After tearing through the fluff in an evening, I laughed hard at how new Necrons smash every race so hard.
Pretty obvious Matt Ward didn't write this fluff, nothing is his style and the super saiyan powers are kinda limited.
Best new villain award goes to Imotehk... dude is a larger than life evil akin to Horus without the tragic backstory, just friggin evil. Plus, he doesn't whine and moan, he just owns Space Marines really hard and punks pretty much any race that gets in his way.
Love the shift in perspective!
How about you guys? Anything in the new Cron dex make you happy pandas?
The necron lord who sent a message to an Inquisitor 'thanking' her for sending some Catchan regiments to add to his collection, but then complained that they were a bit troublesome.
Nungunz wrote:The necron lord who sent a message to an Inquisitor 'thanking' her for sending some Catchan regiments to add to his collection, but then complained that they were a bit troublesome.
Trazyn is my god damn hero. I loved that piece of fluff personally.
And yeah, Imotekh is badass evil. Trazyn's supreme arrogance just wins so hard.
The Necrons being nigh unstoppable makes them a larger than life evil force that 40K needed badly. Their strength is also on par for what it should be for an evil Xeno army.
Personal favorite was Imotehk beating the crap out of Helbrecht, telling him he sucked, his empire sucked and his troops sucked then cutting his hand off and kicking him off a cliff.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Personal favorite was Imotehk beating the crap out of Helbrecht, telling him he sucked, his empire sucked and his troops sucked then cutting his hand off and kicking him off a cliff.
Such win, that it cannot be measured on an internet scale.
Void__Dragon wrote:I thought most of the fluff sucked, honestly.
I won't blame a vet Cron player for not liking the change. It's your baby and they re-wrote it totally. But some of the stuff is epic win.
Like how new crons dethroned the Imperium for power in the 40K setting. It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova. That's too awesome! I also can dig the different dynasties and the more descriptive backstory they give as to why they turned to the C'Tan.
Mostly I just love reading about really bad Imperial forces getting pantsed hard. The new dex made me happy because it was paragraphs of IG, SMs and Imperial Navy just getting owned.
Then again, I'm a huge Tau fan, so liking the dex was a double edged sword, as it paints Tau as borderline autistic.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Like how new crons dethroned the Imperium for power in the 40K setting. It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova. That's too awesome! I also can dig the different dynasties and the more descriptive backstory they give as to why they turned to the C'Tan.
At least that is somewhat balanced by the fact that if they screw with it too much they'll either break the map or the galaxy or both.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:I won't blame a vet Cron player for not liking the change. It's your baby and they re-wrote it totally. But some of the stuff is epic win.
Like how new crons dethroned the Imperium for power in the 40K setting. It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova. That's too awesome! I also can dig the different dynasties and the more descriptive backstory they give as to why they turned to the C'Tan.
Mostly I just love reading about really bad Imperial forces getting pantsed hard. The new dex made me happy because it was paragraphs of IG, SMs and Imperial Navy just getting owned.
Then again, I'm a huge Tau fan, so liking the dex was a double edged sword, as it paints Tau as borderline autistic.
The Celestial Orrery? That's the most ridiculous thing in the codex. It means that at any given time, if all else fails, the Necrons need just press a button and all of the sudden Terra has been destroyed, enveloped by the sun going supernova. That's beyond ridiculous. I find it incredibly ironic as well, considering that most of the bitching concerning the Necrons when they were released is that they were seen as too powerful and unstoppable. Now they can destroy Terra with the press of a button. But that's not overpowered at all, lol...
I'm glad that the codex didn't have the Necrons taking it up the ass throughout the codex, I'll admit, though Imotekh telling his paltry CC abilities to stfu for a minute so he can kick Helbrecht's ass was kind of stupid (Though that may be the Black Templar fan in me coming to blows with the Necron fan lol). And I'll even say there are a few gems throughout the codex (For instance I like how the codex essentially said that the C'tan are as much an immutable part of reality as time and space, that part was cool).
But I feel that the Necrons themselves, in an effort to emphasize the distinction between the upper echelons of the Necrons, lost what made them Necrons. They don't come off as the alien, implacable of will xenos' who would sell their souls to satiate their inhuman hatred anymore. As far as I'm concerned, they're humans who just happen to be robots now, IMHO.
Oh yeah, and now they use the Webway, rather than having Inertialess Drives. That part just bothers me on a primal level. Apparently the Tyranids have better non-Warp FTL capabilities than Necrons now.
Also, what about the Tau? I can't recall anything really about them within the codex, short of a brief mention of Ka'mais.
Void__Dragon wrote:Oh yeah, and now they use the Webway, rather than having Inertialess Drives. That part just bothers me on a primal level. Apparently the Tyranids have better non-Warp FTL capabilities than Necrons now.
That's an interesting bit of fluff. Guess it aint Eldar anymore who prowl the webway. Webway Border Patrol skirmishes, anyone?
The Inertialess drives retcon really irked me...That's probably my biggest irk with the whole codex.
I think the necrons retained a lot of their cosmic horror-ness but lost a great deal as well...It's hard to tell when the 'dex is trying to talk about necron society within itself and necron society in relation to all the other races of 40k.
There's still episodes of them tossing screaming humans into furnaces to be rendered down into energy for their mass consumption though the emphasis was taken away from things like this which is another big failing of the 'dex IMO. They spiced it up with some examples but it got kind of muddled with all the individuality they tried to interject necron society with...
To the Orrery:
BrainDeleted wrote:At least that is somewhat balanced by the fact that if they screw with it too much they'll either break the map or the galaxy or both.
And also the Necrons that control it don't seem to be into the whole squelching stars for fun schtick
BrainDeleted wrote:The Inertialess drives retcon really irked me...That's probably my biggest irk with the whole codex.
I think the necrons retained a lot of their cosmic horror-ness but lost a great deal as well...It's hard to tell when the 'dex is trying to talk about necron society within itself and necron society in relation to all the other races of 40k.
There's still episodes of them tossing screaming humans into furnaces to be rendered down into energy for their mass consumption though the emphasis was taken away from things like this which is another big failing of the 'dex IMO. They spiced it up with some examples but it got kind of muddled with all the individuality they tried to interject necron society with...
Yeah, the Inertialess Drives being lost is all kinds of lame. Now they use Webway! Yay! No not yay, boo, boo on you guy who came up with that.
Eh. I can't see the cosmic horror, for the most part. It didn't even really emphasize that the Necrons are worried about the day the C'tan shards might one day come together to reform a C'tan to destroy them. It didn't read like Cosmic Horror at all to me.
I missed that third part entirely, somehow.
I guess I shouldn't say it all "sucked," some of it I guess can be considered all right if you look at it through sunglasses that aren't soured by butthurt, but I don't really like it.
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BrainDeleted wrote:To the Orrery:
BrainDeleted wrote:At least that is somewhat balanced by the fact that if they screw with it too much they'll either break the map or the galaxy or both.
And also the Necrons that control it don't seem to be into the whole squelching stars for fun schtick
True but the option is still very much there, and it is obviously used. If all else fails, I see no reason why they wouldn't decide to cripple their biggest threat when in dire straits. Which they can easily do.
Also, that World is constantly warring with a Dynasty (You can't imagine how much I hate that word) that is more proactive in its use.
I think, if anything, the newcrons would never destroy the galaxy barring the destroyers who don't have enough power to gain control of said Orrery anyway. They have it ingrained in their circuits(???) to rule the galaxy again even if many of them are crazy crazies.
The furnace thing is under 'The Dissolution of Burr'
'The Hall of Swords' is another good one for some horror.
BrainDeleted wrote:I think, if anything, the newcrons would never destroy the galaxy barring the destroyers who don't have enough power to gain control of said Orrery anyway. They have it ingrained in their circuits(???) to rule the galaxy again even if many of them are crazy crazies.
The furnace thing is under 'The Dissolution of Burr'
'The Hall of Swords' is another good one for some horror.
Why would they need to destroy the galaxy, when they only need to destroy Terra to lay the Imperium low?
Codex: Necrons wrote:Such an act cannot be performed without consideration, however, as each star destroyed in this fashion upsets the fundamental forces of the galaxy, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction.
Just sayin'. Terra's plot armour is undoubtably thick enough that destroying it all wanton, willy nilly would take down a lot of other stuff with it. Unacceptable losses.
.........Better counterbalance than Kaldor.........
If the Necrons did destroy the sun the GK would probably do something like they did with Titan or the Emperor projects a sort of psychic bubble and protect it anyway.
Are the stars really destroyed or do they just supernova? As they already do that all the time.
Codex: Necrons wrote:Such an act cannot be performed without consideration, however, as each star destroyed in this fashion upsets the fundamental forces of the galaxy, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction.
Just sayin'. Terra's plot armour is undoubtably thick enough that destroying it all wanton, willy nilly would take down a lot of other stuff with it. Unacceptable losses.
.........Better counterbalance than Kaldor.........
From a narrative perspective though, the Imperium can't hope to ever defeat the Necrons in the long-term. Logically, I mean. Terran plot armour is indeed incredibly thick, but... Plot armour isn't really a justification.
For that matter, somehow the Necrons can make any star in the galaxy go supernova with the press of a button, essentially projecting a massively FTL signal through space, and when it reaches its destination can produce enough energy to make the star supernova, yet they can't achieve FTL flight without hacking into the Webway?
Meh.
Oh, and Wraiths being changed into arachnid faced automotons rather than being Necrons proper is one of those annoying, unnecessary changes.
Reading through the codex, all the emphasis on honor, courage, and herorism that's prevelant in the Necron race has sicekened me. An occasional donkey-cave can't change what is clearly a sunnier depiction of the 'crons.
Also, I think they're much less of a threat to the Imperium then before. We always knew they had devastating superweapons. However they're just petty empires now, most aren't even concerned with humanity and some will trade/work/ally with it. Many fight and compete with each other. The days of a unified army of machines moving to harvest all life is over. As long as the Imperium shows enough honor a good number of Dynasties will go easy on it. Moreover even the largest Dynasty is just 80 worlds, not nearly enough to pose a major status quo-altering thread to the Imperium.
Rather, it seems the Necrons are more concerned with fighting against the Eldar, who are determined to wipe out these poor misunderstood machines.
A piece of nauseating fluff for me was the Necron Lord who captured a White Scars Khan then let him go when he tried to escape because he put up such a honorable fight. Or the one that gives Imperial worlds a month to evacuate because "the honor of battle dictates it". Then there's the Dynasty that's despised for going back on their word. Or the Dynasty that's disliked by Necrons for being too violent....
The Silent King, the biggest Necron of them all, is basically trying to save the galaxy from the Tyranids and refused to control the Necrons as machines because that would be mean. He's the Illidin (Warcraft 3) of 40k. He's a hero.
Harriticus wrote:Reading through the codex, all the emphasis on honor, courage, and herorism that's prevelant in the Necron race has sicekened me. An occasional donkey-cave can't change what is clearly a sunnier depiction of the 'crons.
Also, I think they're much less of a threat to the Imperium then before. We always knew they had devastating superweapons. However they're just petty empires now, most aren't even concerned with humanity and some will trade/work/ally with it. Many fight and compete with each other. The days of a unified army of machines moving to harvest all life is over. As long as the Imperium shows enough honor a good number of Dynasties will go easy on it. Moreover even the largest Dynasty is just 80 worlds, not nearly enough to pose a major status quo-altering thread to the Imperium.
Rather, it seems the Necrons are more concerned with fighting against the Eldar, who are determined to wipe out these poor misunderstood machines.
A piece of nauseating fluff for me was the Necron Lord who captured a White Scars Khan then let him go when he tried to escape because he put up such a honorable fight. Or the one that gives Imperial worlds a month to evacuate because "the honor of battle dictates it". Then there's the Dynasty that's despised for going back on their word. Or the Dynasty that's disliked by Necrons for being too violent....
The Silent King, the biggest Necron of them all, is basically trying to save the galaxy from the Tyranids and refused to control the Necrons as machines because that would be mean. He's the Illidin (Warcraft 3) of 40k. He's a hero.
The list keeps going and going.
Necrons? As heroes?
Hmm... Im really going to have to grab that codex and have a read. I mean, what on earth? Next thing you know the Tau Empire will develop mass xenophobia and turn on all their auxiliary allies.
Harriticus wrote:Reading through the codex, all the emphasis on honor, courage, and herorism that's prevelant in the Necron race has sicekened me. An occasional donkey-cave can't change what is clearly a sunnier depiction of the 'crons.
Also, I think they're much less of a threat to the Imperium then before. We always knew they had devastating superweapons. However they're just petty empires now, most aren't even concerned with humanity and some will trade/work/ally with it. Many fight and compete with each other. The days of a unified army of machines moving to harvest all life is over. As long as the Imperium shows enough honor a good number of Dynasties will go easy on it. Moreover even the largest Dynasty is just 80 worlds, not nearly enough to pose a major status quo-altering thread to the Imperium.
Rather, it seems the Necrons are more concerned with fighting against the Eldar, who are determined to wipe out these poor misunderstood machines.
A piece of nauseating fluff for me was the Necron Lord who captured a White Scars Khan then let him go when he tried to escape because he put up such a honorable fight. Or the one that gives Imperial worlds a month to evacuate because "the honor of battle dictates it". Then there's the Dynasty that's despised for going back on their word. Or the Dynasty that's disliked by Necrons for being too violent....
The Silent King, the biggest Necron of them all, is basically trying to save the galaxy from the Tyranids and refused to control the Necrons as machines because that would be mean. He's the Illidin (Warcraft 3) of 40k. He's a hero.
The list keeps going and going.
Uuhhh.
The Lord that Captured one of the Khans also happens to be the Lord who thinks he's still fighting Necrontyr in the wars of succession so that makes perfect sense that he'd let someone go for the above reasons. He thinks the marine is a Necrontyr warrior.
Why would an Overload want to waste his time and warriors killing Imperials if it is possible that they would surrender? This is the Lord described as dangerously low on troops because of his galactic travels to waken other Necrons. He wanted only to reach the tomb world beneath them. As for trading/allying/working with the Imperials...Hm...I see an example of demands of tithes from subjugated human worlds and I see a few examples of "allying" with Imperials when a greater mutual threat presents itself. If anything, they're just a little less mindless, destroy-all about their conquering of the galaxy. Gross over exaggeration.
The Dynasty that's disliked because it's "too violent" is made up of flayed ones who try to consume flesh though it does nothing for them, wear skins and other grisly trophies because they're completely insane, ect, ect. It's not even just this that makes other Necrons wary of them...It's the fact that their horrible insanity is contagious...Oh, and it is a terrible curse afflicted upon their kind by a C'Tan. Yup, totally want to integrate that Dynasty into the greater Necron Empire. Totally not a good idea to destroy/avoid them. They're Necron too, after all.
The Dynasty mistrusted for going back on its word.......Well, this should just be pretty darn self evident.
The Silent King doesn't want to save the Galaxy for heroic reasons. He wants to stop the Tyranids for the same reason Chaos and the DE want to stop the Tyranids: THEY DESTROY EVERYTHING. What's the point in dominating a galaxy full of burnt out husk planets? There isn't one.
As for their overall threat level, they're still as they've always been. A half realized but inevitable and extremely potent threat. The fact that the largest Dynasty has ~80 (Where did you get this number?) worlds reflects that they're still not all awake and sleepy time continues.
Seriously, please don't degenerate into mindless hate, thread. Please.
Nungunz wrote:The necron lord who sent a message to an Inquisitor 'thanking' her for sending some Catchan regiments to add to his collection, but then complained that they were a bit troublesome.
This would be much better for Dark Eldar than Necrons...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Best new villain award goes to Imotehk... dude is a larger than life evil akin to Horus without the tragic backstory, just friggin evil. Plus, he doesn't whine and moan, he just owns Space Marines really hard and punks pretty much any race that gets in his way.
Yeah until High Marshal Helbrecht come, then he run like a little girl crying out for help
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BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Pretty obvious Matt Ward didn't write this fluff, nothing is his style and the super saiyan powers are kinda limited.
I thought that to, it seems they ban him from writing the fluff and give him only rules to write ( just like Sisters mini codex update ).
About damn time to...
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Pilau Rice wrote:
Did the War in Heaven and Enslaver Plague still happen and did the Necrons still land on Mars?
War in the Haven happened but not the Enslaver Plague.
After the War in Haven was finished ( right after the Old Ones destruction ) the Silent King turned entire Necron race against the C'Tan, destroyed them and then send his entire people to sleep.
There is no mention whatsoever about Void Dragon or Necron Landing on Mars. But since every dynasty has it's story we can assume that landing did happened, but now with maybe different purpose, like maybe trying to steal some ancient tech from the Mechanicus or something else...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Best new villain award goes to Imotehk... dude is a larger than life evil akin to Horus without the tragic backstory, just friggin evil. Plus, he doesn't whine and moan, he just owns Space Marines really hard and punks pretty much any race that gets in his way.
Yeah until High Marshal Helbrecht come, then he run like a little girl crying out for help
BeefCakeSoup wrote:It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova.
This is one of the few things I don't like in new fluff ( this one in particular ). They gave them to much power, in fact they gave them so much power that it is pointless fighting against this particular dynasty. Tau a problem? Blow up 13 suns and problem solved. Tyranids a problem? Blow up 100 Stars and problem solved. Imperium a problem? Blow up 1.000.000+ suns and problem solved.
Good they add that this Dynasty is never going to use the machine and that they fight even Necrons to deny any access of it.
Brother Coa wrote:
War in the Haven happened but not the Enslaver Plague.
Oh Well I guess it fits in with the C'tan being all split up and all.
Brother Coa wrote:After the War in Haven was finished ( right after the Old Ones destruction ) the Silent King turned entire Necron race against the C'Tan, destroyed them and then send his entire people to sleep.
There is no mention whatsoever about Void Dragon or Necron Landing on Mars. But since every dynasty has it's story we can assume that landing did happened, but now with maybe different purpose, like maybe trying to steal some ancient tech from the Mechanicus or something else...
Does it mention anything about the last of the Old Ones being Slain?
