I am consistently impressed by the capabilities of the Newcron codex, and in the ongoing quest to hammer the crap out of the book, I present to you yet another build to smash to pieces.

Jumpcrons or Speedcrons

The dex features a lot of highly mobile units that, each in their own way, can deliver a fair amount of hurt to their enemies. I'd like to focus on spamming mobility and then seeing where it takes us. Jump infantry has the ability to dictate the terms of engagement and deliver shooting attacks from all angles, and I'd like to see if a jump list can hang in the current meta.

The units that may or may not become central to the build:

Destroyer Lords: Highly cost effective, resilient, and capable of hiding in other jump units or solo-wrecking av14 vehicles, going toe to toe with ICs and MCs, and weathering fistfights with msus. Naked, they don't seem bad at 125, but when bolstered with MSS or a Weave, they get pretty dangerous.

CCBLords: So cost effective, it would seem a shame not to consider them, highly mobile and highly deadly, great heat sinks, and cheap enough to employ as kamikazis to keep the fight where you want.

Triarch Praetorians: These things seem to constantly be floating in a state somewhere between excellent and terrible, we'll look at them armed with both weapon options to see if there's a way we can make them work.

Night Scythes: When it comes to mobility, you can't do better than a supersonic transport; it doesn't hurt that it has a killer anti-infantry gun that can stunlock vehicles, capable of firing on the move.

Destroyers/Heavy Destroyers: Another set of jump infantry that has dubious effectiveness, nice armaments though. Great nest for a destroyer lord, who can bolster them with a resorb before breaking off to countercharge/kamikazi.

Wraiths: What's left to be said about these things? Pure awesomesauce.

Tomb Blade: Faster than a speeding Destroyer, more shooty than a warrior phalanx, and cheap as dirt for a unit with Ressurection protocols, the only drawback these things have AFAIK is the fact that they take up precious fast attack slots.

Doom Scythe: A beastly alpha strike in a supersonic package, probably the biggest bullseye in the codex, maybe we can find a way to get them to last for more than 1 or 2 turns?

As usual, annihilation barges and the ubiquitous scarab farm may or may not have a place in this build. I'm sure we can figure it out.

The premise:
With superior mobility and a lot of shooting, we can put a stop to the average MSU list without breaking a sweat, avoid Assault armies and death stars, and stay out of the effective range of mid-range shooting lists like GK. The goal, a list that can harass and weaken enemy armies without putting itself in harms way, then close for a kill with some fast assault units.

Historical examples: The Mongolian Horse Archers that dominated asia, the Assyrian hurricanes on horseback, the Ethiopian and Zulu armies of antiquity that gave the greatest generals in history a serious run for their money.

I think the biggest issues with tomb blades is not the fast attack slot. Really I would have no issue using the fast attack slot, if the squad size was not a pathetic 5. That is the real issue. The upgrades are overpriced, the s6 blast is useful but only versus some armies and even then the enemy can spread out. But the base guys are awesome all the time with gauss, its just you only get 5 of them.

As for scarabs, if you are talking about speed I feel you must mention the 27.5 inch charge range scarabs with 1+ spyder have. Its potentially 50% greater than Wraiths 18 inch charge range. Now of course the Wraiths ignore terrain, which must be mentioned so we know the Wraiths have a guarenteed 18, while scarabs may only have 7.5 inches if they roll nothing but 1's for all their movement rolls.

Right, Wraiths and Scarabs are killer units. Does that completely preclude the option of taking Destroyers/tomb blades?

at 1850 you can field a small army of:
2 destroyer lords (well equipped)
5 praetorians
8 regular destroyers and 7 heavy destroyers
2 warriors in night scythes
1 immortal in night scythe

I really do wish that Destroyers were elites...

I think my issue with regular destroyers right now is that a royal court in an ark seems better if you want s5 ap3. 5 regular crypteks with a borrowed ghost ark is 240. You get everliving, and 15 s5 ap3 shots, plus the ghost ark is pretty good too. 6 Destroyers for 240 have a better range (24 versus 12), but not better speed really (12 inch move on both the ark and destroyers), and only get 12 s5 ap3 shots.

As for tomb blades, I think that they are better for smaller point games so the harsh cap of 5 doesnt matter, filling the role you would have wanted destroyers to do, but at half the cost. So at 1500, I can see running 10 scarabs and 2x5 gauss tomb blades, as this is only 350 points. If you only have 350 points and wanted wraiths, you get 10 naked, and at that point the rapid fire of the twinlinked gauss tomb blades + 10 scarabs for assault just seem better than wraiths.

The setup seems solid. if you want a proper speed-spam then take a look at this:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/431262.page

Nids, I have never seen a game played at that level, nor would I know where to find one. What's your local arena like?

In all the games I've played with the new codex, I fill every FA slot every time, no matter what kind of army I'm throwing on the table, mostly because the options are very flexible. Destroyers are pretty damn expensive, but in my experience have always paid for themselves against 3+ armor opponents. I recently stomped a Marine army using 2 units of 5 and a unit of 3 Heavy Destoyers, combined with a Tremorstave-WW based army(maximizing my mobility and denying my opponents). Taking a unit of Wraiths backed by a tricked out Destroyer Lord can tear almost anything apart, and can make it accross the table in one piece, plus make for an excellent distraction. Night Scythes are an iffy thing for me, you basically have to use turbo boosters to get where you are going, because if it gets blown up the unit has to come in from the table edge, or your very expensive floating target of a Monolith. As far as gunships are concerned, Annihilation Barges offer more firepower and better armor for 10 points less, but you do sacrifice that mobility. All in all, I think a mobile Necron army is possible, but it gets very expensive in points cost, and seeing how Necrons are already an epensive army to field, it takes careful consideration.

junk wrote:Nids, I have never seen a game played at that level, nor would I know where to find one. What's your local arena like?

I did say in the post i linked that I didn't intend to play the list. I made it as a pure "fill it all" speed spam list. My FLGS is 2000 - 2500 for an average game, 2250 for a tournament.

I'm going to get it out of the way now, and say Triarch Praetorians are pretty bad.

I tried a bunch of games with them. Both weapon configs, Dlord/No Dlord and came to the conclusion, that I'd rather take Wraiths, every time.


Wraiths pretty much Mititgate every issue the Praetorians have. I2? Whip Coils. Ap 1-3? Invul. Volume of fire? 2 Wounds.

I generally love the Dlord, but I only take him at 1500 or less. I think you really start wanting that second court when you get up in point levels. He is wreckingball, that's for sure.

I think Jy2's "MTO" Necrons is probably the best example of a speed based Cron list.

Sasori, its funny you say that, because recently I have been considering Praetorians instead of wraiths. Wraiths charging a vehicle has been a major letdown for me, bolter weapons and melta weapons both do more wounds to wraiths than Praetorians, and if I use Praetorians in place of wraiths I also get more slots for scarabs.

I understand that Praetorians are not amazing, but so far I have found that Wraiths are barely cutting the mustard. I need to play more games with my list to get a better feel for wraiths, but so far they havent added anything over scarabs despite costing more. And the second wound plus t4 constantly gets exploited via instant death.

I agree, Jy2's list is pretty stellar.

I can't really come to the defense of praetorians because they're made redundant by wraiths and destroyers. If they had an extra statline attack, or an invulnerable save, or they were 10PPM cheaper, I'd think they were incredible.

Still the need for a unit that fills that role arises once all the fast attack slots are full (and they fill up fast). I'm underwhelmed by the elite choices in the codex, with the exception of Flayed Ones and Deathmarks which most definitely have their uses in other builds.

I suppose this brings us to the question that can end this thread right now.

Is it worth NOT taking wraiths/Scarabs in order to take Destroyers/Tomb Blades?

If the answer is "Wraiths and Scarabs are just better" then we can pretty much jump ship on this idea, unless someone comes up for a justification for using praetorians.

As far as I can tell, an aggressive list like Scarab Farm / Wraith Wing, or scythe spam, or JY2's hybrid MTO list simply works better than any variant involving tomb blades and destroyers.

Still, 15 naked tomb blades is only 300 points, If I just wanted an enormous warrior phalanx, I might be tempted to run 15 tomb blades and 3 annihilation barges, 570 points I can easily write off, leaving a huge balance for troops and courts.

Wow, off topic, sorry.

Anyway, Anyone come up with a defense for Praetorians? Maybe a list featuring 20 praetorians and 2 RezOrb D.Lords?




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ninja'd by DevianID.

There's a lot of different options to play with when using speed Crons.

Praetorians: Maybe their abilities aren't justified by their points cost. Their T5 is mitigated by poison weapons, no invulnerable, low I. Buffs include Fearless, RP (when combined with a res-orb even better) and rending entropic strike attacks. It seems Wraiths compete for the exact same role and perhaps the Wraiths are better at it.

Wraiths: Stars of the codex. Great all-comers. High S great for tank hunting. Many attacks great for hordes. Good inv. save, wound allocation, no diff/dan terrain tests. Need complementary units (I feel), or else they get hung out on their own and maybe get taken out if there are no other targets.

Night Scythes: Can't beat the mobility and damage output in my opinion. And if you attach Veilteks to whatever units are inside you don't lose the mobility once the vehicle is gone either.

Doom Scythes: I don't think there will ever be a situation where they aren't taken out Turn 1or 2. They are that dangerous. That said you can make it more difficult for your opponent by taking other fast threats. CC Barge Overlords work well here with Wraiths and others.

I personally prefer Pure Scythes at 1850pts over Wraiths, but that just works for me. I'm sure jy2's MTO Necrons are a great competitive list and I guess that comes down to a difference in playstyle.

As far as I can tell praetorians still make excellent anti-Msu units. A full squad with Rods can leap into killing range, unload a fusillade of armor piercing rounds and clean up in assault. They can handle small arms fire reasonably well thanks to their t5, and are somewhat effective on the charge thanks to their s5 and power weapons.

With vb/pc they can wreck both light and heavy armor with ease; either popping transports and eating the meqs inside or shredding av14 vehicles with 30 entropic rending attacks.

The flaw is that in order to do this, they need a 400 point investment, which means that the rest of the army has to be cheap enough to afford them. You'll also want to keep a Dlord with them to carry their resorb and lend some mss to the fight.

