, imagine if he stumbled across the Void Dragon if it were complete. Yeah, he'd get his ass handed to him on a silver platter, next course, the human race.
-Loki- wrote:This right here is probably why they reduced the C'tans place in the current fluff. Chaos is meant to be the big bad. yet in recent fluff, they've been reduced to comical super villains. They want Chaos front and center again. The C'tan being so powerful kind of took away from the power of the Chaos gods. With the rumours floating around about 6th editions fluff direction, we can probably expect other races to be pushed back a little in the fluff as they emphasize the danger of Chaos.
Oh please, that's a butthurt excuse supported only by inaccurate views of the fluff.
If GW was so concerned about Chaos being a respectable Big Bad, they wouldn't of released the Grey Knights codex, which makes Chaos look like more of a joke than they've ever been.
The C'tan, even in the old codex, were all either:
a. Sealed.
Or
b. Starved and not at full power.
The C'tan weren't as immediate a threat as Chaos was, never. Could the Necrons and C'tan become the most horrible, and greatest threat in time? Maybe, but that helped give them a sense of dread. And frankly, they aren't even the only faction that conveyed a sense of dread, in that eventually, one of them would win. Chaos, the Tyranids, and the Necrons conveyed this.
Again, I haven't heard about the Big Four at all in the rumors. They may very well still be whole or mostly whole or sealed and just like they were.
Maybe the C'tan referred to are the ones that weren't eaten by the Outsider or the Nightbringer. They were instead imprisoned by the Necrons.
I have to read the whole codex to understand the C'tan predicament, personally. If the Big Four no longer exist, then, well, that sucks and the Emp isn't weakened. If they're shards, I expect the time line must be worked out somehow differently...I don't know what to think till the 'dex hits the market.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Other than the fact that we haven't necessarily seen the Emperor use His power to its utmost other than to destroy Horus, I'm not sure how much of the story alters (was it a particularly powerful shard? Was every single C'tan shattered? What happened between the Blackstone Fortresses and the Void Dragon? Did it get hit, flee, and then get shattered, or was it shattered and then hit, or even just get hit and flee, without being shattered at all?)
Why would the Emperor hold back against the Void Dragon? The Void Dragon wasn't his misguided son, it was a cosmic horror trying to kill him and threatening the human race.
And like I said, context or whatever may be different when the codex comes out, to stifle my butthurt.
But in the old fluff, the Dragon most definitely survived the fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.
And regardless, the types of power are still completely different, especially since the Necrons became more powerful following their pact with the C'tan.
Not really. There isn't much that a psyker can do, even the strongest of them, that a C'tan can't.
And if the C'tan made the Necrons more powerful than they were while betraying them: They're idiots.
Out of curiosity, does anyone know if this Lexicanum quote is true?
Lexicanum wrote:In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons.
Theoretically, sure. In fact, Magnus the Red has demonstrated it is very much possible to destroy a Titan. Not that it matters. The C'tan in the Necron codex can annihilate solar systems on a whim.
Also, how does the Void Dragon lose to the Emperor if it is still more powerful?
Because that was not merely a shard of the Dragon, but one that was, if Mechanicum hasn't been retconned (Holy gak, retconning one of the Horus Heresy books? Wowo), a STARVED shard. One that was a weakened fragment of the real thing.
They always did to me. Assuming the Enslavers posed them no threat (which if I recall correctly assumes that the Deceiver or a Necron Lord (which was it in 'Deus Ex Mechanicus'?) was telling the truth about it just being that their food was dying (or is a more detailed explanation given in the Codex?)) then they could have destroyed the few remaining threats to them with ease but chose not to.
I am pretty sure that the guy who states that the Enslavers posed no threat was a Necron Lord, would have to check.
And the reason they didn't is partly because the Deceiver made use of them to gimp the Nightbringer, and the Void Dragon was already napping due to being hit by a fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.
I say bring on the full scale C'tan, but keep them the feth off our TT. Keep them in the fluff where they belong, give us shards of the previously unknown C'tan, any survivors of the Outsiders noming. I just want more of them in general tbh.
Thatguy91 wrote:I say bring on the full scale C'tan, but keep them the feth off our TT. Keep them in the fluff where they belong, give us shards of the previously unknown C'tan, any survivors of the Outsiders noming. I just want more of them in general tbh.
I'd actually be fine with this, and agree that the true C'tan should stay the hell away from the TT.
The big four are who I am mainly concerned with.
I think the shards being the remnants of lots of nomming would be pretty kewl.
To appease people who already have Nightbringer and Deceiver models, fluff could say that sometimes the remaining C'tan would mockingly have the shards of former enemy C'tan modeled in their own image. For lulz.
Yeah, that would kinda fit well with it aswell. The ego boost, humiliation etc. I think that could really work. Im hoping that the big four stay out of the whole shard thing, it just.. I mean they are already part of so much random fluff it wouldnt make sense to change them so much.
You could have powered down the C'tan simply by stating they're starving and weakened from their long hibernation and are in need of an enormous amount of souls. They are unable to stay in a physical form able to do battle for very long because of this. You don't have to have them essentially destroyed and enslaved.
