Just as the title says, if it came down to one model, IDC, Vehicle, hero...who could take on any one other model and reliably win (dependent of dice of course)

This using normal combat, as if deploying a whole game to solve this question I.E. two named units fight it out as if an annihilation match with DS from reserve and so forth.

Start us off.

i would have to say either Vindicar assassin or Reg LR

there is a rather short list of competitors.

Mephiston
Greater Demons
Draigo

Who else belongs on this list?

For 275 points i don't find Draigo that scary on his own....
It's his synergy with the pally's that make him so good.

Eldar Phantom Titan.

yea but Drago and Greater Daemons still have to make it through ranged fire, and Drago vs a LR the LR can move away 12" and keep fireing till hes dead.

If the Greater Daemon has Demonic flight then that equals it out.


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Titans don't count, codexs only...how do you play a game with one of thos anyway?

Well on the charge Ragnar is tough. He'd do well!

You didnt specify standard codex only :p just any unit.

And you play a game with them relatibely easily. Takes up foc space, moves, shoots and assaults each turn etc, there's rules in the apoc and IA books.

Armless Failure wrote:there is a rather short list of competitors.

Mephiston
Greater Demons
Draigo

Who else belongs on this list?

Um? Mephiston is not a competitor. If you want a challenger from BA, take the Sanguinor.

Ghaz on a WAAGH is pretty much unstoppable too.

Calgar generally can beat Draigo if he gets the charge.

O ok i didnt know the rules were in the exp. everyone i have seen are about the size of the table


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i still say the Vindacar Assassin would win vs a non jump inf.

Aun'va hands down.

Nevermind. I missed the 1 model bit.

I thought it was only one model?

If it's one unit, 30 Blood Angel Death Company with Jump Packs, Lemartes and fully kitted with whatever you might need in abundance (Powerfists, Meltas, Powerweapons, etc..) would be my bet.

Ah. I fail at reading.

It was one model. I disqualify my entry and hang my head in shame.

Aun'va? the Ethereal? your joking right?

I am talking about any one model, one BT term vs say, the Daemon Sleeneesh Grater Daemons he would get thrown around and played with like a sock puppet.

How about Skarband the psycho thister or Vect is crazy in close combat.

Ghazghkull Thraka is the gak.

If I had to pick one guy, Mephiston. He can use Wings of Sanguinius to close, and once in assault he can use transfixing gaze to get rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls, Sanguine Sword to get str 10 attacks (which is plenty enough to eat LRs), and still have 1 psychic power use left to activate his force sword on you. He strikes at Initiative 7 meaning he's probably going before anyone else. WS 7 plus rerolls means lots of hits, Str 6 plus rerolls means lots of wounds. His High probability of passing a Psychic test means that he will likely ID his target with the force weapon (if not just Str 10).

On the survival side: 2+, T6, 5 wounds, and FNP. No weapon out there will ID him, and anything that allows a save will be made. The Psychic hood serves a a protection from opposing force weapons. His lack of Invulnerable save is his only weak point.

Honestly anything fast with High Init and a force weapon has a good shot, but Meph's str 10 will wreck LR and Monoliths hard.

the problem with Daemons being the best is there's a GK counter for everyone of them...what about that CSM abomination, Abadon or whatever his name is?

Swarmlord to

Armless Failure wrote:If I had to pick one guy, Mephiston. He can use Wings of Sanguinius to close, and once in assault he can use transfixing gaze to get rerolls on all to hit and to wound rolls, Sanguine Sword to get str 10 attacks, and still have 1 psychic power use left to activate his force sword on you. He strikes at Initiative 7 meaning he's probably going before anyone else. WS 7 plus rerolls means lots of hits, Str 6 plus rerolls means lots of wounds. His High probability of passing a Psychic test means that he will likely ID his target.

On the survival side: 2+, T6, and FNP. No weapon out there will ID him, and anything that allows a save will be made. The Psychic hood serves a a protection from opposing force weapons. His lack of Invulnerable save is his only weak point.

Honestly anything fast with High Init and a force weapon has a good shot, but Meph's str 10 will wreck LR and Monoliths hard.

Anything with Eternal Warrior will just wait for him though. Against the likes of Draigo, Calgar, Ghaz or Abaddon, he'll just run into a wall and die. Sanguinor also eats him for breakfast.

shadeyaces wrote:Swarmlord to

AGREED!!!