Now we can cheapen the army by running 15 tomb blades to provide mobile fire support- diversifying their loadouts for different duties - one with beamers, one with tesla, one with gauss. 300-350 points.

Annihilation barges also provide some excellent, inexpensive fire support, 270 points for a lot of firepower.

Just for argument's sake, what if we try 20 praetorians at 800 points, 2x175 point dlords, and 270 points worth of barges, 300 points in tomb blades, and 2 minimum warrior squads at 130. That's an 1850 list that is super aggressive, very well armed, and insanely fast.

Yay or nay?

DevianID wrote:Sasori, its funny you say that, because recently I have been considering Praetorians instead of wraiths. Wraiths charging a vehicle has been a major letdown for me, bolter weapons and melta weapons both do more wounds to wraiths than Praetorians, and if I use Praetorians in place of wraiths I also get more slots for scarabs.

I understand that Praetorians are not amazing, but so far I have found that Wraiths are barely cutting the mustard. I need to play more games with my list to get a better feel for wraiths, but so far they havent added anything over scarabs despite costing more. And the second wound plus t4 constantly gets exploited via instant death.

How are they not destroying Vehicles? At base strength 6, Wraiths should be wrecking most vehicles pretty hard, since the majority have AV 10 rear. I wouldn't throw them at a Land Raider, I have Warscythes for that.

Do you also use wound allocation? I've taken a lot of strength 8 fire on them before, but usually I can mitigate most of it, with wound allocation.

The big problem with Praetorians, is a single round of shooting, can kill a squad of them, without that much effort. The T5 helps, but it's only going to do so much. In close combat, they swing before Fists, but after almost everything else.

Voidblades are better at killing Vehicles than Wraiths, but they are worse at killing anything else. Wraiths have more attacks, better strength and the same WS, they also have the chance to swing first against a big chunk of the unit.
Then comes points cost, I can get a full wound allocation squad of 6 wraiths, for 250 points. 6 Praets would cost 240. I just get so much more for 10 more points.

I'm not saying to not give them a shot, but I did, and found them wanting. Wraiths have really done so much better for me.

Another point to consider is that by having an entirely meched army in Scythes gives your opponent nothing to assault, even if they blow-up your transport. Wraiths, while awesome, give S3/4 something to shoot at and while it may not be effective, they can still do damage and it's something dedicated assault units can hit on better than a 6.

For me when designing a fast list you should be utilizing every major strength that it grants you. This would include:

- running rings around a slower opponent
- late game contests in objectives
- able to keep damaged units away in KP missions

Praetorians shine against Walkers where Wraiths have a tendency to get bogged down, but unless it's a dedicated cc walker you may as well use scarabs. Would love to find a use for the Praetorians though. Perhaps in larger games with 30 Praetorians and 18 Wraiths?

I know Preatorians seem great on paper, but I have never SEEN nor HEARD of them doing anything more than doing poorly in assualt and/or being wiped in a turn of shooting.

Tomb Blades however, with twin-linked gauss of tesla, particle beamers, RP and the upgrades they can get, ROCK infantry(I'm not so sure about tanks) and will throw off an opponent that expects slow necrons

Heh, not sure who will be expecting a slow necron list. Its seems quick enough to me.

Have played half a dozen games vrs Crons with Wraiths and it is easy enough to whittle them down as Lukas says with the lower strength guns. They do need to be killed to the last one as even 1-2 can wreck havoc if ignored.

I can imagine this might be fun and effective;

D Lord MSS
CCB Lord
Cryptek w solar pulse
3 x Praetorians
2 x MSUwarriors in NS's
3 x Wraiths with wound allocation

Its a really simple recipe. 1 turn of NF to close, no HS to feed the points into the Wraiths and Praets, CCB is there for the efficiency and the pulse, as are the NS's which could be dropped or increased if troops is really worrying.

That may be MTO ;-P. The main part of the army is what Nids wish they could do.

Haven't got a codex, what would be the cost?

@cmac: At a glance, i'd say a solid 2000 point list, but alter warriors to immortals in NS's. they're just better

junk wrote:Anyway, Anyone come up with a defense for Praetorians? Maybe a list featuring 20 praetorians and 2 RezOrb D.Lords?

Hows this:
A list that runs two DS squads of 10 voidblade/particle caster Preatorians w/ a Rez Dlord will butcher anything, even a LR. The voidblades strike (1 attack base, 1 for charge, 1 for PC (its a pistol, pistols = offhands) ) so thirty attacks on a LR will lower its AV to say 8-10? A warscythe @ S7 2D6 amour pen will penetrate that.

if you pull this off landing behind some castled guard, he shouldn't drop AP3 templates for fear of scattering onto his own troops leaving you vs some flashlights and flamers (note- a Leman Russ will replace the Land Raider in this example)

Wraiths don't lower AV.

Waddya think?

I posted some of this in our WW thread, but this is the core I've been playing with some time for a fast jump list with TPs:

Nemesor
DLord w/MSS/RO/SW (190)
10 TPs VB/PC
2 Groups of TBs (4 to 5 each) with Shadowlooms (and probably Gauss, but depends on what is needed for the rest of your list)

General strat is turbo the TBs to create to two 2+ cover wall screens for the TPs+DLord, and then drop Stealth on the TPs+DLord.
They now have a 3+ cover safe to go along with T5, RP 4+ and the 2+ DLord save, making it highly unlikely they'll get wiped in one round of shooting.

The things that have been really driving this list for me (particularly going with TPs over Wraiths):

They are a huge unit, which means you'll get more mileage out of Nemies buffs then you ever could on 6 Wraiths. 30 Rending Entropic Attacks + 10 Pistol shots being buffed with Tank Hunter = Dead Tanks, and lots of them (not to mention what the DLord is swingin).

They don't use an FA slot, freeing up the TBs which I think are a fantastic unit thats only really knock is competing against Wraiths and Scarabs.

10 TPs screaming down the field with a DLord running point just looks real secsie.

To augment them I sprinkle in as much Tesla Destructors and Gauss as I can fit (to present the TPs and Dlord with as many imobed/stunned vehicles as possible), with plenty of AV 13 as I think the AV13 pseudo shares target saturation with the TPs T5 bodies. If I get a free sec at lunch I'll post my full 2K list, or at least what it currently exists as.

Thats something I wouldn't like to fight

Wow, good call on the stealth shield; I never considered that... I think you have just made me fall in love with tomb blades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If a 2+ cover save is providing cover to another unit, does that unit also benefit from the 2+ or are they merely getting a 4+?

junk wrote:Wow, good call on the stealth shield; I never considered that... I think you have just made me fall in love with tomb blades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If a 2+ cover save is providing cover to another unit, does that unit also benefit from the 2+ or are they merely getting a 4+?

No just a 4+, god that would be awesome if it worked that way, but what I meant to imply is they themselves would be a 2+ cover and they would provide LOS blocking so that the TPs could get Stealth from Nemie and get a 3+ cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So this is what I'm toying with at the moment:

HQ
185 Nemesor
190 DLord w/MSS/RO/SW

ELITE
400 TPs VB/PCs

TROOPS
115 GA
117 9 Warriors
25 StormTek

115 GA (Nemies Unit)
104 8 Warriors
65 DestroTek+SP+Gaze

115 GA
104 8 Warriors
25 StormTek

FAST ATTACK
120 4 Gauss Tomb Blades w/Shadowlooms
120 4 Gauss Tomb Blades w/Shadowlooms

HEAVY SUPPORT
90 AB
90 AB

1980.

The last twenty points have been a bit of a bugger. Options I've played with are, drop Gaze of the PulseTek and add another TB, upgrading 5 warriors to Immortals for a backfield claimer, adding the anti assault thingy to one of the stormteks and then ?? with the other ten?


Notice the use of the stormteks in the GAs. My thinking behind this is three fold, A.) Depending on how you rule vehicle movement, the Stormtek has an effective 25+" threat range, which should be plenty sufficient. B.) moving and disembarking in this fashion gets the GA's up the field in a hurry, which makes their fire power significantly more deadly, and make the warriors a target, which I think I like. Ideally I kind of want the warriors getting shot at, provided they are not getting wiped. C.) The Stormteks staff is ideal for stun locking vehicles, which plays perfectly into the TPs hands.

Well - I actually think this concept might be a wash because necron troops are always going to be an anchor unless they're crammed in night scythes. If necrons had a scoring jump unit that would make this a valid concept, but as it stands, there's nothing to this build other than trying to make praetorians work.

I'll try out 15 tomb blades and 20 praetorians with 2 DLords as a goof in my next game to see if there's anything to it, but I think we'd be better off exploring other options.

Warriors in GA's are reasonably manoeuvrable. The other bonus of the G's is they provide plenty of cover terrain to hide Tomb Blades behind once they have "delivered" their Triarch Praetorian cargo.

A Night Scythe delivering 10 rapid-firing Guass Immortals and a StormTek on top of a tank will definately stun-lock or even immobilise it.
If you get lucky even destroy it, but the the TP's need to go somewhere else.


Heres another idea. Have a 10-man unit of Lychguard w/ Shields march across to the enemy like a wall with the TPs walking behind it. Once the Lychguard get Assaulted, the TPs can just jump over the combat and kill the vehicle that the squad that assaulted the guard disembarked from

10 Lychguard + 10 Praetorians is still 800 points.
It would be more cost effective to use 2 monoliths instead of 10 lychguard.

yeah but that'd mean less AB's.

And 10 Lychguard with shields is 450.

I seriously need to think lower points than my FLGS standards don't I, cos none of my ideas have been cost effective.

Ha, yeah... Think 1850.

Right. Hide the TP in reserve and have a monolith spit them into the midst of things.

OR

Deep strike them

Since high mobility is the idea behind this, why not introduce veilteks into the equation. I think that would be something to consider.
The way I see it is your opponent would be focusing on trying to counter either tomb blades or DLords or Wraiths or what not. In the meantime, the veilteks would provide an element of chaos into the fray. Perhaps use a squad of Tesla immortals with a VoDTek as a distraction, and keep the opponent's focus divided, and use alternatively both as bait and as a contender within the army. Two of these units would cause potential havoc.
I apologize, as I haven't read all of the posts yet, and I haven't considered the point cost yet.

