So i was just wondering as i am looking for my 2nd Army ?
It seems Very fun but i just wanted to know befor i spent all that money on termies !
Thank you
Tyler

Fun list to play until the Dark Lances come out of the shadows Nothing better then one shotting expensive troops. (I figured you would find that somewhat amusing as a fellow DE player)

As I said though, very enjoyable list to play, just avoid the Str 8 AP 2 guns or the force weapons.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/401458.page

Blackmoor thinks so, having won a major tournament with them.

I have yet to hear about a GK player winning with purifier spam, but draigowing is becoming more common (that was before blackmoor's win even).

Read a few of the battlereps here on dakka involving draigowing and you can see where they struggle and where they excel.

Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions and probably the worst at objectives. You won't beat them at kill points unless you wipe them off the board because they start with less KPs then anyone else, and will kill more than their points worth before dying. But in games with 4+ objectives, they struggle just to tie the game, thanks to how few scoring units they can put on the board.

Every army in the game has weapons that can 1 shot them and you will hear players laugh about the idea of knocking them off the board but the truth is that it is incredibly difficult to pull off in a real game. Thanks to draigo and the mandatory librarian, your paladin units are stupidly survivable, even against heavy weapons. Draigo can take shot after shot thanks to eternal warrior and the storm shield, while the librarian can shroud everyone to make them just as tough with a 3+ cover save.

They are a forgiving army because nothing short of a demolisher cannon out in the open can wipe them out in 1 go and they are capable of beating any unit in the game at close combat. IF you can figure out how to handle objective games (there are plenty of ways to do it), you can have a very competitive army.

Bruteboss wrote:Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions

Blanket statement and in my experiences not true, in fact I find their lack of flexibility makes them easy to beat in Annihilation with mounted shooty armies; take a KP or two and then run away as they try to catch you in assault.

In short, no, they are not competitive.

There are too many armies with high str, low AP weapons that can out range or out maneuver them.

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions

Blanket statement and in my experiences not true, in fact I find their lack of flexibility makes them easy to beat in Annihilation with mounted shooty armies; take a KP or two and then run away as they try to catch you in assault.

Wow, you are so wrong.

Draigowing is the hardest army to beat in an annihilation mission in the game.

#1. You have never even played against a paladin army if you think you can kill a couple of models and then run. A paladin squad can kill anything with shooting within 30".
#2. Draigo armies are backed up by a lot of psyfleman dreds which are some of the best anti-tank in the game.


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Alerian wrote:In short, no, they are not competitive.

There are too many armies with high str, low AP weapons that can out range or out maneuver them.

You are wrong. See above. Draigo eats any strength 8 weapons and he has a 3+ inv save, 4 wounds and eternal warrior...good luck killing him. Then with shrouding you can give paladins a 3+ cover save. Even DE who can carry a bunch of it has trouble killing paladins. Your dreds take down the ravagers, and then Draigo takes the solo dark light weapons.

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

With up to 4 psycannons in a 10 man paladin squad, vehicles at range are not that safe. For objective games I usually combat squad the paladins and give a dreadnought the ability to control objectives. In my last game of a tourny ( 5 objectives ) this is what I did and used my storm raven to contest another objective. My opponent was controlling 1 objective to my 3. So it is very possible to win objective games with a draigowing list.

Draigowing has 2 major advantages in tournaments.

#1 People are inexperienced fighting against a well played Draigowing. Draigowings are not a common build, and many of the Draigowing players out there are bad players or new players. IMO the list attracts 1 of 2 types of players: Bad players who are ignorant or willfully ignorant of the weaknesses of Draigowing, or really good players who embrace the challanges that come with playing a difficult build like Draigowing. Run ins with the bad players will leave players thinking Draigowing is a worthless build. Run ins with the good players rarely happen, and will often only happen for the first time in a tournament. Learning how to play against Draigowing in a tournament going up against a guy that has played 100+ games against tough opponents with draigowing means you're playing your opponent's game. The learning curve is sharp and unforgiving.

#2 They came poorly tooled and with a list woefully unsuited to fight Draigowing. Of course by the same logic a draigowing army can run up against an army that is tooled well to kill paladins, but then they can fall back on advantage #1 as the other player probably has little to no experience fighting Draigowing.

Draigowing is like Nob bikers..they are a noob hammer, nothing more.

Remember when everyone was on the Nob Biker bandwagon? Remember when everyone cried about how OP they were? Then...remember how people figured out how to crush Nob Bikers lists, asfter figuring out that they were a one trick pony?

Nob Bikers have gone from being one of the most feared lists to being relegated to a "for fun" list, because people now understand them and are prepared for them. A single unit of Nob Bikers can still be very useful, but an army of them is just asking for a loss.

It is the same cycle for Draigowing. Sure, it looks scary and against novices you will crush some serious face; however, an experieced player will have the tools to pick it apart.

Draigowing is short range, and a good opponent will leave it with the choice of either hugging cover, to gain a 3+ cover save and stay alive, or leave the safety of cover in order to reach the enemy, and die to fire in the open. A good player also stacks more than one high S, low AP shot into units, so that Draigo cannot take all the hits. As for the Psyflemen Dreads..simply tie them up in assault - the only way the Draigowing player can keep keep those dreads shooting is to keep his Pallies near them for counterassault, thus giving the oppoenent the rest of the entire board to maneuver with impunity. People already tend to use the close range units required to kill Draigowing with ease (Firedragons, MeltaVets, Combi-Melta Sterngaurd, etc.), all they need to do now is learn the proper tactics of using them against Draigowing. The same goes for longe range units. The small army size and short range of pallies gives the edge to any opponent who understands how to properly use "fire and maneuver", and unfortuanately for Draigowing players, truely competitive players do understand the concepts.

Yes, at first Draigowing can be scary, but just like Nob Bikers, once people learn how to beat this one-trick-pony, it loses power fast. This makes it a non-competitive army, because truely competitive players study other codexes, practice against all army types, and come prepared. In short, Draigowing does not have the range, size, spead, or vesatility to recover against a competitive player that is prepared for it.

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

Blackmoor wrote:Wow, you are so wrong.

Draigowing is the hardest army to beat in an annihilation mission in the game.

#1. You have never even played against a paladin army if you think you can kill a couple of models and then run. A paladin squad can kill anything with shooting within 30".
#2. Draigo armies are backed up by a lot of psyfleman dreds which are some of the best anti-tank in the game.

Right because nothing can outrange 30" and/or outshoot 3 Dreadnoughts

Your opinions on Draigo-wing are obviously based on your experiences with them; mine of my experiences playing against them, in which case every time my mech armies have had no problem. As for telling me I haven't played against them just because I disagree with you, with all due respect, that is a pathetic argument.

Also regarding them being the hardest army to beat in Annihilation, how so? Deathwing are much sturdier because of their Storm Shields and aren't half as vulnerable to Dark Eldar as Draigo-wing. Similarly a multi-LR army can be devastating in Annihilation to anything without enough Melta. Simple fact is no one army can be the best at Annihilation as it depends on the match-up they are given.

I appreciate your fondness of Draigo-wing due to your success with them, but getting that attached and then basically telling people that your success means their differing opinion isn't valid doesn't do you justice. Fact is most people seem to think Draigo-wing are dodgy, so I'm inclined to think you are just an awesome player.

Draigowings can be ferocious at high points. A unti of Scoring Paladins, a Libby, and a Dread in a Stormraven, and Draigo. Make Draigo, the Libby and Dread scoring therough Grand Strategy, and then you have enough scoring units.

Do you know just how difficult it is to wipe a 5 man unit of paldins and Draigo is, when the libby joins in. you must wipe out the WHOLE unit to clear the objective. Add in the Psyfleman helping and that is 2 units that need cleared. not to metion the overhead Stormraven.

Nice posts godless and alerian.

I would rather take regular gk termies over pally's.

An extra wound, MC ALL weapons, not just 1 guy, an extra wound all around, and the abilty to swap a Strombolter for FNP for the whole squad all around is FAR better than anything the Termies have. And the Apothecary can still shoot with Holocaust.

Paladins are really good, and Draigowing is definitely a competitive army. Are they the best GK build? IMO, no...but they are definitely a beast of an army to contend with.

I play both Draigowing and Crowe-purifier GK's. Of the 2, purifiers are the more balanced army, but Draigowing is more likely to dominate an opponent.

As a matter of fact, a Draigowing build is an intentionally unbalanced army build, just like Nob bikers and nidzilla were in 4th edition 40k. This type of army overloads the shooting and the assault phases (yes, it's a good shooting army). It's weakness? The Movement phase. That's where they can be exploited. Also, as with any unbalanced armies, Draigowing is more matchup dependent than more balanced armies. Play against the right army and Draigowing will table the the opponent. Play against the wrong one and there's a good chance that Draigowing will get tabled themselves. However, Draigowing will matchup well against the majority of army builds out there as long as you have adequate support for them.

