Mindstrike missiles affect psykers, Grey knight vehicles are treated as psykers due to psychic pilot so it seems getting hit with a mindstrike missile would cause an automatic glancing hit. However Crucible of Malediction, the DE wargear does not affect grey knight vehicles, so the question rises. Do Grey knight vehicles have to take a glancing hit from the perils induced by a mind strike missile?

No, they are only psykers for the purposes listed in the codex. They can never be psykers during your shooting phase.

As above, they are only psykers when they cast Fortitude(or when a Dreadnought activates his Doomfist)

As above.

If you add a "comma" to the sentence, then they would indeed be psykers all the time. The lack of the comma denotes that it is only a psyker for the purpose of making psychic checks and psychic hoods - nothing else.

I just looked this up... 'they are psykers and count as ld 10 when making psychic checks'

How does the lack of a comma change them from being psykers?

DevianID wrote:I just looked this up... 'they are psykers and count as ld 10 when making psychic checks'

How does the lack of a comma change them from being psykers?

That's not the quote. The rules actually say:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'


So that technically reads that they are only psykers and Leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods. If there was a comma after the word 'psyker' in that sentence then they would always be treated as psykers and only Ld10 for psychic tests & hoods.

But without that comma it means they only count as being psykers for those two things...although one could definitely argue that if you read the rule that way they are unable to use a psychic power as only psykers are able to use psychic powers and they aren't a psyker except in those two specific cases.


I did bring that point up when this was being voted on for the INAT, but the overwhelming sentiment was that they weren't supposed to count as pyskers in other circumstances. Personally I think that opens up a whole lot of crazy loopholes in the rules, but whatever...

Remembering of course that in British (and Australian) English the comma after and is always optional and does on occasion lead to ambiguities such as this.

I don't really follow along with being a psyker in one instance and not being a psyker in another you either are, or you aren't you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Actually grammactically you can separate these into two separate parts.

The and combines two separate similar ideas but does not fully combine them. The vehicle is a psyker. The vehicle has leadership 10 for psychic tests.

The sentance is constructed as a list of things that apply together, they cannot be seperated.

As this is a legal document(its a set of rules) you cannot add anything beyond what is contained in the sentance.


The Parantheses containing "Mastery Level 1" don't constitute a sentance break.

I will also apply Occums Razor here. The "Psykers only for psychic test purposes" is the simplest interperation and causes the fewest problems. Otherwise we have the Crucible of Maladiction become so unbelievably overpowered.


As anecdotal evidence we also have the BA Furioso Dreadnought whose rules quite clearly differ on this, saying that it is a Ld10 psyker for ALL purposes not just Psychic Tests. Psychic Pilot is clearly worded differently, we must assume it was on purpose.

Magpie wrote:Remembering of course that in British (and Australian) English the comma after and is always optional and does on occasion lead to ambiguities such as this.

I don't really follow along with being a psyker in one instance and not being a psyker in another you either are, or you aren't you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Its to stop you parking 9 razorbacks next to an assassin, each with a psyker inside, to make you an assault 20 ap2 weapon

The entire GK book was written to explicitly reduce the "number" of psykers present, while allowing GK units to function how people want them to. BoP tells you this. Psykers special rules tells you this. Psychic Pilot tells you this. Why did they bother writing the rules so explicitly to restrict the "psyker"-ness of a vehicle, when they could have simply written "psyker (mastery level 1), counts as ld 10"?

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Magpie wrote:Remembering of course that in British (and Australian) English the comma after and is always optional and does on occasion lead to ambiguities such as this.

I don't really follow along with being a psyker in one instance and not being a psyker in another you either are, or you aren't you can't have your cake and eat it too.

Its to stop you parking 9 razorbacks next to an assassin, each with a psyker inside, to make you an assault 20 ap2 weapon

The entire GK book was written to explicitly reduce the "number" of psykers present, while allowing GK units to function how people want them to. BoP tells you this. Psykers special rules tells you this. Psychic Pilot tells you this. Why did they bother writing the rules so explicitly to restrict the "psyker"-ness of a vehicle, when they could have simply written "psyker (mastery level 1), counts as ld 10"?

That's viewing it from the positive side. I think Mat Ward rather made sure that anti-psyker abilities would have limited or no effect on Grey Knights. So they get all the benefits from being psykers with little of the disadvantages.

It makes sense in the case of vehicles though, because vehicles were never meant to be psykers in the first place.

Yeah, it's be worse for them if every Paladin was a Psyker.
9 hammer hands and a NFW activation would be crappy.

wat

Grey Templar wrote:The sentance is constructed as a list of things that apply together, they cannot be seperated.

As this is a legal document(its a set of rules) you cannot add anything beyond what is contained in the sentance.


The Parantheses containing "Mastery Level 1" don't constitute a sentance break.

I will also apply Occums Razor here. The "Psykers only for psychic test purposes" is the simplest interperation and causes the fewest problems. Otherwise we have the Crucible of Maladiction become so unbelievably overpowered.


As anecdotal evidence we also have the BA Furioso Dreadnought whose rules quite clearly differ on this, saying that it is a Ld10 psyker for ALL purposes not just Psychic Tests. Psychic Pilot is clearly worded differently, we must assume it was on purpose.

I disagree. The simplest form is that the vehicle is a psyker. As you add conditions onto it you complicate the matter. The issue with a. Vehicle being a psyker requires you to specify a leadership value for the cases when the psyker requires a leadership value which vehicles do not possess naturally. Thus a vehicle does not gain a leadership value all the time but only when required for being a psyker.

The rest of the time a psyker does not need the leadership value because it is a vehicle. This clarifies the additional requirements of being a psyker rather than limiting when a vwhicle is indicated as a psyker.

The parenthesis do not indicate the sentence break - the and does.

And is also used to denote the last item in a list, which is what the case with this sentance is.

I can actually agree that both positions are valid.

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

We have a vehicle.
This vehicle has a special rule called psychic pilot.
This vehicle is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).
This vehicle is treated as being leadership 10 for the purpose of Psychic Tests
This vehicle is treated as being leadership 10 for the purpose of psychic hoods.

The argument centers around the predicate "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods". Does this apply to the second part of the sentence or all of the sentence?

Psykers for the purpose of psychic tests and psychic hoods is not the simplest form. You basically create something that is one thing half the time and something else other times rather than always being the same thing.

Vehicles generally do not have leadership. "For the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" limits having a leadership value rather than being a psyker.

If the rule was suppose to limit being a pysker only for psychic tests and psychic hoods then the rule would have the limitation after psyker rather than after the leadership value as seen below:

A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

Lets look at it this way.

Here is a similerly constructed sentance.


I am 21 and a US citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

Does Legal and Practical Purposes apply to both parts? I think it most certaintly does.

Yup. To break it down into independent parts I think you need some separating punctuation.

Here is another similar sentence:

I am tired and a us citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

The second part does not make any sense when combined with the first part. It can be deconstructed either way though because it is ambiguous sentence structure.

Unfortunately the codex writing can be read both ways with none of them being wrong so I have to say that until it get's a Faq you'll just need to talk it with your opponent

rogueeyes wrote:Here is another similar sentence:

I am tired and a us citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

The second part does not make any sense when combined with the first part. It can be deconstructed either way though because it is ambiguous sentence structure.

Unfortunantly it doesn't make sense, however the GK codex sentance does make sense when put together.

Grey Templar wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:Here is another similar sentence:

I am tired and a us citizen for all legal and practical purposes.

The second part does not make any sense when combined with the first part. It can be deconstructed either way though because it is ambiguous sentence structure.

Unfortunantly it doesn't make sense, however the GK codex sentance does make sense when put together.

As it also makes sense read the other way, and there is no correct way of interpreting it.

It only makes sense the other way if you add a comma in.

There isnt a comma, so it cannot be read the other way.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It only makes sense the other way if you add a comma in.

There isnt a comma, so it cannot be read the other way.

The "and" can also act as a introduction of another condition to the rules, eg.

It counts as a Psyker blablabla AND it's Ld is "X" for "Y" circumstances.

So it could well mean that it is always a psyker but it only has LD for "Y" circumstances, so it does make sense, is it RAI? I don't have a clue but...I'm not the author..

Even if the grammar doesn't convince you, the rules work a lot better and you avoid opening a big can of worms if you play that it's only a psyker for the specified purposes. That way you avoid having the Culexus with a jillion shots, and you avoid having to figure out how to handle every piece of psychic and anti-psychic wargear in the game in respect to GK vehicles.

Mannahnin wrote:Even if the grammar doesn't convince you, the rules work a lot better and you avoid opening a big can of worms if you play that it's only a psyker for the specified purposes. That way you avoid having the Culexus with a jillion shots, and you avoid having to figure out how to handle every piece of psychic and anti-psychic wargear in the game in respect to GK vehicles.

I've agreed with that all the way I just made it clear that the rule is loosely written, I would have said: "For the purpose of "X" and "Y" it is treated as a psyker (Mastery Level 1) and LD 10 for tests

Even if the grammar doesn't convince you, the rules work a lot better and you avoid opening a big can of worms if you play that it's only a psyker for the specified purposes

Lets be honest here, there is zero Worms, and if there is a Can it has a resealable plastic lid--its not even child locked.

If my vehicle is a psyker, what issues would we possibly have? Mind strike missiles cause glances, big deal--we already know how a glance interacts with a vehicle. The crucible of malediction may kill a tank or two, maybe as much as 9 if you really go out of your way to make a circle around the CoM and fail a bunch of LD checks. As we all know, removing a vehicle from the table is not such a hard thing to do, we do it every time we explode one. Draigo would be s10--ask possessed vehicles if this causes an unresolvable situation that breaks the game.

As for the Culexus assassian, if you really want to get a ton of shots you already can. I have played versus grey knights quite a bit, and the Culexus with 20 shots if and only if you center your entire army around it is a laughable novelty. Strike squads get 20 s5 shots already, for less than the cost of using your entire armies transport capacity in one place, and you dont even see strikes in that config often despite the total entry cost being 220 as opposed to 500 the proposed culexus with rhino spam would be.

Plus, if you follow the logic that vehicles can not be psykers because a single piece of anti psyker wargear would then be useful--the crucible, that would mean that warp quake is clearly being played wrong because it can table a daemon army without even trying. Face it, some things in the game are unbelievably good at killing niche unit types like daemons, deep strikers, or psykers.

So yeah, suspected balance issues with a vehicle that is a psyker is not a valid defense of this rule.

Really the grammar is what matters. The proposed reading of the sentence "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods" makes no sense. Counting as a psyker does nothing for psychic hoods, psychic hoods work on models (as opposed to psykers) that use a power.

In addition, as pointed out, this reading of the rule does not make the vehicle a psyker for the purpose of psychic powers, only psychic tests. "A psyker can use one psychic power per turn." According to the reading proposed above, the vehicle would only be defined as a psyker for psychic tests--so you cant use your powers.

Thus, if you read it such that the vehicle is a psyker, then it is a psyker all the time and its powers work.

If you try and use the grammar to claim that it is NOT a psyker all the time, then the same grammar structure optionally chosen to be used also prevents the vehicle from using a psychic power.

Obviously, we must use the grammar that allows the vehicle to use its power right? We are not advocating that Fortitude can not and should not ever be allowed to be cast due to differing grammatical readings of the rules sentence are we?

A psychic test is how you use a psychic power.

It is not a psyker at all times - it is a psyker only for very limited reasons.

DevianID wrote: The crucible of malediction may kill a tank or two, maybe as much as 9 if you really go out of your way to make a circle around the CoM and fail a bunch of LD checks.

Except that if you read the rule that the Vehicle is a Psyker at all times, but only has Leadership 10 for Psychihc Tests and Psychic Hoods, it wouldn't have any Leadership value to take the Crucible of Malediction test with. As models called to make a statistics test, but without the actual statistic to test on automatically fail the test, the CoM would auto-remove any GK vehicle within range.

How is a cheap piece of wargear removing any vehicles (and any units transported by them) without any kind of save that not a can of worms?

Just because there is a piece of wargear in a different book somewhere that makes it possible to remove a model from the board does not influence how a rule should be read.

Being a psyker does not require you to have a leadership value. A psychic test does require you to have a leadership value as does a psychic hood. There is a requirment of a leadership value that is clarified by stating that the vehicle is lesdership 10 for psychic tests ans pyshic hoods. Nothing precludes a vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

If I state my rhino is a psyker without stating anything else I have no problem. If I state my rhino is using a psychic I am required to make a psychic test that is a leadership test. Now I am required to have a leadership value. Luckily the rule takes this into account and gives me a leadership 10 value for psychic powers and psychic hoods which I need a value for otherwise they would not be useable.

rogueeyes wrote:<Snip>Nothing precludes a vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

The Psychic pilot rule precludes the vehicle from being a Psyker at all times.

There is no punctuation separating the two clauses of that one sentence.

