Quick question regarding the new rez orb mechanic.

It states that it affects the Lord and his unit. My question is, when is that determined? Primarily, I'm thinking along this type of scenario:

A Lord is attached to a 10 man squad of Warriors. The Lord and 2 Warriors each suffer a wound in the shooting phase. Leadership test is passed. When RP kicks in, is it:

a) a 4+ for the Lord and Warriors
b) a 5+ for the Lord and Warriors
c) a 4+ for the Lord and a 5+ for the Warriors
d) a 4+ for the Lord and if he resurrects successfully then a 4+ Warriors, if he does not a 5+ for the Warriors

Thanks!

A.

RP is all done at the same time(that is to say the resolution is considered simultaneous, so order that it is actually done in does not matter).

Roll for the overlords/lords/crypteks separately as they are not RP tokens, but everliving tokens.

This means if your lord and overlord die, and you roll 2 dice, 1 succeeds and one doesn't you can pick which one to bring back

Unless its been changed, res orb is checked when the model died.

WanderingFox wrote:Unless its been changed, res orb is checked when the model died.

I don't follow.

do you mean changed from the old book?

If so, then yes it has.

RP is all rolled for in 1 go, EL tokens roll for RP; El just changes how/when/where they can return.

The Lord + 4 warriors that go down are all replaced by tokens, 4 RP tokens for the warriors, 1 EL token for the lord. You then roll for all 5 tokens(the EL either separately or with a different colored die) using the Res Orb benefits. If the Lord does not return, and you take more casualties in the next phase(or any later phases); then those RP rolls will not benefit from the res orb.

If you are rolling the dice separately for the RP tokens and the EL token, the order you roll them in does not matter; even if you roll the EL token first and the Lord does not return.

I meant in specific to when the res orb needs to be in play in order for it to effectively count for being there. This was obviously a big topic of concern in the old codex since it effected models outside of the unit it was in, but it still has some relevance now.

To explain further, perhaps an example from the old codex?

Take for example, a unit of necron warriors. They are shot to below 75% strength, and thus must take a fall back move. Due to this movement they have moved into the range of a res orb. At the start of the next necron turn do the models get up as if the res orb is in range?

The answer to this for the old codex is a resounding no as the FAQ clearly states that the res orb must be in range when the model is removed from play in order for it to gain the benefits.

Now, back to the OP's question, the lord and the 2 warriors die. These three models were all affected by the lord's res orb when the models died, and thus would get their rolls at the end of the phase.

If they have not deviated from the wording, this would also mean that any warriors shot down in another round of shooting would not get the benefit of a res orb since it would not be present when the model died (since the lord would now just be an ever living token).

That would mean if something like the following happened:
2 warriors, 1 lord killed.
3 warriors killed.

You'd make 1 everliving roll @ 4+, 2 RP rolls @ 4+ and then 3 RP rolls @ 5+

Like I said, however, this is based on the assumption that they have not changed the way the orb functions in the new codex. As far as I'm aware, the new wording is extremely vague, so I've been going with the above, which is exactly how you'd play it in the old codex.

No, they have completely changed the function in the new codex.

New wording is(paraphrased to avoid breaking Forum rules, but not changing the mechanics): The bearer of the res orb(and his unit) pass their RP on "a better number".

since RP is now done at the end of every phase, and all done simultaneously, it is very concise. It does not matter who died first in the phase, all that matters is that the bearer(and/or his unit) is making an RP roll.

Except that the lord is no longer part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols when it dies.

Not only that, the model is no longer there. You're arguing that the model that had the piece of wargear is still effecting the battlefield even after it's died. That's like me saying that my sanguinary priest is still providing FNP even though you killed him in an assault the same phase as another assault was taking place.

The model is no longer on the table, it is no longer part of the unit of warriors that are still up (or the ones that are dead for that matter, but I covered why they get it in my previous post). Therefore, the piece of wargear does not exist when the other warriors die, and even if your argument made sense, the lord ceases to be a part of that unit the second it dies since it is removed from the board and is thus, no longer in coherency with any of the models still on the table.

While I agree, after rereading it, that RAI is that the whole unit would roll on a 4+ if it contained an orb in the phase the rolls were being made on, RAW does not support it one bit.

edit:
To clarify my previous example... that was all happening in one shooting phase.

Tactical squad A fires, kills 2 warriors and a lord
Tactical squad B fires, kills 3 more warriors
End of shooting
2 warriors and a lord died when the res orb was on the board (since the shots of a single unit all land simultaneously). They roll at 4+
3 warriors died when the res orb was not on the board (since the lord model is removed as a casualty from the previous volley of shots). These warriors roll at a 5+
RP occurs at the end of the phase, so all of these rolls are made simultaneously (ie. the lord cannot get up first). Ergo, you roll 1 4+ ever living, 2 4+ RP, and 3 5+ RP

"Except that the lord is no longer part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols when it dies.
"

No such rule exists. EL even specifies the situation where the EL model had joined.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Except that the lord is no longer part of the unit for the purposes of reanimation protocols when it dies.
"

No such rule exists. EL even specifies the situation where the EL model had joined.

I don't think that's the point being made. The 'bearer' of the Res Orb is no longer on the table. It is removed from play and a token is placed in its stead. The question is, "Do the models that have been removed as a casualty, including the Lord, gain the benefits of the Orb when the model bearing the Orb has been replaced by a token?" I would assert that per the RAW you do not get the 4+.

-Yad

I would assert that per the RAW; you do get the 4+.

Reason being that if the bearer is not on the table when he is an EL token, then the bearer can never benefit from the res Orb(and he is specified as benefiting).

The only way for a res orb to work for the bearer is for it to work when the bearer is an EL token.

Since the EL token and the RP tokens are still to be returned to their unit, then any RP tokens will benefit as well.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I would assert that per the RAW; you do get the 4+.

Reason being that if the bearer is not on the table when he is an EL token, then the bearer can never benefit from the res Orb(and he is specified as benefiting).

The only way for a res orb to work for the bearer is for it to work when the bearer is an EL token.

Since the EL token and the RP tokens are still to be returned to their unit, then any RP tokens will benefit as well.

I get what you're saying. I do think that the current way the Orb is worded prevents the bearer from gaining its benefits. There would have to be another model alive in the unit that has an Orb. I don't think that the token bears the the Res Orb.

-Yad

The primary beneficiary of the res orb is the bearer.

In fact the wording would have to allow the bearer to benefit it since he is specified.

The bearer rolls rp at a 4+.

It is that simple, and that clear.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The primary beneficiary of the res orb is the bearer.

In fact the wording would have to allow the bearer to benefit it since he is specified.

The bearer rolls rp at a 4+.

It is that simple, and that clear.

I would say that the primary beneficiary of the Res Orb are those models with the RP rule. The wording certainly does not suggest that the 'token' which replaces the model with Res Orb gains the 4+ roll. It's a token, it is not the model that you purchased the Res Orb for. Yes, I agree it is that simple and clear.

-Yad

Yad wrote:
I get what you're saying. I do think that the current way the Orb is worded prevents the bearer from gaining its benefits. There would have to be another model alive in the unit that has an Orb. I don't think that the token bears the the Res Orb.

-Yad

Your position is that the rule which clearly says that the bearer gains the benefit of the rule somehow doesn't gain the benefit of the rule?

Folk wisdom about how the rules work like "Models that are dead don't benefit from their wargear" is not valid when GW goes out and invents wargear that only works when the model dies.

You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

What I was getting at, and how orb worked in the past, is that if the lord is shot down in one volly of fire, and then another volley kills more warriors, the warriors killed in the second volley are not in the presence of a res orb when they died since the lord is no longer on the table.

Also, nosferatu, go read your codex. I'll list it in detail here just to be crystal clear.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols"

Page 29 of the Necron Codex, Reanimation Protocols Section, Last Paragraph, Second sentence.

And just to prove it some more... see attached image.

Like I said, from a RAI point of view I agree with you all 100%, however there is no backing in the RAW.

solkan wrote:

Yad wrote:
I get what you're saying. I do think that the current way the Orb is worded prevents the bearer from gaining its benefits. There would have to be another model alive in the unit that has an Orb. I don't think that the token bears the the Res Orb.

-Yad

Your position is that the rule which clearly says that the bearer gains the benefit of the rule somehow doesn't gain the benefit of the rule?

Folk wisdom about how the rules work like "Models that are dead don't benefit from their wargear" is not valid when GW goes out and invents wargear that only works when the model dies.

You're seem to be either deliberately misrepresenting what I'm saying or missing the point entirely.

-Yad

So what is your point? Your claim is that the bearer of the res orb cannot benefit from the 4+, yet the rules say exactly the opposite.

WanderingFox wrote:You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

What I was getting at, and how orb worked in the past, is that if the lord is shot down in one volly of fire, and then another volley kills more warriors, the warriors killed in the second volley are not in the presence of a res orb when they died since the lord is no longer on the table.

Also, nosferatu, go read your codex. I'll list it in detail here just to be crystal clear.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols"

Page 29 of the Necron Codex, Reanimation Protocols Section, Last Paragraph, Second sentence.

And just to prove it some more... see attached image.

Like I said, from a RAI point of view I agree with you all 100%, however there is no backing in the RAW.

I'd also like to point out the rule for the Resurrection Orb:

BRB, page 82, Resurrection Orb (my emphasis) wrote:
The bearer of the Resurrection Orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocol rolls on a 4+.

By RAW, the Lord and the unit he is with benefit from the ResOrb. The ResOrb works even if the Lord is downed in the phase prior to other models within the unit going down (such as in Assaulting). This is the RAW.

WanderingFox wrote:You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

What I was getting at, and how orb worked in the past, is that if the lord is shot down in one volly of fire, and then another volley kills more warriors, the warriors killed in the second volley are not in the presence of a res orb when they died since the lord is no longer on the table.

Also, nosferatu, go read your codex. I'll list it in detail here just to be crystal clear.

"Note that characters do not count as part of the unit for purposes of Reanimation Protocols"

Page 29 of the Necron Codex, Reanimation Protocols Section, Last Paragraph, Second sentence.

And just to prove it some more... see attached image.

Like I said, from a RAI point of view I agree with you all 100%, however there is no backing in the RAW.

