Even though in the beginning the Emperor outlawed the use of Psychic Potential, I think we all agree that having a Psyker can be Devastating to the enemy.
Some Librarians though are more in tune with their own potential and stand out among their peers.
No doubt all of the UM and BA followers will be all over this, but I think Stormcaller
"The sheer accuracy of his predictions about the movement and intents of the Great Devourer have led many to believe that Tigurius has managed to penetrate the Hive Mind itself, something only a psyker as powerful as the Emperor could withstand without going insane. If this is true, and the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines really has tapped into the Hive Mind, it would make him the most powerful active psyker in the Imperium, second only to the Immortal God Emperor himself."
Because the gratest of them all - are the Ultramarines.
He IS the Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons. Just because he's now considered a traitor, has been kicked out by his primarch, and is now bouncing around the universe raiding museums and such doesn't mean he's not still a Librarian.
Brother Coa wrote:"The sheer accuracy of his predictions about the movement and intents of the Great Devourer have led many to believe that Tigurius has managed to penetrate the Hive Mind itself, something only a psyker as powerful as the Emperor could withstand without going insane. If this is true, and the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines really has tapped into the Hive Mind, it would make him the most powerful active psyker in the Imperium, second only to the Immortal God Emperor himself."
Because the gratest of them all - are the Ultramarines.
This is exactly why Ward cuts so much crap from the 40k community. But none the less that is the fluff and i guess that makes him the strongest.
Although I am a little biased by supporting Stormcaller even though he is an awesomely devastating figure in this area.
I have to agree that a Pre-Heresy Ahriman is the Daddy Librarian and would wipe the floor with everyone in poll...at once even, maybe
I might be pushing the boundaries there though lol?
Brother Coa wrote:"The sheer accuracy of his predictions about the movement and intents of the Great Devourer have led many to believe that Tigurius has managed to penetrate the Hive Mind itself, something only a psyker as powerful as the Emperor could withstand without going insane. If this is true, and the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines really has tapped into the Hive Mind, it would make him the most powerful active psyker in the Imperium, second only to the Immortal God Emperor himself."
Because the gratest of them all - are the Ultramarines.
That essentially means that Eldrad is more powerful than the Emperor, and that isn't true.
Ward is not a good source of fluff, Tigurius' and Draigo's fluff are both pure bs.
Brother Coa wrote:"The sheer accuracy of his predictions about the movement and intents of the Great Devourer have led many to believe that Tigurius has managed to penetrate the Hive Mind itself, something only a psyker as powerful as the Emperor could withstand without going insane. If this is true, and the Chief Librarian of the Ultramarines really has tapped into the Hive Mind, it would make him the most powerful active psyker in the Imperium, second only to the Immortal God Emperor himself."
Because the gratest of them all - are the Ultramarines.
Remember that that presents it as a theory. Besides that, it contradicts itself unless Tigurius is insane.
Mephiston. Simply being crushed by rubble repeatedly, killing Carnifexes with his bare hands and simply being awesome in-game is good. Shame he has no Invulnerable...
He IS the Chief Librarian of the Thousand Sons. Just because he's now considered a traitor, has been kicked out by his primarch, and is now bouncing around the universe raiding museums and such doesn't mean he's not still a Librarian.
hmmm, this answer could vary massively, did it have to be the most powerfull psycher? cos that would be the emperor, if it was excluding the emperor it would have to be malcador the sigilite, if it is strictly someone that has been a sm librarian at one point or another then im not really sure, ive never taken much intrest in psychic powers, us necrons dont have em.
I think counting Ahriman is a bit cheating. I think he IS more powerful of a psyker than the others. The reason he is so much more powerful is that he has already embraced Chaos and does not limit his power by refusing corruption. Hell, he is actively HUNTING power.
