Lots of dicussion, circa pg. 5, on how FW is NOT using the "Finecast" resin mixture. --Janthkin
Today I got at the mail the new Tartaros Terminators kit and I was shocked to discover that instead of the resin that FW used for its other kits, the models in this one were made from finecast. The models were in sprues similar to the finecast sprues, but what convinced me was both the colour and the consistency of the resin. Simply put, the new resin is softer and more malleable than the older one.
As far as I have noticed, there are many more bubbles and miscasts than usual (several of mould misalignments and mostly on the helmets, which is extremely annoying). AND there was a lot of flash and mould pieces left on some surfaces. Almost every bit has a flash "fur" at its edges.
I can't say I am thrilled about the change, especially since the new material resembles soft plastic (softer than GW's plastic) and it is slightly better quality than the Finecast casts.
Check the pictures and you will realise why my frustration mounts up the more time I spend preparing these models. E.g. not a single backpack vane has been formed fully. Incredible. 40.32 pounds in total for 5 models, just to get this!
Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
Sirius42 wrote:Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
Oh, mate, you're preaching to the choir here. Plus, I am so frustrated, because I keep on finding new bubble holes and bast pieces (mostly half formed details that snap off).
Sirius42 wrote:Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
I don't know if this is a typical batch or if FW is struggling with the new sprue type castings, but whatever material they are using on that mold is not at all suited for it. I've heard of warped or bubbled forgeworld parts, but that looks outright defective. If it is the usual forgeworld resin then perhaps a change of equipment or working conditions is to blame.
I really hope this isn't a true case of FW going finecast since it would be: A) the exact opposite of what they need to do, lowering fw quality to finecast rather than learning proper resin production from the FW crew, B) the loss of some of the finest quality models in the industry, and C) the loss of the last bastion of integrity and creative pride in GW's corporate structure.
Well, hopefully the large kits stay in resin, not switch to finecast. Makes me wonder how I should vote for the Mk VIII armor if its going to turn out in that crap.
edit: I guess we should have noticed though. See the marine on the left?
Sirius42 wrote:Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
Oh, mate, you're preaching to the choir here. Plus, I am so frustrated, because I keep on finding new bubble holes and bast pieces (mostly half formed details that snap off).
I'm currently on Limited edition 25th anniversary marine number 5, I've had parts that are acceptable (which i've kept) but still waiting on a good base. I like the models and the hobby, but we all know its expensive, I do not mind paying a premium product but I expect it to be of premium quality, or, to use a much loved analogy, would you buy a new ferarri with a scratch on it (regardless of how small)?
Sirius42 wrote:Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
Trust me from experience, you get a lot further with customer service being nice than a demanding, obnoxious a-hole.
OP, simply explain the situation politely, GW and FW customer service are stellar, and they will send replacements without you needing to resort to being rude about it. I received a replacement finecast DP without them giving it a second thought. No pictures, no return, I didn't even go into great detail, simply stated which piece had a miscast and they just shipped me a replacement.
I think you interpreted what he wanted to do wrong. I think he wants to go to cs even for the smallest things because that is what we should expect of FW
To everyone who is saying be anal to the CS reps. DONT!!!!!
They have no control over anything above returns. In alot of companies they are workers treated only better then the janitor and kitchen staff. If you be a Jerk to them they will sometimes refuse to help you
Sirius42 wrote:Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
Trust me from experience, you get a lot further with customer service being nice than a demanding, obnoxious a-hole.
OP, simply explain the situation politely, GW and FW customer service are stellar, and they will send replacements without you needing to resort to being rude about it. I received a replacement finecast DP without them giving it a second thought. No pictures, no return, I didn't even go into great detail, simply stated which piece had a miscast and they just shipped me a replacement.
I was in no way suggesting being an 'a-hole' apologies if that was how it came across, I was merely suggesting persistence and zero tolerance.
For the love of...Forgeworld has stated THEMSELVES that they use DIFFERENT RESINS FOR DIFFERENT MODELS! I am SICK of these threads!
These claims of "Forgeworld switching to Finecast" for every single model are completely unfounded, and have been disproven in statements by Forgeworld themselves. Also, sprues =/= Finecast; call FW Customer Service and get your replacements.
Can we please get an admin to close this thread before it devolves, as all "Finecast" threads tend to?
Oh S**T! This is bad news for us Death Korps guys... :(
But then again, maybe it will just be the new stuff from now on that will be like this and the old stuff will remain the same? Heres hoping!
Oh and looking at those pics... yikes! It wouldn't be an issue if it was a small one man company who was casting these in his garage... instead its from the biggest company who said these new finecast models would be the best quality on the market etc and instead have failed to deliver on their promise time and time again... I think they should stick to plastic!
Kepora wrote:For the love of...Forgeworld has stated THEMSELVES that they use DIFFERENT RESINS FOR DIFFERENT MODELS! I am SICK of these threads!
These claims of "Forgeworld switching to Finecast" for every single model are completely unfounded, and have been disproven in statements by Forgeworld themselves. Also, sprues =/= Finecast; call FW Customer Service and get your replacements.
Can we please get an admin to close this thread before it devolves, as all "Finecast" threads tend to?
I ordered the PH tank crew, it was on sprue similarly, but no problems I saw. FW is pretty ace at replacing anything you aren't satisfied with... it sucks to wait but you can be sure they will sort you out.
Not sure if the sprue is Finecast though, I will have to have a closer look. If it is, on a cursory examination everything looks fine. I am on the fence on this... maybe FW can show GW how to do it right... or maybe finecast will wreck FW's quality... I was happy with regular resin though...
I was in no way suggesting being an 'a-hole' apologies if that was how it came across, I was merely suggesting persistence and zero tolerance.
I wasn't 100% sure since you were advising calling and demanding a replacement. Demand being the key word that made me question it. I was mostly just putting it out there in case anyone thought calling angry about an issue would somehow resolve there issue more effectively then just being polite. As negative as people can be around here towards GW, I just wanted to express that they shouldn't direct those frustrations at the customer service guy who there to help you.
You are 100% correct that you should not accept less than perfect sculpts. You pay a premium for the product and should not have to accept defective merchandise.
Kepora wrote:For the love of...Forgeworld has stated THEMSELVES that they use DIFFERENT RESINS FOR DIFFERENT MODELS! I am SICK of these threads!
These claims of "Forgeworld switching to Finecast" for every single model are completely unfounded, and have been disproven in statements by Forgeworld themselves. Also, sprues =/= Finecast; call FW Customer Service and get your replacements.
Can we please get an admin to close this thread before it devolves, as all "Finecast" threads tend to?
Aww Just when I thought this thread was gonna get juicy. . .
I have had FW in the past, and the pieces came on bits of square mold bits and insertions attached, but looking nothing like those pictures the OP Posted, BoLS also posted about this and it is making folks worry as it does look a lot like the sprue style of FC. NOw I have had FW vehicles that had similar large chunks to shave off, and some mold line issues, and for the price of them, it was a shock to see it.
Lately I switched to other sources for standard resin vehicles, cheaper they were, and came ready to assemble basically. It may take a bit longer for them to arrive, but the Old Crow lines are crisp, clean, no lifting agent, and smoothed or sanded down where it would be shiny and bulging, or any potential sprue lines might be.
It looks like FW is having to double check QA on this issue and I hope that they will do so faster than the mother company has with FC.
Well, hopefully the large kits stay in resin, not switch to finecast. Makes me wonder how I should vote for the Mk VIII armor if its going to turn out in that crap.
edit: I guess we should have noticed though. See the marine on the left?
FW has been doing infantry on sprues for a while now... not all sprues are finecast but they may share a similar casting process which could result in similar flaws as bubbles and flashing and mold misalignments seem to be a result of these particular sprues...
Maybe the material has nothing to do with the flaws and it is these dumb little sprue casting?
FW has good CS so I am not terribly worried about future purchases, but I also collect orks so I don't have any new molds I have to 'worry' about like these retro marines.
Two things. First the sprued FW I got was not the same type of resin as the GW Finecast line. Second I have seen a lot of horror stories about Finecast but I yet have had any problems. Of resin miniatures the ones I have were of better quality than a lot of my older forgeworld models. I do not know if I am lucky or you guys are just impossibly unlucky.
Capitansolstice wrote:I am not pleased to announce, I will officially never buy FW again, or finecast
Really? That's all it takes to quit buying a product because its finecast?
Ive ordered a few items from Forgeworld and it is hit or miss with problems, though Ive seen more problems with Forge World then GW's finecast. Are we (all of us) to lazy to return it, contact company by email/phone, etc and say "hey theres a prob I cant fix"...which by the way they fix for ya.
Ok, it has air bubbles or bent weapon, etc. Fix it like they suggest. warm it up in hot water then bend it back...or fill it up with that snazzy liquid greenstuff and blammoo!!! its fixed.
Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store? Come on people its been a year since Finecast has been released, GW replaces any problems free of charge if you cant fix it yourself. Can we not find something else to rant and rampage about?
You should go to the Finecast discussion in discussions, some folks have been getting replacements at poor quality levels over and over, it should not take a year to fix things, especially when you are aware of it as a company. The price/quality is so crazy as they have touted the product of Finecast as the greatest invention since the (Insert invention here). Yet they have yet to make it so that folks do not NEED to call CS. Most feel that 20+bucks for a single mini should not have to also include multiple calls to fix a problem and still not have a model to have yet in their army due to not being able to assemble it or fix glaring problems.
Father Gabe wrote: Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store? Come on people its been a year since Finecast has been released, GW replaces any problems free of charge if you cant fix it yourself. Can we not find something else to rant and rampage about?
Interesting comparison. Now, let me ask you this -
Did the clothing company assure you that the product you were buying was the best clothing on Earth, and rant and rave about its quality?
And then, when you realized your clothing was full of holes, and you tried to return it, were you given either more clothing with holes in it, or told that the clothing you bought passed their quality control?
And did that clothing company tell you to fix the problem on your own, and then try to sell you an overpriced sowing kit?
And you're telling me you'd have no problem with that?
You're absolutely right that it's been a year after Finecast's release - and if they still can't be bothered to fix the problem with it, what does that say about them as a company? And what does that say about you, as a compliant customer?
frozenwastes wrote:When it comes to reproducing miniatures, getting a clean cast free of major defects should not be some Olympian feat. It's the basics.
Why buy stuff when they can't get the basics right?
Many of us have had almost no problems whatsoever. The percentage of flaws in my personal experience has been the same as when I bought metals. I have actually gotten more metal flaws recently than finecast as I got a lot of miscast shoulderpads and other ork bitz from GW which were metals.
