I was playing a game with Necrons, and an OverLord who had a res orb was killed, along with some warriors he was in a squad with. All that was left was 1 warrior. My question is on the Reanimation roll, if I sucessfully bring back the Overlord, can my Necrons use the Orb on their rolls?

Also if all the warriors were brought down, and the lord was brought down and I sucessfully brought back the Overlord, would I be allowed to bring back the warriors?

Mikeb43 wrote: I was playing a game with Necrons, and an OverLord who had a res orb was killed, along with some warriors he was in a squad with. All that was left was 1 warrior. My question is on the Reanimation roll, if I sucessfully bring back the Overlord, can my Necrons use the Orb on their rolls?

I would say no because all the rolls are made at the end of te phase, and at the time the rolls are made there is no bearer with the orb.

Mikeb43 wrote:Also if all the warriors were brought down, and the lord was brought down and I sucessfully brought back the Overlord, would I be allowed to bring back the warriors?

No because characters do not count as part of the unit for the reanimation protocol. Once the last warrior has been removed, the unit of warriors is destroyed.

Rez Orb allows the bearer and the unit he is with to pass RP rolls on a 4+ instead of the normal 5+ (numbers might be wrong, don't have the codex). The ONLY time a Rez Orb comes into play is during RP rolls, so yes you would benefit from the Rez Orb. However, if the Overlord fails his roll, in subsequent phases, the warriors would not have the benefit of it.
If the Overlord is part of the unit (again no codex) via the "HQ choice that can separate and join other unit" ability (God why can't I remember what that's called?) he is part of the unit. Though of course if you want to read more debate on this check out this thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/413090.page

time wizard wrote:

Mikeb43 wrote: I was playing a game with Necrons, and an OverLord who had a res orb was killed, along with some warriors he was in a squad with. All that was left was 1 warrior. My question is on the Reanimation roll, if I sucessfully bring back the Overlord, can my Necrons use the Orb on their rolls?

I would say no because all the rolls are made at the end of te phase, and at the time the rolls are made there is no bearer with the orb.

The problem with that interpretation is that the Overlord then wouldn't be able to use the 4+ roll, since he's not on the table when he takes the roll.

I currently play it as the Orb is in effect until the Overlord fails an RP roll and is completely gone from the table, and nobody I've asked locally has had a problem with that. Another way I could see it working is that the check for the Orb occurs when a model is downed and replaced with a counter. So anybody who dies before, or in the same round of shooting as the Overlord gets the 4+ RP roll. Anyone who dies after gets a 5+.

Dytalus wrote:The problem with that interpretation is that the Overlord then wouldn't be able to use the 4+ roll, since he's not on the table when he takes the roll.

Correct. That's what the rule says to do. When he is removed as a casulaty place a counter where he had been.

He is no longer on the table, and neither is the res orb.

I don't see how he could use the advantage of a piece of wargear that is not present at that time.

Well then what's the point of a Res Orb? It specifies that the bearer gets its bonus. So it must count as being in play even when he's just a counter. There's no other way it could work.

Dytalus wrote:Well then what's the point of a Res Orb? It specifies that the bearer gets its bonus. So it must count as being in play even when he's just a counter. There's no other way it could work.

No, it states the bearer and his unit.

But you bring up a good point about how he get the res orb benefit if he isn't on the table.

If he is with a unit, and the unit is wiped out, they get no chance to roll at all.

If he's with a unit, and he goes down, when he comes back up he must be placed in coherency with that unit, so do the models in the unit gain the benefit of the res orb?

They should, but is he part of the unit before you roll for him to return?

Just another screwed up rule that asks more questions than it answers.

"The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocols rolls on a 4+"
The only thing the resurrection orb cares about is Reanimation Protocol rolls. If the bearer (and his unit) are making Reanimation Protocol rolls, they pass on a 4+. The rule cares for nothing else. The rule doesn't care when the casualties happen, just when you are making the rolls.

Not especially. There are a lot of Necron rules which are plenty clear for gaming purposes, and people seem to be misconstruing them for whatever reason.

Is he a part of the unit when models in the unit die, including himself? If yes, then they get a 4+ roll. Simple as that. If the Overlord is no longer on the table at all (ie, he failed an RP roll) then nobody gets the 4+ roll.

I thought this had already been addressed....

The ResOrb effect is a general effect bestowed to the unit by the bear (a unit might be just the bearer). The "check" of the effect of the Orb is made when the model is removed from play.

If the Orb is on the table prior to removing the model, the model has a 4+ RP roll. If the Orb is NOT on the table prior to removing the model the model has a 5+ RP roll. It's that simple.

If I remember the last thread correctly, the majority believes that only after the bearer of the orb fails his RP roll, the orb stops to benefit the unit.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I thought this had already been addressed....

The ResOrb effect is a general effect bestowed to the unit by the bear (a unit might be just the bearer). The "check" of the effect of the Orb is made when the model is removed from play.

If the Orb is on the table prior to removing the model, the model has a 4+ RP roll. If the Orb is NOT on the table prior to removing the model the model has a 5+ RP roll. It's that simple.

Where does it state that? You seem to be using a mixture of old WBB and new RP.

You can see his argument (and others counter-argument) at the thread I posted. Either make a decision based on that and discuss with your opponent if you think there will be problems, or, if at a tourney, ask the TO.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I thought this had already been addressed....

The ResOrb effect is a general effect bestowed to the unit by the bear (a unit might be just the bearer). The "check" of the effect of the Orb is made when the model is removed from play.

If the Orb is on the table prior to removing the model, the model has a 4+ RP roll. If the Orb is NOT on the table prior to removing the model the model has a 5+ RP roll. It's that simple.

The only "check" you do, is when you are rolling for Reanimation Protocol.

Are you making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer (or his unit) of a resurrection orb? Yes, then they pass on a 4+. It is that simple.

TGA - it was only "settled" because you decided it didnt follow its own rules.

THe bearer passes on a 4+. His own RP roll is on a 4+
Your method ignores the clear and unambiguous rule

The "clear and unambiguous" rule state the bearer and the unit he is with get a 4+ RP roll. The ResOrb is a piece of wargear thus only works when on the table.

From my post in the previous thread:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
The "check" you're so concerned about happens as a normal part of game play. Was the piece of wargear available when the model was removed from play? If so, the model benefits from the wargear, if not, no benefit.

The rules of the ResOrb DO NOT state the check is made at the time of the RP roll, just that the a model GET a better RP roll. That's two separate and ideas.

