Here is an older thread referencing the issue I am now questioning. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/358287.page#3942951

Basically can Mordrak assign himself an ability from grand strategy specifically making himself scoring? His Ghost knight unit is prevented from the assignment but he himself is not. Given the Necron special character Trayzan being a character that can join squads and maintaining his own ability to score I feel you should be able to do this with Mordrak's while in his own Ghost Knight unit.

You have to pick a unit, then lists units that cannot be picked

There is no way, with Ghost Knights present, to pick Mordrak because he is not a unit separate from the disallowed Ghost Knights

If he is alone, then you can make him scoring.

nosferatu1001 wrote:You have to pick a unit, then lists units that cannot be picked

There is no way, with Ghost Knights present, to pick Mordrak because he is not a unit separate from the disallowed Ghost Knights

If he is alone, then you can make him scoring.

Can you please explain to me why the ghost knights arrn't a unit that can be selected? The rule for Ghost Knights explicitly states that the Ghost Knights are a unit to which Mordrak is treated as an upgrade character.

Ghost knights are prevented by the rules of Grand Strategy but Mordrak is not since he isn't a unit of ghost knights, nor an IC.

I'd agree, especially since the Ghostly Bodyguard entry says, " ... until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to a single model unit in his own right." Meaning Mordrak and his Ghost Knights are different units - but only when the Knights aren't around. He can't be made scoring if he's with his Knights.

thakabalpuphorsefishguy wrote:
Can you please explain to me why the ghost knights arrn't a unit that can be selected? The rule for Ghost Knights explicitly states that the Ghost Knights are a unit to which Mordrak is treated as an upgrade character.

And? Read Grand Strategy, and read the exceptions to the units that can be selected

NecronLord3 wrote:Ghost knights are prevented by the rules of Grand Strategy but Mordrak is not since he isn't a unit of ghost knights, nor an IC.

Find the Mordrak UNIT on the table, when Ghost Knights are present. Remember the first bit of GS, which requires you to select a UNIT? Once you have found the Mordrak unit, NOT the Mordrak+Ghost Knight Unit, then you can select him for GS.

Hint: he doesnt exist as a separate unit, unless the ghosts are all dead or he was bought alone

Well check First to the Fray where it specifically references Mordrak AND the unit he is attached to. The Ghostly body guard rules state that he acts as an upgrade character to unit. Though he is clearly purchased as a separate entry and Grand Strategy takes place before deployment of forces.

Before deployment i s after list building, which is when you have bought the GhK for mordrak. He is a UC for the unit, not a separate unit - you just said as much!

He is never a unit by himself, unless his GhK are dead or were never bought. Check the definition of units.

Bear in mind: I *run* Mordrak, so I would love for him to be scoring. He just isnt, unless you take him without GhK, which is a waste

Acting as an upgrade character, does not make him an upgrade character. His unit entry is very different from Justicar Thawn which clearly treats him as such and states it as so in the unit entry. Mordrak contains no such limitation.

NecronLord3 wrote:Acting as an upgrade character, does not make him an upgrade character. His unit entry is very different from Justicar Thawn which clearly treats him as such and states it as so in the unit entry. Mordrak contains no such limitation.

Acting as is the same thing as counts as which is the same thing as is. Treating them differently leads to insanity.

You can elect Mordrak if he wasn't bought with the Ghost Knights. If he is, you can't elect him because he doesn't exist by himself - it's a unit of Ghost Knights with Mordrak as the leader - not a separate unit - the Ghostly Bodyguard says it's one unit, not two. For your interpretation to work, there must be a unit separate from the Ghost Knights that is Mordrak - and there isn't.

NecronLord3 wrote:Acting as an upgrade character, does not make him an upgrade character. His unit entry is very different from Justicar Thawn which clearly treats him as such and states it as so in the unit entry. Mordrak contains no such limitation.

Wrong. Again, find the separate "Mordrak" unit. If you can find a separate unit I will then start shooting at said separate unit. Good job pgae 3 tells us tehre is only one unit.

Okay then Justicar Thawn makes his whole unit fearless.

Sigh. Arey ou still arguing that there is a separate "Mordrak" unit? Because I'm shooting it.

Actually address and answer a point, instead of starting something different. Its an irritating way to argue, and likely to annoy.

No, he doesnt, because the unit isnt fearless. You have a fearless model in a non-fearless unit

And you can have a scoring model in a non-scoring unit.

As for seperate entries pg. 82. Mordrak is purchased as an entirely seperate entry from the Ghost Knight unit. Unlike Justicar thrawn which is purchased as an upgrade to a squad of Terminator Grey Knights. In fact you could even argue that the Ghost Knights may be purchased without Mordrak as there is no limitation in their unit entry as to how they are selected.

