Quite right, but let's give details. And that would be obvious since they would only dare attack while our backs are turned, the cowards. Even the CSM have honor, fighting face to face.
CSM attack face on? Apart from in a massive black crusade, when does that happen? Usually they work behind the scenes, manipulating cultists and renegades, or strike at weakly defended outposts or convoys. CSMs certainly don't fight with honour.
Are we talking like the Imperium's full might here? The Tau would get steamrolled. There simply aren't that many of them; only a handful of planets compared to the millions of millions of Imperial worlds.
monkeypuzzle wrote:CSM attack face on? Apart from in a massive black crusade, when does that happen? Usually they work behind the scenes, manipulating cultists and renegades, or strike at weakly defended outposts or convoys. CSMs certainly don't fight with honour.
Let me clarify. Khornates. My mistake. Either it's because Khorne doesn't like tricks, or they're too far gone with bloodlust to think. Or maybe both.
No, I don't think so. But if there's a new campaign against the Tau, them damn the cost of importing. I'm building an army and I'm gonna kick xenos ass. Or bust heads. Either way will work.
Tau: Strenghts: (a) Rapid technological adaptation and (b) high levels of societal organisation/focus.
Weakness: (i) Inferior absolute numbers and (ii) technological deficits in key areas (e.g. Warp travel).
Imperium: Strenghts: (c) Superiour absolute numbers and (d) more advanced technology in key areas (e.g. Warp travel).
Weakness: (iii) Very slow technological adaptation and (iv) high level of societal fragementation/disunity.
Status Quo: Strengths and Weaknesses of the two factions basically balance each other out. Eternal war continues with neither side ever truly winning.
Hypothetical: If either faction overcomes its weaknesses without sacrificing its strenghts while the other faction remains unchanged, said faction would likely win the conflict decidedly.
Tadashi wrote:No, I don't think so. But if there's a new campaign against the Tau, them damn the cost of importing. I'm building an army and I'm gonna kick xenos ass. Or bust heads. Either way will work.
You're going to start a 40k army (Blood Ravens presumably), damning the importation costs that were preventing you from collecting it in the first place, just so you can take part in any fictional crusade against the Tau on the tabletop?
You're either extremely xenophobic, an Imperialist fanboy, or both. Either way, you're one hell of a devoted guy.
Your post assumes they have forces of relatively equal size. The full might of the Imperium wouldn't be Rocky vs. Apollo Creed, it would be an ant vs. a sledgehammer. The Tau are a VERY small race in the scheme of 40k. Humanity is described as having "millions of millions of world" and "to be a man in such times is to be a man of untold billions" while the Tau just control a few planets in the Eastern Fringe. The Tau would not stand a chance against the Imperium in all their might.
Tadashi wrote:No, I don't think so. But if there's a new campaign against the Tau, them damn the cost of importing. I'm building an army and I'm gonna kick xenos ass. Or bust heads. Either way will work.
You're going to start a 40k army (Blood Ravens presumably), damning the importation costs that were preventing you from collecting it in the first place, just so you can take part in any fictional crusade against the Tau on the tabletop?
You're either extremely xenophobic, an Imperialist fanboy, or both. Either way, you're one hell of a devoted guy.
The latter. And yes, it's probably gonna be a Blood Ravens army.
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Brother SRM wrote:Your post assumes they have forces of relatively equal size. The full might of the Imperium wouldn't be Rocky vs. Apollo Creed, it would be an ant vs. a sledgehammer. The Tau are a VERY small race in the scheme of 40k. Humanity is described as having "millions of millions of world" and "to be a man in such times is to be a man of untold billions" while the Tau just control a few planets in the Eastern Fringe. The Tau would not stand a chance against the Imperium in all their might.
Small wonder the Tau only dare confront the Imperium when the Imperium's back is turned. Like the 13th Black Crusade for instance.
Brother SRM wrote:Your post assumes they have forces of relatively equal size. The full might of the Imperium wouldn't be Rocky vs. Apollo Creed, it would be an ant vs. a sledgehammer. The Tau are a VERY small race in the scheme of 40k. Humanity is described as having "millions of millions of world" and "to be a man in such times is to be a man of untold billions" while the Tau just control a few planets in the Eastern Fringe. The Tau would not stand a chance against the Imperium in all their might.
True. But the "if" of "if the Imperium would focus all its might on a single enemy" is about as likely as the "if" of "if the Tau suddenly, miraculously expanded to the size of the Imperium in numbers and resources". So things are pretty much even in the given Status Quo. If you start being hypothetical, you can make either factions win or loose depending on what hypothetical change you introduce to the equation.
Tadashi wrote:The latter. And yes, it's probably gonna be a Blood Ravens army.
Well you should know that being an Imperialist fanboy = extremely xenophobic in most cases. The sight of my Eldar Farseer forum avatar must fill you with rage, for the Emperor.
Tadashi wrote:Small wonder the Tau only dare confront the Imperium when the Imperium's back is turned. Like the 13th Black Crusade for instance.
Tau dont make an active decision to only expand when the Imperium is against them. They're always expanding, and looking to extend the reach of their Empire. They were able to make their 3rd Sphere expansion, not because they attack the Imperium's back per se, but because the Imperium could not allocate as much resources to stopping their expansion as before. There is a subtle difference, I think.
No. I have a great deal of respect for the Eldar. Strangely enough, I just can't hate the Eldar to the same degree as the Tau. Probably because the Eldar aren't naive and are, well, as grimdark as the Imperium. And the Orks, well, they strike me as very funny for some reason.
Tau would win, and the Imperium would leave because of a "disturbance" elsewhere.
Why? Because they still sell Tau.
All of the Imperium against all the Tau would be a campaign that lasts about 5 hours. With an obvious Imperial Victory.
And Tau do not attack the Imperium when it's back is turned. They do not know of the Current events outside of the Empire and the planets that are in Negotiation to join the Empire.
They most likely never knew of the Black Crusade or the Cadian Gate, and probably never will. They are always just trying to expand (well that's a lie. They aren't working on the 4th expansion yet because of the events on Medusa. They couldn't get enough info on the warp storm or warp travel and decided to put off the next expansion for the time being while they hammer that out.)
JohnnoM wrote:Imperium would win, cause of sheer numbers.
This x 10.000.000.000.000....
There is no way that Tau, no matter what tech it had, can withstand an entire might of Imperial Crusade ( am I talking about a crusade size of Solar Macharious one ).
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Iur_tae_mont wrote:
And Tau do not attack the Imperium when it's back is turned.
Not at all....they just wait until Imperium draw some forces from the area and then attack with full might against few defenders.
It'd be like if Russia invaded Sweden. Sure, one side is technologically advanced, enlightened, sophisticated...but they still wouldn't stand a chance.
inb4 Winter War
The most probably thing that can happen to Tau would be a GIGANTIC Tyranid fleet noming their entire empire. While Calgar seat in orbit and eat Emperor's popcorn...
Brother Coa wrote:The most probably thing that can happen to Tau would be a GIGANTIC Tyranid fleet noming their entire empire. While Calgar seat in orbit and eat Emperor's popcorn...
Well, given Calgar's abysmal performance against the Tyranids ( and the fact that this time there is no 200 ships warfleet around to save his precious, metalic butt ) i would rather think that he runs as fast as his mechanical legs can carry him before the Nids finish what they started two hundred years ago.
While we can take some real-world examples of small, technologically-inferior groups defeating much larger, more advanced groups, the important distinction in these cases is that the larger group was not practicing what the Imperial Guard practices, which is the philosophy of "total war".
The IG does not worry about body count. The IG does not worry about what the "folks back home" think of the war. The IG does not worry about war crimes or inhumane acts or any other such thing that our modern nations contend with in the theater of war. When the IG goes into fight a war, it goes in 100% and seeks to establish superiority (with the assistance of the Imperial Navy of course) over all facets of the conflict. Artillery domination, air superiority, massive mobilization and control of the ground, establishment of secured supply lines, disruption, destruction and then subordination of enemy communication grids.
The only thing that saved the Tau the last time was the appearance of a Hive Fleet, which required the re-deployment of the Damocles Gulf Crusade to combat. Had that not happened, the Tau would be nothing but a foot-note in Imperial history.
Don't get me wrong, I like the Tau, even if their naivety is a bit... silly... but, as I and others have said in all of these debates, there's simply not enough of them. Even with their Kroot and Vespid allies. There's not enough of any of them.
Not to mention the Astartes. The Sword of the Emperor will cut the Tau to pieces. And the Astartes have managed to use the Tau's own maneuver war tactics against them. If the Tau like ambushing and outflanking the Imperial Guard, the Astartes will show them that the Imperium can do it too. The Astartes EXCEL in maneuver warfare.
Tadashi wrote:Not to mention the Astartes. The Sword of the Emperor will cut the Tau to pieces. And the Astartes have managed to use the Tau's own maneuver war tactics against them. If the Tau like ambushing and outflanking the Imperial Guard, the Astartes will show them that the Imperium can do it too. The Astartes EXCEL in maneuver warfare.
The Astartes lack the numbers for any kind of serious warfare on their own. They most certainly have their uses ( spearheads, special operations and the like )
but if you think that a few companies of spacemarines are sufficient to combat the Tau Empire's usual advantage of greater mobility and ( usualy ) firepower then you are most certainly mistaken. Elysian/ Harakoni regiments or even just vehicle mounted infantry, which can bring considerable firepower in far greater numbers without sacrificing mobility would be the wiser choice.
The Astartes don't need to confront the Tau directly. They'd just cut the Tau defenses, supply and communication lines, and deliver the 'killing blow' to the Tau Command. Mop up and consolidation can be left to the Imperial Guard.
No reasonable Tau fan (of which I consider myself one) would expect that the Tau could withstand a concerted effort by the Imperium to wipe them out. The Imperium are the big kids on the block and, with the possible exception of the Tyranids and the Orcs, the Imperium can crush any other faction in the galaxy through a combination of endless numbers (Guard), elite forces (Marines) and massive war machines (Titans).
However, I think no reasonable fan of the Imperium should think that the Imperium is concerned enough about the Tau to do anything about them at this point. The Emperor may finally fully expire, the forces of Chaos are popping up everywhere, Orks are rampaging across entire sectors, Necron Tomb Worlds are awakening below their feet and the Tyranids are poised to wipe out all life in the galaxy. That ignores heresy and treason, internal division, a bureaucracy gone mad and the annoyances of pirates and Dark Eldar.
So could the Imperium crush the Tau? Most definitely.
Will the Imperium crush the Tau? I suspect if you asked the leaders of the Imperium the answer would probably be "The who?" or "Can't you see I'm busy with more important things?"
So the Tau, like the Eldar, will continue to exist if only because the Imperium can't afford to put the time and effort into eliminating a sizable, but finite force that doesn't pose a significant military threat.
I see the tau-iom war as something like the eastern front during world war 2. Only with the tau being the size of luxemburg. And the soviets like the size of the rest of the world. The only thing is is that aliens are attacking and the soviets cant bring the full force to bear.
And you really dont even need the astrades. Catachann, eleysian, and harkonian style regiments can provide all of the mobile elelments and then some. I mean the Imperial Guard only provides like 99.99999999999999999% of the Imperiums fighting forces, at least planet side. Let the ultrasmurfs do more important things. Like polishing their armor...
Tadashi wrote:Ironic isn't it? But that's how Astartes do things. All in a day's work for a Space Marine, I guess.
It's not to surprising though. Of all the armies, the IoM and the tau are most alike. You know something funny though. I can't think of any time that the IG beat the tau by themselves. It seems like only SMs can beat the tau.
Poorly trained pdfs are not the ig. Also the tau attack where they have outnumbered the ig regiments significantly. Except for the damoas gulf crusade, which was poorly organized and executed, and was small. And the only reason the iom lost was that the nids where attacking. Give athe iom a proper crusade, ie sabbot worlds or similer and the tau are no more. However the tau have like 16 worlds. Hardly worth noticing.
Yeah, so far in the Fluff the tau have demosntrated repeated superiority over the Guard through mobility and firepower. They've even been known to crack Titans.
So far, only the Marines have shown the right combination of attributes to make things happen. The Tactical Acumen and Mobility to force the Tau to stand and fight, the Firepower to hurt the excellent Tau Battlesuits and Vehicles, and the Protection to move through the Tau firestorm and land telling blows.
But it does make sense when you think about it. The Tau are essentially guard who traded numerical superiority for technological superiority. The Marines are superior fighting men who happened to be equipped to a similar level (though not exactly the same) as the Tau. So for the Tau it's like facing themselves, but only better.
If you look at the attributes of a Marine, they can all be found in a Tau force, but no 1 unit has more than 2 of them.
For Examle:
WS 4 - Kroot
BS 4 - Not organic to any unit but the HQs, but several of them can be upgraded to it (if only temporarily).
S 4 - Kroot again
T 4 - Battlesuits and the Vespid
I 4 - Drones (Kroot Hounds and Vespid are I 5 though)
Ld 8 - Battlesuits and squad leaders only
Sv 3+ - Battlesuits only
So a Space Marine can be certain of being superior to any Tau unit he encounters in all but a couple of measures. It's no wonder they fair so much better against them than the Guard.
It would also help if there was more tau fluff then what is in the tau codex. And if the go to guys to be gw whipping boys weren't the flannerized version of the ig.
If you look at stats the ig out range the tau on most weapons. Most tau weapons cut off at 36in tops. While the majority of guard weapons are atleast 36in or greater. I used to piss off this one tau guy because every thing but my lasguns out ranged him.
Only on tabletop is there a big distinction between IG and marines. They are both "imperium" they act as one force.
"Right so there's a Tau stronghold there. Shall we send in the IG to get butchered or shall we send in the marines who'll win with minimal casualties?"
Also, the news that space marines are superior to ordinary imperial guard troopers is not news.
Or if the commander was even halfway competant. Use the artillery of the guard to pound it to dust. While the armor then blitzes, with infantry support. The guard is alot more then mass infantry waves.
Joey wrote:Only on tabletop is there a big distinction between IG and marines. They are both "imperium" they act as one force.
"Right so there's a Tau stronghold there. Shall we send in the IG to get butchered or shall we send in the marines who'll win with minimal casualties?"
Also, the news that space marines are superior to ordinary imperial guard troopers is not news.
Answer seems to be argue about it long enough for the Tau to slip away, send their special forces into the Imperium's rear areas to interfere with his logistics, chain of command and the morale of his troops while the main force arranges an outflanking manoeuvre.
Who really cares? the Tau are a race in the GAME, and I'm pretty sure they are here to stay. really though? if the Imperium put their full might into it they could steamroll quite a few races. that would be tactical suicide though. Given that, I think the Imperium would take some large casualities.
KingDeath wrote:
The Astartes lack the numbers for any kind of serious warfare on their own..
Zeist Campaign.
They still didn't do it on there own. They where sent in as reinforcements and support to local forces. SM can win battles, but not wars. They just don't have the numbers. It was like in that one thread 25 blood angel predators Vs 25 hammerheads. It's about even, but the blood angels only have about 25 predators. SMs can't wage a full war by there own.
Space Marines fight entire, planet-spanning wars all the time. Often you'll find not even an entire Chapter, but just a company waging war against an entire Xenos-race, spanning sometimes multiple planets or systems.
Does it make sense from a "realistical logistical perspective"? No. But if you try that approach, you're most likely wrong in 40K anyhow.
Also, a thousand or even a hundred Space Marines defending (or attacking) entire planets isn't such a stretch anymore, if you consider that guys like Maugan Ra have been known to do it singelhandedly, solo! "Real-world" logistic would most likely have crushed Maugan Ra from the very beginning simply by the amount of ammunition he would need to carry.
Anyhow. "Planets" in 40K aint astronomical "real" planets either. They are "Star-Wars"-planets, consisting usually of one (and only one!) iconic environment/weather-condition and one or two "set-location", usually a human captial/inhabitation and some Xenos/Chaos/something-else-counterpart.
If the conflicts were restricted to relatively equal numbers, the tau would have the upper hand.
They control space combat, only boarding actions tend to have the desired effect against tau ships.
If the whole of the imperium were to attack the tau... wait that's impossible. That means all the orks, nids, dark eldar, necrons, chaos stuffs and eldar would have a complete field day for years until the fleets came back.
So you mean to tell me we are discussing what would happen if the whole of the imperium fought the tau? Well railguns miss sometimes, so...
However, all those forgeworlds, gone. Hive worlds, gone. Marine recruitment worlds, gone. Agri worlds, in ruins. Shipyards, destroyed.
Is it really worth it? In the end, the imperium would have wrecked the tau, and themselves.
Not really. The Tau control at most a hundred worlds, and their warp technology is incredibly primitive. They couldn't strike a million worlds. At most the Imperium would lose several worlds, but the Tau would be...obliterated. After all, if a ground campaign is too expensive, all the Imperial Navy has to do is to hold the line long enough for several Strike Cruisers to get into position for exterminatus.
