I know we have had these threads before, but I could not seem to dig up the one I needed.
That being the Galactic Republic from Star Wars: The Clone Wars VS The Imperium of Man.
This whole issue being sparked off by another argument and my other DoW playing friends ( Note that these players always play XENOS SCUM, or VILE CURSED HERETICS in our games ), of which faction would be able to crush the other.
My whole idea on the matter being even if the Galactic Republic was bigger, the Imperium has far more dedication to war and the drawing of resources from the planets it does have.
Then there is the whole she-bang on the Guardsmen VS the Clones and the Space Marines VS the Jedi, although it seems that even the Guard would be able to outnumber any clone army, and the Space Marines would be able to outnumber and crush the few in number Jedi.
Thoughts? Ideas?
-Colonel Alexzandvar Douglass, Commander of the Firehawk 1st Armored.
Imperium of Man seems to know nothing but war, whereas the Old Republic had better things to do. In any case, my money is on the side that doesn't have its most powerful warrior getting pwned because he wasn't standing on the higher ground.
1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.
now for why;
space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.
and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.
we know this argument, it comes up all the time.
star trek looses
star wars looses
halo looses
whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.
I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.
1) The Imperium
- Astartes can fight Jedi on par with power weapons and superhuman reflexes; Librarians can overpower Jedi/Sith with ease, since while Force and the Immaterium are similar, the Immaterium in the 40k galaxy has been distorted into the warp, and Jedi/Sith don't know how to counteract daemons and Chaotic influence
- Imperial Guard can match clones in numbers and overwhelm them with armor
- the Navy has a diadvantage in FTL, but the ground troops can hold until reinforcements arrive; lances and nova cannons appear be more powerful than turbolasers, and the Imperial Navy has greater numbers and makes extensive use of versatile torpedoes
- Titans will crush walkers with ease and annihilate clones by the division
2) Chaos
- Jedi/Sith can't match Sorcerers drawing on the warp with less restraint than Librarians; daemons will just be dandy
- Clones are Chaos army waiting to happen, either driven insane by sorcery or resurrected as plague zombies
3) Tyranids
- Must I explain?
4) Eldar
- Eldar can't engage the enemy head-on, they don't have numbers; rather, they'd outflank the enemy and eliminate command, communications, and supplies, effectively beheading the enemy
- Jedi/Sith can't match Farseers and Warlocks
- Eldar have the Webway and their navies can outmaneuver enemy navies with ease
7) Tau
- probably the only 40k race that can't beat Star Wars, but Star Trek can be conquered by the Tau
8) Necrons
- Necrons have the Webway too
- their technology makes even the Eldar look like barbarians
Others: Torpedoes in 40k are enough to crack planets, although it takes three Blackstone Fortresses to destroy a star, something Star Wars and Star Trek accomplishes with torpedoes.
1) The Imperium
- Astartes can fight Jedi on par with power weapons and superhuman reflexes; Librarians can overpower Jedi/Sith with ease, since while Force and the Immaterium are similar, the Immaterium in the 40k galaxy has been distorted into the warp, and Jedi/Sith don't know how to counteract daemons and Chaotic influence
- Imperial Guard can match clones in numbers and overwhelm them with armor
- the Navy has a diadvantage in FTL, but the ground troops can hold until reinforcements arrive; lances and nova cannons appear be more powerful than turbolasers, and the Imperial Navy has greater numbers and makes extensive use of versatile torpedoes
- Titans will crush walkers with ease and annihilate clones by the division
The Death Star would make quick work of them.
Tadashi wrote:2) Chaos
- Jedi/Sith can't match Sorcerers drawing on the warp with less restraint than Librarians; daemons will just be dandy
- Clones are Chaos army waiting to happen, either driven insane by sorcery or resurrected as plague zombies
The Death Star would make quick work of them.
Tadashi wrote:3) Tyranids
- Must I explain?
The Death Star would make quick work of them.
Tadashi wrote:4) Eldar
- Eldar can't engage the enemy head-on, they don't have numbers; rather, they'd outflank the enemy and eliminate command, communications, and supplies, effectively beheading the enemy
- Jedi/Sith can't match Farseers and Warlocks
- Eldar have the Webway and their navies can outmaneuver enemy navies with ease
The Death Star would make really quick work of them.
Tadashi wrote:7) Tau
- probably the only 40k race that can't beat Star Wars, but Star Trek can be conquered by the Tau
The Death Star would make quick work of them.
Tadashi wrote:8) Necrons
- Necrons have the Webway too
- their technology makes even the Eldar look like barbarians
The Death Star would make quick work of them.
Others: Torpedoes in 40k are enough to crack planets, although it takes three Blackstone Fortresses to destroy a star, something Star Wars and Star Trek accomplishes with torpedoes.
The Death Star would make quick work of them.
The Death Star holds enough firepower to destroy planets. Imperials on a planet? Blow it up, no more imperials. Nids on a planet, no more nids, etc...
The laser cannons of a starfighter, like the X-Wing, has enough energy to vaporize another starfighter with just one shot.
The Turbolaser batteries have enough energy to vaporize another capital ship with just a few shots. they could punch through both deflector shields and armor on spaceships with the heaviest defensive layers.
The Death Star's superlaser is able to fire on large capital ships and requires a matter of minutes for its recharge time.
IoM Dead. Nids, Dead. Orks, Dead. surely you get the picture.
umm the death star is as big as a small planet right? The IoM has weapons to blow up planets with and if one torpedo can do it in star wars what do you think some of the 40k weapons will do.
DeathReaper, I clearly have a different memory than you do of Star Wars Episode VI: Return of the Jedi. Cause I remember that last space battle lasting more than 2 minutes once the Star Destroyers got in weapons range of the rebel fleet.
Either that, or I have an entirely different concept of what, "vaporize," means.
Maybe star wars fighter blow up so easily is poor design. Ever think of that. Imperial ships, tanks, everything is way more armored then any republic equivilent.
Marines would slaughter jedi, heck guardmen would slaughter jedi. Bolters are solid slugs. That explode. Jedi goes to deflect one, boom, hes peppered with shrapnel. Jedi are easily killed by clones. Guardmen are better then clones, both in armor, and weaponry.
And fyi bro, death stars dont exsist in the old republic.
Bobthehero wrote:Sun Crusher, the size of an x-wing, can wipe out a solar system.
Killing a planet is absolutely nothing compared to it,
ONE PROBLEM the Sun Crusher didnt exsist in Attack of the Clones. IIRC it was built either at the same time or slightly after the first Death Star. So all of you arguing about the death star, please stop. It isnt relevent to this era of star wars.
Oh, yeah, didn't think about that. Psychic abilities would turn the tide of battle any time. A warp storm erupting all of a sudden would rip apart any ships without a geller field and any unshielded/weakling minds would crack like an egg.
Bobthehero wrote:Sun Crusher, the size of an x-wing, can wipe out a solar system.
Killing a planet is absolutely nothing compared to it,
ONE PROBLEM the Sun Crusher didnt exsist in Attack of the Clones. IIRC it was built either at the same time or slightly after the first Death Star. So all of you arguing about the death star, please stop. It isnt relevent to this era of star wars.
Alexzandvar wrote:
That being the Galactic Republic from Star Wars: The Clone Wars VS The Imperium of Man
The op states it quite clearly that its the Galactic Republic from Star Wars: The Clone Wars. I assume he means the animated tv show. Or maybe even the clone wars era. Hence no advanced tech like the death star, or sun crusher.
Yes but the era card is relevant because its asking if we can beat the Galactic Republic from Star Wars: The Clone Wars era not the stuff they made after it.
Oh and that death star thing... land dreadnoughts on it blow up defences. blow a hole in the side. send in boarding partys(which spacemarines excel at) kill everyone inside.
Or you could just land drop pods specialy fitted with a drill of somesort to dig a hole into the side useing homing beacons teleport termies inside while the termies that came in with the drop pods to kill everyone inside.
Or use the dreadnaughts to blow up defences than use drop pods. Kill everyone inside.
From watching the movies and playing X-Wing vs Tie Fighter a lot when I was a kid, and also spending a lot of time playing BFG, the Imperium of Man would annihilate the Empire in any space engagement, Death Star or no.
The most telling factor is the range and speed of the craft involved. IoM ships would blast Star Destroyers and Death Stars out of space well before the Imperial ships were in range, and have the speed to outpace them with ease. 100mglt, the speed of an x-wing, is around 360kph. Cruising speed for an IoM cruiser is around 10,000 kph, with weapon ranges effective up to 75,000 kilometers.
Assumptions I'm making here are: The 'earth' planet template from BFG is 20cm across. The diameter of the earth is ~12,000 kilometers. A single turn of BFG is one hour.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Unfortunatly ole Star Trek has the nastiest potential weapon and the most useful, if they fix that proto-matter thingie
The Genesis device kill a planet , then make a planet
Green warfare , and I dont mean orky
The novel Grey Knights: Dark Adeptus mentioned something similar existed during the Dark Age of Technology "...machines that wove whole worlds around them...". The Mechanicus probably has the data locked up in a logic engine on Mars.
chaplaincliff wrote:
whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses
The Culture would like a word with you. For that matter, so would the Xeelee.
As would the guys in Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann. And, to be fair, while the Galactic Federation from Star Trek might have problems, the Borg or, God forbid, Q wouldn't have nearly as big problems fighting against the IoM.
Then again, the IoM can always do what they did to Hive Fleet Behemoth.
The Imperium only ever wages brutal war against the greatest horrors in the galaxy and nothing else. Oh yeah, an they also have uncountable billions of people. They have the Space Marines whose discipline and teamwork is nigh impossible to overcome, and the Imperial Guard will just throw themselves at you until you die.
How can any other sci-fi universe stand up to that? They lose in simple numbers alone.
40k has superior military capability, not just in numbers and historically, but also since reality and non-reality can and does overlap. Gods and daemons traverse reality with ease...
The 2 Emperor's alone are enough to handle this argument. Step 1: 40k Emperor shows up Step 2: SW Emperor gaks his pants Step 3: ??????? Step 4: 40k profits
I think the one's he's refering to is the one where there's a Star Destroyer on screen and an Emperor Battleship slowly appears from the bottom of the image. My Google-fu seems to have failed me ATM though...
ZacktheChaosChild wrote:The Imperium only ever wages brutal war against the greatest horrors in the galaxy and nothing else. Oh yeah, an they also have uncountable billions of people. They have the Space Marines whose discipline and teamwork is nigh impossible to overcome, and the Imperial Guard will just throw themselves at you until you die.
How can any other sci-fi universe stand up to that? They lose in simple numbers alone.
A single Culture ship, which had its primary purpose as a museum, built a fleet of over 100,000 ships, in 40 years, in it's spare time, before anyone noticed. The smallest Culture warship can slag a world into molten rock while travelling faster than light at a range of more than a light year. There is no way the Imperium can win a war against the whole Culture civilisation. Or anyone in 40k for that matter. God forbid they went up against the Xeelee.
Star Wars or the Federation however....there should be no contest. Imperium wins because one of their ships could probably eat a federation ship and burp out its crew given how huge they are.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:I think the one's he's refering to is the one where there's a Star Destroyer on screen and an Emperor Battleship slowly appears from the bottom of the image. My Google-fu seems to have failed me ATM though...
I was indeed, my google-fu also failed. However, that one works just as well!
Yes this about the Clones Wars era, since I have seen the Galactic Empire VS the Imperium of Man done to death.
The problem arises because the Galactic Empire has far far to many little tiny "Single use Superweapons", IE: A super weapon is used eluded to in one Expanded Universe book then people assume that the Empire has these weapons coming out the wazzo.
Not to mention the Death Star is a pretty dumb concept and weapon against the Imperium, considering they have weaponry to blow up planet sized objects. You don't need to shoot it down the exhaust pipe, just hit it right on with a Torpedo.
Also bringing into the matter that the Imperium fights fleet battles at absurdly large distances, and that they would be able to just sit at any point within a system and blow the Republics fleets into pulp.
Sierk wrote:Umm that thing about the culture civilisation. Necrons could blow up the entire system the culture civilisations in.
"oh look a culture ship"
BOOOM!
Erm... It is pretty well established that Culture is pervasive throughout the Milky Way and also has at least a presence in the Magellanic cloud galaxies.
So far in 40K only the Tyranids (and possibly Orks) have expanded from a single galaxy.
As for Tech level, don't know enough of the Necron fluff, but a Culture civilian vessel escapes destruction by hiding in the upper layers of a star. Doesn't sound like an easy kill for anyone.
As for weight of numbers, Culture population is given at approx. 30 trillion sentient beings (including AI).
Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:
We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.
I think star trek has an advantage since they have so many main characters with actual names while theyll be fighting mostly no named worthless idiots.
Too many assumptions made in comparison to posit anything worthwhile in the debate. Separate universes, different fiction, and things don't overlap nicely.
Sierk wrote:Oh and that death star thing... land dreadnoughts on it blow up defences. blow a hole in the side. send in boarding partys(which spacemarines excel at) kill everyone inside.
Or you could just land drop pods specialy fitted with a drill of somesort to dig a hole into the side useing homing beacons teleport termies inside while the termies that came in with the drop pods to kill everyone inside.
Or use the dreadnaughts to blow up defences than use drop pods. Kill everyone inside.
3 ways to deal with a death star
The death star Heavy Turbolaser batteries would make quick work of Drop pods.
As for the other ships, the Ion cannons would neutralize their systems and leave them dead in space, with no hope.
It was never a viable weapon, it had a singular purpose and that was to remove planets with problem races. It is not even feasible for it to try and fight ship to ship or fleet to fleet battles.
That is the entire reason it was destroyed in the first place (and the second), because it requires a fleet with it to safe guard it.
Could he even get close? He'd be squashed like a bug by the Emperor's psychic might or have his face torn off by the Emperor's talon-like lightning claw.
Tadashi wrote:Could he even get close? He'd be squashed like a bug by the Emperor's psychic might or have his face torn off by the Emperor's talon-like lightning claw.
Good point, would be extra fun if the Emperor just created a warp storm on top of Corasant.
I'm not going to bother reading any of the other posts in this thread because I already know that I know more about Star Wars then anyone else here, and therefore no one's considered my point.
The average travel time of the fastest Imperium of Man ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of years.
The average travel time of the fastest Republic ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of days.
On that matter alone, the Republic would crush the Imperium of Man.
The Galactic Empire, which is much, much larger (in fact the largest and most powerful faction in the SW mythos), would destroy not just the Imperium but all the factions in the WH40K galaxy, by itself. Superior firepower, superior range, superior range. That's all it takes.
*cough*Webway*cough*
The Imperium if the HH didn't happen, would have the Webway under their control, has a completely evolved psychic Human race, psychic technology adapted from the Eldar, shield and teleportation technology adapted from the Orks, and perfect Astartes thanks to recovered Golden Age of Technology (note the Great Crusade term) technology. Any questions, Republic, Empire, Sith, Jedi?
Is, according to the Eldar 4E codex, falling apart and doesn't work in many parts of the Galaxy, and is also only large enough for the most part to transport small strike forces, not huge ships or battle fleets.
Castiel wrote:Wheres that handy comparison of a 40k navy ship and an Imperial Ship?
Right here.
So yes. The imperium would wipe the floor with any Star Wars faction.
I love this picture. The cruiser doesn't even properly fit in there, and it's only a mid sized IoM ship. Star Trek ships are about the size of its torpedo tubes.
Bobthehero wrote:Sun Crusher, the size of an x-wing, can wipe out a solar system.
Killing a planet is absolutely nothing compared to it,
He destroyed it during the Battle of the Maw Installation, where it was sucked into one of the Maw's black holes along with the Death Star prototype. Kyp survived by escaping in a message pod, though he suffered serious injuries in the process. Durron used the Force to slow himself almost to the point of suspended animation and crammed himself into the tiny message cylinder.
There was only one......
Blackstone fortresses could destroy entire systems dude. Its just they were suppressed. Planet Killers could blow up a planet in seconds.
Is, according to the Eldar 4E codex, falling apart and doesn't work in many parts of the Galaxy, and is also only large enough for the most part to transport small strike forces, not huge ships or battle fleets.
Try again, Bragg.
Once again, if I compare the Imperium without the HH, the conquered Black Library will give the Emperor the ability to expand and repair the Webway.
I wonder what would happen if you shot a deathstar with a blackstone fortress... dead deathstar probably and that makes the deathstar match its name, dead.
Tadashi wrote:Ram a battleship into the Death Star and detonate the warp drives. See you on the other side!
Yea that happened with the Executor, you know, Vaders Flagship, and Super Star Destroyer that actually did crash into the Death Star, and the Death Star was unharmed?
it takes more than that to destroy the Death Star.