There are plenty of 'count as' examples in the past. Destroyers counting as Jetbikes, Dread Knights county as Jump Infantry, Stealth Suits count as if the Night Fight rules are in effect. However 3rd ed Destroyers only moved as Jetbikes, Dread Knights move as Jump Infantry but remain MCs. And Stealth Suits use the night fight rules without night fight actually being in effect. Just as Mordrak can be granted Scoring and count as an upgrade character when attached to a unit of Ghost Knights without actually being an upgrade character. Effectively the Ghost Knights are more of an upgrade unit to Mordrak than he is an upgrade character to them.

Mordrak cannot "revert" to a single model unit unless he isn't one to begin with. Ghostly Bodyguard says he reverts if there are no more Ghost Knights. Therefore, he is not a single model unit when there are Ghost Knights.

How hard is that to understand?

There is no single model stipulation in the Grand Strategy rule, only prevention of assigning to ICs, non-walker vehicles, henchman and Mordraks's unit of Ghost Knights.

Does Mordrak fit any of these criteria? No.

Is he a Ghost Knight? No.

Are Ghost Knights a separate unit entry? Yes.

Can he be assigned scoring? Yes.

Does he cease being a scoring unit when he joins a unit of Ghost Knights? No.

Do the Ghost Knights become scoring? No.

Is there precedent for this to function in other aspects of the game? Yes(Trayzan & Thawn) Scoring model in a non scoring unit. Justicar Thawn, fearless model in a non-fearless unit. There are rules specifically restricting Justicar Thawn from using fearless while in a squad that is not also fearless. There are no rules restricting Mordrak from being a scoring unit while in a non-scoring unit of Ghost Knights.

NecronLord3 wrote:There is no single model stipulation in the Grand Strategy rule, only prevention of assigning to ICs, non-walker vehicles, henchman and Mordraks's unit of Ghost Knights.

Correct.

Does Mordrak fit any of these criteria? No.

Correct.

Is he a Ghost Knight? No.

Correct.

Can he be assigned scoring? Yes.

GK Codex, page 40 wrote:
Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit

That is "Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights".
Mordrak cannot be made scoring if you purchase Ghost Knights.

Does he cease being a scoring unit when he joins a unit of Ghost Knights? No.

He doesn't join a unit of Ghost Knights he is in a unit. There's a difference.

Is there precedent for this to function in other aspects of the game? Yes(Trayzan & Thawn) Scoring model in a non scoring unit.

Has nothing to do with Mordrak.

Justicar Thawn, fearless model in a non-fearless unit.

Has nothing to do with Mordrak.


Yes, Mordrak when solo can be made scoring.
If you purchase Mordrak's Ghost Knights, he is no long Mordrak - he's a member of Mordrak's Ghost Knights, which cannot be made scoring.
He's not his own unit - he is a member of a multi-model unit.

Let me repeat that, since it seems to be the point you're missing:

Mordrak is not prohibited from being made scoring.
Mordrak, as an individual Character unit, does not exist if there are Ghost Knights on the board/in your list.
Since Grand Strategy requires you to pick a unit, you cannot pick Mordrak because he is not an individual unit.

If you don't buy Ghost Knights but elect to run Mordrak solo (why?) he could be made scoring, but since the Mordrak unit you elected does not exist while Ghost Knights are on the board, he is not a scoring model inside a non-scoring unit.

I'm not going to get into KP issues (if you kill off all the Ghost Knights in one turn, and Mordrak the next, is that 2KP or 1? Another thread...)

Mordrak's kill points is covered in the FAQ. No need to discuss.

Mordrak is a separate unit from the Ghost Knights. First to the Fray makes this clear. Ghostly bodyguard only makes him 'count as' an upgrade character, it does not make him one, unlike Justicar Thawn. They form a unit during play but Grand Strategy is assigned before setup.

NecronLord3 wrote:Mordrak's kill points is covered in the FAQ. No need to discuss.

Good to know - I hadn't looked there yet.

Mordrak is a separate unit from the Ghost Knights. First to the Fray makes this clear.

FttF clarifies that ICs joining his Ghost Knight unit are okay to come in as well.

Ghostly bodyguard only makes him 'count as' an upgrade character, it does not make him one, unlike Justicar Thawn.

As I said before, "counts as" must be the same thing as "is" or the rules fail miserably in insane ways.

They form a unit during play but Grand Strategy is assigned before setup.

You have no basis for the first part of that sentence. The Ghostly Bodyguard rule says "Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit." and goes on to say that if all the Ghost Knights are slain he "reverts to being a single model unit in his own right."

Therefore he is not a single model unit while the Ghost Knights are in the list/on the table. Therefore he is not eligible to be elected for scoring.

Nos and rigeld2 are completely on target here. I'm surprised this is even a subject of debate. Mordrak is as legitimately as much a member of the Ghost Knights squad as a Sergeant is in an Tac Squad.