So the vehicle is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10

But only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

To the OP no where under the rulebook does it say how POTW affect vehicles, if a glance or pen, so I would say if its a psy or not potw do not affect vehicles

DK wrote:To the OP no where under the rulebook does it say how POTW affect vehicles, if a glance or pen, so I would say if its a psy or not potw do not affect vehicles

Actually there is a mechanic for Psyker vehicles suffering from perils, check the GK codex P.21 under Psychic Pilot rule.

Then thats the answer, not an interpretation, Its not saying potw under a psy test, it is its own sentence so being hit by a msm it takes a glancing hit.

No, wrong. The PP rule means it is only a psyker for two instances. Meaning when you hit it with a MSM it is not a psyker, and so doesnt take a perils

If it was a psy only for the time it takes the test, it would say "psy only for psy test reasons and is not at anyother time" same thing if you charge a dreadnought with psyk out nads. it is a psy with a force dread hammer. how do you make that out?

DeathReaper wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:<Snip>Nothing precludes a vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

The Psychic pilot rule precludes the vehicle from being a Psyker at all times.

There is no punctuation separating the two clauses of that one sentence.

So the vehicle is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10

But only for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Which is not answering the argument I stated. There is no requirement for a vehicle to have a leadership. There is no reason for a psyker to have a leadership value. I can say this tree is a psyker. The tree does not have a leadership value or any stats for that matter. In order to prevent the ruoes from breaking I must state that for a psychic test this tree is ld 10. I must state that a psychic hood pupose it is leadership 10.

You are simply applying a predicate of a sentence to a combined sentence and stating that the predicate applies to the entire combined sentence. I can do that with any type of sentence and make a logical mistake because it disregards logical and is done blindly.

Taking the parts and expanding them in reverse order states that this is required for this but is not required for this. Aka

The vehicle can be a psyker without any additional conditions but it requires a leadership value in order to cast psychic powers and use psychic hoods. Thus we get the end clause with psychic powers and psychic hoods.

The gk book is only saying what the Ld is for the vehicle is, nothing in the brb says that you have to have a Ld value to be a psyker. So in turn the gk book is only saying what the Ld value is, the vehicle has a psyker power and there for is psychic.

rogueeyes wrote:Which is not answering the argument I stated. There is no requirement for a vehicle to have a leadership. There is no reason for a psyker to have a leadership value. I can say this tree is a psyker. The tree does not have a leadership value or any stats for that matter. In order to prevent the ruoes from breaking I must state that for a psychic test this tree is ld 10. I must state that a psychic hood pupose it is leadership 10.

You are simply applying a predicate of a sentence to a combined sentence and stating that the predicate applies to the entire combined sentence. I can do that with any type of sentence and make a logical mistake because it disregards logical and is done blindly.

Taking the parts and expanding them in reverse order states that this is required for this but is not required for this. Aka

The vehicle can be a psyker without any additional conditions but it requires a leadership value in order to cast psychic powers and use psychic hoods. Thus we get the end clause with psychic powers and psychic hoods.

But that is not how the sentence is read,because there is no punctuation separating that sentence into two parts, so it is all one sentence, and everything applies. So it is only a psyker and LD10 for the purposes of...

At no other time is it a psyker or LD 10.

DeathReaper wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:Which is not answering the argument I stated. There is no requirement for a vehicle to have a leadership. There is no reason for a psyker to have a leadership value. I can say this tree is a psyker. The tree does not have a leadership value or any stats for that matter. In order to prevent the ruoes from breaking I must state that for a psychic test this tree is ld 10. I must state that a psychic hood pupose it is leadership 10.

You are simply applying a predicate of a sentence to a combined sentence and stating that the predicate applies to the entire combined sentence. I can do that with any type of sentence and make a logical mistake because it disregards logical and is done blindly.

Taking the parts and expanding them in reverse order states that this is required for this but is not required for this. Aka

The vehicle can be a psyker without any additional conditions but it requires a leadership value in order to cast psychic powers and use psychic hoods. Thus we get the end clause with psychic powers and psychic hoods.

But that is not how the sentence is read,because there is no punctuation separating that sentence into two parts, so it is all one sentence, and everything applies. So it is only a psyker and LD10 for the purposes of...

At no other time is it a psyker or LD 10.

It doesn't necessarily have to be separated as "and" can act as a sentence separator so it could well be that instead of writing: "The vehicle is a psyker (Mastery Level 1). It has Ld 10 for the purposes of.." the writer didn't like the sentence and substituted the "." with "and", as it is a perfectly reasonable sentence structure, without implying that the clause affects both statements.

That would be true if there were a comma there.

Nos said it best:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you add a "comma" to the sentence, then they would indeed be psykers all the time. The lack of the comma denotes that it is only a psyker for the purpose of making psychic checks and psychic hoods - nothing else.

DeathReaper wrote:That would be true if there were a comma there.

Nos said it best:

nosferatu1001 wrote:If you add a "comma" to the sentence, then they would indeed be psykers all the time. The lack of the comma denotes that it is only a psyker for the purpose of making psychic checks and psychic hoods - nothing else.

I'l just let it pass on this one, but If I were to write the Codex I would have put the "For the purpose..." first, that way it would have been crystal clear, It would be nice to get an errata though, just to avoid any possible confussion.

DK - permissive ruleset; it tells you when it IS a psyker, meaning you have no permission to treat it as a psyker at any other time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:DK - permissive ruleset; it tells you when it IS a psyker, meaning you have no permission to treat it as a psyker at any other time.

Have you actually read the thread? The "issue" was that the wording is a bit vague and it could imply that the LD10 is the thing that is only present at certain times, anyway there is a post a bit above mine where that is explained in much more detail

Given I've posted since the start, YES I have read the thread. DK was stating it would need to say that it was a psyker for X "and at no other time", when the point is that it already tells you when it is a psyker, it doesnt need to tell you when it isnt one, due to the nature of the game.
It is only vague wording if you mentally insert commas into it. If you dont mentally insert commas in, the wording is just fine.

At no point in the sentence are you given permission to separate the first part. It says, you are 'this' and 'this' for the purposes of 'this' and 'this'. Are you saying that the end of the sentence isn't clear either? You are Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests. Also, on a completely unrelated topic, Psychic hoods! Aren't those great?
If the purpose was to separate being a psyker from the rest of the sentence, a period would've worked fine. Or they would've given it the psyker special rule under the vehicles special rules.

I'm not sure how a comma would change anything there. If the sentence said "a vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker, a battle monkey, and ld 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" it would not be a battle monkey unless it was performing a psychic test or comparing ld for a psychic hood. It is defining a status and the conditions for that status.

Dok wrote:At no point in the sentence are you given permission to separate the first part. It says, you are 'this' and 'this' for the purposes of 'this' and 'this'. Are you saying that the end of the sentence isn't clear either? You are Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests. Also, on a completely unrelated topic, Psychic hoods! Aren't those great?
If the purpose was to separate being a psyker from the rest of the sentence, a period would've worked fine. Or they would've given it the psyker special rule under the vehicles special rules.

I'm not sure how a comma would change anything there. If the sentence said "a vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker, a battle monkey, and ld 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" it would not be a battle monkey unless it was performing a psychic test or comparing ld for a psychic hood. It is defining a status and the conditions for that status.

But if it said: "It is treated as being a psyker, and LD10 for X and NMSH..." that would mean it always is a psyker but only has Ld 10 for X and NMSH

if with "and" they are using this definition: "used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly" It indeed means that they are only ever psykers for "X" and "Y" but if it means: "used to connect two clauses, the second of which refers to something that results from the first", it Would mean it IS a psyker and resulting from that it has Ld 10 for "X" and "Y".

I just want to say that, unlike the Codex Astartes, there is room for doubt

If you treat the psychic pilot as a psyker for only psychic tests and psychic hoods I purpose this argument:

Psychic pilot allows a dreadnought to be a psyker for psychic tests and psychic hoods.
Force weapons state that they are used by trained psykers.
A force weapon requires the user to be a psyker.
A dreadnought is not considered a psyker for purposes of a force weapon.
A dreadnought therefore cannot use its doom fists which are nemesis force weapons which are force weapons.

You see this according to your argument works because by raw the dreadnought is only a psyker for psychic powers and psychic hoods. A force weapon confers upon a pysker an additional psychic power. The dreadnought is not able to gain this psychic power because it is not a psyker for force weapons only the psychic powers from force weapons which cannot be granted unless they are a psyker for the purposes of a force weapon.

So basically you can treat it as a psyker only for psychic powers and psychic hoods but you can never use a force weapon.

jgehunter wrote:

Dok wrote:At no point in the sentence are you given permission to separate the first part. It says, you are 'this' and 'this' for the purposes of 'this' and 'this'. Are you saying that the end of the sentence isn't clear either? You are Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests. Also, on a completely unrelated topic, Psychic hoods! Aren't those great?
If the purpose was to separate being a psyker from the rest of the sentence, a period would've worked fine. Or they would've given it the psyker special rule under the vehicles special rules.

I'm not sure how a comma would change anything there. If the sentence said "a vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker, a battle monkey, and ld 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" it would not be a battle monkey unless it was performing a psychic test or comparing ld for a psychic hood. It is defining a status and the conditions for that status.

But if it said: "It is treated as being a psyker, and LD10 for X and NMSH..." that would mean it always is a psyker but only has Ld 10 for X and NMSH

if with "and" they are using this definition: "used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly" It indeed means that they are only ever psykers for "X" and "Y" but if it means: "used to connect two clauses, the second of which refers to something that results from the first", it Would mean it IS a psyker and resulting from that it has Ld 10 for "X" and "Y".

I just want to say that, unlike the Codex Astartes, there is room for doubt

Hmmm, somehow you keep adding that little guy to the sentance.

rogueeyes wrote:A dreadnought is not considered a psyker for purposes of a force weapon.

It is if you read the Psychic Pilot rule on P.21 of the GK codex.

Since activating a force weapon requires a psychic test.

If you don't activate the instagib ability it is still a force weapon, but that does not matter as all unactivated force weapons do is ignore armor saves, which the doomfist, being a DCCW, does anyway on merit of it being a DCCW.

I think the gk book would say "this is the only time it is a psyker and is not affected by weapons that affect psykers" if thats whats intended, even for the Brits thats a broad way of altering a sentence that could be said outload and heard both ways.

This is GW, they can mess up the simplest things. To say "If they meant for that they would have said so" is extremely naive. Even their FAQs lack clarity most of the time.

The gk book does have lots of issues such as what happens to Coteaz if he's in a psyker squad that perils? Is Coteaz still liable since he's stilla a psyker but not a psker henchman?

under the bhos rule it says the leader taking the test, it dosent say you can use anyone else so no coteaz would not be affected.

Grey Templar wrote:

jgehunter wrote:

Dok wrote:At no point in the sentence are you given permission to separate the first part. It says, you are 'this' and 'this' for the purposes of 'this' and 'this'. Are you saying that the end of the sentence isn't clear either? You are Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests. Also, on a completely unrelated topic, Psychic hoods! Aren't those great?
If the purpose was to separate being a psyker from the rest of the sentence, a period would've worked fine. Or they would've given it the psyker special rule under the vehicles special rules.

I'm not sure how a comma would change anything there. If the sentence said "a vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker, a battle monkey, and ld 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" it would not be a battle monkey unless it was performing a psychic test or comparing ld for a psychic hood. It is defining a status and the conditions for that status.

But if it said: "It is treated as being a psyker, and LD10 for X and NMSH..." that would mean it always is a psyker but only has Ld 10 for X and NMSH

if with "and" they are using this definition: "used to connect words of the same part of speech, clauses, or sentences, that are to be taken jointly" It indeed means that they are only ever psykers for "X" and "Y" but if it means: "used to connect two clauses, the second of which refers to something that results from the first", it Would mean it IS a psyker and resulting from that it has Ld 10 for "X" and "Y".

I just want to say that, unlike the Codex Astartes, there is room for doubt

Hmmm, somehow you keep adding that little guy to the sentance.

If "and" had this meaning "used to connect two clauses, the second of which refers to something that results from the first", there would be no need for a comma.

Oh, And I was responding to DoK that said a comma wouldn't affect anything

DeathReaper wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:A dreadnought is not considered a psyker for purposes of a force weapon.

It is if you read the Psychic Pilot rule on P.21 of the GK codex.

Since activating a force weapon requires a psychic test.

If you don't activate the instagib ability it is still a force weapon, but that does not matter as all unactivated force weapons do is ignore armor saves, which the doomfist, being a DCCW, does anyway on merit of it being a DCCW.

If you read the force weapons rule in the rulebook you are required to be a psyker in order to get this extra power. If you are not a psyker for the purpose of a force weapon then you do not have this power thus can never activate a force weapon.

Plus you have the entire point of a DCCW wrong. A DCCW ignores armor saves - it does not cause instant death. It does if the S is double the T of the target but not on T6 and higher models. My argument even stated that you would be able to cast the psychic power to activate the force weapon f you were considered to be psyker for the purpose of the force weapon which confers upon you the psychc power to activate a force weapon.

