This is just a suggestion, it is not a dogma. I don't take this incredibly seriously. Please stop acting like I'm carving a policy in stone.

This is something that's been at me for awhile, and similar stuff always comes up in German I level classes. I'm also wondering if there's anyone else who gets bothered by this.

I know a lot of people like to make German armies, and that's generally fine (depending on your motivation). However, please do not write sentences or phases in German if you don't know the language. You don't need to have mastered it, but at least have a year of learning experience. Single words and such are fine for names, but sentences for titles are where I see things start to deteriorate into oblivion.

Before I go any farther, I want to mention that I used to have the same problem, so I've been there and know the feeling and the temptation. (and it's been a huge annoyance to correct stuff i've written) I'm also now using pseudo German BTW.

Despite the overwhelming linguistic similarities and structure, there are enormous differences in the grammar, word choice, and word order. Even though it might seem like defeating the problems of translation to use a dictionary for each word rather than using Google Translate, you'll still run into massive errors with case, word order, conjugation, and word choice if you don't have even a basic understanding of the language. In fact, I would say that you're better off just using Google Translate if you don't know German (or any language for that matter) since it will at least have an understanding of case and grammar. I came across a story title (that I corrected) called Stahl Wachter die Sturm. It was a good story, but (please let me know if you feel this way too, or if you agree) the title looked awful and took away from the story. I corrected it to Stähler Wächter des Sturm.

Another thing that you should really consider in the 40k universe is not making your titles and names actually be in German, but have a pseudo Germanic language. For example, here's the Fliegenova Festeskaya that I wrote, adding fake Russian endings to the words "Fliegende Festung" to give an appropriate feel.

Mahtamori wrote:Also, I believe that what we can bring with us from this thread is that when butchering a language you better do it intentionally with regularity and severity or comically - or risk embarrassing situations, for you and/or your would be critic.

I.e. if you do it intentionally most would consider it OK, but if you throw it around as a badge of your ignorance... well...

One thing that I really encourage a lot of people who want to build German armies is to really think deeply and ask yourself why you want to build a German army. You're only asking yourself, and thinking it alone, so you are safe to be totally honest; it will only benefit you to do so. If your desire has anything at all to do with WWII, I (in my own personal opinion (well, supported by some other 40k players too)) strongly recommend that you pick another theme to go with; I would also strongly recommend against trying to modify your interest/motivation in the army to something else. Even if your interest is "historical" and (my favorite buzzword) "nonpolitical," as an amateur historian of the Eastern Front and someone who was part of the WWII gaming culture, I strongly recommend that you chose a different army. A good test that I would recommend that you try if you "pass" my question, is to make a list of every fact that you know about German history and culture that is not related to WWII. It might help to write this down, and you can put it in the fireplace when you're done if you want; it only needs to be with you, if you want. You should try to come up with at least ten facts about German history, crossing out anything related to beer or girls. (seriously) If you know at least ten facts about German history that are completely unrelated to WWII, than I would say you have a good, legitimate interest in German history. If you cannot do this, then I strongly suggest that you go back to reflecting on why you want to make German army.

My advice is intended to the general public, particularly based on by experience with German I students and the whole Germanic military craze. There are plenty of historically interested people out there who totally legitimately want to make a grimdark WWI German army for 40k, and who have no need to question their reasons for doing it. Although, I would say that even if you don't think you need to ask yourself, you should do it anyway.

For those who do make a German army, I again very strongly not "toe the line" with what you can acceptably do, and even if there's something that is totally "just a German thing," you should refrain from using it if it's going to generally have negative associations. For example, my experience is that most people seem to thing the red, white, and black flag is a creation of WWII, so I will refrain from using it despite the fact that it completely predates the war by decades.

One good thing that you can do (and I definitely encourage this if you make your own words) is to talk to someone who is well educated about German history and culture about your themes and army. I did this, though mainly it was to make sure that Scharzenkommandoinnen doesn't mean "dump taking commandos." ...And I really hope I didn't mess up on that last word after my little lecture. It is supposed to be "scharzen."

