Surtur wrote:Seriously, Draigo wing is the least impressive list that army can run. They only have 5++.

azazel the cat wrote:My Necrons would absolutely EAT that list up. The two units of Deathmarks + Despair Cryptek alone would end the game in a hurry, never mind the Heavy/Destroyer wings and Lanceteks.

apple1988218 wrote:IMO, the easiest way to defeat OP's friend with crowe wing is use 60putifiers with 24 psycannons and full psybolt upgrade.

What you need to do is stay there and shoot....96 S7AP4rending and 72 S5 AP5 will give FNP paladins about 9.8 unsaved wounds per turn







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azazel the cat wrote:My Necrons would absolutely EAT that list up. The two units of Deathmarks + Despair Cryptek alone would end the game in a hurry, never mind the Heavy/Destroyer wings and Lanceteks.

They don't afraid of Deathmarks + Despair Cryptek, S8(LD) AP1 can only give them little damages----cover about 4 or 5 targets, 4 or 5 wounds, 3 or 4 unsaved wounds, and nobody killed.

Mass lanceteks is the true answer I think


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Try this list:

HQ
Crowe 150

Troop
10Purifier, 2hammer, 4 psybolt, psybolt 310
10Purifier, 2hammer, 4 psybolt, psybolt 310
10Purifier, 2hammer, 4 psybolt, psybolt 310
10Purifier, 2hammer, 4 psybolt, psybolt 310
10Purifier, 1hammer, 4 psybolt, psybolt 305
10Purifier, 1hammer, 4 psybolt, psybolt 305
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Not a good list when facing other player, but it can easily defeat OP's friend

Massaen wrote:Remember the MSM from the SR do very little to GK units, simply causing multiple PotW to one model.

I ran a 1500 draigo wing at an event and went 4-0-0 with it... Draigo, 2x5 paladins, vindicare, storm raven, dread knight - the army works at low levels just fine

necron99 wrote:OP here. In last night's game I ran the following 1850 list:

Crowe
2x Storm Ravens, TL MM, TL PC and Mindstrike Missiles
3x Purifiers, 1xhammer, 2xpsycannon, 2xhalbreds, rhino w/sl & db
3x rifledread
1x Termies, Thawn, 2xhalbreds, 1xhammer, 1xsword (deep strikes near the objective)

I've been switching my list around a lot the past couple of weeks seeing what works well, etc. Not always Crowe - never a draigowing. In last nights game I stupidly didn't think to unload my SR's into his draigowing (they were busy blasting his 10 man termie unit). I would think plasma cannons and mindstrike missiles would cause all kinds of pain from across the board.

The other issue I have is my friend won't play less than 2k games because he loves his draigowing. The GW store where we play is only open until 8pm and we don't get started until 6pm so we usually only get two or three full turns in before being told to pack up at 7:45. Normally his Draigowing shows up turn two and chases down one of my 5 man purifier units - then we have to call it for the night.

I like the idea of tank shocking him. I don't think I have enough rhinos to pull it off in the above list. I could drop the SR's and pick up two more rhinos, though. Can skimmers tank shock? I think it would be hilarious to have him fail and escort close to 3/4 of his army off the table with a single rhino.

Panzerboy26 wrote:My Mech-Guard would love to fight a Draigo list like that. I've got 9 TL Lascannons, 2 Demolisher Cannons, and 21 Meltas/Multi-Meltas, and that's just the things that pick up whole paladins per shot. 5 Plasma Cannon templates, plus plethora's of Autocannons, Hvy. Bolters, and Multi-Lasers.

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:

Panzerboy26 wrote:My Mech-Guard would love to fight a Draigo list like that. I've got 9 TL Lascannons, 2 Demolisher Cannons, and 21 Meltas/Multi-Meltas, and that's just the things that pick up whole paladins per shot. 5 Plasma Cannon templates, plus plethora's of Autocannons, Hvy. Bolters, and Multi-Lasers.

You best Pray that there isn't any ruins in his or her deployment area.......2+ cover save is hell

Draigo wrote:First off I have never seen necrons eat anyone up lol The best way to beat draigo is just forcing them to make tons of saves . Put a few wounds on then let cf and psykout help a 10 man squad to finish the job assuming the die are your friends that game. But why would anyone run a purifier spam of 60 purifiers without transport? haha you beggin to die? If you didnt et to shoot first you would take massive casualties before firing a single shot. lol Draigowing is a sturdy army for now but they have issues with massive amounts of shots.. You will eventually began to fail even 2s and with such a low model count you will feel it.

Happygrunt wrote:I prefer vindicators to beat paladins, but then again, I always prefer vindicators to beat anything. S10 AP 2 kills them good.

apple1988218 wrote:
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Happygrunt wrote:I prefer vindicators to beat paladins, but then again, I always prefer vindicators to beat anything. S10 AP 2 kills them good.

If they DS to the map, vindicators are good to kill them.

If they deploy as a line on the map, no.

Draigo-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"...... big blaster= A1 or A2 in this situation, and Draigo will protect them from single S10 AP2 wound.

Happygrunt wrote:

apple1988218 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Happygrunt wrote:I prefer vindicators to beat paladins, but then again, I always prefer vindicators to beat anything. S10 AP 2 kills them good.

If they DS to the map, vindicators are good to kill them.

If they deploy as a line on the map, no.

Draigo-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"...... big blaster= A1 or A2 in this situation, and Draigo will protect them from single S10 AP2 wound.

Yes, but I have 2 large blasts, and I will get to keep firing as I back up because I am out of their charge range,

gardeth wrote:I know someone already mentioned DE, but its worth saying again. Any Draigo Wing list without 3+ dreads backing it up is meat to a fully mech, nightshielded DE list. I have only had 1 game go beyond turn 4 against a Draigo Wing list and thats because he reserved everything.

Draigo wrote:First off I have never seen necrons eat anyone up lol The best way to beat draigo is just forcing them to make tons of saves.

Devil Dog wrote:Vindicare

Vindicare

Vindicare

Devil Dog wrote:Here is my list for anti draigo.

Coteaz

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

10 jokearo weaponsmiths

Vindicare

Vindicare

Vindicare

Ok mainly joking, but that's 40 lascannon/multi melta/ heavy flamers.

And with the Vindicare you can take out three units every turn.

Draigo wrote:Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless.. 3 vindicares? Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol Even with venom spam making them make 100 +2 saves they will die lol 3 blasterborn venoms will wreck pallys. Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Draigo wrote:Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless. ... Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol ... Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Clearly this thread has people who are new or clueless.. 3 vindicares? Only spamming ap2.. lordy lol Even with venom spam making them make 100 +2 saves they will die lol 3 blasterborn venoms will wreck pallys. Silly prob a bunch of the gk are op crowd cause theyre clueless.

Statistically 9 Venoms firing 12 shots each at a fully wound allocated 10 man unit of Paladins with Apothecary will on average deal 3 wounds. So no, Poison weapons are not the way forward. However Blasterborn combined with Dark Lances are. Bear in mind though that you are probably contending with a 3 + cover save in most cases (thanks to the mandatory Librarian) so it's not necessarily a straightforward tabling. Would be rough on the Paladins though.

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

necron99 wrote:Hello fellow dakkanaughts!

I have a friend at my FLGS who plays a 2k Draigo list. Usually two units - Draigo, paladins and a librarian and a unit of ten terminators plus an optional unit like a dreadknight or a vindicare/techmarine. I play Grey Knights, too. Usually a crowe list with purifiers. Is there a 2k army out there that plays well against a Draigo list in your standard 40k missions?

Lukus83 wrote:DE are a tough match up, but I don't think poison has a lot to do with it. Massed blasters and Dark lances are what does the trick. Combined with the fact that these threats are all MSU and move quickly, Draigowing has a hard time eliminating these before they deal critical damage.

apple1988218 wrote:That's why we said that a "pure" Draigo wing is not a competitive list. They do need some back up, such as psyflemen, henchmen, gkss or purifiers...and sometimes a vehicle.

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

apple1988218 wrote:

Draigo wrote:First off I have never seen necrons eat anyone up lol The best way to beat draigo is just forcing them to make tons of saves . Put a few wounds on then let cf and psykout help a 10 man squad to finish the job assuming the die are your friends that game. But why would anyone run a purifier spam of 60 purifiers without transport? haha you beggin to die? If you didnt et to shoot first you would take massive casualties before firing a single shot. lol Draigowing is a sturdy army for now but they have issues with massive amounts of shots.. You will eventually began to fail even 2s and with such a low model count you will feel it.

Q:"But why would anyone run a purifier spam of 60 purifiers without transport?"
A: Just to defeat OP's friend XDXDXDXDXDXD
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've seen necrons eat a Draigo wing up.
1750 game
Game 1:
Draigo, libby and 10 paladins DS, killed 1 doomsday ark.

Stalker shoot TL gauss cannon, hit, marked, Draigo passed the save;
doomsday ark shoot the big gun, 10 wounds, Draigo lost 1 wound and 2 paladins killed.(with 3+ cover from the shrouding)
5 lancetek shoots, 5 wounds, Draigo passed the save and 2 paladins killed.
5 lancetek shoots, 5 wounds, Draigo lost 1 wound and 1 paladins killed.

next turn, the whole death star has been killed.

Game 2:
Draigo, libby and 10 paladins deploy on the table, move 6" and run first turn.
Necron player move 6" back and shoot, killed some paladins

repeat

3 turns after, Draigo and paladins gone.


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Happygrunt wrote:I prefer vindicators to beat paladins, but then again, I always prefer vindicators to beat anything. S10 AP 2 kills them good.

If they DS to the map, vindicators are good to kill them.

If they deploy as a line on the map, no.

Draigo-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"-Paladin-2"...... big blaster= A1 or A2 in this situation, and Draigo will protect them from single S10 AP2 wound.

Draigo wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

Then I want your math to come tell the die in my games they need to listen to you and I should easily crush that silly venom spam. I do not care what your math says. It does not do anything in the ACTUAL game. Unless you are using an online dice roller there is not math involved. There are dips in the terrain.. the board does not sit flat. The dice can bump into things. There is nothing your formula can do to account for these things. Thats why math uses variable and unknown values.

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

Blackmoor wrote:As the foremost Draigowing expert I will tell you that a well built Grey Knight army that is centered around 10 paladins is very formidable no matter what you are using against it.

Remember that even though all of these armies that people here are talking about have all these nice tools to kill paladins, they are killing whatever can kill them right back. So do not think that it will be all that easy to get rid of them. Of course if you play against bad players, like most of the people here who are offering insights, you can do almost anything and win.

Now as far at the OP answer goes you have the right tools to beat him. No, the answer is not to go out and buy a Dark Eldar or Necron army, but the hardest army for Paladins to beat is Grey Knights.