My argument again:
You must be a psyker in order to be granted a psychic power from a force weapon.
Psychic pilot does not grant you the ability to be a psyker for the purposes of a force weapon.
Thus you do not have the psychic power to cast to activate the force weapon.
Thus you can never use your force weapon.

Now if you look at my original argument that you are always a psyker and that you are leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods then this argument allows you to have the power to activate your force weapon. Because of a logical error and ambiguous grammar you can attribute the predicate of the sentence to all of the combined sentence. The sentence can be broken into multiple parts:

A Vehicle with this special rule
- This clarifies that it is only attributable to vehicles so if any other model has this rule it doesn't get any benefit from it.
is treated as a psyker (Mastery level 1)
- this states that the model is treated as a psyker
and Leadership 10
- this is giving a leadership value to the model
for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods
-This clarifies when the model has the leadership 10 value.

When creating an argument you must be able to create the argument forwards and backwards and logically be able to gain the same conclusion. The issue is that the clause for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is being attributed to the entire sentence before rather than just the individual subject that come before.

My argument against being able to use force weapons syncs up with the psychic pilot rule and forces dreadnoughts not to use force weapons because they are not considered psykers for the purpose of force weapons precluding them from having the psychic power to cast.

rogueeyes wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:A dreadnought is not considered a psyker for purposes of a force weapon.

It is if you read the Psychic Pilot rule on P.21 of the GK codex.

Since activating a force weapon requires a psychic test.

If you don't activate the instagib ability it is still a force weapon, but that does not matter as all unactivated force weapons do is ignore armor saves, which the doomfist, being a DCCW, does anyway on merit of it being a DCCW.

If you read the force weapons rule in the rulebook you are required to be a psyker in order to get this extra power. If you are not a psyker for the purpose of a force weapon then you do not have this power thus can never activate a force weapon.

Plus you have the entire point of a DCCW wrong. A DCCW ignores armor saves - it does not cause instant death. It does if the S is double the T of the target but not on T6 and higher models. My argument even stated that you would be able to cast the psychic power to activate the force weapon f you were considered to be psyker for the purpose of the force weapon which confers upon you the psychc power to activate a force weapon.

My argument again:
You must be a psyker in order to be granted a psychic power from a force weapon.
Psychic pilot does not grant you the ability to be a psyker for the purposes of a force weapon.
Thus you do not have the psychic power to cast to activate the force weapon.
Thus you can never use your force weapon.

Now if you look at my original argument that you are always a psyker and that you are leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods then this argument allows you to have the power to activate your force weapon. Because of a logical error and ambiguous grammar you can attribute the predicate of the sentence to all of the combined sentence. The sentence can be broken into multiple parts:

A Vehicle with this special rule
- This clarifies that it is only attributable to vehicles so if any other model has this rule it doesn't get any benefit from it.
is treated as a psyker (Mastery level 1)
- this states that the model is treated as a psyker
and Leadership 10
- this is giving a leadership value to the model
for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods
-This clarifies when the model has the leadership 10 value.

When creating an argument you must be able to create the argument forwards and backwards and logically be able to gain the same conclusion. The issue is that the clause for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is being attributed to the entire sentence before rather than just the individual subject that come before.

My argument against being able to use force weapons syncs up with the psychic pilot rule and forces dreadnoughts not to use force weapons because they are not considered psykers for the purpose of force weapons precluding them from having the psychic power to cast.

Doesn't all that then support the notion that a Psychic Pilot is a psyker, why would the Dreadnaught be equipped with a Nemisis Doomfist if it could never activate it?
The only thing the dread has to tangibly do to activate the weapon is take a Psychic Test and we have a rules set that allows us to do so.

And also, with nos's reading you are not a psyker for determining if you can use a power. Only for tests, which dont matter because before you test for a psychic power you must first be a psyker to use the power. Kind of like the force weapon issue.

And again, this is due to reading the sentence with differing definations for 'and' that either makes the vehicle a psyker or does not let the vehicle use psychic powers.

DevianID wrote:And also, with nos's reading you are not a psyker for determining if you can use a power. Only for tests, which dont matter because before you test for a psychic power you must first be a psyker to use the power. Kind of like the force weapon issue.

False. Psykers use powers, but not everything that uses powers must be a Psyker.

rigeld2 wrote:

DevianID wrote:And also, with nos's reading you are not a psyker for determining if you can use a power. Only for tests, which dont matter because before you test for a psychic power you must first be a psyker to use the power. Kind of like the force weapon issue.

False. Psykers use powers, but not everything that uses powers must be a Psyker.

wrong, psykers use psychic powers, everything that uses psychic powers are psykers.

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DevianID wrote:And also, with nos's reading you are not a psyker for determining if you can use a power. Only for tests, which dont matter because before you test for a psychic power you must first be a psyker to use the power. Kind of like the force weapon issue.

False. Psykers use powers, but not everything that uses powers must be a Psyker.

wrong, psykers use psychic powers, everything that uses psychic powers are psykers.

Rules quote please.
(protip: you're wrong)

Pg 50 brb, under force weapons it says "used by trained psykers " that means the dreadnought is a psyker, so is the rinho

DK wrote:Pg 50 brb, under force weapons it says "used by trained psykers " that means the dreadnought is a psyker, so is the rinho

a) that has nothing to do with your assertion that everyone using a power is a psyker
b) that sentence is fluff and has nothing to do with actual rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Pg 50 brb, under force weapons it says "used by trained psykers " that means the dreadnought is a psyker, so is the rinho

a) that has nothing to do with your assertion that everyone using a power is a psyker
b) that sentence is fluff and has nothing to do with actual rules.

wow, can you get my quote right? do you read the txt form of english? I said all that use psychic powers are psychic stop twisting words...maybe thats why you dont understand the rules right, you twist words around.

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Pg 50 brb, under force weapons it says "used by trained psykers " that means the dreadnought is a psyker, so is the rinho

a) that has nothing to do with your assertion that everyone using a power is a psyker
b) that sentence is fluff and has nothing to do with actual rules.

wow, can you get my quote right? do you read the txt form of english? I said all that use psychic powers are psychic stop twisting words...maybe thats why you dont understand the rules right, you twist words around.

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DevianID wrote:And also, with nos's reading you are not a psyker for determining if you can use a power. Only for tests, which dont matter because before you test for a psychic power you must first be a psyker to use the power. Kind of like the force weapon issue.

False. Psykers use powers, but not everything that uses powers must be a Psyker.

wrong, psykers use psychic powers, everything that uses psychic powers are psykers.

No, you didn't say that.

You said, as I quoted, that everything that uses psychic powers are psykers. That statement is incorrect.

I expect an apology.

I expect you to quote ur self right, you left out "psychic" when you said powers...u mis qouted me because I said all psychic powers are used by psykers so if you can tell me, anywhere other then the argued psyker pilot rule, where is there a unit that uses a "psychic" power but is not a psyker.

DK wrote:I expect you to quote ur self right, you left out "psychic" when you said powers...u mis qouted me because I said all psychic powers are used by psykers so if you can tell me, anywhere other then the argued psyker pilot rule, where is there a unit that uses a "psychic" power but is not a psyker.

I'm away from my book at the moment, but is a Tyranid Warrior a Psyker? I don't think they have the Psyker special rule, and yet they continually use a psychic power.

I believe the Tervigon, Tyrant, Swarmlord, and Zoanthrope are all Psykers, but I'm not sure the Warrior is (the Trygon Prime might not be either).

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:I expect you to quote ur self right, you left out "psychic" when you said powers...u mis qouted me because I said all psychic powers are used by psykers so if you can tell me, anywhere other then the argued psyker pilot rule, where is there a unit that uses a "psychic" power but is not a psyker.

I'm away from my book at the moment, but is a Tyranid Warrior a Psyker? I don't think they have the Psyker special rule, and yet they continually use a psychic power.

I believe the Tervigon, Tyrant, Swarmlord, and Zoanthrope are all Psykers, but I'm not sure the Warrior is (the Trygon Prime might not be either).

Warriors and Trygon Primes aren't Psykers, but they also don't use any psychic powers.

Eldar Warlock powers are psychic powers that do not require a psychic test, and Warlocks are not psykers.

rigeld2 wrote:Eldar Warlock powers are psychic powers that do not require a psychic test, and Warlocks are not Psykers.

Fixed that for you.

rigeld2 wrote:Warriors and Trygon Primes aren't Psykers, but they also don't use any psychic powers.

Eldar Warlock powers are psychic powers that do not require a psychic test, and Warlocks are not psykers.

Ah, so they made Synapse a general rule then and not an always on Psychic power? I haven't had a chance to play a game in quite a while, so haven't really digested the newest 'nid book.

Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Eldar Warlock powers are psychic powers that do not require a psychic test, and Warlocks are not Psykers.

Fixed that for you.

Thanks.

IcyCool wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:Warriors and Trygon Primes aren't Psykers, but they also don't use any psychic powers.

Eldar Warlock powers are psychic powers that do not require a psychic test, and Warlocks are not psykers.

Ah, so they made Synapse a general rule then and not an always on Psychic power? I haven't had a chance to play a game in quite a while, so haven't really digested the newest 'nid book.

Correct - it's just a thing that happens when a Psyker uses an ability within Synapse/Shadow in the Warp range.

Yes SitW and Synapse are special rules, Broodlords, Hive Tyrants, Tervigons, and Zoanthropes (and named variants) are the only Psykers in the Tyranid army.

rogueeyes wrote:

DeathReaper wrote: all unactivated force weapons do is ignore armor

If you read the force weapons rule in the rulebook you are required to be a psyker in order to get this extra power. If you are not a psyker for the purpose of a force weapon then you do not have this power thus can never activate a force weapon.

Plus you have the entire point of a DCCW wrong. A DCCW ignores armor saves - it does not cause instant death. It does if the S is double the T of the target but not on T6 and higher models. My argument even stated that you would be able to cast the psychic power to activate the force weapon f you were considered to be psyker for the purpose of the force weapon which confers upon you the psychc power to activate a force weapon.

My argument again:
You must be a psyker in order to be granted a psychic power from a force weapon.
Psychic pilot does not grant you the ability to be a psyker for the purposes of a force weapon.
Thus you do not have the psychic power to cast to activate the force weapon.
Thus you can never use your force weapon.

My argument against being able to use force weapons syncs up with the psychic pilot rule and forces dreadnoughts not to use force weapons because they are not considered psykers for the purpose of force weapons precluding them from having the psychic power to cast.

Maybe you misread the underlined, I said Unactivated, so if you do not use the instagib ability the force weapon only ignores armor saves.

For the orange, Please preovide a page with the actual rules that say this (Not fluff, but rules).

For the dark red,The Psychic Pilot rule allows the dread to be a psyker for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods. Activating a force weapon is a Psychic Test. so it is considered a Psyker for this purpose.

Thus your conclusions are incorrect.

My GOD, DR and nos are agreeing. The end is nigh...

Warlocks are psykers, eldar codex pg 27 quote, "warlocks are psykers"

im looking up the nid codex, but so far no one has a solid answer to my question.

DK wrote:Warlocks are psykers, eldar codex pg 27 quote, "warlocks are psykers"

im looking up the nid codex, but so far no one has a solid answer to my question.

Warlocks are not Psykers - as in they do not have the Psyker special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Warlocks are psykers, eldar codex pg 27 quote, "warlocks are psykers"

im looking up the nid codex, but so far no one has a solid answer to my question.

Warlocks are not Psykers - as in they do not have the Psyker special rule.

how bout you read the warlock power special rule on pg 27 for the class then, since you know so much

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Warlocks are psykers, eldar codex pg 27 quote, "warlocks are psykers"

im looking up the nid codex, but so far no one has a solid answer to my question.

Warlocks are not Psykers - as in they do not have the Psyker special rule.

how bout you read the warlock power special rule on pg 27 for the class then, since you know so much

Um - I did.

See the line right above that that says "Special Rules" and only lists "Fleet of Foot"?

The Warlock Powers section says that warlocks are psykers - not Psykers. There's a difference - Psyker is a special rule.
Warlocks would be affected by Mindstrike Missiles as it references psykers, not Psykers.

You my friend are why codexs have to be writen at a 3rd grade level. Does anyone else back up his point of the Cap "P" makes a diffrence?

Everyone knows most codexs don't list the rule then explain it later, like the GK brotherhood champ "Titan's Herald", it is not listed in the special rules list of common rules, its explained under the SR list, so there for its a SR.

So for the Warlock, warlock powers is a special rule that says he is a psyker. So there for he is a psyker, because his codex entry says that he is a psyker, with psychic powers that he must take, which means he uses psychic powers which makes him a psyker.

DK wrote:You my friend are why codexs have to be writen at a 3rd grade level. Does anyone else back up his point of the Cap "P" makes a diffrence?

Everyone knows most codexs don't list the rule then explain it later, like the GK brotherhood champ "Titan's Herald", it is not listed in the special rules list of common rules, its explained under the SR list, so there for its a SR.

