I know they will fight the Imperium but are they bad guys? Will they murder entire human planets? Do they enslave people? I have read in the books that they sometimes ally up with the Imperium...

So if this is true how could they be bad?

I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

Everyone in 40k is 'bad'. Defining bad is the problem. Tau have the dodging sterilising populations incidents. Eldar condemn people to death on a Farseer's whim.

In the grand scheme of things, they aren't as bad as most other folks. The Eldar are space elitist snobs, and will wipe out a human planet if some vague prophecy says they should. The plot of pretty much every Dawn of War has been "Humans go to planet X, Eldar say there's bad stuff there, fight them, and in their dying breaths tell the Imperials they made a big mistake". The Eldar don't seem in the business of slavery though.

Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

However, neither Tau nor Eldar will just kill folks for the fun of it. They aren't on an endless buffet like the Tyranids, and don't revel in slaughter the way Orks or Chaos do.

Both of them have murdered entire planets. I think. I know the tau did it once, but I am not 100 about the eldar.

Oh most definitely the Eldar. They'd kill twenty million humans to save one Eldar. They'd kill two hundred million!

I could see saving their own race but if they were chillin in space and happened to run across a human planet would they be like yo fellow Tau or Eldar lets kill/attack that planet for no reason at all. Even if they were unprovoked?

No they wouldn't do that.

We all know the true good guys are the Necrons... I mean come on guys, they actually want unity... they just want the respect we... i mean.. they deserve

Brother SRM wrote:
Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

Slavery, as it is practiced within the Imperium of Man as well as other domains, would indicate that the Tau actually "possess" their allies. They don't.
The closest rl analogue to the relationship between the Tau and their various allies would be, at least in my opinion, the early roman republic, with it's system of italian allies.

KingDeath wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:
Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

Slavery, as it is practiced within the Imperium of Man as well as other domains, would indicate that the Tau actually "possess" their allies. They don't.
The closest rl analogue to the relationship between the Tau and their various allies would be, at least in my opinion, the early roman republic, with it's system of italian allies.

I imagine it's akin to Canada where they are part of the UK commonwealth, but they have there own government.

The comparison to Early Republican Rome and its Italian Allies is the way i think of it.....the only exception i think is that the Etherials will NEVER allow a human/Kroot/Vespid to reach the upper levels of Government. Italian allies over time became Romans...Humans are given a bit of leeway but would never be in the ruling councils

Are they Human? No. Then yes they are the badguys.

Imperial Doctrine

Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Eldar constantly manipulate fate killing billions. Armaggedon 3 was their fault. Tau are the least "bad" though they are still Imperialists.

Tau really aren't, mankind would be better off under Tau rule then the current status quo and they might stand a chance at real progress.

Eldar have a genocidal self-centered bastard side to them that dominates their agenda though.

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Everyone is "bad" in their own way, some more than others in a sense.

Original Tau designer notes wrote:In contrast to other races, we wanted the Tau to be altruistic and idealistic, believing heartily in unification as the way forward. This meant that they would happily incorporate other races into their empire without subjugating them, instead enticing them in with the benefits of mutual protection, trade and technology.

KingDeath wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Prisoners implies a chance for release. Speculation on the Imperium's part is that they were given the chance to denounce the Imperium and join "The Greater Good" or become indentured servants (fancy word for slave) for those who felt they had been wrongly used by the Imperium.

It also makes a mention of "the slave has become the master" or something to that effect.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Unfortunately, the human PoWs from the Taros campaign were enslaved.

Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Prisoners implies a chance for release. Speculation on the Imperium's part is that they were given the chance to denounce the Imperium and join "The Greater Good" or become indentured servants (fancy word for slave) for those who felt they had been wrongly used by the Imperium.

It also makes a mention of "the slave has become the master" or something to that effect.

Indentured servitude is not a fancy word for slave. A slave is property, an indentured servant is not. I can not locate the source of your quote. The only part which mentions the fate of the captured imperials says:
"The 17. and 89 Tallarn regiments had ceased to exist as coherent forces during the retreat, most of their men condemned to labour in Taros's mines for the Greater Good" (p.146).
In fact we do not even know if they were to do so for life. It sounds a bit like the fate of many german PoW's within soviet custody.

Indentured servitude very much is a fancy word for slave. One can be given a scale to work towards, but it's also very easy to set the scale to be one's entire life.

KingDeath wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Then your consideration is actualy wrong. The Tau do, in fact, not enslave you or anyone else. They will probably force you to join their growing empire ( just like all expanding societies did in history ) but slavery cannot be found within the Tau Empire. As it has been observed in the fluff they do not merely "spout on about a greater good". Their philosophy is not merely cheap propaganda they actualy life by it.
Just like the nascent Imperium decided to adopt the agressive unification of humanity as it's philosophy so did the Tau adopt the unification of the entire galaxy, for the good of all, as theirs.

Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

First they send the water caste. If you don't join them, they send the fire caste and then they kill you. They can talk all day long about their greater good angle, but sorry, what they do is pretty damn evil to me.

Kanluwen wrote:Indentured servitude very much is a fancy word for slave. One can be given a scale to work towards, but it's also very easy to set the scale to be one's entire life.

Once again, just because you think both things are the same doesn't mean that you are right. An indentured servant is not property while a slave very much is property.
That both can, at times, suffer from similar living conditions ( in fact there were slaves which lived much better lifes than most free men )does not truly matter in that regard.

Lets not turn this into yet another tau thread.

Necroshea wrote:
Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

First they send the water caste. If you don't join them, they send the fire caste and then they kill you. They can talk all day long about their greater good angle, but sorry, what they do is pretty damn evil to me.

Farsight, at least in my opinion, run away because he wanted to be truly free. Noone argues that the Tau are a free society, on the contrary.
Of course Farsight is a singular case. There has been at least one other Tau commander ( Flamewing ) who lost his Etheral "supervisors" as well without abandoning the Empire.
If you wish to measure the Tau by modern standards then yes, they are the Evil Empire ( their etherals even wear robes...give in to your anger young Kais...).
By the rather insane 40k standards they are actualy quite friendly. They prefer to talk before they shoot and they generaly seem to value cooperation over mere subjugation

usmcmidn wrote:I know they will fight the Imperium but are they bad guys?

Fighting the Imperium doesn't make them bad guys, their actions do. The Imperium are definitely bad guys as well.

Will they murder entire human planets?

The Eldar will do so without hesitation if they feel they are trespassing/giving offense/etc or that it will save even a handful Eldar from some future calamity.

The Tau would do so only if they had no other choice, but they wouldn't have any issues bombing them back to the stone age from orbit if the Tau come to bring the Greater Good and the humans refuse.

Do they enslave people?

Eldar? Not really. Tau? Depends on what you consider enslavement.

I have read in the books that they sometimes ally up with the Imperium...

Yup

So if this is true how could they be bad?

