... hold onto your hats people !

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2120187a_Sisters_of_Battle_FAQ_Version_1_0_December_2011.pdf_

and for the work blocked/case it disappears

EDIT :

On the WFB side, looks like the TK FAQ has been updated too.... yes.. ?

EDIT :
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?categoryId=1000018&pIndex=1&aId=3000006&multiPageMode=true&start=2

Ogres new too yes ? And skaven updates too ?

that took a long time to read... not?

2 unit changes only?? (and clarification on multiple Acts of Faith)..

Well that's interesting last updated Jan_2011 they sat on it for a while

Cannot be attempted more than once? Sucks.

FAQ for SoB pretty much says what we expected all along. No great revelations, but at least now I won't have to hear "No, it's totally intentional so we don't suck!" anymore.

Any thoughts from the fantasy players? I'm running out the door...

RiTides wrote:Any thoughts from the fantasy players? I'm running out the door...

I for one, am finally glad we can put this to rest! Though this was apparently from Nov 30th so guess I'm a bit slow

Q: As Butchers and Slaughtermasters can take an ironfist, does this
mean that they can also wear magical armour? (p32)
A: Yes.

Yep, good ruling.

Same for Warpstone Tokens counting as power dice, essentially

Celestine's an IC now? That's good, at least.

Hmm. Retributors just got worse and St Celestine just got better. Interesting.

New to me were Tomb Kings, Skaven, Ogres, and Orcs & Goblins.

O&G: A couple questions I'd never thought to ask about. Also some fanatic/mangler movement answers that seem familiar but are still highlighted?

Ogres: Kenshin pointed out the big one. Another handy one is ironblasters being more or less defined as war machines (no stand & shoot, ironcurse icon works against them).

Skaven: Cracks Call *is* a template! Clarification on some of the goofier bell rules. WLC shots aren't stopped by monstrous infantry/cav/beasts. A weird ruling about how to place & fire the warpfire template.

Tomb Kings: Clarifications on how character ridden chariots interact with certain rules. No ironcurse against Light of Death. Chariots break steadfast and disrupt with ranks of three (some of these might be old news- I had 1.0 on my machine, and this TK FAQ is 1.2)

I think that's it for notables. There's other bits and pieces, so still worth a browse.

Edit: Ah, good point Nos- forgot the warpstone token debate.

And just for all of you that think that I am a complete apologist and have never said anything bad about SoB's new codex, this is a substantial nerf to faith and largely makes faith completely useless.

Now that doesn't really hurt the army since faith has been less and less important since the WD codex came out, but the 'keep rolling until you got it' was a cool mechanic.

I am disappointed.

Hmm...so still no clarification on Tomb Princes with Fencers Blades conferring their WS on their unit?

Alright! Slaughtermaster with armor! I could have seen them ruling the other way, but still, to all those naysayers : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIA1_I9t4yg

The Greedy fist ruling is a bit unexpected.

I expected them to nerf the acts of faith, but it's a damn shame they actually made it happen. I know a few people that are going to be extremely frustrated when they hear of this.

They made Celestine even better. Was being 100 points under-costed not enough? Could they not admit to the typo? I think I would despise playing against the SoBs because of that one model. Thankfully I've never seen an SoB army before, so my rage is in check.

ShumaGorath wrote:They made Celestine even better. Was being 100 points under-costed not enough? Could they not admit to the typo? I think I would despise playing against the SoBs because of that one model. Thankfully I've never seen an SoB army before, so my rage is in check.

What typo? They did admit to the typo for StC. Unless you're trying to say the points cost is the typo... If that one model is really going to ruin the game for you, you might have larger problems.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:They made Celestine even better. Was being 100 points under-costed not enough? Could they not admit to the typo? I think I would despise playing against the SoBs because of that one model. Thankfully I've never seen an SoB army before, so my rage is in check.

What typo? They did admit to the typo for StC. Unless you're trying to say the points cost is the typo... If that one model is really going to ruin the game for you, you might have larger problems.

At 1500 or below Celestine is an unstoppable wrecking ball and is likely the most undercosted unit games workshop has produced in the last several additions. I don't play gray knights. I can't just whisk all my problems away with magic bs. She'd wreck my standard codex marines like theres no tomorrow. And yes, I believe that her cost is a typo. A 1 should be a two.

ShumaGorath wrote:At 1500 or below Celestine is an unstoppable wrecking ball and is likely the most undercosted unit games workshop has produced in the last several additions. I don't play gray knights. I can't just whisk all my problems away with magic bs. She'd wreck my standard codex marines like theres no tomorrow.

I think you misunderstand how Celestine actually functions in a real game.

She charges a marine unit. 6 Attacks, 4 Hit against WS 4. She kills 2 guys. You make your morale and she chills. She does this round after round, potentially getting lucky, or potentially taking a PF to the face. If she wins (or dies) she gets back up and charges something else. She is not a wrecking ball. She is an annoying scalpel that keeps jabbing into you and cannot be removed. Most importantly, she makes you irrational and distracts you from the rest of my army which is wrecking your standard codex marines like theres no tomorrow.

She is much more hilarious against GK or other high cost armies since she swings before them, kills a couple of their expensive minis and then dies, only to get up the following turn and do the same thing again and again. It costs them much more every time she kills a couple guys.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and if she was 215, she wouldn't be taken. Although if you give her Eternal Warrior, I'd let you go to 215.

I think right now she is at a pretty good place points wise. She helps balance the rest of the codex.

Yay on the Ogre Kingdoms stuff!!!


But I'm horribly disappointed in the Sister of Battle faith nerf...

So other armies get massive army wide rules (ATSKNF, stubborn/combat tactics/etc) and sisters get a 6+ invul save...and a faith system that was almost useless before this... yay.

*sigh* And I'll still play the army... but now I will field St Celestine to make up for the other deficiencies in the army...

Short read on SoB FAQ. I was hoping at least for a couple amendments that would make them suck less. Glad they cleared up Saint Celestine's status.

Noticed they haven't changed WD August 2011 mislabled image of "Retributor with Heavy Bolter" when in fact she's holding a Multimelta. Perhaps it will confuse the heck out opponents with WYSIWYG.

I think you misunderstand how Celestine actually functions in a real game.

No. Not really.

She charges a marine unit. 6 Attacks, 4 Hit against WS 4. She kills 2 guys.

Heavy flamer hits 5-6 and kills 2 before that. She charges, kills 2 with average rolls, PF likely fails its 33% chance to down her. Next round she kills two more. She either gets splatted or uses hit and run. Next round she uses the flamer and charges again, the squad has two models left and shes payed for herself 50% over.

She has on average two more chances to 2-round kill full squads.

She is not a wrecking ball. She is an annoying scalpel that keeps jabbing into you and cannot be removed.

Thats... Wrong. A character with a heavy flamer and that many poisoned power weapon attacks is a killing machine. She does more damage on average per turn than lysander.

Most importantly, she makes you irrational and distracts you from the rest of my army which is wrecking your standard codex marines like theres no tomorrow.

Imagine if Kayvan shrike costed less then a marine captain with nothing but a power weapon. Imagine that he couldn't die. Give him a heavy flamer. You now have celestine. You can't possibly tell me that's not broken.

She is much more hilarious against GK or other high cost armies since she swings before them, kills a couple of their expensive minis and then dies, only to get up the following turn and do the same thing again and again. It costs them much more every time she kills a couple guys.

Then why isn't she severely undercosted?

Oh, and if she was 215, she wouldn't be taken. Although if you give her Eternal Warrior, I'd let you go to 215.

I don't think you understand the dynamics of this game very well.

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't think you understand the dynamics of this game very well.

Woah, slow down killer! No need to jump to personal attacks, we're having a difference of opinion on toy soldiers.

You have your opinion about the model, so go ahead and keep it. I will just say that my opinion is based on empirical facts gained from playing games for and against her. It is apparent that yours is based on theorycrafting. Take that as you will.

ShumaGorath wrote: *snippet from previous post*

Personally, even as a sister of battle player, I think she is underpointed. I think she should be in the 185 range, personally... But that is if we look at a single model in the vacuum of model vs. point cost.

Now if you toss her in with the rest of my army and compare it to the horrible horrible train wreck my SoB codex is, I think we're allowed 1 item to ATTEMPT to make up for the stupidity that was thrust upon us... as a whole, this codex sucks, but the one bright gleaming hope it has, is named St. Celestine, and my opponents will at least respect HER if they can't respect my Sisters of Battle.

Revarien wrote:Personally, even as a sister of battle player, I think she is underpointed. I think she should be in the 185 range, personally... But that is if we look at a single model in the vacuum of model vs. point cost.