If you have stormravens (or land raiders) you are going to be faster than him and you can get the charge. Whoever assaults in a Grey Knight on Grey Knight game wins. The reason why is with psych out grenades you get to strike first. So take your mindstrike missiles and snipe his librarian and take it out with some perils of the warp tests. You do not want a psychic hood around blocking your psychic powers. You then assault him with 10 purifiers and a librarian. Do not use a lot of heavy weapons in your purifier squad because you will need to swing a lot of force weapons. Then your librarian casts Hammerhand and Might of Titans to crank you up to strength 6, and have at it! Then you cast force weapon from the purifier squad to insta-kill them. You are testing on LD8, so you have a good chance at getting it off (if there are any dreadnaughts nearby be sure to take them out or your force weapon test will be on LD5).

apple1988218 wrote:
There's only one risk: storm raven/LR can only give you about 12"+2"(base)+6orD6"(charge) range, that means if you can charge him, your vehicle was in 24" of your enemy last turn.
If he failed to destroy your vehicle, your win; if he destroyed your vehicle, it will become a shooting game----whoever move into 12" range first will be charged by his enemy.

But still, this is one of the best plans, and that's what I do when facing with another Draigo wing player. The only thing different is that I put Draigo and 5 paladins in the raven

Blackmoor wrote:

apple1988218 wrote:
There's only one risk: storm raven/LR can only give you about 12"+2"(base)+6orD6"(charge) range, that means if you can charge him, your vehicle was in 24" of your enemy last turn.
If he failed to destroy your vehicle, your win; if he destroyed your vehicle, it will become a shooting game----whoever move into 12" range first will be charged by his enemy.

But still, this is one of the best plans, and that's what I do when facing with another Draigo wing player. The only thing different is that I put Draigo and 5 paladins in the raven

Yes, you have to take one turn of shooting. You are moving fast so you get a 3+ save with the librarians shrouding.

With that protection they are pretty hard to kill.

Draigo wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:

Draigo wrote:I dont need benfit of your math I play pallys and purifiers. In over 30 games I find using a 10 block is hardly the norm. Since jy2's list came to dakka I always hear bout the dreaded 10 man bollocks but if you paid any mind to tournaments or the list section of dakka youd see 10 man blocks are hardly the norm for tournaments. Its too suseceptable to template and high power shooting.

Well you are suggesting that poison weapons do the job...my math proved that it really doesn't. Even if you lose the Apothecary you do 6 wounds...with 9 Venoms. That's pretty much all the transports a DE list can field and comes in at 585pts if they have the extra Splinter cannon. Not very efficient.

Templates vs a decent general are not really worrisome. 40mm bases and 2" coherency means 2 models will be hit on a perfect scatter roll. High Strength shooting does damage whether it's a 5 or 10 man unit. Paladins are Paladins. They will draw the high Strength shots.

Then I want your math to come tell the die in my games they need to listen to you and I should easily crush that silly venom spam. I do not care what your math says. It does not do anything in the ACTUAL game. Unless you are using an online dice roller there is not math involved. There are dips in the terrain.. the board does not sit flat. The dice can bump into things. There is nothing your formula can do to account for these things. Thats why math uses variable and unknown values.

Draigo wrote:Im hardly defensive. lol But none of your math matters in the game unless your exact numbers are plugged in. Telling someone venoms etc do not hurt a 10 block so they shouldnt do it is false since again 10 is not the common deal. So unless you know for sure you will even face pallys in such numbers its pointless. You are right it can give you a general idea though but math only holds sway in forums where people can control everything.

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

apple1988218 wrote:......Can some one tell me what is a "real" Draigo wing?

5paladins, 10paladins or 20paladins?

(soladin doesn't count)

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

I have never been particularly impressed with Draigo Wing. I have beaten the army four times (including a complete table) with my Fatecrusher Daemons, and one of the games was against a local
tournament champion player. Honestly, playing the army with Fatecrusher is kind of a joke, and not much of a challenge (even with Dark Excommunication in the mix).
I have also beaten it with my Chaos Space Marines, which is much more of a challenge.

Roboute wrote:

apple1988218 wrote:......Can some one tell me what is a "real" Draigo wing?

5paladins, 10paladins or 20paladins?

(soladin doesn't count)

I don't know if there's any hard-and-fast definition for a "real" Draigowing. I prefer to think of a pure or "real" Draigowing army as an army where the only infantry are Paladins, either 20 Paladins on foot or 10 Paladins in Stormravens or other transports. However, Blackmoor's army is certainly centered around Draigo and Paladins and still includes other infantry like GKSS and Interceptors.

I wouldn't call any army with less than 10 Paladins Draigowing, as the Paladins probably aren't the main focus of the army's battle plan.

apple1988218 wrote:How about Draigo+5paladins and Stormraven in a 1750 list?
795 pts, about 45% of the whole list.

Blackmoor wrote:When I say Draigowing I am not talking about an army made up only of paladins, but a grey knight army build around paladins.

So I do not see your fatecrusher list doing that well.

So let’s say that everything is in your favor. The bloodcrushers are not tied up all game in assault with a dreadnaught, that you have not deepstriked a mile away because of warp quake, and that the shooting of the paladins have not killed fateweaver, and that the paladins have not backed up for several turns and kept on shooting, and we will disregard you that you have to get within 12” to charge them so that means the paladins can charge first.

So let us pretend that all of those factors are not in play.

8 Bloodcrushers+2 Heralds of Khorne on Juggernautes+Fateweaver vs. Paladins+Draigo+Librarian
#1. First off Draigo gives the Paladins counter charge with grand strategy since you have no other plan than to charge.
#2. The librarian casts sanctuary so you have to take a dangerous terrain test so let’s assume 1 wound from that. Since you do not have grenades the paladins strike first.
#3. 10 Paladins with the brotherhood banner and counter attack have 40 attacks. With the re-roll from preferred enemy they will hit 30 times (they are both WS5).
#4. After hammerhand from the Librarian, Draigo and the squad they are strength 7 and wounding on 2+. So 30 attacks=25 wounds.
#5. Bloodcrushers have a 5+ inv save so 25 wounds=16.6 unsaved wounds.
#6. Fateweaver lets you re-roll their saves, so 16.6 saves=11.1 wounds+2 unsaved wounds that Draigo does =13 wounds. Plus the wound from dangerous terrain that is 7 bases, but you are wound allocated and let’s say that you only lose 6 bases.
#7. 2 bases swinging back= 8 attacks 4 will hit, 2.65 will wound and the staff eats one, and swords some others so 1.5 wounds.
#8. Each Herald of Khorne will do 1.1 wound against a 5+ inv save.
So you are looking at Paladins doing 13 wounds, and Bloodcrushers doing 3. That does not look too god for you.
So you are losing by a lot of wounds, and that does not include attacks against Draigo, and that all of your wounded models that have to take a leadership check or be insta-kill and all of the fearless wounds you will be taking.

Blackmoor wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

Draigo wrote:Bad players? So I take it you have played everyone here to make that claim?

How else could they have won so easily?

And I have played some of the best players in the country (US) with my Draigowing and they did not find it that easy to take out as the people on this thread are claiming.

I have never been particularly impressed with Draigo Wing. I have beaten the army four times (including a complete table) with my Fatecrusher Daemons, and one of the games was against a local
tournament champion player. Honestly, playing the army with Fatecrusher is kind of a joke, and not much of a challenge (even with Dark Excommunication in the mix).
I have also beaten it with my Chaos Space Marines, which is much more of a challenge.

When I say Draigowing I am not talking about an army made up only of paladins, but a grey knight army build around paladins.

So I do not see your fatecrusher list doing that well.

So let’s say that everything is in your favor. The bloodcrushers are not tied up all game in assault with a dreadnaught, that you have not deepstriked a mile away because of warp quake, and that the shooting of the paladins have not killed fateweaver, and that the paladins have not backed up for several turns and kept on shooting, and we will disregard you that you have to get within 12” to charge them so that means the paladins can charge first.

So let us pretend that all of those factors are not in play.

8 Bloodcrushers+2 Heralds of Khorne on Juggernautes+Fateweaver vs. Paladins+Draigo+Librarian
#1. First off Draigo gives the Paladins counter charge with grand strategy since you have no other plan than to charge.
#2. The librarian casts sanctuary so you have to take a dangerous terrain test so let’s assume 1 wound from that. Since you do not have grenades the paladins strike first.
#3. 10 Paladins with the brotherhood banner and counter attack have 40 attacks. With the re-roll from preferred enemy they will hit 30 times (they are both WS5).
#4. After hammerhand from the Librarian, Draigo and the squad they are strength 7 and wounding on 2+. So 30 attacks=25 wounds.
#5. Bloodcrushers have a 5+ inv save so 25 wounds=16.6 unsaved wounds.
#6. Fateweaver lets you re-roll their saves, so 16.6 saves=11.1 wounds+2 unsaved wounds that Draigo does =13 wounds. Plus the wound from dangerous terrain that is 7 bases, but you are wound allocated and let’s say that you only lose 6 bases.
#7. 2 bases swinging back= 8 attacks 4 will hit, 2.65 will wound and the staff eats one, and swords some others so 1.5 wounds.
#8. Each Herald of Khorne will do 1.1 wound against a 5+ inv save.
So you are looking at Paladins doing 13 wounds, and Bloodcrushers doing 3. That does not look too god for you.
So you are losing by a lot of wounds, and that does not include attacks against Draigo, and that all of your wounded models that have to take a leadership check or be insta-kill and all of the fearless wounds you will be taking.

Draigo wrote:How exactly does shield of blades make them not scoring?? Theyre troops with Draigo.

Blackmoor wrote:What does your full list look like at 2000 points?

Roboute wrote:Wait, NoArmorSave, if I'm reading this right, you just math hammered out an entire fight using real dice rolls instead of averages? What exactly does that accomplish? It's certainly not useless, but it's only one instance. It's like going through a whole bunch of time and effort for one point on a graph, when instead you could plot a whole curve. To be fair, without standard deviation an average roll is a single point as well, but it seems to me that the average roll would be much more informative than the specific instance. The average roll gives you an instance where luck is nonexistent, letting you adjust up or down to simulate a better or worse roll. Rolling a single test, you can always say, "But what if my luck was different next time?"

Also, while you did point out a few mistakes in Blackmoor's initial analysis (a few of which I mentioned as well), the scenario you've described is mind-bogglingly in favor of you.

So you run 24 Crushers. You've assumed a Turn 2 charge with 2 units of 8 Crushers and a Thirster. Ignoring the Thirster, which will get into CC thanks to wings, what makes you think you'll be able to get a multiassault off with 2 squads of 8 Crushers against his Paladin squad, on Turn 2 no less?

- Your 8-man units have a huge Deep Strike footprint. The more aggressive you get with your deployment, the greater chance that your units will mishap and not show up at all. So to get a turn 2 assault, you'll need to get lucky with both DS and run moves. This is ignoring the fact that (if I'm not mistaken) Blackmoor is still running a 10-man Interceptor squad which can combat squad and cover the pallies with warp quake.