Now, with that out of the way, I lean more towards Tigurious. Sure, Mephiston is powerful, physically. His psychic powers have amped his physical prowess by a LARGE multitude. He's now as tough as...Chaplain Cassius. And he can strike at Str. 10!...by using a standard BA power that every Librarian knows. Now, not knocking Mephiston (just rolling my eyes occasionally. Sorry, sorry...) he IS powerful, but his powers are too limited in focus for us to truly gauge his psychic potential. All his powers focus on him, so that more shows he has mastered himself as his own psychic conduit. If he shows an ability to vaporize a Land Raider with a thought or, well, communicate with the Hive Mind, then it might be different. For now, I'm putting him in close second for being limited.
Now, Tigurious, on the other hand, does have a few vague faults. It is quite a bit in speculation exactly what he HAS done, but his powers are still far reaching without a blantant statement like Mr. Ward (go figure) made out. He knows all Space Marine powers, unlike well, anyone else (if I remember correctly). Only Mephiston can rival Tigurious' power usage.
All Chief Libys are freaking powerful. And all equal in skill. Some more than others. But Tigirus is the best predicter! Not the most powerful. Mephiston is the strongest. Alaric is the best overall. (Hehehe.)
After a Bloodthirster killed his mentor, Njal Stormcaller went mental and obliterated the Bloodthirster, he had tapped into the elements aswell as his own Psychic Potential and the Warp and handed the Bloodthirster his arse.
I know that the amount of fluff on Mephiston and Tigurius is massive but don't count the Wolf Priest out just yet.
I think that with all of the well known Liby's there is always some massive story somewhere that makes them seem like they can blow mountains apart whilst eating their Cornflakes and playing Call of Duty.
I'd say it depends on the context of 'most powerful'. Strongest, Mephiston. Most precise predictions? Tigurius. You get the idea.
I'd say that none are over all 'better' than another, but I'd say in a psychic fight that Tigurius might win due to all the crazy stuff the Hood of Hellfire can do, depending on the edition. But hey, we all have our biases.
Ahriman is chuckling at the thought of those newborns daring challenge him.
About loyal librarians (because that's the actual category of that poll ), I think we don't have enough elements on Ezekiel to really judge. His powers are more dedicated to investigation and interrogation anyway, nothing as spectacular as Njal and Meph, those posers, and to me not really comparable. We're also in the vague about what exactly Mephiston achieved to control the Black Rage.
I think they're all the best at what they do, in fact. Mephiston is a psychically enhanced wrecking ball, nobody can attain a battlefield-wide presence like Njal does, Ezekiel could likely extract secrets from a rock or a daemon, and Tigurius excels at being an ultrasmurf.
Then, if you want a generic power level... Time to put on your scouter.
Iranna wrote:"Is the size of your sorcery getting you down? Look no further: Chaos has the answer.
No longer will the Ultramarines laugh at your puny psychic abilities, that's right: your buddy Tzeentch has got your back.
Order now and save an amazing 40%!"
Oh you...
I almost coughed my toothpaste on my screen.
Marzillius wrote:
That essentially means that Eldrad is more powerful than the Emperor, and that isn't true.
This has been stated explicitly in material. No syllogism necessary.
Also, in regards to this poll, probably Ahriman. If you meant non-chaos Librarians, then Sarpedon. If you meant Imperium Librarians, then Tigurius.
Sure, Mr. of Death can take Tigurius in fisticuffs, but he's never been known for his psychic might. Tigurius has been the Imperium's greatest psyker since he was invented.
Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
As has been concluded in another thread, Eldrad (fluff-wise) would completely annihilate Mephiston in a psychic battle.
Out of the list you've provided, I'll have to say Tigurius. While Mephiston has mastered psychic abilities which empower him, Tigurius is a master of all the psychic arts.
Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
As has been concluded in another thread, Eldrad (fluff-wise) would completely annihilate Mephiston in a psychic battle.
Out of the list you've provided, I'll have to say Tigurius. While Mephiston has mastered psychic abilities which empower him, Tigurius is a master of all the psychic arts.
Iranna.
*Reads thread*
Looks at both comments.
The list provided just isn't enough. We have 10 named chief libarains.
Sarpdon of the Soul Drinkers
The Red Scorpions Chief Libararian WHO IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TIGURIUS!