I say Skulltaker on a chariot.

He can literally wound everything with just shy of Meph stats.

I'm going have to second the swarmlord in this.nothing could match him in cc and wouldn't did from shooting either.

Zweischneid wrote:Anything with Eternal Warrior will just wait for him though. Against the likes of Draigo, Calgar, Ghaz or Abaddon, he'll just run into a wall and die. Sanguinor also eats him for breakfast.

Their still sucking down 4-5 str 10 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound. He may not get them on his charge, but he has a high probability of surviving the return strikes.

Saint Celestian hands down no question. coming back from death over and over again will outlast pretty much anyone else. also vect on the dias of destruction would be a condender if dias is allowed.

I would say a Fire Prism that's fully upgraded in regular 40k. It can outrun anything so you won't ever catch in CC, holofields are annoying as usual and the gun is well suited for taking out tanks and infantry alike while outranging most others (like guys with melta etc.).

dumplingman wrote:Saint Celestian hands down no question. coming back from death over and over again will outlast pretty much anyone else. also vect on the dias of destruction would be a condender if dias is allowed.

I am pretty sure that the game is over when all your models are dead. If celestine were merely put on her side, it would be a different story.

if equipped with a dias of destruction can vec leave it (like a transport), or is it more like a bike?

Armless Failure wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:Anything with Eternal Warrior will just wait for him though. Against the likes of Draigo, Calgar, Ghaz or Abaddon, he'll just run into a wall and die. Sanguinor also eats him for breakfast.

Their still sucking down 4-5 str 10 attacks with rerolls to hit and wound. He may not get them on his charge, but he has a high probability of surviving the return strikes.

Not really. Try to play it through.

Say he fights against Calgar. Even assuming he gets off all his powers every time, he'll inflict maybe (too lazy for Mathhammer) 4 wounds each turn, of which Calgar save half. Calgar in return will inflict 4 wounds each turn (he gets all those nifty re-rolls too) but Mephiston will save none in return (no Inv. save). And if Calgar can snipe him ahead of time with an Orbit. Bomb or his AP2 Bolters, he'll even starts with an edge. Time plays against Mephy. Put him against Ghaz with a 2++, and Mephs starting to look fairly out of his depth.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mephiston is a great buy in a regular game, especially since he gets a 100 pt. Psychic Hood that none of other combat-monster-characters get, so his utility is unmatched. But 1 vs. 1, there's simply bigger fish out there than Mephiston.

A Wraithlord with brightlance could do well versus alot of these things (not sure about alot of the Special Chars stats versus it.) the big thing is, with a bright lance it could kite around anything melee that would kill it, and with Dreadnought CC weapons, double str on T5 or lower, Toughness 8! and 4 wounds. its a beast.

Straight up charge and fight i'd go with Swarmlord.

Yeah, Vect is a realistic contender for this, triply-so if the dias is involved.

Zweischneid wrote:Not really. Try to play it through.

Say he fights against Calgar. Even assuming he gets off all his powers every time, he'll inflict maybe (too lazy for Mathhammer) 4 wounds each turn, of which Calgar save half. Calgar in return will inflict 4 wounds each turn (he gets all those nifty re-rolls too) but Mephiston will save none in return (no Inv. save). Time plays against Mephy. Put him against Ghaz with a 2++, and Mephs starting to look fairly out of his depth.

Don't get me wrong, I think Mephiston is a great buy in a regular game, especially since he gets a 100 pt. Psychic Hood that none of other combat-monster-characters get, so his utility is unmatched. But 1 vs. 1, there's simply bigger fish out there than Mephiston.

Assuming that tanks are a thing in these competitions, he is better at wreaking them than most of the other guys listed. He is also faster than any other option presented thus far, meaning he gets to pick his moment to attack. And the Psychic hood keeps Eldrad and any other psykers from having their way, and he has much better base stats, equipment, and special rules outside of pychic powers than any other psysker (possibly barring a greater daemon of Tzeentch).