So since I can get perfect models from both FW and GW without effort, not sure I have an issue. This is not going to deter me from buying FW models should I want one.
Ok, it has air bubbles or bent weapon, etc. Fix it like they suggest. warm it up in hot water then bend it back...or fill it up with that snazzy liquid greenstuff and blammoo!!! its fixed.
Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store? Come on people its been a year since Finecast has been released, GW replaces any problems free of charge if you cant fix it yourself. Can we not find something else to rant and rampage about?
Now, I agree with infinite_array.
Let's compare this to something else that touts itself as the best, as does both Finecast and Forge World. If I go to the Car Store, and buy a Porsche that I can't look at in person, and it shows up at my house, after I paid the shipping, and the body has HOLES in it, I don't expect Porsche to seriously tell me over the phone "Sir, can't you buy some of our overpriced Bondo and have a go at fixing that yourself?".
Now, when we say that GW has a great Customer Service department, they do. Because they set aside, each month, a set amount of money, per a set customer number. I believe that amount used to be $25 up $50 a month. So this is planned into their budget. A fixed operating cost. Kind of like groceries figure in a set amount of merchandise to be lost to pilferage each month. However, this doesn't alleviate the Quality Control/Quality Assurance issues that they can't seem to overcome.
And, when it comes to Forge World, let's be perfectly honest. When they pack my order, they pack it by hand. So, someone at Forge World -PHYSICALLY- touches each premiumly priced piece of resin that they send me. For them to send me something that is subpar really makes me wonder: What does this company really think of me, their customer?
Also, if we're going to pose the question of how hard is it to Quality Control the making of these resin game pieces: Why can't GW and FW somehow figure out these issues, when the Russian and Chinese who have obviously copied and are casting FW items and selling them on Ebay seem to cast with fewer defects. I've seen numerous examples [who believe that said Russian/Chinese are resellers who somehow make money selling at a loss] and they seem to be equal to the old FW standard. And at least THEY haven't switched to Finecast yet.
Sirius42 wrote:Well this is not good. To the op, (and everyone who gets mini's even slightly miscast for that matter) I am currently operating on a zero tolerance policy for any resin minis, if anything is miscast even slightly I will not repair it, same goes for any loss of detail or air bubbles bigger than the pinhole ones we used to get from old forgeworld casting, if these are on a smooth surface such as a sword then I even reject these.
I recommend everyone who risks GW or FW finecast do the same thing, be totally anal about it, otherwise they'll never learn and continue to pull this crap on us.
In your case this means backpack vents, so demand a replacement for them all, and if you get a replacement that is unacceptable then keep at it or request a refund. If you really want to make a point, clip all the bits off the sprue first so there is no way they can try to re-sell (not that I think they would)...
Good luck
This guy has the 100% right idea,they want to make a switch thats their puragative.
But we can forve them to either do it right or switch back to the old stuff.
I will go so far as if he first model is bad insist that every piece is hand inspected
Now, when we say that GW has a great Customer Service department, they do.
Gah. I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but screw it. I disgree.
How does GW have great customer service? They sell you a broken/poorly made item. You ask for a better version of what you bought. GW complies.
That's what every other company does. If I go and buy an iPod, or a Ford, or a Dell, and upon receiving it there's something wrong with it, it's not some sort of miracle that the company will replace it!
Does Ford replace your F-150 without even seeing the one you bought? Do you keep the one you bought? If it's easier to replace a single part on the truck do they ship you out the whole truck anyway?
Now, when we say that GW has a great Customer Service department, they do.
Gah. I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but screw it. I disgree.
How does GW have great customer service? They sell you a broken/poorly made item. You ask for a better version of what you bought. GW complies.
That's what every other company does. If I go and buy an iPod, or a Ford, or a Dell, and upon receiving it there's something wrong with it, it's not some sort of miracle that the company will replace it!
Apparently you have never had a car dealership argue that something is wear and tear or not under warranty when it clearly should be. I have owned multiple new cars and it is a constant struggle to get most car companies to honor their warranties, not screw you buy making you buy bullcrap features, making them provide evidence they actually replaced the part they said, actually provide and stick to an estimate and not bill you when there is a recall for the exact issue.
You have also probably never had to deal with one of those crappy 'buy at register' warranties where the store fights between if this is a manufacturer warranty, a store warranty or not covered and dealing with frustratingly bad phone support and I store support attempting to weasel out of their responsibility even when the issue is clearly a manufacturer flaw.
Don't even get me started on cell phones... Hence you have to buy 'no questions asked' insurance as they basically refuse to honor anything and blame any and all 'not working' actions on user error and you breaking the phone and it can come broken in the box and without paying them 'insurance' you are ass out.
And good luck except sizing your right to just give up, walk away and get a full refund... No way! We suckered your ass with a rebate which made your item cost super cheap but now you can't return it due to special language and you should have waited past the 30 day return to verify you are happy before you submit the 32 day rebate!
Oh, and don't even attempt to return the broken or defective item without a receipt... And we won't refund it to your card you may get a check in 4-6 weeks.
So yeah, GWCS where they send you replacements with no need to RMA the product based solely on your word and do In store exchanges for basically anything, no receipt... I do see a drastic difference in the way GW handles themselves VS almost every other retail business out there.
Now, when we say that GW has a great Customer Service department, they do.
Gah. I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but screw it. I disgree.
How does GW have great customer service? They sell you a broken/poorly made item. You ask for a better version of what you bought. GW complies.
That's what every other company does. If I go and buy an iPod, or a Ford, or a Dell, and upon receiving it there's something wrong with it, it's not some sort of miracle that the company will replace it!
Exactly. And all those companies you listed have good or better Customer Service departments. Have you dealt with HP? I'll literally never own another HP printer. Their CS is terrible, and they know it and DON'T CARE. GW has great CS because it's built into their budget, just all the other long persisting companies. They choose to devote money to replacement and mollification of it's customer base, instead of improving its QC, which must cost more. However, let's look at a "miniature" (sort of) toy making company who has both a great product, it costs (relatively) an arm and a leg, has superb Quality Control AND world class Customer Service (that has never asked me hide a defect, repair it myself, and has certainly never asked me to produce evidence of having their product in my possession like I'm an integrity-less scab): Lego. It started out small, but routinely delivers only the best product. It's competitors (which we'll refer to as Knockoffs) have even had major lines (like Marvel [read: Spider-Man]), and still can't compare nor compete. Have you ever seen a child who knows what Legos are open a Knockoff, and watch their face deflate? Now, don't get me wrong, some brands just over-power rationality. My son loves the crap out of the Halo Knockoffs. But he's six. He's got a lot of years before the real world and reality crush his nostalgic memories. (I'm looking at you 80s GI Joe cartoons and 90s Mech Commander video games).
I'm nostalgic over the fun I remember having playing Space Hulk with my kid brothers, reading the really awesome content in White Dwarf. I don't know that I'll be nostalgic over where the quality of miniatures is going these days. Plus, when I have to kill zombies in the near future, I can't even melt my miniatures down (like in The Patriot) to esplode their heads. Have we made an internet petition to thank GW for saving us all that money by not using the super expensive metals anymore?
Edited to point out: Esplode is not a spelling error.
HP is terrible... We spent tens of thousands of dollars documenting a motherboard failure of a class of laptops my company purchased which HP deflected for months saying was bad use and issues with software and us damaging the processors (all bullcrap) only after close to a whole year of lost productivity, HP became very interested in our extensive evidence and documentation as they finally identified a hardware flaw from the manufacturer in china and they were using our equipment as evidence of the issue. They eventually replaced the equipment but not after a solid year of runaround, lies, deflection, rudeness and still producing substandard equipment.
HP May be the only game in town for printers but their computers and servers leave a lot to be desired as they play catch up and their customer service flaws show as like everyone else, tier 1 is blame the customer first.
You do realize that computer manufacturers purposefully put out damaged hardware instead of extensive testing because it is cheaper to let the customer deal with the 'burn in' phase to expose factory flaws... And hell you might even get them to pay you for the luxury by getting those Neato 'no questions asked' warranties which allow you to get an item you are already fully within your rights to get replaced... But easier!
These companies do not have great customer service and these companies have a model based upon customers eating a lot of the costs via misdirection and inconvenience.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Does Ford replace your F-150 without even seeing the one you bought? Do you keep the one you bought? If it's easier to replace a single part on the truck do they ship you out the whole truck anyway?
GW does.
Slavetodorkness Im sort of shocked to see a post like this from you. That is unless Im mixing you with SlavetoDarkness.
Anyways. the only reason GW doesnt check or ask for shipment back is simple.
They dont want to spend $6 shipping fee to have you return something that is worth a few cents.
I'll toss in my two cents. There was a photo a while back that Beasts of War or BoLS posted, can't remember which, that had Forgeworld blisters with new packaging, made to be sold in stores with "40K approved" on it. We heard rumors that with the advent of 6th edition GW might want Forgeworld to do supplements. My feeling is that if GW wants to start selling Forgeworld stuff in their stores, or if they want to make Forgeworld stuff commonplace amongst games of 6th edition then perhaps they want the resin to be switched to Finecast because it's not toxic and GW can sell FW stuff to kids without fear or hassle.
We'll obviously have to wait and see if this is a consistent thing, but if they are using finecast resin, I can no longer buy from Forgeworld in confidence, which is a real shame, considering how much I love a lot of their models.
Considering how many times I have seen a "forgeworld purchase is warped/miscast/broken" threads, I don't see why people are getting so hilariously bent out of shape about this news.
You took a chance before, and you're takeing one again. If you have dem problems call up dem noice folks at da cervice desk and asxk dem suppa polite like to send you a replacemument.
Blimy it be afker midnikt, so spellfings are no longker an iskew to dis here lad.
Y'know I see this as being mixed, yeah finecast sucks, yeah I figured FW was gonna try it at some point. But and I do mean but, while FW and GW quality control operations are gak, their customer service is top notch, I have called in miscasts and gotten replacements.... with miscasts, so I call those in... and get miscasts, so I get another replacement.... and I give up and fix it myself but hey I just got 3 terminator librarians for the price of one.
GW and FW operators DO NOT CARE ABOUT SENDING REPLACEMENTS. It ain't their money and they'll happily fix your problem to get you off the phone. While I do not like finecast in comparison to GW plastic or FW resin I accept it as fact and it will not change.
Plus side, I really hated those new termies, now their being finecast I hope will hurt their sales even further so now FW will probably look at producing more terminators sooner than originally planned.