Which, as we know, models in armies are not generally costed in a vacuum. One of the many reasons I think she is at the right points cost.

I also disagree that the codex is a trainwreck, but oh well. I think we're still in a good place, even post FAQ.

Revarien wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: *snippet from previous post*

Personally, even as a sister of battle player, I think she is underpointed. I think she should be in the 185 range, personally... But that is if we look at a single model in the vacuum of model vs. point cost.

Now if you toss her in with the rest of my army and compare it to the horrible horrible train wreck my SoB codex is, I think we're allowed 1 item to ATTEMPT to make up for the stupidity that was thrust upon us... as a whole, this codex sucks, but the one bright gleaming hope it has, is named St. Celestine, and my opponents will at least respect HER if they can't respect my Sisters of Battle.

I don't think one awful design decision really makes up for the other, especially considering how much of the HQ slot is invalidated by celestines existence.

On the Fantasy side: Also notable that the Greedy Fist apparently works at range. So the first time a boosted Caress of Laniph pops off, you're probably stripping all the magic levels off your target.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:I don't think you understand the dynamics of this game very well.

Woah, slow down killer! No need to jump to personal attacks, we're having a difference of opinion on toy soldiers.

You have your opinion about the model, so go ahead and keep it. I will just say that my opinion is based on empirical facts gained from playing games for and against her. It is apparent that yours is based on theorycrafting. Take that as you will.

You directly described a situation wherein she pays for herself consistently and well without the use of clever tactics or skill. A unit should not be a no brainer breadwinner with no realistic counters, thats flawed design. Something that book/pages possessed a lot of.

ShumaGorath wrote:You directly described a situation wherein she pays for herself consistently and well without the use of clever tactics or skill. A unit should not be a no brainer breadwinner with no realistic counters, thats flawed design. Something that book possessed a lot of.

Chuckle @ 'well without the use of clever tactics or skill. '

Charge her with a large stubborn, fearless or resilient unit. I.e. a squad of gaunts, ork boys or IG blob. Laugh as she is stuck in combat for the next 3 hours.

Again, play some games with her and see how it actually works. Much like the rest of the codex, it behaves differently than the interwebs thinks it does.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You directly described a situation wherein she pays for herself consistently and well without the use of clever tactics or skill. A unit should not be a no brainer breadwinner with no realistic counters, thats flawed design. Something that book possessed a lot of.

Chuckle @ 'well without the use of clever tactics or skill. '

Charge her with a large stubborn, fearless or resilient unit. I.e. a squad of gaunts, ork boys or IG blob. Laugh as she is stuck in combat for the next 3 hours.

Again, play some games with her and see how it actually works. Much like the rest of the codex, it behaves differently than the interwebs thinks it does.

You are aware of the fact that she has I7 and hit and run correct? She can't be tarpitted.

ShumaGorath wrote:You are aware of the fact that she has I7 and hit and run correct? She can't be tarpitted.

What Codex are you looking at? The WD Codex does not give her Hit and Run. You're thinking of Seraphim.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You are aware of the fact that she has I7 and hit and run correct? She can't be tarpitted.

What Codex are you looking at? The WD Codex does not give her Hit and Run. You're thinking of Seraphim.

Which half are you looking in?

Both.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:What Codex are you looking at? The WD Codex does not give her Hit and Run. You're thinking of Seraphim.

Which half are you looking in?

Both.

ShumaGorath wrote:Which half are you looking in?

I'm looking in both halves and she has it in neither half. Also you have to remember that she is Toughness 3. If she is hit by any strength 6 attack she bites it and then must roll to come back. She onl;y comes back 50% of the time. Her invulnerable save is only a 4+ so thats easy to fail as well.

ShumaGorath wrote:When I get home I'll look at it again. In all of our discussions in the local playground we've talked about the hit and run aspect. We've looked it up to show people more then once. That said I can't verify, so we could all be terribly wrong.

andrewm9 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Which half are you looking in?

I'm looking in both halves and she has it in neither half. Also you have to remember that she is Toughness 3. If she is hit by any strength 6 attack she bites it and then must roll to come back. She onl;y comes back 50% of the time. Her invulnerable save is only a 4+ so thats easy to fail as well.

I just downloaded it. Yeah, she doesn't have hit and run. I guess I was remembering the context of her dying and then escaping tarpit units that way. She had it in the previous book, but it looks like she lost it. That said, a 2+/4+ 3 wound model is not easy to kill. The one point toughness difference is not hugely influential, outside of the scatter laser or the off plasma shot there wasn't much that was going to insta kill her that wouldn't instakill anything up to 70 points above her cost anyway and getting to come back to life every turn is in most ways better then EW. She's not the most damaging character in the game but you pay often times half what you would for one of those characters and she's damn close.

Unstoppabe wrecking ball?

Zogwort, unless she's immune to psyker powers (i don't have the wd codex) - now she's a squishy squig. (my fave option, but then i play orks )

S 6 weapons? She's dead, Jim. She may come back, but a single solid hit will put her down again if she fails the save.

As codexmarines try hitting her with a devestator squad from halfway across the board, and watch her plummet. Hell, enough bolter fire would put her down hard (read about a squad's worth).

If she's somehow getting into CC with you and you're failing to PF her down have a unit or two just waiting for her to hit and run out at the end of her turn, when she charged you, as she'll be standing somewhere, looking foolish, unless there's a ton of scenery on the board and/or the other player is rolling well. Hit and run CAN get you far from a combat, or leave you standing a few inches away, witht he unit you just left having you in their gunsights.

Zogwort would replace her with a Squig and she'd get back up next turn leaving the squig there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And S6 is pretty common. She dies a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The good news is that she absorbs a lot of fire from the rest of your army. I would never run her with a squad now because she is such a good distraction.

Zogwort, unless she's immune to psyker powers (i don't have the wd codex) - now she's a squishy squig. (my fave option, but then i play orks )

This update clarified that she comes back from that. You just gave them a kill point.

Nope.

When you squig someone you don't kill them, they become a squig and lose all previous abilities.

The unit is never removed from play or removed as a casualty. It is transformed into a living, and ticked off, squig, losing it's special rules and wargear along the way.

'if the ork player scores higher the target model is replaced with an angry squig under the control of your opponent. You must provide the squig model, It has the profile below (leaving that out for ease of typing) and no wargear or special rules, but is an independent character that counts as infantry' PG 61 Ork Codex.

Even if you kill the squig, it's not coming back as celestine, as the special rule went byebye. She's not Celestine, any more.


*edit for clarity/spelling*

The model was replaced by a squig. Hence Celestine was removed from play and replaced by a squig. She'll be back on a 4+ next turn.

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

No, she wont , IMO, but you're welcome to disagree.

The model is transformed into a squig, and loses its special rule allowing it to reappear. The unit is not removed from play, it's replaced. It has it's statline and abilities altered.

We won't agree on this one without a firm faq ruling though, so i'll just leave it up to the TO or dice for it if it ever comes up. The Ork FAQ doesn't provide any hints either way.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*** addendum***

If she pops up from no-where, as herself, what happens to the squig that was her body before it transformed?

Squig farm! Capture celestine, and kill her again and again for pleasure and profit

I think Pretre is correct on this one, but I would just avoid Zogwort to avoid this in a game

Ascalam wrote:If she pops up from no-where, as herself, what happens to the squig that was her body before it transformed?

Squig farm! Capture celestine, and kill her again and again for pleasure and profit

Basically. I agree to disagree, but my argument goes off of the fact that it doesn't say 'Celestine with Squig Stats' but 'replace Celestine with a Squig'.

I see Zogwort so rarely, that I doubt it will matter.

I don't think she is "removed ", I think she is "replaced". Key difference there, as this:

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

Says nothing about being replaced, only removed. So, she couldn't come back (as she is/was a squig).

Am I getting this right?

CpatTom wrote:Am I getting this right?

Ascalam is right; we won't agree.

The FAQ answer opened up a can of worms that cannot easily be resolved. If you actually see Zogwort on the table, discuss with your opponent or dice off for an answer.

*shrug*

I see SOB so rarely i doubt it will either

It would be nice to get some utility out of the old duffer, as many of the recent SC's aren't IC's, and they're usually the ones i'd like to squig (mephiston, for example..)

Frankly, even if she's immuneish to the curse it would still be a fun way to 'kill' her (assuming that your take is correct and she CAN come back), as her comeback isn't guaranteed

K. I won't ever have this issue, as I am a tau player, just curious really.

Btw, Gift of Chaos has much clearer language and says that the model is removed as a casualty and replaced by a Chaos Spawn. Similar but different.

