Exactly as poll is worded. Regardless of what you vote for, please post a short explanation for your reasoning. Thank you.

Of course they are.

*Edit* I'll clarify my position. To think otherwise only complicates what is largely a simple ruling. The difference boils down to "I'm going to deploy my entire foot platoon of 50 guardsmen plus platoon command squad," and "I'm going to deploy my entire mechanized platoon of 50 guardsmen in 5 chimeras and a platoon command squad in a chimera." To exclude the chimeras poses more problems, such as what do you with all the chimeras? Run them in empty? Bring in the entire platoon squad by squad, which contradicts the FAQ? Simple really, chimeras as DTs are apart of the platoon for deployment/reserve purposes.

I don't have my rulebook, so I can't give any page numbers or other such information.

They are upgrades the same way Commissars are. I know this poll is in response to the rather heated debate concerning deployment and DoW due to the new FAQ.

With the exception of deployment in limited Troop unit scenarios (i.e. DoW), they are a separate unit.
In the case of the exception listed, they [i]count as[i] part of hte unit and, thus can be deployed with the rest of the platoon.
Therefore, I vote other.

Yup. Just like any other unit that's a part of a platoon.

The entry in the codex allows you to buy a unit from the "Dedicated Transport" section. In the same way as buying an Inquistor allows you to buy a unit of Henchmen.
The unit type will be Troops, but it is not part of the platoon, so it will not deploy as a single unit with the platoon.

Salted Diamond wrote:They are upgrades the same way Commissars are. I know this poll is in response to the rather heated debate concerning deployment and DoW due to the new FAQ.

New FAQ?
WAhhhhhhhhhh?
do you mean the 6th Edition one?
nevermind I found it.

Yes, the transports are part of the platoon. If they weren't then the codex or FAQ would have to mention it. The normal game rules already tell us that Multiple Unit Choices (BRB page 92, dedicated transports as the example even) bought under the same FOC slot are in all respects otherwise separate units... and the IG Platoon rule in itself countermands this even without the FAQ.

They are bought as Dedicated Transports in the same way that Rhinos are bought as Dedicated Transports for Space Marines.
In DoW you can bring in 1 full Squad AND the Dedicated Rhino as your 2 "troop units." Why would it be different for IG?
Note: I think the INTENT of the FAQ was to settle the issue of only being allowed to deploy JUST 2 Heavy Weapon Squads or just the PCS in a Rhino or just 2 blob squads. Now you can drop the entire Platoon as a whole (prestaging your blob and HWs so to speak) along with your CCS (sans Rhino).
Hopefully GW will recognize the implications of how that FAQ is worded and will issue a rapid response FAQ to the FAQ.
As a new guard player I don't like being in a situation of having to deal with such a major issue on a store by store house rule.

dkellyj wrote:In DoW you can bring in 1 full Squad AND the Dedicated Rhino as your 2 "troop units." Why would it be different for IG?

Because the FAQ allows it - IG platoons have always been, and will always be, special.

Dkellyj - because the FAQ for IG entirely changes the rules?

The ENTIRE platoon is one *unit* for the purpose of deployment in deployment limited missions.
Chimera are part of the *platoon* and thus, for the purpose of deployment in deployment limited missions count as one unit with the rest of the platoon.

The FAQ merely says that the platoon deploys as one unit and when it arrives from reserves squads in non-dedicated transports roll separately for reserves. There is no mention at all that platoons involves transports. Not in the platoon composition, not in the trasport rules (codex IG and BRB), no where. Units arriving/deploying along with their chimeras is because of basic transport & reserve rules. Not because they are part of the platoon.

As to "are chimeras upgrades", this has been asked before http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/367951.page . Look at the answers then...

Apart from the rules for multiple unit choices, page 92, that copper loves to keep ignoring.

BRB pg 92 Multiple unit choices "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects" - this passage clears up that multiple unit choices except from being bought as a single choice has no other effect in the game at all.

Wrong, the IG Errata makes them count as one unit for the purposes of deploying in deployment limited missions

You just dont get specific > general, do you?

Again:
The FAQ merely says that the platoon deploys as one unit and when it arrives from reserves squads in non-dedicated transports roll separately for reserves. There is no mention at all that platoons involves transports. Not in the platoon composition, not in the trasport rules (codex IG and BRB), no where. Units arriving/deploying along with their chimeras is because of basic transport & reserve rules. Not because they are part of the platoon.

My IG codex shows them as part of the platoon. See, you can buy them for infantry squads, PCS, etc.

Guess your tippex is working overtime again.

The latter part of the FAQ reinforces D-transports as part of the platoon as well, but you keep ignoring that as well

Luckily the overwhelming majority seem to understand the real rules, not taloshammer-ignore-inconvenient-rules-40k

You can buy them as an option of the dedicated transport page, not in the platoon page. Platoons don't have chimeras in their composition.

Odd, I can see an entry for them on the platoon page. The rules for the dedicated trsansport are elsewhere, but so are the rules for lasguns, autocannon, and so on.

Or are you going to claim a platoon cannot shoot, because its weapon stats arent "part of" the platoon?

Any more awful arguments you want to repeat, despite being debunked every time you try?

Nope, those options are part of the platoon pages under "options". Chimeras are in the dedicated transport page. Look better next time.

Your arguments so far
a transport is like the comisar (huh?)
multiple unit choice rule in brb - which claimed the opposite
the faq - which doesn't mention that chimeras are part of the platoon and the deployment passage fits the normal transport & reserve rules without the chimeras being part of the platoon
the chimeras are an option in the platoon page - they are in the dedicated transport page
that chimeras are part of the platoon just because you say so - platoon composition in IG codex disagrees.
options such as autocannons are not part of the platoon page - They are part of the platoon page under options
wargear such as autocannons are included in the squad like transports (huh?)
Keep going...

Hey, you two, take it back where it belongs, please.

I voted other.
Not that voting means anything at all re rules issues.

Its most surely unproven at this time.
The faq itself is in limbo-land and needs rewritteing quick sharp.

Back to lying, I see

Talos lying, again wrote:options such as autocannons are not part of the platoon page - They are part of the platoon page under options

Wrong. Apparently you cannot read a simple English sentence.

YOUR argument is that, despite the option for a Chimera appering on the Platoon page, they are not part of the platoon. Autocannon also appear as an option on the platoon page, and are part of the platoon despite their stats appearing elsewhere

You have a real issue with truthfulness, or else you are atetmpting to create ANOTHER strawman to add to your ever increasing list of fallacies

Talos lying for the umpteenth time wrote:wargear such as autocannons are included in the squad like transports (huh?)

Nope, still not my argument. Try again - everytime you construct a strawman (or in this case just simply lying) you will be called on it, in the hope noone else takes your arguments as having merit

Why would the FAQ go out of its way to tell you that Non-dedicated transports roll seperately and not say the same for dedicated transports? Since GW sees a difference and says that the platoon choice as a whole deploys as one entity but not to include Non-DT units then, by process of elimination, DT units are to be deployed with the rest of the platoon.

Its exactly that process of elimination the Copper tries to gloss over, by pretending that chimera would roll on anyway. Utterly ignoring empty chimera, of course...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

nosferatu1001 wrote:Stuff

copper.talos wrote:Stuff

fuusa wrote:Hey, you two, take it back where it belongs, please.

Yes this very much so please. I would prefer it if this thread was not prematurely locked. Posting your own reasons for why you voted the way you did is fine. Responding to another poster's post to clarify something is fine. The back and forth arguments are not fine and are not for this thread though. Please use the other thread debating this issue already and keep the majority of arguments there. Thank you all.

OP asks, "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

I have been reading the earlier thread (up to 8 pages as I write this) as well as this new poll with some interest. I play mech IG, not exclusively, but often. IG is also a common opponent army at my FLGS, with several active players. I am sure this issue will come up next week at our tournament.

Other than some brief outbursts of immaturity, it has been a great debate. I do not believe either position has a conclusive supporting argument. (Epistemological definition of conclusive evidence guarantees the truth of the position being supported) People often say something is conclusive when they really mean convincing or persuasive.

I find the argument in favor of the chimera being part of the infantry platoon to be the more persuasive case.

This is definitely a change from how the situation was previously played. The change is due to the new language in the IG "faq". It should be noted that this change is not in the faq section of the "faq", but the errata section. "The errata [section] corrects any mistakes in the codex." This is because what people, myself included, commonly call the "faq" could be more accurately a codex update.

We all want to know what is permitted under the DoW rules of deployment for an IG platoon with one or more dedicated transports (chimera) selected for its PCS and/or Infantry squads. IMO, the crucial point has been correctly identified by the poll question. "Are Chimeras that are purchased for either Platoon Command Squads or Infantry Squads part of the Platoon that the squad(s) that purchased them belong to?"

sigh.. have to go to dentist. will be back and edit in more

edit: back. OK, here we go...

Let's start by quoting some rules and defining some terms/rules

Infantry platoon - my hard copy of the IG codex is from July 2009. On page 96, it says, "Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-2 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying, and is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves."

Nifty, sounds like a nice way to pack a lot of blob firepower happiness into one troops choice on the force org chart or to drop on the board all at once.

Platoon Command Squad (PCS) and Infantry Squad (PIS) - their entries on pages 96 and 97 respectively, go on to say "Transport: The squad may take a Chimera as dedicated transport (see page 99 for points cost)."

Nifty, my PCSs and PISs can buy dedicated transports (DT). So far so good. What all is this good for other than trying to squeeze 17000 points of IG into the standard force org chart? (Trust me, it's not pretty, but you can do it.) I'm not sure, maybe something will come up. I'll wait and see....