Ghaz's 2++ only lasts for one round and has to be called during his Shooting phase. Since Ghaz is incredibly slow, Meph gets to choose when combat starts, and therefore he will get at least one round of attacks unmolested. And since activating his force weapon is useless he can pop unleash rage and hit of 3+ reguardless of WS. He can pull this on Calgar too, or any other high WS eternal warrior. The only, and I mean only reason to doubt him is lack of any sort of invulnerable save (which is key in this competition, since everyone and their brother has power weapons).

Mathhammer on rerolled attacks that hit on 3+. ~11% chance to miss. With rerolls to wound assuming str 10 wounds almost everything on 2+ only fails to wound 3% of the time. That means it is likely that 4 of his 5 attacks on a charge will wound. This is where invulnerable saves come in, assuming 4+ (calgar and anything else with an Iron Halo or Rosarius). He's still likely to get 2 through. If the return attack does deal 5 wounds against T6 he will get to attack again, and will get just shy of 2 wounds through (probabilistically speaking he's slightly more likely to get 2 than 1). Calgar has 4 wounds, Ghaz has 4 wounds. He has a 50/50 shot against either of them, assuming he doesn't use his plasma pistol before the charge, or it misses but doesn't wound him. Considering it hit on a 2+ at Str 7, I would say that it slightly tilts the odds against ghaz and calgar. Don't know enough stats on other special characters to say, but Calgar and Ghaz are pretty good. I don't know failbaddon.

We can pretty much ignore everyone's armor save for this thought experiment. I can't think of any serious entry to this competition that doesn't have either a power weapon, power fist, or gun with ap 1 or 2.


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Karnac wrote:A Wraithlord with brightlance could do well versus alot of these things (not sure about alot of the Special Chars stats versus it.) the big thing is, with a bright lance it could kite around anything melee that would kill it, and with Dreadnought CC weapons, double str on T5 or lower, Toughness 8! and 4 wounds. its a beast.

Straight up charge and fight i'd go with Swarmlord.

Anything with a jump pack wreaks your plan, provided T6 or EW. Mephiston breaks it's wraithbone form over his knee like a stick (T6 + force weapon + Jump Pack). Leman Russ Exterminator and LR could probably break it. Calgar would live long enough to box it into a corner, though I am not sure about it taking dreadnought CCW. Eldars best chances are likely Eldrad or a kitted out fire prism.



I really don't see the Sanguinor being so hot. It can't break vehicles, has no ranged attack, only 3 wounds, ect. I see it being okay, but I would take Dante over this, for the purposes of this competition. Meph is easily the best option from the BA.

Thunder wolflord w/ss and FW w/ saga of the bear.

Bluewulf wrote:Thunder wolflord w/ss and FW w/ saga of the bear.

I think you mis-abbreviated Wolf Claw as FW.

A blood angels Stormraven would have a good shot at killing pretty much anyone and surviving.

Kit it out with an assault cannon and a Multi-Melta, and you are good to go.

Gretchin /w slugga and cybork.

Brotherhood Champion. Yes he's pretty awful but the main idea is that he has a good chance of taking whatever killed him to the grave as well.

good call about celestian it completely slipped my mind that if you are tabled she can't come back!
Still though vect + dias is still going strong

Lets not forget about Lysander... one of the toughest characters (if not THE toughest) in the game.

2+/3++ armor, with 4 wounds and eternal warrior?

Packing a str10 Master-Crafted melta hammer? Yes please!

dumplingman wrote:good call about celestian it completely slipped my mind that if you are tabled she can't come back!
Still though vect + dias is still going strong

She can if the game has not ended though right?

so if you kill her turn 2 you have the possibility for her to get back up, since the game does not end for at least another 3 turns.

only if she is a counter when the game ends does she count as destroyed, that's how it reads to me anyway.

Lysander would probably be my generalist call, too.

If it were limited to MEQ non-vehicles, Sanguinor, hands down.

Kharn has a pretty good shot if they're starting in CC, considering he always wounds on a 2+. Abaddon's also pretty good.

Actually as for Ghaz's Waagh invul save he may call it at ANY time except the first turn, and lasts for the remainder of that turn and the following one, so unless charged in turn 1 he will be able to call it at will. ( see Ork codex pg.58 Prophet of the Waaagh! )

I still side with ole Ghaz, if for no other reason than he is the coolest of the super baddies here.

Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Actually as for Ghaz's Waagh invul save he may call it at ANY time except the first turn, and lasts for the remainder of that turn and the following one, so unless charged in turn 1 he will be able to call it at will. ( see Ork codex pg.58 Prophet of the Waaagh! )

I still side with ole Ghaz, if for no other reason than he is the coolest of the super baddies here.

I thought that Calling the WAAAAAGH was only during the shooting phase.

nope not in this case for Ghaz..he's special.

Draigo is by far the greatest model ever to exist in fluff, tabletop or even REALITY.. What other model in the game can kill infinite demons while sleeping or eating a cheeseburger.. Draigo can that's who. (He also has pretty beefy stats in game)

Kirasu wrote:Draigo is by far the greatest model ever to exist in fluff, tabletop or even REALITY.. What other model in the game can kill infinite demons while sleeping or eating a cheeseburger.. Draigo can that's who. (He also has pretty beefy stats in game)

Maybe in fluff he's done that, but it doesn't work out quite so well for him on tabletop.

pretre wrote:

Bluewulf wrote:Thunder wolflord w/ss and FW w/ saga of the bear.

I think you mis-abbreviated Wolf Claw as FW.

Nope I just Like str6!!

@Bluewulf: I think if you do the math, WC is better against all targets except vehicles with rear armor 12 or walkers with Front armor 12. But to each his own.

As a GK player it pains me say it but I'm going with Abaddon. 1vs1 the guy eats through most models. Draigo wishes he was that good on TT, in a fight.

Valkyrie wrote:Brotherhood Champion. Yes he's pretty awful but the main idea is that he has a good chance of taking whatever killed him to the grave as well.

Nice choice.

Greyish wrote:As a GK player it pains me say it but I'm going with Abaddon. 1vs1 the guy eats through most models. Draigo wishes he was that good on TT, in a fight.

Valkyrie wrote:Brotherhood Champion. Yes he's pretty awful but the main idea is that he has a good chance of taking whatever killed him to the grave as well.

Nice choice.

I would of agreed with abaddon until last weekend.me and my friend decided to have a 1500point battle where he used every single chaos character in the codex(a lot of proxies).I,decided to do a proxy of my own and used the swarm lord,until playing this game i had never used him before and he did pretty awesome.in the battle he managed to assist the genestealers in killing a chaos hero(cant remember which),he then went on to kill kharn, Lucius and abbadon without taking any wounds!

I'm with Ghaz on this one. Even if he is slow, why not deploy behind a building out of LOS and wait for the opponent to come to him. Call his Waaaagh!(at anytime) when in opponent is in range and should be enough. 2++ is solid enough to withstand any number of attacks and then respond with 7 S10 attacks on charge. I could be way off but from my experience Ghaz is top notch.

Then again after reading swarmlord...

Baneblade.
Or that big-ass titan.

C'tan shard with Time's Arrow and Gaze of Death. The arrow goes before anything in CC and if the enemy model fails their initiative test then instantly removed from play. Assuming that fails then CC continues as normal, 4 attacks at str. 7 and I4 isn't to bad. What then ends this combat is the gaze which is, admittedly str. 3, but allows no armor saves and returns a wound to the C'tan. 3 seperate times it attacks during the combat phase

Azure wrote:C'tan shard

I was with you until about here.

The Swarmlord maybe?

pretre wrote:

Azure wrote:C'tan shard

I was with you until about here.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out on my reasoning then. I hope you can come back and read at some point, I think it to be rather valid

Seaward wrote:Lysander would probably be my generalist call, too.

If it were limited to MEQ non-vehicles, Sanguinor, hands down.

Meph eats Sanguinor, as does Failbaddon, Calgar, Kharn, Typhus, and Lysander. And All three of them can wreck vehicles too. And those are just marines. Several C'tan Shard loadouts could eat him too.

I was considering Lucius, even if you lose, you could claim a fluff win.

If C:WH was still legal, a kitted out Cannoness (that costs entirely too many points) could be a reasonable contender (yay 2++).

Azure wrote:

pretre wrote:

Azure wrote:C'tan shard

I was with you until about here.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out on my reasoning then. I hope you can come back and read at some point, I think it to be rather valid

I think you dropped something. Looks kind of like a sense of humor. You might need that later.

pretre wrote:

Azure wrote:

pretre wrote:

Azure wrote:C'tan shard

I was with you until about here.