Hopefully the Dragon on Mars isn't a shard but the real deal. I see much possibility if this is the case, as this hasn't been retconned it makes sense still why the Necrons were trying to get to Mars.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Best new villain award goes to Imotehk... dude is a larger than life evil akin to Horus without the tragic backstory, just friggin evil. Plus, he doesn't whine and moan, he just owns Space Marines really hard and punks pretty much any race that gets in his way.
Yeah until High Marshal Helbrecht come, then he run like a little girl crying out for help
Did you...read the rest of that story?
Tip: It really doesn't end well for Helbrecht.
I was talking about "Fall of the Conqueror", 55 years after Shrodinger VII. Were Helbrecht kicked his ass ( if fact, he didn't. Imotech run away as soon as BT bored his vessel. Coward )
Helbrecht destroyed Imotech's capital ship and all his vessels that coudn't escape BT fleet.
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Pilau Rice wrote:
Does it mention anything about the last of the Old Ones being Slain?
Hopefully the Dragon on Mars isn't a shard but the real deal. I see much possibility if this is the case, as this hasn't been retconned it makes sense still why the Necrons were trying to get to Mars.
Yes, codex say that "the Old Ones were defeated, scattered and finally destroyed." I assume that means that they were hunted to the last one.
There is nothing in new codex to suggest that all of the C'Tan was destroyed. Some of them maybe escaped the slaughter, but there is no data on that either. So if you still like Void Dragon on Mars story, you can because there is nothing to indicate that story in not valid.
Brother Coa wrote:
Yes, codex say that "the Old Ones were defeated, scattered and finally destroyed." I assume that means that they were hunted to the last one.
Yeah, they said that about the Iron Men and Thunder Warriors.
So the Necrons actually won the War in Heaven, what drove them into hibernation if it wasn't the Enslavers?
Brother Coa wrote:
Yes, codex say that "the Old Ones were defeated, scattered and finally destroyed." I assume that means that they were hunted to the last one.
Yeah, they said that about the Iron Men and Thunder Warriors.
So the Necrons actually won the War in Heaven, what drove them into hibernation if it wasn't the Enslavers?
You should read the new fluff if you haven't. It is amazing, but if you really must know it was 1 thing - the Eldar.
And of course in the new cron codex the crons own everybody. It's because that is their codex, how can you lose in your codex.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova.
This is one of the few things I don't like in new fluff ( this one in particular ). They gave them to much power, in fact they gave them so much power that it is pointless fighting against this particular dynasty. Tau a problem? Blow up 13 suns and problem solved. Tyranids a problem? Blow up 100 Stars and problem solved. Imperium a problem? Blow up 1.000.000+ suns and problem solved.
Good they add that this Dynasty is never going to use the machine and that they fight even Necrons to deny any access of it.
Actually it's made quite clear that doing that sort of thing would be really, really bad for the Necrons. The ones in control of it are fighting other 'crons to defend it precisely because they know blowing up any old star could have a cataclysmic chain effect. The ones who rule it know how to control the device properly, and if any other Necron got it they'd probably blow themselves up along with everything else.
So wait, where were the Eldar during the War in Heaven, they were the major race fighting along with the Old Ones in the original story.
I wil lnot tell you anything so that I don't ruin your reading of a new codex. But I can give you this LINK REMOVED BY THE ORDER OF INQUISITION. BUY ORIGINAL AND SUPPORT GW THAT WILL BRING YOU MORE FIGURINES
I can see why new players may like it, but for me it's not a patch on the original.
It's littered with contradictions and vagaries. In the context of the old background, none of it makes sense. There's little explanation as to how the Necrons constructed the uber-weapons that killed the C'tan (I would have gone with opening up black hole-esque warp storms to suck them into the Immaterium so they'd be obliterated completely) or how they managed to use them on the C'tan in the first place (arrogance is a poor reason). What did they do? "Oi Deceiver, come over here, we want you to pose for a portrait to go into Trazyn's gallery - won't take a moment...(bwahahaha)".
The fact that they want to re-conquer the galaxy and are willing to use the shards of the beings that accursed them (and saved them from near extinction it should be noted) in order to do it is just insane. The fact they want to continue the path that led to their eternal damnation in the first place is equally as baffling. Then there's the whole "Woe is us, we just want to be flesh again, we're so sorry" angle - they're just too human now, they're like any other living race, albeit with immortal bodies and immense weaponry. They're no longer implacable in will - only in body.
Now their motives can be whatever you want - might as well have left the pages blank so we could fill them in for ourselves
I'm all for creating background, but it has to have a firm foundation. What appeals to me about the 'Nids is the utter lack of human motive, the same was for the 'Crons, who were totally evil automatons under the command of an uncaring God's power.
What I liked about the original background is the tragedy of the Necrontyr and the utter inescapable, innevitability of death they meant for the other races. I liked the fact they were expressionless, soulless automatons whose eternal hatred manifested in them harvesting souls for their masters - not like the 'Nids who are just hungry.
Having said all this the Codex has its moments but for me they simply aren't Necrons anymore, more of a copy and paste, DIY, human-esque race of immortal machines who have a fetish for electricity and personal extravagence. Still, at least the rules and models are pretty good
Honestly Coa, I am going to read it anyway so you might as well just let me know and it might be a good idea to remove that link.
I'm not one to half inch a codex.
Ok if you want. Eldar somehow survived the war, and with Necrons weak from the war with the C'Tan the SIlen King feared the Eldar would destroy them all so ( to avenge the Old Ones ) he decided to put them all to sleep for 60 million years and wait until all Eldar die out ( he said that death comes to all flesh in the end ).
Automatically Appended Next Post: And P.S. guys sorry for the link, I didn't know this was illegal.
Brother Coa wrote:
Ok if you want. Eldar somehow survived the war, and with Necrons weak from the war with the C'Tan the SIlen King feared the Eldar would destroy them all so ( to avenge the Old Ones ) he decided to put them all to sleep for 60 million years and wait until all Eldar die out ( he said that death comes to all flesh in the end ).
Sounds feasible I suppose. Not sure if I prefer it over the Enslaver plague as it kind of makes the Enslavers a bit bleh now.
I guess he might be a bit annoyed that there are two types of Eldar now if not as populace anymore
Void__Dragon wrote:I thought most of the fluff sucked, honestly.
I won't blame a vet Cron player for not liking the change. It's your baby and they re-wrote it totally. But some of the stuff is epic win.
Like how new crons dethroned the Imperium for power in the 40K setting. It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova. That's too awesome! I also can dig the different dynasties and the more descriptive backstory they give as to why they turned to the C'Tan.
Mostly I just love reading about really bad Imperial forces getting pantsed hard. The new dex made me happy because it was paragraphs of IG, SMs and Imperial Navy just getting owned.
Then again, I'm a huge Tau fan, so liking the dex was a double edged sword, as it paints Tau as borderline autistic.
I think the new fluff gives the crons more color, rather than just being mindless robots.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Best new villain award goes to Imotehk... dude is a larger than life evil akin to Horus without the tragic backstory, just friggin evil. Plus, he doesn't whine and moan, he just owns Space Marines really hard and punks pretty much any race that gets in his way.
Yeah until High Marshal Helbrecht come, then he run like a little girl crying out for help
Did you...read the rest of that story?
Tip: It really doesn't end well for Helbrecht.
I was talking about "Fall of the Conqueror", 55 years after Shrodinger VII. Were Helbrecht kicked his ass ( if fact, he didn't. Imotech run away as soon as BT bored his vessel. Coward )
Helbrecht destroyed Imotech's capital ship and all his vessels that coudn't escape BT fleet.
Thing is though, Helbrecht had his chance to fight Imotehk and he got his ass kicked, his Imperium laughed at, his hand cut off, and a teabagging to his doom.
Then he rolls up fifty years later, boards a ship, whoops every ass he can on his way to the bridge, only to find it empty. Not sure why he would want to fight Imotehk again after he got his ass handed to him in a 1 v 1 so hard.
Necrons: 1
Black Templars: 0
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Pilau Rice wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Yes, codex say that "the Old Ones were defeated, scattered and finally destroyed." I assume that means that they were hunted to the last one.
Yeah, they said that about the Iron Men and Thunder Warriors.
So the Necrons actually won the War in Heaven, what drove them into hibernation if it wasn't the Enslavers?
Enslaver Plague is hinted at, but essentially the Necrons fighting alongside the C'Tan pretty much destroyed the Old Ones.
It would seem to be that the idea of the Old Ones creating most of the current 40K races (Krork) has been retconned too, now they just had allies, such as the Eldar. Pretty much fits with things I was saying on the board some time last year.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Thing is though, Helbrecht had his chance to fight Imotehk and he got his ass kicked, his Imperium laughed at, his hand cut off, and a teabagging to his doom.
Then he rolls up fifty years later, boards a ship, whoops every ass he can on his way to the bridge, only to find it empty. Not sure why he would want to fight Imotehk again after he got his ass handed to him in a 1 v 1 so hard.
Necrons: 1
Black Templars: 0
LOLWUT???
I will quote: " Pride complies Imotekh t ostand and fight, but his forces are in disarray and so logic wins out, dictating withdrawal. The Stormlord therefore teleports to an escort vessel and makes his escape. COWARD!!!!!!! BUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Helbrecht is incandescent with fury at his foe's retreat, but consoles himself by personally setting Imotech's beloved flagship on a collision course with nearby star, and blasting to smithereens those other Necron craft too slow to flee. BADASS!!!
Imotech is a coward and has no honor. To avoid his but kicking he run like a crying little girl and escape. Moreover, he left his flagship and his ships to be owned by Black Tempalrs who destroy them. I hope Guiliman, Eldar, Tau and Tyranids own his ass soon as it is written in the codex. And it is said in his personal page that he will be beat in combat by warrior, not a tactician.
Cerebrium wrote:Yes, because retreating from a fight where you're outnumbered and outgunned is clearly cowardice.
Speaking of that, wouldn't this be a case in favour of the theory that the Black Templars ignore the fact that they aren't allowed to have ships with comparable firepower to that of the Imperial Navy? I mean, they pretty much smoked that Necron fleet, and Necrons have the most powerful ships in the Galaxy (haven't seen anything retconing this).
warspawned wrote:I can see why new players may like it, but for me it's not a patch on the original.
It's littered with contradictions and vagaries. In the context of the old background, none of it makes sense. There's little explanation as to how the Necrons constructed the uber-weapons that killed the C'tan (I would have gone with opening up black hole-esque warp storms to suck them into the Immaterium so they'd be obliterated completely) or how they managed to use them on the C'tan in the first place (arrogance is a poor reason). What did they do? "Oi Deceiver, come over here, we want you to pose for a portrait to go into Trazyn's gallery - won't take a moment...(bwahahaha)".
The fact that they want to re-conquer the galaxy and are willing to use the shards of the beings that accursed them (and saved them from near extinction it should be noted) in order to do it is just insane. The fact they want to continue the path that led to their eternal damnation in the first place is equally as baffling. Then there's the whole "Woe is us, we just want to be flesh again, we're so sorry" angle - they're just too human now, they're like any other living race, albeit with immortal bodies and immense weaponry. They're no longer implacable in will - only in body.
Now their motives can be whatever you want - might as well have left the pages blank so we could fill them in for ourselves
I'm all for creating background, but it has to have a firm foundation. What appeals to me about the 'Nids is the utter lack of human motive, the same was for the 'Crons, who were totally evil automatons under the command of an uncaring God's power.
What I liked about the original background is the tragedy of the Necrontyr and the utter inescapable, innevitability of death they meant for the other races. I liked the fact they were expressionless, soulless automatons whose eternal hatred manifested in them harvesting souls for their masters - not like the 'Nids who are just hungry.
Having said all this the Codex has its moments but for me they simply aren't Necrons anymore, more of a copy and paste, DIY, human-esque race of immortal machines who have a fetish for electricity and personal extravagence. Still, at least the rules and models are pretty good
I'll start by saying the C'tan were not killed. Only 1 was ever mentioned of being obliterated, the rest merely split into thousands of shards.. Which could reunite to form a whole C'tan again if given the chance.
Next, it seemed implied to me that the Silent King was in control of pratically the whole race at this point by myself and regretted how he led his race to be devastated by the biotransference and pretty much enslaved to him/the C'tan. I don't consider that arrogance, more like revenge. He then cut his control over the other Necrons before going into self-imposed exile, which would then explain how we have the factions and many independant dynasties that we do rising up individually with their interests before the greater Empire as a whole.
Third, they are not nessicarily willing to use the shards except when in dire straits. There is to much risk in the shard's getting free or rebelling when used, even with the failsafes which could cause huge backlash for the Necrons if the shards reunited.
I think the desire for living bodies is a interesting angle, but it does not appeal to me. It keeps that horror aspect of "Soulless machines harvesting the galaxy" because that is exactly what they are doing in their quest for the perfect being to transfer into.
The Necrons are still soulless automatons, and anything but the Lords and Crypteks(Praetorians as well) are practically mindless hordes still(Though Lords in the old codex were mentioned of still having some emotion and personality anyways).
On leaving pages blank for ourselves. Might as well have done that with every other codex that has a bit of personality in it. You can do the same for Guard, Chaos Marines, Eldar/D. Eldar, Tau. What have you except Tyranids and maybe Daemons.
I think there are plenty of remnants of the old codex scattered around the new codex that the Necrons really have not changed as dramatically as people think. They are still soulless machines, still hordes of mindless automatons that are subjugated to a higher beings will(the Overlords). They still harvest other lifeforms, albeit for a different motivation. And they view the rest of the races as weakling upstarts that they want to control and dominate or as I mentioned, to be harvested.
Removal of the Necrons' fancy FTL was pretty bad. Somehow we're to buy that the Necrons created a galaxy spanning empire using sub-light travel (the galaxy is 100,000 LY across), then we're to believe that they somehow decided to have a civil war at sub-light speeds (never mind that it would take decades or centuries to even get around to declaring war, much less launch a decent attack), and then, finally, decided to maintain unity, they decide to throw their dirt slow ships at a different galaxy spanning empire that actually had FTL capabilities. Even if we ignore the fact that without FTL it'd take millenia for the Necron leaders to organize for a war, how stupid would you have to be to attack an enemy that has such a decisive advantage?
They should have left the Necron FTL alone, and just said that the C'Tan borked up the webway as part of a plan to cripple the Old Ones' ability to fight back.
I guess they didn't necessarily retcon it...But they never mentioned it at all and implied that they rely on the webway now...I think I need to read it more closely again
The Lord that Captured one of the Khans also happens to be the Lord who thinks he's still fighting Necrontyr in the wars of succession so that makes perfect sense that he'd let someone go for the above reasons. He thinks the marine is a Necrontyr warrior.
They still shouldn't be showing such mercy out of honor. In the grimdark of 40k mercy is hard to come by, so anyone who shows it comes off as quite heroic. The Orks/Tyranids/Chaos/Dark Eldar/most Imperial factions/even Eldar wouldn't contemplate mercy.
Why would an Overload want to waste his time and warriors killing Imperials if it is possible that they would surrender? This is the Lord described as dangerously low on troops because of his galactic travels to waken other Necrons. He wanted only to reach the tomb world beneath them. As for trading/allying/working with the Imperials...Hm...I see an example of demands of tithes from subjugated human worlds and I see a few examples of "allying" with Imperials when a greater mutual threat presents itself. If anything, they're just a little less mindless, destroy-all about their conquering of the galaxy. Gross over exaggeration.
He didn't offer them peaceful withdrawal out of practicality, the codex specifically said it was done because the honor of battle dictates. Necron society is specifically described as valuing "oaths of blood and honor" as immensely important, for a race of supposed machines.
Not to mention if the Necrons were really bent on galactic conquest and teach the lesser races some humility, they would want to sow as much terror and bloodshed as they could.
The Dynasty that's disliked because it's "too violent" is made up of flayed ones who try to consume flesh though it does nothing for them, wear skins and other grisly trophies because they're completely insane, ect, ect. It's not even just this that makes other Necrons wary of them...It's the fact that their horrible insanity is contagious...Oh, and it is a terrible curse afflicted upon their kind by a C'Tan. Yup, totally want to integrate that Dynasty into the greater Necron Empire. Totally not a good idea to destroy/avoid them. They're Necron too, after all.
Flayed ones used to have so much more depth, necrons who retained a part of their old selves and wanted to experience it again. Now it's just OMG VIRUS HATE THEM. I guess that's why I have such a problem with the whole concept
The Dynasty mistrusted for going back on its word.......Well, this should just be pretty darn self evident.
Ones word and honor shouldn't have any meaning for machines, but I guess I still want to see the Necrons as a machine race rather then the Necrontyr.
The Silent King doesn't want to save the Galaxy for heroic reasons. He wants to stop the Tyranids for the same reason Chaos and the DE want to stop the Tyranids: THEY DESTROY EVERYTHING. What's the point in dominating a galaxy full of burnt out husk planets? There isn't one.
Dude, he destroyed the protocol that would have allowed him to command the Necron legions as a whole (and thus easily assert their domination over the galaxy) because that was mean and dishonorable. He went on a self-imposed exile of penance. He's a heroic figure in the world of 40k, at worst an anti-hero. Really, the Necrons if anyone should come to a mutual understanding with the Tyranids if that were possible as they can't be consumed (though according to Ward they can, which makes no sense).
As for their overall threat level, they're still as they've always been. A half realized but inevitable and extremely potent threat. The fact that the largest Dynasty has ~80 (Where did you get this number?) worlds reflects that they're still not all awake and sleepy time continues.
You have specific entries about Tomb Worlds fighting each other and acting independent, they won't unite and won't ever be more then a localized threat, even with the return of the Silent King. Its been made clear that the Necrontyr Race was prone to disunity in the new codex (and the Necrons now are just the Necrontyr, there's no real difference anymore). Should the Tomb Worlds truly unite then they could be an existential threat again but that isn't going to happen, just as it won't happen with Orks or Chaos. Of course it would have been possible had the Silent King not destroyed the command protocol over all Necrons, but noooo that was too mean a thing to do.
And that is why the Necrons have been de-escalated as a threat. They used to be on the level of the Tyranids, immensely powerful and unified in goal/purpose, but now they are localized. The most powerful Sarutekh Dynasty is stated as just being a threat on the Imperium's Eastern Fringe. Not to the Imperium as a whole. The Imperium has gained a valuable boost in its strategic situation from this codex.