The casting quality of those parts is decidedly subpar, far beyond anything I've ever had from Forgeworld*. The scarring on the side of the stormbolter seems to indicate they're mistreating their moulds, too, since that could only have resulted from the silicone being torn.
*The worst I've had were some warped parts and one or two pieces that needed resculpting. Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
Pretty much every other miniature manufacturer I've dealt with (I play a few eras of historicals in addition to a few different fantasy and sci-fi games) seems to have no problems producing metal, resin and plastic miniatures without major defects. I just don't get why FW & GW can't get it right.
Every resin piece I've seen from Spartan Games has been fine. Privateer has had missing parts, but I've never gotten a miscast. Mantic's stuff has always been perfect for me. Even tiny one man operations like Khurasan Miniatures or the many conversion bitz suppliers that make their own stuff (Like Kromlech, which is awesome) got their stuff to me without any casting problems (and next to no detectable mould lines). Perry Miniatures? Great. Victrix? No problem. Reaper? Always fine. Ground Zero Games? Perfect. Old Crow Model's resin kits? Barely even have micro bubbles. 1/72 plastics like HaT and Zvezda? Never an error once in over 1000 figures.
Forge World? Finecast? At this point I don't know why people keep rewarding incompetence with further purchases. I guess their saving grace is their replacement policy. You can sell a higher rate of crap if you garauntee to replace it. Seems like a backwards way to do business though.
Stanley Rubric wrote:I'll toss in my two cents. There was a photo a while back that Beasts of War or BoLS posted, can't remember which, that had Forgeworld blisters with new packaging, made to be sold in stores with "40K approved" on it. We heard rumors that with the advent of 6th edition GW might want Forgeworld to do supplements. My feeling is that if GW wants to start selling Forgeworld stuff in their stores, or if they want to make Forgeworld stuff commonplace amongst games of 6th edition then perhaps they want the resin to be switched to Finecast because it's not toxic and GW can sell FW stuff to kids without fear or hassle.
That's not it, at all. Forge World themselves addressed the blister pack meaning "Are they gonna start selling stuff in stores?!" conclusions.
Forge World wrote:Nope. We periodically change our packaging and the clampack option is a lot better. We wouldn't be able to meet the demand of wholesale production without significantly affecting our quality control.
They also (like in October or so?) answered a question where someone noted that their Death Korps models felt like Finecast. FW answered (not verbatim here as I do not have the quote handy) that they experimented with Finecast for a bit. It worked okay, but it wasn't worth the switchover costs for them.
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Agamemnon2 wrote:The casting quality of those parts is decidedly subpar, far beyond anything I've ever had from Forgeworld*. The scarring on the side of the stormbolter seems to indicate they're mistreating their moulds, too, since that could only have resulted from the silicone being torn.
*The worst I've had were some warped parts and one or two pieces that needed resculpting. Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
Agreed. This is when you call them or raise an unholy ruckus on their Facebook page if you cannot guarantee you can call them during business hours.
October 2011 wasn't so long ago. It's unlikely they tried finecast, decided against it, and then decided to go back to it, all in the span of 6 months.
LunaHound wrote:Umm Kan, I know you keep copy pasting that.... info from Oct... 2011?
But it seems like there are numerous post that says otherwise..
Perhaps you need an updated info from FW....
That quote I pasted is from March of this year, actually. They were asked about the clamshell packages, and they answered.
Those "numerous posts" have also yet to prove their statements to any reasonable measure. They flip out over the fact that their models came on sprues or they had a miscast, but ignore that the resin is a darker shade than Finecast's mixture has been(which uniformly has been a rather white-grey color) and is not as flexible as Finecast's stuff has been.
People can post all they want about Forge World "switching to Finecast!!!11!!"--that doesn't make it true.
I'll also add right here and now, that the majority of the pieces which people have claimed to be Finecast--came out quite awhile after they finished their test runs with the stuff. They did Chaos Dwarf infantry (specifically: the "basic" Infernal Guard kits) and Death Korps of Krieg weapon teams. The goal was reputedly to test and see if Finecast made full, large-scale production of these models financially feasible.
ph34r wrote:October 2011 wasn't so long ago. It's unlikely they tried finecast, decided against it, and then decided to go back to it, all in the span of 6 months.
Alright, lets call it just an "coincidence" that people received Forgeworld via a"new and different way of casting"
during Feburary 2012, March 2012, and in this thread April 2012.
Just coincidence.
And really... you 2 seriously don't need to get so defensive.
look at it this way, k?
1) It doesnt matter to me EVEN IF they are casted the same way as finecast,
aslong as it works, I.really.dont.care.how. I just want a good product like everyone else.
2) if it does work, that means FC is getting better, again, good news for everyone.
Clearly it is an all together new technique with the same publicity it could have possibly be called Forgecast or something like that. Not them copying what must seem like an easier, cheaper and faster way to rush models out at the expense of quality.
n0t_u wrote:Clearly it is an all together new technique with the same publicity it could have possibly be called Forgecast or something like that. Not them copying what must seem like an easier, cheaper and faster way to rush models out at the expense of quality.
I know right? "Finecast" is like some sort of stigma that everyone is so terrified of.
frozenwastes wrote:Privateer has had missing parts, but I've never gotten a miscast.
I've seen some horrific Privateer miscasts in the heavy warjacks, actually. Entire torsos squidged into uselessness, massive gouges in place of mold lines, etc.
I think what frozenwastes was getting at was that PP does not have the same reputation for miscasting that GW has since the implementation of finecast.
I do like them doing the plastic clampacks, though. They should withstand the odd post-office knock (because apparently people shouldn't expect their packages to arrive untrampled) a lot better than little plastic baggies.
LunaHound wrote:And really... you 2 seriously don't need to get so defensive.
look at it this way, k?
1) It doesnt matter to me EVEN IF they are casted the same way as finecast, aslong as it works, I.really.dont.care.how. I just want a good product like everyone else.
2) if it does work, that means FC is getting better, again, good news for everyone.
So dont get so defensive.
I'm defensive? Were you attacking me? I think I missed that.
Or if you mean defensive... of Forge World, well? It just doesn't add up for me. I like to be on the side of what makes the most sense.
helium42 wrote:I think what frozenwastes was getting at was that PP does not have the same reputation for miscasting that GW has since the implementation of finecast.
because not as many people buy PP stuff?
Agamemnon2 wrote:I do like them doing the plastic clampacks, though. They should withstand the odd post-office knock (because apparently people shouldn't expect their packages to arrive untrampled) a lot better than little plastic baggies.
Totally agreed there! Makes the idea of owrdering Krieg, Traitor Guard, or early-mark armor much nicer than via the baggies!
Breotan wrote:Even if FW does Finecast it should still be better than GW's stuff simply because they use vacuum casting instead of spincasting.
Absolutely! If FW switched to the same/similar resin, I for one would be happy because it'd be easier to cut, glue and overall convert (so much work to do to make loyalist scum into proper Iron Warriors...)!
Well, hopefully the large kits stay in resin, not switch to finecast. Makes me wonder how I should vote for the Mk VIII armor if its going to turn out in that crap.
edit: I guess we should have noticed though. See the marine on the left?
New terminators are ugly AND finecast?!?
Definitely not interested one bit.
...Finecast models aren't resin models? And Finecast is the name of the brand, not the resin type. And Forgeworld uses different resins for different models, just whatever seems to work best, hence the lack of consistency of color. Perhaps this is why GW has so many problems, trying to force the same type of resin to fulfill so many different roles?
darknightwing wrote:Two things. First the sprued FW I got was not the same type of resin as the GW Finecast line. Second I have seen a lot of horror stories about Finecast but I yet have had any problems. Of resin miniatures the ones I have were of better quality than a lot of my older forgeworld models. I do not know if I am lucky or you guys are just impossibly unlucky.
Same. I visited Paper Heroes down in lake Charles about a week ago, looked over roughly 30-40 Finecast models. All looked totally fine; looking forward to converting Arjac into a Termie Wolf Lord for my buddy!
Father Gabe wrote:
Capitansolstice wrote:I am not pleased to announce, I will officially never buy FW again, or finecast
Really? That's all it takes to quit buying a product because its finecast?
Ive ordered a few items from Forgeworld and it is hit or miss with problems, though Ive seen more problems with Forge World then GW's finecast. Are we (all of us) to lazy to return it, contact company by email/phone, etc and say "hey theres a prob I cant fix"...which by the way they fix for ya.
Ok, it has air bubbles or bent weapon, etc. Fix it like they suggest. warm it up in hot water then bend it back...or fill it up with that snazzy liquid greenstuff and blammoo!!! its fixed.
Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store? Come on people its been a year since Finecast has been released, GW replaces any problems free of charge if you cant fix it yourself. Can we not find something else to rant and rampage about?
Quoted for truth.
Fafnir wrote:We'll obviously have to wait and see if this is a consistent thing, but if they are using finecast resin, I can no longer buy from Forgeworld in confidence, which is a real shame, considering how much I love a lot of their models.
...Why? They've already mastered the use of numerous other types of resin. And, unlike GW, you can actually contact FW in a far more open manner via their Assbook page.
Fafnir wrote:We'll obviously have to wait and see if this is a consistent thing, but if they are using finecast resin, I can no longer buy from Forgeworld in confidence, which is a real shame, considering how much I love a lot of their models.
...Why? They've already mastered the use of numerous other types of resin. And, unlike GW, you can actually contact FW in a far more open manner via their Assbook page.
Because finecast resin has quite the reputation of being utter gak. And sure, I can contact customer support, but when I'm paying a premium (of premiums) price for what I'm buying, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops just to get a decent cast.
Agamemnon2 wrote:Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
I had one of those Valkyries, only in my case, the cabin roof was 1/2" thicker on one side than the other.
That said, it's not stopped my buying FW, and I will be buying those Terminators for my upcoming Mentor Legion project.
Agamemnon2 wrote:Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
I had one of those Valkyries, only in my case, the cabin roof was 1/2" thicker on one side than the other.
That said, it's not stopped my buying FW, and I will be buying those Terminators for my upcoming Mentor Legion project.
Me too, but my reason is simpler. Cuz its cheaper than actual GW termies xDDDDDDDDDDD
Agamemnon2 wrote:Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
I had one of those Valkyries, only in my case, the cabin roof was 1/2" thicker on one side than the other.
That said, it's not stopped my buying FW, and I will be buying those Terminators for my upcoming Mentor Legion project.
Me too, but my reason is simpler. Cuz its cheaper than actual GW termies xDDDDDDDDDDD
Holy gak, you're right!
I think that this issue needs to be resolved with a price rise, it's the only reasonable solution. On both the GW and FW termies.