I'm sorry to hear that you missed out on my reasoning then. I hope you can come back and read at some point, I think it to be rather valid

I think you dropped something. Looks kind of like a sense of humor. You might need that later.

I am not apt to use humor unless it is blatently obvious. The internet's lack of facial expression and tone is to hard to try and guage so I always am serious unless, as previously mentioned, it is horrendously obvious that I am not

Armless Failure wrote:

Seaward wrote:Lysander would probably be my generalist call, too.

If it were limited to MEQ non-vehicles, Sanguinor, hands down.

Meph eats Sanguinor, as does Failbaddon, Calgar, Kharn, Typhus, and Lysander.

Only in some weird world where math no longer works correctly.

When he's not hitting himself in the face, Abaddon is pretty badass. Lelith Hesperax is hard to overlook with I9.

Seaward wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:

Seaward wrote:Lysander would probably be my generalist call, too.

If it were limited to MEQ non-vehicles, Sanguinor, hands down.

Meph eats Sanguinor, as does Failbaddon, Calgar, Kharn, Typhus, and Lysander.

Only in some weird world where math no longer works correctly.

How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

You are capable of making your own Necron Overlord pretty damn powerful.

strength 7 warscythe
gets back up on 4+ res orb
2+ save
3+ invul
roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

I can see a lord like that being hard to take down and even if you do he can get back up.

I would say that stands up to pretty much anything

Ghazzy using WAAAGH and getting the charge has at least a fighting chance against any character in the game.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:You are capable of making your own Necron Overlord pretty damn powerful.

strength 7 warscythe
gets back up on 4+ res orb
2+ save
3+ invul
roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

I can see a lord like that being hard to take down and even if you do he can get back up.

I would say that stands up to pretty much anything

I was about to say "BWAAAAH, CHEESE" remembering the previous necron codex under 4e rules (hated monoliths), but I guess, given codex creep, that's actually probably perfectly reasonable. What is the point cost on this guy? I realize it's not a point of contention on this thread, but I'm kinda curious.

Armless Failure wrote:
How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

3++, Eternal Warrior, lots of attacks. Initiative and Strength don't really matter that much in the "I-have-high-inv.-save-&-EW"-club. Only 3 wounds is a downer though.

Zweischneid wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:
How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

3++, Eternal Warrior, lots of attacks. Initiative and Strength don't really matter that much in the "I-have-high-inv.-save-&-EW"-club. Only 3 wounds is a downer though.

Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Seaward wrote:

Zweischneid wrote:

Armless Failure wrote:
How is sanguinor winning against any of them. He's good, especially for the points, but he hasn't the statline of the weakest of them. The only great thing is the 3++, beyond that what's his edge?

3++, Eternal Warrior, lots of attacks. Initiative and Strength don't really matter that much in the "I-have-high-inv.-save-&-EW"-club. Only 3 wounds is a downer though.

Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Meph gets rerolls too, and can do it against things that are not HQ, and wounds him on a 2+ with reroll, even if he can't ID him. Sangy needs a 5+ with reroll to wound, and Sangy hits on a 4+ with reroll, meph on 3+ with reroll assuming unleash rage goes off. Meph may not have a save, but he is getting hit less, getting wounded less, is hitting more, is wounding more, can actually break vehicles, can stop psychic powers, and has a ranged weapon. Sanguinor vs. Mephiston is a close match, but Sangy lacks all the things that Meph brings to the other fights.

If it just was hq's I'd like old zogwart due to squigging other independent characters.

Other than that I'd say Ghaz is a good choice. But Eldrad might be able to do some damage too

Seaward wrote:Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Mephiston isn't a serious contender for the top-spot anyhow as he lacks and inv. save. Not to mention that he'll die to ID by Draigo, Asurmen, etc.. if they have ID-weapons. As said, I think Sanguinor certainly ranks above Mephy by and large. But Draigo or Calgar just curb-stomp him. Ghaz doesn't even break a sweat. Most of the top-guys like Calgar also have rerolls too.

Zweischneid wrote:

Seaward wrote:Everyone seems to be forgetting his rerolls to hit and wound against a chosen HQ. That's what allows him to beat Mephy more than half the time, from a mathhammer perspective.