Aldrek the Chief Rune Priest of the Space Wolves (Yes Njar Stormcaller is not the Chief)
Just add to the list XD
Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
bollocks. lol
I bet Njal would pwn him psychically.. Ahriman would eat him as well. This is librarians so it's the psychic which we're going off. You want to decide things from how much a smurf can lift go start a separate thread.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Ahriman is a SORCEROR, not a PSYKER.
.......strangely they both deal with warpcraft and get nailed by SITW........its kind of like saying "My pet is a canine, not a dog"
Agreed. In the 40k verse it seems more accurate to describe sorcery as a more exotic discipline of psychic mastery, rather than a seperate entity or even just a different name for the darker version of the same thing. To me it's like saying Dark/black Magic and Magic or wizard vs warlock.
Asherian Command wrote:
*Reads thread*
Looks at both comments.
The list provided just isn't enough. We have 10 named chief libarains.
Sarpdon of the Soul Drinkers
The Red Scorpions Chief Libararian WHO IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TIGURIUS!
Aldrek the Chief Rune Priest of the Space Wolves (Yes Njar Stormcaller is not the Chief)
Just add to the list XD
He's asking you who is the most powerful in the list provided, not in the entire Imperium.
Asherian Command wrote:
*Reads thread*
Looks at both comments.
The list provided just isn't enough. We have 10 named chief libarains.
Sarpdon of the Soul Drinkers
The Red Scorpions Chief Libararian WHO IS MORE POWERFUL THAN TIGURIUS!
Aldrek the Chief Rune Priest of the Space Wolves (Yes Njar Stormcaller is not the Chief)
Just add to the list XD
He's asking you who is the most powerful in the list provided, not in the entire Imperium.
Iranna.
The quote he responded to claimed that Mephiston is the most powerful psyker ever except Magnus and the Emperor.
Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
Tigurius. And no, the 'most powerful living psyker in the Imperium' line isn't even Matt Ward's fluff; that was in the 4h Edition Space Marine Codex, too. Tigurius can in fact tell what the Tyranids are going to do, which means he is capable of one of two things;
1) Predicting the future with pin-point accuracy, or
2) Tapping directly into the Hive Mind without being driven insane.
Either way, that's far more badass than Mephiston, who uses his psychic power to make himself stronger (which any Librarian can do) or Njal, who uses his psychic power to make it windy and cold.
Ahriman, of course, is on an entirely different level from any of them, as is Eldrad.
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DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
False. Anyone can try to attract the attention of the Chaos Gods, and if the Chaos Gods happen to like you, they may gift you with sorcery; but sorcerors and psykers use exactly the same source of power, in basically the same way. The words are essentially interchangable; one is 'psykers the Imperium likes' and the other is 'psykers the Imperium murders on sight'.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
False. Anyone can try to attract the attention of the Chaos Gods, and if the Chaos Gods happen to like you, they may gift you with sorcery; but sorcerors and psykers use exactly the same source of power, in basically the same way. The words are essentially interchangable; one is 'psykers the Imperium likes' and the other is 'psykers the Imperium murders on sight'.
Magnus was banned from studying sorcery, but was allowed to practice his psyker abilities... Sorcery is the manipulation of the warp through objects, psykers use their minds. One can study sorcery, one cannot learn how to become a psyker...
Magnus was banned from studying sorcery, but was allowed to practice his psyker abilities... Sorcery is the manipulation of the warp through objects, psykers use their minds. One can study sorcery, one cannot learn how to become a psyker...
One can study sorcery if one is a psyker. 'Magic', as we think of it, does not exist in 40k, only psychic powers. Sorcerors may use ritual objects to focus their minds, but then so do Imperial psykers; the object does not provide the power and control, the sorceror's mind does.
'Sorcery' is the name which the Imperium gives to those uses of psychic power of which it does not approve, or which can be learned from daemons and the Chaos Gods. 'Sorcerors' are the people who use their psychic abilities in certain ways to summon daemons and/or manifest the powers associated with Tzeentch, Slaanesh, or Nurgle. 'Psykers' are the people who only use their psychic abilites in certain prescribed ways, and do not study the Warp or daemonology.