And the 80 numbers comes from GW's website about Imotekh.
Seriously, please don't degenerate into mindless hate, thread. Please.
It isn't mindless hate. It's legitimate criticism of the new fluff that I give with specific reasons as to why I criticize it. I don't see why I can't express that.
I don't simply bash anything that's new, I think the 5th Ed. DE Codex is one of GW's best ever for instance.
Fair enough. You didn't really give reasons, just hyperbolic, over simplified fluff the first go round which I why I responded as such. While I don't agree with you on most of your points, you've got a pretty valid opinion.
Though I gotta snipe the untrustworthy dynasty one...Don't matter who you are, if they keep plunging a dagger in your back, you ain't gonna trust them. It's logic, machines at least have that. And any understanding with the Tyranids is impossible. They don't negotiate (Anymore ). The Necrons simply aren't going to tolerate someone destroying THEIR galaxy.
daveNYC wrote:Removal of the Necrons' fancy FTL was pretty bad. Somehow we're to buy that the Necrons created a galaxy spanning empire using sub-light travel (the galaxy is 100,000 LY across), then we're to believe that they somehow decided to have a civil war at sub-light speeds (never mind that it would take decades or centuries to even get around to declaring war, much less launch a decent attack), and then, finally, decided to maintain unity, they decide to throw their dirt slow ships at a different galaxy spanning empire that actually had FTL capabilities. Even if we ignore the fact that without FTL it'd take millenia for the Necron leaders to organize for a war, how stupid would you have to be to attack an enemy that has such a decisive advantage?
They should have left the Necron FTL alone, and just said that the C'Tan borked up the webway as part of a plan to cripple the Old Ones' ability to fight back.
I agree with BrainDeleted. There's no way they forged a galaxy spanning empire with Torch Ships, they must have some form of FTL travel. It's just not mentioned in the books. They can't have used the Webway for this FTL travel, as it's expressly mentioned that they only break into it near the end of the War in Heaven. And, I don't think it's stated decisively but the way I understand the Dolmien Gates is that because they tear open the Webway, the gates they forge are unstable. The Webway tries to fix itself. So only armies use it, they don't seem to be able to move their actual fleets through en masse.
1 vs 1 - He got his ass kicked and his hand cut off. It wasn't even described as a tough fight, he could of easily killed him.
Ambushing a flagship with support vessels with a BT fleet then launching a boarding party isn't a 1 v 1. Imotehk wanted to stay, most likely because he knew in a 1 v 1 he would stomp the BT Chapter Master out twice no sweat. However, he is a logic bot and came to the conclusion it wasn't going to be a 1 v 1. Also, one flagship isn't a big deal to a Necron Overlord with as many Tomb Worlds at his command as Imotehk has. Building weapons for war isn't a lost art of zany fake magic science to Necrons, they simply build the best and haven't forgotten how.
2. Dolmen Gates give Crons the ability to enter the webway. They did mention that at one point the Necrontyr Empire had slow travel, but as the stories progress they are suggested as having fast FTL, though not as fast as the webway.
Edit: Plus the World Engine covered ground faster than a torch ship. IE they developed a solid form of FTL.
I myself really love the new fluff, and because the codex is so good (in my opinion) i'm going to start a necron army very soon!
Well... after Christmas...
Void__Dragon wrote:I thought most of the fluff sucked, honestly.
I won't blame a vet Cron player for not liking the change. It's your baby and they re-wrote it totally. But some of the stuff is epic win.
Like how new crons dethroned the Imperium for power in the 40K setting. It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova. That's too awesome! I also can dig the different dynasties and the more descriptive backstory they give as to why they turned to the C'Tan.
Mostly I just love reading about really bad Imperial forces getting pantsed hard. The new dex made me happy because it was paragraphs of IG, SMs and Imperial Navy just getting owned.
Then again, I'm a huge Tau fan, so liking the dex was a double edged sword, as it paints Tau as borderline autistic.
I think the new fluff gives the crons more color, rather than just being mindless robots.
I always thought that was the point of the Necrons. If they're going to change it that much, it's not really the Necrons any more.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:2. Dolmen Gates give Crons the ability to enter the webway. They did mention that at one point the Necrontyr Empire had slow travel, but as the stories progress they are suggested as having fast FTL, though not as fast as the webway.
Edit: Plus the World Engine covered ground faster than a torch ship. IE they developed a solid form of FTL.
I look at the Webway as being roughly the same as the farcaster network in the Hyperion novels (read the first two, punch anyone who suggests the last two) allowing instant (or near instant for the web) travel to any point on the network. Travel would have been much faster and easier back before the C'Tan busted it up, not to mention the damage caused by the Fall.
World Engine would have had to have FTL capability, just not sure if that story still counts as valid fluff, since I'm not sure it was written with the Necron retcon in mind (unlike the BA story).
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Ambushing a flagship with support vessels with a BT fleet then launching a boarding party isn't a 1 v 1.
But is intended to become 1 vs 1, because why would you board a ship if you don't want to face the bridge crew and the capt'n..?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Imotehk wanted to stay, most likely because he knew in a 1 v 1 he would stomp the BT Chapter Master out twice no sweat.
No.
BeefCakeSoup wrote: However, he is a logic bot and came to the conclusion it wasn't going to be a 1 v 1.
Its always a 1 vs 1 after boarding. There is no fun without following the ancient path of the 'leader vs leader' fight, established long ago as one of the major scenes in a story.
So logic would dictate it will be another 1 vs 1.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Also, one flagship isn't a big deal to a Necron Overlord with as many Tomb Worlds at his command as Imotehk has.
Getting kicked of his Flagship is not raising the mood of the Overlord..
Is there any newly built ship mentioned, except of the main fleet base which sends off ships at random courses...thus malfunctions a bit.
I'd love to have them have their own shipyards but it seems they just collect the tech stored anywhere pre-stasis.
Now, the main alteration that wasn''t mentioned yet ( or I missed this posted already ) was the whole 'accept tribute, demand respect'
theme Necrons got added. The Necron have zero interest in destroying the galaxy , harvesting all life or any other means as respect and tribute needs someone to pay. ( 829.M41 Aryand )
They even got so far to create incidents to send other factions against each other. ( 815.M41 explorer fleet 913 ).
1hadhq wrote:
Getting kicked of his Flagship is not raising the mood of the Overlord..
Is there any newly built ship mentioned, except of the main fleet base which sends off ships at random courses...thus malfunctions a bit.
Speaking of those ships, is anyone else a bit amazed that a broadside from a battle-barge was enough to drop the shields of a Tomb Ship? Either that means that the Newcron ships are weaker by far than what we're used to or the Templar's battle-barges are more powerful than we've previously thought.
1hadhq wrote:
Getting kicked of his Flagship is not raising the mood of the Overlord..
Is there any newly built ship mentioned, except of the main fleet base which sends off ships at random courses...thus malfunctions a bit.
Speaking of those ships, is anyone else a bit amazed that a broadside from a battle-barge was enough to drop the shields of a Tomb Ship? Either that means that the Newcron ships are weaker by far than what we're used to or the Templar's battle-barges are more powerful than we've previously thought.
IIRC 'Cron ships were always kind of spongey to the lolhuge guns of the Imperium. Their strength came from their ridiculously efficient stealth systems which made them hard to target, and the self repair ability. Plus blinding speed and even more powerful guns.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:2. Dolmen Gates give Crons the ability to enter the webway. They did mention that at one point the Necrontyr Empire had slow travel, but as the stories progress they are suggested as having fast FTL, though not as fast as the webway.
Edit: Plus the World Engine covered ground faster than a torch ship. IE they developed a solid form of FTL.
I look at the Webway as being roughly the same as the farcaster network in the Hyperion novels (read the first two, punch anyone who suggests the last two) allowing instant (or near instant for the web) travel to any point on the network. Travel would have been much faster and easier back before the C'Tan busted it up, not to mention the damage caused by the Fall.
World Engine would have had to have FTL capability, just not sure if that story still counts as valid fluff, since I'm not sure it was written with the Necron retcon in mind (unlike the BA story).
World Engine was essentially a Tomb World with its engines fired up.
It is mentioned in the Cron dex as the result of a civil war in which a more ambitious Lord took command of it and sent it on a path of destruction.
As for the BT vs Imotehk fight...
In a stand up fight with armies waging war against each other and leaders squaring off, Imotehk and his Dynasty are better then the Black Templars and Helbrecht at war. This is ultimately the reason why Helbrecht wants revenge so badly, he got defeated strategically and physically by Imotehk. Then when he should of been granted honorable death, he was humiliated and had his right hand taken off as a reminder of who his daddy was.
Helbrecht then thought he could outsmart Imotehk by ambushing him only to come up shorthanded (lol)
The ultimate lesson learned being that you shouldn't try to fist bump Necrons unless you're a Blood Angel and know the secret after bump sidewinder secret handshake. Otherwise, the Cron will take your hand off.
Oh and fyi, fights between Necrons and the IoM aren't actually fights. It's just the Imperium getting on its knees and begging for mercy or fighting to the last.
Technology is heavily in Necron favor and Tomb Worlds are basically World Engine / Forge Worlds that pump out insane armies that win almost flawless victories.
Necrons are all over the place, while they aren't numerous ants, they are top tier in 40K fluff, the ultimate Alpha Predator that only recognizes Tyranids as a threat.
Why would an Overload want to waste his time and warriors killing Imperials if it is possible that they would surrender? This is the Lord described as dangerously low on troops because of his galactic travels to waken other Necrons. He wanted only to reach the tomb world beneath them. As for trading/allying/working with the Imperials...Hm...I see an example of demands of tithes from subjugated human worlds and I see a few examples of "allying" with Imperials when a greater mutual threat presents itself. If anything, they're just a little less mindless, destroy-all about their conquering of the galaxy. Gross over exaggeration.
He didn't offer them peaceful withdrawal out of practicality, the codex specifically said it was done because the honor of battle dictates. Necron society is specifically described as valuing "oaths of blood and honor" as immensely important, for a race of supposed machines.
Not to mention if the Necrons were really bent on galactic conquest and teach the lesser races some humility, they would want to sow as much terror and bloodshed as they could.
The Necrons always had a bit of personality in their lords, who ultimately controlled the lower echelons of the Necron warmachine. I think it is fair to say that they were never really "only machines" but more like AI or Androids or Cyborgs. Also, I think all the Honor and protocol makes Necrons a step above other races. They still want to harvest, subjugate, blah blah, but they are far more "civilized" in their way of going about it that when compared to Dark Eldar or the Imperium who view everyone else as "lesser races" the Necrons actually prove they are a cut above the other powers. Atleast that is how I view it. It's a very Lawful Evil-Neutral viewpoint I think.
The Dynasty that's disliked because it's "too violent" is made up of flayed ones who try to consume flesh though it does nothing for them, wear skins and other grisly trophies because they're completely insane, ect, ect. It's not even just this that makes other Necrons wary of them...It's the fact that their horrible insanity is contagious...Oh, and it is a terrible curse afflicted upon their kind by a C'Tan. Yup, totally want to integrate that Dynasty into the greater Necron Empire. Totally not a good idea to destroy/avoid them. They're Necron too, after all.
Flayed ones used to have so much more depth, necrons who retained a part of their old selves and wanted to experience it again. Now it's just OMG VIRUS HATE THEM. I guess that's why I have such a problem with the whole concept
In Fall of Damnos which is supose to be a representation of the new fluff, the Flayed ones were still as you said along with how the new codex describes them. They were driven insane and wanted to experience life again, or be flesh again, so they draped themselves in the flesh of their enemies and tried to eat meat. Remember, Codecies are supose to be an overview of a race/army, just because the unit's entry doesn't same something about them doesn't mean that is the end all be all of their fluff.
The Dynasty mistrusted for going back on its word.......Well, this should just be pretty darn self evident.
Ones word and honor shouldn't have any meaning for machines, but I guess I still want to see the Necrons as a machine race rather then the Necrontyr.
See my first bolded point. Necron Lords were mentioned as having some personality in older fluff, that was expanded upon. I don't think it is a far stretch to think that their personalities, having been retained, are still moulded and build upon their original society/culture.
The Silent King doesn't want to save the Galaxy for heroic reasons. He wants to stop the Tyranids for the same reason Chaos and the DE want to stop the Tyranids: THEY DESTROY EVERYTHING. What's the point in dominating a galaxy full of burnt out husk planets? There isn't one.
Dude, he destroyed the protocol that would have allowed him to command the Necron legions as a whole (and thus easily assert their domination over the galaxy) because that was mean and dishonorable. He went on a self-imposed exile of penance. He's a heroic figure in the world of 40k, at worst an anti-hero. Really, the Necrons if anyone should come to a mutual understanding with the Tyranids if that were possible as they can't be consumed (though according to Ward they can, which makes no sense).
He is not a heroic figure to the universe. He started a galatic war, turned his whole race into souless robots, and then fought another war that devastated said race. He felt he had betrayed his whole race in the deal with the C'tan and sought to correct that, but that doesn't mean other Necrons would ever view him as such. He was the one that cursed them all to live out in metallic bodies with no feeling after all, I would doubt that any Necron feels like he is a heroic figure. I would go with he is an Anti-Hero if not a villain who sought to "correct his wrongdoing" in regards to his own race.
As for their overall threat level, they're still as they've always been. A half realized but inevitable and extremely potent threat. The fact that the largest Dynasty has ~80 (Where did you get this number?) worlds reflects that they're still not all awake and sleepy time continues.
You have specific entries about Tomb Worlds fighting each other and acting independent, they won't unite and won't ever be more then a localized threat, even with the return of the Silent King. Its been made clear that the Necrontyr Race was prone to disunity in the new codex (and the Necrons now are just the Necrontyr, there's no real difference anymore). Should the Tomb Worlds truly unite then they could be an existential threat again but that isn't going to happen, just as it won't happen with Orks or Chaos. Of course it would have been possible had the Silent King not destroyed the command protocol over all Necrons, but noooo that was too mean a thing to do.
And that is why the Necrons have been de-escalated as a threat. They used to be on the level of the Tyranids, immensely powerful and unified in goal/purpose, but now they are localized. The most powerful Sarutekh Dynasty is stated as just being a threat on the Imperium's Eastern Fringe. Not to the Imperium as a whole. The Imperium has gained a valuable boost in its strategic situation from this codex.
And the 80 numbers comes from GW's website about Imotekh.
You seem to forget this codex is also representing the Necrons are a still emerging and reawakening threat. Along with the fact that Imotekh's dynasty is suposidly expanding at an exceptional rate that it is a cause for concern already to the Ultramarines and the Tau.
Also, disunity is the common theme for the villains of 40k is it not? If any of the "Greater Evils"(Tyranids the exception) ever united for longer than 5 minutes and gave some thought into a battle plan they would ultimately devastate the Imperium/Tau/Eldar. So plot armor wins here. Also it does mention that the ultimate directive(s) of the Necrons are to reunite the Empire, and it does look like some of the Dynasties do want to do that, not to mention that there even is a special character going around gathering a massive army and forming alliances with other dynasties so said goal could be achieved.
You can't really argue who would win in a fight between Imotekh and Helbrecht.
They have fought in martial combat once.
Imotekh embarassed Helbrecht, humiliating him. Imotekh told his own relatively paltry TTCC abilities to shut up for five minutes so he can go ahead and spank the Chapter Master of the Black Templars, a chapter renowned for their prowess in close combat.
... For the life of me, I'm not sure why people are eating up the Necrons being the invincible spankmachines in the fluff now. Since that was one of the main complaints regarding them when they came out (Which mostly resulted from misunderstandings with the fluff, IMHO).
Also, 1hadhq, the Necrons were always on the side of Order. They represented ultimate Order, the stagnation of life and space itself. They are now in fact much more chaotic than they used to be.
1hadhq wrote:Nercons want order. No longer a force of disorder ( evil ).
Looking forward to see your favorite xenos bend their knee before the cron overlords.
Just because you are not a force for disorder does not mean you cannot still be evil, or shades of grey, or are good. For instance if you look at D&D alignments you have Lawful Evil, which compared to Chaotic Evil(D. Eldar, or Chaos) is seen as "a well-ordered system as being easier to exploit, and show a combination of desirable and undesirable traits; while they usually obey their superiors and keep their word, they care nothing for the rights and freedoms of other individuals and are not averse to twisting the rules to work in their favor." It's also known as the "Dominator" alignment. What are Necrons if not a race of protocal and honor bound beings that want to rule and subjugate?
I would argue the new fluff certainly paints the Necrons as being less "Evil", but my point was that you can still be a force of order and be evil.
Void__Dragon wrote:
They have fought in martial combat once.
That combat was not fair.
Helbrecht has kill him several times, it is said in the codex. But each time he deal him a mortal blow his wound regenerate in split of a second and stike him back.
No wonder he fell to the ground after being mortally hit several times.
The Necrons were definitely a force of order in the galaxy, and definitely evil.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:That combat was not fair.
Helbrecht has kill him several times, it is said in the codex. But each time he deal him a mortal blow his wound regenerate in split of a second and stike him back.
No wonder he fell to the ground after being mortally hit several times.
That's like saying the Swarmlord didn't fight fair with Calgar by being really big and strong, aka a Tyranid Monstrous Creature.
Or me saying Helbrecht wasn't fighting fair by being much faster than Imotekh.
Imotekh embarassed Helbrecht, humiliating him. Imotekh told his own relatively paltry TTCC abilities to shut up for five minutes so he can go ahead and spank the Chapter Master of the Black Templars, a chapter renowned for their prowess in close combat.
... For the life of me, I'm not sure why people are eating up the Necrons being the invincible spankmachines in the fluff now. Since that was one of the main complaints regarding them when they came out (Which mostly resulted from misunderstandings with the fluff, IMHO).
Also, 1hadhq, the Necrons were always on the side of Order. They represented ultimate Order, the stagnation of life and space itself. They are now in fact much more chaotic than they used to be.
Yep Helbrecht was chosen , maybe the former BT vs Necron fluff 'inspired' one to add a BT vs Necron piece into the new fluff.?
Weird as it is, GW decided to release the 'finecasted' Helbrecht in November....and guess whose Hands weren't altered?