Brother SRM wrote:Your post assumes they have forces of relatively equal size. The full might of the Imperium wouldn't be Rocky vs. Apollo Creed, it would be an ant vs. a sledgehammer. The Tau are a VERY small race in the scheme of 40k. Humanity is described as having "millions of millions of world" and "to be a man in such times is to be a man of untold billions" while the Tau just control a few planets in the Eastern Fringe. The Tau would not stand a chance against the Imperium in all their might.
The imperium has one million worlds and the nids are nom them.
As an avid tau player/fluff reader, I agree that the imperium, at significant strength, would be like steamrolling a cracker. The tau are (for the time being) unable to use warp travel at all (they are a psychically dead race; not immune to the warp, but unable to manifest any powers of their own or feel the warp)
In equal numbers, its anyone's game. The imperium sent greater numbers against the tau in the Tauros campaign, and lost due to a lack of cohesiveness, and trying to fight a battle of attiration against an army with very little sense of that form of battle. In the damoclies crusade, the imperium had basically hit a stalemate, and would have had to either commit more forces to the crusade, or call it off. The only way to break the stalemate would have been to commit another crusade-sized force, which was impossible.
In all that rambling, the gyist is mainly that tau can kick imperial ass, but only on their own terms: they are simply incapable of fighting on a level equal to that of the imperium. This means no forge/fortress worlds, orbital disintegration, and precious few titans.
Yes, the Tau would be obliterated but the Imperium would lose thousands to hundreds of thousands of worlds when they pulled enough resources from current conflicts to do it.
If you want an example, look at the Damocles Gulf; the imperial forces were in position to really take it to the Tau but they're stretched so thinly that the were forced to draw forces from the area to address a pressing concern in an area on the other side of imperial space. The result was, they sued for peace which the Tau were happy to grant (since they probably got the point that they were about to lose).
Economy of scale. There's really no difference between the Tau Empire and the Imperium; the imperium has greater numbers but a much larger territory to protect from a greater number of threats. The Tau inhabit a small but densely packed area of space with a larger than average number of habitable worlds (Tau codex).
It will be interesting to see what direction the fluff goes since GW has shown they have no problem retconning an entire body of fluff to shoehorn faction equality. If Necrons are any indicator, the Tau will probably no longer be the naieve race they are now nor will they be the tiny, inconsequential faction that you see now.
Tadashi wrote:Not really. The Tau control at most a hundred worlds, and their warp technology is incredibly primitive. They couldn't strike a million worlds.
It's not 'primitive' in terms of technology, but that their race is considered 'blank' to the warp and they simply do not understand what it is, being a race devoid of psykers.
After all, if a ground campaign is too expensive, all the Imperial Navy has to do is to hold the line long enough for several Strike Cruisers to get into position for exterminatus.
That would be improbable. Exterminatus is the tourniquet of the Inquisition for the Imperium of Man. They would not waste it on World's they wouldn't be attacking in the first place.
It's very similar to the ground campaign. The Imperial Navy simply does not have the resources to waste on protecting an Exterminatus Fleet that's trying (and probably failing) at destroying an unblemished Tau World.
There seems to be some mutual respect between the Space Marines and Tau.
Zweischneid wrote:Space Marines fight entire, planet-spanning wars all the time. Often you'll find not even an entire Chapter, but just a company waging war against an entire Xenos-race, spanning sometimes multiple planets or systems.
Does it make sense from a "realistical logistical perspective"? No. But if you try that approach, you're most likely wrong in 40K anyhow.
Also, a thousand or even a hundred Space Marines defending (or attacking) entire planets isn't such a stretch anymore, if you consider that guys like Maugan Ra have been known to do it singelhandedly, solo! "Real-world" logistic would most likely have crushed Maugan Ra from the very beginning simply by the amount of ammunition he would need to carry.
Anyhow. "Planets" in 40K aint astronomical "real" planets either. They are "Star-Wars"-planets, consisting usually of one (and only one!) iconic environment/weather-condition and one or two "set-location", usually a human captial/inhabitation and some Xenos/Chaos/something-else-counterpart.
Even the Babar war had a lot of non SM. I can't think of a war that included only SM. Can you?
Zweischneid wrote:Space Marines fight entire, planet-spanning wars all the time. Often you'll find not even an entire Chapter, but just a company waging war against an entire Xenos-race, spanning sometimes multiple planets or systems.
Does it make sense from a "realistical logistical perspective"? No. But if you try that approach, you're most likely wrong in 40K anyhow.
Also, a thousand or even a hundred Space Marines defending (or attacking) entire planets isn't such a stretch anymore, if you consider that guys like Maugan Ra have been known to do it singelhandedly, solo! "Real-world" logistic would most likely have crushed Maugan Ra from the very beginning simply by the amount of ammunition he would need to carry.
Anyhow. "Planets" in 40K aint astronomical "real" planets either. They are "Star-Wars"-planets, consisting usually of one (and only one!) iconic environment/weather-condition and one or two "set-location", usually a human captial/inhabitation and some Xenos/Chaos/something-else-counterpart.
Even the Babar war had a lot of non SM. I can't think of a war that included only SM. Can you?
BlapBlapBlap wrote:All I want to say is that the Communist regime fell once and it will again. Only this time it will happen in SPACE!
But only after it triumphed over the vast feudal Empire that had ruled the lands (large chunks of the galaxy) for aeons before, if history is to be your guide.
BlapBlapBlap wrote:Fine. The outcome remains the same, however. Sure, aeons may seem a long time but the Imperium wins in the end
Well, last time i checked there weren't any feudal empires around when the last communist regime fell, so erm, no.
But on a more serious side, you might be right. Or the Imperium fractures. Or the Rak'Gol enslave/kill/eat/whateverthehelltheydotothosepoorsodswhoarecapturedbythem everything. Or Chaos wins. Or the orks. Who knows?
Give me two full strength chapters, a suitable number of Imperial guard for occupation and Ill take them out.
Two full standard chapters lack even the necessary amount of spacecraft to truly threaten the Tau Empire ( 2-6 grandcruisers/battleship equivalents and a bunch of uparmoured light cruisers is nice, but not that impressive ) or any other even regional power ( Eldar craftworlds, ork empires and the like )
Besides that, if conquering a hundred well defended worlds is that cheap and easy then quite a few imperial warmasters are doing something wrong
Citing the Taros Campaign:
1 full company of Avenging sons Space marine chapter
2 full companies of the Raptors Space Marine chapter
10 full regiments of Imperial guard (3-4k troops per regiment )
and a scout titan detatchment.
Failed to defeat the Tau ( whom deployed around 100 hunter cadres aprox 8-9k firewarriors, and 5k kroot with 8k human aux ) on one planet, and 3 companies of spacemarines would be approx 1/6th of your 2 chapters of astartes.
So go beat your space marine chest somewhere else, the Taros campaign book was a well written and intelligent treatise on a 40k planetary campaign and both sides were well represented, and fought gallantly, the IoM was just out manuvered and defeated.
In a published and recognized GW approved product.
Of course over confidence is wonderful, please have all you want.
And I promised myself I would not get sucked into another one of these pointless threads..oh well.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Citing the Taros Campaign:
1 full company of Avenging sons Space marine chapter
2 full companies of the Raptors Space Marine chapter
10 full regiments of Imperial guard (3-4k troops per regiment )
and a scout titan detatchment.
Failed to defeat the Tau ( whom deployed around 100 hunter cadres aprox 8-9k firewarriors, and 5k kroot with 8k human aux ) on one planet, and 3 companies of spacemarines would be approx 1/6th of your 2 chapters of astartes.
And? Taros Campaign failed because Marines did nothing, Guard Strategy was fail and Imperial Fleet actually left Tau Navy in control of the other side of the planet while not protecting troop and supply convoys. Not to mention the unforgivable lack of Massive Orbital bombardment of the capital city and actual help of Human renegades.
2 year old child could lead Imperial Forces better on Taros.
So go beat your space marine chest somewhere else, the Taros campaign book was a well written and intelligent treatise on a 40k planetary campaign and both sides were well represented, and fought gallantly, the IoM was just out manuvered and defeated.
Like I said: Imperial Commanders in that book seems to have spend most of their time sitting, eathing popcorn adn watching marathon of Imperial Football.
And you seem to forget Nimbosa where Black Tempalrs and Ultramariens 2'st company slaughter Tau after Tau slaughtered almost all of Nimbosa population + defenders. Revenge Then Zeist where Tau were defeated by Space Marines alone, the Lagan where Ultramarines beat the crap out of them.
Then we have Kronus and Kaurava. 2 worlds forever out of Tau domain.
etc...
In a published and recognized GW approved product.
That books vary so much from author to author that it becomes ridiculous at thee end. On one hand we have unbeatable Tau and on the other that same Tau get owned hard by one Guard Regiment.
And I promised myself I would not get sucked into another one of these pointless threads..oh well.
Kroothawk wrote:Is it again two weeks since the last thread inviting to dream about the genocide of the tau race? Trolling Tau gamers seems to never grow old.
So very sad, I have a tear in my eye
Bla, bla, bla .... how would it look like if every time Imperial Army get slaughtered Imperias fans whine?
1.The Imperial Guard don't pilot Titans.
2. Space Marines have tanks.
3. The Imperial Guard didn't exist during the Heresy. It was the Imperial Army.
Wow, you totally disregarded the point of my post which was to point out that the Horus Heresy wasn't an all-marine outing. But yeah, nitpick all you like.
In a vacuum the Tau would be crushed, no question. As it stands, on the Eastern Fringe the Imperium doesn't have the resources to launch a Sabbot Worlds scale crusade. They're simply too scattered and have bigger threats to face.
Logistically? The Tau haven't got a chance. But, given the IoM's outlook on the Tau...chances are nothing will come of it. However, it is a nifty thing to contemplate.
For the Tau I think their inability to utilize the Warp would hinder their ability to counter-attack or to reinforce any battlefront. Then again, we're only talking about a few systems here, not a galaxy spanning empire that is the Imperium, so distance may not play such a huge factor. The Tau have an unshakable faith in the Greater Good (and some humans), which would only make them harder to beat. Not to mention this is their home-turf, so they have nowhere to retreat to, and we all know how vicious cornered rats are...
As for the IoM? There are so many arguments that make note of the sheer numbers the Imperium can throw at a problem, which is something the Tau can't combat, no matter how cool they are. Tactically? The Imperium can throw fifty Space Marine chapters at the Tau if they really wanted to (Macharian Heresy's anyone?) but for something like the Tau a fraction of that would be all that was needed. If you include the fleet elements of multiple SM chapters, a battlefleet, and other elements, you're looking at a crusade of immense size. The Tau just don't have the numbers to fight that.
It would be pretty cool to fight a campaign that revolves around the conquest of a core Tau system. But I think it'll have to be user generated only because GW won't release anything fluff related that involves crushing their new (popular) race.
And if I'm not mistaken (I probably am) wasn't there a cease fire agreed upon by the Tau and the Imperium?
Tadashi wrote:Not really. The Tau control at most a hundred worlds, and their warp technology is incredibly primitive. They couldn't strike a million worlds.
It's not 'primitive' in terms of technology, but that their race is considered 'blank' to the warp and they simply do not understand what it is, being a race devoid of psykers.
After all, if a ground campaign is too expensive, all the Imperial Navy has to do is to hold the line long enough for several Strike Cruisers to get into position for exterminatus.
That would be improbable. Exterminatus is the tourniquet of the Inquisition for the Imperium of Man. They would not waste it on World's they wouldn't be attacking in the first place.
It's very similar to the ground campaign. The Imperial Navy simply does not have the resources to waste on protecting an Exterminatus Fleet that's trying (and probably failing) at destroying an unblemished Tau World.
There seems to be some mutual respect between the Space Marines and Tau.
Not with Black Templars or the Deathwatch. And if the Imperial Navy can't hold the line, then a Black Templars fleet will just have punch through a Tau fleet, drop off several Cyclonic torpedos, then slingshot around the planet and escape into the warp while the Tau planet behind them blows up. And then to the next Tau world, and the next, all the way to T'au.
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Brother Coa wrote:
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Citing the Taros Campaign:
1 full company of Avenging sons Space marine chapter
2 full companies of the Raptors Space Marine chapter
10 full regiments of Imperial guard (3-4k troops per regiment )
and a scout titan detatchment.
Failed to defeat the Tau ( whom deployed around 100 hunter cadres aprox 8-9k firewarriors, and 5k kroot with 8k human aux ) on one planet, and 3 companies of spacemarines would be approx 1/6th of your 2 chapters of astartes.
And? Taros Campaign failed because Marines did nothing, Guard Strategy was fail and Imperial Fleet actually left Tau Navy in control of the other side of the planet while not protecting troop and supply convoys. Not to mention the unforgivable lack of Massive Orbital bombardment of the capital city and actual help of Human renegades.
2 year old child could lead Imperial Forces better on Taros.
So go beat your space marine chest somewhere else, the Taros campaign book was a well written and intelligent treatise on a 40k planetary campaign and both sides were well represented, and fought gallantly, the IoM was just out manuvered and defeated.
Like I said: Imperial Commanders in that book seems to have spend most of their time sitting, eathing popcorn adn watching marathon of Imperial Football.
And you seem to forget Nimbosa where Black Tempalrs and Ultramariens 2'st company slaughter Tau after Tau slaughtered almost all of Nimbosa population + defenders. Revenge Then Zeist where Tau were defeated by Space Marines alone, the Lagan where Ultramarines beat the crap out of them.
Then we have Kronus and Kaurava. 2 worlds forever out of Tau domain.
etc...
In a published and recognized GW approved product.
That books vary so much from author to author that it becomes ridiculous at thee end. On one hand we have unbeatable Tau and on the other that same Tau get owned hard by one Guard Regiment.
And I promised myself I would not get sucked into another one of these pointless threads..oh well.
What is always kind of a little funny about the Tau Vs threads. People always seem to put them in battle with the fraction that seems to want to kill them the least. Nids orks necrons are all way way more likely to attack the tau then the IoM.
Tadashi wrote:Not all Chapters have only 25 Predators. Some Chapters have more. Don't know which ones, but it says so in Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition.
Which is an interesting fact.
Hammerheads to Predators 1000:1
Mantas to Titans 100:1
Battlesuits to Space Marines 10:1
These are fluff reflected ratios... The Imperial Guard is about the only real contender the Tau have in war, and frankly, they have a poor track record.
Saying the "full might" of an Empire could "steam roll" something is irrelevant, if the "full might" can't be mustered. As for the numbers, it's not exact, but can be assumed because Tau tanks and aren't relics of a long forgotten era, they are mass produced, same as Mantas and Battlesuits.
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nomotog wrote:What is always kind of a little funny about the Tau Vs threads. People always seem to put them in battle with the fraction that seems to want to kill them the least. Nids orks necrons are all way way more likely to attack the tau then the IoM.
A far more serious threat to the Tau are indeed the Nids and Orkz. They can't be swayed to defect or negotiated with, they are simply butchers.
Tadashi wrote:Not all Chapters have only 25 Predators. Some Chapters have more. Don't know which ones, but it says so in Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition.
Which is an interesting fact.
Hammerheads to Predators 1000:1
Mantas to Titans 100:1
Battlesuits to Space Marines 10:1
These are fluff reflected ratios... The Imperial Guard is about the only real contender the Tau have in war, and frankly, they have a poor track record.
Saying the "full might" of an Empire could "steam roll" something is irrelevant, if the "full might" can't be mustered. As for the numbers, it's not exact, but can be assumed because Tau tanks and aren't relics of a long forgotten era, they are mass produced, same as Mantas and Battlesuits.
Tadashi wrote:Not all Chapters have only 25 Predators. Some Chapters have more. Don't know which ones, but it says so in Codex: Space Marines 5th Edition.
Which is an interesting fact.
Hammerheads to Predators 1000:1
Mantas to Titans 100:1
Battlesuits to Space Marines 10:1
These are fluff reflected ratios... The Imperial Guard is about the only real contender the Tau have in war, and frankly, they have a poor track record.
Saying the "full might" of an Empire could "steam roll" something is irrelevant, if the "full might" can't be mustered. As for the numbers, it's not exact, but can be assumed because Tau tanks and aren't relics of a long forgotten era, they are mass produced, same as Mantas and Battlesuits.
Where do you get your numbers?
There are none, the closest thing I could pull to a reference for the ratios, would be a developed western nation's military production capability to a nation with no production capacity.
Space Marines really don't have a lot of armor or troops. They also don't really build more Predators or Land Raiders. While they can make them in some cases, they really don't mass produce them. I can't actually see them waging a war against the Tau in a sustained capacity.
They would simply not have the logistical support needed to wage a continuous campaign without the support of the IG and IN.
Considering they are they are the rapid response force of the IoM, I don't see the Tau in any real danger.
The Imperium is no threat? A Sabbat Worlds-level Crusade into the Tau Empire would involve over a billion Imperial Guardsmen, several Astartes Chapters, and significant Mechanicus forces, including whole Titan Legions.
Tadashi wrote:The Imperium is no threat? A Sabbat Worlds-level Crusade into the Tau Empire would involve over a billion Imperial Guardsmen, several Astartes Chapters, and significant Mechanicus forces, including whole Titan Legions.