I should note at this point that I started playing 40k about 18 months ago and only ever learned 5th ed rules. I am not confusing this stuff with some previous edition or codex, and I do have some experience playing with and against IG platoons. My experience is far from perfect, just as I am far from infallible. 40k is a game that includes many simple rules that can have non-obvious and complex interactions. Part of what I love about the game is the continued exploration of and subtle changes to these odd rules interactions. Until last week, if you asked me what infantry platoons were good for I would have said squeezing points into the force org and bringing lots of guys in from reserves simultaneously. If I played dawn of war, the most I would drop onto the table before turn 1 would be 5 PISs (combined into one unit, probably with a commissar), a PCS and a Company Command Squad (CCS). No chimeras, no Heavy Weapons Squads (HWS), no etc else. In retrospect, I think I and many at my shop were playing that wrong, but I'll get to that in a second.

I checked my old copy of the Codex: Imperial Guard FAQ ( m1490293a_FAQ_ImperialGuard_2009.pdf) It's dated August 2009. I find no mention of the Infantry Platoon in relation to Dawn of War, deployment, reserves or outflanking. If anyone has a copy of an IG FAQ pdf released after this but before the Jan 2012 one, I would be very interested in hearing if there is any mention of these topics. That brings us to the current debate, which began (I believe) when the Jan 2012 FAQs dropped and some of us read this...

WARHAMMER 40,000 CODEX: IMPERIAL GUARD Official Update Version 1.1 (m2170011a_Imperial_Guard_FAQ_Version_1_1_January_2012.pdf) says, "Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed. In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

The document in question started off by saying
"Although we strive to ensure that our codexes are
perfect, sometimes mistakes do creep in. In addition,
we occasionally print new versions of our rules, which
require amendments to be made in older versions of
our codexes. When such issues arise, we feel that it is
important to deal with them as promptly as we can,
and we therefore produce regular updates for all of
our codexes. When changes are made, the version
number will be updated, and any changes from the
previous version will be highlighted in Magenta. Where
a version number has a letter, E.g. 1.1a, this means it
has had a local update, only in that language, to clarify
a translation issue or other minor correction.
Each update is split into three sections: Errata,
Amendments, and ‘Frequently Asked Questions’. The
Errata corrects any mistakes in the codex, while the
Amendments bring the codex up to date with the latest
version of the rules. The Frequently Asked Questions
(or ‘FAQ’) section answers commonly asked questions
about the rules. Although you can mark corrections
directly in your codex, this is by no means necessary –
just keep a copy of the update with your codex.

The fact that this document is numbered 1.1 and that the boilerplate warning label at the beginning is ALSO in magenta, makes me strongly suspect that this is the first time this language was included in the IG FAQ and that this was likely the 1st update of the IG FAQ since August 2009. But, back to our debate starting text. I will divide it into 3 parts.

“[A] Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed.
[B] In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon.
[C] Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

A and B seem to be a restatement of the original codex text with a slight twist. Instead of the "Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops choice on the force organization chart when deploying" we now have "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed." Interesting. Muddy, but interesting. C seems to be genuinely new information. I have seen this issue come up for PCSs and PISs embarked on reserved Vendettas. I like and appreciate the clarification that C brings to that situation. I would have really, really appreciated it being a separate FAQ entry from the one it was lumped in with, because lumped in with the words "In addition" in the preceding sentence has caused many people, myself included, some major confusion. Back to A and B.

This appears to be a broadening clarification of the original codex entry. Now when I play dawn of war, I can drop my whole platoon on the table as one troops choice, HWS and all. In retrospect, I believe that was RAI all along and that I was playing incorrectly. Oh well, I am more concerned with getting it correct now than defending any previous mistakes I might have made. I am perfectly willing to admit that I make mistakes and do things wrong. I would prefer to learn about it and play it right in the future.

But what about those pesky chimeras? What do the rules have to say about them?

page 99 IG codex "Many Imperial Guard units have the option of selecting a dedicated transport vehicle. These vehicles do not use up any force organizational chart selections, but otherwise function as separate units. See the Vehicles section of the Warhammer 40000 rulebook for details of how transport vehicles operate." o....k.....

The BRB has quite a lot to say about vehicles. The 2 passages I found most relevant were...

page 67 BRB
"DEDICATED TRANSPORTS
Sometimes a unit entry in a Codex will include a transport option, allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit. These 'dedicated
transports' do not use up a slot on the force organization chart. Other vehicles may also have a transport capacity, but they are chosen separately
as normal and occupy a force organization chart slot of their own (for example, the mighty Space Marine Land Raider).

The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent
characters). After the game begins, it can then transport any friendly infantry unit, subject to transport capacity and other special exclusions, as
explained in the vehicles entry (it might not be able to transport Terminators, for example)."

and

page 87 BRB
"Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for. When this
distinction is called for (for example in some missions or deployment types), dedicated transport vehicles count as being from the same
force organization category as the unit they were bought for. For example, a Rhino bought for a Space Marine Tactical Squad (Troops)
counts as a unit of Troops. but if it was bought for a unit of Veterans (Elites) It counts as Elite."

page 93 BRB
Dawn of War says a player "can deploy up to two units from his Troops selections and up to one unit from his HQ selections in his half of the table"

They even kindly give an example that includes dedicated transports...
"Example: player A wins the roIl-off and deploys an infantry unit from his Troops and one monstrous creature from his HQ, in his half of the table. He also
declares that a second infantry unit from his Troops will use its Infiltrate ability In his half of the table, player B then deploys a unit of Troops. already embarked
into their dedicated transport (which is his second unit of Troops). He then deploys an independent character from his HO, joining the unit embarked in the
transport. Finally, player deploys his infiltrating unit."

Nifty. Now what's it all mean in the following situation? Dawn of War deployment, a player has a CCS w/ Chimera, a Vet squad with Chimera, and 2 Infantry platoons - one with the minimum 2 PISs w/ Chimera and the PCSs with Chimera, and the other Infantry Platoon super full with a conscripts blob, 5 PISs (either together or separate), 5 HWS 1 PCS and the attached/associated 6 chimeras. What is the most models that player can deploy before turn 1?

A week ago I would have said the CCS, not it's Chimera, the small Infantry platoon, as a PCS and a 20 man blob, but not their 3 chimeras. An infantry platoon HAS to deploy together, but many larger ones could not deploy in DOW before the 1st turn due the deployment constraints. The new IG Codex update has changed (or at the least, clarified) that. What about the chimeras?

I have gone round in circles on this. I think the Al'rahem example is instructive, but not a conclusive precedent. I think the distinction between "transport" and "unit upgrade" is a red herring. The Chimera is clearly not the same unit as the PCS or the PIS, but is it in the same platoon? I think that current RAW, the chimeras are separate from the platoon. I think the RAI, the Al'rahem example, and the nebulous nature of the infantry platoon entry in general and the language of the new FAQ entry in particular STRONGLY suggests that the chimeras are part of the platoon, but in the spirit of RAW and tournament consistency, I don't think they should be part of the initial deployment.

Since I am not a psychic, I can only make a conclusive case for RAW, not RAI. I would love clarification of this issue by GW, but I think it unlikely in the near future. Until then, you are only allowed to do in the game what you are allowed to do in the game. Just because you cannot show me a rule that says I cannot drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing, does not mean I can drop an angry cat on the game area if I am losing. I would have to show show you a rule that says I can. Hence, I cannot. I think there is a STRONG argument for the chimeras to be part of the platoon. I cannot in good faith it is clear and without fluff inference on my part.

I will bounce it around my shop, but unless someone can cite me a rule I have missed, a faq entry that sheds more light, a GW battle rep that exemplifies the situation, etc. I will have to say no chimeras as part of the infantry platoon.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:Why would the FAQ go out of its way to tell you that Non-dedicated transports roll seperately and not say the same for dedicated transports? Since GW sees a difference and says that the platoon choice as a whole deploys as one entity but not to include Non-DT units then, by process of elimination, DT units are to be deployed with the rest of the platoon.

Because if the faq didn't make a distiction between dedicated and non dedicated then you could have 3 vendetas, put one infantry squad inside and have them arrive with one reserve roll. Or worse make 3 squadrons of 3 valkyries, put 1 infantry squad in 1 valkyrie from each squadron and have all 9(!) arrive with one reserve roll. This is the situation the faq adresses. It was never intented to imply that dedicated transports are suddenly made part of the platoon.


And to resolve this "instead" issue. Non DTs with platoon units inside arrive rolling separately for reserves, instead of DTs with platoon units inside, which arrive normally along with the platoon using normal transport & reserve rules. Empty chimeras are not part of the faq at all.

Yep, the correct, rulesbased option has been selected by the overwhelming majority.

OP - i'm correcting the lies of a single poster, who is apparently incapable of telling the truth. I'll try to refrain from much more arguing, however have to reserve the ability to point out the inaccuracies, fallacies and down right untruths of a poster.

Just like I stated in the thread on this subject. Yes they are apart of the platoon. They are an upgrade (albeit with different rules being a vehicle) just like a commisar or a HWT.

I said 'no' simply because they are not in the list of units in the platoon on page 96 and there is no FAQ/errata that has changed that.

They are deployed with the platoon for DOW purposes as per the new FAQ and its implications at the end of the relevant part but are still not part of the platoon.

But, hey! Either way, we get the same results: stupid numbers of 'umies in stupid number of boxes being deployed in DOW.

-cgmckenzie

Dedicated Transports have to be part of the Platoon, if the unit that purchased it is also part of the Platoon.

A DT does not exist without the unit that purchased it. If the unit that purchased the DT is part of the Platoon, so must be the DT.

ToBeWilly wrote:Dedicated Transports have to be part of the Platoon, if the unit that purchased it is also part of the Platoon.

