Perhaps Nemo’s greatest creation, the Stormwall towers over Cygnar’s enemies with all the majesty and menace of a looming cloudburst. From the thunder of its guns to the blinding cracks of arcing electricity from its lightning pods, the Stormwall is the mechanikal embodiment of the tempest. Powered by both steam and surging voltaic energy, it riddles the enemy lines with cannon shells and hails of bullets before smashing survivors with its electrified fists.
Product Information
Base Size: 120mm
PIP Code: 31050
Price: $134.99*
Model Count: 1
Packaging: Box
*Product information and prices subject to change
Makes me question my allegiance to Khador. Are those lightning pods launchable arc nodes, or weapons? Either way it is crazy cool.
If you factor in a 20% discount form online retailers, it puts the colossals at $108. Certainly not chump change, but damn would they make a nice centerpiece!
Surtur wrote:$15 less than what the community projected. Nicely done!
Pfft - says who? I was hoping for the $115-125 range. Which would be a much better price point (as, with internet discounts, they would fall the the 100 price point - you get above $99 for a single mini, even a large one, and I get a lot pickier).
If this translates to £100 that's excellent value. Though to be fair to GW as well the stompa is excellently priced and they should make more of that price point and size kits, after all it's not like they're short of ideas. Though PP has integrated super heavy size "things" into there main game system far better than GW. I'm sure some enterprising gamers will be using the Khador one as a source of cheap warhound titans.
The design of this one breaks down for me: the gun workings (which would be sizabe considering the caliber those barrels suggest) and shoulder workings would have to ccupying the same space...
Not to mention the chain gun workings stuffed into that shoulder same real eastate to boot...
CT GAMER wrote:The design of this one breaks down for me: the gun workings (which would be sizabe considering the caliber those barrels suggest) and shoulder workings would have tooccupying the same space...
I like to think the upper cannons are launchers for the Lightning Pods.
CT GAMER wrote:The design of this one breaks down for me: the gun workings (which would be sizabe considering the caliber those barrels suggest) and shoulder workings would have tooccupying the same space...
Yeah. It is a clearly unrealistic design, unlike:
Automatically Appended Next Post: The pod things are solos.
I'm with CT on this one. It's another example of a Jack where it just has cannon barrels sticking out of its shoulders with no real thought given to how such a weapon would be fired or loaded, or even where the ammunition would be kept. The Gatling guns are ok, and might have been better mounted on the hips, but those cannons just don't work.
Grimtuff wrote:I like to think the upper cannons are launchers for the Lightning Pods.
Hmm...
"...it riddles the enemy lines with cannon shells..."
CT GAMER wrote:The design of this one breaks down for me: the gun workings (which would be sizabe considering the caliber those barrels suggest) and shoulder workings would have tooccupying the same space...
Yeah. It is a clearly unrealistic design, unlike:
And what is your point really?
I don't think I ever claimed the Russ was a realistic design.
Ths isn't a PP vs. GW thing.
Many of the models by both companies are unrealistic, but some make their design seem more plausible then others.
This model fails at it, compared to other warjack designs that do a better job at plausible design.
In fact PP had a series of Guts & Gears articles in NQ in which they had exploded diagram drawings of their warjacks, guns, armor, etc. So apparently they think it is an important thing to consider as well...
CT GAMER wrote:The design of this one breaks down for me: the gun workings (which would be sizabe considering the caliber those barrels suggest) and shoulder workings would have tooccupying the same space...
Yeah. It is a clearly unrealistic design, unlike:
Automatically Appended Next Post: The pod things are solos.
Grimtuff wrote:I like to think the upper cannons are launchers for the Lightning Pods.
Hmm...
"...it riddles the enemy lines with cannon shells..."
Sounds like 'shells' to me.
Rats!
Then where do the Lightning Pods get launched from? Yesterday's insider says it can use its superstructure system to deploy up to 3 of them. Silly Swans...
@gargantuan Typical GW fanboi making out all PP fans are GW haterz.
See what I did there ;-) lol
Having seen the concepts I have to say I'm really looking forward to the retribution colossal, screams final fantasy ready for some sexy freehand over its big smooth body yum!
Can't wait for the Mercenary colossal. This model needs more giant tridents and crane arms
They need a bit more sense of scale with that model, it would be great to get an impression of the actual size. Apparently it's entirely poseable as well, which is a big tick for me.
Way too far on the wrong side of $100 for my tastes. But the big question will be how the rules are. Will these be like the battle wagons or will these affect the battle enough that you will see and have to prepare for them always.
Yeah, if anything the Battle Engines seem to be a little underpowered... hopefully these are viable for 18-20 points, but not game-breaking.
Not the biggest fan of this particular one, but I love the concept and am looking forward to more! $135 seems about right, imo... makes it an obvious "just one, and at a discount" decision, though
The price tag is a no go for me. I normally think PP is pretty awesome, but this is a dog at $135 compared to the large model kits like the Trygon, Baneblade, and even some Forgeworld pieces at lower prices.
PP has been repackaging their units into full boxes, putting cavalry into full boxes and releasing things like the battle engines and this which is pushing up the price point for a single purchase.
Even though I don't even play 40k and do play Cygnar, I'm more likely to buy a Trygon than this thing. It's just a better kit for less money.
I think we're going to see the rules for these things be quite competitive compared to the battle engines.
I think if PP wants to sell lots of these, they need to be on the stronger side of their offerings in terms of rules. Right up there with the Deathjack, Banes + Tartarus, Gun Mages+UA , Avatar of Menoth, etc.,.
In other words, top tier leaning towards auto-include for a lot of people.
frozenwastes wrote:I think if PP wants to sell lots of these, they need to be on the stronger side of their offerings in terms of rules. Right up there with the Deathjack, Banes + Tartarus, Gun Mages+UA , Avatar of Menoth, etc.,.
In other words, top tier leaning towards auto-include for a lot of people.
Except PP doesnt do this. Historically power creep has been rather minimal in Warmahordes, and bigger, more costly models are not usually auto-includes nor game breakers.
Any news on what the FA will be on these guys? Are they character jacks? uniques? If not I would guess FA 1 or FA2 and heavy on points cost.
$135 is freaking expensive, no matter how big/huge the model. With tax that comes close to $150. While the colossals look really cool, I'm afraid that it will drive customers away from local game stores(which we all know already aren't the best money-makers in the world) and to the internet where they can get 20-30% discounts and free shipping. I know I won't be getting one anytime soon, online or off.
frozenwastes wrote:I think if PP wants to sell lots of these, they need to be on the stronger side of their offerings in terms of rules. Right up there with the Deathjack, Banes + Tartarus, Gun Mages+UA , Avatar of Menoth, etc.,.
In other words, top tier leaning towards auto-include for a lot of people.
Except PP doesnt do this. Historically power creep has been rather minimal in Warmahordes, and bigger, more costly models are not usually auto-includes nor game breakers.
I'm not sure the model alone without being really good in the game is enough to drive sales at $135.
Might pick up the Menoth one as a hobby project, turn it into a gaint walking cathedral with a scenic/diorama base. The Stormwall kinda look likes it belongs in Real Steel.
Very typical PP fan behaviour. If someone criticize PP just say that GW is worse.
I prefer Warmachine but I'm so tired of this.
QFT. I like WM, I really do. I think PP's creativity is lacking, but their game design is great.
However, I am insanely tired of "well, GW's worse" syndrome. Being better than GW isn't the goal: Being good is. (presumably)
PP minis so frequently lack common sense:
boilers right against bare skin
gun machinery where there should also be joints
the decimator and its giant revolver, where the gun chambers would never align with the barrel
man-o-war shields with barrels wider than they are long
etc, etc. These are things where, easily half the time, if someone I know who hasn't played WM looks at them, they point out "what?" re: the glaring mistakes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CT GAMER wrote:[Historically power creep has been rather minimal in Warmahordes
Gargantuan wrote:Very typical PP fan behaviour. If someone criticize PP just say that GW is worse.
I prefer Warmachine but I'm so tired of this.
Neither the PP or GW “hardcore” fans are at fault here. This is the result of “us vs them” syndrome in any PP thread where a GW comparison is made (or vice versa). Never understood the logic behind “us vs them” syndrome as at the end of the day, as long as you’re happy with your purchase, who cares what anyone else thinks.
As a humorous side note, I actually chuckled at the “GW is worse” part because it is usually true.
frozenwastes wrote:I think if PP wants to sell lots of these, they need to be on the stronger side of their offerings in terms of rules. Right up there with the Deathjack, Banes + Tartarus, Gun Mages+UA , Avatar of Menoth, etc.,.
In other words, top tier leaning towards auto-include for a lot of people.
Except PP doesnt do this. Historically power creep has been rather minimal in Warmahordes, and bigger, more costly models are not usually auto-includes nor game breakers.
I'm not sure the model alone without being really good in the game is enough to drive sales at $135.
I agree. It is an ok model, but I wouldnt pay full retail for it...
These are clearly pieces for collectors moreso than gamers. That thing is freaking sweet, I'd love to build and paint one just for the fun of it. Maybe I'd use it, but I don't play large enough games to justify a 20 point model since I really dislike larger games.
That said, I wonder how hard it would be to find a suitable stand-in. Looks to be about 5"~5.5" which is huge for miniature wargaming but it's about perfect for normal action figures. Buy a $3 120mm base and the unit card off the PP webstore, find a $20 mcfarlane toy or something similar and do a little conversion and paintwork.
I’m really tossing the idea of buying one around. It’s HUGE !!!!
Anyone know the stats on it?
What’s the RNG on those big guns?
If I can only find someone who sells below retail.......
Dang... Love that model! Price may be high, but it certainly looks to be fair for a resin model that size... Have to see about putting that on my slush fund "to buy at some point" list...
George Spiggott wrote:I could buy four more heavy warjacks/warbeasts for £85. It's big and nice but four heavy warjacks/warbeasts will get more table time.
Yea I have to agree. I like the model but I can not justify myself in paying for it.
Adam LongWalker wrote:Yea I have to agree. I like the model but I can not justify myself in paying for it.
Thinking further my whole 1750 point early war army will probably cost about £85. £85 is a lot to put down on one model for a game, even for a game I love.
Adam LongWalker wrote:Yea I have to agree. I like the model but I can not justify myself in paying for it.
Thinking further my whole 1750 point early war army will probably cost about £85. £85 is a lot to put down on one model for a game, even for a game I love.
I have some sourcing to do regarding a few things (not everything is made by the same company) but pretty much. Currently I estimate the army will come to £100.
Waiting for the rules but seeing the actual size of the colossal...I have to say that model changes my entire perspective on the game. If it is fully poseable combined with the ability to use them in non-massive games, I will get one no questions asked.
I've got a pretty big Cygnar army--and I know I'll eventually get one of these just to complete the collection--but I must admit, I really dislike the model. The guns look like a conversion/glued on after thought. I'm much more impressed by the Khador version.
George Spiggott wrote:I could buy four more heavy warjacks/warbeasts for £85. It's big and nice but four heavy warjacks/warbeasts will get more table time.
That's where we differ. I'm more likely to use masses of infantry
than four heavy warjacks. I tend to stick to the same one or two
heavies. Heck, I've been using Longriders with Horthol, which
costs MORE than a battle engine and fills less points in an army.
AgeOfEgos wrote:I've got a pretty big Cygnar army--and I know I'll eventually get one of these just to complete the collection--but I must admit, I really dislike the model. The guns look like a conversion/glued on after thought. I'm much more impressed by the Khador version.