- Paladins can move and shoot to full effectiveness. Crushers can't charge an enemy who starts their turn more than 12" away (not counting the possibility of failing a DT test). Unless he runs out of board, why wouldn't he move out of assault range on his turn? Every turn he kites you is more dead Crushers, Fateweaver or no. Or, more likely, it buys him time to kill the birdy. Every turn of shooting from 10 Pallies with 4 psycannons, psybolts, Draigo and a Libby will put 13-14 wounds on Fateweaver, of which he will fail 1 in 9, or 1.5ish failed saves a turn. That's about 2 turns of shooting, assuming he doesn't fail Ld and fly away.

- "If I sensed a major loss in positioning I would correct it with my Bloodthirster. He moves 12," and assaults 6", and loves to butcher Paladins." Really? Your solution would be to tie them up with a single model, who will die before the Crushers reach combat, probably in a single round? On average, the full squad plus characters would do 24 wounds to him, which is enough to kill him even assuming the 2++.

- If I were Blackmoor, I'd keep myself within charge range of one squad of Crushers, while staying away from the rest. This forces you to either attack him piecemeal, let him charge, or allow him to continue to kite you.

I haven't even touched on your actual combat numbers yet. I might math hammer it out, but not right now.

Crusaderobr wrote:Beating the 2k Draigo list is easy. I will just melta them with 3 full man Fire Dragon squads in Wave Serpents. GG. Of course ill support them with the rest of my army, but you get the idea of what will happen, I dont even need to post the list. Whoever plays that list should play a new game, Clay fighters for Sega Genesis would probably be a more constructive and suitable game for his/her skill level.

Massaen wrote:

Crusaderobr wrote:Beating the 2k Draigo list is easy. I will just melta them with 3 full man Fire Dragon squads in Wave Serpents. GG. Of course ill support them with the rest of my army, but you get the idea of what will happen, I dont even need to post the list. Whoever plays that list should play a new game, Clay fighters for Sega Genesis would probably be a more constructive and suitable game for his/her skill level.

Thats just rediculous - yes 10 fire dragons hurt paladins but if you think your going to get to shoot all 30 and table the army in 1 volley your sadly mistaken against any half decent player.
Your flame bait comment was not needed either.

I can guarantee your serpents carrying the dragons are target 1 for my storm ravens and once they are on the ground, dragons are so much psybait. Even if you down the SR i get a 3++ cover save thanks to shrouding...

10 shots is only 1.85 wounds after a 3++ save... and i can drop that on draigo and maybe loose a paladin. So after your 30 shots i may loose 3-4 paladins from my 10 plus 2 characters... and your guaranteed within 12"... draigo will kill one unit by himself...

Its by no means a sure thing like you think it is

NoArmorSave wrote:It is definetely not a sure thing. If the Fire Dragons are allowed to unload 30 Melta Shots onto the Paladin squad, there will not be much left of that Paladin squad, even with a 3++ save. There is a good chance it will be completely wiped out along with Draigo and
the Librarian, or just horribly gimped.

NoArmorSave wrote:Roboute,

Not to be rude, but I just love it when Grey Knight fan boyz are shocked to find out I can usually table their army with my Chaos Daemons. And I sincerely mean that, I have never lost to Grey Knights with my Chaos Daemons, not even close. And I play them all the time.
You would have to specifically tailor your Draigo Wing list to beat my Fatecrusher Daemons. I know, I have been in the trenches with both armies, and I know how it plays out. My sense is you (and Blackmoor) have never faced a skilled Chaos Daemon player running Fatecrusher. You can theory hammer things all you want, but when it ultimately comes down to it, Paladins can not handle large units of Bloodcrushers in close combat, especially when supported by a Blood Thirster with Blessing.

Stating things like I will just back up and shoot big bird, or throw my Psyriflemen at your Bloodcrushers, are mickey mouse tactics that reek of desperation. I know easy counters to all of these things, and when it ultimately comes down to it, the assault results between the Paladins and the Crusher deathstar is going to be the most signficant factor. The Paladins just aren't going to win that battle.

-666- wrote:@ NoArmorSave...

No one has mentioned the GK psychic power Dark Excommunication yet which completely nerfs both the greater daemon and Bloodcrushers. You say you have done well versus Draigowing - I believe you but that does not equate to FateCrusher spam > Draigowing. It could for simply be that your wins have come against less experienced players fielding suboptimal lists. I have played both armies extensively winning tournies with both and am of the opinion that a well designed Draigowing army has all of the advantages.

Roboute wrote:Ok, here we go.

Assumptions:
- 10x Paladins, including stave, banner, 2x swords and 6x halberds. Fully equipped for wound allocation. Draigo gives countercharge.
- Draigo
- Librarian with stave, no Dark Ex

- 2x8 Crushers, with Fury, Icon, Musician and 5x regular BCs
-Thirster with BotBG

Pregame:

- Before combat, libby casts Sanctuary. All Daemon units make their roll to enter CC (if they're all right at 6", not likely).
- Bloodcrushers suffer 1.19 unsaved wounds from dangerous terrain. Thirster has a 4% chance to suffer a wound, we'll ignore that.
- Hammerhand goes off 3 times, everyone is S7.
- Daemon players gets the BC into combat with the squad. Some Crushers are engaged with Draigo and the libby, but they'll be taken out first so we'll assume most of the surviving Crushers will get to smack on the paladins.

Paladins Attack Crushers:
36 NFW attacks, 27 hits, 22.5 wounds, 10 unsaved wounds after Inv re-roll
4 Banner attacks: 3 hits, 2.5 wounds, 0.28 unsaved wounds after armor re-roll
Draigo 4 attacks, 3.3 hits, 2.7 wounds, 1.2 unsaved wounds after Inv re-roll
Libby 2 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.25 wounds, 0.56 wounds after Inv re-roll

12.04 wounds on the Crushers, 13.23 wounds with the dangerous terrain factored in

Total combat res against Daemons: 12

To be very generous, these are split evenly (6 and 7) between the squads and allocated perfectly. Three crushers are dead (one and two), and seven Crushers are wounded. The Crushers take 7 Daemonbane tests at Ld10, and they have a 58% chance of failing at least one. Since we were so generous before, we'll assume that one more Crusher dies, leaving 12 to attack back, along with the Bloodthirster. We'll be generous again and assume that the dead Crushers were mainly taken from those attacking Draigo and the Libby, leaving only one Crusher each engaged with these two. This leaves 10 Crushers to smack on the Paladins.

Daemons counterattack. Since these are all at Initiative 1, they'll be allocated in one huge batch.

Thirster 6 attacks, 4 hits, 3.33 ID wounds
10 Crushers on Paladins 40 attacks, 20 hits, 16.67 wounds

Allocation time! 20 wounds, including 3 ID wounds, all one batch here.

Stave takes 2 ID wounds, 0.33 unsaved wounds
A Sword takes 1 ID wound and 1 wound, 1.5 unsaved wounds (including the chance for the ID wound to double)
The other sword takes 2 wounds, 1 unsaved wound
Banner takes 2 wounds, 1.33 unsaved wounds
6 paladins remaining take 2 wounds each, 8 unsaved wounds and about 2 dead paladins (each paladin has a 2/3 chance to make at least one save)

1 Crusher on Draigo 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.33 wounds, 0.44 unsaved wounds
1 Crusher on Libby 4 attacks, 2 hits, 1.67 wounds, 0.28 unsaved wounds

Total combat res against Paladins: 8.72

The Results:

- Paladins win combat by 3, probably. Each Daemon unit takes 3 armor saves, with a 1/3 chance of failing one, with the re-roll. So between all three squads, there will probably be one more wound caused thanks to No Retreat! We'll assume it's on the Thirster since that won't have any effect on the next combat.

- Paladins lost 3-4 models, probably, although this will vary greatly and requires complicated statistics and distributions to chart properly. They'll be attacking back next round with 21-ish attacks, plus Draigo and the Libby. There's a 1/3 chance that the banner died, reducing them to a paltry 14 attacks. there's a 1/3 chance that the stave died, leaving them unable to reliably soak wounds from the Thirster. Regardless, most of their wound allocation is probably used up, meaning further wounds will have a greater effect on them.

- Daemons lost 4 models, conservatively, but all of their wound allocation is used up. Further wounds will have a greater effect on them. They'll be attacking back next round with 36 attacks, plus the Thirster. These are only S5 now, so they won't wound as easily.

- Next turn is the GK player's turn, and he'll be using Quicksilver to once again hit first with everyone. His units will again be S7. I don't feel like doing a whole second round of math, but I'm guessing that the GKs' ability to strike first will result in more Crushers dying and then more Paladins dying. Even lower numbers of Crushers are nasty.

Conclusion:
Yeah, Bloodcrushers are nasty. Fateweaver re-rolls make them way nastier. If you give them optimal conditions (and these are really, truly optimal conditions), then it will be a bloodbath on both sides. The combat will be drawn out, allowing for counter charges on both sides, and creating more room for luck to play into things. What does this mean? No side has a clear statistical advantage in this particular match-up, and it will come down to generalship.

Against Blackmoor, I wouldn't count on these optimal conditions. Without this particular 3-unit combi-charge, the Paladins can really put a hurting on the Daemon player again and again with few casualties. I'd place my money on the Draigowing army in this situation. However, IMO that's because a 24-Crusher army isn't the optimal Fatecrusher list, and is more of a noobhammer that hard counters a bunch of lists than a true TAC list.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

NoArmorSave wrote:Roboute,

Not to be rude, but I just love it when Grey Knight fan boyz are shocked to find out I can usually table their army with my Chaos Daemons. And I sincerely mean that, I have never lost to Grey Knights with my Chaos Daemons, not even close. And I play them all the time.
You would have to specifically tailor your Draigo Wing list to beat my Fatecrusher Daemons. I know, I have been in the trenches with both armies, and I know how it plays out. My sense is you (and Blackmoor) have never faced a skilled Chaos Daemon player running Fatecrusher. You can theory hammer things all you want, but when it ultimately comes down to it, Paladins can not handle large units of Bloodcrushers in close combat, especially when supported by a Blood Thirster with Blessing.

Stating things like I will just back up and shoot big bird, or throw my Psyriflemen at your Bloodcrushers, are mickey mouse tactics that reek of desperation. I know easy counters to all of these things, and when it ultimately comes down to it, the assault results between the Paladins and the Crusher deathstar is going to be the most signficant factor. The Paladins just aren't going to win that battle.

NoArmorSave,

Not to be rude, but it's easy to be a big fish in a small pond. There are a lot of Grey Knight fan boyz out there who bring their shiny Paladins and don't know how to play them. I wouldn't be surprised at all to watch you table 9/10ths of Draigowing players out there. But that's because there are a lot of them, and they aren't very good. Grey Knights are a popular army and have a lot of forgiving choices in their list. I'd place myself into that category, because I don't have enough firsthand experience with my Draigowing army to be truly competitive.

