You can't seem to go through any thread on this sight without someone whining about the Ultramarines. What's the deal? Are people so butt hurt that their favorites don't get as much fluff support? It's not like they're a dominant force on the tabletop.
Is it because they're the poster kids of 40k? Do these people have the same problem with Mickey Mouse or Bugs Bunny?
Please, someone help me understand this stupidity.
Matt Ward is not an Ultramarine. Hence, Ward hate projected on the Ultras is irrational. Why not cry about the Crimson Fists, Silver Skulls or the umpteen other chapters in that book. In the totality of the product line, the Space Marine codex is a tiny amount of Ultra fluff.
Zweischneid wrote:Which doesn't make sense, since Ward's Space Marine Codex favours Ultramarines far less than the previous McNeill/Haines Space Marine Codex did.
None of that particular brand of hate makes a ton of sense though.
Zweischneid wrote:Which doesn't make sense, since Ward's Space Marine Codex favours Ultramarines far less than the previous McNeill/Haines Space Marine Codex did.
None of that particular brand of hate makes a ton of sense though.
Sure it does. Whether projected on Ward or on Ultramarines, alot of it is born in the "special snowflake" / "geek hierarchy" syndrom of trying to see yourself as the nobler/better/more mature/more refined layer of the hobby crowd by portraying yourself as one "looking down" on some your fellows-in-40K (by any means necessary, especially the irrational).
AngryMarine wrote:Matt Ward is not an Ultramarine. Hence, Ward hate projected on the Ultras is irrational. Why not cry about the Crimson Fists, Silver Skulls or the umpteen other chapters in that book. In the totality of the product line, the Space Marine codex is a tiny amount of Ultra fluff.
1) Because they are poster poys therefore easier to hate.
2) The codex states that all chapters recognize marneous(sp?) Calgar (and therefore robuitte(sp?) Guilliman) as their spiritual liege and those that don't are abherrant.
3) Matt Ward wrote them
4) Calgar beats the Gak out of the Avatar of Khaine
5) Ward stated in an interview that all marines that all chapters want to be Ultramarines.
6) We do have a search button for a reason. this thread is made weekly.
Was going to write something about the quality of the previous post but then noticed the location. Can't pick on someone who's first language isn't english.
I hate that when GW don't have a chapter for an epic story, its always UM that they use. OPnce or twice where they are actually concerned, like an Ultramar Invasion or the Tau Empire, fine, but a bunch of Marines fly down umpteen hundred light yerars to fight Hive Fleets, Necrons and whatever else on the other side of the galaxy is moronic when other chapters are better positioned to do so.
To build on what nom said, I would like to mention a quick story in Feb's WD where Marneus Calgar takes on the Swarmlord of Kraken. He charges out of his Drop Pod, gives the Swarmlord the old 1-2. Swarmlord's out of it, Calgar standing triump[hantly over the alien corpse-Wait! Back up a minute. This is the same swarmlord that almost killed Marneus Calgar at the Battle for Maccragge, and outsmarted every strategy and tactic Papa Smurf came up with, somertimes even before Calgar had thought them through completely? The one that is respawned with the exact same memories, therefore next time he fights an enemy, he is better equipped to do so? He beats Calgar in round 1, but loses in round 2? If Ward didn't write that then my left butt cheek is a squat and the right one is Creed.
Also, though I know rules =/= fluff, Marneus Calgar, in game terms, has no chance against the Swarmlord.
pretre wrote:Was going to write something about the quality of the previous post but then noticed the location. Can't pick on someone who's first language isn't english.
English :O I thought i was speaking german
TheRobotLol wrote:Because Ward gives them horrible fluff and really said himself that almost ALL marines want to be just like them and have their 'Spiritual liege'
Nomsheep wrote:
2) The codex states that all chapters recognize Marnius Calgar (and therefore Guilliman) as their spiritual liege and those that don't are abherrant.
5) Ward stated in an interview that all marines that all chapters want to be Ultramarines.
All of these problems stem from Ward and not the chapter itself.
Whether projected on Ward or on Ultramarines, alot of it is born in the "special snowflake" / "geek hierarchy" syndrom of trying to see yourself as the nobler/better/more mature/more refined layer of the hobby crowd by portraying yourself as one "looking down" on some your fellows-in-40K (by any means necessary, especially the irrational).
That's ridiculous. My favorite (official) marines are the space wolves. Does that mean I regard myself as a greater viking than anyone else?
I think its how 'eavy metal as painted them in the past. Red bolters on a bright blue god awful looking marine. There is something wrong with that on every level. plus, birds gotta fly. Fish gotta swim, and haters got to hate.
The whole avatar fluff with the ultra marines isn't bad. They both got screwed up in the fight, one just happened to win. And just because this thread is in five other places doesn't mean that its still on this topic. Every thread that can make its way back to Matt ward in any manor of speaking does and the whole point behind the thread is lost in Ward hate and trolling each other.
TheRobotLol wrote:really said himself that almost ALL marines want to be just like them and have their 'Spiritual liege'
Citation needed.
Sometimes I think people don't get that most codexes are written from the perspective of the described faction.
The Ward phrase is from an interview
Note however, that a similar phrase (also excepting Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels) also appears in the 4th Edition Codex.
Codex Space Marines 4th wrote:
By their reverent obedience to the tenets of the Codex, these Chapters [not Space Wolves etc..] do honour to their forebears, to Roboute Guilliman, and to the Emperor himself.
It's been around long before Ward. Infact, the two things Ward did was take it out of the Codex (and patch it up later in an interview) and perhaps switch/confuse Guilliman with Calgar, which may just be the circumstances of an interview.
Yes, but he is the one who wrote the stuff about the smurfs, therefor making them worse.
He wrote maybe 70 pages out of the thousands of pages written on the chapter. By my count, that's not enough to consider him an author for the chapter, even if those are the first pages presented to players.
Yes, but he is the one who wrote the stuff about the smurfs, therefor making them worse.
He wrote maybe 70 pages out of the thousands of pages written on the chapter. By my count, that's not enough to consider him an author for the chapter, even if those are the first pages presented to players.
Yes but he still had a bad effect. Got a counter arguement?
Yes but he still had a bad effect. Got a counter arguement?
Yes. "All Marines aspire to be Ultramarines" is explicitly in the 4th Edition Codex (and as far back as 2nd Edition fluff). It is not in the 5th Edition Codex.
Yes but he still had a bad effect. Got a counter arguement?
Yes. "All Marines aspire to be Ultramarines" is explicitly in the 4th Edition Codex (and as far back as 2nd Edition fluff). It is not in the 5th Edition Codex.
Yes, yes it is. Just not quite in those words.
He'd have been better off putting in the dex and not in an interview. it would have equaled less hate.
TheRobotLol wrote:Just reading that makes my skin crawl.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AngryMarine wrote:
TheRobotLol wrote:
Yes, but he is the one who wrote the stuff about the smurfs, therefor making them worse.
He wrote maybe 70 pages out of the thousands of pages written on the chapter. By my count, that's not enough to consider him an author for the chapter, even if those are the first pages presented to players.
Yes but he still had a bad effect. Got a counter arguement?
That WAS the argument. You're repeating yourself. This isn't pee on Matt Ward thread, it's the "people hate Ultras for no real reason" thread.
Yes but he still had a bad effect. Got a counter arguement?
Yes. "All Marines aspire to be Ultramarines" is explicitly in the 4th Edition Codex (and as far back as 2nd Edition fluff). It is not in the 5th Edition Codex.
Yes, yes it is. Just not quite in those words.
He'd have been better off putting in the dex and not in an interview. it would have equaled less hate.
Nom
Perhaps. But consider the context of this Interview. It was made on the heels of an unprecedented roll-back of UM focus for a Space Marine Codex. All UM-specific special units had their "serial numbers" filed off to become generic Sternguard or Honor Guard. The number of non-UM SCs more than doubled. The UM specific artwork throughout the army list for each and every selection had disappeared. Etc.. . Clearly, the WD interview was trying make amends, expecting (foolishly perhaps) that the comparative removal of UM-stuff from the Space Marine Codex would aggravate fans, rather than what was still left of it by its heritage of being a near-exclusive UM codex.
Despite this, I also agree with (especially) the last third of Ward's interview. He put "the battles" back into 40K Codexes (which has become standard by now), relieving us of the tedious, descriptive school-book-style of 4th Edition books that simply told the reader what each army was like, rather than portraying it through the actions and battles they participate in.
TheRobotLol wrote:Just reading that makes my skin crawl.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
AngryMarine wrote:
TheRobotLol wrote:
Yes, but he is the one who wrote the stuff about the smurfs, therefor making them worse.
He wrote maybe 70 pages out of the thousands of pages written on the chapter. By my count, that's not enough to consider him an author for the chapter, even if those are the first pages presented to players.
Yes but he still had a bad effect. Got a counter arguement?
That WAS the argument. You're repeating yourself. This isn't pee on Matt Ward thread, it's the "people hate Ultras for no real reason" thread.
*Sigh* its not for no reason, its because Matt ward, along with previous codexes, have made ultrasmurfs the, superultramega marines who save the day and are the apparent pinacle of marines. Call that no reason.
TheRobotLol wrote:
*Sigh* its not for no reason, its because Matt ward, along with previous codexes, have made ultrasmurfs the, superultramega marines who save the day and are the apparent pinacle of marines. Call that no reason.
So you do have a reason. You're butt hurt that your favorites aren't in the spotlight. Someone will always be out front. Would people still have this level of hate for the Salamanders if they were , all of the sudden, on the cover of all the books and products?
Zweischneid wrote:
Which has been a prominent constant in 40K for 25 years now. Makes one wonder why you choose the hobby in the first place if it so aggravates you?
Zweischneid wrote:
Which has been a prominent constant in 40K for 25 years now. Makes one wonder why you choose the hobby in the first place if it so aggravates you?
TheRobotLol wrote:Just ignoring my quesion AngryMarine, I see.
You just continually ignore that everything you seem to hate "about Ward" with respect to Ultramarines has existed in 40K since Mat Ward was busy getting ready for his first day in pre-school.
AngryMarine wrote:I did. I made as little sense as anything else you've posted this morning.
Dumbass Ward lover
Ultramarine lover, not Ward. It is good to see the pinnacle of your argumentative prowess.
You have pretty much ignored all those who actually answer your original question. Why make the thread and ask the question if you ignore the answers?
Few actually answered the question originally posted. What I got was "Ward bad" and "they win alot." People didn't tell me why they don't like the chapter. This is a question of the fluff, not the business.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you're arguement is no longer worth my time.
There is, in truth, little that's genuinely objectionable about the Ultramarines themselves, it's simply that their status as the favourites of The Great Beast has made them despised by association.
TheRobotLol wrote:Yes. The fluff. Which Ward gave them.
L2Research. Ultramarines have almost always been the favored children of both the designers and the actual universe.
Index Astartes:
"Of all the Codex Champters, the most famous is the Ultramarines, the Chapter of Roboute Guilliman himself, and many of the other Codex Chapters are descended from their genetic line."
"The Adeptus Terra has never felt it necessary to enforce the Codex absolutely. Indeed it is doubtful whether it could. However, with subsequent foundings they have always favoured the Ultramarines' gene-seed and created new Codex Chapters from their line. "
"It is believed that there are approximately a thousand in existence today, scattered throughout the galaxy. Of these more than half are descended from the Ultramarines, either directly or through one of the Primogenitor Chapters of the Second Founding."