I don't believe there is a single instance, in all of 40k fluff, of a person who is not a psyker using sorcery. If there is, I haven't seen it; can you provide an example?
Well the Sanctioned Psyker = good (or rather OK-ish), Sorcerer = bad thing has been blurred a tad by the infamous C:GK, since the GKs are now explicitly described as using sorcery (and are psykers).
But I'd be with the Deadly Squirrel on this one. The lore is full of examples of 'blunts' invoking 'supernatural' power and/or making daemonic pacts via relics, talismans, sigils, sacrifice and belief, and following the instructions in evil tomes. That's why Chaos incursions and artifacts are so dangerous and all who perceive them are contained or purged: They give 'blunts' the ability to act as sorcerers (wittingly or unwittingly).
So yeah, using sorcery is cheating since it uses external and daemonic devices to create effects; this isn't the same as having an innate ability and amplifying that with a mundane piece of tech (Tarot, object used as a focus, hood etc).
If you can only perform a certain act by using a particular object or calling upon a daemon etc then that's sorcery (however powerful a psyker you might otherwise be).
But I'd be with the Deadly Squirrel on this one. The lore is full of examples of 'blunts' invoking 'supernatural' power and/or making daemonic pacts via relics, talismans, sigils, sacrifice and belief, and following the instructions in evil tomes. That's why Chaos incursions and artifacts are so dangerous and all who perceive them are contained or purged: They give 'blunts' the ability to act as sorcerers (wittingly or unwittingly).
Can you give any examples? Because, honestly, I don't recall any at the moment.
The only times 'blunts' ever do anything involved with the Warp is if a daemon who has somehow entered reality (though a Warp rift or the work of a psyker) is creating the effect. At all other times, anyone who is using sorcery is clearly described as a psyker. Anyone can make a pact with a daemon if they can find one, of course; but I wouldn't say that's 'sorcery', because the pact-maker is not actually contacting the Warp.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
Nonsense. Librarians use staffs, books and prayers.. how is that any different from the 'sorcerers'? Sorcery is just a part of the psyker abilities that taps into the more exotic areas of the warp, that's the general implication we've always been given (Think Sith/Jedi..both force users however one uses forbidden lore to further their power). Inquisitors use these powers, Librarians use those powers, the emperor uses those powers, the farseers use those powers and sorcerers use those powers. They're just all groups of psykers who practise in different disciplines but are ultimately all psykers.
Semper wrote:Nonsense. Librarians use staffs, books and prayers.. how is that any different from the 'sorcerers'?
Sorcery is a very distinct and separate process to psychic power.
With sorcery you make pacts with daemons, manipulate the logic and laws of the warp, make sacrifices, and perform rituals to attract the attention of the darker powers of the warp.
Psykers draw the warp's energy and manipulate realspace with said energy. It's like the difference between a sorcerer(Psyker) and a warlock(Sorcerer) in DnD, truth be told. In DnD:
Spoiler:
A wizard studies the laws of magic and how to manipulate it thorugh a lifetime of study. They are intellectual spellcasters. The equivalent to this is an adept who studies the warp or a more scholarly psyker (who is across between a wizard and a sorcerer, essentially like a multiclasser), though the former is quite rare and mostly amongst the Inquisition (see FFG's Dark Heresy corebook) because usually such studies are otherwise heresy. Librarians might fall somewhat in to this category, but they'd more fit the next one because they are born with their power. Similarly, 40k!Sorcerers likely fit somewhat into this, but they fit more in to the warlock type.
A sorcerer is born with magic, and spend their lives expanding upon their natural power instead of trying to study it. Rather than memorizing spells, they can draw forth spells because of their nature. Some study is usually still beneficial to them so that they can control their spells, however. This is what a battle psyker is most like, and a librarian definitely is this.
A warlock is the last type of arcane spellcaster. They perform rituals, make sacrifices, and make dark pacts with unknowable creatures for power, often demons and devils although not exclusively so. This is a direct comparison to 40k!sorcerers, and though 40k!sorcerers may have some elements of both the previous types (a psyker can be a 40k!sorcerer, but a 40k!sorcerer does not have to be a psyker-- any non-Blank individual can become a 40k!sorcerer).