Tadashi wrote:Ram a battleship into the Death Star and detonate the warp drives. See you on the other side!
Yea that happened with the Executor, you know, Vaders Flagship, and Super Star Destroyer that actually did crash into the Death Star, and the Death Star was unharmed?
it takes more than that to destroy the Death Star.
You do realize that the star engine inside of an Imperial Navy Emperor Class Battleship is so massive that when activated to overload IT DESTROYED AN ENTIRE TYRANID HIVE FLEET! Thats not being rude. That is highlighting the fact that it destroyed a tyranid hive fleet.
Tadashi wrote:Ram a battleship into the Death Star and detonate the warp drives. See you on the other side!
Yea that happened with the Executor, you know, Vaders Flagship, and Super Star Destroyer that actually did crash into the Death Star, and the Death Star was unharmed?
it takes more than that to destroy the Death Star.
You do realize that the star engine inside of an Imperial Navy Emperor Class Battleship is so massive that when activated to overload IT DESTROYED AN ENTIRE TYRANID HIVE FLEET!
Thats not being rude. That is highlighting the fact that it destroyed a tyranid hive fleet.
Not only that, but an IoM battleship is so massive compared to the executor, it wouldn't need to detonate its star drives. Look at the above size comparisons for IoM mid-sized ships and Star Destroyers.
Tadashi wrote:Ram a battleship into the Death Star and detonate the warp drives. See you on the other side!
Yea that happened with the Executor, you know, Vaders Flagship, and Super Star Destroyer that actually did crash into the Death Star, and the Death Star was unharmed?
it takes more than that to destroy the Death Star.
You do realize that the star engine inside of an Imperial Navy Emperor Class Battleship is so massive that when activated to overload IT DESTROYED AN ENTIRE TYRANID HIVE FLEET! Thats not being rude. That is highlighting the fact that it destroyed a tyranid hive fleet.
Not only that, but an IoM battleship is so massive compared to the executor, it wouldn't need to detonate its star drives. Look at the above size comparisons for IoM mid-sized ships and Star Destroyers.
Actually Super Star Destroyers and an IoM battleship are actually the same size. I like how the writer of Jeff Russell's Starship dimensions forgot that the size of a Cruiser is 7.5 KM and that an Emperors Class is double the size *facepalm*
-Loki- wrote:Good point - I recently rewatched Jedi but I keep forgetting just how big that thing was.
Its okay. These Starwars vs Warhammer 40k threads always win because we are talking about established fluff not fanmade material. So the other super destroyer things don't count. If they will count those then we can count the life eater virus good luck trying to isolate those. You tried to eradicate a certain virus but turns out that virus slaughtered everyone else.
-Loki- wrote:Good point - I recently rewatched Jedi but I keep forgetting just how big that thing was.
Its okay. These Starwars vs Warhammer 40k threads always win because we are talking about established fluff not fanmade material. So the other super destroyer things don't count. If they will count those then we can count the life eater virus good luck trying to isolate those. You tried to eradicate a certain virus but turns out that virus slaughtered everyone else.
Not understanding this. The life eater is established fluff. It was established fluff before the HH series.
-Loki- wrote:Good point - I recently rewatched Jedi but I keep forgetting just how big that thing was.
Its okay. These Starwars vs Warhammer 40k threads always win because we are talking about established fluff not fanmade material. So the other super destroyer things don't count. If they will count those then we can count the life eater virus good luck trying to isolate those. You tried to eradicate a certain virus but turns out that virus slaughtered everyone else.
Not understanding this. The life eater is established fluff. It was established fluff before the HH series.
No what I am saying is the Imperium gets unlimited amounts of the life eater virus and just uses that to fight the battles planet. virused bombed. Death star virused bombed.
Star Wars mega super ship? Virus bombed. Good luck dealing with a virus that eats through all organic material.
BlaxicanX wrote:I'm not going to bother reading any of the other posts in this thread because I already know that I know more about Star Wars then anyone else here, and therefore no one's considered my point.
The average travel time of the fastest Imperium of Man ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of years.
The average travel time of the fastest Republic ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of days.
On that matter alone, the Republic would crush the Imperium of Man.
Point considered, and you're wrong. SW ships cannot engage at FTL speeds, and their sublight speeds are a fraction of the speeds of 40K ships. In fact at sublight speeds 40K ships are around 190 times faster than their SW counterparts.
Being able to get places really fast is no good if you get there and get blown to pieces.
BlaxicanX wrote:I'm not going to bother reading any of the other posts in this thread because I already know that I know more about Star Wars then anyone else here, and therefore no one's considered my point.
The average travel time of the fastest Imperium of Man ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of years.
The average travel time of the fastest Republic ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of days.
On that matter alone, the Republic would crush the Imperium of Man.
Point considered, and you're wrong. SW ships cannot engage at FTL speeds, and their sublight speeds are a fraction of the speeds of 40K ships. In fact at sublight speeds 40K ships are around 190 times faster than their SW counterparts.
Being able to get places really fast is no good if you get there and get blown to pieces.
BlaxicanX wrote:I'm not going to bother reading any of the other posts in this thread because I already know that I know more about Star Wars then anyone else here, and therefore no one's considered my point.
The average travel time of the fastest Imperium of Man ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of years.
The average travel time of the fastest Republic ships, from one side of the galaxy to the other, is a matter of days.
On that matter alone, the Republic would crush the Imperium of Man.
Point considered, and you're wrong. SW ships cannot engage at FTL speeds, and their sublight speeds are a fraction of the speeds of 40K ships. In fact at sublight speeds 40K ships are around 190 times faster than their SW counterparts.
Being able to get places really fast is no good if you get there and get blown to pieces.
And even if that were true, which it isn't, that'd be irrelevant. By the time any sizable force of Imperium ships would be able to arrive at a system to support it, the battle would have ended months or even years prior.
These discussions are always so silly. The Galaxy Gun can fire a planet destroying bullet that travels hundreds of times faster than lightspeed from one side of the galaxy to the other. There's literally nothing stopping it from pressing a button and destroying Terra from the other side of the galaxy with a single shot, destroying the Emperor and thus the astrnomicon, as well as the High Lords of Terra and the hub of the majority or the Imperium's most sensitive governing bodies, which would pretty much cripple the entire Imperium and drown them in even more bureaucratic bs than they already are. There's nothing stopping the Suncrusher from popping up out of the blue right in the middle of the Sol system and making its sun go supernova, again with just a press of a button, wiping out not just Terra but also Mars. This can be done to those planets, this can be done to Cadia, this can be done to Macragge, etc ad infinitum, and the Imperium has literally zero defense against this because their mobility is complete gak. It takes less than five minutes to "make the jump to lightspeed". The Imperium will never be able to catch any of the Imperial ships. It'd be a slaughter.
BlaxicanX wrote:And even if that were true, which it isn't, that'd be irrelevant. By the time any sizable force of Imperium ships would be able to arrive at a system to support it, the battle would have ended months or even years prior.
Nonsense. Even a tiny 40K defense contingent would have more than enough time to destroy an SW force, at sublight speeds. A single Thunderhawk would have enough time to take off from the planets surface, fly into space, intercept and destroy the Suncrusher, and STILL have time to return to base, reload and refuel, watch a movie, have some dinner, go home for the day, then return to the base in the morning, fly back out into space and destroy the remainder of the SW forces who are still crawling along at a top speed of 360kph.
A thunderhawk can travel at around 75,000kph. The 40K Navy can engage effectively at 150,000 kilometers.
Being able to get places really fast is great, but once the SW ships get there they are hamstrung by crawling sublight speeds and laughable weapons ranges. At sublight, an entire squadron of fighters could be eliminated by a single armed shuttle, while any kind of fire-ship would make a mockery of Star Destroyers. Simply load it with explosives and plow it into the bridge at speeds so fast the ISD has no chance to react. Let alone actually engaging with a 40K ship of the line.
It'd be like using the Concorde to transport a race car. You could get it to the racetrack faster than anyone else, for sure. But if you're entering a ride-on Lawn-mower in the F1 Grand Prix, then whats the point?
Kaldor wrote:[
A thunderhawk can travel at around 75,000kph.
Can you provide a source for this?
The 40K Navy can engage effectively at 150,000 kilometers.
And this?
That aside, a thunderhawk wouldn't be able to destroy a Sun Crusher. It's only the size of a small fighter but its armor makes it more durable than a planet. It literally has withstood a death star shot, and was still able to function afterwards. There's nothing in the Imperium that can handle that... not in less than ten seconds, which is how long it would take for the Sun Crusher to press the "destroy sun" button and make it go supernova. If you consider that the Necrons using inertia-less drives and managing to get to Mars itself before being blown apart. I don't understand what do you think is stopping the suncrusher from coming out of hyperspace a few thousand miles from the sun and just letting it rip from there?
What's stopping the Galaxy Gun from doing it from the other side of the galaxy, which I notice you neglected to comment on?
Or the Centerpoint Station, which can create a gravity field the size of a galaxy that is so intense that it stops the rotation of planets and ships moving at FTLx100 are slowed down by it to a complete stop?
Or even the Death Star itself, which is also of firing its beam on a dime?
All of these things have top of the line hyperdrives that allows them to travel at hundreds of times the speed of light. There's nothing in all of the 40K mythos that can do crap to these things, because they can't even reach them. I think that that's what you're not understanding.
I know, but they're so much fun right?
Only when both sides are fully aware of each faction's capabilties. Otherwise it just becomes doing what I do above; explaining things. Not that that's a bad thing.
chaplaincliff wrote:1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.
now for why;
space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.
and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.
we know this argument, it comes up all the time.
star trek looses
star wars looses
halo looses
whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.
I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.
Not true, I have seen 40k wins in Halo and Star Wars forums. Simply because there is only war in 40k, were even the basic solder ( Cadian Trooper ) is more trained and with bigger expiriance then some of the most elite solders of other universes ( Spartan or Stormtrooper ).
chaplaincliff wrote:1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.
now for why;
space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.
and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.
we know this argument, it comes up all the time.
star trek looses
star wars looses
halo looses
whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.
I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.
Not true, I have seen 40k wins in Halo and Star Wars forums. Simply because there is only war in 40k, were even the basic solder ( Cadian Trooper ) is more trained and with bigger expiriance then some of the most elite solders of other universes ( Spartan or Stormtrooper ).
Wait, what?
How does your average Guardsmen have more experience? Their average lifespan in a war zone is what, like 6 minutes or something like that?
How does your average Guardsmen have more experience? Their average lifespan in a war zone is what, like 6 minutes or something like that?
Because they are trained from childhood?
They became Guardsman as soon as they reach adulthood.
Average lifespan of Guardsman depends, conscript is 15 hours, professional Guardsmen is much bigger.
BlaxicanX wrote:And even if that were true, which it isn't, that'd be irrelevant. By the time any sizable force of Imperium ships would be able to arrive at a system to support it, the battle would have ended months or even years prior.
Nonsense. Even a tiny 40K defense contingent would have more than enough time to destroy an SW force, at sublight speeds. A single Thunderhawk would have enough time to take off from the planets surface, fly into space, intercept and destroy the Suncrusher,
Thunderhawk destroying the Suncrusher?
The damn thing survived a glancing hit for the Death Star main laser, no way in hell that Thunderhawk will do anything and once the sun wiping torpedo is launcher, aint much to do.
Lances and nova cannons can engage targets at greater ranges, while 40k torpedoes are more versatile. And hello, if you detonate a Star Wars star ship, all you get is a nuclear explosion, but if you detonate a 40k ship, you get a @#$%^&* portal to hell. The Sun Crusher was destroyed by a black hole. An out of control warp portal is the same. And it doesn't matter if the Galaxy Gun can hit Terra from the other side of the galaxy, the Emperor erects a dimensional field/warp shield around Terra and sends the shot into the warp or "back to sender". The Death Star is only the size of a moon, even a single Inquisition/Astartes vessel has enough cyclonic torpedoes to blow it apart by approaching from the blind side. 40k FTL may be slow, but in sub-light speed, we're faster, and in ground combat we're definitely superior. And you can fry/control the Sun Crusher's pilot with a powerful enough psyker.
Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:
We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.
No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.
*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.
Bobthehero wrote:
The damn thing survived a glancing hit for the Death Star main laser, no way in hell that Thunderhawk will do anything and once the sun wiping torpedo is launcher, aint much to do.
Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k. I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling. Q, meet this guy: We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.
No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.
*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.
And the gods of 40k can't alter reality? The Emperor, the Chaos Powers, and the old Eldar Gods do that on a regular basis, popping warp storms and twisting the fabric of reality apart and overlapping it with the insanity of the warp. And the C'tan have been described as omnipotent as well.
chaplaincliff wrote:1st off, we are on a 40k forum, thus 40k wins, no matter what.
now for why;
space marines and exterminatus, i did some research, i had a good thing to say, but you know what, we all know the answer, one space marine is worth 20 clones, or more. and at the time of the clone wars the empire had no planet killing weapon, but the empire has three that i can think of off hand, and one only kills all life, allowing for resettlement.
and as for jedi vs. marines, the jedi use fancy tricks, but can they stop 20 or more bolter shots coming at them at the same time from a single squad of marines? yeah the jedi may take out a few marines with that fancy sword of his, but i will bet he can't win 5-1 or for sure 10-1 odds against him.
we know this argument, it comes up all the time.
star trek looses
star wars looses
halo looses
whatever other sci-fi universe you have....looses.
I don't want to sound mean, I know I have, but this is easy, just do some research, and you can prove your friends wrong so fast they wont even know what hit them.
Not true, I have seen 40k wins in Halo and Star Wars forums. Simply because there is only war in 40k, were even the basic solder ( Cadian Trooper ) is more trained and with bigger expiriance then some of the most elite solders of other universes ( Spartan or Stormtrooper ).
Wait, what?
How does your average Guardsmen have more experience? Their average lifespan in a war zone is what, like 6 minutes or something like that?
Not true at all mate. The average lifespan of a guardaman is not 6 minutes, no idea why people say that, nor is it 15 hours, that was the lifespan of a raw recruit on a ork infested world. The guard does lose alot of soldiers daily, but thats due to them having trillions of soldiers fighting on millions of worlds.
If the lifespan really was 6 minutes, there would be no Imperial Guard, but they ve been defending and explanding the IoM for 10000 years. The guard is the Imperiums first line of defense in a hostile galaxy.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Its common knowledge that Big E can create warpstorms, and psykers can alter your perception of reallity. In one of the Eisenhorn books a psyker made him take his side arm and shoot him in the head with it. The only reason Eisenhorn survived was that another friendly psyker jamed his gun. Therefore Big E could make warpstorms appear and swallow these super weapons (which are really quite stupid anyway) or a psyker could make the pilots/operators kill themselves, or just make their heads explode. And Empire ships have no protection from psykic powers. Source The truce at Bakatu where the lizard guys could steal your soul using a force sensitive, through the hull of a ship.
Wow, for once we agree on something, Mr. ObliviousBlueCaboose. The Imperial Guard's heavy casualties are the sum of galaxy-wide campaigns, not a single battlefield, and the gods of 40k are more than capable of shattering reality if they intervene. And quite correct, Star Wars vessels have no protection from psychic abilities, unlike 40k vessels which are shielded psychically since they're designed to enter the warp, which is a psychic realm and has been described as hell sometimes.
Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:
We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.
No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.
*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.
And the gods of 40k can't alter reality? The Emperor, the Chaos Powers, and the old Eldar Gods do that on a regular basis, popping warp storms and twisting the fabric of reality apart and overlapping it with the insanity of the warp. And the C'tan have been described as omnipotent as well.
The C'tan were defeated by their own slaves. The Q travel through time on numerous occations, turn people into amoebae just because and teleports a Borg Cube from across the galaxy. They're LITERALLY omnipotent, bar being able to harm eachother. You can't win against beings that transcend time and space. If the C'tan were on that level of power, why would they EVER fall to their slaves in the first place. Likewise, if the Emperor was that powerful, why do the Chaos Gods exist at all?
Again, OMNIPOTENT. Per definition impossible to beat.
Now I like star wars and star trek as well as 40k. And Id have to say, the IoM would dominate the space battles, since both SW and ST seem to think battles happen at 100s of kilometers while 40k happen at 100000s of km. Ground warfare, if we allow extended universe for both sw and st, star trek loses to PDFs. Star Wars would be a better fight. But the Empire seems to lack armor. Their ground forces seem to be Infantry and light tanks. Plus walkers. I dont see how they could beat the Imperial Guard. As for Jedi, they seem to get owned by the Clones and Imperial Guardsmen are better armored, and trained. Seeing as all the clones do i. The movies is march in formation and fire. Guardsmen take cover and use other tactics. Plus long range artillery, and heavy armor.