Blackmoor is different. He hasn't just played all his local GK scrubs and won a few local tourneys. He plays across the country in the most competitive environments possible. His list also plays to the strength of the entire GK codex, using supporting units like Interceptors to complement his deathstar. Your list might fare differently against an opponent of equal or better caliber generalship.

"Stating things like I will just back up and shoot big bird, or throw my Psyriflemen at your Bloodcrushers, are mickey mouse tactics that reek of desperation. I know easy counters to all of these things, and when it ultimately comes down to it, the assault results between the Paladins and the Crusher deathstar is going to be the most signficant factor. The Paladins just aren't going to win that battle."

And stating things like I will get a turn 2 assault on your Paladins with multiple Crusher units and my Thirster isn't a naive assumption to make against an opponent of Blackmoor's caliber? What are these easy counters you speak of? You're doing a lot of "no, you're wrong" without a lot of "this is why it won't work." Because you really, really need that multiple assault to even survive to strike back against a full paladin deathstar. And this isn't even taking the rest of both armies into account. Your 2 HQs and the 2 Crusher units we've been working with cost about as much as a Draigostar. How do the rest of both armies handle themselves?

I'm not saying that your list will fail against Draigowing. It's a strong list that has massive durability from spamming tough units. I'm just saying it's foolish to dismiss an army like Blackmoor's Draigowing out of hand.

NoArmorSave wrote:Roboute,

I don't completely agree with your assault example above. It will be a bloodbath on both sides, but the Crushers will come out on top most of the time if the Chaos Daemon player knows what he is doing.

Secondly, I at no time, dismissed Draigo Wing as an army, or said that Blackmoor is a bad player. I think Draigo Wing is a very good army, and I like playing against it. This is a thread about how to beat Draigo Wing, and what it's weaknesses are.
Fatecrusher is a big achilles heal for Draigo Wing; you can choose to accept\believe that or not.

On the subject of Blackmoor; I am sure he is a skilled, competitive, tournament player. I would absolutely love to play against him with my Fatecrusher Daemons. I guarantee you there would be some of the ugliest assaults in the history of the 40K game occurring on the table. I am sure we would both give each other pure hell.

rigeld2 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:It is definetely not a sure thing. If the Fire Dragons are allowed to unload 30 Melta Shots onto the Paladin squad, there will not be much left of that Paladin squad, even with a 3++ save. There is a good chance it will be completely wiped out along with Draigo and
the Librarian, or just horribly gimped.

You might want to re-think that.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/418342.page

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:Roboute,

I don't completely agree with your assault example above. It will be a bloodbath on both sides, but the Crushers will come out on top most of the time if the Chaos Daemon player knows what he is doing.

Secondly, I at no time, dismissed Draigo Wing as an army, or said that Blackmoor is a bad player. I think Draigo Wing is a very good army, and I like playing against it. This is a thread about how to beat Draigo Wing, and what it's weaknesses are.
Fatecrusher is a big achilles heal for Draigo Wing; you can choose to accept\believe that or not.

On the subject of Blackmoor; I am sure he is a skilled, competitive, tournament player. I would absolutely love to play against him with my Fatecrusher Daemons. I guarantee you there would be some of the ugliest assaults in the history of the 40K game occurring on the table. I am sure we would both give each other pure hell.

I might do some more math tomorrow morning and find out who would win in successive rounds of the assault I math hammered. If you have any specific criticisms on my math hammer (beyond who would win if the combat continued), I'd be happy to hear them. In many ways, there is just too much variability given wound allocation and other factors for my non-math-major skills to handle.

I agree that Fatecrusher is an uphill matchup for Draigowing, but I would hesitate to call it an achilles heel, at least when you compare players and lists of similar strength. You've made a lot of assertions to the tune of "Crushers would definitely win," and I have no doubt this is based on extensive personal experience. It's nice, however, to hear you admit you don't know what would happen against a skilled tournament-honed Draigowing player. It seemed at first that you were being arrogant, and I have a tendency to play devil's advocate when I feel that someone isn't giving the other side of the argument a fair shake. Make no mistake, I would be scared to face your 24-Crusher army no matter what I brought to the table.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:What does your full list look like at 2000 points?

You first.

Blackmoor wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:What does your full list look like at 2000 points?

You first.

You can find my lists all over the place. Here is the list I used to win the Wild West Shootout a couple of weeks ago:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/422339.page

My Draigowing List
HQ
Draigo
Librarian w/Warding Staff, Shrouding, Might of Titians, Sanctuary, 2 Servo Skulls

Troops
10 Paladins w/3 Psycannons, Master Crafted Psycannon, Warding Stave, 2 Swords, 2 Demonhammers, 3 Halberds, Master Crafted Halberd, Brotherhood Banner

5 Grey Knight Strike Squad w/Psycannon

Fast Attack
9 Interceptors w/2 Psycannons
Justicar w/MC Demonhammer

Heavy Support
3 Dreadnaughts w/2 Autocannons, Psybolt ammo

Here is why I wanted to see your list:
24 Bloodcrushers (plus Bloodthirster and Fateweaver) are over 1600 points compared to Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins that are around 1170 points. You do not have much in the way of troops.
So you need to have a bunch of cheap crappy units (plaguebearers?) that my dreads can just gun down.
Also you have to split your army in two. I hope you have enough troops or you will have to leave a unit or 2 of bloodcrushers behind.
Also you have a 33% chance of getting the wrong wave in. If that happens, it is open season on your troops until the heavy hitters trickle on a few units a turn (That would be bad for you). So in essence you have a 33% chance of losing the game right from the beginning.
If you do get your preferred wave, you can scatter all over the place. You have a huge footprint so you have to keep a large distance from your other units. If you have a unit that ends up being outside of fateweavers bubble (and there is a good change that might happen even with your run rolls) I could shoot it and do about 10 wounds with everything except the Strike Squad even with your 3+ save and T5.
If you have a unit that is even close to me that is even slightly misplaced, I will assault it, and your pile in move will pull you out of fateweavers range, and it will be wiped out. Then your can counter aassault and the battle will end up like Roboute's example.
Even in his example. the size and placings of models are going to be so hard that I do not see all of them being able to attack. You have 14 of those giant 60mm bases and your placing will be difficult to get them all in to assault. Also if you slip up and leave a unit out of Fateweaver's range it will be killed. Then while the giant assault is being resolved my interceptors will be either running around killing things (like your tropps or fateweaver) or counter attacking to do a lot more wounds.

It is entertaining to think of what could happen if Fateweaver was there, but what would really happen is that I will have my whole army shoot at Fateweaver the turn he lands. He is critical to your army and it's linchpin.
Paladins shooting vs. Fateweaver=1.5 wounds
Interceptors shooting at Fateweaver= .83 wounds (1.18 wounds stationary)
Each Dread shooting at Fateweaver=.32 wounds
Shooting at Fateweaver the turn he lands I should do 3.29 wounds to him, and then after he is dead I will pick your army apart.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Well, if you don't want to go out and buy a DE army, you can just max out your GK cheap vehicles (rhinos) with cheap minsized squads--even take a henchman army if you have the models--and tank shock him over and over again until he breaks and runs.

Others have mentioned it as a last resort, but I use tank shock as my primary offensive tactic with Eldar and IG against paladin units with FNP, especially if Draigo is in there too. It's not worth the trouble of trying to shoot them when you can just chase them off the board.

Before ten people who don't understand the tank shock rules jump in with the usual mistakes, here's the technique:

-Only models you run over can make a death or glory attack, so don't run over anybody with a daemon hammer and you're safe from that.
-If you tank shock a unit that's already falling back, they fall back again immediately automatically with no chance to rally. So you don't have to wait around for them to go off the board--just hit a falling back unit again, and you can chase them all the way off in a single turn.

The odds of a Ld9 unit failing a leadership test are about 9%, about 6% for the Ld10 unit. So throw out five or six tank shocks--or even ten--per turn, and you can table him in a couple of turns without causing a single casualty.

Also tankshocking your opponent off the table a couple times will tend to encourage the Draigowing player to think about a more balanced list.

-666- wrote:@ NAS...

I don't see how Dark Excommunication isn't going to majorly factor into the game plus it's not something you as a player have any say over whether or not your opponent can take... Greater daemon and Crushers no longer ignore armor saves plus it negates BotBG... Bottom line Crushers die quickly to Draigowing in melee when hit with Dark Exommumication... It is a major effect not a minor one. Statements like that just make me have to wonder how realistic is what you're saying. One major weakneses of daemons in general is when the player suffers from poor rseserve rolls which you've ignored. It does happen from time to time.

NoArmorSave wrote:"Also you have a 33% chance of getting the wrong wave in. If that happens, it is open season on your troops until the heavy hitters trickle on a few units a turn (That would be bad for you). So in essence you have a 33% chance of losing the game right from the beginning. "

NO. You don't understand the army. There is no "wrong" wave. There is wave 1 and wave 2. The competent Daemon general will balance each wave so that each one can function on it's own. In the last 2000 point tournament I played at, I got wave 2 in 2 of my 3 games (rolled a 1 or 2). I still easily won each game.

Clauss wrote:This thread in hilarious.
Blackmoor, just play him on vassal and destroy him. I play daemons competitively, or at least I like to think so. Sadly i have yet to see anyone brave/ingenious/stupid enough to field 24 bloodcrushers/fateweaver/bloodthirster+blessing. Simply because of a few reason, it costs 1668. So lets say its a 2k list. you now have 332 points. 150 at least much be troops. so 2 5 man squads of beares. Thus you have 182 points. Which could be a prince..some seekers for speed, some hounds for blessing plus speed. Or you go more small troops. So we will assume 1-2 more choices in your list.
Thus your list is some iteration of:
fateweaver
bloodthirster
8 crusher+upgrades
8 crusher+upgrades
8 crusher+upgrades
5 plagues
5 plagues
10 seekers/hounds(last 182 points)
8 kps, all hard to get. cool

Now, the reason you dont see this, is because any GT dark eldar player who can copy an internet list, will evade you with skimmers. and pussyfoot around while not getting out of his vehicles. No good DE player will let you catch him. Since DE are popular, you dont have a chance of winning the GT now. Now if you play mechdar, same situation, less shots. You still lose. I am not saying this because of your ability to play, nor your ability to analyze a situation. But I have been there, i have played these games, and seen what an equal general with a better army will do. DE and mechdar are only one example of this.

I played my daemons at the nova invitational. I played a GK player in the 4th round, his army had strike squads, and absurd amounts of str7 and str8 shooting. he warp quaked about half the board with first turn, and moved up. I could barely deep strike on the board, please tell me how you would defeat a warp quaked table full of str7/8 shooting that wiped any squad I had when it went down, IF any squad could go down. yes your squads are larger and tougher, but yours is slower and has a larger footprint. you will lose, you will lose badly. trust me, i want daemons to work as well as anyone else. But it wont against real players like those I faced at the nova invitational.