The ResOrb is a piece of wargear and thus behaves just like all other pieces of wargear: unless specified otherwise, it only works when on the table. Thus, my quote above is the only valid interpretation (much like how the Orb was handled in the previous codex). Any other interpretation involves convoluted means of wargear working when not on the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
THe bearer passes on a 4+. His own RP roll is on a 4+
Your method ignores the clear and unambiguous rule

No it doesn't. Reread what I said, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the model. In the case of the bearer being lost as a causality, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the bearer, since the bearer IS the one with the ResOrb, the model (bearer) benefits from the Orb prior to being removed from play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
No it doesn't. Reread what I said, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the model. In the case of the bearer being lost as a causality, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the bearer, since the bearer IS the one with the ResOrb, the model (bearer) benefits from the Orb prior to being removed from play.

Ok, old WBB required you to check if lord has Res Orb or if the models were in range of it when they died. However like I've said before there is nothing that forces you to make a check in the new RP. It just states bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ instead of regular 5+. There are two possible ways how RP can go:

The Res Orb is a wargear therefore it doesn't work when the bearer is removed from play and waiting that phase's end to make his RP. Hence bearer of the Res Orb can never benefit from it which contradicts the Res Orb rule itself.

Bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ until bearer fails it's RP roll at the end of that phase and leaves the table for good.

Maybe I'm missing something here and I'd be very glad if you could show us where in the codex it's stated that you make a check.

Some people believe that the new orb should behave just like the old orb. The new wording doesn't agree with that. Yet maybe a faq should be made to clear things up. Sometimes old habits die hard...

It's not that the new wording doesn't agree with that. It's the new wording doesn't cover when the check is made. All we have to go on is logic, and the most logical choice is Cyrax's second option. Otherwise the Orbs bearer can never benefit from the orb, which is a direct contradiction with its ruleset.

Dytalus wrote:It's not that the new wording doesn't agree with that. It's the new wording doesn't cover when the check is made. All we have to go on is logic, and the most logical choice is Cyrax's second option. Otherwise the Orbs bearer can never benefit from the orb, which is a direct contradiction with its ruleset.

I agree to this. IMO the spirit of the rule is clearly visible. I'll play it like this.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:The ResOrb is a piece of wargear and thus behaves just like all other pieces of wargear: unless specified otherwise, it only works when on the table.

Where is this stated? I know of specific pieces of wargear (Narthecium and Company Standard, the only two I know off the top of my head) that state this, but no rule that says all wargear acts this way.

In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

This whole argument is a big excercise in mental masturbation, anyhow. We all know what the intent was and how it will eventually be FAQed. A better question to ask would be about the interaction of Trazyn's abilities with RP and what happens if the only model of a unit left is a royal court model.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

Nail meet coffin.

The debate is a bit absurd. I would personally punch some one in the taint if they said the 30pt piece of wargear doesn't even work for the model I purchased it for.

Cyrax wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:
No it doesn't. Reread what I said, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the model. In the case of the bearer being lost as a causality, check to see if the ResOrb is on the table prior to removing the bearer, since the bearer IS the one with the ResOrb, the model (bearer) benefits from the Orb prior to being removed from play.

Ok, old WBB required you to check if lord has Res Orb or if the models were in range of it when they died. However like I've said before there is nothing that forces you to make a check in the new RP. It just states bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ instead of regular 5+. There are two possible ways how RP can go:

The Res Orb is a wargear therefore it doesn't work when the bearer is removed from play and waiting that phase's end to make his RP. Hence bearer of the Res Orb can never benefit from it which contradicts the Res Orb rule itself.

Bearer of the Res Orb and his unit pass their RP on 4+ until bearer fails it's RP roll at the end of that phase and leaves the table for good.

Maybe I'm missing something here and I'd be very glad if you could show us where in the codex it's stated that you make a check.

I've stated how the ResOrb works within the confines of the rules and such. The bearer is NOT on the table at the time of the RP roll thus the ResOrb is NOT a factor. The wargear works as the model is being removed from play. It's the only way to fit the logic within the confines of the game. With RP, the model is physically removed from the game play/table as a causality, thus is no longer part of the game. No wargear, no powers, nothing. Period.

As mentioned in a previous post, this is similar to how the ResOrb worked in the past, the same logic applies here. Otherwise, you have wargear that works when removed from game play and that hasn't been proven yet.

nosferatu1001 wrote:In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

Actually, no it doesn't. The model that passes its RP roll rejoins its unit and benefits from the phylactery. Notice it's AFTER the RP roll, not before. Thus, the model is on the table and part of the game, not off the table not part of the game.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Nail meet coffin.

If by nail meet coffin, you mean nos hasn't proven a thing yet and phylactery is used AFTER the model has rejoined the game, then yes, yes the nail has met the coffin.

Wrong, as you were corrected in the previous thread - you roll the D3 while the model is off the table; the model doesnt appear and then you roll the D3

So, you still havent proven a single thing, including your base premise.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:In fact the phylactery explicitly works when off the table....

Actually, no it doesn't. The model that passes its RP roll rejoins its unit and benefits from the phylactery. Notice it's AFTER the RP roll, not before. Thus, the model is on the table and part of the game, not off the table not part of the game.

Necrons Codex, page 82, Phylactery: One use only. A model with phylactery that passes his first Reanimation Protocols roll returns to play with D3 wounds. You're right about rolling for phylactery after the the RP roll. However as you can see from the rule itself, the model doesn't return to play until a D3 is rolled for the phylactery.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Wrong, as you were corrected in the previous thread - you roll the D3 while the model is off the table; the model doesnt appear and then you roll the D3

So, you still havent proven a single thing, including your base premise.

The model is part of the game once it the RP roll is made thus the wargear comes into play. It's not roll a D3 then roll for RP now is it.

How is my premise wrong, again. You keep saying that with out much to back it up......

Read the Phylactery rule again. The model is placed on the table with D3 wounds, which means the roll has to occur before it returns to the table. The Phylactery roll occurs before it returns to play, but after the RP roll.

TGA - apparentky resding the rule was too much for yiu.

The model is returned to play with d3 wounds, ie before they appear on the table the phylactery is used. Which, accordibg to yiur as yet unproven assumption means they are NOT in play, and wargear cannot function

Guess you're still wrong thrn

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - apparentky resding the rule was too much for yiu.