That would awesome if the IoM could muster an offensive like that.
Butttttttt, they can't.
The Tau are in an area where 10 Chapters rallying together is an amazing offensive! Where a few Regiments and a Company of Space Marines is a Crusade.
No such efforts will ever be mounted against the Tau... And so they will continue to grow on the Eastern Fringe. The IoM is more worried about the 5 other threats crushing their empire into dust atm.
And if drastic fluff re-writes are any indication, expect to see a massive battle against Chaos incoming in 6th.
Tadashi wrote:The Imperium is no threat? A Sabbat Worlds-level Crusade into the Tau Empire would involve over a billion Imperial Guardsmen, several Astartes Chapters, and significant Mechanicus forces, including whole Titan Legions.
It has more to do with the IoM just not actually wanting to kill the tau. Though I don't think a Sabbat level crusade would be sufficient. Maybe, but it seems to small.
It amazes me to no end when a fluff supported defeat of the Iom is portrayed the imperial fanboys are swift to immediately say it was due to inept guard planning or strategy or merely they find some major problem with the fluff , saying its a uneven reflection of the events, faulting the author.
so when the Iom wins the stars are right and all is well in the cosmos, nothing is upsetting the apple cart.
If xenos beat the Iom, obviously its due to the failure of some minor point , or the author merely decided to wimp out the Iom, so great way to trvialize a enemies win, and console yourself on "well we were robbed."
I am fairly certain the responders saying that during the Taros campaign the Marines did nothing must have been reading a different version to mine, if by nothing they mean they were not slaying tau warriors in each hand and driving all before them in a blaze of ogiastic IoM adolescent fevor, then no they were not doing anything.
They were conducting pinpoint assaults against vital objectives and acting as a elite assault force...yup doing nothing.
as to Zeist and Nimbosa, I could not find hard numbers on combantants just hyperbolic descriptions, the Taros campaign was actually written like a mock military campaign guide, not a marine spank fest.
And as to varying that may be true so these threads again are as pointless as they are.
Hey if you guys hate the Tau so much, go buy abunch of the minis and subject them to melting and burning perhaps some form of sympathetic magic may occur and remove them from your grimdark little universe.
good luck on that, and the Ostrich defense as well.
The Tau Empire will grow, which will be it's undoing. Once it reaches a certain point, the High Lords will give way to the Ordo Xenos and Astartes Chapters calls for a Crusade. When that happens, the Tau will be obliterated.
Well considering they are now at a roughly comparable tech level with the imperium minus warp travel, if the IoM lets them continue to develop at the rate they are progressing through the tech levels, waiting that long may be pointless, when your Highlords of terra do send their fleets, they may just encounter someone who's technology renders any advantage in numbers moot.
Ahhh but such is fanboyisms, I like my Tau and enjoy collecting and building them, but dont fantisize about them wiping out such and such race and marching on to glory...they are in the final estimation, little resin and plastic figures, produced for a game made by now older male brittish blokes who wanted to make a fun backstory and excuse for adults playing with toy soldiers, and I thank them for that.
So make all the Genocidal fantasies you want, its a game and the only thing that kills off anything in it is sales.
Tadashi wrote:The Tau Empire will grow, which will be it's undoing. Once it reaches a certain point, the High Lords will give way to the Ordo Xenos and Astartes Chapters calls for a Crusade. When that happens, the Tau will be obliterated.
If they aren't on their knees bowing to Abbadon and asking for his forgiveness yes.
The Imperium's threats at the moment are more about the losing war against daemons, the shattered Cadian Gate, a heavily contested Armageddon and the ever looming Necron and Tyranid threats. The Tau will most likely stop fighting the IoM once they get larger and start fighting common foes if anything.
No, once it reaches the point of open trade, the Ordo Xenos starts conducting black ops. And once the Tau move in, you'll have Astartes closing in rapidly.
Tadashi wrote:No, once it reaches the point of open trade, the Ordo Xenos starts conducting black ops. And once the Tau move in, you'll have Astartes closing in rapidly.
It's waaay past that man.
Its at the point of the Tau annexing worlds from the IoM. The Zeist Campaign was the line in the sand, where Calgar, though respecting the Tau, had no choice but to send a ton of Chapters to crush them with massive IG support.
All they managed to do was push the Tau back for a time.
Tadashi wrote:No, once it reaches the point of open trade, the Ordo Xenos starts conducting black ops. And once the Tau move in, you'll have Astartes closing in rapidly.
If you were an Inquisitor, the Tau would already have won scores of worlds without firing a shot. Tau openly trade with Rogue Traders and even Imperial Colonies that are seeded around their border (which will undoubtedly swell) and, through the expert beguiling of the Water Caste, exert their influence wholesale, which results in a new World for the Tau to colonize.
Only when the beaurocracy starts looking for tithes of materials and men in places long forgotten or outdated does the Imperium actually notice the Tau. The Taros Campaign was a disaster for the Space Marines and Imperial Guard. The Raptor's Captain shows just how much hubris he has by flat out refusing to help the Imperial General with such things as escort and defensive missions because it was 'beneath them'.
The majority don't even consider the Tau as a threat, allowing us to spread our borders wide into Imperial Territory. Calgar is quite content on letting Tau mosey about, knowing full well that if they do fall, the Tyranids would finish the job and make the Ultramarines go out a 'la Squats: Nom Nom Nom.
Which is somewhat true. Compared to Orks, Chaos, Tyranids and Necrons, the Tau are just small-fry. And with their policy of toleration, sooner or later, some Tzeentchian or Slaaneshi cults are going to pop off daemonic fireworks in a Tau Sept. In the meantime, we'll go handle other, more grimdark, less irritating threats. Am I the only one seeing a connection?
Isnt the imperial navy superior to the tau fleet? And dont the the tau have like 16 worlds? The Sabbot World crusades fought for hundreds, or even thousands of worlds.
However the thing about the tau is, if you have an armed robber in your house, do you really have time to worry about the termites?
And if the Imperium falls to abaddon there goes the whole galaxy. The whole reason the tau have such an easy life is due to the the Imperium is the shield that protects them from the galaxys greater horrors.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Isnt the imperial navy superior to the tau fleet? And dont the the tau have like 16 worlds? The Sabbot World crusades fought for hundreds, or even thousands of worlds.
However the thing about the tau is, if you have an armed robber in your house, do you really have time to worry about the termites?
And if the Imperium falls to abaddon there goes the whole galaxy. The whole reason the tau have such an easy life is due to the the Imperium is the shield that protects them from the galaxys greater horrors.
Plus that 1+ plot armor save helps.
No, the Imperial Navy has superior broadside capability, but in long-range, the Tau have the advantage. And it's Sabbat, not Sabbot.
Well i looked at my copy of bfg. And the best tau ship is no where near as good as the imperial best ship. Infact it seems the tau have no real warships. They are all converted merchant ships.
And the 16 refers to the sept worlds. Not their whole empire, so my bad there.
I frankly dont see why the tau win fire fights. Their weapons are short ranged comparred to the iom. Compare Chimera to devil fish. Shorter ranged weapon, and not as powerful.
Sabbat not sabbot, my bad. Go back to polishing your armor you space marine guy. Lol.
Correct, most Tau ships are converted merchant ships, but still, Tau ships out-range the Imperial Navy and other navies. But at close range, the Tau are very vulnerable, as their broadside weapon batteries don't match up with that of other navies, especially Orks and Space Marines. And once they get boarded or forced to engage in close-combat, well...
Yeah tau ship are glass cannons at best, but mostly inferior death traps. The imperial fleet is clearly better. At least in bfg stats.
So since the Imperium can get space superiority they can pretty much win any planetary battle. Is how it should work.
Of course tau have a plot armor that rivals space marines. And the real defenders of the imperium get flanderized into poorly trained conscripts. It happens.
People, if the full might of the nids attacked the imperium they would nom it. If the full might of the orks attacked as one force everyone would been choppad. If the full might of chaos attacked at the same time the galaxy would be in flames. If the full might of the imperium attacked the adepts of the Ministorium would do mass suicide.
Probably because the REAL warriors are off fighting more dangerous enemies like the Tyranids and the Forces of Chaos, not to mention the Orks. Well, at least the Tau get trouble from Orks and Tyranids too.
So the black crusades arnt the full might of chaos. Maybe they should try harder lol. And orks fight amonst themselves so they can never be at full force. And i agree with you about the adapts.
13 Black Crusades and they still can't leave the Eye? No wonder some fans call Abaddon 'failbaddon'? Wish a war with the Tau would be launched as a tournament. Good chance to show true Imperial power against those upstarts.
Tadashi wrote:Probably because the REAL warriors are off fighting more dangerous enemies like the Tyranids and the Forces of Chaos, not to mention the Orks. Well, at least the Tau get trouble from Orks and Tyranids too.
Tau fight Daemons and Tyranids just as much as the 'real' warriors, but lack that added luxury of hiding in their Fortress Monasteries and Chapter Fleet, screening requests for aid like they were telemarketers.
Don't worry though, when the Emperor dies and your little astropaths get lost in the Warp, we'll see how strong you really are.
Ah, no...when the Emperor dies HE will be a real god...then WE get to see how well your pulse weapons will be against Angels being summoned out of the warp to fight alongside Astartes and the Imperial Guard...
I honestly dont dislike the tau. Well thats a lie, i dislike the looks of them, fish people riding in anime style mechas, not my cup of tea. I dont mind the army in the fluff.
I dont like how they are so insignificant, yet to appeal to the anime fans they make it where they consistantly punch way above their weight. And to make sure that they can keep selling them, any attacking force has to be complete blundering fools so the tau can win.
I don't dislike the Tau too, but they REALLY irritate me. They think "we can get along if we try to understand each other". Please...Mankind tried that in DAOT, and guess what happened next...I know they're supposed to be a nod to anime but, I don't really see it.
Tadashi wrote:Probably because the REAL warriors are off fighting more dangerous enemies like the Tyranids and the Forces of Chaos, not to mention the Orks. Well, at least the Tau get trouble from Orks and Tyranids too.
Tau fight Daemons and Tyranids just as much as the 'real' warriors, but lack that added luxury of hiding in their Fortress Monasteries and Chapter Fleet, screening requests for aid like they were telemarketers.
Actually tau fight the rare enemy that makes past the iom shield. But i agree with you about the marines.
Don't worry though, when the Emperor dies and your little astropaths get lost in the Warp, we'll see how strong you really are.
Hopefully the tau can survive with out the iom shielding them from the big scary things that are out there.
The Tau could use their technology to wage a guerrilla war, but they whould have to take one planet at a time, gaining momentum VERY SLOWLY. At any point, the Imperium could dedicate forces of Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy, and Space Marines to stop the Tau expansion. Figure in the outside threats from other races and it's nearly a stand-still, in my opinion at least.
They can't. And not all Space Marines have Fortress-Monasteries. Most Chapters are fleet-based, they wander the galaxy looking for hot spots. They have recruiting worlds they visit once every generation, but they are few and far in between.
This is pointless because all the imperium fan boys are kids and cant accept rational points of view or they blame the authors. If any of you imperial fan boys actually read any fluff into the imperium youd know for every victory the imperium of man has it looses 2 others. Also any Tau planets that were "conquered" were retaken by the Tau. The empire is shrinking. And one last thing if its the so called commanders fault of that battle then the imperium must really suck to hire such un-intelligent generals (all the time). Aka in any battle the imperium looses .Is a battle you fanboy's have to stick your tampons in)
Malroke wrote:This is pointless because all the imperium fan boys are kids and cant accept rational points of view or they blame the authors. If any of you imperial fan boys actually read any fluff into the imperium youd know for every victory the imperium of man it has it looses 2 others. Also any Tau planets that were "conquered" were retaken by the Tau. The empire is shrinking. And one last thing if its the so called commanders fault of that battle then the imperium must really suck to hire such un-intelligent generals (all the time). Aka in any battle the imperium looses .Is a battle you fanboy's have to stick your tampons in)
Wrong.
Ha! The Imperium is a big place, my boy. The universe is always unleashing some new catastrophe, some marauding race. Hundreds of worlds die, but millions more prosper. It matters not. Nothing can truly hurt us here. - Lord Magister Ithax Stroam, Terra
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Iur_tae_mont wrote:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Hopefully the tau can survive with out the iom shielding them from the big scary things that are out there.
Hey. We killed Slaanesh.
And you can still venerate your Emperor. But the Greater Good comes first.
Yeah...right...without psychic abilities...Oh, and the Greater Good states the all Tau get a bolt round in the head, and all Ethereals stand in front of Imperial Guard firing squads.
Worst-case scenario for the Imperium:
The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Malroke wrote:This is pointless because all the imperium fan boys are kids and cant accept rational points of view or they blame the authors. If any of you imperial fan boys actually read any fluff into the imperium youd know for every victory the imperium of man it has it looses 2 others. Also any Tau planets that were "conquered" were retaken by the Tau. The empire is shrinking. And one last thing if its the so called commanders fault of that battle then the imperium must really suck to hire such un-intelligent generals (all the time). Aka in any battle the imperium looses .Is a battle you fanboy's have to stick your tampons in)
Wrong.
Ha! The Imperium is a big place, my boy. The universe is always unleashing some new catastrophe, some marauding race. Hundreds of worlds die, but millions more prosper. It matters not. Nothing can truly hurt us here. - Lord Magister Ithax Stroam, Terra
Ok no its not wrong and even iff you challenged this you have just quoted some silly imperium person and you hope this will fight your own battle's for you instead of thinking (this is not a fact it is a statement). Please learn to put a point across rationally
I detest 99% of anime, and have been playing this game since its inception, and I am bored to death of all the neo-gregorian grimdarkness of most of the setting and found the Tau a welcome releif from its drudgery, now if thats the kind emo eviroment and you enjoy grimdarkness, cudos to you, but incessent genocidal wishlisting on part of the genre that others enjoy, is both infantile and boring, its like kids talking about who's dad can beat up whoms, or what superhero can kick anothers rear.
I like every faction in the game..but the players of said factions are another matter.
Tau are a EXPANDING empire, the IoM is a static or even retreating empire, its hopes and prayers to a corpse sitting upon the golden throne which may or may not have a sliver of the great man that fought thousands of years before, and who's great empire is full of superstitious witch seeing zealots, that feel in order to turn on a copy machine you have to light candles and burn some sweetmeats.
The Tau actually will negotiate, and have many planets of the wonderfully oppresive IoM join them and actually fight for the freedom to choose where they spend their lives, and when the IoM re-takes the planet (if they can example Taros ) they then exterminate those same humans, sorry kids I will take little blue aliens over that form of human tryanny anyday.
And as to the Tau fleet, the old ones were converted merchant ships, the newest ones are dedicated combat craft, check forgeworld for the actual models.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:
Hopefully the tau can survive with out the iom shielding them from the big scary things that are out there.
Hey. We killed Slaanesh.
Yeah...right...without psychic abilities...
Tau's first contact with Chaos: The forces of chaos kept mentioning Slaanesh, which lead the Tau to believe he(slaanesh) was the commander of the opposing force. When the Tau won, they assumed they killed Slaanesh.
So to the Tau, they killed Slaanesh. It's no more invalid than your quote from Stroam, since it's from their POV.
Did they really kill Slaanesh? No.
Is the Imperium invulnerable? Nope, But some saves are.
The Tau actually will negotiate, and have many planets of the wonderfully oppresive IoM join them and actually fight for the freedom to choose where they spend their lives, and when the IoM re-takes the planet (if they can example Taros ) they then exterminate those same humans, sorry kids I will take little blue aliens over that form of human tryanny anyday.
It's not tyranny, Gue'vesa that join the Tau are traitors to the Imperium.
If I remember correctly, the Tau don't treat their enemies too kindly either, if the Tau ending of Dawn of War: The Dark Crusade is canonical, then the Tau throw their POWs into a Knarloc pit. That doesn't exactly sound like a fair trial.
Tadashi wrote:Probably because the REAL warriors are off fighting more dangerous enemies like the Tyranids and the Forces of Chaos, not to mention the Orks. Well, at least the Tau get trouble from Orks and Tyranids too.
Tau fight Daemons and Tyranids just as much as the 'real' warriors, but lack that added luxury of hiding in their Fortress Monasteries and Chapter Fleet, screening requests for aid like they were telemarketers.
Actually tau fight the rare enemy that makes past the iom shield. But i agree with you about the marines.
Don't worry though, when the Emperor dies and your little astropaths get lost in the Warp, we'll see how strong you really are.
Hopefully the tau can survive with out the iom shielding them from the big scary things that are out there.
Actually, there's a Warp Rift right next to the Bor'Kan Sept World that has been reported as spitting out Daemons. To the North there are Necrone Bone Worlds, where Flayed Ones are scrabbling around waiting for the next Red Harvest. To the East are the Nids. To the West are the Orks, Imperium, and to some extent, Chaos Marines.