"Mordrak is a separate unit from the Ghost Knights"
No, he isnt. He really, really isnt.

If you INSIST on him being a separate unt then I WILL SHOOT AT MORDRAK, as I target UNITS with shooting. If you really, really, really want to belive that he is a separate unit, then I will direct shooting on him.

Sheesh.

Or, back in the real world of actual rules: you are required, through GS, to select a UNIT. Mordrak, when you have bought GhK, is not a separate unit to the GhK, but a single unit with them. He is therefore NOT a legal target as you cannot target the GhK unit, due to the restrictions.

Just give it up.

Then by that logic Justicar Thawn is the unit of Terminators and therefore they are fearless.

No. He's in the unit of Terminators and the Fearless USR says they aren't fearless.

Thrawn and Mordrak are not similar enough to compare. It's like comparing a Hive Tyrant to a SM Captain.

Why not? He isn't and IC joining a unit. Hell he isn't really joined to the unit right? He is the unit. He is not a character joined after all he is a unit upgrade therefore not limited to USR of fearless that pertains to characters joined to a unit.

NecronLord3 wrote:Then by that logic Justicar Thawn is the unit of Terminators and therefore they are fearless.

It's really apples and oranges you're comparing here, but hell, I'll bite. How? Fearless specifically states:

However, as long as a fearless character stays with a unit that is not fearless.

A single specific upgrade character (that REALLY is an upgrade character) added to the squad that gets fearless cannot actually use fearless as long as he's with everyone else in his squad. That ability comes into play when he's by himself after getting resurrected.

Now what you are wanting to do is use an ability on a Mordrak and his unit of Ghost Knights which specifically states that it can't be used on "Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights". There is no amount of bad analogies or contextual wrangling you can use to justify why being able to use the ability on a unit of (1 Mordrak & 1+ Ghost Knights) is permitted, and since you can't ever have ghost knights sans Mordrak at this point, you can't get away with saying that a given unit of Ghost Knights does not belong to Mordrak.

It occurs to me that you might just be failing to understand the rules at a fundamental level. That would explain the confusion. You realize this isn't a retinue or anything weird like that, right? The only way Mordrak can separate from his Ghost Knights, becoming his own unit, is if they all die. You can't single Mordrak out in melee combat. He is a fundamental part of the squad.

If Mordrak is purchased and ghost knights are purchased the doesn't that make the unit "Grand master mordraks Ghost knights"?
If you purchase Mordrak and ghost knights does the units name change to Ghost knights? With mordrak being a separate, named model in that unit. Such as a tac marine sergeant or a sanguinary novitiate in a unit of honour guard.
This is how it reads to me, but it doesn't spell it out specifically so there doesn't appear to be any way to know for sure. The Grand strategy ability seems to imply that the unit name changes to Ghost knights, but it's only circumstantial.

NecronLord3 wrote: therefore not limited to USR of fearless that pertains to characters joined to a unit.

Page 91, his sidebar about halfway down:

Unit Type:
Infantry (character)

Now check my quote on fearless from the rulebook.


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Dok wrote:If Mordrak is purchased and ghost knights are purchased the doesn't that make the unit "Grand master mordraks Ghost knights"?
If you purchase Mordrak and ghost knights does the units name change to Ghost knights? With mordrak being a separate, named model in that unit. Such as a tac marine sergeant or a sanguinary novitiate in a unit of honour guard.
This is how it reads to me, but it doesn't spell it out specifically so there doesn't appear to be any way to know for sure. The Grand strategy ability seems to imply that the unit name changes to Ghost knights, but it's only circumstantial.

Well, do this: Assume that there is no rule put into the codex at the time of it's printing deliberately designed to never come in to play. This is excluding anomalies where Old One Eye has special rules he can't use because he's still a Carnifex at the end of the day. There is only one circumstance that the "Mordrak's Ghost Knights" exclusion clause can come in to play. Why on EARTH shouldn't it be followed?


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Actually, rereading it, it does say that Mordrak acts as the upgrade character for a Ghost Knight squad if you buy any, so yeah, I gotta say that they're "Mordrak's Ghost Knights" through and through.

The rule clearly comes into play with regard to the scouting ability of Grand Strategy. If all members are not scouts then the unit cannot scout. However, one member can be scoring in a unit that is not scoring.


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daedalus wrote:

It occurs to me that you might just be failing to understand the rules at a fundamental level. That would explain the confusion. You realize this isn't a retinue or anything weird like that, right? The only way Mordrak can separate from his Ghost Knights, becoming his own unit, is if they all die. You can't single Mordrak out in melee combat. He is a fundamental part of the squad.

I understand the rules quite well thank you. You seem to being having trouble with the english language. Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights is not mutulally inclusive of Mordrak. Just as my car is "Paul's Chevy Cobalt" it does not fail to be Paul's Chevy Cobalt when I am not in it.