Mephiston isn't a serious contender for the top-spot anyhow as he lacks and inv. save. Not to mention that he'll die to ID by Draigo, Asurmen, etc.. if they have ID-weapons. As said, I think Sanguinor certainly ranks above Mephy by and large. But Draigo or Calgar just curb-stomp him. Ghaz doesn't even break a sweat. Most of the top-guys like Calgar also have rerolls too.

Mathhammer out Sanguinor vs. Draigo. I think you'll be surprised.

Seaward wrote:
Mathhammer out Sanguinor vs. Draigo. I think you'll be surprised.

Again.. I have no doubt in the nastyness that can be the Sanguinor. If he had 4 Wounds, I think he'd rock most of them.

Mathhammer out Mephiston vs. Draigo or Calgar and see if Mephy's still in the running. It's him that I fail to see at the very top in a 1 vs. 1 scenario.

Oh, and for Draigo, I'd like to point you to a fight that I did Mathhammer for the fun of it.

Zweischneid wrote:

Seaward wrote:
Mathhammer out Sanguinor vs. Draigo. I think you'll be surprised.

Again.. I have no doubt in the nastyness that can be the Sanguinor. If he had 4 Wounds, I think he'd rock most of them.

Mathhammer out Mephiston vs. Draigo or Calgar and see if Mephy's still in the running. It's him that I fail to see at the very top in a 1 vs. 1 scenario.

Oh, and for Draigo, I'd like to point you to a fight that I did Mathhammer for the fun of it.

Nah, I don't consider Mephy a top 1v1 contender anyway...which is why I was pointing out to that other guy that Sanguinor will, statistically, beat him most of the time.

I haven't done the Calgar vs. Sanguinor math, but I still think Sanguinor will likely win it, just due to those rerolls to hit and wound.

These threads always overlook the clear winner:

Baharroth

You can't ever shoot at him, you can't ever assault him. And, his constant S4 AP5 bombs will eventually kill anything other than a Wraithlord or a vehicle with AV over 10.

And, against vehicles, he has haywire grenades and always hits on a 4+ or better. So, he's at least got a chance against them.

And when the game ends on turn 5 - 7 and he's still off the board because he's hiding, he counts as dead right?

Or it is at least a tie since he's drops down turn 5 and hides in a corner hoping not to get assaulted/shot and that 4 turns of S4AP5 actually hurt any of these badasses.

though not necessarily a win i do like the idea of lukas the tricksetr in one on one fights, pelt of the dopegangrel, wolf claw and a pretty good stat line he's not bad, plus he's got that stasis bomb heart for a good ol' last laugh if things go wrong. too bad you have to take blood claws to use him. He's not the best model out there but he is indeed a funny one!

i said it earlyer, but all the inv saves getting thrown out there, a Vindicar Assassin can remove an INV save for the rest of the game on a 4+, his BS is 8, one round he uses wounds on a 2+, the round is AP1 for all shots, and he can use 4D6 vs vehicles...if even Drago gets hit and drops his INV save hes takin a wound every turn till hes dead. the Assassins range is 36 so that's at a min 3 turns of shots if you have los.

gibby_934 wrote:though not necessarily a win i do like the idea of lukas the tricksetr in one on one fights, pelt of the dopegangrel, wolf claw and a pretty good stat line he's not bad, plus he's got that stasis bomb heart for a good ol' last laugh if things go wrong. too bad you have to take blood claws to use him. He's not the best model out there but he is indeed a funny one!

Well, as you said, 1 vs. 1 you cannot take him and if you're allowed more than one (and presumably your opponent), you can sacrifice a pawn. That said.. just shoot him, don't slash him.


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DK wrote:i said it earlyer, but all the inv saves getting thrown out there, a Vindicar Assassin can remove an INV save for the rest of the game on a 4+, his BS is 8, one round he uses wounds on a 2+, the round is AP1 for all shots, and he can use 4D6 vs vehicles...if even Drago gets hit and drops his INV save hes takin a wound every turn till hes dead. the Assassins range is 36 so that's at a min 3 turns of shots if you have los.

Draigo would probably deepstrike though if you know what you face. Worse, deepstrike somebody like Dante, no scatter, melta-to-the-face, your turn now. Want to take my inv.-save? You're welcome to it.