So the Imperium isn't exactly shielding anything from the Tau, its just the fact that the Empire is relatively small. Its like throwing a dart at a blue balloon in a sea of red ones. The only exception to this analogy is Daemons, to which it goes in reverse, since Daemons are drawn more to Humanity for their connection to the Warp.
The Tau actually will negotiate, and have many planets of the wonderfully oppresive IoM join them and actually fight for the freedom to choose where they spend their lives, and when the IoM re-takes the planet (if they can example Taros ) they then exterminate those same humans, sorry kids I will take little blue aliens over that form of human tryanny anyday.
iIt's not tyranny, Gue'vesa that join the Tau are traitors to the Imperium.
If I remember correctly, the Tau don't treat their enemies to kindly either, if the Tau ending of Dawn of War: The Dar Crusade is canonical, then the Tau throw their POWs into a Knarloc pit. That doesn't exactly sound like a fair trial.
The Tau have not had any planets defect to the IoM, and the various DOW games although very enjoyable, can be a bit non canon, but oh well, the only Tau rough justice I remeber is the placing the Rebeling humans into camps and their population dwindled.
While its a reach to find Tau Cruelty, the IoM wears it as a badge of honor, or at least the fans do, you are happy when a planet is exterminated because its full of traitors, even if they are merely humans that want a better life, a better life that a alien race offers and its own government denies.
So within the fluff, the Tau offer a option, and one many human worlds would gladly risk being branded traitors for. And another point the Tau actually will come to the aid of its allies and friends....something the IoM can't do..since they have no friends or allies.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Worst-case scenario for the Imperium:
The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Worst-case scenario for the Imperium: The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
If its that easy to do exterminatus why havent they done it to every enemy planet already? Answer because they cant, they do not have enough force's and also the opposite faction would intercept the imperiums and engage in fleet battles also these missiles heading for the planet would be shot down. Also the imperiums fleet has very low technology and does not have the advantage of quality in any shape or form ship's or commanders (yes commanders you dug your hole when you blamed them for loosing every battle you lost). Also iff your moving to fast to be targeted your forces would not be able to target anything either.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Worst-case scenario for the Imperium:
The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
Keep thinking that. When you come to the High Lords of Terra to create another chapter to replace the one you destroyed, don't be surprised when they tell you no.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Worst-case scenario for the Imperium:
The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
Wow..how has the IoM ever got along without your staggering grasp of tactics and logistics, does the lords of Terra know you have this massive intellect stashed away in a simple marines head..
Solve all the galaxies woes with torpedoes, yeah so simple, do that to every planet, all the time, no need for super bad boy astartes, wars can be fought by couch potatoe stick jokeys eating cheetos and pusing buttons.
Get back on your silly shuttle and fly back to IoM fanboy land..they miss you.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And another point the Tau actually will come to the aid of its allies and friends....something the IoM can't do..since they have no friends or allies.
The IoM is known to have occasionally allied itself with the Eldar and negotiated cease fire with the Tau.
Also, from what I understand, according to Matt Ward (you can ignore this part)'s Blood Angels Codex, the Blood Angels teamed up with Necrons... ... ...
Squidmanlolz wrote:Worst-case scenario for the Imperium:
The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
If its that easy to do exterminatus why havent they done it to every enemy planet already? Answer because they cant, they do not have enough force's and also the opposite faction would intercept the imperiums and engage in fleet battles also these missiles heading for the planet would be shot down. Also the imperiums fleet has very low technology and does not have the advantage of quality in any shape or form ship's or commanders (yes commanders you dug your hole when you blamed them for loosing every battle you lost). Also iff your moving to fast to be targeted your forces would not be able to target anything either.
Because the Imperium reserves exterminatus for worlds unconquerable by ground campaign, like the Tau Septs. And you don't need to aim cyclonic torpedos, when they hit the ground they crack the planet's surface open.
well the eldar always use humans for their own gain,and the Tau as we stated will actually negotiate fairly, even a take a bit of hit on their end for peace. Any negotiated alliance or peace is temporary at best with the IoM and soon thier Xenocidal tendecies will erupt again.
But the Tau have actual allies and friends, nassicar, demi-urg, kroot are all allies, not conqured , but friends of the Tau empire, its the kind of race I prefer for a fluff perspective and modeling.
And for any interested My Tau look pretty freaking far from anime-ish check my gallery.
I love discussing and expanding upon the setting but its wearing to constantly go to threads featuring your favorite race/army and have to again defend them.
Heres a new idea how would the IoM benifit from a lasting peace or alliance with the Tau Empire?
Instead of picking on the smallest kid in the 40k empire maybe big bad IoM could fantasize about beating chaos or dealing with the nids. Oh wait they can't, so lets find a fight we can maybe win. Lets pick on the Tau.
The Blood angels allied temporarily with the necrons to fight the tyranids on one planet, enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Worst-case scenario for the Imperium:
The Imperium gives up and uses the Exterminatus to cleanse all of the Tau worlds. (It's like flipping the table in a game of chess)
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
If its that easy to do exterminatus why havent they done it to every enemy planet already? Answer because they cant, they do not have enough force's and also the opposite faction would intercept the imperiums and engage in fleet battles also these missiles heading for the planet would be shot down. Also the imperiums fleet has very low technology and does not have the advantage of quality in any shape or form ship's or commanders (yes commanders you dug your hole when you blamed them for loosing every battle you lost). Also iff your moving to fast to be targeted your forces would not be able to target anything either.
Because the Imperium reserves exterminatus for worlds unconquerable by ground campaign, like the Tau Septs. And you don't need to aim cyclonic torpedos, when they hit the ground they crack the planet's surface open.
It takes many of those missiles not one also you have to be in the planets orbit for a while to bombard it enough for it to be destroyed. All Tau planets have multiple orbital defense installations inhabited by the air caste there is no by passing them or just blowing them up easily. And thats me done i cant have a rational disscussion with you unfortunatly
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And another point the Tau actually will come to the aid of its allies and friends....something the IoM can't do..since they have no friends or allies.
The IoM is known to have occasionally allied itself with the Eldar and negotiated cease fire with the Tau.
Also, from what I understand, according to Matt Ward (you can ignore this part)'s Blood Angels Codex, the Blood Angels teamed up with Tyranids or something...
According to the codex NECRONS, the necrons and Blood Angels teamed up against tyranids. This is supported by necrons aiming to kick the nids out of "their" Galaxy...
So basically except nids, who never ally, orks who have only a few mercenaries ( blood axes IIRC ), DE also mercenaries but still arrogant space elfs, everyone has a few possible allies.
Chaos allies with itself as its usually splintered. May use mercenaries too.
Eldar tend to care for their own plans and may ally with some of the races out there, except necrons and chaos.
Necrons deem the rest below them, but were changed to ally or accept others as vassals now. First example of crons and BA.
Tend to exterminate the unworthy, did this to TAU, go figure...
Opposite to offer to leave as they did to IoM worlds, or to serve as they seek respect and to dominate the Galaxy.
Humans can ally with Eldar, Necrons and Tau ( if the Tau ever understand the concept of a team without signing up for the Greater good ).
The Eldar will opt for temporary alliances and the crons want to be the leaders of it which leads to temporary again.
Tau won't stop from babbling about their greater good and thus annoy the Humans until those offer to shut up or be shot.
Temporary alliance I guess...
Tau can ally with ...Tau. Maybe someday we find a alliance where someone wasn't part of the Empire, but today there is no such thing.
The course GW is taking with them is from a small upstart single world species to a small upstart empire with an ally ( Kroot ).
Then we have the expansion and another 'official' ally ( vespids ). Next step is they are no longer 'flying under the radar' of the common threats of 40k.
So nids showed up, orks came again and chaos made first contact. Necrons opted to end the Party the Tau intended to have, DE favored
cultural exchanges but that wasn't what the Tau expected. We will see them under attack by everyone else.
So Tau won't be left to the sidelines to jump in where they please anymore.
Tadashi wrote:
Said that before. Space marines show up, heading at the planet with a speed that makes targeting impossible, drops off some cyclonic torpedos, pops into the warp, to the next Tau world, all the way to T'au.
Space Marines don't have the resources or technology to do this to 17 planets in a row. In space you can't move at speeds that make targetting impossible, because is space battles you don't target the enemy ship-you target a space a few thousand kilometres in front of it. The faster the enemy is going, the less chance they'll have of changing their course. Not to mention no fleet carries enough exterminatus weaponry to annihilate an entire empire, and Space Marines aren't a threat when they're not working alongside Guard or Navy units.
alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
You can't turn the entire Imperium onto the Tau... something bigger would kill the Imperium... Remember the Imperial Guard are the backbone of the Imperium's might, SM are merely strike-teams
Automatically Appended Next Post: Soo'Vah'Cha, I enjoyed looking at your army, excellent conversions!
Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
Space Marines are one of the smallest factions in 40k. Using the number of SM in the entire galaxy, 1 million, is pointless because in any given war in 40k you'll only have the tiniest fraction of the Imperium's might to call upon for aid. Seriously, saying that you'll have all 1000 chapters participating in one crusade is just silly. Obviously the SM will have Guard support, because it's pretty much impossible for a few thousand men to clear several fortified planets within a century, and the Imperiumn won't simply destroy Tau planets from orbit because planets suitable for human life are so rare.
Theater Available Combat Acessible Assets: Or what is around to utilize on any offensive operation, that will not leave gaps in vital defences or allow other intrests to suffer.
A good example and one I posted earlier is the OB for the Taros campaign.
Citing the Taros Campaign:
1 full company of Avenging sons Space marine chapter
2 full companies of the Raptors Space Marine chapter
10 full regiments of Imperial guard (3-4k troops per regiment )
and a scout titan detatchment.
Failed to defeat the Tau ( whom deployed around 100 hunter cadres aprox 8-9k firewarriors, and 5k kroot with 8k human aux )
So 3 Companies of the emperors Finest and 10 regiments of Guard around 40k imperial troops against a combined 22k of Tau and allies. and the Tau triumphed after a long campaign that was well fought and described in the book (Of course if all you want is see the IoM win you can explain away the victory due to IG incompentence, but oh well )
Personally I love a well described battle regardless of victors and this one was very well written with realistic descriptions of supply problems and elite operations, I heartiliy recomend it.
Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
Have fun with the logistics of getting every marine in the GALAXY to the Tau sept worlds. Even if the IoM decided to do such, it would take too long to implement. Then of course, nids/ Orks/ Chaos/ Necrons decide to attack the IoM and the marines are all redirected to fight them.
Even if they did get them all to the sept worlds, certain other planets would be left horribly exposed. Now tell me DE, Craftworld Eldar, Necrons or any other semi intelligent race wouldn't try to capitalise on such a weakness.
The IoM simply has better uses for all it's marines. Some marines may go, but not every marine in the fething galaxy.
Marines spearheading an invasion with Guard, Titan Legions, SOB, etc however... Tau would go the way of the squats.
Who needs SM, If I remember correctly, the Sabbat worlds crusade against Chaos didn't need Space Marines, I haven't gotten through the entire Gaunt's Ghosts series though. I have to admit, the Tau have an advantage while defending their own planets, they have better tech, they have more diversity. but I feel the empire could match this with manpower and armor.
nomotog wrote:I wonder, how many fire warriors dose it take to kill a SM? I mean the basic fire warrior. The one with the pulse rifle
A LOT: "The Tau Fire Warriors stationed abourd Orbital Primus turned the corridors of the space station into killing grounds with a warren of deadly ambushes, but the Black Templar force countered this by splitting up into small squads and attacked the defenders from multiple directions, using grenades and chainswords to smash their way through the bulkheads. This enabled them to outflank the defending Tau forces, who were pitiful at close combat, and crush the resistance."
Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
Huh. Well, let's take a look at the Taus forces. Roughly 100 planets according to the Tauros Campaign(16 systems not worlds) with say 90% Tau. About a /4 Firecast members. And say, 1'000'000'000 Inhabitants (a seventh of the earth population, compleatly thinkable) of each planet. That ads upp to 22'500'000'000 firecast warriors. And that w/ out allies. Compared to a 1'000'000 space marines. One spacemarine would be about 50 firewarriors so the Tau Empire would be 450 times stronger then all space marines chapters together. The only way for the Imperium to destroy the Tau is the imperial guard. And it would propably not eaven be woth it, scince the orks the tau fight off are much worse then the realatively peacfull Tau.
Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
Huh. Well, let's take a look at the Taus forces. Roughly 100 planets according to the Tauros Campaign(16 systems not worlds) with say 90% Tau. About a /4 Firecast members. And say, 1'000'000'000 Inhabitants (a seventh of the earth population, compleatly thinkable) of each planet. That ads upp to 22'500'000'000 firecast warriors. And that w/ out allies. Compared to a 1'000'000 space marines. One spacemarine would be about 50 firewarriors so the Tau Empire would be 450 times stronger then all space marines chapters together. The only way for the Imperium to destroy the Tau is the imperial guard. And it would propably not eaven be woth it, scince the orks the tau fight off are much worse then the realatively peacfull Tau.
And how many Sisters, Guardsman, Skitarii, Ogryns and Assassins Imperium have?
Every time this thread is done the conclusion is the same. Of course the IoM could beat the Tau if they didn't have a lot of other threats to deal with first.
Kilkrazy wrote:
Every time this thread is done the conclusion is the same. Of course the IoM could beat the Tau if they didn't have a lot of other threats to deal with first.
Or maybe they just won't, maybe they have some other use for Tau in the future...
Anyway, why people ask this question gazillion times in a year?
Ultrasmurf_no_REALY wrote:alrighty then i have just found this thread and i'd like to say that numbers yeah might be a bit iwerd but in the rulebook it say's roughly 1000 s/m chapters made from 1000 battle brothers so yeah s/m have the advantage also 25 to 50 preds and other tanks in each chapter thats max of 50,000ish tanks including support craft and also heard of the world engine ????? one chapter cleansed a whole world of 'crons the tau have 16 worlds thats only 16 chapters that leaves 984 chapters to crush anything thats left and the s/m are ALWAYS backed up by guard thats just how it happens so before the tau players go on about how it's only s/m vs guard please read up on the fluff that has never and will never happen.
Huh. Well, let's take a look at the Taus forces. Roughly 100 planets according to the Tauros Campaign(16 systems not worlds) with say 90% Tau. About a /4 Firecast members. And say, 1'000'000'000 Inhabitants (a seventh of the earth population, compleatly thinkable) of each planet. That ads upp to 22'500'000'000 firecast warriors. And that w/ out allies. Compared to a 1'000'000 space marines. One spacemarine would be about 50 firewarriors so the Tau Empire would be 450 times stronger then all space marines chapters together. The only way for the Imperium to destroy the Tau is the imperial guard. And it would propably not eaven be woth it, scince the orks the tau fight off are much worse then the realatively peacfull Tau.
Your maths is wrong.
Not every planet is populated like that. Only 26 have large populations. So really it's about 26,000,0000,0000 divided by four using the Spet worlds. Around 6,500,000,000 available members of the Fire Caste. That last bit is important, considering not every member of the Caste will be available, far from it. About half will be old or too young/in training. Of that other half, there's a lot of different roles to fill, and whilst the Tau can use technology as a substitute for many of these, there's still a lot of man-power required. Then of course you have to remember that any sort of proportion to do with Astartes will increase exponentially. Maybe a single one can take out many Firewarriors, but a whole Tactical squad, a whole Company potentially, could take out many times more.
Brother Coa wrote:The most probably thing that can happen to Tau would be a GIGANTIC Tyranid fleet noming their entire empire. While Calgar seat in orbit and eat Emperor's popcorn...
Nope, and heres why: Tau dont show up on the tyranid radar like humans do. They are far less psykic and dont overpopulate nearly as badly as the imperial worlds do. Sure a tyranid fleet might feed on them ON THE WAY to a more tasty meal, but its more likely that a splinterfleet or vanguard force would arrive first, and thats manageable from a tau perspektive. On a different note, can tau even become genestealer hybrids? I dont think so...
Brother Coa wrote:The most probably thing that can happen to Tau would be a GIGANTIC Tyranid fleet noming their entire empire. While Calgar seat in orbit and eat Emperor's popcorn...
Nope, and heres why: Tau dont show up on the tyranid radar like humans do. They are far less psykic and dont overpopulate nearly as badly as the imperial worlds do. Sure a tyranid fleet might feed on them ON THE WAY to a more tasty meal, but its more likely that a splinterfleet or vanguard force would arrive first, and thats manageable from a tau perspektive. On a different note, can tau even become genestealer hybrids? I dont think so...
Doesn't matter. The Tyranids aren't drawn to areas of high psychic activity. Leviathan was redirected because an Ork empire was infested with genestealers, which were there due to the high biomass of the area.
And the last point is complete speculation. Why wouldn't they be able to become genestealer hybrids?
They can be geanestealer hybrids. It's not a human only thing. Everyone can be infected. Tau might have an easier time dealing with geanestealers because they lack the massive populations of outsiders that you would find in a under hive. At the same time, they might not have the know how to detect a geanestealer infection.
iproxtaco wrote:
Doesn't matter. The Tyranids aren't drawn to areas of high psychic activity. Leviathan was redirected because an Ork empire was infested with genestealers, which were there due to the high biomass of the area.