Because they do bad things. The Eldar deflected Ghazkull to Armageddon to save a small number of their own people, resulting in a war that's ruined multiple worlds and seen millions upon millions slain. They wipe out colonies they consider to be trespassing on their sacred worlds and other such deeds. The Tau are nicer, but basically their stance is "You *will* join us, whether you want to or not, and if diplomacy fails, we won't hesitate to resort to war".

I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

The Eldar? Yes. The Tau? Probably not unless it was necessary to prevent a greater loss of life.

On the good - evil scale, the Imperium and the Eldar are about even while the Tau are definitely closer to good than any other major race. While imperialistic, the Tau are no more tyrannical than Rome.

Eldar will kill entire worlds on a prophecy, the Imperium routinely commits genocide on planets found to contain alien civilizations, just to maintain human purity.

The Tau were supposed to be purged to make room for imperial colonies 6,000 years ago and were saved only by warp storms isolating their homeworld long enough to for them to become technologically advanced.

They are if you are human.

Brother SRM wrote:In the grand scheme of things, they aren't as bad as most other folks. The Eldar are space elitist snobs, and will wipe out a human planet if some vague prophecy says they should. The plot of pretty much every Dawn of War has been "Humans go to planet X, Eldar say there's bad stuff there, fight them, and in their dying breaths tell the Imperials they made a big mistake". The Eldar don't seem in the business of slavery though.

Tau on the other hand, are all about enslaving planets. There's conjecture that the Fire Warriors themselves are even mind controlled by the Ethereals, and I'm sure that same control could pass on to other races. The Tau "allies" are often no more than glorified slaves. The Tau are big into strongarming people into alliances, often through threat of annihilation. The Gue'Vasa, while sometimes just Imperials who defect to the Tau, can also be Imperials who surrendered to escape getting killed.

However, neither Tau nor Eldar will just kill folks for the fun of it. They aren't on an endless buffet like the Tyranids, and don't revel in slaughter the way Orks or Chaos do.

Tau don't believe in slavery the way you seem to think they do. Kroot and Vespid are NOT slaves, and it was even stated in the codex that Vespids are highly honoured individuals in the tau empire.

Gue'vesa worlds are protectorates, not slave colonies.

And actually you'll recall that their 2 biggest allies, kroot and vespid, joined out gratitude and seeing eye-to-eye, respectively.

The alien is not intrinsically evil.

Do not hate him. Pity him his ignorance.

Seek to understand his differences

And acquaint him with his inadequacies.

Only then will he accept his place

in the Greater Good.

Note: No aggression towards xenos.

I have received your messages, acquainting me that these worlds belong to your Emperor, your master. In return I am to inform you that the said worlds belong to his Ethereal Majesty, Aun'O Bork'an Vral, my master, by right of settlement. Should you wish to gain similar rights you must submit yourselves to his wisdom as members of the Tau empire.

Note: Diplomacy, albeit unsubtle.

Stranger, I bid you greetings in the name of the Tau.

If you are reading this then you will have encountered one of our messengers drones and are therefore a spacefaring race. Soon you will see more evidence of us, this is no cause for alarm.

When you encounter one of our ships or outposts then welcome it. We have much to offer a faithful friend. We are five castes, one people. The earth caste build and manufacture, the air caste pilot and navigate, the water caste liase and arbitrate, the fire caste guard our holdings and defeat our enemies. All are bound to the dream of bringing a new way to the universe.

I hope you will choose to share the culture, technology and protection of the Tau empire.

The one constant in the universe is change, the wise adapt.

Believe in our destiny.

Note: this is the tau greeting an unknown alien species in the form of a message drone.

The Imperial counterpart would be PURGE THE HERETIC so all things considered they are most likely the most friendly race.

Eldar are also friendly enough, given the right circumstances. I can really on see them ever being friendly to non-imperial humans with no malicious intent, and tau.

OOOOOOOOO a tau-Eldar alliance would be quite epic, quite epic indeed.

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

When I say bad I dont mean the definition of the Imperium. Hell some Space Marines wo0uld be considered bad (Salamanders, with their keeping in touch with their old families and even seeing them on a basis, often showing mercy to xenos when on a crusade (The Salamander by Nick Kyme)).

My point when I say good guy was if they would needlessly kill people/other xenos (other tau, Eldar, or another friendlyish alien race) for not reason whatsoever other than the fact that they could.

usmcmidn wrote:When I say bad I dont mean the definition of the Imperium. Hell some Space Marines wo0uld be considered bad (Salamanders, with their keeping in touch with their old families and even seeing them on a basis, often showing mercy to xenos when on a crusade (The Salamander by Nick Kyme)).

My point when I say good guy was if they would needlessly kill people/other xenos (other tau, Eldar, or another friendlyish alien race) for not reason whatsoever other than the fact that they could.

Well, no, they wouldn't kill other sentient species for no reason at all. The Eldar seem to prefer to ignore the "lesser" species ( Eldar Corsairs on the other hand can be nearlyas cruel as the Dark Eldar ) while the Tau built their entire philosophy arout unifying all sentient species under their Greater Good.
Even the Imperium, by all standards a dystopian hellhole, does not commit genocide just because they feel like it. From an imperial perspective all other sentient
species are a threat to mankind's very survival, either now or later. While this sentiment might not be completely right, experience has taught them that quite a few alien species
are in fact hostile to human life.

Kroothawk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

Clever

And actually, the reason Farsight ran away was because GW needed a reason for tau to be able to fight tau on the TT. Right now, the only matchup that makes no sense is kroot mercs against Tau.

usmcmidn wrote:I know they will fight the Imperium but are they bad guys?

It depends, they are not more evil then Humans. Eldar look only after themselves and Tau want's to rule over all others.

Will they murder entire human planets?

Armageddon and Nimbosa.

Do they enslave people?

Eldar sold Human Governor to Dark Eldar and Tau used Taros POW to work until death in mines.

I have read in the books that they sometimes ally up with the Imperium...

Desperate times = desperate measures.

So if this is true how could they be bad?

Everybody are bad in it's own way. Eldar are too selfish and Tau are too controllable.

I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

You are right, they kill only when they have to - just like the Imeprium.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

Clever

And actually, the reason Farsight ran away was because GW needed a reason for tau to be able to fight tau on the TT. Right now, the only matchup that makes no sense is kroot mercs against Tau.

Too bad they haven't actually fought any battles. Same with tau and Eldar. As far as I know, they haven't had any battles.

nomotog wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Necroshea wrote:Tau fanboys (I'm not calling you this. Just people who defend them to the death) really need to read xenology. An inquisitor is interrogating an ethereal, and asks about farsight. Asking why is it that when he found himself without an ethereal due to it getting killed, he ran away instead of joining back in with the empire that's apparently so just and righteous. Why would he and those under him flee instead of coming back? Because the ethereals weren't there to make them come back.