I love any tactics thread in which a guy that wins with a list gets told that the army isn't any good.

For the record, I've lost more games with Draigowing due to my own mistakes than due to the inherent weakness of the build. I also run a "pure" build, with 20 pallies, libby, and draigo.

Oh, and I won my hard boys qualifier, and I've lost maybe 20% of my tournament games with them.

Alerian wrote:In short, no, they are not competitive.

There are too many armies with high str, low AP weapons that can out range or out maneuver them.

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

Draigowing is much more durable and competitive than you think.

I had a battle between my Draigowing and FNP Blood Angels with 19 FNP TH/SS terminators and 55 FNP jump marines. In a direct confrontation, my paladins wiped out all 19 assault terminators....and I only lost 2 paladins in the process. (BTW, battle report here.) More dangerous than high-strength, low-AP weaponry to any terminator army is volume of fire. That is something deathwing cannot handle well, but Draigowing can. And with Draigo and a librarian, Draigowing can also absorb high-strength, low-AP fire just as well.

Well......I came in 4th in the Ard Boyz with a Draigowing-ish list. (Not proper Draigowing, since I had tons of otherstuff, but certainly 10 paladins plus Draigo in it.

And another poster here, Zagman, came in 3rd with a true Draigowing army in the Ard Boyz finals. He probably would've done better had he not lost to Necrons in round 1. Lol.

Having recently nearly tabled a local champion (someone who normally thumps me if I play a traditionally 'competitive msu' army) who runs a nasty Imperial Weakling list full of template low-APID, flying twin-linked low AP ID, veteran weakling meltagun ID and more AV12+ than is reasonable with my humble 16 model 2000 point paladin list (his words: 'I haven't been beaten that badly in years'), I'd say paladins are reasonably competitive.

Two reasons:

1) a decently played paladin list is actually really hard to kill

2) people who rely on the standard 5th ed. dogma will probably lose the first few times they run into a decently played paladin list because what you think you know almost always doesn't actually work (look at all the people who claim TH/SS terminators are 'the answer' to paladins in close combat, or the people who smirk knowingly at their massed template ID vehicles pre-game. Three turns in they're desperately trying to fathom why it is they're losing...).

Obviously a paladin list can be beaten. No sensible person would argue with that. There are a few lists that a paladin force would find extraordinarily difficult to beat. A paladin foce must be played by someone who understands how the army works and who can prioritise his targets properly. It's unforgiving. If you make a mistake, you'reprobably in trouble. Two mistakes and you are. Three mistakes and you'll probably get tabled. That's mistakes anywhere from deployment/reserving choices through GS choice and onwards. But an unforgiving army is not weak. To think it is invites hubris.

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

Let me ask a question. Draigo (and Crowe ith Purifiers), sday that Pladins/Purifiers are troopps. Does this mean that they may not be taken as Elites then? If so, run a SR/Psyfleman/Paldin list with a Shrouding Libby.

winterman wrote:

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

I'd disagree that a pure palidin list is crap.

But, hey, i play the list and win with it. what do I know?

If Draigo is taken, Paladins are troop choices (and may not be taken as elites).

If Crowe is taken, Purifiers are troop choices (and may not be taken as elites).

If Coteaz is taken, Weaklings are troop choices (and may not be taken as elites).

Personally I'm of the opinion that at 2000 pts Draigo, Librarian, 2x5 paladins, 2 Venerable Dreanoughts, 2 Sormravens is the best paladin build but that's probaly because it suits my style and I'm familiar with it.

Polonius wrote:

winterman wrote:

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

I'd disagree that a pure palidin list is crap.

But, hey, i play the list and win with it. what do I know?

I concur. However, I do prefer add-in like LRs and SRs and Dreads, to give myself a few more options.

Draigo-wings can be very competitive if played well, if you can account for the pitfalls of having a low model count. They have a lot of leverage, able to displace much larger armies due to their concentrated strength.

Yes, draigo-wings can be broken with good saturation. For every model you lose, in say a 20 model Draigo wing, you're losing 5% of your total firepower.

Target priority becomes your most important consideration when running a DW, and for that, i like to keep a vindicare in mine, both to heatsink and remove ID guns/pop heavy armor.

Despite the low model count it's still going to run you $300+ to build one at 2000 points.

Polonius wrote:

winterman wrote:

Now, a single unit of Pallies, with Draigo, in a more balanced GK list is a powerful tool. You have access to cheaper bodies for counter-assault to keep your Psyflemen out of CC, more shots and manueverability from GKs in Rhinos/Razors, and still have the uber Draigo unit. This type of balanced army is far more competitive, because it has more guns, more speed, more bodies, and most important - it has more options.

I think you have a different definition of Draigowing then Blackmoor, which might be why you aren't seeing eye to eye. A list that is draigo and palladins and nothing else is crap, but that's not the 'Draigowing' people (eg blackmoor and others) are using.

I'd disagree that a pure palidin list is crap.

But, hey, i play the list and win with it. what do I know?

Fair enough. Armchair quarterbacking in this case, so I concede the point to that plays the list I should say the list would be crap in my hands against the armies I see locally and the missions we play.

jy2 wrote:And another poster here, Zagman, came in 3rd with a true Draigowing army in the Ard Boyz finals. He probably would've done better had he not lost to Necrons in round 1. Lol.

This is just so wrong on so many levels for a 'pro draigo wing' post, it's not even funny.

Deadshot wrote:Make Draigo, the Libby and Dread scoring therough Grand Strategy, and then you have enough scoring units.

IC's cannot be targeted by Grand Strategy.

Its not as "wrong" as you might imagine. One of the toughest armies to face against for draigowing is Tau and its often the under performers like that which really give them trouble.

In terms of facing (old) necrons, I've got 1 word for you: monoliths. A smart necron player that parks his army behind the monoliths is going to make paladins (and GK in general) cry. We really lack the strength 9-10 weapons it takes to shoot those things down and our only option is daemonhammers, which the necron player is probably fully aware of. Being shot at by an army you can't damage back until you reach close combat is one of the reasons necrons give this list headaches.

But that will all be a thing of the past in a week or 2

Edit: but my real point in all of this is that paladins do very well against the newest, top tier armies. GK just has a strange quirk where its toughest fights are against the old books like that.

Actually, I would think DE and 30 hamminators + libby would be a huge pain for draigo wing to deal with.

And that's just for starters.

Bruteboss wrote:But that will all be a thing of the past in a week or 2

Not really, in fact if the 'rumours' (i.e. they are pretty much fact at this point) are anything to go by, Necrons will be an even bigger headache for Grey Knights, what with the Quantum Shielding all over the place.

Subject: Is Draigowing Competitive

So it seems the concensus is: It depends but for the most part, yes it is competitive. Ive used a draigowing personally and did kinda bad in my 1st ever tourny and even better in my 2nd tourny. I took the things I learned in the 1st tourny and made vast improvements. My 3rd tourny I used a crowe/purifier list and did well also, so I think im semi qualified to say my 2 cents.

imweasel wrote:Actually, I would think DE and 30 hamminators + libby would be a huge pain for draigo wing to deal with.

And that's just for starters.

Actually Space Fairies are eminently beatable (though if well played they can win). 30 TH/SS plus a Librarian will likely be eaten alive by a Paladin/Stormraven list.

jv2 has it right when he says the armies that give paladins (and GK generally) the biggest problems are often the unfashionable ones. That's why a lot of people who whine that GK are broken are playing lists that follow typical 5th ed dogma and/or are playing 'top tier' armies that have previously done well.

When I started playing paladins, people assured me that I didn't have enough troops and that Draigo was overpriced. When I added stormravens to replace landraiders, I was assured that they wouldn't last beyond turn one against any decent competitive list. Everyone said I had too few models, full stop. But none of these dogma-based criticisms have actually stood up. I win more than twice as many games with my paladin lists than I did with my MSU marines (which list would have been praised by adherents of 5th ed dogma). Now that's partly because most good players don't actually understand how paladin forces really work and so don't counter them effectively for a game or two. But even when they do adapt their tactics, the paladin list remains effective (ie it's not just opponents underestimating the list that makes it successful, though that does play a part in its aggregate of success).

I would qualify that night shields make all the difference for DE versus GK, but especially Draigowing.

Generally speaking, DE players find nightshields too expensive, but I know a guy at the club that uses them, and they're murder on GK, particular if you don't have a ton of Psyflemen (I usually run just one, gauche, I know).

What it boils down to is, 24" + 6" movement is sufficient for decent board control, 18" is not. Seems like a small thing, but it gives the DE player an extra 12" of "corners" to run to.