The model is returned to play with d3 wounds, ie before they appear on the table the phylactery is used. Which, accordibg to yiur as yet unproven assumption means they are NOT in play, and wargear cannot function

Guess you're still wrong thrn

What rule permits the ResOrb to function when not in play? If the bearer is removed from game play, how can its wargear still be used? This is the discussion.

Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

Besides, isnt it clear when the res orb rule says the BEARER AND his unit benefit from it? How can the bearer benefit from it if it doesnt work when he goes to make his RP roll?

seems pretty cut and dry.

BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

There a HUGE difference between a piece of wargear affecting a model after coming into play (Phylactery) versus a piece of wargear affecting a model that has been removed from game play (ResOrb).

Besides, isnt it clear when the res orb rule says the BEARER AND his unit benefit from it? How can the bearer benefit from it if it doesnt work when he goes to make his RP roll?

seems pretty cut and dry.

Actually, I've shown how it works. What hasn't been shown is that wargear works when the model has been removed from game play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

There a HUGE difference between a piece of wargear affecting a model after coming into play (Phylactery) versus a piece of wargear affecting a model that has been removed from game play (ResOrb).

I don't see how you're not getting this.

The Phylactery comes into play while the model is removed from play. The model is not return to play until you have already rolled for the Phylactery.

TGA - nope, apparently you still cant be bothered to read the Phylactery rules.

"A model with a phylactery that passes his Reanimation Protocols roll returns to play with D3 wounds"

So, from this you can determine that phylactery works before the model is returned to play, meaning he is NOT "in play" - yet the wargear works.

You do NOT return the model to play and then roll, he is returned WITH D3 wounds, not returned and then has D3 wounds

Guess this means your premise, for which you have no rules support, is still wrong.

Not sure why this why closed, but this is an old discussion that is a drama magnet.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

Addresses this question is what was received as easy stuff. I think it still needs clarification to the community.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been reanimated NOT when its been removed from game play so it's not the same as the ResOrb being affective while not in play.

But you roll before the model is returned to play - as it's returned to play with D3 wounds, it must function while the model is out of play.

This really kills the arguement that res orb wont work if the character with it is not currently on the table.

If wargear doesnt work unless its on the board, then phylactery wouldnt work either, but we know it does.

There a HUGE difference between a piece of wargear affecting a model after coming into play (Phylactery) versus a piece of wargear affecting a model that has been removed from game play (ResOrb).

How does the Phylactery affect a model after coming into play, when the model doesn't return to play until [i]after[/i you've determined how many wounds he will return with? The model is returned to play with D3 wounds. Not "The models wounds are set to the result of a D3 after it is returned to play."

Can you explain how the Phylactery works, following the assumption that it does not work when it's off the table?

The Cryptek's wargear; Gaze of Flame and Ether Crystal, both give the bearer and the unit it is joined/with/attached a special rule/ability. These pieces of wargear specifically tells you the unit
loses the ability when the bearer is removed.

The Space Marine's wargear; Narthecium and Company Standard, both give the bearer and the unit it is joined/with/attached, or a bubble in the case of the Company Standard, a special
rule/ability. These pieces of wargear also specifically tells you the model must be alive for the rule/ability to have any affect.

The Resurrection Orb has no such restriction. You are adding rules were none exist.

Careful, ToBeWilly, someone (who would have to be incredibly stupid) could use that same argument to justify (for example) still shooting with a Tempest Launcher because after all "there are no rules saying the model has to be alive to use the weapon"

ToBeWilly wrote:
The Resurrection Orb has no such restriction. You are adding rules were none exist.

Show me where in the entire 40k universe a piece of wargear continues to function, unless explicitly stated, when the model has been removed from game play as a casualty. If the bear is removed from play, the ResOrb is also removed from play, i.e., it no longer works.

Further, if you insist the ResOrb continues to functoin when the bearer is remove from game play when does it no longer function? Until the RP roll fails? Remember, the bearer is removed from the game prior to any RP rolls. Nothing about the model, from the game's point of view, works. The bearer can't shoot, the bearer can't use wargear, the bearer is not part of the unit.

If the bearer is not part of the unit and its wargear no longer is effective, how does the ResOrb function? Occman's Razor: the ResOrb functions much like it did in the previous codex, meaning the check for the affect of the Orb happens prior to being removed from play. Otherwise, you have to introduce new rules allowing wargear to function after the model has been removed from the game.

So, you're now ignoring the phylactery, which proves your argument incorrect?

Classic.

Also if it the Resorb bearer couldnt benefit from it, it wouldnt state "the bearer of the ResOrb (and his unit) pass RP on 4+" In fact it is emphesising the bearer in that sentence, the unit is an afterthought.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Show me where in the entire 40k universe a piece of wargear continues to function, unless explicitly stated, when the model has been removed from game play as a casualty. If the bear is removed from play, the ResOrb is also removed from play, i.e., it no longer works.

The Phylactery and Resurrection Orb

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Further, if you insist the ResOrb continues to functoin when the bearer is remove from game play when does it no longer function? Until the RP roll fails? Remember, the bearer is removed from the game prior to any RP rolls. Nothing about the model, from the game's point of view, works. The bearer can't shoot, the bearer can't use wargear, the bearer is not part of the unit.

If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), they pass on a 4+. If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls and there isn't a bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), then they pass on a 5+.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:If the bearer is not part of the unit and its wargear no longer is effective, how does the ResOrb function? Occman's Razor: the ResOrb functions much like it did in the previous codex, meaning the check for the affect of the Orb happens prior to being removed from play. Otherwise, you have to introduce new rules allowing wargear to function after the model has been removed from the game.

See above. The rule works without your assumption.

This is the dumbest argument I have seen. If I played the orb how some people on here want me to, there's no point to take it and waste the 30 points on something that has no way of affecting my list positively. The thing is 30 points and you're telling me I can't use it because you shot my lord first? What's the point?

Could the wording in the codex be clearer? Yes.

Would I respect an opponent that made me roll on a 5+? Not ever.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So, you're now ignoring the phylactery, which proves your argument incorrect?

Classic.

I'm not ignoring it. The rule for phylactery states a model that has made its RP roll returns with d3 wounds. In other words, making its RP roll allows the model to no longer be dead and thus wargear and such can be used.

ToBeWilly wrote:

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Show me where in the entire 40k universe a piece of wargear continues to function, unless explicitly stated, when the model has been removed from game play as a casualty. If the bear is removed from play, the ResOrb is also removed from play, i.e., it no longer works.