Tau hatemongers (I'm not calling you this. Just people who attack them to death) need to consider that Xenology features ethereals with feet and most is written from the perspective of a mad inquisitor. And Farsight ran away because he committed a war crime (massacre) and wasn't ready to be made responsible for that.

Clever

And actually, the reason Farsight ran away was because GW needed a reason for tau to be able to fight tau on the TT. Right now, the only matchup that makes no sense is kroot mercs against Tau.

Too bad they haven't actually fought any battles. Same with tau and Eldar. As far as I know, they haven't had any battles.

I know that the enclaves haven't fought the Empire; but it is a plausible reason.

Also, IIRC, the tau and Eldar have had exactly 0 contact of any kind. Though if Eldrad's thoughts on the matter are anything to go by, I think it could potentially be the only major (tau aren't quite major yet, but who knows? this storyline won't go farther until the next codex, and after the fourth sphere expansion...) faction alliance in 40k, provided:
A. Vior'la/Sa'cea Do not take place in Tau diplomacy

B. Biel-tan does not take place in Eldar diplomacy

C. DE don't meet tau first, because after the DE, I am betting that any tau would kill an Eldar on sight.

I could have sworn the tau and eldar have meet. The tau did do a few battles with the DE.

The Tau approach to warfare is actually pretty close to the modern equivalent of today's civilized countries. Commanders are expected to defeat their enemies but are limited in what they are allowed to do morally to do so.


For example, the commander who systematically eradicated the human forces on that one planet was sent back to Tau for re-education of sorts. Even when an enemy invades, the Tau respect the Greater Good and the preservation of life - for selfish reasons but such selfishness is a necessary evil.

So when an enemy comes down to one of their planets and they overcome that enemy and can force it to surrender, its a grave offense for them to simply execute that enemy totally. More or less, similar to Western ideals vs middle east situation, the Tau just feel that everyone else is desperately ignorant and in need of their guidance.



Subduing people is a basic necessity for any large society, however. As a member of society we're all expected to set aside personal aspirations or emotions in order to operate smoothly. The Tau are like an exaggerated version of this.

correlation2 wrote:The Tau approach to warfare is actually pretty close to the modern equivalent of today's civilized countries. Commanders are expected to defeat their enemies but are limited in what they are allowed to do morally to do so.


For example, the commander who systematically eradicated the human forces on that one planet was sent back to Tau for re-education of sorts. Even when an enemy invades, the Tau respect the Greater Good and the preservation of life - for selfish reasons but such selfishness is a necessary evil.

So when an enemy comes down to one of their planets and they overcome that enemy and can force it to surrender, its a grave offense for them to simply execute that enemy totally. More or less, similar to Western ideals vs middle east situation, the Tau just feel that everyone else is desperately ignorant and in need of their guidance.

Subduing people is a basic necessity for any large society, however. As a member of society we're all expected to set aside personal aspirations or emotions in order to operate smoothly. The Tau are like an exaggerated version of this.

Excpet our modern warfare doesn't include press ganging the survivors of invasion into battle and throw their allies in front of the enemy so that we can fire away from a safe distance.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

correlation2 wrote:The Tau approach to warfare is actually pretty close to the modern equivalent of today's civilized countries. Commanders are expected to defeat their enemies but are limited in what they are allowed to do morally to do so.


For example, the commander who systematically eradicated the human forces on that one planet was sent back to Tau for re-education of sorts. Even when an enemy invades, the Tau respect the Greater Good and the preservation of life - for selfish reasons but such selfishness is a necessary evil.

So when an enemy comes down to one of their planets and they overcome that enemy and can force it to surrender, its a grave offense for them to simply execute that enemy totally. More or less, similar to Western ideals vs middle east situation, the Tau just feel that everyone else is desperately ignorant and in need of their guidance.

Subduing people is a basic necessity for any large society, however. As a member of society we're all expected to set aside personal aspirations or emotions in order to operate smoothly. The Tau are like an exaggerated version of this.

Excpet our modern warfare doesn't include press ganging the survivors of invasion into battle and throw their allies in front of the enemy so that we can fire away from a safe distance.

Except tau warfare doesn't do that either. There is a lovely quote in the codex that states that tau warfare doesn't even recognize the concept of expendable troops. No meatgrinder.

KingDeath wrote:Forced labour =/ slavery.
To elaborate. While forced labour is a part of being a slave the main difference is that a slave is also the property of someone else. Unlike the imperial PoW's became property, which is afaik unsuported by the fluff, they are "merely" prisoners which are forced to work in the mines, similar to some modern day prisoners which are used for all kinds of labour. So, to make it short, you can be unfree and you can be subject to forced labour, that does not necessarily make you a slave because you are not mere property.

Semantics at its finest.

Regardless of how you want to play with definitions, is the practice of endless forced labor any "better" than slavery? I mean, the question of this thread is whether or not the Tau are "bad guys", not "What's the definition of slavery?" In the end, despite the more "good" angle the Tau have been cast in is a sham. They are just as ruthless and self-serving as the Imperium, just without the resources to be as oppressive and overbearing. Life in the Imperium isn't as bad as it is sometimes made out to be, and life in the Tau Empire isn't as fun and happy as it is sometimes made out to be. "The Greater Good" is really as much of an "Our Way or the Highway" as the Imperium's philosophy, it just has more options for joining the "Our Way".

In the end, the Tau are still too idealistic and naive to be as pragmatic as the Imperium is.

It's amusing to see something said about pragmatism when you consider the Tau are aware that a few spoken words can do more damage than a few thousand Fire Warriors and the Imperium... isn't.

Not to say one is better than the other, I just thought it was a funny thing to read.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Regardless of how you want to play with definitions, is the practice of endless forced labor any "better" than slavery?

On a mining planet you can only do two things: Kill Tau (soldier) or do mining (worker). Tau decided that the humans better do mining

Under the Geneva Convention POWs can be required to do work which doesn't directly aid the captors' war effort, however they must be paid.

From Wikipedia:

Labour of prisoners of war

Articles 27 to 34 cover labour by prisoners of war. Work must fit the rank and health of the prisoners. The work must not be war-related and must be safe work. Remuneration will be agreed between the Belligerents and will belong to the prisoner who carries out the work.

I don't know how the human labour force was organised in Taros.

usmcmidn wrote: Will they murder entire human planets? Do they enslave people?

Oddly, you just described what the imperium does. The Imperium are not good guys. At all....

usmcmidn wrote:I guess what I am asking would they needlessly kill billions of people like the Orks, Chaos, Nids etc...

Given that there are trillions of humans, and they breed like rabbits compared to Eldar.....yes, they would if it saved just a few Eldar lives.

Now Dark Eldar....thats a different story. Creatures that suck the life essence (ie, soul) out of other living creatures to prolong their lives is pretty damn evil.

Of course they're both evil!