In all seriousness you most likely are a big fish in a small pond, but trust me. Go face a good grey knights players who has played hundreds of games in GTs like Nick N and blackmoor. you will lose.

-666- wrote:A good player is not going to let you multi charge their brick of Paladins with 2-3 units of Bloodcrushers... so really it only has to work versus one unit.

Crusaderobr wrote:Im gonna have to agree with NoArmorSave here, this thread is filled with dumb fanboys who clearly cant believe that their "incredible" Draigo Wing list can be beaten. When they start talking about other armies and your particular armies weakness to them instead of Draigo Wing you know they are not logical poeple, and that they are now just blatantly trolling. This thread is hilarious and has no tactical value and doesn't deserve to be on Dakka except for entertainment value /popcorn.

That Eldar battle report was hilarious. Not only was his list horrible with the exception of Eldrad and the 3 Fire Dragons squads in Waveserpents, but he proved to not be one of the best general's out there. That battle report doesn't prove anything, except what happens when the Dice Gods have blessed a Grey Knight army in a game ( he got really lucky ).

-666- wrote:@ NAS

The thing you have not by any means shown that FateCrusher > Draigowing... it is just in your mind... and that is fine... just don't expect all of us to buy it. But do go on.

-666- wrote:I'm reluctant at times to believe people I don't know on the Internet. If he said he won most of the time then to me that would go a lot further towards credibility.

Hyd wrote:If you're fielding a Stormraven, you can also throw them a few Mindstrike missiles before going for the kill, ideally aiming at the libby. With him gone you'll have disabled their psychic defense, which will be instrumental in ensuring your own Hammerhands pass.

-666- wrote:There are only two armies that can field Stormravens-only gk get the msm... Mirror match advice I don't think is that helpful since typically getting the charge and activating NFW gets the job done.

Hyd wrote:If you're fielding a Stormraven, you can also throw them a few Mindstrike missiles before going for the kill, ideally aiming at the libby. With him gone you'll have disabled their psychic defense, which will be instrumental in ensuring your own Hammerhands pass.

Roboute wrote:Aaaaand segue back to on-topic ....

I did enjoy the suggestion of a Vindicare to snipe away Draigo's 3++ save. This would be particularly important for a Purifier list, because damage would be greatly increased if Draigo can't just tank the one or two psycannon rends from each squad.

Also, as I have in other GK threads, I will shamelessly pimp the Stormraven deathstar as the Purifiers' counter to Draigowing deathstars. While perhaps not the best unit in a TAC list, a Stormraven filled with a LIbrarian, Techmarine with nades and 9 Purifiers with halberds will be able to survive incoming fire with a 3+ cover save and then deliver a heaping helping of smackdown into the Paladins' lap. If you can flat-out your SR into the sweet spot (more than 12" but less than 15" away), you'll have a guaranteed assault next turn if the SR stays mobile. Rad grenades make the Paladins T3 against the Purifiers' S6 or S7, which means they can ID them with impunity. The Purifiers will probably die horribly to the return attacks of Draigo, the Libby and the stave wielder, of course, but they can alpha strike the heck out of the Paladins first, and your deathstar costs half as much as his does.

If you wanted to stray into Henchmen territory, that same Stormraven can be just as effective for even fewer points by filling it with a mix of DCAs and Crusaders. Supported by a Techmarine and Librarian (or Inquisitor if you're feeling cheap), this squad can also achieve ID with S6 vs. T3. Paladins don't like ID. With an Inquisitor, you can get this unit down to just a little over 500 points, giving you enough room to fill the rest of your army out to counter his support units.

Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar. GKs all have assault grenades, so Sanctuary won't impede them, and they have the nade cheese to ID the Paladins, which is huge. It does suffer from the "eggs in one basket" syndrome, but the eggs are in a fairly tough basket in this case.

necron99 wrote:Yep, yep, yep...I tried this on Mephiston Lord of Cheese last week. 4 missiles from two storm ravens causing perils do the trick (I don't recall how many it actually took - I know I had some scattering going on but the way I fly my storm chickens, flat out, they only get to fire one weapon per turn anyway).

A question came up at that game though. I can fire all four missiles in one turn right? I didn't think I would ever want to do that until Meph came along...he was the only psyker threat in a blood angel army I played against.

NoArmorSave wrote:

"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

NoArmorSave wrote:"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

BeRzErKeR wrote:I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit.

Firstly, I am indeed list tailoring here, because the OP runs a GK list and asked how to beat Draigowing. I did qualify the SR deathstar as not a good choice for a TAC list, not sure what you're trying to do by pointing it out again.

Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step.




Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4, failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

NoArmorSave wrote: Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

NoArmorSave wrote:after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power.

NoArmorSave wrote:It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

"Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit. "

No, I didn't ignore you. I told you, no more Fatecrusher Vs. Draigo Wing discussion in this thread. You choose to continue down that path, and I consider it rude and a waste of the OP's contribution at this point.

"Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step."
"On average, about 6 Paladins will die. "
Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

I think it is a nasty Deathstar (not nearly in the same tier as a Paladin Death Star). My main problem with the list is the Stormraven. I just question it's value and point cost, and believe there are much better ways to play Purifiers.
IMO; the best Purifier focused GK lists, run Purifiers in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Think MSU spam.

If your local Meta has a bunch of Draigo Wing players, it may be worth testing to see how it goes. I think the list could be very effective in a lot of cases, but is not optimal for Purifiers.

Besides the Purifier\Techmarine\Stormraven Death Star, what would the rest of the list look like @ 2000 points?

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

"Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit. "

No, I didn't ignore you. I told you, no more Fatecrusher Vs. Draigo Wing discussion in this thread. You choose to continue down that path, and I consider it rude and a waste of the OP's contribution at this point.

"Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step."
"On average, about 6 Paladins will die. "
Isn't that what I said? You are probably going to kill 5-6 Paladins on your initial assault, IF the Paladin Librarian does not have Quicksilver. If the Paladin Librarian has Quicksilver, this whole strategy goes straight into the toilet.

I think it is a nasty Deathstar (not nearly in the same tier as a Paladin Death Star). My main problem with the list is the Stormraven. I just question it's value and point cost, and believe there are much better ways to play Purifiers.
IMO; the best Purifier focused GK lists, run Purifiers in Rhinos and Razorbacks. Think MSU spam.

If your local Meta has a bunch of Draigo Wing players, it may be worth testing to see how it goes. I think the list could be very effective in a lot of cases, but is not optimal for Purifiers.

Besides the Purifier\Techmarine\Stormraven Death Star, what would the rest of the list look like @ 2000 points?

No, that's not what you said. You said that they would kill 5-6 Paladins, and then die. That is definitely not what would happen. They would kill 6 Paladins, then lose half the squad, then the Paladins would take a Ld test at a huge penalty and run away, possibly off the board if that SR is still functioning next turn. There is a giant difference between those two outcomes.

Your comment about Quicksilver - firstly, the Librarian will be sniped by mindstrike missiles, secondly, Quicksilver only works on the owning player's turn. So it doesn't make any difference whatsoever.

We agree that it's a nasty deathstar, and the whole point that it can take on Paladins without being in the same tier as them. We also agree that the SR isn't a super-optimal choice for Purifiers, although I tend to give the SR more credit because I enjoy the mobility and threat range it provides.

As far as the rest of the list, it would probably contain all the staples of an MSU Purifier build - Purifiers in Rhinos or Psybacks, Psyfleman Dreads, Crowe (a bonus for taking the SR is you can still take a transport for the Purifier squad in it, and Crowe can hop in that Rhino or Psyback). Interceptors would also probably feature, sprinkle to taste with stuff like a Vindicare, depending on how competitive you want to get. The key would be to stuff as much firepower as possible into the rest of the list, so that they can clean up everyone but the Paladins in short order. In all honesty, even if Draigo is still kicking around after you've thrown the SR-star at him, you can just toss Crowe in there and watch them both get picked right up off the table.

NoArmorSave wrote:Fair enough, but don't count those Paladins as out just because they lost that initial assault. If they are able to recover, likely due to other supporting units nearby, they will be a major problem.

" firstly, the Librarian will be sniped by mindstrike missiles, secondly, Quicksilver only works on the owning player's turn. So it doesn't make any difference whatsoever."

How are you going to deal with Shrouding? Unless this has been FAQ'd in some way, Perils of the Warp from the Mindstrikes will each cause a power weapon wound. The Librarian would still be able to take his 3++, and will likely suffer 1 wound after
he re-rolls it (if all 4 hit). You may snipe him, but it is far from certain.

I would actually like to see a final proposed list. A play with a few people that have large collections of Grey Knights. I may just do some playtesting on my own.

Draigo wrote:Quicksilver is moot in the discussion between purifiers vs draigo.. Its done in the movement phase and psyk out says buh bye power if a libby doesnt shut it down of course. Sheesh experts think they know everything lol

Also why are people mentioning TAC lists? lol He said hes tailoring.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Draigo wrote:Quicksilver is moot in the discussion between purifiers vs draigo.. Its done in the movement phase and psyk out says buh bye power if a libby doesnt shut it down of course. Sheesh experts think they know everything lol

Also why are people mentioning TAC lists? lol He said hes tailoring.

No, Quicksilver is not a moot point. If the Purifiers fail to snipe the Librarian, and fail to assault first (more possible than you think), it will become a very big point.
Also, Psyk-out grenades only work when launching an assault. I know the Purifiers are counting on being able to use the Storm Raven for an Alpha Strike, but things
don't always go as planned. 3x Psyriflemen Dreads focused on the single Storm Raven will get thru the 3++ much easier than you think. Once that aspect of this build
is neutralized, the army is done.

"Sheesh experts think they know everything lol"

Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:"Come to think of it, this one unit works far more efficiently than Bloodcrushers against a Draigo deathstar."

Your Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike, after that, they are going to disintegrate. They will not survive the return blows, and have no staying power. If they kill 6 Paladins, that still leaves Draigo,Librarian, and 4 other Paladins
to roll you up with. You would need 2 of these death stars to ensure the demise of Draigo\Other IC\10 Paladin death star.

Huge units of Bloodcrushers can do a similar amount of damage on their initial charge, especially when supported by a Bloodthister. They will not evaporate and fold like paper machete when the Paladins swing at them. They will most likely
completely overpower the Paladins in assault, and have enough models left to bring on more pain.

Additionally, you are list tailoring here. This build would be mediocre at best, as an all comers list. What really adds a lot of value to this discussion, are balanced all comer's lists that can compete with Draigo Wing.

Oookay. So you're going to ignore the last couple posts I sent your way in favor of picking on this particular bit.

Firstly, I am indeed list tailoring here, because the OP runs a GK list and asked how to beat Draigowing. I did qualify the SR deathstar as not a good choice for a TAC list, not sure what you're trying to do by pointing it out again.