The Phylactery and Resurrection Orb

Neither state they work when the bearer is removed from game play as a casualty. Phylactery works AFTER the model has made its RP roll, thus it's use occurs after the model is reanimated/alive.

Nowhere in the ResOrb rules does it mention its effect continues after the bearer has been removed from game play. It just states the bearer and the unit he is with benefit from it. Since a model removed from game play as a causality doesn't exists in the W40k universe anymore how do you justify wargear being used after the model has been removed? From the rules

BRB, page 24,REMOVE CASUALTIES wrote:
...Most models have a single Wound on their profile, in which case for each unsaved wound one moel is immediately removed from the table as a casualty....

Casualties are not necessarily dead - they may be merely knocked unconscious, too injured to carry on fighting or incapacitated in other some way. In any case, they are no longer fit to participate in the battle.

There. The rules specifically states a model removed as a causality no longer participates in the battle, this includes his wargear.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:Further, if you insist the ResOrb continues to functoin when the bearer is remove from game play when does it no longer function? Until the RP roll fails? Remember, the bearer is removed from the game prior to any RP rolls. Nothing about the model, from the game's point of view, works. The bearer can't shoot, the bearer can't use wargear, the bearer is not part of the unit.

If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls for the bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), they pass on a 4+. If you are making Reanimation Protocol rolls and there isn't a bearer of a Resurrection Orb (and his unit), then they pass on a 5+.

And nothing in the that rule states the affect of the ResOrb continues after the bearer has been removed. If the bearer is removed, there is no ResOrb. Again, the ResOrb rule is stated in a similar way as the previous version, yet there was no debate on when its affect where checked. For the ResOrb to function under the rules of page 24, it functions as the previous version: an unit-type affect that is "checked" prior to the model being removed from game play. For the ResOrb to function AFTER the bearer is removed from the game as a casualty, the rules would have to provide an exemption to page 24; there is no such exemption defined.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:If the bearer is not part of the unit and its wargear no longer is effective, how does the ResOrb function? Occman's Razor: the ResOrb functions much like it did in the previous codex, meaning the check for the affect of the Orb happens prior to being removed from play. Otherwise, you have to introduce new rules allowing wargear to function after the model has been removed from the game.

See above. The rule works without your assumption.

Just stating "they work" without providing any proof is meaningless. As I've shown, Phylactery is used after the model is reanimated and the ResOrb doesn't state its affect continues long after the bearer is removed from game play.

Phylactery triggers BEFORE the model is placed on the table. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Only a troll would quote a rule that explicitly states "the BEARER and his unit benefit" and then state that the bearer can't use it because he is not on the table when the roll is made.

Don't feed the trolls people.

Res orb works and nothing 1 troll says will change that.

Ah, so youre now redefining what "removed as a casualty" and "returned to play" means, such that models now have an intermediate state BEFORE they are returned?

Moving goal posts much.

Phylactery works BEFORE THE MODEL IS IN PLAY. It specifically states so. The model is still just a marker, it has still been removed as a casualty and it is NOT yet "in play"

Your argument is bunk, and you know it.

First off, wtf. Is this TheGreatAvatar dude for real? The orb's rules are "The bearer of the resurrection orb (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocals rolls on a 4+.". How the hell can the bearer ever use it unless he is down? Please think about this, think about this realllllll hard. Don't use the Edition Rulebook, GW has already stated a myriad of times that codex rules are to be followed first and fore most. I don't know a single person or have seen a single battle report where a necron unit can't use the res orb until the bearer fails to come back. If the bearer is down, he can use it and since he is still part of the unit until his fake death = a real death, so can the unit. Why are you the only person who seems to raising fuss about this?

BarBoBot wrote:Phylactery triggers BEFORE the model is placed on the table. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game.

Only a troll would quote a rule that explicitly states "the BEARER and his unit benefit" and then state that the bearer can't use it because he is not on the table when the roll is made.

If the bearer has been removed from the game what unit does it belong to? What wargear can be used after the model has been removed from the game?


Also, I never said the bearer wasn't affected by the Orb. At least read my posts before calling me a troll....

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

BarBoBot wrote:Phylactery triggers BEFORE the model is placed on the table. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game.

No, the model was removed from play as a casualty and a marker was put in it's place. Unless I'm missing something.

TGA - "But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game. "

No, it does not exist. It is brought back WITH D3 wounds, meaning BEFORE it is in play you roll the D3.

Stop ignoring and simply making up new ideas: your default concept is flawed.

Asserting that the Phylactery rules prove that wargear works when removed from play is wrong. The Phylactery rules only trigger when a model successfully passes a RP roll and is returned to play.

The 'returned to play' part in the Phylactery rules is in reference to the RP roll. You do not roll the d3 until the RP roll is passed, at which point the model is returned to play. In that respect TGA is right.

TGA: You're wrong when you posted that the RP check is made when a model is removed as a casualty. RP rolls are made at the end of the phase. The RP rules are very explicit on this point. Obviously though, the only way to know if you gain the benefit of a Res Orb is by checking to see if there is a model in the unit that bears the Orb when you are about roll for RP. There is no more Res Orb range checking for when casualties occur.

Nos: Unless a piece of wargear explicitly allows it, it does not function when it's removed from play. There is a very clear delineation between models between models/units in play and models/units out of play.

-Yad

Your wrong on the first part.

Phylactery: " A model with a phylactery that passes his first reanimation protocols roll returns to play with d3 wounds"

It doesnt enter play THEN get d3 wounds, it RETURNS to play with d3 wounds, meaning the d3 roll is made BEFORE it returns to play.

You are also wrong on your second part.

Res orb DOES explicitly state that it works on the bearer, and that would only happen if the bearer is off the table and attempting his RP roll.

How does the bearer benefit from res orb (as is explicitly stated in the rule) if he cant use the res orb when he is off the table and attempting a RP roll?

Yad - apparently like TGA you havent bothered to read the Phylactery rule, or have a different idea of what "returned to play with D3 wounds" means than parsiign it in English would tell you

What it ACTUALLY means is that, when you return the model to play (so, before this it is still in the "removed" - by definition - "from play" state) it has D3 wounds - meaning the phylactery MUST have worked before the model is returned to play

You do not roll after returning the model, as that is breaking the rule.

So the phylactery works while off table, because it EXPLICITLY states it does.