Fox, read the rest of that sentence; your highlighted portion is being taken out of context.

A Character that is the only member of the unit alive, does not count for RP to the unit.

The Character has EL; so the character can always attempt to revive; and does so on the 4+.

@komissssar I'm aware of the rest of the phrasing, but even if you were to take it as to only referencing that specific example, there is still no rules that support the orb functioning once the lord is off the table, or at the very least no one has provided any.


@avatar:
What you're arguing is the following:

I have a lord w/ 10 warriors. The lord dies and does not return to play. Next phase you kill 4 warriors. By your logic, I can take RP at a 4+ on those 4 warriors because they are "part of the lords unit" even though the lord with the wargear is not present.

This makes absolutely no sense, and has no backing in the rules.

A model ceases to be a part of a unit the second it is 'removed as a casualty' which happens the moment you place that ever living counter.

Allow me to illustrate this with a known example from another codex.

The blood chalice provides FNP and furious charge to any unit within 6" of the chalice. When does this power take effect when a model is charging?

The FAQ for Blood Angels answers this and sets precedent.

"Q: At what point does a model need to be in range of
a Blood Chalice or The Red Grail in order to gain the
bonuses of Furious Charge? (p48, 49, 52)
A: When you put the bonuses to use, i.e. when the
model makes its close combat attacks."

In other words, they must be within 6" of the chalice when the power would come into play.

Back to our other example, the orb is 'put to use' when the necron dies since that's when you're placing RP tokens. The orb is no longer in the unit once the lord is off the table.

Just to clarify your side of this... Does the unit an independent character starts in count as 'his unit' even after the independent character dies/moves out of coherency?

What you're arguing here is that even after the lord is dead and gone (say 3 turns later), that the unit it was originally a part of can STILL take RP rolls at a 4+. That does not make any sense.

This is along the same string of topics.

If a lord in a group were to be RFP via lets say JOWW, and some warriors in his group died also they would then have to use the 5+ RP correct?

They don't get RP at all. JOWW acts like a sweeping advance for those models. They were never 'removed as casualties' they were simply removed from the table. If they were killed via say... shooting from another squad, yes the ones that were killed via normal shooting (ie removed as a casualty) would then test RP at a 5+

The lord is not present when it dies = no RP at 4+ Although apparently people play that differently :3

WanderingFox wrote:They don't get RP at all. JOWW acts like a sweeping advance for those models. They were never 'removed as casualties' they were simply removed from the table. If they were killed via say... shooting from another squad, yes the ones that were killed via normal shooting (ie removed as a casualty) would then test RP at a 5+

The lord is not present when it dies = no RP at 4+ Although apparently people play that differently :3

no this one is correct; the Lord, or his EL token are not Present at rolling for RP; therefore no 4+ RP.

And Fox you are still ignoring that the Lord, himself is the locus of the Res orb, it is very specific in that the lord gets to make his RP roll on the 4+, the parenthetical to extend to his unit is ancillary.

If he did not benefit from his Orb, then his Orb would not say "the bearer(and his unit)"; it would say "the Bearer's unit"

when did I ever say the lord doesn't get to use his orb? I'm pretty sure I actually said the exact opposite 3 or 4 posts ago...

edit:

WanderingFox wrote:You all missed my point... the piece of wargear is present when the lord dies. That's all that matters. He gets the benefits always because the orb is always present when he dies (since its on his model).

end edit.

The el token has NO IMPACT on the game. It is not a model. It is not a lord. It is a marker. This is clearly stated in the necron codex.

By your own admission, if the lord is not present, then the RP rolls of any models that die after the lord are made at a 5+.

The wording of both RP and EL make it explicitly clear that the model is still removed as a casualty.

You can't agree to only half of that as the lord is removed as a casualty in both cases before the other warriors die.

This is even proven in the BRB in the shooting section.

You must completely finish one units shooting phase before moving onto the next. That means that the following happens in order:

Unit A fires
Deals wounds
Saves failed
Lord and 2 warriors are REMOVED AS CASUALTIES
2 RP tokens and 1 EL token are placed near the unit of warriors to denote the rolls that must be taken at the end of the phase.

Unit B fires
Deals wounds
Saves failed
3 more warriors are removed as casualties
3 more RP tokens are added. However, there is no lord in the unit that the 3 warriors came from. It was removed as a casualty already (exactly as in the other example that spanned a turn).

Your argument is that the EL token some how is still conferring the res orb benefit to the unit. However, an EL token is not a Necron Lord with a Res Orb. That model is not on the table.

And as much as I'd love to play it with all 5 warriors and the lord getting a 4+ RP, it is just not supported by the rules as written. 2 warriors and the lord roll at 4+, the other 3 warriors roll at 5+

I think what you don't get is that the ResOrb now is completely different from the one in the previous codex (and the BA Grail). If it worked in a 6" bobble like the previous one, then your would have a point.

The new ResOrb's effect comes into play at the time of the RP roll. No sooner, no later. At that time everyone rolls on a 4+. If the lord doesn't make it, then in the next phase all RP rolls happen on 5+, because there is no orb anymore to get activated. Plain and simple.

I get that, however, that interpretation self-contradicts with reanimation protocols.

If the lord not being on the table does not confer the 4+ bonus (as you just admitted). How is it giving the bonus when it's removed from the table prior to the RP rolls being made?

A lord with a resorb just means that there is an ability that triggers when it's time for the RP rolls. It isn't an everpresent effect as the previous one, that at the time of the damage, that effect decided whether to roll or not for WBB. Now it is an one time effect that gets triggered only at the time of the RP roll. If you have casualties and the bearer is among them, since he is entitled a 4+ RP roll, then so will his unit. In a later RP roll when the lord with the orb isn't there anymore, at the time of the RP there won't be any effect to get triggered. So 5+ RP rolls.

I hope I didn't make things too complicated, sometimes my english seem to fail me...

Again, while I understand that from a RAI point of view, RAW does not agree with it.

The lord ceases to be there the second it dies. This is very clearly stated in reanimation protocols that the model is still removed as a casualty.

What has me still debating this is that no one has been able to satisfactorily explain, with rules evidence, how this being removed as a casualty is any different than the removed as a casualty that is described in the other scenario.

In short, how is it dieing in a shooting phase first, and it not being there in a subsequent phase any different, from a rules point of view? Both involve the model being removed as a casualty prior to the RP rolls being made, and nothing in EL or RP states that the token continues to act as the model. In both cases the rest of the warriors cease to be part of the lord's "unit" the second the lord is removed as a casualty.

WanderingFox wrote:@komissssar I'm aware of the rest of the phrasing, but even if you were to take it as to only referencing that specific example, there is still no rules that support the orb functioning once the lord is off the table, or at the very least no one has provided any.


@avatar:
What you're arguing is the following:

I have a lord w/ 10 warriors. The lord dies and does not return to play. Next phase you kill 4 warriors. By your logic, I can take RP at a 4+ on those 4 warriors because they are "part of the lords unit" even though the lord with the wargear is not present.
This makes absolutely no sense, and has no backing in the rules.

No. Reread my post. I said at the start of the phase. If the ResOrb isn't available at the start of the phase, obviously, its not available at the end of the phase.

A model ceases to be a part of a unit the second it is 'removed as a casualty' which happens the moment you place that ever living counter.

Regardless of your logic the ResOrb rule explicitly states the Lord and the unit he is with benefits from the affects of the Orb. By your "logic" the Lord can never benefit from the affect of the ResOrb, yet the rule of the ResOrb EXPLICITLY states otherwise.

Allow me to illustrate this with a known example from another codex.

Actually, no. Rules from another codex, or FAQs for other codices, do not affect other codices unless explicitly stated as such.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

WanderingFox wrote:@komissssar I'm aware of the rest of the phrasing, but even if you were to take it as to only referencing that specific example, there is still no rules that support the orb functioning once the lord is off the table, or at the very least no one has provided any.


@avatar:
What you're arguing is the following:

I have a lord w/ 10 warriors. The lord dies and does not return to play. Next phase you kill 4 warriors. By your logic, I can take RP at a 4+ on those 4 warriors because they are "part of the lords unit" even though the lord with the wargear is not present.
This makes absolutely no sense, and has no backing in the rules.

No. Reread my post. I said at the start of the phase. If the ResOrb isn't available at the start of the phase, obviously, its not available at the end of the phase.

A model ceases to be a part of a unit the second it is 'removed as a casualty' which happens the moment you place that ever living counter.

Regardless of your logic the ResOrb rule explicitly states the Lord and the unit he is with benefits from the affects of the Orb. By your "logic" the Lord can never benefit from the affect of the ResOrb, yet the rule of the ResOrb EXPLICITLY states otherwise.

Allow me to illustrate this with a known example from another codex.

Actually, no. Rules from another codex, or FAQs for other codices, do not affect other codices unless explicitly stated as such.

1. No where in the necron codex does it state start of phase.

2. My logic works just fine. Orb is present when the lord dies, lord gets 4+ As the orb is ALWAYS present when the lord dies, he always gets a 4+ ... still trying to figure out how you can manage to read that as the exact opposite of what I was saying.

3. Sure they do, they set precedent. While they may not function to the point where they can be used as a stand alone explanation, they point at how it's functioned in other situations, and perhaps with clearer wording.

In counter, I'd like you to point out, with a quote, where it says in the codex that the orb functions the way you describe. Specifically.

I certainly can't find it. All I see is that the lord and his unit pass RP on a 4+ This then begs the question what constitutes a unit and if the lord is still part of the unit.

By your argument, the lord is part of the unit for the entire phase of shooting, even if it's been removed as a casualty. This directly contradicts not only common sense, but also the wording in several codecs as well as the BRB.

If you wanted to be absolutely adherent to the RAW. The res orb would never function at all. Since this is obviously wrong, we go to the next closest thing, and there are several codecs that make use of powers that can be 'out-ranged' or otherwise shut off mid-combat. ALL of these powers have FAQ entries that explicitly state that the power must be active at the time of use in order for it to function.

What you suggest, while it makes sense from a logical perspective (in terms of game balance at least), completely ignores this precedent. It also completely ignores the fact that the model is removed as a casualty.

What I have asked several times now, and what no one has done, is prove, with rules, that the lord is still a member of the unit when the second set of warriors dies.