Brother SRM wrote:To be fair I find Nazi armies in a non-WW2/Weird War 2 game to generally be jarring and in bad taste...

SkaerKrow wrote:The fact that we have someone defending Nazis in this thread gives far more credibility to Ehrenstein's point than anything that he could have said himself. Chesh, do some actual research before you try to call other people's points into question.

Here's my list of German knowledge/interests:

Weimar Republic 1919-1933
German Empire 1971-1918
German scientist, including:
Albert Einstein, Fritz Haber
Von Braun, designer of the Saturn V, also an important American
The current flag was also the flag of the German Confederation and the Weimar Republic
The Weimar military flag was the same as the German Empire flag, but with the Weimar flag in the upper left corner.
Turkish-German culture
Aschkenaz
DDR and FRG

I, for one, Love the mid 40's German era. The Tanks and Airplanes are fascinating. The Panzer VII, was one of the best looking tanks, and the Messerschmitt and Stuka are two of the most aesthetically pleasing aircraft of the WWII Era IMO.

They are my models and i will write whatever I want on them.

Why do you care exactly?

DeathReaper wrote:
Why do you care exactly?

Ditto

Does this mean we are also not advised to play the Germans in Flames of War, either?

You're taking the piss right?

If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

+1 with death reaper, I'll put whatever I wish on my models and do so. I usually choose words that look or sound cool and don't worry about what it actually means.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Does this mean we are also not advised to play the Germans in Flames of War, either?

No. That is a historical game. I have no problem with people playing a Wehrmacht or SS army in a game that is about WWII. 40k is not about WWII, so it makes it more likely that someone would be offended.

However, I would be suspicious someone who played a Wehrmacht FoW army who only seemed to be into it because it had Nazis.

I was only give an advice, you are right, you can do whatever you want.


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Magpie wrote:You're taking the piss right?

If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

+1 with death reaper, I'll put whatever I wish on my models and do so. I usually choose words that look or sound cool and don't worry about what it actually means.

I'm not issuing a ban, only advice. The words Scharzenkommando, Fliegenova, and Festeskaya are all completely made up, goofy words. They are fun. The only time I have a problem is when someone tries to write in actual German when they clearly have no idea how to do it.

I'm not totally sure, but I'm pretty sure that Englander, or the German equivalent is the term that is used.

Magpie wrote:
If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

So does that mean all those bits in the Commando comics where the German soldiers say, "Die Tommy!!!!! AARRRGHHHHHH!" *BOOM* as they get strafed by a Spitfire are also incorrect?!?!

Why are you so obsessed with armies not being based on WW2 germans when you have an entire wiki that's dedicated to fluff clearly based on WW2 germans? Some kind of self-hate?

To the main topic at hand, I actually find that the best way to take german names is to mix them with english into an imaginary word that sounds cool. F.ex: Jagd Lion sounds cooler than Jagd Löwe (which I believe is the german word for lion) IMO
Using pure german unless you are a german is kind of silly in this setting IMO.

So where's your problem with GW butchering latin for "high gothic"?

For reference, I'm kinda multilingual. I speak Latin, German, Japanese, and Persian fluently, and I'm "tourist-fluent" in a smattering of others.

I don't really see the point. You even mentioned in your post that "it only benefits [them]", so why are you raging on it?

I believe it should be enforced that Eldar Players not fluent in Sanscrit may no longer field an Avatar.

I think you are sitting very much in a glass house over there.

While I can understand your sentiment, as I do love words and actually made correcting mistakes my profession for a while, you don't seem to be really close enough to fluent in German to be telling others who are not fluent not to use it. For example, while "Stählerner Wächter des Sturm" is closer to correct than the version you corrected, it is still wrong: "des Sturms" would be correct. And the word choices themselves are actually very good, creating an emotional title - so the guy who wrote the original may not be fluent grammatically, but he already has a knack for style.

On the whole, I think it is a lot more forgiveable (and thus enjoyable) to see German used completely incorrectly as a way to have a few funny names than to see someone try to make up good, correct German names and fail.