And the last point is complete speculation. Why wouldn't they be able to become genestealer hybrids?
not true. genestealers need species that register in the warp to function, otherwise they have a hard time communicating with the parent fleet. It was the immense beacon of the astronomican that dragged them to your galaxy in the first place. Yes their drawn to biomass, but their long range communication needs psykic activity to work... I agree that genestealer virus vs. tau is not exactly covered, but logic would have it that they make poor hosts...
Tau would also be more likely to detect infected members of their society, because Tau are so deeply dedicated to the greater good, they would probably report themselves being infected rather than forming genestealer cults.
Then just simply use the Kryptman Gambit. Deliberately infect a Tau world with genestealers. Without psykers, the Tau can't detect the psychic beacon of the genestealers, drawing several splinter fleets into the Tau Empire. When the Tyranids infest their worlds, the Deathwatch will perform exterminatus, destroying the several splinter fleets, while the Tau are extremely weakened. And no, even if they're dedicated to the Greater Good, they can't go against the Brood Mind and report themselves.
iproxtaco wrote:
Doesn't matter. The Tyranids aren't drawn to areas of high psychic activity. Leviathan was redirected because an Ork empire was infested with genestealers, which were there due to the high biomass of the area.
And the last point is complete speculation. Why wouldn't they be able to become genestealer hybrids?
not true. genestealers need species that register in the warp to function, otherwise they have a hard time communicating with the parent fleet. It was the immense beacon of the astronomican that dragged them to your galaxy in the first place. Yes their drawn to biomass, but their long range communication needs psykic activity to work... I agree that genestealer virus vs. tau is not exactly covered, but logic would have it that they make poor hosts...
Your logic is not based on the information we have. It's the genestealers that make the beacon. The larger the biomass, the more genestealers, the larger the beacon, that's how the system works.
How would Imperial forces deliberatley infect a tau population? It doesn't seem impossible, I'd just like an explanation or a citation of another time when this was used.
Squidmanlolz wrote:How would Imperial forces deliberatley infect a tau population? It doesn't seem impossible, I'd just like an explanation or a citation of another time when this was used.
You just have to release the genestealers on the planet's surface. That's all we have to do.
Squidmanlolz wrote:How would Imperial forces deliberatley infect a tau population? It doesn't seem impossible, I'd just like an explanation or a citation of another time when this was used.
Send them a space hulk infested with genestealers, blowing up any planets that get in the way so as to ensure the space hulks trajectory remains on course for target planet. Hopefully, investigation teams will board the hulk, survivors come back infected, and so on. It is what Inquisitor Kryptmann did to divert a a tyranid hive fleet towards the Ork Empire of Octavius/Octarius.
Squidmanlolz wrote:How would Imperial forces deliberatley infect a tau population? It doesn't seem impossible, I'd just like an explanation or a citation of another time when this was used.
Send them a space hulk infested with genestealers, blowing up any planets that get in the way so as to ensure the space hulks trajectory remains on course for target planet. Hopefully, investigation teams will board the hulk, survivors come back infected, and so on. It is what Inquisitor Kryptmann did to divert a a tyranid hive fleet towards the Ork Empire of Octavius/Octarius.
I find the space marine fan boyism revolting here. And the tau are not that bad. They're a nuisense at best. And we could talk about the Imperium defeating chaos but its kinda hard to fight them in the eye. However the imperiums record is pretty well against chaos. 12-0-1 on the black crusades.
I think that the Tau can take a decent amount of space, but they just don't have enough stride to bring down the Imperium, there are more powerful xenos and they haven't done it.
Well if thats the case then a large tau world getting infected would mean the end of a large part of their empire. They have little to combat such a threat. Unless the ethereals have powers we have yet to witness...
If they do, it'll probably confirm the Mechanicus' and the Ordo Xenos fears that the Tau are more sinister than they appear.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Squidmanlolz wrote: I just realized that this doesn't answer the question, it's really the Tyranids beating the Tau here, not IoM, they would just inhibit it...
That's the point. Since we can't fight the Tau ourselves, we just have to manipulate other races to do the hard work for us, while we only deliver the final blow, like the Eldar. If the Eldar (who may or may not be Mankind's cousins) could do it, why not us?
alright, or...I just got an idea, the Imperium could feign a retreat, start abandoning planets near the Tau, wait for them to spread their forces too thin, trying to take advantage of the planets. Then the Imperiun turns around, and uses its manpower to steamroll the Tau back to T'au.
Squidmanlolz wrote:alright, or...I just got an idea, the Imperium could feign a retreat, start abandoning planets near the Tau, wait for them to spread their forces too thin, trying to take advantage of the planets. Then the Imperiun turns around, and uses its manpower to steamroll the Tau back to T'au.
Wouldn't that just give them a bunch of worlds to bolster there forces before you attack them like you should have done at the start?
Really..cite source, pg and paragraph of this statement.
Since what I find concerning the most recent Tau expansion the Third sphere one is the following paragraph from pg19 Tau codex.
Spoiler:
Buoyed by her initial successes, shadowsun led her armies deeper into the Imperium's space, where she encountered far greater resisitance.
Shadowsun saw that to overextend her forces would lead to a lethal depletion in the momentum of her attack.
Instead of crashing headlong into the Imperiums defences, she split her fleet and scattered it on more than a dozen headings. Each made a series of devastating hit-and -run attacks against targets that received no warning, and against which the Imperium could mount no effective counter.
At length, the imperium settled into a static defence of a handful of key worlds. Shadowsun exploited this straetegy by marshalling her forces once more launching an all-out attack against a single cluster of imperial worlds, overrunning each and claiming them for all time for the glory of the Tau Empire.
These worlds are now flourishing septs, and have been so heavily fortified that only a full-scale assualt is likely to restore them to Imperial control.
Now I am not sure where all your Tau hate comes from, maybe you got your butt handed to you one to many times in table top games against Tau players, or you are just are one of those sad people that just enjoys hating things different from what they like, but what ever, try to base your arguments with actual or at least GW printed facts, and don't extrapolate them just to make your delusional ideas seem less delusional.
Tau forces couldn't bolster their defences in time, that's the essence of a feigned retreat. The enemy gives chase, then the retreaters turn around, before the enemy knows it, they've spread their forces too thin among too many worlds to defend at once. Given the Tau's use of hit and run warfare, this tactic fights fire with fire.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Tau forces couldn't bolster their defences in time, that's the essence of a feigned retreat. The enemy gives chase, then the retreaters turn around, before the enemy knows it, they've spread their forces too thin among too many worlds to defend at once. Given the Tau's use of hit and run warfare, this tactic fights fire with fire.
Is this a suggestion or trying to justify the imperial abandonment of border planets cause I am a bit confused.
The first step in avoiding a trap is identifing that one is there, and in the above cited paragraph, Shadowsun disbursed her forces to make the Imperium either concentrate of disperse to combat them, then she massed them for a concentrated push.
So in theory your idea is sound, but all theories are sound in a vacuum, the Tau do not only use hit-and -run tactics, just in this cited case it was implemented, they are not a slave to any one stratagem, thats what makes their military effective, or any military for that matter.
And even a feigned retreat can turn into a real retreat without incredibly careful planning and discipline, its why in real world tactics its a seldom to never used gambit.
Except in movies of course..where it always seems like the height of brilliance.
I will admit it is an "all-or-nothing" strategy, the risk involved isn't as tremendous as you make it seem though. This tactic was used heavily by the Romans and Macedonians during their expansions, given combat then was mostly hand to hand, it's easily adapted to compensate for the Tau's impressive firepower.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Tau forces couldn't bolster their defences in time, that's the essence of a feigned retreat. The enemy gives chase, then the retreaters turn around, before the enemy knows it, they've spread their forces too thin among too many worlds to defend at once. Given the Tau's use of hit and run warfare, this tactic fights fire with fire.
Isn't that the tactic you use when your out numbered? When you want to brake up a larger army into manageable chunks. The IoM outnumber the tau, it's much sounder to just attack them.
The Tactic I assume you are reffering to is the Cannae one, and was used by Hannibal, and is a feigned retreat of the middle to entice the enemy to pursue, I am well aware of the tactic, and yes it is a very risky gambit, since it gives the impetus of attack to your enemy, which is always a bad place to be, reaction is not a good way to win battles.
At any rate that is a example used on a battlefield where movement and terrain are a constant, and your enemies actions are apparent to observe.
Taken into a 40k enviroment of a galactic battlefield this breaks down in many ways, warp tavel is a hardly reliable constant, ships can take differing amounts of time to transit it or may not even arrive at all, communication is vital and the intel on the enemies actions would be critical to decide the time for the retreating forces to turn and attack, alot of this idea is also hinged on the enemies stupidity and predictability for this to work.
In my opinion in the environs mentioned it would be a high risk manuver that would likely bite the user in the ass, unless they were very fortunate and their enemy fairly clueless.
One additional point is Tau never get bogged down in fighting over land, if the battle seems unwinable, they will withdraw, so trying to get them to spreadout onto multiple planets and then pin them on these planets with a counter attck will likel lead to a mobile battle yet again, but this is all just arm chair generaling, if they ever make a grand strategic game version of 40k I will be glad to play against any here.
In all seriousness, I'm pretty much forced to agree with you, I honestly believe that this is a standstill nontheless, I've been defending the Imperium because I have more experience with them and am only just begining a Tau army.
Squidmanlolz wrote:Luck is my life-blood, roll the dice.
In all seriousness, I'm pretty much forced to agree with you, I honestly believe that this is a standstill nontheless, I've been defending the Imperium because I have more experience with them and am only just begining a Tau army.
Spoken like a gentleman ( hands him some port and a cigar )
In my experiance and opinion, the IoM uses predomiantly WW2 era tactics, the big push and all, and not the more fluid battlefield tactics of our own modern military, the Tau do, its one of the reasons I finally decided to make the plunge and start a Tau force.
I actually am in the U.S. Army and have had more than a few deployments, so to keep my demi-OCD military leanings from killing me I had to pick a force that did not offend them.
I grew up playing , Marines, IG, Orks, and even a breif ..very breif stint of Eldar, and still play all those (minus the Eldar ),I just like the intelligent warfighting style of the Tau, and hate CC...its boring for me.
But 2 things never to rely on, luck and the stupidity of your enemy, anytime you do, one or the other will fail you.
A far more enjoyable discussion with you than the rabid space marine fan boys, well done ole chap.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I find the space marine fan boyism revolting here. And the tau are not that bad. They're a nuisense at best. And we could talk about the Imperium defeating chaos but its kinda hard to fight them in the eye. However the imperiums record is pretty well against chaos. 12-0-1 on the black crusades.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I find the space marine fan boyism revolting here. And the tau are not that bad. They're a nuisense at best. And we could talk about the Imperium defeating chaos but its kinda hard to fight them in the eye. However the imperiums record is pretty well against chaos. 12-0-1 on the black crusades.
Which one was the loss
13th Black Crusade. But that wasn't really a loss for the Imperium. Everybody sorta lost in somewhat equal measures.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I find the space marine fan boyism revolting here. And the tau are not that bad. They're a nuisense at best. And we could talk about the Imperium defeating chaos but its kinda hard to fight them in the eye. However the imperiums record is pretty well against chaos. 12-0-1 on the black crusades.
Which one was the loss
13th Black Crusade. But that wasn't really a loss for the Imperium. Everybody sorta lost in somewhat equal measures.
Not Tau. No one wanted to play with us. They all wanted to fight for Cadia. No Opposition is winning in my book
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:I find the space marine fan boyism revolting here. And the tau are not that bad. They're a nuisense at best. And we could talk about the Imperium defeating chaos but its kinda hard to fight them in the eye. However the imperiums record is pretty well against chaos. 12-0-1 on the black crusades.
Which one was the loss
13th Black Crusade. But that wasn't really a loss for the Imperium. Everybody sorta lost in somewhat equal measures.
I think that is why I was confused. I don't really count it as a loss. I think it would be 12-1-0 instead of 12-0-1.
I guess compared to the way the imperium stopped the other 12 black crusades, the 13th is kinda a win for chaos for them, they do have a foothold on Cadia now, so who knows maybe the next edition will have them exploit that somehow, since it has been rumored that Chaos will play a kajor role in the next Ed's fluff and setting.
Sounds like bad times for all non tentcley things......
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Now I am not sure where all your Tau hate comes from, maybe you got your butt handed to you one to many times in table top games against Tau players, or you are just are one of those sad people that just enjoys hating things different from what they like, but what ever, try to base your arguments with actual or at least GW printed facts, and don't extrapolate them just to make your delusional ideas seem less delusional.
Several things:
-Tau are hated because of Tau players, implementing the awesomeness and technological superiority of Tau to everybody else in their face. I am on this forum for quite some time, all I have learned from Tau players is that Fire Warriors outnumber Imperial Guardsman ( and they stated all of them in the entire Imperium ), that Tau navy outnumber Imperium Navy in general, that Tau can enter Eye of Terror and kill Chaos Gods and lot of other nonsense I read here... and when people try to tell them it's different than that, Tau fans say that we are hating their faction and making up Tau genocide threads. Go figure...
-And no matter if Tau had some success like Taros or the thing that you mentioned in the spoilers, they are beaten back more then they are conquering. And the fact is that Tau usually attack poorly defended Imperial Worlds ( Nimbosa was defended only by 1 Guard Regiment, they had to face entire Tau invasion force ), they never attacked world that was defended by larger Imperial force then 2 - 3 Guard Regiments. And poorly equipped and undermanned if I might add.
-And what Tau fanboys will never understand is that Tau will NEVER be a major threat to anyone. No matter how advanced their tech is. Simply because their FTL drive, witch is so primitive that makes even the Orks laugh. Tau will soon be unable to expand any further simply because they can't defend that much territory with so slow means of transportation. They already need some time from one end of their empire to another. Claiming more planets only means that reinforsments will need a longer time to get there to help them, that makes them vulnerable to hit and run attacks and raids.
Tau will never had better means of transportation. Etherials banned any research considering Warp technology simply because it's to dangerous. They can trade with Necrons but their tech is also primitive when it comes to FTL speeds. And the Wabway is to dangerous to travel in, only the Eldar know how to use it without losing anyone or anything.
Just like Necrontyrs and the Old Ones, the Old Ones beat them even if Necrontyr had better tech - simply because they needed years to travel to the nearest stars.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
Now I am not sure where all your Tau hate comes from, maybe you got your butt handed to you one to many times in table top games against Tau players, or you are just are one of those sad people that just enjoys hating things different from what they like, but what ever, try to base your arguments with actual or at least GW printed facts, and don't extrapolate them just to make your delusional ideas seem less delusional.
Several things:
-Tau are hated because of Tau players, implementing the awesomeness and technological superiority of Tau to everybody else in their face. I am on this forum for quite some time, all I have learned from Tau players is that Fire Warriors outnumber Imperial Guardsman ( and they stated all of them in the entire Imperium ), that Tau navy outnumber Imperium Navy in general, that Tau can enter Eye of Terror and kill Chaos Gods and lot of other nonsense I read here... and when people try to tell them it's different than that, Tau fans say that we are hating their faction and making up Tau genocide threads. Go figure...
-And no matter if Tau had some success like Taros or the thing that you mentioned in the spoilers, they are beaten back more then they are conquering. And the fact is that Tau usually attack poorly defended Imperial Worlds ( Nimbosa was defended only by 1 Guard Regiment, they had to face entire Tau invasion force ), they never attacked world that was defended by larger Imperial force then 2 - 3 Guard Regiments. And poorly equipped and undermanned if I might add.
-And what Tau fanboys will never understand is that Tau will NEVER be a major threat to anyone. No matter how advanced their tech is. Simply because their FTL drive, witch is so primitive that makes even the Orks laugh. Tau will soon be unable to expand any further simply because they can't defend that much territory with so slow means of transportation. They already need some time from one end of their empire to another. Claiming more planets only means that reinforsments will need a longer time to get there to help them, that makes them vulnerable to hit and run attacks and raids.
Tau will never had better means of transportation. Etherials banned any research considering Warp technology simply because it's to dangerous. They can trade with Necrons but their tech is also primitive when it comes to FTL speeds. And the Wabway is to dangerous to travel in, only the Eldar know how to use it without losing anyone or anything.
Just like Necrontyrs and the Old Ones, the Old Ones beat them even if Necrontyr had better tech - simply because they needed years to travel to the nearest stars.
And this from the ultimate Marine fanboy,
Since Imperial Fans never make crazy claims or out of this world statements...no no its only Tau players that do that.
I dont discuss these things to prove any points or make myself feel superior or secure in my fictitious world of 40k, I discuss it because I enjoy the setting, I don't care if the Tau are a "Threat" to anyone in this fluff, But I am a threat if you ever play me on the tabletop, where fluff can't save you.
The Taros campaign was the IoM attacking the Tau, but avoid any facts that suit you as is your style.