Again and again I ask this question, and no one has come up with an answer. You keep saying things like "at the beginning of the phase" and "the ever living counter" but these things have absolutely no rules background.

What I have been saying is grounded solidly, not only in the history of how the power has functioned in the past, but also in the direct wording of the codex.

Allow me to elaborate a final time before I leave this discussion as a lost cause...

10 warriors, 1 lord (lords unit = 10 warriors)

2 warriors and 1 lord die due to a round of shooting from tac squad A.

You place 2 RP counters and an EL counter. These models were part of the lord's unit, and thus get a 4+ roll at the end of the phase since they 'test RP on a 4+'

8 warriors (lords unit = nothing. Lord no longer exists)

3 more warriors die to a round of shooting from tac squad B in the same shooting phase.

You place an additional 3 RP counters. These models are not part of the lord's unit (there is no lord in coherency with them at the time that they die). These counters test on a 5+

In order for your interpretation to function, the section containing 8 warriors must still be considered part of the lords unit even though the lord is no longer on the board. I will ask again, If an IC, for example, provides FNP for a unit and that IC is taken out at I6 in close combat, do the models that get attacked at I4 still have FNP? The answer here is obviously no. The model providing the bonus is no longer present.

So... My final request of you is to prove, with a rule or FAQ entry, that RP functions differently.

You're right. As long as the Lord benefits from the ResOrb the rest of the unit does. When the Lord goes down, the Orb is no longer functioning thus the remaining unit does not benefit.

I must say I disagree. Res-orb's says that lord and unit pass RP on a 4+. Why would you check if a model is eligible for the 4+ before the time of RP? It has no bubble of influence any more, so no need to check when models are in its radius. It's just a unit with an orb.When it's time for RP you check if a model has an orb, and proceed with the roll. That's how I see it.

I thought that I had all of the darned questions already!!! This is absurd!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/409141.page

copper.talos wrote:I must say I disagree. Res-orb's says that lord and unit pass RP on a 4+. Why would you check if a model is eligible for the 4+ before the time of RP? It has no bubble of influence any more, so no need to check when models are in its radius. It's just a unit with an orb.When it's time for RP you check if a model has an orb, and proceed with the roll. That's how I see it.

Then its checked at the end of the phase, and the lord may never benifit from its own orb (as its already off the board at the time of reanimation protocols). This clearly contradicts the wording of the res orb.

copper.talos wrote:I must say I disagree. Res-orb's says that lord and unit pass RP on a 4+. Why would you check if a model is eligible for the 4+ before the time of RP? It has no bubble of influence any more, so no need to check when models are in its radius. It's just a unit with an orb.When it's time for RP you check if a model has an orb, and proceed with the roll. That's how I see it.

The Orb's affect is checked at the time the model is damaged. In the course of a battle it matters when the bearer of the Orb is damaged. Once the bearer goes down, the Orb is no longer available, in fact it's not even on the table per RAW. Thus, remaining models in the unit do not benefit from the, now, nonexistent Orb.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
The Orb's affect is checked at the time the model is damaged. In the course of a battle it matters when the bearer of the Orb is damaged. Once the bearer goes down, the Orb is no longer available, in fact it's not even on the table per RAW. Thus, remaining models in the unit do not benefit from the, now, nonexistent Orb.

100% made up check.

There is nothing in the Rez Orb's rules that tell you to check if the model has, or had the res orb any time before rolling for RP.
The model with the res orb does not have to be on the table in order for it to function; by necessity it almost cannot be(in the case of the dead bearer).

This is not an Item/rule that has a ranged effect.

This is not an item/rule that affects Reserves rolls

This is an Item that allows the bearer and his unit to have an easier time of returning from being tokens.

The Only checks ever needed are as follows:
Are you making an RP roll? Did you purchase a Res Orb for a model still alive in the unit, or one of the Tokens making an RP roll?

If both are yes; 4+ RP rolls this phase.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
The Orb's affect is checked at the time the model is damaged. In the course of a battle it matters when the bearer of the Orb is damaged. Once the bearer goes down, the Orb is no longer available, in fact it's not even on the table per RAW. Thus, remaining models in the unit do not benefit from the, now, nonexistent Orb.

100% made up check.

There is nothing in the Rez Orb's rules that tell you to check if the model has, or had the res orb any time before rolling for RP.
The model with the res orb does not have to be on the table in order for it to function; by necessity it almost cannot be(in the case of the dead bearer).

This is not an Item/rule that has a ranged effect.

This is not an item/rule that affects Reserves rolls

This is an Item that allows the bearer and his unit to have an easier time of returning from being tokens.

Not made up, applied RAW.....

When the Lord is removed due to damage, where is the ResOrb on the table? Right, it's off the table.

The rule is for the bearer and the unit he is in. If the bearer is removed from the table, he's no longer part of the unit. The Orb is no longer on the table thus cannot affect the remaining models of the unit.

The Only checks ever needed are as follows:
Are you making an RP roll? Did you purchase a Res Orb for a model still alive in the unit, or one of the Tokens making an RP roll?

If both are yes; 4+ RP rolls this phase.

Absolutely not! Show me where in the rules a piece of wargear is usable when the model has been removed from the table? The ResOrb rule makes no such claim. The rule states the bearer (and the unit he is in) gains a 4+ RP roll instead of a 5+. Since the affect of the Orb is not stated to continue beyond the grave of the bearer, the Orb must be on the table to be effective.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The rule states the bearer (and the unit he is in) gains a 4+ RP roll instead of a 5+. Since the affect of the Orb is not stated to continue beyond the grave of the bearer, the Orb must be on the table to be effective.

The rule explicitly states that the bearer gains a 4+ RP roll, and you're arguing that the bearer can never benefit from the Orb?

I really don't see the problem hear the codex says that the bearer and his unit get a 4+. Seem pretty simple. A remember reading somewhere that the codex takes precedent when it conflicts with the rules. And as far as logic goes it's GW and Mat Ward were talking about here. They don't exactly right air tight and rock solid rules dude. This isn't wizards of the coast.

wowsmash wrote:A remember reading somewhere that the codex takes precedent when it conflicts with the rules.

I don't understand why people continually get this wrong. It's not codex trumps BGB. It's specific trumps general.

What I'm trying to say is that codex necrons is a new codex righten with 6th edition in mind. Your arguing for rules verification that isn't possible because they haven't been published yet. WBB doesn't exist anymore. It's reanimation protocol now and it functions differently than the old one. And since WBB is scraped I'll be going with what the codex says until they either FAQ it or sixth is realeased.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
Not made up, applied RAW.....

When the Lord is removed due to damage, where is the ResOrb on the table? Right, it's off the table.

The rule is for the bearer and the unit he is in. If the bearer is removed from the table, he's no longer part of the unit. The Orb is no longer on the table thus cannot affect the remaining models of the unit.

The applied RAW; is the Plain text, which is what I posted.

Right; off the table, which does not matter; when is the res orb used? Right, often when the bearer is off the table.

The rule is not for the unit he is in; it is for "his unit", since he was attached to the unit, and EL already deals with a unit the bearerwas attached to; his unit is pretty well defined with him just being an EL token.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
Absolutely not! Show me where in the rules a piece of wargear is usable when the model has been removed from the table? The ResOrb rule makes no such claim. The rule states the bearer (and the unit he is in) gains a 4+ RP roll instead of a 5+. Since the affect of the Orb is not stated to continue beyond the grave of the bearer, the Orb must be on the table to be effective.

I'm with TGA on this one. The Res Orb rule is somewhat broken. It works just fine for the unit the Lord is attached to while the Lord is alive. Unless the rule or FAQ/Errata specifically allows it Wargear does not function when it is not present on the table.

GW should have appended a line to the end of the Res Orb rule that allowed the bearer to make the 4+ save when it was removed as a casualty and replaced by a token.

-Yad

Yad wrote:I'm with TGA on this one. The Res Orb rule is somewhat broken. It works just fine for the unit the Lord is attached to while the Lord is alive. Unless the rule or FAQ/Errata specifically allows it Wargear does not function when it is not present on the table.

GW should have appended a line to the end of the Res Orb rule that allowed the bearer to make the 4+ save when it was removed as a casualty and replaced by a token.

-Yad

First: Where does it say wargear/rules must be on the table to function?

Second: Where does it say that the EL token is not the Character that was removed as a casualty, or that his gear/rules cease to function while he is awaiting the RP roll(which again would make both the phylactery and the res orb useless)?

Third: IF GW had put that line in it would do as you theorize, it would have the bearer roll for RP immediately.

Fourth(to TGA, et al):How do you propose to keep track of/separate the rp rolls of those unit members that Die prior to the bearer going down and those that died after? All RP rolls are done at once, the only RP rolls that get separated(at least dice-wise) are EL Tokens.

Stop trying to add to the plain text.

Stop trying to make up timings and Checks to be inserted for when the rule applies.

Just play with the Plain text because it is the only way it works.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Yad wrote:I'm with TGA on this one. The Res Orb rule is somewhat broken. It works just fine for the unit the Lord is attached to while the Lord is alive. Unless the rule or FAQ/Errata specifically allows it Wargear does not function when it is not present on the table.

GW should have appended a line to the end of the Res Orb rule that allowed the bearer to make the 4+ save when it was removed as a casualty and replaced by a token.

-Yad

Kommissar Kel wrote:First: Where does it say wargear/rules must be on the table to function?

Models exist in three states. In Reserve, on the 'battlefield' (i.e., in Play), and Out of Play. As far as Out of Play this can happen for a number of reasons, removed from play, removed as a casualty, etc. For certain pieces of wargear there are specific rules that allow them to function either in Play and/or in Reserve. But there are no rules that allows Wargear to function when the model is out of play. At least none that I'm currently aware of.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Second: Where does it say that the EL token is not the Character that was removed as a casualty, or that his gear/rules cease to function while he is awaiting the RP roll(which again would make both the phylactery and the res orb useless)?

The rules are very specific about defining a models type. You remove the model Necron Lord/Overlord of type Infantry (Character) and replace it with an Everliving token. One is not like the other.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Third: IF GW had put that line in it would do as you theorize, it would have the bearer roll for RP immediately.