Agamemnon2 wrote:Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
I had one of those Valkyries, only in my case, the cabin roof was 1/2" thicker on one side than the other.
That said, it's not stopped my buying FW, and I will be buying those Terminators for my upcoming Mentor Legion project.
Me too, but my reason is simpler. Cuz its cheaper than actual GW termies xDDDDDDDDDDD
Holy gak, you're right!
I think that this issue needs to be resolved with a price rise, it's the only reasonable solution. On both the GW and FW termies.
I bet FW is torn on that isnt it!
If the yraise the FW price, Britain will be like WTF???? NO.
OR FW could force prices to be different on different countries like how GW does it...
LOL they cant! so we are safe xD ( well what they can do is raise the price by 5% ish and hope everyone deals with it )
Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store?
Yes.
If I go to Walmart and find a rip - I chaulk it up and return it next time I am there.
If I go to Jos.Banks and find a rip - I am upset and think about not going to that to store again (which is why they have provided a buy-one get one free when I returned the shirt). Dress shirts cost $90 at Jos.Banks versus $25 at Walmart.
Fafnir wrote:We'll obviously have to wait and see if this is a consistent thing, but if they are using finecast resin, I can no longer buy from Forgeworld in confidence, which is a real shame, considering how much I love a lot of their models.
...Why? They've already mastered the use of numerous other types of resin. And, unlike GW, you can actually contact FW in a far more open manner via their Assbook page.
Because finecast resin has quite the reputation of being utter gak. And sure, I can contact customer support, but when I'm paying a premium (of premiums) price for what I'm buying, I shouldn't have to jump through hoops just to get a decent cast.
How do you know it's the resin and not GW's process of casting? The way things are casted makes ALL the difference; as for the resin itself, it's a model-builder's dream when the process of casting it is done properly.
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H.B.M.C. wrote:
Breotan wrote:... still be better than GW's stuff...
ph34r wrote: I like to be on the side of what makes the most sense.
A couple of us lol'd from that, sorry xD
LunaHound wrote:Me too, but my reason is simpler. Cuz its cheaper than actual GW termies xDDDDDDDDDDD
You think so?
FW terminators: $58 USD, plus a mandatory 15% "feth you" shipping cost regardless of actual packaging costs, for a grand total of $68 for awful terminators that look worse than the normal, don't come with options, and do not even have poseable midsections.
Citadel terminators: $50 USD, minus up to 25% off standard from online resellers, plus easily accessible free shipping, for a grand total of $37.5 for terminators that aren't made of crap material and actually come with weapons options.
Forge World Facebook page wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
Guess the trials aren't over yet.
Oh, and i LOLed at this quote:
Forge World wrote:We periodically change our packaging and the clampack option is a lot better. We wouldn't be able to meet the demand of wholesale production without significantly affecting our quality control.
Forge World Facebook page wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
Guess the trials aren't over yet.
I'm not sure how you got "trials aren't over yet" from "Finecast resin is not Forge World Resin."
...Finecast models aren't resin models? And Finecast is the name of the brand, not the resin type. And Forgeworld uses different resins for different models, just whatever seems to work best, hence the lack of consistency of color. Perhaps this is why GW has so many problems, trying to force the same type of resin to fulfill so many different roles?
I was hoping for some sarcasm in my internet voice with that one. As for FW using different resin for different stuff, I've done 2 Warhounds, a Dreadclaw, Nurgle Daemon Prince and Herald, Death Guard terminator and Plague Marine kits, Blood Slaughterer, Ork Mega Dread, and a TON of vanilla Marine shoulder pads and guns, and they've all been the same resin (in feel, sanding, cutting, scraping.)
...Finecast models aren't resin models? And Finecast is the name of the brand, not the resin type. And Forgeworld uses different resins for different models, just whatever seems to work best, hence the lack of consistency of color. Perhaps this is why GW has so many problems, trying to force the same type of resin to fulfill so many different roles?
I was hoping for some sarcasm in my internet voice with that one. As for FW using different resin for different stuff, I've done 2 Warhounds, a Dreadclaw, Nurgle Daemon Prince and Herald, Death Guard terminator and Plague Marine kits, Blood Slaughterer, Ork Mega Dread, and a TON of vanilla Marine shoulder pads and guns, and they've all been the same resin (in feel, sanding, cutting, scraping.)
My Heirophant supports the statement that FW uses different resins.
Spoiler:
No, it's not a recast. The body is a cream coloured resin that is super light, but it's quite brittle. The other peices are the regular grey resin. One of the back legs weighs as much as the whole torso.
ph34r wrote: I like to be on the side of what makes the most sense.
A couple of us lol'd from that, sorry xD
LunaHound wrote:Me too, but my reason is simpler. Cuz its cheaper than actual GW termies xDDDDDDDDDDD
You think so?
FW terminators: $58 USD, plus a mandatory 15% "feth you" shipping cost regardless of actual packaging costs, for a grand total of $68 for awful terminators that look worse than the normal, don't come with options, and do not even have poseable midsections.
Citadel terminators: $50 USD, minus up to 25% off standard from online resellers, plus easily accessible free shipping, for a grand total of $37.5 for terminators that aren't made of crap material and actually come with weapons options.
He COULD be referring to Australia, y'know. And the FW termies DO have poseable midsections; you would've sene that if you'd looked at OP's pics. Speaking of which, that looked like very little work to me, I could have those cleaned-up and good to go in no time.
-Loki- wrote:
Lolcanoe wrote:
...Finecast models aren't resin models? And Finecast is the name of the brand, not the resin type. And Forgeworld uses different resins for different models, just whatever seems to work best, hence the lack of consistency of color. Perhaps this is why GW has so many problems, trying to force the same type of resin to fulfill so many different roles?
I was hoping for some sarcasm in my internet voice with that one. As for FW using different resin for different stuff, I've done 2 Warhounds, a Dreadclaw, Nurgle Daemon Prince and Herald, Death Guard terminator and Plague Marine kits, Blood Slaughterer, Ork Mega Dread, and a TON of vanilla Marine shoulder pads and guns, and they've all been the same resin (in feel, sanding, cutting, scraping.)
My Heirophant supports the statement that FW uses different resins.
Spoiler:
No, it's not a recast. The body is a cream coloured resin that is super light, but it's quite brittle. The other peices are the regular grey resin. One of the back legs weighs as much as the whole torso.
FW experiment with different resins all the time.
The Heirrophant is an EXCELLENT example, thank you for the photo!
Forge World Facebook page wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
Guess the trials aren't over yet.
I'm not sure how you got "trials aren't over yet" from "Finecast resin is not Forge World Resin."
I think its semantic; whether it is or isn't Finecast, its a similar enough resin to have the same problems as Finecast to a similar degree.
I tire of these fine cast threads. I think we're done kicking the dead horse. Personally, I've had just as many issues with Fine Cast as I've had with metal. I've had 2 miscasts from each. If you have a problem, call GW's Customer Service rather than bitch and moan about it on a forum. At least you'll have something to show for it at the end of the day.
ph34r wrote: I like to be on the side of what makes the most sense.
A couple of us lol'd from that, sorry xD
LunaHound wrote:Me too, but my reason is simpler. Cuz its cheaper than actual GW termies xDDDDDDDDDDD
You think so?
FW terminators: $58 USD, plus a mandatory 15% "feth you" shipping cost regardless of actual packaging costs, for a grand total of $68 for awful terminators that look worse than the normal, don't come with options, and do not even have poseable midsections.
Citadel terminators: $50 USD, minus up to 25% off standard from online resellers, plus easily accessible free shipping, for a grand total of $37.5 for terminators that aren't made of crap material and actually come with weapons options.
If you're going to go this route to compare prices, I can also use a recaster listed on eBay to make these FW Terminators and I'll be able to get them for roughly the same price as the GW terminators above. So why don't we just compare apples to apples. The MSRP of each is $58 for the FW ones and $50 for the GW ones. Thats a savings of $8!
Maybe a mod should lock this thread as there is no news or rumor in this thread that is being discussed.
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Hulkster wrote:I find it amusing that the alternative sources for forgeworld offer prices at a fraction of the cost and now have arguably better quality.
Just my two cents, Brother.
Thats because they're recasters. You can find them all over eBay. Just search forgeworld and pretty much anyone from outside of the UK and US is a recaster. Especially when the price is ~ half of FW.
carmachu wrote:well, there goes my order that I was planning for a conversion.
Same here.
OP just saved me a LOT of money. I was going to buy the new Minotaurs characters, the new Termies, Chaos Decimator and a Contemptor. However, if the FW is now going to be as crappy as the GW Finecast (which I refuse to buy) then Ill just pass on all FW stuff.
Not all models are being put on sprues yet. I got my Molock in and he was in a standard little baggy with the standard little Forgeworld nubs on the bottom.
The casting was good on it as well, no issues that I can see.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Does Ford replace your F-150 without even seeing the one you bought? Do you keep the one you bought? If it's easier to replace a single part on the truck do they ship you out the whole truck anyway?
GW does.
GW does this due to packaging issues not as good customer service. And yes....after enough issues Ford will replace your truck by law in most states in the US due to the lemon law or give you your money back.
Kepora wrote:How do you know it's the resin and not GW's process of casting? The way things are casted makes ALL the difference; as for the resin itself, it's a model-builder's dream when the process of casting it is done properly.
I lol'd hard at this. Finecast a model-builder's dream? You have to be incredibly careful when cleaning it up or risk losing detail, it snaps sometimes seemingly on its own accord, and can not be stripped. Finecast is both so soft that it has trouble standing up under its own weight on certain models, and also brittle at the same time. It is not near the same quality of resin as I have seen on the few FW pieces I've handled or the PP or Spartan games stuff I own.
Fishboy wrote:And yes....after enough issues Ford will replace your truck by law in most states in the US due to the lemon law or give you your money back.
Ford would never allow a truck with visible holes pockmarked throughout it to leave its factory. Everyone keeps talking up how great GW customer service is because they will send you a replacement. Part of good customer service is selling me a good item to begin with. Having the decency to have some form of quality control in place to save your customers the trouble of having to wait for a replacement in the mail is a cornerstone of good customer service. In this regard GW fails miserably.
Father Gabe wrote:
Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store? Come on people its been a year since Finecast has been released, GW replaces any problems free of charge if you cant fix it yourself. Can we not find something else to rant and rampage about?
Interesting comparison. Now, let me ask you this -
Did the clothing company assure you that the product you were buying was the best clothing on Earth, and rant and rave about its quality?