You can disagree, but you have no basis in English to read it any other way, meaning your disagreement has no basis in rules

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yad - apparently like TGA you havent bothered to read the Phylactery rule, or have a different idea of what "returned to play with D3 wounds" means than parsiign it in English would tell you

What it ACTUALLY means is that, when you return the model to play (so, before this it is still in the "removed" - by definition - "from play" state) it has D3 wounds - meaning the phylactery MUST have worked before the model is returned to play

You do not roll after returning the model, as that is breaking the rule.

So the phylactery works while off table, because it EXPLICITLY states it does.

You can disagree, but you have no basis in English to read it any other way, meaning your disagreement has no basis in rules

Wrong. Arguing with you Nos is like trying to squeeze blood form a stone. If you want to play that wargear works even when removed from the table, have at it. Thinking that you must roll for the phylactery before the RP roll is purely an invention on your part and is not enforceable by the rules.

-Yad

Well, when you make up an argument that doesnt exist then yes, it will be "difficult" for you to argue against it.

Sigh

My argument is that, AFTER you make the RP roll but BEFORE you return the model to play, you MUST roll the phylactery - because that is how the rule reads

The EL model is returned to play WITH D3 wounds, not WILL HAVE D3 wounds.

You are still entirely utterly 100% wrong

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - "But the model does exist. It is in play. This is like some of the wargear/behavior of other models held in reserve.Although they are off the table they are still considered as being in the game. "

No, it does not exist. It is brought back WITH D3 wounds, meaning BEFORE it is in play you roll the D3.

Stop ignoring and simply making up new ideas: your default concept is flawed.

What part of AFTER the RP roll is made the model is part of the game. THEN you roll for D3 wounds. The model has returned to the game and thus can use wargear, i.e. Phylactery. So, the wargear to potentially gain additional wounds is used after the model is reanimated/returned to the game.

This is in stark contrast to using the ResOrb once the bearer has been pulled from the table.

It all boils down to just a few scenario:

Scenario A:
1) ResOrb bearer is with a unit of fifteen Warriors.
2) During the opponent's shooting phase the four more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.
Question A: At the end of the shooting phase, what is the RP roll needed by the four RP markers?

Question A - Answer
This is the simple. The RP roll needed for the markers is 4+.

Scenario B:
1) ResOrb bearer is with a unit of fifteen Warriors.
2) During the opponent's shooting phase the bearer is removed from game play as a casualty and an EL marker replaces the bearer.
3) Later in the phase four more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.
Question B: At the end of the shooting phase, what is the RP roll needed by the EL marker? What is the RP roll needed by the four RP markers?

Question B - Answer
This is a bit more complicated. The RP roll needed for the EL markers is 4+. The RP roll needed for the four RP markers is 5+ since there is no ResOrb with the unit. The bearer has been removed from game play and as such is no longer part of the unit thus the unit does not benefit from the Orb.


Scenario C:
1) ResOrb bearer is with a unit of fifteen Warriors.
2) During the opponent's shooting phase the four more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.
2) Later in the phase the bearer is removed from game play as a casualty and an EL marker replaces the bearer.
3) Later in the phase three more Warriors are removed as casualties and four markers are placed next to the unit.

Question C: At the end of the shooting phase, what is the RP roll needed by the EL marker? What is the RP roll needed by the four RP markers? What is the RP roll needed by the three RP markers added AFTER the bearer was removed?

Question C - Answer
This is the most complicated. The RP roll needed for the EL markers is 4+. The RP roll needed for the four RP markers is 4+ since the ResOrb was with the unit when the models were removed. The RP roll needed for the three markers is 5+. The first four Warriors were removed when the Orb was with the unit thus benefit from its affect. The ResOrb was not with the unit when the last three Warriors were removed as casualties thus do not benefit from its affect.

If the check for the ResOrb is made at the time of the RP roll then no model, not even the removed bearer, would benefit from the Orb if the bearer was removed since wargear doesn't function once a model has been removed from game play. Again, the simplest approach is the ResOrb functions similar to how it did in the previous codex.

The is the rule from the previous codex:

Codex: Necron, 2002, page 15 wrote:
The Necron Lord is able to augment the self-repair systems of the Necrons within 6" of him. All Necron units with a model within 6" (including the Lord himself) may attemtp "We'll Be Back" rolls even if they were damaged by weaponry that causes instant death or close combat weapons that allow no Armour save.

And the new rule:

Necron codex, 2011, page 82 wrote:
The bearer of the resurrection or (and his unit) pass Reanimation Protocol rolls on a 4+.

Now, both rules are very similar in that the effect of the ResOrb affects how the models can be repaired/reanimated. Neither rule details the weargear being effective AFTER bearer has been damaged/removed from play.

It has been determined with the older rule the check for the effectiveness of the Orb when the model is damaged. How is this different from the in term of game play then the new rule?

"What part of AFTER the RP roll is made the model is part of the game. "

Wrong, you are still utterly and totally ignoring the actual rules in favour of an entirely made up interpretation that has no basis in actual English parsing of the sentence

The model IS returned to play WITH D3 wounds. Meaning, BEFORE the model is in play you roll the D3 wounds.

THere is absolutely NO way to "interpret" it the way you are doing, without altering the sentence.. Or, to put it bluntly, you are making gak up.

There is no imaginary zone in-between being in play and not being in play.

The rule states the model is returned to play with d3 wounds.

The d3 roll is made BEFORE the model is in play because it has the d3 wounds by the time it returns to play.

There is no purgatory zone where a model that has passed it's RP goes. It goes from not being in play to being returned to play. When it is returned to play it already has d3 wounds, therefore the phylactery triggered while the model was not in play.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"What part of AFTER the RP roll is made the model is part of the game. "

Wrong, you are still utterly and totally ignoring the actual rules in favour of an entirely made up interpretation that has no basis in actual English parsing of the sentence

Look, you're the one that stated the phylactery is used when the model has been removed from play. I'm saying once the model has made it's RP roll, the model is considered back in the game and free to use wargear. This is not some made up interpretation. This is directly from the the RP.

Necron Codex, page 29 wrote:
...On a 5 or 6, a Necron reassembles itself and continues to fight....

Necron Codex, page 82 wrote:
A model with a phylactery that passes his first Reanimation Protocol roll returns to play with D3 Wounds.

So, the model removed from game play rolls for RP. If successful, the model is returned to game play and rolls a D3 to determine how many wounds the model returns with.

You had used Phylactery to proof there is wargear used when even when the model has been removed from game play to justify your argument the ResOrb is used when RP rolls made. I've shown phylactery is only used when the model has reentered the game via the RP roll. So the use of Phylactery is moot.