The average combat life span of a guardsman is probably less than 6 min, not total life span. How is a guy with a t shirt and a flash light better armed and armored than a clone trooper. Imperial guard are probably about as good as the guys on the blockade runner in the opening of episode IV. The storm troopers owner them....on a boarding mission no less! They are more in line with the rebels that were defending Hoth.
Guard suck, always have always will. The win with numbers. They rarely rely on experience, especially the way the game is played now. "Hey you survived a battle, here is a melta gun join this suicide squad!"
Fluff and rules are completely different, in game even space marines can shoot only about 50 yards. Playing battle fleet Gothic, same thing, you can use fluff to give range estimates and power outputs, but in game range is pathetic.
If we're talking about the clone wars, then I reckon the jedi would be amazing and create a very close-fought match. If Episodes IV-VI, then I reckon the Empire would win, their epic ships and the Death Star plus Dark Troopers and geeky blahdeblah being amazing.
Unless the Imperium fights like they do in the ridiculous fluff, in which case one space marine would probably destroy a legion of clones with ease, making 40k win.
You have to remember that in the fluff Storm troopers are BAD asses, yeah in the movies they get beat up by care bears. It all depends on your sources of information.
Andrew1975 wrote:The average combat life span of a guardsman is probably less than 6 min, not total life span. How is a guy with a t shirt and a flash light better armed and armored than a clone trooper. Imperial guard are probably about as good as the guys on the blockade runner in the opening of episode IV. The storm troopers owner them....on a boarding mission no less! They are more in line with the rebels that were defending Hoth.
Guard suck, always have always will. The win with numbers. They rarely rely on experience, especially the way the game is played now. "Hey you survived a battle, here is a melta gun join this suicide squad!"
Fluff and rules are completely different, in game even space marines can shoot only about 50 yards. Playing battle fleet Gothic, same thing, you can use fluff to give range estimates and power outputs, but in game range is pathetic.
Ive been using the fluff. And from what ive read on both, guardsmen would own the clones. The basic guns of both are about equal, yet in star wars the armor does nothing, the blaster punches right through. Guardsmens flak armor stops lasguns. And friend, stop using the tabletop. Lasguns and flak armor is only flashlights and t shirts in game. In the fluff they are alot better. And no the IG doesnt win just by numbers. They use tactics and if that fails they then result to a war of attration. And to nip this ib the bud, commissars are there to enforce disipline, give tactical advise and as a last resort kill a retreater. Stoo buying into the flanderized IG. The IG is a highly trained professional army that has ample tanks, artillery, and support elements. You will have some officers like chenkov, but for every chenkov you have officers like creed, gaunt, al rhaim ect.
So we should use the fluff based on the game that came out first, instead of the actual game rules and universe that inspired the fluff! Huh?
It's a matter of perspective. Which is why the tread is always pretty stupid. There are so many different sources that the question can never really be debated.
In the books stormtroopers are almost on par with space marines. Rebels gak their pants when the stormtroopers show up. In the movie they are comic relief and even though they shoot so precisely "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" in combat they can't hit the side of a barn.
In the books their armor is pretty good able to withstand multiple blasts and almost all physical munitions, in the movie a teddy bear can poke it with a stick!
You can do the same for almost any 40k reference.
But universally IG SUCK! Maybe not the entire arm, but the soldiers SUCK, HARD. The whole concept was based on the Russian army during WW2. How did they win, they just threw bodies at Germans. Same as IG. Fluff is exactly what it sounds like. It's fluffy it makes you feel good as an IG player. If they wrote fluff based on the game, an IG book would be 2 pages maybe. I showed up, I died, the end. 1 page if you are a 1st or 2nd ed guardmen. "What's this grenade? Gas...Fuuuuuuu!"
Quantity virtually ALWAYS beats Quality. Thermopalyae(?) WW2 eastern front. Hello Mr.Jedi. Meet Grimaldus, this marine survived a cathederal falling on him purely because he didnt feel like dying yet. and the SM chapters. and the 6/7,000 strong BT. and SW. and the IG. and here is the Inquisition just for good measure.
And Sun Crusher. Meet a Nova cannon. We have lots of these. and the Imperial navy. and the BT/SW/SM fleets. and exterminatus
Automatically Appended Next Post: Try firing your gun from what amounts to a black hole
In that case lets use the star wars rules for a table top war game... Oh wait. There isnt one! Wh40k wins by defalt. No contrst. Thank you Andrew1975.
And no in the game guardsmen dont drop like flies. Jeez man, again that was early fluff. Back when marines where also cops. And t3. Now the Imperial Guard is one of the best armies, and if we go by the current game as you suggest, the Guard is an elite mechinized army, capable of wiping out all that stand before them. So again if we use your view that we use game play, the clones are wiped out by a barrage of missiles, as gunships drop elite troops off, massacuring the survivers, then a wall of chimeras wipe out the rest. Which isnt that different from the fluff...
Andrew1975 wrote:So we should use the fluff based on the game that came out first, instead of the actual game rules and universe that inspired the fluff! Huh?
It's a matter of perspective. Which is why the tread is always pretty stupid. There are so many different sources that the question can never really be debated.
In the books stormtroopers are almost on par with space marines. Rebels gak their pants when the stormtroopers show up. In the movie they are comic relief and even though they shoot so precisely "only imperial stormtroopers are so precise" in combat they can't hit the side of a barn.
In the books their armor is pretty good able to withstand multiple blasts and almost all physical munitions, in the movie a teddy bear can poke it with a stick!
You can do the same for almost any 40k reference.
But universally IG SUCK! Maybe not the entire arm, but the soldiers SUCK, HARD. The whole concept was based on the Russian army during WW2. How did they win, they just threw bodies at Germans. Same as IG. Fluff is exactly what it sounds like. It's fluffy it makes you feel good as an IG player. If they wrote fluff based on the game, an IG book would be 2 pages maybe. I showed up, I died, the end. 1 page if you are a 1st or 2nd ed guardmen. "What's this grenade? Gas...Fuuuuuuu!"
Have you read 40k fluff? The Books? Dan Abnett? Ciaphas cain? Hell even in the Game Space Marine just a couple of them hold an entire gate against orks. I'm sorry mate but Stormtroopers = Space Marines is just insane you can't compare a Super Human Soldier to a guy that is cannon fodder. We have discussed this to death.
BlaxicanX wrote:Can you provide a source for this?
And this?
BFG estimates. The 'earth' template is around 20cm across. The Earth itself is around 24,000kms in diameter. Making 10cm in game the equivalent of around 12,000kms. I'm assuming a game turn of BFG is around one hour, although it could be much less. Cruising speed for an Imperial Cruiser is 20cm, or 24,000kms per hour. Weapons ranges are between 30 and 60cm, or 36,000 and 72,000kms, with Nova Cannon ranging up to 150cm or 180,000kms.
That aside, a thunderhawk wouldn't be able to destroy a Sun Crusher. It's only the size of a small fighter but its armor makes it more durable than a planet. It literally has withstood a death star shot, and was still able to function afterwards. There's nothing in the Imperium that can handle that... not in less than ten seconds, which is how long it would take for the Sun Crusher to press the "destroy sun" button and make it go supernova. If you consider that the Necrons using inertia-less drives and managing to get to Mars itself before being blown apart. I don't understand what do you think is stopping the suncrusher from coming out of hyperspace a few thousand miles from the sun and just letting it rip from there?
Jeez, all a Thawk would have to do is open its front cargo bay, jam the Suncrusher inside it, and the fly back to base. Or just send some Marines EVA to open up the thing with chainfists. Best case scenario the thing gets to detonate a single star, before the ship itself is captured and rendered useless.
And your Galaxy gun? Prognosticars predict it's location and firing arc, and the Inquisition deals with it before it even has a chance to fire. Game, set and match.
DeathReaper wrote:Estimating ranges from a tabletop game is not a good way to go about it.
As you can calculate all sorts of strange distances due to the scale of it not exactly being to scale.
I doubt the 'earth' template is to scale. It is probably more of an estimation to aid gameplay.
Ever Read the 3rd Ed or the books? In one of them an Warlord titan was seen rampaging through an entire sector it took a long time for the imperium to destroy it.
The estimations? Are you serious? Ever read Dark Hersey, Deathwatch and Battlefleet Gothic?
They give us the things we are talking about
The third ed book gives us a look at how big a bolter 'bolt' is. And how effective it was.
Its a mini rocket. That can punch through light tank armor.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DeathReaper wrote:Estimating ranges from a tabletop game is not a good way to go about it.
As you can calculate all sorts of strange distances due to the scale of it not exactly being to scale.
I doubt the 'earth' template is to scale. It is probably more of an estimation to aid gameplay.
Never use the Death Star as an example, it was destroyed by around 20 fighters at peak efficiency, it could not pierce the shields of certain craft, it's out gunned by most craft, Orks would infest it, Imperium would crush it, Eldar disable it and all the other races are fully capable of defeating it.
Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:
We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.
No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.
*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.
And the gods of 40k can't alter reality? The Emperor, the Chaos Powers, and the old Eldar Gods do that on a regular basis, popping warp storms and twisting the fabric of reality apart and overlapping it with the insanity of the warp. And the C'tan have been described as omnipotent as well.
The C'tan were defeated by their own slaves. The Q travel through time on numerous occations, turn people into amoebae just because and teleports a Borg Cube from across the galaxy. They're LITERALLY omnipotent, bar being able to harm eachother. You can't win against beings that transcend time and space. If the C'tan were on that level of power, why would they EVER fall to their slaves in the first place. Likewise, if the Emperor was that powerful, why do the Chaos Gods exist at all?
Again, OMNIPOTENT. Per definition impossible to beat.
Ever heard of the Great Game? The gods don't use their full power since they're not participants in the galactic wars and crises, just onlookers who reward whom they see fit. Hell, even the Emperor probably has been sitting on the same table and playing the Game since the HH, even if His body stays locked up on the Throne ("I'm retired." - the Emperor).
blood reaper wrote:Never use the Death Star as an example, it was destroyed by around 20 fighters at peak efficiency, it could not pierce the shields of certain craft, it's out gunned by most craft, Orks would infest it, Imperium would crush it, Eldar disable it and all the other races are fully capable of defeating it.
Indeed, really the Imperium it's self could field ships almost as large as the Death Star in such numbers as to make any use of it pointless, as it would be mobbed and killed at first use. Not to even mention that the Imperium as my signature says is willing to go to any length in order to win, large fleet entering system? Warp rest of the ships out and leave one behind to detonate it's warp engines. Enjoy Hell Imperial/ Republic fleet.
Also never mind the fact that the Imperium could sit it's fleets just with in any point in a system and attack the enemy fleet before it can even get into range.
blood reaper wrote:Never use the Death Star as an example, it was destroyed by around 20 fighters at peak efficiency, it could not pierce the shields of certain craft, it's out gunned by most craft, Orks would infest it, Imperium would crush it, Eldar disable it and all the other races are fully capable of defeating it.
They don't want to see what they don't want to see. *Imperium - Space Marines are better assault troops and spearheads - Imperial Guard are better equipped (lots and lots of tanks) and fight wars better - Imperial Navy have inferior FTL but have the same advantages as the Imperial Guard, not to mention having weapons that outrange SW ships (lance and nova cannons) or are more versatile (torpedoes) - Titans can crack defenses like nothing else - Sisters are more badass the Jedi/Sith
*Chaos - see Space Marines for Chaos Space Marines - daemons and sorcery...need I say any more
*Tyranids - nom nom nom
*Eldar - the Webway gives them superior FTL - can cut enemy forces to pieces much more easily than even SM or CSM
*Dark Eldar - see Eldar
*Orks - WAAAAAGGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...need I say any more
*Tau - can conquer the Star Trek galaxy with ease
*Necrons - have technology even superior to the Eldar and are effectively immortal
*Others - 40k has gods who have never really used their omnipotence to the full since they're onlookers, not participants, and if they wanted too, could turn reality inside out on a whim - psychic abilities (of any race) are superior to Force abilities
blood reaper wrote:Never use the Death Star as an example, it was destroyed by around 20 fighters at peak efficiency, it could not pierce the shields of certain craft, it's out gunned by most craft, Orks would infest it, Imperium would crush it, Eldar disable it and all the other races are fully capable of defeating it.
I recall one of the Hive Fleets eating a moon-sized station whole
Oh god, I almost died laughing when I thought what would happen if the Galactic Republic or the Federation from Star Trek tried to reason or try peace talks with the Orks!
So, in the news today we morn the death of Senator Amidala ( Sp ), after she got her head impaled on a so called "dis ere' pointy stick" while trying to negotiate peace with Warboss Gahz can't spell the rest of his name.
Hehe, I love imagining the Orks VS any other universe.
Tadashi wrote:Are you kidding? Warp storms would be popping up all over the place as the gods laugh like hell in the warp.
Well played!
"Da boyz will never believe dis, a small little humie girl comes walkin' up to me from er' right fancy chrome Cruiser, which I didn't blow up because I thought'd make a right nice throne for when I takes over this ere' little mess, so she says all this gak about "peace" and Im thinkin' oh dis wont be no fun, the humie's in da other galaxy are far more fighty' and fun." "So's I put er' head on me pointy stick, NOT LIKE THAT YEH GITZ!, and all da Humies just got all sad, bunch of grots they are."
My sides hurt...from trying to contain the laughter. I'm guessing the other galaxy is 40k, since Humans there love to fight almost as much as the Orks...the warp storms are getting worse as the gods keep laughing.
Tadashi wrote:My sides hurt...from trying to contain the laughter. I'm guessing the other galaxy is 40k, since Humans there love to fight almost as much as the Orks...the warp storms are getting worse as the gods keep laughing.
Yes, they would be, as the Warboss I pictured in my mind being Ghaz. I love comedic value of the Orks, they bring a lot of humor into a very dark universe.
This being that the Humans in Warhammer 40k love to fight, and kill. And put up a right good fight for da boyz and always have lots of bitz and loot.
The pansy weepy Humans from the other galaxys.......not so much.
A nudder humie to kill? Dis keepz gettin better an better! Smellz ripe, dis one does. Get em red cloakz, boyz! The boss is mine! WAAAAAGGGHH!!!!!!!!!!!
Kaldor wrote:BFG estimates. The 'earth' template is around 20cm across. The Earth itself is around 24,000kms in diameter. Making 10cm in game the equivalent of around 12,000kms. I'm assuming a game turn of BFG is around one hour, although it could be much less. Cruising speed for an Imperial Cruiser is 20cm, or 24,000kms per hour. Weapons ranges are between 30 and 60cm, or 36,000 and 72,000kms, with Nova Cannon ranging up to 150cm or 180,000kms.
Calcs aren't canon; I care little for them. Official sources only, please.
Jeez, all a Thawk would have to do is open its front cargo bay, jam the Suncrusher inside it, and the fly back to base.
It wouldn't be able to in the less than ten seconds it would take for the Sun Crusher to make the sun go supernova. You're reaching.
Or just send some Marines EVA to open up the thing with chainfists. Best case scenario the thing gets to detonate a single star, before the ship itself is captured and rendered useless.
"Detonate a single star" would result in the destruction of Terra and the Mechanicum, which would cripple the entirety of the Imperium.
And your Galaxy gun? Prognosticars predict it's location and firing arc, and the Inquisition deals with it before it even has a chance to fire. Game, set and match.
Prognosticars predict and find things based upon their warp activity. The Empire does not use the warp for anything, ergo it can't be tracked by such. Not to mention, if they COULD find its exact location, it would take the imperium YEARS to reach it with their slow ass ftl travel. By the time they even got there the Galaxy Gun would have made a hyperspace jump to a different part of the galaxy years prior. Try again.
Kaldor wrote:BFG estimates. The 'earth' template is around 20cm across. The Earth itself is around 24,000kms in diameter. Making 10cm in game the equivalent of around 12,000kms. I'm assuming a game turn of BFG is around one hour, although it could be much less. Cruising speed for an Imperial Cruiser is 20cm, or 24,000kms per hour. Weapons ranges are between 30 and 60cm, or 36,000 and 72,000kms, with Nova Cannon ranging up to 150cm or 180,000kms.
Calcs aren't canon; I care little for them.
Jeez, all a Thawk would have to do is open its front cargo bay, jam the Suncrusher inside it, and the fly back to base.
It wouldn't be able to in the less than ten seconds it would take for the Sun Crusher to make the sun go supernova. You're reaching.
Or just send some Marines EVA to open up the thing with chainfists. Best case scenario the thing gets to detonate a single star, before the ship itself is captured and rendered useless.