While I wouldn't claim that Librarians don't do this (however unlikely it seems) because I tend to ignore Marine lore because it's usually pretty poorly written, Sanctionites do not participate in sorcery. It is heresy. Staffs are a focus for the psyker's power, they are not unique to sorcerers. Nor are books, nor are prayers.
Being a psyker is genetic, you are born a psyker by a the random hand of fate. Being a sorcerer is a choice, you become a sorcerer by selling your soul for power.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Psykers use the power of their mind to manipulate the warp energies, sorcerers use actual arcane magic to manipulate the warp - by using tomes and other elderitch artefacts.
IIRC anyone can use sorcery in the 40k univere with enough training but psychic powers are an innate ability that one is born with.
Nonsense. Librarians use staffs, books and prayers.. how is that any different from the 'sorcerers'? Sorcery is just a part of the psyker abilities that taps into the more exotic areas of the warp, that's the general implication we've always been given (Think Sith/Jedi..both force users however one uses forbidden lore to further their power). Inquisitors use these powers, Librarians use those powers, the emperor uses those powers, the farseers use those powers and sorcerers use those powers. They're just all groups of psykers who practise in different disciplines but are ultimately all psykers.
They use their minds.
Read Space Marine librarian and other things.
Books are usually carried because they record things. They don't say magic words from them. They think it and they do it.
That would mean everyone would use books, staffs, and prayers. not all of them do.
Prayers are giving the person a willpower bonus (which basically shields them even though they think they are being protected by the emperor in fact it is they who are causing it) Staffs focus the power. And books record the information. The Librarians job is to record deeds done in the chapter and only the grey Knights use the book's they carry for something else like True Names against Daemons.
All of this Stuff Can be found in the 4th edition and the 5th edition space marine codexs. And also every piece of fiction that has used Librarians
Farseers use stones to amplify their power.
Sorcerers bargain and get power and do many other nasty things. (Though they have to find a book of the ruinous powers first)
Santictioned Priests have to do alot of other things.
Space Marine Liby's use their mind. Plus The staff isn't just limited to a staff. There are such things as Force Swords, Force Halbrieds, Force Axe, Force Hammer, Force Claws, Force (Insert melee weapon here), anything they would want that bonds with the pysker. (Yes Weapons have machine spirits.)
I'll repeat my request; can someone provide an example of any piece of fluff in which a non-psyker sorcerer exists? Because I think you're drawing a false distinction. Sorcery, as I've always understood it, is not something distinct from psychic power but a SUBSET of psychic power; all sorcerers are necessarily psykers, though not all psykers are sorcerers.
Melissia wrote:The Black Crusade core rulebook goes in to it in more depth ,but it is also covered in the dark heresy supplements.
Fair enough. I don't have any DH stuff, so I haven't read whatever's written in there. I'm working off of the core rulebooks, codexes, and BL fiction; but the impression I've always gotten is that 'sorcerer' and 'psyker' are really two different names for either identical or very similar things, both of which work via drawing Warp energy into realspace through the intermediary of a human brain (which has to be mutated in a particular way to be capable of this). For instance, sorcery is never mentioned in connection with blunts, only when referring to psykers; the words 'sorcerer' and 'psyker' seem in some places to be used interchangably, and certainly every Chaos-aligned psyker is called a 'sorcerer' regardless of the specific mechanic by which they use their power.
The BL books are notorious for being contradictory with eachother and the core books, and even inherently within their own logic. And the corebooks are limited as they only really care about what goes on in the tabletop.
I'll give you an example of sorcery that does not require a psyker, however:
Disciples of the Dark Gods wrote:To the Ordos [of the Inquisition], a Logos Daemonis is an instruction to foul beasts of the Emyrean and a danger to Mankind by its apparently innocent nature until moved into the final configuration. The attendance of any other form of warp-craft or psyker taint is not necessary for a Logos to activate and calldown destruction upon all around it.