Like I said, this is bad for all GK (except heavy psyflemen) but it's just murder on a pure Paladin list, since 24" + 6" is literally all they got.

imweasel wrote:Actually, I would think DE and 30 hamminators + libby would be a huge pain for draigo wing to deal with.

And that's just for starters.

As the last poster mentioned, if DE bothered with taking night shields, and was playing a "scoot and shoot" list (ie: stay in your venom/raider and blaster from as far away as possible), then maybe I will give you that they can win. The average DE list, and more importantly the kind that players are bringing to tournaments, are a completely fair fight for the GK, because you have too many short range/melee units in that kind of army to be able to afford standing back all day.

As to th/ss terminators, they are a "counter" of sorts for marines, but only in the sense that nothing else in the army will survive a fight with paladins. The difference being that th/ss terminators "can" survive, not necessarily win. If you look at JV2's battlerep, as we've mentioned before, 2 squads of paladins were able to wipe out 19 FNP th/ss terminators and only lost 2 men in exchange. That was against terminators with FNP, meaning that shooting was completely useless and the the only way to kill them was close combat, which is their strength.

My regular opponent played deathwing for years before switching to BA, with a healthy does of terminators thrown in as well. He has learned his lesson about facing paladins and no longer expects his terminators to win in a fight against my paladins. The best you can really expect to pull off is finishing off a weakened squad (in which case you were already winning), or holding off a full power unit for a turn or 2 before they wipe you out.

Hmmmmm, I would like to point out that a kitted out archon with husk blade can put some serious hurt on paladins. Initiative 7, power weapon, instant death, and 2+ invo himself. I think 6 attacks on the charge. Not often taken, but he can have a 2+ to wound, as well. He'll lose to Draigo, eventually, but he can murder the whole squad around you. And you're not fearless, you will run, and they will catch you.

And that's one reason why paladin squads should always have a stave.

It's actually quite unlikely that Space fairies will win assault, even with a huskblade (though it can happen). But whilst paladins are not Fearless, they have ATSKNF, so they can't be swept.

As well as being given a Grand Stratagy from Draigo, most likely rerolls of 1 to wound, or even scouts.

Artemo wrote: Actually Space Fairies are eminently beatable (though if well played they can win). 30 TH/SS plus a Librarian will likely be eaten alive by a Paladin/Stormraven list.

Anything that will tear apart a 30 hamminator list will do just fine vs draigowing.

And you are going to take a total of what winds up to be of 11 1 wound models and draigo, plus the ravens vs 30 termies? And you would call the space fairies are going to be eaten alive?

I don't even think your more expensive list is barely even odds vs my much larger list.


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Bruteboss wrote:As the last poster mentioned, if DE bothered with taking night shields, and was playing a "scoot and shoot" list (ie: stay in your venom/raider and blaster from as far away as possible), then maybe I will give you that they can win. The average DE list, and more importantly the kind that players are bringing to tournaments, are a completely fair fight for the GK, because you have too many short range/melee units in that kind of army to be able to afford standing back all day.

As to th/ss terminators, they are a "counter" of sorts for marines, but only in the sense that nothing else in the army will survive a fight with paladins. The difference being that th/ss terminators "can" survive, not necessarily win. If you look at JV2's battlerep, as we've mentioned before, 2 squads of paladins were able to wipe out 19 FNP th/ss terminators and only lost 2 men in exchange. That was against terminators with FNP, meaning that shooting was completely useless and the the only way to kill them was close combat, which is their strength.

My regular opponent played deathwing for years before switching to BA, with a healthy does of terminators thrown in as well. He has learned his lesson about facing paladins and no longer expects his terminators to win in a fight against my paladins. The best you can really expect to pull off is finishing off a weakened squad (in which case you were already winning), or holding off a full power unit for a turn or 2 before they wipe you out.

Well golly gee, you seem to be surprised that a much more expensive unit(s) is able to beat cheaper unit(s). Gosh!!! Surprise!!!

Try it on an even point total and see how that works out for ya.

imweasel wrote:

Artemo wrote: Actually Space Fairies are eminently beatable (though if well played they can win). 30 TH/SS plus a Librarian will likely be eaten alive by a Paladin/Stormraven list.

Anything that will tear apart a 30 hamminator list will do just fine vs draigowing.

And you are going to take a total of what winds up to be of 11 1 wound models and draigo, plus the ravens vs 30 termies? And you would call the space fairies are going to be eaten alive?

I don't know what you are talking about. He said the 30 Hammernators, and those 3 units alone add up to 1200pts, will be munched by Draigo( 2+/3++, 4 wounds, EW), 9 paladins (2 wound Termies with WS 5, and Stormbolters, and strike first with no saves), and Str 5 Strombolters, a Libby, able to cast 3 powers, including 2 that give +1 Str each, plus a Stromraven, all for 1200pts. the same as you, and much more deadly.

Artemo wrote:And that's one reason why paladin squads should always have a stave.

It's actually quite unlikely that Space fairies will win assault, even with a huskblade (though it can happen). But whilst paladins are not Fearless, they have ATSKNF, so they can't be swept.

My experience with this (and I have a fair bit) is that it depends upon how much Draigo gets to engage, and this can be controlled fairly well by the charging player (most likely DE). For instance, it is possible for the archon to contact Draigo and another model, locking Draigo in place, keeping him out of contact with the Archons squad (often Incubi). Draigo is left swinging on the Archons 2+ save, so assuming 3 hits and wounds, let's pretend nothing happens there.

The archon, on the other hand, has 6 attacks, hits 4 times, and with poison, yeah, wounds 4 times. He swings for the squad mind you. sure, warding staff makes one go away. You probably have some swords in there, but possibly not 3, let's say 2 get through. That's 2 dead paladins, 4 wounds. Before even the halberds swing, mind you.

It depends upon how many incubi he brings, but he can win at far less points than you. And he shouldn't pursue, he let's you run, then escorts you off the board.


This is not to say this auto-beats a Draigo deathstar, nothing of the sort. Just saying it has more than decent chance to, for far less cost than your deathstar. But they're DE, that's frankly how it SHOULD work. Your job is to shoot him before he gets there.

Why would a poisoned attack ignore armour saves?

If he has a huskblade then he surely wounds on 5+ but ignores armour saves. But huskblades aren't poisoned, are they?

So you can have six venom attacks of which 4 hit on average and probably all wound but the squad gets 2+ saves so could well escape unscathed. Or you can have the same number of attacks hitting but wounding on 5+, so 1 or 2 wounds, one of which the stave will absorb on 2+.

When we say 'draigowing', do we mean say, at 2k points, nothing but Draigo, Libby and Paladins or are we talking about an army that contains Draigo, Libby and some Paladins but necessarily backed up by other units (Psyfleman Dreads and/or Interceptors) like Blackmoor's list?

Running a Paladin list has been at the back of my mind for a few weeks now but I'm not sure about it because I can't see an all Paladin footslogging army taking on all comers. I think it does need support in which case, should we really be talking about a Paladin hybrid army because that seems to be more competitive than an all Paladin build?

Personally I mean a list where the infantry are exclusively paladins. But they ride in 'ravens and are backed by venerable dreadnoughts.

I think a good working definition is where the only troops fielded are paladins.

Artemo wrote:Why would a poisoned attack ignore armour saves?

If he has a huskblade then he surely wounds on 5+ but ignores armour saves. But huskblades aren't poisoned, are they?

So you can have six venom attacks of which 4 hit on average and probably all wound but the squad gets 2+ saves so could well escape unscathed. Or you can have the same number of attacks hitting but wounding on 5+, so 1 or 2 wounds, one of which the stave will absorb on 2+.

With the court of the Archon you can give him a Lhaimeas or whatever it is, which gives him 2+ poisoned, just cuz. That can be combined with the husk blade.

Expensive. But I think the Court looks pretty decent, to me, most people just don't have the options.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, also there's this gem that will double the archons str every time he kills an IC or MC. Not too likely to occure against your average Draigo wing, though.

The Lhameans only upgrade poisoned weapons to poisoned 2+. Not all weapons to poisoned 2+.

Oh, OK, well, that wouldn't work, then. There's still the Gem.

You mean the Soul-trap. In a typical paladin list that means the Archon must kill either Draigo or a librarian (who should always have a warding stave). So you're looking at either 3++ T5, 4 wound eternal warrior (needing 6s to wound and 4 such wounds to kill, 2/3 of which are negated, ie 72 hits or 96 hits) or 2++ T4 (needing 5s to wound and kill, 5/6 of which are negated, ie 18 hits or 24 attacks).

The difference being that th/ss terminators "can" survive, not necessarily win. If you look at JV2's battlerep, as we've mentioned before, 2 squads of paladins were able to wipe out 19 FNP th/ss terminators and only lost 2 men in exchange.