@Dr. Tremujin: That is a good idea, but two veilteks require two overlords/ics, as you cant get Royal Courts from destroyer lords unfortunately

Right; but Monoliths aren't out of place, because they can deep strike and teleport units around. Maybe we can make it work with liths?

I suppose two DS liths landing behind you spewing out 10 Immortals will do some damage

I also like double monoliths as an answer for terminators the double gate will remove 3/5 models; and force terminators to assault the monoliths rather than softer units, making them available for more shooting the following round, plus, as LOS blocking, Jump infantry can hide behind them on approach and leap over them when it's time to engage.

Want to take a crack at the list?

junk wrote:I also like double monoliths as an answer for terminators the double gate will remove 3/5 models; and force terminators to assault the monoliths rather than softer units, making them available for more shooting the following round, plus, as LOS blocking, Jump infantry can hide behind them on approach and leap over them when it's time to engage.

Want to take a crack at the list?

Out of curiosity, how do you field your monos? I would like to use them again, but I am finding it difficult in deploying one without the risk of mishapping or getting lazed to death.

I must say, I'm not really feeling the Praetorians in a speedy necron list. They are overpriced, their shooting is just too short in range and they're not good against mech lists. Now you can swap out their rod for VB+PC, which makes them slightly better against vehicles, but now you're making them a subpar I2 assault unit that just cannot hold their own against similarly priced units (i.e. 10 assault terminators, any 10-man GK unit, etc.). I just see Fail all over as a consistent and reliable necron threat. They are just not an efficient unit for their cost, and they don't excel in whatever they do.

Monoliths also don't belong in such a fast, necron army. They are the antithesis of fast. They are perhaps one of the slowest units in all of 40k, being able to move only 6" per turn. Yeah, you can deepstrike them to get them where you want. However, this takes away from one of the greatest traits of a fast army - their flexibility. Once you deepstrike them to a particular location, basicall you've committed them and cannot make any changes. What I envision for speed is flexibility like mechdar or DE - to be able to change your position at the drop of a dime. As such, I see doom scythes and night scythes as the ideal vehicles in such a list. They provide the ultimate flexibility in relocating your units quickly. And they've got good firepower to boot.

Finally, the tomb blades. I like their speed. I like their firepower. I like the unit itself. Unfortunately in the 4 games that I've played with them, they haven't lived up to expectations. Partially because my opponents were too afraid of them and focused on them. Partially because I forgot they had RP. I think that this unit has a lot more potential than the Praetorians. However, understand that it is a fragile unit and a support-fire unit. You have to play them carefully or you will lose them quickly. I recomment the particle beamers and shadowlooms on them. It does make them kind of expensive but with T5, RP and a 2+ turbo-boost cover, they are quite survivable as long as they are not assaulted and they can hurt infantry, especially if they are clumped out (i.e. just disembarked from a transport). And they are a bullet magnet that will relieve some of the pressure from the rest of your army. I still think that they are a worthy unit to include in a fast army. However, in terms of efficiency and overall flexibility, nothing beats the wraiths and scarabs in the necron FA slots.


Besides my MTO or pure Wraithwing necron list, I would consider a speedy 2K necron list as follows:


Scythe Overlord on CCB - 180
Scythe Overlord on CCB - 180

4x Lance-teks - 1x Pulse - 160
4x Lance-teks - 1x Pulse - 160

5x Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5x Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5x Warriors - Night Scythe - 165
5x Warriors - 65

10x Scarabs - 150
5x Wraiths - 3x Whips, 1x Pistol - 210
5x Wraiths - 3x Whips, 1x Pistol - 210

Annihilation Barge
2x Spyders - 100

It's not purely a speedy necron list. That's because such a purist list is just not balanced enough. What it is is a balanced list that incorporates a lot of speed, good shooting and some counter-assault. That's my list philosophy. Balance first, theme secondary.

Or possibly with the Veilteks just transport a unit of lychguard across and create a large amount of chaos and target priority.


EDIT: can't spell

Ive tested a veiltek list a couple of times and so far I really like the mobility aspect. I would prefer veil of darkness movement and night scythes over pretty much anything in the elite section. The closest choice would be deathmarks- with a veiltek.

Jy2, agree on all counts. I always assume that praetorians are armed with pc/vb because otherwise they're just pure garbage. This was kind of an exercise in seeing what could be done with jump infantry, but it looks like it always gets trumped by scythespam. Until the rules change, the necron elite slot will be a relative wasteland, and wraiths/scarabs will continue to dominate fast attack.

Tomb blades are great, but because it's only 5 to a slot, they're really hard pressed to succeed considering what you have to sacrifice to take them.

Lychguard arent 'A Wasteland'. My 5-man Lychguard squad (with swords & shields and a rezorb lord) decimated Kantor and some assault termies

200 points for a foot slogging I2 squad of five power armor guys, why, Especially when a squad of 5 necron lords is essentially the same price and far more customizable, with the benefit of having ever living.

Lukus83 wrote:Another point to consider is that by having an entirely meched army in Scythes gives your opponent nothing to assault, even if they blow-up your transport. Wraiths, while awesome, give S3/4 something to shoot at and while it may not be effective, they can still do damage and it's something dedicated assault units can hit on better than a 6.

I think the only advantage to Praetorians might be in a transport. Per model on their own I think destroyers are better.

Both have 1 wound. Both T5. Both 40 pts a model. Both jump infantry.

Praetorians have to get within 6" to shoot a unit with their ap2 weapon. Destroyers can shoot 24" at ap3. They're both S5 shooting. In shooting against regular marines Destroyers win easily.

Destroyers have preferred enemy in combat. Praetorians can be taken in larger units.

I'd rather have range vs a bigger fearless weak combat unit that at best is going to be a speedbump.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
I think the only advantage to Praetorians might be in a transport. Per model on their own I think destroyers are better.

Jump infantry cannot ride in transports, unless that transport specifically allows them to (i.e. stormravens). It's in the BRB.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Lukus83 wrote:Another point to consider is that by having an entirely meched army in Scythes gives your opponent nothing to assault, even if they blow-up your transport. Wraiths, while awesome, give S3/4 something to shoot at and while it may not be effective, they can still do damage and it's something dedicated assault units can hit on better than a 6.

I think the only advantage to Praetorians might be in a transport. Per model on their own I think destroyers are better.

Both have 1 wound. Both T5. Both 40 pts a model. Both jump infantry.

Praetorians have to get within 6" to shoot a unit with their ap2 weapon. Destroyers can shoot 24" at ap3. They're both S5 shooting. In shooting against regular marines Destroyers win easily.

Destroyers have preferred enemy in combat. Praetorians can be taken in larger units.

I'd rather have range vs a bigger fearless weak combat unit that at best is going to be a speedbump.

Again, if destroyers were an elite choice, this would make the decision easier; but as it stands Fast attack slots are better used on units other than destroyers.

jy2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
I think the only advantage to Praetorians might be in a transport. Per model on their own I think destroyers are better.

Jump infantry cannot ride in transports, unless that transport specifically allows them to (i.e. stormravens). It's in the BRB.

But Night Scythes can carry jump infantry, so your point is a bit moot. But as Praetorians and Destroyers are both Jump Infantry and don't have options for dedicated transports, it boils down to what you want on the table.

TwilightWalker wrote:

jy2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
I think the only advantage to Praetorians might be in a transport. Per model on their own I think destroyers are better.

Jump infantry cannot ride in transports, unless that transport specifically allows them to (i.e. stormravens). It's in the BRB.

But Night Scythes can carry jump infantry, so your point is a bit moot. But as Praetorians and Destroyers are both Jump Infantry and don't have options for dedicated transports, it boils down to what you want on the table.

I was thinking more of ghost arks because of it being open-topped so that you can assault out of . But you've got a point with night scythes.

junk wrote:200 points for a foot slogging I2 squad of five power armor guys, why, Especially when a squad of 5 necron lords is essentially the same price and far more customizable, with the benefit of having ever living.

Except that, being from the same 'court', the Lords CANNOT be in the same squad as each other, just like crypteks. You can have TWO max(in the same squad) and that means having two courts (ie overlords)

Exalted Pariah wrote:

junk wrote:200 points for a foot slogging I2 squad of five power armor guys, why, Especially when a squad of 5 necron lords is essentially the same price and far more customizable, with the benefit of having ever living.

Except that, being from the same 'court', the Lords CANNOT be in the same squad as each other, just like crypteks. You can have TWO max(in the same squad) and that means having two courts (ie overlords)

You can keep the court together if you want, you don't have to split them off. So you can have 5 Lords together in the same squad.

Bam! Sasori'd.
[Also, what's up with the hostile caps man?]

Not to beat a dead horse, but Royal Courts are so much better than lychguard that lychguard shouldn't exist at all.

Lord with warscythe: 45 points
Lychguard with warscythe: 40 points

Lord has ever living, lychguard does not
Lord can be joined by any number of crypteks, lychguard can get 2
Lord can be taken in any unit size 1-5 (+ crypteks)
lychguard is minimum 5
Lord can take MSS scarabs on every model, Tachyon arrows, Tesseract Labyrinth, S.Weave...

Lords do everything Lychguard can do and WAY more
You can leave staff of light on a couple lords to have a mixed shooting/assault squad, or swap out for void blades to get entropic strike.

Lychguard can be upgraded to sword/board. Fine. That's an option. 5 x lychguard 3+/4++ with S5 power weapons for 225 points. I'd still rather spend that 225 on 4 lords that are going to win CC more often, and survive getting their squad wiped out.

junk wrote:Bam! Sasori'd.


Not to beat a dead horse, but Royal Courts are so much better than lychguard that lychguard shouldn't exist at all.

Lord with warscythe: 45 points
Lychguard with warscythe: 40 points

Lord has ever living, lychguard does not
Lord can be joined by any number of crypteks, lychguard can get 2
Lord can be taken in any unit size 1-5 (+ crypteks)
lychguard is minimum 5
Lord can take MSS scarabs on every model, Tachyon arrows, Tesseract Labyrinth, S.Weave...

Lords do everything Lychguard can do and WAY more
You can leave staff of light on a couple lords to have a mixed shooting/assault squad, or swap out for void blades to get entropic strike.