Fourth(to TGA, et al):How do you propose to keep track of/separate the rp rolls of those unit members that Die prior to the bearer going down and those that died after? All RP rolls are done at once, the only RP rolls that get separated(at least dice-wise) are EL Tokens.

Is this really such a difficult thing to manage? With the into of the GK codex we've been introduced to resolving effects via randomization within a unit. This continues with the Necron codex. Why is this so hard for you?

-Yad

Where are the rules for the out of play removal of gear? And RP adds a fourth state of existence to the models at any rate: that of a token waiting for return to play.

No the token is a replacement of the model on-table; but it is still the same model; otherwise, as I have already said, Phylacteries and Res orbs never function.

Well considering that such a line does not exist Res orb bearers still roll for RP at the same time as all other models; there is nothing to manage.

And for the randomization of models; that is also not written into the res orb rules; so whether or not such a thing can exist matters little to the fact that it does not exist.

Nothing of the sort exists; the rules are plain and clear, why is this so hard for you?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Where are the rules for the out of play removal of gear? And RP adds a fourth state of existence to the models at any rate: that of a token waiting for return to play.

What? That doesn't make any sense. That of a token waiting for return to play? The model is removed from play and a token is put into play. Each token represents a model, but is in fact not that model. It does not have any wargear, any stats, etc.

Kommissar Kel wrote:No the token is a replacement of the model on-table; but it is still the same model; otherwise, as I have already said, Phylacteries and Res orbs never function.

See above, this makes no sense and is not represented in the rules.

Kommissar Kel wrote:Well considering that such a line does not exist Res orb bearers still roll for RP at the same time as all other models; there is nothing to manage.

No, what we have is an inherent conflict in the RAW. I do think that the RAI is that the bearer of the Orb would benefit from the 4+ save when it is removed as a casualty. I don't have any hard rules to back that up. It's just how I feel the rule should be played.

Kommissar Kel wrote:And for the randomization of models; that is also not written into the res orb rules; so whether or not such a thing can exist matters little to the fact that it does not exist.

Nothing of the sort exists; the rules are plain and clear, why is this so hard for you?

You completely missed the point I was making. This was in response to your question regarding the tracking of RP/EL tokens. My take on this is that GW has no trouble introducing sometimes complex rules mechanics into the system. As to my, "why is this so hard for you" comment. I apologize that you took this personally. That wasn't my intent. A better wording would have been, "why would this 'token tracking' mechanic be hard for you"? Not, why is this point so difficult for you to understand?

-Yad

KK, I think they are basing their answer off the following question from the BGB FAQ:
Q: Do any upgrades or special rules a vehicle has cease
to work once it is destroyed? (p61)
A: Yes. For example if a Land Raider Crusader is
destroyed by ramming an enemy vehicle, its embarked
passengers would not be able to launch an assault in
the ensuing Assault phase as they would no longer
benefit from its Assault Vehicle special rule.

The rule here is extremely simple.

"The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols on a 4+"

To deny the bearer (and his unit) the use of the orb is utter nonsense when it clearly states he benefits.

Another thing to add to the FAQ for the next GT I guess, but hopefully GW or INAT will take care of it by then.)

Yep, it is stunningly clear. As soon as you attach the lord to the unit, that unit has a 4+ RP.

Really not difficult

The rules say what they say; nothing more, Res orb triggers when RP rolls are made, not any time before.

The phylactery cannot do anything if it's rules do not come into play while the model is replaced by a token(since it does what it does after the first passing of RP, and before returning the model to play, since it returns with d3 wounds).

You cannot have the Phylactory effecting the model as a token, and the res orb not effecting the model and his unit while the model is a token.

You are adding to the RAW to change them because you feel the rules should function differently.

I did not miss the point you were making; the facts are the rules say to do only 1 thing, you are trying to change the rules and over-complicate what they say because you are not happy with them.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, it is stunningly clear. As soon as you attach the lord to the unit, that unit has a 4+ RP so long as the Lord is in play.

Really not difficult

Fixed. Poor rules writing by GW. RAI obvious. RAW broken.

-Yad


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kommissar Kel wrote:The rules say what they say; nothing more, Res orb triggers when RP rolls are made, not any time before.

The phylactery cannot do anything if it's rules do not come into play while the model is replaced by a token(since it does what it does after the first passing of RP, and before returning the model to play, since it returns with d3 wounds).

You cannot have the Phylactory effecting the model as a token, and the res orb not effecting the model and his unit while the model is a token.

You are adding to the RAW to change them because you feel the rules should function differently.

I did not miss the point you were making; the facts are the rules say to do only 1 thing, you are trying to change the rules and over-complicate what they say because you are not happy with them.

No I'm not adding to the RAW. I'm reading it through and bringing it to its logical end. I haven't inserted or changed any wording in the RAW. Because Wargear doesn't function when a model is removed from play (no matter how it happens) the Res Orb rule is screwed. There's no way I'd force a Necron player to play it this way. It's patently obvious how it should be played.

This is YMDC where we often pick apart the RAW till you're ready to break out the rusty spoons. It's a useful exercise that I have fun taking part in.

Yet nothing requires the lord to be in play.

Anything not on the board or in reserves does not exist. This is a very solid fact in the game rules. It's mentioned several times in phrases such as "every player knows the board edge is the end of the world" and "remove from play"

There is NO wargear that functions when the model is not 'in play' There are pieces that function even if the model is in reserve, but NOTHING out of play can interfere with the game.

Secondly, and something a lot of people are overlooking, is that necron models with RP that die are removed as a casualty. The second the model reaches the remove casualties step of fighting it is removed from play. It ceases to exist.

To quote RP "Return one of the slain models to play"

Any powers, abilities, or effects a slain model has do not function while slain. This is pretty obvious.

To put this into perspective, lets suppose an IC joins a unit. There are several powers that say "the IC and his unit" It is generally accepted that these powers cease to function once that model is dead or has left the unit. Otherwise you generate all sorts of questions like "if the IC joins a different unit, which one counts for 'his' unit? Both of them? The one he is currently in? or the one he left?"

Well the first one is obviously wrong. You can't be in two units at once. The second one proves the "everyone gets a 4+" theory incorrect as it means that when the model is removed from the unit, powers phrased "and his unit" cease to function. Lastly, the third one would support your claim, however how is a unit his when he is not in it? This is a logical fallacy.

An IC leaving a unit is no different than any other model dieing.

Ergo, there are only two viable readings of the rules:

1. The res orb never functions for the lord, and only functions when the lord is on the table when other members of his unit are taking their RP rolls.

2. The orb's effect is triggered when the models die, and persists until the RP rolls are made. This allows the lord the use of its own wargear, and generally makes more practical sense.

Let's look at those options.

Number one. So the 30+ point piece of wargear that explicitly infers that the lord gains the benefit of it, doesn't function according to the rules (note that the wording of the wargear is not specific enough to negate the rules in the BRB).

Number two. It does not conflict with the wording of the wargear, it functions 100% according to the BRB rules, and does not conflict with any wording.

Let's see here... which one of these makes more sense...

If you get to add whatever verbiage you like to change the res Orb to how you want it to work that is fine; I get to add the following:

For every model returned to play via the Ressurection orb, all enemy units on the table suffer 20 S10, AP1 hits with the entropic strike special rule.

Does that sound fair? Now you get to ignore the res orb's function for it's primary benefactor; and I get to wipe your entire army after 2-3 returns.

Adding Verbiage changes the rule; the verbiage does not exist, therefore no such requirements are in place.

That is because it is VAGUE. That wording alone is not sufficient enough to play the piece of wargear. You MUST imply something. This is true for both your argument and mine.

In my case I imply that the presence of a res orb is checked when the models die. This is backed up by past history of the item, as well as a logical assumption based on the phrasing of the item with respect to its point cost.

In your case, you assume that the piece of wargear does not need to be present at the time of death, and that the simple act of buying the piece of wargear confers the 4+ to each and every model that is in the unit.

One of these is a smaller leap of faith than the other.

On that note, I'd like you to explain how a unit of immortals with a lord that has a res orb functions when it interacts with an Overlord.

Specifically, the following situations.

Overlord is joined to the unit at deployment:
Overlord dies when the lord is alive. Overlord dies in the same combat phase as the lord, but dies after the lord has died.

Overlord joins the unit after deployment but while the Lord is still alive:
Overlord dies when the lord is alive. Overlord dies in the same combat phase as the lord, but dies after the lord has died.

Overlord joins the unit after deployment but after the lord is already dead and gone:
Overlord dies.

Because right now, your logic dictates that in EVERY one of those situations the OL gets to roll RP at a 4+ The only way for you to counter this is to use situational logic, which MUST be inferred since there is absolutely no situational logic in the rules for the wargear.


Allow me to elaborate on each of those scenarios.

Scenario 1: The overlord is joined to the unit at deployment. It is obviously part of the lords unit, and as such should gain benefit of the res orb. Using your logic, this means that the overlord still gains the benefit of the orb in both cases.

Scenario 2: The overlord joins the unit later on. It is still obviously part of the unit and as such the same logic as above applies.

Scenario 3: The overlord has joined the unit the lord was a part of. In your logic, the wargear has magically made this unit a 4+ RP unit, regardless of whether the lord is present or not.

Don't try to argue that it doesn't. You can't. Anything you say will contradict the above. If you state that the lord is not present and thus the overlord does not gain the effects of the wargear, you have conceded the point to me because that is EXACTLY how my interpretation of the rules is played.

For example, if you claim that the lord must be present to confer the bonus when the IC joins, you must also admit that the lord must be present to confer the bonus to the immortals, yet the lord is explicitly removed as a casualty before the RP rolls on the immortals/lord/overlord are ever made.

In order for you to state this works for when the immortals die in the same phase, but doesn't when the overlord joins later requires you to imply something about the rules for the res orb as there is no specific ruling stating that it functions like this.

Finally, you could state that the overlord does indeed gain the benefits of the res orb even after the lord has died, but this contradicts your statement on page 1. Specifically, "no this one is correct; the Lord, or his EL token are not Present at rolling for RP; therefore no 4+ RP. "

Your move.

How is "The bearer of the resurrection orb(and his unit) pass reanimation protocol rolls on a 4+." vague?