"Detonate a single star" would result in the destruction of Terra and the Mechanicum, which would cripple the entirety of the Imperium.
And your Galaxy gun? Prognosticars predict it's location and firing arc, and the Inquisition deals with it before it even has a chance to fire. Game, set and match.
Prognosticars predict and find things based upon their warp activity. The Empire uses none. Try again.
And detonating a retribution class Battleship would send everything in the enter Sector plunging into the warp.
Literally, for every ship the Empire kills they just have a bigger and bigger problem on their hands.
No to mention how on Earth you would get even the smallest craft anywhere near Holy Terra with out authorization?
The warp reacts to living things. So prognosticars can still find your Galaxy Gun. And the moment the Sun Crusher enters the Terran solar system, the pilot's dead, brain fried by a psychic lance, courtesy of His Majesty, the Emperor.
"Good work, Emperor." - Tzeentch
"Thanks. Now we can get back to the Great Game." - Emperor
"Just as Planned." - Tzeentch
"CAN WE JUST GET BACK TO THE GREAT GAME!" - Khorne
Tadashi wrote:The warp reacts to living things. So prognosticars can still find your Galaxy Gun. And the moment the Sun Crusher enters the Terran solar system, the pilot's dead, brain fried by a psychic lance, courtesy of His Majesty, the Emperor.
"Good work, Emperor." - Tzeentch
"Thanks. Now we can get back to the Great Game." - Emperor
"Just as Planned." - Tzeentch
"CAN WE JUST GET BACK TO THE GREAT GAME!" - Khorne
I don't get how people think you can just bring a fleet right near Holy Terra with out having the very heavens come crashing down on you as the Imperium did everything it could to wipe you from exsistance.
Alexzandvar wrote:
And detonating a retribution class Battleship would send everything in the enter Sector plunging into the warp.
That's nice. Good thing a Retribution class battleship can be destroyed from the other side of the galaxy.
Literally, for every ship the Empire kills they just have a bigger and bigger problem on their hands.
And with Terra and Mars destroyed the Imperium would cave in on itself. The Empire wouldn't need to destroy any ships.
No to mention how on Earth you would get even the smallest craft anywhere near Holy Terra with out authorization?
Are you really going to make me repeat myself? What part of "The Galaxy Gun can blow up planets that are on the other side of the galaxy" is so hard to understand? The range of its beam is literally "from one side of the galaxy to the other". The Galaxy Gun doesn't have to be anywhere near Terra. It can be ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY FROM TERRA, and blow it up with a push of a button. The Sun Crusher, MAKES SUNS GO SUPERNOVA. It doesn't have to be anywhere NEAR Terra. Pop out of hyperspace a thousand miles from the sun, press a button, and boom the sun goes supernova. Five seconds; no where near Terra. I don't understand why I need to repeat these things.
As for Tadashi's tripe about the Grey Knights. Here's the quote about the Prognosticar's abilities.
"As they are sensitive to the fluctuations to the Warp which allows them to detect the psychic tremors that are inherent in daemonic incursions into realspace. Thus, a Prognosticar is capable of determining the location and severity of such an event."
Prognosticars are used to track DEMONS. A "daemonic incursion" is referring to when a daemon or daemons enter real space from the warp. THAT'S what they are able to pick up, hence the Grey Knights specialization in hunting daemons. THe prognosticars don't just sense "everything in the galaxy" by feeling it in the warp.
Alexzandvar wrote:
And detonating a retribution class Battleship would send everything in the enter Sector plunging into the warp.
That's nice. Good thing a Retribution class battleship can be destroyed from the other side of the galaxy.
Literally, for every ship the Empire kills they just have a bigger and bigger problem on their hands.
And with Terra and Mars destroyed the Imperium would cave in on itself. The Empire wouldn't need to destroy any ships.
No to mention how on Earth you would get even the smallest craft anywhere near Holy Terra with out authorization?
Are you really going to make me repeat myself? What part of "The Galaxy Gun can blow up planets that are on the other side of the galaxy" is so hard to understand? The range of its beam is literally "from one side of the galaxy to the other". The Galaxy Gun doesn't have to be anywhere near Terra. It can be ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY FROM TERRA, and blow it up with a push of a button. The Sun Crusher, MAKES SUNS GO SUPERNOVA. It doesn't have to be anywhere NEAR Terra. Pop out of hyperspace a thousand miles from the sun, press a button, and boom the sun goes supernova. Five seconds; no where near Terra. I don't understand why I need to repeat these things.
As for Tadashi's tripe about the Grey Knights. Here's the quote about the Prognosticar's abilities.
"As they are sensitive to the fluctuations to the Warp which allows them to detect the psychic tremors that are inherent in daemonic incursions into realspace. Thus, a Prognosticar is capable of determining the location and severity of such an event."
Prognosticars are used to track DEMONS. A "daemonic incursion" is referring to when a daemon or daemons enter real space from the warp. THAT'S what they are able to pick up, hence the Grey Knights specialization in hunting daemons. THe prognosticars don't just sense "everything in the galaxy" by feeling it in the warp.
Hey mate your actually wrong. They may produce the stars. But the pilot of the sun crusher would die instantly from an unknown anamoly called the entire armada of segmuntum solaris and there was only one that was destroyed. You have ignored the posts of others. Please read information given. Death stars are horrible. And if you try and destroy the terran system that is next to impossible.
Asherian Command wrote: Hey mate your actually wrong. They may produce the stars. But the pilot of the sun crusher would die instantly from an unknown anamoly called the entire armada of segmuntum solaris
I wasn't aware that the "entire Segmentum Armada" chills out next to the sun. Lol. You're funny.
You have ignored the posts of others.
I ignored them because they were made by people who don't know anything about Star Wars.
And if you try and destroy the terran system that is next to impossible.
Explain how the Imperium would prevent the Galaxy Gun would destroy Terra or get out my face, man. Hard to believe you'd tell me not to ignore other peoples posts while in the same breath you don't respond to anything in my post. C'mon, man.
Blax you know when you argue for sw on a 40k forums your fighting a 90 degree battle and might as well give up. But for that thing about sun whatever the emporor could just have it detonate inside the suncrusher and the Q would be crushed by the gods of 40k oh and another thing about the suncrusher if you let the necrons know where you are they can blow up your entire system also with their even more advanced weaponry ot just outright blow up all of starwars without the help of gods.
Asherian Command wrote: Hey mate your actually wrong. They may produce the stars. But the pilot of the sun crusher would die instantly from an unknown anamoly called the entire armada of segmuntum solaris
I wasn't aware that the "entire Segmentum Armada" chills out next to the sun. Lol. You're funny.
You have ignored the posts of others.
I ignored them because they were made by people who don't know anything about Star Wars.
And if you try and destroy the terran system that is next to impossible.
Explain how the Imperium would prevent the Galaxy Gun would destroy Terra or get out my face, man. Hard to believe you'd tell me not to ignore other peoples posts while in the same breath you don't respond to anything in my post. C'mon, man.
Sorry but I am responding to things that I actually can debate. My idea is that the starwars univeres's sun crusher is already destroyed. The galaxy gun would get pysker pentrated and alpha pyskers unleashed destroying the gun and ending this weapon's life. Btw I played Starwars video games and rouge leader and they were destroyed by ion cannons which is the equalvent of a plasma cannon. Which is utterly useless against an Imperial Armada. The cobra fighters are released in their hundreds (Source BFG) where they slaughter entire captial ships and make quick work of the star destroyers and the rebel forces. Then the ground battle is immedately lost. The gaxaly cannon in ruins as the planet killer immedately one shot kills it. The black stone fortresses destroy the entire corusant and the life eater virus unleashed on the Storm Troopers eating through their armor and decimating the forces of the Empire before they could even launch an attack. The necrons unleash 2 world engines destroying hundreds of thousands. The Tyranids nom nom the fleets and the Eldar annoy the crap out of the super star destroyers and predicting their movements. And Papa nurgle hugs his new embracement of nurgle storm troopers and dark troopers as they fall to disease. The star cannon takes time to power up and it was stopped by a jedi if I am not mistaken. BTW this is just persuming that the orks attacked first. Which would leave a looted super star destroyer and a looted death star XD
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Sierk wrote:Blax you know when you argue for sw on a 40k forums your fighting a 90 degree battle and might as well give up. But for that thing about sun whatever the emporor could just have it detonate inside the suncrusher and the Q would be crushed by the gods of 40k oh and another thing about the suncrusher if you let the necrons know where you are they can blow up your entire system also with their even more advanced weaponry ot just outright blow up all of starwars without the help of gods.
actually the Q would win, We have already debated that 40k loses against the Q. But wins against everything else in Star Trek.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:In that case lets use the star wars rules for a table top war game... Oh wait. There isnt one! Wh40k wins by defalt. No contrst. Thank you Andrew1975.
And no in the game guardsmen dont drop like flies. Jeez man, again that was early fluff. Back when marines where also cops. And t3. Now the Imperial Guard is one of the best armies, and if we go by the current game as you suggest, the Guard is an elite mechinized army, capable of wiping out all that stand before them. So again if we use your view that we use game play, the clones are wiped out by a barrage of missiles, as gunships drop elite troops off, massacuring the survivers, then a wall of chimeras wipe out the rest. Which isnt that different from the fluff...
There was one, you may not be old enough to remember, but there was one.
Have you read 40k fluff? The Books? Dan Abnett? Ciaphas cain? Hell even in the Game Space Marine just a couple of them hold an entire gate against orks. I'm sorry mate but Stormtroopers = Space Marines is just insane you can't compare a Super Human Soldier to a guy that is cannon fodder. We have discussed this to death.
Have you read the fluff. I mean it's all so subjective. I've read books where Marines are killed by guardsmen.....in HTH! If you read IG books they are the best, if you read marine books they are gods. If you read eldar books they cut them both down like nothing. It's all just pandering to the reader.
Yes Guard can be a good army....A guardsman can never be more then a sacrifice.
Tadashi wrote:Let's stick to Star Wars/Star Trek vs. 40k.
I don't want to compare 40k to Star Wars since the Tau are the only ones Star Trek is capable of handling.
Q, meet this guy:
We're all in power armor and it is beautiful.
No, Mr. Borg and friends, We expect you to die.
*sigh* What part of OMNIPOTENT do you not get? Winning against beings that powerful doesn't happen unless you have some of them on your side.
And the gods of 40k can't alter reality? The Emperor, the Chaos Powers, and the old Eldar Gods do that on a regular basis, popping warp storms and twisting the fabric of reality apart and overlapping it with the insanity of the warp. And the C'tan have been described as omnipotent as well.
The C'tan were defeated by their own slaves. The Q travel through time on numerous occations, turn people into amoebae just because and teleports a Borg Cube from across the galaxy. They're LITERALLY omnipotent, bar being able to harm eachother. You can't win against beings that transcend time and space. If the C'tan were on that level of power, why would they EVER fall to their slaves in the first place. Likewise, if the Emperor was that powerful, why do the Chaos Gods exist at all?
Again, OMNIPOTENT. Per definition impossible to beat.
Ever heard of the Great Game? The gods don't use their full power since they're not participants in the galactic wars and crises, just onlookers who reward whom they see fit. Hell, even the Emperor probably has been sitting on the same table and playing the Game since the HH, even if His body stays locked up on the Throne ("I'm retired." - the Emperor).
You're missing the point entirely.
The fact that the Chaos Gods can be distracted and divert their power means they are not omnipotent. If they were, they could play the Great Game and still be capable of being unbeatable in real space. The fact that they can lose battles and wars is an indicator that they're not omnipotent. A Q, however, could erase the Warp and the Imperium and even the whole galaxy from existence by clicking its fingers.
BlaxicanX wrote:Explain how the Imperium would prevent the Galaxy Gun would destroy Terra or get out my face, man.
lol!
Who cares? You're clutching at straws, son. Lets simply say that the Emperor reacts to the incoming projectile by creating a warp rift for it to fly into.
Now, if we're done with dick-measuring and super-weapons, can we get back to comparing troops and ships of the line?
Alexzandvar wrote:
And detonating a retribution class Battleship would send everything in the enter Sector plunging into the warp.
That's nice. Good thing a Retribution class battleship can be destroyed from the other side of the galaxy.
Literally, for every ship the Empire kills they just have a bigger and bigger problem on their hands.
And with Terra and Mars destroyed the Imperium would cave in on itself. The Empire wouldn't need to destroy any ships.
No to mention how on Earth you would get even the smallest craft anywhere near Holy Terra with out authorization?
Are you really going to make me repeat myself? What part of "The Galaxy Gun can blow up planets that are on the other side of the galaxy" is so hard to understand? The range of its beam is literally "from one side of the galaxy to the other". The Galaxy Gun doesn't have to be anywhere near Terra. It can be ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GALAXY FROM TERRA, and blow it up with a push of a button. The Sun Crusher, MAKES SUNS GO SUPERNOVA. It doesn't have to be anywhere NEAR Terra. Pop out of hyperspace a thousand miles from the sun, press a button, and boom the sun goes supernova. Five seconds; no where near Terra. I don't understand why I need to repeat these things.
As for Tadashi's tripe about the Grey Knights. Here's the quote about the Prognosticar's abilities.
"As they are sensitive to the fluctuations to the Warp which allows them to detect the psychic tremors that are inherent in daemonic incursions into realspace. Thus, a Prognosticar is capable of determining the location and severity of such an event."
Prognosticars are used to track DEMONS. A "daemonic incursion" is referring to when a daemon or daemons enter real space from the warp. THAT'S what they are able to pick up, hence the Grey Knights specialization in hunting daemons. THe prognosticars don't just sense "everything in the galaxy" by feeling it in the warp.
The Emperor can still crush the pilot's mind the moment he arrives. Then the Sun Crusher gets swallowed up by a warp portal opened by the other gods. And even if Prognosticars can't predict the Galaxy Gun, Librarians, Sorcerers, and Farseers can. Better yet, the gods can just unleash a warp storm at it's position.
"Good Morning, crew of the Galaxy Gun.
This is the Circles of Slaanesh public broadcasting system.
We hope you enjoy your eternal relaxation here, and thank you for never leaving.
Good Day."
BlaxicanX wrote:Explain how the Imperium would prevent the Galaxy Gun would destroy Terra or get out my face, man.
lol!
Who cares? You're clutching at straws, son. Lets simply say that the Emperor reacts to the incoming projectile by creating a warp rift for it to fly into.
Now, if we're done with dick-measuring and super-weapons, can we get back to comparing troops and ships of the line?
Agreed. The funny thing is Tzeench wouldn't allow that either and make an exit rift right next to the Galaxy gun.
Still means 40k ships are larger than SW and ST ships. As for the Death Star, if we approach along the blind side, we can enough cyclonic torpedoes into it to blow it apart.
Considering the Executor is 17km long, I would say it would be a good fight.
Once you get the Eclipse-class Super Star Destroyer, and the Sovereign-class Super Star Destroyer involved in the discussion, then 40k does not stand a chance.
In fact if you add in the emperor than nothing could stand in the way of them.
How was the Eclipse was destroyed you ask? "It was destroyed when the Force storm Palpatine sent to destroy Luke Skywalker turned on Palaptine himself. The storm consumed Palpatine and eradicated the Eclipse."
The emperor used the force to try and kill luke, and instead eradicated the Eclipse, which is bigger than a 40K Retribution Class Battleship. no reason he could not do the same to everything else.
The God-Emperor rises and unleashes a warp storm on an entire sector. Where are your Force Storms now?
An it doesn't matter how big a star destroyer is. Our lances and nova cannons can pound you long before you get in range. Better yet, once you close, we say "The Emperor Protects" and blow everything to hell by detonating our warp drives.
DeathReaper wrote:Considering the Executor is 17km long, I would say it would be a good fight.
Once you get the Eclipse-class Super Star Destroyer, and the Sovereign-class Super Star Destroyer involved in the discussion, then 40k does not stand a chance.
In fact if you add in the emperor than nothing could stand in the way of them.
How was the Eclipse was destroyed you ask? "It was destroyed when the Force storm Palpatine sent to destroy Luke Skywalker turned on Palaptine himself. The storm consumed Palpatine and eradicated the Eclipse."
The emperor used the force to try and kill luke, and instead eradicated the Eclipse, which is bigger than a 40K Retribution Class Battleship. no reason he could not do the same to everything else.
good luck if they are pyschicly warded which the star wars ships are not. Plus Gellar shields protect against the warp. So two shields, Ceramite, and the fact that they also have weapons that sometimes accidentally pierce through planets....
Tadashi wrote:The God-Emperor rises and unleashes a warp storm on an entire sector. Where are your Force Storms now?