Lychguard can be upgraded to sword/board. Fine. That's an option. 5 x lychguard 3+/4++ with S5 power weapons for 225 points. I'd still rather spend that 225 on 4 lords that are going to win CC more often, and survive getting their squad wiped out.

Yes, but to have the lords you need an overlord, meaning that if you are running D lords (like me) you will have to field lychguard. There's also the fact that lychguard are cheaper.

That's true, the price of admission to a royal court is an overlord. Lychguard and destroyer lords seem like an odd mix, now I'm curious to see your list.

Sorry for the hostile caps Junk, but I just can't see a Deathsquad(of lords) being that great at surviving(killing yes, living long-enough to do it? no.) Even with and orb and weave, they don't have an invul, and at one wound each they will be shot to bits...though I wish they wouldnt be :(

Ever living makes them more survivable than lychguard. If a lychguard squad is wiped out, game over for them. If a lord squad is wiped out, no biggie, with a resorb, half of them get back up at the end of the phase. Also, while expensive, lords can take phase shifters, or be joined by Harbingers of Eternity with Timesplinter cloaks and chronometrons (rerollable 3+ invul) In CC they mitigate power weapon fights with mindshackle scarabs, in shooting, they weather AP2 weapons with ressurection orbs.

The royal court wins on merits, but like you said, you can only take 1 per overlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, +1 - Royal courts can hijack Open topped AV13 skimmers from warriors, whereas lychguard can only be transported by night scythe or monolith (neither allow assault after disembarkation)

But with lychguard you can give them shields for a 4++, making them about the same survivability as lords.

junk wrote:Ever living makes them more survivable than lychguard. If a lychguard squad is wiped out, game over for them. If a lord squad is wiped out, no biggie, with a resorb, half of them get back up at the end of the phase. Also, while expensive, lords can take phase shifters, or be joined by Harbingers of Eternity with Timesplinter cloaks and chronometrons (rerollable 3+ invul) In CC they mitigate power weapon fights with mindshackle scarabs, in shooting, they weather AP2 weapons with ressurection orbs.

The royal court wins on merits, but like you said, you can only take 1 per overlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, +1 - Royal courts can hijack Open topped AV13 skimmers from warriors, whereas lychguard can only be transported by night scythe or monolith (neither allow assault after disembarkation)

For me, I prefer The Lords mixed in with a squad of Sword and board lychguard. You can buy a sword and board lychguard, for the price of a phase shifter. Two lords with Warscythes, MSS, and an Orb on one, combined with the Lychguard is a pretty deadly unit. Everliving only really makes a difference if the entire squad is wiped out, which is something we hope to avoid.

However, the biggest advantage to court lords, is they can snag a Ghost Ark, from a warrior squad.

I think both have their merits. I do believe the 4++ makes the Lychguard squad more survivable. As against a lot of weaponry, that gives you a 50% save, followed by a 50% chance to get back up with an Orb. Lord squads pay a super premium to have any type of invulnerable.

They are overpriced, their shooting is just too short in range and they're not good against mech lists. Now you can swap out their rod for VB+PC, which makes them slightly better against vehicles, but now you're making them a subpar I2 assault unit that just cannot hold their own against similarly priced units (i.e. 10 assault terminators, any 10-man GK unit, etc.). I just see Fail all over as a consistent and reliable necron threat. They are just not an efficient unit for their cost, and they don't excel in whatever they do.

As the resident TP defender I guess I need to chime in here, but your comparing scissors to rock here, but we all know rock beats scissor. But none of us would ever make such a mistake in an actual game. Calvary go for artillery, artillery kill spear-man, spear-man kill cavalry. If your going to compare them point for point to a unit in a different codex you have to choose a jump/best/ect to compare them against. TPs have an 36" threat bubble, why would they ever assault something that they couldn't take?

Anyway, I think the fairest argument against them is Wraiths perform a bit better against troops, though the VB/PC combo on the TPs is very good if used correctly.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They are overpriced, their shooting is just too short in range and they're not good against mech lists. Now you can swap out their rod for VB+PC, which makes them slightly better against vehicles, but now you're making them a subpar I2 assault unit that just cannot hold their own against similarly priced units (i.e. 10 assault terminators, any 10-man GK unit, etc.). I just see Fail all over as a consistent and reliable necron threat. They are just not an efficient unit for their cost, and they don't excel in whatever they do.

As the resident TP defender I guess I need to chime in here, but your comparing scissors to rock here, but we all know rock beats scissor. But none of us would ever make such a mistake in an actual game. Calvary go for artillery, artillery kill spear-man, spear-man kill cavalry. If your going to compare them point for point to a unit in a different codex you have to choose a jump/best/ect to compare them against. TPs have an 36" threat bubble, why would they ever assault something that they couldn't take?

Anyway, I think the fairest argument against them is Wraiths perform a bit better against troops, though the VB/PC combo on the TPs is very good if used correctly.

Where do you get 36" bubble? I get 18' 12 move+6 assault.


I think Wraiths are a lot better against troops, and generally anything that requires and invul save. They have an extra base attack, and higher strength. So they put out a lot more wounds. They can also hit first, and can take a punch back. VBs are significantly better against vehicles, but a lot of times that ca be overkill.

Bubble as in 18" behind them + 18" in front of them.

junk wrote:Bubble as in 18" behind them + 18" in front of them.

Ah! I see what you mean. I just think 18' from any direction, I don't really count that as 36.

Sasori wrote:

junk wrote:Bubble as in 18" behind them + 18" in front of them.

Ah! I see what you mean. I just think 18' from any direction, I don't really count that as 36.

Yeah Junk got me, that's why I used the word "bubble." I guess what I was trying to illustrate is they should have a lot of targets to choose from, choose wisely.

Sasori wrote:

junk wrote:Ever living makes them more survivable than lychguard. If a lychguard squad is wiped out, game over for them. If a lord squad is wiped out, no biggie, with a resorb, half of them get back up at the end of the phase. Also, while expensive, lords can take phase shifters, or be joined by Harbingers of Eternity with Timesplinter cloaks and chronometrons (rerollable 3+ invul) In CC they mitigate power weapon fights with mindshackle scarabs, in shooting, they weather AP2 weapons with ressurection orbs.

The royal court wins on merits, but like you said, you can only take 1 per overlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, +1 - Royal courts can hijack Open topped AV13 skimmers from warriors, whereas lychguard can only be transported by night scythe or monolith (neither allow assault after disembarkation)

For me, I prefer The Lords mixed in with a squad of Sword and board lychguard. You can buy a sword and board lychguard, for the price of a phase shifter. Two lords with Warscythes, MSS, and an Orb on one, combined with the Lychguard is a pretty deadly unit. Everliving only really makes a difference if the entire squad is wiped out, which is something we hope to avoid.

However, the biggest advantage to court lords, is they can snag a Ghost Ark, from a warrior squad.

I think both have their merits. I do believe the 4++ makes the Lychguard squad more survivable. As against a lot of weaponry, that gives you a 50% save, followed by a 50% chance to get back up with an Orb. Lord squads pay a super premium to have any type of invulnerable.

I run a 5-man sword/board lychguard with an overlord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a standard lord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a veiltek. I mentioned above that that they minced Kantor and some Termies.

The best thing about a sword/board Lychguard is that it can deflect an ap3 or better shot at an enemy unit within 6" if it passes its 4++

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:

junk wrote:Ever living makes them more survivable than lychguard. If a lychguard squad is wiped out, game over for them. If a lord squad is wiped out, no biggie, with a resorb, half of them get back up at the end of the phase. Also, while expensive, lords can take phase shifters, or be joined by Harbingers of Eternity with Timesplinter cloaks and chronometrons (rerollable 3+ invul) In CC they mitigate power weapon fights with mindshackle scarabs, in shooting, they weather AP2 weapons with ressurection orbs.

The royal court wins on merits, but like you said, you can only take 1 per overlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, +1 - Royal courts can hijack Open topped AV13 skimmers from warriors, whereas lychguard can only be transported by night scythe or monolith (neither allow assault after disembarkation)

For me, I prefer The Lords mixed in with a squad of Sword and board lychguard. You can buy a sword and board lychguard, for the price of a phase shifter. Two lords with Warscythes, MSS, and an Orb on one, combined with the Lychguard is a pretty deadly unit. Everliving only really makes a difference if the entire squad is wiped out, which is something we hope to avoid.

However, the biggest advantage to court lords, is they can snag a Ghost Ark, from a warrior squad.

I think both have their merits. I do believe the 4++ makes the Lychguard squad more survivable. As against a lot of weaponry, that gives you a 50% save, followed by a 50% chance to get back up with an Orb. Lord squads pay a super premium to have any type of invulnerable.

I run a 5-man sword/board lychguard with an overlord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a standard lord (scythe,orb,weave,shifter,scarabs) and a veiltek. I mentioned above that that they minced Kantor and some Termies.

The best thing about a sword/board Lychguard is that it can deflect an ap3 or better shot at an enemy unit within 6" if it passes its 4++

Why the shifter on the regular lord? You can buy an extra Lychguard for that price. Why two Orbs as well? Just keep the one on the regular Lord, since he can't be singled out.

I run it like that so I can take any non-reflectable (ie ap4 or worse) wounds on a 2+ save without to much hassle. Shifter on regular lord so he can hold on if he is last alive. Two orbs for the same reason. if one goes down, I've got a spare

Why the shifter on the regular lord? You can buy an extra Lychguard for that price. Why two Orbs as well? Just keep the one on the regular Lord, since he can't be singled out.

Thought the exact same thing.

IHateNids wrote:I run it like that so I can take any non-reflectable (ie ap4 or worse) wounds on a 2+ save without to much hassle. Shifter on regular lord so he can hold on if he is last alive. Two orbs for the same reason. if one goes down, I've got a spare

You can take your 3+ save on AP4 weapons.

It's really an inefficient use of points though. You can get a lot more out of that unit, and the rest of your army with a few tweaks. If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

junk wrote:That's true, the price of admission to a royal court is an overlord. Lychguard and destroyer lords seem like an odd mix, now I'm curious to see your list.