And as to your points of FTL drive, well yes they are slower, but dont disappear in the warp or arrive decades and centuries later than expected, (and they are improving on their drives as stated in BFG excepts about the Kor'Or'Vesh) but again thats a fact of other species warp systems, that is often overlooked. oh well.
And for all the nevers you like to say..well nevers usually dont last, we will see what the next codex brings, but regardless of your time on this forum your bais is always apparent, your a Marine/IoM fanboy and cannot see any failings in it, good for you, I like the Tau but admit to many failings they may have...its part of why I like them. If I am a fanboy..well my age makes me more of a Fanman, been a good 31 years since Boy would be a likely term, then I am also a Ork, IG and marine fan as well, just not a rabid one such as you.
Mainly it seems that the Pro IoM are the most vocal of trying to tell such and such ( i.e. Tau ) that they are not a threat and never will be..seems like alot of big talk to me, trying to convice themselves of something hmmmm.
Anyway cherry pick away, and hate all you want , until Tau become a bad selling product in the GW line, they are here.
P.S. Brother Coa your location should be spelled Holy Terra....not Holly Terra just a FYI.
People, lets stop arguing if the Imperium can defeat the Tau. Its ridiculuos and almost noone is using clear GW facts. This is just "MAI ARMEH IZ BETTA TEHN YOURZ!"
No argument from me..a argument would entail I was actually angry or cared about the out come, but I do love a good discussion, and sometimes you learn something from one.
GW never really prints any 100% facts on anything, so to wait for that as a basis for a discussion..... well we will be a very quiet board.
These type of threads always..devolve into chest thumping, nature of the beast.
But Space Crusader I appreciate your attempt to put things in perspective, but there is not alot of that going around usually.
Discussion good...arguing bad.
And again Space crusader I do not mean any of this as sarcasm directed at you, the Internet is a difficult means of conversation sometimes.
I acctuly don't care if the Tau are considered cowardly for attacking the enemy when they are at their weakest. Do you expect them to be like "sir, the enemys forces are more powerfull now then ever!" "aha! The perfect opurtunity to attack them so we can show our manly manlyness". And as I stated earlier the Tau are not so easy to defeat. OFC the imperium could propably do it with mayby 0,02 percent of their forces but untold billions/5000 is still realy much.
Cowardly tactics is what one side calls anothers means of geting a advantage upon them, someone uses a novel strategy that catches the other off guard...the its "you cowards, how dare you attack me where I am weak!"
I am sure any surviving Trojans thought the horse was a pretty cowardly thing to do....but it worked.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:
And this from the ultimate HUMAN fanboy,
Since Imperial Fans never make crazy claims or out of this world statements...no no its only Tau players that do that.
Fixed that for you, and I never laid claims that Imperium can bet everyone because I am realistic. Unlike Tau players.
I dont discuss these things to prove any points or make myself feel superior or secure in my fictitious world of 40k, I discuss it because I enjoy the setting, I don't care if the Tau are a "Threat" to anyone in this fluff, But I am a threat if you ever play me on the tabletop, where fluff can't save you.
I don't fell superiour nor do I need to prove it - because that is true. On one Tau world come 10.000 Humans worlds. TT and fluff is not the same, aldo I see your point. I still have to play my first table game, but I can beat you hard in Dawn of War since I am playing it every day from 2004.
The Taros campaign was the IoM attacking the Tau, but avoid any facts that suit you as is your style.
Who attacked first? I could sworn that Tau annexed the planet and then Imperium attacked to reclaim it. This I see as Tau agreesion so they attacked first.
And as to your points of FTL drive, well yes they are slower, but dont disappear in the warp or arrive decades and centuries later than expected, (and they are improving on their drives as stated in BFG excepts about the Kor'Or'Vesh) but again thats a fact of other species warp systems, that is often overlooked. oh well.
Warp have his flaws but it is still reliable most of the time ( Armageddon War, 13'th Black Crusade, Battle for Macragge etc... ). My point is that Tau will never achieve great light speeds, no matter how much they upgraded their drives. Humans from Golden Age of Technology couldn't do that in thousands of years and you think Tau will do that in several decades? They ( Humans from the GAoH )already stated it is impossible to have grater speeds than that of the current Tau ones, exept Warp and the Webway.
And for all the nevers you like to say..well nevers usually dont last, we will see what the next codex brings, but regardless of your time on this forum your bais is always apparent, your a Marine/IoM fanboy and cannot see any failings in it, good for you, I like the Tau but admit to many failings they may have...its part of why I like them. If I am a fanboy..well my age makes me more of a Fanman, been a good 31 years since Boy would be a likely term, then I am also a Ork, IG and marine fan as well, just not a rabid one such as you.
Mainly it seems that the Pro IoM are the most vocal of trying to tell such and such ( i.e. Tau ) that they are not a threat and never will be..seems like alot of big talk to me, trying to convice themselves of something hmmmm.
And waht kind of threat are Tau? They need centuries to get to the Macragge ( they already need week to get from the one end of their empire to another if I am not mistaken ), they are threat to the local planet but not to the Imperium as whole. And they never will be. I am not convincing myself, I am just seeing reality here.
Anyway cherry pick away, and hate all you want , until Tau become a bad selling product in the GW line, they are here.
Here only 1 guy collect them in the entire country. And most selling miniatures on the planet are still Astartes. And there is no indication that they will ever be replaced by some other faction. Adn I don't want to see Tau out of the 40k setting, they are cool. I just want to see people stop claiming that Tau are grater then they already are.
P.S. Brother Coa your location should be spelled Holy Terra....not Holly Terra just a FYI.
For me, the most holly and sacred place in this universe or any other is our beloved planet Earth. She is indded holy site, giving life and offering shelter and home to us Humans and all other lifeforms. Because of that Holly Terra deserves 2 L in it's name, and a lot more than that.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Cowardly tactics is what one side calls anothers means of geting a advantage upon them, someone uses a novel strategy that catches the other off guard...the its "you cowards, how dare you attack me where I am weak!"
I am sure any surviving Trojans thought the horse was a pretty cowardly thing to do....but it worked.
Winning is winning.
I didn't call Tau cowards, I just presented the fact that they never faced large Imperial forces.
Win is win, I agree. But because Tau hav win at Taros against poorly led Imperials or Nimbosa by destroying 1 Imperial Guard Regiment doesen't mean that they can kill Chaos Gods and have a tea party after this.
At Zeist they have been owned by several Space Marine Chapters, and not on full strength at all.
They were almost defeated by Tyranid Hive Fleet that made itself invulnerable to the plasma fire. It was only defeated after Imperial Guard helped the Tau.
At Nimbosa, after they took and fortify the worlds they were massacred by Black Templars and Ultramarines, and that are just 2 Marine Chapters. With Ultramrines bringing only their 1'st company into combat.
Let's be reasonable, Tau as much strong as they are would be extinct if they were every attacked by Ork WARGHHH size of one that attacked Armageddon. Or Tyranid Hive Fleet Leviathan.
Sorry.. a IoM fanboy then cause they barely even treat their own people in a Humane way.
For the rest, you just reinforced my points, but hey maybe its a language gap or something..oh well
And HOLLY is not the Proper english spelling of HOLY...Holly is a form of plant, or a form of christmas you can have. ( it just makes you look kinda ignorant..sorry )
Dawn of war..played that along time ago, then DOW 2, did not much like them, twitch fests, but to each their own.
And Taros, the planet traded with the Tau, and the IoM sent marines to kill the governor, and the Tau protected him, but call it what you will, I encourge you to actually read it, its quite good.
DID I EVER SAY THEY WERE A THREAT...sorry but I have never made any allegations to that, you were the one saying they were not, I just stated I did not care, basically. ( Again likely a language thing )
Any rate learn to play the tabletop, and who knows one day you may actually get to play me, not likely but weirder things have happend.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Sorry.. a IoM fanboy then cause they barely even treat their own people in a Humane way.
For the rest, you just reinforced my points, but hey maybe its a language gap or something..oh well
And HOLLY is not the Proper english spelling of HOLY...Holly is a form of plant, or a form of christmas you can have. ( it just makes you look kinda ignorant..sorry )
Dawn of war..played that along time ago, then DOW 2, did not much like them, twitch fests, but to each their own.
And Taros, the planet traded with the Tau, and the IoM sent marines to kill the governor, and the Tau protected him, but call it what you will, I encourge you to actually read it, its quite good.
DID I EVER SAY THEY WERE A THREAT...sorry but I have never made any allegations to that, you were the one saying they were not, I just stated I did not care, basically. ( Again likely a language thing )
Any rate learn to play the tabletop, and who knows one day you may actually get to play me, not likely but weirder things have happend.
Sorry Soo'Vah'Cha (Im assuming that's a Tau name that translates into something cool), but give it up. Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions. Your rational and well-argued points are either ignored, cherry-picked, or just replied with pro-Imperial propaganda slogans that bear no relevance to the point at hand. I applaud your efforts, and it's awesome to see someone defend the Tau (in a not so irrational fanboy way), but c'mon. Let's let this thread die, because no worthwhile or meaningful discussion is coming from it. It's only providing opportunities for fanboy hyperbole (whether its IoM or Tau Empire) to run amok.
Yeah I know, but the military training in me has a hard time dealing with such blatant idiocy.
Hmmmm, Well I can't really have a war of wits with him then, since ROE and the Geneva Convention don't allow me to open fire on the unarmed.
p.s. Yeah Soo'Vah'Cha is Tau for Artful shot, a name I planned on using for a human protagonist in a 40k novel I worked on during my last deployment, gets real boring up on those OPs.
Ronin wrote: Sorry Soo'Vah'Cha (Im assuming that's a Tau name that translates into something cool), but give it up.
His name is cool, I want one liek that
Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions.
I thank you and respectfully taking the title. I am pround to be a Human fan to the bone.
Your rational and well-argued points are either ignored, cherry-picked, or just replied with pro-Imperial propaganda slogans that bear no relevance to the point at hand.
Like Tau fans have given good arguments to us like: "We have Railgunz that can shoot stars.....", please - you are not more ignoring cherry picking replied sloganeers with no bear to the relevance with the point at hand then we are.
I applaud your efforts, and it's awesome to see someone defend the Tau (in a not so irrational fanboy way), but c'mon. Let's let this thread die, because no worthwhile or meaningful discussion is coming from it. It's only providing opportunities for fanboy hyperbole (whether its IoM or Tau Empire) to run amok.
I like Soo'Vah'Cha claims to, they are reasonable to start with. And it's nice to see Tau player defending Tau with reason and reality and not fanboyism.
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Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: And HOLLY is not the Proper english spelling of HOLY...Holly is a form of plant, or a form of christmas you can have. ( it just makes you look kinda ignorant..sorry )
Didn't know holly is a plant, I corrected that and thank you for that.
And Taros, the planet traded with the Tau, and the IoM sent marines to kill the governor, and the Tau protected him, but call it what you will, I encourge you to actually read it, its quite good.
The smugglers told on the planetary governor, after being caught by the Imperial navy, but yes trade is a way the Tau exert their influance, its how almost every nation/race that trades exerts thier influance, the Iom unfortunatly doe not trade, and fears all outside influances, people always want what is forbbiden to them.
But the War for Taros is a excellent read, not nearly the fan spank that the paragraph on Nimbosa and the Codex blurb about Zeist, but hey its 40k, what one codex gives the next will take away.
I retract my more unpleasant things I said, and register you in the Tau Index as when captured you will be well treated, and fed at least 3 times per day, and alotted a warm rock to sun on.
and kid..if you think I was provoked then, you are delusional, trust me on that.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:The smugglers told on the planetary governor, after being caught by the Imperial navy, but yes trade is a way the Tau exert their influance, its how almost every nation/race that trades exerts thier influance, the Iom unfortunatly doe not trade, and fears all outside influances, people always want what is forbbiden to them.
But the War for Taros is a excellent read, not nearly the fan spank that the paragraph on Nimbosa and the Codex blurb about Zeist, but hey its 40k, what one codex gives the next will take away.
I retract my more unpleasant things I said, and register you in the Tau Index as when captured you will be well treated, and fed at least 3 times per day, and alotted a warm rock to sun on.
and kid..if you think I was provoked then, you are delusional, trust me on that.
It's en excellent read indeed, I am just awkward on Imperial leaders. And it's nice that Tau have at least one victory over the Imperium in some big even fight.
Just don't exaggerated things. Tau can't beat the Imperium even if they wanted to. Adn Imperium have more then enough to turn Tau into dust. But for now they are not registered on Terra's radar so they are safe, until GW decide to move timeline and turn this galaxy into warzone between Orks, Chaos, Imperium, Tyranids and Necrons.
And no hard feeling here to, I to get overexcited sometime.
And I didn't provoke you - I don't need to. When someone from US is insulting me I just remember that we shot down F-117 Nightwing with Soviet technology from late 60' and early 70', and great smile come across my face. Like this
So killing another countries personell that your country is not at war with, with some old weapon systems makes you..happy.......hmmm I retract my retraction.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:So killing another countries personell that your country is not at war with, with some old weapon systems makes you..happy.......hmmm I retract my retraction.
Are you high?
It was in war, 1999 bombing of FRY. We take down you most advanced craft at that time ( beside B-2 and F-22 Raptor that was still in development ) with rocket system that was almost 35-40 years old. That is FAIL in my book.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:So killing another countries personell that your country is not at war with, with some old weapon systems makes you..happy.......hmmm I retract my retraction.
Are you high?
It was in war, 1999 bombing of FRY. We take down you most advanced craft at that time ( beside B-2 and F-22 Raptor that was still in development ) with rocket system that was almost 35-40 years old. That is FAIL in my book.
Dude, I'd leave politics out of this debate(argument) if I were you. Besides being no way related to the subject of this thread it's likely to get you a warning.
Never mind my mistake I thought your flag was a russian one, not Republic of Serbia, sorry. So ya you shot down a advanced fighter with a old soviet weapon, and if you put 1000 monkeys in a room with typewriters eventually one will write shakespeare play.
oh well, and again sorry for mistaking you for a Russian.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Sorry.. a IoM fanboy then cause they barely even treat their own people in a Humane way.
For the rest, you just reinforced my points, but hey maybe its a language gap or something..oh well
And HOLLY is not the Proper english spelling of HOLY...Holly is a form of plant, or a form of christmas you can have. ( it just makes you look kinda ignorant..sorry )
Dawn of war..played that along time ago, then DOW 2, did not much like them, twitch fests, but to each their own.
And Taros, the planet traded with the Tau, and the IoM sent marines to kill the governor, and the Tau protected him, but call it what you will, I encourge you to actually read it, its quite good.
DID I EVER SAY THEY WERE A THREAT...sorry but I have never made any allegations to that, you were the one saying they were not, I just stated I did not care, basically. ( Again likely a language thing )
Any rate learn to play the tabletop, and who knows one day you may actually get to play me, not likely but weirder things have happend.
Sorry Soo'Vah'Cha (Im assuming that's a Tau name that translates into something cool), but give it up. Brother Coa (and the OP Tadashi) is like, the biggest IoM fanboy I can think of here. It's like he IS from the Imperium, sent back in time and across dimensions. Your rational and well-argued points are either ignored, cherry-picked, or just replied with pro-Imperial propaganda slogans that bear no relevance to the point at hand. I applaud your efforts, and it's awesome to see someone defend the Tau (in a not so irrational fanboy way), but c'mon. Let's let this thread die, because no worthwhile or meaningful discussion is coming from it. It's only providing opportunities for fanboy hyperbole (whether its IoM or Tau Empire) to run amok.
Never denied being an Imperium fan. Quite proud of it...the Imperium is a symbol of Human nature...proud, xenophobic, with no empathy at all for those it refuses to accept, and willing to go to any ends necessary to achieve victory.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:dear God ..it gets worse, yes I am also asking to shut this idiocy down, I love a good discussion but this has become neither.
Yes, why must every good tau genocide fantasy thread degenerate into a hate feast Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.
Good god this thread is fethed. And i put the black crusades in a win-loss-draw format.
Hey so vaa chaa you say you plays tau due to they are most like the us military. May i ask how? And yeah ig are strongly based on ww2 tactics, but you can run a combined arms style on the tabletop.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Good god this thread is fethed. And i put the black crusades in a win-loss-draw format.
Hey so vaa chaa you say you plays tau due to they are most like the us military. May i ask how? And yeah ig are strongly based on ww2 tactics, but you can run a combined arms style on the tabletop.
sigh..I did not say they were anything like the U.S. military, I said I am in the U.S. Army and the Tau are the least offensive to my modern/real world leanings, But they do use fire and manuver, laser directed weapons systems, and a more agile fighting style, that is reminiscent of Modern tactics.
And yes I have played IG...many times, and am working on a Elysian force now, but still they are a much more ww2 flavored army.( and they did have combined arm in that war as well.)
I only answered in this thread since a question was directly asked, pretty much done here.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Good god this thread is fethed. And i put the black crusades in a win-loss-draw format.
Hey so vaa chaa you say you plays tau due to they are most like the us military. May i ask how? And yeah ig are strongly based on ww2 tactics, but you can run a combined arms style on the tabletop.