Harriticus wrote:This was posted on Warseer, supposedly deals with the scattered Necron domains now (called Dynasties):
The White Dwarf gives us quite a bit of info:
Dynasties seem to be our 'cabals', 'chapters' or what have you. They have a color scheme and a short background. They "rule" parts of the galaxy and consist of multiple Tomb Worlds. An Overlord can apparently rule multiple worlds (as seen in the breakdown of the Sautekh Dynasty, which has Overlords with titles such as "Regent of the Sautekh homeworlds", "Regent of the Sautekh Fringeworlds", but also "Regent of Gheisten".
Some Dynasties are ruled by others...once again, two Dynasties are given (Sekemtar and Arrynmarok) that are ruled by Imotekh from the Sautekh Dynasty.
The Sautekh Dynasty, while currently the most powerful Dynasty, was only the third most powerful Dynasty before the biotransference. Currently ruled by Imotekh, who indeed seems to be 40k's version of Settra.
The Charnovokh Dynasty is mentioned as eaten mostly by Tyranids. This has pushed them into restoring ancient dolmen gates that connect their realms to the wider galaxy. This does put an end to the old speculation about Tyranids avoiding Necrons/Tomb Worlds in general.
The Nihilakh Dynasty gives us a Dynasty that just keeps to themselves and has no intention of conquering the galaxy. They are very defensive of their territory though. Kinda like Wood Elves
The Nekthyst Dynasty are noted as traitors, turncoats and oathbreakers. The "taint of dishonour" still hangs heavy over them, and they mostly operate as mercenaries. Mercenary contracts are the only promise they never seem to break. What this also tells us (along with the teaser-trailer) is that Necrons apparently value treaties, pacts and honor quite a bit, to make such a big deal out of the Nekthyst Dynasty breaking them. In D&D terms, Necrons in general are definitely on the Lawful side of the alignment scale.
The common cause for all Necrons is given as "rebuilding the Necron dynasties and the return of the Necrons to their rightful supremacy." They feel they should be in charge. Once again, pretty Lawful (Evil?) guys.
The Bone Kingdom of Drazak is the Flayed One kingdom located in the north-eastern Ghoul Stars, led by a Flayed One King. They're the "fresh meat" zombies/ghouls, that go on random killing sprees. Needless to say, Flayed Ones aren't very respected by the other Necrons. It's said that it's a C'tan curse, not a normal madness or disease, that plagues them.
The Stasis Docks of Seidon were once in the center of the Necrontyr empire. The "master program" of these Docks broke down, so it sends fleets to random locations every thirty-three weeks. The local Overlord is apparently unaware of this.
Thanatos and the Celestial Orrery. The Celestial Orrery is said to be one of the galaxy's greatest treasures. It has a small light for every star in the galaxy. Snuff out the light, and the star will soon follow.
So apparently, Necrons value honor quite a bit and look down on Tomb Worlds which break pacts, go back on their word, act dishonorable, etc.. In addition Flayed Ones are viewed with disdain for being too violent.
Oi vey Necrons, what have they done to you. I really don't understand why they're machines anymore there's no point to it.
While Im all for toning down the power of the Ctan/Necrons some this is indeed BS. WTF would Nids be interested in a Tomb World empire?! Also, why havent the Necrons rofelstomped them before they even entered orbit ect
I think this is indeed a quite crappy change if this turns out to be true
Wow..this sounds horrible to me..
Also some of those names reminded me of "a thousand sons" xD
I don't get why they can't just do small retcons and flesh out the fluff. Nooo, they have to take the old fluff into the woods, smack it in the head with a sock filled with batteries, pour gasoline on it and throw a burning match in its direction while already walking away..
I hope theres a new codex out there that will actually make me WANT to play TT instead of just ruining it more and more for me..
Harriticus wrote:You could have powered down the C'tan simply by stating they're starving and weakened from their long hibernation and are in need of an enormous amount of souls. They are unable to stay in a physical form able to do battle for very long because of this. You don't have to have them essentially destroyed and enslaved.
C'tan need to inhabit a necrodermis body. They just don't make themselves materialized. What gives the C'tan its power is its massive form is condensed and focus otherwise its just to great, its consciousness to spread out to use its awesome power. When a C'tan leaves its Necrodermis body its going to feed on the one source it knows it can gain energy from quickly, a star. And they need souls/stars to recover, but its not like they materialize like daemons do.
Russ Mandarin wrote:The Necrons are now afraid of the Eldar too
They had a bitter rivalry beforehand, due to the huge wars they had. Their rivalries were built on the fact the eldar had weapons which could defeat their gods, the c'tan. In all fairness they shouldnt be afraid, just extremely hateful towards them, moreso than they are to other races
Who's to say all shards are equal? They'e called shards, like shards of glass. If you break a window pane, you have tiny dust like fragments, and huge sharp pieces. The Dragon could have been a huge shard that escaped the Necrons, hence why it was roaming around Earth. There could well be other similar C'tan out there. The Outsider? The one C'tan that escaped, fleeing like a wounded Mammoth chased by the cavemen, killing its own brothers to survive, eventually turning mad due to its fate.