Address the issues of the ResOrb such as prove the ResOrb functions after the bearer has been removed from game play.

No. No matter how many times you try to say it, the rule does NOT state that the model is returned to play and THEN you roll for d3 wounds....

It CLEARLY states the model is turned to play WITH d3 wounds.

By the time the model is placed on the table, you have already rolled for phylactery...

TGA - and, again, you are wilfully ignoring the phylactery rules.

You are returned WITH D3 wounds. You are not in play when you roll the D3 wounds. Otherwise you are claiming the phylactery rules are lying.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Well, when you make up an argument that doesnt exist then yes, it will be "difficult" for you to argue against it.

Sigh

My argument is that, AFTER you make the RP roll but BEFORE you return the model to play, you MUST roll the phylactery - because that is how the rule reads

The EL model is returned to play WITH D3 wounds, not WILL HAVE D3 wounds.

You are still entirely utterly 100% wrong

I was dead set against your 'argument', but then I saw your expert use of capitalization and that won me over. Once again this goes nowhere fast. Moving along now.

-Yad

Oh joy, Yad attempting sarcasm.

Your expert use of making up arguments that someone isnt working truly makes it difficult to debate with you. Its like someone looking at a lake and seeing a banana

BarBoBot wrote:No. No matter how many times you try to say it, the rule does NOT state that the model is returned to play and THEN you roll for d3 wounds....

It CLEARLY states the model is turned to play WITH d3 wounds.

By the time the model is placed on the table, you have already rolled for phylactery...

Agreed. The model is potentially returned to play with D3 wounds. However, the the extra wound are rolled for AFTER the the RP roll has been made. In other words, after the model and been reanimated, i.e. returned to play.

Phylactery doesn't happen when the model has been removed from play as a casualty. Phylactery happens after the model has been reanimated and returned to play, part of that play is using the Phylactery piece of wargear.

Again, this thread is dealing with the ResOrb being used AFTER the bearer has been removed from play. Phylactery is used when the model returns thus is not relevant to this discussion.

Excelt phylactery states it is returned WITH D3 wounds, not WILL BE returned with D3 wounds. Meaning you roll BEFORE the model has been returned to play.

Again, stop ignoring the actual rules in order to prop up your floundering argument.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Excelt phylactery states it is returned WITH D3 wounds, not WILL BE returned with D3 wounds. Meaning you roll BEFORE the model has been returned to play.

Again, stop ignoring the actual rules in order to prop up your floundering argument.

Sigh, the Phylactery roll is made AFTER the RP roll. Without the successful RP roll the Phylactery roll cannot be made, ergo, Phylactery happens AFTER the model has been brought back into play. Also, the use of Phylactery is optionally used piece of wargear.

Now, speaking of floundering arguments...You still haven't come even remotely close to showing how the ResOrb works when the bearer has been removed from game play.

It happens AFTER the RP roll, BEFORE the model is returned to play. It inserts itself in the middle. And the Res Orb works when the model is removed because it must or it contradicts its own rule.

TGA - sigh

You apparently enjoy ignoring the rules. Again

The model is RETURNED TO PLAY WITH D3 WOUNDS.

That means that he has D3 wounds BEFORE returning to play

Meaning your argument is still bunk

Understand yet?

From the new Necron FAQ:

Q: If a model carrying a resurrection orb is removed as
a casualty, can you still benefit from it when rolling for
his, and his unit’s, Reanimation Protocol rolls that
phase? (p82)
A: Yes

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m2170012a_Necron_FAQ_Version_2_0_January_2012.pdf

Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

time wizard wrote:Except for sweeping advance of course!

Well, if these 6th edition rumors are correct then WBB after that one too.

time wizard wrote:Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

What say you TheGreatAvatar after all that opinion on the matter?

Also, the other "easy" issue of EL and RP as described by the 'knowitalls" was also FAQ'd and addressed.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

Byte wrote:What say you TheGreatAvatar after all that opinion on the matter?

Also, the other "easy" issue of EL and RP as described by the 'knowitalls" was also FAQ'd and addressed.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

Don't provoke him, he might call the new FAQ wrong.

time wizard wrote:Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

A unit wiped out by sweeping advance? Place a EL counter. Roll for such EL counter. Sweeping advance doesn't say anything about removing counters only models. According to this FAQ, you get an EL roll even if the unit is wiped out by sweeping advance.

Or am I wrong?

You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

Cyrax wrote:You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

This FAQ says nothing about removed from play. It says wiped out. A unit entirely removed from play, blow off the table, vaporized or killed to the Nth degree - they're still wiped out. And as such they get an EL roll.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
A unit wiped out by sweeping advance? Place a EL counter. Roll for such EL counter. Sweeping advance doesn't say anything about removing counters only models. According to this FAQ, you get an EL roll even if the unit is wiped out by sweeping advance.

Or am I wrong?

Sorry but you're wrong. Sweeping advance doesn't say anything about removing anything. Not counters, not models, not even units. What it does say is "The falling back unit is destroyed."

It also says that no save or other special rule can save the unit, so neither RP or EL does anything if the unit is caught in a sweeping advance.

It is simply destroyed.

Unless of course you're St Celestine. She can (try to) come back from Remove from Play abilities as well as Remove from Play as a Casualty...

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Cyrax wrote:You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

This FAQ says nothing about removed from play. It says wiped out. A unit entirely removed from play, blow off the table, vaporized or killed to the Nth degree - they're still wiped out. And as such they get an EL roll.

Sweeping Advance is even more specific - nothing can save a model from being Swept unless it has explicit protection, like ATSKNF. Everliving doesn't mention SA, so it doesn't save models with it.

Happyjew wrote:Unless of course you're St Celestine. She can (try to) come back from Remove from Play abilities as well as Remove from Play as a Casualty...

Yes she can, but sweeping advance does not either remove a model or unit as a casualty, or remove a model or unit from play, the unit is simply destroyed.

Ste. Celestine, and any other model or unit for that matter, would need a specific rule that says they are immune to sweeping advance to survive it.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Cyrax wrote:You can place a counter when your model is removed from play as casualty. Since sweeping advance simply removes them from play you can't place a counter.

This FAQ says nothing about removed from play. It says wiped out. A unit entirely removed from play, blow off the table, vaporized or killed to the Nth degree - they're still wiped out. And as such they get an EL roll.

Unfortunately you still have to follow SA and RP rules, the FAQ doesn't override them.