Because that's what he's done to stop the Tyranids, right? And he did it to the Orks during the great Crusade and at Armageddon? Did I miss the memo where he's no longer a corpse incapable of interacting with things outside the Warp on any decent scale?
Tadashi wrote:The God-Emperor rises and unleashes a warp storm on an entire sector. Where are your Force Storms now?
Because that's what he's done to stop the Tyranids, right? And he did it to the Orks during the great Crusade and at Armageddon? Did I miss the memo where he's no longer a corpse incapable of interacting with things outside the Warp on any decent scale?
IF they can include weapons that have already been destroyed, killed, and destroyed, this also includes the emperor palpatien who was killed. Then we can include the emperor, and you don't remember the fact that he destroyed an entire ship filled with daemons who were the most powerful in existance? Just with a wink? That is .99% of his power. He sent horus's body into oblivion. Nothing remains of him except his claw and well nothing.
Tadashi wrote:The God-Emperor rises and unleashes a warp storm on an entire sector. Where are your Force Storms now?
Because that's what he's done to stop the Tyranids, right? And he did it to the Orks during the great Crusade and at Armageddon? Did I miss the memo where he's no longer a corpse incapable of interacting with things outside the Warp on any decent scale?
If you want to include destroyed superweapons and dead villains, then we can involve the Emperor before He was interred in the Throne, and maybe after He returns.
Umm yeah if the emporor was almost killed while the deathstar was killed and so was those star thingies thanwouldnt the emporor be able to be regenerated if you guys get bring ships back to life? I mean really some of your arguments arent very good like using the fact that 40k only fights as good as they do on the table, i mean really.
Does anyone else picture the Great Game as a poker match?
So it doesnt matter if an super star destroyer is bigger. It fights at 100s of kms. Imperial fights at 10000s of kms. Those turbolaser have no targets, while the lances and nova cannons wreak shop on the Empire fleet.
Can anyone tell me the fighting strenght of the Empires Amry. I know stormtroopers are rare, but dont they have generic Imperial Infantry, im sure i read about them in some of the books.
Lol now im getting confused when people say "empires army" and such so it be much easier just to refer to 40k and sw. Just a suggestion for easier flow.
Tadashi wrote:The God-Emperor rises and unleashes a warp storm on an entire sector. Where are your Force Storms now?
Because that's what he's done to stop the Tyranids, right? And he did it to the Orks during the great Crusade and at Armageddon? Did I miss the memo where he's no longer a corpse incapable of interacting with things outside the Warp on any decent scale?
If you want to include destroyed superweapons and dead villains, then we can involve the Emperor before He was interred in the Throne, and maybe after He returns.
Okay, good point. I've only half read a lot of this and I thought we were still on the "current IoM versus Federation/Republic" discussion. That said, the difference is that weapons can be rebuilt. A dead man cannot be revived (easily, anyway. I'm not including any of the flimsy theories regarding his resurrection).
Sierk wrote:Umm yeah if the emporor was almost killed while the deathstar was killed and so was those star thingies thanwouldnt the emporor be able to be regenerated if you guys get bring ships back to life? I mean really some of your arguments arent very good like using the fact that 40k only fights as good as they do on the table, i mean really.
And they say we are ignoring them. We aren't We have considered it but they ignore our facts!
ObliviousBlueCaboose Awesome name! wrote: Does anyone else picture the Great Game as a poker match?
So it doesnt matter if an super star destroyer is bigger. It fights at 100s of kms. Imperial fights at 10000s of kms. Those turbolaser have no targets, while the lances and nova cannons wreak shop on the Empire fleet.
Can anyone tell me the fighting strenght of the Empires Amry. I know stormtroopers are rare, but dont they have generic Imperial Infantry, im sure i read about them in some of the books.
The Empire army is comparable to 500 regiments. The Imperium's Forces if all pulled together.... Too high too count.... Lets also include Space marines, Adeptus Custodes, Grey Knights, Death Watch, every single titan legion, all come out of nowhere lightning fast and kick star wars and it's nerdy arse. This is the Ultimate Showdown. (couldn't resist!) Storm troopers in the imperium are rare. but veteran Guardsmen aren't. Storm Troopers in the Empire are alot but they aren't as well trained as the Imperium which is constantly at war. Lets not forget that the Imperium's tanks range from leman russes (Which are extremely common) to baneblades and shadow swords.
Tadashi wrote:The God-Emperor rises and unleashes a warp storm on an entire sector. Where are your Force Storms now?
Because that's what he's done to stop the Tyranids, right? And he did it to the Orks during the great Crusade and at Armageddon? Did I miss the memo where he's no longer a corpse incapable of interacting with things outside the Warp on any decent scale?
If you want to include destroyed superweapons and dead villains, then we can involve the Emperor before He was interred in the Throne, and maybe after He returns.
Okay, good point. I've only half read a lot of this and I thought we were still on the "current IoM versus Federation/Republic" discussion. That said, the difference is that weapons can be rebuilt. A dead man cannot be revived (easily, anyway. I'm not including any of the flimsy theories regarding his resurrection).
actually they can't as the places they were designed were also destroyed (Source wookiepedia)
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DeathReaper wrote:They have shields, that is enough warp protection.
as kal says though lets get back to comparing troops and ships of the line.
The 40k ships can not match the Eclipse-class and the Sovereign-class ships of SW.
Here is an image showing how big the Sovereign-class is, remember the 40k Battleships are about 15km long, just smaller than the super star destroyer.
Spoiler:
and the Eclipse-class
Spoiler:
and finally the Imperium-Class Ultra Star Destroyer (Luckily this one was never actually produced).
Spoiler:
The first two were built, and existed, they would give the 40k ships cause to worry if they were ever to meet.
Eclipse meet world engine. World Engine Meet Eclipse.
umm yeah and fi those did exist the way they would be created would also get wiped by the imperiums and they would be boarded by space marines or orks or whatever and used against sw.
Their shields are meant to withstand energy from the material universe. Not the immaterial energies generated from emotions,dreams, nightmares, souls that make up the warp. Eclipse-class, meet the Blackstone Fortress.
Dang it! But look at it this way. The Imperium just sending boarding parties. Good luck trying to destroy a space hulk and when they go exploring.. Hundreds of genestealers appear on the eclipse making a new space hulk.
How do you know they protect against psykers? 40k ships are fdesigned against psykers while with wars the only thing they come close too compared to psykers are jedi or sith and they arent the most common and the star wars sheilds dont even protect against the force.
DeathReaper wrote:They have shields, that is enough warp protection.
as kal says though lets get back to comparing troops and ships of the line.
The 40k ships can not match the Eclipse-class and the Sovereign-class ships of SW.
Here is an image showing how big the Sovereign-class is, remember the 40k Battleships are about 15km long, just smaller than the super star destroyer.
Spoiler:
and the Eclipse-class
Spoiler:
and finally the Imperium-Class Ultra Star Destroyer (Luckily this one was never actually produced).
Spoiler:
The first two were built, and existed, they would give the 40k ships cause to worry if they were ever to meet.
If they ever get in range. Again SW fight at 100s of km. IoM fights at 10000s of km. It would be the Batyle of Agincourt all over... IN SPACE. The slower SW ships slowly advance to weapons range all the while getting pulverized by lances and nova cannons. Again size doesnt matter if you die before you can strike back.
Sierk wrote:How do you know they protect against psykers?
Fluff states that pyskers have a hard time because of the gellar shields. IT does the same job in pyschic storms in the Great Ocean and in warp storms it protects the ship. Thus making it extremely difficult for the emperor to do jack squat against the entire imperial armada. You can use everything you got. WE get the entire imperium. Every chapter, Every space marine legion everything. You can use all of your toys, we can use all of ours. IF you allow that. IT would be a horrible idea.
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Andrew1975 wrote:That's why range is so great in battle fleet Gothic is it?
Ever read the Dark Hersey books or the Books about the imperial navy battles? It is over entire systems sometimes.
Umm yeah im for the impirium and i dont really understand where your coming from asherian. Imperial armada, star wars right? If so how would the fluff say that star wars have defences in 40k. srry i just ddont understand yourt post. Your saying that gellar sheilds protect against psychic storsms and since psykers are 40k im assuming thats a 40k sheild still effectively saying that we have psyker defences and you dont.
Sierk wrote:Umm yeah im for the impirium and i dont really understand where your coming from asherian. Imperial armada, star wars right? If so how would the fluff say that star wars have defences in 40k. srry i just ddont understand yourt post. Your saying that gellar sheilds protect against psychic storsms and since psykers are 40k im assuming thats a 40k sheild still effectively saying that we have psyker defences and you dont.
Wow I really hate how the names are similar. I am talking about SW Empire has no chance. But IOM wins because they have defenses. Also Sierk I struggled reading your post. Could you please re edit it?
Source?
If it is BFG then your ranges are off, see my earth to Battleship example.
If you are disregarding established fluff then we cannot count anything you have mentioned. You cannot discount stuff. especially if the earth is 6,371 miles. The world is oversize by a tad. So that is still 10,000 kms wow. congrats the SW is still at a loss.
Asherian Command wrote:If you are disregarding established fluff then we cannot count anything you have mentioned. You cannot discount stuff. especially if the earth is 6,371 miles. The world is oversize by a tad. So that is still 10,000 kms wow. congrats the SW is still at a loss.
I am not "disregarding established fluff" I just asked where you got that info from as Kal's calculations are not correct.
A Retribution Class Battleship is about 12 centimetres long in BFG.
In reality its about 15km long. If This is to be trusted.
Kaldor wrote:The 'earth' template is around 20cm across.
Which puts the earth at about 25km, when it should be 1000 times bigger than that.
So the scale of BFG is off, and the ships can not move that fast based on Kal's calculations.
Thus the BFG scale comparison is off. I have given pics of the star destroyers sizes, but have seen nothing to suggest that the 40k ranges are "10000 or more" as you claim.
A Retribution Class Battleship is about 12 centimetres long
In reality its about 15km long. If This is to be trusted.
Kaldor wrote:The 'earth' template is around 20cm across.
Which puts the earth at about 25km, when it should be 1000 times bigger than that.
So the scale of BFG is off, and the ships can not move that fast based on Kal's calculations.
The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.
At the end of the day, whichever way you slice it SW ships are painfully slow. We have sports cars today that are faster. IoM ships are much faster, and obviously engage at much longer ranges.
The only source i have on hand is my guants ghosts the saint. Where an IoM battlegroup detects an chaos battle groupbat 9 au or 1 346 382 000 000 miles. And imediedtly started to move to engage. Battle happend within 40 minutes.
This thread, espically the posts by BlaxicanX and DeathReaper, has made me start to dislike Star Wars. The impotent nerd rage is palpable. i wish to go back to the days when all i thought of Star Wars was blasters, hot chicks, wookies and The Force.
Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.
If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.
lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.
in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.
Kaldor wrote:At the end of the day, whichever way you slice it SW ships are painfully slow. We have sports cars today that are faster. IoM ships are much faster, and obviously engage at much longer ranges.
and you have some evidence, other than the BFG scale errors you posted earlier, to support this?
greektlake wrote:The impotent nerd rage is palpable.
Has anyone read Hellforged? The part where a necron ship rips out the core of a star and consumes it? That has to be larger than a World Engine to pull off that stunt. Enjoy battling that SW.
Anyway back to the Imperium vs SW.... If you go by current fluff (so no suncrushers or eclipses for SW) for both, SW doesn't stand a chance. the IoM may have slower travel but holds superiority in every other way. Just being able to trump another force one way does not ensure victory.
Imperial Ratlings..halflings.....err hobbits with guns...
Now I dont care one way or the other, I loved starwars as a kid, but then lucas had to meddle in his great creation, so I may have a bit more compasion for 40k now.
Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.
If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.
lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.
in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.
There are two scales. The models, and everything else. All weapon ranges, template sizes, movement rates, etc are in the same scale. The models are in another scale.
Kaldor wrote:There are two scales. The models, and everything else. All weapon ranges, template sizes, movement rates, etc are in the same scale. The models are in another scale.
Umm yea, I will just leave this here:
Kaldor wrote:BFG estimates. The 'earth' template is around 20cm across. The Earth itself is around 24,000kms in diameter. Making 10cm in game the equivalent of around 12,000kms. I'm assuming a game turn of BFG is around one hour, although it could be much less. Cruising speed for an Imperial Cruiser is 20cm,
The movement rates are off, your calculations are incorrect.
Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.
If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.
lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.
in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.
There are two scales. The models, and everything else. All weapon ranges, template sizes, movement rates, etc are in the same scale. The models are in another scale.
This. Measurements aren't taken from the models, but from the base. The base, in turn, represents the "immediate" area around the ship.
As for the Q, pretending that the various deities of 40k are omnipotent when thru clearly aren't renders any attempted argument null and void.
You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.
Luke_Prowler wrote:You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.
Yes, but the argument was that nothing in the ST universe could beat the IoM, which is blatantly untrue.
I dont think the SW stormtrooper is the equivilent of a Space Marine. If anything the SW stormtrooper is equal to ani Imperia Guardsmen. If that was your point, then sorry to repeat it. If your suggesting that SW could defeat the IoM on the ground. Then no. Guard would walk all over the SW troops. Esp since most of their forces are like the Imerial Army.
How many times do we have to say that no matter how many times we do counting, comparing etc... Imperium will always win over Empire simply because of sheer number of troops, tanks and everything else it has at it's disposal.
Empire most elite troops lost to the bunch of teddy bears. That's like Space Marines Terminators lose from a bunch of Gretchins with sticks. And Empire fall in the end, to the vastly outnumbered Alliance fleet that destroyed their SSD and Death Star in single battle.
Now, if Star Wars fanboys won't admit that anything from Star Wars can loose that's another thing.
Luke_Prowler wrote:You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.
Yes, but the argument was that nothing in the ST universe could beat the IoM, which is blatantly untrue.
Perhaps, but still Q and the rest of his kind prefer to distance themselves from mortals, so they actually have less influence than 40k gods.
Luke_Prowler wrote:You guy do realize that Q, while he is omnipotent, is fickle and uncareing? He has never actually helped the federation unless it was a by-product of his own amusement. If it would be more entertaining watching the two armies trading blows then he would gladly sit and watch with popcorn in hand.
Yes, but the argument was that nothing in the ST universe could beat the IoM, which is blatantly untrue.
Perhaps, but still Q and the rest of his kind prefer to distance themselves from mortals, so they actually have less influence than 40k gods.
Not in the theoretical situation that we're discussing. If the Q for some reason were convinced to fight the IoM, the fight would be over before it began.
Not really. The only that can distract (and unite) the gods from the Great Game is something that disrupts the game. I doubt if Q can take on all the collective sum of all the hate, emotions, and belief of every single living thing in 40k. It'll be like the C'tan, blown to bits by the power if the material universe. Only this time, the power of the immaterial universe blows the Q apart. And when I mean gods, all gods, including non-Chaos Powers, and even dead ones, like the old Eldar gods.
Tadashi wrote:Not really. The only that can distract (and unite) the gods from the Great Game is something that disrupts the game. I doubt if Q can take on all the collective sum of all the hate, emotions, and belief of every single living thing in 40k. It'll be like the C'tan, blown to bits by the power if the material universe. Only this time, the power of the immaterial universe blows the Q apart. And when I mean gods, all gods, including non-Chaos Powers, and even dead ones, like the old Eldar gods.
OMNIPOTENT. From latin, "omnipotens", "almighty, "omnis" meaning "all", and "potens" meaning powerful. What part of the word is unclear? What's your source for this "great game", and why wouldn't something that is omnipotent be able to take on some random powerful beings?
I agree With almightywalrus having watched to episode 10 times to make sense of it. The Q will win. Omnipotent is like now adays christian god. Consider the emperor of man give him the ability to create things at will like entire races and sentient life in a millisecond, destroy entire gaxalies at will. That is what the Q can do. There is nothing the 40k, Starwars universe that can compare. Sorry but the Chaos gods are not able to do so they have to split themselves apart to make things.
Now the Federation, or any other race that is in star trek yes 40k would own. But with The Q involved, star trek wins.
I've played warhammer 40k for 10 years and I still say that they lose to maybe a few universes only because the chances of them actually beating an entire god like force (Supreme commander, and the other games where entire forces are built in like 30 seconds.) They lose.
I still find that incredibly biased. Both would be at a standstill and just look at each other angrily.
Q can travel through time at will. The Chaos Gods can't. The End.
The warp is not effected by time in the same way the material world is. There are plenty of stories of ships going through the warp and ending up years before whatever they were going to happened. Not to mention that one time a Warboss wnet back in time and killed his past self to get another copy of his favorite shoota.
Either way, we shouldn't allow omnipotent entities into a vs debate otherwise it desolves into "yah-huh" "nuh-uh"
I still find that incredibly biased. Both would be at a standstill and just look at each other angrily.