I wish they had just lined the models up for that scale shot rather than photoshopping them together because it does t look right trying to gauge base sizes. The colossal looks too big in that shot. The jacks base is just over two inches wide compared to the colassals five, yet in the picture it o ly appears about a third of the size.
Also, I was expecting these two be one fifty, so o e thirty five ain't bad to me. I'm starting Khador in anticipation getting their colossal because it just looks so much more boss than the Cryx o e. It is a harsh price though, a d the FLGS said today they won't keep any on the shelf, you'll have to special order them because of the price.
It's very cool, but pretty expensive. Much better value than the Battle Engines in coolness: price ratio IMO.
This seems like a tiny thing, but why aren't the big shoulder mounted guns two part pieces, so that the barrels are hollow? Once I noticed it I can't stop looking and being disappointed. You know, like when you notice a really attractive woman is slightly cross eyed.
Holdenstein wrote:It's very cool, but pretty expensive. Much better value than the Battle Engines in coolness: price ratio IMO.
This^^
I didn't pick up any of the Battle Engines for either of the factions that I play, but I'm almost sure that I'm going to get a Stormwall, even if I doubt he'll get much table time I much prefer to play 35 pts games).
malfred wrote:That's where we differ. I'm more likely to use masses of infantry
than four heavy warjacks. I tend to stick to the same one or two
heavies. Heck, I've been using Longriders with Horthol, which
costs MORE than a battle engine and fills less points in an army.
I have a self imposed moratorium on £60+ unit. Bloodgorgers were the first unit I baulked at, I'd have snapped them up as a £30 plastic box, similarly I'd have bought two boxes of plastic Skinwalkers at £30 a box. Pretty much everything else I'll buy. I have three pretty large forces for Warmachine/Hordes and no complaints with what I have.
I really wish the Colossals were something more than simply big warjacks.
I know that's how they're roughly described in the fluff, but it just seems to need something more. I don't really like the aesthetic of the 40k Titans, but at least they did something different than "giant dreadnoughts." Hopefully the Hordes "Colossals" are better.
The concept for the battle engines was much better, IMO.
I have some sourcing to do regarding a few things (not everything is made by the same company) but pretty much. Currently I estimate the army will come to £100.
biccat wrote:I really wish the Colossals were something more than simply big warjacks.
I know that's how they're roughly described in the fluff, but it just seems to need something more. I don't really like the aesthetic of the 40k Titans, but at least they did something different than "giant dreadnoughts." Hopefully the Hordes "Colossals" are better.
The concept for the battle engines was much better, IMO.
This is where the saying "different strokes for different folks" comes from then!
I really, really, really disliked the battle engine concept exactly because warnouns were supposed to be the pinnacle of the Iron Kingdoms military technology and in that light a battle engine wouldn't make much sense in my mind, so I'm loving these new modernised Colossals...
PhantomViper wrote:I really, really, really disliked the battle engine concept exactly because warnouns were supposed to be the pinnacle of the Iron Kingdoms military technology and in that light a battle engine wouldn't make much sense in my mind, so I'm loving these new modernised Colossals...
I understand that sentiment. But from a purely model view, the Colossals aren't anything new. They're just scaled-up Warjacks. The Battle Engines (and I admit, many of them were silly models/concepts) at least had some variation from the Warjack concept.
In the game and fluff they're much different, but I think more could've been done on the model side of things.
PhantomViper wrote:
biccat wrote:
Plus, you know, Cygnaran dogs.
Cygnar victor!
You won't be saying that when the cleansing flames of Menoth are upon you. Instead you'll be saying "arrggghhh, it burns, it burns."
Any idea when this thing is going to be available? Ive been searching and cant find any word. Id like to know how much time I have to get the $$ set aside.
Mad4Minis wrote:Any idea when this thing is going to be available? Ive been searching and cant find any word. Id like to know how much time I have to get the $$ set aside.
If you watch the video preview on Privateer's website, you'll see that Colossals is supposed to be released around July 2012 (can't remember exactly if it's June, July, or August)... it may get pushed up to be announced or released at Lock and Load (or it might be a July release, with Lock and Load attendees being able to get their hands on these early), or it may be pushed back to a GenCon release...
CT GAMER wrote:Many of the models by both companies are unrealistic, but some make their design seem more plausible then others.
Agreed.
CT GAMER wrote:In fact PP had a series of Guts & Gears articles in NQ in which they had exploded diagram drawings of their warjacks, guns, armor, etc. So apparently they think it is an important thing to consider as well...
And your point is? Other companies do exactly the same thing in their publications featuring FICTIONAL equipment and/or machinery. I don't see how this practice suddenly holds them to some high standard in realism.
CT GAMER wrote:This isn't a GW vs PP thing
It never was. It is a given that in wargaming involving fictional constructs, a certain amount of unrealistic proportion and/or implausible mechanisms are par for the course. By in large, the most recent PP releases are generally optional add-ons as each faction pretty much has all the key units for each battlefield role. In addition, I miss the old "plainer" looking models from the first few waves. The new releases are typically so gear/bling festooned that they look like walking flea markets and/or ornamental knicknacks. I could go on as to the number of really duff models that PP has released as of late. I'm not going to speculate as to whether the Colossals are going to be Colossal WIN or Colossal FAIL. They seem like a niche product to me. Weaponmaster infantry will eat them alive.
You don't like the design asthetic. I get that. But seriously, I don't understand why one would hold them to a supposed bar of realism when they operate in a world where heavy infantry wear steam boilers against their bodies.
Gargantuan wrote:Very typical PP fan behaviour. If someone criticize PP just say that GW is worse.
Nah, not really, just that the Russ was an easy (and common) example. Just swap the Russ for any of these other models from other manufacturers.
Pilot goes where?
I'm not even going to begin to describe how this makes no sense.
IMHO, 50 points for $105 even with a 20% discount can't be done. Decent lists at 35 for that amount is very possible from most e-retailers however. Second list is possible for as little as buying another caster.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
infinite_array wrote:
keezus wrote:\
Pilot goes where?
Just like to point out that the Dragoes is a remote presence TAG, so the 'pilot' is actually sitting comfortably somewhere off the battlefield.
On a TAG like the Lizard, however, you can see the smaller arms, indicating where the pilot is.
Going from the exploded view, I think it would be perfectly possible to add a gun mount onto the shoulders instead of the silly barrel. I wonder if the Behemoth's bombards would be a good fit as a gun base. The Stormwall's cannons could then be fit to the bombard base as a barrel extension.
I guess I've never had a huge problem with things in my Steampunk or sci fi universes being THAT functional, but I can understand how it'd be a problem for some.
12thRonin wrote:Why? There's no requirement for a SR event that you HAVE to have multiple lists. That's generally only a requirement for Masters events.
This. To quote Steamroller:
Steamroller 2012 wrote:Players must bring two legible copies of all their army lists complete with point costs. Army list point totals cannot exceed the point size chosen for the game and cannot fall more than 2 points under the point size chosen for the event. Players must incorporate all bonus warjack or warbeast points in their army list(s) point total. A 50-point Kaelyssa army, for example, must include 55 to 57 points of models.
Players can bring a second list if they choose. All lists must be led by warcasters/warlocks from the same faction. Mercenary players can use different contracts or Theme Forces for their lists. Minion players can use different pacts or Theme Forces for their lists. Players cannot include the same version of a model or unit with FA:C in more than one list. The original and epic incarnation(s) of a character do not count as the same version of a model. Any player-determined model relationships (attached, client, marshaled, etc.) must be specified in the list and cannot change between rounds.
There's a variant that requires more than 1 list (Divide and Conquer), but it's by no means the standard format.
keezus wrote:
It is a given that in wargaming involving fictional constructs, a certain amount of unrealistic proportion and/or implausible mechanisms are par for the course.
Agreed, but this model just stretches it too far for me. Unless you want to pretend that an extra-dimensional space exists under those shoulder pads that is...
Its like they insisted on adding every iece of iconic Cygnar the (steam, electro, chaingun, etc.) ontot he same jack at all costs...
By in large, the most recent PP releases are generally optional add-ons as each faction pretty much has all the key units for each battlefield role. In addition, I miss the old "plainer" looking models from the first few waves. The new releases are typically so gear/bling festooned that they look like walking flea markets and/or ornamental knicknacks. I could go on as to the number of really duff models that PP has released as of late. I'm not going to speculate as to whether the Colossals are going to be Colossal WIN or Colossal FAIL.
Aagreed. I also much prefer the older waves and designs. The original Ironclad and Destroyer are models/designs that I love.
In particular I hate the redesign of the khador warjack lines from the older "ugly is beautiful" design; sort of like how ugly WWII Russian tanks have a sort of charm all their own, to the plastic Khador kits which now have more of a "spikey heavy metal" look.
You don't like the design asthetic. I get that. But seriously, I don't understand why one would hold them to a supposed bar of realism
We all hold our models to cetain bars. I find this model too busy and too implausible in design even by Warmachine/Immoren standards. Your mileage may vary...
My main objection was what seemd to be you implying that one could not dislike something because other things other people have mae may or may not also be bad design.
I'm torn on the Plastic Warjack chassis. (A bit OT)
Menoth:
The heavy is a huge improvement being wider stanced at the legs and sports a much more menacing profile thanks to its somewhat less cramped shoulders. Heads are a bit small, though it is passable in this case. Tellingly, the original Menite heavies were sculpted by McVey.
The light - in general, all the plastic light jacks are too big. They dwarf the metal light jacks. IMHO, the shoulders look awkward on the Menite light chassis, otherwise, they are passable.
Cygnar:
Where to begin. The torso itself is alright. Heads again are very small. Feet and hands are TINY compared to the metals. This is my biggest beef. The hands are so tiny they don't even wrap fully around the haft of the quake hammer. I could live with the plastic heavy being Ironclad MKII - sleeker and newer revision, but the tiny hands and feet ruin it for me. The chassis looks fine with Rowdy's arms though. I only own one and he's been converted to Gallant. Plastic chainguns can be put onto the metal ironclad without much issue.
Cygnar light warjacks are ENORMOUS. They are almost the size of the metal Khador heavies. Epic fail IMHO.
Khador:
The Khador heavy traded the apperance of width for additional height. IMHO this is a poor tradeoff. The entire thing is a sore spot for me, as the legs lack detail (the thigh and crotch plates in particular are conspicuously devoid of detail). I like the new Khador forearms/hands and the posability of the new shoulders. With a bit of sawing, the new hands and armored forearm cowls fit nicely on the old metals. Putting around 3 pennies on each side between the body and the shoulder joint increases width and fixes some of the problem, but doesn't correct the overly tall stack system in the middle. Only own one of these as well, used the decimator parts on a metal Juggernaut chassis and repurposed the leftover parts into Black Ivan.
Cryx:
New plastic heavy is almost identical to the metal. Good show.
New plastic light is again, too big, but follows the same aesthetic, if not the same profile. Don't know what posessed them to make the new chickens taller at the arcnode/stacks. A niggling point for those of us who have a lot of the old metals, but not really an issue for newer players.
Full disclosure: I am a Privateer Press fanboy and press ganger, but I am still
also a big fan of Games Workshop's models.
I went and edited posts doing the PP vs. GW thing.