I think Boon of Mutation is the same.

Zog's curse isn't, which could either mean that the difference is deliberate, or that they need to hire a proofreader...

Hi,
On a side note but on the same subject of the new FAQs, I was redownloading the Ogre Kingdoms FAQ on my main computer and and noticed they have updated it again to 2.0, the 1.0 was added this morning I believe. In it they added a note from Jervis Johnston with reguards to the ironfist rule question.

Buffytrek wrote:Hi,
On a side note but on the same subject of the new FAQs, I was redownloading the Ogre Kingdoms FAQ on my main computer and and noticed they have updated it again to 2.0, the 1.0 was added this morning I believe. In it they added a note from Jervis Johnston with reguards to the ironfist rule question.

Spoiler:

Designers Note: I have to hold my hands up for not spotting that
allowing a Butcher or Slaughtermaster to take an ironfist, would also
allow them to take magic armour. Allowing them access to magic
armour certainly wasn’t my intention, and it’s something we’ll
certainly fix when we do the next edition of the Ogre Kingdoms army
book. However, after much debate, we’ve decided that it does not
give the Ogres an unfair advantage, so we’ve decided to leave the
rule as it is written for the time being. That said, I’d personally
recommend that you avoid giving your Butchers and
Slaughtermasters magic armour – doing otherwise goes against the
spirit, if not the letter, of the rule.
Jervis Johnson 7/12/2011

"certainly" ? No Jervis... print is certain....intentions are not.

I know even more strange considering I remember him a few months back in a White Dwarf article discussing how to separate game rules from fluffy/ in character rules and mechanics. Then at the end he challenged us to think about this if we design games or rules. Someone should have proof read the codex a little better before they sent it out, or change the rule to what the fluffy way they had intended.

Really Jervis? Make up your mind! Just tell us what it was meant to be and make the change! Don't change it to one thing and then tell us how you want it to be something else!

Uggh. Clarity in rules does not have to be difficult, just requires time, proofreading and playtesting.

Ascalam wrote:I think Boon of Mutation is the same.

Zog's curse isn't, which could either mean that the difference is deliberate, or that they need to hire a proofreader...

Boon of Mutation clarifies model is both replaced and removed as casualty, which triggers Miraculous Intervention. Zog's curse doesn't specify remove from play or as casualty. Furthermore, codex Daemons does not set a precedence for other codices.

I'd have to vote in favor of Zog's curse supersede Saint Celestine's Miraculous Intervention.

Jervis Johnson wrote:That said, I’d personally recommend that you avoid giving your Butchers and Slaughtermasters magic armour – doing otherwise goes against the spirit, if not the letter, of the rule.

So, exactly how does a "personal recommendation" work in a tournament environment?

It gets ignored in favour of magically platemailed ogres, of course

GW.. gotta love 'em...

CpatTom wrote:I don't think she is "removed ", I think she is "replaced". Key difference there, as this:

Q: Can Saint Celestine use her Miraculous Intervention
special rule against attacks that remove models from
play? (White Dwarf, August 2011, Page 103)
A: Yes.

Says nothing about being replaced, only removed. So, she couldn't come back (as she is/was a squig).

Am I getting this right?

I am quoting CpatTom because at the end of the day, I think his summation is what the whole debate is about regarding this rule; semantics. It also touches upon what Jervis himself said, about the spirit versus the letter of the rules. In a case of rule lawyer debate on this, I guess it would be "Did the model leave the table? Was the model of StC taken off of the table and out of play? Yes? Then it was 'removed.' The argument that it was 'replaced' only means that after the model was 'removed' another was put down where it was; so it was still 'removed' as part of being 'replaced.' Now if you can find a way to magically transform the model into a Squig without it leaving the table, why then I am all too happy to agree that she's gone because the model wasn't 'removed' as part of being 'replaced.'"
The crux here being that the rule on StC doesn't discuss the "unit" it discusses the model. IE the stance that the curse does not remove the unit from play can be argued as irrelevant since StC's rule is about the game status of the model, not the unit it represents. A fine hair to split, I grant you; but seeing as how the whole debate is over the semantic difference between "replaced" vs "removed" (in a game setting where the model must be removed in order to be replaced) its no more retentive a stance than any other.

I applaud the idea of the curse, but do have to wonder if it isn't rule lawyering to use the letter against the spirit. In the end, I'd ask GW about it, as I think it would be an interesting mechanic if it did work that way (to say nothing of saving many players potential headache).
Baring a definitive ruling by them, in any game where I faced it, I'd suggest a compromise of both (as in the Squig farm remark). "Yes, she can come back. Yes, each time she's changed, add another Squig to the table."

Jerrous Illandry wrote:I think his summation is what the whole debate is about regarding this rule; semantics.

I lol'd.

Half the rules debates on YMDC are over semantics.

The rules are often interpretable either way, ans semantic arguments over the metaphorical meaning of the work 'and' ensue..

It's also hard to know the 'spirit of the rule' without actuallt talking to the designer. Search for SAG 6,6, result rules debates or the old Livin Metal debates...

When in doubt, discuss with your opponent. Dice off if necessary.

pretre wrote:

Jerrous Illandry wrote:I think his summation is what the whole debate is about regarding this rule; semantics.

I lol'd.

I know, I know; just call me Cpt. Obvious.

Buffytrek wrote:Hi,
On a side note but on the same subject of the new FAQs, I was redownloading the Ogre Kingdoms FAQ on my main computer and and noticed they have updated it again to 2.0, the 1.0 was added this morning I believe. In it they added a note from Jervis Johnston with reguards to the ironfist rule question.

Spoiler:

Designers Note: I have to hold my hands up for not spotting that
allowing a Butcher or Slaughtermaster to take an ironfist, would also
allow them to take magic armour. Allowing them access to magic
armour certainly wasn’t my intention, and it’s something we’ll
certainly fix when we do the next edition of the Ogre Kingdoms army
book. However, after much debate, we’ve decided that it does not
give the Ogres an unfair advantage, so we’ve decided to leave the
rule as it is written for the time being. That said, I’d personally
recommend that you avoid giving your Butchers and
Slaughtermasters magic armour – doing otherwise goes against the
spirit, if not the letter, of the rule.
Jervis Johnson 7/12/2011

So, to summarise:

"I fethed up and decided that it needs to be fixed, but we're not going to fix it, instead you can use it because it doesn't give you an unfair advantage, but you should be ashamed if you do."

Jervis Johnson - The Walking Contradiction

Suddenly i feel so happy i dont start the planned SoB army. Wtf those rule specialists are thinking? The only thing SoB had who give them some power, they took out? Well, i will keep the old witch hunters codex, and use Imperial Armor for Vehicles...

That white dwarf "codex" was a fail...

Considering they specifically say that Saint Celistine gives units she enters +1 to their faith roll, it was pretty obvious that the half of the codex that forgot the IC rule was the incorrect part.

Sounds to me that Jervis wasn't very happy that the team agreed to something he didn't agree with.. so he had to update the FAQ with his own response. Sounds like the old dark angels FAQ

"After much discussion we've decided to give the middle finger to the dark angels, however, in consolation we're allowing demon hunters and space wolves to use the newest wargear"

ShumaGorath wrote:They made Celestine even better. Was being 100 points under-costed not enough? Could they not admit to the typo? I think I would despise playing against the SoBs because of that one model. Thankfully I've never seen an SoB army before, so my rage is in check.

Compared to some game breaking special characters like Bjorn Stormcaller who can (and I have seen ) break whole armies single handed, a T3 model without eternal warrior and who can only wound on a 4+ isn't gong to achieve much aside from being an irritation. In fact you can quite easily tool a generic Dark Eldar archon with agoniser and shadowfield to give you a unit with the same killing power and an invulnerable save of 2+.. That model isn't going to break an army any time soon, neither is Celestine, and there are plenty of other cheap OMG powers that are allowed into the game: chiefly the unfair instant death powers like

turning characters into squigs psychic power
Jaws of the world wolf
Necron labyrinth which grey knights can also get, along with every soldier having an instant death weapon.
The Chaos Spawn power

They all make it extremely easy to wipe out expensive units for negligible cost and with incredible chances of success. With all that cheese in the game already, one crappy special character being a bit low in points is not really worth much comment.

I don't like these abilities, I think they're frankly dickish but I won't refuse to play somebody because of that fact; its GW fault for making silly abilities that can be easily abused. Not liking the idea of playing a SOB army because of one unit is pretty silly. Just shoot their few battle conclaves then hit the rest with elite CC units with power weapons or rending; simple as .