That is just about the single most straight forward and clear rules GW has ever written.

Does the model bear a Res orb?

Is the model or a unit he is in making an RP roll?

If the answer is yes to both of these; then the roll is on a 4+.

There really is nothing else to this rule.

If you want to add extra wording to change the rule from those 2 checks; then I get to add the wording that any passed RP rolls equal an automatic win, because at this point we are both just making up rules to change how the res Orb works.

... Did you even read any of this thread...

Last time I'm saying this...

10 warriors + lord /w orb.

2 warriors and lord die in first volley of combat.

3 more warriors die in a second volley of fire same phase.

THE LORD IS ALREADY OFF THE TABLE WHEN RP IS ROLLED.

This is quite explicitly stated in the RP rules. No where in the res orb rules does it cover this situation. you must infer the rules from the situation.

If you argue that the everliving counter has anything to do with it, you are also still inferring something about the way res orb works because no where in it does it say "the lord or his ever living counter" it says "the lord" as in that model. You know, the one that is not on the board anymore. In fact, the only situation where you do not have to infer anything is when the lord itself does not die.

It's perhaps one of the most vague things GW has ever put into a codex. It is so amazingly simply worded that it does not provide enough detail as to its function.

I would like to point out, once again, that if you follow res orb to the letter it will never work for the lord. The lord (and thus the res orb) are already off the table (removed as casualty) before RP is ever rolled for.

NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

See I can type in all caps too.

You are still making up rules.]

Res orb does not care when the lord or any of the other models died.

All it cares about is that the lord has a Res Orb(is the bearer), and that you are making RP ro9lls for that lord and/or his unit.

You keep making up and adding rules that you feel are somehow inferred based on rules that do not exist.

The Ever-living counter is the lord; if it is not, then does that mean I can bring a basic 35-point lord, let him take the first casualty; then replace him with Imotekh the Stormlord or a fully kitted Destroyer lord? how about a fully kited Harbinger of some sort?

If Everliving tokens are not their model, then none of the placement rules for everliving function either.

RP and EL tokens, and the models they return are the same models that had died, therefore the Tokens are also representative of the same models that died and are a place-holder-state between being in play and removed from play(as a casualty)

Also it does not say "the lord"; it says "the Bearer", and "the Bearer" is a model that benefits from the better RP roll, which can only happen if "the Bearer" is a token at the time.

Kommissar Kel wrote:NONE OF THAT MATTERS.

See I can type in all caps too.

You are still making up rules.]

Res orb does not care when the lord or any of the other models died.

All it cares about is that the lord has a Res Orb(is the bearer), and that you are making RP ro9lls for that lord and/or his unit.

You keep making up and adding rules that you feel are somehow inferred based on rules that do not exist.

The Ever-living counter is the lord; if it is not, then does that mean I can bring a basic 35-point lord, let him take the first casualty; then replace him with Imotekh the Stormlord or a fully kitted Destroyer lord? how about a fully kited Harbinger of some sort?

If Everliving tokens are not their model, then none of the placement rules for everliving function either.

RP and EL tokens, and the models they return are the same models that had died, therefore the Tokens are also representative of the same models that died and are a place-holder-state between being in play and removed from play(as a casualty)

Also it does not say "the lord"; it says "the Bearer", and "the Bearer" is a model that benefits from the better RP roll, which can only happen if "the Bearer" is a token at the time.

My point is so are you.

The orb does not exist when the rolls are made. The token is NOT a model. It is not the lord that had the orb. It is a die or a bead, or a piece of plastic. It simply represents the need to make a roll.
It also mentions nothing about not caring about if they are alive or dead. In fact it mentions nothing of the sort, therefor you default to the preexisting rules that govern it. In this case the fact that models that are removed from play are gone.
You are also making up the fact that the unit of warriors is still "the lord's unit" even after the lord is off the board.

The lord was removed as a casualty, it is not on the board, and therefore neither is the res orb.

To answer your other question, the wording of RP states to return that specific model to play (it does not say 'any model' it says things like 'the model' and 'it' and uses words like return and 'one of the slain models'). It is quite obvious that it means the exact model that you took off initially.

I'm tired of repeating myself. You can play it however you want of course, but you have no rule backing whatsoever.

Kommissar Kel wrote:The rules say what they say; nothing more, Res orb triggers when RP rolls are made, not any time before.

Actually, that's not what the rules say. The rule says the bearer and the unit gain benefit from a 4+ RP roll. It DOESN'T state that when the model attempts an RP roll, the ResOrb comes into affect and grants a 4+ save. This factors into the notion when it "triggers", as in it doesn't its affect is granted while the bearer while the bear is alive.

Reread RP and EL. The models are removed from play as casualties and replaced with a counter. Removed from play. Off the table. Doesn't exist. The counter is used to determine if a model reanimates. If it does, it comes back into play.

You're suggesting wargear can function even if the model is removed from player as a casualty. This is patently wrong. If the model is removed from play it, and the wargear associated with the model, no longer exist in game terms.

Using your logic, once a Lord has joined a unit, the unit will forever benefit from the ResOrb long after the bearer is removed.

Keeping track of when the Orb is in affect is no more difficult now then with the old WBB rule. You just set aside those counters that are not affected by the Orb thus only get at 5+ instead of a 4+.

If you so strongly believe you are correct, provide the logic and backing rules that support your claim.

TGA, according to your logic, the bearer would never get the benefit of the rez orb (despite specifically being mentioned that it does).

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Actually, that's not what the rules say. The rule says the bearer and the unit gain benefit from a 4+ RP roll.

The exact quote is "The bearer of the ressurection orb (and his unit) PASS reanimation protocols on a 4+".


Not: gains the benefit, can pass, may pass, will pass, is elligible to pass etc. The present tense of the wording means that the orb gets activated on the RP roll.

Happyjew wrote:TGA, according to your logic, the bearer would never get the benefit of the rez orb (despite specifically being mentioned that it does).

Exactly the point. Hence why you MUST infer some additional ruling, otherwise the piece of wargear is self-contradictory.

Once this assumption is made, you then look to how you can logically play the rule with the least amount of deviation from the established rule. In this case, as close as you can get is to say that the orb is checked on death of the model instead of when the roll is taken. Any other addition/change to the rule is more complex than this. Occam's razor...

copper.talos wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Actually, that's not what the rules say. The rule says the bearer and the unit gain benefit from a 4+ RP roll.

The exact quote is "The bearer of the ressurection orb (and his unit) PASS reanimation protocols on a 4+".


Not: gains the benefit, can pass, may pass, will pass, is elligible to pass etc. The present tense of the wording means that the orb gets activated on the RP roll.

No. It means if the model is removed while the ResOrb is in range, the model passes the RP roll on the 4+. Note, the quoted rule doesn't state anything about being activated or the like, just the bearer and his unit pass RP rolls on a 4+. Nothing is "activated", it just happens.

What rule permits wargear to be used when it's not on the table?

So I stopped reading on the second page bout half way through lol because the argument is ridiculous IMO. Here's what I think not that anyone cares:

I hate playing against necrons n I would love to.see them rarely get back up on a 4+ but I say that if the Lord is attached to a unit.of warriors then that unit gets the 4+ save regardless of when he dies in that turn and here is why. Rules aside I think this is more a fluff situation. Res orb makes rp easier right? Well when the Lord dies among his unit he's replaced with a token right? The token is to make things easier.to remember. The Lord is actually lying there in pieces merely waiting to get put back together. It's not, where just because he dies he gets teleported miles n miles away where the orb can't work its actually lying there amongst the heap of dead Lord. Like I said I.HATE necrons but I feel like there is no reason they shouldn't get the bonus, unless they fall out of coherency and at that point it would obviously not work.

Just saying have some fun. Get mad at the.necrons cuz they.still.get back up pretty easily. Don't take away from the fluff because you want easier time.winning just suck it up and try a lil harder to murtilate them lol maybe hate them a little more? But the 4+ should be in effect unless the.Lord is straight up dead and failed his.get.back up rule and then he is actually removed from the battle. Not just placed aside for easy's sake.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:What rule permits wargear to be used when it's not on the table?

Well, I'm thinking you may have glossed over the obvious, but the rules in the new necron codex for the res orb do.)

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yet nothing requires the lord to be in play.

Nonsense. So you believe that Wargear can still be used or have an effect on models/units in play if the model the Wargear was bought for is removed from play? What requires the Lord to be in play is the fact that Wargear must be in play to be 'used'.

-Yad

Except nothing requires the wargear to be activated or used; it just simply "is"

The wargear in itself dictates that it can be used while not on the board.

Like I said the model isn't actually gone its just fixing itself and the tokens are used to try and keep things 'neat' but the orb is in fact chillin right there where the guy died! Also remember that I'm just talking out my butt here but the argument that it should work no matter what is pretty solid seeing as how enough people are saying it is straight up in the codex

Wolfnid420 wrote:Like I said the model isn't actually gone its just fixing itself and the tokens are used to try and keep things 'neat' but the orb is in fact chillin right there where the guy died! Also remember that I'm just talking out my butt here but the argument that it should work no matter what is pretty solid seeing as how enough people are saying it is straight up in the codex

There you are wrong. The model is removed from play. A counter is used to indicate how many models have been removed and eligible to roll for RP. There is nothing significant tying one counter to a model. A D6 can be used to keep track of the casualties. As could a slip of paper or similar method of keeping track of the number of casualties.

The dead bearer of the ResOrb is physically removed from play thus the bearer is no longer part of the unit, being dead and all. The ResOrb isn't even on the table to identify which unit is affected. The Necron Codex does NOT state the ResOrb works when the bearer isn't on the table.

Then contrary to Rez Orb rules, the bearer would NEVER get the benefit of the Rez Orb.

Happyjew wrote:Then contrary to Rez Orb rules, the bearer would NEVER get the benefit of the Rez Orb.

No so. The check for the benefit from the ResOrb is made when the model is removed from play. If there is a ResOrb in the unit prior to removing the model, the model benefits from a 4+ RP roll. If there is no ResOrb in the unit prior to removing the model, the model has the standard 5+ RP roll.

The bear of the ResOrb will always be in a unit with a ResOrb prior to being removed since a unit can have a single model, the bearer in this instance.