"Those chapters created from the Ultramarines geneseed stored on T erra are known, collectively, as the Primogenitors or first born, and they also venerate Roboute Guilliman as their founding father."
"Every one of the esoteric organs utilized by the Ultramarines are fully functional, and it can be truly be said of this Chapter that they are as perfect today as they were in the days of Guilliman himself."
Wow! Ward wrote so much before he was even hired! He even did it under the pseudo-nym of Andy Chambers and Rick Priestly.
I wouldn't describe my feelings as "hate". More of a /rollseyes reaction to them. They are portrayed as the shining beacon of everything good about the asartes. That's going to spark up hatred no matter what. They are kinda like superman with no kryptonite. I was always more of a batman kinda guy, someone who isn't always perfect and maybe has a dark side to them.
I've played against a friend who plays them on the table and if I win (he is a great guy and a good player, we split a lot of games) he comes up with some story/fluff excuse as to who the amazing all powerful Ultramarines decided to lose this battle, or flee to fight another day. I suppose it's how you should play that chapter.
Like it or not, Ward is tied to these guys. A lot of us remember this game when it was darker, much darker. The asartes didn't always win. The universe was full of awful xenos and chaos abominations that would rip your lungs out even if you did wear shiny blue armor and act like a Greek god who's excrement didn't stink. Some of the new fluff makes the asartes out to be the justice league and the ultramarines are superman. I enjoy that kind of thing, but I always liked 40k because it was different and, well, grimdark!
The statements about the Ultramarines being the best of the best and what every asartes aspires to be, don't help things any. Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.
Then after Horus was killed and Chaos finally ran away to the eye of terror, Guilliman decides he's going to take charge and force the other legions to do what he says. No wonder a lot of primarchs had a problem with him. Then he got his neck owned by a tranny snake daemon.
Unfortunately, I don't have C: Ultramarines saved on this machine and scribd is blocked at work or I could find even older instances of Ward's deception (from 2nd Edition!!!)!
Zweischneid wrote:
Despite this, I also agree with (especially) the last third of Ward's interview. He put "the battles" back into 40K Codexes (which has become standard by now), relieving us of the tedious, descriptive school-book-style of 4th Edition books that simply told the reader what each army was like, rather than portraying it through the actions and battles they participate in.
The 4th ed books had stories and anecdotes as well though.
Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.
Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.
Few actually answered the question originally posted. What I got was "Ward bad" and "they win alot." People didn't tell me why they don't like the chapter. This is a question of the fluff, not the business.
nomsheep wrote:
1) Because they are poster poys therefore easier to hate.
2) The codex states that all chapters recognize marneous(sp?) Calgar (and therefore robuitte(sp?) Guilliman) as their spiritual liege and those that don't are abherrant.
3) Matt Ward wrote them
4) Calgar beats the Gak out of the Avatar of Khaine
Nom
nomsheep wrote:Ultras are the poster boys of 40k.
People will always hate on what's popular for if for no other reason at all other than it's popular.
Nom
Deadshot wrote:I hate that when GW don't have a chapter for an epic story, its always UM that they use. OPnce or twice where they are actually concerned, like an Ultramar Invasion or the Tau Empire, fine, but a bunch of Marines fly down umpteen hundred light yerars to fight Hive Fleets, Necrons and whatever else on the other side of the galaxy is moronic when other chapters are better positioned to do so.
To build on what nom said, I would like to mention a quick story in Feb's WD where Marneus Calgar takes on the Swarmlord of Kraken. He charges out of his Drop Pod, gives the Swarmlord the old 1-2. Swarmlord's out of it, Calgar standing triump[hantly over the alien corpse-Wait! Back up a minute. This is the same swarmlord that almost killed Marneus Calgar at the Battle for Maccragge, and outsmarted every strategy and tactic Papa Smurf came up with, somertimes even before Calgar had thought them through completely? The one that is respawned with the exact same memories, therefore next time he fights an enemy, he is better equipped to do so? He beats Calgar in round 1, but loses in round 2? If Ward didn't write that then my left butt cheek is a squat and the right one is Creed.
Also, though I know rules =/= fluff, Marneus Calgar, in game terms, has no chance against the Swarmlord.
PapaPiggy wrote:I think its how 'eavy metal as painted them in the past. Red bolters on a bright blue god awful looking marine. There is something wrong with that on every level. plus, birds gotta fly. Fish gotta swim, and haters got to hate.
The whole avatar fluff with the ultra marines isn't bad. They both got screwed up in the fight, one just happened to win.
These are all fine mostly non-ward related answers to what you asked.
No-one complains that they win, just that their victories go against previous fluff or don't make sense.
Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.
Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.
Right but not just coincidentally. Kor Phaeron was working for Horus to delay their arrival at Terra. They weren't the only ones that were out and about and not able to help out. It's the only reason Horus could assault Terra to begin with and when the remaining chapters were hours away he went for broke and opened his defenses. I suppose it could have been been a helpful coincidence, but I always read it as being planned ahead of time by Horus. Much like the whole 1k sons vs wolves set up.
These are all fine mostly non-ward related answers to what you asked.
No-one complains that they win, just that their victories go against previous fluff or don't make sense.
Nom
How do their victories go against previous fluff? Or how have UM (or Ward in generally) ever written anything remotely as ridiculous as, say, Maugan Ra defening an entire planet from a full-blown Tyranid Hive fleet all by himself, or, perhaps, an Ork Boss time travelling about to kill his own self for spare weapons (yah.. the old "dark, gritty days of 40K they were) or the famous "Inquistior Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau" and his famous skin-tight power-armour (I still want one of those)?
Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.
Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.
Right but not just coincidentally. Kor Phaeron was working for Horus to delay their arrival at Terra. They weren't the only ones that were out and about and not able to help out. It's the only reason Horus could assault Terra to begin with and when the remaining chapters were hours away he went for broke and opened his defenses. I suppose it could have been been a helpful coincidence, but I always read it as being planned ahead of time by Horus. Much like the whole 1k sons vs wolves set up.
It was planned, but it isn't like he was fooled. He was assaulted by an entire legion of space marines, not told 'hey look a unicorn!' (although he was asked to go investigate a system near ultramar previous to the heresy, which may have been a preemptive move by Horus).
Also, SW vs 1k Sons was setup by the Emperor; horus merely modified the end result. So, the Big E took the SW and a good portion of the Sisters of Silence and Custodians out of the defense of Terra, not Horus.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Zweischneid wrote:
How do their victories go against previous fluff? Or how have UM (or Ward in generally) ever written anything remotely as ridiculous as, say, Maugan Ra defening an entire planet from a full-blown Tyranid Hive fleet all by himself, or, perhaps, an Ork Boss time travelling about to kill his own self for spare weapons (yah.. the old "dark, gritty days of 40K they were) or the famous "Inquistior Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau" and his famous skin-tight power-armour (I still want one of those)?
Don't forget crashing your bike through void shields and into the cockpit of a titan to destroy it.
Khornesnake wrote:Their primarch was dumb enough to get fooled into not being present at the siege of Terra while Sanguinus gave up his life fighting Horus after he just beat down a bunch of bloodthirsters. The white scars, blood angels and imperial fists all got beat up during the siege as well. The drop site massacre? Salamanders, Raven guard and Iron hands all got destroyed, no Ultra involvement there.
Umm. You might want to research the UM's role in the heresy a bit better. They were tied up by the Word Bearers at Calth for too long to make the Siege.
Right but not just coincidentally. Kor Phaeron was working for Horus to delay their arrival at Terra. They weren't the only ones that were out and about and not able to help out. It's the only reason Horus could assault Terra to begin with and when the remaining chapters were hours away he went for broke and opened his defenses. I suppose it could have been been a helpful coincidence, but I always read it as being planned ahead of time by Horus. Much like the whole 1k sons vs wolves set up.
It was planned, but it isn't like he was fooled. He was assaulted by an entire legion of space marines, not told 'hey look a unicorn!' (although he was asked to go investigate a system near ultramar previous to the heresy, which may have been a preemptive move by Horus).
Also, SW vs 1k Sons was setup by the Emperor; horus merely modified the end result. So, the Big E took the SW and a good portion of the Sisters of Silence and Custodians out of the defense of Terra, not Horus.
Off topic, but I think If the emp. had his way, The wolves and 1k sons would have been on their way back to Terra in time with Magnus' knowledge of the entire heresy. Horus switched Russ from, "bring them back to Terra" to "Wipe them out". This not only delayed Russ longer but also got Magnus to turn to Chaos.
On topic, my point is that I don't think that Guilliman contributed enough during the heresy to give him the right to tell every other legion that they need to split up into smaller chapters and basically do everything he told them to do. Many of the surviving primarchs had an issue with this and I don't blame them.
This gives players like me the feeling that the Ultramarines are a bit too self righteous for my tastes. I don't play any loyalist marines but I would take just about any other chapter over them.
These are all fine mostly non-ward related answers to what you asked.
No-one complains that they win, just that their victories go against previous fluff or don't make sense.
Nom
How do their victories go against previous fluff? Or how have UM (or Ward in generally) ever written anything remotely as ridiculous as, say, Maugan Ra defening an entire planet from a full-blown Tyranid Hive fleet all by himself, or, perhaps, an Ork Boss time travelling about to kill his own self for spare weapons (yah.. the old "dark, gritty days of 40K they were) or the famous "Inquistior Obi-Wan Sherlock Clouseau" and his famous skin-tight power-armour (I still want one of those)?
The stormlord example and explanation.
SIngle handedly beating down the avatar of khaine???
Being everywhere all at once with barely 1000 marines???
Okay, however if you noticed i said people not me. And most of that stuff is being retconned now.
Khornesnake wrote:Off topic, but I think If the emp. had his way, The wolves and 1k sons would have been on their way back to Terra in time with Magnus' knowledge of the entire heresy. Horus switched Russ from, "bring them back to Terra" to "Wipe them out". This not only delayed Russ longer but also got Magnus to turn to Chaos.
If the Emperor had his way, Magnus wouldn't have destroyed all he worked for and killed half the astropaths on Terra. If the Emperor was just sending a peace mission, he probably wouldn't have sent Custodians and SoS. Yeah, Horus changed the orders, but Big E sent Leman Russ loaded for Bear.
On topic, my point is that I don't think that Guilliman contributed enough during the heresy to give him the right to tell every other legion that they need to split up into smaller chapters and basically do everything he told them to do. Many of the surviving primarchs had an issue with this and I don't blame them.
RG had the largest remaining legion and the support of the current rulers of the Imperium. Yeah, he came up with the Codex Astartes, but it wasn't a hard sell to tell everyone 'Yeah, so we seem to have a problem with Legions going bad. Maybe we should chop them into smaller, easier to manage pieces for safety.'
This gives players like me the feeling that the Ultramarines are a bit too self righteous for my tastes. I don't play any loyalist marines but I would take just about any other chapter over them.
Now this is a valid criticism. The Ultramarines see themselves as perfect and as the heirs to the Imperium because that is how their chapter is constructed. This is why a lot of C: SM has that 'holier than thou' attitude; it is because it was written from the UM POV. You'll notice it is absent from the sections focused on other chapters (like the character bios for SCs, etc).
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think a lot of people have problems with the newer fluff because they have short memories and have some concept of the old fluff as an inviolate masterpiece that never did anything OTT or silly.
Yea and this is just my opinion. I still don't think I "hate" the Ultramarines. I personally don't like the fluff but if they were not around, some of the other chapters wouldn't seem as appealing to me in comparison.