Simple, I don't use lychguard
I am planning of testing them out, eventually, though it will be a while before I get around to making a list. I am considering using them with nightscythes to get them close enough, and equip them with shields for extra durability.
The effect, I should imagine, would be a bit like a riot police squad crashing through the ceiling.

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

And I know I can take AP4 on 3+ saves, but I roll 2s a lot on a 3+ save. Just don't want anyone to go down to a stray bolter round

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

Please share with the rest of the class.

junk wrote:

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

Please share with the rest of the class.

I think he might be referring to the res orb carrier dies debate? But, actually that doesn't make sense in this context, so yeah put me down for confused as well.

This is fun, I'll guess at what his conversation with random gamer dude was.

Nids: Hey, you killed all my lychguard, except the lord!
Guy: Well now they can't get up.
Nids: Ah, but they can.
Guy: Oh? I have pizza cutters for hands.
Nids: Indeed.

IHateNids wrote:

Sasori wrote:If the Lord is the last alive, then the Lychguard can't stand up anyway.

I had the same conversation with someone at my FLGS. Because of the whole royal court thing, they can.

And I know I can take AP4 on 3+ saves, but I roll 2s a lot on a 3+ save. Just don't want anyone to go down to a stray bolter round

No, they can't. It's under the Reanimation Protocol rules, that if a Character is the last one standing, then the unit may not attempt. Note, it says character, not independent character. Lords and Crypteks are characters.

I don't understand, you know you have to take the best save available? You must take your 3+ when are able to.

@Sasori: thats why I have a 2+

@junk: Its on the YMDC forums somewhere. It used the example of "if a unit of warriors goes down with only a cryptek remaining, can a ghost ark repair the warrior squad". The final answer was yes, so it stands to reason that if a dead unit with a cryptek standing can be ark'd, a dead unit with a lord standing can attempt we'll be back

Nids we play 1750 AND 2250

also remember what I said either a lith phlanalax or a ghost ark broadside will do fine as well...

More recently yes in preperation for the tourney

IHateNids wrote:@Sasori: thats why I have a 2+

@junk: Its on the YMDC forums somewhere. It used the example of "if a unit of warriors goes down with only a cryptek remaining, can a ghost ark repair the warrior squad". The final answer was yes, so it stands to reason that if a dead unit with a cryptek standing can be ark'd, a dead unit with a lord standing can attempt we'll be back

I just pointed out to you, where in the rules it says you can't use RP, if the lord is the last one standing.


EDIT: In addition, Ghost Arks function tottaly diffrent than RP, since it brings back models that have already failed their RP.

EDIT2

I'll re-quote myself for emphasis

No, they can't. It's under the Reanimation Protocol rules, that if a Character is the last one standing, then the unit may not attempt. Note, it says character, not independent character. Lords and Crypteks are characters.

Search the YMDCs, you'll find it somewhere. You can, and everyone in the upcoming tournement at my FLGS is playing it as you can, so the house interpretations will remain unchanged.

back me up happy

You CAN use a ghost ark on a cryptek or lord that is the sole survivor of a warrior squad because as a character and not an independent character they are still a 'unit of warriors' despite being a single not warrior model left.
You CANNOT attempt RP rolls for a squad that was wiped out all the way down to a cryptek or lord, the reanimation protocols entry on p29 of the cron dex specifically mentions characters being alive as insufficient to keep the unit's RP counters on the board so you don't get to make those rolls.

I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

IHateNids wrote:I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

You're wrong. YMDC never agreed with that. Arks still work, but you can't stand the warriors back up.
The Teks/Lords that stand back up are still part of the Warrior unit though.

IHateNids wrote:I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

They don't. The Rules are black and white on this issue. Read the Reanimation protocol rules again.

IHateNids wrote:I'll have to check my dex and the YMDC again but im sure royal courts enable this

It's very clear in the codex. You don't get RP for the unit (not including Ever-living attached characters) if it is wiped out. Royal courts do not enable this.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

ShadarLogoth wrote:

They are overpriced, their shooting is just too short in range and they're not good against mech lists. Now you can swap out their rod for VB+PC, which makes them slightly better against vehicles, but now you're making them a subpar I2 assault unit that just cannot hold their own against similarly priced units (i.e. 10 assault terminators, any 10-man GK unit, etc.). I just see Fail all over as a consistent and reliable necron threat. They are just not an efficient unit for their cost, and they don't excel in whatever they do.

As the resident TP defender I guess I need to chime in here, but your comparing scissors to rock here, but we all know rock beats scissor. But none of us would ever make such a mistake in an actual game. Calvary go for artillery, artillery kill spear-man, spear-man kill cavalry. If your going to compare them point for point to a unit in a different codex you have to choose a jump/best/ect to compare them against. TPs have an 36" threat bubble, why would they ever assault something that they couldn't take?

Anyway, I think the fairest argument against them is Wraiths perform a bit better against troops, though the VB/PC combo on the TPs is very good if used correctly.

I am not comparing them to anything. I am only looking at their role in a TAC list. They just don't have the flexibility nor are they as efficient as some of the other units in the book. 400pts is a good chunk of the army that's dedicated to only a single role. Arm them with rods and they will have problems against mechanized lists. Give them with VB+PC and then they will have problems with foot-based lists. Play against a shooty list and watch them die quickly (unless you add a 200pts resorb destroyer lord with them, which then makes the unit even more expensive). They will not outassault other army's assault units, nor will they outshoot even medium shooty armies. Their AT is just subpar. What's the most common tank in the game? Transports. Using your 400pt unit to try to take out a 35pt rhino just isn't efficient, and then next turn you have to take the enemy's counter-attack/shooting.

Now I'm not saying that they're bad. They do have their uses and in certain matchups, they may shine. But overall, they are not an efficient unit, especially in an all-comer's list. There are just other units in the codex that can do what they do and do it better and cheaper.

SO inorder to stay on topic rather than argue YMDC, I saw mentioned a few posts back about a DL and lychguard in a squad, I must say, I never thought about it, but it intrigues me.

Pros:
DL is a tougher, more killy OL
Can still take Orb, weave and MSS

Cons:
DL is IC so he can be singled out
Takes away the DLs speed and deep strike ability

Thoughts?

I am not comparing them to anything. I am only looking at their role in a TAC list. They just don't have the flexibility nor are they as efficient as some of the other units in the book. 400pts is a good chunk of the army that's dedicated to only a single role. Arm them with rods and they will have problems against mechanized lists. Give them with VB+PC and then they will have problems with foot-based lists. Play against a shooty list and watch them die quickly (unless you add a 200pts resorb destroyer lord with them, which then makes the unit even more expensive). They will not outassault other army's assault units, nor will they outshoot even medium shooty armies. Their AT is just subpar. What's the most common tank in the game? Transports. Using your 400pt unit to try to take out a 35pt rhino just isn't efficient, and then next turn you have to take the enemy's counter-attack/shooting.

Now I'm not saying that they're bad. They do have their uses and in certain matchups, they may shine. But overall, they are not an efficient unit, especially in an all-comer's list. There are just other units in the codex that can do what they do and do it better and cheaper.

But they will out assault shooty units, and if big enough will out assault assautly units, and because of their speed and threat range they should be able to pick these battles. But really, your dramatically underrating their Anti Tank capabilities. 10 TPs + Dlord can cover 33" of board, why would you ever only assault one rhino? And if you did, your more then big enough to surround it and prevent the insides from disembarking, so your wiping 150 to 200 points, not just 35.

To block the back door of a 5 inch long rhino using a 6 inch assault move you need to basically be touching one of the front treads, you also then need at least 6 models in the unit to retain coherency across all 3 doors. Given that the assault rules make you move your closest model directly to the closest part of the unit you're assaulting you actually need at least 3 guys up almost touching that front rhino tread in the movement phase to fully surround the rhino in assault. Odds of your super expensive squad going largely unshot then having a full transport of guys within 12" that for some reason didn't get out and rapid fire/melta you is unlikely at best.

Preatorians with rods are good against terminators with strike last weapons and super expensive shooty infantry like destroyers or dark reapers(if you can sneak up on them with terrain anyway) but they are point for point garbage for anything else. Preatorians with void blades are more diverse but they're only really good at killing vehicles and meh at anything else and there's like 5 other things in the cron dex that are better at that. They look super cool though. Super cool.

Actinium wrote:To block the back door of a 5 inch long rhino using a 6 inch assault move you need to basically be touching one of the front treads, you also then need at least 6 models in the unit to retain coherency across all 3 doors. Given that the assault rules make you move your closest model directly to the closest part of the unit you're assaulting you actually need at least 3 guys up almost touching that front rhino tread in the movement phase to fully surround the rhino in assault. Odds of your super expensive squad going largely unshot then having a full transport of guys within 12" that for some reason didn't get out and rapid fire/melta you is unlikely at best.

Fair enough, I've pulled it off in conjunction with Tomb Blades, but of course...that was in conjunction with Tomb Blades.

Preatorians with rods are good against terminators with strike last weapons and super expensive shooty infantry like destroyers or dark reapers(if you can sneak up on them with terrain anyway) but they are point for point garbage for anything else. Preatorians with void blades are more diverse but they're only really good at killing vehicles and meh at anything else and there's like 5 other things in the cron dex that are better at that. They look super cool though. Super cool.

It takes two VB/PC TP bases to statistically pop a stationary transport in CC, That's pretty amazing. Scarabs can do for a bit cheaper pints wise but are considerably less durable. The big thing though, and I use the word BIG here quite intentionally is there threat range can be amazing. 33" stretched out length edge half way on the board can just about assault anything not hugging the board edges, and with 3+ armor save, access to stealth, a 4+ RP and T5, and 2+ armor save from the DLord, they can sustain a full armies worth of shooting and keep on ticking. Not many units in the game can make such a claim (Draigo..and...Draigo..and...Draigo...oh and TPs+DLord).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As I have stated many times though, they compete with Wraiths, which are great, but it stifles me how people can rate Wraiths so well and TPs so poorly. Really they are very very close units. TPs (with PC/VB) are better against vehicles, Wraiths are better against MEQ and TEQ, TPs are better against hordes. So they both have their pros and cons. But some how the netlisters have turned this both having pros and cons into "ZOMG Wraiths are auto include and TPs are trash!!!!" ....odd that.