To say otherwise requires deviation from normal game play beyond that stated in the the Codex. You're suggesting the ResOrb wargear effect extends beyond removing a model from the table. This is not supported by the rules. Further, how long after the bearer is removed from game play does the ResOrb effect last? The rest of the phase? Turn? Game?

The key thing to remember, Necron models are removed from game play, all game play. Counters/markers are used to keep track of how many RP rolls are made. Successful passing of the RP roll mean returning a "slain model" back with its unit.

There is absolutely nothing that says you check when the model is removed and substituted with a counter. Nothing.

Making up rules, then using your made up rules to prove your point ?

TGA, Normal operations are as followed:
1. Suffer Wound
2. Take Save (if applicable)
3. If save fails, subtract 1 from Wound characteristic.
4. If Wound Characteristic = 0, remove model from play.

Necrons change step 4, and add additional steps:
4. If Wound characteristic = 0, replace model with token.
5. At the end of the phase, make RP rolls.
6. IF RP = pass, replace token with model, if RP = fail, remove token.

As it is, it's not until step 6, that the Lord with a rez orb would be removed. AFTER the RP rolls are made. If the Lord fails his RP roll, then (and only then) are the benefits of the rez orb lost.

Happyjew wrote:TGA, Normal operations are as followed:
1. Suffer Wound
2. Take Save (if applicable)
3. If save fails, subtract 1 from Wound characteristic.
4. If Wound Characteristic = 0, remove model from play.

Necrons change step 4, and add additional steps:
4. If Wound characteristic = 0, replace model with token.
5. At the end of the phase, make RP rolls.
6. IF RP = pass, replace token with model, if RP = fail, remove token.

As it is, it's not until step 6, that the Lord with a rez orb would be removed. AFTER the RP rolls are made. If the Lord fails his RP roll, then (and only then) are the benefits of the rez orb lost.

Not true. Reread RP: "If a model with the Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty there is a chance that it will self-repair and return to play at the end of the current phase." (Necron Codex, page 29, my emphasis) Thus, the slain model is removed from game play. At the end of the phase, there is a chance the model is returned to game play. Per the RP rule, the slain model doesn't exist until it is repaired and returned to game play.


Further, the model is not replaced with a counter/marker/token. Counters are placed next to the unit to indicate how many casualties are take. Also, counters are not replaced with a model.

The actual augmented sequence is:
4. If Wound characteristic = 0, remove model. Place one counter next to the unit to keep track of the number of models removed this phase.
5. At the end of the phase, make an RP roll for each counter next to the unit.
6. For each RP roll passed, return a model to the unit
7. Remove all counters

THAT is the sequence of events for RP. Counter have no relationship to the model beyond tracking when a model is removed from play in the phase. The slain bearer of the ResOrb is removed from the game. Period. There is no residual or latent effect of the Orb, it's no longer on the table. As I pointed out before, the check if the model is affected by the ResOrb is done when the model is removed from game play not when the RP roll is made.

The whole point of the rez orb is it functions when the model is off the board, you are going to get flak at a tournament if you try to pull what you're saying on someone.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:As I pointed out before, the check if the model is affected by the ResOrb is done when the model is removed from game play not when the RP roll is made.

No. The "check if the model is affected", can only be done when you do your Reanimation Protocol rolls. The only thing the Resurrection Orb cares about are Reanimation Protocol rolls. When you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer (and his unit), then they pass on a 4+. There is nothing more to it.

TGA - you are making up a "check" that does not exist in the rules.

bagtagger wrote:The whole point of the rez orb is it functions when the model is off the board, you are going to get flak at a tournament if you try to pull what you're saying on someone.

No it's not. The ResOrb is a piece of wargear, nothing more. Show me where in the rules wargear not on the table can affect game play.

ToBeWilly wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:As I pointed out before, the check if the model is affected by the ResOrb is done when the model is removed from game play not when the RP roll is made.

No. The "check if the model is affected", can only be done when you do your Reanimation Protocol rolls. The only thing the Resurrection Orb cares about are Reanimation Protocol rolls. When you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer (and his unit), then they pass on a 4+. There is nothing more to it.

Right. If the the bearer is no the table the ResOrb works. If bearer is not on the table it doesn't work. Pure and simple.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - you are making up a "check" that does not exist in the rules.

Nope. It's by RAW. It's the only way the gear works.

So, by all y'all's interpretation, a unit with a ResOrb will ALWAYS benefit from the Orb well after the bearer is removed from play. So, if the bearer is removed from play in the first turn the unit benefits from the Orb for the rest of the entire game. Right, try playing that at tournament and see how much flak you get.

"Nope. It's by RAW. "

Then you can find the rule stating to check for the presence of the item then? Ah wait, no such rule exists. So, not RAW then....

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Nope. It's by RAW. "

Then you can find the rule stating to check for the presence of the item then? Ah wait, no such rule exists. So, not RAW then....

TGA should have been a bit more clear in his last sentance. By check I think he meant that other models check to see if a Res Orb is present in their unit at the end of the phase. If the Res Orb has been removed from play before the end of the phase then no 4+. To my recollection, at no time has wargear ever been allowed to function once it has been removed from play. From a RAW perspective the FAQ needs to clear that contradiction. From a RAI, I'm completely fine with allowing the Lord to gain the 4+ even when he's removed from play.

-Yad

Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

You keep claiming that someone needs to find a rule that wargear on infantry continues to work when the model is no longer on the table.

I am still waiting for the rule that says it doesn't.

Also; Transport rules do state that wargear/special rules continue to function while models are off the table: When the unit is embarked, the wargear/special rule's effects are measured from the hull; The model is not in play, and the gear/rule continues to function.

EL has a token that is for all intents and purposes the killed model, it is where the radius for the model's return must be measured from, and is the same model that was killed there, revived, when the RP roll is passed.

Furthermore no one has addressed the Phylactery; which has the same wording of functioning via a RP roll, and must come into effect while the model is off the table(since, again it returns the model with D3 wounds instead of 1).

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

Right. But the RP rule also states this happens when the the model is removed from play, thus not on the table.

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

That's not what the rule states. The rule states: "The bearer (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+." (Necron codex, page 82). Nothing about when the orb effect affects the unit, thus, the effect only happens when the Orb is on the table when models are removed from play.

You keep claiming that someone needs to find a rule that wargear on infantry continues to work when the model is no longer on the table.

I am still waiting for the rule that says it doesn't.

You're making the claim thus the burden of proof is yours.

Also; Transport rules do state that wargear/special rules continue to function while models are off the table: When the unit is embarked, the wargear/special rule's effects are measured from the hull; The model is not in play, and the gear/rule continues to function.

Correct. Regardless of the physical location of the model, the game rules abstract the notion the model(s) are still on the table as being in the transport. I.e., the models can suffer wounds, use powers, wargear etc.

EL has a token that is for all intents and purposes the killed model, it is where the radius for the model's return must be measured from, and is the same model that was killed there, revived, when the RP roll is passed.

Complete false. The EL counter serves two rolls, to keep track of which RP rolls are from EL models and to serve to mark where the EL model was located when removed from play. That's it. It has no other relation to the model. It doesn't represent the model, it doesn't function as the model, it's just a simple counter/marker.

Furthermore no one has addressed the Phylactery; which has the same wording of functioning via a RP roll, and must come into effect while the model is off the table(since, again it returns the model with D3 wounds instead of 1).

It hasn't been addressed because no one mentioned it. Again, the model has the wargear when it's removed from game play. This grants the possibility of self-repairing with more than one wound. Nothing states this ability is activated AFTER the model is removed from play.

Remember, the very first sentence of the RP rule states "If a model with Reanimation Protocols rule is removed as a casualty...."(Necron Codex, page 29). The model is removed as a casualty, thus is no longer part of the game.

Your still making stuff up. Then using it prove your points.

It's not RAW is you have to invent a check that happens when the model is removed. RP doesn't happen then, it happens at the end of the phase.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

Indeed, thought about this myself, though it didn't provide a clear answer.

Before he has returned (as in, before he has been placed back on the table), is he considered to be part of that unit? Is the EL rule an indication of his retained attachment, or rather a re-attachment?

Not trying to make a point here, it's a question I'm actually putting forward, as for me this is the clincher situation - whether the unit benefits from the Res Orb, while the bearer is "not in play" during death, particularly in that moment in time RP rolls are made.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:

Kharrak wrote:Quick question... if the bearer of the Resorb is killed, and the unit he was with remains alive... is he still considered part of that unit while he is "dead"?

Regardless if the Rez Orb works for the lord if he is dead or not, if he is not considered part of the unit when dead, they do not gain the bonus it applies while the lord is not in play.

According to EL, if he was part of the unit when he died, he is to be returned to the unit using the normal RP rules.

Right. But the RP rule also states this happens when the the model is removed from play, thus not on the table.

Again, So?

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

That's not what the rule states. The rule states: "The bearer (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+." (Necron codex, page 82). Nothing about when the orb effect affects the unit, thus, the effect only happens when the Orb is on the table when models are removed from play.

Well, yes, it does. It affects the bearer and his unit when making RP rolls(since it's only effect is for those rolls to be passed on a 4+)

You keep claiming that someone needs to find a rule that wargear on infantry continues to work when the model is no longer on the table.

I am still waiting for the rule that says it doesn't.

You're making the claim thus the burden of proof is yours.

No you are making the claim that there is a rule; there is no such rule, the burden is on you and your claim that there is a rule stating anything of the effect.

I need to leave, I will finish when I get home.

Kommissar Kel wrote:

And TGA; RAW is what is, well, written; that the res orb does what it does when the bearer(who you are claiming it will not work for) and his unit(the unit the bearer is attached to) is making an RP roll(which EL tokens do as well).

That's not what the rule states. The rule states: "The bearer (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+." (Necron codex, page 82). Nothing about when the orb effect affects the unit, thus, the effect only happens when the Orb is on the table when models are removed from play.

Well, yes, it does. It affects the bearer and his unit when making RP rolls(since it's only effect is for those rolls to be passed on a 4+)

TGA, No one is claiming that (for example) if the Lord is killed in turn 1 and fails his EL/RP roll that the unit he was with still benefits from the Orb. We are claiming that while the Lord is alive/EL token the unit he is with gains hte benefits of the Orb.