If fighting with them nearly broke the Necron empire, an empire that has things like World Engines, then yeah, its safe to assume the fight was beyond measure.
If anything, it substantially buffed how strong they were. Every fight with them so far has been retconned to be a fight with a "shard."
This essentially means the Emperor went from being the guy who could punch C'Tan in the face to the guy who could only punch a shard in the face.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
The C'tan own reality. The Emperor is in reality. Ergo, the C'tan own the Emperor.
Well, the weakened Void Dragon could not, and neither could they 'own' the Necrons, apparently. Besides, if they all 'owned' reality, they could not have varying power levels.
King Pariah wrote:Because it's only a SHARD of the Void Dragon, if the Emperor had to put that much effort into putting the SHARD back to a sleep of some sorts, imagine if he stumbled across the Void Dragon if it were complete. Yeah, he'd get his ass handed to him on a silver platter, next course, the human race.
Well, I don't know if we know that the Void Dragon was also shattered. It wouldn't really fit with hibernating after being attacked with the Blackstone Fortresses.
Regardless, I was the comment that "Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan." by Void_Dragon, when the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon (so the Emperor is not weaker than only a shard of a C'tan).
Void__Dragon wrote:Why would the Emperor hold back against the Void Dragon? The Void Dragon wasn't his misguided son, it was a cosmic horror trying to kill him and threatening the human race.
Oh, the Emperor wouldn't hold back, that it doesn't necessarily follow that He could or would use His full power (there are different types of Psychic power afterall, and we don't know His goal (whether or not He actually wanted to kill the Dragon or was merely trying to capture it (I know He said that He couldn't, but He wasn't necessarily telling the truth when He was planning on using the Dragon all along)).
But in the old fluff, the Dragon most definitely survived the fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.
Truth, but in the old background, the Dragon fled and hid because of the Blackstone Fortresses, not because he was shattered. I'm not sure if it now goes: hit by Blackstone Fortresses -> shattered -> shard ends up on earth or if the Dragon avoids getting shattered because he goes to hide straight away.
Not really. There isn't much that a psyker can do, even the strongest of them, that a C'tan can't.
Possibly, although the limits of each haven't really been explored. But still, there may be ways of protecting against the C'tan that don't work against Psykers.
And if the C'tan made the Necrons more powerful than they were while betraying them: They're idiots.
And incredibly arrogant. Although I suppose that it may have been that Necrons were planning their revenge for a long time and developed ways of countering the C'tan (to an extent) without their knowledge.
Or, possibly, the C'tan just tipped the scales in favour of the Necrons rather than merely being more powerful than the Old Ones.
Theoretically, sure. In fact, Magnus the Red has demonstrated it is very much possible to destroy a Titan. Not that it matters. The C'tan in the Necron codex can annihilate solar systems on a whim.
I was referring to the "nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will", which would include anything that a C'tan can do. Theoretically, of course.
Because that was not merely a shard of the Dragon, but one that was, if Mechanicum hasn't been retconned (Holy gak, retconning one of the Horus Heresy books? Wowo), a STARVED shard. One that was a weakened fragment of the real thing.
Yes, but you said that the Emperor was weaker than it when from my interpretation He was stronger than it (you said that "the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan". Besides, it may have been a particularly large and powerful shard.
And the reason they didn't is partly because the Deceiver made use of them to gimp the Nightbringer, and the Void Dragon was already napping due to being hit by a fleet of Blackstone Fortresses.
Wait, how did the Deceiver use the Blackstone Fortresses? It always seemed weird to me how they were portrayed as nearly all-powerful save against Psychic attacks and yet didn't just shred the Blackstone Fortresses with their powers.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Regardless, I was the comment that "Especially since now the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan." by Void_Dragon, when the Emperor defeated the Void Dragon (so the Emperor is not weaker than only a shard of a C'tan).
I read the story.
The Emperor was more or less equal to the Void Dragon he fought (Though the Void Dragon was kicking his ass the entire fight until the Emperor struck his weak spot). Originally, this was the true Void Dragon, only starved and weakened. Now, if it is indeed a shard, it is now a shard of the Void Dragon that was starved and weakened.
Ergo, Emperor<Shard of Void Dragon at full power><<<Complete Void Dragon.
Oh, the Emperor wouldn't hold back, that it doesn't necessarily follow that He could or would use His full power (there are different types of Psychic power afterall, and we don't know His goal (whether or not He actually wanted to kill the Dragon or was merely trying to capture it (I know He said that He couldn't, but He wasn't necessarily telling the truth when He was planning on using the Dragon all along)).
According to the Emperor and to every other statement on it in Mechanicum, the Emperor couldn't kill the Dragon, not wouldn't, couldn't. I guess you can assume these were lies, but that would be just that, an assumption.
Truth, but in the old background, the Dragon fled and hid because of the Blackstone Fortresses, not because he was shattered. I'm not sure if it now goes: hit by Blackstone Fortresses -> shattered -> shard ends up on earth or if the Dragon avoids getting shattered because he goes to hide straight away.
Because he just got hit by a fleet of the only weapon able to kill a C'tan short of another C'tan.