Zogworts curse only works if you win a dice off against your opponent, the target MUST be an IC, and it bounces right off psychic defense. Try it VS eldar and watch Zogwort kill himself. Not that dickish, especially since it has a pitiful range, and you still need to pass a psychic test to use it. It doesn't kill you either, it jst tranforms you. I've had Zoggy killed by the squig that used be be an IC a few times.

JOTWW has a special place of hate in my heart.

Not been up against the Grey Knights/Necron labyrinth yet, as no-one seems to take them

Spawning someone is an expensive upgrade (daemons book anyway, i don't have the CSM one) available to very few units. The units that get to take it have their own glaring weaknesses. (Tzeentch units are very shooty, and absolutely sad in CC).

If you're giving it to a daemon prince you're leaving out other useful abilities or pricing yourself out of utility. t also has a max range of 6'', and you have to provide the spawn model to use it fully. If you do make a spawn, and then the enemy kills it you just handed him 40 VP and/or a kill point.

It's powerful, yes, but unlike JOTWW it's short ranged as hell, spendy and a rare sight on the battlefield. as it can only kill one model at a time, and a bog standard marine will pass the test 2 times out of three, let alone anyone tougher that you might want out of the way.

Incredible chance of success?

50/50 on zog's curse, IF he can get within 18'' and you are an IC, assuming he can even get the power off and you have no psychic defense.

Boon of Mutation- 1 in 3 chance on T 4, assuming you can get within 6''


OP, i'm sure...

Totalwar1402 wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:They made Celestine even better. Was being 100 points under-costed not enough? Could they not admit to the typo? I think I would despise playing against the SoBs because of that one model. Thankfully I've never seen an SoB army before, so my rage is in check.

Compared to some game breaking special characters like Bjorn Stormcaller who can (and I have seen ) break whole armies single handed, a T3 model without eternal warrior and who can only wound on a 4+ isn't gong to achieve much aside from being an irritation. In fact you can quite easily tool a generic Dark Eldar archon with agoniser and shadowfield to give you a unit with the same killing power and an invulnerable save of 2+.. That model isn't going to break an army any time soon, neither is Celestine, and there are plenty of other cheap OMG powers that are allowed into the game: chiefly the unfair instant death powers like

turning characters into squigs psychic power
Jaws of the world wolf
Necron labyrinth which grey knights can also get, along with every soldier having an instant death weapon.
The Chaos Spawn power

They all make it extremely easy to wipe out expensive units for negligible cost and with incredible chances of success. With all that cheese in the game already, one crappy special character being a bit low in points is not really worth much comment.

I don't like these abilities, I think they're frankly dickish but I won't refuse to play somebody because of that fact; its GW fault for making silly abilities that can be easily abused. Not liking the idea of playing a SOB army because of one unit is pretty silly. Just shoot their few battle conclaves then hit the rest with elite CC units with power weapons or rending; simple as .

bjorn is more then TWICE celestines point cost and requires a transport and a squad to protect him (+35+180) to function well. All together that's the cost of almost four saint celestines. That same archon is going to cost ~50 points more and he requires a squad and transport as well putting him far over. Every one of your listed powers can only kill her for as long as you don't roll a 4+ (she'll come back 3.5 times in a long game on average if they kill her constantly. Every unit capable of using one of those powers costs more then celestine and when she gets up she will kill the majority of them by herself. Celestine is a troll of a character that rolls over armies at low point values. At high point values she has to settle for averagely paying for herself several times over, but boo too to that.

Hahaha, a buff to St. Celestine?! Looks like she's officially the best HQ in the game now...

Fetterkey wrote:Hahaha, a buff to St. Celestine?! Looks like she's officially the best HQ in the game now...

*sigh* in the worse army....

I wouldn't say that. I actually think the new Sisters are extremely good, and if not for the fact that the models are so dang expensive I would strongly consider starting a Sisters army myself! There are a lot of really, really strong units in that Codex.

I am amazed, that majority of people didn't think she was IC. A unique HQ and not an IC?

I did revive her on the table edge when she one time ran off the board w/ Seraphim. Nothing new really.

Now I only have to buy that one Simulacrum Imperialis for Retributors...

Ascalam wrote:Zogworts curse only works if you win a dice off against your opponent, the target MUST be an IC, and it bounces right off psychic defense. Try it VS eldar and watch Zogwort kill himself. Not that dickish, especially since it has a pitiful range, and you still need to pass a psychic test to use it. It doesn't kill you either, it jst tranforms you. I've had Zoggy killed by the squig that used be be an IC a few times.

JOTWW has a special place of hate in my heart.

Not been up against the Grey Knights/Necron labyrinth yet, as no-one seems to take them

Spawning someone is an expensive upgrade (daemons book anyway, i don't have the CSM one) available to very few units. The units that get to take it have their own glaring weaknesses. (Tzeentch units are very shooty, and absolutely sad in CC).

If you're giving it to a daemon prince you're leaving out other useful abilities or pricing yourself out of utility. t also has a max range of 6'', and you have to provide the spawn model to use it fully. If you do make a spawn, and then the enemy kills it you just handed him 40 VP and/or a kill point.

It's powerful, yes, but unlike JOTWW it's short ranged as hell, spendy and a rare sight on the battlefield. as it can only kill one model at a time, and a bog standard marine will pass the test 2 times out of three, let alone anyone tougher that you might want out of the way.

Incredible chance of success?

50/50 on zog's curse, IF he can get within 18'' and you are an IC, assuming he can even get the power off and you have no psychic defense.

Boon of Mutation- 1 in 3 chance on T 4, assuming you can get within 6''


OP, i'm sure...

One in three or 50/50 to insta kill an IC, usually the most expensive unit in your army, is actually pretty decent. Most characters wouldn't mind those odds in CC against the sort of 100-250pts models you're refering to and how many other shooting attacks have those odds short of plasma spam. 18'' radius is bigger than you would think, thats probably a third of the board once you're further in. It irks me more that these are meant to be 'fun' powers that add to the games character but are really just a way of assasinating high point units.

Anyway, off topic, its good that they've gotten a FAQ up to give the army some love. Have they even brought the PDF online yet?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShumaGorath wrote:[
bjorn is more then TWICE celestines point cost and requires a transport and a squad to protect him (+35+180) to function well. All together that's the cost of almost four saint celestines. That same archon is going to cost ~50 points more and he requires a squad and transport as well putting him far over. Every one of your listed powers can only kill her for as long as you don't roll a 4+ (she'll come back 3.5 times in a long game on average if they kill her constantly. Every unit capable of using one of those powers costs more then celestine and when she gets up she will kill the majority of them by herself. Celestine is a troll of a character that rolls over armies at low point values. At high point values she has to settle for averagely paying for herself several times over, but boo too to that.

Bjorn stormcaller, yes with his squad etc, is a god! He killed 250 hormagaunts and twenty gargoyles in a apocalypse game with those beardy ( ) powers.

Roll over? She has five maybe six attacks that wound on a 4+. That is not good. In the previous codex she could kill t3 on a 2+ or marines on a 3+. Thats a nerf. Yes the Archon is a bit over her in points, and he needs support to be viable because he lacks killing power, exactly what Celestine does not have, hence why they changed the rules to let her go with a squad of seraphim. Look, if I can't roll over an army with my five attack Archon, then how can Celestine? A plasma gun can instant kill her quite easily and in CC most marines can ignore morale and just keep chipping away whilst the rest of the SOB is butchered. Which army do you collect that could get rolled over by Celestine? If its Tau then , you're meant to lose in CC to everything; guard included.

Actually no, as the poster above claimed, the squig guy would have a shooting attack that could turn her into a squig and since technically shes not dead but just turned into a squig can never come back. The same goes for the Chaos spawn (even more outragious considering who it is!) as technically shes not dead.

Anyway, my main point was that annoying things in other armies shouldn't stop you from playing them.

I'm gunna assume that you guys mean Njal; Bjorn is the Ven. Dread.

Fetterkey wrote:I wouldn't say that. I actually think the new Sisters are extremely good, and if not for the fact that the models are so dang expensive I would strongly consider starting a Sisters army myself! There are a lot of really, really strong units in that Codex.

Agreed. The sisters codex is pretty competitive. So far I've seen the new book tear through about 3 GK armies (although one loss on turn 5 to end of game), draw to green tide, win to shooty tyranids, win against BA and win against BW Orks. That's just two tournaments since I retooled my army. (Three of those wins were my buddy who borrowed the army and played it for the first time, winning best general.) 5 Wins, 1 Draw, 1 loss is pretty good and I'm still at less than 15 games of practice.

