I take no credit for this. Non of these are my rumours, just reading from other forums since I don't see anything on Dakka. Sorry for not updating earlier.

Wow, I am shocked, I don't see any Black Templar Rumours here on Dakka Dakka. Was on B&C and it directed me to Warseer for the BT rumouors. So since I don't go there very often and come here alost everyday, lets discuss about the BT here. If by any chance there is a BT rumour page and I missed it, can anyone direct me to it please since I don't see one.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=324214 link to Warseer.

Updated: 22-11-2011
Ghost has said that BT are due out before Tau, presumably the next codex. He also said

Originally Posted by ghost21
due to them sitting done for nearly 8 months?... n honestly sword brethren are nice
I believe therefore that the Black Templars should have their own rumor thread rather than cluttering up the other rumor threads. I invite Ghost, as well as any others with information to share to post it here.
First update (thank you for the advice Shabbadoo)
And thank you ghost21 for these rumors!


Originally Posted by ghost21
kits for sword brethren n nophytes(sp) as ive said im more of a xenos guy but ill provide what i know, vows are less restrictive

i also saw things for something called knights of the inner circle (or something along those lines).. they were named each came from a successor chapter, n the guy who lead them was a bt... it was interesting but as usual salt applies
More

Originally Posted by Mirbeau
Not as big! But more bizarre! (unless you play fantasy...). That's most of what I know about it. Speculating from that - big buffing thing with a howdah ?!

A bit more for now - in regards to the 'neophytes' (if they continue with that name), I heard they were finecast. Whilst it would leave room for another plastic kit, I hope this isn't true.

Dark Angels are not at all on my radar, doesn't mean they aren't happening anytime soon, but I haven't heard a thing, if ghost's heard anything it is likely to do with black templars.
Conflicting rumors here


Originally Posted by Lord Commissar Aquila
4. CSM will get one of the newest dexes in 6th, right after the Marine dex.

5. Tau and BT will get a release soon after CSM; other races updated in 5th will not be updated in 6th as their rules (at least from Guard onwards) are allready suited for 6th. Ward will probably do the BT and might do Tau as well. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.
Old rumor from Jordankeeps at DakkaDakka
link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum...60/361666.page

"Phill kelly is going to write the Bt codex, so that should be great oh and new units added for bt as well. by Jared van Kell
Quote

A little but nothing solid. What I have heard.

- Phil Kelly is writing the Codex.
- More emphasis on the horde aspect of the army with lots of large units of Initiates and Neophytes.
- Emperors Champion is more in line with the company champion of the Grey Knights but is still 2 wounds. Gains preferred enemy against independent characters and monstrous creatures.

I will let you know as I hear more.



by Jared van Kell
Quote

Some additional bits.

- I forgot to mention the Rightous Zeal rule could be changing to be more along the lines of the Rage USR. Something along the lines of if they fail a Ld test then they are subject to Rage and must advance towards the nearest enemy unit. As yet the details are sketchy.
- All the current special characters (ie: Helbrect and Grimaldius) will remain. Also I had heard of an mention of a special character who is like the greatest of all of the Emperor's Champions and the greatest warrior in the Black Templars. I had heard mention of a bike mounted special character with a lance like weapon but I cannot confirm this yet. "


Originally Posted by superdupermatt
Certain units to get Rage USR is one I've heard repeatedly. (foolishly didn't see the first post... oops!)
Sword Brethren are to get a special rule where when they are assaulted the enemy unit has to re-roll all* successful hits, at the expense of 1 attack. It's called "parry".
Land Raiders, when suffering a 5 or 6 on the damage chart* (so "wrecked" or "destroyed") gets one more turn where it rampage, think along the lines of the machine spirit going bezerk.
No horses as far as I am aware, bikes would be the direction (if any at all) for riding knights.
There is a named Emperor's Champion, he's meant to be the longest living EC in the Black Templars history, or somesuch.

*I'll seek clarification as it doesn't quite seem right in my head.

*edit* Dec 12 2011

From Stickymonky on Warseer. http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=327436

My sources are giving me the following general timelines of codex releases

2012
Q1/2 - tau (or flipped w BT)
Q2/3 - BT ( possible WD codex)
Q3 - 6 Ed
Q3/4 - eldar

2013 getting fuzzy
Q1 - SM
Q2/3 - chaos legions (new)
Q4 - ig or orks!

2014. So much could change...no order given
Daemons
Nids
DA?

This is a long way out, and a lot could change, but we know the studio has long lead times.

Cheers, Merry Christmas.

*edit* Dec 30/2011

Here is some more rumours I found at B&C. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=242736 from Th!rdeye. I believe most of them are reported, but too tired right now, to see what is and wasn't said. So I don't leave anything here is.


I figured this would be a good thread considering we are getting a good bunch of rumours coming in. So i will be collecting each rumour that springs up from Dakka, Warseer and the like and posting them here.


If you have ANY thing i missed i will gladly add it in, or if you have an anonymous rumor (unlikely) PM me and i'll put it up.

So here it is. Let me know if i missed something or you have another rumor.

ghost21 from Warseer

QUOTE

due to them sitting done for nearly 8 months?... n honestly sword brethren are nice


ghost21 from Warseer

QUOTE

kits for sword brethren n nophytes(sp) as ive said im more of a xenos guy but ill provide what i know, vows are less restrictive

i also saw things for something called knights of the inner circle (or something along those lines).. they were named each came from a successor chapter, n the guy who lead them was a bt... it was interesting but as usual salt applies


ghost21 from Warseer

QUOTE

relic dreadnaughts, like a mobile requiary bearer... is what i had heard


Mirbeau from Warseer, In response to someone saying our "big thing" might be a Thunderhawk...

QUOTE

Not as big! But more bizarre! (unless you play fantasy...). That's most of what I know about it. Speculating from that - big buffing thing with a howdah ?!

A bit more for now - in regards to the 'neophytes' (if they continue with that name), I heard they were finecast. Whilst it would leave room for another plastic kit, I hope this isn't true.

Dark Angels are not at all on my radar, doesn't mean they aren't happening anytime soon, but I haven't heard a thing, if ghost's heard anything it is likely to do with black templars.


From Warseer, in regards to someone hearing about a "giant tracked siege weapon" (Related to above quote?)

QUOTE

I mentioned it recently but it was a rumor posted some time ago from stickmonkey if i remember correctly although i could be wrong. It was in response to some comments about the dreadknight before the actual release of the GK codex and it mentions a dreadnought variant on tracks designed for siege purposes.


From DakkaDakka, original quote by Jared van Kell from Librarium Online

QUOTE

Phill kelly is going to write the Bt codex, so that should be great oh and new units added for bt as well. by Jared van Kell
Quote

A little but nothing solid. What I have heard.

- Phil Kelly is writing the Codex.
- More emphasis on the horde aspect of the army with lots of large units of Initiates and Neophytes.
- Emperors Champion is more in line with the company champion of the Grey Knights but is still 2 wounds. Gains preferred enemy against independent characters and monstrous creatures.

I will let you know as I hear more.



by Jared van Kell
Quote

Some additional bits.

- I forgot to mention the Rightous Zeal rule could be changing to be more along the lines of the Rage USR. Something along the lines of if they fail a Ld test then they are subject to Rage and must advance towards the nearest enemy unit. As yet the details are sketchy.
- All the current special characters (ie: Helbrect and Grimaldius) will remain. Also I had heard of an mention of a special character who is like the greatest of all of the Emperor's Champions and the greatest warrior in the Black Templars. I had heard mention of a bike mounted special character with a lance like weapon but I cannot confirm this yet.


From Warseer

QUOTE

Certain units to get Rage USR is one I've heard repeatedly. (foolishly didn't see the first post... oops!)
Sword Brethren are to get a special rule where when they are assaulted the enemy unit has to re-roll all* successful hits, at the expense of 1 attack. It's called "parry".
Land Raiders, when suffering a 5 or 6 on the damage chart* (so "wrecked" or "destroyed") gets one more turn where it rampage, think along the lines of the machine spirit going bezerk.
No horses as far as I am aware, bikes would be the direction (if any at all) for riding knights.
There is a named Emperor's Champion, he's meant to be the longest living EC in the Black Templars history, or somesuch.

*I'll seek clarification as it doesn't quite seem right in my head.



From JvK on Phil Kelly being our author

QUOTE

The Tau codex belongs to Cruddace, lets get that fact straight. That is all I am going to say on that issue.
Black Templars on the other hand was always going to be Phil Kelly's pet project. The only way Ward or Cruddace would ever get the Black Templars codex off him would be to prise the rough drafts out from his cold...dead...hands.


But later on Nov 28th in response to being asked who is writing

QUOTE

Mr Phil Kelly last time I heard. Though there was talk of moving it over to Mr Cruddace so Mr Kelly can work on something else.



From our own Marshal Laeroth (on various occasions)

QUOTE ( @ May 26 2011, 03:51 AM)

I cannot find the rumor threads stating it (there were several, but I don't have the time to search too deeply). HOWEVER, I do have a friend in the UK that actually met Phil and talked to him about that particular rumor. To which Phil confirmed. I was told that he sounded very enthusiastic about the project, but wouldn't go into details or timelines. Just that he was writing the book and the BT were coming (that could mean 2 years though).

Even without my friend giving me this information, there were those rumor threads (from reliable sources) around someplace. Just have to find them. :/


Rumours that conflict with stuff said about from Warseer

QUOTE

5. Tau and BT will get a release soon after CSM; other races updated in 5th will not be updated in 6th as their rules (at least from Guard onwards) are allready suited for 6th. Ward will probably do the BT and might do Tau as well. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armieS that almost no one plays with a separate dex.


From Librarium Online

QUOTE

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?


From our own Bloodcrusade

QUOTE ( @ Nov 29 2011, 12:17 AM)

From the rumors I've been hearing it's more of something along the lines of:

1)Helbrecht(Cheaper with rules to make Sword Brethren either Scoring or Troops)
2)Grimaldus(Rules update)
3)Special Champion
4)Draco(Will be making the transfer from White Dwarf to Codex with rule amendments)

These are the *guaranteed* Special Characters with rumors of:

1) Marshal/Castellan for drop pod armies(Reminiscent of one of our own's Custom Codex, believe it was Sigismund Himself?)
2)Terminator HQ(Allows for termies as scoring or as Troops for 'BlackWing')

Haven't heard anything of being allowed to bring Bikes as Troops if your 'Captain' rides one, which I'm thankful for. There's a Chapter for that and it's White Scars.

Special Units being brought to the Codex:

1)Chaplain Dreadnought(Same reroll hits on charge, probably fealess to all units with-in 6" like Grimaldus)
2)Durandal Dreadnought(Being brought from White Dwarf into the Codex, haven't heard the rules will change- maybe one more base attack?)
3)Assault Rhino Chassis(Been rumored/hoped for a long time, whether from the Rhino or a new vehicle on it's chassis)

Haven't heard about any special Bikes or Cavalry unit, which is unfortunate as I'm looking forward to a Cav unit myself. Allowing Luduldos to become a bring-able Special Character would be quite interesting as he would be taken in more of my lists than Helbrecht as he is a much more likely Character to allow Sword Brethren as Troops than Helbrecht.



From Librarium Online. This guy IIRC, is pretty good with his rumors.....

QUOTE ('Jared van Kell')

Possible release date of March 3rd if the source holds true


by ghost21 on Warseer

QUOTE

expect bt to be the landraider spam army


By Commissar Davis on Warseer

QUOTE

This is as much supposition as rumour. But from what I have gathered from dark places, the Black Templars as going to be very close to how they are in the FFG books. The Caestus will have an entry and there is the possibility that troops will be able to take bikes (and attack bikes) and jump packs if they don't take Neophytes.

Assault Marines and bikers get a few extra options that make them nasty.

Elites are points sinks, but very nice point sinks... lots of toys and adaptability.

Emperors Champion gets some buffs, but is not much more than he is now except he can target unit leaders, like good ol' Sarge.

Thats about it.

*Another user notes how that would leave the FA slots bare... to which Davis replied..*

From what I was able to take way from a few different dark corners, they wouldn't get all the upgrades. This could also be tosh.

Add salt... The guys are usually, mostly, on the ball (once they point out what they meant). Its generally in the guise of pointers and no straight answers, thus a fair bit of supposition on my part, and includes some guess work of their own.

If they said there was a custard dessert, it could be that its a tray with custard power with plastic cacti, or it could be a dessert with custard, or sometimes they are wrong and there is no custard at all but are right about there being dessert and visa versa.


By Mirbeau In Reply to the above quote


QUOTE

No Caestus coming. Doesn't mean you can't use the forge world miniature/rules though. Little to no empthasis on jump packs either afaik.

*then in another post commenting that Tau are the last 5th ed codex..*

Templars first! I do believe Tau to be the last, or one of the first books though. On my radar Templars, Tau, Chaos.

Eldar I'm not expecting (in book form) till 2013. I have no idea as to the contents of the september starter box, so I suppose there is a chance they could be in that, mind.


By Marshal Laeroth in regards to Assault Rhinos

QUOTE

That has been a rumor on my radar for some time (from my own sources), but it doesn't sound like its going to come to pass. Sounds like it got chopped in the playtesting stage.


On release date

QUOTE (Trignama @ Dec 18 2011, 02:28 AM)

So finally got to go to my local game store today, and had a talk with the manager. The discussion led to whether or not he knew of anything about the Templars. He told me
"From what I've been told the next marine book is out in Jan. But I don't know which Chapter, although it is probably Templars."

I dunno how viable information from him can be, but he sounded pretty confident about Jan. Having a release.... take it as you will.





Summary as of 12/5/11


•Phil Kelly as the author, only minor reports of Ward/Cruddace being it instead
•Sword Brethren and Neophytes kits or at least new models for them
•Possible new "siege" weapon. ala Dreadknight level of gimmickness
•Possbile new unit/vehicle that relates to "Fantasy" stuff..... (this is very vague, could allude to above rumour)
•Possible new Dreadnought, be it Chappy, Durandal, or Relic
•Cheaper points cost rumours and others lead to Horde focus of sorts
•Very likely it will be the next codex to be released, Rumored March-May
•Rage USR (or something similar) seems to make its way in with/for RZ
•Current characters will return, with new ones (pretty much a given nowadays)
•Special EC, greatest swordsman ever/oldest serving EC
•Possible new abilties for Land Raiders and Sword Brethren

*edit* Dec 31 2011

From Harry on Warseer: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5997529#post5997529

Originally Posted by Pa1adin111
Just want you guys to know that I'm still searching high and low for new BT rumors, the problem is that every site I go to seems to have a copy and paste of this thread. If any of the venerable rumor sources out there (ghost, mr pie, stickmonkey ect...) pick up anything new we'd love to hear from you
Well it is only a small thing but it is quite a big thing if it is accurate. I say 'If' as I heard it quite a long time ago (well over a year ago and I am a bit fuzzy on the details) But I think I picked up that Jes was working on Black Templars possibly with Juan Diaz or Seb Perbet?

Which are some nice names to throw around for any army. Wouldn't you agree?

*edit* January 20 2012

From Sasori on page 10. Thanks for the update Sasori.

Hmm, there is something interesting here

http://www.blacklibrary.com/Blog/In_the_grim_Darkness.html

May or may not have anything to do with the BT release.

So....spikey marines, then loyal crazy marines, AND THEN Tau if these rumors be true

Xenos never get a break huh?

But hordey marines sounds fun, love all the crazy shenanigans they pull off right now. Hope theres some decent vows to take

Its about time :-)

I must say, that as a Templar player, I hope the part about them being more horde oriented is false. Then again, I've always preferred Crusader / Vindicator combos and drop pod Templar over foot slog Templar.

Davor wrote:Sword Brethren are to get a special rule where when they are assaulted the enemy unit has to re-roll all* successful hits, at the expense of 1 attack. It's called "parry".

This sounds like a fantastic and characterful special rule. Makes total sense for Sword Brethren to be the only unit in the game with the ability to "parry". I think they should have another special rule "dodge" that allows them to ignore successful hits on a 6. If you give them a storm shield then they can use their "block" special rule which gives a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save in close combat. They also have "tie shoelaces" which gives them +1 Initiative.

It takes a lot of training to be able to parry with chainsaw swords!

Wow, black Templars were the first Army I wanted to collect, I honestly can't wait for the new book, hopefully the rules will be better this time XD

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Davor wrote:Sword Brethren are to get a special rule where when they are assaulted the enemy unit has to re-roll all* successful hits, at the expense of 1 attack. It's called "parry".

This sounds like a fantastic and characterful special rule. Makes total sense for Sword Brethren to be the only unit in the game with the ability to "parry". I think they should have another special rule "dodge" that allows them to ignore successful hits on a 6. If you give them a storm shield then they can use their "block" special rule which gives a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save in close combat. They also have "tie shoelaces" which gives them +1 Initiative.