Tau want to conquer the galaxy and make themselves first among equals because they believe all the other races need to be saved from their own barbarism and ignorance with good tau order and technology. Sound familiar? It should, its a readaptation of 'the white man's burden' that was used to justify European Imperialism in the 19th century against non-European civilisations. You basically argue that even if you conquer them it will turn out to be better since your rule will be more beneficial and enlightened than if people ruled themselves.

They also mind control the Vespid, Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender and in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population. They are either extremely arrogant/nieve, or they're total . You could say since they're closest to a real life Empire they're nice-er but not that they're the good guys.

Eldar only care about themselves, the rest of the galaxy can burn and some craftworlds like Biel Tan openly want to exterminate humanity in what they see as their Empire.

>>They also mind control the Vespid

It's a speculative remark made by an Imperial observer without anything to substantiate it.

>>Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender

He shot up a military convoy he had trapped in a ravine. It wasn't very nice and he should have accepted their surrender. He was recalled and punished.

>>in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population

They put the ones who would not swear allegiance into PoW camps. The population ratio changed because Tau colonists came to the planet.

Kilkrazy wrote:
They put the ones who would not swear allegiance into PoW camps. The population ratio changed because Tau colonists came to the planet.

IIRC they said nothing about allegiances in the extro (but I could be wrong), however it did mention that the humans were eventually dwindled to irrelevance, though I haven't seen it in a couple years and I can't use sound at work for da yuutubez.

If Europe had never subjugated North America, the USA and Canada would never have existed, and the safe bastions of technology and air force training would never have been available to Allied forces during the World Wars.

Women in the middle east would have virtually no hope of equal rights, education, and such that they only barely get now because of the intervention of western countries.


You can argue that the advance of science, technology, and society is bad all you want. You can cry as many tears as you want for the discman because it got replaced by the mp3 player. That's just silly sentiment.

The fact of the matter is that Native Americans, like underdeveloped or ignorant aliens in the 40k fluff, would not enjoy the longevity and security of our great nations if our nations had not been funded. They would not receive billions of dollars and plots of land with the right to practice historical beliefs if a less graceful society had removed them. They are, by all accounts, lucky to live in the most precious continent in the world.



Any person who disagrees with this is free to wander into the bush and live a short, hard, dangerous life without education or access to things like running water and electricity. They are free to be scared, hungry, superstitious, and ultimately useless to the advancement of humanity.

This parallel can easily be drawn in the fluff between the Tau and other races. Those individuals are free to choose death or worse, but, their selfishness - the needs of the few - will not outweigh the needs of the many.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Eldar only care about themselves, the rest of the galaxy can burn and some craftworlds like Biel Tan openly want to exterminate humanity in what they see as their Empire.

Far from the truth. They see themselves as the natural inheritors and guardians of the galaxy, and may even go to quite some extent to safeguard human colonies against chaos' taint - however, they also suffer from near-perfect consequence analysis, and they will know that many times the civil actions of dialogue and communication may make the situation worse or delay the necessary response (edit: the human administration's natural tendency to corruption and mistrust isn't exactly helpful, either). Add on to this that humans are only civilized neighbors at best of times, only preferable to most of the galaxy by degrees of belligerence, I have no doubt that many Eldar craftworlds would act unselfishly towards colonies of non-extremist humans, etc. (Good neighbors are useful, after all)
Most, not all. The difference between craftworlds both in terms of culture, technology, strategy in warfare, as well as disposition to outsiders are greatly varied. Saim-Hann can't even be counted on to help even other Craftworlders while Alaitoc would follow prophecy to a fault.

As an example, a human colonized Maiden World is attacked by forces of chaos. Saim-Hann may ignore the conflict completely, Ulthwé may seize the opportunity to strategically take out potent chaos commanders, Alaitoc may largely help the human population but will not stoop at exterminating potential threats for future Eldar among the human forces, Il-Kaithe would not rest until the taint of chaos has been wiped out on the planet and may even help the human Inquisition covertly in their post-battle efforts, Biel-Tan are likely to take the opportunity to strike while both forces are in a pitched situation to wipe out all human/chaos "life" from the planet in question, and so on.

correlation2 wrote:If Europe had never subjugated North America, the USA and Canada would never have existed, and the safe bastions of technology and air force training would never have been available to Allied forces during the World Wars.

Women in the middle east would have virtually no hope of equal rights, education, and such that they only barely get now because of the intervention of western countries.


You can argue that the advance of science, technology, and society is bad all you want. You can cry as many tears as you want for the discman because it got replaced by the mp3 player. That's just silly sentiment.

The fact of the matter is that Native Americans, like underdeveloped or ignorant aliens in the 40k fluff, would not enjoy the longevity and security of our great nations if our nations had not been funded. They would not receive billions of dollars and plots of land with the right to practice historical beliefs if a less graceful society had removed them. They are, by all accounts, lucky to live in the most precious continent in the world.



Any person who disagrees with this is free to wander into the bush and live a short, hard, dangerous life without education or access to things like running water and electricity. They are free to be scared, hungry, superstitious, and ultimately useless to the advancement of humanity.

This parallel can easily be drawn in the fluff between the Tau and other races. Those individuals are free to choose death or worse, but, their selfishness - the needs of the few - will not outweigh the needs of the many.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

The Eldar and Tau are way more good than all the other factions in 40k. Sure the Eldar kill a lot of humans, but it's either to save themselves or to prevent massive future disasters that could harm more than them. The galaxy would surely have been fethed up if not for Eldar manipulation. The Imperium kills a lot of xenos, even exterminate entire species, simply because they are not human. Sounds familiar? Kind of reminds me of that guy from WW2...

Totalwar1402 wrote:Tau want to conquer the galaxy and make themselves first among equals because they believe all the other races need to be saved from their own barbarism and ignorance with good tau order and technology. Sound familiar? It should, its a readaptation of 'the white man's burden' that was used to justify European Imperialism in the 19th century against non-European civilisations. You basically argue that even if you conquer them it will turn out to be better since your rule will be more beneficial and enlightened than if people ruled themselves.

Bravo sir. That's probably the best, most succinct examination of the Tau I've seen.

Kanluwen wrote:Indentured servitude very much is a fancy word for slave. One can be given a scale to work towards, but it's also very easy to set the scale to be one's entire life.

Intentured servitude is not the same thing as slavery. It is quite possible to set the conditions so that a particular instance is exactly the same as slavery, but that's no different than saying that captialism is the same as slavery because you can set up company towns to produce the same result.

The... Tau aren't first in anything though. They have the exact same position as everyone else.

This kind of reminds me of the Mandalorians from Star Wars or whatever. The planet had all kinds of beings on it, and they were all Mandalorians, because it was a method of thinking as opposed to some specific biological makeup.


There's a pretty obvious distinction between the Tau and the Ethereals. The Ethereals share a similar appearance and that seems to be about it. They aren't described as being known of in any of the initial would-be-caste societies or anything like that. They are the bringers of the Greater Good and instill the ideology in their servants.