I just want to interject on this point, since I have seen this sort of fight play out more than once, and participated a couple times (On both sides.) in house games:

It turns into a very binary "Can the TH/SS user roll a 3++ well?" situation. I have seen more than one instance of the stormshields making enough of their saves to wipe the paladins in return or hit them hard enough that next phase they can be finished off.

I've watched Calgar and 5 TH/SS come out of a raider and crush draigo and a paladin squad with the loss of a single terminator.

I've watched Logan and a terminator squad do similar. I've seen bone stock TH/SS leave draigo standing alone to be shot by the time the last one went down. Heck, I have had test games where my TDA libby (When he isn't busy rolling perils) smack 3 paladins off the board with vortex before combat began!...Aaaaaand I have also seen the reverse cases where like Jy2, the paladins do enough damage/wipeout that the ensuing phases don't matter, the paladins have won already. "Do you feel lucky?" applies here, big time.

As an aside though, what's up with that battlerep? No note is made of what units failed their red thirst check, but then there is reference to BA termies taking no retreat wounds, which should not happen except in the case of a red thirst unit. Also it should be noted that even in this lopsided 5 terminators + SP removed vs. two paladins, he still only lost combat by two, and with a much cheaper unit.

I've noticed bad luck being used as a 'defining' argument in a post above; as good a sign as ever to leave the thread.

Luck does play a part in it though, both good and bad. Instead of dismissing luck, it should be gratefully received (in the case of good) and learned from and planned for (in the case of bad).

I've assaulted a 5 man TH/SS termie squad with a 10 man purifier squad, all armed with halberds and 1 hammer and lost big time due to rolling badly despite 30 power weapon attacks. And I've won an assault after being assaulted and having far less attacks due to rolling really well. It's just part of the game.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Luck does play a part in it though, both good and bad. Instead of dismissing luck, it should be gratefully received (in the case of good) and learned from and planned for (in the case of bad).

I've assaulted a 5 man TH/SS termie squad with a 10 man purifier squad, all armed with halberds and 1 hammer and lost big time due to rolling badly despite 30 power weapon attacks. And I've won an assault after being assaulted and having far less attacks due to rolling really well. It's just part of the game.

You don't seem to understand, what you are talking about has nothing to do with what was stated earlier. Someone pointed out that because 5 Paladins and Draigo beat 19 FNP TH/SS Termies (because the FNP guys fluffe their attacks) that the Paladins are always better than the FNP Termies. This is a bollocks argument.

Deadshot wrote:I don't know what you are talking about. He said the 30 Hammernators, and those 3 units alone add up to 1200pts, will be munched by Draigo( 2+/3++, 4 wounds, EW), 9 paladins (2 wound Termies with WS 5, and Stormbolters, and strike first with no saves), and Str 5 Strombolters, a Libby, able to cast 3 powers, including 2 that give +1 Str each, plus a Stromraven, all for 1200pts. the same as you, and much more deadly.

You do know the pallies are basically 1 wound models vs hamminators, right? With a 5+ invul save, that with the space marines are going to reroll successfull ones, right?

And I never knew that pallies struck with no saves? Perhaps I am wrong on this, but I didn't realize they ignore ALL saves.

The reason I picked the number of models is as follows:

10 pallies and 1 librarian. All essentially 1 wound models since no EW from the hamminators.

Draigo has 4 wounds.

Plus 2 ravens. That's probably around 1300pts or so, if you don't trick out the pallies to much. It's over 600 alone for the transports and draigo.

You do know the pallies are basically 1 wound models vs hamminators, right? With a 5+ invul save, that with the space marines are going to reroll successfull ones, right?

Worse. Morale games play a part too.

Direct all attacks to the paladins. Each one you take off the board with a powerfist or TH counts as TWO wounds for combat resolution. Two wounds that will be converted directly into No retreat! for draigo should you wipe his squad and revert him back to fearless status. If you do not, you start quickly ratcheting up the difficulty for his LD test with every paladin off the board versus every TH/SS, and though you can't sweep him with TH/SS and vice versa, you CAN escort him off the board.

Paladins can obviously win against TH/SS, for that matter so can purifiers or even charging strike squad when the dice gods smile. But it becomes an awful lot like a fair fight to try in most cases.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Luck does play a part in it though, both good and bad. Instead of dismissing luck, it should be gratefully received (in the case of good) and learned from and planned for (in the case of bad).

I've assaulted a 5 man TH/SS termie squad with a 10 man purifier squad, all armed with halberds and 1 hammer and lost big time due to rolling badly despite 30 power weapon attacks. And I've won an assault after being assaulted and having far less attacks due to rolling really well. It's just part of the game.

You don't seem to understand, what you are talking about has nothing to do with what was stated earlier. Someone pointed out that because 5 Paladins and Draigo beat 19 FNP TH/SS Termies (because the FNP guys fluffe their attacks) that the Paladins are always better than the FNP Termies. This is a bollocks argument.

That's not what was said at all - it was Draigo, a Libby and two squads of Paladins and the TH/SS Termies had 27 attacks but only killed 2 Paladins. That is bad luck. But nobody argued that Paladins are always better - it was just a person trying to reconcile the differences between the survivability of terminators at range and in CC. He said that the TH/SS are better equipped to survive.

I was just commenting on what you said about time to leave the thread because 'luck' had been used in an argument. I feel that luck does play a part in all games, that's all.

I can't see them doing well against a well played, mobile force with fire power such as the Dark Eldar, Tau, and a few others. If Storm Ravens have been taken, they will be slain pretty quickly since a TAC list will include a lot of anti-tank that won't have much else to shoot at...Then you have the dark lances going to work on the Pallies.

When we say Draigowing we do not mean an army built solely out of Paladins.

Certainly the army has Draigo and it is centered around Paladins, but they are not the only units.

Just like Deathwing armies are not true Terminator only lists, but include everything from dreadnaughts to Ravenwing bikes and speeders.

Blackmoor wrote:When we say Draigowing we do not mean an army built solely out of Paladins.

Certainly the army has Draigo and it is centered around Paladins, but they are not the only units.

Just like Deathwing armies are not true Terminator only lists, but include everything from dreadnaughts to Ravenwing bikes and speeders.

I was just asking for the sake of clarification and to see what other people would expect to face if they knew they were going to be playing Draigowing. But sometimes, on here, you do see people arguing that something isn't 'pure' deathwing if it contains Ravenwing elements etc. Personally, I have Landspeeders in my DW force but I just call it Deathwing, not Deathwing/Ravenwing.

Artemo wrote:

imweasel wrote:Actually, I would think DE and 30 hamminators + libby would be a huge pain for draigo wing to deal with.

And that's just for starters.

Actually Space Fairies are eminently beatable (though if well played they can win). 30 TH/SS plus a Librarian will likely be eaten alive by a Paladin/Stormraven list.

Really? 30 TH/SS will be hard to remove from play no matter what. Okay, the TH/SS will strike last but every wound saved by a SS and every would inflicted by a TH will hurt the Paladins badly. Did I muss something here? Don't assume that the SM player is an idiot.

With 30 TH/SS I'd move up to hold the center in mission based games but stay back in a KP mission. With FnP it will even be harder to remove some of them via shooting. Now some Pallies make it to the front ranks of the SM army. Good luck charging them. I'm too lazy to do the math but I'd be rather confident that the Termies come on top.

I do try not to assume my opponents are idiots. I'm slightly exaggerating as a response to the rather knee-jerk 'Paladins are useless against list X, army Y or weapon-spam Z' posts that seem to either assume the paladin player is an idiot or are borne from mantra-like reciting of internet dogma. If you want a balanced view (if of course rather simplistic as terrain and mission type and deployment all can make assumptions dubious)

Generally speaking, I'm probably going to have given my paladins Counter-attack if facing a TH/SS list. I'm also going to be casting sanctuary (and mindstrikes will have removed any supporting librarian from the TH/SS list well before assault is reached. Given that I'd be using stormravens, I'd also be expecting to get first assault (which will likely reduce a TH/SS squad to 1 or two models), whilst taking 1 or no casualties in return.

The danger comes from a simultaneous assault by two squads (perhaps with a supporting character). The canny TH/SS player will be positioning to sacrifice two squads to draw each paladin squad in and then charge each squad with 2 TH/SS squads (giving a pretty even combat). Sensible play by the TH/SS player should pretty much nullify the disrupting effect of Sanctuary (though a model might be lost from one of the squads).

So really a lot will depend on how the supporting units perform. Because in fact the troops on both sides are quite well matched.

Artemo wrote:and mindstrikes will have removed any supporting librarian from the TH/SS list well before assault is reached

Assumptions such as this one have no place in a valid argument, especially given the other factors to this. There is scatter to consider, as well as the Librarian's invulnerable save (even with a forced re-roll a SS is a pretty sound defense).