Can't tell if serious.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I think they should have another special rule "dodge" that allows them to ignore successful hits on a 6.

Wyches and Ragnar say hi

I hope they introduce a few more named characters and vows.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and a plastic Sword Brethren and termie Sword Brethren kit (terminators with tabards would be awesome, as would plastic Sword Brethren with parts to make all the kit they can take, like lightning claws).

OMG YES I LOVE THIS POST

Dear Emperor, I hope it's Kelly and not that Matt Ward (the son of a ).

There may be hope for those of us who Know No Spiritual Liege (I'd so make that a universal special rule for MEQ).

tau-caste wrote:I was talking to one of my local gw's employees and he said the most common problem with BT is the fact that it cost close to double the cost of a regular marine army because of having to get the chapter upgrade separate! He said he wouldn't be surprised if they got the BT tactical squad like what they had when they were first released as well as stuff that has been mentioned such as plastic sword brethren etc. Although he didnt even know they had a BT tactical squad etc when they were initially released.
(...)
The guy i spoke to pretty much said they would be soon. he tried not to be too outward about it though. Just saying stuff like 'now that necrons are done, BT and Tau have to be done soon because they are fairly outdated (armoury system)'. And he said that BT players had it worst out of any army due to costs etc as every other marine army now has atleast one plastic box whereas BT have none (talking about actual squad boxes). He also seemed to favour that Tau wouldnt be next because he used the usual release schedule of having a marine army after other armies. He didnt seem to keen on it being Dark Angels soon, and these were his exact words, 'because DA players can use the normal Marine codex and play a fairly competitive list, but BT have trouble doing that'.

but BT have trouble doing that'.

WTF, Black templars can use the marine codex just as well as dark angels WTF is he talking about?

He means that the Dark Angels' structure is very similar to that of a Codex Chapter, meaning that a DA player using the standard Marine 'Dex isn't that much of a stretch. The Templars on the other hand are very much a non-Codex Chapter, and thus attempting to 'Counts As' them with the standard Marine 'Dex really wouldn't capture what the army is about.

gendoikari87 wrote:

but BT have trouble doing that'.

WTF, Black templars can use the marine codex just as well as dark angels WTF is he talking about?

Oh really?

The (ultra)marine codex portrays the codex astartes followers...
which the Templars are not.

BT and upgrade sprues isn't so expensive, look at the new 5 models = price of a squad box of 10.
As nice as the new kits are, you can't use them to build more than 5 models plus some spare bitz for later conversions.
A upgrade to alter the basic tac marine box OtoH could provide more bang for less buck.
New kits used for squads of 10 easily scratch the 60€ mark. A established kit plus 2 upgrade sprues at 30+15 € .....
2 boxes of 10 marines plus 1 upgrade grants enough diversity and 3x30 beats 4x30 € ( GW ).

The (ultra)marine codex portrays the codex astartes followers...

that's fluff reasons. The actual codex works just fine for portraying Black templars. Which is a lot more than Eldar, Tau, CSM, or daemons have. Err.... okay CSM have space wolves.... but you get my point.

But that box comes with a bunch of templar Rhino/Land Raider doors, which were a bad idea to make in the first place (GW was trying to be Forge World, made an expensive plastic mould that didn't sell well, and then sensibly switched to big icons you can stick on the doors rather than making the doors themselves).

I love the Templar upgrade sprue, but it's going the way of the dodo when the next BT 'Dex hits. We're going to get a 5-man-for-price-of-10 box, or if we're lucky something that includes Scouts in the box as well as Marines.


[EDIT]: Read my post again gendoikari87. That's what was meant in Kroothawk's post.

gendoikari87 wrote:

The (ultra)marine codex portrays the codex astartes followers...

that's fluff reasons. The actual codex works just fine for portraying Black templars. Which is a lot more than Eldar, Tau, CSM, or daemons have. Err.... okay CSM have space wolves.... but you get my point.

The background is all we have to base those heaps of plastic formed into creatures and vehicles on.
Without it, there is no 40k verse, no reason to have a war at all....

The codex blue marines, isn't able to do a good job on anything than sons of Gullyman.
BT don't follow the structure of this codex.

If you request Eldar and Tau to accept Gullyman as their spiritual liege, so be it.
But IMO those 2 are waiting for their own new dex...and both are rather small factions in 40k.

CSM, especially the renegades, are already space marines and those oathbreakers who come from G-mans geneseed, why don't they just get a set of different combat tatics ( in WD ) and use the codex ?

H.B.M.C. wrote:But that box comes with a bunch of templar Rhino/Land Raider doors, which were a bad idea to make in the first place (GW was trying to be Forge World, made an expensive plastic mould that didn't sell well, and then sensibly switched to big icons you can stick on the doors rather than making the doors themselves).
.

Agreed we may lose the upgrades and get more 5 models at the price of 10 kits.
I still don't see this as an option if they want a higher bodycount than usual for BT.
One of the greatest mistakes was to reduce IG from 20 man basic infantry in a box.

structure is irrelevant, i'm talking rules. How your force is organized into different chapters and how many chapters has no bearing on the table top, BT can use codex Marines just as well as Dark angels, in fact Black templar are BETTER AT USING THE STANDARD CODEX. Simply because the standard codex can't do deathwing. Other than the champion, and the running rule theres almost no difference in the standard marine book and the templars. Even neophytes can simply be scouts.

gendoikari87 wrote:structure is irrelevant, i'm talking rules. How your force is organized into different chapters and how many chapters has no bearing on the table top, BT can use codex Marines just as well as Dark angels, in fact Black templar are BETTER AT USING THE STANDARD CODEX. Simply because the standard codex can't do deathwing. Other than the champion, and the running rule theres almost no difference in the standard marine book and the templars. Even neophytes can simply be scouts.

Excuse me if I'm missing something, but when did the SM book allow you to intermingle Scouts and Tactical Marines into one unit? Last I heard, that's a key "character" feature of the BT. IIRC (and I accept that I might not be, as it has been a while since I looked at the BT book), they don't do independent Neophyte units, with the possible exception of Bikers.

I agree that the SM book has issues with producing a Deathwing list - I would have included Ravenwing, though I might be wrong there - but your general DA army works as well (or better) from the SM book than a BT one would do.

gendoikari87 wrote:structure is irrelevant, i'm talking rules. How your force is organized into different chapters and how many chapters has no bearing on the table top, BT can use codex Marines just as well as Dark angels, in fact Black templar are BETTER AT USING THE STANDARD CODEX. Simply because the standard codex can't do deathwing. Other than the champion, and the running rule theres almost no difference in the standard marine book and the templars. Even neophytes can simply be scouts.

Tell me, did you even browse the BT dex?

Rules are based on abilities imagined in-universe, thus without background there are zero rules...

On the tabletop, BT:
- crusader squads. up to 20 models. LRC option.
> built that from codex SM...
- termie command squad. LRC option.
> build this from codex SM...
- command squad of 10 marines. LRC option.
> build this from codex SM
- EC not part of the FOC but possible mandatory HQ. Alters the army.
> build this from codex SM
- may transport almost every unit in a dedicated transport LRC and fill the table with Land Raiders if the size of the game allows.

Seems you can't build the HQ squads and the basic troop choice from codex SM. Pretty much shows the weakness of your claims.

Non codex marines are the most viable choice for a standalone codex.
I don't need BT soon. But I am not going to have them squatted just because some can't stand the idea of the faction who is the main actor of the setup to have 50% of the codices.

-crusader squads. up to 20 models. LRC option.

1 tactical squad in a LRC
1 Scout squad

-termie command squad. LRC option.

honor guard squad or terminator squad with attached IC.

- command squad of 10 marines. LRC option.

Honor guard squad

- EC not part of the FOC but possible mandatory HQ. Alters the army.

Special characters.

- may transport almost every unit in a dedicated transport LRC and fill the table with Land Raiders if the size of the game allows.

irrelevant, normal marines can do this. If you get into games above 3 land raiders your already talking about apoc. And if the rumors are true with the standard dex you can take 4 anyway.


You sir, are splitting hairs.

Black templars can and should be rolled into the Space marine dex, along side dark angels so that the armies that are unique can have some time, and so new armies can come around. like an army that really deserves it, Admech.

gendoikari87 wrote:

-crusader squads. up to 20 models. LRC option.

1 tactical squad in a LRC
1 Scout squad

2 x Troops isn't the same as 1 combined squad.

gendoikari87 wrote:

-termie command squad. LRC option.

honor guard squad or terminator squad with attached IC.

Still different wargear and/or less members. No LRC and TDA in case of honor guard..

gendoikari87 wrote:

- command squad of 10 marines. LRC option.

Honor guard squad

Do you spot the options of the command squad or a LRC there?

gendoikari87 wrote:

- EC not part of the FOC but possible mandatory HQ. Alters the army.

Special characters.

Oh great, please tell who is it?

gendoikari87 wrote:

- may transport almost every unit in a dedicated transport LRC and fill the table with Land Raiders if the size of the game allows.

irrelevant, normal marines can do this. If you get into games above 3 land raiders your already talking about apoc. And if the rumors are true with the standard dex you can take 4 anyway.

4 is too few.

gendoikari87 wrote:
You sir, are splitting hairs.

Black templars can and should be rolled into the Space marine dex, along side dark angels so that the armies that are unique can have some time, and so new armies can come around. like an army that really deserves it, Admech.

You sir, should stop these futile evasive maneuvers to get away with your idea.
Its not a secret why codices are as they are, and the choice is not yours to be made.
You have proven nothing, except the fact its most likely always the same questionable claims that this or that could "easily" be rolled into one dex. I've challenged the posters who think its possible to do so before and I offer you the same.
Provide us with a basic layout of this 'all-encompassing' codex in Proposed Rules, but make sure it includes everything the armies had before.
My guess is, you end up either telling me you don't have the time or failing at it. Underestimating the effort to write and plan such a book
is forgivable. But the nonsense of the lack of uniqueness is tiresome. No army is based on that "uniqueness". 40k is a copy of fantasy in space and thats where those armies come from.
GW may focus on WHFB or LotR whenever they feel like it and it doens't matter which 40k codex isn't done as they may just do another non-40k release instead. So this crap of codices replacing each other in the schedule of GW, isn't true.
New armies are said to come after everything is on the same page, thus far away.
If this is still correct.

I for one, am content to wait for BT. I don't want them at the end of a edition, nor do I have any interest in the actual trend of taking themes to far. They can stay in "reserve" to deepstrike at YOUR oh so deserving , oh so unique army, in his name!

So I read a rumor on failcast neophytes. It coudl be in OP, I didn't read it that closely. That would be dumb for GW to do... its called a scout box with some black paint.

And for the upgrade box, I hope they keep it. I got the boxes to stretch out pretty far. Every single marine of my current list has at least 1 BT bit on it.

1hadhq wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

-crusader squads. up to 20 models. LRC option.

1 tactical squad in a LRC
1 Scout squad

2 x Troops isn't the same as 1 combined squad.

gendoikari87 wrote:

-termie command squad. LRC option.

honor guard squad or terminator squad with attached IC.

Still different wargear and/or less members. No LRC and TDA in case of honor guard..

gendoikari87 wrote:

- command squad of 10 marines. LRC option.

Honor guard squad

Do you spot the options of the command squad or a LRC there?

gendoikari87 wrote:

- EC not part of the FOC but possible mandatory HQ. Alters the army.

Special characters.

Oh great, please tell who is it?

gendoikari87 wrote:

- may transport almost every unit in a dedicated transport LRC and fill the table with Land Raiders if the size of the game allows.

irrelevant, normal marines can do this. If you get into games above 3 land raiders your already talking about apoc. And if the rumors are true with the standard dex you can take 4 anyway.

4 is too few.

gendoikari87 wrote:
You sir, are splitting hairs.

Black templars can and should be rolled into the Space marine dex, along side dark angels so that the armies that are unique can have some time, and so new armies can come around. like an army that really deserves it, Admech.

You sir, should stop these futile evasive maneuvers to get away with your idea.
Its not a secret why codices are as they are, and the choice is not yours to be made.
You have proven nothing, except the fact its most likely always the same questionable claims that this or that could "easily" be rolled into one dex. I've challenged the posters who think its possible to do so before and I offer you the same.
Provide us with a basic layout of this 'all-encompassing' codex in Proposed Rules, but make sure it includes everything the armies had before.
My guess is, you end up either telling me you don't have the time or failing at it. Underestimating the effort to write and plan such a book
is forgivable. But the nonsense of the lack of uniqueness is tiresome. No army is based on that "uniqueness". 40k is a copy of fantasy in space and thats where those armies come from.
GW may focus on WHFB or LotR whenever they feel like it and it doens't matter which 40k codex isn't done as they may just do another non-40k release instead. So this crap of codices replacing each other in the schedule of GW, isn't true.
New armies are said to come after everything is on the same page, thus far away.
If this is still correct.

I for one, am content to wait for BT. I don't want them at the end of a edition, nor do I have any interest in the actual trend of taking themes to far. They can stay in "reserve" to deepstrike at YOUR oh so deserving , oh so unique army, in his name!

If you look splitting hairs up in the dictionary this post will be there.

You do know that Crusader squads can swap bolters for pistols/ccw's right?!
Sorry but Templars & Dark Angels (you know, the first fething Legion!) are more than divergent enough to warrent their own books.

If you want your admech so badly, codex: smurfs does them adequitely enough too!
HQ: master of the forge
Elites: dreads = preatorian serivtors. techmarines + servitor retinues.
Troops: scouts = skittari
Fast: ??? scout bikers = skittari bikes? land speeders.
Heavy: more dreads, predators, devies = heavy gun servitors, land raiders.

Guard also works as a good list for admech armies, or so can newcrons too... Now please show me outside of their actual 'dexes how the hell you're supposed to build 'actual' crusader squads and 'actual' deathwing squads?!! (answer = you can't! )

Admech don't need a codex and there's no room on store shelves for it either!

Experiment 626 wrote:You do know that Crusader squads can swap bolters for pistols/ccw's right?!

This. Try doing 6 squads of Bolt Pistol/CC marines with melta and powerfist led by an emperors champion who gives army wide Preferred Enemy with the vanilla marine dex.

A) splitting hairs
B) Space wolves/blood angels

Admech don't need a codex and there's no room on store shelves for it either!

Sure there is we can drop Black templars all together. OR blood angels. Or hell dark angels. Admech is VASTLY different from Codex smurfs than Black templars. All you need to do to Codex smurfs is paint your smurfs black. No so with admech. Not that it can't be done, but it's a lot less intuitive. I personally use the grey knights codex. So even something as vastly different as admech can be done with codex smurfs, Admech is much more divergent from smurfs than Black templars. Therefore blacktemplars are not the one that deserve a codex drop them.

so you're agument can actually be used against you.

I can't wait for the Templar and I don't even play them. I just want to see them pay full points for typhoons and have cyclones reduced to 1 per 5 terminators without tank hunter.... LOL, I think they are going to lose out upon the rewrite, enjoy the glory days while they last boys....

Also, if these guys get space knights with lances on bikes I think I will cry laughing, I mean they already have wolves riding wolves and space vamps with angel wings.... omg...

Looking fowads to this! Really hope the rumours are accurate!

gendoikari87 wrote:[stuff...]

BT currently exist as a dex, get over it.

gendoikari87 wrote:so you're agument

This is a pretty bizarre conclusion. I'm fairly sure he isn't an argument at all.

So does this mean it is almost time for a new DA codex as well? Or will they get rolled into a SM codex?

DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

As a long time BT player, this is what I have been waiting for. They have come a long way from their Armageddon entry, and even their 3rd edition SM codex EC special character. I look forward for their new codex and the loads of fluff to go along with it.

Apparently the rummored plastic sword brethren are drop dead amazing! I just hope there's a few arms sans chains as I'd love to use these new models for some Knights of Blood & Fire Hawks conversions.

Dark Angels I have a feeling will take longer as GW needs to re-define them yet again... (because they keep handing out all their unique stuff to everyone else!) Templars on the other hand are a 'quick fix', just add a couple new units and bring over the other new toys such as the redeemer and bring the rest of the rules into line with 6th. Done!

Considering my VC's come out in January, I'm kinda hoping Templars wait a few months so I can save up some more $$$!

H.B.M.C. wrote:DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

I just hope DA come out soon. Not because I play DA but because I use a lot of DA bits. The robes are about as good as you get for mass secutor conversions, without making them yourself.

I'm planning on starting a BT army In the new year once I have a job and some income, hope these are accurate :/

gendoikari87 wrote:

-crusader squads. up to 20 models. LRC option.