The invincibility idea here is only BeefCakeSoups doing.
Necrons had the same left unchecked and you will rue it status of the threats in the 40k verse as anyone else.
The trick this time is to obey the "don't disturb" sign on the door.
I suspect the theme order vs disorder as main line of 6th ed could come true, given the necrons new clothes ( codex ).
They still dislike orks and elves. Plus finally accept their duty of kicking the nids out.
They are order and surely always were, but the non-talkative Necrons had a bit of a wildcard.
The changes made moved them into a less destructive position in the gathering of the 40k species.
Marshal_Hadrial wrote:
I would argue the new fluff certainly paints the Necrons as being less "Evil", but my point was that you can still be a force of order and be evil.
I was aware of the RPG alignments used by D&D, just didn't think my post would open the can labeled "evil/good". Should take more care next time, promise.
Necrons aren't evil as other races aren't good. I Admit It wasn't correct to use the term evil there.
Necrons got diversified so much, we can't be sure if every Necron with personality is similar in "alignment" . Because his body and maybe basic routines could be copies, and not individually created shells for the Necrontyr in question and the remaining "alignment" is maybe not a correct representation of the former Necrontyr. Some overlords did get things wrong after the great sleep and the Necrons got "humanized" a bit with the changes. The mechanicum may deem the machine perfect, we can see the machine is not perfect, given the example of the Necrons.
1hadhq wrote:Yep Helbrecht was chosen , maybe the former BT vs Necron fluff 'inspired' one to add a BT vs Necron piece into the new fluff.?
Weird as it is, GW decided to release the 'finecasted' Helbrecht in November....and guess whose Hands weren't altered?
Oh yeah, I forgot, the Black Templars were present at Damnos IIRC.
The invincibility idea here is only BeefCakeSoups doing.
I dunno man, Necron technology in particular has gotten a more quantifiable boost. A Necron Lord tricks an Ork into casually erasing both he and the planet he is on from existence, using some technology the Lord could apparently just give away.
Necrons had the same left unchecked and you will rue it status of the threats in the 40k verse as anyone else.
The trick this time is to obey the "don't disturb" sign on the door.
Only now the Necrons are a much more obvious and active threat than before, and yet only the Alaitoc Craftworld seems to give a damn.
I suspect the theme order vs disorder as main line of 6th ed could come true, given the necrons new clothes ( codex ).
They still dislike orks and elves. Plus finally accept their duty of kicking the nids out.
They are order and surely always were, but the non-talkative Necrons had a bit of a wildcard.
The changes made moved them into a less destructive position in the gathering of the 40k species.
Perhaps so. But I feel a lot was lost as well.
I was aware of the RPG alignments used by D&D, just didn't think my post would open the can labeled "evil/good". Should take more care next time, promise.
Necron supremacy is not an idea, it's pretty much fluff fact.
Necrons are unstoppable in their current portrayal. World Engines burn through Imperial fleets, Megaliths eclipse over cities, Necron forces are described as having several massive wars against the IoM, in which Hive Worlds are pretty much swept aside without Necron Rulers even thinking they are fighting actual resistance.
Necrons blow through the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, PDF, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, and Imotehk probably has exterminated more races than the Emperor of Mankind.
Necrons are top dogs at the moment, Imperial forces are more likely to run then fight a foe that swats thunderhawks out of the skies and humiliates Chapter Masters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CpatTom wrote:You know what a tactical genius would do?
Get his hand cut off, then it would fix itself with reanimation protocols.
I like to think of these new Crons as British, with Top Hats, and talking all funny British talk while twirling their metal mustaches.
Still haven't read it, though looking forward to it based on all the emotion spewed throughout these pages.
It's pretty awesome.
Vet Cron players will have mixed feelings, but I like how they start the story 65 million years before the Emperor was even born. Narrative is not typical Ward writing, I have a strong suspicion a different person wrote fluff.
I don't know if necrons still hold the top spot. They use to, but it looks like they have been fluff nerfed. They are no longer united, there ships don't go fast. They don't seem to be the same level of threat. I kind of see them more likely to save humanity then doom it.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Necrons blow through the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, PDF, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, and Imotehk probably has exterminated more races than the Emperor of Mankind.
THey were in sleep around 60.000.000 years and before that they were mindless servants of the Silent King who onle defeated the Old Ones then C'Tan and then send them all to hibernation. No "exterminated" races here exept C'Tan and the Old Ones. And Emperor didn't exterminate any alien race, only his son Fulgirm had, and that is just 1 race, not races.
Necrons are top dogs at the moment, Imperial forces are more likely to run then fight a foe that swats thunderhawks out of the skies and humiliates Chapter Masters.
Hm...let me see....
Are they united? No.
Are they have superior FTL. No.
Do they outnumber Humanity? No.
Do they hold countless number of worlds? Beside several ones mentioned, No.
Do they suffer defeat sometimes? Yes, by both Imperials and Orks.
Are they top dogs? No. Imperium still hold the 1'st place being largest and most unified force in the galaxy.
New Necrons are actually weaker then the old ones.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ultramarinescout wrote:I will need to read some Black Library books on them before I decide.
Actually, they are more united than most of the bad guys. Their most basic programming is basically "enslave/kill everyone and take control again". While there's a few dynasties damaged and hence not following this command, it's probably no more than the number of Imperial worlds which rebel on a regular basis.
Are they have superior FTL. No.
Yes, actually. They definitely have some form of FTL not reliant on the Warp, which makes it better than the Warp. It might be slower, but they don't have to worry about showing up a hundred years late or being eaten by thought forms. Then there's the Dolmen Gates, which make them more mobile than the Eldar. Eldar have to rely on natural Webway Gates. Necrons can make their own.
Do they outnumber Humanity? No.
Considering that humanity needs to expend millions of soldiers to conquer a world, and the Necrons never really expend troops in the long run, this doesn't matter. Plus, it's also described that there are billions of Necrons sleeping on thousands of Tomb Worlds. And unlike humanity, every single one of them is some kind of soldier or weapon of war. Humanity has useless civilians at the lowest point (or if we're talking just military guys, the PDF), Necrons have their Warriors.
Do they hold countless number of worlds? Beside several ones mentioned, No.
Okay, valid point. They don't hold as many as the Imperium. I'd be willing to bet they come in second or third. To the Imperium. Both of them probably suck compared to how many worlds Orks control. God damn pests. :p
Do they suffer defeat sometimes? Yes, by both Imperials and Orks.
Shall we list the Imperial defeats of the 40k fluff? Damnos (Necrons), Sanctuary 101 (Necrons again), several million worlds at the hands of the Tyranids, the Cadian Gate as of the Thirteenth Black Crusade is no longer under complete Imperial control. Only Cadia remains a solid fortress, and even then there are Chaos forces entrenched there. And that's just from the codices I actually have access to (save the 13th Crusade, which I still have the newsletters for. I loved that Campaign.)
Are they top dogs? No. Imperium still hold the 1'st place being largest and most unified force in the galaxy.
Largest, yeah probably. But the fluff pretty much dictates that this won't last. The Emperor is dying, the Imperium's grip is rapidly decaying, they're losing ground everywhere to heretics, xenos and just general rebellion. I'd hardly call that unified. The Tau and Eldar are far more unified than that.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Necron supremacy is not an idea, it's pretty much fluff fact.
Necrons are unstoppable in their current portrayal. World Engines burn through Imperial fleets, Megaliths eclipse over cities, Necron forces are described as having several massive wars against the IoM, in which Hive Worlds are pretty much swept aside without Necron Rulers even thinking they are fighting actual resistance.
Necrons blow through the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, PDF, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, and Imotehk probably has exterminated more races than the Emperor of Mankind.
Necrons are top dogs at the moment, Imperial forces are more likely to run then fight a foe that swats thunderhawks out of the skies and humiliates Chapter Masters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CpatTom wrote:You know what a tactical genius would do?
Get his hand cut off, then it would fix itself with reanimation protocols.
I like to think of these new Crons as British, with Top Hats, and talking all funny British talk while twirling their metal mustaches.
Still haven't read it, though looking forward to it based on all the emotion spewed throughout these pages.
It's pretty awesome.
Vet Cron players will have mixed feelings, but I like how they start the story 65 million years before the Emperor was even born. Narrative is not typical Ward writing, I have a strong suspicion a different person wrote fluff.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Necrons blow through the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, PDF, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, and Imotehk probably has exterminated more races than the Emperor of Mankind.
And yet a Tomb Ship has it's shields stripped from it by a broadside from a Battle-barge. Ambiguity much?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Necrons blow through the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, PDF, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, and Imotehk probably has exterminated more races than the Emperor of Mankind.
And yet a Tomb Ship has it's shields stripped from it by a broadside from a Battle-barge. Ambiguity much?
Well, tombships aren't even suposed to have voidshields at all But hey, who cares about old fluff now that Ward has shown us the light...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Necrons blow through the Imperial Navy, the Imperial Guard, PDF, Space Marines, Tau, Eldar, and Imotehk probably has exterminated more races than the Emperor of Mankind.
And yet a Tomb Ship has it's shields stripped from it by a broadside from a Battle-barge. Ambiguity much?
Well, tombships aren't even suposed to have voidshields at all But hey, who cares about old fluff now that Ward has shown us the light...
Shields does not necessarily equal Void Shields.
Necron ships were always squishy, mainly due to the Imperium's love affair with stupidly big guns (nothing screams , DIE YOU BASTID like a gun with a barrel the size of your car). Their power came from how difficult they were to target and the fact that their weapons were far, far better than Imperial weapons. If a Tomb Ship was ambushed, I don't doubt a Battle Barge (one of the most powerful ships in the Imperium) would be capable of bringing its shields down.
Actually, they are more united than most of the bad guys. Their most basic programming is basically "enslave/kill everyone and take control again". While there's a few dynasties damaged and hence not following this command, it's probably no more than the number of Imperial worlds which rebel on a regular basis.[
No they aren't, the fluff clearly states that every dynasty is fighting against other dynasties for prevail. We have only few fluff examples of Necron dynasties working together. All other examples they are fighting each other. They only one being able to unite them all was Silent King, and using the Old Ones as a bait. The only time they were truly united was when they were under Silent King direct control, and he destroyed that remote controler and thus every hope that their race will be united again.
Are they have superior FTL. No.
Yes, actually. They definitely have some form of FTL not reliant on the Warp, which makes it better than the Warp. It might be slower, but they don't have to worry about showing up a hundred years late or being eaten by thought forms. Then there's the Dolmen Gates, which make them more mobile than the Eldar. Eldar have to rely on natural Webway Gates. Necrons can make their own.
Better in sense they need decades to the nearest star system, those ships serve to transfer troops and they are equipped with stasis pods. And they are easy picking for the Imperial Navy ships. That is great fail compared to their previous fluff.
Do they outnumber Humanity? No.
Considering that humanity needs to expend millions of soldiers to conquer a world, and the Necrons never really expend troops in the long run, this doesn't matter. Plus, it's also described that there are billions of Necrons sleeping on thousands of Tomb Worlds. And unlike humanity, every single one of them is some kind of soldier or weapon of war. Humanity has useless civilians at the lowest point (or if we're talking just military guys, the PDF), Necrons have their Warriors.
The point is that Mankind can reinforce their losses quickly while Necrons can't. Every time their solder fall and cannot repair he is lost to them forever. And numbers do count, when 1 Necron warrior is fired upon by 100 Guardsman he doesn't have much of a chance against them do he? And those Tomb WOrlds are under contant danger, natural or no. There is very small chance that a great number of them will awoke undamaged.
Do they hold countless number of worlds? Beside several ones mentioned, No.
Okay, valid point. They don't hold as many as the Imperium. I'd be willing to bet they come in second or third. To the Imperium. Both of them probably suck compared to how many worlds Orks control. God damn pests. :p
Good that we see this in common sense.
Do they suffer defeat sometimes? Yes, by both Imperials and Orks.
Shall we list the Imperial defeats of the 40k fluff? Damnos (Necrons), Sanctuary 101 (Necrons again), several million worlds at the hands of the Tyranids, the Cadian Gate as of the Thirteenth Black Crusade is no longer under complete Imperial control. Only Cadia remains a solid fortress, and even then there are Chaos forces entrenched there. And that's just from the codices I actually have access to (save the 13th Crusade, which I still have the newsletters for. I loved that Campaign.)
God Emperor.... shall I list alien defeats? I need to type several days to list them all. And all Necron engagements in new fluff are against MINOR Imperial forces. I noticed that in every battle Necrons fought against the Imperium in new codex they outnumber the Humans badly. Then the NEcrons got owned when several Space Marine chapters atack at the same time, destroying the Tomb World without any major losses. In all other losses it was Necron entire military force against 1 Guard Regiment ( usually numbering 8 - 12.000 Men ). If Necron force was to be outnumbered buy Humans they would lose badly every battle because of the sherr firepower they can brought to bare.
Are they top dogs? No. Imperium still hold the 1'st place being largest and most unified force in the galaxy.
Largest, yeah probably. But the fluff pretty much dictates that this won't last. The Emperor is dying, the Imperium's grip is rapidly decaying, they're losing ground everywhere to heretics, xenos and just general rebellion. I'd hardly call that unified. The Tau and Eldar are far more unified than that.
It's called the Time of Ending for a reason. : D
And yet we have 116 of the rulebook that say: "They know as we know that night approaches and all mortal life shall be extinguished ( The end times ). We know, as they cannot, that there shall be a new dawn and a new day when we will rise and they will be driven into the darkness forever ( the age after the End Times )." This means that they are temporary in bad situation, defending more worlds than they can. And that they will stabilize in some point and punch back again. For now, Imperium is still the largest and the most powerful galactic fighting force, because all others are either disunited or minor threats. As for the end times, as NEcron fluff can change dramatically so it can that fluff. We will just wait 6'th edition and see for ourselves.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Oh and fyi, fights between Necrons and the IoM aren't actually fights. It's just the Imperium getting on its knees and begging for mercy or fighting to the last.
Technology is heavily in Necron favor and Tomb Worlds are basically World Engine / Forge Worlds that pump out insane armies that win almost flawless victories.
Necrons are all over the place, while they aren't numerous ants, they are top tier in 40K fluff, the ultimate Alpha Predator that only recognizes Tyranids as a threat.
I think, I nearly chocked to death when reading your post.
I'm not boasting about the IoM's strength or anything, but the necrons are not the only ones to have shiny toys. Nor do they have the sharpest teeth IMO.
No offense intended (and I mean it, keep cool ), but your posts almost reek of necron fanboyism. No need to get this lyrical when describing your utter satisfaction of seeing your fav faction crushing all of its opponents in their brand new codex.
It is true that the necrons are shown under a very favorable light in the latest codex, but guess what... every other race is also shown as a group uber-winning badasses in their own codices. Matt Ward (or the ghost writer behind the new cron dex, as some people claim) didn't invent anything.
After reading the nid or the ork codex, I was also under the impression that they would soon be the ultimate masters of the galaxy and that every other faction was doomed to extinction. But after regaining a cool and rational mind, I realized that it was normal for these races to be depicted this way in their own codex.
I think describing the necrons as the "apex predators of the galaxy" or the "tier 1" race in the Universe is a bit overreacting.
I'm not boasting about the IoM's strength or anything, but the necrons are not the only ones to have shiny toys. Nor do they have the sharpest teeth IMO.
No offense intended (and I mean it, keep cool ), but your posts almost reek of necron fanboyism. No need to get this lyrical when describing your utter satisfaction of seeing your fav faction crushing all of its opponents in their brand new codex.
It is true that the necrons are shown under a very favorable light in the latest codex, but guess what... every other race is also shown as a group uber-winning badasses in their own codices. Matt Ward (or the ghost writer behind the new cron dex, as some people claim) didn't invent anything.
After reading the nid or the ork codex, I was also under the impression that they would soon be the ultimate masters of the galaxy and that every other faction was doomed to extinction. But after regaining a cool and rational mind, I realized that it was normal for these races to be depicted this way in their own codex.
I think describing the necrons as the "apex predators of the galaxy" or the "tier 1" race in the Universe is a bit overreacting.
Thank you good sir for bringing reason in this thread. Thank the Emperor for that.
Brother Coa wrote:
No they aren't, the fluff clearly states that every dynasty is fighting against other dynasties for prevail. We have only few fluff examples of Necron dynasties working together. All other examples they are fighting each other. They only one being able to unite them all was Silent King, and using the Old Ones as a bait. The only time they were truly united was when they were under Silent King direct control, and he destroyed that remote controler and thus every hope that their race will be united again.
The Silent King gave one last order prior to destroying his protocols. Which was "take control of the galaxy again". All the Necrons obey that, it's their most basic programming.
Better in sense they need decades to the nearest star system, those ships serve to transfer troops and they are equipped with stasis pods. And they are easy picking for the Imperial Navy ships. That is great fail compared to their previous fluff.
Where does it state decades other than prior to the War in Heaven? There's no way they conquered the galaxy without FTL. It just wouldn't happen. Plus, even if that were the case they still have the webway. How many times have Eldar fleets and armies shown up out of nowhere? And they have less of a choice of where to show up than the Necrons.
The point is that Mankind can reinforce their losses quickly while Necrons can't. Every time their solder fall and cannot repair he is lost to them forever. And numbers do count, when 1 Necron warrior is fired upon by 100 Guardsman he doesn't have much of a chance against them do he? And those Tomb WOrlds are under contant danger, natural or no. There is very small chance that a great number of them will awoke undamaged.
You missed my point. The Imperium invades a world. It loses millions. They take it. Necrons invade a world, they lose a fraction of that amount. If they don't repair on the field of battle, they repair in a Tomb. If they can't be repaired there, they are broken down into energy and parts...used to build more stuff. And are your worlds not under constant danger? Rebellion, heretics, rogue governors, and every single alien race ever. The Imperium has more worlds and a less efficient way of communicating with them. They can't possibly maintain control over everything to the same degree a similarly sized Necron empire could.
Good that we see this in common sense.