The only way for a Libby to get an invulnerable, is TDA, in which case it is a 5++( which musdt be rerolled), or a SS for even more points. Basically you have a 1/9 chance and a 4/9 chance to avoid the wound repectively, and the points don't always allow for this.

4 mindstrikes fired as a single defensive volley will force 2 perils saves even allowing for higher than average scatter. Monst armies only take 1 wound librarian, and he is often only in power armour. In my experience, fielding 2 ravens means even if a Librarian hides in a Rhino, his chance of surviving to turn 3 is very small. In the specific case of a TH/SS list, the librarian is likely to have Force Barrier which gives him a better chance of surviving a volley from one raven but won't help him much against a joint volley (plus plasma cannon attacks against any accompanying unit of course).

Libbies have 2 wounds. Except the Lord of Death, Mephiston, who has an obscene 5.

I actually meant to write one 2 wound librarian, sorry. Regardless. 8 mindstrikes will total most lists psychic threat, and a TH/SS list's psyker options don't allow sufficient safeguard.

No it certainly doesn't. GK basically shut down any army with psykers. The only army to be an exception is GK themselvesa, then it is a fair fight.

Good conversation.

When running stormravens, is it better to use the tl-plasma cannons or the tl-assault cannons?

The only way for a Libby to get an invulnerable, is TDA, in which case it is a 5++( which musdt be rerolled), or a SS for even more points. Basically you have a 1/9 chance and a 4/9 chance to avoid the wound repectively, and the points don't always allow for this.

Or you could sit him inside that land raider the TH/SS decided to bring along and spew null zone till the end of time. Minimizes the effect of mindstrikes quite nicely, I find. Won't help you an iota if you can't roll LD10, though.

When running stormravens, is it better to use the tl-plasma cannons or the tl-assault cannons?

I use the assault cannons myself. Better against light vehicles than the plasma cannon, wounds MEQ on a 2+ like the plasma cannons, and with the abundance of good ++ saves or cover, I find the AP rarely makes an appearance at ranges far enough away where I feel confident I wont scatter into my own men.

I personally went with modelling the LC, but if I need to, such as when facing Bolbish Guard, Nid hordes or Green Tides, I simply don't note down on my list that I have given it TL LC, so it can have an Assault Cannon.

I think the Las is better forNidzilla and Mech, and is a nice complement to the compulsary MM. Where else will you find a 24" move with a TL MM, which only recieves 1D6 from Melta itself, and if it dies, drops a Dreadnought and up to 12 Infantry or 6 JI or Trmies into your opponent?

In a recent 1500 tournament, I faced a DW army with a small Draigo-wing army (mainly because all my other models had been packed before deployment). My opponent had two bike squads, and the rest was Termies w/Cyclones (mix of TH/SS and LCs) and the command squad in TDA w/ apothecary. I had Draigo, a Librarian, ten paladins w/apothecary, banner, psybolts, and two psycannons (All I had at the time), a Vindicare, and seven strikes with a psycannon to round out the points.

Short version, one bike squad got too close, destroyed in CC, second one only had melta biker left, who only put one wound on Draigo the entire game, and the terminators spent the entire game running away, while taking potshots at the strike squad. By the end of the game, he had killed the strike squad, the vendicare, and put three wounds on draigo, and three on the squad( two coming from whiffing agains a Krak) , in return for losing 1 bike squad, all but 1 bike from the other, two terminator squads, and all but the command squad missing at least 2-3 terminators.

Shrivan, nicely done. Draigowing seems to be scary even for a (fearless) DW army.

Bruteboss wrote:Its not as "wrong" as you might imagine. One of the toughest armies to face against for draigowing is Tau and its often the under performers like that which really give them trouble.

In terms of facing (old) necrons, I've got 1 word for you: monoliths. A smart necron player that parks his army behind the monoliths is going to make paladins (and GK in general) cry. We really lack the strength 9-10 weapons it takes to shoot those things down and our only option is daemonhammers, which the necron player is probably fully aware of. Being shot at by an army you can't damage back until you reach close combat is one of the reasons necrons give this list headaches.

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

Draigowing is a joke, other than the unit draigo is in (he is fearless after all), you can tank shock paladins and make them run off the board since they aren't fearless, combine that with all the instant death inflicting weapons they are vulnerable to, it gets silly.

IdentifyZero wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Its not as "wrong" as you might imagine. One of the toughest armies to face against for draigowing is Tau and its often the under performers like that which really give them trouble.

In terms of facing (old) necrons, I've got 1 word for you: monoliths. A smart necron player that parks his army behind the monoliths is going to make paladins (and GK in general) cry. We really lack the strength 9-10 weapons it takes to shoot those things down and our only option is daemonhammers, which the necron player is probably fully aware of. Being shot at by an army you can't damage back until you reach close combat is one of the reasons necrons give this list headaches.

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

I have two words for you: Living Metal.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ivangterrace wrote:Draigowing is a joke, other than the unit draigo is in (he is fearless after all), you can tank shock paladins and make them run off the board since they aren't fearless, combine that with all the instant death inflicting weapons they are vulnerable to, it gets silly.

Yeah, because tank shocking a unit with Ld 10 is a reliable way to kill them...

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

I have two words for you: Living Metal.

And as of today, as far as Living Metal goes, I have two words: Quite Useless

Shivan Reaper wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

IdentifyZero wrote:

I have two words for you: Psycannon's Rend.

I have two words for you: Living Metal.

And as of today, as far as Living Metal goes, I have two words: Quite Useless

We weren't talking about the new 'Dex though, were we?

We are now. It sucks. its basically like an uped version of Extra Armour.

On a 2+ you ignore the Shaken result you just suffered, and ignore the stunned on a 4+.

My friend actually wants to go back to the old Dex with Invulnerable ignoring Warscythes and C'tan, and tougher Warriors.

And better looking Flayed Ones.

No, don't go back to the old 'dex. C'tans did not do a lot in the old codex and I don't remember that a warscythe ever did much damage. Warriors in the new 'dex are a bargain as they are cheaper now and can eventually come back.

He is annoyed that Warscythes don't ignore invulnerables. Yesterday on a thread called Beat this Unit, someone put down a Archon with a shadowfield 2++ save. I put down a Necron Lord with Warscythe and Res orb. Ignores that 2++.

Now it is a +2 Str, power weapon.

Deadshot wrote:He is annoyed that Warscythes don't ignore invulnerables. Yesterday on a thread called Beat this Unit, someone put down a Archon with a shadowfield 2++ save. I put down a Necron Lord with Warscythe and Res orb. Ignores that 2++.

Now it is a +2 Str, power weapon.

Its good as it is now. There are not many weapons out there ignoring inv saves. I remember that CSM had a dread axe to be carried by a DP, this was a bit too bold.

Old Warscthes, Old C'tan, Old Psycannons, Old DP.

They've truly made it an invulnerable save. Only a select few things ignore them, eg Warp Rift, Vortex Weapons, JOTWW.

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

ThaPlayah wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

This is all well and good, but the list you are discribing doesn't actaully contain any paladins. GK termies are, in my opinion, not that great, and are outpreformed by strike squads in most ways. So while you've shown that dark angels can cope with GK just fine, you don't know how it does against actual draigowing.

Not to mention that, honestly, there's not a lot of armies that do well against TH/SS terminators

LR Executioner IG. Beats any Termy heavy list. What about Plasma Rifle Tau?

Deadshot wrote:LR Executioner IG. Beats any Termy heavy list. What about Plasma Rifle Tau?

Executioner cannot id paladins, so are largely ineffective, same for plasma rifle tau.

Deadshot wrote:LR Executioner IG. Beats any Termy heavy list. What about Plasma Rifle Tau?

Imperial Guard are the exception, because their book has a hard counter to everything.

Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Deadshot wrote:Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Yes, but TH/SS termies only have one wound, so str 7 and str 8 feels the same to them. With paladins, all the kills you just made are sliced in half, and probably you get less casualties because of wound allocation. I am far more afriad of demo russes and basalisks then executioners. Besides, no gaurd players really seem to like russes anymore, it's all bassy variants, manticores and hydras. Of those, i'd only worry about bassys and medusas.

Its the Battle Tank that worries Draigowing the most. a large enough plate to cover the unit if it isn't spread out enough( like when their transport explodes) and ignore the expensive Apothecaries FNP. Sure they get a save, but every failed save is a dead Pally, and that is just the main cannon. They have LC on the front, with only a 5++ to protect them. Then the sponsons. And the rest of the amry.

loota boy wrote:

ThaPlayah wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

This is all well and good, but the list you are discribing doesn't actaully contain any paladins. GK termies are, in my opinion, not that great, and are outpreformed by strike squads in most ways. So while you've shown that dark angels can cope with GK just fine, you don't know how it does against actual draigowing.