For me, and I've mentioned this a time or two around the Dakkas, is the DLord+10 TP unit is amazing with Nemesor. You can sling them Tank Hunter, Furious Charge, Counter Attack, Hit and Run, basically what ever the situation calls for. It's hella fun to play with.

I would say wraiths are better than preatorians in almost every way. 2 wounds a 3++ and allocation shenanigans with per model upgrades, plus whip coils not only turn their own I2 weakness into pretty much a banshee mask but the attached dlord benefits as well. Triarchs aren't fighting for those all important fast attack slots but if you're running a dlord wraiths are really the retinue to go with, you don't wanna buy a weave and an orb and maybe a shifter to use the lord to protect the squad, you want the squad to protect the lord.

Actinium wrote:I would say wraiths are better than preatorians in almost every way. 2 wounds a 3++ and allocation shenanigans with per model upgrades, plus whip coils not only turn their own I2 weakness into pretty much a banshee mask but the attached dlord benefits as well.

With Stealth you can make TPs 3+ Cover Save, 4+ RP with Res Orb, and T5, so resiliency wise they are nearly identical when you start considering Wraiths can be insta gibbed, but the only way to take away RP from the TPs is wiping out the squad. As for options, the TPs come with one of the Wraiths options standard, and the lack of whip coils can be some what mitigated buy unloading 5 to 10 Strength 6 shots into the opponent first.

But again they are designed for different functions. Wraiths excel against anything with a power weapon (3++), but TPs are very strong against Hordes (T5, 3+ armor save and RP 4+) and vehicles. They both can do all of the above ok, but the simple fact is one is stronger against one, and the other the other. For some reason people don't want to concede the fact that TPs are indeed stronger against hordes and vehicles, despite the math clearly showing this to be the case.

Triarchs aren't fighting for those all important fast attack slots but if you're running a dlord wraiths are really the retinue to go with, you don't wanna buy a weave and an orb and maybe a shifter to use the lord to protect the squad, you want the squad to protect the lord.

Why wouldn't you want to buy a weave and res orb to protect the TP's, then they are effectively protecting each other, synergism. People commonly buy the Sweave on the Dlord when he's running with the wraiths anyway, and the cost of the res orb is a no brainer on a 560 point unit.

I'll probably try both combos at one point, but Shadar has a great point. 10 VB/PC TPs + rezorb DLord with Nemesor Zahndrekh giving them tank hunter every turn will make a meched MSU player gak themselves.

EDIT: Another good thing about Zahndrekh is Obyron. Put him with a ten man Shieldguard squad in a NS and you've got a mobile HQ hunter as well, where the WS6 & counterblow rules of Obyron will turn the higher I of enemy characters against them. Another squad of shieldguard can guard Zahndrek.

Just a little math on the Hordes argument:

It takes 72...yes, 72! Strength 3 attack to statistically remove a TP base with a Res Orb.

72(1/2)(1/6)(1/3)(1/2)= 1

Conversely, it takes 36 Strength 3 attacks to reliably remove a Wraith Base.

36(1/2)(1/3)(1/3)= 2

So TPs are effectively twice as resilient to torrent non PW attacks then wraiths are.

ok, so 10 TPs+DLord can beat an ork horde.
I will take those odds

It's kinda a big assumption and even bigger cost that you'll have zahndrekh and cover that isn't harmful area terrain
(which isn't harmful to the wraiths I might add) whenever that squad gets shot at. At that point you're building both your hq slots around 1 squad that can still just get caught in a leman russ blast or something. It just seems like a sunk cost fallacy where your'e trying to make a bad unit good by buying more and more stuff to try to get back what you're losing by taking them in the first place.

Simply put, 5 preatorians compare unfavorably to 5 wraiths with 2 coils and 1 particle caster in every situation i can think of offensively and defensively despite being the same cost except that it gets 4 more pistol shots. Against vehicles the preatorians kill it more harderer but in no situation do the wraiths fail to also kill the vehicle (probably, barring either squad just rolling a ton of shaken results or something). Even in a point skewed comparison where you take the preatorians to 10 and the wraiths can only go up to 6 it still doesn't look great for the preatorians with 4 less attacks on the charge and 2 less wounds and still striking last against everything but power fists.

Even your strength 3 hits example takes place in a vacuum where the wraiths didn't get to make use of whip coils to attack first and reduce the number of incoming attacks but the TPs get the benefit of an expensive res orb. using the identicle point cost example, 5 wraiths assaulting into 30 shoota boyz kill ~7 then take ~2.5 wounds. 5 TPs assaulting into 30 shoota boyz kill ~3 and take ~1 death. Still almost identical kill to death ratios and ignoring the overall necron army theme of having great anti light infantry guns that makes a good anti str3 (but not swarm) jump assault unit largely irrelevant and the numbers get progressively more in wraiths favor if you put in the obvious power klaw nob or extend into further rounds of combat where the TPs have a third of the wraith's attacks rather than half on the charge.

While point versus point comparisons are good to have, the concept of a deathstar always trades poor points efficiency for concentration of force.

So yea, you get 12 wraiths with upgrades for the cost of 10 praetorians with a destroyer lord. However, the 10 Praetorians are all in one unit, making them more resiliant to counterattacks. Wraiths, on the other hand, are much easier to single out 1 at a time.

As an aside, sometimes nothing beats t5 for assault. t4 2wounds is great, but instant death can be an issue.

Finally, Praetorians are not fast attack slots. Considering how great the necron fast attack slot is, the idea of debating Praetorians over wraiths should be considered along with the other fast attack unit you get. Using Praetorians, for example, give you a great excuse to run tomb blades, where without Praetorians using tomb blades is almost never a good idea since you lost a close combat unit AND are not replacing them with Praetorians.

DevianID wrote:
As an aside, sometimes nothing beats t5 for assault. t4 2wounds is great, but instant death can be an issue.

I dunno. I think t4 2W with 3++ and wound allocation (+ fearless) beats t5 with 4+ RP.

Finally, Praetorians are not fast attack slots. Considering how great the necron fast attack slot is, the idea of debating Praetorians over wraiths should be considered along with the other fast attack unit you get. Using Praetorians, for example, give you a great excuse to run tomb blades, where without Praetorians using tomb blades is almost never a good idea since you lost a close combat unit AND are not replacing them with Praetorians.

That's true. That is a combo that isn't really looked at often enough.


------------------------------------------------------


St. Valentine's Day Massacre tournament results are out and the winner is Necrons!

This confirms my belief that wraithwing may perhaps be the most competitive and balanced necron build and is definitely a top-tier list.


This is my wraithwing list which I used against Reecius' Bjorn long-fang-spam (battle report here):

Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge

4x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

Necron Overlord - Mindshackle Scarabs, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Weave
Catacomb Command Barge

3x Cryptek - Harbinger of Destruction, Solar Pulse

5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Warriors

6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster
6x Canoptek Wraiths - 4x Whip Coils, 1x Particle Blaster

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge


This is Eric Hoeger's Wraithwing list. BTW, he got a perfect battle score (getting 20pts in all 5 of his matches) and over some fierce competition and great players. This was his list:

Overlord: Warscythe, Command Barge 180
Overlord: Warscythe, Command Barge 180
Royal Court: Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse, Harbinger of Destruction, Harbinger of Despair with Veil of Darkness 150
Royal Court: Harbinger of Destruction with Solar Pulse, Harbinger of Destruction, 90
7 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 119
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
5 Immortals: Tesla Carbines 85
6 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil, 1xParticle Caster 245
6 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil, 1xParticle Caster 245
5 Wraiths: 3xWhip Coil 205
Annihilation Barge: Telsa Cannon 90
Annihilation Barge: Tesla Cannon 90


Notice any similarities?

Actinium wrote:It's kinda a big assumption and even bigger cost that you'll have zahndrekh and cover that isn't harmful area terrain
(which isn't harmful to the wraiths I might add) whenever that squad gets shot at. At that point you're building both your hq slots around 1 squad that can still just get caught in a leman russ blast or something. It just seems like a sunk cost fallacy where your'e trying to make a bad unit good by buying more and more stuff to try to get back what you're losing by taking them in the first place.

Devian already made many of the points that I would make but just wanted to point out a couple of things...how can Wraiths be considered one of the best units in the Codex...but Praetorians are a "bad" unit when they are very very close to Wraiths but from a different FOC slot? I guess its the nomeclature used that often irks me. Their is nothing "bad" or "overcosted" about the Praetorians, and the existence of Wraiths in the same Codex doesn't magically make it so.

The point I was making with Nemesor and the Res Orb are their are synergisms available to the TPs that aren't available to the Wraiths. Their is nothing you can do to Wraiths to give them RP, however there are things you can do to TPs, like screening them with shadoloomed Tomb Blades the first turn (they don't have to be shadowloomed of course, but if its opart of your strategy to turbo booost them, might as well), that can shore up their lack of invulnerable. Also, you're not taking Nemesor, or the DLord, or the Tomb Blades to "shore up" the weaknesses of the TPs, your taking them because they are good units in there own right, but they also have the added bonus of synergizing with some units quite well. Tomb Blades are fast units that can bring their own cover saves and stealth and have Gauss shots, so can screen the TPs, they can stun vehicles to make them easy KPs for the TPs, and they are fast enough to run with the TPs and do disembark denial and the like. Similiarly, Nemesor is a great force multiplier for large units, and the two units in the dex that can get the most bang for the buck out of him are Lychguard and TPs.

Finally, you seem to have this idea that every model in the unit has to assault one vehicle, in the current mechanized meta pulling off multi vehicle assaults with a 33" long unit is not only possible it's likely.

The first time i posted I already mentioned them being an elites slot is one of the few things in their favor, if you want to fill up on tomb blades or destroyers or something by all means take some preatorians to hunt for vehicles. I can't get behind the idea of a preatorian deathstar because they are 40 point single wound no invulnerable save models without enough attacks or initiative to take advantage of their own equipment. You can do a lot to help keep them alive and getting into ideal combats but there's too many things they can't do, too many types of weapons and wargear they can't stand up to, and you could spend the same time and energy protecting or synergising with more cost effective units. If they were 32 points, or if the rod was assault 2, or if the VB/PC gave you an extra attack, I could very easily get behind them. But, as they stand now, I would rather have pariahs back, and i didn't much care for pariahs at all. They are relegated solely to the realm of 'I am out of other stuff to take because of the force organization chart' for me.