1 tactical squad in a LRC
1 Scout squad

-termie command squad. LRC option.

honor guard squad or terminator squad with attached IC.

- command squad of 10 marines. LRC option.

Honor guard squad

- EC not part of the FOC but possible mandatory HQ. Alters the army.

Special characters.

- may transport almost every unit in a dedicated transport LRC and fill the table with Land Raiders if the size of the game allows.

irrelevant, normal marines can do this. If you get into games above 3 land raiders your already talking about apoc. And if the rumors are true with the standard dex you can take 4 anyway.


You sir, are splitting hairs.

Black templars can and should be rolled into the Space marine dex, along side dark angels so that the armies that are unique can have some time, and so new armies can come around. like an army that really deserves it, Admech.

Hey, I didn't feel the need to quote your other posts, because they're all the same.

I'll ask you kindly, please go back and relax under your bridge.

gendoikari87 wrote:
Black templars can and should be rolled into the Space marine dex, along side dark angels so that the armies that are unique can have some time, and so new armies can come around. like an army that really deserves it, Admech.

Yes, and clearly CSM should be rolled into the Marine dex too, while we're at it, and just have Abby as a special character that can use daemons from that other codex as troops. After all, all space marines must bow before their spiritual liege!

I'd like to take a moment on behalf of the rest of the players wanting an admech list and say we have no idea who this guy is, but he clearly has no idea how BT lists are played.

BaronIveagh wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:
Black templars can and should be rolled into the Space marine dex, along side dark angels so that the armies that are unique can have some time, and so new armies can come around. like an army that really deserves it, Admech.

Yes, and clearly CSM should be rolled into the Marine dex too, while we're at it, and just have Abby as a special character that can use daemons from that other codex as troops. After all, all space marines must bow before their spiritual liege!

I'd like to take a moment on behalf of the rest of the players wanting an admech list and say we have no idea who this guy is, but he clearly has no idea how BT lists are played.

I was going to suggest the CSM being rolled in. Maybe Ward can write the The Fallen fist bumping with the DA too.

And it is okay, we don't blame you for him.

With regard to a new dex's models, the following IMHO would be awesome: Crusader squad (ten plastic BT marines with the option of taking all bp and ccw or bolters. These weapons and the marines themselves are BT style, with tabards shoulder pads, chains on weapons and crusaders seals), Sword brethren plastic set with storm shields, lightning claws.etc. (to make SB more effective than they are now, they should be more like current DA vets) and BT themed termies with tabards .etc. In summary, like SW have their own specialised plastic termies and tactical squads (I don't know their real name), likewise the BT should have themed sets.

I imagine (not that GW would do this) that a single box could make Crusader, Command, and SB all in one. The Bretheren are just different heads and shoulders with little details that could be bits.

raknosha wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

Davor wrote:Sword Brethren are to get a special rule where when they are assaulted the enemy unit has to re-roll all* successful hits, at the expense of 1 attack. It's called "parry".

This sounds like a fantastic and characterful special rule. Makes total sense for Sword Brethren to be the only unit in the game with the ability to "parry". I think they should have another special rule "dodge" that allows them to ignore successful hits on a 6. If you give them a storm shield then they can use their "block" special rule which gives a +1 bonus to their invulnerable save in close combat. They also have "tie shoelaces" which gives them +1 Initiative.

Can't tell if serious.

My first army 2 years ago was Black Templar, I have seen plenty of changes to them even with really starting the game with 5th edition. The lastest FAQ was the best thing that could have happened to them. But I feel the glory days are soon to be over.

Stuff we lose:
I see vows being redone and sucking.
I see preferred enemy flat out disappearing.
I see Rage causing more problems than helping.
I see the "hordes" mentality failing miserably.
I see Blessed Hull going away completely.
I see the usefulness of Typhoons going right out the window.
I see Power of the Machine Spirit being taken away from Predators and Vindicators.
I see the best terminators in the game going to crap. (Taking away Furious Charge and Peferred Enemy)
There are prolly more of these but don't feel like writing them all out.

Stuff we gain:
Sure they might give us the ablity to swap out more then 1-2 weapons with Crusader squads.
Rhinos might not cost 58 points.
Sword Bretheran can actually be "useful"
We gain, 1 special character.

All of the unique things about the Black Templar they already have. We have units that cost more than others, we have units that cost less than others.

If the "horde" mentality comes though for this Codex, you will see a pro painted 3000 points of Black Templar up on Ebay.

I have been playing my Templars since before they had a true Codex and I can tell you, I won't get rid of them if they change them.

Right now, with a combination of legacy rules and the FAQ; Black Templars can perform insanely well even against the most competitive 5th edition armies. I see that a new Codex would probably fix things, but in the end, change is good and stagnation gets old.

If the newer codexes are any example, I'm sure Templars would either get access to most of the new stuff and/or getting their own new stuff. I've set my Templars aside for now, but I have no intentions to ever sell them. I plan to get right back to playing them as soon as the new Codex is released and I can fix the army to adhere to the newer stuff. That's the main reason I haven't been working on mine anymore, is I would rather not have to potentially fix models in the future due to better wargear choices or things taken away etc...

Let's just hope Terminators stay the same because I've got 30 Templar Terminators....

Anybody think they'll have a chance of getting the storm raven...

Just a random thought XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would finaly give me a reason to get one XD

It will be a shame when my Typhoons stop being awesome, as they no doubt will be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and my chainswords stop rerolling to hits.

LazzurusMan wrote:Anybody think they'll have a chance of getting the storm raven...

Just a random thought XD


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Would finaly give me a reason to get one XD

They better, it's the only reason I am holding on to 3 and a 4th (to convert to a t-hawk maybe)

It would be awesome...^^

H.B.M.C. wrote:DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

Honestly if the 6th ed Marine dex gave me a way to accurately portray DW and RW then I wouldn't care if they got rolled into the same book. It would clean up the release cycle (one less dex to worry about) and make it so that one doesn't get nerfed while the other gets stronger every few years.

Banzaimash wrote:It will be a shame when my Typhoons stop being awesome, as they no doubt will be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
... and my chainswords stop rerolling to hits.

...or all of your Daemon units become a separate list and you can't play your army remotely the same. Oh wait.

I may just be a vindictive jerk, but I kind of want non-DA Imperial players to get screwed for once.

I would be quite annoyed if the Legion book gets pushed back for another loyalist chapter. Seriously guys, I want a new Chaos Codex!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ozymandias wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

Honestly if the 6th ed Marine dex gave me a way to accurately portray DW and RW then I wouldn't care if they got rolled into the same book. It would clean up the release cycle (one less dex to worry about) and make it so that one doesn't get nerfed while the other gets stronger every few years.

Isn't there that White Scars guy who makes Bikes troops? Then you have the FA slots open for Landspeeders. I hope this doesn't sound too ignorant, but what else does a Ravenwing army need?

LazzurusMan wrote:Anybody think they'll have a chance of getting the storm raven...

All marines will get it eventually...

CT GAMER wrote:

LazzurusMan wrote:Anybody think they'll have a chance of getting the storm raven...

All marines will get it eventually...

And then nobody will want it :/

Rumors abound after I start building my own BT army, great. As for them and my beloved DA being rolled into the SM codex, that's such a bad idea not even GW would consider it.

Ill be happy if they give them power swords and storm shields. Id seriously consider collecting them if that were to happen.

I'm with you on the "just starting" bit, but I wont have the funds until the new book comes out anyway, so :/

Anung Un Rama wrote:

Ozymandias wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

Honestly if the 6th ed Marine dex gave me a way to accurately portray DW and RW then I wouldn't care if they got rolled into the same book. It would clean up the release cycle (one less dex to worry about) and make it so that one doesn't get nerfed while the other gets stronger every few years.

Isn't there that White Scars guy who makes Bikes troops? Then you have the FA slots open for Landspeeders. I hope this doesn't sound too ignorant, but what else does a Ravenwing army need?

Some synergy with other DA units (like teleport homers on bikes), attack bikes as troops, Sammael in his Speeder, and some sort of buff (jink, skilled rider in 3rd ed, scout in 4th ed). You could do it similar to Khan with Sammael as the unlocking special character unit.

Roguejm11 wrote:My first army 2 years ago was Black Templar, I have seen plenty of changes to them even with really starting the game with 5th edition. The lastest FAQ was the best thing that could have happened to them. But I feel the glory days are soon to be over.

Stuff we lose:
I see vows being redone and sucking.
I see preferred enemy flat out disappearing.
I see Rage causing more problems than helping.
I see the "hordes" mentality failing miserably.
I see Blessed Hull going away completely.
I see the usefulness of Typhoons going right out the window.
I see Power of the Machine Spirit being taken away from Predators and Vindicators.
I see the best terminators in the game going to crap. (Taking away Furious Charge and Peferred Enemy)
There are prolly more of these but don't feel like writing them all out.

Stuff we gain:
Sure they might give us the ablity to swap out more then 1-2 weapons with Crusader squads.
Rhinos might not cost 58 points.
Sword Bretheran can actually be "useful"
We gain, 1 special character.

All of the unique things about the Black Templar they already have. We have units that cost more than others, we have units that cost less than others.

If the "horde" mentality comes though for this Codex, you will see a pro painted 3000 points of Black Templar up on Ebay.

The pessimism is strong in this one. Knows the entire Codex already, she does. Waiting for threads like these to pop up, I cannot.


*Ahem*

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Because the imp fits are a codex chapter...they are basically smurfs in yellow armour...or so I believe :/

Ozymandias wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:DA won't get rolled into the Marine Codex due to legacy issues. That's the only reason.

Honestly if the 6th ed Marine dex gave me a way to accurately portray DW and RW then I wouldn't care if they got rolled into the same book. It would clean up the release cycle (one less dex to worry about) and make it so that one doesn't get nerfed while the other gets stronger every few years.

I think I may need to revoke your Green Marine card.

KplKeegan wrote:
The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

After the incident with the Iron Cage, and the rebuilding of the Imperial Fists, Rogal Dorn came to embrace the Codex Astartes and set out to make his Legion (chapter by that point) another shining example of it's effectiveness. Black Templars became a crusading Chapter, quite different from what the Fists became.

Many armies were involved in the same crusades and are structured under the codex astartes, just because they crusade doesn't mean they have to be structured differently.

A tad off topic but it annoyed me in C:SM that the second founding Crimson Fists got a character and option and the Iron Hands were the only first founding to be ignored.... I thought this was very strange.

At the risk of being berated I hope they get a drastic change to their structure, one fitting a separate codex or I really don't see they point in making another assault army with LR's as dedicated transports and storm ravens... essentially Blood Angels 2.0 with a knightly sub theme....

Red Corsair wrote:
At the risk of being berated I hope they get a drastic change to their structure, one fitting a separate codex or I really don't see they point in making another assault army with LR's as dedicated transports and storm ravens... essentially Blood Angels 2.0 with a knightly sub theme....

Not going to berate you, but I think it'd be the other way around, with Blood Angels being Black Templar 2.0, at least as far as the LR dedicated transports go. Black Templars had them for their basic squads first.

KplKeegan wrote:

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Its simple really. Black Templars scheme is simple; black primer and a touch of white...easy. That and the fact that BT's had awesome rules when they got their fist army list. Instead of falling backward when taking casualties they fell forwards into combat. The Emperor's Champion had a sword that could count as a power fist when you wanted it too. It was awesome. The army list, simple paint scheme and the exposure they got from being on the cover of the 3rd edition box set; made Templars very popular. GW rightly capitalized of the army's popularity. I doubt their being 2nd founding rather than one of the original legions has ever be a factor to anyone but fans.

Sersi wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Its simple really. Black Templars scheme is simple; black primer and a touch of white...easy. That and the fact that BT's had awesome rules when they got their fist army list. Instead of falling backward when taking casualties they fell forwards into combat. The Emperor's Champion had a sword that could count as a power fist when you wanted it too. It was awesome. The army list, simple paint scheme and the exposure they got from being on the cover of the 3rd edition box set; made Templars very popular. GW rightly capitalized of the army's popularity. I doubt their being 2nd founding rather than one of the original legions has ever be a factor to anyone but fans.

This is true, but you have to admit the whole BT shtick in the background (constant crusade, unorthodox structure, knightly fanatacism) is fairly different and bloody cool. To everyone saying that they are not a first founding chapter: that is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both cool, I was also surprised that Iron Hands particularly weren't mentioned in the SM codex. But there shouldn't be a rule that the 9 original chapters must get the most love. The importance of history and bygone glory is a big trope in fantasy, but it is possible for a younger organisation to grow out of its parent's shadow. Especially after 10,000 years.

ghost21 wrote:Relic dreadnoughts, like a mobile requiary bearer... is what I had heard

If you really think about it, the legacy of the Imperial Fists is one of the most fleshed out of all the First Founding. Two of their 2nd founding chapters are highly involved in the 40k game universe with Crimson Fists and Black Templars both getting significant attention through their places in Codex: Space Marines, and their own codex. And the later retconned to be a 2nd founding chapter the Soul Drinkers having a successful Black Library run.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:

Sersi wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:

The Black Templars do need a new Codex, though its kind of strange that a second founding gets a Codex and not the Imperial Fists? Not to rock the boat or anything, but does anyone know why?

Its simple really. Black Templars scheme is simple; black primer and a touch of white...easy. That and the fact that BT's had awesome rules when they got their fist army list. Instead of falling backward when taking casualties they fell forwards into combat. The Emperor's Champion had a sword that could count as a power fist when you wanted it too. It was awesome. The army list, simple paint scheme and the exposure they got from being on the cover of the 3rd edition box set; made Templars very popular. GW rightly capitalized of the army's popularity. I doubt their being 2nd founding rather than one of the original legions has ever be a factor to anyone but fans.

This is true, but you have to admit the whole BT shtick in the background (constant crusade, unorthodox structure, knightly fanatacism) is fairly different and bloody cool. To everyone saying that they are not a first founding chapter: that is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both cool, I was also surprised that Iron Hands particularly weren't mentioned in the SM codex. But there shouldn't be a rule that the 9 original chapters must get the most love. The importance of history and bygone glory is a big trope in fantasy, but it is possible for a younger organisation to grow out of its parent's shadow. Especially after 10,000 years.

Especially when said organisation is in fact as old as the "parent". The original Black Templars were Imperial Fists that fought during the Heresy too, remember? Thus, the glories of the Heresy won by the Imperial Fists belong every bit as much to the Templars, Crimson Fists and any other unknown Second Founding Chapter of Dorn's geneseed as it does to the Imperial Fists themselves.

derek wrote:If you really think about it, the legacy of the Imperial Fists is one of the most fleshed out of all the First Founding. Two of their 2nd founding chapters are highly involved in the 40k game universe with Crimson Fists and Black Templars both getting significant attention through their places in Codex: Space Marines, and their own codex. And the later retconned to be a 2nd founding chapter the Soul Drinkers having a successful Black Library run.

IIRC in Phalanx the Souldrinkers were re-retconned again to not being Fists decedents.

And, yes, it's sad, but the Fists are now so Codex that at times i have a hard time not yelling 'Ultramar!' when I want to be saying 'FOR DORN!'

Ironically except in space. The fists seem to be still non-codex in what ships they have access to compared to the Ultramarines.

Some other bits from elsewhere on the internet (Librarium Online)

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?

He may or may not be part of the internal playtest ring GW use to try out different ideas and get feedback or know someone who is. This information is by no means set in stone.
The cheaper scouts is because they lose the Infiltrate, Scout and Move Through Cover USRs and are essentially just Marines with a 4+ armour save. The main drawback is Rage.

BaronIveagh wrote:

derek wrote:If you really think about it, the legacy of the Imperial Fists is one of the most fleshed out of all the First Founding. Two of their 2nd founding chapters are highly involved in the 40k game universe with Crimson Fists and Black Templars both getting significant attention through their places in Codex: Space Marines, and their own codex. And the later retconned to be a 2nd founding chapter the Soul Drinkers having a successful Black Library run.

IIRC in Phalanx the Souldrinkers were re-retconned again to not being Fists decedents.

Possibly, haven't read it yet. Or it could be the Fists trying to disown them.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:
This is true, but you have to admit the whole BT shtick in the background (constant crusade, unorthodox structure, knightly fanatacism) is fairly different and bloody cool. To everyone saying that they are not a first founding chapter: that is a completely arbitrary distinction to make. Iron Hands and Imperial Fists are both cool, I was also surprised that Iron Hands particularly weren't mentioned in the SM codex. But there shouldn't be a rule that the 9 original chapters must get the most love. The importance of history and bygone glory is a big trope in fantasy, but it is possible for a younger organisation to grow out of its parent's shadow. Especially after 10,000 years.