What are Paladins, slightly harder Terminators in my opinion.

Let's not kid ourselves on here, yes they are decent but they are too expensive not unless they are equipped with NFS then my Terminators will chew through them as will the other 25 Thundernators. I'm not saying I'm an amazing player but there wasn't one Draigowing player on the top tables when I was at Throne of Skulls. Like I said in my earlier post the best Grey Knight player lost to me in the third game after I almost tabled him.

Bearing in mind that there was 1 close combat during the entire game, I blew him to pieces before his Purifiers got close to me.

ThaPlayah wrote:

loota boy wrote:

ThaPlayah wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Your best bet for a terminator army is deathwing with hammers and shields, with cyclones. You get the 3 + invulnerable, fearless, and 2x 48" strength 8 shots per squad. This makes the army more durable, as well as harder to out maneuver.

A Draigowing army will torrent of fire off the board a Deathwing army, and then beat them in assault with all of their power weapon attacks.

I recently took part in the Throne Of Skulls GT in Nottingham a month ago with an all Thundernator Deathwing army and managed to win Best Dark Angel and come 5th overall. The 3rd game I played was against a Grey Knight army which had a low model count and although it wasn't Draigowing it looked very much like one and he conceded turn 4 because he couldn't win. Here's a good example of how well the game went.

He killed a grant total of 3 models in my army over the space of 3 turns and that was to Storm Bolter fire from basic PA Grey Knight squads. He fired 2 Storm Ravens, 2 Rifleman Dreads, and 2 GKT Squads into Belials unit and killed none. The same turn he charged both units of Terminators in and bounced. My Librarian and 2 Terminators killed 1 unit of GKT with Belial and the rest consolidating his 2nd unit of GKT off the board.

He conceded at the end of that assault and also the same guy won Best Grey Knight player.

I've yet to play against a Draigowing army using my Deathwing but I imagine it wouldn't be much different.

Fair enough you may strike before me in melee but my Inv save is better and I have more chance of killing you and countering your Paladins.

This is all well and good, but the list you are discribing doesn't actaully contain any paladins. GK termies are, in my opinion, not that great, and are outpreformed by strike squads in most ways. So while you've shown that dark angels can cope with GK just fine, you don't know how it does against actual draigowing.

What are Paladins, slightly harder Terminators in my opinion.

Let's not kid ourselves on here, yes they are decent but they are too expensive not unless they are equipped with NFS then my Terminators will chew through them as will the other 25 Thundernators. I'm not saying I'm an amazing player but there wasn't one Draigowing player on the top tables when I was at Throne of Skulls. Like I said in my earlier post the best Grey Knight player lost to me in the third game after I almost tabled him.

Bearing in mind that there was 1 close combat during the entire game, I blew him to pieces before his Purifiers got close to me.

The only card to play against TH/SS Deathwing with a pally army is to out-shooot them, or outmaneuver them with a landraider . TH makes short work of paladins, NFSword or no NFSword. The only kind of hope a draigowing has against that much TH SS Termies in assault are warding staves.

Sanctuary Libbies are also hard counters to them, and if you are feeling lucky, Psychotroke grenades.

Deadshot wrote:Its the Battle Tank that worries Draigowing the most. a large enough plate to cover the unit if it isn't spread out enough( like when their transport explodes) and ignore the expensive Apothecaries FNP. Sure they get a save, but every failed save is a dead Pally, and that is just the main cannon. They have LC on the front, with only a 5++ to protect them. Then the sponsons. And the rest of the amry.

What about the Ork Shokk Attack Gun?

Not so much. It can be absolutley devastating, or it might scatter completey away, or it might send that 1 Mek into combat with Draigo and Co., or kill him instantly. Not that scary but it is still a threat.

There's a big difference between gk termies and palys. Palys are way more killy with brotherhood banners and extra psycannons, and infinantly more survivable with extra wounds, wound allocation and FnP. Hammernators arn't as scary as they are made out to be against palys. Palys get to strike first, so have a decent chance of dropping a couple hammernators before they swing back, and if you have a warding staff (you're playing draigowing, why wouldn't you?) then hammernator benifits are pretty much rendered null.

Normally Draigo and a Libby with MoT is there too. That merans +4 Str after all Hammerhands and Might, so 2+ to wound and no FNP if availible. And if You try to charge, then the Libs comes out with Santuary.

Say what? Hammerhand doesn't stack does it?

as per the main rule book faq psychic powers stack unless specified otherwise.

A working average is that a character and 5 paladins will wipe a 5 man TH/SS squad or reduce it to one or two models (assuming Draigo's GS has given them counter-attack that works both for attack and defence). in return they will most often take no losses or lose one paladin.

The only way deathwing can cause paladins serious trouble is by multi-assaulting with 2 x 5 man squads, which Sanctuary can make quite tricky to pull off if the TH/SS player has not thought ahead.

30 TH/SS terminators will most certainly cause a 10-strong paladin list trouble. The key for the paladins is to ensure they get the charge, and to use stormraven melta and plasma fire (plus the mindstrikes) to weaken the enemy squads that may counter-charge (and to use Sanctuary of course). Belial plus 30 TH/Ss actually costs about the same as 2 stormravens plus Draigo, librarian and 10 paladins so it's a reasonable comparison. 5 man plus character firepower will usually kill one TH/SS terminator before the paladins charge, which makes quite a difference to the chances of wiping the terminator squad so charged. Really then it depends on how much the terrain, consolidation moves and other such factors inhibit the enemy's ability to hit home with 2 4 or 5 man strong squads - it's also often worth not charging Draigo in with his squad but instead sending him on a 'johnny mad - solo man' run against a full squad himself (his squad gains S6 because the Librarian casts Might on them and then hammerhand on his own squad). S6 Draigo with 5 attacks will tend to kill on TH/SS and in return they inflict a wound on him. he'll happily tarpit that squad for a few turns that waymeaning the enemy's counter assault is further inhibited.

Often what holds the key to who wins is what other forces are on the board coupled with the Deathwing player's ability to concentrate his force - if he lets himself get picked off piecemeal or is deluded enough to believe that 5 TH/SS > 5 paladins in assault, he'll be minced.

It's actually a very good and balanced match is deathwing versus paladins.

dnanoodle wrote:Say what? Hammerhand doesn't stack does it?

Yep, it specifically says it stacks, and the bonus is extended to all IC attached. Not only that, but Mioght Of Titan also specifically says it stacks with Hammerhand, though with other Mights, I am not sure. AND, Hammerhand's bopnus is applied BEFORE modifiers such as Daemon Hammers, so 1 Str 4 model+Hammerhand=Str 10 NFW Thunder Hammer!

Therefore, when Draigo, a Paladin Squad and a Libby with MoT all cast Hammerhand, + Might, then they gain +4 Str, meaning Draigo is Str 9 and they are Str 8, and roll 2D6 for AP. And any armed with a Daemon Hammer get Str 10, as does Draigo is the squad contains any Daemons or Psykers. And thet are normally armed with Halberds, so Int 6 Str 8, 2D6 Armour Pen Pallies. The good news is that the Paladins can't ID anyone, unless they are T4>, or T5 if Str 10. The Libby can ID, but only if he takes Mastery Lvl 3, and Draigo can ID one guy.

It has generally been my experience that paladins, + some of number of ICs (Draigo, Libbies, regular GMs or INquisitors with crazy'nades) will lose to TH/SS is straight combat, but win pretty easily if they get a round of shooting first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ThaPlayah wrote:

What are Paladins, slightly harder Terminators in my opinion.

Let's not kid ourselves on here, yes they are decent but they are too expensive not unless they are equipped with NFS then my Terminators will chew through them as will the other 25 Thundernators. I'm not saying I'm an amazing player but there wasn't one Draigowing player on the top tables when I was at Throne of Skulls. Like I said in my earlier post the best Grey Knight player lost to me in the third game after I almost tabled him.

Bearing in mind that there was 1 close combat during the entire game, I blew him to pieces before his Purifiers got close to me.

Well, I have placed quite well at a GT, and for the finals for Ard Boyz with a heavy Draigo and paladin list (still hesitant to call it "Draigo-wing", too much otehr stuff).

Pure Draigowing has done quite well at several tournaments, as well.

So the evidence disagrees with you.

I'd also suggest that at an event like Throne of Skulls, army selection matters far less than player skill. Everybody is good, and the better players are going to emerge.

From my experience with my deathwing, paladins beat my massed THSS termies thanks to shooting, not assault. To that end, I dont consider stormravens at all useful to a proper paladin list, but I am a deathwing player so stormravens dont factor into my playstyle.