Your statement that the Purifiers will likely kill 5-6 Paladins on the Alpha strike then die tells me one of two things: either you didn't read my post, or you aren't very familiar with the GK codex. If all you do is stomp on them, I could understand not being too familiar with their intricacies, so I'll assume it's the latter and give you a step by step.




Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

The Techmarine strikes simultaneously with the Paladins, using his two servo-arms. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, probably allocated on the stave, giving the stave paladin a total 50%-ish chance of dying. We'll assume he lives.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4 (assuming difference of 6), failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.

Edit: Forgot about the servo arm attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeRzErKeR wrote:I've never played as GK, but I'm curious; why would the unit be mediocre? It's a unit with Initiative 6 NFW attacks for MEQs and multi-wound models, Cleansing Flame for hordes, GK Librarian Psychic powers, and rad grenades, in a tough, Fast transport. What makes it bad? It might not be QUITE as scary as Paladins are, but it doesn't sound like a particularly weak unit by any means. I can't think of an Ork unit that I would toss at it confident of winning, besides Ghazghkull.

It is indeed very scary in assault, but that can be a downside. It has a high probability of wiping most units in one turn, leaving the squad very exposed to ranged attacks. It also isn't nearly as tough against return attacks - they're just Space Marines, as far as durability goes. The Stormraven is a very tough vehicle with AV12 and a 3+ flat-out cover save, but all it takes is one lucky shot to down the bird. There are armies that can deal with this unit at range, and there are armies that don't have a deathstar for this unit to hunt, which means you're wasting a lot of points. All in all, it's a very strong unit, but its limited applications make it a poor choice for super-competitive TAC lists.

NoArmorSave wrote:Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

Jihallah wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:Sheesh, Warhammer Fantasy players think they know how to play 40K. I have said it for a long time; playing Fantasy degrades the skill level of 40K players.

Whilst I agree with what NAS is saying, things like this do not help. Try toning down the mightier-than-thou rude attitude and there might be a whole lot less flamebaiting/borderline trolloling here

Clauss wrote:So to counter Draigowing..has anyone considered IG psyker squads+ tank shock...I feel that like would be auto win. Even just 2 squads of them would ensure you would get the cast off with the superior range. use chimeras to tank shock..reduce leadership.
GG? weaken resolve seems super powerful right about now
Or did i miss this earlier in the thread...

Roboute wrote:
Math Hammer!

9 Purifiers (halberds, 1 stave), Librarian (stave) and Techmarine charge Draigo, Librarian and 10 Paladins kitted out for allocation

Mindstrikes kill the Paladins' Librarian (as long as 2 missiles hit, he has a 22% chance to pass at least one re-rolled 5++).
3 Hammerhands go off for the Purifiers (they only need 2).
One Hammerhand goes off for the Paladins (psychic hood will probably block one Hammerhand)
Psychotroke grenades have a variable, possibly devastating effect - I'll ignore these for now
Rad grenades reduce the Paladins to T3
Psyk-out grenades reduce the Paladins to I1

Purifiers attack first with 9 halberds plus the librarian's stave and the techmarine's p-wep, 32 attacks, 16 hits, 13.3 wounds. Let's assume they take 13 - to be generous, 2 on Draigo, 2 on stave, 2 on a sword, 1 on everyone else.
Draigo takes a wound, maybe.
The stave has a 33% chance to suffer Instant Death.
One sword has a 75% chance to suffer ID against two wounds
One sword has a 50% chance to suffer ID against one wound
7 other Paladins each have a 67% chance to suffer ID

On average, about 6 Paladins will die. There's a 67% chance that the banner is gone, reducing the Paladins to 12 attacks back with counter-charge. Draigo might be wounded. Paladins are only S5.

Draigo - 4 attacks, 3.34 hits, 2.78 wounds
Paladins - 12 attacks, 8 hits, 5.33 wounds
Total of 8.11 wounds. One is allocated to the stave, he will probably live, one is allocated to the Librarian, he will live, one is allocated to the Techmarine, he dies, five more Purifiers die.

The Techmarine strikes simultaneously with the Paladins, using his two servo-arms. 2 attacks, 1 hit, 0.83 wounds, probably allocated on the stave, giving the stave paladin a total 50%-ish chance of dying. We'll assume he lives.

Combat Res: 6 to 12 or 13, in favor of the Purifiers. Paladins make a Ld check against Ld4 (assuming difference of 6), failing 83% of the time. The Purifiers have a Libby, so they can't sweeping advance. The Paladins flee and depending on the distance and the Purifiers' consolidation, might not regroup next turn.


All this doesn't include the overpowered crazy-nades! The Paladins could be sitting on their asses with 1 attack each, the Purifiers could all get re-rolls (mostly wiping the Paladins on the alpha strike), or the Paladins could attack each other. That's a 50% chance of getting a result that makes the combat one-sided.


Aftermath: Librarian, the Purifier stave and 3 halberds live.
Draigo, 4 Paladins live but are probably falling back.

Result (Combat Continues): The Paladin squad will emerge victorious, with Draigo and 1-3 Paladins remaining.
Result (Paladins Don't Regroup): The Paladin squad flees some more and is chased off the table like common Guardsmen.
Result (Paladins Regroup): The Paladin squad finishes off the Purifiers, either through shooting or charging. They still only have 1-3 Paladins left.

So the Paladin squad has been gutted by a total investment of about 650 points by the Purifier player. This leaves another 1350 points to counter 700-ish points of Draigowing support units. Bloodcrushers can't beat that as far as point efficiency goes. You're looking at a minimum investment of Fateweaver + 8 Crushers + (Thirster or another 8 Crushers). Fateweaver and 8 Crushers alone outstrip the SR anti-deathstar.

It's not because Purifiers are so much better than Crushers. They're not. They just have the right tools for the job - mindstrike missiles to snipe the Librarian, assault grenades and psyk-out grenades, rad and crazy-nades, and lots of hammerhand. Crushers have pure mean combat power, which in this case doesn't get them as far.

jy2 wrote:

Clauss wrote:So to counter Draigowing..has anyone considered IG psyker squads+ tank shock...I feel that like would be auto win. Even just 2 squads of them would ensure you would get the cast off with the superior range. use chimeras to tank shock..reduce leadership.
GG? weaken resolve seems super powerful right about now
Or did i miss this earlier in the thread...

No, it doesn't work. Tank-shock is done during Movement. Weaken Resolve in Shooting after tanks have already moved....

NoArmorSave wrote:
When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

jy2 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

You're probably right, though for some strange reason, I fear 3 manticores more. Death by volume, don't need LOS and makes for a better Take-All-comer's list.

Roboute wrote:

jy2 wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
When playing IG Vs. Draigo Wing, Medusa's will cause a major problem. Especially if the IG player is fielding 3+ of them.
3x ST10 AP2 pie plates, supported by lots of Melta in Chimeras. Add a dash of Lascannon on the side (Vendettas), and you
may very well have a bunch of tabled Paladins.

You're probably right, though for some strange reason, I fear 3 manticores more. Death by volume, don't need LOS and makes for a better Take-All-comer's list.

The issue with Manticores is they can't be squadroned. So if you take 3, that's all your precious HS slots.

The issue with Medusas is their armor is made of paper and they aren't strong TAC choices.

Against Paladins, I would be more inclined to run LR Demolishers. Same S10 AP2 pie plate, on an AV 14 chassis. Side benefits include a lascannon and possibly 2 multi-meltas if you're feeling cheeky. Demolishers are one of the stronger LRBT loadouts, too, so they'll perform against just about anyone.

Leafblower IG lists are definitely one of the toughest matchups for Draigowing, though. Too much double-T, AP2 shooting to handle, particularly from Vendettas that can avoid allowing the Paladins a cover save, for the most part.

NoArmorSave wrote:I would actually be inclined to choose a squadron of 3 Medusa's over a Leman Russ Demolisher. The Medusa's have a 36" range on their pie plates, as opposed to 24" on the Demolisher, and can be fielded in squadrons of 3 for 1 HS slot.
Also, they can be upgraded with Bastion Breacher Shells for 5 Pts each. These are 48" ST10 AP1 small blasts that always get a bonus die for armor pen; perfect for taking out any armor in the game or killing any type of GK beyond 36".

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:I would actually be inclined to choose a squadron of 3 Medusa's over a Leman Russ Demolisher. The Medusa's have a 36" range on their pie plates, as opposed to 24" on the Demolisher, and can be fielded in squadrons of 3 for 1 HS slot.
Also, they can be upgraded with Bastion Breacher Shells for 5 Pts each. These are 48" ST10 AP1 small blasts that always get a bonus die for armor pen; perfect for taking out any armor in the game or killing any type of GK beyond 36".

Leman Russes can also be taken in squadrons of up to 3. The Medusas have a 36" range, but most ranged anti-tank is at least 36" anyways. They have to fire direct, unlike all other artillery, so they can't hide as well. And squadrons of open-topped AV12 are ridiculously easy to suppress, as multiple glancing or penetrating hits must be distributed amongst the squadron.

Bastion-breacher shells are actually a poor choice, because they replace the Medusa's normal ammo. They would be a great upgrade if they allowed a choice every turn, but instead they become ranged anti-tank in an army filled with great ranged anti-tank, and losing the pie-plate which is vital for taking out Paladins and other big units of tough infantry.

Leman Russes are more expensive, to be sure, but you're definitely making the points back in its durability. There are just other, better choices when it comes to artillery.

Blackmoor wrote:As the foremost Draigowing expert I will tell you that a well built Grey Knight army that is centered around 10 paladins is very formidable no matter what you are using against it.

Remember that even though all of these armies that people here are talking about have all these nice tools to kill paladins, they are killing whatever can kill them right back. So do not think that it will be all that easy to get rid of them. Of course if you play against bad players, like most of the people here who are offering insights, you can do almost anything and win.

Now as far at the OP answer goes you have the right tools to beat him. No, the answer is not to go out and buy a Dark Eldar or Necron army, but the hardest army for Paladins to beat is Grey Knights.

If you have stormravens (or land raiders) you are going to be faster than him and you can get the charge. Whoever assaults in a Grey Knight on Grey Knight game wins. The reason why is with psych out grenades you get to strike first. So take your mindstrike missiles and snipe his librarian and take it out with some perils of the warp tests. You do not want a psychic hood around blocking your psychic powers. You then assault him with 10 purifiers and a librarian. Do not use a lot of heavy weapons in your purifier squad because you will need to swing a lot of force weapons. Then your librarian casts Hammerhand and Might of Titans to crank you up to strength 6, and have at it! Then you cast force weapon from the purifier squad to insta-kill them. You are testing on LD8, so you have a good chance at getting it off (if there are any dreadnaughts nearby be sure to take them out or your force weapon test will be on LD5).

necron99 wrote:I usually do run two stormravens in my list. How can you snipe the libby with the MSM? I've only been playing heavily for a couple of months now. My understanding is that if the libby is part of a unit of termies even if you hit the libby dead on your opponent can allocate the POTW to the termie unit. If I'm mistaken about the mechanics here please tell me what section/page in the rule book spells that out as I'm sure to get some questions on it when I try it - and I will try it! (unless they already know it and I'm just unfamiliar with the rule).