Q can travel through time at will. The Chaos Gods can't. The End.
The warp is not effected by time in the same way the material world is. There are plenty of stories of ships going through the warp and ending up years before whatever they were going to happened.
Blanx, you do realise that chances are, to actually get close enough to fire the Sun Crushers weapon it would have to close to within at LEAST 889,000,000 miles. without being vapourised by the largest defensive structure in the IOM. we are talking defences FROM SATURN!!!!!!! Lets assume that we throw both universe's resources into a single large battle. The IOM has a far larger Navy than the Galactic empire. To quote Cpl. Locklear from Halo:First Strike, A single IOM salvoe would produce "Enough firepower to walk to the LZ"
When can laucnch a wall of Lance/torpedo/fighters/plasma/Phsycic Doom or a battle ship that can consume an entire Hive fleet in the explosion just by detonating its engines then I'll think about conceding a victory in space.
When your precious Imperial stormtroopers meet hundereds of billions of Imperial Guardsmen, One of 2 thiongs will happen.
1. The Storm troopers will lose faith and fall back in complete disarray and be crushed under the boots of said guardsmen.
2.The storm troopers willopen fire, and simply run out of ammo and again either be scythed down by a lot of las-fire or again crushed
Thats without SM's, BT's, the Inquisition, DA and such
There are two other facts about the sun crushers than the people who are branding it as the "insta-win" button against the imperium forget: One, the thing was destroyed, when it was launched into a black hole so that the Empire remnents couldn't get their hands back on it ('cause it got stolen by Han Solo in the novel it appears in). Secondly, it's a fighter class ship, meaning it'd need a fleet to support it, said fleet not nearly as invinvible. It'd be hard to blow up the solar system if the pilot got lost after his support got blown to bits and dies from starvation before getting close to the target.
Yield The damned argument already! You are Outnumbered. Outgunned. If you get to use the G.E. dead resources so do we. that means Primarchs. And The Holy God Emperor. And SM legions. As well as current SM chapters.
Hello Deathstar, Meet 8 (I believe) Blackstone fortresses. and the Imperial Navy. And the combined SM chapter Fleets. And The BT's small armada.
enjoy the last 30-40 seconds of your lives. We, on the other hand,will enjoy the fireworks...
I still don't understand why that if the the Empire has the Suncrusher the Imperium could just warp 1 ship above the Empires capital or Death Stars and detonate the Warp engines?
Also never mind the fact the Empire has no way of stopping the Imperium from using Warp travel because it's about entering another plane of exsistance rather than moving really really fast.
The warp is timeless...it doesn't matter if you can travel through time or not...the Emperor can stop time for short periods...the 40k gods would just ask "Did you do something?".
Asherian Command wrote: Sorry but I am responding to things that I actually can debate. My idea is that the starwars univeres's sun crusher is already destroyed.
The sun crusher was destroyed by its pilot willingly flying it into a black hole.
The galaxy gun would get pysker pentrated and alpha pyskers unleashed destroying the gun and ending this weapon's life.
They wouldn't be able to do this from the other side of the galaxy. They would have to find it first then get close to it, which is impossible with Imperium tech.
Btw I played Starwars video games and rouge leader and they were destroyed by ion cannons which is the equalvent of a plasma cannon.
Not sure what you're referring to.
The cobra fighters are released in their hundreds (Source BFG) where they slaughter entire captial ships and make quick work of the star destroyers and the rebel forces. Then the ground battle is immedately lost. The gaxaly cannon in ruins as the planet killer immedately one shot kills it. The black stone fortresses destroy the entire corusant and the life eater virus unleashed on the Storm Troopers eating through their armor and decimating the forces of the Empire before they could even launch an attack. The necrons unleash 2 world engines destroying hundreds of thousands. The Tyranids nom nom the fleets and the Eldar annoy the crap out of the super star destroyers and predicting their movements. And Papa nurgle hugs his new embracement of nurgle storm troopers and dark troopers as they fall to disease. The star cannon takes time to power up and it was stopped by a jedi if I am not mistaken. BTW this is just persuming that the orks attacked first. Which would leave a looted super star destroyer and a looted death star XD
What? xD
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Kaldor wrote:lol!
Who cares? You're clutching at straws, son. Lets simply say that the Emperor reacts to the incoming projectile by creating a warp rift for it to fly into.
The Emperor has never shown the ability to do that.
Now, if we're done with dick-measuring and super-weapons, can we get back to comparing troops and ships of the line?
The topic of the thread is "which group would win". I'm not going to ignore established aspects of their armies just because you're too butthurt to admit the Imperium has no answer to the Empire's superweapons, sorry. If you didn't want to discuss such things then you shouldn't have contested my first post in here to begin with.
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As for the rest of this stuff about the Emperor creating warp storms and opening black holes and shiz, he's never done any of this in the canon; so it doesn't apply here.
Blax they are accepting what you said and your bringing back machines that cant be remade so why cant we bring back what was disbanded, wounded or killed meaning a full strength emporor, more advanced machines being mass produced like space hulks and the such and the legions.
Im right dont you think?
My vote goes to the IoM due to the size of their army.
Storm troopers don't appear any more powerful than a standard guardsman while Star Wars ships seem like they would be around the level of Tau ships or Eldar. This leaves IoM with its massive resources to draw upon to defeat the empire. Remember the IoM has over a million worlds and untold billions of citizens to throw into the fight.
Tadashi wrote:The warp is timeless...it doesn't matter if you can travel through time or not...the Emperor can stop time for short periods...the 40k gods would just ask "Did you do something?".
The Q go back in time, stops the War in Heaven, Chaos never gets to exist. Thanks for playing.
I think 40k would beat star wars. However, if we want to compare science fiction universe, then I am sure there is no limit to imagination, so we can't say 40k will beat very other science fic universe out there.
I mean, you could have some science fiction author dream up a multiple galaxy spanning empire with billions of capital space ships, each one tremondous in size, with super powerful shields, guns, etc etc.
There's no end to how big a ship can get, how far a laser can shoot, and how tough a shield can get. And there are no end to the number of world destroying or even system destroying super weapons that our imagination can dream up.
At the extreme level, in one science fic series which I read, even destroying the physical form of the enemy wasn't enough because their true power was in their mind (psychic power, same thing). And their mind was so powerful that the collective minds of an entire race of what is the quivalent of gods (in terms of psychic power) was insufficient to destroy the inner council of the enemy's collective minds.
So, to beat them, they went and nurtured over a span of millions of years many generations of "psykers" from other races (because they had already reached the limit of their own psychic power).
The final apex of the union between two generation spanning male and female super psykers produced 4 women and 1 male. Together, plus all the psykers and the entire "god equivalent" race, they finally beat the "enemy" (Though they had previously already destroyed its physical form).
Just goes to show what happens when you keep on going for bigger and bigger, until you reach a point where you say physical size doesn't matter anymore! lol
BlaxicanX wrote: Now, if we're done with dick-measuring and super-weapons, can we get back to comparing troops and ships of the line?The topic of the thread is "which group would win". I'm not going to ignore established aspects of their armies just because you're too butthurt to admit the Imperium has no answer to the Empire's superweapons, sorry. If you didn't want to discuss such things then you shouldn't have contested my first post in here to begin with.
- - - - - - - -
As for the rest of this stuff about the Emperor creating warp storms and opening black holes and shiz, he's never done any of this in the canon; so it doesn't apply here.
Kaldor wrote:The models themselves are not to scale. The rulebook states that obviously battles in space are conducted at such distances that no models could ever represent it accurately, so the models themselves are abstract representions. No reason to assume the rest of the measurements are off scale though.
If the models are in different scales, the measurements will be off. Not just by a little either.
lets show you how. Using some of your numbers.
in BFG the ship can move 10cm, thats about 4 inches, which translates into 4 squares on a movement mat for D&D, which equals about 6 meters in the D&D world. Given the 1 hour per game turn that you cited, that means the BFG ships move VERY slowly, about 147 meters per day. so you see, different scales have a big impact on measurements and can throw them way off.
Kaldor wrote:At the end of the day, whichever way you slice it SW ships are painfully slow. We have sports cars today that are faster. IoM ships are much faster, and obviously engage at much longer ranges.
and you have some evidence, other than the BFG scale errors you posted earlier, to support this?
greektlake wrote:The impotent nerd rage is palpable.
What? really?
Can you cite an example of this?
how about the above post? you seem pretty flustered to me.
Sierk wrote:Blax they are accepting what you said and your bringing back machines that cant be remade so why cant we bring back what was disbanded, wounded or killed meaning a full strength emporor, more advanced machines being mass produced like space hulks and the such and the legions.
Im right dont you think?
Where did I say they couldn't? I never have.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:Death Star: Drstroyed
Death Stat II: Destroyed
Sun Crusher: Destroyed
Galaxy Gun: Destroyed
There. Using current fluff on both. These super weapons are gone and can no longer be brought up. Thank you for playing.
Now we have already determined the IoM would control space, due to superior sub light speed and long range fire power.
The IoM would also dominate ground combat. Due to the superior combat ablities of the Imperial Guard.
Hands down Star Wars loses.
The GE itself doesn't exist in current fluff. I guess we just shouldn't have this discussion at all.
And as I said before, IN THE FLUFF, the Galactic Empire doesn't even exist anymore; it surrendered and was dissolved. So if DakkaDakka's last ditch argument is "waaah waaaah those super weapons were already destroyed in star wars fluff so they shouldn't be allowed here!", then you've already lost.
I don't know why this is such a big deal. I'm man enough to admit that clones and stormtroopers would get destroyed by the Imperium. It's just... the complete other way around in space.
I hate to play the devil's advocate for the 40K as Star Wars is an interesting universe, but the problem with Star Wars is simply the expanded universe is technically fan fiction. The movies are the canon of the Star Wars Universe. All of the rulebooks and fluff snippets from all of GW publications put detail into the 40K universe. We have ships with guns that fire skyscrapers at near light speed. You have the death star that gets killed by fighters. This is sadly the truth regardless of how much you don't want it to be.
It's not "technically fan fiction" anymore then the black library and the comics are "technically fan fiction".
But, again. If the only way you can try to scrape a win for the 40K verse is by trying to pretend that these weapons don't exist, by all means. Obvious reaching is obvious. I know who you are, btw. :p
I'm not trying to pretend these weapons do not exist. I am not using any Black Library material or otherwise. I am using the rulebooks as the only canon. Imperial Guard are Meatshields and Stormtroopers can't hit anything worth gak. Simple as that. I'm not pulling a defense for 40K I'm simply using basic logic. Has George Lucas actually written any of the expanded universe stuff or has other authors stepped in to fill the gap?
And as I said before, IN THE FLUFF, the Galactic Empire doesn't even exist anymore; it surrendered and was dissolved. So if DakkaDakka's last ditch argument is "waaah waaaah those super weapons were already destroyed in star wars fluff so they shouldn't be allowed here!", then you've already lost.
I don't know why this is such a big deal. I'm man enough to admit that clones and stormtroopers would get destroyed by the Imperium. It's just... the complete other way around in space.
Ive nevet said The GE, ive kept it vauge, saying Star Wars, or the Empire, which could mean, the GE, the Imperial Remnaut , the Fel Empire, or the second Galactic Empire. So how about getting some reading comprehension skills, before you insult someone. Okay.
The IoM would win in space, hands down, no contest. The standard ship, the Cruiser is bigger then a Star Destroyer. The Battleships are even bigger. But before you start with "But Mr. Caboose, sw has XY&Z weapons. Yadayadayada." Thats cool and all, but the IoM fights at longer ranges then SW. So all their super turbolasers, and other weapons, no longer factor. What does factor is how fast they can move, and how much punishment they can take. And since IoM ships are faster in Sub light, they will stay out of range. Plus sw ships have no defense against
Psykers. None. And its argued that IoM Gellar Fields would protect against the force.
You know, mass effect fleets could most likely beat SW fleets. That longer range desides it. You want a real would example? Battleships. Once they were Kings of the sea. Now their scrap. Due to aircraft carriers could damage them, while staying well out side their range
And just in case you want proof that range can be a deciding factor in battle
British privateers vs. Spanish Armada. Privateers had the range (not to mention higher rate of fire) and thus ushered in the era of the British Empire and superiority at sea.
Again it depends, if you leave out all the supplemental books and things from both sides all you are left with that is canon is a movie vs a game. In that instance 40K losses because no one can shoot further than 50 yards, even things like basilisks big artillery can only shoot a few hundred yards. Star wars has them on range. Even the fastest flier in 40K can't clear a table in one turn making them terribly slow.
For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Sierk wrote:wasnt it already decided that tabletop measurements werent to be trusted because there out of scale?
Yes.
Says who? I saw BFG because the models were not to scale, which is still debatable because they could block line of site, so they were to scale for somethings, just not for fluff?. But 40k miniatures are to scale hence TLOS. If you want to use fluff use it. But you can't say the other guys fluff is fake. So the only cannon at that point is, the movie vs the game rules.
You know, mass effect fleets could most likely beat SW fleets. That longer range desides it. You want a real would example? Battleships. Once they were Kings of the sea. Now their scrap. Due to aircraft carriers could damage them, while staying well out side their range
/thread
Funny how you mention aircraft carrier, since the Mass Effect humans managed to kick a fair number of alien butts with their unique carriers which other race did not have.
You know, mass effect fleets could most likely beat SW fleets. That longer range desides it. You want a real would example? Battleships. Once they were Kings of the sea. Now their scrap. Due to aircraft carriers could damage them, while staying well out side their range
/thread
Funny how you mention aircraft carrier, since the Mass Effect humans managed to kick a fair number of alien butts with their unique carriers which other race did not have.
Yeah, im replaying mass effect. And so its in my head. I like star wars as i said earlier. But the IoM crub stomps sw.
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
You never actually see that though. You see the at-ats, then the snowtroopers in the base. I would have loved to see that shoot out. The most effective shooting you really see by troops in star wars (well episodes iv-vi, the only ones I will admit too, including the garbage re dos) is the boarding scene in IV. The storm troopers make pretty quick work out of an entrenched foe who I would compare to guardsmen.
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
You never actually see that though. You see the at-ats, then the snowtroopers in the base. I would have loved to see that shoot out. The most effective shooting you really see by troops in star wars (well episodes iv-vi, the only ones I will admit too, including the garbage re dos) is the boarding scene in IV. The storm troopers make pretty quick work out of an entrenched foe who I would compare to guardsmen.
Yes but what would happen if instead of 10 rebel troopers with little to no body armor you had 500 Imperial Guardsmen with flak armor and Las-guns and bolters breathing down your neck?
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
You never actually see that though. You see the at-ats, then the snowtroopers in the base. I would have loved to see that shoot out. The most effective shooting you really see by troops in star wars (well episodes iv-vi, the only ones I will admit too, including the garbage re dos) is the boarding scene in IV. The storm troopers make pretty quick work out of an entrenched foe who I would compare to guardsmen.
Yes but what would happen if instead of 10 rebel troopers with little to no body armor you had 500 Imperial Guardsmen with flak armor and Las-guns and bolters breathing down your neck?
First off guardsmen don't get bolters. They may get heavy bolters which would suck at boarding. I really see little difference from guard armor and rebel armor, catachan minis don't even wear armor, so ill count the rebels in helmets and vests as the same. Storm troopers would have the equivalent of carapace armor as a comparison.
The blockade runner that was being boarded did not hold hundereds of troops, so stuffing 500 guardsmen in there is not really an option.
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
You never actually see that though. You see the at-ats, then the snowtroopers in the base. I would have loved to see that shoot out. The most effective shooting you really see by troops in star wars (well episodes iv-vi, the only ones I will admit too, including the garbage re dos) is the boarding scene in IV. The storm troopers make pretty quick work out of an entrenched foe who I would compare to guardsmen.
Yes but what would happen if instead of 10 rebel troopers with little to no body armor you had 500 Imperial Guardsmen with flak armor and Las-guns and bolters breathing down your neck?
First off guardsmen don't get bolters. They may get heavy bolters which would suck at boarding. I really see little difference from guard armor and rebel armor, catachan minis don't even wear armor, so ill count the rebels in helmets and vests as the same. Storm troopers would have the equivalent of carapace armor as a comparison.
The blockade runner that was being boarded did not hold hundereds of troops, so stuffing 500 guardsmen in there is not really an option.
1. The Guards flak armor is not "card board" like the games or jokes would have you believe
2. Yes Guardsmen can use and get bolters, they are often for special or veteran units.
3. What I meant was you will never have just 10 Guardsmen in a Crusade going up against an equal number of enemies. The Empire just does not have the troops, they will lose due to attrition.