And the Dragon running and hiding because he's scared, like you said may of happened? Yeah man, that doesn't pussify the C'tan at all.
Possibly, although the limits of each haven't really been explored. But still, there may be ways of protecting against the C'tan that don't work against Psykers.
Name them.
And incredibly arrogant. Although I suppose that it may have been that Necrons were planning their revenge for a long time and developed ways of countering the C'tan (to an extent) without their knowledge.
Which makes them look stupid. The Deceiver was originally a masterful player of the Long Game, able to even outwit and outmaneuver other C'tan and come out on top despite being the weakest of them, now it makes the Necrons stronger than they are and proceeds to get shattered and enslaved. Before that, the only thing that truly caught the Deceiver off guard was the emergence of Chaos, as well as the last assault of the Old Ones.
Or, possibly, the C'tan just tipped the scales in favour of the Necrons rather than merely being more powerful than the Old Ones.
Which is another retcon, originally the reason the Old Ones' struggle was truly futile was because of the "Utter supremacy of the C'tan in the material universe."
I was referring to the "nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will", which would include anything that a C'tan can do. Theoretically, of course.
Theoretically? Maybe. In practice? No, no psyker has ever been shown imprinting itself into proto-life's psyche as the face of death, or annihilating solar systems on a whim. I guess you could assume that the Old Ones were a race of God Emperors, but that seems highly unlikely, and if the Old Ones were more powerful individually than C'tan, then the C'tan wouldn't of crushed them.
Yes, but you said that the Emperor was weaker than it when from my interpretation He was stronger than it (you said that "the Emperor is in fact weaker than a weakened shard of a single C'tan". Besides, it may have been a particularly large and powerful shard.
He was equal to it, maybe. He didn't win because he was able to outpower it though, not by a long shot. Before the Emperor's attacks couldn't even hurt it, and it overpowered him and started to crush the life out of him, until he struck its weak point. He won, but not because he was more powerful.
Wait, how did the Deceiver use the Blackstone Fortresses? It always seemed weird to me how they were portrayed as nearly all-powerful save against Psychic attacks and yet didn't just shred the Blackstone Fortresses with their powers.
Hm? Oh, the Deceiver did not, the Void Dragon being hit by Blackstone Fortresses was on the behalf of the Eldar race, though it is possible that the Eldar instigated it.
The Blackstone Fortresses are the most powerful psychic weapons in the galaxy, and the one greatest threat to a C'tan. Hence why the Deceiver organised the Gothic War to have them either destroyed or taken beyond the reach of the Eldar.>
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BeefCakeSoup wrote:C'Tan weren't nerfed.
If fighting with them nearly broke the Necron empire, an empire that has things like World Engines, then yeah, its safe to assume the fight was beyond measure.
If anything, it substantially buffed how strong they were. Every fight with them so far has been retconned to be a fight with a "shard."
This essentially means the Emperor went from being the guy who could punch C'Tan in the face to the guy who could only punch a shard in the face.
In-universe? Perhaps not. Almost hilariously you could make a convincing argument for the Void Dragon being more powerful than the Chaos Gods combined now, actually.
But from a narrative standpoint?
They are now doomed to be given the Avatar of Khaine treatment, to be punched in half by Ultramarines.
As long as they don't retcon the C'tan into nothing but TTMC's, I'll be ok with it. I'd be ok with the Deceiver running around a'la Tzeentch and just screwing with things, but never bringing his full power to bear. If the Void Dragon is just a shard, that's still one crazy powerful shard to have not only put up a good fight against the Emperor, but to also to have created the Mechanicum simply by existing near the humans on Mars. The Nightbringer, well I guess you'd have to make that a shard, otherwise he would have eaten the entire Ultima Segmentum already. And the Outsider? I wonder how strong he is, or hell, is he even really still in the Dyson Sphere or did they retcon that part, too?
I always liked the C'tan being the materium counterpart to the Chaos gods, but apparently GW likes Chaos being the uber bad guys and everyone else gets reduced to Space Marine punching-bag status.
SoulGazer wrote:
I always liked the C'tan being the materium counterpart to the Chaos gods, but apparently GW likes Chaos being the uber bad guys and everyone else gets reduced to Space Marine punching-bag status.
That's funny. A lot of people, and I mean a lot, would like Chaos to actually be the big-bad. Perhaps until now, Chaos were the enemy that was supposed to be the uber bad guys, but were frankly overshadowed by the likes of the C'tan. Just another reason I like the new fluff.
iproxtaco wrote:That's funny. A lot of people, and I mean a lot, would like Chaos to actually be the big-bad. Perhaps until now, Chaos were the enemy that was supposed to be the uber bad guys, but were frankly overshadowed by the likes of the C'tan. Just another reason I like the new fluff.
Right.
Because with two C'tan being sleeping and imprisoned, and the other two being weakened and starved, they were definitely encroaching on the Chaos' title of the Big Bad.