NecronLord3 wrote:The rule clearly comes into play with regard to the scouting ability of Grand Strategy. If all members are not scouts then the unit cannot scout. However, one member can be scoring in a unit that is not scoring.

Right. Now provide for me a circumstance where, during any part of the game, including pre-deployment, Mordrak and the Ghost Knights are ever units independent of one-another. You can't, because it doesn't specify. By taking a unit of Ghost Knights, Mordrak automatically becomes the upgrade character for it. It doesn't indicate that this happens before, during, or after the game, because there is no time frame for which they don't exist. The sheer inclusion of them within the list mandates this occurs.

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daedalus wrote:

It occurs to me that you might just be failing to understand the rules at a fundamental level. That would explain the confusion. You realize this isn't a retinue or anything weird like that, right? The only way Mordrak can separate from his Ghost Knights, becoming his own unit, is if they all die. You can't single Mordrak out in melee combat. He is a fundamental part of the squad.

I understand the rules quite well thank you. You seem to being having trouble with the english language. Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights is not mutulally inclusive of Mordrak. Just as my car is "Paul's Chevy Cobalt" it does not fail to be Paul's Chevy Cobalt when I am not in it.

Your Cobalt doesn't have a special rule stating that it ceases to exist the moment you're not in it, or at least, I assume it doesn't. Per the last line in Ghostly Bodyguard on page 40, it reads to me as though Mordrak's Unit of Ghost Knights is quite 'mutulally' inclusive of Mordrak. Since I have trouble with the english language though, do explain to me when, precisely and with game terminology please, Ghost Knights exist NOT as a function of Mordrak.

Odd that this is debated since it stated in the first faq mordrak's ghostly bodyguard could not be made scoring. Even if mordrak himself could be made scoring as soon as he gains a ghost the scoring is nulified. That'd be kinda a waste.

Here's a fun thought exercise. Why would they bother to mention that you can't use the ability on the Ghost Knights if using it on Mordrak was perfectly legit? Why bother to specify that?

Actually there is no requirement that you take Mordrak in the Ghost Knight's unit section of the codex. It does not say in Mordrak's entry that he can be taken as a unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights and there is no requirement that you purchase Mordrak to purchase the Ghost Knights. Unlike Thawn, who specifies that he may be purchased as a replacement for a Justicar in 1 Terminator Squad.

He considered an upgrade character of the ghost knight squad and they leave when he does. Since he's an upgrade and the rules state ghosts can't be made scoring what's there to debate?


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Read both faq's and the codex and it's clear neither can be mde scoring. Also taking the ghost knight without mordrak? What part of the foc would they fulfill since they go away without mordrak. lol

daedalus wrote:Here's a fun thought exercise. Why would they bother to mention that you can't use the ability on the Ghost Knights if using it on Mordrak was perfectly legit? Why bother to specify that?

How about to not let them scout, re-roll 1s to wound, gain counter-attack or being scoring themselves.

NecronLord3 wrote:Actually there is no requirement that you take Mordrak in the Ghost Knight's unit section of the codex. It does not say in Mordrak's entry that he can be taken as a unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights and there is no requirement that you purchase Mordrak to purchase the Ghost Knights. Unlike Thawn, who specifies that he may be purchased as a replacement for a Justicar in 1 Terminator Squad.

That's because, if you don't take any Ghost Knights, you can still have Mordrak.

That does not, in any way, change the fact that IF you have Ghost Knights, Mordrak is an Upgrade Character for that unit of Ghost Knights. Period. That won't change, no matter what. He isn't a separate unit, if there are Ghost Knights in your army.

"Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an Upgrade Character. . ."

So, you have an army that includes Mordrak, and some Ghost Knights. At the beginning of the battle, you roll for Grand Strategy. Now; check the list of units you may NOT make scoring. "Grand Master Mordrak's unit of Ghost Knights" is on that list. That means the unit can't be made scoring. . . and Mordrak is part of the unit.

Which means you cannot make him scoring.

NecronLord3 wrote:Actually there is no requirement that you take Mordrak in the Ghost Knight's unit section of the codex. It does not say in Mordrak's entry that he can be taken as a unit upgrade for the Ghost Knights and there is no requirement that you purchase Mordrak to purchase the Ghost Knights. Unlike Thawn, who specifies that he may be purchased as a replacement for a Justicar in 1 Terminator Squad.

I see what you're saying, were it not for the fact that it covers that he's an upgrade character on page 40, Ghost Knights appear in the outlined sidebar box normally reserved for upgrade characters, their special rule reference page is the same as Mordraks, and that under Mordraks Ghostly Bodyguard rule, it has to specify that "An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights". Interestingly, by your rationale, Ghost Knights wouldn't have Stealth unless you take them with Mordrak, as his special rule is also the only place that it mentions they have it.