It's probably also worth mentioning that the "first founding legions" stuff came several years after RT and was a little arbitary at best. Of the original Chapters featured in RT, we had Crimson Fists but the Imperial Fists did not exist at all. Nowadays these newcomers, these Johnny-come-latelys, the Imperial Fists get all the attention and coverage..

Fxeni wrote:Some other bits from elsewhere on the internet (Librarium Online)

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?

He may or may not be part of the internal playtest ring GW use to try out different ideas and get feedback or know someone who is. This information is by no means set in stone.
The cheaper scouts is because they lose the Infiltrate, Scout and Move Through Cover USRs and are essentially just Marines with a 4+ armour save. The main drawback is Rage.

I wouldn't believe any of this personally as an 11 point marine would be just [rooster] to the wall bonkers, and Neophytes don't get Scout-Infilitrate-MTC now as they are an upgrade to a regular initiate squad and they still cost 10 points each.

zeshin wrote:

Fxeni wrote:Some other bits from elsewhere on the internet (Librarium Online)

i was down the local GW today, and found some interesting stuff on black templars. so far as the internet says, they're before/after chaos space marines (or legions), before or very shortly after 6th, given that they're current incarnation won't be suitable for 6th. Anyways, what i found out was the following:

there's going to be a named emperors champion, who's old by BT standards, and has been EC for a while. long enough to be better than the standard one.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

there'll be a new named character on a bike with eternal warrior, and also eternal warrior killer.

and possibly some dreadnought/knight style thing that fits with the rest of the army, in line with the big stuff from GK and BA.

oh, last thing, possibly some upgrade that lets land raiders be destroyed by the enemy, but still 'live' for a turn. final shoot and move, the explode in a last ditch suicide run or someut.

I got most of this from a staff member, so take it with a pinch of salt, but this guy's usually pretty accurate with stuff like this....

still, something to think about, isn't it?

He may or may not be part of the internal playtest ring GW use to try out different ideas and get feedback or know someone who is. This information is by no means set in stone.
The cheaper scouts is because they lose the Infiltrate, Scout and Move Through Cover USRs and are essentially just Marines with a 4+ armour save. The main drawback is Rage.

I wouldn't believe any of this personally as an 11 point marine would be just [rooster] to the wall bonkers, and Neophytes don't get Scout-Infilitrate-MTC now as they are an upgrade to a regular initiate squad and they still cost 10 points each.

There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

initiates will be cheaper, around 11 points, and neotyphes around 6pts. still, expect some drawbacks to this.

Sorry, I don't buy this at all. 11 points for a 3+ armor save and 4's across the stat chart is way too cheap.

The draw back is needing to buy $600 worth of product just to field a 1000pt army.
Run the Warmachine points style and make games still average 1500pts.
That's GW's thinking behind making more money in the future.


And screw BT...reading the Tau stuff I want to see those models. I bought them when they first came out and sold them off...but I want single figs that are cool.

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

Maybe it's just the current edition, but Blobs are pretty awful ATM.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

Maybe it's just the current edition, but Blobs are pretty awful ATM.

Didn't say they were good, just horde'y.

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

zeshin wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:There'd obviously be some sort of drawback to 11-point marines. It'd also give the Templars the horde mentality present in the fluff.

Unfortunately I think the drawback would be not actually being marines as their stats would be closer to Tau with a higher WS and I. Also I believe a 15 man squad mobbing out of a LR backed up by a 20+ foot squad with attached characters seems pretty darned horde'y for a marine army as it is.

Maybe it's just the current edition, but Blobs are pretty awful ATM.

Didn't say they were good, just horde'y.

My entire point was that a Templar horde currently is quite subpar and that cheaper marines and scouts with some special rules could go a long way towards making Black Tides dangerous again.

Glad to see some speculation about these guys. They were my first army, and it's been about six years since they last had an update.

Can't really decide how I feel about Phil Kelly writing the codex. It'll be a pretty powerful codex, if his track record with other codices says anything, but I worry about OP units making them a bandwagon army, much like how Space Wolves suddenly appeared everywhere.

Righteous Zeal = Rage? I hope there's a slightly more flavorful aspect to this rumor. Additional SCs will probably happen (most codices have 6-10 these days, it seems), looking forward to seeing how they handle Grimaldus, as he is one of my favorite personalities from the 40K universe.

@kronk: I agree, 11-point Initiates would be [edited] ridiculous [/edited]. It would make Grey Hunters look overpriced. If they keep them as horde infantry, they need to be cheap, but 11-points cheap would regularly see 120+ of them on the field in 1850pts games. Few armies could handle that much cowbell. Maybe they'll be like Blood Claws? That would be pretty interesting, but would make Neophytes redundant. Sword Brethren sound good, hope that "Parry" rule makes it into the final product.

Overall, I hope they keep with the horde infantry theme that they had in the 4th Edition Codex. All other MEQ armies seem to be elite jump/shooty infantry, Deathwing-esque, airborne, or mechanized these days. Here's to hoping that 6th Edition makes infantry-heavy lists have a competitive edge to them again without hitting armor with a nerf bat.

Any word on ETA? If it's the next codex, that would be FANTASTIC. I'd love to see these guys before my EAD.

[edited] Apparently Dakka has a politically correct message composer now? I typed out the correct spelling of a word, and it spat out "slowed". Interesting. [/edited]

Tau Fire Warriors are 10 points a piece. Ah, Space Marines.

Anyways. Agreed on the Zeal > Rage. At least a lil more taste to it would be nice.

If I ever do make the SM plunge it would be with an Emperor's Champion for sure. Those guys are awesome, and I hope they get treated appropriately.

Well isnt this nice, i buy the 4th Ed Codex last week to start making my BT because they just seemed cool fluff wise... and now I'm gonna have to buy a new codex!

But in all seriousness all these rumors sound cool but I hope they don't become the new SW..... When I was at the store I was torn between BT and SW as which codex to buy so I asked the owner what I should do, he said and I quote "Well that all depends. Do you want be one of the guys that get SW because there codex is broken as or do you want to get the BT and be a Space Knight?" I promptly returned the SW codex back to its shelf and walked out with the BT codex.

On a side note I went into the store a few days later and the owner was playing a game.... using SW

you can always return it

Yeah but I'm a collector at heart so I'll just put it on a shelf a feel good about myself for owning it ........

Most of these changes terrify me but I'll just be so happy to have a modern competitive codex with options that I will reserve judgement on it.

I don't see how anyone can complain about getting an upgrade since currently we have strong fluff telling us we are a hand to hand army and that is completely unplayable with the codex we have. That and we have about one competitive build currently...

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:[edited] Apparently Dakka has a politically correct message composer now? I typed out the correct spelling of a word, and it spat out "slowed". Interesting. [/edited]

Hmm... let me test it.

slowed.
slow.

[EDIT]: So that's the word they chose to replace it. Interesting choice, given that only a percentage of those people who are actually... that word... would actually be slow. In fact, that word has a lot of different meanings, not all related to mental stability or mental cognitive growth. It's quite sad that an overly touchy staff has changed a word with multiple meanings into a singular meaning. Personally I think it's more offensive to consider those people 'slow', as not all of them are.

Hmm... what about another test: flame-retardant suit. Ok, that worked. Perhaps I should put one on.

What will I call the stuff I add to my paint to slow the drying now?

Also, kind of neat if they do BT. I'm not a huge fan of Space Marines in general, but I do like the whole black and white crusader thing. Black Templar is a pretty cool guy, he kills the xeno and doesn't afraid of anything. Also, they invented the Land Raider crusader, which is my favorite Land Raider.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:[edited] Apparently Dakka has a politically correct message composer now? I typed out the correct spelling of a word, and it spat out "slowed". Interesting. [/edited]

Hmm... let me test it.

slowed.
slow.

[EDIT]: So that's the word they chose to replace it. Interesting choice, given that only a percentage of those people who are actually... that word... would actually be slow. In fact, that word has a lot of different meanings, not all related to mental stability or mental cognitive growth. It's quite sad that an overly touchy staff has changed a word with multiple meanings into a singular meaning. Personally I think it's more offensive to consider those people 'slow', as not all of them are.

Hmm... what about another test: flame-retardant suit. Ok, that worked. Perhaps I should put one on.

Outstanding. That is all.

Ouze wrote:

Also, kind of neat if they do BT. I'm not a huge fan of Space Marines in general, but I do like the whole black and white crusader thing. Black Templar is a pretty cool guy, he kills the xeno and doesn't afraid of anything. Also, they invented the Land Raider crusader, which is my favorite Land Raider.

I have a Vanilla Marine army, but one of my favourite fractions has always been BT. For me it is to do with reading about the Crusades from history added into the 40k Universe. Pluse the Crusader LR is awesome!

Do you think they will publish an actual Black Templar codex or do you think it will be a mini-codex like the Sisters of Battle?

I hope it's a full codex. I'd rather my 2nd fav army not be an after thought.

pusharemark wrote:Do you think they will publish an actual Black Templar codex or do you think it will be a mini-codex like the Sisters of Battle?

If the rumors are to be believed we're getting new miniatures, which would necessitate a new codex as well.

Let's just pray it's not Matt Ward, or we'll have Black Templar librarians, BTs wielding daemon weapons, and wishing they were smurfs.

BaronIveagh wrote:Let's just pray it's not Matt Ward, or we'll have Black Templar librarians, BTs wielding daemon weapons, and wishing they were smurfs.

I think if that happened, I would go to warmachine... even if I can't seem to get minis from them.

BaronIveagh wrote:Let's just pray it's not Matt Ward, or we'll have Black Templar librarians, BTs wielding daemon weapons, and wishing they were smurfs.

Don't forget, they're 'crusades' would all be about trying to find their lost copy of the codex astartes...

...which trayzan stole and then made it look like it was imhotek...

...which is why helbretch is now hunting him down.

ghost21 wrote:Expect BT to be the Landraider spam army.

The only thing worse than Wards fluff? People who still think giving overblown examples of how he might ruin it in the future.....it might have been witty the first few hundered times now its just kind of sad...

Kroothawk wrote:

ghost21 wrote:Expect BT to be the Landraider spam army.

Don't Blood Angels already have this in spades? I'll be interested to see what they do about the Crusader, since the Templars' signature vehicle is now available to all Chapters, I am hoping that this "Rampage" stuff that has been mentioned regarding their Machine Spirit makes for a flavorful addition.

Kroothawk, any word on whether Crusader Squads will mimic Blood Claw units; that is, will Initiates be WS3 BS3 Space Marines? This is the only way I could see 11-point Marines being a reality, and even then, I couldn't see a Blood Claw-esque statline being a justifiable trainer of Neophytes. Perhaps we'll see more variegated troops options? Anything beyond a singular Troops Choice is fine by me, at this point.

On second thought, maybe they'll be like this:

5-15 Initiates (14pts): WS: 4, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 1, Ld: 8, Sv: 3+
0-15 Neophyte (10pts): WS: 3, BS: 3, S: 4, T: 4, W: 1, I: 4, A: 1, Ld: 7, Sv: 4+

That would be interesting. Pure speculation, though.

Kroothawk wrote:

ghost21 wrote:Expect BT to be the Landraider spam army.

They already were, and could already take them as dedicated transports. It's like saying "Expect BT to be a power armored army" and is basically a non-rumor.

KarlPedder wrote:The only thing worse than Wards fluff? People who still think giving overblown examples of how he might ruin it in the future.....it might have been witty the first few hundered times now its just kind of sad...

I really wish more people thought like this; I was hoping that after this long people would tired of regurgitating the same joke might get tired of it but nope.

As long as the point costs are done up to match Codex SM costs I'll be happy. We pay less for certain things that can be helpful in tournament lists, but most of the time BT pays more for less.

I don't see why they wouldn't balance out the points. They've done that in every other codex, with a tiny bit of undercosting here and there.

Carbonbass wrote:As long as the point costs are done up to match Codex SM costs I'll be happy. We pay less for certain things that can be helpful in tournament lists, but most of the time BT pays more for less.

Actually, I'm cool with point costs differing from vanilla marines-it shows that BTs are different and don't follow the same rules/traditions of warfare that codex astartes marines do. Slightly more expensive rhinos? Sure, but offset by cheaper landraider crusaders and plasma pistols. Krak grenades aren't standard? Means they're too busy rushing forward in a sea of black bodies. I think differing costs is a good thing-but it needs to have a proper balance between the good and the bad offshoots. Plus, it'll mean it's not the same as taking a vanilla army, just with adding in the EC. It's like a whole new level of marines. Kind of like Space Wolves are. Their troops have different costs, but [mostly] same wargear costs. This would just be a different cost for wargear, and maybe marines too. It will make them unique. And uniqueness in a marine army is always a positive-so long as "unique" doesn't mean "crappy."

Brother SRM wrote:I don't see why they wouldn't balance out the points. They've done that in every other codex, with a tiny bit of undercosting here and there.

The point being unless BT suddenly don't get Bolt Pistols and CCWs as base there is really no way to screw them up.

I think my greatest fear is they'll make them too different, turn them into something that isn't a Space Marine army, like the rumors talking of a mild point reduction for worse BS or other stats. They are still Spess Muheens, with all the funky do-dads and training, they just like to rip and tear more than most Marines.

I'd take a -BS for a +WS, personally.

MasticatorDeelux wrote:I'd take a -BS for a +WS, personally.

Haha, someone suggested the opposite on the Tau thread.

Yeah, their stats aren't changing. A Space Marine is a Space Marine is a Space Marine. They won't become WS or BS3, because there's literally no reason for them to. Their organization favors close combat, but they wouldn't get worse training as a result. Neophytes staying WS/BS3 is fine and won't be changed.

Carbonbass wrote:As long as the point costs are done up to match Codex SM costs I'll be happy. We pay less for certain things that can be helpful in tournament lists, but most of the time BT pays more for less.

I'd actually prefer they do them to match Space Wolves, in that a basic marine has a Bolter, Bolt Pistol, and Close Combat weapon for 15 points. Like Space Wolves, Black Templars do not have "Sergeants" and they both have the same stats otherwise. I've always felt it to be kind of dumb that all Marines don't have those three things standard.

Daniel Of All wrote: Yeah but I'm a collector at heart so I'll just put it on a shelf a feel good about myself for owning it ........

to each his own

LonelyPath wrote:

Eldoriath wrote:I think ghost said that BT had been lying around ready for 8 months.

And longer it's been waiting for release for quite some time now. In fact, according to someone I know, it was ready before they left GW last year! He mentioned it to me that they'd be "soon" at the time since they were looking for a release slot and had forgotten my black marines with old colour scheme DA and not BT, lol.

I hope BT get a release soon though, it is long overdue.

Jared Van Kell:

Possible release date of March 3rd if the source holds true.

So potentially VC in January, ??? February, BT March?

March sounds like a good bet to me, just enough time to build a few more models with my spare bits before buying more stuff.

The Dark Saga wrote:March sounds like a good bet to me, just enough time to build a few more models with my spare bits before buying more stuff.

I really don't want to be the last 5th edition codex, then be stuck with it all the way through 6th and maybe into 7th. Ug.

Smegmalicious wrote:

The Dark Saga wrote:March sounds like a good bet to me, just enough time to build a few more models with my spare bits before buying more stuff.

I really don't want to be the last 5th edition codex, then be stuck with it all the way through 6th and maybe into 7th. Ug.

I wish people could understand that a codex written shortly before the edition change is written with that edition in mind. Orks, Dark Angels, Chaos Marines, and Daemons were written in 4th, but with 5th in mind. According to some sources, every codex since IG has been written for 6th, and 6th will help make armies like Tyranids better. Necrons are clearly written for 6th, as they include references to a rule or two (heavy vehicles) that aren't in 5th at all.

I wished Codex tyranids would have been written with 5th edition in mind

That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

They weren't even allowed to ally with a force that contained a model with physic powers (except GK) back when allying was possible. They don't get Whirlwinds either, because they aren't equipped with assault ramps.

Not sure what I'm gunna do with all these marines then. Was planing on picking up the starter box for sixth edition so now I'm gunna have a bunch of ultras and BT lol

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

Black Templars don't have Whirlwinds for whatever reason, and they don't get sergeants in their squads.

Brother SRM wrote:

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

Black Templars don't have Whirlwinds for whatever reason, and they don't get sergeants in their squads.

Unless it's a command squad.

Smegmalicious wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:

wowsmash wrote:That's unfortunate, I was really hoping for DA. Was going to use my black reach marine for DA. O well. Isn't BT the guys that don't use librarians. Anything else their not allowed to use

Black Templars don't have Whirlwinds for whatever reason, and they don't get sergeants in their squads.

Unless it's a command squad.

Also no Devastators.

And no LR Redeemers, No Ironclad Dreadnoughts, no scout squads, no vanguard squads, no sternguard squads, Two crappy named characters (over-priced), no stormraven (I know they're new), no drop pod assault rules, no conversion beamer (but our Tech Marines have 2 wounds), and no land speeder storms.