Your own "Sturmkrieg" and "Anonymafräulein" are more like examples of the former - they look funky, but as a German I can tell you that they do not make much sense at all. "Sturmkrieg", while a grammatically acceptable combination of nouns, does not really seem to say anything - if it were "Kriegssturm", it would make a lot more sense. That would basically mean "storm of war". But "Sturmkrieg" could at most be used to describe a weather anomaly where two storms, maybe hurricanes, meet and create even more disaster all round. Nobody would actually think it had anything to do with actual war.

Let's not go into what "Anonymafräulein" could mean, aside from being grammatically dubious. And "Scharzenkommandoinnen" isn't even close to being correct. "Scharzen" is no word. Maybe you meant "Schanzen" (=battlements). "Kommando" means command (noun), but the ending "innen" cannot be applied to it.

So if you want to be a German grammar nazi, shoot yourself first, please.

Skylifter wrote:So if you want to be a German grammar nazi, shoot yourself first, please.

Have my babies?

Since you obviously care about those things, it's Stählerner Wächter des Sturms, there is no female version of "Kommando", "scharzen" is not a word and I'm not sure how Aschkenaz is related to the other things you mentioned.

It should also be GDR and FRG(English abbreviations) or DDR and BRD (German abbreviations).

Wernher Von Braun also invented the V2 rocket and didn't exactly stop being a German after the US cleared his file of all his crimes and put him on their NASA projects

Our current flag was also used by the revolutionaries in the German revolution 1848, which, unlike the French revolution, failed miserably because they were basically all shot dead by government troops.

See, I didn't even notice he wrote "Stähler" instead of "Stählerner", too. I was just too occupied with disbelief.

Wow, this thread is getting entertaining now. To the OP, you should not poke your nose into others business like that.

Pacific wrote:

Magpie wrote:
If not I assume a similar ban applies to Germans using incorrect English terms? I mean come ON all those Commando comics where they call us Englanders !

So does that mean all those bits in the Commando comics where the German soldiers say, "Die Tommy!!!!! AARRRGHHHHHH!" *BOOM* as they get strafed by a Spitfire are also incorrect?!?!

No No I'm certain they actually did talk like that, I mean Commando comics don't lie ...... do they?

I was just shirty that "we" are Australians not Englanders

I'd just like to make it crystal clear as well that if I go to one more Tourny and see "gerday" or "kudday" or heaven for bid "good day" written on a Stormraven, instead of the established Australian "G'day" there is going to be BIG trouble.

You trying to tell me that Australia isn't just a British penal colony anymore?

Pull the other one, it stretches..

Zweischneid wrote:I believe it should be enforced that Eldar Players not fluent in Sanscrit may no longer field an Avatar.

No Eldar entirely unless they are fluent in the language of gems, nor Wood Elves unless they know the language of the flowers or IoM unless they are able to scry the skulls for meaning.

There's actually a fairly comprehensive Eldar dictionary around somewhere, and it's got decent grammar rules to the language as well.

Aha, 30 seconds on google found the dictionary: http://thefallenprinces.blogspot.com/2010/08/eldar-dictionary.html

Also, just like high gothic butchers Latin, Eldar kinda butchers Gaelic (something I tried to learn via "language learning tapes" back when I was a celtophile, but only remember enough of now to impress people).

Yeh, I had actually edited that out of my post before posting it as the language didn't appear on the models in that fashion.

A lot more depth to it than the one I had a link to before. But has a couple of extra sentences like "Nil ann ach cleasai, agus tá an iomad measa aige air féin." and "Elthir corannir rhiantha en.". Of course it doesn't go much further than painting the old alchemical symbols on tanks.

For example sulfur.


Phosphorus

Chesh wrote:You trying to tell me that Australia isn't just a British penal colony anymore?

Pull the other one, it stretches..

Hey you lot started as a penal colony too don't forget Amerikana !

Only the minority of the 13 colonies were penal colonies.