Draigo wrote:He considered an upgrade character of the ghost knight squad and they leave when he does. Since he's an upgrade and the rules state ghosts can't be made scoring what's there to debate?


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Read both faq's and the codex and it's clear neither can be mde scoring. Also taking the ghost knight without mordrak? What part of the foc would they fulfill since they go away without mordrak. lol

Being an upgrade character does not prevent the assigning of Grand Strategy.

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Being an upgrade character does not prevent the assigning of Grand Strategy.

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

If you're an upgrade character in a unit that is specifically prohibited from Grand Strategy, then yes it does.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't becouse the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't becouse it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

Who said that, reread maybe? I wrote back to your post, about how they would work fine as HQ without Mordrak. With it dosen't becouse the rule don't allow it, so we should stick to only using real rule in this argument.

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

Who said that, reread maybe? I wrote back to your post, about how they would work fine as HQ without Mordrak. With it dosen't becouse the rule don't allow it, so we should stick to only using real rule in this argument.

What rule precludes the use of Ghost Knights as an HQ? I see no such limitation. The unit entry for Ghost Knights does not require Mordrak to be taken in the same army as Ghost Knights.

NecronLord3 wrote:Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

...
You're trolling us now, right?

Page 40, GK Codex.

An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights

Where's your permission outside of that to take Ghost Knights? In the army list they're boxed out under Mordrak - because you can only take them if you take Mordrak.

They are not separate.

The way it says in the codex is if you field Mordrak you can take them. They're not theyre own stand alone. They also place a box around their entry below Mordrak to show they aren't a regular entry.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Ghost Knights could function fine without Mordrak if allowed to be purchased separately they would be an HQ and since Mordrak isn't on the board to be removed as a casualty then they also could not be removed.

Sure they could.... What, NO they can't because the rules don't allow it. It that simply, Painboyz (not the SC) would work great as a HQ like in older Codex, but NO they can't because it not in the 4th current Codex. Not in the rules, means it can't function fine that way, SO there NO reason to bring it up. Were talking about the rules, not what we like the rules to be.

Where does it say you can't take the Ghost Knights as an HQ?

Who said that, reread maybe? I wrote back to your post, about how they would work fine as HQ without Mordrak. With it dosen't becouse the rule don't allow it, so we should stick to only using real rule in this argument.

What rule precludes the use of Ghost Knights as an HQ? I see no such limitation. The unit entry for Ghost Knights does not require Mordrak to be taken in the same army as Ghost Knights.

LOL I think I'm going to piss myself. Did you really post that.

Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.


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Draigo wrote:The way it says in the codex is if you field Mordrak you can take them. They're not theyre own stand alone. They also place a box around their entry below Mordrak to show they aren't a regular entry.

You can take them, not that you can only take them when fielding Mordrak. Under the Unit entry Ghost Knights are available on their own with no requirements.

NecronLord3 wrote:Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.

So, you really think you can take a Ghost Knight unit without Mordrak?

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.

So, you really think you can take a Ghost Knight unit without Mordrak?

No, my point is that they are separate units, purchased separately. If GW wanted them to be one unit with Mordrak as an Upgrade for all intents and purposes, the Ghost Knights would have been included in his unit entry. They were not, and are not, thus there is a reason they were kept separate leaving Mordrak subject to Grand Strategy.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Noir wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Unit Composition 1-5 Ghost Knights. Not 1-5 Ghost Knights + Mordrak. Mordrak Unit Composition 1(unique) Both Separate from one another.

So, you really think you can take a Ghost Knight unit without Mordrak?

No, my point is that they are separate units, purchased separately. If GW wanted them to be one unit with Mordrak as an Upgrade for all intents and purposes, the Ghost Knights would have been included in his unit entry. They were not, and are not, thus there is a reason they were kept separate leaving Mordrak subject to Grand Strategy.

Yes, if he dosen't take Ghost Knights. I think this has been go over.

They're entry in the army of titan is as a speacial rule of Mordrak. They cannot be taken seperate.

False. The fact that Ghost Knights are in a boxout under Mordrak's entry shows they are an option for his entry. This is consistent with all of the recent codices. If they were just another unit then they would have been formatted like any other unit.

NecronLord3 wrote:

No, my point is that they are separate units, purchased separately. If GW wanted them to be one unit with Mordrak as an Upgrade for all intents and purposes, the Ghost Knights would have been included in his unit entry. They were not, and are not, thus there is a reason they were kept separate leaving Mordrak subject to Grand Strategy.

Except they're NOT separate units. You can take Mordrak, alone. In that case, yes, he's a legal target for Grand Strategy.

But AS SOON AS A SINGLE GHOST KNIGHT IS PRESENT, he is no longer a legal target, because Mordrak and Ghost Knights are NOT separate units. You CANNOT target them separately; they are the SAME UNIT.

Well I've gone back to the orignal playtesting document and a funny line was left out of the final document:

If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice.