Happyjew wrote:TGA, No one is claiming that (for example) if the Lord is killed in turn 1 and fails his EL/RP roll that the unit he was with still benefits from the Orb. We are claiming that while the Lord is alive/EL token the unit he is with gains hte benefits of the Orb.

Two problems with that assumption: 1) The bearer is removed from game play prior to the RP roll (again, reread the first sentence of the RP rule, it states if the model is removed as a casualty) thus all the bearer's wargear is of the table, including the ResOrb; 2) The El token has absolutely no representation of the removed EL model beyond the indicating where the EL model was when it was removed. A successful RP roll means the model is returned to the unit.

No ResOrb on the table means no benefit from it. The effect of the ResOrb happens PRIOR to the model being removed as a casualty.

This is no different from how the Orb was used in the previous codex: the ResOrb effect is checked prior the model going down.

....and there are no rules to support that wording, so youre now just maaking things up

Did TGA not buy the new codex, and is just argueing from the old one? That might explain a lot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:....and there are no rules to support that wording, so youre now just maaking things up

Really. You haven't stepped up with any supporting your argument. I'm stating the rules as written. What are you stating?

mikhaila wrote:Did TGA not buy the new codex, and is just argueing from the old one? That might explain a lot.

Nope. The rules from the new codex are similar to the new. How is it the wording from the new codex, similar to the previous codex, is now radically changes the way the BRB is interpreted. I'm asking for proof and yet no one is providing it. Silly me for asking such a simple request.

Provide any shred of evidence my argument is wrong. Anything?

Happyjew wrote: We are claiming that while the Lord is alive/EL token the unit he is with gains hte benefits of the Orb.

Ah, that's an interesting perspective, though I'm not sure I agree with it. But to boil it down, you're saying that a EL token represents that a dead Res Orb bearer is still part of that unit?

Reading the RP rules, it states that the counters serve no other purpouse but to remind the necron player how many casualties were taken, and thus show how many dice must be rolled.

Furthermore, EL wording does seem to strongly suggest that the Res Orb bearer is returned to a unit, not that he was always attached to that unit. He is "returned to play, with a single Wound, in coherency with that unit".

It doesn't seem that he is specifically returned to that unit, but instead being placed in coherency to that unit - in that if he is places in such a way where he is in coherency of two or more friendly units, the owning player can decide which unit he joins. As such, you can actually hop the guy from one unit to another.

As such, I'm not seeing the justification for the EL unit counting as still being part of the unit he was, while he was dead.

EDIT: Just a note (again), I'm not arguing whether or not the bearer himself gets the improved roll thanks to res orb when he's dead. I'm just interested if the unit he was with still gets the improved roll while he has been killed.

"Really. You haven't stepped up with any supporting your argument. I'm stating the rules as written. What are you stating? "
So then actually provide the RAW that states you perform the check you claim needs to be made. Page and paragraph please.

Youve claimed "RAW" a few times now but have crucially yet to actually give any.

@Kharrak: that was the best way I could think to explain what people were saying, since the rez orb functions when you roll RP, if the EL token didn't have the rez orb, then there is no rez orb on the table, and the bearer and unit would not get to use it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Really. You haven't stepped up with any supporting your argument. I'm stating the rules as written. What are you stating? "
So then actually provide the RAW that states you perform the check you claim needs to be made. Page and paragraph please.

Youve claimed "RAW" a few times now but have crucially yet to actually give any.

Quit deflecting and prove your point. Show how wargear not on the table is effective. You need to show that.

Happyjew wrote:@Kharrak: that was the best way I could think to explain what people were saying, since the rez orb functions when you roll RP, if the EL token didn't have the rez orb, then there is no rez orb on the table, and the bearer and unit would not get to use it.

Again, the EL counter/marker is just used to keep track of EL models that have been REMOVED from game play. Removed, meaning, not in play, no longer able to be used,

So, staying within the confines of the RAW, things like wargear, powers, abilities, weapons, etc., can't be used if the model is not on the table unless a rule explicitly states otherwise. The ResOrb makes no such claim therefor it's only effective when on the table.

Now, the ResOrb rule states the bear and the unit its with benefit from a 4+ RP roll instead of the normal 5+. It makes no statement about being activated, it makes no claim its affect happens at the RP roll, and no claims it functions regardless of the bearer being on the table or not. It just make a blanket statement the bearer and its unit benefit from the Orb.

So, the ResOrb is wargear that has continually functions. The player doesn't activate it, there is no roll to determine if the Orb worked, it always work. Thus, like the vast majority of the wargear in the game, the bearer must be on the table for the army to benefit from the affect of the Orb.

So, when the bearer is removed from play there is no longer a ResOrb on the table. Being removed from play also removes him from the unit. No bearer, no associated unit, no ResOrb, no ResOrb effect. This mean the remaining models in the unit do not benefit from the, now removed, ResOrb.

So, if the ResOrb is treated like most any other piece of wargear (since its rule makes not other such claim), it benefits the army only when on the table and only affects the bearer and the unit its with.

What if the bearer of the ResOrb leaves the unit previously joined. Does the previous unit still benefit from the ResOrb? No. The rules state the Orb only affects the bearer and the unit it joined. Therefor, the time to check for the affect of the ResOrb is when the model is removed from play: if the ResOrb is part of the unit (bearer or the unit its with) when removed, the model benefits from a 4+ RP roll, otherwise, the model gets the standard 5+ RP roll.

And thus would never benefit the bearer. When does Rez Orb come into play? When you make RP rolls. When do you make RP rolls? At the end of the phase. Who benefits from the Rez Orb? The bearer and his unit (who would only benefit if they are RP/EL tokens).

Happyjew wrote:And thus would never benefit the bearer. When does Rez Orb come into play? When you make RP rolls. When do you make RP rolls? At the end of the phase. Who benefits from the Rez Orb? The bearer and his unit (who would only benefit if they are RP/EL tokens).

The counters/markers/tokens are used to determine the number of RP rolls to be made and potentially which type of model to rejoin game play. The counters/markers/tokens are NOT a representation or delegation or replacement of the models removed from game play.

Thus, if the bearer is removed from game play, there is no ResOrb to by used when the bearer's RP roll is made. The effect of the ResOrb affected the bearer at the time of removal.

So, if models are removed AFTER the bearer is removed, those models do NOT benefit from the ResOrb since the Orb is NOT on the table.

Hasn't it occurred to you that since Necrons have the unique ability to self repair, they have unique wargears that activate at the time of self repair? Prior examples of how wargear work, on such a unique case are not that useful.

I can't believe this is still going...

Simple logical debate rules people.

Fact: Res Orb's rule is vague.
Fact: There is a contradiction between what Res Orb does (change RP to a 4+) and when it works (supposedly after the model has died).

Fact: Both the BRB FAQ and several Codex FAQs have stated that a power must be active at the time of use in order for it to function.

Fact: RP/EL order of operations is as follows: Model suffers and unsaved wound -> Model is removed from play as a casualty -> Some form of accumulator is increased (be it a stack of coins, a die, etc.)

There are direct rule references that state all of the above plainly. I am not going to bother listing them as they've all been listed in this thread previously.

Problem: The res orb does not exist when RP rolls are made if the model carrying it is removed from play (see RP/EL order of operations).

Self-contradiction: The Lord, according to RAW, may never benefit from his own Res Orb as the Orb is not on the table when RP/EL is rolled (see RP/EL order of operations and when a power must be active).

This obviously causes an issue because you can't self-contradict within a single ruling (logical fallacy).

There are two arguments to the answer to this problem.

Argument 1: The EL token counts as the Necron Lord w/ Res Orb.

Argument 2: The Res Orb is checked when the model dies, and influences the later RP roll.



Let's look at the list of assumptions (because that is what BOTH sides are making) and look at which is more logical.


Argument 1: In order for this to function, you must assume that the model is still affecting the field of play after it has been removed as a casualty. Note the wording is "The Lord and his unit" it does not say "The lord or his Ever Living Counter and the unit"

In this situation, you are allowing for a system whereby wargear choices continue to effect a unit until the end of the phase. The issue with this assumption is that you must make it explicit to the res orb. If you did not, that means that other wargear that provide similar benefits (say a BA's blood chalice) will, by precedent, also function till the end of the phase even if the model is down.

Let me restate that... The assumption to make this argument work is that a piece of wargear may continue to function regardless of whether it's associated model is on the field or not.

Does this not sound completely illogical? You are assuming something that generates an effect is still generating the effect even after that something has been removed from existence.


Argument 2: In order for this to function, you must assume that the "reanimation protocols" power begins the second the model is removed as a casualty. In this case, since the power triggers as the model dies, the res orb is activated simultaneously with the models removal, and thus provides all the incoming counters a 4+ save instead of the usual. To elaborate, all the models that die to a given single volley of fire (or a single Initiative value of attacks) are removed together at the same time. Therefore their RP rules trigger at the same time, and by the assumption made in this argument gain the power of the res orb just as it leaves the field of play.

Doesn't that sound a bit more plausible that the piece of wargear that helps repair them triggers the moment they die?


Let me reiterate a few points because people keep missing them (even though I've been saying them for 4 pages now)...

EVERYONE IS ASSUMING THINGS
Yes, even you. The wording of the wargear is not sufficient enough to allow for a definitive ruling. Therefore, any argument made that includes a ruling as to how it functions exactly is assuming something.


The question is which of the assumptions is a smaller leap of faith? The model affecting the field of battle after it's died, or the wargear triggering as the model dies instead of at the end of the phase?

I will leave you with a final tidbit. If a model providing a unit with something like re-rolls to hit is killed at I6 in close combat, the rest of the unit that attacks at I4 does not get re-rolls to hit (power is not active when the models attack.). As far as I know, this is a pretty obvious and standard way of playing that most people agree on, yes?

My final question to those of you who are still arguing this is how is the RP/Res Orb situation any different?

Two points I would like to bring up in this debate. First, you keep asking for an example of an item of wargear or a special rule that continues to function after the character owning/granting the rule dies. Here's one potential scenario. A Dark Eldar Haemonculi joins a unit of Wyches, granting the unit a Pain Token through "Share the Pain". In the following turn, the Haemonculi leaves the unit, and the owning player decides to leave the pain token with the Wyches, stripping it from the Haemonculus. Two seconds later, a LasCannon shot blows off the Haemonculi's head.