My personal issue with Ultramarines is the sheer amount of fluff they get for a single chapter. Ure they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book. That and they never seem to really lose. There may be losses (the polar fortresses) but they don't sound like losses. Also they amount of characters they get is ludicrous. 1/2 of the books characters are Ultras. They way the codex is written gets me as well. I was literally cringing towards the end of their fluff.
The Crusader wrote:My personal issue with Ultramarines is the sheer amount of fluff they get for a single chapter. Ure they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book. That and they never seem to really lose. There may be losses (the polar fortresses) but they don't sound like losses. Also they amount of characters they get is ludicrous. 1/2 of the books characters are Ultras. They way the codex is written gets me as well. I was literally cringing towards the end of their fluff.
You think that the UM's having so much of the fluff and characters in Codex: Space Marines is bad?
I heard that in C:SW, the Space Wolves have 100% of the characters and almost ALL of the fluff! CAN YOU IMAGINE????
Then someone told me the same thing happened in C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, C:CD, C: Necrons, C: Tyranids, C: Chaos Marines, C: Eldar, C: DE, C: Tau, C: SOB and C: Imperial Guard...
I WAS OUTRAGED! How DARE GW put fluff and special characters from the faction that they are representing in their own codex? HOW DARE THEY!
The Crusader wrote:My personal issue with Ultramarines is the sheer amount of fluff they get for a single chapter. Ure they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book. That and they never seem to really lose. There may be losses (the polar fortresses) but they don't sound like losses. Also they amount of characters they get is ludicrous. 1/2 of the books characters are Ultras. They way the codex is written gets me as well. I was literally cringing towards the end of their fluff.
You think that the UM's having so much of the fluff and characters in Codex: Space Marines is bad?
I heard that in C:SW, the Space Wolves have 100% of the characters and almost ALL of the fluff! CAN YOU IMAGINE????
Then someone told me the same thing happened in C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, C:CD, C: Necrons, C: Tyranids, C: Chaos Marines, C: Eldar, C: DE, C: Tau, C: SOB and C: Imperial Guard...
I WAS OUTRAGED! How DARE GW put fluff and special characters from the faction that they are representing in their own codex? HOW DARE THEY!
Alright, Alright, no nood to get snippy, My point was that the codex is supposed to represent 1, 000 chapters and some of them are reasonably famous. They could have fleshed some of them out, instead of writing reams, and reams, and reams of fluff about a single chapter.
The opperating word in my previous post was this: "they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book"
Obviously my post caught a nerve, or you simply didn't read my post properly.
Here's a word of advice: RE-READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT WILL OFFEND
Alright, Alright, no nood to get snippy, My point was that the codex is supposed to represent 1, 000 chapters and some of them are reasonably famous. They could have fleshed some of them out, instead of writing reams, and reams, and reams of fluff about a single chapter.
The opperating word in my previous post was this: "they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book"
Obviously my post caught a nerve, or you simply didn't read my post properly.
Here's a word of advice: RE-READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT WILL OFFEND
Fine and jolly. But there is a historic precedent to that. Show me one Codex Space Marine (which did start as Codex Ultramarines way back when) that provides even half of the fluff, characters, information, background, painting advice for non-Ultramarine chapters than the current 5th Edition one by Mat Ward. Putting them all side-to-side, no author ever tasked with a Space Marine Codex has put more non-UM fluff and material, both relative and absolute, in a Codex Space Marine than Mat Ward by a good margin.
And hate it or leave it, that is the idea why people way back then in the 1980s (long, long before Ward) came up with both the idea of the "Codex Astartes" and the idea that all "Codex-Chapters" (including Salamanders, IF, RG, Iron Hands, whathaveyou) aspire to emulate both the Codex and the Ultramarines. These conceptual mcguffins/shortcuts exist, since the very founding of the 40K universe as it currently stands, precisely so that authors of the Space Marine Codex could work their way through the basic concepts of "Space Marines" using the "iconic example", and would not need to fill a manual of repetititve special snowflake entries for a 1000 chapters.
I think I just dislike the fact that they are made out to have.no.flaw but arrogance which is easily obercome.
DA have the Fallen
SW deviate and the Canis Helix and Wulfen thing
IF have a diviant descendent and are not as "awesome sauce" as UM are made out to be
Salamanders have deviance and the genetic anomolies
Raven.Guard are albino
BA have RT/BR
IH.have techno fetishes
WS have biker heavy deviance.
Deadshot wrote:I think I just dislike the fact that they are made out to have.no.flaw but arrogance which is easily obercome.
DA have the Fallen
SW deviate and the Canis Helix and Wulfen thing
IF have a diviant descendent and are not as "awesome sauce" as UM are made out to be
Salamanders have deviance and the genetic anomolies
Raven.Guard are albino
BA have RT/BR
IH.have techno fetishes
WS have biker heavy deviance.
Yah. Because those are all so terrible flaws. A mighty drawback for the Wolves to have a flaw that makes them more "wolfy" to fit their theme. Would have been a real pity if they'd wanted to run a Bird or Lizard as their chapter symbol instead I guess. Same for Iron Hands. Seriously? The are called Iron Hands, have Iron Hands and rule with an Iron Hand. Very subtle there. Raven Guard go albino, though with cool jet-black eyes and hair instead of gakky albino. Phhhf. Salamanders? What flaw exactly that isn't custome made to underline their theme? BA's are "flawed" to be even better in close combat which they specialize in and White Scars are "flawed" to be bikers as bikers is their theme. Real bummers those I must say.
The Crusader wrote:Alright, Alright, no nood to get snippy, My point was that the codex is supposed to represent 1, 000 chapters and some of them are reasonably famous. They could have fleshed some of them out, instead of writing reams, and reams, and reams of fluff about a single chapter.
The opperating word in my previous post was this: "they are the primogenitors or something but even so, that title DOES NOT warrant that much fluff in a collective book"
Obviously my post caught a nerve, or you simply didn't read my post properly.
Here's a word of advice: RE-READ POSTS BEFORE YOU POST SOMETHING THAT WILL OFFEND
Y so mad?
Ultramarines and their successors make up >50% of all chapters in the current universe. Weird that they would make up >50% of the Codex compliant chapters.
Here's a word of advice: I've heard a Sense of Humor is pretty cheap on Amazon.
Why am I so angry? Maybe because I don't like being spoken to like I'm a slow, that's why. And I'll have you know I do infact have a sense of humour, its just that THIS wasn't:
pretre wrote:I heard that in C:SW, the Space Wolves have 100% of the characters and almost ALL of the fluff! CAN YOU IMAGINE????
Then someone told me the same thing happened in C:BA, C:BT, C: DA, C:CD, C: Necrons, C: Tyranids, C: Chaos Marines, C: Eldar, C: DE, C: Tau, C: SOB and C: Imperial Guard...
I WAS OUTRAGED! How DARE GW put fluff and special characters from the faction that they are representing in their own codex? HOW DARE THEY!
P.S. Would you mind turning the sarcasm down just a tad, seeing as ^that^ seemed a rather vicious.
The Crusader wrote:Why am I so angry? Maybe because I don't like being spoken to like I'm a slow, that's why. And I'll have you know I do infact have a sense of humour, its just that THIS wasn't:
I personally thought it was pretty funny. Also, you might want to avoid the R word.
P.S. Would you mind turning the sarcasm down just a tad, seeing as ^that^ seemed a rather vicious.
Sorry if I hurt your feeling pookie, but when you make a declarative statement on a discussion board, it is very possible that someone may challenge your declarative statement. Sometimes they will do it with another declarative statement; sometimes they will use all sorts of tricksy wordplay to do so.
That being said, let's head back to the original topic.
It is not unreasonable to think that Codex: Space Marines, which represents the hundreds of Codex compliant chapters, might have an large amount of information on the Ultramarines. This is especially true because the Ultramarines are the progenitors of greater than 50% of ALL chapters, not just the Codex compliant ones. So that means that if we take out all the weird chapters (BT, SW, etc) and their descendents, UM and their descendents probably make up 60-75% of the entire marine population. Crazy then that they might take up a good chunk of Codex: Space Marines.
I don't see what the big deal is. C:SM has a bunch of Ultramarine fluff, but it has a lot of fluff from the other chapters that use the same codex. Would people get this worked up if the Eldar Codex was mainly about 1 Craftworld, or the Tyranid Codex was about 1 hive fleet?
And hating on the Ultramarines is stupid. Why not hate on GK, BA, or SW, whom are technically more popular since there's more of those MEQ armies than vanilla marines.
Deadshot wrote:I think I just dislike the fact that they are made out to have.no.flaw but arrogance which is easily obercome.
DA have the Fallen
SW deviate and the Canis Helix and Wulfen thing
IF have a diviant descendent and are not as "awesome sauce" as UM are made out to be
Salamanders have deviance and the genetic anomolies
Raven.Guard are albino
BA have RT/BR
IH.have techno fetishes
WS have biker heavy deviance.
Yah. Because those are all so terrible flaws. A mighty drawback for the Wolves to have a flaw that makes them more "wolfy" to fit their theme. Would have been a real pity if they'd wanted to run a Bird or Lizard as their chapter symbol instead I guess. Same for Iron Hands. Seriously? The are called Iron Hands, have Iron Hands and rule with an Iron Hand. Very subtle there. Raven Guard go albino, though with cool jet-black eyes and hair instead of gakky albino. Phhhf. Salamanders? What flaw exactly that isn't custome made to underline their theme? BA's are "flawed" to be even better in close combat which they specialize in and White Scars are "flawed" to be bikers as bikers is their theme. Real bummers those I must say.
They are flaws because they are imperfections. Your comments.on BA only apply gamewise. In fluff terms deviance from the Codex Astartes.or genetic alterations are flaws.
I just hate the company favoritism behind it. I understand they put them up as the Poster Boy because that's what sells, but it's just a dick move by the company in my opinion. It's like going to buy Diet Coke and then Coca-Cola puts out an ad saying that Coca-Cola classic beats the piss out of Diet Coke drinking pansy-faeries.
Here's the thing though. It's an annoyance to me. I don't take it past that. I may whine online, but who cares? I know plenty of guys that use Smurfs and I am cool with them. I don't hate the player, I hate the game.
"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25.
"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward
"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7
I don't hate the Ultramarines, I hate Mat Ward
but... You asked for it!
There are ongoing reasons that every other chapter of both Loyalist and Traitor legion are better than the Ultramarines. Here are but a few:
They did not fight against the traitor legions on the walls of the Imperial Palace, fighting with all they had to defend Terra against horrors the likes of which had never been seen before in the history of the Imperium.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.
They did not lose half of their chapter to heresy A COMPLETELY RANDOM AND COMPLICATED ACCIDENT THAT DID NOT INVOLVE HERESY and engage on a millenia-long crusade of penance to clear their name in the eyes of all other chapters GETTING SMOKES, a never-ending quest that causes them to heroically go up against all odds in order to restore their chapter's shattered TOTALLY AWESOME AND UNDISPUTED honor.
That award goes to the Dark Angels.
They do not have the balls to ignore what their Chapter Master wishes, realizing that a chapter with a decentralized command structure is far more effective, choose instead to, like a few other badasses, do their own thing. This means they head around the galaxy and openly lend their aid to any Imperial Guard, Planetary Government, or Space Marine unit that needs their assistance in sabotage, covert ops, and assassination, which includes an assault on a heavily-fortified Tau outpost that captures the ethereal and leaves hundreds dead via a covert strike from a single squad.
That award goes to the Raven Guard.