To say the Ethereals epitomize the benign tyrant is fair, but the Ethereals take advantage of the Tau - the Tau aren't the Ethereals.

I for one want to be protected against Chaos's "taint".

Totalwar1402 wrote:Of course they're both evil!

Tau want to conquer the galaxy and make themselves first among equals because they believe all the other races need to be saved from their own barbarism and ignorance with good tau order and technology. Sound familiar? It should, its a readaptation of 'the white man's burden' that was used to justify European Imperialism in the 19th century against non-European civilisations. You basically argue that even if you conquer them it will turn out to be better since your rule will be more beneficial and enlightened than if people ruled themselves.

They also mind control the Vespid, Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender and in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population. They are either extremely arrogant/nieve, or they're total . You could say since they're closest to a real life Empire they're nice-er but not that they're the good guys..

Actually, if you even read the codices, tau originally expanded because they realized a single stellar event or supernova or whatever, could destroy their entire species. So they want more holdings. Could a supernova destroy the IoM? No. Even if Sol were destroyed.

And they do not mind control Vespid, that is speculation on the part of the Imperial Observer.
And Brightsword did not commit genocide. He simply used brutal battle tactics and wiped the enemy out to a man, which is why he was court-marshalled.
No one was ever sterilized. In the non-canon ending of a video game, Imperial Observers speculated that that could be it. Or, you know, it could be the fact that they were separated by gender into camps, which would kinda explain the population dwindling.


They are by far the least-evil faction in 40k.

That court-marshal on Brightsword happened with the aim of preventing a war with the IoM. Preventing. A. War.

When has anyone else tried to stop a war from happening.

Kilkrazy wrote:
>>They also mind control the Vespid

It's a speculative remark made by an Imperial observer without anything to substantiate it.

>>Brightsword commited a genocide on the human population of a world after it refused to surrender

He shot up a military convoy he had trapped in a ravine. It wasn't very nice and he should have accepted their surrender. He was recalled and punished.

>>in Dark Crusade they sterilised the human population

They put the ones who would not swear allegiance into PoW camps. The population ratio changed because Tau colonists came to the planet.

Speculative means its up to the player and that either could be true, much like how they're vague on Farsight.

Before Brightsword attacks the convoy, he wipes out the planets population because they resisted him, not just military but the whole planet.

No, the ratio didn't change, they all but died out and its heavily hinted that sterilization was the cause. At any rate using colonists to displace the native society is an evil in its own right.


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correlation2 wrote:The... Tau aren't first in anything though. They have the exact same position as everyone else.

This kind of reminds me of the Mandalorians from Star Wars or whatever. The planet had all kinds of beings on it, and they were all Mandalorians, because it was a method of thinking as opposed to some specific biological makeup.

The codex has a heading that states 'First among equals', also if the ruling caste are all Tau and they aren't elected then you know.

Luke_Prowler wrote:

correlation2 wrote:If Europe had never subjugated North America, the USA and Canada would never have existed, and the safe bastions of technology and air force training would never have been available to Allied forces during the World Wars.

Women in the middle east would have virtually no hope of equal rights, education, and such that they only barely get now because of the intervention of western countries.


You can argue that the advance of science, technology, and society is bad all you want. You can cry as many tears as you want for the discman because it got replaced by the mp3 player. That's just silly sentiment.

The fact of the matter is that Native Americans, like underdeveloped or ignorant aliens in the 40k fluff, would not enjoy the longevity and security of our great nations if our nations had not been funded. They would not receive billions of dollars and plots of land with the right to practice historical beliefs if a less graceful society had removed them. They are, by all accounts, lucky to live in the most precious continent in the world.



Any person who disagrees with this is free to wander into the bush and live a short, hard, dangerous life without education or access to things like running water and electricity. They are free to be scared, hungry, superstitious, and ultimately useless to the advancement of humanity.

This parallel can easily be drawn in the fluff between the Tau and other races. Those individuals are free to choose death or worse, but, their selfishness - the needs of the few - will not outweigh the needs of the many.

FOR THE GREATER GOOD.

Yeah, that came out of nowhere. Native Americans in Canada and America do not enjoy an increased quality of life since European contact I can tell you that. Seems a little off-topic anyway.

Totalwar1402 wrote:Before Brightsword attacks the convoy, he wipes out the planets population because they resisted him, not just military but the whole planet.

That is a good description why he was sacked. So punishing genocides is evil now?

Totalwar1402 wrote:No, the ratio didn't change, they all but died out and its heavily hinted that sterilization was the cause. At any rate using colonists to displace the native society is an evil in its own right.

Men and women are living in separate camps. Ask Mom and Dad, why there are less children, when men and women don't meet. BTW this ending of a non-GW-game took place in an alternative timeline, and sterilization is presented as the third likeliest explanation by the Imperial narrator. And the next supplement of the same game features an ending, where Sororitas cull the Imperial Guard AND Space Marines on the planet, so ...

So Brightsword wiped out the whole population.

Then he attacked a convoy.

Yes.

I see.

Kilkrazy wrote:So Brightsword wiped out the whole population.

Then he attacked a convoy.

Yes.

I see.

Totally off topic... but i cant stop looking at ur avatar... Shes gorgeous and xmas spirit. Lovin it hahaha.

Following Coolio's example...

No.

Everyone are bad guys.

Necroshea wrote:Eldar fight for their survival. Since they are dying out this is sort of a big deal. Unlike other races every life is extremely precious. If anything, they are gakkers, but having a god constantly hunger for your soul and looking at oblivion in the face can do that to you.

Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

I'd say the Tau are like the Imperium. There's nuggets of good in each race, but as a whole they're not exactly "good".

Compared to the Imperium they are not. The Imperium kills more living things than all other races put together probably! No race is goody goody but Eldar and Tau are nowhere near as bad as many. The Imperium is as bad as Chaos really!

monkeypuzzle wrote:Compared to the Imperium they are not. The Imperium kills more living things than all other races put together probably! No race is goody goody but Eldar and Tau are nowhere near as bad as many. The Imperium is as bad as Chaos really!

Or even worse.

This is a grim dark future. There is only war, and war from anybody's perspective (aside from some of the more perverse individuals and races) is hardly a good thing. There is no 'good' only various shades of grey, of which the Tau probably have the lightest of which, yet still have that lovely pinch of grimdark that is mandatory to all races of 40k.

But having said that, while Tau and Eldar are hardly 'good', they are the closest things (perhaps the Imperium could be included here) 40k has to 'good guys' (aside from the Reasonable Marines of course!).

The better question to ask is Who are the good guys? Because quite frankly the Imperium of man sure isn't. Maybe if the Heresy hadn't happened and the emperor was still in power doing his thing, but that's speculative as well considering some of his choices of action.

dalsiandon wrote:The better question to ask is Who are the good guys?