Also, no Combat Tactics and Combat Squading.

I will be interested to see if they follow the Matt Ward model for Space Marines. Hopefully not, since Phil Kelly is the acclaimed author.

For reference, here's what the Matt Ward Model is, more or less:

Army-Wide:
1-2 unique Special Rules that exemplify the codex (a la Aegis or Descent of Angels), plus ATSKNF

HQ:
- Chapter Bossman with FOC modifying Special Rule, that also exemplifies the Chapter they command (Dante flies around and has Hit and Run, for example)

- Support Character for flavor, of which one or two will have an FOC modifying Special Rule

- Standard HQ units (Captain, Librarian, Chaplain) -- shouldn't have LIbrarians for BT, but at this point all bets are off with retcon possibilities and whatnot. MotF possible?


Troops:
- Standard "Tactical" Squad

- "Exemplar" Squads (Terminator Squads for GK, Assault Squads and Death Company/DC Dreadnoughts for DA)

- Scouts?


Other:
- Elite Units that are "Tactical" Squads, but with +1A, +1Ld and access to more equipment (Sternguard, Purifiers/Paladins, etc), and some cool special rule or piece of gear (Special Ammo, Cleansing Flame, etc)

- Elite/Fast Attack Unit that exemplifies the Chapter's uber-elite-super-shock-troopers (Purifiers/Paladins, Sanguinary Guard, or Thunderwolves for SW, even though Ward didn't write that codex)

- Elite/Heavy Support Dreadnought

- Elite Venerable Dreadnought

- Elite Unique Dreadnought that exemplifies the Chapter (Aegis Dreadnought or Furioso) -- possibility for Chaplain/Reclusiarch Dreadnought in the BT Codex?

- Elites Scouts?

- Fast Attack Jump Infantry version of "Tactical" Squad with close-combat focus

- Fast Attack Elite Jump Infantry version of the same.

- All the standard Fast Attack/Heavy Support vehicles, plus something unique for the Chapter (Storm Raven now standard, but Baal Predator for BA and Dreadknight for GK, even though it's not a vehicle)

* * * * *

I know it's not exact, but it gives the general framework of much of the Space Marine armies of late, and even some other armies (DE have Kabalite Trueborn to their Warriors, and Hekatrix Bloodbrides to their Wyches, for example).

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:I will be interested to see if they follow the Matt Ward model for Space Marines. Hopefully not, since Phil Kelly is the acclaimed author.

For reference, here's what the Matt Ward Model is, more or less:

***STUFF***

Game Store Owner: Your hate for this idea, the very possibility of Ward writing your beloved Black Templars codex, how much is it really?

Me: It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAANND!

BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

BaronIveagh wrote:Game Store Owner: Your hate for this idea, the very possibility of Ward writing your beloved Black Templars codex, how much is it really?

Me: It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAANND!

I should have clarified; I wouldn't hate it, I'd just like to see a little more variation to his formula for the past several codices. At this point, the only news regarding the Templars that won't be met with eager excitement from me would be new of their army's cancellation.

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Smegmalicious wrote:And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

That would not be surprising at all, actually. a Dreadnaught SC would be a pretty appropriate "Champion, but turned up to 11" to go along with the current style where every Codex has units that maybe are a teensy bit overboard int he theme department.

Balance wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

That would not be surprising at all, actually. a Dreadnaught SC would be a pretty appropriate "Champion, but turned up to 11" to go along with the current style where every Codex has units that maybe are a teensy bit overboard int he theme department.

If BA can have psyker dreadnoughts (which really, if they have them, all marines should have them...), then BT should be able to have chaplain and EC dreads.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Well of course. But you should be able to do things like take a jump pack or whatever other equipment is available to normal HQ. I also think you should be have various statlines to choose from like a normal HQ.

Smegmalicious wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Well of course. But you should be able to do things like take a jump pack or whatever other equipment is available to normal HQ. I also think you should be have various statlines to choose from like a normal HQ.

That might make more sense if whatever gear you gave the EC ( Jump Pack, Bike, etc...) became the standard kit for whatever you were going to count as Troops in the army. Especially since the EC going lone wolf makes zero tactical or fluff sense, and it would allow for interesting new variants of the list, as opposed to just black tide and mechanized black tide spam.

InnerLight wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:

ph34r wrote:BT Master of the Forge should be called Master of the Reliquary, and he should have the option to take a Relic Blade. And be badass.

And there should be a special character Emperor's Champion who has been interred in a Dreadnaught. That would be amazing.

Realistically there should be options for equipping your EC like any other HQ, there should be more than one troops choice and more options to make fun builds. It should be mandatory that you can make Black Tide work to some degree too.

As long as they make the Black Sword and the Armour of Faith mandatory, I agree.

Well of course. But you should be able to do things like take a jump pack or whatever other equipment is available to normal HQ. I also think you should be have various statlines to choose from like a normal HQ.

That might make more sense if whatever gear you gave the EC ( Jump Pack, Bike, etc...) became the standard kit for whatever you were going to count as Troops in the army. Especially since the EC going lone wolf makes zero tactical or fluff sense, and it would allow for interesting new variants of the list, as opposed to just black tide and mechanized black tide spam.

The army I've found to be most effective is missile spam. 3x terminators with CML, a chainfist and tank hunters, 3x squads of 2 typhoons and then several las plas in rhinos to fill out your points. That list rocks the pants off of anything else I've put on the board.

Still horribly against fluff, which I hate, but it's really effective at range and the terminators are no joke in hand to hand thanks to favored enemy.

kronk wrote:And no LR Redeemers, No Ironclad Dreadnoughts, no scout squads, no vanguard squads, no sternguard squads, Two crappy named characters (over-priced), no stormraven (I know they're new), no drop pod assault rules, no conversion beamer (but our Tech Marines have 2 wounds), and no land speeder storms.

Also, no Combat Tactics and Combat Squading.

Yes, but aside from scouts (who are in crusader squads anyway) literally every one of those options is from the 5th ed Space Marines and Blood Angels codices, which are somewhere around 3 and 4 years older, respectively. That's like saying the Imperial Guard doesn't get Valkyries and Leman Russ Punishers in their Rogue Trader armylist. Such options simply didn't exist.

Corpsman_of_Krieg summed up the guidelines for recent codices perfectly.


The idea of a special dreadnought for the BT sounds good to me. It makes no sense that only Blood Angels can have other Marines such as a Librarian in a dreadnought. Chaplain/Reclusiarch would make the most sense to me.

With the rumored date of release at 3 Mar 12, is there any word as to whether the Templars will make it into the starter set for 6th Edition?

As much as I like the boys in black, I feel that using the Templars as 6th Edition's Loyalist poster child might be a regressive step for GW. The game has become much more mainstream since the days of 3rd Edition, when they were last featured, and I'm concerned that a game already full to bursting with grimdark might send a slightly over-strong message to prospective buyers by ramping it up to 11. Templars are the most xenophobic and intolerant of the Astartes after all; doesn't their character and story alone make them better suited as a "stage two" type of army?

What I mean, is you have slightly more generic armies that are a little more forgiving in terms of playstyle and fluff to new buyers (Vanilla Space Marines and Orks, for example; hence their presence in the 5th Edition kit). Then, you have more specialized armies that are not only geared toward veteran players, but also have consequently darker and more morbid fluff attached to them (Dark Eldar, anyone?).

GW did well for themselves by putting the Ultras and Orks into 5th Edition's kit; is it going to be a misstep to switch out Guilliman's boys for Dorn's Templars? Food for thought, I suppose.

* * * * *

Regarding the BT Codex, I hope that the percentage rumor pans out. Fielding innumerable Crusader Squads was a blast in 4th Edition (and was somewhat competitive, too). Maybe we'll get different types of Troop choices? Shield-bearing types would be fun.

. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.

They WERE a popular army to jervis and company F'd them up pretty badly during the infamous "were nopt going to put fluff in the codex" era.....

carmachu wrote:

. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.

They WERE a popular army to jervis and company F'd them up pretty badly during the infamous "were nopt going to put fluff in the codex" era.....

You mean third edition?

Brother SRM wrote:

carmachu wrote:

. DA will probably not be updated anytime soon, because its not a popular army and GW does not want to waste money updating one or more armies that almost no one plays with a separate dex.

They WERE a popular army to jervis and company F'd them up pretty badly during the infamous "were nopt going to put fluff in the codex" era.....

You mean third edition?

Most likely. They were quite popular til they screwed them. They along with DE were the only ones of that era that seemed to need a second printing of the codex to crrect things(menaing its stamped on the front 2nd update or some such).

Corpsman_of_Krieg wrote:With the rumored date of release at 3 Mar 12, is there any word as to whether the Templars will make it into the starter set for 6th Edition?

As much as I like the boys in black, I feel that using the Templars as 6th Edition's Loyalist poster child might be a regressive step for GW. The game has become much more mainstream since the days of 3rd Edition, when they were last featured, and I'm concerned that a game already full to bursting with grimdark might send a slightly over-strong message to prospective buyers by ramping it up to 11. Templars are the most xenophobic and intolerant of the Astartes after all; doesn't their character and story alone make them better suited as a "stage two" type of army?

Nope, Dark Angels are easily the most xenophopic Astartes, to the point that they'll pack up and leave a battle just because the IG brought in abhumans like ogryns!

As for the Jervis & co screwing DA's over in 3rd... Please recall how WD worked back then. After the 'Index Astartes' article on the DA's, there was a whole page of errata which basically tooled around with some of the pts in the DA codex because they were paying alot more pts than the newer codicies were for almost the same thing! (ie: Deathwing termies dropped in pts, as did ravenwing IIRC, give plasma cannons to tac squads, along with a number of clarifications)
The errata page also added the option to field the Master of the Ravenwing on his bike, as upto that point, he was stuck with just his very expensive land speeder!

Jervis screwed over the dark Angels with their current book. Being an overly simplified pile of junk which pays through the nose for almost all of options, reducing it to codex: multiwing as being the only viable way to play competitively!


Those '2nd edition' books were just 2nd printings, which included the rather lengthy erratas so that players didn't need to carry around WD's with them as well;
- Dark Eldar had a number of pts re-ajustments, plus vehicle upgrades were finally added!
- Chaos Marines had the most changes to fix-up the obvious mistakes, (anyone else recall the thrall wizards with T1/3W?!!) GW just kept quite about it! You could tell if you had the 2nd printing because the date was on the inside page and IIRC it read 're-printed in 2002/3' or such...

Experiment 626 wrote:

Nope, Dark Angels are easily the most xenophopic Astartes, to the point that they'll pack up and leave a battle just because the IG brought in abhumans like ogryns!

As for the Jervis & co screwing DA's over in 3rd... Please recall how WD worked back then. After the 'Index Astartes' article on the DA's, there was a whole page of errata which basically tooled around with some of the pts in the DA codex because they were paying alot more pts than the newer codicies were for almost the same thing! (ie: Deathwing termies dropped in pts, as did ravenwing IIRC, give plasma cannons to tac squads, along with a number of clarifications)
The errata page also added the option to field the Master of the Ravenwing on his bike, as upto that point, he was stuck with just his very expensive land speeder!

Jervis screwed over the dark Angels with their current book. Being an overly simplified pile of junk which pays through the nose for almost all of options, reducing it to codex: multiwing as being the only viable way to play competitively!


Those '2nd edition' books were just 2nd printings, which included the rather lengthy erratas so that players didn't need to carry around WD's with them as well;
- Dark Eldar had a number of pts re-ajustments, plus vehicle upgrades were finally added!
- Chaos Marines had the most changes to fix-up the obvious mistakes, (anyone else recall the thrall wizards with T1/3W?!!) GW just kept quite about it! You could tell if you had the 2nd printing because the date was on the inside page and IIRC it read 're-printed in 2002/3' or such...

I'm not sure if I conveyed my point. What I'm getting at is that on the GRIMDARK (tm) scale, Black Templars >> Ultramarines. Since more the more mainstream a product becomes, the less distant from center its flagship products become in an effort to grab a larger target audience. This brings me to my point, which is this: will increasing the GRIMDARK (tm) in their flagship product by adding Templars, thus moving it farther from center, negatively impact the breadth of their target audience by driving away some of the would-be buyers that would otherwise be interested if the boys in blue were still front and center?

Speculation? Sure, but something to consider I suppose.

Corpsman_of_Krieg, I just have to comment on your signature: Mill was a political and social theoretician who worked for the East India Company.

"Auferre trucidare rapere falsis nominis imperium, atque ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. " Tacitus

"To plunder, slaughter and rape they give the false name of empire, and where they make a solitude they call it peace." Tacitus

His father in law was Gnaeus Julius Agricola, conqueror of the majority of Britain.

No not really, they were the poster boys in the 3rd edition starter set and extremely popular on account of their simple colour scheme and strong rules.

Added to that is the fact that most people just think knights in space when they see Templars. Knights are still a very common theme in popular childrens literature with fairy tales, cartoons and the like so its not as grimdark as you are making it out; superficially at least. But then most people will just view the product superficially if they are buying it, Iam thinking of mommy and daddy here. Reading the background thats certainly not the case! However even then they usually just read like generic heroes battling the forces of evil, even if they're a bit brutal about it.

BaronIveagh wrote:Corpsman_of_Krieg, I just have to comment on your signature: Mill was a political and social theoretician who worked for the East India Company.

"Auferre trucidare rapere falsis nominis imperium, atque ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant. " Tacitus

"To plunder, slaughter and rape they give the false name of empire, and where they make a solitude they call it peace." Tacitus

His father in law was Gnaeus Julius Agricola, conqueror of the majority of Britain.

Since it is difficult to infer precisely what you intended with the above comment, I'm going to have to ask for clarification. Much of the meaning conveyed is lost when text is the only medium, so I don't want to incorrectly think you mean something other than what you intended to say.


@Totalwar1402:
A fair point. I guess by the time the initial buyer realizes the darker aspects exist, they'll have already purchased the kit.

From Sticky Monkey on Warseer. He was commenting on future releases.

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5978438#post5978438

My sources are giving me the following general timelines of codex releases

2012
Q1/2 - tau (or flipped w BT)
Q2/3 - BT ( possible WD codex)
Q3 - 6 Ed
Q3/4 - eldar

2013 getting fuzzy
Q1 - SM
Q2/3 - chaos legions (new)
Q4 - ig or orks!

2014. So much could change...no order given
Daemons
Nids
DA?

This is a long way out, and a lot could change, but we know the studio has long lead times.

Cheers, Merry Christmas.

So a PDF for Black Templar??? Remember a rumour only.

i'm glad to see BT get the WD codex they deserve!

If they get a WD codex, I will be really really angry on webforums... but I will buy it and possibly play out of it.

Although a WD dex seems dumb... why do such a huge change in a FAQ when you could have just done it in WD.

White Dwarf doesn't seem likely. Considering Dark Angels and Blood Angels are both "codex" chapters that have their own rulebooks, it would be silly to relegate Black Templars to a White Dwarf. They are as deviant as Space Wolves.

Oh well. Time will tell, and it seems that the 3 Mar 12 release might be a tad bit early compared to the suggested Q2/Q3 publish date posted just now.

Regardless, I'll be fielding them. Even if they have to be a White Dwarf codex for a while.

Davor wrote:

So a PDF for Black Templar??? Remember a rumour only.

I wouldn't put money on it.

To he honest, those rumors are all over the place.

Tau or maybe Templars.

Or maybe Templar PDF the next quarter.

2014 predictions? Really?

gendoikari87 wrote:i'm glad to see BT get the WD codex they deserve!

Obvious troll is obvious. You've taken every chance to share your anti-Space Marine opinions.

We get it. You don't want GW to make money and stay in business.

kronk wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:i'm glad to see BT get the WD codex they deserve!

Obvious troll is obvious. You've taken every chance to share your anti-Space Marine opinions.

To be fair, he is also trolling Tau players.

But honestly - who expects relevant useful tips, let alone a Codex in a WD? ( Unless you play Dreadfleet, or LOTR)

Steve Jobs maybe... Oh ... That's right...

First Sisters of Battle, now Black Templars, GW dont like the Church :(

Any info gathered by stickmonkey is total bs. He has no idea of what he is talking about. Everyone says one thing he says another. Man I still remember 5 months before de launched his exact words were dark eldar will never get a new codex. Oh and then the summer of fliers. Then sisters of battle are not getting anything new. Oh and the grey knights being basically a imperial guard book with some grey knights.

So ya stick monkey rumors are a load of dung at best. But I hope black Templars do get some love they were a widely popular army.

cgage00 wrote:Man I still remember 5 months before de launched his exact words were dark eldar will never get a new codex.