Huzzah! Agreement. ^ _ ^
God Emperor.... shall I list alien defeats? I need to type several days to list them all. And all Necron engagements in new fluff are against MINOR Imperial forces. I noticed that in every battle Necrons fought against the Imperium in new codex they outnumber the Humans badly. Then the NEcrons got owned when several Space Marine chapters atack at the same time, destroying the Tomb World without any major losses. In all other losses it was Necron entire military force against 1 Guard Regiment ( usually numbering 8 - 12.000 Men ). If Necron force was to be outnumbered buy Humans they would lose badly every battle because of the sherr firepower they can brought to bare.
Did you miss every other indication? Like the entire Hive World which got wiped, the numerous space marine chapters. Damnos itself had a huge army, and it got wiped ridiculously quickly. With Space Marine help. When did Space Marines ever unite to wip out a tomb world in this Codex. I would like a page number, because I honestly don't remember. And if it takes a bunch of space marine chapters, anybody is dying to that, Necron or no. It's hardly a fair point. On average, the Necrons face down whole Imperial worlds, with millions of guardsmen and PDF, and win. And they regularly whoop Space Marine ass too.
And yet we have 116 of the rulebook that say: "They know as we know that night approaches and all mortal life shall be extinguished ( The end times ). We know, as they cannot, that there shall be a new dawn and a new day when we will rise and they will be driven into the darkness forever ( the age after the End Times )." This means that they are temporary in bad situation, defending more worlds than they can. And that they will stabilize in some point and punch back again. For now, Imperium is still the largest and the most powerful galactic fighting force, because all others are either disunited or minor threats. As for the end times, as NEcron fluff can change dramatically so it can that fluff. We will just wait 6'th edition and see for ourselves.
True, the fluff might change. But the rulebook is written from an Imperial standpoint. Of course there's going to be propaganda like that in an excerpt from an Imperial file. How will the Imperium recover when the Emperor dies? No more Astronomicon, no more warp travel, no more Imperium. But yes, the fluff might change back to the glory days of the Imperium, but I doubt it. The Imperium's situation has been getting worse with every edition. I can't see that changing.
EDIT: Regarding the guy who posted before me (NINJA D:<, yeah the Imperium does have some pretty fancy guns. Guns the size of a building is what they excel at (and are awesome for). It doesn't change that in fluff the Necrons have things which outmatch Titans. I agree Necrons aren't top tier though. Only Chaos could probably be a top tier enemy, or those damned Orks. The point is that the Necrons, if left unchecked, will be a near undefeatable problem. They aren't the only ones. Chaos and Tyranids also fall into this category.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Personal favorite was Imotehk beating the crap out of Helbrecht, telling him he sucked, his empire sucked and his troops sucked then cutting his hand off and kicking him off a cliff.
Such win, that it cannot be measured on an internet scale.
Brother Coa wrote:
No they aren't, the fluff clearly states that every dynasty is fighting against other dynasties for prevail. We have only few fluff examples of Necron dynasties working together. All other examples they are fighting each other. They only one being able to unite them all was Silent King, and using the Old Ones as a bait. The only time they were truly united was when they were under Silent King direct control, and he destroyed that remote controler and thus every hope that their race will be united again.
The Silent King gave one last order prior to destroying his protocols. Which was "take control of the galaxy again". All the Necrons obey that, it's their most basic programming.
No. His last order was: "rebuild your dynasties, and restore them to their former glory." He might forgot en that they restored them to glory by crushing other dynasties that rival them. Ups...
Better in sense they need decades to the nearest star system, those ships serve to transfer troops and they are equipped with stasis pods. And they are easy picking for the Imperial Navy ships. That is great fail compared to their previous fluff.
Where does it state decades other than prior to the War in Heaven? There's no way they conquered the galaxy without FTL. It just wouldn't happen. Plus, even if that were the case they still have the webway. How many times have Eldar fleets and armies shown up out of nowhere? And they have less of a choice of where to show up than the Necrons.
Page 8: "As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow voyaging stasis-ships, dooming them to isolation." And because webway portals are unstable and many times happened that they lose a number of solders they are forced to again use this ships. Witch are damned slow according to this paragraph.
The point is that Mankind can reinforce their losses quickly while Necrons can't. Every time their solder fall and cannot repair he is lost to them forever. And numbers do count, when 1 Necron warrior is fired upon by 100 Guardsman he doesn't have much of a chance against them do he? And those Tomb WOrlds are under contant danger, natural or no. There is very small chance that a great number of them will awoke undamaged.
You missed my point. The Imperium invades a world. It loses millions. They take it. Necrons invade a world, they lose a fraction of that amount. If they don't repair on the field of battle, they repair in a Tomb. If they can't be repaired there, they are broken down into energy and parts...used to build more stuff. And are your worlds not under constant danger? Rebellion, heretics, rogue governors, and every single alien race ever. The Imperium has more worlds and a less efficient way of communicating with them. They can't possibly maintain control over everything to the same degree a similarly sized Necron empire could.
The only worlds they successively captured were low defending worlds and in every battle they outnumbered Humans a lot. Novere in new codex is stated some large military operation, the biggest territory Necrons have is Imotech's little empire of several Tomb Worlds. And it is said that they will fall in the near future because several alien factions will be descending upon iit. And Imperials may don't communicate effectively with their worlds. They still manage to rise large forces to crush enemy resistance. What is millions for the Imperium that have that numbers x 10000 on LOW populated world, their biggest recourse is manpower so they are spending it a lot. My point is, no matter how many solders Imperium lose in the end it still wins it's most important battles without sending it's major military force.
God Emperor.... shall I list alien defeats? I need to type several days to list them all. And all Necron engagements in new fluff are against MINOR Imperial forces. I noticed that in every battle Necrons fought against the Imperium in new codex they outnumber the Humans badly. Then the NEcrons got owned when several Space Marine chapters atack at the same time, destroying the Tomb World without any major losses. In all other losses it was Necron entire military force against 1 Guard Regiment ( usually numbering 8 - 12.000 Men ). If Necron force was to be outnumbered buy Humans they would lose badly every battle because of the sherr firepower they can brought to bare.
Did you miss every other indication? Like the entire Hive World which got wiped, the numerous space marine chapters. Damnos itself had a huge army, and it got wiped ridiculously quickly. With Space Marine help. When did Space Marines ever unite to wip out a tomb world in this Codex. I would like a page number, because I honestly don't remember. And if it takes a bunch of space marine chapters, anybody is dying to that, Necron or no. It's hardly a fair point. On average, the Necrons face down whole Imperial worlds, with millions of guardsmen and PDF, and win. And they regularly whoop Space Marine ass too.
Poor unlighted child, No matter if 1 Hive World get wiped, even if 100 get wiped that is not great loss for them. And Necrons viped out only 1`Space Marine chapter, attacking them in a instant with millions of warriors ( against only 1.000 marines, what a shocker ). Page 57 say that after Orikan the Diviner attacked Silver Sculls and preventing them from helping Helios VI who fell to the Orks he granted his Necrons a new territory. Then Silver Sculls returned with "few palls" and "destroying the Tomb World from whence Orikan's original commission had come." He never spoke of that again to hide his shame of future telling ( he screw up his vision ). I didn't read anywhere about "millions of Guardsman and PDF", only 2-3 Regiments or mostly 1, that got destroyed by entire Necron army's ( Imperial army have thousands of Regiments, not 2-3 ). Like I said, Necrons only win battles because they outnumber their foes on their own turf. If they really faced millions of Guardsman they would be utter dead like every other alien foe.
And yet we have 116 of the rulebook that say: "They know as we know that night approaches and all mortal life shall be extinguished ( The end times ). We know, as they cannot, that there shall be a new dawn and a new day when we will rise and they will be driven into the darkness forever ( the age after the End Times )." This means that they are temporary in bad situation, defending more worlds than they can. And that they will stabilize in some point and punch back again. For now, Imperium is still the largest and the most powerful galactic fighting force, because all others are either disunited or minor threats. As for the end times, as NEcron fluff can change dramatically so it can that fluff. We will just wait 6'th edition and see for ourselves.
True, the fluff might change. But the rulebook is written from an Imperial standpoint. Of course there's going to be propaganda like that in an excerpt from an Imperial file. How will the Imperium recover when the Emperor dies? No more Astronomicon, no more warp travel, no more Imperium. But yes, the fluff might change back to the glory days of the Imperium, but I doubt it. The Imperium's situation has been getting worse with every edition. I can't see that changing.
I see it actually. In every book, novel, comic, video game...they always win + return their worlds with minimal forces in battle. And let's not forget Star Child theory, when Emperor dies he will resurrect again and lead Mnakind in a new Great Crusade, thus dooming every alien force out there. Primarchs will return to fight beside him etc... And I see some parts of non-Imperial codex as propaganda as much as Imperial codex are propaganda, so let's not carry ourselves there.
The bottom line is, new Necrons are weak, weaker then Orks or Nids. They have small territories, incapable of advanced FTL travel witch makes them prior to isolation. They fight among themselves for power and didn't encounter large force to fight against, except for Lazar were they lost an entire Tomb World. They still have their tech, making them dangerious in local level, but on large galactic scale: in termes of power they are just little above Tau now.
I know it's off on a bit of a tangent, and don't want to derail the thread but (having not seen the codex I can't say for certain if it's in there) there is a snippet in WD about the 'Bone Kingdom of Drazak' which is basically an entire tombworld that gets turned into flayed ones, and when the amount of flesh etc on the planet runs low they raid nearby planets for fresh meat and their led by a overlord who is also a flayed one.
Really makes me want to start a flayed-one heavy list, and conversions abound...
Brother Coa wrote:
No. His last order was: "rebuild your dynasties, and restore them to their former glory." He might forgot en that they restored them to glory by crushing other dynasties that rival them. Ups...
You're misreading it. The Necron dynasties (ie, all of them) are to be restored. I will admit the Silent King herp'd by not including a "don't be dicks to each other" clause in their somewhere.
Page 8: "As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow voyaging stasis-ships, dooming them to isolation." And because webway portals are unstable and many times happened that they lose a number of solders they are forced to again use this ships. Witch are damned slow according to this paragraph.
Ah. Bugger. I missed that bit. Nuuuuuuuuu my beloved FTL drives. ; - ;. It still does state that they move a lot faster than the younger races, and again lost Necrons are rarely permanently lost. Though it's the Webway, I'd imagine their teleportation still works.
The only worlds they successively captured were low defending worlds and in every battle they outnumbered Humans a lot. Novere in new codex is stated some large military operation, the biggest territory Necrons have is Imotech's little empire of several Tomb Worlds. And it is said that they will fall in the near future because several alien factions will be descending upon iit. And Imperials may don't communicate effectively with their worlds. They still manage to rise large forces to crush enemy resistance. What is millions for the Imperium that have that numbers x 10000 on LOW populated world, their biggest recourse is manpower so they are spending it a lot. My point is, no matter how many solders Imperium lose in the end it still wins it's most important battles without sending it's major military force.
It's not said it will fall. It's said that Imotekh is about to face them down. It's already established in the canon he's the galaxies greatest strategist (Sorry CREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED), so he should be well capable of handling the situation. Should be interesting though. And there are numerous worlds lost to the Necrons with whole armies to defend them. Your assumption that they are all small worlds is flat out wrong. And it's major military forces is the Imperial Guard. I don't see how they can win their major battles wihtout sending them in. That's just wrong. How'd they win Armageddon? By sending in millions of Guardsmen and hundreds of Space Marines. How'd they (just barely) keep a hold on Cadia? With billions of Guardsmen and thousands of Space Marines. I'll admit, they aren't going to be describing massive Necron defeats in a Necron Codex, but that doesn't mean the Imperium hasn't fought them as hard as possible.
Poor unlighted child, No matter if 1 Hive World get wiped, even if 100 get wiped that is not great loss for them. And Necrons viped out only 1`Space Marine chapter, attacking them in a instant with millions of warriors ( against only 1.000 marines, what a shocker ). Page 57 say that after Orikan the Diviner attacked Silver Sculls and preventing them from helping Helios VI who fell to the Orks he granted his Necrons a new territory. Then Silver Sculls returned with "few palls" and "destroying the Tomb World from whence Orikan's original commission had come." He never spoke of that again to hide his shame of future telling ( he screw up his vision ). I didn't read anywhere about "millions of Guardsman and PDF", only 2-3 Regiments or mostly 1, that got destroyed by entire Necron army's ( Imperial army have thousands of Regiments, not 2-3 ). Like I said, Necrons only win battles because they outnumber their foes on their own turf. If they really faced millions of Guardsman they would be utter dead like every other alien foe.
"millions of Guardsmen and PDF" covers the Hive Worlds taken. I'd quote every time the Imperium is defeated in the Necron Codex when they field substantial forces, but I don't have the Codex with me. "Every other alien foe" does not always die against Guardsmen. Otherwise the Tyranids, Orks, Dark Eldar and Tau wouldn't be alive.
I see it actually. In every book, novel, comic, video game...they always win + return their worlds with minimal forces in battle. And let's not forget Star Child theory, when Emperor dies he will resurrect again and lead Mnakind in a new Great Crusade, thus dooming every alien force out there. Primarchs will return to fight beside him etc... And I see some parts of non-Imperial codex as propaganda as much as Imperial codex are propaganda, so let's not carry ourselves there.
The bottom line is, new Necrons are weak, weaker then Orks or Nids. They have small territories, incapable of advanced FTL travel witch makes them prior to isolation. They fight among themselves for power and didn't encounter large force to fight against, except for Lazar were they lost an entire Tomb World. They still have their tech, making them dangerious in local level, but on large galactic scale: in termes of power they are just little above Tau now.
They are miles above Tau. The Tau control about the same (possibly less) than the sum total of the awoken dynasties, are equally crippled by a lack of Warp Travel (and they don't have the webway) and can't win a war of attrition like the 'crons can. I love the Tau to pieces, I've always hoped I'd have the money for an army of them, but they're probably one of the lowlier threats in the galaxy. They are weaker than Nids, but not Orks. Of course, that's only be virtue of the Orks constantly beating the crap out of each other. If the Orks were to unite, everyone would die. Imperium, Necrons, et al. There's just too many of them. Star Child theory is just that, a Theory. And of course they win every game and novel. They're (supposed to be) the good guys. The good guys always win. But the core component of the whole universe is the slow decline of the Imperium. Humanity is currently losing its overall war of survival, the future theories of a resurrected emperor is irrelevant. They are losing right now. They're still top dog, no question. But for how long?
Brother Coa wrote:
The bottom line is, new Necrons are weak, weaker then Orks or Nids. They have small territories, incapable of advanced FTL travel witch makes them prior to isolation. They fight among themselves for power and didn't encounter large force to fight against, except for Lazar were they lost an entire Tomb World. They still have their tech, making them dangerious in local level, but on large galactic scale: in termes of power they are just little above Tau now.
Well, while I appreciate some of your arguments there, saying that "necrons are weak" is also a bit excessive. They still have the best tech in the galaxy after all (although other races are certainly not as primitive as the necrons might think).
Laodamia wrote:
Well, while I appreciate some of your arguments there, saying that "necrons are weak" is also a bit excessive. They still have the best tech in the galaxy after all (although other races are certainly not as primitive as the necrons might think).
Thank you, while this is true it is also all I stated above true. They are not united, they are outnumbered by almost everybody now ( Tau still don't outnumber them ) and they are spread all across northern part of the galaxy making them easy picking for the younger races. The only thing saving them now is all other races disorganization and small territories they held ( witch makes for perfect defense ). If Imoteck face the same Ork WARGHH Imperials faced on Armageddon he woudl lose because he coudn't kill so many Orks as they would overrun them.
EDIT: on the post above I will only say this: in battle for Armageddon Imperium had "only" 2.600.000 Guardsman in the ENTIRE WAR. Someone dig that up from Armageddon rulebook. No millions of Guardsman there. And Cadia is 3/4 under Chaos Control because all it's army's are somewhere else in the galaxy. Besides 8'th Cadian and 2 more Cadian Regiments there was 24 Regiments of Guard witch is again not millions of Guardsman, perhaps again 2 -3 million. Same as for every other Hive World in the Galaxy, they don't have millions of solders, just small PDF groups to protect them until help arrives.
Laodamia wrote:
Well, while I appreciate some of your arguments there, saying that "necrons are weak" is also a bit excessive. They still have the best tech in the galaxy after all (although other races are certainly not as primitive as the necrons might think).
Thank you, while this is true it is also all I stated above true. They are not united, they are outnumbered by almost everybody now ( Tau still don't outnumber them ) and they are spread all across northern part of the galaxy making them easy picking for the younger races. The only thing saving them now is all other races disorganization and small territories they held ( witch makes for perfect defense ). If Imoteck face the same Ork WARGHH Imperials faced on Armageddon he woudl lose because he coudn't kill so many Orks as they would overrun them.
EDIT: on the post above I will only say this: in battle for Armageddon Imperium had "only" 2.600.000 Guardsman in the ENTIRE WAR. Someone dig that up from Armageddon rulebook. No millions of Guardsman there. And Cadia is 3/4 under Chaos Control because all it's army's are somewhere else in the galaxy. Besides 8'th Cadian and 2 more Cadian Regiments there was 24 Regiments of Guard witch is again not millions of Guardsman, perhaps again 2 -3 million. Same as for every other Hive World in the Galaxy, they don't have millions of solders, just small PDF groups to protect them until help arrives.
Ah, my mistake. Maybe it was older fluff (I skipped 4th edition because of school work and lack of money) in 3rd edition which said that Hive Worlds held whole Guard armies. My IG friend just said the same to me, so I apologise for being wrong about that. And technically, 2.6 million is millions. <__<
But to the point at hand. I'm not trying to argue that the Imperium is weak. Hell naw, they're the most powerful people going overall save perhaps the Tyranids. The problem is most of the threats the face are weaker than them through sheer chance and the Imperium is dying mostly because of its sheer size and the corruption within its leadership. And the Necrons, as they are now, are already a threat and are expanding. They're not top dog, simply because they are still waking up. That's the whole point. You can't write them off. Right now, they're about mid tier just as right now, the Imperium is top tier. The disorganisation and constant warfare between the lesser races is, funnily enough, exactly what is keeping the Imperium alive as well. If they are ignored, however....they will eventually become more powerful than the Imperium and everyone else. Their empire was once larger than the Imperium's after all, and that was at a time when they were fighting the Old Ones.