Since GW decided to leave this out of the final codex, it seems pretty clear they are meant to be separate units. And by the way if you are running Mordrak with a Unit of Ghost Knights and another HQ, your list is illegal.

Cept theyre boxed in as an entry UNDER Mordrak, do not have an entry in the army but listed as a speacial rule for Mordrak. He's not an IC and can only be with ghost knights you buy for him. Ghost knight cannot exist without Mordrak. So along with all the overwhelming info saying NO you continue on your stance that they're seperate. It's obvious you don't have a clue and have never read the codex.

NecronLord3 wrote:Well I've gone back to the orignal playtesting document and a funny line was left out of the final document:

If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice.

Since GW decided to leave this out of the final codex, it seems pretty clear they are meant to be separate units. And by the way if you are running Mordrak with a Unit of Ghost Knights and another HQ, your list is illegal.

Obvious troll is obvious.

Codex: Grey Knights, page 40 wrote:An army that includes Mordrak can also include a unit of Ghost Knights. Ghost Knights also always have the Stealth special rule due to their spectral nature. Mordrak and the Ghost Knights form a unit, with Mordrak acting as an upgrade character until such point as the Ghost Knights are slain, at which point he reverts to being a single-model unit in his own right.

This really isn't unclear at all.

NecronLord3 wrote:Well I've gone back to the orignal playtesting document and a funny line was left out of the final document:

If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice.

Since GW decided to leave this out of the final codex, it seems pretty clear they are meant to be separate units. And by the way if you are running Mordrak with a Unit of Ghost Knights and another HQ, your list is illegal.

No, if that line existed they would be separate units, since Mordrak would join the Ghost Knights.
That line does not exist, and the actual rules state that Mordrak's Ghost Knights are a different unit from Mordrak solo.
Since you cannot make Mordrak's Ghost Knights scoring, and Mordrak is not a separate unit, you cannot make him scoring unless you buy him solo.

And your last statement is false and has no rules basis.
Mordrak is purchased. He allows you to purchase Ghost Knights as a bodyguard.
Mordrak and these Ghost Knights make up one unit. Hence, one HQ slot.

Jeez guys read the rules why don't ya how more obvious can you get?

"An Army that includes Mordack can also include a unit of Ghost Knights"

Mordack = Ghost Knights no Mordack = No Ghost Knights

Mordack and the Ghost Knights form a unit ... A unit not two or 5 or 7 .... one unit.

He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation. By himself ID with his ghostly mates UC

RETINUES
"Some Codex books allow you to field characters together with a special unit that they cannot leave during the game (which is normally called a ‘retinue’, ‘bodyguard’ or similar). Where this is the case, the character counts as an upgrade character until all of the other members of this unit are killed, at which point it starts counting as an independent character and it will do so for the rest of the game."

As a member of the unit he cannot have the GS because he is part of the Grey Knight unit once they are all dead or if you never bought them in the first place he is an Independent Character and still can't have the GS.


"If your army includes Grand Master Mordrak, he can be joined by a unit of Ghost Knights. This unit does not take up an HQ choice."

I would have said that actually confirms that the Ghosts aren't a separate unit because they don't take up a slot in similar fashion of other retinues.
I think they left it out because it is unnecessary as it is obvious they are a retinue.

Only point I need to clarify is ........ If Mordack is wounded and you HAVEN'T purchased the Grey Knights pre game :
Does he take the test to have a Grey Knight to turn up to save him? I think he does.

Yeah, it's pretty clear what RAI is here, especially with the tidbit under Grand Strategy preventing Ghost Knights from being scoring.

I guess you can argue about the RAW and semantics of it all, if that turns you on.

He's never an IC look at the army list. In his own entry it says he acts like an upgrade for the ghost knights.

Magpie wrote:He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation.

Mordrak, like Mephiston for example is never an Independent Character.

Magpie wrote:if you never bought them in the first place he is an Independent Character and still can't have the GS.

Your suggestion to read the rules is amusing when you say this. Considering its absolutely false and all.
He's not an IC. Ever.

Only point I need to clarify is ........ If Mordack is wounded and you HAVEN'T purchased the Grey Knights pre game :
Does he take the test to have a Grey Knight to turn up to save him? I think he does.

Nothing to do with this thread, but I'm pretty sure yes. My book isn't nearby however.

Whenever Mordrak suffers an unsaved wound, roll a D3 at
the end of the phase. If the result is equal to or greater than
the number of Morgrak's remaining wounds, a Ghost Knight
appears to defend him. Place a new Ghost Knight within
coherency of Mordrak's unit-it joins Mordrak's unit to all
intents and purposes.

Ghaz wrote:

Magpie wrote:He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation.

Mordrak, like Mephiston for example is never an Independent Character.

Is there a rules reference for that ?