Well, to be fair, everyone was saying that five months before DE came out.

Regarding the WD rumours, I have this strange feeling in my stomach that it might actually happen: if Preferred Enemy starts working in shooting, like it is rumoured to do in 6th, the current incarnation of Black Templars would break the game completely. Twin-linked EVERYTHING not on (non-walker) vehicles or scouts for 50 points, also granting rerolls in CC against stuff with WS? Yeah, no.

they would probably have a special rule where it re-rolls to hit only work in close combat if it happens. it would take away from salamanders who get the twin linked heavy weapons

Blood Angels had WD rules for a time, it doesn't spell doom for an army but merely tides them over until they can get a proper rewrite.

I am not trying to spark an argument but BT can easily use the blood angel book for the time being. The BA have LR dedicated transports, a storm raven, assault troops, furious charge. I know it's not the same but I mean if they do get a WD and it isn't agreeable at least their are alternatives until they get a proper writeup.

I don't care where the codex is as long as it's competitive and interesting.

I build about 100% of my armies out of Army Builder anyway. I can memorize the relavent rules and copy/print them out for when I play people who aren't familiar with them.

Honestly the current codex is FAQ'ed to gak and basically unusable as it is.

In the end, as long as it's competitive, interesting and fun I'm happy.

I demand Tankred.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Regarding the WD rumours, I have this strange feeling in my stomach that it might actually happen: if Preferred Enemy starts working in shooting, like it is rumoured to do in 6th, the current incarnation of Black Templars would break the game completely. Twin-linked EVERYTHING not on (non-walker) vehicles or scouts for 50 points, also granting rerolls in CC against stuff with WS? Yeah, no.

So what if 'Prefered Enemy' starts working in the shooting phase? GW has already started that deeply unsettling trend with GK's who can (if the PE rumor is true) re-roll a much stronger shooting vs an entire army! (and GK's get it for free because it's only vs 1 army!)
Let's face it, Templar shooting is about to get a kick in the teeth since those termies will no longer be able to take 2x heavy weapons on just 5 guys, and the min/max las-plas squads are likely to go bye-bye as well. So, I could definately see the PE vow staying as an expensive upgrade, but Templar shooting is likely to become the shortest ranged of any chapter. (or else require 10 man squads for those heavy + special weapon set-ups).

I honestly hope that BT's get a proper codex and not a WD hack-job. Personally in my opinion, those WD 'get-you-by' lists should really be reserved for the likes of Chaos Marines, (who are rumored to really need it once Legions come out), Daemons, (who are just plain broken right now), and the introduction of new units to armies who'll be waiting a good while before they get their new book. (Orks or Tyranids for example)

cgage00 wrote:Any info gathered by stickmonkey is total bs. He has no idea of what he is talking about.

I proved you wrong in the other thread, so what you are saying is bs. Repeating wrong statements doesn't make them right.

Stickmonkey was the first to give the correct release date and detail info about Necrons, one year in advance. He was the first to give summer 2012 as the 6th edition release, also in 2010. He clearly stated that he has seen 7 flyers in the works and just made an explicit speculation of them being released together.

Not sure if your hate makes you immune to facts though.

Experiment 626 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Regarding the WD rumours, I have this strange feeling in my stomach that it might actually happen: if Preferred Enemy starts working in shooting, like it is rumoured to do in 6th, the current incarnation of Black Templars would break the game completely. Twin-linked EVERYTHING not on (non-walker) vehicles or scouts for 50 points, also granting rerolls in CC against stuff with WS? Yeah, no.

So what if 'Prefered Enemy' starts working in the shooting phase? GW has already started that deeply unsettling trend with GK's who can (if the PE rumor is true) re-roll a much stronger shooting vs an entire army! (and GK's get it for free because it's only vs 1 army!)
Let's face it, Templar shooting is about to get a kick in the teeth since those termies will no longer be able to take 2x heavy weapons on just 5 guys, and the min/max las-plas squads are likely to go bye-bye as well. So, I could definately see the PE vow staying as an expensive upgrade, but Templar shooting is likely to become the shortest ranged of any chapter. (or else require 10 man squads for those heavy + special weapon set-ups).

I honestly hope that BT's get a proper codex and not a WD hack-job. Personally in my opinion, those WD 'get-you-by' lists should really be reserved for the likes of Chaos Marines, (who are rumored to really need it once Legions come out), Daemons, (who are just plain broken right now), and the introduction of new units to armies who'll be waiting a good while before they get their new book. (Orks or Tyranids for example)

I am fully aware that lasplas squads and Cycloneators are going away in the next Codex, but everything you just said is dependant on the Black Templars getting a new Codex before or immediately after 6th edition. My line of reasoning was that GW, in their deep and unfathomable wisdom, could decide that they have to change BT before 6th because the current Codex with rerolls to hit at range is silly. Thus they might reason that it's easier to just churn out a WD Codex as a stop-gap solution, instead of releasing a "full" Codex.

Kroothawk wrote:Stickmonkey was the first to give the correct release date and detail info about Necrons, one year in advance. He was the first to give summer 2012 as the 6th edition release, also in 2010. He clearly stated that he has seen 7 flyers in the works and just made an explicit speculation of them being released together.

He was also the first to give information on the Tyranids terrain, the Deff Dread/Killa Kan combo kit, plastic Plaguebearers, Grey Knights with full Inquisition support codex before Dark Eldar, the Grey Knights codex with almost no Inquistion support, etc...

BT WD codex?

Laughable.

Edit: +1 for Tankred.

I, for one, would welcome a BT WD codex. As a Space Marine Variant they are a perfect fit. The PDF basically would only have to say "These universal rules apply to a BT army: [...]" and "Makt the following changes to the Space Marines army list: [Add Emperors Champion, Swords Brethren, remove tactical and scout squads, and so on]"

So it would be a perfect fit with the exception of....

everything....

Yup, perfect.

+1 to Tankred...

GW stopped using a codex as main codex when moving to 4th ed.. So WD pointing to another codex plus X changes?

gendoikari87 wrote:i'm glad to see BT get the WD codex they deserve!

This just seems like an obvious bit of trolling to me. Black Templars are the most divergent chapter aside from space wolves. They have blobs of infantry; a mix of scout armour and power armour, providing a unique flexibility when playing the army, allowing you to allocate wounds onto the scouts before having to sacrifice power armour. Every unit may take a Land Raider crusader as a dedicated transport, meaning there can be 6 in the army for troops alone. The Emperor's champion does not use a force organisation slot, has a unique weapon and armour. The army has special rules to give them a proficiency in certain areas of combat. And, as with each new codex, the differences from the codex chapters will be further accentuated by a new codex, just as was done in C:SW and C:BA.

sparkywtf wrote:So it would be a perfect fit with the exception of....

everything....

Yup, perfect.

-Librarian
-Tactical
-Scout Squad
+Emperor's Champion
+Swords Brethren
+Crusader Squads
+Chapter Specific ICs (Grimaldus, Helbrecht, Tankred, whatever)

Chapter Tactics: Furious Charge, Rage


I don't even know why I'm responding to you.

Korraz wrote:

sparkywtf wrote:So it would be a perfect fit with the exception of....

everything....

Yup, perfect.

-Librarian
-Tactical
-Scout Squad
+Emperor's Champion
+Swords Brethren
+Crusader Squads
+Chapter Specific ICs (Grimaldus, Helbrecht, Tankred, whatever)

Chapter Tactics: Furious Charge, Rage


I don't even know why I'm responding to you.

-Devastators
-Whirlwinds
-Land Speeder Storm
-Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans

You also missed out on vows, fearless in CC etc etc etc. If anything, the Dark Angels would be a perfect fit (and I still think they should have their own Codex).

Too bad normal space marines cant -tactical squads and +squads that are useful

Honestly I dont think anyone would notice if they took out devastators, whirlwinds, land speeder storms, scouts or vanguard

AlmightyWalrus wrote:-Devastators
-Whirlwinds

Their lack is not really justifyable. Black Templars need heavy support fire like any other Marine Chapter, especially since they have no tacticals. But if you want it, good, no Devastors and WW.

-Land Speeder Storm

The Storm fits perfectly with their philosophy. A Paladin doesn't need to babysit his Neophyte all the time and mission with a Storm seems like the perfect opportunity to prove oneself.

-Sternguard/Vanguard Veterans

Actually, there's no need for SB. Sternguard and Vanguard are exactly what SB are, just better.

You also missed out on vows, fearless in CC etc etc etc. If anything, the Dark Angels would be a perfect fit (and I still think they should have their own Codex).

Vows are included with the EC, you don't want Fearless anyway and there's no etc etc etc. "Abhor the Witch yatta yatta" is obsolete, since there are no allies any more.
Neither the DA, nor the BT book is justifyable. DA were always just the Beta für the new Vanilla book, but at least they have tradition on their side. BT practically got stomped into existence because somebody felt that there weren't enough Marine books.

We don't have paladins, we have initiates!

And yes, they do need to babysit their neophyte the whole time... that is the point of that training. They prove themselves in combat next to the initiates, not stomping off alone. (alone being in a small group in a speeder)

Also sternguard/vanguard are just like tacs, but better. Assualt marines are like tacs but different slightly.

So by your logic, why have so many options even in the main codex... everything could be solved with a few HQs and some different options on one squad!

Which would be ideal, yes. Stern and Vanguard as two options is completely redundant, for example.

sparkywtf wrote:We don't have paladins, we have initiates!

WE.?..?...localized codices tend to alter the names. So in a german codex BT have Paladins.

Korraz wrote:Which would be ideal, yes.

Yes your posts are not ideal. More of a attempt to troll.
To put a libby in the BT list...

No reason to try the same crap like others before you.


BT actually provide not much to transform to a plastic box of 5 minis.

Sword brethren? Maybe, are metal and benefit from additional bitz.
EC? finecosted most likely. Chappy? A plasitc box like the SM commander would be nice...
The rest is basic SM kit. At best they redo the bikes someday. Dreads , speeders and tanks are all 100% plastic and not outdated.

Read again. I suggested to remove the librarian, as one of the basic changes to make Vanilla into BT.

Korraz wrote:Read again. I suggested to remove the librarian, as one of the basic changes to make Vanilla into BT.

Good for you.

Still the non-codex adherent using the codex astartes list....
do I need to say more?

1hadhq wrote:

Korraz wrote:Read again. I suggested to remove the librarian, as one of the basic changes to make Vanilla into BT.

Good for you.

Still the non-codex adherent using the codex astartes list....
do I need to say more?

Some people won't be happy until GW does away with space marines in general and instead turns their codex line to;
- Codex: Squats
- Codex: Genestealer Cult
- Codex: Adeptus Mechanicus
- Codex: Dark mechanicus
- Codex: Chaos Traitors & Mutants
- Codex: Nuns with Guns

And then WD's the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Orks, Tyranids, Tau & Necrons.
We also have no need for the current Chaos book either apparently because spiky marines are still marines who just have spikes and Daemons belong in fantasy...

So really, these people are just saying they would like GW to go out of buisness altogether.

So really, these people are just saying they would like GW to go out of buisness altogether.

Because nothing else sells, just Space Marines. That's why GW never wastes their time and money doing big updates for armies like Dark Eldar or Necrons, it's literally like throwing thousands of dollars down the toilet and watching it spin.

Sidstyler wrote:

So really, these people are just saying they would like GW to go out of buisness altogether.

Because nothing else sells, just Space Marines. That's why GW never wastes their time and money doing big updates for armies like Dark Eldar or Necrons, it's literally like throwing thousands of dollars down the toilet and watching it spin.

Not really what he was saying at all. He said that people won't accept GW advancing their armies, wanting the old things like squats etc to return. Space Marines are the best selling line, everyone knows that, no one said the other lines dont sell however.

Another thing. Who's to say preferred enemy will be a re-roll to hit? It could be a reduction to cover saves, re-roll to wound, +1 ballistic skill, anything, we just have to wait and see.

I just wait until they decide some other army will sell better (Tau, maybe, if they really expand the Asian market) and then put MEQ through the same thing as everyone else gets.

We could make jokes about 'nids having eaten the Ultramarines homeworlds! Huzzah! Then some moron at GW would come along and claim they never existed.

BaronIveagh wrote:I just wait until they decide some other army will sell better (Tau, maybe, if they really expand the Asian market) and then put MEQ through the same thing as everyone else gets.

We could make jokes about 'nids having eaten the Ultramarines homeworlds! Huzzah! Then some moron at GW would come along and claim they never existed.

That seems likely.

BaronIveagh wrote:I just wait until they decide some other army will sell better (Tau, maybe, if they really expand the Asian market) and then put MEQ through the same thing as everyone else gets.

Oh, you mean having an old Codex with limited options? Don't worry, we're already there. After all, if those of us who play DA or BT use another Codex, we're instantly assumed to be "just another WAAC powergamer". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Oh, and since we play marines, which everyone knows are the scourge of all things nice, we totally deserve to wait for a new Codex. In fact, we should feel ashamed for daring to play a non-Xenos army that we happen to like.

Ugh, why is it Tau are always "expanding the Asian market". So I guess if you're not Asian you shouldn't be playing Tau, is that what I'm getting?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I just wait until they decide some other army will sell better (Tau, maybe, if they really expand the Asian market) and then put MEQ through the same thing as everyone else gets.

Oh, you mean having an old Codex with limited options? Don't worry, we're already there. After all, if those of us who play DA or BT use another Codex, we're instantly assumed to be "just another WAAC powergamer". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Oh, and since we play marines, which everyone knows are the scourge of all things nice, we totally deserve to wait for a new Codex. In fact, we should feel ashamed for daring to play a non-Xenos army that we happen to like.

I honestly wish GW would hurry up and fix both DA's & Templars as I do feel for those players.

Dark Angels are horribly over-costed outside of the deathwing/ravenwing. I would actually expect any DA player who doesn't want to play a 'wing' army to use the vanilla codex! I mean, how silly is it that DA's have to pay through the nose for half the options that codex marines get?! (it's like expecting VC players to still pay 8pts for the same skeleton that TK's pay only 5pts for!)
Templars are simply old and dusty and need some love. The FAQ did wonders for them, but they still have an awful time of it with rules like Rightous Zeal which forces players to mech-up if they want to go combaty, and their arguably 'top' competitive list looks like it should belong to the Iron Warriors!

It's no wonder that DA/Templars feel that they need to look outside their codicies to have some fun and add a little variety to otherwise stale & boring armies.

Sidstyler wrote:Ugh, why is it Tau are always "expanding the Asian market". So I guess if you're not Asian you shouldn't be playing Tau, is that what I'm getting?

That's not it at all. The Asian market have given us all thing Transformers, Gundum Wing and similar. As a communtiy they really like robotic warmachines and mechanical suits. Thus, GW has always been hoping that the Tau range which is their own take on it will be 'uber popular sellers to the Asian market.

Tau without the Asian market would simply be 'another xenos army' which would always still have their dedicated fanbase, but a much smaller one than the massive Imperial camp.

Experiment 626 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:Ugh, why is it Tau are always "expanding the Asian market". So I guess if you're not Asian you shouldn't be playing Tau, is that what I'm getting?

That's not it at all. The Asian market have given us all thing Transformers, Gundum Wing and similar. As a communtiy they really like robotic warmachines and mechanical suits. Thus, GW has always been hoping that the Tau range which is their own take on it will be 'uber popular sellers to the Asian market.

Tau without the Asian market would simply be 'another xenos army' which would always still have their dedicated fanbase, but a much smaller one than the massive Imperial camp.

1.) AFAIK Tau are not very popular in Japan, with Warhammer Fantasy more played as 40k.
2.) For the same reason not all Germans are playing Empire, not all Skandinavians play Space Wolves and Warriors of Chaos, not all South Americans play Lizardmen.
3.) Japanese grow up with high quality mecha kits. If they look at the Crisis Suit plastic kit, they are the least likely to be overwhelmed by its quality

I think people are confusing "influenced by Asian/anime aesthetics" as "distinctly marketed towards the Asian market." Tau are the former, and the latter is pure hearsay and rumor that gets perpetuated by forum discussions.

Brother SRM wrote:I think people are confusing "influenced by Asian/anime aesthetics" as "distinctly marketed towards the Asian market". Tau are the former, and the latter is pure hearsay and rumor that gets perpetuated by forum discussions.

+1 to this.

Tau designs have always taken inspiration from anime. 40k armies have a particular design/theme that takes inspiration from something else (e.g. Black Templars which takes design inspirations from Medieval knights).

To say that a particular theme is region specific is a bit of a stretch.