@Actinium: The VB/PC does give you an extra attack. The PC is a pistol, and pistol give offhand attacks

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Devian already made many of the points that I would make but just wanted to point out a couple of things...how can Wraiths be considered one of the best units in the Codex...but Praetorians are a "bad" unit when they are very very close to Wraiths but from a different FOC slot? I guess its the nomeclature used that often irks me. Their is nothing "bad" or "overcosted" about the Praetorians, and the existence of Wraiths in the same Codex doesn't magically make it so.

The only way Triarchs and Wraiths are "close" is that they're both jump infantry. Wraiths have an invul save, the ability to take on a variety of targets, and can take wargear to mitigate I2. Triarchs can do slightly better damage than wraiths to Meq/Teq, or to vehicles, chosen in your list.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The point I was making with Nemesor and the Res Orb are their are synergisms available to the TPs that aren't available to the Wraiths. Their is nothing you can do to Wraiths to give them RP, however there are things you can do to TPs, like screening them with shadoloomed Tomb Blades the first turn (they don't have to be shadowloomed of course, but if its opart of your strategy to turbo booost them, might as well), that can shore up their lack of invulnerable. Also, you're not taking Nemesor, or the DLord, or the Tomb Blades to "shore up" the weaknesses of the TPs, your taking them because they are good units in there own right, but they also have the added bonus of synergizing with some units quite well. Tomb Blades are fast units that can bring their own cover saves and stealth and have Gauss shots, so can screen the TPs, they can stun vehicles to make them easy KPs for the TPs, and they are fast enough to run with the TPs and do disembark denial and the like. Similiarly, Nemesor is a great force multiplier for large units, and the two units in the dex that can get the most bang for the buck out of him are Lychguard and TPs.

. . . You are really trying to make the point that Wraiths don't synergize with DLords and the Nemsor?
A Destroyer Lord and the Nemsor both power up wraiths just as well as Triarchs. You don't get the slight increase in RP from a Rez Orb, but Wraiths give your Destroyer Lord a great invulnerable delivery vehicle. The Nemsor allows you to deepstrike all your Wraiths at once if you so chose, and can give them furious charge. Now, if you have spare elite slots, why not throw in some Deathmarks to back up your Wraiths, to take out elite enemy units or tough models? Why not some flayed ones, to hit hordes? With a destroyer lord, the Wraiths don't have to worry about vehicles either. Or the Nemsor can just give them Tank Hunters. Either way, a unit of Wraiths can at least engage any threat the opponent can field (Barring very powerful deathstars).

If they get the extra attack i can see some more uses for triarchs then. They're still very niche and not at all a good deathstar unit but the rending numbers against monstrous creatures get significantly better with 3 attacks on the charge, i mean the mc still goes at a higher initiative and kills 2-3 preatorians first but as a small problem solver unit for a force that has no wraiths or scarabs you can at least make the argument for 40pts.

Still wish rods were assault 2 and/or 12".

Actinium wrote:Still wish rods were assault 2 and/or 12".

yeah but GW won't let there be anything that can possibly take out two of their hardest poster boys (SM terminators) then still power assault them.

About triarchs not being deathstars, well i wouldn't use them for that. I'd use them as I would shooty scarabs, jump around shooting Sv 5+ or worse and assaulting vehicles.

Rather than going back and forth between wraiths and TP's, I'm going to actually try to build a viable list with the TP's and tomb blades. To me, I see wraiths and TP's as having 2 different roles. Wraiths are a flexible, jack-of-all-trades unit that does everything pretty well. TP's IMO will be used to hunt down infantry. AT won't be their role, at least not in the list that I will be building. What I envision is a fast, mostly mechanized necron army, and I will attempt to build one without the use of wraiths.


1500pts

Overlord - Warscythe, CCB - 180
Royal court - 3x Lance-teks, 1x Pulse - 125

5x Triarch Praetorians - Rod of Covenant - 200

5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185

10x Scarabs - 150
5x Tomb Blades - TL-Gauss - 100
5x Tomb Blades - TL-Gauss - 100

Annihilation Barge - 90

1500


TP's will take one of the night scythes, which will deliver them closer to the opponent. That is an option and they don't necessarily have to steal the NS depending on the situation. TP's will either hunt down MSU units or will be a counter-attack unit. The core of the army is a fast, shooty-based one.



2000pts

Overlord - Warscythe, CCB - 180
Royal court - 3x Lance-teks, 1x Pulse - 125
Overlord - Warscythe, CCB - 180
Royal court - 1x Lance-teks, 1x Pulse - 55
540

5x Triarch Praetorians - Rod of Covenant - 200

5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185

9x Scarabs - 135
5x Tomb Blades - TL-Gauss - 100
5x Tomb Blades - TL-Gauss - 100

Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90

1995

Basically, at 2K, I've added more shooting. I didn't add another unit of TP's because I felt that I needed 1 more troop at 2K and some more cheap shooting units. Another CCB Overlord is always a good addition to any army as well. He also opens up the ability to get a 2nd Solar Pulse which I feel to be very beneficial to an army like this.

jy2 wrote:2000pts

Overlord - Warscythe, CCB - 180
Royal court - 3x Lance-teks, 1x Pulse - 125
Overlord - Warscythe, CCB - 180
Royal court - 1x Lance-teks, 1x Pulse - 55
540

5x Triarch Praetorians - Rod of Covenant - 200

5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185
5x Immortals - Teslas, Night Scythe - 185

9x Scarabs - 135
5x Tomb Blades - TL-Gauss - 100
5x Tomb Blades - TL-Gauss - 100

Annihilation Barge - 90
Annihilation Barge - 90

1995

Basically, at 2K, I've added more shooting. I didn't add another unit of TP's because I felt that I needed 1 more troop at 2K and some more cheap shooting units. Another CCB Overlord is always a good addition to any army as well. He also opens up the ability to get a 2nd Solar Pulse which I feel to be very beneficial to an army like this.

Looks like a very solid army to me JY. Plenty of Armour-saturation and a variety of fast, threatening units.
Instead of the TP's taking a non-open-topped Nightscythe, I would've thought screening them with Tomb Blades would be a better option?

Just Dave wrote:Looks like a very solid army to me JY. Plenty of Armour-saturation and a variety of fast, threatening units.
Instead of the TP's taking a non-open-topped Nightscythe, I would've thought screening them with Tomb Blades would be a better option?

That's definitely another option. However, with the NS' ability to move 36", that means by Turn 3, they can be killing long fangs and other infantry who normally hide out in the back.

Anyways, tactics should never be set in stone. The general needs to have the flexibility to change his tactics depending on the army he's facing and how his opponent is deploying/playing. But one thing you've got with this type of list is some flexibility thanks to its high mobility.

Irdiumstern wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Devian already made many of the points that I would make but just wanted to point out a couple of things...how can Wraiths be considered one of the best units in the Codex...but Praetorians are a "bad" unit when they are very very close to Wraiths but from a different FOC slot? I guess its the nomeclature used that often irks me. Their is nothing "bad" or "overcosted" about the Praetorians, and the existence of Wraiths in the same Codex doesn't magically make it so.

The only way Triarchs and Wraiths are "close" is that they're both jump infantry. Wraiths have an invul save, the ability to take on a variety of targets, and can take wargear to mitigate I2. Triarchs can do slightly better damage than wraiths to Meq/Teq, or to vehicles, chosen in your list.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The point I was making with Nemesor and the Res Orb are their are synergisms available to the TPs that aren't available to the Wraiths. Their is nothing you can do to Wraiths to give them RP, however there are things you can do to TPs, like screening them with shadoloomed Tomb Blades the first turn (they don't have to be shadowloomed of course, but if its opart of your strategy to turbo booost them, might as well), that can shore up their lack of invulnerable. Also, you're not taking Nemesor, or the DLord, or the Tomb Blades to "shore up" the weaknesses of the TPs, your taking them because they are good units in there own right, but they also have the added bonus of synergizing with some units quite well. Tomb Blades are fast units that can bring their own cover saves and stealth and have Gauss shots, so can screen the TPs, they can stun vehicles to make them easy KPs for the TPs, and they are fast enough to run with the TPs and do disembark denial and the like. Similiarly, Nemesor is a great force multiplier for large units, and the two units in the dex that can get the most bang for the buck out of him are Lychguard and TPs.

. . . You are really trying to make the point that Wraiths don't synergize with DLords and the Nemsor?
A Destroyer Lord and the Nemsor both power up wraiths just as well as Triarchs. You don't get the slight increase in RP from a Rez Orb, but Wraiths give your Destroyer Lord a great invulnerable delivery vehicle. The Nemsor allows you to deepstrike all your Wraiths at once if you so chose, and can give them furious charge. Now, if you have spare elite slots, why not throw in some Deathmarks to back up your Wraiths, to take out elite enemy units or tough models? Why not some flayed ones, to hit hordes? With a destroyer lord, the Wraiths don't have to worry about vehicles either. Or the Nemsor can just give them Tank Hunters. Either way, a unit of Wraiths can at least engage any threat the opponent can field (Barring very powerful deathstars).

The point with Nemesor is that TPs can make a bigger unit and therefore spread his buff across more models.

The point with them being close, is, well, they are close. VB/PC TPs and Wraiths have very similar stat lines. RP is basically and invuln against shooting and while not as good in assault, in conjunction with their strong armor save is actually better then the 3++ against non power weapons. They have higher toughness but less wounds, and they will always have their pistol shot, where wraiths seldom take it, so they have a way of thinning out units they assault prior to initiative, which effectively crunches the numbers in a similar fashion as whip coils does. If you don't realise how close the too function against all targets then your making some false assumptions that simply aren't backed up by the facts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Even your strength 3 hits example takes place in a vacuum where the wraiths didn't get to make use of whip coils to attack first and reduce the number of incoming attacks but the TPs get the benefit of an expensive res orb. using the identicle point cost example, 5 wraiths assaulting into 30 shoota boyz kill ~7 then take ~2.5 wounds. 5 TPs assaulting into 30 shoota boyz kill ~3 and take ~1 death. Still almost identical kill to death ratios and ignoring the overall necron army theme of having great anti light infantry guns that makes a good anti str3 (but not swarm) jump assault unit largely irrelevant and the numbers get progressively more in wraiths favor if you put in the obvious power klaw nob or extend into further rounds of combat where the TPs have a third of the wraith's attacks rather than half on the charge.