I'm not seeing a contradiction. Yes of course, the unit is destroyed and removed from play, and cannot be saved by any special rule.

Put an EL counter where the destroyed character was. You can't stop it, nothing can stop it from being destroyed and removed! Not even as a casualty. Just remove the character from play.

It was destroyed. Now put a token where it was. Now, roll for EL to see if the character reanimates.

Nemesor Dave wrote:I'm not seeing a contradiction. Yes of course, the unit is destroyed and removed from play, and cannot be saved by any special rule.

I emphasised a portion of your post.

Now look at page 29 of Codex Necrons.

Both reanimation protocols and ever-living are listed in the section titled "Necron Special Rules".

Since the destroyed unit cannot be saved by any special rule, the special rules RP and EL cannot save them.

Unless they had a rule that specifically said they were not destroyed by a sweeping advance like ATSKNF as MasterSlowPoke pointed out.

I'm convinced. However I'd still like it if GW would actually come out and say No or Yes vs. sweeping advance. I suppose this still leaves in doubt JAWS allowing or not EL, or is there consensus now that EL and RP work vs JAWS?

IIRC, RP/EL only work when removed as a casualty. since JotWW do not remove models as a casualty, they would not get the roll.

Byte wrote:

time wizard wrote:Yep. A number of us stand corrected on that one.

As well as a character with RP and EL getting removed when the unit it is attached to is wiped out.

Q: If an entire unit, including an attached character
from a Royal Court, is wiped out, do you get to make
any Reanimation Protocol rolls? (p29)
A: You would only get to make one roll for the
attached character as he has the Ever-living special rule.
Note that in this case, he must be placed within 3" of
the counter as his unit has been wiped out.

So EL gives a character a chance to return even if the entire unit it is attached to is wiped out. Except for sweeping advance of course!

What say you TheGreatAvatar after all that opinion on the matter?

Also, the other "easy" issue of EL and RP as described by the 'knowitalls" was also FAQ'd and addressed.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/408670.page

It's not a matter of being right or wrong. It's not like GW is taking sides on the debate. The clarifications have been made so there is little room for further debate. I wasn't surprised by most of the clarifications, including how models created are placed with a unit (no Spyder conga line! what a surprise!!). I was surprised on the ResOrb ruling since it is a bit counter-intuitive having wargear work when not in play (like the previous how the previous ResOrb worked).

TheGreatAvatar wrote:I was surprised on the ResOrb ruling since it is a bit counter-intuitive having wargear work when not in play (like the previous how the previous ResOrb worked).

Actually, in the previous edition, the res orb worked for the lord equipped with it even after he had been a casualty.

From page 13 of the last Necron Codex, the lord can't self repair if it lost it's last wound to a cc weapon that allowed no armor save or a weapon with strength twice the lord's toughness, "...unless it or another Necron Lord within 6" has a Resurrection Orb."

So a lord that had an orb and was removed that way would have had the chance to roll for WBB.

The difference between then and now was that under the old rules, if the Lord with the res orb was removed before the unit, they could not benefit from the res orb.

In the new rule, both the model with the res orb and the unit it is with benefit from the res orb, regardless of when the model with the res orb is removed.

Yep, previously it was a matter of timing, and worked while off table for the bearer AND any model removed prior to the lords removal, contrary to TGAs assertions that wargear never worked while off table....

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, previously it was a matter of timing, and worked while off table for the bearer AND any model removed prior to the lords removal, contrary to TGAs assertions that wargear never worked while off table....

Actually, no.

The previous FAQ was quite clear: the check for whether a model was affected by the ResOrb effect was made at the point the model was damaged. If the model was was in range of the ResOrb at this time it benefited from it. If the model was not in range of the ResOrb it didn't benefit. The benefit was being able to get a WBB roll when otherwise not. Since a Lord with an Orb was, by definition, always in range of the Orb, he always got his WBB roll.

If the ResOrb wasn't on the table no model benefited from it. This is different than the ruling published for the updated ResOrb. A unit with a ResOrb at the beginning of a phase will always get its RP roll regardless of when the bearer is removed.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Yep, previously it was a matter of timing, and worked while off table for the bearer AND any model removed prior to the lords removal, contrary to TGAs assertions that wargear never worked while off table....

Actually, no.

The previous FAQ was quite clear: the check for whether a model was affected by the ResOrb effect was made at the point the model was damaged. If the model was was in range of the ResOrb at this time it benefited from it. If the model was not in range of the ResOrb it didn't benefit. The benefit was being able to get a WBB roll when otherwise not. Since a Lord with an Orb was, by definition, always in range of the Orb, he always got his WBB roll.

If the ResOrb wasn't on the table no model benefited from it. This is different than the ruling published for the updated ResOrb. A unit with a ResOrb at the beginning of a phase will always get its RP roll regardless of when the bearer is removed.

The previous FAQ was this;

Q. When is the range of the resurrection orb
checked? At the time the Necron becomes
damaged or at the start of the turn when WBB is
rolled for?
A. Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board.
Otherwise, immediately remove it from the table
as a casualty.

Now it went this way.
A Necron Lord had a res orb.
He is not attached to a unit.
He was damaged by a close combat weapon that allowed no armor save.
Now we check according to the first sentence at the time he is damaged.
No undamaged model in the unit is within range of the res orb, because the only model in the unit is the Lord with the orb and he is damaged.
But the rule from the codex allowed his to roll for WBB because he was equipped with the orb.

So he was able to benefit from a piece of wargear that was off the table.

TGA - and again you dont seem to know the rules correctly

Time has it SPOT ON - the only way the previous res orb worked for a solo lord (a common way to run him in 4th, for example, in the midst of 3 20 man warrior units so he couldnt be shot) was off the table.

nosferatu1001 wrote:TGA - and again you dont seem to know the rules correctly

Time has it SPOT ON - the only way the previous res orb worked for a solo lord (a common way to run him in 4th, for example, in the midst of 3 20 man warrior units so he couldnt be shot) was off the table.

Again, you're ignoring the fundamental concept of the rule: check the range when the model is damaged, also, the Lord was always treated as a one-off in terms of WBB and ResOrb.

If the ResOrb wasn't on the table, nothing benefited from it. A Lord with and Orb was, by definition, always in range of it affect, thus always benefited from it. When the model was damaged it benefited from the THEN not during WBB (again, the first sentence of the FAQ was clear about this). Thus if a Lord when down in the middle CC, the models around him no longer benefited from the Orb.