So for the Warlock, warlock powers is a special rule that says he is a psyker. So there for he is a psyker, because his codex entry says that he is a psyker, with psychic powers that he must take, which means he uses psychic powers which makes him a psyker.

#1 Please be polite, it is the #1 forum rule.

#2 If you look at the BRB they capitalize things to differentiate them all the time.

The characteristics are capitalized so when they talk about wounds they are not talking about the Wound characteristic. The same goes for attack and Attacks etc.

So yes, it does make a difference.

DK wrote:You my friend are why codexs have to be writen at a 3rd grade level. Does anyone else back up his point of the Cap "P" makes a diffrence?

Everyone knows most codexs don't list the rule then explain it later, like the GK brotherhood champ "Titan's Herald", it is not listed in the special rules list of common rules, its explained under the SR list, so there for its a SR.

So for the Warlock, warlock powers is a special rule that says he is a psyker. So there for he is a psyker, because his codex entry says that he is a psyker, with psychic powers that he must take, which means he uses psychic powers which makes him a psyker.

Thanks for the insults. I appreciate them.

The special rule you're looking for is "Warlock Powers" not "Psyker". That's what the special rule is called. He is not a Psyker (the special rule).
Using psychic powers does not make him a Psyker - that would require the Psyker special rule which he does not have.
He's a psyker that uses some psychic powers without requiring a Psychic test.

Regardless - DeathReaper replied to your original Dreadnaught conundrum and you should probably reply to him instead of insulting me.

To add to that, getting back to the original topic, there is no other codex, that contains units that have psychic powers that are not psychic.

As for the Dread, same thing, he is psychic, and can use the force weapon on his DCCW, i have seen it used in a GT without question vs a DreadKnight. The fight to make Rhinos and razorbacks not suffer potw from a mind-strike missile is manipulation of the wording. I'm a GK player and i have taken a MSM and agreed it takes a glancing hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

DK wrote:You my friend are why codexs have to be writen at a 3rd grade level. Does anyone else back up his point of the Cap "P" makes a diffrence?

Everyone knows most codexs don't list the rule then explain it later, like the GK brotherhood champ "Titan's Herald", it is not listed in the special rules list of common rules, its explained under the SR list, so there for its a SR.

So for the Warlock, warlock powers is a special rule that says he is a psyker. So there for he is a psyker, because his codex entry says that he is a psyker, with psychic powers that he must take, which means he uses psychic powers which makes him a psyker.

#1 Please be polite, it is the #1 forum rule.

#2 If you look at the BRB they capitalize things to differentiate them all the time.

The characteristics are capitalized so when they talk about wounds they are not talking about the Wound characteristic. The same goes for attack and Attacks etc.

So yes, it does make a difference.

where in the rule book does it say that the caps makes a difference with psykers and Psykers?

DK wrote: i have seen it used in a GT without question vs a DreadKnight.

Because judges (and players) at GTs never get rules wrong - that'd be impossible.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote: i have seen it used in a GT without question vs a DreadKnight.

Because judges (and players) at GTs never get rules wrong - that'd be impossible.

where in the rule book does it say that the caps makes a difference with psykers and Psykers?
answer this question? because i see no rule that says this is the case, therefor its the fluff you got this from not a rule.

In all your arguing that he is not a Psyker, but he would suffer POTW if hit by a mindstrike missle so this argument is pointless.

A warlock is a "p"syker that uses psychic powers, he just doesn't have to test for them. Again looking for another army that has Psychic powers that are not used by (P)sykers or (p)sykers.

To the point, yes people at GT get stuff wrong, but your making a big bet that they are wrong and if the ruling isn't in your favor your rhino is taking a glancing hit. However if your fighting GK vs GK or just missed the enemy that bad on scater and hit your own tank, you might as well just lie to your opponent and just say "o S4 isn't enough to do anything so it misses"

It is a convention that they use, and you notice throughout the entire book.

Look at the Feel no Pain USR on Page 75: "... take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final Wound)."

they differentiate between taking a wound

and a model losing its final Wound.

That is the difference.

In grammar a proper noun are Caps, like the stat line are the the characteristic of the column. The adjective of describing a models as a psyker is not cap in english.

But the Psyker special rule is in caps. Hence the difference between psyker and Psyker

And that's the difference from being a Psyker (Object) and having psychic (adjecive) abilities. Either way, he is a psyker that casts psychic abilities.

DK wrote:And that's the difference from being a Psyker (Object) and having psychic (adjecive) abilities. Either way, he is a psyker that casts psychic abilities.

But something that affected Psykers would not affect him - because he doesn't have that Special Rule.

Okay Grey Knight Vehicles have Psychic Pilots. Are people actually trying to argue that these are not psychers? And that Eldar now have no Psychers also? So is a Inquisitoral Psycher Henchman now also not a psycher? He doesn't have the special rule either.

They act like psykers, but are not in fact psykers. Nor do they have Ld values, despite having ld 10 for the purpose of using psychic powers.

This is weird, but still QUITE clear from the rule in question.

Why are their 3 pages of debate on this?

NecronLord3 wrote:Okay Grey Knight Vehicles have Psychic Pilots. Are people actually trying to argue that these are not psychers? And that Eldar now have no Psychers also? So is a Inquisitoral Psycher Henchman now also not a psycher? He doesn't have the special rule either.

They may be psykers, but they are not Psykers.

DK wrote:under the bhos rule it says the leader taking the test, it dosent say you can use anyone else so no coteaz would not be affected.

Psyker henchman don't have brotherhood rule.

DK wrote:I think the gk book would say "this is the only time it is a psyker and is not affected by weapons that affect psykers" if thats whats intended, even for the Brits thats a broad way of altering a sentence that could be said outload and heard both ways.

We actually have a example of the same writer would write a rule for a vehicle that is treated as a psyker all the times, its the the Blood Angel book, its is written like this:

Psyker: A Furioso Li brarian is a psyker and has two psychic powers from the list given on page 63 (chosen when the army is picked). He can use one power each player turn, and counts as being Leadership 10 for all psychic purposes. If he suffers the Perils of the Warp, treat it as a glancing hit.

As you will notice ihis is nothing like how the PP is written, no mention of being treated as a psyker (it says it very clearly they are psykers), the perils of the warp is exactly the same as for GK, no mention of psychic hood, the fact it even mentions them tells you it is not treated the same as other psykers, Grey knight vehicles do not have access to normal psychic powers, they instead have a vehicle upgrade which works in a similar way to that found in many other codexs, the difference is it is written in away that reflects the way the GK army works, a army of psykers, I'm not sure why you people keep adding a coma into the sentence, it doesn't have one, the raw is being leadership 10 and psyker only apply when taking psychic tests, they do not apply at any other time as the conditions are all linked (hence why the sentence is constructed the way it is). My opinion as to why is it also worded this way is because the rule is meant to represent the crew being psykers rather than the actual vehicle, if I have a psyker in a transport and someone fires a mindstrike missile at it the psyker inside does not suffer a perils, the mechanic of pp does a good job of representing this within the limitations of the rules without creating overlay clunky rules.

DK wrote:Pg 50 brb, under force weapons it says "used by trained psykers " that means the dreadnought is a psyker, so is the rinho

This really doesn't matter as a codex will always override the BRB when we have rules contradictions, the codex states they may use psychic powers, the fact is the GK codex is introduced a new type of psykers, the temporary one, it basically setting a new president.

A warlock is a "p"syker that uses psychic powers, he just doesn't have to test for them. Again looking for another army that has Psychic powers that are not used by (P)sykers or (p)sykers.

Warlocks state they are psykers very clearly just like the BA lib Dread, GK vehicles are not like warlocks as they only say they are conditional psykers

Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

I do think like you, but I have to say that the rhino being a psyker is anything but clear.

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

Yes, the warlocks are psykers and would be affected by the grenades or missiles - because the grenades and missiles state "psykers" and not Psykers.
Psyker henchmen are not psykers or Psykers - they just have a Psychic power. (also, there's the unit that has a Psychic power but is not a Psyker or psyker)
The Rhinos are not Psykers for the purposes of getting shot or assaulted - not that Psyk-out grenades will do anything to a Rhino.

It's quite specfically NOT a psyker. They don't have ld value, either. They roll a ld of 10 AS IF they did when using a psychic power, but they don't actually have one.

It's really clear, it's very specifically what the rule says. It's counter-intuitive and kinda silly, but it's also very much what the rules says.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

Yes, the warlocks are psykers and would be affected by the grenades or missiles - because the grenades and missiles state "psykers" and not Psykers.
Psyker henchmen are not psykers or Psykers - they just have a Psychic power. (also, there's the unit that has a Psychic power but is not a Psyker or psyker)
The Rhinos are not Psykers for the purposes of getting shot or assaulted - not that Psyk-out grenades will do anything to a Rhino.

Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

NecronLord3 wrote:Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

Wait...source of where it says a P/psyker has to have a Ld value?

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

Yes, the warlocks are psykers and would be affected by the grenades or missiles - because the grenades and missiles state "psykers" and not Psykers.
Psyker henchmen are not psykers or Psykers - they just have a Psychic power. (also, there's the unit that has a Psychic power but is not a Psyker or psyker)
The Rhinos are not Psykers for the purposes of getting shot or assaulted - not that Psyk-out grenades will do anything to a Rhino.

Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

Heavy Flamers aren't Heavy.
Meltabombs aren't Metla.
Psykers don't have the Psyker SR or any other SR labeling them psykers or Psykers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Wow... falling off the deep end of credibiility.... in a major way. Psycher =/= Psycher? Seriously WTF?

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

Well, also that the Henchman unit named Psyker in the GK book is not a Psyker nor psyker - as it has no special rules labeling it as such.

so where are the set of rules governing these psykers you talk about since Psyker is in the rule book, where are psykers located?

rigeld2 wrote:

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

DK wrote:so where are the set of rules governing these psykers you talk about since Psyker is in the rule book, where are psykers located?

Anywhere "psyker" is referenced - ie Mindstrike Missiles and Psyk-out grenades.
"psyker" is also referenced in the Psyker section of the rulebook.

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

I want to see the pg that shows the separation of the real Psykers and the ghost psykers they are talking about. because this sound like a made up rule that dosent exists so that you dont get chomped up in games because you dont know how to play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:so where are the set of rules governing these psykers you talk about since Psyker is in the rule book, where are psykers located?

Anywhere "psyker" is referenced - ie Mindstrike Missiles and Psyk-out grenades.
"psyker" is also referenced in the Psyker section of the rulebook.

you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

The debate on psykers comes up a lot with the assassin wanting to treat vehicle as psykers to get more shots or if coteaz is with henchman when they botch their power(as in is he affected also since he is a psyker part of the squad).

it is a convention that they use, and you notice throughout the entire book.

Look at the Feel no Pain USR on Page 75: "... take the wound as normal (removing the model if it loses its final Wound)."

they differentiate between taking a wound

and a model losing its final Wound.

It works the same with Psyker Vs. psyker as well.

DK wrote:Im sorry but without insulting anyone, it is clear that the warlock, the rhino, and the psyker henchman are all psykers, and will be affected by psyk out nades and mind strike missiles. That is what the rules say, not some word twisting of the rule is going to change that. your looking at rules that dont exsist and making up crap like a cap P in front or a basis of the SR has to say something diffrent, if this was true it would have beenFAQed long ago. people fight this all the time at GTs, guess what, there psykers and they will be affected.

I think its clear that the Rhino is not a psyker as it is a tank and has no presence in the warp, the guy driving it certainly is, that kinda goes back to what I said about the rule trying it best to represent how a psyker acts when inside a tank within the constraints of the rules, as for the hencemen its clear they are psykers, its ended with etc which is tell us that they are treated as psykers for everything a normal psyker would be, this is unlike the PP which s clearly saying its a psyker for a few very limited things, I really couldn't are what judges decide in a GT, if you decided to add these imaginary comas then its no wonder they say they are psykers, its just a sad example of people being unable to accept unconventional ideas.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

That's a misquote by the way - I never said that.

The Titansword works on Daemons and Psykers.
Since Psyker could mean either the henchman unit (unlikely) or the Special Rule (likely) it really should be FAQed.
Without an FAQ I'd say it does not affect the Inq. Psykers.

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

Where are you getting this lower case psycher BS? It is upper case in the codex.

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

Where are you getting this lower case psycher BS? It is upper case in the codex.

Im not bringing up lower or upper case. You have to pay pts to upgrade the inquisitor to a psyker. If you didn't buy the upgrade then he is NOT a P/psyker. lol

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

you are avoiding it, what pg is it on that says there is a difference?

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

you are avoiding it, what pg is it on that says there is a difference?

It's a convention of how the 40k rules work.
Or are you asserting that wound and Wound are 100% interchangeable as well?

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

Which portion? His weapon has a few rules to it. As far as daemonbane or str 10 the inq would need the person to be coteaz or an upgraded inq(which makes them a lvl 1 psyker).

Where are you getting this lower case psycher BS? It is upper case in the codex.