I'm not boasting about the IoM's strength or anything, but the necrons are not the only ones to have shiny toys. Nor do they have the sharpest teeth IMO.
No offense intended (and I mean it, keep cool ), but your posts almost reek of necron fanboyism. No need to get this lyrical when describing your utter satisfaction of seeing your fav faction crushing all of its opponents in their brand new codex.
It is true that the necrons are shown under a very favorable light in the latest codex, but guess what... every other race is also shown as a group uber-winning badasses in their own codices. Matt Ward (or the ghost writer behind the new cron dex, as some people claim) didn't invent anything.
After reading the nid or the ork codex, I was also under the impression that they would soon be the ultimate masters of the galaxy and that every other faction was doomed to extinction. But after regaining a cool and rational mind, I realized that it was normal for these races to be depicted this way in their own codex.
I think describing the necrons as the "apex predators of the galaxy" or the "tier 1" race in the Universe is a bit overreacting.
Thank you good sir for bringing reason in this thread. Thank the Emperor for that.
Uh....that was an April's fools joke done by GW and Beast of War. Megaliths do not exist in fluff nor on TT.
Actually they do now. I lol'd when I read it. The Megalith is like a city which moves, and Monoliths are its buildings. It seems to be the ultimate invasion device from the little fluff it has in the Codex. It has teleporters to bring in troops, seriously powerful weapons described as swatting Thunderhawks from the sky, and it deploys Monoliths....which then deploy even more troops.
Brother Coa wrote:I don't remember it at all while reading in a codex. Cna you point me to the page?
Nevermind, find it...it is in Conquest of Uttu Prime. And to me it seems to be more of a spaceship than just ordinary war machine.
Perhaps, there's not a lot on it. In one way, it seems to be a more massive version of a Monolith, but in another it could be a warship capable of acting as a war machine. :/
Necrons aren't united at all. The codex clearly states this and each Dynasty acts independently of the others while trying to get an advantage over them at best, and at worse they fight each other (and this is very common). All the Dynasties are working to restore themselves to their former glory, yeah, but that entails fighting the other and civil war is common in Tomb Worlds (just see the Zahndrekh entry). Don't be surprised when Tomb Worlds start allying with "lesser" races to fight another Tomb World.
Hell, even going back as far as the Necrontyr you see that civil war was their #1 problem (the war against the Old Ones was retconned to be an attempt by the Triarch to unify the Necrontyr rather then them being jealous of the Old Ones long lives, a far more stupid/simplistic change imo).
After raping the C'tan from the story and making the Necrons motivated by honor, courage, and "ties of blood", I think the biggest goof was not making them united. Decreased their threat image enormously imo.
I'd be willing to accept all the new fluff if A.) C'tan were still pulling the strings (you could have had them do so while also powering them down on the battlefield or reducing their ability to physically manifest) B.) Necrons weren't so motivated by honor C.) Necrons were united
Since 2nd Edition, every faction's codex has depicted them as the baddest-assest army in the setting, and illustrated that with a list of examples of how they have crushed all their rivals at least once. Frankly, it got boring a long time ago.
Unless the Necrons take-off quite remarkably in sales terms, they will, fluff badassery or not, within month or two, go back to being footnotes for the next few years.
Harriticus wrote:Necrons aren't united at all. The codex clearly states this and each Dynasty acts independently of the others while trying to get an advantage over them at best, and at worse they fight each other (and this is very common). All the Dynasties are working to restore themselves to their former glory, yeah, but that entails fighting the other and civil war is common in Tomb Worlds (just see the Zahndrekh entry). Don't be surprised when Tomb Worlds start allying with "lesser" races to fight another Tomb World.
Hell, even going back as far as the Necrontyr you see that civil war was their #1 problem (the war against the Old Ones was retconned to be an attempt by the Triarch to unify the Necrontyr rather then them being jealous of the Old Ones long lives, a far more stupid/simplistic change imo).
After raping the C'tan from the story and making the Necrons motivated by honor, courage, and "ties of blood", I think the biggest goof was not making them united. Decreased their threat image enormously imo.
I'd be willing to accept all the new fluff if A.) C'tan were still pulling the strings (you could have had them do so while also powering them down on the battlefield or reducing their ability to physically manifest) B.) Necrons weren't so motivated by honor C.) Necrons were united
I agree on a number of points, I do think however that the two best generals fighting under the same banner pretty much ensures a united Necron conquest. Imo and Zahn are pretty much unbeatable generals that can only be countered by random Ork tactics. I'd say that overall the Necrons are a great villain for the current setting.
What I really hope is they are a prelude of villains to come... Hopefully we will see an actual evil Chaos down the road or a more aggressive Tau.
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English Assassin wrote:Since 2nd Edition, every faction's codex has depicted them as the baddest-assest army in the setting, and illustrated that with a list of examples of how they have crushed all their rivals at least once. Frankly, it got boring a long time ago.
Unless the Necrons take-off quite remarkably in sales terms, they will, fluff badassery or not, within month or two, go back to being footnotes for the next few years.
I've almost every dex and none of them do this as much as people think and none as much as Necrons.
The Blood Angel Codex has a bunch of narrow wins, a few defeats, some draws etc. Codex Space Marines also paints a few battles ups and downs. IG was back and forth, Tau was mostly wins that had follow ups in different dexes.
The Necron Codex is simply them beating the s*** out of everyone with ease. Not even GKs got the hot streak of wins like they did.
Uh....that was an April's fools joke done by GW and Beast of War. Megaliths do not exist in fluff nor on TT.
Actually they do now. I lol'd when I read it. The Megalith is like a city which moves, and Monoliths are its buildings. It seems to be the ultimate invasion device from the little fluff it has in the Codex. It has teleporters to bring in troops, seriously powerful weapons described as swatting Thunderhawks from the sky, and it deploys Monoliths....which then deploy even more troops.
Which is paltry when compared to the World Engine, which was destroyed by a battle barge full of Space Marines with Melta Bombs.
Harriticus wrote:Necrons aren't united at all. The codex clearly states this and each Dynasty acts independently of the others while trying to get an advantage over them at best, and at worse they fight each other (and this is very common). All the Dynasties are working to restore themselves to their former glory, yeah, but that entails fighting the other and civil war is common in Tomb Worlds (just see the Zahndrekh entry). Don't be surprised when Tomb Worlds start allying with "lesser" races to fight another Tomb World.
The Zahndrekh entry isn't him fighting actual rebels. He's fighting orks. He just thinks he's fighting the wars of succession, and so he sees everyone as Necrontyr he's fighting against.
Brother Coa wrote:Page 8: "As a race bereft of psykers, the Necrons are incapable of Warp travel, and without access to the webway, they would be forced to rely once more on slow voyaging stasis-ships, dooming them to isolation." And because webway portals are unstable and many times happened that they lose a number of solders they are forced to again use this ships. Witch are damned slow according to this paragraph.
Unfortunately someone now needs to tell the Tau that since they don't have psykers, they're going to have to start using the webway to get around too. At this point with the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Harlequins, and soon, the Tau running around in there, it must be getting pretty crowded. There's also a gaping plot whole involving the World Engine, and just how it managed to trundle around nuking planets.
Removing the Necron's realspace FTL capability was a mistake. Sub-light speeds are stupid slow, even for intra-system travel, much less for travel between star systems.
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Dytalus wrote:
Harriticus wrote:Necrons aren't united at all. The codex clearly states this and each Dynasty acts independently of the others while trying to get an advantage over them at best, and at worse they fight each other (and this is very common). All the Dynasties are working to restore themselves to their former glory, yeah, but that entails fighting the other and civil war is common in Tomb Worlds (just see the Zahndrekh entry). Don't be surprised when Tomb Worlds start allying with "lesser" races to fight another Tomb World.
The Zahndrekh entry isn't him fighting actual rebels. He's fighting orks. He just thinks he's fighting the wars of succession, and so he sees everyone as Necrontyr he's fighting against.
That is some pretty funny fluff. "I'm not sure why they're painted green and yelling, but we'll give those rebels the old what for."
The Necron special characters are basically the opposite of the ones in the GK book. The Necrons each have individual motivations and personality quirks (or just flat out mental illnesses). The GK guys were simply an additional layer of hyperbole slathered on top of a chapter that had already been dialed up to eleven.
Yeah, no FTL drive = no threat. They just can't do anything offensively to other races anymore. They can bust into the Webway, sure, but it tries to close itself off to them. Not to mention the Dolmen gates are unstable. Although, when Helbrecht attacked Imotekh's fleet, how did Imotekh "make his escape" on an escort vessel if they have no FTL? I think this is an issue of one writer taking over for another writer and had different orders from GW to make Necrons less of a threat than Chaos for 6th edition. Essentially, the inertialess drive was too good, so they took it away. Well, I guess they forgot to mention that they have some sort of FTL drive and don't just use the Webway, otherwise they would never get to very many places and would never be a large threat.
Unless of course, this was all just a money grab and GW doesn't really care if Necrons are a threat or not. Either way, this is all very silly and a tad depressing.
Harriticus wrote:Necrons aren't united at all. The codex clearly states this and each Dynasty acts independently of the others while trying to get an advantage over them at best, and at worse they fight each other (and this is very common). All the Dynasties are working to restore themselves to their former glory, yeah, but that entails fighting the other and civil war is common in Tomb Worlds (just see the Zahndrekh entry). Don't be surprised when Tomb Worlds start allying with "lesser" races to fight another Tomb World.
The Zahndrekh entry isn't him fighting actual rebels. He's fighting orks. He just thinks he's fighting the wars of succession, and so he sees everyone as Necrontyr he's fighting against.
I actually meant Imotekh, sorry. His entry states that when he awoke Mandragora was torn apart by civil war between Necron Lords.
Unfortunately someone now needs to tell the Tau that since they don't have psykers, they're going to have to start using the webway to get around too. At this point with the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Necrons, Harlequins, and soon, the Tau running around in there, it must be getting pretty crowded.
You forgot the Demons who like to pour into that webway wherever they can...
SoulGazer wrote: I think this is an issue of one writer taking over for another writer and had different orders from GW to make Necrons less of a threat than Chaos for 6th edition. Essentially, the inertialess drive was too good, so they took it away.
Thought that too.
Fluff in 5th is sometimes stretched across several codices and is most likely consistent, whilst other small blurbs and details one would love to know are done without care.
English Assassin wrote:Since 2nd Edition, every faction's codex has depicted them as the baddest-assest army in the setting, and illustrated that with a list of examples of how they have crushed all their rivals at least once. Frankly, it got boring a long time ago.
Unless the Necrons take-off quite remarkably in sales terms, they will, fluff badassery or not, within month or two, go back to being footnotes for the next few years.
I've almost every dex and none of them do this as much as people think and none as much as Necrons.
The Blood Angel Codex has a bunch of narrow wins, a few defeats, some draws etc. Codex Space Marines also paints a few battles ups and downs. IG was back and forth, Tau was mostly wins that had follow ups in different dexes.
The Necron Codex is simply them beating the s*** out of everyone with ease. Not even GKs got the hot streak of wins like they did.
That's not strictly accurate, I've just flicked through the various Space Marine codices and counted only a handful of outright defeats, all of which are there to build the tragic, grimdark atmosphere which has proven so popular. I can't comment on the Guard, but I would be disappointed if the codex didn't contain tales of futile battles and massive casualties; they're a significant part of what the Imperial Guard are about.
Nonetheless, since I haven't read the Necron codex, I'll cheerfully take you word that its fluff is more hyperbolic than is customary, but given how important the occasional disaster is to building and maintaining characterisation and mood, I would think it rather counter-productive for Games Workshop to have intentionally transformed the Necrons into unbeatable, unstoppable Mary-Sues in the name of making them supposedly 'more characterful'. That they have (or appear to have) done so, suggests to me only that they are desperate to increase the appeal of their hitherto-unpopular space undead.
In any case, I very much doubt that it implies anything for the Warhammer 40,000 universe as a whole, and would wager that the Necrons will return to their neglected state by the time 6th Edition is launched.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:It's not even a contest anymore, they have a galaxy map that can make any star they desire go super nova.
This is one of the few things I don't like in new fluff ( this one in particular ). They gave them to much power, in fact they gave them so much power that it is pointless fighting against this particular dynasty. Tau a problem? Blow up 13 suns and problem solved. Tyranids a problem? Blow up 100 Stars and problem solved. Imperium a problem? Blow up 1.000.000+ suns and problem solved.
Good they add that this Dynasty is never going to use the machine and that they fight even Necrons to deny any access of it.
Actually, if the Imperium is a problem, you only have to blow up the Sol system, as that would extinguish the Astronomicon, and effectively change the Imperium from an empire of a billion worlds, to a billion one-world empires. The Imperium is so dependent on the Astronomicon for communication and travel that removing it also removes humanity as any sort of credible threat.
If you buy into the Star Child theory, then this would turn out differently, but hasn't the Star Child theory been practically "Squatted"?
Also, Necron space superiority was always a given when the numbers of vessels involved were close to even, and they only started to suffer losses (i.e. destroyed ships) when the numbers were drastically against them. Their vessels were faster, more maneuverable, more heavily armed (they had weapons that could bypass Void Shields and Holofields), and way, way tougher than anything the other races have. Their Inertialess Drives gave them FTL capability that the other races could not duplicate (or track). Did they really change all that so drastically?
Dytalus wrote:Necron ships were always squishy, mainly due to the Imperium's love affair with stupidly big guns (nothing screams , DIE YOU BASTID like a gun with a barrel the size of your car). Their power came from how difficult they were to target and the fact that their weapons were far, far better than Imperial weapons. If a Tomb Ship was ambushed, I don't doubt a Battle Barge (one of the most powerful ships in the Imperium) would be capable of bringing its shields down.
This is frankly not true by any stretch of the word.
Necron ships are the most durable in the setting, their incredible durability is repeatedly emphasized in the old codex and BFG, at least.
Their only real flaw was that there was so damn few Necron ships in any Naval battle. In most other regards though, they dominated the space scene.
English Assassin wrote:Nonetheless, since I haven't read the Necron codex, I'll cheerfully take you word that its fluff is more hyperbolic than is customary, but given how important the occasional disaster is to building and maintaining characterisation and mood, I would think it rather counter-productive for Games Workshop to have intentionally transformed the Necrons into unbeatable, unstoppable Mary-Sues in the name of making them supposedly 'more characterful'. That they have (or appear to have) done so, suggests to me only that they are desperate to increase the appeal of their hitherto-unpopular space undead.
Don't worry about beef. I actually think the codex is well done and well written. I'm not so sure about the fluff turns they've taken and some of the retcons but the codex itself isn't just a huge block of fluff about how necrons are unstoppable. Far from it. There are defeats in their codex. Ignore the trolls that are trying to convince people otherwise.
On another note...
It never says necrons have no FTL travel outside of the webway. The story kind of suggested to me that they only built those gates in order to take the fight to Old Ones just hiding in the webway and hoping the don't get caught. I think the Necrons obviously must still have some sort of FTL travel outside of the webway, thus Inertialess Drives.
BrainDeleted wrote:Don't worry about beef. I actually think the codex is well done and well written. I'm not so sure about the fluff turns they've taken and some of the retcons but the codex itself isn't just a huge block of fluff about how necrons are unstoppable. Far from it. There are defeats in their codex. Ignore the trolls that are trying to convince people otherwise.
On another note...
It never says necrons have no FTL travel outside of the webway. The story kind of suggested to me that they only built those gates in order to take the fight to Old Ones just hiding in the webway and hoping the don't get caught. I think the Necrons obviously must still have some sort of FTL travel outside of the webway, thus Inertialess Drives.
What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?
Uh, only the codex actually states that without the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons would be fethed and unable to travel the galaxy.
BrainDeleted wrote:Don't worry about beef. I actually think the codex is well done and well written. I'm not so sure about the fluff turns they've taken and some of the retcons but the codex itself isn't just a huge block of fluff about how necrons are unstoppable. Far from it. There are defeats in their codex. Ignore the trolls that are trying to convince people otherwise.
On another note...
It never says necrons have no FTL travel outside of the webway. The story kind of suggested to me that they only built those gates in order to take the fight to Old Ones just hiding in the webway and hoping the don't get caught. I think the Necrons obviously must still have some sort of FTL travel outside of the webway, thus Inertialess Drives.
What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?
Uh, only the codex actually states that without the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons would be fethed and unable to travel the galaxy.
Haha NO! No No No NO!
That isn't right at all. I could understand the web way being breached as a tactical maneuver to rob the old ones of their superior maneuverability, but as the SOLE way of transportation?
Now that pretty ing bull . They are necrons dammit. They shouldn't have to use the warp.
Well, at least the codex pointed out that they had no psykers and needed to force their way into the webway. That takes some of the sting off...but not enough
Void__Dragon wrote:What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?
Uh, only the codex actually states that without the Dolmen Gates, the Necrons would be fethed and unable to travel the galaxy.
OK.
1) The Lazar Blockade - A tomb world is destroyed by the Silver Skulls. Actually, the codex says "obliterated"
2) The Dissolution of Burr - Fire Lords destroy a Necron Overlord on Burr.
3) The End of WAAAGH! 'Eadcrumpa - The newly awakened tomb world of Suranas is no match for the Orks so they give them some big guns in order to survive. (Yes, this kills the orks later but only because the orks break the guns open. Hardly can be claimed as a victory for the 'crons. It's just a result of ork hilarity.)
That's just skimming the little timeline thing, I don't have time to read through anything else.
Imotekh is hardly undefeated...It says no matter how hard he tries, he can't beat orks. Or rarely can. Also, he lost his flag ship to a BT ambush. Losing your flagship in anything other than a major battle (Usually after it's fought heroically already) is what we call a humiliating failure.
1) The Lazar Blockade - A tomb world is destroyed by the Silver Skulls. Actually, the codex says "obliterated"
2) The Dissolution of Burr - Fire Lords destroy a Necron Overlord on Burr.
3) The End of WAAAGH! 'Eadcrumpa - The newly awakened tomb world of Suranas is no match for the Orks so they give them some big guns in order to survive. (Yes, this kills the orks later but only because the orks break the guns open. Hardly can be claimed as a victory for the 'crons. It's just a result of ork hilarity.)
That's just skimming the little timeline thing, I don't have time to read through anything else.