This has changed in the codex and clarified in the FAQ. Now, if the ResOrb is with the unit at the start of the phase, ALL models benefit from the ResOrb for the duration of the phase regardless of the bearer being removed. Thus, even though the ResOrb has been removed from the game it still can effect the rest of the unit, i. e., wargear can be used even if removed from the table. This is different than what happened the previous codex.

"Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board. "

This says youre wrong, shocking I know. If the lord was by himself there are NO undamaged necrons in the unit (as the lord is damaged) - soyou shoud have removed the model. You then go back to the codex, and find the lord always gets the benefit of it, even if he is dead

So wargear worked while off the table, and has done since what, 2002?

Finally - please dont respond to this any further. You were wrong, just accept it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"Check range when a Necron becomes
damaged. If at least one (undamaged) model in
the unit is within 6" of a resurrection orb at that
point, leave the damaged Necron on the board. "

This says youre wrong, shocking I know. If the lord was by himself there are NO undamaged necrons in the unit (as the lord is damaged) - soyou shoud have removed the model. You then go back to the codex, and find the lord always gets the benefit of it, even if he is dead

So wargear worked while off the table, and has done since what, 2002?

Finally - please dont respond to this any further. You were wrong, just accept it.

Sigh, the mighty nos has spoken.

So your claim that the res orb worked only when on the table is contradicted directly by the FAQ and the Codex, yet you would still claim differently?

Interesting.

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your claim that the res orb worked only when on the table is contradicted directly by the FAQ and the Codex, yet you would still claim differently?

Interesting.

Wargear does not work when removed from play. The Necron FAQ provides an exception to this specific piece of wargear for this particular army. Trying to draw a broad generalization from this would not be supported in my opinion. The answer to the FAQ question would need to say something to that effect.

-Yad

The FAQ is doing nothing more than clarifying the obvious rule of the orb. There is other wargear that also is used when the model is not in play, such as phylactery.

In general, wargear can't be used when it's not on the table, but that doesn't prevent wargear that is intended to work when not on the table from doing so. (which is more or less what tga was insisting)

Nemesor Dave wrote:I suppose this still leaves in doubt JAWS allowing or not EL, or is there consensus now that EL and RP work vs JAWS?

Happyjew wrote:IIRC, RP/EL only work when removed as a casualty. since JotWW do not remove models as a casualty, they would not get the roll.

AFAIK, St Celestine can come back from Jaws. GW essentially says Remove from Play = Remove from play as a casualty.
While not everyone accepts this as precendent, some others do accept that if her return to play ability works then RP does as well.
To each group their own interpretation.

Yad wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:So your claim that the res orb worked only when on the table is contradicted directly by the FAQ and the Codex, yet you would still claim differently?

Interesting.

Wargear does not work when removed from play. The Necron FAQ provides an exception to this specific piece of wargear for this particular army. Trying to draw a broad generalization from this would not be supported in my opinion. The answer to the FAQ question would need to say something to that effect.

-Yad

Well, apart from Phylactery, which does. Given you have to roll the D3 BEFORE THE MODEL IS RETURNED TO PLAY, and all.

You were wrong on this before, and have been wrong since the 3rd ed necron codex was released. SOME wargear works while off the table

Thanatos_elNyx wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:I suppose this still leaves in doubt JAWS allowing or not EL, or is there consensus now that EL and RP work vs JAWS?

Happyjew wrote:IIRC, RP/EL only work when removed as a casualty. since JotWW do not remove models as a casualty, they would not get the roll.

AFAIK, St Celestine can come back from Jaws. GW essentially says Remove from Play = Remove from play as a casualty.
While not everyone accepts this as precendent, some others do accept that if her return to play ability works then RP does as well.
To each group their own interpretation.

I do not know the actual wording for RP. If it states that it happens when removed from play as a casualty, then their is a precedent. If however it says, that it happens upon losing your last wound, then they would not be able to come back.

RP is removed as a casualty

St Celestine does not set a precedent, as it answers a VERY specific question about Celestine only

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Well, apart from Phylactery, which does. Given you have to roll the D3 BEFORE THE MODEL IS RETURNED TO PLAY, and all.

Phylactery is made AFTER the RP roll has been made thus the model is now part of the game prior to the Phylactery roll.

You were wrong on this before, and have been wrong since the 3rd ed necron codex was released. SOME wargear works while off the table

I guess you hope if you say it enough time times it'll become true.

None of the wargear in the previous Necron codex functioned when a model was damaged (in fact, the WBB rule explicitly stated as such, damaged models were battlefield debris.....)

The updated codex/FAQ now permits the ResOrb to continue to function when the bearer has been removed from game play. This is different then the previous edition when the ResOrb only functioned when on the table (reference the first sentence of the previous FAQ: the checking of the range of the model when the model is damaged).

I'm sure you'll continue to thump your chest and exult how you're right and we're all a bunch of idiots. Knock yourself out. I thought it was just me you do that to but you do it to pretty much anyone who disagrees with you. So it goes.

TGA out.

Sorry, TGA, but stop repeatedly lying. You've been proven wrong about the phylactery at every turn

The model is NOT "returned to play" and you then roll the D3 - it is returned to play WITH D3 wounds, meaning you roll when the model isnt in play.

SHocking that youre still wrong on this, SHOCKING i tell you!

Stop arguing, you have been proven wrong time and time again. The codex for the previous Res Orb says you're wrong, and you STILL Cannot admit it!

Hilarious. Your irrelevancy to actual rules debates increases.

TGA apparently has some daddy issues that need resolving by a trained professional.

Res Orb obviously was made to work even if the model is "out of play". Trying to rules-lawyer just makes you look like
an asshat no one wants to play.

TheGreatAvatar wrote:None of the wargear in the previous Necron codex functioned when a model was damaged (in fact, the WBB rule explicitly stated as such, damaged models were battlefield debris.....)

On this TGA you are incorrect.

Previous edition when a lord was damaged and lost it's last wound to a CC weapon that allowed no armour saves, it did go down as battlefield debris.

However, if it (the lord) was equipped with a res orb, it was allowed to make a WBB roll. (Previous edition Necron Codex, both printings page 13 under 'Necron Lords'.

The res orb, a piece of wargear, functioned even if the lord so equipped was damaged.

@all:

Arguments appear weaker when padded with personal attacks.

That aside, personal attacks, flamebaiting, and flaming are all against our rules. Please desist

Well FAQ is out now and yes you would even if you didn't get the lord back up but just for that phase.