Im not bringing up lower or upper case. You have to pay pts to upgrade the inquisitor to a psyker. If you didn't buy the upgrade then he is NOT a P/psyker. lol

And the Inquisitor Henchman Psycher?

As far as the henchman they don't have the psyker rule BUT can suffer perils and in the fluff calls them sanctioned psykers so I'd say they would get affected by mindstrike but thats my preference not a hard fact. Same as I think the vehicles are not affected. The only reason they put in the perils part for pp is incase when rolling fortitude you roll double 1 or 6.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:you totally avoided my question...i know whats in the rule book about Psykers, you are taking about the warlock psyker, what is the scource you are talking about referring to them not being the same.

I didn't avoid your question. You're refusing to accept my answer.

Capitalizing a word in the middle of the sentence means it has a different context from having it be lowercase.
Something that affects Psykers would probably affect psykers, but things that affect psykers probably won't affect Psykers.

And neither of those has anything to do with the Inq. Henchman Psykers that don't have any special rule related to Psykers, but have a psychic power.

you are avoiding it, what pg is it on that says there is a difference?

It's a convention of how the 40k rules work.
Or are you asserting that wound and Wound are 100% interchangeable as well?

the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So dk do you treat LoC as psyker since they use psyker err sorcery? lol They have a ld score all the time.

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

Draigo wrote:So dk do you treat LoC as psyker since they use psyker err sorcery? lol They have a ld score all the time.

everything in the Chaos Daemons book is listed as gifts so they are not psychic abilities. so no

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

Im still waitting for you to get me a pg number, without said pg number showing your point your argument is void and is inadmissible to the Emperor and will be thrown out. You Trolling at this point.

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

SO then what about the henchman? The sanction psyker does not have the rule listed. How do they use psychic barrage by that logic? They aren't in the CD codex so if they aren't powers what are they?

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

False.
All Psykers can use Psychic abilities.
Not all users of Psychic abilities are Psykers.

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

SO then what about the henchman? The sanction psyker does not have the rule listed. How do they use psychic barrage by that logic? They aren't in the CD codex so if they aren't powers what are they?

they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers, so they are a single psyker if they have to take a test, like that DE thing that makes you take a test on 3d6, but if hit by msm its hit as different units.

DK wrote:they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers

Rules citation please.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:the Wound characteristic is in the stat line, so when you say final Wound you are referring to is on Pg 6 of the rule book

taking a wound is found on Pg 19. they are both in the rule book as different things. No where does it say a difference between psykers. so there is only one kind of psyker, so a warlock is a Psyker and will be treated as such.

So you acknowledge that the convention exists, but you just really, really don't want it to apply in this case?

No, he is defining how the rules are in the rule book. The rule book has one section on the use of Psychic Abilities under Psycher. If you aren't a Psycher you can't use Psychic abilities per the BrB.

False.
All Psykers can use Psychic abilities.
Not all users of Psychic abilities are Psykers.

Name calling is not allowed on Dakka. Attack the arguement, not the person. MT11, still waiting on a Pg number and a unit that is not a psyker that uses a psychic ability.

DK wrote:Im still waitting for you to get me a pg number, without said pg number showing your point your argument is void and is inadmissible to the Emperor and will be thrown out. You Trolling at this point.

It's on the same page that shows how English sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation work. Your inability to understand that doesn't make people who disagree with you a troll.

That said, this is pretty much a repeat of the "it affects daemons" debacle. The sensible rules-based approach said, "It affects daemons. What do we have in the rules that identify daemons. Oh, hey! Look at that, a Daemon special rule! Problem solved!" The opposing viewpoint said, "No! That can't be all it affects! It must affect things that have Daemon in their name! I don't have any rules to back that up, but it's the only sensible choice!" There was quite a bit of pointless anger and name calling (your apparent forte), but the position basically boiled down to that.

Rather than listen to any sort of rhyme or reason, the FAQ came out and "clarified" that this meant "things with the daemon rule, things with daemon in their name, and pretty much anything that might be vaguely icky."

So, you know, keep shouting and maybe the next FAQ will give you everything you desire and more.

Just out of curiosity, where can I find the rules for Psycher? I can find the rules for Psyker's but I don't know if they are the same.

DK wrote:Hey Mr troller, still waiting on a Pg number and a unit that is not a psyker that uses a psychic ability.

First you say that I can't read at a higher level than a 3rd grader, and now you're calling me a troll. I love these insults.

There isn't a page number because there's no page reference on how to read the english language.
And I have - repeatedly - referenced the Inq. Henchman model named Psyker. They have a psychic power, and have no Psyker (or psyker) special rule.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers

Rules citation please.

Pg 51 of the GK codex, even tho it uses its name as a psyker, using the fact that names dont mean the weapon, like heavy flamer, it uses both caps and lower case to display psyker.

and for all psychic powers can only be used by psykers, pg 50 of the brb. if not find one unit that uses a psychic ability that is not a psyker. just one

IcyCool wrote:

DK wrote:Im still waitting for you to get me a pg number, without said pg number showing your point your argument is void and is inadmissible to the Emperor and will be thrown out. You Trolling at this point.

It's on the same page that shows how English sentence structure, capitalization, and punctuation work. Your inability to understand that doesn't make people who disagree with you a troll.

That said, this is pretty much a repeat of the "it affects daemons" debacle. The sensible rules-based approach said, "It affects daemons. What do we have in the rules that identify daemons. Oh, hey! Look at that, a Daemon special rule! Problem solved!" The opposing viewpoint said, "No! That can't be all it affects! It must affect things that have Daemon in their name! I don't have any rules to back that up, but it's the only sensible choice!" There was quite a bit of pointless anger and name calling (your apparent forte), but the position basically boiled down to that.

Rather than listen to any sort of rhyme or reason, the FAQ came out and "clarified" that this meant "things with the daemon rule, things with daemon in their name, and pretty much anything that might be vaguely icky."

So, you know, keep shouting and maybe the next FAQ will give you everything you desire and more.

So using the FAQ as precedent without an actual ruling(like so many people like to do anyway), by the GW's logic versus Daemons or anything vaguely Daemonic being Daemons it is fair to assume that anyting with Psycher or using any abilites that are Psychic, would logically be Psychers. Good enough for me or anyone with an ability to reason or use common sense.

Dk you're points aren't holding up since you pick and choose what you want to use.

@Happyjew That's just people unable to spell psyker.

DK wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:they have psychic powers, so they are treated as psykers

Rules citation please.

Pg 51 of the GK codex, even tho it uses its name as a psyker, using the fact that names dont mean the weapon, like heavy flamer, it uses both caps and lower case to display psyker.

It's still missing the special rule, so it does not fall under the Psyker rules in the BRB.

and for all psychic powers can only be used by psykers, pg 50 of the brb. if not find one unit that uses a psychic ability that is not a psyker. just one

Page 50 of the BRB does not say, anywhere, that only Psykers can use psychic powers. Not once.

rigeld2 wrote:

DK wrote:Hey Mr troller, still waiting on a Pg number and a unit that is not a psyker that uses a psychic ability.

First you say that I can't read at a higher level than a 3rd grader, and now you're calling me a troll. I love these insults.

There isn't a page number because there's no page reference on how to read the english language.
And I have - repeatedly - referenced the Inq. Henchman model named Psyker. They have a psychic power, and have no Psyker (or psyker) special rule.

well using your own argument, both Psyker and psyker is used in the barrage description, so your argument goes against your point.

In all honesty i don't really care, i know how to play and i dont try to manipulate rules to win, so consider me unsubscribed.

remember arguing on the internet is like running in the......

NecronLord3 wrote:So using the FAQ as precedent without an actual ruling(like so many people like to do anyway)

Citation - people in YMDC try *not* to do that.

by the GW's logic versus Daemons or anything vaguely Daemonic being Daemons it is fair to assume that anyting with Psycher or using any abilites that are Psychic, would logically be Psychers. Good enough for me or anyone with an ability to reason or use common sense.

More insults - man, this is awesome.

That's fine in a RAI or HYWPI point of view. If that's what you mean then say so. That is absolutely not RAW.

Tone it down everyone, no personal attacks or direct name calling. Attack the argument if you want, but not the person.

Dude that's the same wording as the pp which states only when firing the barrage do they count as a psyker NOT always. lol

rigeld2 wrote:[
Page 50 of the BRB does not say, anywhere, that only Psykers can use psychic powers. Not once.

But it does dictate the use of Psychic powers in vague terms and goes on to explain that the use of psychic powers is explained in greater detail at the Codex level. However, all Psychic abilities still are governed under the root entry in the BrB section Pscyher. Making all units using Psychic abilities Psychers.

DK wrote:well using your own argument, both Psyker and psyker is used in the barrage description, so your argument goes against your point.

Maybe, because, I don't know... it's referring to the model name?

In all honesty i don't really care, i know how to play and i dont try to manipulate rules to win, so consider me unsubscribed.

So... you don't really care... so you were trolling me? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

remember arguing on the internet is like running in the......

\o/ more insults. This is awesome.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NecronLord3 wrote:But it does dictate the use of Psychic powers in vague terms and goes on to explain that the use of psychic powers is explained in greater detail at the Codex level. However, all Psychic abilities still are governed under the root entry in the BrB section Pscyher. Making all units using Psychic abilities Psychers.

No, it doesn't. You're making a leap that isn't supported by the rules.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:[
Page 50 of the BRB does not say, anywhere, that only Psykers can use psychic powers. Not once.

But it does dictate the use of Psychic powers in vague terms and goes on to explain that the use of psychic powers is explained in greater detail at the Codex level. However, all Psychic abilities still are governed under the root entry in the BrB section Pscyher. Making all units using Psychic abilities Psychers.

Except the rule says ONLY a PSYKER when using the ability not always.

See my post above, last time saying it before more warnings are handed out.

Let's go back to the offending sentence:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

If we can reasonably break that sentence into two self-contained sentences, then we can reasonably assume that the "and" is being used here to join two separate concepts:

Sentence 1: 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).'

Sentence 2: 'Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Doesn't work. You need one sentence. It's all one idea.

The vehicle DOESN'T have the Psyker special rule, importantly. It is treated as being a Psyker, and as being Leadership 10, for two named purposes, and only for those two named purposes: Psychic tests and psychic hoods. You can't extrapolate beyond that.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Let's go back to the offending sentence:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

If we can reasonably break that sentence into two self-contained sentences, then we can reasonably assume that the "and" is being used here to join two separate concepts:

Sentence 1: 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).'

Sentence 2: 'Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Doesn't work. You need one sentence. It's all one idea.

The vehicle DOESN'T have the Psyker special rule, importantly. It is treated as being a Psyker, and as being Leadership 10, for two named purposes, and only for those two named purposes: Psychic tests and psychic hoods. You can't extrapolate beyond that.

And that would be fine if it didn't become an effect on multiple codexes. You cannot argue that Farseers, Warlocks, Inq. Psychers, etc. aren't Psychers. They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

This seems like a case of people wanting the benefit of the rule without the Drawback.

NecronLord3 wrote:They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

You still haven't shown the rule that says that.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:So using the FAQ as precedent without an actual ruling(like so many people like to do anyway)

Citation - people in YMDC try *not* to do that.

Yes. More to the point, it is quite clear that the FAQ ruling on the Daemon debacle didn't actually clarify any rule using any sort of existing rules, it fabricated a new one from whole cloth. It's a specific list of everything that ability affects (which should have been included as part of the ability description in the first place).

So, like I said, this issue could be FAQ'd. If it is, and it follows the previous precedent, we'll get a nice big list of things that count as 'Psykers' (which would undoubtedly include things that don't make much sense to be called a psyker at all). And if that happened, the FAQ decision would be no more "rules-based" than the previous one. That's fine for GW to do, but that wasn't my understanding of the purpose or use of YMDC.

NecronLord3 wrote:you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

If you mean that you cannot use a Psychic power without a Psychic Test, then I agree with you (provided the power in question requires a Psychic Test to be used).

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

You still haven't shown the rule that says that.

Pg 50 BrB. First section after the description governing the use of Psychic powers by PSYCHERS.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IcyCool wrote:

If you mean that you cannot use a Psychic power without a Psychic Test, then I agree with you (provided the power in question requires a Psychic Test to be used).

There is no section for Psychics Tests. Only the rules for Psychers.

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:They are as you cannot use a Psychic power without being governed by the Psycher section of the BrB.

You still haven't shown the rule that says that.

Pg 50 BrB. First section after the description governing the use of Psychic powers by PSYCHERS.

Right. And can you point to the sentence that says that only Psykers can use Psychic powers?\

OK so we know how psyKers use psychic powers. But that still doesn't prove that you have to be a psyKer to use psychic powers. As was pointed out, Inquisitorial Psykers are not psyKers nor have the special rule PsyKer, but they can still use psychic powers.

I have to agree with everything Nos and DeathReaper have said, it's pretty easy to understand in my opinion.

Furthermore, a 'Psyker' and a 'psyker' are not the same thing, as many others have stated.

My feeble attempt to clarify this:

'Psyker' with capital P is a Proper Noun, reffering to the rule 'Psyker' in the rulebook.