That question is easy to answer though. Nobody. There is no good, there is no evil, merely shades of grey. Survival is key to each race and they'll do whatever they need to if they're going to survive. If you look at it with our perspectives, our outlooks, our views, then each and every race is evil, but to them it is whatever it takes to survive.

There's plenty of evil. Chaos and Dark Eldar are just evil for the sake of being evil and make no apologies for it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

monkeypuzzle wrote:Compared to the Imperium they are not. The Imperium kills more living things than all other races put together probably! No race is goody goody but Eldar and Tau are nowhere near as bad as many. The Imperium is as bad as Chaos really!

Or even worse.

Good Lord. Lack of perspective much?

First, define Evil.

Well I mean most Imperial SM chapters are good right?

I mean I have read the Salamanders will Sacrifice its Marines for civilians and other chapters do it as well (Ultra, Mantis, Sharks etc...)

Arnt Imperial Guard supposed to look over Imperial opoulations as well?

I can see the inquisition and SB being somewhat evil and extremist who would kill if they sensed a bit of heretic which to them could b everyone even some SM.

Or am I totally wrong? And would they just randomly destroy an Eldar planet or Tau Planet? ? ?

usmcmidn wrote:Well I mean most Imperial SM chapters are good right?

I mean I have read the Salamanders will Sacrifice its Marines for civilians and other chapters do it as well (Ultra, Mantis, Sharks etc...)

Arnt Imperial Guard supposed to look over Imperial opoulations as well?

I can see the inquisition and SB being somewhat evil and extremist who would kill if they sensed a bit of heretic which to them could b everyone even some SM.

Or am I totally wrong? And would they just randomly destroy an Eldar planet or Tau Planet? ? ?

Of course they would if given the chance. Mainly because there is nothing random about destroying alien planets. Imperial doctrine holds that all aliens need to be
purged so that mankind's galactic domain will be forever save. Of course in practise not all alien species are wiped out on sight. This can have several reasons.
Some alien species are too well protected and therefore ( at least for the moment ) too costly to attack for comparatively little gain ( Tau, Eldar, various Ork Empires and the like ).
Other species might be too harmless to justify the deployment of sufficient forces to wipe them out. After all, every warship that is used to bomb some harmless stone age alien civilisation could
be put to better use against a more dangerous foe.
The homeworlds of other species, like the RakhGol and the Dark Eldar, are unknown or simply too well hidden to attack.

Regarding the Spacemarines, with a few exceptions Spacemarines aren't nice or friendly. They are made to protect the Emperor's domain by all means necessary and not to cuddle civilians.
While some chapters seem to forget this, others ( Black Templars, Dark Angels, Iron Hands, Marines Malevolent, Space Sharks, Mortifactors, Minotaurs, just to name a few ) don't care too much about a collateral damage as long as the chapter's actual mission is accomplished.

Ah I see... But I read somewhere the Space Sharks have a similar philosophy as the Salamanders... Wouldnt they "cuddle" civilians then?

I also read that the Salamanders and Imperial Guard know where Commorragh is. When the Dark Eldar took one of the Salamanders Strike Cruisers they wanted it back and raided the hive with some Imperil Guard and left it in ruins. As told by the entry in Lexicanum Commorragh Raid. Now if one chapter and some Guard were to do it once why dont they do it for good and wipe it out now instead of having to deal with the DE over and over again? ? ?

I no thats off topic but...

usmcmidn wrote:Ah I see... But I read somewhere the Space Sharks have a similar philosophy as the Salamanders... Wouldnt they "cuddle" civilians then?

I also read that the Salamanders and Imperial Guard know where Commorragh is. When the Dark Eldar took one of the Salamanders Strike Cruisers they wanted it back and raided the hive with some Imperil Guard and left it in ruins. As told by the entry in Lexicanum Commorragh Raid. Now if one chapter and some Guard were to do it once why dont they do it for good and wipe it out now instead of having to deal with the DE over and over again? ? ?

I no thats off topic but...

The Spacesharks in IA 9/10 are utterly savage and merciless. The Commorragh Raid is a bit more complex. The Salamanders + allies were tricked to fly trough an otherwise hidden webway portal to further Vect's political goals. If the portal is still active or even at the same position is unknown.

SM chapters have serfs.

Ah ok I get it Thx

Kilkrazy wrote:First, define Evil.

Willfully inflicting suffering.


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Kilkrazy wrote:SM chapters have serfs.

...good for them.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's plenty of evil. Chaos and Dark Eldar are just evil for the sake of being evil and make no apologies for it.

Death is a part of life. You could argue that blood for the blood god is there to improve the genetic basis of humanity in a similar way that malformed babies were killed. Don't forget that khorne also loves kids. The warriors wait till they are full grown before killing them.

Chaos gives you choice, unlike the imperium. Slaanesh wants you to experience life to the fullest. Tszeench wants you to be yourself, with no regrets. They are both advocates of freedom.

Nurgle followers are having a party, and your invited! They are just coming to hang out, and they even brought the beer. Why are you shooting at them? Now their just defending themselves. Even if you drive them back, a few days later you will feel under the weather, then you will come join the party.

Is chaos evil? It's debatable

Kroothawk wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:Before Brightsword attacks the convoy, he wipes out the planets population because they resisted him, not just military but the whole planet.

That is a good description why he was sacked. So punishing genocides is evil now?

Totalwar1402 wrote:No, the ratio didn't change, they all but died out and its heavily hinted that sterilization was the cause. At any rate using colonists to displace the native society is an evil in its own right.

Men and women are living in separate camps. Ask Mom and Dad, why there are less children, when men and women don't meet. BTW this ending of a non-GW-game took place in an alternative timeline, and sterilization is presented as the third likeliest explanation by the Imperial narrator. And the next supplement of the same game features an ending, where Sororitas cull the Imperial Guard AND Space Marines on the planet, so ...

They sacked him because he didn't ask an Imperial army of retribution for surrender but destroyed it; they sacked him because he offended their sensibilites not that he wiped out a population that refused his calls to surrender beforehand. At least thats how the codex story seemed to be worded.

Actually preventing births by force is considered an Act of Genocide by the UN if applied on the sort of scale you're implying.

The post is are eldar and Tau evil, not are they more or less dickish than the Imperials.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:So Brightsword wiped out the whole population.

Then he attacked a convoy.

Yes.

I see.

Yes, because the Imperium of Man did not appreciate losing one of its planet and sent an army to take it back; this is when the ambush happened.

Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

im2randomghgh wrote:...

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Really? They destroyed a planet for a scrap of info and a demonstration of power. It created an intergalactic war and literary pulled the strings on both sides to achieve it's objective. And that's just in the movies, forget about all the EU stuff.

However in terms of the way things are run, yeah the IoM is a far worse organization. Of course when you consider all the EU stuff about the GE and compare the Military might of each group is probably close, especially when comparing the IG with the way Imperial Stormtroopers are set-up.