Does the Wych unit continue to benefit from the Pain Token granted to them by the Haemonculi?

Second: Why is everyone assuming "Ever-Living" and "Reanimation Protocols" are the same thing? While its true that they function almost the same, the wording of the "Ever-Living" rule states:

"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to this unit. Instead, place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

The way it reads to me is that Ever-Living is SIMILAR to RP, but it is most definitely NOT Reanimation Protocols, in which case this entire argument is pointless. The Resurrection Orb SPECIFICALLY states it works only on Reanimation Protocols. Nowhere in the item description does it say it works on Ever-Living.

Now, each of the Necron Characters has both Ever-Living AND Reanimation Protocols listed as skills, so that tends toward the two skills being completely separate, even if they accomplish the same goal. Unfortunately for the Necron Lord, Ever-living SPECIFICALLY states that you DON'T get to use Reanimation Protocols.

"do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to this unit. Instead, place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play."

Rules as Written, and without adding anything in at all, the Necron Lord comes back on a 5+.

Zarry

So, as it stands, it's a moot rule regardless... which needs to be FAQ'd to be clearly understood, and seemingly would otherwise result in constant arguments over the same thing over and over again

Until the FAQ surfaces, I suppose I'll play it that the res orb bearer always gets the 4+, and the unit only gets the 4+ if the res orb is on the table when RP is rolled.

Or, if that results in too many arguments, I don't overly mind just letting everyone have 4+ until the bearer fails his EL. I don't necessarily agree with it, but in such a case it should just result in happier and smoother games.

@zarryiosiad
If what you are saying is true then the orb never works on characters ever. Res Orb wording specifically says that the bearer, which is always a character, roll RP on 4+. So either you or Matt Ward is wrong. I'll go with Matt Ward.

wait copper, I'm confused. Are you saying Matt Ward is "gasp" wrong? Then again the necrons did get all hunky dorey with some Space Marines...

copper.talos wrote:@zarryiosiad
If what you are saying is true then the orb never works on characters ever. Res Orb wording specifically says that the bearer, which is always a character, roll RP on 4+. So either you or Matt Ward is wrong. I'll go with Matt Ward.

You're arguing the wrong thing here, Talos. I completely agree with you that the Resurrection Orb wording specifically says "The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+". Unfortunately, it does NOT say, "The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols AND Ever-Living rolls on a 4+". Do the Rules as Intended support your belief that the Resurrection Orb works on the Lord? Absolutely. Clearly, Ever-Living is SUPPOSED to be the same thing as the Reanimation Protocols. Unfortunately, the Rules as Written clearly state it is NOT the same thing, and therefore the orb (which only works for Reanimation Protocols and NOT Ever-Living) should not work on models with Ever-Living.

I have no horse in this race, guys. I play Tyranids. But after reading four pages of "RAI/RAW" debates, where people are nitpicking on a single word or turn of phrase, I just wanted to point out that all of you have been reading more into the description than you should have been. I agree with the posters who say the rule is badly written. This should have been caught long before the book went to press, and only a FAQ is going to clear it up. But I think I've come up with a pretty strong argument as to why the Lord will always have a 5+, despite the description of the Resurrection Orb. It's right there in the wording.

Zarry

@happyjew
I meant that Ward was right! Sorry for the confusion. Sometimes my english fail me...

@Zarryiosiad
so why would the resorb ever mention the bearer then?
EL is rolled just as you would RP. That means that anything that affects RP affects EL too.

copper.talos wrote:@Zarryiosiad
so why would the res orb ever mention the bearer then?
EL is rolled just as you would RP. That means that anything that affects RP affects EL too.

Because GW made a mistake in the wording. The assumption is that players would be smart enough to realize Reanimation Protocols are the same thing as Ever-Living, and that Ever-Living is simply an enhanced version of Reanimation Protocols. Unfortunately, they got sloppy. Not only do they not clear that up in the description of Ever-Living, they went one step further and made Ever-Living REPLACE Reanimation Protocols. The actual wording is so poorly thought out that what they intended isn't what they ended up with.

You cannot assume anything in this game: players want (and deserve) to have everything be clearly spelled out to avoid arguments such as these. In the Tournament scene, RAI is ALWAYS trumped by RAW, unless a FAQ specifically clears up the problem. Until such time, RAW says the Resurrection Orb works only on Reanimation Protocols, even though Lords are clearly mentioned. Unfortunately, Lords do not use RP to get back up again--they use Ever-Living. Simple.

Zarry

So how would you interpret: "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter"?
Maybe it means the way you pick up dice and throw them to the table?

Anyway this is a non-issue, especially for me. I play mostly with competitive 25+ year-olds that don't want to ruin games on such arguments.

copper.talos wrote:So how would you interpret: "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter"?
Maybe it means the way you pick up dice and throw them to the table?

The words "just as you would" in your own quote means it is almost the same thing, but not quite, or they would have said "At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, which is a Reanimation Protocols counter in all respects".

Zarry

TGA - no, you need to prove your point. Its hard* to prove a negative, so you must prove the positive restriction.

Prove it or quit claiming it.

*yes, I am aware of exactly how "hard" it is, being a maths grad...

@zarry
Any insult you might have seen in my post, was unintentional. I'll edit it to make it more neutral.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - no, you need to prove your point. Its hard* to prove a negative, so you must prove the positive restriction.

Prove it or quit claiming it.

*yes, I am aware of exactly how "hard" it is, being a maths grad...

Wait. You stated wargear is affective when not on the table. It's the basis of your entire argument. I'm asking you to prove that point.

Im asking yiu to prove your point, which is entirely the purpose of this thread.

Youvare creating a ruke, this "check", entirely out of thin air and cliaming RAW. When asked to supply some actual rules, instead of doing so yiu divert by asking others to prove their case.

Classic diversionary tactics from you.

Zarryiosiad wrote:Two points I would like to bring up in this debate. First, you keep asking for an example of an item of wargear or a special rule that continues to function after the character owning/granting the rule dies. Here's one potential scenario. A Dark Eldar Haemonculi joins a unit of Wyches, granting the unit a Pain Token through "Share the Pain". In the following turn, the Haemonculi leaves the unit, and the owning player decides to leave the pain token with the Wyches, stripping it from the Haemonculus. Two seconds later, a LasCannon shot blows off the Haemonculi's head.

Does the Wych unit continue to benefit from the Pain Token granted to them by the Haemonculi?

Pick a different example as pain tokens are covered on page 25 of the Dark Eldar codex and it states the player may divvy up the pain tokens as he see fit when an IC leaves the unit. In your example, the unit has all the pain tokens regardless of what happens to the Haemonculi.

Second: Why is everyone assuming "Ever-Living" and "Reanimation Protocols" are the same thing? While its true that they function almost the same, the wording of the "Ever-Living" rule states:

"If a model with this special rule is removed as a casualty, do not add a Reanimation Protocols counter to this unit. Instead, place an Ever-Living counter where the model was removed from play. At the end of the phase, roll for this counter, just as you would for a Reanimation Protocols counter."

The way it reads to me is that Ever-Living is SIMILAR to RP, but it is most definitely NOT Reanimation Protocols, in which case this entire argument is pointless. The Resurrection Orb SPECIFICALLY states it works only on Reanimation Protocols. Nowhere in the item description does it say it works on Ever-Living.

No it doesn't. The ResOrb rule states the bearer and the unit pass RP rolls on a 4+. The EL rules states make a RP roll for each EL marked, just like the RP markers. Therefor, the bearer of the ResOrb with EL does benefit from the ResOrb.

Now, each of the Necron Characters has both Ever-Living AND Reanimation Protocols listed as skills, so that tends toward the two skills being completely separate, even if they accomplish the same goal. Unfortunately for the Necron Lord, Ever-living SPECIFICALLY states that you DON'T get to use Reanimation Protocols.

No, EL SPECIFICALLY states to use a marker different from those used to track RP rolls and use the RP rule for the EL model.

Zarryiosiad wrote:
I have no horse in this race, guys. I play Tyranids. But after reading four pages of "RAI/RAW" debates, where people are nitpicking on a single word or turn of phrase, I just wanted to point out that all of you have been reading more into the description than you should have been. I agree with the posters who say the rule is badly written. This should have been caught long before the book went to press, and only a FAQ is going to clear it up. But I think I've come up with a pretty strong argument as to why the Lord will always have a 5+, despite the description of the Resurrection Orb. It's right there in the wording.

Zarry

Actually, no you haven't. You're a victim of your own diatribe. You're attempting to read way to much in to the notion EL and RP are radically different to prove your point.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Im asking yiu to prove your point, which is entirely the purpose of this thread.

Youvare creating a ruke, this "check", entirely out of thin air and cliaming RAW. When asked to supply some actual rules, instead of doing so yiu divert by asking others to prove their case.

Classic diversionary tactics from you.

Actually, nos, no. I'm not the OPer and in fact until WanderingFox posted a reply, I supported your notion. But Fox's argument was clear and is, in retrospect, what I should have originally posted.

The "check" you're so concerned about happens as a normal part of game play. Was the piece of wargear available when the model was removed from play? If so, the model benefits from the wargear, if not, no benefit.

Otherwise, you have to introduce the notion that wargear can be used when not on the table and that's your argument that you've yet to prove.

Zarryiosiad wrote:You cannot assume anything in this game: players want (and deserve) to have everything be clearly spelled out to avoid arguments such as these. In the Tournament scene, RAI is ALWAYS trumped by RAW, unless a FAQ specifically clears up the problem. Until such time, RAW says the Resurrection Orb works only on Reanimation Protocols, even though Lords are clearly mentioned. Unfortunately, Lords do not use RP to get back up again--they use Ever-Living. Simple.

Not quite.) RAW is a tool that can be used to sometimes to solve disputes. RAW is also poorly defined itself, and can mean a lot of different things, and be argued differently by different people. If it really solved everything, we would never have 10 page threads. And in some cases, RAW gives incredibly stupid results, that no one actually plays by, just argues about on the interwebs.

For better information on how a situation will be ruled on at a tournament, ask the TO running the tournament.