A DT does not exist without the unit that purchased it. If the unit that purchased the DT is part of the Platoon, so must be the DT.

So wait, if I destroy the unit that bought a DT, it is automatically stops existing? jk.

MULTIPLE UNIT CHOICES
Note that occasionally the Codexes allow the player to include several units in his army at the cost of a single force organisation slot (like dedicated transports, etc.). Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects.

Page 92, Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook

The Infantry Platoon entry on Page 96 of Codex: Imperial Guard is a 'Multiple Unit Choice'. The BRB gives a specific example of dedicated transports, but this rule equally applies to the Infantry Squad, Command Squad, and other Squads found under the Infantry Platoon entry.

The dedicated transports are purchased as part of a single choice: The Infantry Platoon. Hence, they are part of the Infantry Platoon.

The one compelling argument against this I've seen was that Page 96 of the IG Codex lists specific army list entries that make up the composition of the Infantry Platoon. I argue that the Multiple Unit Choice rule on Page 92 of the BRB still applies. The Infantry Squad when it takes a dedicated transport would be a Multiple Unit Choice, just like the Infantry Platoon is.

So really the Infantry Platoon entry is a Multiple Unit Choice containing Multiple Unit Choice selections.

The rule from multiple unit choices says "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."

The multiple unit choice rule ends the moment you buy the units. It was never meant to affect how units deploy in game.

edit: So for the platoon to contain the transports it should be in the platoon composition like all other units.

Good job the Platoon rules override this, by making even ENTIRELY separate units act as one unit for the purpose of deployment.

Remember specific > general? Think its been mentioned a couple of times...

part of the platoon.

"Dedicated transports
Dedicated transport vehicles sit outside the Force Organization structure, as they are attached to the unit they are bought for"

Hmmm, attached to the unit they are bought for? Sounds like if that unit is part of the platoon, then so are the DTs.

How are dedicated transports deployed for non-platoon units?*

Dedicated Chimeras should be handled in the same manner.

* he asked rhetorically

Yes. Yes they are.

So if chimeras are not part of the platoon, do they come in with no units inside of it?

You are saying that the infantry squads that have purchased (essentially as an upgrade) the chimera start the game on foot, without their transports even on the board (as an infantry platoon deploys together). Then the player must role seperatly for every chimera to arrive without the units the chimera was purchased for inside of it?

A chimera cannot be bought as anything other than a dedicated transport. So to say that they arrive seperately and act independently would be against that rule.

They have to be brought in with the platoon.

The IG platoon composition doesn't have a 0-X for commissars, so why do they need one for chimeras?

Those issues are covered by basic transport and reserve rules. No need for the chimera to be part of the platoon.

Especially if you are frightened to death by them .... We all know the real reason you won't stop with your campaign again this rule.
Once again, arguing for advantage is a cheap tactic, it's also a dishonest way to debate]

[quote=copper.talos from Warseer -.Anyway having 10 chimeras in the 24" line in DoW is a pretty OP thing. Just to think of the tank shocks, you having to deploy within 6" of the t-edge, the loss of maneuvering etc, being flooded with guardsman deep in your lines from the 1st round etc...

Just as I said in warseer, after a question on how this will affect playing DoW, I was pointing out how breaking the rules also means breaking the game.

The chimera has to be part of the platoon. It transports the squads it is bought for and deploys with them. The squad it is bought for deploys with the platoon, so the chimera deploys with the platoon

copper.talos wrote:Just as I said in warseer, after a question on how this will affect playing DoW, I was pointing out how breaking the rules also means breaking the game.

Good job it is neither breaking the rules nor breaking the game then!

Akroma06 wrote:Just like I stated in the thread on this subject. Yes they are apart of the platoon. They are an upgrade (albeit with different rules being a vehicle) just like a commisar or a HWT.

If that's true, then a chimera would be an upgrade to a company command section and therefore a part of that.
Its demonstrably not because of the dedicated transport rules, that is rules, not assumptions.

nosferatu1001 wrote:YOUR argument is that, despite the option for a Chimera appering on the Platoon page, they are not part of the platoon.

Your logic is deeply flawed.

Excluding platoons, the option for a chimera, exists on pages 90, 2x p92, 2x p94, 95 and p98.
When a unit buys (note a unit, not a platoon) a transport, it becomes a muc as defined in the rulebook.
Like a platoon.

It makes no difference!

3 of these unit options are hq's.
NONE of them can deploy in their chimeras in dow. Despite that they are muc's and are attached to their transports.

It makes no difference!

1 is a non-platoon troops unit that could, but that would be that for the 3 units allowed.

The faq allows a platoon to deploy as a single unit.
The dow rules demand that transports are considered to be a unit of their own, for purposes of deployment.
No-where in the (actual) rules does it say that a dedicated transport, is somehow part of what purchased it.
There is no contradiction between the faq and the dow rules in this respect.

What the (actual) rules do say, is that only the purchasing unit gets to deploy/come in from reserves aboard it and that it is considered to be of the same foc type (ie troops).
That's it, no more.

Apologies, couldn't resist, the ammount of personal insults for someone arguing from a reasonable standpoint is rather annoying.

fuusa wrote:
The faq allows a platoon to deploy as a single unit.

The first part isn't quite true, it doesn't count as a single unit. The wording is, "Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units." Nowhere does it say it's deployed as a single unit, an infantry platoon is deployed in place of a single unit." A small but vital difference. If the FAQ had said, "Each infantry platoon counts as a single unit for purposes of deployment" then there would be no argument, chimeras wouldn't be deployed because the wording does not contradict the DoW scenario's deployment. However because it says each infantry platoon is deployed IN PLACE OF, we now have a different meaning altogether from that wording. It means we have permission to deploy an infantry platoon, which includes vehicles, because we do it in place of a single unit. Now it may seem like a pretty big leap in logic that vehicles are allowed, but here's the reason behind it. Transports are vehicles that are purchased using the specific wording of(Pg 67 BRB under dedicated transports for this quote), "allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit." Dawn of War tells us that transports count as one of the units we deploy, however the ruling of the FAQ is, IN PLACE OF a single unit we may deploy a Platoon, and as chimeras are "selected together with the unit" we have permission to deploy them because if something is "selected together with" the platoon squad it is included unless you have a special rule that prevents it. In other words it is dawn of war that prevents the normal deployment of a unit with transport, but since the FAQ gives the platoon permission to deploy in place of a single unit.

fuusa wrote:
The dow rules demand that transports are considered to be a unit of their own, for purposes of deployment. No-where in the (actual) rules does it say that a dedicated transport, is somehow part of what purchased it.

See above where I quoted from page 67, if it is selected together with that means it is a part of though it may act independent of the squad.

Lone Dragoon wrote:Transports are vehicles that are purchased using the specific wording of(Pg 67 BRB under dedicated transports for this quote), "allowing a vehicle to be selected together with the unit." Dawn of War tells us that transports count as one of the units we deploy, however the ruling of the FAQ is, IN PLACE OF a single unit we may deploy a Platoon, and as chimeras are "selected together with the unit" we have permission to deploy them because if something is "selected together with" the platoon squad it is included unless you have a special rule that prevents it. In other words it is dawn of war that prevents the normal deployment of a unit with transport, but since the FAQ gives the platoon permission to deploy in place of a single unit.

I read BRB p67. I think your interpretation is a bit of a stretch. I clearly see two rules in the Dedicated Transports text box. A) "These 'dedicated transports' do not use up a slot on the force organisation chart," and B) "The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)" I don't see a clear rule here or in the new FAQ for changing the well established principle of DTs as separate units from the squad they are dedicated to.

Even if the phrase you want to see appears on the page as part of a different rule, you have to be careful not to twist their meaning beyond their context. As an over the top example, I might say that "The only limitation of a dedicated transport is that when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any independent characters)" indicates that the Chimera can now move an unlimited distance, because this specific rule cancels the general rule of vehicles moving 6" combat speed or 12" cruising speed. Context is important.

Lone Dragoon wrote:

fuusa wrote:
The dow rules demand that transports are considered to be a unit of their own, for purposes of deployment. No-where in the (actual) rules does it say that a dedicated transport, is somehow part of what purchased it.

See above where I quoted from page 67, if it is selected together with that means it is a part of though it may act independent of the squad.

I disagree sir. I have yet to see a smoking gun (conclusive proof) that a DT chimera for an Infantry Squad's in an Infantry Platoon is also part of the Infantry Platoon. I do not think the use of the phrase 'selected together' on p67 is any more convincing than 'attached to the unit they were bought for' was on p87. I think both phrases refer to list building / force org requirements and pre-game embarking limitations, not limited unit deployments such as Dawn of War. The PIS is clearly linked to the IP. The PIS is clearly linked to DT. The link between the IP and the DT has yet to be clarified.

The new language in the FAQ is already a clear change and boost to what the Infantry Platoon can do in DoW deployment. IMO, the closest thing there is right now to a IP / DT link is the 3rd sentence in the new FAQ entry. However citing this would be only one possible interpretation of an ambiguous inference. It makes more sense to me that this sentence is GW's fix for the abuse of IP squads embarking in Valkyries/Vendettas and rolling once to come in from reserves in one huge mob.

copper.talos wrote:The rule from multiple unit choices says "Apart from being bought as a single choice, these units operate and count as separate units in all respects."

The multiple unit choice rule ends the moment you buy the units. It was never meant to affect how units deploy in game.

edit: So for the platoon to contain the transports it should be in the platoon composition like all other units.

You have accurately described how the IG platoon rules (and all other multiple-unit choices) have worked with Dawn of War deployment for the past several years, since the day 5th edition came out.