Experiment 626 wrote:Dark Angels are horribly over-costed outside of the deathwing/ravenwing. I would actually expect any DA player who doesn't want to play a 'wing' army to use the vanilla codex! I mean, how silly is it that DA's have to pay through the nose for half the options that codex marines get?! (it's like expecting VC players to still pay 8pts for the same skeleton that TK's pay only 5pts for!)
Templars are simply old and dusty and need some love. The FAQ did wonders for them, but they still have an awful time of it with rules like Rightous Zeal which forces players to mech-up if they want to go combaty, and their arguably 'top' competitive list looks like it should belong to the Iron Warriors!

I think, at least in the case of DA anyway, that this is almost intentional. As it's been pointed out to me (because people assume I'm just ignorant and don't know this gak), all the Marine codices are supposed to have different styles of play, as part of their justification for making separate codices for all these chapters in the first place. It makes sense to me that the DA codex makes it difficult to field an army of regular Marines, because that's what GW made C:SM for. DA would be kinda bs if it was just C:SM, but with extras. Why would you ever have a reason to play C:SM at that point, unless you were one of those types who felt like they were shackled to their army codex and weren't "allowed" to use another one (like all the people who get angry at "army-hopping", mostly perpetrated by Chaos players because they have one of the worst codices in the game).

DA still need an update, I'm just saying don't expect them to drop the cost of all the basic Marine stuff like you're expecting. They'll probably just make Deathwing/Ravenwing armies better since that's what makes the codex unique, so that C:SM is still the best way to go for a vanilla Marine army.

As a person who actually plays Templars, I can tell you, we do need help. -.- Templars are NOTHING like codex marines, and I hate when people talk down to me like Templars are just another SM army that needs to stop whining about how bad our codex is, and instead feel sympathy for the fact that their codex cant field an army of 3+ saves and great close combat. I mean, not to like rage on other players, but we deserve the same courtesy as anybody else. And if you read through it, nobody can deny our codex is broken. But no, I wont use a Vanilla marine codex. I mean....hell, thats like asking all the Eldar and Dark Eldar to play from the same codex because BASICALLY once upon a time, they were all Eldar. But at the same time.....Im sick of having to run away....towards the nearest Carnifex, or Terminator Assualt squad, because I failed a morale test. And I could always mech up.....at 55 pts a Rhino...... I understand other Codexs need work too. Especially CSM, which sadly I also play. -.- But BT need work soon. DA....ehh, I dont know. Ive never seen their Codex. But I do agree that most armies are specifically built for a certain style of fighting. If DA are supposed to field an army of Termies because thats what they do best, then dont resist it DA players. Forget about the overcosted basic troops and go for the cheaper stuff your army does best.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:As a person who actually plays Templars, I can tell you, we do need help. -.- Templars are NOTHING like codex marines, and I hate when people talk down to me like Templars are just another SM army that needs to stop whining about how bad our codex is, and instead feel sympathy for the fact that their codex cant field an army of 3+ saves and great close combat. I mean, not to like rage on other players, but we deserve the same courtesy as anybody else. And if you read through it, nobody can deny our codex is broken. But no, I wont use a Vanilla marine codex. I mean....hell, thats like asking all the Eldar and Dark Eldar to play from the same codex because BASICALLY once upon a time, they were all Eldar. But at the same time.....Im sick of having to run away....towards the nearest Carnifex, or Terminator Assualt squad, because I failed a morale test. And I could always mech up.....at 55 pts a Rhino...... I understand other Codexs need work too. Especially CSM, which sadly I also play. -.- But BT need work soon. DA....ehh, I dont know. Ive never seen their Codex. But I do agree that most armies are specifically built for a certain style of fighting. If DA are supposed to field an army of Termies because thats what they do best, then dont resist it DA players. Forget about the overcosted basic troops and go for the cheaper stuff your army does best.

I agree that the BT codex needs upgraded badly. BT players are almost as commonly abused as IG was before the most recent codex. I was actually mocked for having played such a worthless, inferior army.

I mean, let's be honest, we all know 'that guy'. The one that live to make other gamers miserable. The smarmy sad sack who goes into fits of rage at the sight of (well modded and sculpted) femmarines and other sources of nerdrage.

Purifyingflame_7 wrote:As a person who actually plays Templars, I can tell you, we do need help. -.- Templars are NOTHING like codex marines, and I hate when people talk down to me like Templars are just another SM army that needs to stop whining about how bad our codex is, and instead feel sympathy for the fact that their codex cant field an army of 3+ saves and great close combat. I mean, not to like rage on other players, but we deserve the same courtesy as anybody else. And if you read through it, nobody can deny our codex is broken. But no, I wont use a Vanilla marine codex. I mean....hell, thats like asking all the Eldar and Dark Eldar to play from the same codex because BASICALLY once upon a time, they were all Eldar. But at the same time.....Im sick of having to run away....towards the nearest Carnifex, or Terminator Assualt squad, because I failed a morale test. And I could always mech up.....at 55 pts a Rhino...... I understand other Codexs need work too. Especially CSM, which sadly I also play. -.- But BT need work soon. DA....ehh, I dont know. Ive never seen their Codex. But I do agree that most armies are specifically built for a certain style of fighting. If DA are supposed to field an army of Termies because thats what they do best, then dont resist it DA players. Forget about the overcosted basic troops and go for the cheaper stuff your army does best.

Righteous Zeal is up to the distance rolled, and only if you pass. I don't mean to be an ass, but make sure you get the rules right if you're gonna complain about them.

i played a game of planet strike against blood angels and dread knights wiht another black templar player and we were SO close to winning., they held an objective with a busted up dreadnought and given another turn i would have won it. i don't think they are bad, maybe just the scenario?...... nothing like 8 sword brethren terminators in a land raider crusader attacking with 6 duel lightning claws two thunder hammer combos assaulting with +1 termie honors and +1 for the charge AND furious charge, and getting to re roll hits and wounds minus thunder hammer guys for wounds. they WRECK. but in a normal game where you have to take troops i can see the problem.

From Th!rdeye from B&C. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=242736

I have updated the fist page with it. Here is his summary of it.

•Phil Kelly as the author, only minor reports of Ward/Cruddace being it instead
•Sword Brethren and Neophytes kits or at least new models for them
•Possible new "siege" weapon. ala Dreadknight level of gimmickness
•Possbile new unit/vehicle that relates to "Fantasy" stuff..... (this is very vague, could allude to above rumour)
•Possible new Dreadnought, be it Chappy, Durandal, or Relic
•Cheaper points cost rumours and others lead to Horde focus of sorts
•Very likely it will be the next codex to be released, Rumored March-May
•Rage USR (or something similar) seems to make its way in with/for RZ
•Current characters will return, with new ones (pretty much a given nowadays)
•Special EC, greatest swordsman ever/oldest serving EC
•Possible new abilties for Land Raiders and Sword Brethren

Davor wrote:
•Possible new "siege" weapon. ala Dreadknight level of gimmickness
•Possbile new unit/vehicle that relates to "Fantasy" stuff..... (this is very vague, could allude to above rumour)

Space Marine Horsemen, I'm calling it! (hey Space Wolves cant have all the cavalry fun )

Or maybe a Popemobile like in the Empire

Dear Emperor, I hope I'm/the rumor is not correct. This could be dreadfully silly

Davor wrote:From Th!rdeye from B&C. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=242736

I have updated the fist page with it. Here is his summary of it.

•Phil Kelly as the author, only minor reports of Ward/Cruddace being it instead
•Sword Brethren and Neophytes kits or at least new models for them
•Possible new "siege" weapon. ala Dreadknight level of gimmickness
•Possbile new unit/vehicle that relates to "Fantasy" stuff..... (this is very vague, could allude to above rumour)
•Possible new Dreadnought, be it Chappy, Durandal, or Relic
•Cheaper points cost rumours and others lead to Horde focus of sorts
•Very likely it will be the next codex to be released, Rumored March-May
•Rage USR (or something similar) seems to make its way in with/for RZ
•Current characters will return, with new ones (pretty much a given nowadays)
•Special EC, greatest swordsman ever/oldest serving EC
•Possible new abilties for Land Raiders and Sword Brethren

Kelly? ok until he gets overboard with the the theme...like wolf wolf wolf...
Sword brethren? sure, they are metal, won't stay as is. Also best bet on plastic kit of 5 models.
Neophytes? Just plastic scouts...every option already available.
A dreaded knight level kit? Please NO. The dread knight looks silly, no need for another kit that doesn't fit into the style of the army without conversions.
New dread? I love DReads But I doubt we get more plastic dreads. Wouldn't refute a chappy dread tough...
cheaper? Depends if the things we have to give up are worth the discount.
Next? Our zeal is in control, we can be patient too . Update something else.
Rage USR? noooooooooooooo
Current charaters stay. We don't have enough to loose one, so not a surprise.
Special EC. Hail the founder of the BT....
New abilities of sword brethren? Sure, a replacement of the veteran skills.
New abilities of Land Raiders? Don't add something silly

The new 5 model / double usage design GW runs actually isn't really an option if going horde.
Thus I doubt a neophytes kit. Maybe a 5 swordbrethren ( veterans or command squad ) , 5 crusader ( troops with CS / BP or boltgun + integrated upgrade kit ), a chaplain dread, one new big kit and a few fincosted characters are what we could get.
Marines also got their iron steeds called bikes, we don't need horses.
I am not looking forward to see my Templars turned into bretonnians in space.

kenshin620 wrote:
Space Marine Horsemen, I'm calling it! (hey Space Wolves cant have all the cavalry fun )

Or maybe a Popemobile like in the Empire

Dear Emperor, I hope I'm/the rumor is not correct. This could be dreadfully silly

Seconded. Emperor preserve us!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I just wait until they decide some other army will sell better (Tau, maybe, if they really expand the Asian market) and then put MEQ through the same thing as everyone else gets.

Oh, you mean having an old Codex with limited options? Don't worry, we're already there. After all, if those of us who play DA or BT use another Codex, we're instantly assumed to be "just another WAAC powergamer". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Oh, and since we play marines, which everyone knows are the scourge of all things nice, we totally deserve to wait for a new Codex. In fact, we should feel ashamed for daring to play a non-Xenos army that we happen to like.

In all honesty the FAQ/errata that updated your weapons/gear to the new stats, made thows books kinda boss. especially since they get cyclone missile launchers and storm shields slightly cheaper if I remember correctly.

Man. I know alot of Dark Eldar and Necrons players who would of killed for a update like that well everyone eals was getting shiny new codexs.

Truely Games-Workshop cares nothing for their Black Templar and Dark Angles players......


No. Realy. Why is their all this talk about how hard Dark Angles and Black Templar are being treated by the GW update scheduled? That errata alone is more then GW has ever given a xenos book of the same age, or older.

Not to mention as one Black Templar player at my LGS put it. "I can give my whole army preferred enemy 'you' for 50 points. Their is no way I'm going to get anything nearly that awesome in a new book." He has been quite happily using that to his advantage.

Lockark wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I just wait until they decide some other army will sell better (Tau, maybe, if they really expand the Asian market) and then put MEQ through the same thing as everyone else gets.

Oh, you mean having an old Codex with limited options? Don't worry, we're already there. After all, if those of us who play DA or BT use another Codex, we're instantly assumed to be "just another WAAC powergamer". Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

Oh, and since we play marines, which everyone knows are the scourge of all things nice, we totally deserve to wait for a new Codex. In fact, we should feel ashamed for daring to play a non-Xenos army that we happen to like.

In all honesty the FAQ/errata that updated your weapons/gear to the new stats, made thows books kinda boss. especially since they get cyclone missile launchers and storm shields slightly cheaper if I remember correctly.

Man. I know alot of Dark Eldar and Necrons players who would of killed for a update like that well everyone eals was getting shiny new codexs.

Truely Games-Workshop cares nothing for their Black Templar and Dark Angles players......


No. Realy. Why is their all this talk about how hard Dark Angles and Black Templar are being treated by the GW update scheduled? That errata alone is more then GW has ever given a xenos book of the same age, or older.

Not to mention as one Black Templar player at my LGS put it. "I can give my whole army preferred enemy 'you' for 50 points. Their is no way I'm going to get anything nearly that awesome in a new book." He has been quite happily using that to his advantage.

I think you missed the part where the, fluff-wise, most assaulty Space Marine Chapter is forced to run a gunline to be competitive, and still fall behind quite a bit. Our only good assault unit is Assault Terminators, and while they're awesome they more or less need a LRC, which in turn limits the amount of them we can cram into a list. Hence the gunline, hence my comment about limited options.

Chaos can still fight with the Double fzorgle/Blitspam list, Mechdar can still bite people. While I'm not going to argue that the FAQ update gave Templars a much needed boost, it didn't put the Templars very far ahead of theses armies, at all. Considering how painful the Codex was to play before the FAQ (and I say this as a devout Black Templars player), combined with the fact that the FAQ merely gave us a fighting chance, I'm going to stand by my opinion that we need a new Codex.

As a final note (and not trying to nitpick or anything, just pointing out), our Storm Shields now cost just as much as anyone else. We also do not get cheaper Cyclone Missile Launchers, we do get the option to take two in a 5-man Termie squad though. What you're thinking of is probably our cheaper Land Speeder Typhoons, that are 20 points cheaper than that of other Chapters.

Updated main page. New one from Harry.

Well it is only a small thing but it is quite a big thing if it is accurate. I say 'If' as I heard it quite a long time ago (well over a year ago and I am a bit fuzzy on the details) But I think I picked up that Jes was working on Black Templars possibly with Juan Diaz or Seb Perbet?

Which are some nice names to throw around for any army. Wouldn't you agree?


I take it nobody knows who is writing the codex now. Too much cotradicition. But this is what rumours are so great.

Sidstyler wrote:
I think, at least in the case of DA anyway, that this is almost intentional. As it's been pointed out to me (because people assume I'm just ignorant and don't know this gak), all the Marine codices are supposed to have different styles of play, as part of their justification for making separate codices for all these chapters in the first place. It makes sense to me that the DA codex makes it difficult to field an army of regular Marines, because that's what GW made C:SM for. DA would be kinda bs if it was just C:SM, but with extras. Why would you ever have a reason to play C:SM at that point, unless you were one of those types who felt like they were shackled to their army codex and weren't "allowed" to use another one (like all the people who get angry at "army-hopping", mostly perpetrated by Chaos players because they have one of the worst codices in the game).

DA still need an update, I'm just saying don't expect them to drop the cost of all the basic Marine stuff like you're expecting. They'll probably just make Deathwing/Ravenwing armies better since that's what makes the codex unique, so that C:SM is still the best way to go for a vanilla Marine army.

Dark Angel's are over-costed because they were among the small number of codicies that Jervis decided needed a new 'improved & simplified' design philosophy... They started it with Eldar iirc, then came DA's and finally the whole fiasco was abandoned after the abomination that was the Codex: Spiky Marines who-need-banners-to-remember-what-God-they're-supposed-to-be-worshiping!
DA's also have a very distinct lack of options across their IC's and sergeants with the latter being limited to just power toy/fist + plasma pistol. (no storm bolters or combi-weapons for the original legion ) The only things you could honestly claim to be 'better' in a DA army are the specialist 'wings' and the company vets who can now mix & match into a psudo sternguard/vanguard combination. (but without the specialist bolter rounds or 'heroic intervention/jump pack options)

Templars are in dire need of a new 'dex simply to get rid of their armoury if nothing else! Of course, cleaning up their special rules will be quite welcomed and giving them some viable way to play a more assaulty army in a competitive setting would be nifty as well!



Now if Templars are getting a new type of dreadknight style kit, then I really hope GW has learned from the craptastic GK version that baby harnesses aren't cool! However, I'd love to see something like a giant reliquary being carried about by robed priests & neophytes led by a swordbrethren like on the cover of the current 'dex!

Davor wrote:
•Possible new Dreadnought, be it Chappy, Durandal, or Relic
•Cheaper points cost rumours and others lead to Horde focus of sorts
•Very likely it will be the next codex to be released, Rumored March-May
•Rage USR (or something similar) seems to make its way in with/for RZ

Dreadnought Chaplain is fluffy. I could see that as the way to give an army wide version of the current profile for Preferred Enemy. So, if the rumors for the new version of Preferred Enemy are true (reroll in the assault AND the shooting phases), don't expect BT to have that USR outright.

Make it March, that way we can have three codexes AND a new edition.

I'll bet diamonds to donuts that they don't get Rage, but something like it.

Davor wrote:I take it nobody knows who is writing the codex now. Too much cotradicition. But this is what rumours are so great.

Well, we have this, as Phil Kelly seems to have a Black Templar army:

Jared van Kell wrote:Black Templars on the other hand was always going to be Phil Kelly's pet project. The only way Ward or Cruddace would ever get the Black Templars codex off him would be to prise the rough drafts out from his cold...dead...hands.

Kroothawk wrote:

Davor wrote:I take it nobody knows who is writing the codex now. Too much cotradicition. But this is what rumours are so great.