And then, when you realized your clothing was full of holes, and you tried to return it, were you given either more clothing with holes in it, or told that the clothing you bought passed their quality control?
And did that clothing company tell you to fix the problem on your own, and then try to sell you an overpriced sowing kit?
And you're telling me you'd have no problem with that?
You're absolutely right that it's been a year after Finecast's release - and if they still can't be bothered to fix the problem with it, what does that say about them as a company? And what does that say about you, as a compliant customer?
Ok, I just woke up so it is way to early to try to decifer what your asking here but I will get to it later. Before I made my earlier post I should have asked does the original poster have confirmation that Forge World is switiching only to Finecast type resin? That they ever said what type(s) of resin they use? Perhaps that is where this thread should have started with something saying its possible they switch to the finecast resin. Unless you have a factual way of determining it is the finecast resin; they have switch to this resin; etc.
I bring that up because I received the two Minotaur Chapter characters yesterday and I will tell you right now, they are not the same as finecast resin. Oh and these two models are freakin awesome btw.
Oh Im awake now and read the response. Heres my answers:
1. I dont know if they promised, I just buy and if its good its good. If it is bad I take steps to get it corrected (ie return for clothing, model if it is a hobby item).
2. Everytime I returned Ive never been dissatisfied with the company fix.
3. No the company never told me to fix it on my own (I should have pointed that out earlier), however, playing with toy soliders in a hobby environment I understand that I have to prep my models before I build/paint/play with them soooooo, I expect there to be "fixing" at times.
4. Currently (after 23 years of hobbying) I am quite alright with it.
So, after taking a break from my continued discussion I will get back on track. I cant vouch for Forgeworld quality control or their claims of such. Perhaps someone could put up a link to it? That might help win/lose some arguements here. I for one have had my ups and downs with Finecast and Forgeworld but I love the hobby, love the game and love the fact that no one company does it on the level GW does it (dont start thread on Privateer Press because company/production/stock/retail store wise they are light years behind GW). If you feel you must stop buying from Forge World I would ask think twice, give it a chance...if you still decide to then yay for me! I dont have to worry if they will have product in stock
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Hulkster wrote:Trying to say it without saying it, but the recasters are making higher quality figures. Thats a really, really sad statement.
Here is a note about recaster quality. Its a couple guys, producing a couple models at the time.
Ive toured the GW factory store and saw the process, they make them in the HUNDREDS at a time. No I dont have pictures, cameras not allowed because they were working on a project when I was there so I couldnt snap photos.
Forge World Facebook page wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
I guess my question is, if they tried the new material and found it by their own judgement unsatisfactory, why did they sell it to a customer anyway?
Forge World Facebook page wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
I guess my question is, if they tried the new material and found it by their own judgement unsatisfactory, why did they sell it to a customer anyway?
Probably for the same reason GW continues selling finecast even though it is obviously unsatisfactory.
Forge World Facebook page wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
I guess my question is, if they tried the new material and found it by their own judgement unsatisfactory, why did they sell it to a customer anyway?
Now this is what Im talking about. Forge World quotes. This is a situation that I would call them and say "look dude, this is what I ordered, this is what I got and its problems. I want this fixed" "oh and since your Facebook pages says " This and that" then I want one that is not finecast. Case solved. Thanks for finding that quote, thats awesome.
so let me get this straight. if i buy a finecast model and it is miscast, i can call and get a replacement. If that replacement is bad then call I again and get another one. Well it seems to me that i should do this every time. This way i even if I have to fix models THAT SHOULD BE FLAWLESS THE FIRST TIME i am getting three for the price of one. So it seems to me if I call in every time I buy finecast and get three models this might justify the ridiculous cost of this sub par crap finecast!!!!!
battlematt wrote:so let me get this straight. if i buy a finecast model and it is miscast, i can call and get a replacement. If that replacement is bad then call I again and get another one. Well it seems to me that i should do this every time. This way i even if I have to fix models THAT SHOULD BE FLAWLESS THE FIRST TIME i am getting three for the price of one. So it seems to me if I call in every time I buy finecast and get three models this might justify the ridiculous cost of this sub par crap finecast!!!!!
Well, no. You have to send it back or show proof that it is damaged.
I can't believe this is just coming up here in the past two days.
Bols had some thing on this last month, the Freeboota forum had some thing about it over a month before that.
The first models that were seen were the new Space marine Vehicle crew drivers...
Different resin type same packaging...
And I've got tons of FW models that have used mutiple different types of resin.
battlematt wrote:so let me get this straight. if i buy a finecast model and it is miscast, i can call and get a replacement. If that replacement is bad then call I again and get another one. Well it seems to me that i should do this every time. This way i even if I have to fix models THAT SHOULD BE FLAWLESS THE FIRST TIME i am getting three for the price of one. So it seems to me if I call in every time I buy finecast and get three models this might justify the ridiculous cost of this sub par crap finecast!!!!!
Well, no. You have to send it back or show proof that it is damaged.
You do not have to send it back the majority of the time.
They will settle for pictures in almost every case; and if it's a known flaw that existed in both the metal AND Finecast versions--they might not even want pictures. The two Finecast Vlad von Carsteins I went through, they didn't even want photographic evidence. Just a verbal description of the flaws and the batch #.
Father Gabe wrote:Now this is what Im talking about. Forge World quotes. This is a situation that I would call them and say "look dude, this is what I ordered, this is what I got and its problems. I want this fixed" "oh and since your Facebook pages says " This and that" then I want one that is not finecast. Case solved. Thanks for finding that quote, thats awesome.
Please read the quote again., Father Gabe.
Forge World wrote:Finecast resin is not Forge World resin. While both are a two-part resin mix, Finecast with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of our smaller kits such as heavy weapons teams. The customers in question have probably just received one of these kits.
Forge World specifically noted that the Finecast resin mix with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of their heavy weapons teams.
That means that the casting techniques were trialed on the smaller kits--hence why we've been seeing some DKOK teams on sprues v. pour blocks.
NAVARRO wrote:So wait these stupid expensive models that are sold as the uber thing since sliced bread are errrr trials?
Why throw away the models that they deem unfit, when they can simply sell them to us? Then when we need to return them, we feel all warm and fuzzy about how easy the customer service phone experience was.
ph34r wrote:FW terminators: $58 USD, plus a mandatory 15% "feth you" shipping cost regardless of actual packaging costs, for a grand total of $68 for awful terminators that look worse than the normal, don't come with options, and do not even have poseable midsections.
Citadel terminators: $50 USD, minus up to 25% off standard from online resellers, plus easily accessible free shipping, for a grand total of $37.5 for terminators that aren't made of crap material and actually come with weapons options.
If you're going to go this route to compare prices, I can also use a recaster listed on eBay to make these FW Terminators and I'll be able to get them for roughly the same price as the GW terminators above. So why don't we just compare apples to apples. The MSRP of each is $58 for the FW ones and $50 for the GW ones. Thats a savings of $8!
Maybe a mod should lock this thread as there is no news or rumor in this thread that is being discussed.
Uhhh... you think that an illegal FW recaster on eBay and an online store that buys all their products through GW are "apples to apples" comparisons? What.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:Damn, I was just going to order those termies this weekend. not so sure now.
New sets can have problems. If you have issues, you just contact them and they will replace it.
Or spend your money on someone else that makes a quality product and doesn't view their customers as part of "QC Team."
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Father Gabe wrote:
Let me ask this. If you go to a store to buy clothes and you get home and find there is a rip in it, do you ban buying from the store?
You bet your ass I do, and tell everyone I can how bad they suck. Ain't being a consumer grand?
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infinite_array wrote:
Salacious Greed wrote:
Now, when we say that GW has a great Customer Service department, they do.
Gah. I know I'm going to catch flak for this, but screw it. I disgree.
How does GW have great customer service? They sell you a broken/poorly made item. You ask for a better version of what you bought. GW complies.
That's what every other company does. If I go and buy an iPod, or a Ford, or a Dell, and upon receiving it there's something wrong with it, it's not some sort of miracle that the company will replace it!
Indeed.
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marv335 wrote:
Agamemnon2 wrote:Certainly nothing like the apocryphal Valkyries with one side half a centimeter longer than the other.
I had one of those Valkyries, only in my case, the cabin roof was 1/2" thicker on one side than the other.
That said, it's not stopped my buying FW, and I will be buying those Terminators for my upcoming Mentor Legion project.
Forge World has good customer service in that they don't generally require you to ship back miscast parts. This is separate from their QC, which is terrible, and how good they are as a product in all, which weighs the customer service against the QC and comes up with a value known only to you, based upon your tolerance for shenanigans.
Anyway, on-topic, those pictures don't look at all like Finecast. There is none of the characteristic bubbling towards the bottom. They just look like normal sprues similar to what my Tomb Stalker, Boarding Marine, etc etc arrived on.
carmachu wrote:well, there goes my order that I was planning for a conversion.
Same here.
OP just saved me a LOT of money. I was going to buy the new Minotaurs characters, the new Termies, Chaos Decimator and a Contemptor. However, if the FW is now going to be as crappy as the GW Finecast (which I refuse to buy) then Ill just pass on all FW stuff.
THIS is why these threads are dangerous. FORGEWORLD. IS NOT. CHANGING. TO FINECAST.
Dabansheedude wrote:I'm sorry for you but happy for me now i am thinking twice about buying two boxes of these for a deathwing army!
See my above quote.
Chowderhead wrote:
Charax wrote:judging by the pics in this thread, we're nearing the point where the chinese recasters will have better QC than Forgeworld
Oh yes, because one person's bad model means that all of FW is like this. Up is also down, and I'm actually a snail that learned to type.
NAVARRO wrote:So wait these stupid expensive models that are sold as the uber thing since sliced bread are errrr trials?
They are trials of a new sprue style, not any new resin (See: Finecast) compound. No more, no less.
FINALLY someone with some damn sense in their head!
Ouze wrote:Forge World has good customer service in that they don't generally require you to ship back miscast parts. This is separate from their QC, which is terrible, and how good they are as a product in all, which weighs the customer service against the QC and comes up with a value known only to you, based upon your tolerance for shenanigans.
Anyway, on-topic, those pictures don't look at all like Finecast. There is none of the characteristic bubbling towards the bottom. They just look like normal sprues similar to what my Tomb Stalker, Boarding Marine, etc etc arrived on.
Quoted for truth.
Can we get an admin to please close this thread, but witha post that enforces the point that Forgeworld is NOT changing?
Kanluwen wrote:[Forge World specifically noted that the Finecast resin mix with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of their heavy weapons teams.