Avatar 720 wrote:I'm gunna assume that you guys mean Njal; Bjorn is the Ven. Dread.

That rhino riding, stormcalling, raven having ven dread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AdeptSister wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Hahaha, a buff to St. Celestine?! Looks like she's officially the best HQ in the game now...

*sigh* in the worse army....

I'd hesitate to say that sisters are worse then vanilla marines who exist off the power of assault termies alone or eldar who win well in exactly one mission type against one specific kind of army.

meh_ wrote:I am amazed, that majority of people didn't think she was IC. A unique HQ and not an IC?

I did revive her on the table edge when she one time ran off the board w/ Seraphim. Nothing new really.

Now I only have to buy that one Simulacrum Imperialis for Retributors...

Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

Ascalam wrote:Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

None of those have rules showing what happens when they join a unit and Independent Character in their Bestiary section.

pretre wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

None of those have rules showing what happens when they join a unit and Independent Character in their Bestiary section.

I think the swarmlord does.

Ascalam wrote:

meh_ wrote:I am amazed, that majority of people didn't think she was IC. A unique HQ and not an IC?

I did revive her on the table edge when she one time ran off the board w/ Seraphim. Nothing new really.

Now I only have to buy that one Simulacrum Imperialis for Retributors...

Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

However The Swarmlord, Skarbrand, Ku'gath and Fateweaver are Monstrous Creatures.

The Swarmlord can also join a unit of Tyrant Guard.

The only 'special' ones are The Masque, Mephiston and The Sanguinor.

And the last two practically have Monstrous Creature statlines!

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

None of those have rules showing what happens when they join a unit and Independent Character in their Bestiary section.

I think the swarmlord does.

He has neither. Tyrant Guard tell you how to attach to Swarmy/Tyrant.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

None of those have rules showing what happens when they join a unit and Independent Character in their Bestiary section.

I think the swarmlord does.

He has neither. Tyrant Guard tell you how to attach to Swarmy/Tyrant.

Thats similar.

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

pretre wrote:None of those have rules showing what happens when they join a unit and Independent Character in their Bestiary section.

I think the swarmlord does.

He has neither. Tyrant Guard tell you how to attach to Swarmy/Tyrant.

Thats similar.

And... You just arguing for giggles?

The point was that none of those were in the situation that Celestine was in pre-FAQ. The point stands because none of them are still in that situation.

Not a lot, but at least its some...

pretre wrote:And just for all of you that think that I am a complete apologist and have never said anything bad about SoB's new codex, this is a substantial nerf to faith and largely makes faith completely useless.

Now that doesn't really hurt the army since faith has been less and less important since the WD codex came out, but the 'keep rolling until you got it' was a cool mechanic.

I don't entirely agree, it hurts the army a little bit. I think it diminishes Uriah's re-roll ability (I don't really care about that), and it makes things more expensive. I can see after a few games where I've repeatedly failed my Retributor or Dominion squad's faith rolls I'm going to start to buy those Simluacra, and at 20pts per, it's going to add up.

I would have been ok with a "middle ground" solution where you can only successfully attempt an AoF once per turn.

If you wanna talk about unbelievablely annoying "come back to life" units is Justicar Thawn. You can never get that fat jerk off objectives.

Amerikon wrote:

pretre wrote:And just for all of you that think that I am a complete apologist and have never said anything bad about SoB's new codex, this is a substantial nerf to faith and largely makes faith completely useless.

Now that doesn't really hurt the army since faith has been less and less important since the WD codex came out, but the 'keep rolling until you got it' was a cool mechanic.

I don't entirely agree, it hurts the army a little bit. I think it diminishes Uriah's re-roll ability (I don't really care about that), and it makes things more expensive. I can see after a few games where I've repeatedly failed my Retributor or Dominion squad's faith rolls I'm going to start to buy those Simluacra, and at 20pts per, it's going to add up.

I would have been ok with a "middle ground" solution where you can only successfully attempt an AoF once per turn.

Uriah's reroll only works at the beginning of the turn for how many faith you get. I guess if faith is less important though, you are right. Simulacrum are spendy, but keep in mind that Kyrinov gets one for free, if you're feeling wacky.

I also would have been okay with that.

DarkStarSabre wrote:

Ascalam wrote:

meh_ wrote:I am amazed, that majority of people didn't think she was IC. A unique HQ and not an IC?

I did revive her on the table edge when she one time ran off the board w/ Seraphim. Nothing new really.

Now I only have to buy that one Simulacrum Imperialis for Retributors...

Mephiston isn't an IC, Neither is the Swarm Lord, The Sanguinor, Skarbrand, Ku'gath, Fateweaver, The Masque...

There are a few out there..

However The Swarmlord, Skarbrand, Ku'gath and Fateweaver are Monstrous Creatures.

The Swarmlord can also join a unit of Tyrant Guard.

The only 'special' ones are The Masque, Mephiston and The Sanguinor.

And the last two practically have Monstrous Creature statlines!

Yup, but the point still stands. They are unique SC's that aren't IC's, which is what meh_ was finding laughable that people might consider possible

I'd not have been shocked if she had been ruled as non-IC the same as the Sanguinor (despite the fact that her WH self was an IC), given that he's basically a gold-plated jack of her concept in the first place ...

There's probably a few others out there, but i didn't have every codex.

There have been MC IC's (albiet with rules crippling the IC status) before also, in the original C'tan.

Re-pasting it from an earlier post because its worth venting about.

Designers Note: I have to hold my hands up for not spotting that
allowing a Butcher or Slaughtermaster to take an ironfist, would also
allow them to take magic armour. Allowing them access to magic
armour certainly wasn’t my intention, and it’s something we’ll
certainly fix when we do the next edition of the Ogre Kingdoms army
book. However, after much debate, we’ve decided that it does not
give the Ogres an unfair advantage, so we’ve decided to leave the
rule as it is written for the time being. That said, I’d personally
recommend that you avoid giving your Butchers and
Slaughtermasters magic armour – doing otherwise goes against the
spirit, if not the letter, of the rule.
Jervis Johnson 7/12/2011

A friend and i were talking about this earlier and we both came to the same conclusion. So what GW is saying with this one that "hey, were sorry we made it so ambiguous. So instead of doing what we did for the Imperial Guard Mortar/master of ordinance FAQ and Tyranid shadow in the warp/Doom of Malan'ti were just going to let this one ride. And on top of that you should feel shame for using it this way." Who says this?!?!?!?!?! Why didn't they just say since an ironfist is a shield that they could only take a magic shield?!?!?!

What the feth?!?!?!?!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Revarien wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: *snippet from previous post*

Personally, even as a sister of battle player, I think she is underpointed. I think she should be in the 185 range, personally... But that is if we look at a single model in the vacuum of model vs. point cost.

Now if you toss her in with the rest of my army and compare it to the horrible horrible train wreck my SoB codex is, I think we're allowed 1 item to ATTEMPT to make up for the stupidity that was thrust upon us... as a whole, this codex sucks, but the one bright gleaming hope it has, is named St. Celestine, and my opponents will at least respect HER if they can't respect my Sisters of Battle.

I don't think one awful design decision really makes up for the other, especially considering how much of the HQ slot is invalidated by celestines existence.

Does this mean I shouldn't field my Canoness?

In your words Shummy, what exactly is wrong with Celestine?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm actually asking.

H.B.M.C. wrote:In your words Shummy, what exactly is wrong with Celestine?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm actually asking.

She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

ShumaGorath wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:In your words Shummy, what exactly is wrong with Celestine?

I'm not trying to be contrary, I'm actually asking.

She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

H.B.M.C. was asking your opinion, so don't mince words. Tell us how you really feel.

I have played extensively with the sisters WD dex including a couple of tourneys at 1.75k.

My experience is that Celestine tends to dominate games at 1k or so, (especially C&C where she is the best objective-contestor you could concieve) but her influence drops off quite a bit at higher points levels with so many S6+ shots and power claw/fists flying around. Also, she doesn't like walkers or vehicles

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

Although I disagree with ShumaGorath's central premise, Celestine is good for the following reasons:
- High Mobility
- Heavy Flamer
- 4+ Wound Power weapon with WS7 I7 and 6 attacks on the charge
- 2+/4++
- Never dies.

Basically, you send her towards your opponent and either they 'waste' fire on her or they don't. Either way, she will get to them and will tie up or kill one or more units.

She is extremely vulnerable to high strength shooting and powerfists and has a tendency to yoyo a lot, but generally is a great distraction / disruption unit.

pretre wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

Although I disagree with ShumaGorath's central premise, Celestine is good for the following reasons:
- High Mobility
- Heavy Flamer
- 4+ Wound Power weapon with WS7 I7 and 6 attacks on the charge
- 2+/4++
- Never dies.