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
You never actually see that though. You see the at-ats, then the snowtroopers in the base. I would have loved to see that shoot out. The most effective shooting you really see by troops in star wars (well episodes iv-vi, the only ones I will admit too, including the garbage re dos) is the boarding scene in IV. The storm troopers make pretty quick work out of an entrenched foe who I would compare to guardsmen.
Yes but what would happen if instead of 10 rebel troopers with little to no body armor you had 500 Imperial Guardsmen with flak armor and Las-guns and bolters breathing down your neck?
First off guardsmen don't get bolters. They may get heavy bolters which would suck at boarding. I really see little difference from guard armor and rebel armor, catachan minis don't even wear armor, so ill count the rebels in helmets and vests as the same. Storm troopers would have the equivalent of carapace armor as a comparison.
The blockade runner that was being boarded did not hold hundereds of troops, so stuffing 500 guardsmen in there is not really an option.
1. The Guards flak armor is not "card board" like the games or jokes would have you believe
2. Yes Guardsmen can use and get bolters, they are often for special or veteran units.
3. What I meant was you will never have just 10 Guardsmen in a Crusade going up against an equal number of enemies. The Empire just does not have the troops, they will lose due to attrition.
Sorry but again, my criteria for cannon is movie and game, that's it. Keep it simple, too many argument if you include everything. No supplements, no fan fiction. Show me a mini a of a guardsman with a bolt gun that's not from 2nd ed? I've seen seargent's with bolt pistols, but no bolt guns. There is the hot shot or whatever they are calling it today....but it is still not a bolt gun. While stormtrooper accuracy is up for debate, it looks like it sucks, but Kanobi says "only storm troopers are so precise", so I'll meet in the middle and give them a bs of 3, the big difference is that starwars range is much better, where as gw has about a 50 yard average.
Again you have to understand I don't really care, I think it's funny, everybody is constantly moving goal posts here for an argument that is completely worthless.
It is the whole superman vs mightymouse argument. It's silly. I just find it amusing the lengths people will go, and the crap that they will make up.
Andrew1975 wrote:For star wars, no one but heros can hit the broadside of a barn, so most troops would all be BS 1 or 2. But they would be able to shoot across the table!
Really? The Imperials made quick work of the Hoth base with their shooting, They hit plenty of entrenched rebels.
They just suck when rolling to hit IC's like Luke and Han.
You never actually see that though. You see the at-ats, then the snowtroopers in the base. I would have loved to see that shoot out. The most effective shooting you really see by troops in star wars (well episodes iv-vi, the only ones I will admit too, including the garbage re dos) is the boarding scene in IV. The storm troopers make pretty quick work out of an entrenched foe who I would compare to guardsmen.
Yes but what would happen if instead of 10 rebel troopers with little to no body armor you had 500 Imperial Guardsmen with flak armor and Las-guns and bolters breathing down your neck?
First off guardsmen don't get bolters. They may get heavy bolters which would suck at boarding. I really see little difference from guard armor and rebel armor, catachan minis don't even wear armor, so ill count the rebels in helmets and vests as the same. Storm troopers would have the equivalent of carapace armor as a comparison.
The blockade runner that was being boarded did not hold hundereds of troops, so stuffing 500 guardsmen in there is not really an option.
1. The Guards flak armor is not "card board" like the games or jokes would have you believe
2. Yes Guardsmen can use and get bolters, they are often for special or veteran units.
3. What I meant was you will never have just 10 Guardsmen in a Crusade going up against an equal number of enemies. The Empire just does not have the troops, they will lose due to attrition.
Sorry but again, my criteria for cannon is movie and game, that's it. Keep it simple, too many argument if you include everything. No supplements, no fan fiction. Show me a mini a of a guardsman with a bolt gun that's not from 2nd ed? I've seen seargent's with bolt pistols, but no bolt guns. There is the hot shot or whatever they are calling it today....but it is still not a bolt gun. While stormtrooper accuracy is up for debate, it looks like it sucks, but Kanobi says "only storm troopers are so precise", so I'll meet in the middle and give them a bs of 3, the big difference is that starwars range is much better, where as gw has about a 50 yard average.
Again you have to understand I don't really care, I think it's funny, everybody is constantly moving goal posts here for an argument that is completely worthless.
It is the whole superman vs mightymouse argument. It's silly. I just find it amusing the lengths people will go, and the crap that they will make up.
Its not fan fiction.
Guardsmen are known to have bolters.
Fire Support Squads
Armed with Heavy Bolters or Autocannons, these squads can suppress enemy infantry and even neutralize light vehicles.
Anti-tank Support Squads
Armed with Lascannons or Missile Launchers, these squads are principally used to kill enemy armour or similar high-priority targets.
Mortar Support Squads
Armed with anti-personnel Mortars, these squads are primarily used for long-range suppression or harassing fire.
Special Weapons Squad
These squads are still typically six Guardsmen strong, but field man-portable special weapons rather than the larger crew-operated heavy weapons. Only 3 Guardsmen are allowed to carry special weapons, with the remaining three operating as ammunition carriers. The special weapons available to these squads include Meltaguns, Flamers, Grenade Launchers, Sniper Rifles or a Demolition Charge.1
Support squads are often either attached to a Command Platoon or formed up into Heavy Weapons Platoons, generating considerable massed firepower.1 Heavy Weapons Support Squads are often set up entrenched in a defensive position, or set up behind sandbags.3
Hardened Veteran Squad
A Hardened Veteran squad is an elite Imperial Guard unit made up of battle-hardened veterans of many long wars. Such veteran units tend to be low in numbers but their versatility makes them a valuable addition to any army.1-p42
As a regiment is progressively eroded through combat until only the toughest and luckiest remain, these remainders end up becoming hardened veterans, men who have survived long enough to become especially proficient at war. They have often picked up a number of unique battle skills and are far more individualistic than normal Guardsmen, given freer reign than normal Guardsmen, and provide valuable experience on the battlefield.1-p42
A squad notionally consists of between four and nine veteran Guardsmen and one Sergeant. Sergeants of these squads are often equipped with equipment typically rated 'Officer-Only', either due to being given access to such equipment in the armoury by their superiors, or having scavenged it from the battlefield and being allowed to retain it. Indeed, the weapon outfit of a veteran Guardsmen squad can vary massively.1-p42
Veterans are often acquired by Inquisitors to form part of their Inquisitorial retinue when extra power and skill are needed
Use fluff vs fluff not movie vs game. It will never end well.
Weapons
The primary weapon of the Imperial Guard is the Lasgun but Guardsmen are very versatile and can be trained in the use of many different weapons. The standard issued types are:
They are also commonly armed with Frag and Krak Grenades to aid them in dealing with unexpected threats they come across during a battle.
They don't make use of normal bolters because they are extremely hard to carry. But they do use alot more than flashlights*
By the way they are pretty damn powerful a lasgun can pierce power armor if put onto its highest setting.
Lasgun
1
Standard Cadian pattern Lasgun
The Lasgun is an energy based weapon, and is the most common and widely used type of laser weapon in the Imperium. It is standard issue for all Imperial Guard infantry and most lower-ranked officers. Lasguns are reliable, easy to maintain and produce, and are readily available on most Imperial worlds. They have longer range and higher ammunition capacity than a Laspistol (the laspistol power packs having roughly 80 shots before depletion, compared to roughly 150 shots for a lasgun)5, but are nowhere near as powerful as a Lascannon. They also lack the rapid fire quality of the Multi-laser or the Hellgun.
The lasgun uses the same basic technology and operates along the same lines as other las weapons, emitting a beam of focused light. The high amount of energy in the beam causes the immediate surface area of a target to be vaporized in a small explosion1. It is a relatively unimpressive weapon when compared to other weapons in the Warhammer 40,000 universe, but is still capable of cleanly severing limbs or piercing the power armour of a Space Marine (but only through a vulnerable spot in the armour). Most designs have iron sights mounted along the top of the weapon. It is powered by a small, rechargeable power pack located beneath the weapon, in front of the trigger guard. The pack can be recharged in many ways, including sunlight. It can also be "overcharged," a trick used by Guard veterans that causes the pack to explode, turning the weapon into a makeshift grenade. This tactic is only used in last ditch situations as it results in the destruction of the weapon. The resultant explosion, however, is powerful enough to crack open the frontal armor of a Chaos Dreadnought.3 Lasguns have several lethality settings that adjust the damage of each shot in order to conserve power (weaker settings use less energy) or disable rather than kill a target. The weapon can also be fitted with a "Hotshot" pack, providing more powerful but less numerous shots.
The lasgun features a bayonet lug, allowing the weapon to be fitted with bayonets or combat knives. The sniper variant of the lasgun, known as the long-las, is the preferred weapon of Imperial Guard sharpshooters. The barrel of the long-las is extended to bolster the weapon's accuracy. The barrel requires replacement every 20-50 shots depending on the power setting and cool down time. For this reason, the long-las is outfitted with a "slide-lock" barrel, which is easily locked and unlocked from the weapon's housing.
The standard pattern is known as the "M-Galaxy," although hundreds of thousands of variants exist; the Cadian variant differs greatly from that used by the Tallarn Desert Raiders, Tanith First and Only or Elysian Drop Troops. The M-Galaxy was first put into use in 2546789.M352.
Laser weapons emit a highly focused beam of light. The short duration high energy beam produces such a rapid temperature change on the target's surface that it vaporises in a small explosion.
Lasguns fire with a searing flash of light and the distinctive snap or crack of ionised air, each pull of the trigger firing a single shot.
Rechargeable power packs feed the discharge generator. Power packs usually possess a highly efficient liquid metal core and vary from small internal packs for lasguns and pistols, to crate sized for lascannons and larger las weapons. Most light power packs provide forty shots, compared to the lascannon packs which are good for only one shot. Las weapons can be overpowered with "Hotshot" power packs, providing more power but less shots. Hotshot packs cannot easily be recharged and the extra stress put on the barrel requires much more maintenance. Power packs can be easily recharged by exposing them to heat, or sunlight through solar converters. In an emergency a pack can be placed in a fire and quickly recharged, although this method shortens the life of the pack and can destroy it altogether.
Yet more evidence.
The Blasters in the Starwars universe use a small beam of energy. Smaller than that of the Imperial Guard Lasgun. Lasguns atomize the air around it. Blasters don't. In the books blasters are easily destroyed and do not have a full kick back and you can see them a mile away. And they are loud. They are extremely inefficent in that when facing an entire imperial regiment vs a Starwars clone trooper regiment. The clonetroopers are going to get owned by the sheer vastness of just one regiment of Imperial Guard. The Imperial Guard would just abosolutely slaughter the clone troopers. Sorry here is what we have.
Star Wars Clones
Republic Gunships but are kinda pathetic and are easily destroyed by missiles.
Artillery Units, Extremely powerful but are easily destroyed by a few slavos. Can shoot a beam of energy but have to recharge weapons which takes a few hours if used. Can take down ships if they are close enough. Like below orbit. (Clonewars)
AT-TE Very versatile but is easily destroyed by lancers.
Advanced Recon Force troopers carried out reconnaissance and surveillance for Jedi Generals.[16]
Advanced Recon Commandos performed special reconnaissance missions. Regular clone troopers could be promoted to the rank of ARC trooper.[26]
Alpha-class Advanced Recon Commandos represented the GAR's most elite and deadly soldiers.[6]
Null-class Advanced Recon Commandos, though deemed as failed experiments, were activated as the GAR's lead clone Intelligence units.[3]
Clone assassins were engineered with fast reflexes, trained in stealth, and armed with vibroblades.[59]
Clone commandos trained, lived, and worked together in four unit squads to perform covert operations that were too complex for ordinary troopers. They were regarded as superior units compared to standard clone troopers, though not quite the equals of ARC troopers.[13][8]
Clone blaze troopers were equipped with heavily-armed and armored battle-suits, designed for heavy engagements.[59]
Clone marines were specifically trained to repel Separatist boarding parties, as well as to board and sabotage enemy capital ships.[38]
Covert Ops clone troopers were trained for stealth missions, including assignments that marked clone deserters for summary execution.[17]
Clone ordnance specialist were troopers trained for the disarmament and disposal of explosive weapons.[60]
Clone scout troopers performed reconnaissance and scout missions.[37]
Clone trooper commanders combined enhanced tactical knowledge with advanced combat skills.[1]
MEC trooper, a heavily armed class of clone trooper variants.[61]
Clone shadow troopers were an elite group of stealth units trained for covert operations that pertained to Republic Intelligence jurisdiction.[62]
Clone trooper medics were trained to diagnose and treat wounded soldiers in the field.[63]
The Republic clone trooper's primary weapons for ranged combat were the DC-15A blaster rifle and its more compact counterpart, the DC-15S blaster carbine.[1] In addition, clone troopers often carried one or more grenades of varying types, such as the Merr-Sonn V-1 thermal detonator, LXR-6 concussion grenades, V-6 haywire grenades,[49] and electro magnetic pulse grenades.[13] The pouches and compartments of a trooper's highly functional utility belt contained a multitude of equipment, including a grappling hook, spare ammunition, ration supplies and a rudimentary medical kit containing enough synthflesh and bacta to keep a wounded soldier alive until a medic could arrive
Now not all of these units will be in a regiment of clones, instead they are usually organized into special groups but are sent on special missions.
They have around 2,664 (Wookpedia check it up)
Guardsmen on the other hand have... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Guardsman#.Tw9H6oHF_To A regiment is the primary organisational unit of the Imperial Guard, and of the Imperial Army ground forces before that. The size and composition of Imperial Guard regiments is not standardised across the Imperium; the number of individual Guardsmen alone can vary enormously between regiments, with some only a few hundred strong at founding-strength, whilst others possess tens of thousands of fighting troops.1
Tens of thousands. Founding companies are not sent out to wage wars.
Now This also includes hundreds of battle tanks sometimes.
And something else
But it is the entire imperium vs the Star Wars universe. Sorry but the Starwars universe loses.
Ive nevet said The GE, ive kept it vauge, saying Star Wars, or the Empire, which could mean, the GE, the Imperial Remnaut , the Fel Empire, or the second Galactic Empire. So how about getting some reading comprehension skills, before you insult someone. Okay.
How about you make a logical argument, here?
The IoM would win in space, hands down, no contest. The standard ship, the Cruiser is bigger then a Star Destroyer. The Battleships are even bigger. But before you start with "But Mr. Caboose, sw has XY&Z weapons. Yadayadayada." Thats cool and all, but the IoM fights at longer ranges then SW. So all their super turbolasers, and other weapons, no longer factor. What does factor is how fast they can move, and how much punishment they can take. And since IoM ships are faster in Sub light, they will stay out of range. Plus sw ships have no defense against Psykers. None. And its argued that IoM Gellar Fields would protect against the force.
The Imperium doesn't have any weapons that's range is as long as the galaxy itself, whereas the Galactic Empire does.. So no, they would actually get stomped.
Also, lol @ "geller fields will protect against the force!" Horrible. Geller fields protect against the warp, and nothing but the warp. That's like saying a fireproof suit will protect you against acid.
Just to add to the mix.....people claim that the subspace speeds of the SW universe are extremely slow compared to IoM. In the SW Books that i have concerning speeds and such for SW, there were both Atmospheric speeds and then Space Speeds.....claiming that a ship in space only goes 360kph is not really thinking about space travel in general. Dodge Vipers can almost go that fast....
THe Space shuttle is traveling at 17,000mph just to keep it in orbit.
That being said....SW has the Force, IoM has the Warp. IoM has more in the Space Superiority dept...Capitol Ship wise.....but Republic and some Empire fighters were capable of FTL travel all on their own....they do not even have to risk their Carriers in fights....they just make the jump, hit and then run. The Ground forces i think are pretty evenly matched....with SW having more types of troops (all the myriad races and cultures) while the IoM is human based but having the numbers to ground down all opponents.
Dogface 76 wrote:Just to add to the mix.....people claim that the subspace speeds of the SW universe are extremely slow compared to IoM. In the SW Books that i have concerning speeds and such for SW, there were both Atmospheric speeds and then Space Speeds.....claiming that a ship in space only goes 360kph is not really thinking about space travel in general. Dodge Vipers can almost go that fast....
THe Space shuttle is traveling at 17,000mph just to keep it in orbit.
That being said....SW has the Force, IoM has the Warp. IoM has more in the Space Superiority dept...Capitol Ship wise.....but Republic and some Empire fighters were capable of FTL travel all on their own....they do not even have to risk their Carriers in fights....they just make the jump, hit and then run. The Ground forces i think are pretty evenly matched....with SW having more types of troops (all the myriad races and cultures) while the IoM is human based but having the numbers to ground down all opponents.