This state has now changed for IG platoons, as they've just received a new FAQ giving them an exception. The exception allows the entire platoon to deploy in place of a single unit.

By my read, the Platoon entry in the codex includes transports, just as much as it does the command section and the infantry squads. I'm not enthused about it, but it seems clear to me.

OK lets take the faq sentence by sentence:
"Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place of a single unit in missions that limit the number units that can be deployed."
This sentence does not change what units make a platoon, so you can deploy all the units referred to the platoon composition as one unit but not their transports. They still are separate units and as so count towards the DoW limit.

Next:
"In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.”

So any units of the platoon that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport rolls separately. This is to prevent valkyrie squadron and vendetta reserve tricks. If this wasn't clarified you could argue that having 3 Infantry squads of a platoon embarked in valkyries, each belonging to a different squadron of 3, you can deploy all 9 valkyries with 1 reserve roll.

Now the instead part. This instead concerns "Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport". So it's instead of "any units in reserve that are embarked upon a dedicated transport". Reserve rules for dedicated transports, allow them and their unit to come using one reserve roll. No need for them to be part of a platoon for this. So all the units of a platoon, on foot or embarked in dedicated transports, are allowed to come from reserves with one reserve roll instead of those units that are embarked in the non-dedicated transports that have to roll separately. To conclude, this part of the FAQ doesn't imply or hint that the dedicated transports became one with the platoon, as you are able to follow the faq using just the transport rules.

copper making rules up wrote:This sentence does not change what units make a platoon, so you can deploy all the units referred to the platoon composition as one unit but not their transports. They still are separate units and as so count towards the DoW limit.

Not according to the Platoon rules theyre not. Transports are part of the platoon. You can keep repeating that they are not, but you lack significant rules ssupporting your view.

copper not understanding English sentence construction, or simply lying to try to achieve a point wrote:This instead concerns "Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport". So it's instead of "any units in reserve that are embarked upon a dedicated transport".

WRONG. This 'instead" is "instead of rolling once for the entire platoon, any units...upon a non-dedicated transport are rolled for separately"

Making dedicated transports part of the platoon

Again.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

copper making rules up wrote:This sentence does not change what units make a platoon, so you can deploy all the units referred to the platoon composition as one unit but not their transports. They still are separate units and as so count towards the DoW limit.

Not according to the Platoon rules theyre not. Transports are part of the platoon. You can keep repeating that they are not, but you lack significant rules supporting your view.

I disagree sir. Given the clear precedent of DTs not deploying freely with their units in DoW or any other FOC limited initial deployment and the general nature of 40k's permissive rules set, it is the PRO position that must provide "significant rules supporting your view." Right now, your strongest arguement seems to be that the word chimera appears in the Infantry Platoon entries of PIS and PCS. I do not find this persuasive given the precedent of DTs being "attached" and "associated" with the unit they are bought for, but NOT part of that unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

copper not understanding English sentence construction, or simply lying to try to achieve a point wrote:This instead concerns "Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport". So it's instead of "any units in reserve that are embarked upon a dedicated transport".

I realize you and copper have passed beyond the point of debate and are now well into an argument. I invite you to pause that argument as best you can and continue your debate with me or other individuals here. I cannot guarantee we will make any progress, but I can almost guarantee that a shouting match on a rules forum will achieve less.

nosferatu1001 wrote:WRONG. This 'instead" is "instead of rolling once for the entire platoon, any units...upon a non-dedicated transport are rolled for separately"

Making dedicated transports part of the platoon

Again.

Again sir, I disagree with you. As I stated in some of my above posts, I do think that the 3rd sentence in the new IG FAQ is potentially strongly in favor of the PRO position. It is potentially very strong since it is language not in the BRB or IG Codex, but in the "Official Update" to the IG codex. As Errata, it would "corrects any mistakes in the codex," thus any contradictions with BRB or original IG Codex might be explained away as corrections, not inconsistencies. My main problem with it is its ambiguous nature and positioning. As I said "The new language in the FAQ is already a clear change and boost to what the Infantry Platoon can do in DoW deployment. IMO, the closest thing there is right now to a IP / DT link is the 3rd sentence in the new FAQ entry. However citing this would be only one possible interpretation of an ambiguous inference. It makes more sense to me that this sentence is GW's fix for the abuse of IP squads embarking in Valkyries/Vendettas and rolling once to come in from reserves in one huge mob." Given two possible interpretations, I choose to interpret it as the least sweeping, but still effective rules change in keeping with GW precedent.

If this was a murder trial and I was a judge, I would see some evidence of guilt. I would find the defendant not guilty because the evidence was not conclusive.

If I were a vigilante, I would not kill the defendant in retribution. I might suspect he did it, but I don't know.

If I was a family member of the murder victim, I would no longer invite the defendant over for thanksgiving dinner or send them a christmas card.

The question isn't whether the Chimera is part of the same unit. It clearly is not.

The question is whether it is part of the platoon, which (per the new FAQ) is deployed entire, "in place of" deploying a single unit.

When I read the platoon entry, any transports taken seem to be just as much a part of the platoon as do the infantry squads.

Mannahnin wrote:The question is whether it is part of the platoon, which (per the new FAQ) is deployed entire, "in place of" deploying a single unit.

When I read the platoon entry, any transports taken seem to be just as much a part of the platoon as do the infantry squads.

Why? I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying you have not yet shown us your rule or reasoning.

If the IP were an Apocalypse formation, I believe I could make a strong case for the chimeras to be part of the formation. This is persuasive, but not conclusive, and in the end, not terribly helpful. I know of no rule defining an IP as an Apocalypse formation, and Apocalypse is an optional expansion. I would be interested, however, in hearing from anyone with knowledge and specifically a rules reference from Apocalypse showing that DTs are part of a formation. It may contain helpful language.

It may feel like it should include the transports but there are no rules to back it up.

In pg 89 under unit composition "Where applicable, this section will show the number and type of models that make up the basic unit, before upgrades are taken."

In pg 89 under options: This sections lists all the upgrades you may add to the unit".

There is no mention of chimeras in the platoon's unit composition, of options and they are also not part of the squads that the platoon is composed of. Also the FAQ doesn't provide a concrete ruling to add chimeras as part of the platoon.

I get why someone would think a "platoon" should include transports, but real life military units don't have to be the same as those in the game.

I do not believe there is anything called a "platoon unit." We need to be careful with our language here. I agree with the principle you are citing, but because IPs are not units (they are MUCs from p92 BRB), it is not a conclusive NO, thus leaving the door open for an argument to be made for the PRO position. But again, I am still waiting to here a clear and compelling statement of that argument.

I play guard often. I would LOVE to drop 12 chimeras before turn 1 in DoW and giggle as my opponent wet himself. But when he asks me "why, how, why?" I need to have a very good reason. "The FAQ is ambiguous and might allow it" and "a DT is very much like an upgrade and upgrades are included in the unit and a IP is chosen in the place of a unit" are not going to fly. I would be ashamed present those arguments.

Remember, it is very likely IMO that we on this forum take the rules waaaaaay more seriously that the folks at GW ever intended. In a way, arguing the rules can be its own sort of game. Fun and satisfying if done right, but like all games, there needs to be sportsmanship to help balance a competitive spirit.

Mannahnin wrote:When I read the platoon entry, any transports taken seem to be just as much a part of the platoon as do the infantry squads.

How?

What wording that deals with transports for platoon squads, in anyway differs from the wording for any other unit in the ig codex???

I voted yes, because when rolling for reserves it would be silly to get:

1x PCS, 5x PIS, 3x HWS

and

1 Chimera.

Unless they were all embarked, in which case, I still say yes because you pass your reserve roll and get:

6x Chimera, 3x HWS

This tells me that they're part of the platoon.

I just can't accept "it would be silly" as a compelling counter agreement from anyone other than GW.

I think it is silly that a Necron Harbinger of Despair can use it's Veil when coming in from reserve BEFORE it ever gets on the board. Nevertheless, it is GW's right to be silly with their rules. They are own them.

I created a games workshop account and e-mailed their customer service. It will likely be some time before I get a response, but I will post it here when I do. I am off to kill some orks with my necrons.

Why is it silly that you can use wargear to help you mvoe onto the board? People use jump packs to do that all the time.

There is no evidence that chimera are not part of the platoon. There is a large amount of evidence that they are. I'm going with the majority opinion on this.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I voted yes, because when rolling for reserves it would be silly to get:

1x PCS, 5x PIS, 3x HWS

and

1 Chimera.

Unless they were all embarked, in which case, I still say yes because you pass your reserve roll and get:

6x Chimera, 3x HWS

This tells me that they're part of the platoon.

This kind of emphasises why democracy in next to useless.

Please understand the difference between a transported unit arriving from reserve and the same troops or hq unit deploying in dow.

They are worlds apart.

nosferatu1001 wrote:There is no evidence that chimera are not part of the platoon. There is a large amount of evidence that they are. I'm going with the majority opinion on this.

What evidence, there is none???

foolishmortal wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:The question is whether it is part of the platoon, which (per the new FAQ) is deployed entire, "in place of" deploying a single unit.

When I read the platoon entry, any transports taken seem to be just as much a part of the platoon as do the infantry squads.

Why? I'm not saying you are wrong. I'm just saying you have not yet shown us your rule or reasoning.

.

How about because they are bought from the platoon entry?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

fuusa wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:When I read the platoon entry, any transports taken seem to be just as much a part of the platoon as do the infantry squads.

How?

What wording that deals with transports for platoon squads, in anyway differs from the wording for any other unit in the ig codex???

Where it's bought from. Chimera's for Infantry squad and PCS are bought from the platoon entries, chimeras for anything else are bought from their entires.

fuusa - apart from:

Where the vehicles are bought from (the platoon page)
MUC p92
The FAQ which only considers platoon and non-deicated transports, including dedicated transports as part of the platoon.