It is literally sorcery activated by a machine which was itself crafted to summon a daemon in to realspace bound to it. No psyker power is necessary in its creation or in the manipulation of it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeRzErKeR wrote:the words 'sorcerer' and 'psyker' seem in some places to be used interchangably, and certainly every Chaos-aligned psyker is called a 'sorcerer' regardless of the specific mechanic by which they use their power.
The former is true yes. The Imperium uses sorcerer as an insult, after all, and most people in the Imperium who refer to sorcery have no damned clue what they refer to.
The latter however is not true-- Black Crusade for example refers to psykers as merely "psykers", while Imperial psykers are actually referred to as Sanctionites (or Sanctioned Psykers / Imperial Psykers for alternate names).
BeRzErKeR: I'm trying to get a source for you about blunt sorcerors. It's tricky since: for me it's one of those common things I've come across in the lore for ages so whenever I've come across it (again) I haven't mentally tagged it as noteworthy... and most 40k books and whatnot are pretty samey (and mind-numbingly empty) and merge into each other...; and the majority of my deep knowledge of the 40k lore came from stuff of a decade and more ago (gettin' old - can't remember nothing...).
I'll drop any sources I can remember for you - but if I don't, that doesn't mean that there aren't any. What about the old (retconned now) Nikaea thing where sorcerors were forbidden but psykers/librarians weren't? There must have been at least some distinction between these two things then. But yeah, once that retcon flamethrower gets going when your back's turned, who knows what it's hit?
Semper: I'd say that the major difference between Jedi/Sith isn't in the study of lore (though that can be part of it for both parties) but that Jedi strive to be ego-less to let the Force act through them unimpeded, where Sith use emotion and will to bend the Force to their desires. Jedi are the tools of the Force, Sith use the Force as a tool.
I only mention this because, for all that 40k can be pretty generic and archetypal, it's really hard to transpose a Jedi/Sith into this setting accurately; which points to the different metaphysics (which some might find interesting or relevant).
Disciples of the Dark Gods wrote:To the Ordos [of the Inquisition], a Logos Daemonis is an instruction to foul beasts of the Emyrean and a danger to Mankind by its apparently innocent nature until moved into the final configuration. The attendance of any other form of warp-craft or psyker taint is not necessary for a Logos to activate and calldown destruction upon all around it.
It is literally sorcery activated by a machine which was itself crafted to summon a daemon in to realspace bound to it. No psyker power is necessary in its creation or in the manipulation of it.
But doesn't that sentence seem to imply, to you, that the Logos Daemonis works through a psychic mechanism? It sounds to me as if the machine itself works on the same 'principle', for lack of a better word, as a human psyker's connection to the Warp does. Does just the fact that it's a machine and not a person disqualify it?
I'm not trying to be pedantic here; I'm genuinely curious, because the way I read the lore, the fact that the distinction between 'sorcery' and 'psyker powers' was so thin and subjective is one of the most interesting things about the Imperium. It condemns Chaos powers on the one hand while, on the other, relying utterly upon them for it's own survival; it feeds Chaos to sustain itself, while also warring bitterly against Chaos to prevent its own destruction. If sorcery and psychic powers are genuinely, objectively different things, a great deal of that inner tension goes away, and that actually makes the setting a bit less interesting.
BeRzErKeR wrote:But doesn't that sentence seem to imply, to you, that the Logos Daemonis works through a psychic mechanism?
No.
It binds a daemon through sorcery to the object, destroying the object in the process and creating a daemon which rages through the environment until it destabilizes and loses form.
A daemon can be bound through psychic power (controlling the daemon through willpower) but the mechanisms aren't the same any more than, say... a subpoena (using sorcery to bind a daemon) is the same as taking a gun to someone's head and forcing them to go to court without a subpoena (a psyker using willpower to bind a daemon).
Njal is a Rune Priest, they throw bones on the ground and yell at the sky. Do you really think any psyker has a chance agaisnt a man so loud mouthed that when he yells it gets windy and cold. Yet all of this is for nothing because he is a Rune Priest a shaman of Fenris and above the petty squables of the imperialist psykers who rely on the power of the warp when rune priests rely soley on the power of Fenris.