They did not wind up taking a heavily-defended city that had dug in with fifty marines after it had 2 weeks to prepare its defenses because taking it the quick way with hundreds of casualties "would have been too easy."
That award goes to the Alpha Legion.
They did not wind up having a Primarch fighting alongside the Emperor deep into Horus' battle barge during the Horus Heresy, only to wind up in a doomed battle that he himself knew he could not win - but fought nonetheless knowing full well that death awaited no matter what course he took.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.
They are not kickass vikings in space with a Primarch that fething kicked that [see forum posting rules] Horus' ass in a duel and who was so manly that the Imperial Guard named a tank after him, which has gone on to be perhaps the most-used tank in the imperial arsenal.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.
They are not crafted from the Emperor's Gene-Seed and are privy to knowledge that would destroy lesser men, tasked with the all-important mission of having to destroy the most powerful entities ever brought about from the warp or die in the attempt (sure as hell would not have lost an entire squad, a Brother-Captain, an Apothecary, And a Chaplain, to ONE lowly fethwit daemon).
That award goes to the Grey Knights.
They are not angry enough to gak plasma grenades and then punch someone in the face with one just to show you how awesome they are.
That award goes to the Angry Marines.
They are not capable of blending in for more than 3 seconds and resolving conflicts by simply talking to their opponents instead of shooting them.
That award goes to the Reasonable Marines.
They are not inhumanly beautiful and unrelentingly persistent.
That award goes to the Pretty Marines.
They are not Space Marine Space Pirates that are out for the plunder, wenches, and cool hats.
That award goes to the Red Corsairs.
They are not angry enough to contest the Angry Marines' claim on being the angriest whilst having the support of an almost-as-angry god, while also being the best melee fighters in the setting.
That award goes to the World Eaters.
They are not created by having a lesser daemon posses them and exorcised later as so to be more resistant to daemonic corruption, which would normally result with most Space Marines going insane.
That award goes to the Exorcists, a chapter descended from the Grey Knights.
They aren't awesomesauce enough to create 2 memes in a single game.
That award goes to the Blood Ravens, specifically to Indrick Boreale.
They don't have thick-enough plot armor to have no more than a hair-etical Force commander, a 4-man tactical squad led by the only bald marine in the group, a 3-man assault marine squad led by a young hair-etic, a 3-man devastator squad led by an angry-as-feth devastator sergeant, a 3-man scout squad led by the most morbidly grimdark scout sergeant to ever live, the only confirmed non- Salamander negro librarian in the entire Imperium, and a senile Dreadnought stand up to a Tyranid invasion and full-blown Chaos intrusion all the while having no form of heavy armor support other than said Dreadnought. Though the 4th Company did hold the line for them while these gaks did all the work.
That award again goes to the Blood Ravens.
They don't have a Hair-etical-enough commander and sergeant with a hairstyle that makes them look like Vanilla Ice.
The award also goes to the Blood Ravens.
They do not go around "acquiring" a very large number of priceless artifacts and wargear from a dozen other Space Marine Chapters, the Adeptus Custodes, the Inquisition, and even from Chaos without getting caught.
That award also goes to was "gifted" to the Blood Ravens.
They didn't manage to troll an entire marine chapter (complete with primarch) by having them assault a heavily fortified fortress, and then ambushing them in said fortress after it was but a trap.
That award goes to the Iron Warriors.
They didn't have the balls to defy the Codex Astartes and have more than 1000 marines in a single chapter in-order to commence a never-ending crusade of awesomeness that resulted in numerous victories, purged millions upon millions of filthy heretics, mutants, and Xenos, while doing it in a medieval-esque fashion that involves them rushing their target with the intent to go CQC as much as possible.
That award goes to the Black Templars.
They did not successfully troll the Ultramarines into not only abandoning Terra on a fool's errand, but kicking the smurfs' asses in the process.
That award also goes to the Alpha Legion.
They are not badass black marines that kick the gak out of foul xenos with flamer and melta weapons even after shreds of their chapter went dumbshit.
That award goes to the Salamanders.
They did not achieve this feat while remaining fundamentally decent human beings in a universe that pisses grimdark.
That award also goes to the Salamanders.
They do not have a very large amount of master crafted and artificer wargear because they give their artificers extra time to make them since each marine maintains his own wargear.
The third award that goes to the Salamanders
They were not capable of getting entire star systems to unconditionally surrender via the mere mention that they were approaching a system.
That award goes to the Night Lords.
They are not a legion who spent ten thousand years enhancing themselves with bionics and has survived decades despite being constantly ignored by Games Workshop.
That award goes to the Iron Hands.
They did not turn traitor to protect priceless bits of lore because daddy wanted to be a fethwit and decided to hate on Psykers.
That award goes to the Thousand Sons.
They did not simultaneously tell both Chaos and the Imperium to feth off due to Tzeentch and now go around the galaxy in a Space Hulk fighting everyone in the name of the Emperor at the command of a half spider Chapter Master.
That award goes to the Soul Drinkers.
They did not have two homeworlds destroyed, been brought back from the brink of extinction many times, then finally have the entire Chapter disappear in the warp, only to come back with a different paint job and name, to help Imperials in their time of need, while battling a warp disease that destroys their sanity but gives them incredible strength.
That award goes to the Fire Hawks/Legion of the Damned.
They do not manage to be tactically competent and even come off as likable and relate-able to the normal people of the Imperium despite being superhuman warriors.
That award goes to the Iron Snakes.
They do not breath fire. (FIRE.)
That award goes to the Fire Lords.
They do not have the highest concentration of Beakies of any chapter.
That award also goes to the Raven Guard.
They were not almost completely destroyed by random chance before rallying their few remaining brothers and defending a city from an Ork waagh! with virtually no reinforcements while avoiding stupidly suicidal moves to someday rebuild their shattered chapter (a feat which most thought would be impossible).
That award goes to the Crimson Fists.
They were not the Legion whose Primarch had such moral integrity that he would never tell a lie if his life or cause depended on it.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.
They are not listed on Games Workshop own website as the most noble and heroic chapter of Space Marines.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.
They are not a chapter noted for actually defying Inquisitorial if it means preserving innocents who would fight and die for their homeworld.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.
They do not have their nerve systems directly linked to their brains in a way that brings euphoria from any stimulation, nor do they possess weaponry that kills enemies with hard rock.
That award goes to the Emperor's Children.
So? Ultramarines are hated because they are supposedly too awsome and win victories too easily against implausible odds, but they are also hated because all the other chapters are far more awsome than Ultramarines are and won more and more amazing victories against even more implausible odds. That about right?
King Pariah wrote:"Chapters [not descended from Guilliman's geneseed] are disciples who owe their genetic inheritance to another Primarch, but follow the Codex Astartes as keenly as their divergent heritage allows. While primarily composed of successor Chapters, this group also includes several Chapters of the First Founding - notably the Imperial Fists, White Scars and the Raven Guard. These chapters can never be Ultramarines, for their gene-seed is not that of Roboute Guilliman. Nevertheless, they will ever aspire to the standards and teachings of the great Primarch.
[Chapters who do not emulate the Ultramarines] are aberrants; chapters who, through quirk of gene-seed, mutation or stubbornness, eschew the Codex Astartes in favor of other structural and combat doctrines. Some, such as the Blood Angels and their successors, strive to be worthy of Guilliman's legacy, but their recalcitrant gene-seed drives them ever further from it. Others, such as the Space Wolves and the Black Templars, remain stubbornly independent, looking to their own founder's ways of war and caring little of how they fare in the eyes of others. These aberrant Chapters were always few in number and their presence diminishes with each passing decade, for their gene-seed is no longer the source of fresh Chapters." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer (unfortunately), Codex: Space Marines, 5th Edition, p/ 25.
Written from the UM perspective in their own book. SHOCKING.
"The Ultramarines are undoubtedly the best Space Marines ever. Yes, really! Thanks to the heritage of Guilliman and their myriad heroic deeds, the Ultramarines are the exemplars of the Space Marines. With a few fringe exceptions... all Space Marine chapters want to be like the Ultramarines and recognize Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege." - Matt Ward
In an interview... OH NOES!
"Indeed, it was Guilliman who would have the greatest lasting effect upon the now leaderless Blood Angels. Through the Codex Astartes - that great treatise on the restructuring and ordering of the Space Marines - Guilliman's legacy would reshape the Blood Angels Legion into the Chapters that defend the Imperium to this day." - Matt Ward, Ultramarines player, codex writer, Codex: Blood Angels, p. 7
That's fact. Guilliman had a HUGE impact on every Codex Compliant chapter.
There are ongoing reasons that every other chapter of both Loyalist and Traitor legion are better than the Ultramarines. Here are but a few:
They did not fight against the traitor legions on the walls of the Imperial Palace, fighting with all they had to defend Terra against horrors the likes of which had never been seen before in the history of the Imperium.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.
They did not lose half of their chapter to heresy A COMPLETELY RANDOM AND COMPLICATED ACCIDENT THAT DID NOT INVOLVE HERESY and engage on a millenia-long crusade of penance to clear their name in the eyes of all other chapters GETTING SMOKES, a never-ending quest that causes them to heroically go up against all odds in order to restore their chapter's shattered TOTALLY AWESOME AND UNDISPUTED honor.
That award goes to the Dark Angels.
They do not have the balls to ignore what their Chapter Master wishes, realizing that a chapter with a decentralized command structure is far more effective, choose instead to, like a few other badasses, do their own thing. This means they head around the galaxy and openly lend their aid to any Imperial Guard, Planetary Government, or Space Marine unit that needs their assistance in sabotage, covert ops, and assassination, which includes an assault on a heavily-fortified Tau outpost that captures the ethereal and leaves hundreds dead via a covert strike from a single squad.
That award goes to the Raven Guard.
They did not wind up taking a heavily-defended city that had dug in with fifty marines after it had 2 weeks to prepare its defenses because taking it the quick way with hundreds of casualties "would have been too easy."
That award goes to the Alpha Legion.
They did not wind up having a Primarch fighting alongside the Emperor deep into Horus' battle barge during the Horus Heresy, only to wind up in a doomed battle that he himself knew he could not win - but fought nonetheless knowing full well that death awaited no matter what course he took.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.
They are not kickass vikings in space with a Primarch that fething kicked that [see forum posting rules] Horus' ass in a duel and who was so manly that the Imperial Guard named a tank after him, which has gone on to be perhaps the most-used tank in the imperial arsenal.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.
They are not crafted from the Emperor's Gene-Seed and are privy to knowledge that would destroy lesser men, tasked with the all-important mission of having to destroy the most powerful entities ever brought about from the warp or die in the attempt (sure as hell would not have lost an entire squad, a Brother-Captain, an Apothecary, And a Chaplain, to ONE lowly fethwit daemon).
That award goes to the Grey Knights.
Snipped the 4chan garbage
They are not Space Marine Space Pirates that are out for the plunder, wenches, and cool hats.
That award goes to the Red Corsairs.
They are not angry enough to contest the Angry Marines' claim on being the angriest whilst having the support of an almost-as-angry god, while also being the best melee fighters in the setting.
That award goes to the World Eaters.
They are not created by having a lesser daemon posses them and exorcised later as so to be more resistant to daemonic corruption, which would normally result with most Space Marines going insane.
That award goes to the Exorcists, a chapter descended from the Grey Knights.
Snipped the 4chan garbage
They didn't manage to troll an entire marine chapter (complete with primarch) by having them assault a heavily fortified fortress, and then ambushing them in said fortress after it was but a trap.