NoArmorSave wrote:When talking about IG Vs. Draigo Wing, the difference between 24" and 36" is quite significant when you are facing Psycannon spam. A bunch of Psycannons can blow up AV14 if they rend. Beyond 24", the only thing threatening the Medusa's would be Psyriflemen. When facing Paladins, using AP3+ weaponry, even Pie Plates, is largely futile.

Camo Netting is also a really good upgrade for Medusa's. If you position things correctly, you can ensure they always have a 3+ cover save.

Bastion Breacher Shells: Could actually be really useful if there is a lot of Mech in your local meta. 3 ST10 AP1 48" blasts that roll an extra dice for armor penetration is nothing to sneeze at. One volley of these (3 blasts) will put a lot of pain on a Paladin squad as well, even if they aren't pie plates. In addition, if you did go the Bastion Breacher route, you still have 2 other HS slots for different Pie Plate options.

I wouldn't spam Medusa's, but I certainly think you can run 3 in 1 HS slot in a competitive list. Especially with all of the GK players out there.

Draigo wrote:For the sake of arguements the entire squad is considered a psyker so thats a lot of perils. lol

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:When talking about IG Vs. Draigo Wing, the difference between 24" and 36" is quite significant when you are facing Psycannon spam. A bunch of Psycannons can blow up AV14 if they rend. Beyond 24", the only thing threatening the Medusa's would be Psyriflemen. When facing Paladins, using AP3+ weaponry, even Pie Plates, is largely futile.

Camo Netting is also a really good upgrade for Medusa's. If you position things correctly, you can ensure they always have a 3+ cover save.

Bastion Breacher Shells: Could actually be really useful if there is a lot of Mech in your local meta. 3 ST10 AP1 48" blasts that roll an extra dice for armor penetration is nothing to sneeze at. One volley of these (3 blasts) will put a lot of pain on a Paladin squad as well, even if they aren't pie plates. In addition, if you did go the Bastion Breacher route, you still have 2 other HS slots for different Pie Plate options.

I wouldn't spam Medusa's, but I certainly think you can run 3 in 1 HS slot in a competitive list. Especially with all of the GK players out there.

Fair points. I was referring to LR Demolishers when talking about squadroning up, and you may have misunderstood that given your comment about AP3+ weaponry.

As far as range vs. durability goes, Medusas are indeed less vulnerable to psycannons. They are much more vulnerable to psyflemen, though, despite probably having a cover save. Psyfleman don't pose a credible threat to Demolishers, because they can only glance AV14 on a 6. I see it as a trade-off.

As far as Bastion-breacher shells go, if you're playing against a Paladin deathstar and he doesn't space his models out so you can only hit one with the small blast ... he deserves what he gets. You've brought up some good points about the viability of Medusas with camo netting vs. Paladins, but I would still take them without bastion-breachers. S10 ordnance is strong enough vs. vehicles, and 36" range is ok when your cover is a wall of Chimeras full of meltavets (as I assume we're talking about a mech list here).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
]For the sake of arguements the entire squad is considered a psyker so thats a lot of perils. lol

NoArmorSave wrote:

The small blast marker is 3". The Paladin's can not be more than 2" apart because of coherency. Each small blast will likely hit 2-3 Paladins. I think a volley of Bastion-breacher shells is very nasty, it really depends on your local
meta as far as what is best. I would agree that the default ST10 AP2 pie plate is best in most circumstances, but it sure is nice being able to go to an essentially 48" ST10 meltagun for 5pts.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

The small blast marker is 3". The Paladin's can not be more than 2" apart because of coherency. Each small blast will likely hit 2-3 Paladins. I think a volley of Bastion-breacher shells is very nasty, it really depends on your local
meta as far as what is best. I would agree that the default ST10 AP2 pie plate is best in most circumstances, but it sure is nice being able to go to an essentially 48" ST10 meltagun for 5pts.

The small blast marker is 3" in DIAMETER. Since it has to be centered on a model, you can only get a maximum of 1.5" (radius) on each side, which means that any unit in maximum coherence distance will only ever have one model hit by a small blast marker if you don't scatter. You might hit two if you scatter in between two models.

A large blast, by contrast, is 5" in diameter, so if you aim for a Paladin who's flanked on both sides, you're guaranteed a minimum of three hits without scatter, and almost certain to get two even if you do scatter.

Blackmoor wrote:I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

Might not have been, woulda, coulda, shoulda. All it would take is one spacing screw up, and we have ourselves a bunch of blown up Paladins and chunks
of Terminator armor all over the place.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:I did not realize that I was facing a colossus in that game. If I was I might have deployed differently and spread out a little bit.

I could show you the game I played 3 rounds earlier against IG and because of his demolisher I might not have been as carefree with my spacing.

Might not have been, woulda, coulda, shoulda. All it would take is one spacing screw up, and we have ourselves a bunch of blown up Paladins and chunks
of Terminator armor all over the place.

If all I was facing in that game was one Colossus, I wouldn't space out either. It doesn't have sufficient strength to ID Paladins, and doesn't pierce their armor.

With regard to small blasts and spacing, you do realize that the center hole of the blast marker has to be over the base of the model you target, right? The small blast template is 3" diameter, so if the center hole is over the base that means the template can only reach 1.5" off the target's base, maximum. Maximum range: 1.5". Maximum unit coherency: 2". Maximum number of models hit at maximum coherency: One. It's exceedingly simple math.

NoArmorSave wrote:
A - It is still sloppy playing. The extra Paladins hit could potentially suffer more wounds over it. Blackmoor calls himself "the foremost Draigo Wing expert". If that is the case, he sould be displaying a perfect and impeccable play style at all times.
B - It develops bad habits to be sloppy with coherency in one game, and than claim you will suddenly have mastery over coherency in another because the blasts are stronger.
C - There was also an additional reason for him to have better coherency in this game. His Paladins were between 2 different objectives. They would have had better control over the situation if they were spaced the maximum 2" toward each
objective. It was a minor tactical mistake for them to be in this type of coherency & formation relative to the objectives.

As clearly demonstrated, even "the foremost Draigo Wing expert" rarely keeps all of his models at maximum coherency. There wasn't a turn in the game where I couldn't hit at least 2 models with a small blast, and could usually hit at least 3 per small blast.


I don't believe there is anything more to be said on this. You can try to defend your man because I caught him with his pants down, but it is not going to change anything.


Learnings:
1 - Both small and large blasts rated at S8+ AP2 & AP1 are absolutely deadly to Paladins.
2 - Even seasoned tournament players don't maintain perfect unit coherency and formation at all times.

Blackmoor wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:
A - It is still sloppy playing. The extra Paladins hit could potentially suffer more wounds over it. Blackmoor calls himself "the foremost Draigo Wing expert". If that is the case, he sould be displaying a perfect and impeccable play style at all times.
B - It develops bad habits to be sloppy with coherency in one game, and than claim you will suddenly have mastery over coherency in another because the blasts are stronger.
C - There was also an additional reason for him to have better coherency in this game. His Paladins were between 2 different objectives. They would have had better control over the situation if they were spaced the maximum 2" toward each
objective. It was a minor tactical mistake for them to be in this type of coherency & formation relative to the objectives.

As clearly demonstrated, even "the foremost Draigo Wing expert" rarely keeps all of his models at maximum coherency. There wasn't a turn in the game where I couldn't hit at least 2 models with a small blast, and could usually hit at least 3 per small blast.


I don't believe there is anything more to be said on this. You can try to defend your man because I caught him with his pants down, but it is not going to change anything.


Learnings:
1 - Both small and large blasts rated at S8+ AP2 & AP1 are absolutely deadly to Paladins.
2 - Even seasoned tournament players don't maintain perfect unit coherency and formation at all times.

Really? So what you are saying is that you do not change tactics or strategy depending on your opponent?

Against Black Templar you want to be clumped together.
#1. You want him to shoot frag shots at you so you have to make a tempting target.
#2, I have to be very careful of assaults. He has 15 termintaors with powerfists and preferred enemy. I can't have my guys spread out all over the place and get assaulted and have models that can't attack back.
#3. There were no threats to me being clumped up.

If you think that you should always space your units out not matter what army you are facing, that explains why I am the foremost Draigowing expert and you do not understand how they should be played.

NoArmorSave wrote:
"You want him to shoot frag shots at you so you have to make a tempting target."

Are you serious? You are seriously using this as an excuse as to why you clumped your Paladins? Your opponent is supposedly a high level player that has beat you in the past. He isn't going to shoot frags at your Paladins and you know it.



"There were no threats to me being clumped up."

Bulls hit. There were blasts in his list, that is a threat no matter how you spin it. It was also suboptimal playing & displayed bad habits; if you want to be the world's best Grey Knight player

Roboute wrote:Blackmoor's already responded to your points, NAS, but I'll throw my own two cents in.

I didn't even put two and two together that you can't have Terminators and Colossi in the same army lol. So when you brought up that point about the Colossus you were just making a hyperbolic statement (trolling?)

Why would Blackmoor worry about coherency if his opponent has nothing to take advantage of it with? Particularly when clumping up has its advantages in this particular match up?

Surely, as a good player yourself, you understand the importance of modifying your tactics to fit the opponent you're playing? You're honestly going to call Blackmoor lazy instead of a flexible general because he didn't space out to avoid nonexistent blasts?

It doesn't take a player of Blackmoor's caliber to say, "Hmm. My opponent's running a squadron of 3 Medusas with bastion-breachers. Perhaps I should space my expensive deathstar out so he can hit as few as possible. Y'know, this might be a great idea anyways so I can multi-assault more of his vehicles at once."

And calling people out on bad manners when you're the only person in this thread who has needed to rein them in thus far is just poor form. Particularly when you treat this debate like politics, taking an example that doesn't support your point (the battle report of Blackmoor clumping up), pulling it out of context, and using it to both support your failing argument and bad-mouth another person's playing style.

It's ok to be wrong on the Internet. When you first mentioned Medusas, I was pretty down on them. I altered my opinion as the result of what you posted, like a rational human being. I'm not going to keep debating a point with someone who is too belligerent to do the same.

NoArmorSave wrote:

Roboute wrote:Blackmoor's already responded to your points, NAS, but I'll throw my own two cents in.

I didn't even put two and two together that you can't have Terminators and Colossi in the same army lol. So when you brought up that point about the Colossus you were just making a hyperbolic statement (trolling?)

Why would Blackmoor worry about coherency if his opponent has nothing to take advantage of it with? Particularly when clumping up has its advantages in this particular match up?