I apologise for hijacking the thread, I can see this is going to need its own post soon as there are a lot of preconceived notions about these two units that are just plain wrong, but wanted to point out some flaws in your math here. You clearly have the wraiths striking first, when their is absolutely no way your going to whip coil 30 bases, and you clearly don't have the TPs shooting their pistols...which they are not doing because...?

Really, the notion that they should cost 32 points is simply laughable. 32 point for a 5 strength 5 Toughness 3+ armour save, RP, rending, entropic jump pack unit? It would be the most broken unit in the game.

Just my quick suggestion for a list:

Overlord - Command Barge & other goodies.
Destroyer Lord - Goodies.

5 Triach Praetorians - VB/PC (w/ Destroyer Lord)

8 Immortals - Tesla
Vieltek

5 Warriors
Lancetek

5 Warriors
Lancetek

5 Tomb Blades
5 Wraiths
5 Wraiths

Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge

~1850pts

I don't actually own the Necron Codex, but judging from what I've read, I reckon this could be a pretty solid list using the jump/fast theme. Someone with the 'dex is welcome to flesh it out.
The thoughts would be for the Annihilation Barges and Warriors to provide covering fire and pop transports, whilst the Wraiths, Praetorians, Destroyer Lord and Overlord is shoved down the enemy's throat, with the Immortals Deep-striking up-field.
Just my thoughts.

Keep up the great Necron threads, Junk!

jy2 wrote:
Finally, the tomb blades. I like their speed. I like their firepower. I like the unit itself. Unfortunately in the 4 games that I've played with them, they haven't lived up to expectations. Partially because my opponents were too afraid of them and focused on them.

This is the drawback to any good unit. If its hard hitting, slow and resilient, it can soak up fire before it goes. If it's hard hitting and fast it can do damage before it goes. If its hard hitting and neither fast nor resilient you're never going to see how good the unit is because a worthy opponent is going to make it a priority and blow it off the map first turn every time.

@just dave: That is a solid list, I can see a role for it all. Running the 'goodies' as what i would take, and upgrading the wraiths for some wound allocation, the list comes in at 1950 points, so one more wraith with a PC/whip coils makes a round 2k list.

I like this list, I might have to try it at some point.

And follows the ultimate question : WHEN ARE THE WRAITHS COMING OUT GODDAM IT??


As for all the people fighting tooth and nail to defend the TP's : Yes, we all want to play them, but something somewhere IS telling you...wraiths are just better. Basically I10, 3++, 2 wounds, str 6 rending attacks, jump infantry that ignores terrain? Come on...

If only the faq had ruled that whip coils brought halberds to I1 (which would just be logical, what is UP with that ruling)...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Didnt even mention fearless, the lack of which is the reason why I've given up on lychguard..run away twice in two games, in fights they would have won on the long term and that would have won me the game?

Bad luck? Sure, but never again, never again...

I like the idea of praetorians advancing just behind transports or fast attack units with invulnerable saves and then branching off to put that threat range to good use.

Or finding their way to the back field. It is really nice that they are both a reliable answer to meq heavy weapons teams and tank fire. Just so expensive!

They seem really cute if you already have a full fast slot. It's nice to know they are there, given how decisive the fast slot is. If you don't have room for wraiths or scarabs you have a unit that is kind of a over priced wish wash of both.

What I keep in mind when thinking about units like these, is how I really don't want to ram them into a vehicle just to be shot to death next turn, or get multi charged by its contents and anything nearby. That's why things like CCB, HGC, lightning strikes and the eldrich lance are important to make sure you have juicy targets. Unless you are really confident in your ability to divide their forces.

It's very nice that you can ram these things into tanks and transports and such, but you have to be careful with them!
I really have a hard time justifying having a DLord in any list that would run these jetpack units. The barges are just so valuable. I guess at low point values it still makes sense, but the attacks in the movement phase rule.

One brief note is the Destroyer Lord can also take wounds that would otherwise gimp the Praetorians, such as a Krak Missile or something, thanks to his invulnerable.

Dlords can't get an invulnerable save but the example still applies to sempiternal weave so we'll go with that.

Let's steer away from preatorians for awhile and talk more about tomb blades. All its weapon options are good; twin linked tesla is more 6s, gauss blasters that get jetbike relentless without the need of a phaeron, and a particularly vicious and cheap blast weapon. The only real shortcomings are the tiny squad size and the 4+ save. Do you ever want to get the upgrades? A 24" scout move is pretty gnarly but with a warrior's stat line +1t do you really want to be jumping ahead of the rest of your army? Is the 3+ or BS5 ever worth it? Would you ever rather just get destroyers with the better meq weapon that already has the 3+ save and may effectively be bs5 if the 6th ed preferred enemy stuff pans out?
And probably most importantly, is it worth a fast attack slot to get an anti light infantry shooting unit when all of our scoring mandatory troops are already great anti light infantry shooting units?

It would seem a test game would need to be done for some of these unit suggestions... I see tomb blades as a deadly harrassing force, too deadly to ignore, too cheap to focus on... With particle beamers they can pop transports and glance AV12, I intend to boost them around, so they get cover saves and absorb enemy fire, then, when the enemy focuses on my army instead, THEN I stop boosting them and open fire.

Just Dave wrote:One brief note is the Destroyer Lord can also take wounds that would otherwise gimp the Praetorians, such as a Krak Missile or something, thanks to his invulnerable.

A Destroyer lord can't take an Invul. He can take a Weave though, which is a 2+

I can't believe that I missed one of Junk's lists to take apart the Necron Codex.
Here's a Deepstrike/Jump list that I came up with a few weeks ago. I'm interested in seeing where it stacks-up with what you have.

Destroyer Lord w/Orb (155)
Destroyer Lord w/Weave (140)
10 Tesla Immortals w/Night Scythe (270)
10 Gauss Immortals w/Night Scythe (270)
5 Warriors
6 well-kitted Wraiths (250)
5 well-kitted Wraiths (215)
5 Destroyers, 3 heavy (260)
Monolith
Doom Scythe

Alright, So I just finished a 2000 point game with 10 praetorians and 2 destroyer lords backed up by 5 tomb blades, 3 Heavy destroyers, 10 scarabs, 25 immortals, 2 night scythes, unfortunately, my opponent unpacked an army that consisted of 30 terminators and some scouts. Annihilation. I got my ass handed to me. I played my balls off, trying to stay as mobile as possible, but a line of 30 terminators closing in on me eventually corralled me, withstood most of my shooting, and eventually crushed me in assault.

The whole time I was thinking, why the hell didn't I play tremor crons or wraithwing...

@Junk
You asked me at one point if I had a list with Lych and D Lord...
Well I actually tried this 1.5k list list against BA yesterday with Lychguard and a D Lord.
It went fairly well actually. I lost, but it was a close game and more due to my crappy tactics (and because he had mephiston...I should have used the lychguard against him ).
List is here.

D. Lord
mindshackle
total - 145

Elite

5 deathmarks

5 lychguard
shields
Nightscythe
Total - 325

Troops

10 warriors
Ghost Ark
Total - 245

10 warriors
Ghost Ark
total - 245

Fast

4 wraiths
2 Whip Coils
total - 160

7 scarabs

Heavy Support

annihilation barge -
gauss cannon

annihilation barge
gauss cannon

total - 1500

So, DS lych+dlord next to a HQ or other valuable bit of enemy army and assault it to death next turn?

IHateNids wrote:So, DS lych+dlord next to a HQ or other valuable bit of enemy army and assault it to death next turn?

Lol, if only I were that intelligent.
No, I used the night scythe with the Lychguard to harass the enemies rear and contest their objectives, and sent the Lord + Wraiths against his land raider.
It would have worked...if I hadn't let mephy run around.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IHateNids wrote:So, DS lych+dlord next to a HQ or other valuable bit of enemy army and assault it to death next turn?

Lol, if only I were that intelligent.
No, I used the night scythe with the Lychguard to harass the enemies rear and contest their objectives, and sent the Lord + Wraiths against his land raider.
It would have worked...if I hadn't let mephy run around.

DS in assault range of mephy then.

If the opponent's army shoots them with any AP3 or better weapons, deflect the shots at mephy
If mephy assaults take all the saves on lych as they have 4++ from shields. Then a S7 preffered enemy will hit and wound 3 times (Rest In Pieces mephy), unless your dice are weighted to 1s

IHateNids wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IHateNids wrote:So, DS lych+dlord next to a HQ or other valuable bit of enemy army and assault it to death next turn?

Lol, if only I were that intelligent.
No, I used the night scythe with the Lychguard to harass the enemies rear and contest their objectives, and sent the Lord + Wraiths against his land raider.
It would have worked...if I hadn't let mephy run around.

DS in assault range of mephy then.

If the opponent's army shoots them with any AP3 or better weapons, deflect the shots at mephy
If mephy assaults take all the saves on lych as they have 4++ from shields. Then a S7 preffered enemy will hit and wound 3 times (Rest In Pieces mephy), unless your dice are weighted to 1s

Yes, exactly what I should have done. I am sure that had the Lychguard assaulted Mephy, he would have went down like a sack of bricks.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IHateNids wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

IHateNids wrote:So, DS lych+dlord next to a HQ or other valuable bit of enemy army and assault it to death next turn?

Lol, if only I were that intelligent.
No, I used the night scythe with the Lychguard to harass the enemies rear and contest their objectives, and sent the Lord + Wraiths against his land raider.
It would have worked...if I hadn't let mephy run around.

DS in assault range of mephy then.

If the opponent's army shoots them with any AP3 or better weapons, deflect the shots at mephy
If mephy assaults take all the saves on lych as they have 4++ from shields. Then a S7 preffered enemy will hit and wound 3 times (Rest In Pieces mephy), unless your dice are weighted to 1s

Yes, exactly what I should have done. I am sure that had the Lychguard assaulted Mephy, he would have went down like a sack of bricks.

Problem solved