He also can only take "equipment-based" Inv. save. Guys like Ghaz or Ragnar are save from him. Calgar or Kantor have a not insignificant chance of taking him with an orbital bomb.

true its for Equip, but the only INV save i know of other then armor or iron halo is Daemons.

also he can use the rounds with a pistol so he can move and shot as well.

with that said. he does ruin a lot of peoples day with that Shield-Breaker round.

DK wrote:true its for Equip, but the only INV save i know of other then armor or iron halo is Daemons.

Ragnar is 4++ because of his "dodge", as is Lelith. Ghaz has his 2++ because his is "prophet of the WAAGH!". Sanguinor has 3++ because of "Undying Will". I am sure there are more. Mephiston, not having an inv. in the first place, would also have a field day with a Vindicare.

Over all there is no one unit that will take a battlefield by storm in the codexes but other models like titans will do. I know this from xp.

flyingsquirrels wrote:I would of agreed with abaddon until last weekend.me and my friend decided to have a 1500point battle where he used every single chaos character in the codex(a lot of proxies).I,decided to do a proxy of my own and used the swarm lord,until playing this game i had never used him before and he did pretty awesome.in the battle he managed to assist the genestealers in killing a chaos hero(cant remember which),he then went on to kill kharn, Lucius and abbadon without taking any wounds!

Indeed the Swarm Lord is probably one of the better counters to him, if anything. But I'm unsure whether it's better at fighting most other models overall. As for the battle, it sounds like a lot of luck (and obviously assistance) went into that rampage. I wouldn't considered that a median of what would normally happen.

Would a Soul Grinder be competitive to any of this?

The old nightbringer.

Okay so I redid some my math. Meph's fight against Sangy is tipped in favor of Sangy, but not by more than 10%. If Meph had even a 6++ he would be the statistical favorite.

Having an invulnerable save is pretty much necessity to entry for non-vehicles. I don't know what a vehicle needs to compete, but it has to be really good, given that the bulk of the competitors have the ability to punch tanks into submission. I really don't see non-vehicle primary shooters being a good option, though I may be overlooking something nasty. That being said being able to shoot has uses as it might make take a wound in the first few turns.

Draigo lost to Papa Smurf 1-2 in a best of three dual I ran last night, but I haven't done the mathhammer. Orbital bombarment was either missed, saved or failed to wound in each match.

Will run Sangy vs. Meph tonight.

Setup I used: 4'6"X4'6" table, with 25% covered in terrain: 1 building, 2 difficult forests, several impassable rocks, placed by a thoroughly disinterested (and mildly annnoyed) third party. Deploy within 6" of the opposite corners of the table. Die roll winner choose either deploy corner or first turn, looser gets the other. Deepstrike was disallowed, but I am willing to overturn that rule, it just seemed like it wasted a bunch of time.

Any one have thoughts on the battle setup, keeping in mind that the table size is not negotiable for me at the moment..

My cat

GamzaTheChaos wrote:You are capable of making your own Necron Overlord pretty damn powerful.

strength 7 warscythe
gets back up on 4+ res orb
2+ save
3+ invul
roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

I can see a lord like that being hard to take down and even if you do he can get back up.

I would say that stands up to pretty much anything

This is exactly what I was thinking. An Overlord with all the goodies is one of the toughest things in the game 1v1, especially since half the time your model will hit himself in the face when fighting this guy.

~Edit~
Oh, even more fearsome if we're allowed to bring things like the Dais, as that opens up the CCB for the Overlord.

GamzaTheChaos wrote:roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

What's this about?

Durza wrote:

GamzaTheChaos wrote:roll below your wounds or get removed from the table

What's this about?

Tessaract Labyrinth. P82, Codex: Necrons.

Doom of Malan'Tai!

its kinda like the boon Daemon weapon, forces a model to take a toughness test, if he fails hes gone.

Are we allowing old Codex? If so I'd say the deceiver. He ignores all saves can drop out of combat at will and should be able to curb stomp just about any thing is immune to ID weapons' ID effects and can move through all terrain.

If we arn't allowing old 'dex then I don't know.

any one got a Chuck Norris figure to settle this?

De archon with blaster and how ever many other special items can be taken


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And off the back of that, what would you say to taking the archons court too...? They're not technically a unit due to only being available once an archon has been 'purchased', kinda like a wargear upgrade. Cheeky!

Necron overlord.