I've not found anywhere that says that Mordack cannot be an Independent Character.
Don't care about Mephiston I've always thought he was a bit dodgy actually, but thing is he doesn't have a retinue so his characterness isn't subject to change
The rules quoted under Retinues show that models with bodyguards count as Independent characters when their bodyguard isn't around.

As a somewhat oblique support for it I note that all other Grand Masters are independent characters so fluff wise it would seem to support he is too,

So yeah, you don't have the option of not rolling.

Although the Ghost Knights "earned" from that are evidently different from the Bodyguard. The wound knights join his unit, while he becomes part of the bodyguard unit. So if he was solo, they'd be joining his solo unit and not be Mordrak's Ghost Knights, they'd be Mordrak and friends.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Magpie wrote:

Ghaz wrote:

Magpie wrote:He isn't stipulated as an Independent Character or Upgrade Character because he is both depending on the situation.

Mordrak, like Mephiston for example is never an Independent Character.

Is there a rules reference for that ?

I've not found anywhere that says that Mordack cannot be an Independent Character. Don't care about Mephiston I've always thought he was a bit dodgy actually
The rules quoted under Retinues show that models with bodyguards count as Independent characters when their bodyguard isn't around.

As a somewhat oblique support for it I note that all other Grand Masters are independent characters so fluff wise it would seem to support he is too,

Crowe is also not an IC.
Mordrak doesnt have a retinue - its a unit similar to a retinue, but not one.
Mordrak is simply a unique special character like many others.

They aren't a bodyguard. lol It's a speacial rule. The army list entry says hes not an IC.

Page 40 and 82 of the Grey Knight Codex "Ghostly Bodyguard"
Page 48 of the rulebook "which is normally called a ‘retinue’,
‘bodyguard’ or similar"

Can you give me a reference that shows he is excluded from the retinue rule?

Thanks for the heads up in the free GGK's too guys

The ghost rule says if all the ghosts die he becomes a single model unit. It states he does does change type to IC. Your confusing the name of his speacial rule with an actual retinue. The characters that have a retinue clearly state in their rules not a vague inference based on the speacial rules name.

Draigo wrote:The ghost rule says if all the ghosts die he becomes a single model unit. It states he does does change type to IC. Your confusing the name of his speacial rule with an actual retinue. The characters that have a retinue clearly state in their rules not a vague inference based on the speacial rules name.

Oh ok, does that mean an Inquisitor can leave his/her warband then?

Magpie wrote:

Draigo wrote:The ghost rule says if all the ghosts die he becomes a single model unit. It states he does does change type to IC. Your confusing the name of his speacial rule with an actual retinue. The characters that have a retinue clearly state in their rules not a vague inference based on the speacial rules name.

Oh ok, does that mean an Inquisitor can leave his/her warband then?

Yes because their existence does not require him. They only need him for inclusion in the list. Also the Inquisitor most importantly is an IC.

Can you tell me a character that does have a retinue ?

Hive Tyrants (including The Swarmlord) get a retinue of a sorts. HT's can join a unit of TG as if the HT is an IC. While together, the HT cannot be shot at separately, and fights with the TG in CC (as an upgrade character). Additionally, the whole group is 1 KP. However, the HT is never an IC. If this doesn't help I do apologize, as it is Mardi Gras, and I did have a bit too much of the Creature.

LOL ! Glad you're enjoying yourself ! half ya luck

Magpie wrote:Is there a rules reference for that ?

Its simple. He doesn't have the Independent Character special rule, therefore he is not one. Likewise there is no rule saying that an Upgrade Character becomes an Independent Character when he is by himself.

No but there is a rule that says that characters who cannot leave their special units count as upgrade characters until their unit is killed where after they count as IC's.

Mordark gets a special unit he can't leave and the special rule itself even confirms that he operates as an upgrade character.

No, there is a rule that says that INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS lose that and count as a UC *then* return to being an IC again. Read the retinue rule more carefully, and note it requires you to *return* to being an IC.

Mordrak is never, at any point in the game, ever an IC. Ever. It is not a retinue.

Necron - you cannot pick Mordrak, because he is not a separate unit, when you roll GS, when you buy GjK. List creation, which is before you roll for GS, requires that Mordrak + GhK are a single unit. GS requires that you pick units. You cannot pick Mordrak, as he is not a separate unit.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, there is a rule that says that INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS lose that and count as a UC *then* return to being an IC again. Read the retinue rule more carefully, and note it requires you to *return* to being an IC.

Mordrak is never, at any point in the game, ever an IC. Ever. It is not a retinue.

Necron - you cannot pick Mordrak, because he is not a separate unit, when you roll GS, when you buy GjK. List creation, which is before you roll for GS, requires that Mordrak + GhK are a single unit. GS requires that you pick units. You cannot pick Mordrak, as he is not a separate unit.