So are thunderhawks and smaller craft its just they don't want to risk it.
An equal ground battle?
Since when can an imperator titan be defeated by an AT-AT?
This is the 40k universe vs the entire SW universe.
Ive nevet said The GE, ive kept it vauge, saying Star Wars, or the Empire, which could mean, the GE, the Imperial Remnaut , the Fel Empire, or the second Galactic Empire. So how about getting some reading comprehension skills, before you insult someone. Okay.
How about you make a logical argument, here?
The IoM would win in space, hands down, no contest. The standard ship, the Cruiser is bigger then a Star Destroyer. The Battleships are even bigger. But before you start with "But Mr. Caboose, sw has XY&Z weapons. Yadayadayada." Thats cool and all, but the IoM fights at longer ranges then SW. So all their super turbolasers, and other weapons, no longer factor. What does factor is how fast they can move, and how much punishment they can take. And since IoM ships are faster in Sub light, they will stay out of range. Plus sw ships have no defense against
Psykers. None. And its argued that IoM Gellar Fields would protect against the force.
The Imperium doesn't have any weapons that's range is as long as the galaxy itself, whereas the Galactic Empire does.. So no, they would actually get stomped.
Also, lol @ "geller fields will protect against the force!" Horrible. Geller fields protect against the warp, and nothing but the warp. That's like saying a fireproof suit will protect you against acid.
Wow, really, i smell a troll. One the logic of my arguement was I said Empire, which is a term that can be applied to at least 4 empires.
2. The force and warp power, may be similer enough that a geller field blocks it. So while star wars has zero protection, IoM might ( thats a key word fyi) have protection from the warp.
3. The empire doesnt have one either. It is destroyed. As in gone. To put it in terms you may understand, Star War no longer has a galaxy gun. It went bye bye from a big boo boo.
Okay, in the movie, blasters go right through the storm troopers armor, like it wasnt there. So using movies vs game, and seeing as a lasgun and a blaster are roughly equal, guardsmen have better armor. No way is stormtrooper armor carapace, which can stop bolter rounds, which are basically rpgs.
40K wins. we have superior numbers and quality on the ground. If you want to argue 64000 SMs (source is pg.30-31 in the SM codex as well as the common knowledge of the BT's having 6000ish marines.), countless guardsmen and tanks, Super heavies, titans, Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition, The Officio Assinorum, the Adeptus Custodes and whatever the IoM is keeping quiet.
In space it is a SLIGHTLY more level playing field. You've got you're various DESTROYED super weapons, and the GE fleet, the Seperatist fleet, the Republic fleet*.
We (The IoM) have the various Segmentum battle fleets, the Collective SM fleets, the BT armada. We mighgt also have Planetary Defence fleets **.
That is just the Iom. Discounting the Rag-Tag Ork fleets, the Tyranid Hive fleets, The Necron Tomb fleets, the Eldar Craftwolds (and any defence vessels they have), The DE raiding fleets, the Chaos fleets and the Tau fleets
For christ sake, just conceed the damned aruement already.
so you can say that for any IoM ship. WE REBUILT OURS!!!!!!!! We are using current fluff, not stuff thats already dead! Reference my previous post:
40K wins. we have superior numbers and quality on the ground. If you want to argue 64000 SMs (source is pg.30-31 in the SM codex as well as the common knowledge of the BT's having 6000ish marines.), countless guardsmen and tanks, Super heavies, titans, Adeptus Arbites, the Inquisition, The Officio Assinorum, the Adeptus Custodes and whatever the IoM is keeping quiet.
In space it is a SLIGHTLY more level playing field. You've got you're various DESTROYED super weapons, and the GE fleet, the Seperatist fleet, the Republic fleet*.
We (The IoM) have the various Segmentum battle fleets, the Collective SM fleets, the BT armada. We mighgt also have Planetary Defence fleets **.
That is just the Iom. Discounting the Rag-Tag Ork fleets, the Tyranid Hive fleets, The Necron Tomb fleets, the Eldar Craftwolds (and any defence vessels they have), The DE raiding fleets, the Chaos fleets and the Tau fleets
Automatically Appended Next Post: We have that. You have a couple of late/dead/ex/blown up/kaput/wasted/greased super weapons. My point is OURS STILL WORK.
The Crusader wrote:We have that. You have a couple of late/dead/ex/blown up/kaput/wasted/greased super weapons. My point is OURS STILL WORK.
Still work is a relative term.
we were discussing the SW vs 40k going by the moves then there is no galaxy gun and 40k is at a massive disadvantage, because there are not many 40k movies out there.
but we are comparing universes, so we should include everything from each universe.
DeathReaper wrote:
I could say the same for any 40K ship.
We are comparing SW to 40K
If all you have for something I suggested is "Its already destroyed." then you have nothing.
As for warp travel, the Galaxy Gun can jet through hyperspace, and hyperspace is faster than warp travel.
Ok:
- Problem is that every SSD and DS are destroyed. There are many hundreds if not thousands Emperor class Battleships in 40k, Dominus Astra isn't the only one you know.
-Yes we are, and it is useless because 40k is a galaxy in war for the last 10.000 years while Star Wars galaxy rarely see war on that epic scale.
-As I said 40k has many more in that same class or model. While SW SSD, DS and that Galaxy Gun were all destroyed and were all one of a kind.
-He can't shoot in Warp, that was my point. Imperial ships just enter Warp and GG hit empty space.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:2. The force and warp power, may be similer enough that a geller field blocks it. So while star wars has zero protection, IoM might ( thats a key word fyi) have protection from the warp.
No, there is no MIGHT. The warp and the force are, FACTUALLY, different things. Again, that's like
3. The empire doesnt have one either. It is destroyed. As in gone. To put it in terms you may understand, Star War no longer has a galaxy gun. It went bye bye from a big boo boo.
Star Wars no longer has a GALACTIC EMPIRE. IT WAS DESTROYED.
I guess we just can't have an discussions involving Darth Sideous' Empire, can we, since it was destroyed in Star Wars fluff?
Do you see the failing in your logic, now, or do I need to go into MS Paint and make you a picture?
BlaxicanX wrote:
Do you see the failing in your logic, now, or do I need to go into MS Paint and make you a picture?
Well If we're going on that logic, there's no reason why we can't have the the SM legions and the Holy God Emperor AND anything else that has slipped my mind
DeathReaper wrote:
The Crusader wrote:We have that. You have a couple of late/dead/ex/blown up/kaput/wasted/greased super weapons. My point is OURS STILL WORK.
Still work is a relative term.
we were discussing the SW vs 40k going by the moves then there is no galaxy gun and 40k is at a massive disadvantage, because there are not many 40k movies out there.
but we are comparing universes, so we should include everything from each universe.
And now those fleets grow into the hundereds of millions of CAPITAL ships. and by the way, On Brother Coa's warp travel. You wouldn' be able to shoot us because WE ARE IN ANOTHER DIMENSION!!!!
So by the above points, the Imperial Fleet alone will number in the hundered of millions. Counting the rest of 40k it would number in the hundereds of TRILLIONS (Tyranids, numbnuts). I'd like to see your Star Wars fleet prevail against them then you are gravely mistaken.
BlaxicanX, Im not sure if your aware that we are discussing current fluff vs current fluff. The Galactic Empire is gone, yes, but there was still the Imperial Remanaut, which is later reformed into the Fel Empire, which is later reformed into a second Galactic Empire. Which is as far as I got in the EU. So its perfectly acceptable to say Empire. Since there still is a Empire.
And if we are using anything period from Either universe. IoM has the God-Emperor, so SW loses still. And besides Death Stars are weak, when fighters can blow them up.
Having read through all this stuff. Yes the Empire still exists but it is not a galatic evil that it once was. But it still has the same technology as before. And I thought the Imperium of Man didn't proceed through technology. They still have the same blaster as before from the old republic!
Deathreaper I love how you are fighting back against us but lets face it you keep bringing up old points of super weapons. Even if they were destroyed. Current Fluff vs Current Fluff only. The Imperium wins. No Exceptions Oh wait we have jedi. Well you only have a very limited amount. They have been destroyed how many times? Five times? Six no wait. Seven. How come a bunch of clone troopers slaughtered the entire concalve of the Jedi? I mean oh no the jedi were spread out. Well still, there indiviual warriors why would you spread yourselves out so freaking much?
The Imperium will win this fight because StormTroopers, and Veterans of the Imperial Guard are more elite.
Then you have to face our Titans, and our orbital lasers, and our most powerfulest ships. Admech will take the Empire weaponry refashion it and mass produce it.
ObliviousBlueCaboose wrote:BlaxicanX, Im not sure if your aware that we are discussing current fluff vs current fluff. The Galactic Empire is gone, yes, but there was still the Imperial Remanaut, which is later reformed into the Fel Empire, which is later reformed into a second Galactic Empire. Which is as far as I got in the EU.
Then you need to brush up on your EU. The Galactic Empire no longer exists in current EU fluff.
As for the "God Emperor". He's never shown the ability to do anything besides get his ass kicked by Horus. He's a non-factor.
That being said, where was it stated in this thread that "only current fluff can be used" by the actual maker of the thread, itself? It wasn't. You guys are doing an asspull because you have no answer to Star Wars super weapons, and now you're grasping at straws. Simple as that.
Blackstone Fortresses were built by the Eldar, and can use the Webway, which is instant FTL, and once Farseers/Librarians (especially from the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens) predict the location, we can be there and blow your superweapons to dust in an instant.
Tadashi wrote:Blackstone Fortresses were built by the Eldar, and can use the Webway, which is instant FTL, and once Farseers/Librarians (especially from the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens) predict the location, we can be there and blow your superweapons to dust in an instant.
Imagine how demoralizing it would be as a Empire officer to be on your little little tiny Star Destroyer with this massive mother-fether comes flying out of the Warp.
Tadashi wrote:Blackstone Fortresses were built by the Eldar, and can use the Webway, which is instant FTL, and once Farseers/Librarians (especially from the Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens) predict the location, we can be there and blow your superweapons to dust in an instant.
The webway doesn't cover the entire Galaxy. Not even most of it, actually, according to the 4E Eldar dex. So, this fails.
You want to use destroyed superweapons, so I'll use an intact Webway, either the one dating from the glory days of the ancient Eldar Empire, or the restored and expanded one in the Emperor's vision of an Imperial Galaxy. Or failing that, I'll build a Temple of Chaos Undivided, sacrifice a million innocents, and have the gods unleash warp storms and daemons on your superweapons.
Tadashi wrote:You want to use destroyed superweapons, so I'll use an intact Webway, either the one dating from the glory days of the ancient Eldar Empire, or the restored and expanded one in the Emperor's vision of an Imperial Galaxy. Or failing that, I'll build a Temple of Chaos Undivided, sacrifice a million innocents, and have the gods unleash warp storms and daemons on your superweapons.
Or just show a few Ork Warbosses all the shiny bitz they can get by invading the Empire.
Tadashi wrote:Would be nice to see a Crusade composed entirely of Titans and Skitarii to destroy those Men of Iron, I mean droids and their factories.
Fighting against the Separatists would be a Mek Boyz wet dream.
"Look at all dat shiny bitz and fancy tin 'eads! Dis is a gonna be un 'ell of a fight! I love being a loota!"
"Shut up, ya gitz! Shoot now, loot later!"
- Warboss and a Loota Boy
Tadashi wrote:You want to use destroyed superweapons, so I'll use an intact Webway, either the one dating from the glory days of the ancient Eldar Empire, or the restored and expanded one in the Emperor's vision of an Imperial Galaxy. Or failing that, I'll build a Temple of Chaos Undivided, sacrifice a million innocents, and have the gods unleash warp storms and daemons on your superweapons.
Prove that the intact webway covered the entirety of the Galaxy.
Also, prove that warp storms are instantaneous. Considering that hyperspace jumps are quicker and more efficient than warp jumps, and also don't require using the warp at all, its within reason to assume that any Imperial ship could simply make a hyperspace jump to somewhere else.
Anyway, demons and stuff, yes. Is this your way of saying the Imperium has no way of defeating the Galactic Empire on its own?
Tadashi wrote:You want to use destroyed superweapons, so I'll use an intact Webway, either the one dating from the glory days of the ancient Eldar Empire, or the restored and expanded one in the Emperor's vision of an Imperial Galaxy. Or failing that, I'll build a Temple of Chaos Undivided, sacrifice a million innocents, and have the gods unleash warp storms and daemons on your superweapons.
Or just show a few Ork Warbosses all the shiny bitz they can get by invading the Empire.
"Boyz, I think we just hit the biggest jackpot of loot in dis big universe!
WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
A friend of mine pointed out to me that in the 5E rules codex (or it might've been SM, can't remember), it's stated that if the Emperor ever truly dies, Chaos will flood the universe and reality will cease to exist. In that manner there's nothing in the Star Wars universe that could contend with that, as the Chaos Gods can't be killed by conventional means.
Tadashi wrote:You want to use destroyed superweapons, so I'll use an intact Webway, either the one dating from the glory days of the ancient Eldar Empire, or the restored and expanded one in the Emperor's vision of an Imperial Galaxy. Or failing that, I'll build a Temple of Chaos Undivided, sacrifice a million innocents, and have the gods unleash warp storms and daemons on your superweapons.
Prove that the intact webway covered the entirety of the Galaxy.
Also, prove that warp storms are instantaneous. Considering that hyperspace jumps are quicker and more efficient than warp jumps, and also don't require using the warp at all, its within reason to assume that any Imperial ship could simply make a hyperspace jump to somewhere else.
Anyway, demons and stuff, yes. Is this your way of saying the Imperium has no way of defeating the Galactic Empire on its own?
The Eldar Empire's homeworlds are in what is now the Eldar Empire, but their influence covered the whole galaxy, so the Webway did extend over the entire galaxy. Even if it didn't the Imperial Webway would have.
And, this is 40k vs. SW remember? Any faction will do, since you can't accept the fact that without your superweapons, you are helpless before the iron fist of the Imperial Military.
And warp storms are instantaneous, they happen without warning, especially the ones summoned by sorcery and not the 'freak' storms that happen every now and then. Before your ships go into hyperspace, they'll get torn apart by the warp.
Tadashi wrote:You want to use destroyed superweapons, so I'll use an intact Webway, either the one dating from the glory days of the ancient Eldar Empire, or the restored and expanded one in the Emperor's vision of an Imperial Galaxy. Or failing that, I'll build a Temple of Chaos Undivided, sacrifice a million innocents, and have the gods unleash warp storms and daemons on your superweapons.
Prove that the intact webway covered the entirety of the Galaxy.
Also, prove that warp storms are instantaneous. Considering that hyperspace jumps are quicker and more efficient than warp jumps, and also don't require using the warp at all, its within reason to assume that any Imperial ship could simply make a hyperspace jump to somewhere else.
Anyway, demons and stuff, yes. Is this your way of saying the Imperium has no way of defeating the Galactic Empire on its own?
The Eldar Empire's homeworlds are in what is now the Eldar Empire, but their influence covered the whole galaxy, so the Webway did extend over the entire galaxy. Even if it didn't the Imperial Webway would have.
And, this is 40k vs. SW remember? Any faction will do, since you can't accept the fact that without your superweapons, you are helpless before the iron fist of the Imperial Military. Before your ships go into hyperspace, they'll get torn apart by the warp.
And warp storms are instantaneous, they happen without warning, especially the ones summoned by sorcery and not the 'freak' storms that happen every now and then.
Not to mention the fact that the "Gods of Chaos" with Chaos implied in the name would never let there fan base the Imperium of Man die.
Or the Great game to end, what else would the gods to with out it?
Tadashi wrote:The Eldar Empire's homeworlds are in what is now the Eldar Empire, but their influence covered the whole galaxy, so the Webway did extend over the entire galaxy. Even if it didn't the Imperial Webway would have.
I asked you to prove this, please.
And, this is 40k vs. SW remember? Any faction will do, since you can't accept the fact that without your superweapons, you are helpless before the iron fist of the Imperial Military. Before your ships go into hyperspace, they'll get torn apart by the warp.
Not saying you can't use any faction, just remarking that it's funny how the 40K side of this keeps changing its tune. First it was "The Imperium alone would slaughter the GE!" When that proved to be false, a new tactic was introduced: "Current fluff only!" That's failed, and now we're at the next step, which is basically "throw everything in the 40k universe possible at 'em". Just an observation of the evolving dynamic in here, is all. As I just said above, the Chaos Gods would be able to destroy the Empire eventually, probably through corrupting its personnel, because the Chaos Gods can't be killed.
And warp storms are instantaneous, they happen without warning, especially the ones summoned by sorcery and not the 'freak' storms that happen every now and then.