Well, we have this, as Phil Kelly seems to have a Black Templar army:

Jared van Kell wrote:Black Templars on the other hand was always going to be Phil Kelly's pet project. The only way Ward or Cruddace would ever get the Black Templars codex off him would be to prise the rough drafts out from his cold...dead...hands.

Phil Kelly seems to be the most pervasive rumor, but who knows if any of these rumors are reliable.

Experiment 626 wrote:DA's also have a very distinct lack of options across their IC's and sergeants with the latter being limited to just power toy/fist + plasma pistol. (no storm bolters or combi-weapons for the original legion ) The only things you could honestly claim to be 'better' in a DA army are the specialist 'wings' and the company vets who can now mix & match into a psudo sternguard/vanguard combination. (but without the specialist bolter rounds or 'heroic intervention/jump pack options)

This stuff mostly just proves that I was right, though, that GW purposely designed DA so that the only viable ways to run a DA army are with one of the "wings", and that the intent isn't to turn the various SM codices into "C:SM+". Because like I said, if Dark Angels got everything Codex Marines got, and got the stuff that made DA unique, what reason would you ever have to run a vanilla Marine army using the vanilla codex? Space Wolves and Blood Angels aren't just "C:SM+", and I don't expect them to make BT or DA any different when it's their turn.

And I'd also like to point out that Tau still have an armoury in their codex, so BT aren't exactly unique in that regard, either.

gendoikari87 wrote:i'm glad to see BT get the WD codex they deserve!

I have found that the WD codices were always rather bad, without exception.

I think that was the point, he was probably being sarcastic.

Sidstyler wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:DA's also have a very distinct lack of options across their IC's and sergeants with the latter being limited to just power toy/fist + plasma pistol. (no storm bolters or combi-weapons for the original legion ) The only things you could honestly claim to be 'better' in a DA army are the specialist 'wings' and the company vets who can now mix & match into a psudo sternguard/vanguard combination. (but without the specialist bolter rounds or 'heroic intervention/jump pack options)

This stuff mostly just proves that I was right, though, that GW purposely designed DA so that the only viable ways to run a DA army are with one of the "wings", and that the intent isn't to turn the various SM codices into "C:SM+". Because like I said, if Dark Angels got everything Codex Marines got, and got the stuff that made DA unique, what reason would you ever have to run a vanilla Marine army using the vanilla codex? Space Wolves and Blood Angels aren't just "C:SM+", and I don't expect them to make BT or DA any different when it's their turn.

And I'd also like to point out that Tau still have an armoury in their codex, so BT aren't exactly unique in that regard, either.

*sigh*

DA's were done by Jervis to a new design model that sucked and was abandoned after just 3 codicies because the player base rebelled against it so vocally. Note that Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels & Codex: Spiky Marines did not add a single new unit to those armies, while the Codex: Orks (the first book of the current design model), only added minor things like the shokk attack gun back into the mix.
All three of those armies got the shaft by GW and even Jervis admits that in hindsight, it was a silly idea to over simplify to that level. All three of those books should honestly be within the next slew of 4-5 books so that those players can finally get some of the love that other armies have been showered with.

Codex: Space Marines came out well after DA's so things like the ironclad & redeemer didn't exist yet.
When DA's get re-done you'll see them get the redeemer and perhaps 1 or 2 other newer codex options. (the thunderfire cannon would go well since DA's are supposed to be the stubborn shooty chapter) They'll also get a new non-codex option or three to help differentiate them as well.

I'm really hoping that GW does the following in all honesty;
- Templars then Tau. Get rid of those damn armouries and bring these poor guys into the new edition since they've been unloved for so long!

- Eldar (bring back some of the old school stuff and add some options to the book, plus the night spinner so you don't have to carry around lose photocopies of rules!)

- Chaos Marines/Legions (if these guys are going to be 'the big threat' in 6th ed, treat them like it and give them a proper fething book, not the pile of blandhammer we currently have!)

- Dark Angels (poor, poor DA's... Always the neglected space marines because you wear bath robes and like to cry in the corner! )

A cogent post. Inconceivable!

Agree with your points, Stitch.

What was the old design model like?

DoctorZombie wrote:What was the old design model like?

Take a current codex marine tactical squad entry, remove all sergeant options beyond power toy/fist + plasma pistol. Also only allow additional marines to be bought as a 5-man package deal and no 'freebie' upgrades. Basically, make the squad cost about 10-20pts more than what codex marines pay for the same thing!
Oh, and remove scouts as a Troops choice and put them in Elites instead! (but DA scouts are the same BS as all other marines!)

By the time you get to assault squads, you don't even want to know how the points differ it's that bad!

Templars by virtue of their age suffer a similar problem with their specialist units as their assault & bike squads tend to cost more pts than other marines pay.



Hopefully the rumors are true'ish and we get Templars within the first half of the year so that the army gets some viability and flavour injected back into it!

And while I'm really hoping against mounted 'knights', I'd like to see GW give Templars their own version of a dreadknight just to see what a mk2 'improved' look can do for the baby harness! (worst model of 2011 imho is the dreadknight... It's just so silly looking!)

Experiment 626 wrote:*sigh*

My feelings exactly...

Experiment 626 wrote:DA's were done by Jervis to a new design model that sucked and was abandoned after just 3 codicies because the player base rebelled against it so vocally. Note that Codex: Eldar, Codex: Dark Angels & Codex: Spiky Marines did not add a single new unit to those armies, while the Codex: Orks (the first book of the current design model), only added minor things like the shokk attack gun back into the mix.
All three of those armies got the shaft by GW and even Jervis admits that in hindsight, it was a silly idea to over simplify to that level. All three of those books should honestly be within the next slew of 4-5 books so that those players can finally get some of the love that other armies have been showered with.

Thanks for the history lesson, but I already know all of this full well, since I joined the hobby (and the online community) not long before Dark Angels were released and even participated in a few arguments about this new design philosophy myself. DA and CSM in particular were both kind of underwhelming (CSM moreso since DA at least had the "-wing" thing going for them), but begrudgingly accepted by most people because it was assumed at the time that this would be the new standard and every codex would get that treatment...then C:SM came out and pissed off everyone, even other Marine players as it was made official that their favorite chapter actually revered the Ultramarines and considered Roboute Guilliman (forgive my spelling) their "spiritual liege", and Calgar became the coolest guy in the galaxy who could strangle Avatars with his bare hands and doesn't afraid of anything. And that's before even getting into the rules.

Experiment 626 wrote:Codex: Space Marines came out well after DA's so things like the ironclad & redeemer didn't exist yet.

I never implied that DA had ironclads or redeemers. The only thing I'm disputing is the idea that DA will automatically get them just because they weren't around yet when they were updated, because neither BA nor SW got ironclads or thunderfire cannons, both are still unique to C:SM despite the fact that they came out after. Because like I said, in my opinion anyway, it seems GW want to keep every codex unique and with its own style of play, and not just doing a copy+paste job of C:SM and adding stuff to that.

Experiment 626 wrote:When DA's get re-done you'll see them get the redeemer and perhaps 1 or 2 other newer codex options. (the thunderfire cannon would go well since DA's are supposed to be the stubborn shooty chapter) They'll also get a new non-codex option or three to help differentiate them as well.

They'll probably get the LR redeemer, I'll give you that, but you're making a big assumption in thinking that your codex is going to get the same units that two other Marine variants were each passed on already. Where are the BA or SW ironclads and thunderfire cannons? Just because you think it would fit doesn't mean you'll get it...BA players thought cheap thundershield termies would fit pretty well in their assault-themed codex, too, but people tried to run them like that and it didn't really work as well, because GW came up with new units for BA players that they wanted them to run instead.

Therefore I think it's more reasonable to expect DA to not get thunderfire cannons, but a new unit entirely that fits their "stubborn, shooty" nature, and might even end up being better for them than a thunderfire cannon would have been. The new DA codex will probably have its focus stay on the "-wing" variants and more shooty units, I'm not arguing about that, I'm just saying that every Marine codex is going to have its own style of play, and if you expect DA to be a "better" version of C:SM you're probably wrong, because GW has proven so far that not everyone is going to get what C:SM gets. C:SM having it in their book doesn't mean you're guaranteed to get it in yours.

Does anyone understand what it is I'm trying to say now? I'm trying to explain what I'm thinking but it's apparently still not coming out all that clear. I'm not saying DA aren't going to get new stuff when they get redone, I fully expect them to get the same treatment the other chapters got. All I was trying to say is that DA players who didn't want to run a "-wing" army were better off running C:SM, like you said, and that it would probably continue to be true even after they get updated. I wasn't trying to imply that GW actually planned that far ahead and designed DA to be more expensive in comparison to C:SM on purpose, just that a vanilla Marine army would probably still work better with C:SM than an updated DA book.

The same thing is true now for BA players that want to run a more "vanilla" army and aren't interested in taking any of the units that make them different. If you're not going to spam assault squads and take stuff like Death Company or Baal preds etc., you're probably better off running with C:SM instead. I think some BA players learned that already when they tried to run terminators like C:SM does, there are just better things in the BA book.

I've bought myself an Emperor's champion together with the codex not so long ago.

They really are awesome stuff already, they aren't bad are they? In my eyes, the only reason why they should get a new dex is because their named character's are crap xD total crap. Still still, I like the codex now, we have like the holy hand gre.. I mean Holy orb of Antioch!

Haven't read the entire discussion :p seems like alot I still need to learn :p

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you missed the part where the, fluff-wise, most assaulty Space Marine Chapter is forced to run a gunline to be competitive,.

Yah I know. It's not like the best Blood Angle lists are gun line or anything- oh. wait.....

I think it's safe to say the fluff of the army shouldn't really have that much of a bearing on if it should be updated. Because as seen sometimes GW doesn't even update the codexs to even play that way their fluff says they should.


As to the rest of your post. That dosen't make what I said irrelevant. Black Templars and Dark angles HAVE been treated better then many other codexes who were of similar age, or EVEN OLDER. The older SM books have gotten erratas that do try to level the playing field for them. That isn't a bad thing, I would love to see GW do that more often. The problem is GW has never realy done that for the xenos... Agien that's better then how any xeno book that old has ever been treated.

O.o

Not really saying one way or the other that they "should" or "shouldn't" be updated. More that if your a loyalist SM, GW usely has your interests at heart before alot of other armies.

RutgerMan wrote:I've bought myself an Emperor's champion together with the codex not so long ago.

They really are awesome stuff already, they aren't bad are they? In my eyes, the only reason why they should get a new dex is because their named character's are crap xD total crap. Still still, I like the codex now, we have like the holy hand gre.. I mean Holy orb of Antioch!

Haven't read the entire discussion :p seems like alot I still need to learn :p

They have ups and down on both sides. To kit a Initiate out up to par with a current Marine (frag/krak nades) adds an extra 3 points onto them, which adds up once you have a few Crusader Squads, and Frag Grenades are something an assault army needs. A lot of things that every Marine army uses just costs more, an extra 15 points per Rhinos and 30 points per Razorback, before you buy things that come standard in newer marine books can be annoying. Drop Pods are the same, but with no "drop pod assault" rule they could be sitting off-board until turn 6. That's just the Troops and transports sections.

This can be balanced out by other things that have gotten cheaper or benefits from 5th ED like Preferred Enemy changing. Plasma weapons are cheap as chips unlike the Meltas which cost double, ect.

- Dark Angels (poor, poor DA's... Always the neglected space marines because you wear bath robes and like to cry in the corner! )

That's what you get for going to the dark side, suckas!

Lockark wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I think you missed the part where the, fluff-wise, most assaulty Space Marine Chapter is forced to run a gunline to be competitive,.

Yah I know. It's not like the best Blood Angle lists are gun line or anything- oh. wait.....

There's a difference between having the best lists be gunline (which I'd argue they're not, what with fast Baal Predators, Razorbacks and Assault Marines rushing up the field) and having the only viable list be a gunline.

Lockark wrote:
As to the rest of your post. That dosen't make what I said irrelevant. Black Templars and Dark angles HAVE been treated better then many other codexes who were of similar age, or EVEN OLDER. The older SM books have gotten erratas that do try to level the playing field for them. That isn't a bad thing, I would love to see GW do that more often. The problem is GW has never realy done that for the xenos... Agien that's better then how any xeno book that old has ever been treated.

It is also better than any Marine Codex has been treated earlier. The thing is, it's really only doable with loyalist codices that have fallen behind. All they had to do was copypaste the rules for wargear from C:SM and add 5 points to the cost of Storm Shields. While I'm on your side in this issue and think that they should do this to EVERY army, it's way more complicated to do for those who aren't Spess Mehrens.

Mirbeau over at Warseer wrote:A little update - I still think (though not sure if others are 100% on this) Templars are the next book, but there are some miniatures for others to come first....

Roll up, roll up for the Magical Mystery Codex, step right this way!


Roll up - roll up for the Mystery Codex
Roll up - roll up for the Mystery Codex

Roll up
That's an invitation
Roll up for the Mystery Codex
Roll up
to make a pre-order
Roll up for the Mystery Codex

The Magical Mystery Codex
is waiting to take your wallet away
waiting to take your wallet away

if its not worth it don't buy it, if you got the money drop it. quit complaining. actions speak louder than words

tkrettler91 wrote:if its not worth it don't buy it, if you got the money drop it. quit complaining. actions speak louder than words

I was referring to GW's habit of not revealing a codex until the last min, so no one knows if it's any good. Which is bad if, for example, you intend to buy it right away because you play that army...

And, frankly, doing it in that manner is much more fun than, say, grousing about it in a moaning, whiny manner. Cue the Musical Number.

BaronIveagh wrote:

tkrettler91 wrote:if its not worth it don't buy it, if you got the money drop it. quit complaining. actions speak louder than words

I was referring to GW's habit of not revealing a codex until the last min, so no one knows if it's any good. Which is bad if, for example, you intend to buy it right away because you play that army...

And, frankly, doing it in that manner is much more fun than, say, grousing about it in a moaning, whiny manner. Cue the Musical Number.

But if you play that army you're going to buy the codex anyway (and pray that it doesn't suck) since you've already sunk your fortune into building that army.

Smegmalicious wrote:
But if you play that army you're going to buy the codex anyway (and pray that it doesn't suck) since you've already sunk your fortune into building that army.

Nah, just do what I do: retire that army and use one of your other ones until the next edition or wait for a FAQ to buff it. (However, my 'crons are on hiatus due to Ward, but We'll Be Back as soon as he's not the writer)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Smegmalicious wrote:
But if you play that army you're going to buy the codex anyway (and pray that it doesn't suck) since you've already sunk your fortune into building that army.

Nah, just do what I do: retire that army and use one of your other ones until the next edition or wait for a FAQ to buff it. (However, my 'crons are on hiatus due to Ward, but We'll Be Back as soon as he's not the writer)

My plan would be to make them Fallen Templars if the book truly sucks.

BaronIveagh wrote:(However, my 'crons are on hiatus due to Ward, but We'll Be Back as soon as he's not the writer)

Wait, what? Are you implying that the new Necron codex is not a million times better than the old one in both rules and fluff?

The idea of this dreadknight-esque siege weapon interests me.

Walking Vindicator?

ph34r wrote:Wait, what? Are you implying that the new Necron codex is not a million times better than the old one in both rules and fluff?

Only in the sense that being torn apart in the slow time of a black hole while forced to relive the worst moments of your life is a million times better than having sex with twin super models on top your millions of dollars in lottery winnings while smoking a Cuban cigar and downing shots of Irish whiskey.

Wait, what?

Ozymandias wrote:Wait, what?

Yah that metaphor confused me also. I don't get how the new codex is "a black whole the forces you to relive the worst moments of your life".
O.o

I'm no fan of ward, by I do actually really like the new cron fluff more. I realy like the parts about the cron's looking for new bodies, reminds me of the "great race" from the lovecraft mythos. I also dug the crazy/eccentric Necron royalty and the shenanigans of going insane after the eons of slumber. Alot of fun story ideas in that.

well i just started templars and bought a venerable and land raider crusader so it better work out. i hope they get a flyer though i will be disappointed if they don't.

Only in the sense that being torn apart in the slow time of a black hole while forced to relive the worst moments of your life is a million times better than having sex with twin super models on top your millions of dollars in lottery winnings while smoking a Cuban cigar and downing shots of Irish whiskey.

wow, tad dramatic dontcha think? also Irish whisky is generally spelled with a "y", the "ey" is an American thing.

We can't really judge the new BT codex until we see some leaks- or teasers,neither of which are forthcoming as of now.

The new Necron codex is well done. From the fluff to the units to the war gear and rules.

Anyone that pines over the old necrons should really just walk away from the game. You're not someone I want to play or even listen to.

And shave your neckbeard.