That award goes to the Iron Warriors.
They didn't have the balls to defy the Codex Astartes and have more than 1000 marines in a single chapter in-order to commence a never-ending crusade of awesomeness that resulted in numerous victories, purged millions upon millions of filthy heretics, mutants, and Xenos, while doing it in a medieval-esque fashion that involves them rushing their target with the intent to go CQC as much as possible.
That award goes to the Black Templars.
They did not successfully troll the Ultramarines into not only abandoning Terra on a fool's errand, but kicking the smurfs' asses in the process.
That award also goes to the Alpha Legion.
They are not badass black marines that kick the gak out of foul xenos with flamer and melta weapons even after shreds of their chapter went dumbshit.
That award goes to the Salamanders.
They did not achieve this feat while remaining fundamentally decent human beings in a universe that pisses grimdark.
That award also goes to the Salamanders.
They do not have a very large amount of master crafted and artificer wargear because they give their artificers extra time to make them since each marine maintains his own wargear.
The third award that goes to the Salamanders
They were not capable of getting entire star systems to unconditionally surrender via the mere mention that they were approaching a system.
That award goes to the Night Lords.
They are not a legion who spent ten thousand years enhancing themselves with bionics and has survived decades despite being constantly ignored by Games Workshop.
That award goes to the Iron Hands.
They did not turn traitor to protect priceless bits of lore because daddy wanted to be a fethwit and decided to hate on Psykers.
That award goes to the Thousand Sons.
They did not simultaneously tell both Chaos and the Imperium to feth off due to Tzeentch and now go around the galaxy in a Space Hulk fighting everyone in the name of the Emperor at the command of a half spider Chapter Master.
That award goes to the Soul Drinkers.
They did not have two homeworlds destroyed, been brought back from the brink of extinction many times, then finally have the entire Chapter disappear in the warp, only to come back with a different paint job and name, to help Imperials in their time of need, while battling a warp disease that destroys their sanity but gives them incredible strength.
That award goes to the Fire Hawks/Legion of the Damned.
They do not manage to be tactically competent and even come off as likable and relate-able to the normal people of the Imperium despite being superhuman warriors.
That award goes to the Iron Snakes.
They do not breath fire. (FIRE.)
That award goes to the Fire Lords.
They do not have the highest concentration of Beakies of any chapter.
That award also goes to the Raven Guard.
They were not almost completely destroyed by random chance before rallying their few remaining brothers and defending a city from an Ork waagh! with virtually no reinforcements while avoiding stupidly suicidal moves to someday rebuild their shattered chapter (a feat which most thought would be impossible).
That award goes to the Crimson Fists.
They were not the Legion whose Primarch had such moral integrity that he would never tell a lie if his life or cause depended on it.
That award goes to the Imperial Fists.
They are not listed on Games Workshop own website as the most noble and heroic chapter of Space Marines.
That award goes to the Blood Angels.
They are not a chapter noted for actually defying Inquisitorial if it means preserving innocents who would fight and die for their homeworld.
That award goes to the Space Wolves.
They do not have their nerve systems directly linked to their brains in a way that brings euphoria from any stimulation, nor do they possess weaponry that kills enemies with hard rock.
That award goes to the Emperor's Children.
No, they and Guilliman just restructured the Legions in the image of the Codex so as to prevent another Heresy from happening, or at worst mitigate the ones that do. They also became the basis for the vast majority of all living marines (500,000-750,000 of the 1,000,000 current alive marines) by virtue of their untainted genetics. Guess that's not a big deal though.
My problem with the Ultramarines isn't with the Ultramarines themselves (I rather enjoy a Greek / Roman themed chapter actually) but with Guilliman.
That sonovabitch, after the Emperor died, wrote a book that said <THIS IS HOW YOU WIN> and when the Imperial Fists (who are not so bad themselves) said "Wait, let's reconsider..." Guilliman threatened them with civil war.
That would be like Hitler threatening, say, Sun Tzu for saying "Wait, you should reconsider your "ATTACK RUSSIA" plan..."
Guilliman was not the pinnacle of military strategy anymore than Dorn was, or Perturabo, or Alpharius. In fact, the only one I would say who is worse than Guilliman at strategy for sure is Angron, and that's because of a malfunctioning cybernetic implant.
So why does Guilliman get to make all the choices, and since when does he get to threaten the other half of the loyalist astartes for disagreeing?
One, the Codex was written before the Emperor died.
Two, way to get all Godwin on this piece.
Three, actually Guilliman was the pinnacle of strategy. Each primarch had their gifts and Guilliman's was strategy.
Four, Guilliman did what he had to to forge a broken imperium into one that could move forward in the wake of the heresy.
Five, The codex was forced on the legions to prevent a repeat of the heresy AND IT WORKED. Now when a Chapter goes heretic, the problem is contained to less than 1000 marines.
pretre wrote:One, the Codex was written before the Emperor died.
Two, way to get all Godwin on this piece.
Three, actually Guilliman was the pinnacle of strategy. Each primarch had their gifts and Guilliman's was strategy.
Four, Guilliman did what he had to to forge a broken imperium into one that could move forward in the wake of the heresy.
Five, The codex was forced on the legions to prevent a repeat of the heresy AND IT WORKED. Now when a Chapter goes heretic, the problem is contained to less than 1000 marines.
1) I didn't know that - I am almost 100% certain that the codex was written post-heresy, otherwise this is directly contrary to point 5 as it did NOT work.
2) Huhwha? I know what Godwin's Law is, and I suppose I could've used Napoleon instead of Hitler. My bad.
3) I disagree that each primarch had their gifts. I think each primarch had an acquired strength, but it wasn't a genetic strength. And our master of strategy was out-strategied by Horus, so...
4) You act like Guilliman's option was the only option - I do not accept this dichotomy. (Either no progress or Guilliman's progress is a false dichotomy).
5) That's not true - see the Badab War. It really isn't working all that well.
Whatever the Ultramarines may or may not have done during the Horus Heresy. I dare anyone have a look at the 4th Edition Space Marine Codex. It even says explicitly that Horus adjusted all his plans with respect to the Ultramarines, which he considered the biggest threat. Ultramarines were not present on Terra, because Horus knew that the presence of Ultramarines would spell his defeat. All other chapters were a lesser threat in comparison to Ultramarines for the Warmaster.
Codex Space Marines 4th Edition wrote:
Tutored on the world of Macragge, Guilliman understood the logistics of warfare better than any man alive and, together with his surviving brother Primarchs and their Legions, held the scattered defenders of Humanity together through the nightmare days that followed.
Knowing of Guilliman's lethal efficiency in war, Horus had masterfully planned his heresy to begin while the Ultramarines were fighting far in the galactic south, and as a result, the Ultramarines had come through the terrible wars largely unscathed.
Like it or not, that was the official canon until Mat Ward toned it down considerably.
pretre wrote:One, the Codex was written before the Emperor died.
Two, way to get all Godwin on this piece.
Three, actually Guilliman was the pinnacle of strategy. Each primarch had their gifts and Guilliman's was strategy.
Four, Guilliman did what he had to to forge a broken imperium into one that could move forward in the wake of the heresy.
Five, The codex was forced on the legions to prevent a repeat of the heresy AND IT WORKED. Now when a Chapter goes heretic, the problem is contained to less than 1000 marines.
1) I didn't know that - I am almost 100% certain that the codex was written post-heresy, otherwise this is directly contrary to point 5 as it did NOT work.
2) Huhwha? I know what Godwin's Law is, and I suppose I could've used Napoleon instead of Hitler. My bad.
3) I disagree that each primarch had their gifts. I think each primarch had an acquired strength, but it wasn't a genetic strength. And our master of strategy was out-strategied by Horus, so...
4) You act like Guilliman's option was the only option - I do not accept this dichotomy. (Either no progress or Guilliman's progress is a false dichotomy).
5) That's not true - see the Badab War. It really isn't working all that well.
- Read 'Age of Darkness'. Codex was written before the Heresy was over.
- Umm, yeah.
- The whole point of the primarchs was that they were each individually designed to have different strengths. That's a fundamental part of the universe. Guilliman wasn't out strategied by Horus. He was given a legitimate order, pre-heresy and then was ambushed by an entire legion. That's a bit different than getting outfoxed on the battlefield.
- Luckily, you weren't there.
- Badab War didn't have any Legions go over to chaos. Big difference between Chapters and Legions. If the Badab War had had as many Legions go bad as Chapters actually went bad it would have been a HUGE problem. By chopping everyone up into chapters, Guilliman prevented something on the scale of the Heresy from happening again. It was distasteful, but it worked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To add to Zweischneid's point, they were also the largest Legion at the time of the heresy. This was largely due to some 'recruits' from the missing legions.
pretre wrote:
- Read 'Age of Darkness'. Codex was written before the Heresy was over.
- Umm, yeah.
- The whole point of the primarchs was that they were each individually designed to have different strengths. That's a fundamental part of the universe. Guilliman wasn't out strategied by Horus. He was given a legitimate order, pre-heresy and then was ambushed by an entire legion. That's a bit different than getting outfoxed on the battlefield.
- Luckily, you weren't there.
- Badab War didn't have any Legions go over to chaos. Big difference between Chapters and Legions. If the Badab War had had as many Legions go bad as Chapters actually went bad it would have been a HUGE problem. By chopping everyone up into chapters, Guilliman prevented something on the scale of the Heresy from happening again. It was distasteful, but it worked.
Automatically Appended Next Post: To add to Zweischneid's point, they were also the largest Legion at the time of the heresy. This was largely due to some 'recruits' from the missing legions.
1) Ok, my bad. So it was written when the Emperor was still alive - that doesn't change my opinion of it much.
2) So anyways, it would be like Napoleon threatening Sun Tzu with war because Mr. Tzu suggested he take a second look at invading Russia... yeah.
3) Oh? I thought this universe had few fundamental parts and the canon was open to interpretation; at least, that was my impression. And at any rate, that is the definition of strategy - large scale maneuvers off the battlefield. Getting outfoxed on the battlefield is a tactical failure, not a strategic one. BTW why, if Guilliman is strategically inclined, does the Codex Astartes make such tight tactical and individual proscriptions which have little to do with overall strategy?
4) No, but Dorn was and his proposed alternative (along with every other opposing Primarch's) was silenced under threat of civil war.
5) There would inherently be fewer legions than chapters, so the same number of marines would have gone over - there were only 9 legions. And nothing on the scale of the heresy could happen ever again anyways because there's only so many 1/2s in a stagnant number of Marines.
They were the largest legion, yes - I agree. The Ultramarines were a glorious and wonderful legion, despite the best efforts of their mediocre primarch.
Here's the problem I have - nothing Guilliman does during the Great Crusade warrants him being the "BESTEST." He simply is declared the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR without explanation.
You missed out where I said I don't hate the UM, I hate Mat Ward
and the rest was sorta joking, you know, after I said "but... you ask for it!"
Yeah, we got all that. We just were attacking your argument and not you.
Unless you're saying your entire point was that you hate Mat Ward for no particular reason, in which case you have far more effectively attacked your argument than we ever could.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Quote fail.
Unit1126PLL wrote:3) Oh? I thought this universe had few fundamental parts and the canon was open to interpretation; at least, that was my impression. And at any rate, that is the definition of strategy - large scale maneuvers off the battlefield. Getting outfoxed on the battlefield is a tactical failure, not a strategic one. BTW why, if Guilliman is strategically inclined, does the Codex Astartes make such tight tactical and individual proscriptions which have little to do with overall strategy?