Basically, you send her towards your opponent and either they 'waste' fire on her or they don't. Either way, she will get to them and will tie up or kill one or more units.

She is extremely vulnerable to high strength shooting and powerfists and has a tendency to yoyo a lot, but generally is a great distraction / disruption unit.

How is a unit that can't die "vulnerable" to something? Being killed just allows her to charge again.

ShumaGorath wrote:How is a unit that can't die "vulnerable" to something? Being killed just allows her to charge again.

She can die. She just doesn't always stay down.

You are reminding me of the OMG MEPHISTON threads right now.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:She costs 115 points and has an impact on the game that far exceeds that costing without requiring supporting units, complimentary builds, or clever tactics. She's severely undercosted and is probably the most powerful model for cost in the game.

That teaches me nothing. Please be specific.

She is highly mobile. Can not reasonably be tarpitted due to her tendency to die and ressurect outside of combat. She has six power weapon attacks on the charge that ignore toughness. She is a 2+/4+ IC with ws and I7. She has a heavy flamer. That stat-line in any other book would be worth ~190 points (230+ in the DE book). The fact that she can't actually be killed is icing, her raw stats already put her solidly into the wildly under costed category. A marine captain with nothing but a power weapon is 115. A marine captain with a power weapon, artificer armor, a jump pack and a theoretical heavy flamer would be about 185. He has fewer attacks, WS, and I. His toughness is one higher but his weapon is worse.

That means that in comparative costing, her ability to not die is worth at minimum NEGATIVE SIXTY POINTS. Compare her to any other IC in the games last three additions, nothing even comes close for the cost. She has beaten the vendetta for bs costing pretty solidly, she's probably beating the manticore as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:How is a unit that can't die "vulnerable" to something? Being killed just allows her to charge again.

She can die. She just doesn't always stay down.

You are reminding me of the OMG MEPHISTON threads right now.

Except mephiston doesn't have an invulnerable, doesn't get back up, has a similar statline, is reliant on psychic powers, and is more than twice the cost. You're reminding me of the people that wanted 35 point Penitent engines.

ShumaGorath wrote:That means that in comparative costing, her ability to not die is worth at minimum NEGATIVE SIXTY POINTS. Compare her to any other IC in the games last three additions, nothing even comes close for the cost. She has beaten the vendetta for bs costing pretty solidly, she's probably beating the manticore as well.

Comparative costing between codexes has been shown not to work right again and again. Books are generally costed against themselves and not other books.

ShumaGorath wrote:Except mephiston doesn't have an invulnerable, doesn't get back up, has a similar statline, is reliant on psychic powers, and is more than twice the cost. You're reminding me of the people that wanted 35 point Penitent engines.

It was a joke on the folks who freaked out about how OMG OP Meph was. Geeze. You're not helping your case any. lol

Comparative costing between codexes has been shown not to work right again and again. Books are generally costed against themselves and not other books.

Bad game design does not excuse more bad game design. She is wildly undercosted in the codex that she's in. There is no reason at all to take a cannoness in that book. None. They are comparatively worthless next to the cheaper demigodess with wings. She is game breaking at 1250 or lower and plainly overpowered above that. If you're going to try to whine to me that the rest of the sisters book is dramatically overcosted to make up for it then you're going to have to point out how. As it is she's just undercosted in a book that is at best poorly written and full of bad game design. Being at the bottom of the barrel doesn't make her place smell nicer.

It was a joke on the folks who freaked out about how OMG OP Meph was. Geeze. You're not helping your case any.

Except unlike mephiston for BAs Celestine actually DOES seemingly get into every sisters army that exists because she actually is plainly and dramatically undercosted.

ShumaGorath wrote:hyperbole.

She is undercosted. Sure. Most undercosted most powerful model in the game. No.

I'm not about to change your mind though.

pretre wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:hyperbole.

She is undercosted. Sure. Most undercosted most powerful model in the game. No.

I'm not about to change your mind though.

Then what, praytell, is the most undercosted model in the game if not her?

Shuma if you want to compare costs lets look at the Space Marine command sqaud and compare it to the Sororitas Command Sqaud. They are the same price for less attacks overall, less toughness, less initiative, some models have less WS, and they have a worse wargear selection along with an ability that might not work. The Preacher is 5 points less than a Sanguinary Priest and he has -2 WS, -1 BS, -1 S, -1 T, -1 Ld, a worse save, worse wargear, and significantly less potent ability since his only works if the unit he is with assaults. My point being is the codex needs something like Celestine to compete with other codices. Point costs cannot be compared across codices even though they should be. POint costs are utterly irrelevant to the utility of the unit obviously.

honestly i was reading through this and i had to comment. hope it doesn't come out too confusing. i have a tendency to rant

yes there are certain things gift of chaos, zogwart etc. that are perhaps a bit too good for the cost. but take a look at both of them. gift of chaos is either on a daemon prince and a complete waste where warptime is way better, or he is on a sorcerer and the sorcerer can be killed. zogwart can just be shot in the face with a lascannon and he is gone, sure a bit of luck would be required but still he can be killed and the threat can be removed.

with celestine it is just not possible. yes i do concede that Celestine is not going to break the game by herself, but look at what you are getting. a character the CANT DIE!!!

you get a god that will yes only kill a few things, but effectively allows an army to NEVER GET TABLED. the whole thing with you can always win if you table your opponent, no longer applies to them.

with that in mind remember that she also doesn't count as a kill point if she dies *if i remember correctly* i personally have played numerous games where she was all that was left. because of her the game went on for about 2 hours.


i would also like to point out that for some codex's *chaos space marines for example* *cough* *cough* there is really no way to tarpit her, cause you need every unit and you simply can not tarpit her effectivly. and yes i understand that is understandable and that you can still work around her but really giving an army a model that CANT DIE! how is that not broken?

honestly i find grey knights more fair as they have weaknesses and are actually pretty well priced for what you are getting.

and i can personally say that i actually enjoy playing against GK while SoB well... yeah... they have celestine a character that never DIES!!!




Automatically Appended Next Post:




just a little thing as i was looking through celestine's rules

the whole place her within one inch of were she "died"

what if it is not possible to do that?

what if there is a giant mob of orks on top of her... or something similar?

just something to add to my thoughts

Lol. Was that satire?

She only comes back on a 4+. if there are no models on the table, it's still a tabling.

I just want to chip in say that I am so enjoying the talk about how sob has the cheesiest unit in they game and people hate playing against sob because of their super power goddess who destroys EVERYTHING.

I am happy about this because lets face it when ever since 2ed have you herd other people being so scared of our army? I mean most people haven't played a sob army in their entire lives.

We're like the unknown army. Nobodies seen us, played against us and the few that do aren't really super impressed.

I hope that every player will know and fear us and we finally get some respect!!!

We are the Adepta Sororitas and we have come to cleanse the witch, the mutant and the Heretic!!!!! NONE SHALL BE SPARED THE HOLY CLEANSING OF FLAMES!!!!!!.

I'm sorry Pretre, my pteranadonic friend, but Shummy's got you here:

ShumaGorath wrote:Bad game design does not excuse more bad game design.

The fact that the books are designed in a vacuum is bad game design, as Shummy says. Celestine might have been designed without comparisons to other HQ's, but that's not a point in her favour. Now I can live with Celestine being Queen Bitch of the Universe as long as she is costed correctly. It seems, based upon what Shummy has said, that she is not.

How does the 'never die' part work exactly?

MrFlutterPie wrote:I just want to chip in say that I am so enjoying the talk about how sob has the cheesiest unit in they game and people hate playing against sob because of their super power goddess who destroys EVERYTHING.

I am happy about this because lets face it when ever since 2ed have you herd other people being so scared of our army? I mean most people haven't played a sob army in their entire lives.

We're like the unknown army. Nobodies seen us, played against us and the few that do aren't really super impressed.

I hope that every player will know and fear us and we finally get some respect!!!

We are the Adepta Sororitas and we have come to cleanse the witch, the mutant and the Heretic!!!!! NONE SHALL BE SPARED THE HOLY CLEANSING OF FLAMES!!!!!!.

Um... exalted >.>


Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:How does the 'never die' part work exactly?

place a token on the board where she left the table: she comes in within 1" of the token, or as close as possible, on a 4+ the next turn... if you roll less than 4+, then you can try on subsequent turns, till she does, or the game ends. Opponent is awarded KP/VPs if she is off the board when the game ends.