That means that the casting techniques were trialed on the smaller kits--hence why we've been seeing some DKOK teams on sprues v. pour blocks.
Good clarification. That was a distinction I missed earlier.
Kepora wrote:THIS is why these threads are dangerous.
It's only "dangerous" if the rumor is actually true. Smart people will keep reading, realize that FW isn't necessarily switching, and will go on about their business as normal. If they were switching to Finecast then I feel I have the right to know, so as to avoid wasting more of my money on that pock-marked, miscast garbage that GW is making itself well known for. So it's only "dangerous" in that case if you're a fanboy in shining white armor that wants people to remain blind and ignorant, just like GW wants all their customers to be, so they'll keep supporting the company when they really don't deserve the support. I have every right to take my money elsewhere if a company feels like sacrificing quality in the name of profit and I end up getting burned as a result. Finecast is one such burn, one that cost me a lot of money I'll never get back, and so I want to know if FW is considering doing the same so I can cease buying their product as well. More information is never dangerous for a customer, which is why I imagine this thread hasn't been locked yet.
In any case there's really no need for you to come in here and keep demanding that the site mods close the thread, especially when it would be so much easier for you to just STOP READING AND POSTING IN THE THREAD. Either report the thread and go on your way or just ignore it altogether, and let the mods do their jobs. It's clear, to me at least, that the mods don't think this thread is worthy of being shut down yet or it probably already would be, since I imagine someone is probably already aware and keeping an eye on it.
Forge World wrote:"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin, and so we are not operating some sort of scam as you imply in your e-mail, nor are we misrepresenting our products. As we are perhaps the largest single manufacturer of resin models in the world, it should be unsurprising that the Citadel decision to begin using similar materials a certain amount of consultancy with ourselves.
"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release. What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.
"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical. This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast." - Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012
No news, no rumors that have not been debunked, nothing more than another bash finecast thread at this point. I've seen numerous threads locked for less, so why is this open?
This makes me so freakin pissed. GW is without question the stupidest company on this planet. I play death korps, actually, I'm just starting a death korps. This makes me really worried about the future of DKOK
iflywhirlybirds wrote:This makes me so freakin pissed. GW is without question the stupidest company on this planet. I play death korps, actually, I'm just starting a death korps. This makes me really worried about the future of DKOK
Relax all indications seem to indicate that they aren't making the switch, though they tried it, and it's apparently entirely possible a few people got some FW in finecast.
That said, I find the truly telling things 1) how quickly they seem to want to distance themselves from the material and 2) that they found it inadequate.
Wow, I don't check the forum for a day and boom 5 pages!
I have to make clear some things:
A) I never said that FW uses Finecast resin. I said, IT FEELS like Finecast.
B) I saw a lot of people claiming that they will never buy from FW again. All I have to say is that so far I had ZERO problems with their products and when I did I found out the their CS is even more excellent than the minis they sell.
C) So far, this is the only kit I have come across that uses this new resin. The Minotaur characters (which I also bought) are from the old type one.
D) Whether some people like it or not, the new resin they used on these Termies is TERRIBLE! In fact, today I went through all the rest of my models and at the end I had a photo portfolio of miscasts. I have already contacted FW and I am sure that the problem will be addressed.
E) My OP was just to inform you for the new development (Finecast or not, I don't really care, what I care is that this resin is a really bad medium for minis). If you want to use it as an excuse to start a FW-is-as-bad-as-GW campaign, please, don't!
Yes, this time I got extremely disappointed with my purchase from FW, but sh*t happen even in the best families. Plus, I have faith (based on my past experience) in their excellent CS.
Forge World wrote:"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin
Note that, in this sentence, Forgeworld does not deny using the same type of resin or casting method that GW uses. They deny that they're using the "Finecast" brand.
Forge World wrote:"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release.
Again, they're not disclaiming the use of the same type of resin or casting method.
Forge World wrote:What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.
In fact, Forge World admits that they do use the same resin that GW uses for Finecast for some parts.
Forge World wrote:"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical.
And again, a careful reading shows that Forge World is not disclaiming the use of Citadel's spin-casting method.
Forge World wrote:This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast." - Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012
And again, they're not discussing whether they use Finecast methods and materials or not. Simply noting that Finecast (the trademarked label) is not being used. ----------
Does Forge World make "Finecast" models? No, quite clearly they don't. That is a registered trademark of Games Workshop and limited to Citadel brand miniatures. This doesn't really mean anything.
Does Forge World use the same type of resin that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? Yes. It is "one that [Forge World has] used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate."
Does Forge World use the same manufacturing method that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? This is unclear. To quote Forge World: "The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago." Have they adopted it? No idea.
Here's another quote that Kanluwen provided:
[Forge World specifically noted that the Finecast resin mix with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of their heavy weapons teams.
Notice that the Finecast resin isn't suitable for most of the FW line. This does not mean "all."
Is Forge World switching to Finecast? No. But they are using the resin, and may be using the method, for some of their models. The OP certainly could have received a model produced using the same material and methods of Finecast.
Ouze wrote:
Anyway, on-topic, those pictures don't look at all like Finecast. There is none of the characteristic bubbling towards the bottom. They just look like normal sprues similar to what my Tomb Stalker, Boarding Marine, etc etc arrived on.
My 4 Boarding Marines did not arrive in sprues similar to the Tartaros Termies. And the reason I thought it was Finecast, is that it feels equally bad. There are some things you can't tell from pictures. Believe me.
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biccat wrote: The OP certainly could have received a model produced using the same material and methods of Finecast.
Amen. Exactly the point I was trying to make with my OP.
As for the "new" resin, I found that it is much softer, it has much more "flex" and a rubbery feeling, which appears to have a detrimental effect to the formation of sharp details and of straight lines and flat surfaces. You can call it whatever name you want, but it is bad. Really, really bad. I am sure though that FW will figure this out and address the problem.
Forge World wrote:"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin
Note that, in this sentence, Forgeworld does not deny using the same type of resin or casting method that GW uses. They deny that they're using the "Finecast" brand.
Forge World wrote:"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release.
Again, they're not disclaiming the use of the same type of resin or casting method.
Forge World wrote:What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.
In fact, Forge World admits that they do use the same resin that GW uses for Finecast for some parts.
Forge World wrote:"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical.
And again, a careful reading shows that Forge World is not disclaiming the use of Citadel's spin-casting method.
Forge World wrote:This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast." - Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012
And again, they're not discussing whether they use Finecast methods and materials or not. Simply noting that Finecast (the trademarked label) is not being used.
----------
Does Forge World make "Finecast" models? No, quite clearly they don't. That is a registered trademark of Games Workshop and limited to Citadel brand miniatures. This doesn't really mean anything.
Does Forge World use the same type of resin that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? Yes. It is "one that [Forge World has] used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate."
Does Forge World use the same manufacturing method that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? This is unclear. To quote Forge World: "The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago." Have they adopted it? No idea.
Here's another quote that Kanluwen provided:
[Forge World specifically noted that the Finecast resin mix with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of their heavy weapons teams.
Notice that the Finecast resin isn't suitable for most of the FW line. This does not mean "all."
Is Forge World switching to Finecast? No. But they are using the resin, and may be using the method, for some of their models. The OP certainly could have received a model produced using the same material and methods of Finecast.
Forge World wrote:"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin
Note that, in this sentence, Forgeworld does not deny using the same type of resin or casting method that GW uses. They deny that they're using the "Finecast" brand.
Forge World wrote:"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release.
Again, they're not disclaiming the use of the same type of resin or casting method.
Forge World wrote:What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.
In fact, Forge World admits that they do use the same resin that GW uses for Finecast for some parts.
Forge World wrote:"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical.
And again, a careful reading shows that Forge World is not disclaiming the use of Citadel's spin-casting method.
Forge World wrote:This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast." - Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012
And again, they're not discussing whether they use Finecast methods and materials or not. Simply noting that Finecast (the trademarked label) is not being used.
----------
Does Forge World make "Finecast" models? No, quite clearly they don't. That is a registered trademark of Games Workshop and limited to Citadel brand miniatures. This doesn't really mean anything.
Does Forge World use the same type of resin that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? Yes. It is "one that [Forge World has] used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate."
Does Forge World use the same manufacturing method that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? This is unclear. To quote Forge World: "The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago." Have they adopted it? No idea.
Here's another quote that Kanluwen provided:
[Forge World specifically noted that the Finecast resin mix with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of their heavy weapons teams.
Notice that the Finecast resin isn't suitable for most of the FW line. This does not mean "all."
Is Forge World switching to Finecast? No. But they are using the resin, and may be using the method, for some of their models. The OP certainly could have received a model produced using the same material and methods of Finecast.
praetor24, don't try to distance yourself from your very (mis)leading first post now that it has caused a gakstorm. You chose to title it in a way that clearly leads everyone to question/think "Is FW using Finecast?".
You could have titled it "FW using new resin?" and not mentioned finecast at all, but you did. Don't try to run away from that now.
praetor24 wrote:Wow, I don't check the forum for a day and boom 5 pages!
I have to make clear some things:
A) I never said that FW uses Finecast resin. I said, IT FEELS like Finecast.
praetor24 wrote:Today I got at the mail the new Tartaros Terminators kit and I was shocked to discover that instead of the resin that FW used for its other kits, the models in this one were made from finecast.
You did declare your FW models to be made from finecast. In the leading sentence of this thread.
I've had many Finecast mis-casts. Farseer's, Dark Reapers, Banshees. Most directly related to the face, and for my Farseer's I've never gotten a properly molded face. Just started buying Metal ones and using the heads. It's rather disappointing.
However, GW has never blinked an eye at sending me an entirely new box. Even if I bought it from Sci-Fi city or something, as long as I call and offer a picture of the issue they have always followed through and send me a new box without asking for the old box back. This makes it rather interesting. You have some mis-molded units that take some modding, but now you got double the amount you intended. Good enough for me.
I don't see why they switched to Resin though IMHO. I don't think the detail it offers is worth the constant issues/durability problems it has. As for FW, I have only ordered DKoK from them which I ended up returning. They had some mild issues, and I wasn't impressed enough to pay the absorbent price for the quality I got.
Keep telling us that, when as recent as April aand March, we have purchased and received items that
-material is fc
-looks like fc
-packed like fc
but lets not call it fc since it's from fw Are we claiming ALL fw are going to be made the same way a finecast? feth no.