He can bring the pain and call down the rain.
Going by the current amount of votes, most people think Mephy is the most powerful psyker and I agree. He would totally take take Njal and Tigurius force weapons and beat them to death
He has a unique set of pychic powers, including 2 that only he knows. He can drive anything insane enough to not be able to fight, he has very good close combat skills AND he lost an eye to an orc warboss, (Gazhkulls off-sider Nazdreg I believe), only stopping to get a crude bionic and then chopped the warboss's head off and caused the orks to flee.
He has a unique set of pychic powers, including 2 that only he knows. He can drive anything insane enough to not be able to fight, he has very good close combat skills AND he lost an eye to an orc warboss, (Gazhkulls off-sider Nazdreg I believe), only stopping to get a crude bionic and then chopped the warboss's head off and caused the orks to flee.
Ezekial killed Nazdreg? Where's this? Because as far as I know, Nazdreg is still around.
Mephiston (though I will admit to not knowing the full extent of Njal's power) Since I haven't read about it at all.
Speaking of Ahriman, Other then Heresy books, where can I read more about him? (sorry for going off topic) But I want to know where to get more sources as A Thousand Sons does not explain his power(well his power after that book)
Also are the librarians that can be voted for in this pole undisputed Librarian elites? Like lesser talked about Pyriel of the Salamanders(Da'kir also) or any standout Stormseer's? (White Scars)
BeRzErKeR wrote:I'll repeat my request; can someone provide an example of any piece of fluff in which a non-psyker sorcerer exists? Because I think you're drawing a false distinction. Sorcery, as I've always understood it, is not something distinct from psychic power but a SUBSET of psychic power; all sorcerers are necessarily psykers, though not all psykers are sorcerers.
DeadlySquirrel wrote:Ahriman is a SORCEROR, not a PSYKER.
.......strangely they both deal with warpcraft and get nailed by SITW........its kind of like saying "My pet is a canine, not a dog"
Sorcerers delve deeper into power and can push themselves beyond the scope and limits of traditional pyskers though they do risk more the sorcerer weilds greater power think of it like wizards and witches one studies and perfects the other throws a curse at the drop of a hat. They aren't alike they are different but still I am putting Tigurus because his fluff is ridiculous all you have mephiston doing is sporting psychically enchaned heat-rate and muscles and nervous system it's one discipline of pskers and not a overall understanding and practicality to his effect.
Personally if this has turned to most powerful psyker then it's either Eldrad or Chaos itself.
I would not contest the idea that the best of the best Primaris psykers are stronger than an average Librarian. But an average Librarian should be at least as strong if not stronger than an average Primaris psyker.
Index Astartes Librarians
The Librarians of the Space Marine Chapters are mighty warrior-mystics, inspiring figures who wield incredible and devastating powers. They are an integral part of the Adeptus Astartes, outstanding warriors who utilise their psychically enhanced wisdom and knowledge to fulfil the role of oracles and psychic communication within the Space Marine Chapters. Such powers come at a price, however, and only those with the strongest willpower are capable of withstanding the constant pressures that come with psychic awareness. For every successful psyker, there are countless others whose lack of control threatens to doom them to an eternity of torment. Of those psykers whose strength of will enables them to control their powers, the most highly trained and potent are the Librarians of the Adeptus Astartes.
…….
Space Marine Librarians are amongst the most potent of all Mankind's psykers, highly talented and trained to the highest levels.
In terms of overall psychic potency and versatility, probably Tigurius. Although often accused of such, Tigurius and his entry in the Space Marines codex is not really a Wardism. The whole Hive Mind thing and being the best psyker in the Imperium? Was in the 4e codex too.
If ex-Librarians count, undoubtedly Ahriman, I would say.
DarknessEternal wrote:This has been stated explicitly in material.
On the whole staffs are used as a focal point, prayers are used as a shield, books are used as 7th grade girl journals, that is not explicitly true, I have seen a Libby club the crap out of many a xeno with the spine of his book
Really, the term "powerful" is rather subjective. Sheer psychic power is probably Ahriman, maybe Varro, sheer beatstick ability is Mephiston, sheer boosts and presence is Njall. And a slight nit-pick, but the Space Wolves believe their power comes from Fenris, so should he be included? He probably wouldn't like being included among psykers.