If you disagree, feel free to flag my post or pm me or even yak. The problem
with these conversations is that they're never constructive and turn into all
out flamefests. Heck, I even hate posts about any new product that gets
peppered with alternatives to other companies. The news and rumors forum
is for showcasing news and rumors. I interpret that both sides of this debate
are being impolite in their treatment of others when really both sides should
be firmly in the middle, appreciating models regardless of company.
That does not mean we are not meant to be critical or constructive. However,
by firmly placing yourself in a camp and declaring the other to be wrong, I think
you are automatically surrendering your objectivity.
Like or dislike, I am doing this until someone with an actual pay grade stops me.
If you're going to mod that much of this thread (and I'm sorry, I don't think you should have as most of it was pertinent to the pricing release of the Colossals, none of it was overly combatative, etc) you may as well lock it. You've gutted so much of it while maintaining posts that allude or respond to modded posts that reading the thread no longer makes sense.
I believe your status as a press ganger is far too much coloring your heavy handed modding here. Comparing the pricing of these Colossals to comparable GW models is integral to determining a market value for them. The fact that you've kept the references to the infinity models only further proves your bias.
I respect the fact that you're making an attempt to "keep the peace," but I think you overstepped here just a bit.
cincydooley wrote:If you're going to mod that much of this thread (and I'm sorry, I don't think you should have as most of it was pertinent to the pricing release of the Colossals, none of it was overly combatative, etc) you may as well lock it.
Going back to the price arguement that sparked the whole GW/PP pissing match - I think the Ork Megadread is the closet GW product in size and scope to the Colossal. However, the two products can not be directly compared.
The Megadread is 71GBP (~$111.32USD as of March 9 2012). It can only be used with the accompanying Forgeworld book (ownership of core rules assumed) and not in tournament play. The Megadread is entirely resin, arguably better detailed, and presumably, made to order. It is only available from Forgeworld (with bonus crazy S+H prices) and comes shipped in a non-descript cardboard box with some stickers denoting its contents.
The Colossal's MSRP is reputed to be $135USD. It comes with the rules needed to use it. Usable in tournament play (presumably). The Colossal is a hybrid white metal resin kit. Arguably LESS detailed than the megadread. Designed for mass market (though with PP's supply problems, it might seem that they are made to order) with accompanying full retail packaging. Available (again, depending on supply issues) from your FLGS and most e-tailers. Likely at 20% off from the latter coming in at $108USD.
So, in conclusion, any assertion that GW would charge more for a similar model is clearly untrue. However, the assertion that the Colossal's price is unacceptably high is also incorrect. They are actually very close in price for similarly sized resin models, despite being marketed at different targets and have differing in game use. These days, prices are pretty much at parity.
cincydooley wrote:If you're going to mod that much of this thread (and I'm sorry, I don't think you should have as most of it was pertinent to the pricing release of the Colossals, none of it was overly combatative, etc) you may as well lock it. You've gutted so much of it while maintaining posts that allude or respond to modded posts that reading the thread no longer makes sense.
I believe your status as a press ganger is far too much coloring your heavy handed modding here. Comparing the pricing of these Colossals to comparable GW models is integral to determining a market value for them. The fact that you've kept the references to the infinity models only further proves your bias.
I respect the fact that you're making an attempt to "keep the peace," but I think you overstepped here just a bit.
100% agree.
I just got a flashback to PP's forums. I was pissed off with their aggressive moderation, but it's their company and their models, so they can do whatever they want. That's why I went from an active participant to an occasional visitor.
However, this isn't their forums, and this level of moderation rubs me really wrong. Personally, while off topic, I honestly didn't see it becoming any sort of flame, just a(n admittedly repetitive) discussion of pricing, and it really feels like it was ended to defend PP, not to encourage discussion. If the topic changes, it changes.
malfred wrote:
Read this Now:
Full disclosure: I am a Privateer Press fanboy and press ganger, but I am still
also a big fan of Games Workshop's models.
I went and edited posts doing the PP vs. GW thing.
(…)
However, by firmly placing yourself in a camp and declaring the other to be wrong, I think
you are automatically surrendering your objectivity.
Like or dislike, I am doing this until someone with an actual pay grade stops me.
I normally don't call people out on anything I feel really matters, but this stinks of hypocrisy, and doesn't befit mod behavior.
I support it. Guys, stop being dicks. Talk about PP. Talk about the new model. Then go enjoy the weekend. Me, I'm going to a British Pub in Houston with my girlfriend, my buddy, and his wife.
Full disclosure: I am a Privateer Press fanboy and press ganger, but I am still
also a big fan of Games Workshop's models.
I went and edited posts doing the PP vs. GW thing.
If you disagree, feel free to flag my post or pm me or even yak. The problem
with these conversations is that they're never constructive and turn into all
out flamefests. Heck, I even hate posts about any new product that gets
peppered with alternatives to other companies. The news and rumors forum
is for showcasing news and rumors. I interpret that both sides of this debate
are being impolite in their treatment of others when really both sides should
be firmly in the middle, appreciating models regardless of company.
That does not mean we are not meant to be critical or constructive. However,
by firmly placing yourself in a camp and declaring the other to be wrong, I think
you are automatically surrendering your objectivity.
Like or dislike, I am doing this until someone with an actual pay grade stops me.
In theory, I do not disagree with this statement. That being said, as SpiralingCadaver commented, this smacks of hypocrisy. Where is this kind of knee-jerk reaction when anti-GW hate-threads reach into their 20th page? Where is this kind of reaction when PP fanboys (of which I am one, and I will be purchasing two stormwalls at the earliest possible moment) derail entire threads with their OMG-another-price-hike rants, even when the thread has nothing to do with pricing? I'm not trying to pick on Malfred, I think he does a bang-up job as a Mod, his just happens to be the relevant post in this thread. The dicotomy that exists within how Mods treat "thread derailing comments" of GW supporters versus GW haters is blatant, and unfortunate. The whole derailment of THIS thread is a direct result of that dicotomy, and those of us sick of how GW is lambasted simply for being successful find it beautifully ironic that everything we predicted about the future of PP is coming true.
Of course, I fully expect this comment to be Moderated out of existence, but it has to be said. Hopefully the Mods have the courage to recognize the truth in this and going forward will be a little more fair in their duties.
GW hate threads appear and are sustained mostly by their own merits. GW does something stupid (measurable in an objective sense) and detractors and fans alike provide the fuel for the fire. There might be pro-PP or Pro Malifaux or whatever grumblings thrown in the mix but overall the people who complain are the fans. Current and Past fans.
with PP being the new kid on the block people seem to be compelled to compare GW and PP. Everyone does it. Is it fair? No. Is it expected? Yes. You cant have a PP thread without the inevitable comparisons because GW IS the watermark.
this is the inherent difficulty in moderating a PP post gone wrong. PPvGW comparisons go awry a moderator (regardless of who it is) is left with the unenviable job of refereeing and no matter what, it will look like the moderator has taken sides.
Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.
Proof? You're arguing about model aesthetics and GW-PP price per model correlation. Theres no way to argue that one out objectively unless youre talking about material weight by the effing gram!
I say we just lock this thread.
i can understand and tolerate fan-boy-ism but the new trend of faux-objectivism posturing in this thread was sad.
Bakerofish wrote:with PP being the new kid on the block people seem to be compelled to compare GW and PP
PP is more than 10 years old. I don't get why people keep thinking of them as the little company that could, or whatever.
Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.
I don't have a problem with that, so much as the mod response. Personally, I would have much preferred a lock to rampant censorship that felt like PP favoritism.
Bakerofish wrote:with PP being the new kid on the block people seem to be compelled to compare GW and PP
PP is more than 10 years old. I don't get why people keep thinking of them as the little company that could, or whatever.
Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.
I don't have a problem with that, so much as the mod response. Personally, I would have much preferred a lock to rampant censorship.
And to follow up on this point, the "pissing match" was particularly apt to the discussion, as a major factor in this discussion was the sticker shock of a $135 Land Raider. Or maybe the Tervigon is a more appropriate comparison. Whatever. As the sticker shock of the model in discussion was part of the conversation, the "we told you so"s that predicted such models and prices up to 10 years ago when PP first got started, are also relevant to the discussion. To said that the "pissing match" was unwarranted or not appropriate to the theme of this thread is to be out-and-out naive. Or - trying to think of a nice way to say cowardely - simply to maintain a gentile tone in the thread.
Was the tone unfortunate? Perhaps. Unwarranted? See my post above about bias in moderating said threads.
Have PP talked about the other big Jacks? Like will the Cryx one be some sort of four-legged monstrosity?
Going off the artwork shown in the video it seems like a mechanical squid, possibly an octopus.
As for the Stormwall, yep I want one.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that it had legs, like a Leviathan, somewhat, and the tentacles are in addition to...? But that may have been conjecture, and not fact.
I guess the biggest problem with what youve said so far is youre forgetting a simple truth:
The GW-Hate threads are usually started by GW Fans. Current or otherwise.Their criticisms are inherently GW centric so any moderation in that situation is easier to keep "fair"
PP threads get moderated or locked because of a GW vs PP attitude. Any moderation AT ALL will seem like taking sides.
Gotta agree that the mod action in this thread typifies exactly what was wrong with the privateer Press forums. The same sort of selective editing and squashing of anything that wasnt praise was silly at times..
Spiraling Cadaver pretty much nailed it.
So let me leave you with a PP forum approved closing message:
Thanks PP for a super great model. It is super neato and I plan to buy a couple of them. God bless Matt Wilson and all the awesome hard work of the studio staff and the mods here11111111
-=Edit= Since I posted this, there have been several snarky comments posted. If you're not discussing the Stormwall, it's off-topic. A few warnings have been sent.
QUIT IT.
DeathGod wrote:That being said, as SpiralingCadaver commented, this smacks of hypocrisy. Where is this kind of knee-jerk reaction when anti-GW hate-threads reach into their 20th page? Where is this kind of reaction when PP fanboys (of which I am one, and I will be purchasing two stormwalls at the earliest possible moment) derail entire threads with their OMG-another-price-hike rants, even when the thread has nothing to do with pricing?
Hypocrisy? Really?
All of the moderators see threads that veer slightly off-topic and into well-trodden discussions like the ones you mention. Sometimes we let them slide, or post a simple reminder to stay on-topic. Sometimes we do what Malfred did here, and removed a great deal of back-and-forth vitriol that isn't meaningful discussion about the new release. Just because we do this sometimes, and not all the time, doesn't mean that we are hypocritical about this. It's always been rather popular to lash out at moderators (not just here; any place with moderation will get this), but you have to realize that we're here to make things run more smoothly overall. Sometimes we miss things; I personally spend about an hour a day on Dakka Dakka, and I barely scratch the surface of the content (it's about 70/30 for pleasure reading/moderation).
It oftentimes comes down to the amount of effort required for a cleanup. I'm guessing that Malfred spent a good half-hour cleaning up this thread; that's a non-trivial amount of time for someone with a full-time job. We simply can't do it all the time, nor do I think we need to. Malfred clearly stated his biases in his post; it's not like he's hiding something (and he's not a GW opponent either; the man paints a LOT of miniatures).
We understand that posters can get nervous when Mods swing the big ol' Mod Hammer around like Malfred did. The thing is, we don't do it often. We use it when our frustrations have reached a breaking point, and we use it to make a point. I personally detest these 60-page News and Rumors threads that require 10 minutes of digging to find all the good bits of information; I feel that people's opinions of what's new (or even worse, wishlisting) don't add to the thread at all, especially comments like "Wow, this is so cool!" or "It's about time". This has become more of a problem in the past few years as Dakka's membership has grown.