I think the issue with paladins is that there are so many paladin lists, when discussing what is good or bad I will have a different army build in mind than you might.

My 2k Draigowing, for example, has Draigo, 10 pallys with 4 cannons, 3 units of 2 cannon purifiers in rhinos, 3 units of psy riflemen dreds, and a 5 man pcannon strike squad.

This list puts so many shots out at a deathwing army that the THSS just melt under the 44 pcannon shots.

Meanwhile, another 2k Draigowing may have 3 pally units in 3 stormravens. The stormravens are great targets for the Deathwing's krak missiles, and the Pallys have no cc support and half the psycannons while only adding 5 total more paladins to the list. Here, a concentrated deathwing termie block can easily deal with the paladins in CC by counterassaulting 1 unit at a time.

It can be. However i dont think its as good as ig or sw. Ive played against it a few times. Lost once to kp (where they seem to be the best at) and won on capture and control (d3 +2 objectives, which is what guard excells at.) And of course we draw on the one where you both have an objective.

One thing is how about weaken resolve on a paly unit, make them ld2, then focus str8+ ap2 shots until you kill 25%. They fail ld and fall back. Sure they rally, but they still fell back on avg 7in.

ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:One thing is how about weaken resolve on a paly unit, make them ld2, then focus str8+ ap2 shots until you kill 25%. They fail ld and fall back. Sure they rally, but they still fell back on avg 7in.

The quote I have on that, by an IG player playing me, is that the paladins almost never take 25% casualties. Complained bitterly about it, in fact. I found his tears sweet.

I beat them with my Tau... and THAT is saying something. hahaha

seriously though, if you take enough shots at termies, they go down... even with FNP

That's pretty cool but I dont see when S8 ID is better than the NFWs, especially if you activate with the BroBanner so you can't fail (and by my reading you can't be stopped by Runes of Warding). It's more spell casts and if any of them are blocked by a hood etc, it doesn't work.

Against MCs and walkers that's pretty amazing though. You don't need to worry about where your hammer is and can kill Furiosos and whatnot at Halberd initiative. Neat trick. Thanks for explaining

loota boy wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Yes, but TH/SS termies only have one wound, so str 7 and str 8 feels the same to them. With paladins, all the kills you just made are sliced in half, and probably you get less casualties because of wound allocation. I am far more afriad of demo russes and basalisks then executioners. Besides, no gaurd players really seem to like russes anymore, it's all bassy variants, manticores and hydras. Of those, i'd only worry about bassys and medusas.

Well, have you kept in mind that TH's can kill Paladins instantly - double strength.

Yes, but every attack I deal kills a guy who doesn't pass his 3++. I also strike first, have ranged attacks, have a higher WS, an extra attack, 2 exctra if I take Falchions, and can get 2+ to wound if a pair of Hammerhands come into it. Not to mention Grand Strategy.

Deadshot wrote:Yes, but every attack I deal kills a guy who doesn't pass his 3++. I also strike first, have ranged attacks, have a higher WS, an extra attack, 2 exctra if I take Falchions, and can get 2+ to wound if a pair of Hammerhands come into it. Not to mention Grand Strategy.

Isn't there competent ranged attack what really sells the Draigowing army? One of the guys on the 11th Company Podcast argues that their main distinction from other hammer-style builds.

I think that a paladin squad's firepower should be seen as a (useful) addition to its considerable assault capability, not as its primary method of reducing the enemy, even (indeed especially) TH/SS terminators because although their shooting is vastly superior, it's not going to reduce them fast enough.

It is firepower that tips the balance against TH/SS terminators because it can reduce them to a level where paladins will win the assault much faster than cyclone missiles whittle down paladins. But tipping the balance isn't the same as 'relying on firepower'.

wuestenfux wrote:

loota boy wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Well, niether does Imperial Plasma weapons of any sort, yet Plasmna seems to a hardf counter to Termikes. And 3 Plasma Cannon shopts from a single weapon, plus another 2 from ther sponsons, ansd whatever you have on the hull, is going to take down even TH/SS. And that is only 1 model.

Yes, but TH/SS termies only have one wound, so str 7 and str 8 feels the same to them. With paladins, all the kills you just made are sliced in half, and probably you get less casualties because of wound allocation. I am far more afriad of demo russes and basalisks then executioners. Besides, no gaurd players really seem to like russes anymore, it's all bassy variants, manticores and hydras. Of those, i'd only worry about bassys and medusas.

Well, have you kept in mind that TH's can kill Paladins instantly - double strength.

Not if my warding staff has anything to say about it.

Like the above posts have said, if you can build it with proper fire support, a draigowing does extremely well

Lacking said support fire, it can get tabled without too much problems.

I am making a draigo wing list atm and it's actually pretty funny the different variety you can do with this as for my Just for Fun messing around and be completely silly list:

2 storm ravens + 2 dreadknights + draigo + liby + like 8 total pallies in 2 squads. 14 total models in a 2k list

I've lost with this list in alot of fights but I just have some odd fun with it.

Wierdly enough though, if you take the same list and kick it up to something like 2500 points and can throw in some autocannon dreads/ven dreads, along with some additionalcheaper scoring units, it starts to kick all sorts of face.

8 paladins?! Divided into 2 squads?! But you get no psycannons!

Well, that can easily work in low points games. I run a 3 man and 2 man squad with Halberds at 1300pts, ansd they do just fine. The 2 men Jump in an shoot something, while Draigo, a Lib and ther other 3 Fly out in the raven, with an Assassin snuiping away for support.

I'm a big fan of paying for the extra guy and 2 Psycannons if we compare a cheap 4-man to a 5-man with upgrades. For 95 points they go from being a deadly CC threat with unimpressive anti-infantry shooting to being insanely dangerous to everything in the game in both phases.

You can easily field Draigo, a Librarian, two squads of 5 tricked-out Paladins, 2 Dreadnoughts with Melta/CC, and 2 Stormravens. The army is fast, hard hitting, and can soak up a lot of hits while dishing out quite a lot of punishment. The downside of using two huge targets becomes a plus as it forces your opponent to divide their attacks or ignore most of your army as they focus down one of your units each turn, which lets you hammer them with everything else fairly unmolested.

SJ

As a Tyranid player, I'm deathly afraid of Draigowing lists in particular and Paladins in general.

The banner that lets every force weapon auto-kill without a test is disgusting, and has been the untimely death of my Carnifexen 1 time too many...

odorofdeath wrote:As a Tyranid player, I'm deathly afraid of Draigowing lists in particular and Paladins in general.

The banner that lets every force weapon auto-kill without a test is disgusting, and has been the untimely death of my Carnifexen 1 time too many...

Is there a list-build option to that?

good point about the dreadnaughts but I really want two dreadknights. If I give up the personal teleporter, I can get 2 more pallies and psy cannons in there. Maybe I can just deep strike them in with psy communion and homing beacon them in? Does the teleport beacon work for the dreadknight? If it counts as wearing terminator armor I suppose it could work.

I always thought a Paladin squad can benifit from an Inquisitor with a psycollum. That gives you a huge shooting advantage versus the mirror matchup and also any GK unit, troop or vehicle.

Paladins rock th/ss termies even b4 adding iquisitor, libby or whatever. espeacially if theyre still rockin their swords.

DarthDiggler wrote:I always thought a Paladin squad can benifit from an Inquisitor with a psycollum. That gives you a huge shooting advantage versus the mirror matchup and also any GK unit, troop or vehicle.

But you then lose the Librarian who is key to undoing the potential for low AP fire to hurt you. Yes, if you're tailoring, but not, I think, as part of a more broadly focused list.

The librarain only helps against low ap guns if you have cover to start with. Getting a 6+ in the open is not that good. If the Paladins are in cover, then they have a 4+ against low ap weapons. The librarian can make it one better. That equates to 1 saved wound every 6 times one gets through or a 16% improvement. Imo that's not saving the Paladins versus low ap weapons.

The Psycollum gimick will work against GK units and vehicles which are the most popular army. Space marine librarians (blood angel, vanilla, rune priests - all very popular) and the units they are attached to. Eldar farseers, walocks and units they attach to. Chaos daemon princes and librarians (not as popular right now).

You know where this could really work well would be in a team environment like the ATC or ETC where you could match up with an army.

they have a 4+ against low ap weapons. The librarian can make it one better. That equates to 1 saved wound every 6 times one gets through or a 16% improvement. Imo that's not saving the Paladins versus low ap weapons.

Proper use of cover is key to running a successful paladin list. But I think you misunderstand the difference between 3+ and 4+.

Say you have to take 12 saves. 4+ means you fail 6. 3+ means you fail 4. that's a 50% improvement, which is of great significance over the course of a game.