It's my understanding of the fluff that pretty much everything that is bad that is happening is the Eldar's fault.

The Tau are not evil, but they sure as heck aren't good.

Can't we all get along

usmcmidn wrote:Can't we all get along

There is only WAR!!!!

Comparing the Imperium and the Tau empire (yet again, sigh) is impossible. Calling the Imperium evil because of the steps it's leaders take to stop, slow down, or eradicate a Tyranid Hive Fleet or demonic incursion (exterminatus) is easy because no one here would ever had to make a call like that. Neither have the Tau. They don't have to deal with heretics or possible demon possession, and haven't had to deal with a massive Tyranid invasion. Even their Ork incursions have been minute in comparison to those that the Imperium has dealt with.

The Imperium's attitude is that the end is justified by the means, or win by any cost. If that means a hive planet is destroyed so that the Tyranids starve to death, so be it. The Tau have never had to face something like this, EVER. They have the luxury of their Greater Good because they don't have to deal with anything that monstrous.

The Eldar are haughty and arrogant, shocking...being space elves. They have their own 'Greater Good'. What I don't get is that instead of accepting their lot in the galaxy and responsiblity for creating a Chaos God and teaching the younger races how to combat the warp...they spend all of their time raising hell. The sooner these space-fairing donkey-caves get wiped out, the better.

im2randomghgh wrote:Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Article 2 of the UN Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2

Tau did this by splitting male and female humans in a camp, not really the same as dorms in a uni campus because thats totally voluntary, done by a small part of a society and not forcibly imposed on the entirity of a population by a foriegn power. Unless you're saying the campus staff are foriegn devils.

Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, thats the actual United Nations definition of what genocide is under Article Two of its convention. Another poster was saying preventing births in a population wasn't genocide and I remembered having studied it at university so I copied the section from wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Prevention_and_Punishment_of_the_Crime_of_Genocide

Anyway, the post isn't about comparing Tau to Imperium, but on our terms, yes, they are , really evil .

The example he gave was a few posts and days ago; but I think he was suggesting that was what happened to the humans in Dark Crusade. I thought it was sterilization myself.

No, what the Tau did. I know the UN isn't a fan theory.

Haha that's actually great!
I just internalized how sweet of an idea that would be for a South Park episode, with all the world's governments (or most of them) getting together to write a joint fanfic that is the UN!

Totalwar1402 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Article 2 of the UN Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2

Tau did this by splitting male and female humans in a camp, not really the same as dorms in a uni campus because thats totally voluntary, done by a small part of a society and not forcibly imposed on the entirity of a population by a foriegn power. Unless you're saying the campus staff are foriegn devils.

Segregated imprisonment of PoWs isn't a case of Article 2 (d).

usmcmidn wrote:Well I mean most Imperial SM chapters are good right?

I mean I have read the Salamanders will Sacrifice its Marines for civilians and other chapters do it as well (Ultra, Mantis, Sharks etc...)

Arnt Imperial Guard supposed to look over Imperial opoulations as well?

I can see the inquisition and SoB being somewhat evil and extremist who would kill if they sensed a bit of heretic which to them could b everyone even some SM.

Or am I totally wrong? And would they just randomly destroy an Eldar planet or Tau Planet? ? ?

SoB are also zealous when it comes to protecting the Emperor's people. Just see Armageddon 3'rd war.
But all of them above would kill every last alien on some random planet, because they are all xenophobic and love just their own race.


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Kilkrazy wrote:First, define Evil.

It's hard to define evil in 40k, when almost all things are evil.
We must look it like this:

-By their ideals all races are evil, with Tau slightly being less. Because all other races look to their interest and to rule/destroy over all other. But if we look some of their ideals some races like Eldar, Imperium and Tau have some good ideals ( like preservation of their own race, protection, opposing Chaos etc... ).

-If we look actions of individuals, some races are less evil then others ( Imperium allying with Tau and Eldar, Tau offering shelter and support to other races, Eldar occasionally helping Imperium and others in battles against various threats ). You can even say that most of the Imperium's population would gladly help any alien they encounter if they are friendly ( until their superiors find out anyway ).

-Ultimate goal of every race make them all evil except Tau. Because all races look to themselves and don't care about others, except Tau. But there is some good in that to, they are prepared to defend their populations to the end. And to are eyes, the ones to defend civilian population from death and destruction will always be good guys.

-When it comes to freedom of individual, only race that gives full freedom are Orks. All others have some restrictions when it comes to personal freedom ( Chaos being worst of them all for taking your very soul as payment ).

-The real good guys to me in 40k are undiscovered Human colonies. Because those colonies probably don't do most of the grim thing the rest of major galactic power do. If majority of them are like we today we can agree to that.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

Can't say for the Tau, but the Eldar aren't evil.

People cite wiping out Imperial planets wholesale, thats no more genocide than when you clean the kitchen surface with an antibacterial wipe...

They are arrogant to the point where really in terms of being people the other races don't count, they are savage beasts to be culled and removed, as befits a race that was ancient when humanity crawled on it's belly from the ocean.

If they thought they could get away with it and didn't need humanity to be cannon fodder against worse things I suspect they would wipe them out in an instant, not out of a sense of evil or malice, but because thats Eldar land and a bunch of semi-evolved upstart savages would never be missed.

They're not bad, in my opinion they're sort of like the imperium. A lesser evil compared to everything else

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.
2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

Necroshea wrote:Tau, as it's been said, will enslave you. They spout on about a greater good, but that basically amounts to serve us or die. I consider them an evil force that masks what it does with positive propaganda.

Kind of like Imperialist forces throughout our actual history, bringing the good of civilization to all those misinformed and backwards savages in the galaxy.

Of course the Imperium did this too in its Empire building phase and in the great crusade to reunite the empire under one banner again. The human planets found were given the option to join up with the Imperium peacefully or forcibly and the Imperium didn't necessarily care if it wiped your out during the forcible path either.

I personally don't feel that there are any "good" guys in the 40k universe. All of the sides involved have their less than redeeming qualities. Some just have more than others. So I see the split less as good-bad and more as bad-less bad.

Skriker

Kroothawk wrote:
And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.

Brother Coa wrote:
Well they can, if they summon entire order against one Chapter they can surely cleanse them. ( One order of Sisters have 2 - 3000 Sisters )


.

Aye, they did try to attack Fenris and the fact they managed to leave alive at all is probably indicitive that against a less powerful/awesome chapter they could do it.

A bit off topic, but where did you get the 2-3000 figure? When I was reading Faith and Fire n Hammer and Anvil there seemed to be hundreds of Battle sisters just on single planets as basic garrisons. Do you mean an Order as in, like the Order of Our Martyred Lady or White Rose, or do you mean something else?

Totalwar1402 wrote:
Aye, they did try to attack Fenris and the fact they managed to leave alive at all is probably indicitive that against a less powerful/awesome chapter they could do it.

Still didn't read that story, I don't want to.