Yet that does not spell "fw wont ever use fc casting methods again"
Keep telling us that, when as recent as April aand March, we have purchased and received items that -material is fc Wrong! -looks like fc Wrong again! -packed like fc Oh my god! Two things look alike! They're obviously the same thing! Sound the alarm! Twins are a Space Time Continuum anomaly!
but lets not call it fc since it's from fw
Let's not call it Finecast because it's from Forgeworld.
Because OP and Forge World and every single god damn consumer who bought this said it's not Finecast.
SickSix wrote:praetor24, don't try to distance yourself from your very (mis)leading first post now that it has caused a gakstorm. You chose to title it in a way that clearly leads everyone to question/think "Is FW using Finecast?".
You could have titled it "FW using new resin?" and not mentioned finecast at all, but you did. Don't try to run away from that now.
praetor24 wrote:Wow, I don't check the forum for a day and boom 5 pages!
I have to make clear some things:
A) I never said that FW uses Finecast resin. I said, IT FEELS like Finecast.
praetor24 wrote:Today I got at the mail the new Tartaros Terminators kit and I was shocked to discover that instead of the resin that FW used for its other kits, the models in this one were made from finecast.
You did declare your FW models to be made from finecast. In the leading sentence of this thread.
Distance myself? Run away from what? Like I feel guilty what for exactly? That a couple of people started feeling overexcited and unleashed the kraken? Give me a break dude. It's funny how the Internet turns some people into attorneys and public persecutors
As for the title, yes I used finecast BUT there is a question mark (?). I would still use it. You know why? Because it feels like finecast resin and I thought that it was/is the same. If next time that something as important as this arises you don't want to know, because you are unable to handle the information like a grown-up, then I am sorry but stop reading the fora. There are people that are interested in getting news that concern their hobby.
Because OP and Forge World and every single god damn consumer who bought this said it's not Finecast.
Oh where? I must have missed this?
praetor24 wrote:A) I never said that FW uses Finecast resin. I said, IT FEELS like Finecast.
To be accurate though at my OP, I wrote:
Today I got at the mail the new Tartaros Terminators kit and I was shocked to discover that instead of the resin that FW used for its other kits, the models in this one were made from finecast
I can't say I am thrilled about the change, especially since the new material resembles soft plastic (softer than GW's plastic) and it is slightly better quality than the Finecast casts .
A contradiction of myself in the very same post that shows that I was confused about the true nature of the casting medium (and this is why the [?] at the title of the thread). As I found out later on and by reading this thread "Finecast" is a brand name, not a type of resin. So, technically the minis I held in my hands should not be associated with the Finecast minis. What remains as a fact is that these minis were badly cast and their medium of low quality, or better not suitable for these minis. Very similar to Finecast resin.
So, should I not share this info with you, because some people cannot handle it and start raging about Finecast and "dangerous threads"? Jesus, some people in here are in dire need of anger management lessons.
praetor24 wrote:
Today I got at the mail the new Tartaros Terminators kit and I was shocked to discover that instead of the resin that FW used for its other kits, the models in this one were made from finecast. The models were in sprues similar to the finecast sprues,
I don't care either way, but he really DID say his new models are made of "Finecast".
praetor24 wrote: Today I got at the mail the new Tartaros Terminators kit and I was shocked to discover that instead of the resin that FW used for its other kits, the models in this one were made from finecast. The models were in sprues similar to the finecast sprues,
I don't care either way, but he really DID say his new models are made of "Finecast".
Yep. You said it, you have to deal with it.
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ÆΞØИ wrote:Yet, I also bought daemonsmith
Yes. It has been stated that FW is trying out new Molding sprues.
Finecast like sprues does not equal Finecast. If you had bad flash, it's because FW QC is some of the worst I've ever seen. Not because they use FC.
Kepora wrote:Can we get an admin to please close this thread, but witha post that enforces the point that Forgeworld is NOT changing?
Yes. Ve must have SILENCE!!! Ve must not let ze people say ze things ve dislike! Heil GW! <Salute>
The discussion must continue for one very simple reason: This thread shows GW just how reviled one of their products is compared to another. That should tell them something. I know if people were threatening to boycott my company just because of a rumor that one of my lines was being produced similarly to another line, I'd investigate the offending like ASAP.
Personally I've given up on Warhammer because of GW's screwy practices, but theoretically speaking I could consider buying things from Forgeworld just for the sake of painting them (I liked the basilisk and I have often considered getting a Forgeworld Tau BFG fleet) when I get the money. Forgeworld switching to finecast would guarantee they never see another dime from me.
praetor24 wrote:So, should I not share this info with you, because some people cannot handle it and start raging about Finecast and "dangerous threads"? Jesus, some people in here are in dire need of anger management lessons.
It could have been way worse. You could have mentioned "Matt Ward"
Finecast like sprues does not equal Finecast. If you had bad flash, it's because FW QC is some of the worst I've ever seen. Not because they use FC.
Dude I have been purchasing forge world products for nearly 10 fething years.
I wouldn't even relate it to fc if the similarity was only due to it having a sprue.
The material like op mentioned is exactly like fc. The only reason Im not claiming it to be fc is there are no lab test done.
Who even fething care about bad flash? Why is it even relevant? The daemonsmith I received were perfect just for the record.
Chowderhead wrote:
I wouldn't even relate it to fc if the similarity was only due to it having a sprue.
The material like op mentioned is exactly like fc. The only reason Im not claiming it to be fc is there are no lab test done.
If someone has a lab or something, I can send him over the pieces to check them out. So, that this nerdragestorm might cease.
But before I drop it, I have to say that it is very similar to FC. Make what you want out of it. I am out!
Kepora wrote:Can we get an admin to please close this thread, but witha post that enforces the point that Forgeworld is NOT changing?
Yes. Ve must have SILENCE!!! Ve must not let ze people say ze things ve dislike! Heil GW!
I am so dumbstruck I can't say anything.
Let's just have this stand by itself so we can all bask in it's insanity.
Thank you. That's far more eloquent than I would have put it. Isn't it funny that I'ma "GW Fanboy" when I'm trying to counter outright anti-GW statements with just simple logic and the facts, as well as statements released from Forgeworld itself?
I don't want this thread closed because it's "Anti-GW" (though it's drawing in the typical anti-GW/Anti-Finecast people it always does); I want it closed because that kind of attention-whoring titling/claiming (stuff like "Forgeworld switching to Finecast") is toxic to the community as a whole, both because it's untrue and it always devolves into the same garbage. It's like....I don't even know how to put it.
ÆΞØИ wrote:The material like op mentioned is exactly like fc.
I would expect to be like FC as well, seeing as how it is also resin. You know, what FC is.
The only reason Im not claiming it to be fc is there are no lab test done.
You won't believe it's not FC unless lab tests are done?
preator24 said already it wasn't. So drop it.
I'm dropping it right here. Gonna go watch The Lion King. Amazing movie.
Someone who buys FW items for about ten years would seem perfectly capable of noticing differences about the material don't you think?
Yet you want to argue with them.
Whether it actually is exactly the same as "Finecast" or not, there appears to be something different about the resin that has been arriving at people's doorsteps.
Kepora wrote:Can we get an admin to please close this thread, but witha post that enforces the point that Forgeworld is NOT changing?
Yes. Ve must have SILENCE!!! Ve must not let ze people say ze things ve dislike! Heil GW! <Salute>
The discussion must continue for one very simple reason: This thread shows GW just how reviled one of their products is compared to another. That should tell them something. I know if people were threatening to boycott my company just because of a rumor that one of my lines was being produced similarly to another line, I'd investigate the offending like ASAP.
Personally I've given up on Warhammer because of GW's screwy practices, but theoretically speaking I could consider buying things from Forgeworld just for the sake of painting them (I liked the basilisk and I have often considered getting a Forgeworld Tau BFG fleet) when I get the money. Forgeworld switching to finecast would guarantee they never see another dime from me.
You are operating under the delusion that GW reads this website, let alone this thread and then assume they care what random internet guys #6743291 thinks. If you want GW to know what you think, write them a letter directly.
This thread is not about GW, it is about FW, and the fact that it has been made clear FW is not using Finecast, any posts about GW or their company policies or products are irrelevant to the thread.
Kepora wrote:Can we get an admin to please close this thread, but witha post that enforces the point that Forgeworld is NOT changing?
Yes. Ve must have SILENCE!!! Ve must not let ze people say ze things ve dislike! Heil GW! <Salute>
The discussion must continue for one very simple reason: This thread shows GW just how reviled one of their products is compared to another. That should tell them something. I know if people were threatening to boycott my company just because of a rumor that one of my lines was being produced similarly to another line, I'd investigate the offending like ASAP.
Personally I've given up on Warhammer because of GW's screwy practices, but theoretically speaking I could consider buying things from Forgeworld just for the sake of painting them (I liked the basilisk and I have often considered getting a Forgeworld Tau BFG fleet) when I get the money. Forgeworld switching to finecast would guarantee they never see another dime from me.
You are operating under the delusion that GW reads this website, let alone this thread and then assume they care what random internet guys #6743291 thinks. If you want GW to know what you think, write them a letter directly.
This thread is not about GW, it is about FW, and the fact that it has been made clear FW is not using Finecast, any posts about GW or their company policies or products are irrelevant to the thread.
THANK YOU! It's like these guys whom supposedly don't buy GW or FW have nothing better to do than insult people who do buy GW/FW products, and just fling more proverbial crap at the buyers when tsiad buyers gouge enormous holes in the crap throwers' arguments...
This thread confuses me. The idea that forge world finecast means GW finecast QC is more a jump to conclusions to me. One bad forgeworld cast isn't realy proof to me, since Forgeworld always have had some QC issues that would crop up.
=/
Chowderhead wrote:
preator24 said already it wasn't. So drop it
Actually he didn't don't make gak up.
Like me, he aslo thinks the terminator resin feels no different to fc.
Yet we are humble to not claim it been fc due to no test done.
He also edited because he felt its not worth been flamed by rabid fans.
Ever noticed I never complained about the quality?
ÆΞØИ wrote:The material like op mentioned is exactly like fc.
I would expect to be like FC as well, seeing as how it is also resin. You know, what FC is.
The only reason Im not claiming it to be fc is there are no lab test done.
You won't believe it's not FC unless lab tests are done?
preator24 said already it wasn't. So drop it.
I'm dropping it right here. Gonna go watch The Lion King. Amazing movie.
Someone who buys FW items for about ten years would seem perfectly capable of noticing differences about the material don't you think?
Yet you want to argue with them.
Whether it actually is exactly the same as "Finecast" or not, there appears to be something different about the resin that has been arriving at people's doorsteps.