It doesn't mean that they are part of the platoon, just that non dedicated transports roll separately. Coming in with the platoon doesn't make the chimeras part of the platoon, it just gives the platoon a wicked sweet car to hang out in.

-cgmckenzie

fuusa wrote:

Mannahnin wrote:When I read the platoon entry, any transports taken seem to be just as much a part of the platoon as do the infantry squads.

How?

What wording that deals with transports for platoon squads, in anyway differs from the wording for any other unit in the ig codex???

It doesn't. If Veterans had a special rule or FAQ answer saying that the entire Force Org entry deploys in place of a single unit, they'd be able to bring their Chimera too.

don_mondo wrote:How about because they are bought from the platoon entry?
MY SNIP.
Where it's bought from. Chimera's for Infantry squad and PCS are bought from the platoon entries, chimeras for anything else are bought from their entires.

But, chimera's are bought from the unit entries of other choices all over the dex and (d-transports from) all over other dexes.
The only rules we have to apply, are the dedicated vehicle rules for reserves and the rules in dow.

What makes a dt different for a unit from a platoon from a unit outside of one???
Where is it? There is nothing.

No chimera is ever bought for a platoon. It's bought for a unit. A platoon may now be deployed as a unit, but it isn't one.

The unit may well belong to the platoon, but the dt rules tells us this doesn't matter in the least.

Beyond fixing the foc category it belongs to and who may deploy in it, there is no-connection between the two.

The "yes" argument seems to stem from "it's different because its a platoon."
No-where do the actual rules differentiate between units and units that are part of a greater structure.

On the contrary, they go out of their way, to limit dow deployment, along with transports, even those bought by a particular unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:fuusa - apart from:

Where the vehicles are bought from (the platoon page) Dealt with, that's nonsense.
MUC p92 By being able to include several units at a cost of 1 foc slot, that operate and count as seperate units in all respects? That is the exact definition of a company comm sec with a chimera. In your opinion, then, that would allow the ccs to deploy with its chimera???
The FAQ which only considers platoon and non-deicated transports, including dedicated transports as part of the platoon.

As for the last point, you mean the part that allows platoon units to deploy seperately in non-dedicated transports that can only come from outside the platoon?
That is, not deploy as if the platoon were 1 unit?

Back to the platoon, that is, not deploy as if it were 1 unit, in several transports because part of a unit cannot enter a transport?
Which in itself leads to the question, if a chimera is part of a platoon, if one unit is going to embark on another transport, or even that one in question, the chimera must also embark = BROKEN.

The RAW has broken. Stupid, stupid.

The simplistic reading of the faq that the majority favours does not work.
It relies on ignoring existing rules and substituting them for vague assumptions from the faq and their own GAP.

At this point, I think it may be proper, to divulge the armies that I run, so as to assure you, I am not arguing black is blue for personal gain.
I run, in 3000pnts, 3 serpent, rare falcon eldar, partially motorised chaos space marines (most variants) and a mostly footslogging renegade ig (though I now have access to 6 chimeras).

I do not have an axe to grind.
I simply cannot justify, deploying a platoon + d-transports, as it goes against the rules in dow and no-where at all in the faq or dex, it is justified that dt's are immune from the rules, no-where does it say they are part of a platoon.

Someone please answer me this ... which units from the platoon, can deploy in the dt chimera???

1) No, it is not nonsense. Covered that in the 10 page thread. Go there to argue, not the poll thread
2) No, because the CCS has no allowance saying it can - unlike a platoon
3) No, you are again failing at reading the FAQ. The FAQ covers that dedicated transports are part of the platoon. It does not say they are part of the unit. Creating idiotic strawmen an dthen claiming the RAW is broken is an unsafe argument.

Whatever - however stupid it may appear to be able to deploy that many models onto the field, you CAN do so and that is how I will rule it in my next tournament - barring another volte face from GW, of course.

nosferatu1001 wrote:1) No, it is not nonsense. Covered that in the 10 page thread. Go there to argue, not the poll thread.

Erm, you mean what I asked of you earlier, that was later seconded, but I got dragged back in by the bickering???

nosferatu1001 wrote:2) No, because the CCS has no allowance saying it can - unlike a platoon.

Where in the dedicated transport rules does it allow this?
You know those rules that govern units (however many deploy as one) +dt's deploy and not how platoons work, as stated in the faq, where dt's are not mentioned at all.

nosferatu1001 wrote:3) No, you are again failing at reading the FAQ. The FAQ covers that dedicated transports are part of the platoon.

Ummmm, where???

You are inventing stuff. Its all your own creation.
I would agree that it makes sense in a real world setting.
But, then so would letting 2 troops choices deploy in their transports, along with an hq in theirs.
Simple fact is, the rules do not allow this.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Creating idiotic strawmen an dthen claiming the RAW is broken is an unsafe argument.

Crap. You're implementation of it leads to game death, assuming you want to play according to the rules.

If you wish to impose the faq ruling, on a game, in and of itself, you must deploy a platoon in place of a single unit.
Try it with multiple transports, wanting to deploy in say 4 or more of them.
Tell me how you get on.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Whatever - however stupid it may appear to be able to deploy that many models onto the field, you CAN do so and that is how I will rule it in my next tournament - barring another volte face from GW, of course.

I DON'T CARE! Do not impose what may or may not be the motives of others on me.

i AM TRULY NOT INTERESTED IN WHATS BROKEN GAMES WISE OR NOT.
Apologies, caps lock gets stuck on this thing.

I want to know what the rules say, to be armed with how they may be interpreted.
I am an advocate of Culven's sig on warseer.
Understand what it says, so you know how to deal with it.

I am not happy with using tactics based on assumptions and half truths.
One thing I am happy with, however, is expressing my motives earlier, before the nosferatu spite machine started up.

I don't agree with you, you need to say something of substance to make me reconsider.

Also, I am a noob here, but not elsewhere.
I am a veteran of warseer and have spent plenty of time arguing with copper.talos.
He is, imo, frequently wrong, but here, most, that is most of what he says is quite right.

Ps, I doubt he knows who I am, as I use different nicks on different sites.

fuusa wrote:

don_mondo wrote:Where it's bought from. Chimera's for Infantry squad and PCS are bought from the platoon entries, chimeras for anything else are bought from their entires.

But, chimera's are bought from the unit entries of other choices all over the dex and (d-transports from) all over other dexes.
The only rules we have to apply, are the dedicated vehicle rules for reserves and the rules in dow.

This is not correct. The OTHER rule we have is the new rule, the new IG FAQ answer. That's what creates this new situation.

fuusa wrote: No chimera is ever bought for a platoon. It's bought for a unit. A platoon may now be deployed as a unit, but it isn't one.

The unit may well belong to the platoon, but the dt rules tells us this doesn't matter in the least.]

No, I think there is where you're confused. The Platoon isn't deployed "AS" a unit. It's deployed "in place of', or instead of, a unit. The FAQ is telling us that multiple units are being placed when normally only one would. The FAQ tells us which units- all the units within a single platoon. The IG Platoon codex entry lists a bunch of different units which are taken all together under that single force org slot. I can't see a clear basis on which to exclude any one of those units, given that the IG FAQ is telling us the IG player gets to deploy all of them.

"If you wish to impose the faq ruling, on a game, in and of itself, you must deploy a platoon in place of a single unit.
Try it with multiple transports, wanting to deploy in say 4 or more of them.
Tell me how you get on. "

Sorry, what?

The first part is from the FAQ - the entire platoon is deployed IN PLACE OF a single unit. They are NOT actually ever at any point in time ever ever ever a single unit, just deployed in place of one.

So, whats the issue? You have 4 chimera for 4 infantry squads. You deploy all of them, as they are ALL part of the platoon, IN PLACE OF a single unit - so you deploy multiple units in place of a single one.

Please try to make the tone a bit more polite. There's some really unneeded hostility in here.

So, on the assumption that Chimera's do not count as part of the platoon: As the platoon deploys instead of a single unit, could I deploy all of the Platoons Chimeras, as my other Troop choice in DoW? Why or why not? Again, this is based on a (possibly) inaccurate assumption.

I never said I was right, just why it would make sense to me.

Happyjew wrote:So, on the assumption that Chimera's do not count as part of the platoon: As the platoon deploys instead of a single unit, could I deploy all of the Platoons Chimeras, as my other Troop choice in DoW? Why or why not? Again, this is based on a (possibly) inaccurate assumption.

Per the new FAQ, all the units within that platoon deploy together in place of one Troops unit.

If the Chimeras are part of the platoon, then you could use your other Troops unit allowed to deploy something else. If the Chimeras are not part of the platoon, then you'd only be able to deploy one of them as your other allowed Troops unit, as all those Chimeras are all still individually units.

Mannahnin wrote:

fuusa wrote: No chimera is ever bought for a platoon. It's bought for a unit. A platoon may now be deployed as a unit, but it isn't one.

The unit may well belong to the platoon, but the dt rules tells us this doesn't matter in the least.]

No, I think there is where you're confused. The Platoon isn't deployed "AS" a unit. It's deployed "in place of', or instead of, a unit. The FAQ is telling us that multiple units are being placed when normally only one would. The FAQ tells us which units- all the units within a single platoon. The IG Platoon codex entry lists a bunch of different units which are taken all together under that single force org slot. I can't see a clear basis on which to exclude any one of those units, given that the IG FAQ is telling us the IG player gets to deploy all of them.

Here is the clear basis.