If there is any faction that ever upstaged Chaos, it would be the Tyranids. Or it could be GW's incompetence at making Chaos come off as threatening enough.
iproxtaco wrote:That's funny. A lot of people, and I mean a lot, would like Chaos to actually be the big-bad. Perhaps until now, Chaos were the enemy that was supposed to be the uber bad guys, but were frankly overshadowed by the likes of the C'tan. Just another reason I like the new fluff.
Right.
Because with two C'tan being sleeping and imprisoned, and the other two being weakened and starved, they were definitely encroaching on the Chaos' title of the Big Bad.
If there is any faction that ever upstaged Chaos, it would be the Tyranids. Or it could be GW's incompetence at making Chaos come off as threatening enough.
I'm confused, aren't you the same person that has spent all this time trying to emphasis the contrast between the old and new C'tan? Like being able to imprint an image of death into every living organism bar one species, and being able to snuff out entire star systems on a whim. The Big Four have not presented to do anything like this, they must act through their servants.
iproxtaco wrote:I'm confused, aren't you the same person that has spent all this time trying to emphasis the contrast between the old and new C'tan? Like being able to imprint an image of death into every living organism bar one species, and being able to snuff out entire star systems on a whim. The Big Four have not presented to do anything like this, they must act through their servants.
You are indeed confused.
The C'tan did do that.
... In the past. Millions of years ago.
In the current 40k timeline, the Chaos Gods are a much bigger threat than the C'tan were.
Was there potential for, in the future, the C'tan could regain their full might and become just as threatening as they used to? Yes, that's what cosmic horror is about, cosmic, horrifying threats, that even if they are not capable of destroying the world (Galaxy) now, inevitably the world is doomed.
In 40k, there are three factions that serve such a role, Chaos, the Tyranids, and the C'tan/Necrons.
The difference being that Chaos and the Tyranids are very immediate threats, with the Necrons being a looming, not as active threat.
Narratively, the C'tan could of had the potential to be the Big Bads of the setting, maybe, but in the current timeline, the legions of Chaos and the gods they serve were the Big Bad, with the Tyranids being perhaps the only full faction who could contest Chaos' claim on this. Maybe.
The Chaos Gods and the C'tan were essentially opposites, yes, one being powerful in the Materium, the other the Immaterium, but the C'tan were far less of an immediate threat than the Chaos Gods and their servants were, in the current timeline.
Agreed, although I still think the potential of the C'tan somewhat overshadowed even the current threat of Chaos.
One thing I do disagree on his the removal of any potential involving the C'tan. From my point of view this has only increased it. The C'tan were largely defeated - although the details aren't yet available - yet the current details as scarce as they are tell us that they were only defeated at extreme cost to the Necron Empire, to the point where they had to hibernate of 60,000,000 years to avoid confrontation with the Eldar. We've also been told the Necrons actually fear what could happen if their old masters were to return to power. Both them and the Eldar are not what they once were, a full powered C'tan could well be like they were previously. Then of course there's the potential that some C'tan may have survived. The Outsider? Dare we speculate what destruction a crazed Star-God could wreak?
iproxtaco wrote:Agreed, although I still think the potential of the C'tan somewhat overshadowed even the current threat of Chaos.
I'll give you that, but conversely, Chaos, were it to "win", would evolve to a threat that would kill the C'tan. Were either Chaos or the Necrons to of one, the other would have been destroyed, the Immaterium and Materium no longer being separated (Which will apparently start to happen when the Emperor dies) would of killed the C'tan, and the C'tan severing the Materium from the Immaterium would kill Chaos as well, if it would be a slow starvation or an immediate death is hard to say.
One thing I do disagree on his the removal of any potential involving the C'tan. From my point of view this has only increased it. The C'tan were largely defeated - although the details aren't yet available - yet the current details as scarce as they are tell us that they were only defeated at extreme cost to the Necron Empire, to the point where they had to hibernate of 60,000,000 years to avoid confrontation with the Eldar. We've also been told the Necrons actually fear what could happen if their old masters were to return to power. Both them and the Eldar are not what they once were, a full powered C'tan could well be like they were previously. Then of course there's the potential that some C'tan may have survived. The Outsider? Dare we speculate what destruction a crazed Star-God could wreak?
I'd actually be more okay with this if the big four, especially the Void Dragon and Deceiver, were not enslaved.
I'll admit that, in-setting, this change might of indeed made the C'tan more powerful.
But narratively they will never reach that level of power again, and will just end up being the standard Monstrous Creature that has the honor of being punched in half by special characters.
I can actually admit that, conceivably, this change could be legitimately interesting and maybe even a cool guy... Were it written competently. Let's be honest: It won't be, not if Ward is writing it.
If you want a couple of cool and out of the box ideas for a "necron" like race go check out Ixions post in the fiction forums. Brilliant if you ask me. Do it.
Taking the fluff into his own hands.
Also If anyone would be interested I want to start a Necron fiction discussion thread in that section of the forum. Discussing various things just like the one above and having the thread dedicated to intelligent discussion and sharing of ideas. Any interest in this, let me know here or PM me. I think we could have alot of fun with that.
So far he has never been defeated, though if the Stormlord has one weakness it is that he rarely kills his defeated foes - preferring to leave them alive to suffer the humiliation of defeat (and maybe a lost limb or two).