Id like to see 20-30 Predators/Land raiders/Leman Russes against just 5 or 10 Hammerheads. It'd be like Desert Storm all over again.
"The 12 M1A1 tanks of Eagle Troop destroyed 28 Iraqi tanks, 16 personnel carriers. and 30 trucks in 23 minutes with no American losses."
Superior technology>superior numbers
Ground battles will be dictated by the quicker force, which is the Tau. Hammerheads aren't hampered by terrain, have 50% more range then the IOM standards, and hit harder. Let's just do some assuming and say that a Hammerhead has a rate of fire of 1/5 seconds. So at a miss rate of 33%, and a destruction/immob rate of say, 50%, you've got a single Hammerhead accounted for a single IOM vehicle every 15 seconds. Considering the Hammerhead can remain out of range of the Predators guns forever, is fairly resistant to the Leman Rus, is twice as fast as both, and can go where it wants, you can bet the Tau would be moving with impunity, especially if the terrain isnt friendly to tracked vehicles.
10 Hammerheads=40 dead/worthless predators in about a minute.
Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.
And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.
Vanquishers are irrelevant. There's only 1 or 2 forge worlds still producing them, and neither are any where near the Tau Empire.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.
And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.
The IG out range the tau? where do you get that from?
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Well yeah, but predators suck any way. Have you heard of the leman russ vanquisher. Same range as a hammerhead. More penatrating power. Plus there is a tank destroyer mentioned in gaunts ghosts. The tau have superior tech, true. But the ig has the superior armor, and numbers. Plus the ig out ranges the tau.
And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.
The Vanquiser is now only built on a singe Forgeworld. The Tankdestroyer is a very rare vehicle since it's complicated maingun can only be produced on a small number of forgeworlds. Your soviet/ us army comparision is plain wrong. Both the soviet union and the us army ( which in adition followed a completely different, although wrong, tank doctrine ) had comparable, in some cases even superior, technology to the Wehrmacht. Yes, even the much maligned Sherman was comparable to the most used german armoured vehicle ( including Jagdpanzer/ Sturmgeschütz variants ) designs.
The NVA was, for quite obvious reasons, supplied with some of the best equipment that the warsaw pact had to offer. Since (thankfully) both german armies never had to fight each other we will never know who would have won.
Both the Leman Russ and the Hammerhead have an effective range of 72inches on the tabletop. The Hammerhead is the superior tank. From a modern perspective both designs are, at best, suboptimal.
From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
Most IG weapons cut out at 24 inches. Unless things have changed.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
Game mechanics =/= fluff.
The fluff is based off the game machanics. So you can use the gm as a rough guide to the fluff.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
Game mechanics =/= fluff.
Game mechanics and fluff do share a close relationship. Fluff is influenced by game mechanics. (Do you think the IG would be thought of as a meat grinder with out there table top presence as a hoard army) Mechanics also follow the fluff. You don't have one army that totally different style in the fluff that they are in the rules. (Tau are range in fluff and rules.)
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
Game mechanics =/= fluff.
The fluff is based off the game machanics. So you can use the gm as a rough guide to the fluff.
The lasgun, and most handheld weapons are still 24 or less but most heavy weapons and vechile weapons are at least 36inch or better. And the artillery is still long ranged.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:From the range stats. Look at it. Most tau weapons cut off around 36. Their apc has an laughable 18 inch range. I exploit this all the time, i sit back and let my autocannons, lascannons, missile launchers, medusa, and manticores, ect kill the tau with out him getting many shots back.
Game mechanics =/= fluff.
The fluff is based off the game machanics. So you can use the gm as a rough guide to the fluff.
The lasgun, and most handheld weapons are still 24 or less but most heavy weapons and vechile weapons are at least 36inch or better. And the artillery is still long ranged.
Most tau heavy weapons are 36 or longer. It's only that special set of crisis suit weapons that are short range. Then seeker missiles are unlimited.
So the tau have the longest range weapon (Seeker missle). They have the longest range base weapon (Pulse rifle). Tanks seem to be about the same range. (Depends on if the tank has a battle cannon or one of the shorter range weapons.)
Devilfish may only have 18" range, but in an armored fight, they wouldn't be committed. Read up on that link about the gulf war; Bradley IFVs only found the enemy, Abrams maneuvered and destroyed them. Similarly, you can bet on the Tau to not commit to trench warfare by deploying their Devilfish and infantry unless absolutely required to in order to support the Hammerheads.
Go read up on how many Abrams tanks were destroyed by enemy tanks during the Gulf war, then go find how many Iraqi tanks were destroyed. THEN go read up on how many German tanks were lost simply due to crappy terrain whilst invading Russia.
Starting to see where a numerically superior force of IG/SM MBTs would be grabbing their ankles in any sort of open warfare?
And the soviets would disagree with you on greater tech beats greater numbers. As would the nva. As would the american army in ww2.
Soviet equipment has failed in the real world against superior tech. NVA, fighting a completely guerrilla based groundwar in dense terrain is a very specific example, and we still killed much more of them than the other way around, and while the last example is the closest, the technological gap is still just too much. We're talking about an MBT that has complete superiority in terms of range and firepower, as well as absolutely unquestionable dominance while maneuvering. We can debate all day about how the actual fight would go down, but the Hammerhead dictates where and when 100% of the time.
To quote the oft mis-quoted general:
"Getting there firstest with the mostest"
You might have hundreds Leman Russes, Predators, Chimeras, etc across 1,000 square kilometers but what really matters is what you have concentrated within a 2-3 square kilometer area, which is where the Tau's superior mobility makes a difference.
Starting to see where a numerically superior force of IG/SM MBTs would be grabbing their ankles in any sort of open warfare?
See what? That russia and iraq doesn't exist in 40k?
Negator80 wrote: NVA, fighting a completely guerrilla based groundwar in dense terrain is a very specific example, and we still killed much more of them than the other way around, and while the last example is the closest, the technological gap is still just too much. We're talking about an MBT that has complete superiority in terms of range and firepower, as well as absolutely unquestionable dominance while maneuvering. We can debate all day about how the actual fight would go down, but the Hammerhead dictates where and when 100% of the time.
The Hammerhead dies.
Seriously this nonsense of made up rates of fire, examples of real life forces compared to a fictional universe, I would suggest to stop that attempt to create proof of the improvable.
If you go for game terms, GW tables are generally too small and your vehicles cramped so tight the wouldn't be any maneuvering at all.
In fluff, whoever is the main actor of a story wins. But never as much as you seem to think. Autowins aren't possible in 40k.
Wouldn't fit in Grimdark(tm).
Dose it bother anyone that the hammerhead is a gunship, but we keep talking about it like it's a tank. Granted it looks like a tank. Anyone else bugged by this contradiction.
Starting to see where a numerically superior force of IG/SM MBTs would be grabbing their ankles in any sort of open warfare?
See what? That russia and iraq doesn't exist in 40k?
Negator80 wrote: NVA, fighting a completely guerrilla based groundwar in dense terrain is a very specific example, and we still killed much more of them than the other way around, and while the last example is the closest, the technological gap is still just too much. We're talking about an MBT that has complete superiority in terms of range and firepower, as well as absolutely unquestionable dominance while maneuvering. We can debate all day about how the actual fight would go down, but the Hammerhead dictates where and when 100% of the time.
The Hammerhead dies.
Seriously this nonsense of made up rates of fire, examples of real life forces compared to a fictional universe, I would suggest to stop that attempt to create proof of the improvable.
If you go for game terms, GW tables are generally too small and your vehicles cramped so tight the wouldn't be any maneuvering at all.
In fluff, whoever is the main actor of a story wins. But never as much as you seem to think. Autowins aren't possible in 40k.
Wouldn't fit in Grimdark(tm).
If you hadn't drank the GW koolaid too you wouldnt be saying that. Stop thinking inside the GW box (or the 4'x8'x engagement area).
It's interesting, that's why we make it up and talk about nonsensical gak like this.
EDIT: gunship, tank, it fills the role of 'deciding armored factor' for the Tau.
If you're IG playing against Tau, you could deep strike in with stormtroopers
with AP 3 hotshot lasguns and take out whatever is hiding in the back(Fire Warriors, Hammerhead, etc)
My friend plays Tau and he usually keeps everything but drones in the back.
nomotog wrote:Dose it bother anyone that the hammerhead is a gunship, but we keep talking about it like it's a tank. Granted it looks like a tank. Anyone else bugged by this contradiction.
Personally I'm fine with it. It has the weapons of a tank, the armour of a tank, and the mobility of a helicopter.
That doesn't seem a big stretch in a future where space elves riding space anti-grav bikes shoot space magic lightning at space Librarians wearing space magic helmets which deflect space magic.
Negator80 wrote:
If you hadn't drank the GW koolaid too you wouldnt be saying that. Stop thinking inside the GW box (or the 4'x8'x engagement area).
It's interesting, that's why we make it up and talk about nonsensical gak like this.
EDIT: gunship, tank, it fills the role of 'deciding armored factor' for the Tau.
koolaid? I never drink what GW offers...
The GW box is the place the rules and statlines are made for.
Real Tanks would never lumber around or sit as pillboxes there , like they had , depending on the edition played.
But, you seem to miss the difference of the GW-40k-verse. A place filled with psykers amongst other things who may screw the pure technical approach. So either the vehicles run in the environment we all know or the sandbox needs definition and the vehicles altered rules and maybe altered statlines first.
As is, they belong in 40k, on that small "battlefield"...
40k enables a lot of variety, but restricts too.
HtH is mandatory. Not optional.
Its 'drive me closer, I want to hit them with my chainsword' .....
Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.
First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years
Spoiler:
And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?
Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?
Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.
First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years
Spoiler:
And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?
Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?
A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.
Tadashi wrote:A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.
Yep, here we go (again)...
I would like to mention (again) the Tau Empire was not even around then. So your Astartes Legion has nothing to march their crusade against
Tadashi wrote:Actually I was just answering the question about the Tau confronting the Pre-Heresy Imperium.
You're missing the point. To answer to which that was already painfully obvious. A previous poster already said that such a discussion would only once again promote Imperial fanboyism, and serve no real meaningful purpose. Even if 40k Tau fought 31k Imperium, I would figure the answer was so blindingly obvious, only someone so very pro-IoM would bother to answer it, if only to just smugly once again mention the superiority of the Imperium, whether now or ten thousand years in the past.
Besides that, "Who would win between Tau and Pre-Heresy Imperium?" is one of those meaningless "what if" questions that serve no real purpose. The discussion is not even on an equal footing, considering I would argue that the Pre-Heresr warmachine was so much superior to what it was then than it is now. What if 40kIoM fought the Tau Empire if they were given an additional two-thousand year development time? They came far enough in two thousand years, how much further in another two? What about the Tau Empire in the 50k universe? They'd probably wipe the floor with 40kIoM.
I'm done here, this thread's just devolved into people, pretty much just yelling back and forth. It seems a lot more responsable and appropriate to call the situation a stand-still and let GW's writers solve the issue, they're the people getting paid for it.
If the novel Legion, was correct, neither the Tau nor the Imperium would exist in 50k. Only Chaos would be left, with 5 Chaos Gods. On the other hand, if the Emperor is reborn, as the Star Child Cycle is completed with the Golden Throne's failure, only Humans would be left in 50k.
Tadashi wrote:If the novel Legion, was correct, neither the Tau nor the Imperium would exist in 50k. Only Chaos would be left, with 5 Chaos Gods. On the other hand, if the Emperor is reborn, as the Star Child Cycle is completed with the Golden Throne's failure, only Humans would be left in 50k.
Once again, you are missing the point. I did not ask you to take the question literally. The point was so you could think about how meaningless such discussions (and others like it) are. Besides, you dont know what will happen in the next ten thousand years of the 40k universe. No one does. It's only conjecture, hyperbole and wishlisting.
Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.
First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years
Spoiler:
And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?
Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?
A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.
Well that's simply not true, is it? Ever read Horus Rising? Ever heard of the Interex? They're a similar faction to the Tau, likely with a similar sized empire with advanced technology and xenos allies. Even then, the Imperium judged the Interex to be too large an undertaking at the time, they did not have enough available forces. So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
I could see the Tau calling for help from the Eldar. The Eldar say yes, Then its a war inside a war. Warception. Both races would be obliterated though. The imperium has the man power and the tech. Tau have good tech but get them against a CQB SM army then theyre screwed. Eldar would take longer but would be destroyed nonetheless.
They were ultimately destroyed by the Imperium. At least according to False Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.
First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years
Spoiler:
And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?
Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?
A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.
Well that's simply not true, is it? Ever read Horus Rising? Ever heard of the Interex? They're a similar faction to the Tau, likely with a similar sized empire with advanced technology and xenos allies. Even then, the Imperium judged the Interex to be too large an undertaking at the time, they did not have enough available forces. So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Eldar would kick the iom butt. Ever hear of the disaster of blood nebula. The eldar wiped out an entire sector fleet. However the eldar are probually the closest thing the iom has as an ally. Granted the iom would win in the longrun.
Ronin wrote: What if 40kIoM fought the Tau Empire if they were given an additional two-thousand year development time? They came far enough in two thousand years, how much further in another two? What about the Tau Empire in the 50k universe? They'd probably wipe the floor with 40kIoM.
You see I can answer this: I don't know.
And you can't ask that question at all: because we don't know where Tau will advance in the next 2000 years.
They may try some different approaches, like genetic engineering, better AI research, better armor for basic troops...
Tau can't have teleporters ( because all teleportation in 40k goes trough the Warp ), they can't have faster FTL ( because existing FTL is the fastest speed they can achieve without going trough the Warp. Now with Necrons retconed with their FTL we only have Tau tech ) and they can't go trough Warp because they have no psykers. They wil lliterally be in the same side of the galaxy with roughly a little larger territory even after 2000 years. Because if they had larger empire they would need years to reach a planet for example. And that planet would disappear long before help arrives.
But Imperium would still be able to wipe floor with Tau even after 2000 years. Chaos, Orks, Tyranids and Necrons to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Eldar would kick the iom butt. Ever hear of the disaster of blood nebula. The eldar wiped out an entire sector fleet. However the eldar are probually the closest thing the iom has as an ally. Granted the iom would win in the longrun.
That doesn't mean that Eldar are in any way able to defeat the Imperium.
And you forgoten to mention that System Fleet attack THE CRAFTWORLD. Craftworld is size of a planet ( small ones - Earth size, large ones - Jupiter size ) that have gakload of defense guns and turrets. It would be like 2000 infantry with all sort of weapons attack heavily defended fortress, they wouldn't stand a chance even if there was 20000 of them.
But if they just rush toward the Craftworld and drop off millions of troopers into the Craftworld that would be a different story.
And in 41'st millennium Eldar and Tau are the only thing Imperium have for allies. Eldar occasionally help the Imperium, having secret pact's wit hthe Inquisition with Imperium returning their relics to them ( Like Malan'Tai Craftworld ). And Tau that actually have non-aggression pact with the Imperium and peace treaty ( that was singed after the Nimbosa massacre ).
nomotog wrote:Tau IoM treaties aren't really worth the electron scrolls there written on.
It seems it depends on the Etherial.
While most of them are for peace, some individuals will push for war and do independent things ( like Kronus or Kaurava were we have only 1 Etherial to lead Tau ).
It also depends on the Imperial Governors.
Some would gladly give up their world to have even higher power then they currently have ( Fire and Honor ), some would even go to war against Tau ( Severus ).
But Ultramarines and Imperium see Tau as no threat and sing treaty with them so that they can at least stabilize one part of the galaxy.
Peace treaty was singed AFTER Imperium conquered Nimbosa sector again.
This time, it was the Tau that seek treaty.
And we don't know when Nimbosa happened, thank you GW.
Sources:
Codex: Imperial Guard (5th Edition) - 790.M41.
Cities of Death - 993.M41.
Codex: Tau Empire (4th Edition) - "Imperial response only took four months to enact"
"Assault on Nimbosa" - 999.M41.
Ledabot wrote:Well it worked for 110 years, thats pritty good by our standards, but on a galactic level, is that a long time? I don't know.
Let me help you:
If all time of Earth existence is put on an 24 hours clock, the Human race appeared in 23:59:59.
Warhammer 41 would probably be somewhere between 0:02:00 or 0:03:00.
So, that's not even an eye blink for galactic level.
Well yea, on a galactic scale, but were not looking at the point of view of the galaxy itself, but the future view point of humans and/or tau at that time. For us, 100 years is more than a life time, a very long time. But in 40000, would it still be considered a long time? We can only ghess.
The imperium would never be albe to wipe out anything due to their slowed burocracy. Since Rowboat Girlyman slit up the legions into small uncontrollable weak chapters, it would be very hard to gather a large enough force. And the adepts of the ministorium would shoot themselves when presented with the task to get all of the Guard to the Tau. Just imagine the paperwork. And to the FTL gak. The tau can I think use the Nicassar or maybe human psykers. Besides we all know that the orks will win in the long run. They have been kicking around since the war in the heavens and the Great Crusade failed to wipe them out.