Actually it says "Some Codex books allow you to field characters" no independent mentioned, "normally called a ‘retinue’,‘bodyguard’ or similar" it is called a bodyguard in the special rule, "at which point it starts counting as an independent character" STARTS not returns

Page 47 under the IC rules:

"...and it's rules will clearly state that the model is an independent character".

Yes I see that, which I'd reckon would discount my thought earlier that he was an IC even if you don't buy the Ghost Knight unit but I am still fairly sure that the Retinue rule applies to him 100%.

The only point would be that the bit that says "at which point he reverts to being a single model unit in his own right" could be seen to overturn the requirement to be an IC under the retinue rule.

Man, this thread went strange quick.

Magpie wrote:Yes I see that, which I'd reckon would discount my thought earlier that he was an IC even if you don't buy the Ghost Knight unit but I am still fairly sure that the Retinue rule applies to him 100%.

No. You must be an Independent Character for the Retinue rule to apply. It's included in the Independent Character section. You don't even reference that section unless - guess what - you're an Independent Character.

Mordrak is not an Independent Character. He's just a Character.

rigeld2 wrote:

Magpie wrote:Yes I see that, which I'd reckon would discount my thought earlier that he was an IC even if you don't buy the Ghost Knight unit but I am still fairly sure that the Retinue rule applies to him 100%.

No. You must be an Independent Character for the Retinue rule to apply. It's included in the Independent Character section. You don't even reference that section unless - guess what - you're an Independent Character.

Mordrak is not an Independent Character. He's just a Character.

Not true, the retinue bit just says "some characters" all other references in that section say "independent character" as the specific case.

...and all contained in the specific "Independent Characters" section of the rulebook. Unless you start off as an IC, you dont get to reference that section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:...and all contained in the specific "Independent Characters" section of the rulebook. Unless you start off as an IC, you dont get to reference that section.

Nah, not buying it

Magpie wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:...and all contained in the specific "Independent Characters" section of the rulebook. Unless you start off as an IC, you dont get to reference that section.

Nah, not buying it

... What? You're not buying that's how the rules work?

What is giving you permission to reference the retinue section?

It specifically says in mordraks rule that he returns to being a single model unit if all the ghost knights die. So the end of the retinue rules have nothing to do with this.

So, to summarise:

1) He is never, when you buy GhK, a unit eligible for GS. Thus, unless you keep him entirely solo, he can never be made scoring.

2) GhK are NOT A RETINUE, as Mordrak +GhK does not fit the definition of such, and as such Mordrak is never an IC and never worth 2KP

Any other "interpretation" just ignores the rules, and can thus be ignored

Well like I said before the section you are referring to mention "Independent Character" in all rules but for the retinue one.

I really don't think the position of a rule is necessarily exclusive, confusing formatting for sure but not exclusive.

Perhaps the fact that those rules are within a box indicates that that section is out of the general flow of the rules for that section?.Seems to be the case throughout the book.

But OK if we put that one aside as being left to agree to disagree, How is a Retinue specifically defined? i.e. How do you know a group of models is a Retinue?

Magpie wrote:Well like I said before the section you are referring to mention "Independent Character" in all rules but for the retinue one.

I really don't think the position of a rule is necessarily exclusive, confusing formatting for sure but not exclusive.

Perhaps the fact that those rules are within a box indicates that that section is out of the general flow of the rules for that section?.Seems to be the case throughout the book.

The issue is that Mordrak does not have the Independent Character rule, and he has no way to gain it. He's not an Independent Character, because being an Independent Character means having the Independent Character rule.

Been over that I'm going to leave it there for the sake of moving the discussion on

No matter how you want the rule to be magpie no to will let you run it that way. The rule is as has been explained numerous times. He is not an IC, never will be an IC and does not have a retinue. The ghosts are an effect of his speacial rule.

Draigo wrote:No matter how you want the rule to be magpie no to will let you run it that way. The rule is as has been explained numerous times. He is not an IC, never will be an IC and does not have a retinue. The ghosts are an effect of his speacial rule.

I have no desire for the rule to be anything mate, I don't really care one way or the other. 100 times out of 10 I work all this stuff out before a die is rolled.
It is good to bat it about tho'

So did anyone come up with an idea of how a retinue is defined ?

I note in the 4th ed Codexs for Witchhunters and Daemonhunters the word Retinue is used in the preamble in the Inquisitors section but if we go off that being the definition the Command Squads and Honour Guards of SM become retinues as well?

Or is this moving too far off the original thread?

Retinues are mostly gone now; they're in the 5th ed rulebook principally to cover the 4th ed codices which were out at the time and still had Retinues in them.

Yeh that certainly seems to be the way, I could only find references in the BT and Witchhunter codices.

Strange tho' that the 5th Edition rule book still referes to them tho', seemingly changing the criterion to being that is is a unit from which the character cannot leave.