Going back to your original points, we have seen many anti-GW threads and price hike threads, but most of them are in Dakka Discussions or 40K General Discussions, where they belong. They don't belong in News and Rumors.
I'm going to stop this here to keep it from being too much of a Stormwall of text (hah hah! Lorek's a lamer). I hope I've shed some more light on things from the moderator side though.
SKU Description MSRP TWS PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99
So there you go. You want this but don't want to pay $135? How about $108 then?
Bakerofish wrote:There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.
And I missed it!!! I wanted to see Aggy's post.
Bogus post. You have to use the MSRP or else a box of terminators is actually only 37.50.
Also, remember this whole "pissing match" was started because a Surtur decide to make the claim that "if it were FW it would be over $200"
ANYWAYS. The model is still an expensive model. The price, I would argue, is worse because it is "allowed in regular play". It's going to prove to price some folks out of being able to use it, and if the rules are good, isn't that exactly the type of situation they want to avoid?
cincydooley wrote: It's going to prove to price some folks out of being able to use it, and if the rules are good, isn't that exactly the type of situation they want to avoid?
this is only a problem if having a colossal distinctly puts your opponent at an immediate disadvantage or if the colossal is a must-have for every warcaster. Im having trouble seeing any of the infantry-based casters fielding them.
so far with Warmahordes, and as proven by the war engines, you dont need to have the big shiny toys to win. I dont see that changing with the arrival of the colossals at all.
If its something that you feel you must have then youll have to save up for it like anything really.
You dont need to buy it...but you will need to know how to kill it.
cincydooley wrote:Bogus post. You have to use the MSRP or else a box of terminators is actually only 37.50.
Bogus what? That's the Warstores discount price on this model nimrod - they are charging $107.99 for it, as per their newsletter. There's nothing bogus about it.
Here are all the others:
SKU Description MSRP TWS PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99 PIP 31093 Cygnar: Artificer General Nemo Epic Warcaster & Storm Chaser Adept Caitlin Finch Solo ~ JUN $21.99 $17.99 PIP 60005 Infernal Contraption, 2nd Edition ~ JUN $21.99 $17.99 PIP 73063 Legion of Everblight: Captain Farilor & Standard Blighted Nyss Legionnaire Character Unit Attachment ~ JUN $22.99 $18.99 PIP 75034 Minions: Road Hog Heavy Warbeast ~ JUN $47.99 $38.99
SKU Description MSRP TWS PIP 33098 Khador: Allies Kayazy Assassins Unit ~ MAR 14 $49.99 $39.99 PIP 35034 Retribution: Banshee/Daemon/Sphinx Heavy Myrmidon Kit (plastic) ~ MAR 14 $34.99 $27.99 PIP 35045 Retribution: Hypnos Character Heavy Myrmidon Upgrade Kit ~ MAR 14 $12.99 $10.99 PIP 72057 Circle Orboros: Feral/Pureblood/Stalker Warpwolf Kit (plastic) ~ MAR 14 $34.99 $27.99 PIP 72062 Circle Orboros: Ghetorix Character Warpwolf Upgrade Kit ~ MAR 14 $16.99 $13.99 PIP 74063 Skorne: Venator Slingers Unit ~ MAR 14 $49.99 $39.99 PIP NQ41 No Quarter Magazine #41 ~ MAR 21 Street Date $7.50 $5.99
Using it as the "standard price" is disingenuous at best. You can't assume everyone is able to get product at discount is the point I'm trying to make. You and me and lots of others know there are places to get your stuff for cheaper, but for folks w/o credit cards or in similar situations where they have to purchase at MSRP from an LGS using a discounted price for what a model can potentially be had for is incredibly misleading. Plus it would be $112 after shipping ;-)
cincydooley wrote:Using it as the "standard price" is disingenuous at best.
I never claimed it was the standard price, nor did I present it as the standard price. In fact, I showed the standard price and the discounted price.
cincydooley wrote:You can't assume everyone is able to get product at discount is the point I'm trying to make.
And not the point I was making. I was just showing a place where people could get it at a discount - nothing more. And why wouldn't everyone be able to get that discount? There's no worldwide embargo on shipping PP products outside of the US as far as I'm aware.
Just going to point out that we have some actual scale comparison photos of the Conquest next to Khador troops and the thing is easily 7-7.5" tall. It is, in fact, larger than the Mega-dread (which is closer to 5-6" at most) and only a bit shorter than the Warhound (which is around 8-9"). Not saying $135 isn't steep but this thing is approaching Titan size. Considering I spent $100 on an HHT-90 for Heavy Gear I think I will be saving for one of these guys for my Khador force.
But yeah, they are about 1-2" shorter than a warhound and come in at a third the price which isn't too shabby. They also take up a fair chunk of points on their own so they are a healthy chunk of an army in one package. Finally, they, like war engines, are likely not going to be a requirement in competitive play. So yeah, these guys are definitely for fun. I was originally going to pick up two of them for a Karchev list but they are much bigger than I thought they would be originally so I think I'll make due with one (and probably run Harkovich instead ).
Edit - Huh, added 10" to everything, stupid working late. In any case fixed. Also a Warhound is about 10.5".
Ronin_eX wrote:Just going to point out that we have some actual scale comparison photos of the Conquest next to Khador troops and the thing is easily 7-7.5" tall. It is, in fact, larger than the Mega-dread (which is closer to 5-6" at most) and only a bit shorter than the Warhound (which is around 8-9"). Not saying $135 isn't steep but this thing is approaching Titan size. Considering I spent $100 on an HHT-90 for Heavy Gear I think I will be saving for one of these guys for my Khador force.
But yeah, they are about 1-2" shorter than a warhound and come in at a third the price which isn't too shabby. They also take up a fair chunk of points on their own so they are a healthy chunk of an army in one package. Finally, they, like war engines, are likely not going to be a requirement in competitive play. So yeah, these guys are definitely for fun. I was originally going to pick up two of them for a Karchev list but they are much bigger than I thought they would be originally so I think I'll make due with one (and probably run Harkovich instead ).
Edit - Huh, added 10" to everything, stupid working late. In any case fixed. Also a Warhound is about 10.5".
I think that you haven't ever actually seen a Warhound In person. They are considerably taller than 8-9 inches. Plus they're wide. A Titan foot wouldn't fit on a 120mm.
@HBMC - there are PLENty of reasons one wouldn't be able to get one at a discount. You clearly didn't read my full post so I'll restate: no credit card to order online. If you don't have one and your LGS doesn't discount, you're paying full price.
SKU Description MSRP TWS PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99
So there you go. You want this but don't want to pay $135? How about $108 then?
That's silly. I always take it into account that I buy everything at ~20% off before I start bitching about prices. It's why I think PP missed the boat at not pricing it at $125 - then, with discounts it gets neatly to 100 or under. Anything over $100 for a single mini (even a not-so-mini one) and I start to get REALLY picky about them.
cincydooley wrote:The price, I would argue, is worse because it is "allowed in regular play". It's going to prove to price some folks out of being able to use it, and if the rules are good, isn't that exactly the type of situation they want to avoid?
I second Baker of Fish. If they are indeed 20 points, they are pretty much unplayable in 35 point games, ergo, they pose no barrier to entry. Combos that wreck heavy jacks with attacks to spare will buzzsaw through these like a knife through butter. We're talking commonly seen units that cost 1/2 the cost of a Colossal. IMHO, they are more of an army centerpiece, for huge games and/or special scenario events that a store might want to run.
If anything, Colossals are the same as Superheavies in 40k. I bought a Shadowsword because it looks cool. I'll buy a Conquest because it looks cool. I only used the Shadowsword ONCE, as it can only be used in APOCALYPSE games. Nobody I know runs apoc games because they need to be tightly organized. If they are poorly organized, they take forever to play, and usually, one side with the stompiest toys tables the other side, meaning 1/2 the players had fun, and the other half that got their armies removed by a hail of strength D templates gets kind of turned off the format. Being able to use the Conquest in a normal game - handicapping myself, is a happy bonus.
As for all the comparisons between GW and PP... c'mon guys, this is inevitable (if lamentable), considering that they are #1 and #2 in the market respectively. What the hell else are you going to compare new releases to? Mantic? Dark Age? Infinity? Malifaux? GW is at the top of the heap, so clearly, they are the bar by which this hobby is measured. GW management doesn't care what the naysayers say, so I don't see why this company demands such vigorous (often highly subjective and sometimes infantile) defense, especially in a thread for a competitor's product. Regarding the original offending post... all it takes is a reasoned post with price backup to debunk.
I think that PP's meteoric rise is finished. By in large, all original factions have enough models to satisfy almost every play style. While on the whole, their entire range has improved since the launch days, IMHO, a number of the new sculpts are clearly inferior to the originals - these include most of the plastic warjacks, the plastic man-o-wars, the new arcane tempest gunmages and the new plastic Stryker. If PP has not peaked, I think that they will peak soon. If they're smart, they'll hold the line and continue to put out new scenarios, mercenaries and warcasters to encourage new ways of play while churning out the odd new item and/or errata. Hopefully, they realize that while veterans will not buy models in huge quantities for their CURRENT army, if they like the system and play long enough, there's a decent chance they'll end up buying most of the ENTIRE RANGE, thus equaling a huge win for PP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On an aside, does anyone know the dimensions of a GW large oval base?
My friend made a good point about these- that he actually minds the cost less than a battle engine, because it's actually better for cost-to-points ratio.
Battle Engine: 9 points, $90 (i.e., $10 per 1 point)
Colossal: 18-20 points, $135 (i.e., $6.75 to $7.50 per 1 point)
I also think they'll be Crazy impressive on the tabletop, and so it'll be worth it to get one for me... given how many other models I've splurged on for my chosen faction (trollbloods- whatever the Hordes Colossals end up being called)
The Stormwall is rather meh IMHO, mostly due to the placement of its weapons. I'll probably get the Khador variant via Miniature Market, which has proven to be a reliable source for my WM needs.
As a player of Warmachine and not 40k/WFB, I still find the comparison with other large kits made by other manufacturers (like GW) to be very useful when discussing the price point of the Stormwall.
Privateer simply cannot match the price of GW's injection moulded plastic kits like the Trygon, Stompa, Arachnorok, etc., as doing an injection kit requires more units to be sold than PP is capable of.
They have no real choice but to make it resin and metal and price it high.
One way they could have lowered the price would be to go back to the original fluff where the colossals are not new, but old. They were the first "warjacks" from before there were even factions. Had Privateer gone with the angle of old colossals being brought out of retirement, found in Orgoth era weapons caches, etc.,. they could have made a single collosal kit with a common chasis and then individual weapons, parts and stylized faction options to make it the right faction.
Then the single kit would have more castings and more volume and the price could be lowered. Perhaps even the same type of plastic could be used as their heavy jack kits.
Instead they opted to make 6 different kits (possibly up to 10-11 once you include hordes) as the core of their next release.
Simple economics-- you can't make 6 kits that will sell less units at the same price as GW's plastic kits.
As for the individual customer-- they will have to decide if they find value here. I don't. I don't play 40k or WFB, and I'd still be more likely to buy a Trygon or an Arachnorok than the Stormwall, despite having a Cygnar army.
I must say I am underwhelmed by the looks of the colosal I really hope the PoM one looks better. As for the price, all I can say is the PoM colosal better look better before I consider buying one.
And this:
spiralingcadaver wrote:
Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.