Imotekh is hardly undefeated...It says no matter how hard he tries, he can't beat orks. Or rarely can. Also, he lost his flag ship to a BT ambush. Losing your flagship in anything other than a major battle (Usually after it's fought heroically already) is what we call a humiliating failure.
1. They destroyed a Tomb World, only to then be trapped and forced into a gruelling campaign for their haste.
2. True, but the Imperials still lost two planets to the Necrons.
3. That's not really a loss. Considering it means that their anti-tank weaponry does in fact have enough energy to obliterate entire planets. It's a Necron Overlord being savvy and intelligent enough to avoid a battle he isn't ready for, and then an extreme showcase of the power of Necron technology.
Uh, it certainly does not say that. He can't win "lasting victories," but he has never been defeated by them. Though you are right, he is not described as undefeated in general, just having yet to be defeated by Helbrecht.
It certainly doesn't say he's undefeated to orks. If he was undefeated, then he'd win a lasting victory...Be wiping the floor with them every time he saw them. Not winning a lasting victory = Losing battles.
BrainDeleted wrote:It certainly doesn't say he's undefeated to orks. If he was undefeated, then he'd win a lasting victory...Be wiping the floor with them every time he saw them. Not winning a lasting victory = Losing battles.
Oh, I guess the orks instantly coalesce back into existence as soon as he is done smearing them into a bloody pulp? Or he's a complete idiot and doesn't know how to get rid of their spores?
If he won every battle he fought against the orks, he would win a lasting victory against them....Since the orks would never be able to take back what he won from them. Therefor it is a lasting victory...Ugh, do I really have to argue this with you?
...He's just lost battles to their unpredictable and chaotic style of combat, the opposite of his logical method of warfare. That's what it reads as...arguing otherwise is foolish...At least IMO. I understand your rage against the codex as a Necron veteran but please don't make a silly argument out of bitterness.
BrainDeleted wrote:Oh, I guess the orks instantly coalesce back into existence as soon as he is done smearing them into a bloody pulp? Or he's a complete idiot and doesn't know how to get rid of their spores?
If he won every battle he fought against the orks, he would win a lasting victory against them....Since the orks would never be able to take back what he won from them. Therefor it is a lasting victory...Ugh, do I really have to argue this with you?
...He's just lost battles to their unpredictable and chaotic style of combat, the opposite of his logical method of warfare. That's what it reads as...arguing otherwise is foolish...At least IMO. I understand your rage against the codex as a Necron veteran but please don't make a silly argument out of bitterness.
Rage? I am perfectly calm. As a matter of fact, I'm actually almost fond of Imotekh, him being in concept at least how I'd imagine your typical Deceiver-aligned Necron Lord would act, though his name is all kinds of lame.
That said, I'm not sure what or why I was arguing before, so I'll concede that he's probably lost if nothing else battles against the Orks, and obviously has more trouble against them than anyone else.
I'm not really entirely convinced that they are as invincible as Beef says, mind you. I do think the Celestial Orrery is completely ridiculous though, a faction with technology that ludicrously powerful shouldn't be able to be threatened by the Imperium, or anyone else.
Void__Dragon wrote:
What losses are in the codex? Other than a few vague comments about the Orks giving Imotekh some trouble (Not enough to make him described as undefeated mind you) and the Black Templars destroying Imotekh's flagship, what losses are really there?
Silvers Sculls with help from 4 Space Marine chapters destroy an entire Tomb World. Lazar system I think it was called.
Void__Dragon wrote:
The Celestial Orrery? That's the most ridiculous thing in the codex. It means that at any given time, if all else fails, the Necrons need just press a button and all of the sudden Terra has been destroyed, enveloped by the sun going supernova. That's beyond ridiculous. I find it incredibly ironic as well, considering that most of the bitching concerning the Necrons when they were released is that they were seen as too powerful and unstoppable. Now they can destroy Terra with the press of a button. But that's not overpowered at all, lol...
Calm down.
If you read the description properly, it says that it makes the star go critical before it's time, not immediately. The Sun has another few million years worth of existence, so even if the Orrery halved that to 2 million years, that is still 5 times longer than the IoM has been in existence. Again, for the Necrons, 2My is no big deal, but remember, they want people alive to experiment on them to see if they make acceptable hosts...
Sol is actually good for another five billion years before it goes red giant, though in about a billion years it will heat up enough to make Earth unlivable. It also doesn't have enough mass to go supernova.
On the subject of the magic galaxy map, there's no point in making a weapon that destroys your enemies in two million years. If you want them dead so badly that you're willing to use that weapon, and deal with the side effects and cleanup, then you probably want them dead now, not a million years from now.
Necrons do have FTL it says at the start of the codex says they used torch ships. The only reason the old ones where winning is due to Webway is faster then FTL travel, If your using FTL you can't go in a straight line to the location you want to go to as there will be planets / stars in the way. With the webway being on a different plane that was not a problem.
iproxtaco wrote:The Webway is faster than faster than light? Ok then.
Even faster then light you have to follow physics, gravity, things in the way etc. The web way can be moved, reshaped and follows less laws of physics. Ofc Webway will be faster. Also they used Webway to beat the Old ones, if they could beaten them with FTL they would of no?
Well, sort of? The problem is that the old ones could just sort of camp out in the webway if things went badly for them in real space. That's why you have to penetrate the webway to beat them. It's not because of the webway being faster than them.
daveNYC wrote:On the subject of the magic galaxy map, there's no point in making a weapon that destroys your enemies in two million years. If you want them dead so badly that you're willing to use that weapon, and deal with the side effects and cleanup, then you probably want them dead now, not a million years from now.
While true, there's no telling if the Necrons actually have the technology to instantly destroy stars. All we know is that the Celestial Orrery can make stars go supernova millenia before they should.
Bassline wrote:Also they used Webway to beat the Old ones, if they could beaten them with FTL they would of no?
If I recall correctly, they managed to enter the Webway towards the end of the war, which suggests that they were winning the war prior to the Dolmen Gates (and as such, they almost certainly were able to move faster-than-light.)
What? If they had FTL travel, then why does it say under the paragraph on Dolmen Gates that without the webway, they are forced to rely on slow voyaging stasis ships.
Because Mat Ward had one of his idiot fits and wrote down something really, really stupid. It's a big middle finger to Battlefleet Gothic or anything it has released on the Necrons. Personally, it's a bit of fluff I'm ignoring. Necrons still have Inertialess FTL.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:What? If they had FTL travel, then why does it say under the paragraph on Dolmen Gates that without the webway, they are forced to rely on slow voyaging stasis ships.
1. Fans are making up the rules of the Galaxy Map. Lulz @ that. On the subject of it blowing stars it is never mentioned that they have ANY limitations on the device. If they want a star gone, they wipe it out on the map and it explodes in real time millions of years before it should.
2. The Necrons have FTL aka the World Engine, Imotehk escaping Helbrechts ambush, Winning a war against a race that had the Webway, and Ana traveling numerous Tomb worlds across the galaxy in the span of the 41st. None of which would be possible unless they had a competitive means of FTL travel. In the case of the Tau, the Codex addresses slower FTL travel, in this case, fans are looking too much into it.
Codex: Necrons wrote:Such an act cannot be performed without consideration, however, as each star destroyed in this fashion upsets the fundamental forces of the galaxy, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction.
Limitation.
Also, it doesn't say in real time. Just says "long millennia before its destined time "
iproxtaco wrote:Because Mat Ward had one of his idiot fits and wrote down something really, really stupid. It's a big middle finger to Battlefleet Gothic or anything it has released on the Necrons. Personally, it's a bit of fluff that crushed me. Necrons don't have Inertialess FTL anymore.
This is so true
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BrainDeleted wrote:
BrainDeleted wrote:
Codex: Necrons wrote:Such an act cannot be performed without consideration, however, as each star destroyed in this fashion upsets the fundamental forces of the galaxy, setting off a catastrophic chain reaction.
Limitation.
In short: they destroy a star intentionally and gravity, dark matter and dark energy do wonderful things to the galaxy.
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BeefCakeSoup wrote:
2. The Necrons have FTL aka the World Engine, Imotehk escaping Helbrechts ambush, Winning a war against a race that had the Webway, and Ana traveling numerous Tomb worlds across the galaxy in the span of the 41st. None of which would be possible unless they had a competitive means of FTL travel. In the case of the Tau, the Codex addresses slower FTL travel, in this case, fans are looking too much into it.
They have FTL, but a very primitive one, possibly only 2x maybe 3x faster then light. If you saw carefully Imotehk traveled decayed's from tomb world to tomb world. They still ned a lot of time to travel between two worlds while Imperials do that in several minutes.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
2. The Necrons have FTL aka the World Engine, Imotehk escaping Helbrechts ambush, Winning a war against a race that had the Webway, and Ana traveling numerous Tomb worlds across the galaxy in the span of the 41st. None of which would be possible unless they had a competitive means of FTL travel. In the case of the Tau, the Codex addresses slower FTL travel, in this case, fans are looking too much into it.
They have FTL, but a very primitive one, possibly only 2x maybe 3x faster then light. If you saw carefully Imotehk traveled decayed's from tomb world to tomb world. They still ned a lot of time to travel between two worlds while Imperials do that in several minutes.
Primitive? It's more advanced than what the Imperium has, since they rely completely on the erratic universe of the Warp and require a Navigator AND the Astronomicon to be able to do it. 2 times as fast as the speed of light still wouldn't make them able to take over the Galaxy like they did.
Oh, and Imperials don't do it in several minutes. It takes anything from several days to better part of a year to travel from point to point. Necrons? Webway, or Inertialess Drives.
If you read the description properly, it says that it makes the star go critical before it's time, not immediately. The Sun has another few million years worth of existence, so even if the Orrery halved that to 2 million years, that is still 5 times longer than the IoM has been in existence. Again, for the Necrons, 2My is no big deal, but remember, they want people alive to experiment on them to see if they make acceptable hosts...
Sadly the notion that it takes time for a star to supernova when using the Celestial Orrery and the notion that it happens right away has about the same amount of basis: Which is to say admittedly not much. A vague timeframe is given, which is to say millenia before its time, but that could be a few million years before or immediately. So while it could take time to occur, it could easily be instantaneous.
You'd know I was aware of this if you didn't pick out a small part of one of my posts and actually read my subsequent posts.
Personally I don't see the use of a weapon that requires millions of years to start working. Patient the Necrons may be, but the younger races are not, and won't just sit around with their thumbs up their ass until the planet supernovas. If the Imperium for instance is set to go boom in the next few million years due to the Celestial Orrery, for all the Necrons know in a million years they could have the means to protect against it, move Terra the feth out of the way, or whatever.
Also, Coa, are you referring to the Inertialess Drives as slow FTL, or the Torch Ships?
Doesn't matter though. Necrons will always have Inertialess Drives in my mind. Dolmen Gates exist solely for the purpose of doing raids in the Webway.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:What? If they had FTL travel, then why does it say under the paragraph on Dolmen Gates that without the webway, they are forced to rely on slow voyaging stasis ships.
Because it can be faster-than-light and still be slow compared to the Webway (which is what, nearly instantaneous? Nearly everything is going to be slow compared to that.)
The only other reasoning that I can see is that if the Necrons manage to reach a world, they can still teleport their forces there. Essentially, slow to expand, but incredibly difficult to dislodge once they do so due to instant reinforcements, and it makes it easy to use that base to expand further. Is it said whether or not they can teleport ships? Judging by the Grey Knight Necron world thing I say yes, but I'm wondering if there's any definitive statement on the matter?
Well, you have to consider there are a lot of Necron Empires.
Imotekh's Empire, consisting of IIRC 80 Tomb Worlds, and give times that with the populations forced to pay tribue and falling under his rule, is already larger than the Tau Empire. He has accomplished this in two hundred years.
Brother Coa wrote:Thus making the Necrons local threat only, not galactic.
And that sucks, it also makes Imperium chances for survival even higher.
Of course it makes them galactic? Or are the Eldar/Dark Eldar suddenly unable to go wherever they want as well?
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.
We're certainly not a major concern now, but that was never the case. It's always been the case that the current Necron threat in the immediate future is small. But in the eventual future (read, a few hundred years or so) they are a massive threat.
Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.
"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8
No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.
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Void__Dragon wrote:Well, you have to consider there are a lot of Necron Empires.
Imotekh's Empire, consisting of IIRC 80 Tomb Worlds, and give times that with the populations forced to pay tribue and falling under his rule, is already larger than the Tau Empire. He has accomplished this in two hundred years.
True and true, however every empire is fighting anong themselves as much as alien intruders. Necrons are only threat when united, and the only one who had the power to unite them was Silent King who returned but seems it has a trouble uniting them again. The codex also states that Imotehk's Empire is doomed in the near future since it will be attacked in the same time by 5 different factions. ( one of them are Ultramrines, I smell War connection here ).
Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.
"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8
No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.
Page 17, "These tomb worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy."
I'm also going to have to ask for evidence of the Necrontyr empire being in the North. Imotekh certainly is in the East of the galaxy.
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Void__Dragon wrote:Well, you have to consider there are a lot of Necron Empires.
Imotekh's Empire, consisting of IIRC 80 Tomb Worlds, and give times that with the populations forced to pay tribue and falling under his rule, is already larger than the Tau Empire. He has accomplished this in two hundred years.
True and true, however every empire is fighting anong themselves as much as alien intruders. Necrons are only threat when united, and the only one who had the power to unite them was Silent King who returned but seems it has a trouble uniting them again. The codex also states that Imotehk's Empire is doomed in the near future since it will be attacked in the same time by 5 different factions. ( one of them are Ultramrines, I smell War connection here ).
It doesn't state it's doomed. It states that it will be tested. Two totally different things. Granted, it's going to be a tough test, but Imotekh as 80 Necron worlds at his disposal, and 400 lesser worlds offering tribute. That's a huge amount at his disposal. Unless the Tau, Eldar and Ultramarines suddenly stop beating up each other, Imotekh won't have to face all 3 at once. 4 if you include the Tyranids coming up behind the Iyanden Eldar craftworld, but they definitely would focus on the others more than the Necrons. More stuff to eat.
Imotekh's done very well for himself so far. That can't be denied. I can see him being slowed, but not destroyed in the future. Not easily anyway. He's been able to manipulate the Tyranids into attacking fleshy things before, he can do it again. The Ultramarines...okay yeah, they'll be tough. But they have other problems too beyond just Imotekh. And the Tau (IIRC, I only have the 3rd ed Codex) are busy consolidating their hold on the most recent sphere expansion so won't be poking at Imotekh for a while.
Void__Dragon wrote:The codex directly states that without the Dolmen Gates the Necrons would have to use the slow-voyaging stasis ships.
The Inertialess Drives are gone.
Yes, but "slow-voyaging" is not elaborated on. It could be comparatively slowly (well, it always is, but we don't know how comparatively slowly they are).
Ugh the quote doesn't even make sense. Why would the current Necrons ever use statis ships again? They're metal! They don't need stasis to keep from getting old and decaying!
I'm not buying the idea of an interstellar empire (much less an interstellar WAR) built on relativistic speeds and sub-light space travel. The Necrons and the Necrontyr before them MUST have had some sort of FTL technology other than Webway access. Come on, the War in Heaven would have been over before the first shot was fired or, if the Old Ones and their allies didn't have FTL either, would have dragged on well into the 41st millenium!.
If the writers wanted to make the Necrons a more local threat there was no need to remove the highly advanced Inertialess Drive. It could still be a trait of Necron ships while in 'real space', just not an universal 'instant teleport' thing. But still they must have some sort of FTL other than Dolmen Gates and the Webway. Even the non-psychic Tau have one!.
Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.
"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8
No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.
Page 17, "These tomb worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy."
Throne of Terra, this codex contradict itself.
It can't say "There are thousands of Tomb Worlds in the galaxy", and then to say "there are millions of Tomb Wolrd in the galaxy" some 9 pages later.
I see that some of those that write the fluff didn't consolidate at all.
I do not believe either of this info until someone from GW tell how much exactly Tomb World Necrons have.
I'm also going to have to ask for evidence of the Necrontyr empire being in the North. Imotekh certainly is in the East of the galaxy.
See: Atun Dynasty, their tomb worlds are at the northern galactic rime. That's the birthplace of Necrontyr according to codex, it would be logical to assume that most of the Dynasties are located around it with others being at various places in galaxy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: All in all....it seems that I will need to make a new one brothers and sisters:
Dytalus wrote:
Not to mention the Tomb Worlds are all over the place, they aren't focused in one area of the Galaxy. There's millions of them everywhere.
"There are thousands of Tomb Worlds scattered trough the galaxy whose halls are thronged with shambling automatons." Necron Codex 5'th edition, page 8
No million anywhere. And if the codex is to be believed most of Tomb Worlds are stationed at Galactic North were was original Necrontyr empire stationed.
Page 17, "These tomb worlds represent no more than a handful of the many millions spread throughout the galaxy."
Throne of Terra, this codex contradict itself.
It can't say "There are thousands of Tomb Worlds in the galaxy", and then to say "there are millions of Tomb Wolrd in the galaxy" some 9 pages later.
I see that some of those that write the fluff didn't consolidate at all.
I do not believe either of this info until someone from GW tell how much exactly Tomb World Necrons have.
Saying there are millions does not contradict there being thousands. Given that a thousand thousand is a million (in Europe, anyway. I'm aware in some places in the world a million is ten thousand....which is weird to me). Similarly, there are cases where the fluff uses the word "thousands" to describe how many worlds the Imperium commands, but nobody would argue it controls less than at least a million.
I'd imagine the number of sleeping Tombs is about equivalent to the number of worlds currently owned by the Imperium. Both the Necrontyr and the Imperium were galaxy spanning, and the War in Heaven was described as reaching every corner of the galaxy.
Brother Coa wrote:Throne of Terra, this codex contradict itself.
It can't say "There are thousands of Tomb Worlds in the galaxy", and then to say "there are millions of Tomb Wolrd in the galaxy" some 9 pages later.
I see that some of those that write the fluff didn't consolidate at all.
I do not believe either of this info until someone from GW tell how much exactly Tomb World Necrons have.
Context is all.