A bit off topic, but where did you get the 2-3000 figure? When I was reading Faith and Fire n Hammer and Anvil there seemed to be hundreds of Battle sisters just on single planets as basic garrisons. Do you mean an Order as in, like the Order of Our Martyred Lady or White Rose, or do you mean something else?

Major Orders ( Our Matured Lady, Bloody Rose ) have several thousand Sisters while smaller ones have several hundred, or even less then hundred.

Why do these threads pop up like every single week? This is like the politics section of yahoo answers.

No one is badand everyone is bad. bad is irrelevant. Each race protects its people and their interests, just like modern armies right here on earth do.

Kilkrazy wrote:

Totalwar1402 wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Umm...having them in two camps isn't genocide.

Unless you are hating on Dorms?

And with all this "Are imperials evil?" stuff, I would just like to pint out that the whole SM thing where they use their anger and hatred and stuff sounds a lot like the dark side of the force.

In fact the Empire from SW seems actually less evil then the IoM

Article 2 of the UN Convention defines genocide as

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2

Tau did this by splitting male and female humans in a camp, not really the same as dorms in a uni campus because thats totally voluntary, done by a small part of a society and not forcibly imposed on the entirity of a population by a foriegn power. Unless you're saying the campus staff are foriegn devils.

Segregated imprisonment of PoWs isn't a case of Article 2 (d).

Aren't the people in question civilians?


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Kroothawk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Is this segregation thing actually stated or is it just a fan theory?

No, it's the same text of the PC game, with the Imperial narrator wondering why the population growth declines giving several explanations, first explanation that men and women are in separate camps, then speculating about a possible sterilization project. BTW the same company made Sororitas execute all Imperial Guard and Space Marines in the Sororitas ending of the next expansion DOW Soul Storm. So the writers are a subtle bunch.

And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.
2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

That's because the SoBs won in that version of reality. SoBs wiping out large swathes of people is not out of character for them.

Yes they are. Adn why are we bringing UN Convention laws here?
Tau never heard about Earth, not to mention UN and their rules.

Brother Coa wrote:Yes they are. Adn why are we bringing UN Convention laws here?
Tau never heard about Earth, not to mention UN and their rules.

The Tau love Geneva, Switzerland.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Yes they are. Adn why are we bringing UN Convention laws here?
Tau never heard about Earth, not to mention UN and their rules.

The Tau love Geneva, Switzerland.

We all saw that on Nimbosa.

Brother Coa wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

Kroothawk wrote:1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.

Well they can, if they summon entire order against one Chapter they can surely cleanse them. ( One order of Sisters have 2 - 3000 Sisters )

Kroothawk wrote:2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

True to that, but that was also mentioned in BL book Xenobilogy, I think. Maybe I mentioned that but I also said: "Without more fluff this remains merrily a speculation."
And that thing being mentioned in two different sources is not just something random written. But without more fluff we can't say anything.

1.) Please get the quotes right. Don't post my posts as yours and vice versa.
2.) Don't make guesses about books, whose title you don't even know. And no, no sterilization mentioned in the book Xenology. And showing Ethereals with feet instead of hooves, it is not the best source.
3.) Yes, you mentioned it unconditioned in your "Tau are racist" thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361942.page

They have pacified Humans on conquered worlds, to prevent them in reproducing

Samus_aran115 wrote:Why do these threads pop up like every single week?

Because 2-3 Dakka members feel obliged to troll Tau players every single week.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Aren't the people in question civilians?

Only humans fighting the Tau were put into reeducation camps.

Are you sure it wasn't humans who didn't sign up for The Greater Good?

Brother Coa wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:
And that is why we are only using Space Marine ending for Dark Crusade and Imperial Guard for Soulstorm for canon.

1.) The writers are the same. Only in some endings their lack of competence and respect for official 40k background is more obvious than in others. That's why you will not find weekly threads claiming that Sororitas can slaughter Space Marines armies anytime they want.

Well they can, if they summon entire order against one Chapter they can surely cleanse them. ( One order of Sisters have 2 - 3000 Sisters )

2.) The Tau ending is used in almost every Tau thread to denounce them. You have been one of those using it.

They are simply another race, fighting for the survival of their species. No race is bad in 40k apart from CSM, which are basically space marines turned to the dark gods. And daemons.

Kroothawk wrote:
3.) Yes, you mentioned it unconditioned in your "Tau are racist" thread: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/361942.page

They have pacified Humans on conquered worlds, to prevent them in reproducing

Well, in my defense, that was before I read a little more and learned that it was just a report from Ordo Xenos. Until they put/remove that in codex or official fluff it is debatable at best.
Not in Xenobiology? What about "Courage and Honor"? I know this was mentioned in BL book as well.

Courage and Honour made them out to be, yes Imperialists and arrogant, but genuinely of higher moral character than the Imperials. Even Ventirs attitude about the fatality of death and inevitable brutality of the Imperium is decried by an Etherial as immoral.

Spoilers
A better example of the Tau being dicks would be the second Last Chancers novel where the Tau actually hire Imperial Agents to murder their own commander (none other than Brightsword himself) because they don't want to risk the embarresment of removing a war hero. They then stab the Imperials in the back (don't be too sorry the Inq double double crosses the Tau). Its pretty brutal how brightsword dies. Brightsword has his suit disabled and is crawling out of it then Kage quite mercilessly runs over to him and uses his rifle to blugeon his brains out.

Brother Coa wrote:Not in Xenobiology? What about "Courage and Honor"? I know this was mentioned in BL book as well.

No, not in Xenology. Also not in "Courage and Honour" where a Tau army of drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge to cross a river But keep on guessing.

BTW you will enjoy the novel "Savage Scars": No plot, just classic bolter porn with Space Marines smashing Tau and Kroot to bloody gore in NO time. But even there the Sergeant admits that Tau fight honourably which is the opposite to evil.

Kroothawk wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:Not in Xenobiology? What about "Courage and Honor"? I know this was mentioned in BL book as well.

No, not in Xenology. Also not in "Courage and Honour" where a Tau army of drop ships and anti-grav tanks fights desperately over a bridge to cross a river But keep on guessing.

BTW you will enjoy the novel "Savage Scars": No plot, just classic bolter porn with Space Marines smashing Tau and Kroot to bloody gore in NO time. But even there the Sergeant admits that Tau fight honourably which is the opposite to evil.

I think I was told about that by a friend, is that book set in the Damocles Gulf Crusade?

Yes, the Imperium wants to exterminate a complete Tau homeworld (Dal'yth, famous for being cosmopolitan and trader-friendly). The Space Marine Sergeant avenges his brothers killed during the attempted genocide, finding time to crack jokes about how gory his armour got. Yeah, it's no fun to read BL novels when you search for information about Xenos. But if I don't read them, some people will try to tell everyone that exactly this novel contains proof for evil and/or Chaos corrupted Tau.