I don't have a problem with that, so much as the mod response. Personally, I would have much preferred a lock to rampant censorship that felt like PP favoritism.
I was a pressganger for awhile back in MKI when the game was still good. I would never have used influences in other forums to hide the comparrisons. Back in the day we loved to have someone start it because that led to showing more of the advantage to the new game. Now to see a pressganger hide from it just goes to show you how far the game has slipped. For the record I still play both warmachine and Hordes as well as WH40K and WHF. I hoe PP gets back to what made them great in the begining.
darknightwing wrote:I would never have used influences in other forums to hide the comparrisons. Back in the day we loved to have someone start it because that led to showing more of the advantage to the new game. Now to see a pressganger hide from it just goes to show you how far the game has slipped.
*facepalm*
The comparisons are still there. They were never edited out. Backread! The only posts taken away were the ones where people started getting heated.
geez. Nobody went gestapo here.
And what is it with the need to predict a company's doom? "Back when the game was good" "PP has peaked"... do you get hipster points for doing so? People have been predicting GW's doom for years. Theyre still here. People have been predicting Warmachine's fall since Superiority. They're still here.
Lorek wrote:-=Edit= Since I posted this, there have been several snarky comments posted. If you're not discussing the Stormwall, it's off-topic. A few warnings have been sent.
QUIT IT.
DeathGod wrote:That being said, as SpiralingCadaver commented, this smacks of hypocrisy. Where is this kind of knee-jerk reaction when anti-GW hate-threads reach into their 20th page? Where is this kind of reaction when PP fanboys (of which I am one, and I will be purchasing two stormwalls at the earliest possible moment) derail entire threads with their OMG-another-price-hike rants, even when the thread has nothing to do with pricing?
Hypocrisy? Really?
All of the moderators see threads that veer slightly off-topic and into well-trodden discussions like the ones you mention. Sometimes we let them slide, or post a simple reminder to stay on-topic. Sometimes we do what Malfred did here, and removed a great deal of back-and-forth vitriol that isn't meaningful discussion about the new release. Just because we do this sometimes, and not all the time, doesn't mean that we are hypocritical about this. It's always been rather popular to lash out at moderators (not just here; any place with moderation will get this), but you have to realize that we're here to make things run more smoothly overall. Sometimes we miss things; I personally spend about an hour a day on Dakka Dakka, and I barely scratch the surface of the content (it's about 70/30 for pleasure reading/moderation).
It oftentimes comes down to the amount of effort required for a cleanup. I'm guessing that Malfred spent a good half-hour cleaning up this thread; that's a non-trivial amount of time for someone with a full-time job. We simply can't do it all the time, nor do I think we need to. Malfred clearly stated his biases in his post; it's not like he's hiding something (and he's not a GW opponent either; the man paints a LOT of miniatures).
We understand that posters can get nervous when Mods swing the big ol' Mod Hammer around like Malfred did. The thing is, we don't do it often. We use it when our frustrations have reached a breaking point, and we use it to make a point. I personally detest these 60-page News and Rumors threads that require 10 minutes of digging to find all the good bits of information; I feel that people's opinions of what's new (or even worse, wishlisting) don't add to the thread at all, especially comments like "Wow, this is so cool!" or "It's about time". This has become more of a problem in the past few years as Dakka's membership has grown.
Going back to your original points, we have seen many anti-GW threads and price hike threads, but most of them are in Dakka Discussions or 40K General Discussions, where they belong. They don't belong in News and Rumors.
I'm going to stop this here to keep it from being too much of a Stormwall of text (hah hah! Lorek's a lamer). I hope I've shed some more light on things from the moderator side though.
EDIT: Whoops, forgot to write my part, lol...
I bolded the hypocrisy in your claim to not be hypocritical (and let me again state that this is NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT directed at the particular Mods who have commented in this thread, but rather an in-general statement). The fact that you believe something to be crossing a line, and admittedly take one action sometimes, another action other times, and yet a third action in a handful of circumstances is, by definition, hypocrisy. Hypocrisy has a very heavy undertone in pop culture, but as a word, its use in this instance is very apropos. Perhaps "most" of the anti-GW threads do take place in Discussion sub-forums (I don't have access to those kind of statistics so I'll take your word for it), but as I only ever read News & Rumors and Paint Blogs, combined with the fact that I can't remember the last time I've gone a day without reading something hateriffic here at Dakka, I'm going to have to conclude that whatever the ratio is, it is still quite prolific.
And that doesn't change the fact that the removed comments were quite part and partial to one of the topics at hand - the sticker shock of the Stormwall and people's responses to it.
Just to end the Warhound is the same size as the Conquest, per Forgeworld's own page:
This model stands approximately 250mm/10.5 inches high depending on how the legs are constructed.
And when I saw these models, I didn't start comparing it to GW's stuff, I compared it to Maelstrom Games Banelords. ~$80 for a equivalent sized fig. For the price of the Stormwall, you get the Lord of Dis, and it's a massive chunk of solid resin. He isn't a figure, he is a murder weapon waiting to be used by an angry gamer
Yeah, I edited the end of my post to point out it was 10.5", so I already caught my mistake. So the Conquest is about 3" shorter than the Warhound and 2" taller than the Megadred. So its price should be somewhere in between the two. It is priced much closer to the Megadred of course but it is also a great deal bigger (note that the Conquest is nearly as wide as it is tall). I was just trying to say that comparing it to a smaller kit to say that the price was unreasonable is, itself, unreasonable. The thing is approaching the size of a small Titan and comes in at a third of the price of one as well. $135 is steep but this is obviously filling the same slot as a lot of other pricey toys you find in wargaming.
As for the Banelords stuff the size is close, but again, Colossals are bigger (the tallest one I've found is 170mm which is still shorter than the Conquest, and it manages to be quite a bit less bulky). Of course there is also Krull who is also smaller than the Conquest and weighs in at 85GPB which is basically exactly as much as a Colossal. They are nice minis to be sure, but they cost $80 because they are smaller and there is one instance where they cost exactly the same.
Again, for the size of the kit, comparing it to other "luxury" priced minis it is a fairly good deal. It is taller/wider and bulkier than everything that isn't a Warhound Titan so I'd say it is doing pretty good price wise. Between the Conquest and Krull, if each are fetching about the same price (Conquest may cost more, we'll see), I'll be going with the walking artillery piece for my $135 (but the Lord of Dis is impressive nonetheless).
deathholydeath wrote:For reference, my Chaos Warhound is 10.5" tall and 6" wide (from shoulder to shoulder).
So for further reference Conquest is 7 to 7.5 inches tall and 8.5 inches wide as per the Colossal video, where it's described as being as wide as the Legion BE is tall.
Don't forget to mention the number of fiddly pieces. The more parts there are the more complex the molding of it all gets a d that will increase the price in addition to the overall size of it.
deathholydeath wrote:For reference, my Chaos Warhound is 10.5" tall and 6" wide (from shoulder to shoulder).
So for further reference Conquest is 7 to 7.5 inches tall and 8.5 inches wide as per the Colossal video, where it's described as being as wide as the Legion BE is tall.
That width is blatantly wingspan rather than shoulder to shoulder. The shoulders are not wider than the base!
Comparisons are worthless though. All that really matters is whether enough people would like to buy one. If they do then we'll see more.
From a business standpoint, I would hope this (and others from Colossols) will be playable in normal games (35-50 pt range). I can't see PP selling near enough of them if it is only for large scale games (IE: Apocolypse style games).
It is a bit expensive as a stand alone model (IE: I would have to paint it very fast to avoid the fury of my wife after seeing the price tag). I've read the points for this model is in the 18-20 pt range, so that is a very significant percentage of your army in a single model ($135). Is that too high for 18-20 points when compared to other stuff folks normally buy for WM?
Personally, I think the model looks much, much better than the normal sized Warjacks. My biggest concern would be transporting something like that to the FLGS to game with it. If it falls off a table, that model looks like it would explode into a hundred tiny pieces.
With the advent of these newer and larger pieces, is WM still being played on a 4x4 surface?
One of the chief complaints I've read about this game is how caster kills is utlimately the end game. If this thing relies on a caster, would that not make it the ultimate achilles heel? I'll admit that would be a bit depressing to have such a cool piece on the table not be able to act b/c of a turn 1 or 2 caster kill.
Caster kill is a win condition, if yours dies the game is over and you lose, period. These are still on 4' tables, and their ranges aren't longer than anything else really, or at least the Battle Engines which are on the same five inch base aren't. Given PP's tendency to make sure you can't attack your opponent in their deoyment zone, I doubt these will have a range further than twenty inches on those big guns either.
keezus wrote:
I second Baker of Fish. If they are indeed 20 points, they are pretty much unplayable in 35 point games, ergo, they pose no barrier to entry. Combos that wreck heavy jacks with attacks to spare will buzzsaw through these like a knife through butter. We're talking commonly seen units that cost 1/2 the cost of a Colossal. IMHO, they are more of an army centerpiece, for huge games and/or special scenario events that a store might want to run.
You say that now, but tis is warmahordes. Someone, somewhere, is going to come up with a viable list. Khador? Colassal, battle mecahnics, manowar squad or two and away you go in 35 pts.
We havent seen the rules for them yet granted, but as I understand it, But they arent battle engines- they count as part of a battle group......so affect by casters spells, or perhaps even count against warjack points maybe(doubtful, but who knows).
Oh, it is nice to see my post get moderated, but the pissing match didn't stop and continued DIRECTLY after your mod warning, and those 2 pages haven't been moderated?
Feels like the PP forum in here... Guess talking about the pricing was different than the other posters who continue talking about the pricing?
- edit -
Oh yeah... That on topic thing that I'll get moderated for anyway.... At 135 bucks, the model does seem a bit pricey... But it would be nice knowing I could use it in normal Hordes games, while FW models are rarely if ever used without being proxied in some way.
frozenwastes wrote:As a player of Warmachine and not 40k/WFB, I still find the comparison with other large kits made by other manufacturers (like GW) to be very useful when discussing the price point of the Stormwall.
Privateer simply cannot match the price of GW's injection moulded plastic kits like the Trygon, Stompa, Arachnorok, etc., as doing an injection kit requires more units to be sold than PP is capable of.
They have no real choice but to make it resin and metal and price it high.
True, although comparing it to FW (I saw a previous poster did attempt to) shows it to be pretty much on the mark price-wise, in my opinion. Obviously, it can't compete with a huge, awesome plastic kit- but there aren't all that many from GW, either. I.e., in fantasy there's now one large dual-use monster kit per new release pretty much, and while that's awesome, I don't think it's to the same scale as this model.
Anyway, I'm getting it when they release the troll one . I'm too invested already not to!
BrookM wrote:The Stormwall is rather meh IMHO, mostly due to the placement of its weapons. I'll probably get the Khador variant via Miniature Market, which has proven to be a reliable source for my WM needs.
We think alike, BrookM (although I won't pick up the Khador one since I know so many Khador players... I'm sure at least one of them will, so I can see it in-person)
frozenwastes wrote:As a player of Warmachine and not 40k/WFB, I still find the comparison with other large kits made by other manufacturers (like GW) to be very useful when discussing the price point of the Stormwall.
Privateer simply cannot match the price of GW's injection moulded plastic kits like the Trygon, Stompa, Arachnorok, etc., as doing an injection kit requires more units to be sold than PP is capable of.
They have no real choice but to make it resin and metal and price it high.