'psyker' in lower case, is a noun and reffers to models or units who may use psychic powers.

A model described as a 'psyker' can still use Psychic Powers (i.e the Warlock), provided they pass a psychic test, however, they do not need to have the 'Psyker' special rule in order to do so.

So the rhino, which is treated as a Psyker for 2 specific instances. Therfore, has the Psyker rule in those instances only, in any other circumstance, the vehicle is not a Psyker.

I never want to see the word (P/p)syker again.

Iranna.

Iranna, I don't mid the word psyker or Psyker. I don't want to see Psycher or psycher again.

Happyjew wrote:OK so we know how psyKers use psychic powers. But that still doesn't prove that you have to be a psyKer to use psychic powers. As was pointed out, Inquisitorial Psykers are not psyKers nor have the special rule PsyKer, but they can still use psychic powers.

Show me the section of any book that says you can cast psychic powers without being a Psycher. The rules for casting and perils cannot be used without the rules covered in the section of the BrB for
Psychers.

Do what you want but if you argue my GK abilities don't work against your unit using Psychic powers then I'm going to argue that you can't cast them or roll for psychic test either. You can't eat your cake and have it too.

Fair enough, as the only units I use with psychic powers don't need to roll to use them, they are always active. I love my Warlocks...

Iranna wrote:I have to agree with everything Nos and DeathReaper have said, it's pretty easy to understand in my opinion.

Furthermore, a 'Psyker' and a 'psyker' are not the same thing, as many others have stated.

My feeble attempt to clarify this:

'Psyker' with capital P is a Proper Noun, reffering to the rule 'Psyker' in the rulebook.

'psyker' in lower case, is a noun and reffers to models or units who may use psychic powers.

A model described as a 'psyker' can still use Psychic Powers (i.e the Warlock), provided they pass a psychic test, however, they do not need to have the 'Psyker' special rule in order to do so.

So the rhino, which is treated as a Psyker for 2 specific instances. Therfore, has the Psyker rule in those instances only, in any other circumstance, the vehicle is not a Psyker.

I never want to see the word (P/p)syker again.

Iranna.

So Draigo's Titansword only effects Inq. Psychers. As his sword refers to the capitalized proper noun.

Or anyone with the Psyker special rule. We can't prove it one way or the other, however, technically, anyone who does not have the Psyker special rule, or is an Inq. Psyker won't be affected.

I would not be surprised however, if when the next Eldar codex comes out, Farseers and Warlocks have the Psyker special rule.

Happyjew wrote:Or anyone with the Psyker special rule. We can't prove it one way or the other, however, technically, anyone who does not have the Psyker special rule, or is an Inq. Psyker won't be affected.

I would not be surprised however, if when the next Eldar codex comes out, Farseers and Warlocks have the Psyker special rule.

Or if the 6th edition BrB, clarifies in more detail anyone using Psychic abilities is a Psycher(since that doesn't seem to be clear to some people per the current rule book.)

NecronLord3 wrote:So Draigo's Titansword only effects Inq. Psychers. As his sword refers to the capitalized proper noun.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

No, he is saying that Psycher =/= psycher

A Psyker is someone with the Psyker special rule.

A psyker is something else.

So Draigo's Titansword works against Inq. Psychers but Mindstrike missiles don't?

That's a misquote by the way - I never said that.

The Titansword works on Daemons and Psykers.
Since Psyker could mean either the henchman unit (unlikely) or the Special Rule (likely) it really should be FAQed.
Without an FAQ I'd say it does not affect the Inq. Psykers.

Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psykers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psykers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psyker. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psyker.

Really simple.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psychers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psychers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psycher. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psycher.

Really simple.

NO read the codex. Codexes trump brb. It says that they are only psykers when doing specific activities and for the love of god quick typing psycher. It's psyker. lol

So because the only part on how to take saves is in the shooting section, you only take saves against shooting attacks, and not cc attacks?

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psychers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psychers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psycher. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psycher.

Really simple.

NO read the codex. Codexes trump brb. It says that they are only psykers when doing specific activities and for the love of god quick typing psycher. It's psyker. lol

No such rule, specific trumps general. However this is covered in the BrB all Psyker units are governed by the rules in the BrB. More specific rules are covered in each codex, however the are still beholden to the original root entry in the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Auto-correct on my iPad has been altering my "Psykers".

NecronLord3 wrote:No such rule, specific trumps general. However this is covered in the BrB all Psyker units are governed by the rules in the BrB. More specific rules are covered in each codex, however the are still beholden to the original root entry in the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Auto-correct on my iPad has been altering my "Psykers".

Page 74 actually, that was just from a quick glance through the BRB.

Then how does a dk move like a jump infantry with a jump pack and not go inside a sr now? Oh thats right the CODEX says so.

Happyjew wrote:So because the only part on how to take saves is in the shooting section, you only take saves against shooting attacks, and not cc attacks?

Only if you ignore page 39. Taking saves, covered in the assault section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Draigo wrote:Then how does a dk move like a jump infantry with a jump pack and not go inside a sr now? Oh thats right the CODEX says so.

Specific vs. general and was coved in an FAQ, as it was debatable.

Q: Personal teleporters make the unit with them jump infantry. How does this affect a Dreadknight with a personal teleporter? (p28) A: It is a monstrous creature that moves like jump infantry

Automatically Appended Next Post:

itsonlyme wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No such rule, specific trumps general. However this is covered in the BrB all Psyker units are governed by the rules in the BrB. More specific rules are covered in each codex, however the are still beholden to the original root entry in the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Auto-correct on my iPad has been altering my "Psykers".

Page 74 actually, that was just from a quick glance through the BRB.

That references USR. A specific rule.

This is specific since there are only 2 units being disputed and in the rules says ONLY when using their power are they a psyker. That rule excludes them from being mindstrike target.

Draigo wrote:This is specific since there are only 2 units being disputed and in the rules says ONLY when using their power are they a psyker. That rule excludes them from being mindstrike target.

Farseers? Warlocks? Paladins? GKs? IG Psykers?

Paladins have brotherhood of psyker rule that explains how it works for them.

Ok after this last post it's clear you havent read the gk codex because the other gk, pallies etc have their rule spelled out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are not discussin the eldar, ig etc. We are discussing ONLY gk and their rules spells out that they are only psykers when using their ability.

Draigo wrote:Paladins have brotherhood of psyker rule that explains how it works for them.

Ok after this last post it's clear you havent read the gk codex because the other gk, pallies etc have their rule spelled out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are not discussin the eldar, ig etc. We are discussing ONLY gk and their rules spells out that they are only psykers when using their ability.

Haven't read it? My Hundereds of dollars of GK units would disagree.

You may only be discussing GK. We are not. So you want to argue that GK's are only Psykers when using their abilities now too?

One of the other GK players who pretty much has all the rules of all the Codexes laughed at the very concept of your argument this past weekend.

GK very clearly cover how to account for Perils of the Warp tests in the GK Codex and which model to resolve the Perils test, but none having the Psycher Special rule, by your argument would need to take the effects of Mindstrike missiles anyway.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Paladins have brotherhood of psyker rule that explains how it works for them.

Ok after this last post it's clear you havent read the gk codex because the other gk, pallies etc have their rule spelled out.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
We are not discussin the eldar, ig etc. We are discussing ONLY gk and their rules spells out that they are only psykers when using their ability.

Haven't read it? My Hundereds of dollars of GK units would disagree.

You may only be discussing GK. We are not. So you want to argue that GK's are only Psykers when using their abilities now too?

One of the other GK players who pretty much has all the rules of all the Codexes laughed at the very concept of your argument this past weekend.

GK very clearly cover how to account for Perils of the Warp tests in the GK Codex and which model to resolve the Perils test, but none having the Psycher Special rule, by your argument would need to take the effects of Mindstrike missiles anyway.

That's because when they wrote the codex only those with a psyker level were actually always psykers and those other you mention were psykers when using a rule like activating a force weapon. I also don't care about the laughing man since he is not here.

So how does your club run psyk out grenades? Do they affect dreadnaughts? Do you have them affect the entire squad? How exactly do you cherry pick which rules are allowed? I also doubt you have gk or read the codex since you made such a silly statement but left out botp rule.

Draigo wrote:
So how does your club run psyk out grenades? Do they affect dreadnaughts? Do you have them affect the entire squad?

Yes

isnt it as simple as taking a psychic test means your a psyker?
otherwise, how do you use the power at all in the first place?

DK wrote:Wait...source of where it says a P/psyker has to have a Ld value?

Psykers do not need a leadership value. In order to use a psychic power you must take a leadership test which then requires a leadership value.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Let's go back to the offending sentence:

'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1) and Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

If we can reasonably break that sentence into two self-contained sentences, then we can reasonably assume that the "and" is being used here to join two separate concepts:

Sentence 1: 'A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker (Mastery level 1).'

Sentence 2: 'Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.'

Doesn't work. You need one sentence. It's all one idea.

The vehicle DOESN'T have the Psyker special rule, importantly. It is treated as being a Psyker, and as being Leadership 10, for two named purposes, and only for those two named purposes: Psychic tests and psychic hoods. You can't extrapolate beyond that.

Just chopping a sentence in half does not mean you correctly created an argument. You have to take all of the parts of the sentence and sentence structure into account which is the predicate and what it actually pertains to. The predicate in this case is for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods and the argument centers around if it applies to being a psyker (mastery level 1) and/or Leadership 10. Correct grammar states that it is ambiguous and can be for the last or for both areas.

There is also an argument about the DE wargear piece and also force weapons. The DE piece I'm not familiar with.

The force weapons argument states:
That force weapons are used by trained psykers. - This is argued to be fluff but is also in the rules.
Force weapons grant the user a psychic power.
If you are not a psyker for purposes of a force weapon you are not granted that power thus cannot activate the force weapon.

DE wargear states that psykers that a leadership test and removed if something or other and if no leadership they are removed.
GK psychic pilots are only leadership 10 for psychic powers and psychic hoods thus they are auto removed.

Really the argument comes down to is a vehicle a psyker all the time or only for the clause stated in the subject above.

The subject is vehicle.
The modifier to the subject is psyker
The modifier to the subject is leadership 10.
The clause is for the purposes of ...

Basically the AND either makes it a list of modifiers or combines two separate sentences into a single complex sentence when the second sentence has a clause on the modifier to the subject. In your argument you left out the subject in the second sentence and acted like they were a combined sentence rather than a complex sentence.

Draigo wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

Draigo wrote:Poor dead horse doesn't deserve this beating but guess needed to be said again.

Psyker(the henchman) and vehicles are only psykers when using their ability since they can peril or be hooded. Otherwise they are NOT psykers. It says in the ability count as psykers when activating their powers. I don't see why people can't get that.

Round and round we go... Pg 50 BrB you cannot use psychic powers without using the rules on that page which pertains to the abilities of Psychers. If you want to roll for Psychic test, you must use the rules for Psychers. Suffering from perils of the warp? You can't unless you are a Psycher. Activating Force Weapons? Only if you are a Psycher.

Really simple.

NO read the codex. Codexes trump brb. It says that they are only psykers when doing specific activities and for the love of god quick typing psycher. It's psyker. lol

Codex does not trump BRB. Specific trumps general.

Force weapons are listed under Psyker rules. Force weapons grant the user a psychic ability. In order to use the psychic ability you must be a psyker because you must use the psychic rules listed on the Psykers page in the BRB. If you are near a tyranid you must replace these rules with those in the Tyranid codex because they are more specific then the ones in the BRB and it states exactly how that is done - on 3D6.

It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

It says they are psykers when doing the test. That it. Split hairs but they only do tests when using their power.

Draigo wrote:

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

It says they are psykers when doing the test. That it. Split hairs but they only do tests when using their power.

thats not what it says, it says they are psykers (mastery level 1) and have ld 10 for the test, read mastery level 1 also. your adding words and changing the emphasis on words to sound the way you want.

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:It says in their rule that they are ONLY psykers when using the ability and it applies just to perils AND hood. It's not that hard to get. Tired of people posting who do not read the codex.

the gk codex does not say the word "only"

It says they are psykers when doing the test. That it. Split hairs but they only do tests when using their power.

thats not what it says, it says they are psykers (mastery level 1) and have ld 10 for the test, read mastery level 1 also. your adding words and changing the emphasis on words to sound the way you want.

No Im reading and typing the henchmans rule.

As far as the vehicle it just says they have psychoactive plating and use the power. PG 33 never says they become psykers.

In the FAQ they clarify what a Daemon is because it became a question, this group seems to be the only one that has need for a what is a Psyker question answered. since no one else has this problem.

As a general reminder:

As my esteemed colleague suggests -

This is the third time we have had to come in here to settle things down today. Those of you who have been posting in here for pages on end, time to quit. You are clearly not going to agree anytime soon and you are monopolizing this thread with your arguments.

Take your back and forth to PMs if you want to continue by all means, but it time for you to let other people post in this thread, people who would like to speak about this in a civil and non-aggressive manner.