Oh right. I thought it was just roll, and if you don't get her she's actually dead. So you just keep trying? Youch... that's... not good.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Oh right. I thought it was just roll, and if you don't get her she's actually dead. So you just keep trying? Youch... that's... not good.

Personally, I think Justicar Thawn at 75pts is worse.... he can capture objectives, wears termy armor, and can hammerhand AND activate his force weapon on the same turn (lvl 2 psyker), as WELL as the same mechanic Celestine has.

You can't get this guy away from objectives :/

Revarien wrote:Um... exalted >.>

What does the "exalt" button even do?

I see it all the time but I don't know what purpose it serves?

It increases your iScore, which in turn boosts your stats. Everyone knows that...

H.B.M.C. wrote:It increases your iScore, which in turn boosts your stats. Everyone knows that...

I don't even know what an iScore is or what it does.

I'm Canadian so I spend most my time as a lumberjack in the frigid north lands and I spend my free time drinking and wrestling bears so sometimes I'm a bit out of the loop.

iScore is a numerical approximation of your ePeen.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm sorry Pretre, my pteranadonic friend, but Shummy's got you here:

Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Am I like a Pteradon? What does that mean?

The fact that the books are designed in a vacuum is bad game design, as Shummy says. Celestine might have been designed without comparisons to other HQ's, but that's not a point in her favour. Now I can live with Celestine being Queen Bitch of the Universe as long as she is costed correctly. It seems, based upon what Shummy has said, that she is not.

I don't believe that they are designed in a vaccuum. I believe the codexes themselves attempt to be costed to compete with other codexes but that some abilities are worth more in different codexes. As a completely out there example, Meltaguns cost more for some armies because of how cheap their troops are, or how accurate their troops are, or their availability in multiple slots, etc. I think 40k should be better balanced as a whole, but making the same ability cost the same for every unit in the game is probably not the way to do it.

pretre wrote:
I don't believe that they are designed in a vaccuum. I believe the codexes themselves attempt to be costed to compete with other codexes but that some abilities are worth more in different codexes. As a completely out there example, Meltaguns cost more for some armies because of how cheap their troops are, or how accurate their troops are, or their availability in multiple slots, etc. I think 40k should be better balanced as a whole, but making the same ability cost the same for every unit in the game is probably not the way to do it.

I completely agree with this statement. Also, the bad design in the SoB 'codex' imo is a combination of the special characters being under costed and the generic options being over costed. You cannot, however, compare a SM captain to Celestine.

No one has said she is not under costed, she is just not as game breaking (at tournament point levels) as people are making her out to be. Also, I never see Thawn played and he has essentially the same ability as Celestine while also being a scoring unit...

pretre wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm sorry Pretre, my pteranadonic friend, but Shummy's got you here:

Okay, I'll plead ignorance here. Am I like a Pteradon? What does that mean?

I believe it's an incorrect reference to The Land Before Time where the pteranodon was named Petrie.

As opposed to 'pretre'.

DarkStarSabre wrote:I believe it's an incorrect reference to The Land Before Time where the pteranodon was named Petrie.

As opposed to 'pretre'.

Aha! Good call DSS. Yeah, H.B.M.C. called me Petrie before and it was pretty funny. I was really confused and thought that I was missing some really wordy jab at me. lol

"I flied?"

I would be more amused if he made priest jokes though.

calypso2ts wrote:

pretre wrote:
I don't believe that they are designed in a vaccuum. I believe the codexes themselves attempt to be costed to compete with other codexes but that some abilities are worth more in different codexes. As a completely out there example, Meltaguns cost more for some armies because of how cheap their troops are, or how accurate their troops are, or their availability in multiple slots, etc. I think 40k should be better balanced as a whole, but making the same ability cost the same for every unit in the game is probably not the way to do it.

I completely agree with this statement. Also, the bad design in the SoB 'codex' imo is a combination of the special characters being under costed and the generic options being over costed. You cannot, however, compare a SM captain to Celestine.

No one has said she is not under costed, she is just not as game breaking (at tournament point levels) as people are making her out to be. Also, I never see Thawn played and he has essentially the same ability as Celestine while also being a scoring unit...

Thawn requires support to function and has a totally different use on the battlefield. He's also in the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade. It's hard to compete with Draigo, the deep striking terminator making ghostman, or deathcult assassins that are scoring. You can bet that celestine would be in every Gk list too though.

ShumaGorath wrote:He's also in the most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade.

Okay, now you're really messing with us. That's just flat-out false. Chaos Daemons for fantasy was the most OP book GW put out this decade. It single-handedly 'broke 7th ed' from what I heard from the square basers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, see IG Armoured Company. Not really a book though. I also think the GK hysteria is uncalled for. If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fair warning, I didn't play 4th, but wasn't the whole doctrines/traits thing pretty broken?

I didn't find the doctrines/traits broken at all in 4th.

skyth wrote:I didn't find the doctrines/traits broken at all in 4th.

Because the 'Cannot take allies' penalty really messed up so many armies.

Okay, now you're really messing with us. That's just flat-out false. Chaos Daemons for fantasy was the most OP book GW put out this decade. It single-handedly 'broke 7th ed' from what I heard from the square basers.

What is this "fantasy" thing?

Also, see IG Armoured Company. Not really a book though. I also think the GK hysteria is uncalled for. If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.

Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?

Fair warning, I didn't play 4th, but wasn't the whole doctrines/traits thing pretty broken?

From a fluff perspective yes, it wasn't a good system and was abused nearly the entire time. It was in a low power book though, so it didn't make much difference. Vanilla marines have never been a dominant force in tourneys.

If you meant 4th IG then the same holds true except the part about "never been dominant".

DarkStarSabre wrote:

skyth wrote:I didn't find the doctrines/traits broken at all in 4th.

Because the 'Cannot take allies' penalty really messed up so many armies.

Or, the advantages weren't all that super awesome to the point that marines from that codex were running roughshod over everyone?

ShumaGorath wrote:[

Also, see IG Armoured Company. Not really a book though. I also think the GK hysteria is uncalled for. If GK was as OP as everyone on the internet puts it out to be we'd probably have some different results in the competitive community.

Gray knights being half or more of the top tables in every major tourney since the book was released isn't good enough?

Citation needed.

Here's some tourney results, let's take a look (edit: BoK hates my browser.)

Da Boyz GT: 1 GK in the top 10. 4 in the top 20.
http://www.daboyzgt.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=iNOdLfn_NBc%3d&tabid=96&mid=468

BFS - Looks like low GK to me in gold bracket at the top tables. At the least, Ragnar and Mike weren't playing GK, so that's 50% right there.
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/bfs2011results.htm

Bugeater - No GK in the top 20. Might have been too early after release. Believe this was June and Codex was April
http://www.bugeatergames.com/Bugeater_Results40k.pdf

'Ard Boyz
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3476714 - 4 GK of 22.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/403205.page#3476954 - 1 GK of 9.

So yeah.. Where's this GK domination?

1 Rick Puig 19 23 23 65 Imperial Guard
2 Mark Billings 12 24 22 58 Grey Knights
4 Bill Hennessey 22 9 22 53 Dark Angels
3 Charles Peters 11 23 16 50 Grey Knights
5 Mattew Bennett 15 16 19 50 Grey Knights
3 Aaron Aleong 21 14 9 44 Grey Knights

In the ard boyz all four of those GK players were in the top six.

In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

I can't see what the BFS players were playing on that link.

In the bugeater there was one GK player in the entire tourney.

So yeah.. Where's this GK domination?

Half of what you just posted was GK dominated. One of the other two was pre codex it seems and the other doesn't show armies played.

ShumaGorath wrote:In the ard boyz all four of those GK players were in the top six.

So at one 'AB location there was >50% GK on the top 6.

In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

Umm. I hate PDFs and I'm not going to go through the effort to retype that, so I'll let this go. Still isn't 50% at the top tables that you were claiming.

I can't see what the BFS players were playing on that link.

In the bugeater there was one GK player in the entire tourney.

Look at the top gold brackets. Mike played Guard, Ragnar played Chaos. That's 50% non-gk right there. Also, the bugeater proves my point.

Where's the complete sweep that you were talking about?

edit: No, one 'AB location was GK dominated. The rest weren't.

So, GK are like BA then? A book that places high but ultimately still plays bridesmaid to IG and SW.....? No one is going to deny that the GK book is very powerful, but IG and SW are still winning almost a year after the release.

Anyways, we should probably take this to another thread, Shuma. We're WAAAAY OT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phazael wrote:So, GK are like BA then? A book that places high but ultimately still plays bridesmaid to IG and SW.....? No one is going to deny that the GK book is very powerful, but IG and SW are still winning almost a year after the release.