True, although comparing it to FW (I saw a previous poster did attempt to) shows it to be pretty much on the mark price-wise, in my opinion. Obviously, it can't compete with a huge, awesome plastic kit- but there aren't all that many from GW, either. I.e., in fantasy there's now one large dual-use monster kit per new release pretty much, and while that's awesome, I don't think it's to the same scale as this model.
Anyway, I'm getting it when they release the troll one . I'm too invested already not to!
BrookM wrote:The Stormwall is rather meh IMHO, mostly due to the placement of its weapons. I'll probably get the Khador variant via Miniature Market, which has proven to be a reliable source for my WM needs.
We think alike, BrookM (although I won't pick up the Khador one since I know so many Khador players... I'm sure at least one of them will, so I can see it in-person)
My issue isn't the price of EITHER PP or GW/FW... It all comes down to usability. I'll use a Colossus/Battle Engine FAR MORE than I ever did my three Stompas.... Well, I am not sure about the Colossus yet....
Yeah, I'm hoping that's true for me, too! Just about to try out the battle engine(s ) I picked up, and hoping they're viable. It is nice not to have to get permission to use these crazy models, though (and, hopefully, still have them not be game-breaking).
After having purchased the WM starter, with the resi-plasti-whatever-they-use-stuff, I have good faith in these large models, hybrid kit or not. Chances of me fielding one though are slim to nil, I'll probably get one as a centre piece for my wee army, or dare I say it, my very first model to faff about with painting it all fancy and whatnot.
SO I showed the colossals to the wife and told her I was getting the blue one, for $135...she said "fine, but I want the awesome looking red one". So looks like PP will have me for one of each.
fire4effekt wrote:Lets keep arguing about price yipee!
Now consider that the Stormwall is a product that sits on the shelf next to the existing PP range. Where a customer can purchase it at the counter.
Now consider the FW equivelent, sitting in a bin in england, waiting to be ziplocked and sent to the customer.
FW the better bargain? How much is your time worth?
How much is my time worth? I don't even know what tha means in this regard. I can sit on my couch and order something online in my underwear, so who cares if the colossals are in the shelf.
Further, I love how the justifications to the price seem to want the best of everything:
Well you can buy it on the shelf but cheaper online.
Well you can use it in a "regular" game but I dont think I ever will because of the pOint cost.
You get it one way or the other. Not both, especially if you're going to use half of the argument as a justification as to why this $135 price tag is more acceptable than another $135 price tag.
However, the Battle Engine release didn't do very well at the local store. In fact, I haven't ever seen one be used in the shop, and I saw two once at a 30 man tournament.
As a result, the shop owner is pretty wary about stocking these items as the Battle Engines are already gathering a decent layer of dust.
As a troll player, I love the look of our Battle Engine but it seriously has no synergy with my caster, so it's a pass for me.
The battle engines are hit or miss. I've gotten good use out of mine, but honestly they're better played at point values far above the standard 35. At 50 that's the sweet spot. For colossals, they'll probably work better at 35 due to them being part of the battlegroup, counting as a warjack, and having access to focus.
One thing to remember is that the Colossals books also includes the full and final rules for Unbound battles, which are fights at 150 points or more.
It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use.
Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.
While these arguments have been used before. I'm buying Colossals for multiple reasons, first, for vanity. Let's face it, big models on the table are a great conversation piece, and I'm a very good painter.
Second, that's $135+tax of my money, but for the cost it's a large chunk of my army.
Third, unlike 40K Apocalypse stuff, I can use it in the base game much like how I use battle engines a lot even in smaller games. It may not be optimal in smaller games, but at least I have the choice of using it.
Fourth, PP have done a lot in the rules to make these things useful, such as the aforementioned aspects that make them immune to disruption, being stationary, etc. They feel like big things and when they hit the table they still do something, but aren't overpowered.
Lastly, it's hinted at abilities should fit well into my Cygnar army.
Vertrucio wrote:The battle engines are hit or miss. I've gotten good use out of mine, but honestly they're better played at point values far above the standard 35. At 50 that's the sweet spot. For colossals, they'll probably work better at 35 due to them being part of the battlegroup, counting as a warjack, and having access to focus.
One thing to remember is that the Colossals books also includes the full and final rules for Unbound battles, which are fights at 150 points or more.
It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use.
Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.
While these arguments have been used before. I'm buying Colossals for multiple reasons, first, for vanity. Let's face it, big models on the table are a great conversation piece, and I'm a very good painter.
Second, that's $135+tax of my money, but for the cost it's a large chunk of my army.
Third, unlike 40K Apocalypse stuff, I can use it in the base game much like how I use battle engines a lot even in smaller games. It may not be optimal in smaller games, but at least I have the choice of using it.
Fourth, PP have done a lot in the rules to make these things useful, such as the aforementioned aspects that make them immune to disruption, being stationary, etc. They feel like big things and when they hit the table they still do something, but aren't overpowered.
Lastly, it's hinted at abilities should fit well into my Cygnar army.
That is cool to know they can be used in normal games. To me, that is a huge incentive to get one. And yes, these would look very cool on the tabletop once nicely painted.
Vertrucio wrote:Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.
If they do that I bet it'll be called Mk. 3, lol...
"We're not making enough money! The Colossals didn't sell as well as expected!", "Bigger games = more models, make them play bigger games and they'll have to buy more models!" So then like 3rd edition 40k the rules will become super streamlined for faster play and points costs will all go down drastically so that the average army will double or triple in size. $$$$
Vertrucio wrote:Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.
Agreed... I can't imagine how long a 150 point match would take. Rules have to be streamlined at that level... you can't keep activating everything individually, or the like, for it to be at all manageable.
Looking forward to having the rules for it in one place, I just hope they tweak it a bit more before "setting it down" final...
I support it. Guys, stop being dicks. Talk about PP. Talk about the new model. Then go enjoy the weekend. Me, I'm going to a British Pub in Houston with my girlfriend, my buddy, and his wife.
Isn't this a case of 'well they were doing it anyway?'
I know I was playing games of Apocalypse before it was called Apocalypse. I'm sure that groups of players have gathered together their entire WM armies to play big games before. Why not support that with specific releases for those big games?
However, the Battle Engine release didn't do very well at the local store. In fact, I haven't ever seen one be used in the shop, and I saw two once at a 30 man tournament.
As a result, the shop owner is pretty wary about stocking these items as the Battle Engines are already gathering a decent layer of dust.
As a troll player, I love the look of our Battle Engine but it seriously has no synergy with my caster, so it's a pass for me.
Surtur wrote:I think the problem with battle engines was how very underwhelming they were game wise.
Vertrucio wrote:The battle engines are hit or miss. I've gotten good use out of mine, but honestly they're better played at point values far above the standard 35. At 50 that's the sweet spot. For colossals, they'll probably work better at 35 due to them being part of the battlegroup, counting as a warjack, and having access to focus.
One thing to remember is that the Colossals books also includes the full and final rules for Unbound battles, which are fights at 150 points or more.
It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use.
Honestly, I don't like Unbound not because it doesn't work, but because they don't do enough to speed up the game at 150 points or higher. I think it should be a separate game using the same models, but vastly more streamlined rules instead of just some modifications that make things more balanced at 150, but don't help at all with speed of play.
While these arguments have been used before. I'm buying Colossals for multiple reasons, first, for vanity. Let's face it, big models on the table are a great conversation piece, and I'm a very good painter.
Second, that's $135+tax of my money, but for the cost it's a large chunk of my army.
Third, unlike 40K Apocalypse stuff, I can use it in the base game much like how I use battle engines a lot even in smaller games. It may not be optimal in smaller games, but at least I have the choice of using it.
Fourth, PP have done a lot in the rules to make these things useful, such as the aforementioned aspects that make them immune to disruption, being stationary, etc. They feel like big things and when they hit the table they still do something, but aren't overpowered.
Lastly, it's hinted at abilities should fit well into my Cygnar army.
What I'm looking for from the Colossals is the same thing that I see in the
Battle Engines, and that is balance for its point cost. You really don't
just plop a 9-10 point battle engine and expect it to hum. There has
to be a plan and there has to be a list fitted to it. I call that balanced.
The problem with group think on some of this is that if it's not good
at opening a hole and assassinating a caster all on its own, then it's
often not deemed as useful. But the battle engines all do mean things,
and I'm hoping that the colossals do as well.
I'm excited that PP is trying to tap into the "forgeworld Market."
This is a tough thing for a lot of people to swallow, but it's true: not everybody can have everything they want. In this case, not everybody can afford the same stuff. I know nobody has sympathy for people with large amounts of disposable income, but I'd rather buy one big ticket item than a bunch of smaller stuff.
As for "pricing people out," don't high model count, metal units do that far better? I mean, how many points is a complete trencher or winterguard unit? How many dollars?
It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..
I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...
This game is still Skirmish based, it's far from being a large scale game like Flames of War, Dystopian Wars, Firestorm Armada, or GW's games. Sure the big colossal is coming out to play, but there is nothing that makes this thing an auto include. And like people said, it's probably going to die to a weapon master unit on the charge. The only thing it might have going for it is that it might be able to fire while in melee (similar to Behemoth).
H.B.M.C. wrote:Isn't this a case of 'well they were doing it anyway?'
I know I was playing games of Apocalypse before it was called Apocalypse. I'm sure that groups of players have gathered together their entire WM armies to play big games before. Why not support that with specific releases for those big games?
It made sense for GW to do it, why not PP?
Absolutely! The store I play at just had an unbound game, but they spent a weekend and did a 300 point Khador vs. Menoth game about a year or so ago. So you're absolutely right, just people were playing large games before there were official rules...
Polonius wrote:I'm excited that PP is trying to tap into the "forgeworld Market."
This is a tough thing for a lot of people to swallow, but it's true: not everybody can have everything they want. In this case, not everybody can afford the same stuff. I know nobody has sympathy for people with large amounts of disposable income, but I'd rather buy one big ticket item than a bunch of smaller stuff.
As for "pricing people out," don't high model count, metal units do that far better? I mean, how many points is a complete trencher or winterguard unit? How many dollars?
I agree, I'd rather just buy the whole unit in a box and not worry about the blisters I need to buy with it, but at the same time I feel bad for Cryx players, who have to spend almost 110 dollars on their Bane Thrall unit and UA... not to mention another 50 if they want a unit of Bane Knights...
In the end, those that want the model for in game purposes will still buy the model, regardless of cost, and those that want to collect it because they like the look, or they're completionists and want everything for their faction will still buy this.
I'll probably buy the Trollblood Colossal only, even though I have Cygnar, Khador, and Skorne armies as well...
I think some of the initial charm, appeal, and feel of the game is being diluted/ lost with the inclusion of things lime Collossals and large scale battle rules like Unbound.
The Collossals from a fluff perspective were a nice piece of "lore" that one could talk about, but the Indiction was that they were something from another era.
Bringing them back sort of feels like cop-out/ ret-con of fluff and a money grab.
So are The Orgoth next?
Not to mention that these look too much like fancy high- tech warjacks and not the antiquated behemoths I would have preferred...
Mostly because they're NOT antiquated behemoths. They're brand new designs, and a hell of a lot smaller than the Orgoth War colossals (not to mention have actual cortexes).
Laughing Man wrote:Mostly because they're NOT antiquated behemoths. They're brand new designs, and a hell of a lot smaller than the Orgoth War colossals (not to mention have actual cortexes).
These facts don't make me want them in the game any more then before...