Lucarikx - Except mephy does not suffer from the black rage.
He has beaten it and it has no effect on him.
And was after that his name was changed to mephiston.
Power wise, it all depends.
Prediction wise tigurius is unmatched on that list.
Strength wise, mephiston is unmatched.
Ezekiel - Im not too up to date on his fluff.
Njal is unmatched for his beard though.
Really, these 4 couldnt be any more different if they had tried.
What would you call her abilities? She's a very strange phenomenon itself.
As for the Librarians.. I'd say Tigurius is more well rounded but Mephiston is right there as well
She is a Daemonifuge, and a Living Saint. The Daemonifuge part is where she basically has the True Names of Slaanesh and most of its Daemons stuffed into her head, giving her practically unlimited power over them. The Living Saint part is why she keeps coming back to life.
Varro. As well as the previously mentioned supreme divination and possibility of cracking open the Hivemind itself, he simultaneously defeated seven Chaos Space Marine sorcerers while only a mere Lexicanum. Also he has since come into the possession of a force staff once owned by Malcador himself, so that's probably a good thing.
I don't think there is a "Most Powerful Librarian"
To be a Librarian, especially a chief Librarian such as one of those indicated, one can't simply wing it. It requires centuries of valorous service. That combined with the rather immaterial, shifting, and genuinely chaotic nature of channelling the warp and utilizing psychic powers in any sort of controlled manner means that at any given time a Librarian could have a good day or a bad day.
Tigurius is a beast
Mephiston is a monster
Stormcaller, Ezekiel, and Sevrin Loth are all very skilled, massively powerful individuals but a big part of their power rests on their ability to harness powers that no one truly understands or comprehends.
Personally my money is on Sevrin Loth but that's just because I like his story and background.
I feel like Njal has a lot of raw psychic power, beating that of most of the other options here, but he loses the fight to Mephiston in terms of efficiency. Sure, he can call up storm and wind, but he has no control over the specifics.
Mephiston, meanwhile, loses to Tigurius. He is powerful, but all of his powers are focused internally, on buffing himself up.
Tigurius, meanwhile, can do all of the above, with precision. If he ever actually geared up for Close Combat, he'd be unstopabble. (Give him Artificer Armor, an Iron Halo, and something fast and AP2. The Empy's sword would do.) Just going off of the rulebook powers available, he can buff himself up as much as Mephiston, or be granted nigh-perfect sight of the future, or control and sculpt pure flame, or any number of other options. And he has better control over what he does than any other Librarian.
And he only fails 1/144 times, unlike the other psykers.
Read Eclipse of Hope and Mephiston: Lord of the Death he does some insane feats that are not just limited to his physical prowess. He's every bit the skilled psyker that Tigrius is--but his will and control over the warp is emphasized throughout. He's not a regular psker or Librarian.
His words.
Spoiler:
"The Warp is mine. Destruction is mine. I am the Lord of Death, and I hold illimitable domination"
Thesanguinesword wrote:Mephiston is the most power psyker ever to live ( besides the emporor and the primarchs) 'nuff said
2. The smurf's tigurius is no where near the power of most other chapters chief librarians he's just ok at predicting stuff.
Malcador the Sigilite, Eldrad Ulthran, Ahriman and Kairos Fateweaver would like a word with you.
Draigo, Nurgle, Tzeentch, Slaneesh and I'm going to assume Gork and Mork too. Mephiston is a peon on the psychic scale when you start busting out the big dogs.
Why isn't Dak'ir on that list? He's hilariously overpowered compared to all of those on that list, considering he had the whole Salamanders chapter scared that he was a planet buster (which he was).
Probably because no one knows who he is. It is the lot of Black Library characters to falter in terms of recognition compared to their Codex Counterparts.
Just because he's now considered a traitor, has been kicked out by his primarch, and is now bouncing around the universe raiding museums and such doesn't mean he's not still a Librarian. 