Shh. No logic. Just emotion!

GK's aren't nearly as powerful as doomsayers on the internet would have you believe. Oh, and the 3.5 Chaos Codex was probably the most broke 40k codex released in the last 10 years as far as it's impact on the community.

Celestine is cheap for her abilities but needed and still fits within the framework of the codex. Auto-include? Yes. Why Auto-include? Lack of options in a get-you-by codex. Honestly it's not worth the time of discussing since 1/50 40k players (maybe less) has a sisters army and is willing to actually play the new WD codex.

So at one 'AB location there was >50% GK on the top 6.

http://www.baldandscreaming.com/news/2011-ard-boyz-semi-finals-nationwide-results/

Umm. I hate PDFs and I'm not going to go through the effort to retype that, so I'll let this go. Still isn't 50% at the top tables that you were claiming.

Actually, it was. But this is a soft scored tourney so actual victories don't directly imply high placement.

Look at the top gold brackets. Mike played Guard, Ragnar played Chaos. That's 50% non-gk right there. Also, the bugeater proves my point.

You cherry picked four tourneys and were literally wrong on half of them. You're point is hardly "proven" if this is the best you had.

Hulksmash wrote:GK's aren't nearly as powerful as doomsayers on the internet would have you believe. Oh, and the 3.5 Chaos Codex was probably the most broke 40k codex released in the last 10 years as far as it's impact on the community.

I didn't mention that one because of the chaos player anguish and wrath that might descend on me if I did.

Honestly it's not worth the time of discussing since 1/50 40k players (maybe less) has a sisters army and is willing to actually play the new WD codex.

Woo! I am the 2%!

edit: Moved to the other thread.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here you go Shuma: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/417456.page

Made you your own thread. We can continue there.

ShumaGorath wrote:
She is highly mobile. Can not reasonably be tarpitted due to her tendency to die and ressurect outside of combat. She has six power weapon attacks on the charge that ignore toughness. She is a 2+/4+ IC with ws and I7. She has a heavy flamer. That stat-line in any other book would be worth ~190 points (230+ in the DE book). The fact that she can't actually be killed is icing, her raw stats already put her solidly into the wildly under costed category. .

They wound on a 4+, on average that makes two dead marines with six attacks if she charges. Compared to old 3.5 edition chaos daemon princes were you could get 21 str7 attacks from a flying MC thats pretty mediocre actually. Also, if you mean Drazhar then he has the high str to plow through marines that Celestine doesn't and with his spec abilities vs IC (re-roll misses and extra attacks from wounding) can very easily kill any other character in the game one on one. Celestine, probably wouldn't be able to that, as somebody said shes a disruptive unit that soaks up fire not a game breaker. A Battle conclave of Death cultists with I6 str 4 power weapon attacks is far more deadly.

Since I collect DE myself and know some characters like Lelith are over-costed I suppose 140-150pts would be fair. Any more than that and you are into CC monster territory which Celestine is seriously lacking in relative to them and would be unfair to charge those sort of points.

ShumaGorath wrote:
In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

Did you actually look at the scores for the 'soft scores' in this tournament and related them to GK? This statement is patently false. The top battle point armies were, actually, not GK. The top GK army scored 172 Battle Points, the next army scored 149. There was 1 GK army in the top 10 overall. In Battle Points the best GK player was 3rd in Battle Points. There was nothing dinstinctive about GK at Da Boyz and it had NOTHING to do with soft scores.

Psst. calypso2ts, I quoted your post over here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/417456.page#3689350

calypso2ts wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:
In the DaBoyz GT the grey knights scored consistently above curve in the actual gameplay section of the scoring criteria. They get nailed on soft scores as they're seen as a cheap army to play. If it were not a soft scored tourney they would have been the overall winners according to the results.

Did you actually look at the scores for the 'soft scores' in this tournament and related them to GK? This statement is patently false. The top battle point armies were, actually, not GK. The top GK army scored 172 Battle Points, the next army scored 149. There was 1 GK army in the top 10 overall. In Battle Points the best GK player was 3rd in Battle Points. There was nothing dinstinctive about GK at Da Boyz and it had NOTHING to do with soft scores.

I stated that they scored consistently above curve, which they did. They scored consistently below in other areas. I did not say that they were all of the top tables. Da Boyz GT was not a hyper competitive tourney as most would consider them. The organizers prided themselves on being an alternative to such formats and the tourney had force comp requirements..

Hey, keep it in the other thread.

If Celestian is an auto include, its because Robbin Cruddface decided that after two decades of virtually every Cannoness ever fielded having a jump pack that this was no longer acceptable to him. My wife has three Cannoness models with Jump Packs... and St Celestine. Thank you Robbin Cruddace, for expanding my bunghole another two sizes after the Tyranid raping.

Phazael wrote: two decades of virtually every Cannoness ever fielded having a jump pack that this was no longer acceptable to him. .

I might be wrong here, I'll have to check my C: Chapter Approved, but I don't remember Jump Pack canonesses before C:WH being a thing. I may have missed the boat though since I ran Redemptionist spam during 3rd ed.

Hulksmash wrote:Celestine is cheap for her abilities but needed and still fits within the framework of the codex. Auto-include? Yes. Why Auto-include? Lack of options in a get-you-by codex. Honestly it's not worth the time of discussing since 1/50 40k players (maybe less) has a sisters army and is willing to actually play the new WD codex.

Funny enough, in all the games I've played with this WD dex.... I've never used her. lol.

Revarien wrote:Funny enough, in all the games I've played with this WD dex.... I've never used her. lol.

HERESY! The interwebs now declare you Terribad.

I really hope this new Sisters book comes out soon. My buddy refuses to play with the new book, and I can't convince him to run the old one either (even with points adjustments for rhinos and immolators). Bah!

I would say that WFB Demons and 40k Chaos (3.5) were the most broken books GW has put out in 10 years. Nothing like going to a tourney and seeing nothing but IW on the field. :shiver: Those were dark days for the Tau Empire. Dark days.

Demons at least had help (VC was a little rough with how it manipulated the fear system, but stop the magic phase and poof!) but the shift to 8th ed was worthless if its intent was to balance demons. All it ended up doing was nerfing VC. >.< I wonder who wrote that Demon book for fantasy? :thinks:











(It was Mat Ward.)

Surprise it took us this long to get draigo'd.
/facepalm

pretre wrote:

Phazael wrote: two decades of virtually every Cannoness ever fielded having a jump pack that this was no longer acceptable to him. .

I might be wrong here, I'll have to check my C: Chapter Approved, but I don't remember Jump Pack canonesses before C:WH being a thing. I may have missed the boat though since I ran Redemptionist spam during 3rd ed.

The second edition book had them. That book remains one of my favorite codexes ever published by GW, actually.

Phazael wrote:The second edition book had them. That book remains one of my favorite codexes ever published by GW, actually.

It is damn cool. I never got to play it, but I own a copy. Lookit that, JP Canoness with JP Retinue. Neato.

i feel kinda dumb for asking but no one answered my question

just a little thing as i was looking through celestine's rules

the whole place her within one inch of were she "died"

what if it is not possible to do that?

what if there is a giant mob of orks on top of her... or something similar?


i know it has moved past this and i really am curious about it would someone please explain ?





pretre i got to say this YOU AWESOME though i am still going to hate on Celestine i do see your point.

though i just forgot what it was

haters gotta hate man

marmaduke wrote: i feel kinda dumb for asking but no one answered my question

just a little thing as i was looking through celestine's rules

the whole place her within one inch of were she "died"

what if it is not possible to do that?

what if there is a giant mob of orks on top of her... or something similar?

It is in the codex. You move her the minimum distance necessary.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

marmaduke wrote: haters gotta hate man

Indeed. Indeed.

pretre: Hardcore Celestine apologist.

MrFlutterPie wrote:pretre: Hardcore Celestine apologist.

I lol'd. AND you spelled my name right!

pretre wrote:

MrFlutterPie wrote:pretre: Hardcore Celestine apologist.

I lol'd. AND you spelled my name right!

Hey us cheesy sob players need to stick together!

Not as cheesy as it was before. I missed the ol' 2++ Jump Canoness with BoSL.

Current Saint Celestine is holding the current SoB together.

SabrX wrote:Not as cheesy as it was before. I missed the ol' 2++ Jump Canoness with BoSL.

Current Saint Celestine is holding the current SoB together.

Ahhh yeah those were the days.

I used to call her my "cruise missile"

Man she had a kill list miles long. Best HQ of that time!