I agree that the price point seems to High in my opinion. I was really hoping to see these come in at the hundred dollar mark. I am not sure what the cost drivers were that made it nessesary to charge so much. that being said, they a sweet models and I will be buying one at least, possibly three (one for each of my army's). Unfortunentally non of this money will be going to my LGS, while I don't mind paying retail for most of my purchases, when I see I can save 20~30 dollars on a single model I will purchase from the cheaper source.
On a side note, these models will probably not be must haves, and I cant see taking them at anything but a 50 point game. That being said they will probably only appeal to a small portion of the community( which could be why they are priced so). I don't expect them to be broken good(good, but not broken good)
It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..
I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...
You read my mind.
Personally, I think I was happiest with WM maybe through Apotheosis, in terms of over-all flavor. Superiority had a ton of Merc releases, which was really nice, as a merc player, but I think that the game was probably best back in the day.
MkII did some good things to the rules, and some theme lists have merits, but other than that, wile collossals look pretty cool, I agree-- they don't fit the scale that I loved. I got in to WM because I wanted an alternative to GW, but now it feels more and more like they're trying to be "GW Jr." ... well, minus the actively pissing off fans (so far...)
The main reason I don't like battle engines and especially not colossals is that it makes the warjacks look small and insignificant. I'm one of those people who endured the years of infantrymachine through mk1 and was so happy with the changes to jacks in mk2 that made them viable again.
I want the game to be about the warcaster and their battlegroup of warjacks.
I do get that the colossals are technically warjacks, but they are not the lights and heavies that have defined what a warjack is for over a decade. And their massive size makes cool models like Ol' Rowdy look tiny and impotent in comparison.
It's becoming clear that they want to transition Warmachine into larger battles where stuff like Colossals and Battle Engines can get more use..
I much preferred WM when it actually was a skirmish game...
You read my mind.
Personally, I think I was happiest with WM maybe through Apotheosis, in terms of over-all flavor. Superiority had a ton of Merc releases, which was really nice, as a merc player, but I think that the game was probably best back in the day.
MkII did some good things to the rules, and some theme lists have merits, but other than that, wile collossals look pretty cool, I agree-- they don't fit the scale that I loved. I got in to WM because I wanted an alternative to GW, but now it feels more and more like they're trying to be "GW Jr." ... well, minus the actively pissing off fans (so far...)
Years ago the whole thing about WM that appealed to me was the small model count. A leader and a handful of robots. As soon as they started adding squads of multiple models I lost interest.
Laughing Man wrote:You do realise units have been in the game since the original Prime, right?
Yes we do.
I was given my first two battle box equivilants by Matt Wilson before original Prime even hit the shelves. I heard about the game, wrote him an email to discuss it (I was an LGS owner then) and he sent me two sets. Pretty cool on his part.
What We are talking about is scale of game and "feel" of play. It is an abstract thing in some ways, but it just doesnt feel the same anymore...
The game used to very much feel like a warcaser/battlegroup and a few assets meeting to duel it out with a rival. It was much more personal and focused. Warjacks the iconic focus, etc.
As the game has expanded in scope and size it has imho lost a portion of what made it so cool to begin with.
I think the collossals throw the scale out of whack as well. As somebody already mentioned, Warjacks used to seem like big hulking badasses. Now they look puny in comparison and some of their charm and uniqueness is lost.
The collossals look like what would happen if you plunked down a 54mm Inquisitor space marine as a new 40K unit... It just looks odd.
Take a look at the new FW chaos daemon engine in the other news thread: it unfortunately has the same effect. Dreadnoughts used to be the "big bad robots" in 40K tabletop (no Titans back in the day), they had a sense of reverence and uniquness as far as walker/robots went.
Now you have Dreadnights and contemptors and this new "gigantor chaos robot" coming along and dilluting the coolness that was once the SM dreadnought....
Laughing Man wrote:You do realise units have been in the game since the original Prime, right?
As CT Gamer points out, Prime was actually released well after the game was available. I played with the quickstart rules for quite a while. It was cool when Cryx and Khador were released.
The first infantry unit available was the Cygnar mechaniks, the first real combat-capable infantry unit was the Men-o-War. It was kind of a big deal when they came out; people didn't know how well infantry would fare with the warjacks. Infantry really dominated MK1 because they were simply better. Occasionally you would see a heavy warjack (I swore by my Slayer), but for the most part it was cheaper and more effective to run infantry. Light warjacks were mostly for toting arc nodes (which is what made Cryx so effective).
However, unlike CT Gamer, I like the direction Warmachine has gone since MK2. There is a better balance (which, I think, is more driven by Hordes than by changes in the WarMachine mechanic) between warjacks and infantry, leading more to a skirmish style game, rather than the battlegroup-style game that you saw in early MK1. Back then the game was so much more one-dimensional than it is today. Infantry added a needed layer of complexity and strategy.
CT GAMER wrote:Take a look at the new FW chaos daemon engine in the other news thread: it unfortunately has the same effect. Dreadnoughts used to be the "big bad robots" in 40K tabletop (no Titans back in the day), they had a sense of reverence and uniquness as far as walker/robots went.
Now you have Dreadnights and contemptors and this new "gigantor chaos robot" coming along and dilluting the coolness that was once the SM dreadnought....
Two systems, same effect...
Titans have been around since second edition, at least, so I'm less concerned with Contemptors,Dreadknights, etc.
Defilers have also been around for nearly a decade, IIRC.
My personal problem with the Collossals is how it steps all over the fluff: Mulg being the biggest troll, Collossals being abandoned b/c of practicality, the first uniques (other than the Deathjack) essentially being unique b/c of the immense resources put in to them, etc. etc.
On the other hand, I've felt that big scary vehicles and monsters were always (since the mid 90's, at least) part of the 40k setting, they've just been getting the spotlight recently. For instance, the LR was never the biggest tank, just arguably the best, as far as I know.
But, yeah, both systems are pushing "bigger is better" hard, and I'm not a huge fan in either case.
Ok, I must have no gaming instinct--as I see WM as the exact opposite of when I played years ago.
When we first tried WM (Again, many years ago)--units dominated the board and Jacks were almost pointless (No Hordes). Jacks have become much more powerful over the years in my eyes--to the point where I don't scoff when I see someone throw down 2-3 heavies. I think they are the closest they've ever been to Jack v. Infantry balance.
You could always account for the uniques being unique because
of a combination of cortex and miniaturized technology. Maybe
the Storm Chamber of the Thunder Head only works for the
Thunderhead or something much larger than the Thunderhead.
Maybe Thorn needs its special personality in order to get the
special generator working.
Something like that.
Besides, they've recently posted that they're okay with changing
the fluff so they can come up with new ideas.
I went ahead and calculated the vertical dimension of the model based on the comparative size of the base, which is exactly 120mm. So, according to the figure, it's roughly 139mm to the tallest point. That translates to 5.47 inches tall.
AgeOfEgos wrote:When we first tried WM (Again, many years ago)--units dominated the board and Jacks were almost pointless (No Hordes). Jacks have become much more powerful over the years in my eyes--to the point where I don't scoff when I see someone throw down 2-3 heavies. I think they are the closest they've ever been to Jack v. Infantry balance.
This is definitely true, however, this was a gaming mechanic issue, not a focus issue: PP didn't know how to balance warjacks when they started, and got them much more balanced in second edition. They've always pushed warjacks (since it's most of what makes their system unique).
But, the emphasis on larger games and larger models is pushing the focus away from small games, which is my complaint and, I assume, others', too.
malfred wrote:What I'm looking for from the Colossals is the same thing that I see in the
Battle Engines, and that is balance for its point cost. You really don't
just plop a 9-10 point battle engine and expect it to hum. There has
to be a plan and there has to be a list fitted to it. I call that balanced.
The problem with group think on some of this is that if it's not good
at opening a hole and assassinating a caster all on its own, then it's
often not deemed as useful. But the battle engines all do mean things,
and I'm hoping that the colossals do as well.
Don't get me wrong, there are some decent battle engines. I'm very jealous of Skorne and Legion's BEs on the Hordes side and the Stormstrider and Gun Carriage on Machine side. Perhaps it's my Menoth side showing through here. There are some solid battle engines, but they still have to draw comparisons to similarly cost units and jacks and jacks get the benefit of a mitigated cost from the warcaster. And sadly the result of the comparisons becomes a rather dull tone. Most battle engines can't compare the the ability to have focus, be faster and more maneuverable, or being able to use terrain.
Laughing Man wrote:You do realise units have been in the game since the original Prime, right?
As CT Gamer points out, Prime was actually released well after the game was available. I played with the quickstart rules for quite a while. It was cool when Cryx and Khador were released.
The first infantry unit available was the Cygnar mechaniks, the first real combat-capable infantry unit was the Men-o-War. It was kind of a big deal when they came out; people didn't know how well infantry would fare with the warjacks. Infantry really dominated MK1 because they were simply better. Occasionally you would see a heavy warjack (I swore by my Slayer), but for the most part it was cheaper and more effective to run infantry. Light warjacks were mostly for toting arc nodes (which is what made Cryx so effective).
However, unlike CT Gamer, I like the direction Warmachine has gone since MK2. There is a better balance (which, I think, is more driven by Hordes than by changes in the WarMachine mechanic) between warjacks and infantry, leading more to a skirmish style game, rather than the battlegroup-style game that you saw in early MK1. Back then the game was so much more one-dimensional than it is today. Infantry added a needed layer of complexity and strategy.
I like the fixes MKII made from a rules/gamplay perspective for the most part. And I don't object to infantry per se.
I think at smaller games you migt have a unit or a few soloes with you, and that felt right. Giant armies of infantry hordes just doesnt do it for me when it comes to what made WM initially apealing.
I also wish PP had pushed for a more story driven/ scenario based style of play rathe rthen the caster kill/ tourney style default, but that is a whole other debate that doesnt belong here, and I was always in the minority on it anyways...
This is all sort of semi- off topic though.
Getting back to the collossals, I think they diminish the status of warjacks as the big full metal beatsticks, and that is a sad thing in my book...
Personally I view colassals as the next evolution of warjacks and an effort to bring big Stompy robots back to being the biggest stompiest things around.
I started the game in mkII and as it was basically all new players with only a few vets leading the sudden surge Warmachine enjoyed at our FLGS we started out with 35pt games, but for the last year 50pt games have been the standard. Nearly every event everywhere is 50pt and anything less is t very common. Nor is anything larger, though 70/75pt two caster games get run every so often, and half or more of those are two players per side. I am not aware of even a single unbound game being played locally, ever.
In short, I think colassals are cool a d have no problems with the current scale of the game.
Aduro wrote:Personally I view colassals as the next evolution of warjacks and an effort to bring big Stompy robots back to being the biggest stompiest things around.
I started the game in mkII and as it was basically all new players with only a few vets leading the sudden surge Warmachine enjoyed at our FLGS we started out with 35pt games, but for the last year 50pt games have been the standard. Nearly every event everywhere is 50pt and anything less is t very common. Nor is anything larger, though 70/75pt two caster games get run every so often, and half or more of those are two players per side. I am not aware of even a single unbound game being played locally, ever.
In short, I think colassals are cool a d have no problems with the current scale of the game.
It's funny cuz in the fluff they were the originals. They got the smaller ones because the big ones kept sinking into the swamp.
Then they built another one. It sank into the swamp. They built a third. It burned down, fell over, and sank into the swamp. BUT THE FOURTH COLOSSAL STOOD.