Oh no.... oh god no... I didn't believe the rumors at first. I was thinking, "The whole theme of the Necrons is that they're enslaved to thirsting eldritch abominations, they wouldn't have them become honorable Egyptian robots who enslaved the C'tan." I heard Matt Ward was working on it and I thought, "But he's hated, they wouldn't have him do a codex this big. Everyone is just being negative."
Well, looks like I'm too much of an optimist. 5th Edition may mark the decline of 40k.
So far he has never been defeated, though if the Stormlord has one weakness it is that he rarely kills his defeated foes - preferring to leave them alive to suffer the humiliation of defeat (and maybe a lost limb or two).
Why would a machine care about that!?!?!? Damn you Matt Ward!
This argument would make more sense if the Necrons were actual machines, and not machine bodies containing real consciousness. They're as sentient as any other race; the mechanical aspect is purely physical. That being the case, it's no dumber than a Space Marine doing the same thing for the same reasons.
Ixion wrote:This argument would make more sense if the Necrons were actual machines, and not machine bodies containing real consciousness. They're as sentient as any other race; the mechanical aspect is purely physical. That being the case, it's no dumber than a Space Marine doing the same thing for the same reasons.
feth yeah, idiotic cartoon villainy has been the domain of Chaos Space Marines and Dark Eldar for far too long! Now the Necrons are getting into some of that action!
So far he has never been defeated, though if the Stormlord has one weakness it is that he rarely kills his defeated foes - preferring to leave them alive to suffer the humiliation of defeat (and maybe a lost limb or two).
Why would a machine care about that!?!?!? Damn you Matt Ward!
This argument would make more sense if the Necrons were actual machines, and not machine bodies containing real consciousness. They're as sentient as any other race; the mechanical aspect is purely physical. That being the case, it's no dumber than a Space Marine doing the same thing for the same reasons.
That's exactly a problem with the new fluff, there's no point to the Necrons being in metal bodies. They were an army of merciless machines bent on ending organic life before. They had a kind of machine nature and percision to them. Now they're just the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There's no machine aspect, which takes away from the unique feel of the army enormously.
Nooo... I didn't believe the rumours I guess I'll just pretend this retcon never happened from now on and ignore any mention of the C'tan being imprisoned...
Harriticus wrote:That's exactly a problem with the new fluff, there's no point to the Necrons being in metal bodies. They were an army of merciless machines bent on ending organic life before. They had a kind of machine nature and percision to them. Now they're just the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There's no machine aspect, which takes away from the unique feel of the army enormously.
That's what hits me as strange about the complaint-- they always were the Necrontyr in metal bodies. The changes are now more of them are actually fully sentient, and they've been given personalities, and on the latter I'm afraid I must concede that not a lot of good work has been done that I've been able to ascertain. The concept has merit, but the direction it's been taken in is bland at best.
Which is to say nothing of the Egyptian inspirations. Before they were subtle, defined in broad enough terms and masked under enough black metal to be palatable; now it's laid on with a trowel and is too obvious to ignore even by those of us who want to. So let it not be said that I'm only defending the new Necrons because they're new; I do take issue with a number of elements of their design, just not with the concept of revision itself.
Harriticus wrote:That's exactly a problem with the new fluff, there's no point to the Necrons being in metal bodies. They were an army of merciless machines bent on ending organic life before. They had a kind of machine nature and percision to them. Now they're just the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There's no machine aspect, which takes away from the unique feel of the army enormously.
That's what hits me as strange about the complaint-- they always were the Necrontyr in metal bodies. The changes are now more of them are actually fully sentient, and they've been given personalities, and on the latter I'm afraid I must concede that not a lot of good work has been done that I've been able to ascertain. The concept has merit, but the direction it's been taken in is bland at best.
Which is to say nothing of the Egyptian inspirations. Before they were subtle, defined in broad enough terms and masked under enough black metal to be palatable; now it's laid on with a trowel and is too obvious to ignore even by those of us who want to. So let it not be said that I'm only defending the new Necrons because they're new; I do take issue with a number of elements of their design, just not with the concept of revision itself.
They were what remained of the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There was a tragic story behind them and this was combined with the concept of a machine army, something a sci-fi setting like 40k needed. Now they're basically the Necrontyr in every respect but their flesh. You could give higher level Necron Lords some kind of personality without utterly ruining their lore by killing off C'tan, making Necrons trade with other races or do moronic things like spare enemies, and so on.
Harriticus wrote:They were what remained of the Necrontyr in metal bodies. There was a tragic story behind them and this was combined with the concept of a machine army, something a sci-fi setting like 40k needed. Now they're basically the Necrontyr in every respect but their flesh. You could give higher level Necron Lords some kind of personality without utterly ruining their lore by killing off C'tan, making Necrons trade with other races or do moronic things like spare enemies, and so on.
To be perfectly honest, I know what you mean; mercy is something pretty much out of place in the entire 40k universe. The sparing of foes I could perhaps see coming from the Tau, but the Necrons have little motive to do so-- at least as we know them. For all I know, there's some huge reveal in the works explaining a whole expanded history where this makes perfect sense for them, but I get the nagging feeling that'd get pounced on as heresy as well.