A) The infantry platoon is deployed in place of a single troops unit.
B) The Chimeras were bought with PISs and PCSs
C) The precedent is that a DT is not part of the unit it is bought for, it is a separate unit with very specific rules (Ex: about not costing a force org slot and only the bought for troops starting in it)
D) The fact that the Chimera is bought on the same page as the Infantry Platoon does not make it part of the IP. We have the precedent of a rhino being bought on the same page as a TAC squad
E) The NO position does not need a clear reason to exclude the Chimera from being part of the IP. Even if it did, "D" is a good start. The list of IP composition at the top of p96 also needs addressed. Remember, DTs are not a unit upgrade, and even if they were, an IP is not a unit.
F) Which takes us back to square 1. 40k is a permissive rule set. There is clear precedent for not having the DTs as part of the IP in DoW's initial limited deployment. To allow them we would need a solid, non-ambiguous reason.

A) Agreed.
B) Yep. Which are part of the platoon.
C) Sure, of course. The first of those rules you cited also applies to the Platoon Command Section, the Infantry squad, and every other unit in the platoon as well. Multiple Unit Choices.
D) But a Platoon is a totally different animal from a Tactical squad. A Platoon is inherently and always comprised of multiple distinct units. I can't see on what basis you're drawing a line between the Infantry Squad's Chimera and the Infantry squad itself, in terms of one being part of a Platoon and the other somehow not. They're both taken as part of the Platoon entry & Force Org slot.
E) Disagree. The FAQ answer says the whole platoon is placed. That's the permission, from the "yes" perspective.
F) As above.

foolishmortal wrote:
A) The infantry platoon is deployed in place of a single troops unit.
B) The Chimeras were bought with PISs and PCSs
C) The precedent is that a DT is not part of the unit it is bought for, it is a separate unit with very specific rules (Ex: about not costing a force org slot and only the bought for troops starting in it)
D) The fact that the Chimera is bought on the same page as the Infantry Platoon does not make it part of the IP. We have the precedent of a rhino being bought on the same page as a TAC squad
E) The NO position does not need a clear reason to exclude the Chimera from being part of the IP. Even if it did, "D" is a good start. The list of IP composition at the top of p96 also needs addressed. Remember, DTs are not a unit upgrade, and even if they were, an IP is not a unit.
F) Which takes us back to square 1. 40k is a permissive rule set. There is clear precedent for not having the DTs as part of the IP in DoW's initial limited deployment. To allow them we would need a solid, non-ambiguous reason.

Let's break down the wording of the last two sentences for the FAQ ruling,

In addition when making a reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole Infantry Platoon.

So if the infantry platoon is embarked on their transports, they are deployed as part of the "whole infantry platoon" on a single reserve roll. That means that some units that are not embarked, and more importantly, those that are embarked can be deployed on a single reserve roll for the "whole infantry platoon."

Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately.

Now look at the next sentence, Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead rolled for separately. That means that the only time that you roll separately for any unit in the "whole infantry platoon" is when they are in non-dedicated transports. Those two sentences taken together tell us that the "whole infantry platoon" consists of the units listed on page 96 of the IG codex, AND it includes their dedicated transports because the wording "whole infantry platoon" is being shown in this post to include them because the only time we roll separately is when a unit is in a non-dedicated transport. The wording shows that all the chimeras are actually a part of the platoon because we can arrive from reserve embarked upon them because we roll for the "whole infantry platoon" not the infantry platoon plus dedicated transport vehicles. If Chimeras weren't allowed to be placed with a single roll for the "whole infantry platoon", the last sentence would say, Any units in reserve that are embarked upon a transport are instead rolled separately. I feel the wording of the FAQ itself is pretty compelling evidence that transports are indeed part of the "whole infantry platoon."

sigh... I really wanted someone to find a convincing argument for this. Sadly, while I was reading lone dragon's response I came up with a very good NO position argument. Give a minute and I'll edit it in

Edit: more typing...

quickly, a response to Mannahnin

E) Disagree. The FAQ answer says the whole platoon is placed. That's the permission, from the "yes" perspective.

I'm not arguing that the "whole" platoon is not placed. I am debating what is the nature of the whole platoon.

and now for the sad death blow to a very good discussion. An Infantry Platoon has been a MUC for the last several years. As an MUC, the IP and the Chimeras for its PSCs and PISs take up one troops choice in the Force Org. This has not changed and is not being contested (at least by me) The point in question is whether of not the Chimera DTs purchased for the PSCs and PISs are part of the IP. I could not think of a precedent that would clearly answer that question until now.

When an IP comes in from reserves, if it's PIDs are embarked on their DTs, the DT rules bring the Chimeras in at the same time, even though they are a separate unit. If the PIDs or PCS are not embarked on their Chimera DTs, the empty Chimera DTs are rolled for for reserves separately from the IP, even though it has been the rule for the last 2-3 years that an Infantry Platoon is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves. Thus, there is a clear precedent for the Chimera DTs not being part of the IP. The new FAQ has no clear language to change this.

The rule in question is from p94 of the BRB
"Similarly. the player must specify if any transport vehicle
in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or
independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit
and the transport wilt be rolled for together and will
arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport
can only be deployed, and consequently can only be
kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it
was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

foolishmortal wrote:
When an IP comes in from reserves, if it's PIDs are embarked on their DTs, the DT rules bring the Chimeras in at the same time, even though they are a separate unit. If the PIDs or PCS are not embarked on their Chimera DTs, the empty Chimera DTs are rolled for for reserves separately from the IP, even though it has been the rule for the last 2-3 years that an Infantry Platoon is rolled for collectively when rolling for reserves. Thus, there is a clear precedent for the Chimera DTs not being part of the IP. The new FAQ has no clear language to change this.

I think the problem you're forgetting, is that transports are separate units in and of themselves. That's not the point that the people on the pro side of the debate are trying to point out. What you're trying to say is that, just because the unit isn't inside them, that means that they aren't part of the unit when it comes in. Let me counter by asking, is a squad of Melta Vets in a Vendetta the same unit? By your logic in the statement they are the same unit because reserve rolls are made that allow both to come on in a single roll. Putting a unit inside or outside a vehicle with transport capacity doesn't change the fact that they act independently once the game has begun. Remember, reserves come out when the game has already begun, and that is why, unless you are mounted inside you roll separately for unit and transport. At that point they are separate units able to operate independently of one another.

The reserve rules don't dictate whether a transport is part of a unit, it's the wording of the rule that dictates if a transport is part of a unit.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The reserve rules don't dictate whether a transport is part of a unit, it's the wording of the rule that dictates if a transport is part of a unit.

I disagree sir. IMO it is a clear precedent.

A) IP platoons have made a single roll to come in from reserves collectively for the past few years per the IG codex p96
B) Chimera w/ embarked troops have been included in that collective roll. Not because of being part of the IP, but because of p94 of the BRB
C) empty DT Chimeras have not been included in that collective roll, but rather rolled for separately, thus the precedent of DT Chimeras not being part of the IP

edit: I thought of another case we may be able to find precedent on. Al'Rahem's Platoon must outflank. If his platoon includes empty DT chimeras, than they can also out flank. How has that been played for the last 3 years?

edit: lol, a google search for "al'rahem outflank empty chimera" brought up our original 10 page thread. Props to DevianID for pointing this out back on 2012/01/20 23:11:09. We missed the significance of his very pertinent question.

foolishmortal wrote:
A) IP platoons have made a single roll to come in from reserves collectively for the past few years per the IG codex p96
B) Chimera w/ embarked troops have been included in that collective roll. Not because of being part of the IP, but because of p94 of the BRB
C) empty DT Chimeras have not been included in that collective roll, but rather rolled for separately, thus the precedent of DT Chimeras not being part of the IP

edit: I thought of another case we may be able to find precedent on. Al'Rahem's Platoon must outflank. If his platoon includes empty DT chimeras, than they can also out flank. How has that been played for the last 3 years?

First, the Al'rahem thing (at least where I'm from) WAS always been played that if they want the units disembarked, the chimeras still outflank, but enter on separate rolls from the platoon. Now on to the chimera questions.

I'll break this down quick;
1. The rules specifically state that all units not riding in their transports, are treated as separate units for reserve rolls. So, if a unit is NOT in its transport in reserves, they are treated as separate.
2. Refer to the "whole infantry platoon" that I posted earlier. We now have a rule that says the only time we separate units from the platoon is if they are in a non-dedicated transport.
3. As we have the new ruling, there is a change. The precedence no longer works because of the change. If the rule had not changed, the precedence would work, but because of the change everything is on a new slate and the original ruling is out the window.
4. Now that chimeras are part of the "whole infantry platoon" when we roll for everything together, they are included in that rule. So no longer do we have to roll separately for the chimeras and platoons, the new FAQ wording about the "whole infantry platoon" (remember that platoon is the more specific of all units) being deployed on a single roll. Specific overrides general, and the general rule is that All units treat transports as separate units. Specific rule paraphrased down from my other post about the platoon, is that chimeras are part of an infantry platoon and are now treated differently.

Lone Dragoon wrote:First, the Al'rahem thing (at least where I'm from) WAS always been played that if they want the units disembarked, the chimeras still outflank, but enter on separate rolls from the platoon.

I'm sure we can get many different people chiming in with many different ways of how they play this at their local tourneys or FLGS. I was happy when I thought of it because it was a searchable precedent that very likely had come up in previous rulings, thus giving us a precedent for whether or not DT chimeras are part of an IP.

Lone Dragoon wrote:
2. Refer to the "whole infantry platoon" that I posted earlier.

I don't follow your logic on this. Please give me a step by step

Lone Dragoon wrote:
We now have a rule that says the only time we separate units from the platoon is if they are in a non-dedicated transport.

I agree sir. Here is what the new language in the IG Codex update says. To quote...

Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”

This says that each IP is deployed in the place of a single unit. I agree, the 3rd sentence seems to be referring to a separating units from the IP (which is coming in collectively) if those units are embarked on non-dedicated transports. What it does not say is that empty DTs are rolled for collectively with the platoon, or that DT's are part of the platoon.

We do have a rule for that on p94 of the BRB
"Similarly. the player must specify if any transport vehicle
in reserve is carrying any of the infantry units and/or
independent characters in reserve. If they do, the unit
and the transport wilt be rolled for together and will
arrive together. Remember that a dedicated transport
can only be deployed, and consequently can only be
kept in reserve, either empty or transporting the unit it
was selected with (plus any independent characters)."

Surely this rule has come up in a GW tournament with an official ruling as to whether or not empty Chimeras are rolled for collectively as part of the IP. Come on TOs out there. Help us out with the reference.

foolishmortal wrote:
I don't follow your logic on this. Please give me a step by step

Reread my post that starts with, Let's break down the wording of the last two sentences for the FAQ ruling,

foolishmortal wrote:
I agree sir. Here is what the new language in the IG Codex update says. To quote...

Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”

This says that each IP is deployed in the place of a single unit. I agree, the 3rd sentence seems to be referring to a separating units from the IP (which is coming in collectively) if those units are embarked on non-dedicated transports. What it does not say is that empty DTs are rolled for collectively with the platoon, or that DT's are part of the platoon.

My stance to this is easily seen if you read the post I directed you to above in response to the first quote. By having chimeras included in the "whole infantry platoon" rolls, and deployment rules it actually makes sense (again my logic is from the earlier post, and shows why I believe the Chimeras are part of the platoon). The rule you quoted from p94, is the general rule, meaning that it applies to all units unless you have a rule that says otherwise. Now that the wording has changed (Mind you that part really isn't an FAQ, but an errata meaning it's a complete change of rules), we have a new rule for platoons that is more specific than the p94 wording. Remember, what's more specific all transport vehicles, or Infantry platoon transport vehicles?

Ah, I see where you were going with that. I do still disagree. As I have posted previously, I believe the 3rd sentence is in reference to embarking PISs and PCSs onto non-dedicated transports such as Valkyries/Vendettas. I believe it specifically excludes such PISs and PCSs from being part of the collective roll for reserves. Saying that it implicitly implies the inclusion of DTs into the IP seems to be quite a stretch, especially considering the earlier mentioned precedents of DTs not being part of the unit they were bought for and empty chimeras not being rolled part of the collective roll for the infantry platoon coming in from reserves.

Not implicitly - explicitly only non-dedicated transports count as being separate from the platoon, when they have a platoon member embarked. This is the single "instead" condition. To make DT not be part of the platoon you would have another "instead" condition listed, dealng with empty DT for the platoon. There isnt one, meaning the middle is not excluded - threre is no middle

At this point, we could continue to debate over GW's intent with the 3rd sentence of the new FAQ language, or....

I propose we examine existing rules and ruling for
A) empty DT chimeras outflanking with Al'rahem's platoon
B) empty DT chimeras rolling collectively for reserves with an Infantry Platoon.

If we can find a case where this was the official ruling since 2009, I will happily concede the NO position.

I did find a couple of relevant rulings in the INAT faq, but neither is conclusive IMO.

IG.64A.01 – Q: If a combined Infantry Squad
Outflanks via ‘Stalk the Enemy’, what happens to any
dedicated Chimeras assigned to those units?
A: Normally units outflanking with their transports must
arrive inside them, but since they cannot fit onto their
Chimera a combined Infantry Squad is allowed to arrive
outside of their vehicle(s) [clarification].
Ref: IG.57A.02

IG.64A.02 – Q: When Al’Rahem’s Outflanking
platoon arrives from Reserves, is a single roll made
to see which table edge the whole Platoon arrives
on, or is each unit rolled for separately?
A: One Reserves roll is made to see if the entire Platoon
arrives, but then each unit is rolled for separately to see
which table edge they arrive from [clarification].

These may be instructive, but in the end, they are from the INAT faq which is good, but not perfect.

I said yes, just because it makes sense.

The point of the Chimera is to transport the troops, they are part of the Platoon, as in any Military Hierarchy.

This is not the military, it's just a game with its own rules. A platoon in 40k doesn't have to follow real military platoon structure.

Concerning the faq. The second sentence of the faq can be followed in both cases as

1. with chimeras considered part of the platoon: the units, on foot, in chimeras and empty chimeras arrive together

2. with chimeras not considered part of the platoon: the units, on foot, in chimeras, but not empty chimeras arrive together.

The faq doesn't provide a clear ruling which case is right. You can follow one case or the other and follow the faq's ruling accordingly. The pivotal part is if the chimeras are considered part of the platoon in the first place. Since the faq doesn't provide a clear ruling on this, there should be another clear permission to include the chimera as part of the platoon. The MUC, dedicated transport rules and platoon composition, never give any such permission.

don_mondo wrote:How about because they are bought from the platoon entry?

Where it's bought from. Chimera's for Infantry squad and PCS are bought from the platoon entries, chimeras for anything else are bought from their entires.

Exactly, bought from all-manner of different entries, in exactly the same way, subject to the same rules.

Mannahnin wrote:This is not correct. The OTHER rule we have is the new rule, the new IG FAQ answer.

I think you misunderstand me.
What you need to justify "yes" is a new rule for platoon units to interact with their transports in a unique way, they never did before any differently to any non-platoon unit. The faq does not adress this.

Mannahnin wrote:No, I think there is where you're confused. The Platoon isn't deployed "AS" a unit. It's deployed "in place of', or instead of, a unit.

No, no confusion, just poor wording on my part.

Mannahnin wrote:The IG Platoon codex entry lists a bunch of different units which are taken all together under that single force org slot. I can't see a clear basis on which to exclude any one of those units, given that the IG FAQ is telling us the IG player gets to deploy all of them.

But, I'll say it again, the platoon cannot select chimeras, only the units can.
The way a unit interracts with its dedicated transport, is outlined in the rulebook.
Nothing here has changed.
The reason you don't get to deploy unit transports freely in dow, is because dow + dedicated transport rules say that.

Mannahnin wrote:D) But a Platoon is a totally different animal from a Tactical squad. A Platoon is inherently and always comprised of multiple distinct units. I can't see on what basis you're drawing a line between the Infantry Squad's Chimera and the Infantry squad itself, in terms of one being part of a Platoon and the other somehow not.

Granted, it is different.

But, platoon or not, what you really do have, in rules terms, are "multiple distinct units" selecting "multiple distinct units" in the form of transports.
They do this, in exactly the same way an hq choice would.
They are bound by the same rules, there is no difference.

The "instead" provides a clear case; there is no excluded middle.

The platoon arrives together; instead platoon members not in DT arrive with the non-DT

Good to see the overwhelming majority follow the rules.

At least in this case the poll does seem to be supporting the actual rules.....................

Sorry for double post, but I lost 1 in the eather and am paranoid.

Lone Dragoon wrote:
So if the infantry platoon is embarked on their transports, they are deployed as part of the "whole infantry platoon" on a single reserve roll. That means that some units that are not embarked, and more importantly, those that are embarked can be deployed on a single reserve roll for the "whole infantry platoon."

No change there then.

Lone Dragoon wrote: The wording shows that all the chimeras are actually a part of the platoon because we can arrive from reserve embarked upon them because we roll for the "whole infantry platoon" not the infantry platoon plus dedicated transport vehicles.

Nothing has changed.

foolishmortal wrote:sigh... I really wanted someone to find a convincing argument for this.

Welcome to the darkside, foolish one.

However, I don't want to poo on your epiphany parade, but "no" has been stating the difference between deployment in dow and reserves, since year dot.

Lone Dragoon wrote: By your logic in the statement they are the same unit because reserve rolls are made that allow both to come on in a single roll.

No! They are not one unit, they are rolled for and will arrive together.

Lone Dragoon wrote:The reserve rules don't dictate whether a transport is part of a unit, it's the wording of the rule that dictates if a transport is part of a unit.

The transport is never part of the unit that purchased it.

Lone Dragoon wrote:First, the Al'rahem thing (at least where I'm from) WAS always been played that if they want the units disembarked, the chimeras still outflank, but enter on separate rolls from the platoon.

Then you were playing it wrong.

As I said earlier, al's platoon must outflank. In order for a transport to outflank, it must be occupied by the unit that bought it.
This would mean, that if the chimeras are part of the platoon, the unit must be embarked.
If they are not, you have the freedom to arrive on foot.

Furthermore, if you played it as you have the choice, then subsequently allow empty chimeras to outflank, you would be playing as if chimeras were most definately not part of the platoon and yet were, which sums up this thread for me.

Lone Dragoon wrote:[1. The rules specifically state that all units not riding in their transports, are treated as separate units for reserve rolls. So, if a unit is NOT in its transport in reserves, they are treated as separate.

Not if its part of a platoon, its not and never has been.

nosferatu1001 wrote:To make DT not be part of the platoon you would have another "instead" condition listed, dealng with empty DT for the platoon. There isnt one, meaning the middle is not excluded - threre is no middle

No-one has to "make them" not part of the platoon, the rules in the book do that already.
Dt's are not mentioned, as they are already dealt with.

Tzarkahn wrote:I said yes, just because it makes sense.

The point of the Chimera is to transport the troops, they are part of the Platoon, as in any Military Hierarchy.

You said yes, because it makes sense, plainly not because that's how the rules work.
The point of an hq chimera, is to transport the hq.
In dow, it can't.

"In order for a transport to outflank, it must be occupied by the unit that bought it. "

That has no basis in the rules - or at least not such a general statement as you made.