But regardless, the Librarian helps against (almost) every unit in every army, the psyocculum mainly against units already disadvantaged against GK. The psyocculum is a reasonable option for some armies but is no help to an army relying on a key unit in an expensive transport.

It's only a 33% improvement, 50% would be failing just 3 saves.

I forget the precise mathematical term, but 33% and 50% are converses of each other. IN one direction it's 33% in the other, it's 50%.

Point is, you're quibbling, the man's logic is solid.

I'm just pointing out a little error. I support his point, just wanted to drop them by.

Competitive yes.. weakness vs certain list types most assuredly

I watched my friends tournament IG list just destroy a Draigo Wing in two turns. How does a Draigo wing counter manticore spam and 8 chimeras filled with plasma and melta guns, and three vendettas on top of that? Especially when he screens his manticores with his chimeras? My friends list was paladins, darigo, librarian, and like 4 psyrifleman.

furbyballer wrote:I watched my friends tournament IG list just destroy a Draigo Wing in two turns. How does a Draigo wing counter manticore spam and 8 chimeras filled with plasma and melta guns, and three vendettas on top of that? Especially when he screens his manticores with his chimeras? My friends list was paladins, darigo, librarian, and like 4 psyrifleman.

Theyre gonna need luck, dice rolls, deployment etc cause in a pitched battle capture and control there isnt much hope if the IG guy is rolling well since Draigo a lot of Draigo lists are slow. Did the DW have any transports?

No, he kept one paladin squad off the table to deep strrike in as two combat squads to try and mitigate the losses on the first turn or so, but his one paly squad and dreads just got screwed by the two ordinance blasts a turn from the maticores. And then when the paldains deep striked in they were just picked off. But the answer was no, no transports.

furbyballer wrote:I watched my friends tournament IG list just destroy a Draigo Wing in two turns. How does a Draigo wing counter manticore spam and 8 chimeras filled with plasma and melta guns, and three vendettas on top of that? Especially when he screens his manticores with his chimeras? My friends list was paladins, darigo, librarian, and like 4 psyrifleman.

Well, the action plan is pretty clear. DS as close as possible to the chimeras (assuming manticores are screened) use shrouding and cover, use psycannons and psyflemen to open up the chimeras, and try to setup massive multicharge against at least a few guardsmen and as many unopened chimeras as possible. Use Might, dedicate as many attacks to chimeras as possible, finish off IG in their assault phase, and shoot and assault what's left the following turn.

That may work, or it may not. Not that I've faced that exact list, but I've been able to make it work against similar lists more often than not.

Ah well then there isnt much you can do vs IG there. Against that many shots and walking is pretty much a death sentence imo. I added sr to mine but I havent played a IG player yet. I have played Inquisition, DE, Crons and Tau.

In my experience mechanised weaklings spamming AP1 and 2 and ID don't like stormravening paladins up 'em much. But basically once you reach his lines, he's easy meat. The army to really fear is not chimera/manticore spam (though it's nasty and would indeed give a foot list a very hard time), It's 9 vendettas (27 TL lascannon, roughly 2/3 hitting, 5/6 wounding, 1/3 failing to cover save is a wiped paladin squad every turn). Even 6 vendettas is horrific. Fortunately I haven't yet played 9.

I don't have many problems with Draigowing when I play my mech eldar. I pretty much tank shock the squad out of cover and then shoot it to death with Fire Dragons. But in my last game I just tank shocked them until they failed their leadership test and escorted them off of the table. The guy had two of those new space marine flyers (I forget what they're called), three psyrifle dreads, a few other things I can't remember and a large ten man squad of Paladins.

I basically sat back and blew up his vehicles until the Paladin squad presented it's self, then I threw all of my tanks at it and eventually it broke and ran. I made sure to keep a tank close to them so they could not regroup and just escorted the squad off the table.

I know it probably wouldn't work every time but it is something to consider when playing them.

Lol I suddenly want to field 9 vendettas.... gdi that's alot of money....

can you actually turn that into some sort of viable list, Artemo?

At 2000 pts I think 9 Vendettas is feasible in an all-comers Weakling list.

Were I to lower myself to actually field weaklings myself I'd be tempted to run them in empty and field a company command with the orbital barrage thingy and reserve rerolls in a chimera with half a dozen or so (I'd have to look up the points) of verteran weaklings with meltas. I'll maybe see what it would look like later today if I've time.

How were vendettas in a GK list?

Tried out a poor 1000 point list against Necrons yesterday (Just Draigo 'n' ten Pallies...)

I got tabled by that Doom Ark thingy... Also held down in place by those rods that make terrain difficult (dangerous thanks to the C'Tan). I lost 3 pallies to dangerous terrain tests and everyone else bar Draigo to the Ark.

Draigo went down to the C'tan when he got into assault with one wound left.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:I don't have many problems with Draigowing when I play my mech eldar. I pretty much tank shock the squad out of cover and then shoot it to death with Fire Dragons. But in my last game I just tank shocked them until they failed their leadership test and escorted them off of the table. The guy had two vendettas, three psyrifle dreads, a few other things I can't remember and a large ten man squad of Paladins.

I basically sat back and blew up his vehicles until the Paladin squad presented it's self, then I threw all of my tanks at it and eventually it broke and ran. I made sure to keep a tank close to them so they could not regroup and just escorted the squad off the table.

I know it probably wouldn't work every time but it is something to consider when playing them.

You don't have to wait and escort them off (and take a chance on them psycannoning down a tank and regrouping).

When you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they automatically fail their morale test without rolling. So, that means they fall back again immediately, over and over again.

I've run paladin units off the table from midfield in a single turn with multiple tank shocks.

Deadshot wrote:How were vendettas in a GK list?

I misnamed them. It's those new space marine flying things that look like they took the front end of a Thunderhawk and threw it onto the back end of a vendetta. Sorry. I fixed it in my earlier post.

@Flavius Infernus. Yeah, that's pretty much what I did. All I was waiting for was the stuff in front of the Paladins to get destroyed so they couldn't get rear shots on my tanks.

I think that 9/10 times all repeated tankshocking on an ld ten unit would just result in a massive roadblock nightmare centered around the paladins, who could then pull off a tasty multi-assault against like 3 tanks at once. And of course, driago's squad is fearless, so while you throw all of your vehicles at one squad, draigo just runs about wrecking face.

Draigos squad is not fearless. He is, but the paladins are not, and fearless is not transferred to the squad.

A little silly, actually.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Draigos squad is not fearless. He is, but the paladins are not, and fearless is not transferred to the squad.

A little silly, actually.

Why? They can be scared.. not like they cleaved the warp in half lol sorry can't resist. ^ statement is correct though.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Draigos squad is not fearless. He is, but the paladins are not, and fearless is not transferred to the squad.

A little silly, actually.

Draigo- "C'mon lads! Its only a Baneblade trying to drive us over!" Raagh! Charge!"

Paladins- " But Sir! There's a Baneblade trying to dirve over us!"

Draigo- "HOLY THRONE!!! THERE'S A BANEBLADE TRYING TO DRIVE OVER US! RUN, LADS, RUN, RUN!"

Deadshot wrote:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Draigos squad is not fearless. He is, but the paladins are not, and fearless is not transferred to the squad.

A little silly, actually.

Draigo- "C'mon lads! Its only a Baneblade trying to drive us over!" Raagh! Charge!"

Paladins- " But Sir! There's a Baneblade trying to dirve over us!"

Draigo- "HOLY THRONE!!! THERE'S A BANEBLADE TRYING TO DRIVE OVER US! RUN, LADS, RUN, RUN!"

Doesn't each paladin have to wrestle a slanesh demon buck naked, one hand tied to an ankle and covered in K-Y or something? And they still have fear why?

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions

Blanket statement and in my experiences not true, in fact I find their lack of flexibility makes them easy to beat in Annihilation with mounted shooty armies; take a KP or two and then run away as they try to catch you in assault.

He actually gave a few good reasons for this just a bit more into the paragraph. Still, they're not that good once the Ravagers start swooping by...

Belexar wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bruteboss wrote:Draigowing are the best army in the game at killpoint missions

Blanket statement and in my experiences not true, in fact I find their lack of flexibility makes them easy to beat in Annihilation with mounted shooty armies; take a KP or two and then run away as they try to catch you in assault.

He actually gave a few good reasons for this just a bit more into the paragraph. Still, they're not that good once the Ravagers start swooping by...

If that were the case then my shrouding sr failed.. not as likely 1st turn but is possible. Though from my exp playin de it was the makin 50 saves from the hellions that was worse then 9 from a ravagers.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Doesn't each paladin have to wrestle a slanesh demon buck naked, one hand tied to an ankle and covered in K-Y or something? And they still have fear why?

SIGGED!

heh heh, cool.