So if I'm sorting all this out correctly, the gripe is that the new Necrons don't take full advantage of their now vestigial robotic bodies or their machine nature, losing their great tragic motivation in the process. I think would feel this loss more sharply if I felt like their original backstory actually was tragic; there's just so much else that goes on in 40k by comparison that I just can't get worked up over them being taken advantage of by the C'tan. Just the Imperium's day-to-day status quo tugs more heartstrings.
It's not supposed to be tragic as much as it is terrifying, and incomprehensible.
The Necrontyr as a race were consumed and united by a single-minded hatred so great that they sold their souls and their freedom, damning themselves so they could act on their hatred.
Now, as I said before, rather than uniting out of an ancient and singular hatred, their war against the Old Ones was a team-building exercise.
Void__Dragon wrote:Frankly the idea that an alien race should be humanised is idiotic.
Even the Tau and Eldar are alien in thought and reason, when written competently.
Which is assuming emotions of pride, regret, jealousy and the like are specific to humans, which is simply not true within 40k. And you're forgetting it's only the Lords and other very high ranking Necrons that have any form of sentience. Regardless, their metal bodies are still a key element to their backstory. The VAST majority are still mindless automatons at the bidding of their Overlords. The C'tan tricked them into their new bodies, it served as the driving force behind their war with their erstwhile masters. Even in the present, it's what motivates the Silent King; the complete re-unification of his people, and then their transferal back to organic forms. And this sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about. You call it a team-building exercise to deliberately make it look worse to you, obviously you never really wanted to like the new Necrons from the start.
iproxtaco wrote:Which is assuming emotions of pride, regret, jealousy and the like are specific to humans, which is simply not true within 40k. And you're forgetting it's only the Lords and other very high ranking Necrons that have any form of sentience. Regardless, their metal bodies are still a key element to their backstory. The VAST majority are still mindless automatons at the bidding of their Overlords. The C'tan tricked them into their new bodies, it served as the driving force behind their war with their erstwhile masters. Even in the present, it's what motivates the Silent King, the complete re-unification of his people, and then their transferal back to organic forms.
You forgot to mention now the Silent King is all totally sad and guilty about leading his people into slavery.
Within 40k, the Necrons being alien to humans was a fact of their existence. Were they incapable of interacting with them because of that? No, but that aspect is gone now.
Just because you like it doesn't change the fact that the new Necrons are a retcon, a complete rewrite of everything about them.
iproxtaco wrote:And this sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about. You call it a team-building exercise to deliberately make it look worse to you, obviously you never really wanted to like the new Necrons from the start.
I call it a team-building exercise because that's what it was.
The Necrontyr now originally were at war with eachother and killing off eachother, so the Silent King, to unite the Necrontyr race, sent them to war with the Old Ones.
That's what a team-building exercise is.
You seem to have some strange issue with me not liking the new Necrons. You seem to be under the impression that all opinions on the new Necrons that don't boil down to "I like them" should not be voiced. You would be wrong.
Ixion wrote:And just because the new Necrons are a retcon and a complete rewrite doesn't change the fact that some people like them.
While it's cute that you jump into this thread and assume that I am faulting people for liking them, nothing could be further from the truth.
I have repeatedly emphasized that I don't fault people for liking the "new" Necrons, I only take some issue with the fact that some people aren't capable of admitting that this is, in fact, a massive retcon.
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iproxtaco wrote:Well, I wholeheartedly disagree that its a complete retcon. You just refuse to look at what has stayed 100% the same.
Which is?
Sure I guess most Necrons are still mindless automotons, and...
...
That's all I've got.
Oh and I guess they still do fight other factions a lot, but that's true for every faction, and not really worthy of discussion. It's a wargame, no gak they fight a lot.
Ixion wrote:And just because the new Necrons are a retcon and a complete rewrite doesn't change the fact that some people like them.
While it's cute that you jump into this thread and assume that I am faulting people for liking them, nothing could be further from the truth.
I have repeatedly emphasized that I don't fault people for liking the "new" Necrons, I only take some issue with the fact that some people aren't capable of admitting that this is, in fact, a massive retcon.
I'll give you that; I have been harping on about this for a while now. I can't even explain why exactly; I'm still a greenhorn here and already I've got all these opinions on things I've just heard of. If I've come across as hounding, I apologize.
As for retconning, I don't know if the issue is that they won't admit it's a retcon or that they just don't think a retcon is a bad thing-- which seems to be what you're suggesting, but I could be misreading that completely.
Gotta say that from what I have read so far I am dissappointed in the "new Necrons". Which is a shame. I was hoping that rather than change who they are and what they stand for in the universe they would simply be an easier army to build some fluff around. Im not saying all of its bad, there are alot of things I like but the Necrons should remain a constant, unpredictable and incredibly deadly threat to all life. They shouldnt be making petty alliances and trade agreements. And they DEFINATELY shouldnt have used the Nightbringer and the Deciever as shards. For me that doesnt make them a threat anymore. Sure they could be a big threat if they were to become whole again but really, what are the chances of that ever happening. One can only hope that this is further explained once I get my Codex and the next issue of white dwarf. Otherwise I may use said magazine as toilet paper. I shall do to Matt Ward what he has done on to my Necrons. Sh*t on him.
iproxtaco wrote:And this sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about. You call it a team-building exercise to deliberately make it look worse to you, obviously you never really wanted to like the new Necrons from the start.