Okay, tactical genius, whatever get all pedantic on me. Same thing. He is the Emperor's gift to skill in directing troops on the battlefield.
4) No, but Dorn was and his proposed alternative (along with every other opposing Primarch's) was silenced under threat of civil war.
What was Dorn's alternative? Go with things as they were? Good thing he didn't get his way.
5) There would inherently be fewer legions than chapters, so the same number of marines would have gone over - there were only 9 legions. And nothing on the scale of the heresy could happen ever again anyways because there's only so many 1/2s in a stagnant number of Marines.
I think you mean 9 chapters. 9000 guys is a great deal less than 90,000 to 9 million (depending on Legion size). 9000 Marines can forseeably be defeated by conventional forces, 90,000 not so much. I don't even know what your last sentence is supposed to mean. Elaborate?
Here's the problem I have - nothing Guilliman does during the Great Crusade warrants him being the "BESTEST." He simply is declared the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR without explanation.
Ignoring the silly interweb speak, they say that he is the most influential because his work is what created space marines and chapters as we know them in the year 40k. He and his legion are pretty much what restored order and saved the Imperium after the Heresy, largely due to him getting stuck in the Galactic South and arriving with an intact force.
Here's the problem I have - nothing Guilliman does during the Great Crusade warrants him being the "BESTEST." He simply is declared the BESTEST PRIMARCH EVAR without explanation.
Because that's how they started the thing. They didn't flesh out the Great Crusade. They didn't even flesh out the Heresy at the start. They just assigned easily recognizable traits and clichees to the progenitors and went with it. Russ was the "wolfiest" just because. No reason given why he wasn't into cats. Fulgrim was the pretty perfectionist.. just because. Alpharius the sneaky one just because (and to show off to the readers that he was such an "unconventional" guy, they made him squabble with Guilliman who represented "conventional" in the setting.. tricky literary tools they employed there. Dorn was the gruffy "blue-collar" guy who spoke his mind.. just because. Raven Guard were good at special ops.. just because. No reason given for any of them. And one was the bestest, because one's gotta have the bestest. Just like Vect is the most devious of Dark Eldar. Got to be one. And Ghaz is the meanest of Ork Warlords. Got to be one who gets the title. And Eldrad is the wisest of Farseers. Someone's gotta be it.
Bleh, I don't want to go point-for-point anymore, but my argument can be summed up thusly:
Premises: 1) Each primarch had a strength in a specific field of war. 2) Guilliman's was either a)tactics or b) strategy. 3) The Codex Astartes includes passages on sieges, special operations, how assault troops are to be used, what sort of equipment a chapter must have, how to organize one's chapter, et cetera. 4) Guilliman wrote the entire codex. 5) The codex, per premise 3, includes things that are not premise 2.
Conclusion: Guilliman was telling other primarchs how to do their jobs, and threatened them with civil war when they said he was wrong.
Look at it this way: 1) I'm a nuclear engineer, and you're a mechanical engineer. 2) I write a book called the BIG BOOK OF ENGINEERING which is going to govern everything about engineering ever. 3) You notice some pretty bad flaws in the Mechanical Engineering section. 4) Knowing that I'm a nuclear engineer, you respectfully come to me saying "Your mechanical engineering section is flawed in these ways..." 5) Rather than amending the document, I threaten to murder you and your children if you do not comply with my BIG BOOK OF ENGINEERING. 6) What little amount you deviate from the proscribed method of Mechanical Engineering makes you aberrant and gets the FBI to scrutinize you.
You're ascribing WAAAY too much in your 'example' to what happened.
- Guilliman is a strategic/tactical/organizational genius. Whatever you want to call it.
- He wrote a brilliant book called the Codex Astartes that reorganized the Legions. It is basically the modern Art of War.
- As part of his plan to keep the Imperium in one piece, he wanted the legions split up into chapters to limit their power.
- He had the biggest army around and knew that he could enforce his edict in order to save the Imperium.
None of this 'murder you and your children' garbage.
pretre wrote:You're ascribing WAAAY too much in your 'example' to what happened.
Guilliman is a strategic/tactical/organizational genius. Whatever you want to call it.
He wrote a brilliant book called the Codex Astartes that reorganized the Legions.
As part of his plan to keep the Imperium in one piece, he wanted the legions split up into chapters to limit their power.
He had the biggest army around and knew that he could enforce his edict in order to save the Imperium.
None of this 'murder you and your children' garbage.
The Codex Astartes did more than reorganize the legions. It also gave very specific proscriptions about the conduct of war in fields in which Guilliman was not specialized, such as assault marines and special operations.
And isn't threatening Dorn and his Legion with a superior number of well-trained and equipped soldiers very similar to me threatening you and your genetic progeny (children, if you will) with war because you disagreed?
The Codex Astartes
With the threat of extinction held at bay, Guilliman turned
to ensuring that such a catastrophe could never happen
again, distilling his formidable wisdom into a mighty tome
known as the Codex Astartes. This sacred text became the
cornerstone upon which the future of the Imperium would
be based.
For all its multitudinous topics, the most lasting and
contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the
existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller
organisations known as Chapters. Though many of his
brother Primarchs initially railed against Guilliman's decree,
almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex.
Thus were the Space Marine Chapters of the Adeptus
Astartes born.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote:The Codex Astartes did more than reorganize the legions. It also gave very specific proscriptions about the conduct of war in fields in which Guilliman was not specialized, such as assault marines and special operations.
And isn't threatening Dorn and his Legion with a superior number of well-trained and equipped soldiers very similar to me threatening you and your genetic progeny (children, if you will) with war because you disagreed?
Yeah, it also gave methods for training and detecting genetic deviancy, something very important in this situation.
In the end, everyone agreed that Guilliman was right. See my quote. Your whole 'threatening with death and dismemberment' crud is just blurring the point.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Codex: Angels of Death, 2nd edition
The Horus Heresy revealed weaknesses in the gene-seed of
several of the early Space Marine Legions, which had been
exacerbated by the need to keep the huge Space Marine
Legions up to strength in the terrible wars being fought at the
time. The powers of Chaos had been able to use the resulting
corruption to turn Horus and many of the Space Marines
under his command against the Emperor. Once Horus had
been defeated it was decided to reorganise the structure of the
forces in the Imperium so that a similar catastrophe could not
happen again in the future.
This work was undertaken almost single-handedly by the
Primarch of the Ultramarines, Roboute Guillirnan, whose
hugely influential work the Codex Astartes laid down the
basic organisation and tactics of the new Space Marine
Chapters. The Codex Astartes decreed that the old Legions be
broken up and reorganised into smaller fighting forces which
would be less of a threat to the Imperium if they became
corrupted.
The Codex Astartes
With the threat of extinction held at bay, Guilliman turned
to ensuring that such a catastrophe could never happen
again, distilling his formidable wisdom into a mighty tome
known as the Codex Astartes. This sacred text became the
cornerstone upon which the future of the Imperium would
be based.
For all its multitudinous topics, the most lasting and
contentious decree of the Codex Astartes was that the
existing Space Marine Legions be broken up into smaller
organisations known as Chapters. Though many of his
brother Primarchs initially railed against Guilliman's decree,
almost all eventually accepted the necessity of the Codex.
Thus were the Space Marine Chapters of the Adeptus
Astartes born.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote:The Codex Astartes did more than reorganize the legions. It also gave very specific proscriptions about the conduct of war in fields in which Guilliman was not specialized, such as assault marines and special operations.
And isn't threatening Dorn and his Legion with a superior number of well-trained and equipped soldiers very similar to me threatening you and your genetic progeny (children, if you will) with war because you disagreed?
Yeah, it also gave methods for training and detecting genetic deviancy, something very important in this situation.
In the end, everyone agreed that Guilliman was right. See my quote. Your whole 'threatening with death and dismemberment' crud is just blurring the point.
Not everyone agreed. The Black Templars, Iron Hands, Space Wolves, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels among others would like a word with you.
EDIT: And I don't know what you mean by blurring the point, but I'm saying that one of the reasons I despise Guilliman is that he tried to enforce his oh-so-great Codex with the use of force rather than reason.
Blood Angels and Dark Angels accepted the Codex Astartes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, not sure that HE forced it on anyone. The High Lords wanted him to come in. He was just the only one who could do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's from Index Astartes, btw.
Where's the 'Guilliman forced me to do it' from?
Here's another one which listed the SW splitting and all the legions not thinking it was a big deal. Also, has BA and DA largely following the Codex. Again, IA.
I buy and enjoy McNeill's UM series of books, I like the theme of the Ultra Marines, I easily rooted for them against the Necrons in Fall of Damnos.
However, in the context of the setting at large, I get pretty sick of them. I want to hear more about the Salamanders, or the Imperial Fists. They have some really great potential that goes unused. Same for the White Scars, or the Iron Hands. I want these other chapters to be more than the Sunstreaker or Wheeljack to Optimus Ultramarine. I don't want them to sit there perpetually like some seldom-seen Ram-man or worse, Orko to the Ulramarines He-man. 40k doesn't need a buch of snow-jobs and Shipwrecks to make sure the Dukes and Beachheads of G.I. Ultramar look good. (Though, I suppose the Salamanders could pass as Barbeque. Hell, I'd even take that, at least he was a regular, instead of being not present or killed off all the time.)
The setting is too good with too much potential to spend SO much time on what is ultimately a relatively small part of it.
So no, I don't hate the Ultramarines. But I do get annoyed with the Ultramar-centric tendancies that are sometimes apparent.
pretre wrote:Blood Angels and Dark Angels accepted the Codex Astartes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, not sure that HE forced it on anyone. The High Lords wanted him to come in. He was just the only one who could do it.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That's from Index Astartes, btw.
Where's the 'Guilliman forced me to do it' from?
Here's another one which listed the SW splitting and all the legions not thinking it was a big deal. Also, has BA and DA largely following the Codex. Again, IA.
In the Index Astartes under Black Templars / Origins, it talks about the standoff between Dorn and Guilliman.
"The Imperial Fists began to be violently persecuted for their supposed heresies." It got to the point that an Imperial Fists strike cruiser (Terrible Angel) was fired upon by the Imperial Navy - that's force if I've ever heard it. Only the imminent destruction of the Imperial Fists by the Iron Warriors saved the day and allowed Guilliman's codex to pass.
Leman Russ and Vulkan with Dorn against Guilliman, Ferrus Manus, and Corax.
EDIT: And I don't know what you mean by blurring the point, but I'm saying that one of the reasons I despise Guilliman is that he tried to enforce his oh-so-great Codex with the use of force rather than reason.
That is precisely not what happended. There were disagreements, as was to be expected. But all Codex-chapters (including IF, DA, BA) accepted the Codex out of their own will, seeing the wisdom in it. Even Dorn, though reluctant or perhaps because of it, became one of the most vocal champions of the Codex.
Also, even though Guilliman "wrote" (perhaps edited) the Codex Astartes, it doesn't mean he rejected the wisdom of those more specialized in certain field. Index Astartes II p. 14 in the chapter on the Imperial Fist notes specifically that the parts of the Codex written on Siegecraft came from Perturabo and Dorn. On the same page, it says that Dorn came around to see the wisdom of the Codex not through force, or reason, but by having a vision of the Emperor himself.
EDIT: And I don't know what you mean by blurring the point, but I'm saying that one of the reasons I despise Guilliman is that he tried to enforce his oh-so-great Codex with the use of force rather than reason.