My only problem with the colassals is the apparent break from old fluff someone else mentioned. Mulg being the biggest troll ever, a walking mountain, except now there are other trolls more than twice his size, a d more than one to boot. Behemoth being this huge investment in resources such that they can't afford to build more, but they can build others that are even larger and make them production line. Ect.
The cost does seem prohibitive, but I've got most of my forces collected and assembled already, so saving up for a little while should be no problem. I'm curious to see what we get for Hordes, since I mainly play as Legion.
These new 120mm based unit types have caused me to re-evaluate what I'm doing with Warmachine. As I've expressed above, I like warjacks being the big stompy robots and don't really want them eclipsed by battle engines and colossals (even if they're damn cool).
As it stands, I encounter a battle engine in about one in four games. If colossals see a similar amount of play, I'm alright with that. Even if up to a solid third of my games have them, I'm alright with that. I just don't want half or a majority of my games to be where the jacks are no longer the big things. If that ends up happening, I'll start unwinding my collection.
So I decided I'd finish my casters' tier 4 lists (needing 4 more solo blisters between them). and stop purchasing for the time being.
As a result of reallocation of hobby money away from PP, I decided to finally get into 15mm sci-fi and ordered some stuff from Ground Zero Games and Critical Mass Games. Khurasan has some neat stuff as well.
Laughing Man wrote:Then they built another one. It sank into the swamp. They built a third. It burned down, fell over, and sank into the swamp. BUT THE FOURTH COLOSSAL STOOD.
Laughing Man wrote:Then they built another one. It sank into the swamp. They built a third. It burned down, fell over, and sank into the swamp. BUT THE FOURTH COLOSSAL STOOD.
Glad to see someone got it.
I thought it was the fifth colossal that was humanity's last, best hope against the Orgoth's darkness?
Laughing Man wrote:Then they built another one. It sank into the swamp. They built a third. It burned down, fell over, and sank into the swamp. BUT THE FOURTH COLOSSAL STOOD.
Glad to see someone got it.
I thought it was the fifth colossal that was humanity's last, best hope against the Orgoth's darkness?
Aduro wrote:My only problem with the colassals is the apparent break from old fluff someone else mentioned. Mulg being the biggest troll ever, a walking mountain, except now there are other trolls more than twice his size, a d more than one to boot. Behemoth being this huge investment in resources such that they can't afford to build more, but they can build others that are even larger and make them production line. Ect.
This post made me wonder, because when I saw the Troll concept art, I jokingly told everyone at my store I was going to use the Troll colossal as Mulg. So I went to my Trollbloods book to look at what they say about Mulg because of these accusations of Mulg being the largest troll ever. They say Mulg is a "walking piece of the mountain." still quite large, but not that original idea I all had of Mulg. And apparently from what I've read on the PP forums, Simon says that the Mountain Kings are being awakened in the Hordes book, so they're not going back and changing the fluff. It's like Pluto (the planet). We have knowledge of this tiny planet on the fringe of our solar system. To our knowledge as humans, it is supposed to be considered a planet. Well fifty years pass and we all find out that there are other bodies beyond Pluto that are slightly larger, slightly smaller, and have a more stable orbit than Pluto, so we downgrade. In Caen, our Trollkin friends believe that Mulg is the biggest and the baddest troll out where, and while fighting the wars, and searching for a stable place to lay down new roots, they stumble across these ancient trolls that probably aren't in the same genetic line as Dire Trolls, thus why we're only just now finding them.
And as for the idea of Behemoth, wasn't he too expensive for what he could do? The Colossals are supposed to be mobile siege engines, something Behemoth is not. So they might be willing to spend a little more money on the development of a different type of weapon, but I do see your point on the idea of changing fluff. As it has been stated, yes the old colossals were huge, and there were not very many of them. We're now faced with a more developed version, an advancing of the storyline. It's not like people in WW1 were saying "hey this first type of tank is the only tank we'll ever need." It may not have been effective in cost or other measures, but once the armies were used to that technology, it gave them the drive to make it better. I don't know, it doesn't seem like they're really changing the fluff. I'm okay with my Troll colossal being bigger than Mulg, as long as the story line backs it up.
frozenwastes wrote:These new 120mm based unit types have caused me to re-evaluate what I'm doing with Warmachine. As I've expressed above, I like warjacks being the big stompy robots and don't really want them eclipsed by battle engines and colossals (even if they're damn cool).
As it stands, I encounter a battle engine in about one in four games. If colossals see a similar amount of play, I'm alright with that. Even if up to a solid third of my games have them, I'm alright with that. I just don't want half or a majority of my games to be where the jacks are no longer the big things. If that ends up happening, I'll start unwinding my collection.
So I decided I'd finish my casters' tier 4 lists (needing 4 more solo blisters between them). and stop purchasing for the time being.
As a result of reallocation of hobby money away from PP, I decided to finally get into 15mm sci-fi and ordered some stuff from Ground Zero Games and Critical Mass Games. Khurasan has some neat stuff as well.
Yeah... I had a similar doubt around the 10th anniversary NQ issue (call me whatever you want, but the intense back patting* and lame-a** writing in the Magnus story pushed me over the edge, in terms of not liking PP's design/creative choices, and I don't think I've bought a single PP product since). *I also found it humorous that, in their section about their awesome publications, editing, and quality control, there was an obvious copy-paste error
My re-evaluation of the game meant trading for Malifaux for me, which has been a blast.
Alfndrate wrote:This post made me wonder, because when I saw the Troll concept art, I jokingly told everyone at my store I was going to use the Troll colossal as Mulg. So I went to my Trollbloods book to look at what they say about Mulg because of these accusations of Mulg being the largest troll ever. They say Mulg is a "walking piece of the mountain." still quite large, but not that original idea I all had of Mulg. And apparently from what I've read on the PP forums, Simon says that the Mountain Kings are being awakened in the Hordes book, so they're not going back and changing the fluff. It's like Pluto (the planet). We have knowledge of this tiny planet on the fringe of our solar system. To our knowledge as humans, it is supposed to be considered a planet. Well fifty years pass and we all find out that there are other bodies beyond Pluto that are slightly larger, slightly smaller, and have a more stable orbit than Pluto, so we downgrade. In Caen, our Trollkin friends believe that Mulg is the biggest and the baddest troll out where, and while fighting the wars, and searching for a stable place to lay down new roots, they stumble across these ancient trolls that probably aren't in the same genetic line as Dire Trolls, thus why we're only just now finding them.
Alf, do you have a link to where you found this info on the PP forums?
Aduro wrote:Mulg being the biggest troll ever, a walking mountain, except now there are other trolls more than twice his size, a d more than one to boot.
They already dropped that ball when they sculpted him as the smallest available Heavy Troll. Adorable little mountain.
Alfndrate wrote:This post made me wonder, because when I saw the Troll concept art, I jokingly told everyone at my store I was going to use the Troll colossal as Mulg. So I went to my Trollbloods book to look at what they say about Mulg because of these accusations of Mulg being the largest troll ever. They say Mulg is a "walking piece of the mountain." still quite large, but not that original idea I all had of Mulg. And apparently from what I've read on the PP forums, Simon says that the Mountain Kings are being awakened in the Hordes book, so they're not going back and changing the fluff. It's like Pluto (the planet). We have knowledge of this tiny planet on the fringe of our solar system. To our knowledge as humans, it is supposed to be considered a planet. Well fifty years pass and we all find out that there are other bodies beyond Pluto that are slightly larger, slightly smaller, and have a more stable orbit than Pluto, so we downgrade. In Caen, our Trollkin friends believe that Mulg is the biggest and the baddest troll out where, and while fighting the wars, and searching for a stable place to lay down new roots, they stumble across these ancient trolls that probably aren't in the same genetic line as Dire Trolls, thus why we're only just now finding them.
Alf, do you have a link to where you found this info on the PP forums?
Can't comment on the info on the PP forums, RiTides, but I can on Mulg being the largest Troll ever. Current fluff (FoH: Trollbloods) has this to say regarding his reputation:
Dire trolls draw upon their regenerative capabilities to achieve extraordinary longevity. Many live for centuries, and they become increasingly dangerous and tenacious with age. Reputedly the most ancient and ferocious dire troll ever to walk Caen, Mulg is the paragon of that reputation; indeed, he is old enough to have seen the Orgoth with his own eyes.
There isn't any size reference given in his unit entry which backs up the "largest Troll ever" reputation. I even went back to check Metamorphosis, to see if the entry there mentioned it - but it has the exact same text.
Aduro wrote:Mulg being the biggest troll ever, a walking mountain, except now there are other trolls more than twice his size, a d more than one to boot.
They already dropped that ball when they sculpted him as the smallest available Heavy Troll. Adorable little mountain.
Yeah, I know! That's why it doesn't bother me if there's a bigger model... he's pretty puny (look at his legs compared to any other Dire Troll's- it's like he's in a different scale, and should probably be "Colossal/Gargantuan-sized" himself if he were scaled correctly).
Dysartes- Thanks! I did check the Troll PP forum, and there was some of Alfndrate's info, but I didn't find the main source.
And is the name "King of the Mountain" or "Mountain Kings"?
Aduro mentioned earlier in this thread that the names were Mountain King, Woldwraith (something like that), Mammoth, and Legion's name which escapes me....
So I checked around on the internet, a week or so ago PP's twitter sent out this link:
If you click the link and look at the board they're building for Adepticon (so RiTides, you better get me some pretty pictures). On the link provided are several work in progress shots of the small scale. Which I will provide here:
This mockup clearly states what models will be on the board. Granted this is on the small scale, but we're treated to the names of "Gun Carriage", "War Wagon", and "Conquest" all names we know to be true of current/previewed models (the Colossals video said the name of the Khador Conquest I believe/the info on that name was leaked at TempleCon).
So we're left with Mountain King (and the amusing image of a stick figure smashing something with his butt over the circle that was previously labeled "Mountain King"
In this thread, the forum goers are treated to the following quotes:
PPS_Will (Will Hungerford I believe, I don't regularly lurk on those forums) wrote:
Originally Posted by DarkLegacy wrote: I'm fairly certain it is right because that's Privateer writing that blog post, not Adepticon! I still can't wait to see it.
As the author of said piece, I will go out on a limb and say it is correct!
This means that the Troll model will be completed (or is completed) for Adepticon, so even if we don't know what it looks like beforehand, we will during Adepticon. Simon jumps in with a bit about the story a few posts down
PPS_Simon wrote:
Originally Posted by MinionOfCthulhu wrote: A troll that big is kinda weird though. I thought all the fluff around Mulg was that he was the biggest troll of them all. Whoops nevermind we found some five times as tall as him.
They didn't just find them, the events surrounding the awakening of the Mountain Kings will be explained in the next HORDES book.
So PP staff have confirmed that the Troll's Colossal will be awakened by the events of their book.
Sorry it took so long for me to respond, my night class got in the way.
Hey, if you're gonna post solid info and quotes like that, you can take as long as you want. The PP forums are a pita the try a d follow and get good facts from.
I feel rather sorry for the Trenchers and Winter Guard caught between those two - and, thanks to those crates, unless they have reach they won't be entering HTH any time soon...
I'd expect it to be £90 
Yesterday's insider says it can use its superstructure system to deploy up to 3 of them. Silly Swans...
(trollbloods- whatever the Hordes Colossals end up being called)
) I picked up, and hoping they're viable. It is nice not to have to get permission to use these crazy models, though (and, hopefully, still have them not be game-breaking).