If you think this message may be addressing you personally, it likely is. Move along.

ok, im willing to say your side wins on the notion that words are literal...that also means inv sv cannot be tanken vs clensing flame and crows cf ings inv sv because hit cc attacks rend on a 4+, and the faq says cf is a cc attack. is this right as well?

DK wrote:ok, im willing to say your side wins on the notion that words are literal...that also means inv sv cannot be tanken vs clensing flame and crows cf ings inv sv because hit cc attacks rend on a 4+, and the faq says cf is a cc attack. is this right as well?

No.

Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, but you do not roll "to wound" with it (which is how you Rend). It wounds on a 4+. Different things.

And why would an invulnerable save not work vs Cleansing Flame?

Also, please don't abbreviate so much - it makes your posts hard to read.

rogueeyes wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

rogueeyes wrote:A dreadnought is not considered a psyker for purposes of a force weapon.

It is if you read the Psychic Pilot rule on P.21 of the GK codex.

Since activating a force weapon requires a psychic test.

If you don't activate the instagib ability it is still a force weapon, but that does not matter as all unactivated force weapons do is ignore armor saves, which the doomfist, being a DCCW, does anyway on merit of it being a DCCW.

If you read the force weapons rule in the rulebook you are required to be a psyker in order to get this extra power. If you are not a psyker for the purpose of a force weapon then you do not have this power thus can never activate a force weapon.

Plus you have the entire point of a DCCW wrong. A DCCW ignores armor saves - it does not cause instant death. It does if the S is double the T of the target but not on T6 and higher models. My argument even stated that you would be able to cast the psychic power to activate the force weapon f you were considered to be psyker for the purpose of the force weapon which confers upon you the psychc power to activate a force weapon.

My argument again:
You must be a psyker in order to be granted a psychic power from a force weapon.
Psychic pilot does not grant you the ability to be a psyker for the purposes of a force weapon.
Thus you do not have the psychic power to cast to activate the force weapon.
Thus you can never use your force weapon.

Now if you look at my original argument that you are always a psyker and that you are leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods then this argument allows you to have the power to activate your force weapon. Because of a logical error and ambiguous grammar you can attribute the predicate of the sentence to all of the combined sentence. The sentence can be broken into multiple parts:

A Vehicle with this special rule
- This clarifies that it is only attributable to vehicles so if any other model has this rule it doesn't get any benefit from it.
is treated as a psyker (Mastery level 1)
- this states that the model is treated as a psyker
and Leadership 10
- this is giving a leadership value to the model
for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods
-This clarifies when the model has the leadership 10 value.

When creating an argument you must be able to create the argument forwards and backwards and logically be able to gain the same conclusion. The issue is that the clause for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic hoods is being attributed to the entire sentence before rather than just the individual subject that come before.

My argument against being able to use force weapons syncs up with the psychic pilot rule and forces dreadnoughts not to use force weapons because they are not considered psykers for the purpose of force weapons precluding them from having the psychic power to cast.

Psychic Pilot says "...for the purposes of Psychic Tests..."

Force Weapons are activated with a Psychic Test.


It seems legal for a Dreadnought to use his Doomfist.

Well to me it would appear that this has turned into a "vs gk" topic since everything is an attempt to nurf them. so im out.

Again with the persecution complex.....

I play GK, and I say (and with rules support) that you are wrong.

Dont make it a :theyre all against us" situation, when it isnt - youre assuming other people are biased in their reading of rules, which is not only wrong but very, very rude and unlikely to make you a popular figure here.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again with the persecution complex.....

I play GK, and I say (and with rules support) that you are wrong.

Dont make it a :theyre all against us" situation, when it isnt - youre assuming other people are biased in their reading of rules, which is not only wrong but very, very rude and unlikely to make you a popular figure here.

popular? its a forum.

I have played gk since the old codex, and since the new codex have played more games then I can remember, so hearing a vehicle is "sometimes" a psyker sounds crazy, se we agree to disagree. Thats it.

DK wrote:Well to me it would appear that this has turned into a "vs gk" topic since everything is an attempt to nurf them. so im out.

Please explain where I've said anything that would indicate that.
If that's how my posts come across, I apologize.

I absolutely try and leave any bias I have - for or against - at the door, and I think I do a good job.
All I'm arguing is rules.

DK wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Again with the persecution complex.....

I play GK, and I say (and with rules support) that you are wrong.

Dont make it a :theyre all against us" situation, when it isnt - youre assuming other people are biased in their reading of rules, which is not only wrong but very, very rude and unlikely to make you a popular figure here.

popular? its a forum.

I have played gk since the old codex, and since the new codex have played more games then I can remember, so hearing a vehicle is "sometimes" a psyker sounds crazy, se we agree to disagree. Thats it.

What does the dh codex have to do with this? I also find it odd that you accuse others who play gk they're persecuting the gk. lol

DK - popular as in "people can be bothered to listen to your points", as opposed to dismissing you out of hand as not worth the time to respond to. Its why most people post on a forum after all..

You're not the only one to have played GKs for a looong time, and given the entire codex was written to limit the number of psykers around at anyone point, it shouldnt be a shock.

Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

... Okay?
And we've shown that dreadnaughts are able to use force weapons - they're Psykers for the purposes of psychic tests, and activating a force weapon is a psychic test.

But if you just want to stop posting altogether, that's up to you.

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

Making ignorant blanket statements don't make you sound better. You've just been condescending from the get go so don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Draigo wrote:

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

Making ignorant blanket statements don't make you sound better. You've just been condescending from the get go so don't let the door hit you on the way out.

im still waitting on where the other governing rules are for psykers that lets a psyker not be a psyker all the ti e, but this is such a rare situation and it has recived 7pgs of fighting. Other then gk vs gk this could only really happen if you hit your own rhino with a msm. If you do that just bow your head in shame and roll a glance hit on ur rhino.

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

You don't need a page reference, it's quite clear: Psyker and psyker.

Furthermore, just because you don't agree with other posters' opinions you don't need to take a strop; differences in opinions are why this Sub-Forum exists. Grammar plays a very important role in determining the meaning of things as one apostrophe or comma can change the entire meaning in a sentence.

Again, Dreadnoughts can activate Force Weapons because they "count as Psykers for the purposes of Psychic Tests..." and Force weapons require a Psychic Test to use.

Iranna.

This is like the Bible, thats why there is so many religion off the basis of one book thats has been translated so many times. so again, agree to disagree. this whole argument is based on opinion and interpretation not fact.

Iranna wrote:

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

You don't need a page reference, it's quite clear: Psyker and psyker.

Iranna.

Please site a page for this rule you are referencing to the different types of Psykers?

Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

NecronLord3 wrote:

Iranna wrote:

DK wrote:Well with ppls points in mind no one has given me a pg refrence to the diffrence between psyker in SR and psyker thats not, so im not sure I want advice from anyone here. If a mod can tell me how to delete my profile I would be happy since this seems to be the place for 14yr olds to chat about tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

You don't need a page reference, it's quite clear: Psyker and psyker.

Iranna.

Please site a page for this rule you are referencing to the different types of Psykers?

There is the model in the GK codex called a Psyker which is a model that can make up henchmen squads.

Then there are models with the Psyker special rule.

DK wrote:tweeking grammar in the rules and making a psyker only a psyker some of the time and dreadnoughts not able to use a force weapon.

Well, in a rules discussion, it is important to read what the rules actually say. So yes, grammar, spelling, punctuation, and sentence structure are all important.

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

And as for your "vs. GK" contention, how exactly is "Psychic Pilot vehicles are unaffected by Mind Strike Missiles" in any way against GK? Doesn't it actually increase their power?

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

The have Psychic powers. I wonder if there's a rule on how to use them.
Oh there is! What happens if I roll a 2 or 12 on that test? Oh there's a rule for that!

The section it's in doesn't matter. There's no restriction to psychic powers only ever being used by Psykers.

IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

The have Psychic powers. I wonder if there's a rule on how to use them.
Oh there is! What happens if I roll a 2 or 12 on that test? Oh there's a rule for that!

The section it's in doesn't matter. There's no restriction to psychic powers only ever being used by Psykers.

Yes there is pg. 50 BrB rules for casting psychic powers, and taking perils tests.

NecronLord3 wrote:Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

There is no rule that says that.

Yes there is pg. 50 BrB rules for casting psychic powers, and taken perils tests.

Nothing, at all, in those rules restricts them to only Psykers.

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

Ordinarily yes, but Psychic Pilot specifically gives permission for the Dreadnought to be a Psyker for using psychic powers. Of which a force weapon is one of them.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

There is no rule that says that.

Yes there is pg. 50 BrB rules for casting psychic powers, and taken perils tests.

Nothing, at all, in those rules restricts them to only Psykers.

Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

IcyCool wrote:

As has been pointed out to you, Dreads can use force weapons without being a Psyker.

Site a rule.

Pg. 50 BrB governing the use of force weapons. Under heading Psyker. If you are not this unit type you cannot activate Force Weapons.

Ordinarily yes, but Psychic Pilot specifically gives permission for the Dreadnought to be a Psyker for using psychic powers. Of which a force weapon is one of them.

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

what necronlord3 said

Actually it does, thats the topic this thread has been on about.


"The vehicle is treated as a Psyker and is Ld 10 for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods"

This clearly says it is a psyker for Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods only. If they had meant for it to be a psyker for all purposes they would have omitted "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods"


as it is, the sentance is all inclusive for the circumstances where the vehicle is a psyker. It is only a psyker when taking a psychic test or when psychic hoods are involved. if anything effects psykers at the points where those things happen it will effect them, but otherwise the dreadnought is not a psyker.

So SitW, RoW, the Wolf thingys SW have, and Psychic Hoods may act as normal. Everything else doesn't work because when they are activated the vehicle isn't a psyker.

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Draigo wrote:@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

you realize necronlord3 and I have said has a pg, @draigo you are the one that has yet to show anything but a misinterpreted line out of the gk book, and in thst line means a break. because English would have worded "he is a psyker that has ld10 for the psychic test only."

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

you realize necronlord3 and I have said has a pg, @draigo you are the one that has yet to show anything but a misinterpreted line out of the gk book, and in thst line means a break. because English would have worded "he is a psyker that has ld10 for the psychic test only."

It doesn't have to include the word only. The fact that 40k is a permissive rules set means that unless it says "for everything" it's not for everything.

DK wrote:

Draigo wrote:@rigeld2

Hes just parroting DK he has yet to present anything of his own.
He's becoming a troll.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
THE rule in the codex says so.

you realize necronlord3 and I have said has a pg, @draigo you are the one that has yet to show anything but a misinterpreted line out of the gk book, and in thst line means a break. because English would have worded "he is a psyker that has ld10 for the psychic test only."

No I brought up the henchman and the rule in the codex.

The only thing you and necron say is look at the brb. Codex does trump brb otherwise no armies speacial rules would matter. As I also brought up in the personal teleporter dk example.

Draigo wrote:Codex does trump brb otherwise no armies speacial rules would matter

No, specific trumps general. In most cases, that will lead to the rule in the codex beating the rule in the BRB, but it also applies to rules in the BRB beating other rules in the BRB, and some cases rules in the BRB beating rules in a Codex.

In what case has the brb trumped a codex speacial rule?

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Try reading my response the first time you referenced this entirely incorrect analogy. If you want to ignore page 39 of the BrB referencing taking save during assaults, lmk.

On topic all of you arguing for the upper and lower case reference to Psykers. Read mind strike missiles it says it effects psykers LOWER CASE. The rules for Psychic Pilot makes a vehicles a psyker mastery level 1, also LOWERCASE. So would you like to argue that mind strike missiles don't effect Draigo, Mephiston, Librarians?

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Try reading my response the first time you referenced this entirely incorrect analogy. If you want to ignore page 39 of the BrB referencing taking save during assaults, lmk.

Right. It tells you to reference shooting.
Psychic powers are Psychic powers. You look up the rules for those. They exist on page 50. There is nothing preventing the use of those rules.

On topic all of you arguing for the upper and lower case reference to Psykers. Read mind strike missiles it says it effects psykers LOWER CASE. The rules for Psychic Pilot makes a vehicles a psyker mastery level 1, also LOWERCASE. So would you like to argue that mind strike missiles don't effect Draigo, Mephiston, Librarians?

The rules for Psychic Pilot make him a psyker (1) for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods.
The upper/lowercase has nothing to do with this.

Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

Draigo wrote:Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

1) In the BRB p.50 there are rules for psykers.

Under the main Psyker heading:
"Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn."

Under Perils of the warp: "...the psyker suffers 1 wound with no armour or cover saves allowd."

Under Psychic shooting attacks: "So, for example, the psyker must be able to see his target unit..."

There are no rules for non-psykers to use psychic powers.

2) Grammatically the comma is option. The lack of a comma does not indicate which way the rule is meant to be read. It is grammatically correct either way.

This could be read:
A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker.
A vehicle with this special rule is Leadership 10 for the purposes of Psychic tests and psychic hoods.