That is precisely not what happended. There were disagreements, as was to be expected. But all Codex-chapters (including IF, DA, BA) accepted the Codex out of their own will, seeing the wisdom in it. Even Dorn, though reluctant or perhaps because of it, became one of the most vocal champions of the Codex.
Also, even though Guilliman "wrote" (perhaps edited) the Codex Astartes, it doesn't mean he rejected the wisdom of those more specialized in certain field. Index Astartes II p. 14 in the chapter on the Imperial Fist notes specifically that the parts of the Codex written on Siegecraft came from Perturabo and Dorn. On the same page, it says that Dorn came around to see the wisdom of the Codex not through force, or reason, but by having a vision of the Emperor himself.
Except it is precisely what happened.
Before I start, yes it is fortunate that everyone came around. A second civil war would have been gakky.
But I would like to note that, before they came around, Guilliman was prepared to use force (persecuting the Imperial Fists, firing on IF Strike Cruisers, etc) to enforce the teachings of the Codex. In the IA entry, it implies that the Imperium was on the cusp of a second civil war is how bad it got before it got better.
That's no way to treat your brothers or your equals - you do not persecute them for holding different views, and you certainly do not tear your nation apart over the disagreements.
Again, thankfully in 40k there are miracles to avert the war, but still, it was dumb.
EDIT: "as the newly-formed Chapters and the old Legions were preparing for battle, Dorn relented." Page 44, Index Astartes II.
It seems to me that Dorn was the real man, not willing to come to blows over the Codex. But Guilliman was going to enforce its teachings by the bolter if he must.
Are people so butt hurt that their favorites don't get as much fluff support?
Well.. YES! Absolutely. I didn't get into 40k because of Ultramarines. They aren't what made me want to paint and play. I naturally want to delve into the the fluff of the armies I'm most attached and drawn to, and Ultramarines just isn't one of them. *shrugs*
It's pretty easy to feel as though other armies actually get neglected in favour of Ultramarines. I just wish it were more equal.
Before I start, yes it is fortunate that everyone came around. A second civil war would have been gakky.
But I would like to note that, before they came around, Guilliman was prepared to use force (persecuting the Imperial Fists, firing on IF Strike Cruisers, etc) to enforce the teachings of the Codex. In the IA entry, it implies that the Imperium was on the cusp of a second civil war is how bad it got before it got better.
But the Index Astartes notes explicitly that Dorn was "blinded" by revenge and an inability to recognize the changing times. It may be simplistic writing, but Guilliman only "threatened" enough to make Dorn realize the error of his ways.
Index Astartes II wrote:
Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fist because of what the Traitor Legiosn had done. Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. At this time of uncertainty, the Iron Warriors issued a clear challenge to the Imperial Fist by building a formidable fortress and daring them to attack.
Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strenght in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fist had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone [...] The Imperial Fist could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chatpters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. [...] Leaving Phalax, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair.
His doubts gone, Dorn focused on the enemy ahead. Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.
He furthermore explicitly rejected the help of the Ultramarines as he knew he must kill of the "doubting" parts of his own Legion. Compared to Dorn's own actions in "enforcing" the Codex, Guillimans are more than tame. If you oppose to enforcing the Codex by force, you should hate Dorn, not Guilliman.
Zweischneid wrote:
But the Index Astartes notes explicitly that Dorn was "blinded" by revenge and an inability to recognize the changing times. It may be simplistic writing, but Guilliman only "threatened" enough to make Dorn realize the error of his ways.
Index Astartes II wrote:
Dorn was shaken, his quest for redemption had blinded him to changing times. He could not see why humanity would not trust the Imperial Fist because of what the Traitor Legiosn had done. Without the fire of battle to engage them, Rogal Dorn and the Imperial Fists hovered on the brink - the Emperor was gone and now it seemed that their very brotherhood was to be sundered. At this time of uncertainty, the Iron Warriors issued a clear challenge to the Imperial Fist by building a formidable fortress and daring them to attack.
Imperial Fist Chaplains teach that Dorn found strenght in meditation. For seven days he resisted the pain glove until at last he was gifted with a vision of the Emperor. The Imperial Fist had wavered in their faith, thinking the Emperor gone [...] The Imperial Fist could no longer serve the Emperor that had been but they knew they must still be true to the Emperor that was. Rogal Dorn decreed that the Imperial Fists would symbolically enter the pain glove as a Legion and emerge redeemed as a Chapter. Dorn knew that many of his Battle Brothers did not wish to found new Chatpters as the Ultramarines were eager to do. [...] Leaving Phalax, he led these die-hards against the Iron Warriors in their lair.
His doubts gone, Dorn focused on the enemy ahead. Perturabo was a master of fortification whose writings had been retained by Guilliman in his Codex.
I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).
EDIT:
Lemme put it this way for both of you:
I like the Ultramarines chapter. I hate Guilliman. I believe that the Codex Astartes contains many errors and is not infallible. Guilliman seems to believe that this isn't the case, however, and was at the point of arming his troops for civil war before the better man relented. That is all.
Unit1126PLL wrote:I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).
They had just gotten through a war that tore apart the entire universe. A little caution might be in order when 'absent' legions return a little late to the fight and you don't know who's side they were late in arriving to.
I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).
Dorn killed literally thousands of his own Legion to enforce the Codex. And Guilliman firing a few warning shots to get a Primarch renowned for his stubbornness to notice grates with you?
I am inclined to agree with you, but Guilliman's behavior still grates on me. Dorn was wrong and admitted as such to avoid civil war, good on him. But seriously, firing on IF ships? Arming your troops for war against the Space Wolves, Imperial Fists, and Salamanders legions? That's way to much force for simply knocking some sense into one guy who was REALLY ANGRY (but not Angron angry).
Dorn killed literally thousands of his own Legion to enforce the Codex. And Guilliman firing a few warning shots to get a Primarch renowned for his stubbornness to notice grates with you?
Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.
EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.
Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.
EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.
But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.
Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.
EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.
But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.
I'm sorry, my friend. I don't know what to tell you. No, it isn't equal ground. And that's unfortunate. But that isn't going to make me suddenly decide to like Guilliman because it's "fair."
I just don't like him - he grates on me. Even if it is because of poor 1980's era writing - for whatever reason the character just grinds my gears. Hell, it could be because I was molested by a man dressed as an Ultramarine, but whatever reason, just - ugh.
Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.
EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.
But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.
I'm sorry, my friend. I don't know what to tell you. No, it isn't equal ground. And that's unfortunate. But that isn't going to make me suddenly decide to like Guilliman because it's "fair."
I just don't like him - he grates on me. Even if it is because of poor 1980's era writing - for whatever reason the character just grinds my gears. Hell, it could be because I was molested by a man dressed as an Ultramarine, but whatever reason, just - ugh.
Fair enough. I cannot tell you to not hate something if it make your hairs stand for no good reason. But the "character" of Guilliman wasn't designed to aggravate you or other Chapters. Infact, the very "trick" of inventing the "fluff-multiplier" of the Codex Astartes was what allowed the early game to spawn so many different chapters that are now popular among fans everywhere.
Look at other games like Warmachine or whatever. There isn't "1000 factions" just like Khador that you can fill with your own fluff and "make your own", some of which might become cherished parts of the setting in 20-years time. There is only Khador. 40K could have gone the same way. They didn't. They pulled this little trick of "we present you with one "iconic" chapter, but we also include a little background trick to enable and "legitimately" use that one chapter as a template for your own. Infact, we say our universe has 1000 of them and even give a few basic ideas for possible alternatives...
Lo and behold, 25 or so years later, you have fleshed out background for things like IF, Ravenguard, etc.. that dwarfs the amount of background other factions in other wargames get many times over.
In short, if it weren't for the "character" of Guilliman and the background idea of the Codex Astartes, the "Space Marine" part of the 40K universe as we know it today wouldn't exist. Imperial Fist wouldn't exist as a "legitimate faction" just like "yellow Khador" doesn't exist in Warmachine. It would just be a different paint-job in violation of the official fluff.
Yes. I don't much like Dorn either TBQH - pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus were my guys.
EDIT: Also I would hardly call "violent persecution" warning shots.
But "pre-Chaos Perturabo or Ferrus Manus" had the advantage of being largely "fluff-less" for the first 20years of 40K history, being specced out now with some "professionalism". The Guilliman, Russ, Dorn, etc.. stuff was largly drafted by a handfull of amateurs in the 1980s eager to get something, anything off the ground to attach to their budding miniature business. And now they are stuck with some of those early choices. Not really on equal ground there.
I'm sorry, my friend. I don't know what to tell you. No, it isn't equal ground. And that's unfortunate. But that isn't going to make me suddenly decide to like Guilliman because it's "fair."
I just don't like him - he grates on me. Even if it is because of poor 1980's era writing - for whatever reason the character just grinds my gears. Hell, it could be because I was molested by a man dressed as an Ultramarine, but whatever reason, just - ugh.
Fair enough. I cannot tell you to not hate something if it make your hairs stand for no good reason. But the "character" of Guilliman wasn't designed to aggravate you or other Chapters. Infact, the very "trick" of inventing the "fluff-multiplier" of the Codex Astartes was what allowed the early game to spawn so many different chapters that are now popular among fans everywhere.
Look at other games like Warmachine or whatever. There isn't "1000 factions" just like Khador that you can fill with your own fluff and "make your own", some of which might become cherished parts of the setting in 20-years time. There is only Khador. 40K could have gone the same way. They didn't. They pulled this little trick of "we present you with one "iconic" chapter, but we also include a little background trick to enable and "legitimately" use that one chapter as a template for your own. Infact, we say our universe has 1000 of them and even give a few basic ideas for possible alternatives...
Lo and behold, 25 or so years later, you have fleshed out background for things like IF, Ravenguard, etc.. that dwarfs the amount of background other factions in other wargames get many times over.
In short, if it weren't for the "character" of Guilliman and the background idea of the Codex Astartes, the "Space Marine" part of the 40K universe as we know it today would exist.
Oh, I know. I do appreciate what the writers did and love that about the universe. But that doesn't mean I have to like the characters.
After all, I like the story of Superman and his love interest. That doesn't mean I have to like Lois Lane as a person.
Most of us don't have any problem with the idea of the Ultramarines in general, it's GW's insistence on shoving them down our collective throats as the 'perfect Chapter' that everyone else looks up to, regardless of whether we do or not.
As a fan who doesn't even care about SMs in general, I can tell you it's not that hard to see why people hate Ultramarines.
We're constantly inundated with a barrage of "Ultramarines are the greatest chapter ever!!!" Which would be fine if their impressiveness was outlined in any way.
For other chapters, victory is very hard fought. For Ultramarines, they win either miraculously with pure luck, or they win just because, with no explanation given other than they are Ultramarines. In either case, they reach victory with very little effort, no matter the odds... This is a writing atrocity.
Any schoolboy writer knows that a hero has to be flawed to be interesting. From Superman to Riddick, all heroes have weaknesses. Problems that keep you wondering how they'll pull through. A hero who effortlessly overcomes literally every obstacle becomes hideously bland and impossible to identify with. Inevitably the reader begins hoping to see that hero die or become horribly humiliated, (Tell me I'm not the only one who wanted to see Wile E. Coyote tear that damn roadrunner to shreds) only to be disappointed at every turn as the same predictable outcome prevails... The Fall of Damnos almost pulled it off in the 5th ed rulebook, but that was quickly turned around when the book was written with the Ultramarines winning, to the disappointment of 40k fans everywhere.