Speaking as someone who has been buying Forge World items for "about ten years", and has bought/handled multiple Finecast models:
The majority of the differences that people are claiming are not evidence of FW altering their resin formulations to match Finecast's. Take this thread for example.
The OP claimed that his models were Finecast because they had miscasts and were on a sprue.
That is evidence not of FW altering their resin formulations to match Finecast's, but of shoddy QC. Rather than contact FW, the poster chose to instead post about it on Dakka and claim that it is Finecast.
Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Cadaver wrote:made clear FW is not using Finecast.
So what are they using?
The resin is not like the previous resin (according to the people who have just received items), it feels similar to said other resin, it has tons of flash and last but not least many a bubblehole.
Let's call this "Forgecast" then, the cousin of "you-know-who"
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Do you?
According to you standards?
Sure. Why not.
Since they are both resin. Have you not see the bold part? There is a rather strong emphasis when he wrote that.
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Do you?
Weren't you watching The Lion King
I can't watch Mufasa's death without crying. So I'm not.
Even the audio makes me sad...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
ÆΞØИ wrote:
Chowderhead wrote:
ÆΞØИ wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Do you?
According to you standards?
Sure. Why not.
Since they are both resin.
There are many types of resin.
I can't say we're both the same thing because we're mammals, now can I?
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Do you?
Weren't you watching The Lion King
I can't watch Mufasa's death without crying. So I'm not.
Even the audio makes me sad...
So basically Mufasa's death is the same as "Finecast"
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Do you?
Weren't you watching The Lion King
I can't watch Mufasa's death without crying. So I'm not.
Even the audio makes me sad...
So basically Mufasa's death is the same as "Finecast"
Don't you dare compare Mufasa's death and Finecast!
Kanluwen wrote:Then we have the poster claiming that "FW and FC resin are nothing alike"...despite the fact that they are. The only major difference is in the nature of flexibility of the more fiddly parts. You'll mainly notice it in things like swords, spines, etc where in FW resin they will retain the bend that you put into them while heated--but FC's resin is more "springy" and it will return to its original shape.
Contradicting
That is unless in your book, flexibility doesn't clearly spell significant difference in the formula.
I consider "Alike" and "The Same In Every Way" two different things.
Do you?
Weren't you watching The Lion King
I can't watch Mufasa's death without crying. So I'm not.
Even the audio makes me sad...
So basically Mufasa's death is the same as "Finecast"
Don't you dare compare Mufasa's death and Finecast!
Finecast is much poorly executed!
Closer inspection of a freshly purchased "Finecast" miniature usually causes a feeling similar to having to watch Bambi's mother get shot... often 5 times in a row
Forge World wrote:"(...)To address your points, however, we'd like to point out that Forge World do not sell Finecast products; Finecast is a Citadel brand, not a specific type of resin
Note that, in this sentence, Forgeworld does not deny using the same type of resin or casting method that GW uses. They deny that they're using the "Finecast" brand.
Forge World wrote:"Forge World use a huge range of different types of resin and just as wide a range of casting methods depending on the kit in question. You'll note that the resin used for a Titan is very different for that used to produce solid resin scenery, or a smaller resin infantry model, or indeed the new range of hollow resin scenery that we're starting to release.
Again, they're not disclaiming the use of the same type of resin or casting method.
Forge World wrote:What you describe as 'Finecast resin' is simply a different mix, one that we've used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate.
In fact, Forge World admits that they do use the same resin that GW uses for Finecast for some parts.
Forge World wrote:"The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago; you rightly point out that the traditional drop-casting method is extremely time- and labour-intensive, the spin-casting method is just as involved but the quality checking is rather more critical.
And again, a careful reading shows that Forge World is not disclaiming the use of Citadel's spin-casting method.
Forge World wrote:This has obviously not been performed as stringently as it should have been, but as the Citadel and Forge World production teams are separate we're obviously unable to comment upon, or influence, the policies in place regarding Finecast." - Ead Brown, Customer Service Manager, Forge World, March 7, 2012
And again, they're not discussing whether they use Finecast methods and materials or not. Simply noting that Finecast (the trademarked label) is not being used.
----------
Does Forge World make "Finecast" models? No, quite clearly they don't. That is a registered trademark of Games Workshop and limited to Citadel brand miniatures. This doesn't really mean anything.
Does Forge World use the same type of resin that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? Yes. It is "one that [Forge World has] used for some time for smaller and more detailed models where appropriate."
Does Forge World use the same manufacturing method that Games Workshop uses for Finecast? This is unclear. To quote Forge World: "The centrifugal casting process used to produce the Citadel Finecast range is again something that Forge World began looking at some time ago." Have they adopted it? No idea.
Here's another quote that Kanluwen provided:
[Forge World specifically noted that the Finecast resin mix with its additional 'flex' isn't suitable for manufacturing most of the FW range, although many of the techniques were trialed on some of their heavy weapons teams.
Notice that the Finecast resin isn't suitable for most of the FW line. This does not mean "all."
Is Forge World switching to Finecast? No. But they are using the resin, and may be using the method, for some of their models. The OP certainly could have received a model produced using the same material and methods of Finecast.
Here's what I got from the email...
FW heavily imply that the resin mix used in 'Finecast' has actually been tested and used by FW well before this, and in fact, that there are probably quite a few FW products which use the exact same mix, and have done for some time. They then explain that the method of casting is also used by FW, but that it requires more rigorous quality control, and they are aware of this. And then they suggest that, since the entire Finecast process has been used for some time by FW, that the 'Finecast Problem' is most likely GW's QC (since FW have been using the exact same materials and process for ages without any more complaint than normal).
Seems very honest, without any deception intended or carried out. They infer that every step of the Finecast process is and has been used by FW for some time now. It's just that Citadel's QC isn't as good.
I certainly see no reason to be angry at FW for this, unless you're already biased.
How did this rumour gets started? I wonder if Forgeworld quality control is sinking to new lows, after all what other delimiter could there be except resin products vs notoriously miscast resin products.
Kanluwen wrote:
The majority of the differences that people are claiming are not evidence of FW altering their resin formulations to match Finecast's. Take this thread for example.
The OP claimed that his models were Finecast because they had miscasts and were on a sprue.
Wrong. Read my first post more closely. I said that they look like FC, because of the extra flex and consistency of the resin.
Cadaver wrote: If you want GW to know what you think, write them a letter directly.
Luckily, I don't care if GW knows what I think. I vote with my dollar, and finecast is an inferior product for a vastly inflated price. So it doesn't get my dollar. What I'm saying is not that I want GW to know what I think, GWshould want to know what its customers think. This thread conveys useful information. White knighting for GW and demanding that threads like this get closed doesn't serve the community.
This thread is not about GW, it is about FW, and the fact that it has been made clear FW is not using Finecast, any posts about GW or their company policies or products are irrelevant to the thread.
While it is clear that FW does not use the finecast process, it is also clear, to the OP at least, that the product he received resembled finecast. If this is the direction that FW is moving toward, (using a resin or casting method somewhat like finecast) then it is something that people should be aware of.
Cadaver wrote: If you want GW to know what you think, write them a letter directly.
Luckily, I don't care if GW knows what I think. I vote with my dollar, and finecast is an inferior product for a vastly inflated price. So it doesn't get my dollar. What I'm saying is not that I want GW to know what I think, GWshould want to know what its customers think. This thread conveys useful information. White knighting for GW and demanding that threads like this get closed doesn't serve the community.
This thread is not about GW, it is about FW, and the fact that it has been made clear FW is not using Finecast, any posts about GW or their company policies or products are irrelevant to the thread.
Forgeworld isGW.
I'm sure GW has a pretty good idea of what their customers think and how profitable Finecast has been for them. I'm sure they will adjust their practice if it proves to not be profitable.
This thread started with someone saying that FW was now using Finecast. Several people provided direct quotes from FW that is was not switching to 'Finecast." Those people get shouted down, called white knights and finally by you, compared to Nazis. So do us all a favor and don't pretend to care about "the community" when you mock those you disagree with with Nazi references. That is doesn't serve the community more than anything else in this thread.
Forgeworld is not Games Workshop. They have separate organization, employees, and products. They operate independently and for all intents and purposes are completely separate entities. I'm sure you are well aware of that, but being hyerbolic and ignoring facts hasn't stopped you so far, so why start now?
I have bought a lot of forgveworld over the years and during such time I have seen a vast variance of resin. They vary in hardness/flexabilaty, color and even size. I own 6 hazard suits bought over a two year timespan. One the resin is so brittle that he actually shattered where the mold resin was carefully being removed. Another one is suprisingly smaller in every respect. I also have two winged Tyrants where one is riddled with mold holes due to not enough pressure. I can cite a myrid of other examples but they all came before there was even a fincast.
So let's move to the post finecast launch items. The best comparison here is the four contemtors I have bought over the last year. Two are the regular body ones and two the relic pattern. All of the bodies are the same in color and consistancy (actully near flawless). The difference is in the arms. One of the twin lascannons is more flexable than the other. The two relic ones both have the assault cannons. The first one they were of same quality as the body. Now the second one (I just got him a week ago and have yet to assemble him) happens to have one arm in the usual fw bag we all have seen, where as the other is in a blister. I was/am excited to see this because the extra expense of packaging to me says they are looking for store stock possabilities.
To get to the point, forgeworld has had quality control issues since before gw coined finecast. Also there should be no assumption that on peice will be the same as the next. Lastly, none of this should deter you from buying some nice models from a company that has a great design team.
False. GW and FW are both owned by Citadel, but that does not make them the same company. That is like saying PizzaHut IS KFC or Taco Bell.
You need to take a closer look at GW's investor relations page. Citadel is a brand owned by Games Workshop PLC (traded under GAW.L on the London stock exchange). Forgeworld is just a division of GW. It is not a separate company.
I stand corrected on several issues. Not going to go into them cause it will drag on. However, as pointed out last page, how is this thread relating to rumor or news now? I realize its Good Friday and Easter Sunday is around the corner but there must be a Mod that isnt taking vacation right now that can close the thread.
I'm sure we've all learnt a lot here, possibly on levels that the standard human mind cannot really comprehend or understand.
But we will, no doubt, soon discover this thread having a powerful affect on both mind and body.
Distant future generations, once the smoke has cleared, the rubble has been swept away and hidden under a nearby rug and the bodies turned into fantastic new types of furniture and footwear, will look back at us, in our pomp and glory and wonder.
Will definitely be doing that
Just when I thought this thread was gonna get juicy. . .
And Finecast is the name of the brand, not the resin type. And Forgeworld uses different resins for different models, just whatever seems to work best, hence the lack of consistency of color. Perhaps this is why 