This is not definitive, but the lack of a comma does not restrict this interpretation as possibly being correct.

3) Only psykers are required to take psychic tests. BRB p. 50
"To use a pschic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test.

Someone could disprove this point if they can show anywhere that anyone other than a psyker must pass a Psychic test to use a psychic power.

4) If the vehicle wasn't a psyker for all purposes, it would not have to take a psychic test and could never suffer Perils:

the rules for Psychic tests are only defined for psykers.

5) i know this is YMDC and you may disregard this point but isn't the name of the power enough of a clue?
Psychic Pilot! The vehicle is treated as a psyker (level 1) because the pilot is the psyker! He doesn't flip the psykic switch on the dashboard, he is the psyker! Born that way! He psychically triggers the vehicles psycho-reactive armour plating.

It's clear, this rule is intended for vehicles with the Psykic Pilot rule to be counted as psykers (Mastery Level 1).

Draigo wrote:Um necronlord Draigo has a psyker level/psyker rule. lol So does the libby and meph..

wow, your side changes its argument to fight tooth and nail. he said its affects lower case psyker and draigo is a uppercase psyker.

ninjaed

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Yes it does. You can ignore it but is the entire rules section Psykers. If you aren't a Psyker, you can't use any of the rules in that section.

All references to saves are in the Shooting section, and make references to shooting. So you can only take saves against shooting?

Permission to be a Pyker, makes him a Psyker. It does not say only for.

It gives you permission for 2 specific circumstances. In a permissive rules set, if you don't have permission to always be a Psyker, you aren't always a Psyker.

Try reading my response the first time you referenced this entirely incorrect analogy. If you want to ignore page 39 of the BrB referencing taking save during assaults, lmk.

Right. It tells you to reference shooting.
Psychic powers are Psychic powers. You look up the rules for those. They exist on page 50. There is nothing preventing the use of those rules.

On topic all of you arguing for the upper and lower case reference to Psykers. Read mind strike missiles it says it effects psykers LOWER CASE. The rules for Psychic Pilot makes a vehicles a psyker mastery level 1, also LOWERCASE. So would you like to argue that mind strike missiles don't effect Draigo, Mephiston, Librarians?

The rules for Psychic Pilot make him a psyker (1) for the purposes of Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods.
The upper/lowercase has nothing to do with this.

Pg 39 specifically tells you how to take saves in CC in the same way as in the shooting section. You are eroding any credibility you might have making this statement.

No Psychic Pilot makes him psyker (mastery lv1) and Leadership 10 for Psychic Tests and Psychic Hoods, no where does it makes ANY exclusions to being a Psyker at any time.

NecronLord3 wrote:No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

P.46 BA codex "Psyker: A Blood Angels Librarian is a psyker, as described in the 40k rulebook,..."

your argument is invalid.

the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

Well said Nemesor Dave.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

P.46 BA codex "Psyker: A Blood Angels Librarian is a psyker, as described in the 40k rulebook,..."

your argument is invalid.

Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

NecronLord3 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:No they are Psykers. Not psykers. Mind strike missiles only effect psykers, so Draigo, Mephiston and the like that have the Psyker special rule aren't psykers, by the reasoning of some people,in this thread.

P.46 BA codex "Psyker: A Blood Angels Librarian is a psyker, as described in the 40k rulebook,..."

your argument is invalid.

Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)

Psykers follow the rules on P.50 in the BRB so your argument here is still invalid.

NecronLord3 wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

It tells us what the vehicle is (a psyker and LD10), then it explains the situations in which they are a psyker and LD10.

They are a psyker for the purposes of...

They are LD 10 for the purposes of...

"For the purposes of" applies to the entire sentence, not just the LD 10 part. that is not the right way to read the sentence.

The sentance IS exclusive because this is a permissive rule set.

If the rule didn't have any restrictions it would fall under the general restrictions which apply to psykers, however since it says "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" it automatically places the restriction of it only being a psyker in those cases.

It would have to be a completely unrestricted sentance for it to be able to be correctly interpreted otherwise.

NecronLord3 wrote:Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)

The Psyker special rule refers to the Psyker section of the rule book, which uses the lowercase reference. You're really reaching here.

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

Not. In. A. Permissive. Rules. Set.

You're only allowed to do what you're told. You are told he's a Psyker for 2 purposes. You are not told he's always a Psyker. Therefore he is not always a Psyker.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Not for GK Librarians. Which is fine for me since I play GK, mind strike missiles won't hurt my HQs but they do hurt Blood Angel Librarians. +1!(if I were to take the opposite position)

The Psyker special rule refers to the Psyker section of the rule book, which uses the lowercase reference. You're really reaching here.

Grey Templar wrote:the "for the purposes of psychic tests and psychic hoods" part is what excludes the vehicle from being a psyker at all times.

it is attached to the entirety of the sentance and there are no commas anywhere in there. Reading it as if there is a comma there is wrong and changes the meaning of the rule.

No you are reading it as an excursion, it is an inclusion. To be an exclusion it would need some sort of separation, like saying only for these purposes. It does not.

Not. In. A. Permissive. Rules. Set.

You're only allowed to do what you're told. You are told he's a Psyker for 2 purposes. You are not told he's always a Psyker. Therefore he is not always a Psyker.

I'm not the one making the BS argument about upper and lower case Psykers. I've read the rule, Psykes are psykers there is no difference. Your side is arguing differently.

You ARE told he is a Psyker. Rules effecting Psykers effect Pschic pilots it is a.given permission in the permissive rules set. You are told how a vehicle goes about casting his Psychic powers and perils test because there is no permission for vehicles to do so in the Psyker section of the BrB, pg 50.

Where does it say Draigo is always a Psyker?

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm not the one making the BS argument about upper and lower case Psykers. I've read the rule, Psykes are psykers there is no difference. Your side is arguing differently.

All Psykers are psykers, not all psykers are Psykers.

You ARE told he is a Psyker. Rules effecting Psykers effect Pschic pilots it is a.given permission in the permissive rules set. You are told how a vehicle goes about casting his Psychic powers and perils test because there is no permission for vehicles to do so in the Psyker section of the BrB, pg 50.

You are told it's a Psyker for some situations.
Because there's a limit on the situations it's a Psyker, it is not a Psyker for all situations.

Where does it say Draigo is always a Psyker?

The Psyker special rule with no caveats.

Psyker henchmen do NOT have the psyker rule is what rigeld2 is getting at with that I believe.

rigeld2 wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:I'm not the one making the BS argument about upper and lower case Psykers. I've read the rule, Psykes are psykers there is no difference. Your side is arguing differently.

All Psykers are psykers, not all psykers are Psykers.

You ARE told he is a Psyker. Rules effecting Psykers effect Pschic pilots it is a.given permission in the permissive rules set. You are told how a vehicle goes about casting his Psychic powers and perils test because there is no permission for vehicles to do so in the Psyker section of the BrB, pg 50.

You are told it's a Psyker for some situations.
Because there's a limit on the situations it's a Psyker, it is not a Psyker for all situations.

Where does it say Draigo is always a Psyker?

The Psyker special rule with no caveats.

You are not told they are Psykers for some situations. You are told they are psyker (mastery lvl 1) AND LD10 for psychic tests and psychic hoods. This is in addition to the first part of the sentence. The second part is to explain how a unit with no leadership value can cast psychic powers and take tests, since units without a leadership value would, in a normal case, not be able to fulfill the requirements on pg 50 of the BrB governing the use of Psykers.

Permissive ruleset does not say that MSM effect units with the Psyker special rule.

Grey Templar wrote:Psyker henchmen do NOT have the psyker rule is what rigeld2 is getting at with that I believe.

And MSM do not target units with the Psyker special rule, they target psykers, which is what all units using Psychic abilities are.

NecronLord3 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:Psyker henchmen do NOT have the psyker rule is what rigeld2 is getting at with that I believe.

And MSM do not target units with the Psyker special rule, they target psykers, which is what all units using Pschic abilities are.

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

OK.

Eldar codex wrote:Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between X and Y Farseer psychic powers.
Warlock Powers" Each Warlock is a psyker and may be given X Warlock powers at the point cost listed.

Happyjew wrote:

NecronLord3 wrote:Please reference a rule on how a Farseers can use pschic powers or suffer a perils of the warp without being a psyker?

OK.

Eldar codex wrote:Psychic Powers: A Farseer is a psyker and must choose between X and Y Farseer psychic powers.
Warlock Powers" Each Warlock is a psyker and may be given X Warlock powers at the point cost listed.

"A Farseer is a psyker..."

Just guessing, I think this means a Farseer is a psyker.

Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

I can see you have capitalized one over the other, but your argument is not as obvious as you may think it is. Perhaps explain?

I'll take this opportunity to quote BRB p50. 2nd paragraph first two sentences.

"Psykers can use one psychic power per player turn. To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pas..."

Perhaps you can explain in your view which one this is about; Psykers, psykers or PSYKERS (as in the title of the page)?

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

You mean having a wound characteristic and causing a wound? Both of those are specifically covered in the BrB. Show me the section on non-Psykers using psychic powers?

NecronLord3 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Happyjew wrote:Exactly, which means things that affect psykers will affect Farseers, however, since they do not have the Psyker special rule, things that affect Psykers would not affect them.

There is absolutely no distinction based on capitalization in any rules.

Wound and wound.

You mean having a wound characteristic and causing a wound? Both of those are specifically covered in the BrB. Show me the section on non-Psykers using psychic powers?

Do you have an example of what you're trying prove or should I comb through the entire BRB looking to prove your point that I'm not entirely sure of?

Edit meaning Rigeld2 of course. I believe he should provide his own quotes to prove his point about wound and Wound if it is even relevant.

Ok, let me tell you a little story about player A and player B. It is a mysterious and dark tale. With much grimness and darkness!

2 GK players are playing each other in a game of warhammer 40,000. One player (player a) has a stormraven gunship, the other player (player b) has a Rhino. Player A moves his stormraven into 24" range moving combat speed. He is now allowed to fire all if his weapons. Player A fires mindstrike missiles and his other weapons at the rhino. A mindstrike missile hits the rhino. Let me check to see what a mindstrike missile does. S4, ap 6, Psi-shock*. Oh, a special rule, what does that do?

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects"

Sounds scary.

Player B now checks his Rhino special rules. The rhino has a special rule called Psychic pilot. It says "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods" Player B makes sure he is not making a pyschic test or rolling against a psychic hood. No, neither of those are allowed as the rhino can only use it's power in the movement phase. So, since neither of those conditions are met, then the Rhino cannot be a psyker and is therefore not affected by psi-schock.

Now, say one of the shots from the other weapons shook the rhino of player B. After that, Player A ends his turn.

During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

Im still waitting of a pg ref for what the diffrence between Psyker and psyker. At the same time for the story above, that rhino player would see, "if suffers potw it takes a glance hit" at its own sentence

Dok wrote:Ok, let me tell you a little story about player A and player B. It is a mysterious and dark tale. With much grimness and darkness!

2 GK players are playing each other in a game of warhammer 40,000. One player (player a) has a stormraven gunship, the other player (player b) has a Rhino. Player A moves his stormraven into 24" range moving combat speed. He is now allowed to fire all if his weapons. Player A fires mindstrike missiles and his other weapons at the rhino. A mindstrike missile hits the rhino. Let me check to see what a mindstrike missile does. S4, ap 6, Psi-shock*. Oh, a special rule, what does that do?

"Any psyker hit by a mindstrike missile suffers the Perils of the Warp in addition to any other effects"

Sounds scary.

Player B now checks his Rhino special rules. The rhino has a special rule called Psychic pilot. It says "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods" Player B makes sure he is not making a pyschic test or rolling against a psychic hood. No, neither of those are allowed as the rhino can only use it's power in the movement phase. So, since neither of those conditions are met, then the Rhino cannot be a psyker and is therefore not affected by psi-schock.

Now, say one of the shots from the other weapons shook the rhino of player B. After that, Player A ends his turn.

During Player B's movement phase, they again return to the Rhino. The Rhino has a power called fortitude that it may use in the movement phase. This power requires a psychic test. Let me go back to Psychic pilot to see when I have permission to do that. "A vehicle with this special rule is treated as being a psyker and leadership 10 for the purposes of psychic tests and pyschic hoods"

Oh, ok. So since I am required to make a psychic test now, I am now given permission to be a psyker for the duration of the psychic test (Made at ld 10) and for any attempts to negate this power with a psychic hood.

No that is entirely wrong. Psyker is not an on again off again ability. You either are a Psyker or you aren't. Just as infantry is always infantry, Montourous Creatures are always Montorous creatures, etc... You can be both Jump Infantry and a Monsourous Creature, or Infantry and a Psyker but you can't choose to be one at one time, and another t another time. Psychic Pilots are Psykers Matery Level 1. That is it. The rest of their rules cover how units with no LD value can cast Psychic powers or roll against Psychic hoods. Does the tank become leadership 10 and suddenly become effected by pinning weapons? No, it is LD 10 only for psychic tests and rolls against hoods. Nothing stops it from being a Psyker.