The "thousands of Tomb Worlds" example is referring to a specific kind of Tomb World, worlds where every Necron inside has been rendered mindless necessitating the Tomb World exerting control of all Necrons directly, referred to as Severed Worlds.
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:Yes, but "slow-voyaging" is not elaborated on. It could be comparatively slowly (well, it always is, but we don't know how comparatively slowly they are).
Inertialess Drives were never comparitively slow. They were the most efficient and among the fastest FTL methods in the galaxy, rivaling the Webway in sheer speed and surpassing it in reliability.
Now their non-Dolmen Gates travel is garbage.
Inertialess Drives are gone, for no reason other than someone in the Dev-team being a moron.
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Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?
Is this to me?
You skimmed the actual passage and misinterpreted what it was saying.
Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?
Is 1,000,000 greater than 1,000? Then it falls into the 1,000+ category. Ergo, something over 1,000,000 is also over 1,000.
No, that doesn't work that.
1.000+ may only go to 1 million, not more ( logically because there is no more thousands, then millions ), 1.000.000+ can go to billion, not more.
So when I say thousands I might go only to 1.000.000+ ( 50.000, 500.000, 999.999 ), I can't say there are thousand planets in galaxy when there is billions of them .
So your theory falls into water
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Void__Dragon wrote:
The "thousands of Tomb Worlds" example is referring to a specific kind of Tomb World, worlds where every Necron inside has been rendered mindless necessitating the Tomb World exerting control of all Necrons directly, referred to as Severed Worlds.
The contradiction exists only in your mind.
I read it again, carefully. I saw the word "mindless automatons", you were right.
At least we still have MILLIONS of Imperial Guard Regiments
And we orkses got billions upon billions uv orkses
Da Tin 'eads probly does 'ave a buncha spare tin'ead ladz too, wiv millions uv worlds..
Yer point?
*unorks with a pop*
Necrons are a galactic threat, but no longer an organised one . They are now too fragmented to affect the whole galaxy on a single purpose, which isn't to say that they couldn't be reunited eventually, or come up with a purpose that most Tomb Worlds would sign on to.
Pity. I didn't have high hopes for the necron fluff in the new dex, but they REALLY took a shafting, fluffwise.
*edit for spelling errors, expansion and orkmoticons..*
I'm not a fan of what i have heard of this new fluff. The old necrons had plenty of character as is and the whole re write of their fluf is a major letdown. maybe someday i will read the new dex, but now that the soulless, relentless machines out to harvest the galaxy are gone, it seems mmm pointless. I mean making deals with people. trading. harumph.
Ascalam wrote:And we orkses got billions upon billions uv orkses
Da Tin 'eads probly does 'ave a buncha spare tin'ead ladz too, wiv millions uv worlds..
Yer point?
My point is with billion upon billions of Orks, Humans, Tyranids Necrons will have a great time trying to take over galaxy again.
Especially disorganized and separated.
Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?
If you read the fluff carefully, you will see that the 1000 worlds are tombworlds where the necrons are just automatons, an error within the tombworld where only programming lives ( so you can play the old necrons.). so no necron lords with there own agenda, just simply murder everything we come into contact with.
those 1000 worlds are just a part of the millions of worlds the necrons have.
Overall I prefer the Necrons to have millions vs thousands of Tomb Worlds. That way people can stop whining how they've been nerfed into a localized threat. Even splintered into countless dynasties, a million tomb worlds is nothing to sneeze at.
Had a chance to look through it and yeah it's ok - looks as if the Enslavers are still there, if not mentioned, but seemed to do the Old Ones in rather than the Necrons .
The Eldar now see being soulless as the greatest threat rather than having their souls eaten, not sure about that but ok.
I guess we'll see more stories of Hive Worlds being wiped out as more and more Necron Tombworlds awaken as there must be so many planets that the Imperium now share with the Necrontyr.
Pilau Rice wrote:Had a chance to look through it and yeah it's ok - looks as if the Enslavers are still there, if not mentioned, but seemed to do the Old Ones in rather than the Necrons .
They are, Trazyn have one Enslaver in his collection.
One more thing I am having against the new Necrons is Trazyn fluff. More specifically: giant man wearing baroque Power Armour.
Almost all are convince that he has a Primarch in his possession.
Pilau Rice wrote:Had a chance to look through it and yeah it's ok - looks as if the Enslavers are still there, if not mentioned, but seemed to do the Old Ones in rather than the Necrons .
They are, Trazyn have one Enslaver in his collection.
One more thing I am having against the new Necrons is Trazyn fluff. More specifically: giant man wearing baroque Power Armour.
Almost all are convince that he has a Primarch in his possession.
I mean in reference to the Enslaver Plague, seems that it wasn't what drove the C'tan to hibernation but was the nail in the coffin for the Old Ones.
Yeah, I've heard this but I am not. Could be a Heresy Veteran or an Inquisitor, could even be a Grey Knight or a Custodian. He's somehow got the head of Sebastian Thor in a jar.
Pilau Rice wrote:The Eldar now see being soulless as the greatest threat rather than having their souls eaten, not sure about that but ok.
I can see it working alongside the old fear of being eaten. For an Eldar, being soulless completely destroys them as who they are. Everything they do relies on their psychic ability in some way. On the other hand, for those with souls, having those souls eaten sucks the most... I dunno. The explanation works in my head.
Brother Coa wrote:
Dytalus wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:How can 1.000+ be same as 1.000.000+?
Is 1,000,000 greater than 1,000? Then it falls into the 1,000+ category. Ergo, something over 1,000,000 is also over 1,000.
No, that doesn't work that.
1.000+ may only go to 1 million, not more ( logically because there is no more thousands, then millions ), 1.000.000+ can go to billion, not more.
So when I say thousands I might go only to 1.000.000+ ( 50.000, 500.000, 999.999 ), I can't say there are thousand planets in galaxy when there is billions of them .
So your theory falls into water
The number 1,300,000 would like to have a word with you.
Pilau Rice wrote:The Eldar now see being soulless as the greatest threat rather than having their souls eaten, not sure about that but ok.
I can see it working alongside the old fear of being eaten. For an Eldar, being soulless completely destroys them as who they are. Everything they do relies on their psychic ability in some way. On the other hand, for those with souls, having those souls eaten sucks the most... I dunno. The explanation works in my head
My reasoning is that you are scared of something that has no soul, that might not do anything to you, rather than have your own soul actually eaten.
Say you are an Eldar, you might never encounter a Necron. But if you fall over a bit of Wraithbone and smash your soulstone you're going to get your soul eaten.
Bad example is bad but I think you get me .. hopefully
Dytalus wrote:
The number 1,300,000 would like to have a word with you.
The millions number? Go ahead, tell me what bother's you...
This'll have to be my last post on this, since maths is slightly ot. <__<
The fact that it is 1 million, three hundred thousand. If thousands cannot go into millions beyond one million, how do you get all the numbers between 1 and 2 million. Or 3 and 4 million. Thousands go into millions, it's basic division.
Dytalus wrote:
The fact that it is 1 million, three hundred thousand. If thousands cannot go into millions beyond one million, how do you get all the numbers between 1 and 2 million. Or 3 and 4 million. Thousands go into millions, it's basic division.
You see, this is different because word "million" goes before thousands. And the text in codex say either "millions" or "thousands" - not millions of thousands. Thousand can never go into million, it's basic math.
Dytalus wrote:
The fact that it is 1 million, three hundred thousand. If thousands cannot go into millions beyond one million, how do you get all the numbers between 1 and 2 million. Or 3 and 4 million. Thousands go into millions, it's basic division.
You see, this is different because word "million" goes before thousands. And the text in codex say either "millions" or "thousands" - not millions of thousands. Thousand can never go into million, it's basic math.
I have to go with coa on this one. When any piece of fluff states "thousands of warriors" or "thousands of worlds", it means while it is impossible to assert the exact number of warriors or planets, we can estimate that they number a few thousands and NOT a few millions.
The Necrons at the height of their power had an Empire beyond measure, after defeating the C'Tan they still had a larger Empire than the IoM at it's peak.
These handful represent the millions - that pretty much sums it up. The Necrons have an Empire vastly larger than the IoM that hasn't fully awoken yet. Consider the tiny amount that has woken already, it pretty much crushed it's way uncontested through the galaxy. Necrons are the winners for most powerful faction.
The IoM is now the tiny factor to a larger race, who's threat is marginal, you can try and call the Necrons a "Tau Threat," but they are in truth, a vast empire squashing little human and xeno bugs alike on their planets.
Brother Coa wrote:No, that doesn't work that.
1.000+ may only go to 1 million, not more ( logically because there is no more thousands, then millions ), 1.000.000+ can go to billion, not more.
So when I say thousands I might go only to 1.000.000+ ( 50.000, 500.000, 999.999 ), I can't say there are thousand planets in galaxy when there is billions of them .
So your theory falls into water
Pilau Rice wrote:Had a chance to look through it and yeah it's ok - looks as if the Enslavers are still there, if not mentioned, but seemed to do the Old Ones in rather than the Necrons .
They are, Trazyn have one Enslaver in his collection.
One more thing I am having against the new Necrons is Trazyn fluff. More specifically: giant man wearing baroque Power Armour.
Almost all are convince that he has a Primarch in his possession.
Pilau Rice wrote:
My reasoning is that you are scared of something that has no soul, that might not do anything to you, rather than have your own soul actually eaten.
Say you are an Eldar, you might never encounter a Necron. But if you fall over a bit of Wraithbone and smash your soulstone you're going to get your soul eaten.
Bad example is bad but I think you get me .. hopefully
You're ignoring the whole, "We fought you before and now we're going to finish it" angle. Or the "YOU KILLED MY FATHER!" angle (Old ones). There are lots of reasons for the Eldar to hate the Necrons.
Brother Coa wrote:Beef, you didn't read more than half of what we write here do you?
You seem to find a conflict in the number of worlds the Necrons have.
They have thousands of worlds across the galaxy that are crawling with automatons. The have untold millions of worlds in stasis.
As for you not liking Trazyn having a possible Primarch in his possession.. .why not? He is millions of years older than the Emperor of mankind and the human race. He came from an empire that was at it's peak and perhaps well after, capable of hunting Tyranids into extinction. His Empire also fought the Eldar in their prime, a race that had the entire Ork threat isolated to a small blip on the galactic map in manageable numbers.
To Trazyn and the Necrons in general, humans, tau, and chaos are just squatters living on borrowed time.
I have no issue with worlds, they have millions ( aldo most of them were either destroyed or raided ) Imperium has million world'S, Orks have even more. I hate Trazyn because: I don't know, I don't like him. He's to creepy even for a Cron...
And you still didn't read half stuff that is posted here...
Trazyn's not creepy. He just likes to kidnap people and imprison them in displays where they can enact historic moments for all eternity for his own satisfaction.
Brother Coa wrote:I have no issue with worlds, they have millions ( aldo most of them were either destroyed or raided ) Imperium has million world'S, Orks have even more. I hate Trazyn because: I don't know, I don't like him. He's to creepy even for a Cron...
And you still didn't read half stuff that is posted here..
Where does it say in their codex that most of their millions of worlds were destroyed? Page Number? I found a reference to worlds perishing due to time, raids, eldar, tectonic plates etc... but nothing about the majority of their worlds being destroyed.
And where does it say the Orkz have more worlds than Necrons? Page Number? Again, I need to know what you are referencing, because I'm not seeing anything in this codex that says orkz have more worlds?
Void__Dragon wrote:Orks have consistently been referred to as the most numerous race in the entire galaxy.
Unless the codex changed that and I missed it, they should still outnumber the Necrons.
That certainly doesn't mean they control the most worlds. I have no problem believing it if it's stated somewhere, but I've never actually seen as such.
iproxtaco wrote:That certainly doesn't mean they control the most worlds. I have no problem believing it if it's stated somewhere, but I've never actually seen as such.
IIRC the galaxy map shows that Orks are essentially everywhere, inhabiting the majority of the galaxy.
There's a fluff piece about a probe sent out from the imperium 10,000 years ago or so that's still transmitting.
Most of the signals it picks up are orkish.
It sys in the Ork dex i think (could be the main rulebook fluff section) that wherever humanity goes the orks are already there, or will be soon.
Ork dex says their number is beyond counting, and they have empires from the galactic core to the distant ghoul stars, but that the empires aaren't static. They rise and fall and rise again.
The Necron Megalith is on page 21 of the new codex. It's described as large enough so that pieces initially thought to be just debris raining down ended up being monoliths. The necrons have a warmachine that makes it rain monoliths.
As for the drive debate, the Night Scythes are apparently "often employed as far-ranging scout ships, tasked with making contact with other tomb worlds . . . " Necrons have to have FTL in their fighters, probably those nice inertialess drives. On the other end of the spectrum, we have a World Engine, that over the course of 14 years, devastates an imperial sector. I'd say that requires FTL.
It's quite possible that every reference to torch ships is another variance of similar madness to that affecting Zahndrek, Necrons having forgotten recent history and falling back to their ancient, necrontyr roots.
Edit: Also, the fluff piece about the Necron Tomb Ship being trashed by a black templar battle barge says nothing about 1 volley. It only states a broadside took down the shields so boarding torpedoes could hit.
Not sure the Necrons are even villians anymore. Imotekh fights with honour. I feel sorry for the Silent King. They are just Imperialists. In many ways they are morally on par with Imperium.
Just a couple of notes on the whole debate. I love the new necron Codex, fluff and all...and I've been with necron for years now.
The original codex declared them as a 'awakening' threat...the new 'dex claims that as a tomb world awakens, it's base forces are awakend to secure the planet....would it not be plausible that what the IoM saw WAS the first troops awakened? Wouldn't they believe that these massive C'tan were the leaders, since everyone else in the army was a mindless killing machines? But now that the REAL leaders are awake, they would see (whilst being manhandled by a tide of undying metal buttwhoopin) That they were wrong about it all?
Another thing I've noticed is alot of debate about the Necron being 'noble and honorable fighters'....yes, against foes they, or more specifically, the Praetorians deem to be an 'honorable' foe. They view everyone else as cattle and insects to be enslaved, or exterminated. Stormlord, however, has a glitch in his system that makes him battle for glory...it's not honor that spared halbrecht, it was Arrogance and Pride. He only spares them so they can wallow in defeat, OR man up, get better, and come back and try for round 2. Nemesor Zahndrekh, however, thinks he's fighting Necrontyr, so EVERYONE gets the codes of battle applied to them.
The Necron may have a boat load of planets...but a crapton where annihilated throughout the ages, through artifice or just bad luck. thousands more aren't even awake yet...
I can't imagine that the Necron can dart across the galaxy willy nilly JUST because they have a few strands of the webway under their belt. they have to use the Dolmen Gates, which angers the webway, causing it to..for lack of a better term...cauterize the entrance, and anything trapped within if they're not fast enough. I assume, since they have some form of 'Dimension slipping' technology, that their ships would use it whenever possible.
Trazyn is just awesome...that pompus letter he wrote that inquisitor...did anyone else notice he sent her a Tesseract Labyrinth! 'thanks for the regiments, here, have an eternal extra dimensional prison to stay in.'
yes, the new Codex paints them as the next 'all powerful conqueror'...but they're not....they get kicked in the face just as much as the next guy (except maybe IG...they get slapped around day and night) Superior Tech? Uh...yea, that's sort of their thing. But no matter how awesome they may seem...they will never win. So just chill...enjoy the Codex for what it is..new. They're a blast to play.
In the one I read they lost less planets than survived and they have thousands awakening with millions in stasis.
The same codex that also has Doom Scythes, a flier that makes veteran armies rip out their own eyes as they see hallucinations of worm ridden corpses of their friends..
In this dex, the Necrons also dominated the face out of a Chapter Master and rocked every race they fought like they were fighting nothing but PDF.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
In this dex, the Necrons also dominated the face out of a Chapter Master and rocked every race they fought like they were fighting nothing but PDF.
So were are you getting this whole weaker thing?
Aside from Helbrecht's revenge, no, it was not that one sided. The Necron Lord that travels around awakening Tomb Worlds crippled his force destroying one Cadian regiment. There were cases of their forces being stretched to the limit. Indeed, one force stalemates against Eldar until the Tomb World they're on wakes up. Not to mention generally in the background the Necrons don't always come out on top.
Tin_cannon wrote:Just a couple of notes on the whole debate. I love the new necron Codex, fluff and all...and I've been with necron for years now.
The original codex declared them as a 'awakening' threat...the new 'dex claims that as a tomb world awakens, it's base forces are awakend to secure the planet....would it not be plausible that what the IoM saw WAS the first troops awakened? Wouldn't they believe that these massive C'tan were the leaders, since everyone else in the army was a mindless killing machines? But now that the REAL leaders are awake, they would see (whilst being manhandled by a tide of undying metal buttwhoopin) That they were wrong about it all?
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not sure the Necrons are even villians anymore. Imotekh fights with honour. I feel sorry for the Silent King. They are just Imperialists. In many ways they are morally on par with Imperium.
Bad guys can fight with honor all they want? They still throw humans into furnaces to rendered down into resources.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Not sure the Necrons are even villians anymore. Imotekh fights with honour. I feel sorry for the Silent King. They are just Imperialists. In many ways they are morally on par with Imperium.
Bad guys can fight with honor all they want? They still throw humans into furnaces to rendered down into resources.
Honor isn't really a good or evil trait..
Some do but some don't. The same can be said of humans.
Just saying, honor doesn't make them aligned to good or evil at all. It's independent of that. Some Knornate devotees have a lot of honor...The ones who aren't all Blooooooood!!! Or at least they used to have it....Well, whatever.
I tend to view the Newcrons as Lawful Evil more than anything. For all its grimdark, I don't tend to view the Imperium as evil. More sort of...misguided.
I personally cannot stand Necrons' fluff. Nor could I stand their actual rules and power during 4th edition. I got to a point where I would decline someone a game if I saw them bring Necrons to the table. :( I do love the new models though.
edit: In regards to the Imperium being "evil"; I think certain aspects are "bad" and "misguided". The only real good guys in the Imperium IMO are the Ultramarines and their successor chapters. They seem to truly care for the people they protect within their systems and maintain their environments.
). The Necrons simply aren't going to tolerate someone destroying THEIR galaxy.
ing bull 
(well sort of, anyway..)