Surely, as a good player yourself, you understand the importance of modifying your tactics to fit the opponent you're playing? You're honestly going to call Blackmoor lazy instead of a flexible general because he didn't space out to avoid nonexistent blasts?

It doesn't take a player of Blackmoor's caliber to say, "Hmm. My opponent's running a squadron of 3 Medusas with bastion-breachers. Perhaps I should space my expensive deathstar out so he can hit as few as possible. Y'know, this might be a great idea anyways so I can multi-assault more of his vehicles at once."

And calling people out on bad manners when you're the only person in this thread who has needed to rein them in thus far is just poor form. Particularly when you treat this debate like politics, taking an example that doesn't support your point (the battle report of Blackmoor clumping up), pulling it out of context, and using it to both support your failing argument and bad-mouth another person's playing style.

It's ok to be wrong on the Internet. When you first mentioned Medusas, I was pretty down on them. I altered my opinion as the result of what you posted, like a rational human being. I'm not going to keep debating a point with someone who is too belligerent to do the same.

I am not trying to be belligerent dude. I hope you don't feel that way about me. I just call shenanigans on self proclaiming yourself the wordl's #1 expert, when you clearly are not.

There are very good reasons for not clumping Paladins in most (but not all) tactical situations, the least of which is not developing & displaying bad habits. In this particular game, there were actual technical reasons his Paladins should not have been clumped.

It is kind of a petty thing, and I don't want to keep going over it. My main point was to demonstrate that it is very easy for a small blast marker to hit multiple Paladins.

NoArmorSave wrote:I am not trying to be belligerent dude. I hope you don't feel that way about me. I just call shenanigans on self proclaiming yourself the wordl's #1 expert, when you clearly are not.

NoArmorSave wrote:There are very good reasons for not clumping Paladins in most (but not all) tactical situations, the least of which is not developing & displaying bad habits. In this particular game, there were actual technical reasons his Paladins should not have been clumped.

NoArmorSave wrote:It is kind of a petty thing, and I don't want to keep going over it. My main point was to demonstrate that it is very easy for a small blast marker to hit multiple Paladins.

Marshal_Gus wrote:The unit I run now has a DC unit with 5 power weapons (not counting the Reclusiarch) and their Stormraven also carries a DC Dreadnought. If I'm able to coordinate the ideal assault, then I could probably generate 20+ power weapon wounds.

Marshal_Gus wrote:The unit I run now has a DC unit with 5 power weapons (not counting the Reclusiarch) and their Stormraven also carries a DC Dreadnought. If I'm able to coordinate the ideal assault, then I could probably generate 20+ power weapon wounds.

NoArmorSave wrote:It won't be effective at taking out a 10 man strong unit of Paladins. You do understand that they can allocate their wounds across the entire squad, and 3 of the wounds will likely be a moot point? They will put 1 on Draigo who has a 3++ save, 1 on the Librarian who has a 2++ save (warding stave), and another one on a Paladin that has a 2++ save (warding stave). These wounds will most likely not get thru, and you will have to cause somewhere around 13 unsaved wounds before the Paladins remove a single model. You need instant death weapons to realistically deal with Paladins.

NoArmorSave wrote:A single 8 strong Bloodcrusher squad coming in with 32 S6 power weapon attacks will most likely not take out a 10 man Paladin deathstar. It takes 2 of these (64 S6 power weapon attacks) to significantly neuter the Paladins. Bloodcrushers are the strongest assault unit in the game, right next to Paladins. If you are going to try to assault Paladins with BA, you need lots of Power Fists and\or Thunderhammers. Even then, it is going to be dicey, because 3 of those wounds are out the window immediately, and the Paladins will all be striking first and most likely wounding on 2's with 20-30 (maybe even more depending on circumstances) power weapon attacks of their own.

Roboute wrote:

NoArmorSave wrote:I am not trying to be belligerent dude. I hope you don't feel that way about me. I just call shenanigans on self proclaiming yourself the wordl's #1 expert, when you clearly are not.

While I understand that mindset, it seems as though you've let your desire to take Blackmoor down a peg get you into a sticky situation. You've taken some (IMO) very strange positions, and don't seem to want to back down from them even as you claim to not be belligerent.

NoArmorSave wrote:There are very good reasons for not clumping Paladins in most (but not all) tactical situations, the least of which is not developing & displaying bad habits. In this particular game, there were actual technical reasons his Paladins should not have been clumped.

This is the part that baffles me. In this particular game, there were actual technical reasons clumping his Paladins was a good idea. As you yourself pointed out, his opponent would have to be an idiot to shoot frags over kraks at the Paladins, and his opponent didn't have any other blast weapons. You haven't shown any reasons why he shouldn't clump Paladins in that particular situation aside from "developing bad habits," which is a confusing criticism to make based on Blackmoor's behavior in a single game. It seems like you picked that batrep just to criticize Blackmoor, because it certainly didn't support your point about small blasts.

NoArmorSave wrote:It is kind of a petty thing, and I don't want to keep going over it. My main point was to demonstrate that it is very easy for a small blast marker to hit multiple Paladins.

See, that's exactly what I'm talking about! Your main point is indeed kind of a petty thing, but you refuse to admit that you might have been partially incorrect about it!

Let me rephrase what I've been trying to say. As you say, it is indeed very easy for a small blast marker to hit multiple Paladins, if your opponent allows it. Unfortunately, this occurrence is 100% determined by your opponent's behavior, specifically whether he spaces his models at maximum coherency. Thus, while completely possible in theory, against an intelligent opponent it is a given that in a standard situation (Paladins marching across the board), the models will be spaced so you can only hit one with a small blast, particularly if your blasts are as scary as Medusas with BB shells. The exception to the rule is the example you've cited, because there are no credible blast threats in that batrep. However, this batrep is the exception to the rule, and you're acting like it proves the rule's opposite.

In fact, didn't this whole conversation start because I said something like:

"You know what, Medusas do sound like a good counter to Paladins. But I'd probably stick with regular shells, because the BB shells will only hit a single Paladin at a time."

and you proceeded to defend your statement about BB shells by launching a long and (IMO, bizarre) argument for small blast templates. Perhaps you were just incorrect about BB shells being more effective against a Draigowing than regular shells? If you think about it, even assuming that the Paladin player has mistakenly clumped enough to be hit multiple times by a small blast, that just means the large blast will get even more Paladins. Both shell types have a longer range than psycannons and both can still be hit by Psyflemen. It seems that, against Paladins (as well as in a TAC list), Medusas with BB shells just aren't the stronger option.

That was also the point when we were still on topic, so I think returning there is more productive anyways.

NoArmorSave wrote:You went on and said they were a poor choice, and I tried to demonstrate they are a viable option in a TAC list. Against Draigo Wing specifically, yes, normal shells are more effective. As far as which choice I would include in my TAC list; it would depend on the meta\environment I am playing at.
I am telling you, a barrage of 3x 48" ST10 AP1 small blasts that get an extra D6 for armor penetration and are rolling at +1 on the vehicle damage chart is really nasty. It has the potential to do truly gross things.

necron99 wrote:Wow, thanks for the clarification on POTW vs assaults vs shooting for wound allocation. That's the information I need to be able to produce as most people I play aren't used to having something other than bad rolls causing POTW - even another GK player.

NoArmorSave wrote:
I just read the Grey Knight 1.2 FAQ today (latest one). They actually specifically address this situation:

"Q: How do you work out whether a psyker is affected
by the Psi-shock special rule on a mindstrike missile or
a psyk-out bomb? (57, 58)
A: Any psyker under the template will be effected by
Psi-shock."

Mannahnin wrote:
Blackmoor is the "foremost" Draigowing player in the country, in that he's the only guy I'm aware of taking it to major GTs and placing at or very near the top. He took 2nd at the NOVA Open with it last year, and I don't know of any other Draigowing players who've had any top five or even top 10 GT finishes, particularly at one of the really big events like NOVA, Adepticon or WargamesCon. He might not be the best player using it in the US, but that's really impossible to determine. He's certainly the most successful so far on the national tournament scene.

labmouse42 wrote:I am building a guard list now, and I've been thinking of putting 3 LRBT's in the army.
Would 3 battle cannon shots a turn be enough to dent draigowing to death?

labmouse42 wrote:I am building a guard list now, and I've been thinking of putting 3 LRBT's in the army.
Would 3 battle cannon shots a turn be enough to dent draigowing to death?

labmouse42 wrote:Thats a good point on the AP2 issue. My worry with demos is they must be within 24", which happens to be psycannon range, and a rending shot will at least shake a demo.

NoArmorSave wrote:

labmouse42 wrote:Thats a good point on the AP2 issue. My worry with demos is they must be within 24", which happens to be psycannon range, and a rending shot will at least shake a demo.

That is why I like Medusas. They have a 36" range (48" with Bastion Shells), ST10 AP2. You can field 3 in a squad.

You would need to give them cammo netting and use other vehicles (Chimeras) to control line of site to them. If they are ever exposed to the Psyrflemen, they are
done. However, they only need 1 turn of shooting to do massive damage.

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm and here I thought this thread was dead a nd buried.. :/ The problem with most draigowing lists is they do not have enough on the board. No one questions it's toughness. Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins is over 1k pts.

Of course it is hard to kill but that also leaves very little else they can have below 2k pts. In a pitched battled c&c theyre going to be hard pressed to win vs a good opponent. As you will see many draigowing lists are gimmicky and their main strength is kp denial not objective based games.

L Valx wrote: Do you follow competitive 40k? Doesn't sound like you do. Blackmoor plays a Paladin list and does very very well with it. Hell, he did really well at the NOVA which plays objective based missions that favor troop-heavy armies AND he still did very well. Draigo offers flexibility in his ability to make almost every unit in the list a scoring threat.

Is Draigowing perfect? No. Is it the most rock solid TAC list? No. But out of the major "hammer" lists it seems to have the most flexibility and durability, thus making it a good choice.

LValx wrote:

Draigo wrote:Hhhmm and here I thought this thread was dead a nd buried.. :/ The problem with most draigowing lists is they do not have enough on the board. No one questions it's toughness. Draigo, Libby and 10 paladins is over 1k pts.

Of course it is hard to kill but that also leaves very little else they can have below 2k pts. In a pitched battled c&c theyre going to be hard pressed to win vs a good opponent. As you will see many draigowing lists are gimmicky and their main strength is kp denial not objective based games.

Do you follow competitive 40k? Doesn't sound like you do. Blackmoor plays a Paladin list and does very very well with it. Hell, he did really well at the NOVA which plays objective based missions that favor troop-heavy armies AND he still did very well. Draigo offers flexibility in his ability to make almost every unit in the list a scoring threat.

Is Draigowing perfect? No. Is it the most rock solid TAC list? No. But out of the major "hammer" lists it seems to have the most flexibility and durability, thus making it a good choice.