3 wounds, 2+/3++ saves, gets up on a 4+ and the first time he gets up he gets up with d3 wounds, ranged he gets a single shot str 10 ap 1 missle (infinite range), melee he gets a str 7 power weapon that roles 2d6+str for pen, makes you roll leadership under 3d6 every turn or attack yourself (and lose all attacks against him) And he can make you roll under your wounds or just be removed from play.


So anything in close combat with me is gonna be cheesed real hard, every almost ever single round of combat, and vs the vindicare i pretty much have a 50/50 chance of insta gibing him first turn if i see him unless he gets a cover save or something (I dont know his rules well), vs a lr same thing pretty much.

270 points

What about lillybeth halifax (the DE character who's name eludes me), she has a 4++, FnP, and some scary abilities. She may not have the resilience of some of these guys, but earlier this evening she smashed my Dante into pieces (and then proceeded to die to a krak missile to the face).

I'm going to vote with Vect here. he's WS8, has preferred enemy against everything, re-rolls to wound against eldar and De, has a power weapon that wounds on a 3+ against everything, has 7 attacks on the charge, I8, and a 2++. I'd say that's pretty good. His only downside is his low toughness and the potential of his shadowfield breaking. but that's where the I8 comes in.

Monkeyninja wrote:Necron overlord.

3 wounds, 2+/3++ saves, gets up on a 4+ and the first time he gets up he gets up with d3 wounds, ranged he gets a single shot str 10 ap 1 missle (infinite range), melee he gets a str 7 power weapon that roles 2d6+str for pen, makes you roll leadership under 3d6 every turn or attack yourself (and lose all attacks against him) And he can make you roll under your wounds or just be removed from play.


So anything in close combat with me is gonna be cheesed real hard, every almost ever single round of combat, and vs the vindicare i pretty much have a 50/50 chance of insta gibing him first turn if i see him unless he gets a cover save or something (I dont know his rules well), vs a lr same thing pretty much.

270 points

I think a fully kitted Necron lord is the Winner. Esp, since the Mindshackle scarabs prevents the enemy from attacking you. So, you are hitting yourself, and getting hit with a Warscythe, while not doing anything back to the Lord. Pretty nasty. Take a wound or two, then Get hit by the Tesserect, which will remove you from play.

One GK palidin with the NF Ward Staff (2++ in CC) and a Psycannon, 4 rending shots at S7 24'. and 2A force weapon 3 on assault, hammerhand give 5S.

I'm saying Ghazzy, simply because he's surprisingly fast, EW, many wounds, high T, and has that 2++ save on the turn he charges you down. Yes, some of those faster vehicles might be a bit much, but he has a Big Shoota to try and peg them down, SnP don't trouble him too much with IC status, etc.


Alternately, I think a Warphead or SAGMek could make a pretty good showing, too. Most of the Warphead PSA are actually auto-hit, and he can teleport, or give 'imself Power weapons. SAGMek is just because of the ludicrous range and possibility of immense power.

Sasori wrote:

Monkeyninja wrote:Necron overlord.

3 wounds, 2+/3++ saves, gets up on a 4+ and the first time he gets up he gets up with d3 wounds, ranged he gets a single shot str 10 ap 1 missle (infinite range), melee he gets a str 7 power weapon that roles 2d6+str for pen, makes you roll leadership under 3d6 every turn or attack yourself (and lose all attacks against him) And he can make you roll under your wounds or just be removed from play.


So anything in close combat with me is gonna be cheesed real hard, every almost ever single round of combat, and vs the vindicare i pretty much have a 50/50 chance of insta gibing him first turn if i see him unless he gets a cover save or something (I dont know his rules well), vs a lr same thing pretty much.

270 points

I think a fully kitted Necron lord is the Winner. Esp, since the Mindshackle scarabs prevents the enemy from attacking you. So, you are hitting yourself, and getting hit with a Warscythe, while not doing anything back to the Lord. Pretty nasty. Take a wound or two, then Get hit by the Tesserect, which will remove you from play.

Jebus, yeah I agree, how the hell do you beat one of these?! No, wait, I'll find it in another thread so I don't take this one OT... Definitely think the overlord wins though

Looking at the Daemons codex, im going to have to vote for the FateWeaver, the boon of mutation makes a model within 6' even if in CC take a T test, roll above there toughness or a 6 and they are gone, and he rerolls his failed sv, 3++