A DT without scout / infiltrate can only outflank with the conferring unit inside, because thats how the rules work. But a DT that came with Outflank, like a Chimera in Al's platoon, can outflank just fine, with or without a unit on board.

Also - the rules in the book make them part of the platoon. Anything i buy from the Platoon page is part of the platoon, oddly enough.

nosferatu1001 wrote:"In order for a transport to outflank, it must be occupied by the unit that bought it. "

That has no basis in the rules - or at least not such a general statement as you made.

Well, as you know, that was in reponse to a quote about al rehems outflankers and even included his name, so ... shrug.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Also - the rules in the book make them part of the platoon. Anything i buy from the Platoon page is part of the platoon, oddly enough.

What book?

You are not paying attention to the rulebook, the source of rules for dedicated transports.
You are assuming that because the platoon consists of multiple units, that changes the way those units purchase their transports and that the rules for dedicated transports are, somehow suspended for them.

This seems to be on the grounds that units in platoons are "special" in regard to transports, as well as "special" in that there is more than 1 unit.

Its never written down anywhere, though.

You cannot show me any rules that make units that are part of platoons, either purchase their d-transports in anyway differently to the manner anything else does, or suspends the dedicated transport rules re reserves and deployment.

Except I have, and we've been through this

The GENERAL DT rules are superceded by the FAQ and the IG codex, due to the unique Platoon concept only found in the IG codex

ANYTHING I buy from the Platoon page is part of the platoon. To argue the contrary you are now having to prove that anything you buy, from commisars to autocannon, are part of the platoon.

Yet there are crystal clear rules* that allow any upgrades such as the comisar and the autocannon to be part of the platoon. The chimeras don't have any such rules at all

*IG codex pg 89 unit composition allows any upgrades to be part of theplatoon and options state that all the upgrades in a unit are listed under options. Under options one can find the comisar, autocannon etc. Not a chimera.

nosferatu1001 wrote:The GENERAL DT rules are superceded by the FAQ and the IG codex, due to the unique Platoon concept only found in the IG codex

There you go, like I said, you believe the platoon is special so it can.

The ig codex has had platoons deploying as a single choice on the foc all along.
The book trumps this, in dow, by demanding units be placed = "unique" platoon defeated by book.
Dow explicitly requires d-transports to be treated exactly in the manner that d-transports are supposed to be treated, ie seperate but "temporarily coexisting" as it were with its unit.

The faq allows the platoon to deploy in place of 1 unit.

Neither the codex, nor the faq deliver any special way for a platoon unit, to purchase a transport.
There is no difference in the mechanism of doing this, than there would be for vets, for eg.
The platoon cannot purchase a transport, only a unit can. The platoon does not exist, as far as the dedicated transport rules are concerned, they only treat the purchasing unit as relevant.

Neither the codex, nor the faq state that the platoon has any special rules at all in regard to transports. The platoon is an irrelevance.

So we get to I have a pcs, 2x infantry squads and a chimera.
Can I deploy any of my platoon units in the chimera?

If the platoon can take Chimeras as dedicated transports then they deploy with the platoon even in DoW. It is as simple as that. I fail to see or understand this argument as the grammar is....

The platoon can't take chimeras as dedicated transports, that's part of the point.

fuusa wrote:The platoon can't take chimeras as dedicated transports, that's part of the point.

Wat? Yes they can, it's under Options on all the relevant platoon pages.

Isn't there already a thread to debate this?

Oh yea, the thread this started from.

Keep repeating that they are seperate units in that thread, at least it sort of pretends to be relavent there.

And, yet again - anything I buy from the Platoon page is a part of the platoon.

Your entire argument is that you dont believe a DT bought as part of a platoon is actually part of the platoon

Now, given as apparently you dont believe the IG dex on this, there really isnt a lot further we can go here, is there?

Please, spam the other thread with the same circular argument, this poll thread has done its job nicely in showing that RAP and RAW are in happy coincidence, for a change

I see the disagreement here mostly as problems with semantics and assumptions. We all agree that the IG infantry platoon is a special MUC. The critical question seems to be, "In what way are they special?"

I believe they are special in exactly the ways described in the rules and rulings.

A) They are Multiple Unit Choice. The composition of those 'multiple' units is out p96 IGC and the nature of MUCs in general is described on p92 BRB.
B) Some of the units in the MUC (PISs and PCS) grant the player choice of purchasing additional units for their army, at no cost in FoC slots. The rules for such are detailed under dedicated transports BRB p67 + p87. The rules for the deployment of said DTs with or without the units they were purchased for are detailed on BRB p94
C) Thus, there are rules for how the IP is interacts with the PISs. There are rules for how the PIS interact with its DT. I have not yet seen a rule or ruling for the inclusion of DTs as part of an IP. The 3rd sentence of the new IG faq language tells us one circumstance under which a part of an IP might be excluded from the collective roll.

I agree that IPs are special. But lacking a rule or ruling on the inclusion/relationship of DTs in IPs, I must simply go by the rules I have. There is only need to interpolate more if the current rules fails to address some play situation. That has not happened here (yet).

I am relatively new here and a relatively new 40k player in general. I like to think of myself as fairly intelligent and fair minded. If presented with a logical, coherent argument for why something that is not explicitly allowed should be allowed, especially if it follows the spirit of previous rules and rulings.

I know there are many TOs and/or longtime players here. Surely you have in your extensive resources a reference to a rule or ruling on
A) empty DT chimeras rolling for reserves collectively with the IP or seperately
and/or
B) empty DT chimeras in Al'rahem's platoon outflanking or coming in from the player's edge.

We can argue semantics or we can find the answer.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Your entire argument is that you dont believe a DT bought as part of a platoon is actually part of the platoon

You accuse me of using circular aerguments and come out with that???

nosferatu1001 wrote:Now, given as apparently you dont believe the IG dex on this, there really isnt a lot further we can go here, is there?

I believe what IS written in the ig dex, paying little heed to the assumptions of people like you, who seem to see what they want and very little of the rulebook.

So, I will re-ask my question in the other thread.

foolishmortal wrote:We all agree that the IG infantry platoon is a special MUC. The critical question seems to be, "In what way are they special?"

I believe they are special in exactly the ways described in the rules and rulings.

Couldn't agree more.
Exactly as described and not imagined.

And, still - a vast proportion of people dont agree with you.

RAW and RAP apparently matching for a change.

Edit: yes, your argument is circular. It is based on the assumption that, just because you buy something for a platoon, it isnt a member of the platoon. ANd still, WRONG THREAD

I e-mailed the following to GW CS.

I am having some trouble understanding an entry in the new Imperial
Guard Codex Update (FAQ)

"Page 96 – Infantry Platoon, second sentence
Change to “Each Infantry Platoon is deployed in place
of a single unit in missions that limit the number units
that can be deployed. In addition when making a
reserve or outflanking roll, roll once for the whole
Infantry Platoon. Any units in reserve that are
embarked upon a non-dedicated transport are instead
rolled for separately.”

Does the 3rd sentence imply that DT Chimeras are part of the Infantry
Platoon for limited unit deployments like Dawn of War? Specifically,
in Dawn of War, can I drop 2 Infantry Platoons and 12 Chimeras as my 2
troops choices before turn 1?

I received the following answer...

Hello xxxxxxx,

Currently with this new change I believe that you are correct. Now if you're playing in tournament or some special event that you will need to speak with the organizer to see how they plan to rule that specific question. Should you have any other questions give us a call at 1-800-394-4263 and we will work to get them answered.

Thanks!

xxxxxx xxxxxx
Games Workshop Customer Service

Please do not delete previous email threads as this will help us serve you better!

Games Workshop
Customer Service
6211 East Holmes Road
Memphis, TN 38141
Games Workshop Customer Service is open:
Monday through Friday 9:30 AM to 6:00 PM CST
Contact info:
1-800-394-4263
custserv@games-workshop.com

I then called the 1-800 number and spoke with a different customer service rep. I received the same answer.

I asked about Al'rahem outflanking with empty transports.
I was told they outflank also, empty, because they are part of the platoon which must outflank.

I asked about an IG IP in reserve with empty chimeras.
I was told its all one roll for when they come in because the empty chimeras are part of the IP

The person I spoke with claims to have played 40k at GW for 10 years as well as playing IG personally.
While a phone call or email to customer service is not an official ruling, this is good enough for me.

I will now yield the NO position (some other person might pick it up, don't get burned)

I will now begin contemplating how to best use this new-found tactic. BWAhahaHAhaha

foolishmortal wrote:I then called the 1-800 number and spoke with a different customer service rep. I received the same answer.

I was initially reading the post but hearing the teacher's voice from Peanuts, then I read this bit and laughed.

Trustful cynicism at its finest.

For me this ultimately boils down into a giant "makes no difference to me.
I usually have 1 plattoon: 1 PCS with Chimera, 2 PIS, 1 HWT.
So I deploy the PIS and HWT as normal, then deploy the PCS (as part of the Platoon deployment) in their Chimera; the Chimera being the 2nd troop choice.

Now, for the guys that go FootGuard and have Plattoons of 5 squads each with a Chimera...this can be huge.

foolishmortal wrote:The person I spoke with claims to have played 40k at GW for 10 years as well as playing IG personally.
While a phone call or email to customer service is not an official ruling, this is good enough for me.

I would have to say that is as close to an official ruling that you can get without speaking directly to the codex/FAQ/rule creators as you can get. It's better than anything I've heard from any of these arguements so far.

GW rules can be interpreted in a number of ways, and sometimes these differences cause arguements (case in point, this thread). But to hear what the original intention is then it sets everything clear.

Thanks for that.

Thank you

Now can we lock it?