If GW wants us to accept them as an amazing chapter, they're going to have to give us a few reasons why. If Ultramarines suffered some brutally crushing defeats I honestly think they would be much more admirable.
Right now we're basically told that we're supposed to love them. Some of us blindly do so. The rest of us stand around wondering why.
Archonate wrote:As a fan who doesn't even care about SMs in general, I can tell you it's not that hard to see why people hate Ultramarines.
We're constantly inundated with a barrage of "Ultramarines are the greatest chapter ever!!!" Which would be fine if their impressiveness was outlined in any way.
For other chapters, victory is very hard fought. For Ultramarines, they win either miraculously with pure luck, or they win just because, with no explanation given other than they are Ultramarines. In either case, they reach victory with very little effort, no matter the odds... This is a writing atrocity.
Any schoolboy writer knows that a hero has to be flawed to be interesting. From Superman to Riddick, all heroes have weaknesses. Problems that keep you wondering how they'll pull through. A hero who effortlessly overcomes literally every obstacle becomes hideously bland and impossible to identify with. Inevitably the reader begins hoping to see that hero die or become horribly humiliated, (Tell me I'm not the only one who wanted to see Wile E. Coyote tear that damn roadrunner to shreds) only to be disappointed at every turn as the same predictable outcome prevails... The Fall of Damnos almost pulled it off in the 5th ed rulebook, but that was quickly turned around when the book was written with the Ultramarines winning, to the disappointment of 40k fans everywhere.
If GW wants us to accept them as an amazing chapter, they're going to have to give us a few reasons why. If Ultramarines suffered some brutally crushing defeats I honestly think they would be much more admirable.
Right now we're basically told that we're supposed to love them. Some of us blindly do so. The rest of us stand around wondering why.
As a non-UM fan, I still feel the need to point out that the Ultramarines were humiliated by Horus "Hey guys, look over there! LOL HERESY" & the 'Nids nomming almost everything on their planet.
But yes, in recent canon, they are bland and overpowered. Ward repeatedly emphasising that his chapter is the best chapter is guaranteed to annoy people, plus telling us all that any Astartes chapter who aren't following and being pandering fanboys to Guilleman are doing it wrong.
Archonate wrote:As a fan who doesn't even care about SMs in general, I can tell you it's not that hard to see why people hate Ultramarines.
We're constantly inundated with a barrage of "Ultramarines are the greatest chapter ever!!!" Which would be fine if their impressiveness was outlined in any way.
For other chapters, victory is very hard fought. For Ultramarines, they win either miraculously with pure luck, or they win just because, with no explanation given other than they are Ultramarines. In either case, they reach victory with very little effort, no matter the odds... This is a writing atrocity.
Any schoolboy writer knows that a hero has to be flawed to be interesting. From Superman to Riddick, all heroes have weaknesses. Problems that keep you wondering how they'll pull through. A hero who effortlessly overcomes literally every obstacle becomes hideously bland and impossible to identify with. Inevitably the reader begins hoping to see that hero die or become horribly humiliated, (Tell me I'm not the only one who wanted to see Wile E. Coyote tear that damn roadrunner to shreds) only to be disappointed at every turn as the same predictable outcome prevails... The Fall of Damnos almost pulled it off in the 5th ed rulebook, but that was quickly turned around when the book was written with the Ultramarines winning, to the disappointment of 40k fans everywhere.
If GW wants us to accept them as an amazing chapter, they're going to have to give us a few reasons why. If Ultramarines suffered some brutally crushing defeats I honestly think they would be much more admirable.
Right now we're basically told that we're supposed to love them. Some of us blindly do so. The rest of us stand around wondering why.
I'd like to point you to the big wall of text left by King Pariah, who essentially compiled a list of "every other chapter's more impressive victories against even more impressive odds with even less resources and even more tactical brilliance or determination or whatever" than those won by the Ultramarines. This thread is an exercise in schizophrenia. Half the people hate Ultramarines because "they are too awsome". The other half hates Ultramarines because "they are not awsome enough and all the others smack the Heretics and Xenos even 'arder". What's it gonna be?
Coming from an IG player in my mind the ultramarines seem kinda stuck up in anysince , " ohh we get anything we want when we want with no hard ship ohhh ! "
Zweischneid wrote:I'd like to point you to the big wall of text left by King Pariah, who essentially compiled a list of "every other chapter's more impressive victories against even more impressive odds with even less resources and even more tactical brilliance or determination or whatever" than those won by the Ultramarines. This thread is an exercise in schizophrenia. Half the people hate Ultramarines because "they are too awsome". The other half hates Ultramarines because "they are not awsome enough and all the others smack the Heretics and Xenos even 'arder". What's it gonna be?
You either didn't read my post or you're just trying to twist what I said.
I'm saying that the reason they are so bland and 'not awesome enough' is because they are 'too awesome'... Or rather, they are perfect to the point of bland and boring. (Roadrunner) Then I mentioned that their perfection is never really given justification beyond "just because."
What the wall of text said, in a nutshell, is that other chapters have more personality and examples of hard-earned 'awesomeness' were given. Which illustrates my point wonderfully.
In the DE Codex, the Salamanders get pulled in to Commorragh and have the gak kicked out of them for days before they finally manage to hobble away. A convincing and impressive outcome. Admirable that they even survived to escape at all...
Now I ask, what if they had been Ultramarines? I bet most people in this thread trying to communicate with you would unanimously agree on the answer to that question. The outcome would have the appearance of awesomeness, while being completely unjustifiable. Which, as everybody has been saying, bounces back to a horrible writer with the awesomeness-moderation level of an ambitious 2nd grader.
"My good guys are WAY better than everybody else's good guys!"
"Oh? Why is that?"
"... They just ARE!"
Archonate wrote:
You either didn't read my post or you're just trying to twist what I said.
I'm saying that the reason they are so bland and 'not awesome enough' is because they are 'too awesome'... Or rather, they are perfect to the point of bland and boring. (Roadrunner) Then I mentioned that their perfection is never really given justification beyond "just because."
What the wall of text said, in a nutshell, is that other chapters have more personality and examples of hard-earned 'awesomeness' were given. Which illustrates my point wonderfully.
In the DE Codex, the Salamanders get pulled in to Commorragh and have the gak kicked out of them for days before they finally manage to hobble away. A convincing and impressive outcome. Admirable that they even survived to escape at all...
Now I ask, what if they had been Ultramarines? I bet most people in this thread trying to communicate with you would unanimously agree on the answer to that question. The outcome would have the appearance of awesomeness, while being completely unjustifiable. Which, as everybody has been saying, bounces back to a horrible writer with the awesomeness-moderation level of an ambitious 2nd grader.
"My good guys are WAY better than everybody else's good guys!"
"Oh? Why is that?"
"... They just ARE!"
Well, there is two sides to that. For one, the "must loose" stuff to have credible victory. I don't really see how this is less a feature of the Ultramarines than any other Chapter. Show me one, just one battle described in the Space Marine Codex with Ultramarines of about equal length in text to the Salamander example you so admire, where UMs take less casualties, or less painfull casualities than the Salamanders did in that example? It isn't there. Battle for Maccragge.. full 1st company wiped out and most of the rest. The infamous, much maligned Eldar Battle at the Sepulchre, again, including Calgar having to be carried off the Battle-field a near corpse.
Actually, I find it quite comical that in the 40K universe all battles are always close fought. Doesn't make much sense actually. If you ask me, the setting would be far more credible if there were, at least occasionally, some battles that are not "closely" fought be actually won/lost by a fair margin. I guess on just needs to chalk that down to the "heroic" nature of the setting. But all those "closely" fought battles of Salamanders and Co. (and Ultramarines) strain believability more than actual military superiority in one case or another would.
For the second, and for the Ultramarines lacking "distinquishing" features. Well, I agree. That is their role. There can be no deviation from the standard in a fictional setting if there wouldn't be a standard first.
Have a look at Dan Abnetts reasoning for chosing Ultramarines in the maligned 40K movie (its in the first 2 minutes.. no need to watch the whole thing).
Ultramarines are uniquely identified by being iconically and undiluted Space Marines. THAT is their distinguishing mark.
Without them, you could not have an exception to the rule. There can be no "Space Marines but also Vikings" or "Space Marines but also terribly flawed" or "Space Marines but also breath fire" or "Space Marines but also fallen to Chaos" if you don't introduce "Space Marines" first. And the vehicle GW uses to do that is Ultramarines. All those cherished "special snowflake" traits you cherish so much in all the other Marines are only "special" because you have the Ultramarine-norm (and default-aspiration of all Marines) to deviate from. BL uses them in the same manner. If they want to show the reader how special and "unconventional" Alpharius is, they have him squabble with Guilliman as "representation" of "conventionality". Without Ultramarines or Guilliman as a literary concept, there'd be no Alpha Legion or Alpharius, because they wouldn't have anything to differentiate themselves from. They couldn't be the non-norm without a norm established first. That is the great irony of all people who would "take sides" with chapters that deviate from the norm (which is a ridiculous concept from the start in a fictional setting). Their special snowflake traits wouldn't be special if the weren't defined as "different from the norm" by the means of having the norm established first. If you switch Space Wolves and Ultramarines, it would be the Space Wolves that were seen as lacking "distinquishing features" as people would simply assume Space Vikings as the "norm". Ultramarines would be "distinguished" as "Space Wolves but Romans or but not-Vikings" or something.
Zweischneid wrote:
Ultramarines are uniquely identified by being iconically Space Marines. Without them, you could not have an exception to the rule. There can be no "Space Marines but also Vikings" or "Space Marines but also terribly flawed" or "Space Marines but also breath fire" or "Space Marines but also fallen to Chaos" if you don't introduce "Space Marines" first. And the vehicle GW uses to do that is Ultramarines. All those cherished "special snowflake" traits you cherish so much in all the other Marines are only "special" because you have the Ultramarine-norm (and default-aspiration of all Marines) to deviate from. BL uses them in the same manner. If they want to show the reader how special and "unconventional" Alpharius is, they have him squabble with Guilliman as "representation" of "conventionality". Without Ultramarines or Guilliman as a literary concept, there'd be no Alpha Legion or Alpharius, because they wouldn't have anything to differentiate themselves from. They couldn't be the non-norm without a norm established first. That is the great irony of all people who would "take sides" with chapters that deviate from the norm (which is a ridiculous concept from the start in a fictional setting). Their special snowflake traits wouldn't be special if the weren't defined as "different from the norm" by the means of having the norm established first. If you switch Space Wolves and Ultramarines, it would be the Space Wolves that were seen as lacking "distinquishing features" as people would simply assume Space Vikings as the "norm". Ultramarines would be "distinguished" as "Space Wolves but Romans or but not-Vikings" or something.
See this is all fine. Nobody is bothered by them being iconic and vanilla. There has to be a template. We just don't understand why that template has to be portrayed as superior to all deviations. "Who's better than who?" Should be subjective. Mat Ward shouldn't be trying to tell everybody that UMs are better than everybody else. That should be a matter for the fans to debate.
Central chapter? That's fine.
Iconic? Sure. Somebody has to be.
Vanilla? Absolutely, as you illustrated above.
Better than everybody else? ... Shouldn't we be the judge of that?
Archonate wrote:
[The Ultramarines are]
[the]Central chapter? That's fine.
Iconic? Sure. Somebody has to be.
Vanilla? Absolutely, as you illustrated above.
Better than everybody else? ... Shouldn't we be the judge of that?