It would be cool if orks had some kind of back story about how there true perpose all along was to fight nids or something. (not crons, we know that) lol if it happens.
Space Crusader wrote:The imperium would never be albe to wipe out anything due to their slowed burocracy.
True, they lost more planets to paperwork then to the actual invader.
Since Rowboat Girlyman slit up the legions into small uncontrollable weak chapters, it would be very hard to gather a large enough force.
Point A: Tau fan and an Ultramarine hater, how nice. Guiliman split the Legion because of some minor incident called Horus Heresy. Not a big deal, right? Badab War - 4 SM Chapter rebelled against the Imperium, imagine that those were Legions. 40,000 Space Marines is not little thing at all to try and stop... Point B: They can't gather large enough force? Armageddon and 13'th Black Crusade disagree with you.
And the adepts of the ministorium would shoot themselves when presented with the task to get all of the Guard to the Tau. Just imagine the paperwork.
So very true, they would probably "lose" several Regiments in the process.
And to the FTL gak. The tau can I think use the Nicassar or maybe human psykers.
Etherials banned all of that so it's a big no no for the Tau to try to investigate psykers since they are directly connected to the Warp. And what happened to Mankind when they tried that? Oh yeah, Age of Strife.
Besides we all know that the orks will win in the long run.
Humanity, Necrons, Chaos and Tyranids disagree with that.
They have been kicking around since the war in the heavens
True, but they have been kicking themselves much more then other races since the dawn of the War in Havens.
Great Crusade failed to wipe them out.
That's because Great Crusade is still on even today ( Black Tempalrs ).
Space Crusader wrote:The imperium would never be albe to wipe out anything due to their slowed burocracy.
True, they lost more planets to paperwork then to the actual invader.
Since Rowboat Girlyman slit up the legions into small uncontrollable weak chapters, it would be very hard to gather a large enough force.
Point A: Tau fan and an Ultramarine hater, how nice. Guiliman split the Legion because of some minor incident called Horus Heresy. Not a big deal, right? Badab War - 4 SM Chapter rebelled against the Imperium, imagine that those were Legions. 40,000 Space Marines is not little thing at all to try and stop...
Point B: They can't gather large enough force? Armageddon and 13'th Black Crusade disagree with you.
And the adepts of the ministorium would shoot themselves when presented with the task to get all of the Guard to the Tau. Just imagine the paperwork.
So very true, they would probably "lose" several Regiments in the process.
And to the FTL gak. The tau can I think use the Nicassar or maybe human psykers.
Etherials banned all of that so it's a big no no for the Tau to try to investigate psykers since they are directly connected to the Warp.
And what happened to Mankind when they tried that? Oh yeah, Age of Strife.
Besides we all know that the orks will win in the long run.
Humanity, Necrons, Chaos and Tyranids disagree with that.
They have been kicking around since the war in the heavens
True, but they have been kicking themselves much more then other races since the dawn of the War in Havens.
Great Crusade failed to wipe them out.
That's because Great Crusade is still on even today ( Black Tempalrs ).
I do not hate the ultramarines, I hate Guilliman for his betrayal. If the legions still existed they would not betray the Imperium since most of their primarchs had died for it. But when almost all chapters ignore their heritage and instead become obsessed with politics and power(Astral Claws for example). Its easier to turn renegade then before thanks to the traitor Girlyman.
Space Crusader wrote:
I do not hate the ultramarines, I hate Guilliman for his betrayal. If the legions still existed they would not betray the Imperium since most of their primarchs had died for it. But when almost all chapters ignore their heritage and instead become obsessed with politics and power(Astral Claws for example). Its easier to turn renegade then before thanks to the traitor Girlyman.
Ok, that is your opinion and I respect that. And I agree with Astral Claws point.
They were ultimately destroyed by the Imperium. At least according to False Gods.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:
Tadashi wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Esp. when one poster enters that calls all tau players hateworthy and smiles at Americans being killed.
First one is true, and for the second one - no one died. Pilot was captured then released after few hours of transporting. It was more fun imagining how he would explain losing a plane worth millions of dollars to anti-air system that was outdated for 30 years
Spoiler:
And what's with you Kroothawk? 2 World Wars not enough for you?
Back to OP: What if Tau fought against the Imperium from M31?
A full Astartes Legion advancing into the Tau Empire led by a demi-god? They don't stand a chance. It's like fighting ten or more full-strength Chapters at once. Not to mention the regular component of an Expeditionary Fleet, equivalent to a full Crusading force of Guardsmen and Navy ships in the Post-Heresy Imperium. Not to mention since the Primarch has overall command, the Imperial Truth is still ascendant, the Imperial won't start having problems with inter-command and incompetence.
Well that's simply not true, is it? Ever read Horus Rising? Ever heard of the Interex? They're a similar faction to the Tau, likely with a similar sized empire with advanced technology and xenos allies. Even then, the Imperium judged the Interex to be too large an undertaking at the time, they did not have enough available forces. So yeah, you have no idea what you're talking about.
So yes, I do know what I'm talking about.
Then you missed my point completely. A sub-species of human with highly advanced technology was deemed too large to handle by even the forces the Warmaster controlled. It took months to gather enough forces, and longer to actually prosecute a campaign against them. This was at the time of the Great Crusade, the Imperium is nothing like it was back then. Even with a single leader and readily available forces it took a long time to even contemplate the possibility of a war against them. Currently, it's like a really powerful Tortoise being picked at by rats. The Tortoise could potentially kill the rats with a single hit, but its too slow and cumbersome, and its enemies are many. There are bigger things to worry about, any sort of attack on the Tau is unfeasible.
if the imperium didnt' have to fight on 1 billion other fronts and could focus soley on the tau it would be no contest. however, as it is, the tau are a really really small concern, are considred the lowest threat to the imperium so why waste time and resourses combating them fully?
I'm not terribly fond of Macharius' veiws that all memory of an enemy is to be destroyed, that's how new, advanced technology is developed, after all, human technology comes from the Dragon of Mars who is speculated to be a C'Tan...
Psienesis wrote:Macharius did, however, eventually crush the Interex.
And now, "... nothing is left of them and their works but dust", to quote Lord Solar Macharius' journal.
Afaik that quote was from the destruction of Adrantis V and not from the destruction of the Interex, whose fate remains unknown.
For all we know the Interex might have been completely forgotten and still exists in relative isolation beyond the borders of the current Imperium.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Yeah I know, but the military training in me has a hard time dealing with such blatant idiocy.
Really my military experience has taught me exactly how to deal with that. That being said I was USAF computer programming and helpdesk(got out a few years ago), and most of my helpdesk training consisted of how to tell people what they were doing was stupid in a respectful manner.
Every faction has annoying fanboys. The SoB seem to have less of them (part of why I picked it up), the Ork ones are easiest to deal with (they just scream waaah and talk funny), and the Eldar ones usually seem worse (call me mon'keigh again and i will punch your tanks out of the sky, maybe IRL too).
The problem that most player have with tau is the low grimdark quotient. The setting is supposed to be "no good guys', and even with the brainwashing and sterilization that was added in the fluff (second codex i want to say) they are still the bright shiny flower children of the setting. All of the other factions are utterly deplorable, tau are only mildly deplorable. Now if they genocide off a few races, and do some other stuff that will run them off the moral event horizon like everyone else, they might get more acceptance. Orks are the 2nd least Grimdark, and they are a race genetically engineered psychic psychopathic murderers. They are also the absolute funniest faction.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Yeah I know, but the military training in me has a hard time dealing with such blatant idiocy.
Really my military experience has taught me exactly how to deal with that. That being said I was USAF computer programming and helpdesk(got out a few years ago), and most of my helpdesk training consisted of how to tell people what they were doing was stupid in a respectful manner.
Every faction has annoying fanboys. The SoB seem to have less of them (part of why I picked it up), the Ork ones are easiest to deal with (they just scream waaah and talk funny), and the Eldar ones usually seem worse (call me mon'keigh again and i will punch your tanks out of the sky, maybe IRL too).
The problem that most player have with tau is the low grimdark quotient. The setting is supposed to be "no good guys', and even with the brainwashing and sterilization that was added in the fluff (second codex i want to say) they are still the bright shiny flower children of the setting. All of the other factions are utterly deplorable, tau are only mildly deplorable. Now if they genocide off a few races, and do some other stuff that will run them off the moral event horizon like everyone else, they might get more acceptance. Orks are the 2nd least Grimdark, and they are a race genetically engineered psychic psychopathic murderers. They are also the absolute funniest faction.
USAF...its kinda military experiance , J/K battle, well I am Combat arms, and even had to do my Drill time, which sucked BTW, But I understand what you say, I just enjoy a good fluff discussion without devolving into how much one side can sodomize the other, at that point all interest for the dialogue ends.
It's nice to have military experience on this sort of topic, hopefully I will qualify as having it as I am planning to enlist in a few years (after college and such). Also, I find that the Tau aren't completly devoid of grimdarkness, I think that they just do a good job of covering some of it up... I personally an basing my Tau of off some of the most recognizable baddies in videogaming history...
Imagine the Imperium are an Elephant and the Tau are a Mouse. The scale is pretty similar.
Now the Elephant can easily crusth the Mouse if it chooses to. Yeah the mouse can scurry aroudn a bit, making it harder. It might even deliver a sharp bite when the foot comes down, but there is really nothing the mosue can do to stop that foot when it starts moving.
However, in the same enclosure as the Elephant and the Mouse we have a pack of jackals (Chaos) a pack of Hyenas (Orks) a pride of Lions (Chaos Marines) and a swarm of army ants ('nids).
Please explain to me why the Elephant would waste it's time squishing the Mouse.
Jefffar wrote:Imagine the Imperium are an Elephant and the Tau are a Mouse. The scale is pretty similar.
Now the Elephant can easily crusth the Mouse if it chooses to. Yeah the mouse can scurry aroudn a bit, making it harder. It might even deliver a sharp bite when the foot comes down, but there is really nothing the mosue can do to stop that foot when it starts moving.
However, in the same enclosure as the Elephant and the Mouse we have a pack of jackals (Chaos) a pack of Hyenas (Orks) a pride of Lions (Chaos Marines) and a swarm of army ants ('nids).
Please explain to me why the Elephant would waste it's time squishing the Mouse.
I would consider 'Nids more formidable than "army ants"
Also, the Tau are a growing collective, they may be mice for now but they are growing into a capybara...eventually even bigger, mammoth mouse maybe...
I would consider 'Nids more formidable than "army ants"
Also, the Tau are a growing collective, they may be mice for now but they are growing into a capybara...eventually even bigger, mammoth mouse maybe...
fair enough, but against an elephant, im not entirely sure that they could bite through sucha thick hide as easily as the tyranids conquer imperial planets.
Squidmanlolz wrote:
I would consider 'Nids more formidable than "army ants"
Also, the Tau are a growing collective, they may be mice for now but they are growing into a capybara...eventually even bigger, mammoth mouse maybe...
Would you?
Even the largest known Nid-fleets have always been stopped by no more than a single Space Marine chapter. Smaller Nid-fleets have been brought to a screeching halt by even smaller things like Ork Freebootaz, inventive Inquisitors or, as it stands, the Tau. One splinter fleet was killed to the last bug by Maugan Ra singlehandedly. Iyanden as a Craftworld more or less engineered the end of not one but two Hive Fleets! Hive Fleet Jormungandr's vanguard was actually OUTNUMBERED! by the Vallhallan 18th.
If a single Space Marine Chapter is enough to stop major Hive Fleets like Behemoth (and there're thousands of Space Marine Chapters in the IoM) and a single Craftworld can engineer the end of 2 Hive Fleets (and there's still several dozend Craftworlds out there) and a single IG Regiment can outnumber an Hive-Fleet vanguard (and there're millions of IG regiments out there), Tyranids don't seem much more than ants at best. There's been less than 20 Hive Fleets overall at best.
Compare that to Tau, for example the battle over the Forgeworld Praetonis V, where it took the combined forces of no less than 9 Space Marine Chapters (about the equivalent of the SM Forces deployed in the Badab War), including Ultramarines under Sicarius, the Aurora Chapter and the Crimson Fists to move the Tau. Given the Nids record, 9 Space Marine Chapters, including many of the "named" and "important" ones, seems plenty to deal with pretty much all Tyranids known to have entered the Galaxy over several centuries simultaniously.
In short, Tyranids' military record is pretty pathetic. If you think Tau are insignificant compared to the IoM, Tyranids with their even less significant record of making any meaningful dent in the power-balance of the Galaxy would likely not even show on the map.
Tyranids never took Maccragge (unlike the Tau who did take major imperial worlds like the Forgeworld Praetonis V for a while). Not to mention that Behemoth was the very first ever Hive Fleet to enter the IoM, new, unknown enemy and all that.
But hell, even in an alternate universe where the Nids would have taken Maccragge and annhiliated the Ultramarines. That'd be one chapter down, several thousands to go. That is alot of toes.
My bad, I thought that the Tyranids won the battle for Maccragge... oops, It would have given the ultras a little more flavor if their home was taken from them.
Squidmanlolz wrote:My bad, I thought that the Tyranids won the battle for Maccragge... oops, It would have given the ultras a little more flavor if their home was taken from them.
That is a tangent, but I disagree. If Ultramarines had lost their homeworld, they'd be stepping on Dark Angel toes. They are far more unique and flavourfull as what they are now, "inofficial" rulers of a "mini-"realm that in many ways lives up to what the entire Imperium could perhaps be. It fits their narrative role as paragons far better and is certainly a gazillion times more interesting than the 184th gloom-and-doom Dark Angel clone roaming the Galaxy in fading memory of past glory.
Psienesis wrote:Macharius did, however, eventually crush the Interex.
And now, "... nothing is left of them and their works but dust", to quote Lord Solar Macharius' journal.
Afaik that quote was from the destruction of Adrantis V and not from the destruction of the Interex, whose fate remains unknown.
For all we know the Interex might have been completely forgotten and still exists in relative isolation beyond the borders of the current Imperium.
No, the Interex were conquered (or destroyed) by the Imperium. It says so in the novel False Gods.
Jefffar wrote:Imagine the Imperium are an Elephant and the Tau are a Mouse. The scale is pretty similar.
Now the Elephant can easily crusth the Mouse if it chooses to. Yeah the mouse can scurry aroudn a bit, making it harder. It might even deliver a sharp bite when the foot comes down, but there is really nothing the mosue can do to stop that foot when it starts moving.
However, in the same enclosure as the Elephant and the Mouse we have a pack of jackals (Chaos) a pack of Hyenas (Orks) a pride of Lions (Chaos Marines) and a swarm of army ants ('nids).
Please explain to me why the Elephant would waste it's time squishing the Mouse.
What I love about that analogy. Elephants are afraid of mice.
Squidmanlolz wrote:My bad, I thought that the Tyranids won the battle for Maccragge... oops, It would have given the ultras a little more flavor if their home was taken from them.
That is a tangent, but I disagree. If Ultramarines had lost their homeworld, they'd be stepping on Dark Angel toes. They are far more unique and flavourfull as what they are now, "inofficial" rulers of a "mini-"realm that in many ways lives up to what the entire Imperium could perhaps be. It fits their narrative role as paragons far better and is certainly a gazillion times more interesting than the 184th gloom-and-doom Dark Angel clone roaming the Galaxy in fading memory of past glory.
I just want them to allow one actually bad thing to happen to the Ultrasmurfs. The new SM codex has made me actively hate them though, so it's likely just me feeling vindictive since I can never be an ultramarine.
The point is. The IoM dose go out of it's way not to kill the tau. Nearly every crusade into tau space gets called back after one system and thanks to the revisionists in BL these are crusades that are going very well at the time too.
Jefffar wrote:
Of course. I had to explain why Imperium Fans frequently discuss Tau genocide instead of dealing with the real problems the Imperium faces.
We deal with real problems with Chaos and Tyranids. But when you got Tau fans that constantly wine about how much powerful Tau is - how can you ignore them?
WE explain then that they are minor threat in the galaxy, and they call us "Tau genocidalist".
nomotog wrote:What I love about that analogy. Elephants are afraid of mice.
Of course. I had to explain why Imperium Fans frequently discuss Tau genocide instead of dealing with the real problems the Imperium faces.
Maybe it's because the tau are the only race that the IoM can actually fight. Maybe nids too because of the worf effect, but everyone else is beasicly immune to being defeated by the IoM.
Jefffar wrote:
Of course. I had to explain why Imperium Fans frequently discuss Tau genocide instead of dealing with the real problems the Imperium faces.
We deal with real problems with Chaos and Tyranids. But when you got Tau fans that constantly wine about how much powerful Tau is - how can you ignore them?
WE explain then that they are minor threat in the galaxy, and they call us "Tau genocidalist".
Which is true, Tau forum posters keep saying how Tau is the best and how they have powerful weapons. It's just inviting trouble from Imperial or other forum posters.
.... how would it look like if every time Imperial Army get slaughtered Imperias fans whine?