I call it a team-building exercise because that's what it was.
The Necrontyr now originally were at war with eachother and killing off eachother, so the Silent King, to unite the Necrontyr race, sent them to war with the Old Ones.
That's what a team-building exercise is.
You seem to have some strange issue with me not liking the new Necrons. You seem to be under the impression that all opinions on the new Necrons that don't boil down to "I like them" should not be voiced. You would be wrong.
I have an issue with people using hyperbole and deliberately ignoring parts of the info we've been given, which is exactly what you've been doing. And I like arguing with people, it's a forum, and not many others reliably respond with something that resembles English. Take that as you will, I dug deep.
iproxtaco wrote:I have an issue with people using hyperbole and deliberately ignoring parts of the info we've been given, which is exactly what you've been doing. And I like arguing with people, it's a forum, and not many others reliably respond with something that resembles English. Take that as you will, I dug deep.
What parts of the information have I been ignoring?
If there was some gem I missed in my constant outpour of nerdrage in the Necron rumors (Not so much rumors anymore with the GW site having some information), then by all means, tell me.
iproxtaco wrote:Well, I wholeheartedly disagree that its a complete retcon. You just refuse to look at what has stayed 100% the same.
Which is?
Sure I guess most Necrons are still mindless automotons, and...
...
That's all I've got.
Oh and I guess they still do fight other factions a lot, but that's true for every faction, and not really worthy of discussion. It's a wargame, no gak they fight a lot.
Pretty much everything about them is exactly the same up until the Old Ones were wiped out. Certain things have been fleshed out, elaborated, or added, but the story is the same. What's actually a retcon though? Just the stuff about their war against the C'tan and why they went into stasis.
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Void__Dragon wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:I have an issue with people using hyperbole and deliberately ignoring parts of the info we've been given, which is exactly what you've been doing. And I like arguing with people, it's a forum, and not many others reliably respond with something that resembles English. Take that as you will, I dug deep.
What parts of the information have I been ignoring?
If there was some gem I missed in my constant outpour of nerdrage in the Necron rumors (Not so much rumors anymore with the GW site having some information), then by all means, tell me.
Maybe not some much ignoring as carefully selecting and taking out of context. I've already listed them earlier.
iproxtaco wrote:Pretty much everything about them is exactly the same up until the Old Ones were wiped out. Certain things have been fleshed out, elaborated, or added, but the story is the same. What's actually a retcon though? Just the stuff about their war against the C'tan and why they went into stasis.
Taking the Cosmic Horror out of them is taking out a lot of what made them Necrons.
But their reasoning for warring with the Old Ones is different, and frankly makes me like them a lot less. I won't fault you for liking it, but fact of the matter is that originally, the war with the Old Ones was spurred on by an envy that resulted in a singular hatred that united them, when now the Silent King instead set the Necrontyr against the Old Ones in an effort to eradicate the in-fighting among the Necrontyr. That's a retcon. It's only the same in a basic "Necrontyr go to war with Old Ones" sense, but it takes the malice of the Necrontyr out of it, the alien hatred that united their race against them.
Perhaps you like that better? Fine, I won't fault you for that.
But it was a retcon.
Unless of course, perhaps that is how the Silent King united the Necrontyr to fight the Old Ones, but it still brings the Necrontyr much closer to being humanised than I am frankly comfortable with.
That would be my biggest issue with the changes to the fluff. Ward (Or GW, whatever) have made the Necrons seem altogether more human, less implacable and unreasonable.
I'll actually concede that a good deal of the as you call it 'cosmic horror' has gone from them. The C'tan have more, the Necrons have maybe been humanized a bit more than they needed. I think a greater impact would have been if they had contrasted between before and after they were robotized. Before, there were many faction and characters (obviously not too in-depth), but then after, all of this was eradicated, with only a select few retaining any sort of free will.
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Mr Nobody wrote:It gets better! Necrons are 64 million years old, dinosaurs died 64 million years ago. Necrons killed the dinosaurs.
despite the fluff change, I still like them if they're similar to how they're portrayed in Fall of Damnos.
iproxtaco wrote:I'll actually concede that a good deal of the as you call it 'cosmic horror' has gone from them. The C'tan have more, the Necrons have maybe been humanized a bit more than they needed. I think a greater impact would have been if they had contrasted between before and after they were robotized. Before, there were many faction and characters (obviously not too in-depth), but then after, all of this was eradicated, with only a select few retaining any sort of free will.
Maybe, executed well, that could actually be a good read.
But then, let's be honest, Ward is writing it, and well... *Generic Ward's incompetence rage hate statement*
I really don't think that necrons should be trading or allying. I thought they were mindless soulless race that destroys everything? 
Nor do I really think some of the changes were necessary to do what they wanted to do. The overall theme is gone. 