Hey...that was only ah...Georgia? What I find amusing is that the Russians in WWII loved to write stuff on their armor. So one time I break out this book with Russian armor slang pictures with some Russian friends and they look at it and say "untranslatable ". I reply WTF. They said that many of the names were probably combinations of names of the crew, or even assembly crew in some cases. They also went on about the level of literacy of the people that did the writing, suggesting spelling errors on some of the more translatable ones. Some were probably some version of onomatopoeia. Mostly they were " made up names" they said. They also could have been pulling my leg. In short, if Russian army soldiers couldn't translate crap their grandfathers scribbled on real tanks, I see no reason why my scifi tanks can not have butchered English, German, Australian, or Fandar.

Otto von Bismarck, Frederick William the Great Elector, Frederick the Great, Helmuth von Moltke, Martin Luther, Gottfried Liebnitz, Max Planck --

Did I pass yet, darling?

When's the German history exam?

Jesus Christ.

Honestly, using "spotty" German (or any other language) in 40k is probably a bit more fluff-accurate than using perfect German . Do we really believe that language will not change in the next 38,000 years? That individual worlds will not display variations on dialect, form or conjugation? The fact that 40k isn't littered with a ton of new slang and common use English language words probably has more to do with the writers wanting to keep the books accessible than it does any sensible creative decision.

As for the suitability of 1940's German era armies in 40k, why not? Warhammer 40k has a space Red Army (an army that committed atrocities in the real world) and space Mongols (an army that committed atrocities in the real world), so the setting clearly isn't shy about drawing inspiration from less savory characters in military history. If someone was to model their entire army as goose-stepping, swastika wearing SS men with bolters, or write army fluff about how their army herds up Eldar and forces them into gas showers, then yes, that person is basically playing Nazis in space and is probably a dodgy sort of character who is going to offend a lot of reasonable people. But equipment patterns like the Stahlhelm and Panzer tank have entered the cultural conscience as something separate from the Holocaust and its perpetrators, perhaps because of their (over)exposure in popular films and video games. Being someone that plays a German-inspired 40k army, I can tell you that my army attracts a lot of attention at the FLGS, and not once has anyone expressed offense by my choice in models, nor has anyone made any sort of Nazi-related comments about my force.

I'm not sure what your beef is, Ehrenstein, but it seems odd that you, who plays an army of Space Germans, would take so much offense at other people playing Space Germans themselves.

Everyone knows that in the grim darkness of the future, everyone has a British accent.

I just thought I'd come into a thread to see someone telling folks not to make Nazi armies. What I got was so much more. To be fair I find Nazi armies in a non-WW2/Weird War 2 game to generally be jarring and in bad taste, but the OP's smugness and Dakka reaction in this thread are solid gold.

TedNugent wrote:Everyone knows that in the grim darkness of the future, everyone has a British accent.

LOL



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Brother SRM wrote:I just thought I'd come into a thread to see someone telling folks not to make Nazi armies. What I got was so much more. To be fair I find Nazi armies in a non-WW2/Weird War 2 game to generally be jarring and in bad taste, but the OP's smugness and Dakka reaction in this thread are solid gold.

Where do you think I went wrong?

Actually, Genghis Khan, and his successor Kublai Kahn weren't as brutal as they've been built up to sound. Most of their "conquests" were diplomatic ones, and Genghis was quite the poet.

Some of his accomplishments:
- Founded a rudimentary postal network
- Introduced paper currency (to my knowledge, other than "military scrip" this was the first actual valued paper currency)
- Fostered religious tolerance in his empire
- Set up a "privilege tax" system, where scientists, doctors, and teachers were tax free
- Followed the example of Alexander the Great and allowed conquered nations to self-govern
- Eliminated starvation and most corruption throughout his empire, leading to China's "golden age"

The "millions upon millions of innocents" thing is a bit of propaganda that's simply taken as fact due to the lack of most evidence to the contrary. While he did defeat countries militarily, that's a far cry from the idea of total war that was espoused by Europeans much later. He was a brilliant military tactician, and his victories on the field were often so decisive that entire nations would surrender without a fight, and that's likely the source of the idea that he was a vicious conqueror that had a throne made of infant skulls and a bag full of heads or something.

Not gonna argue the soviet thing though - Stalin was a horrible, horrible person; although I do caution against judging an entire country based on the actions of one evil leader. If the Cold War hadn't Been A Thing, the USSR wouldn't have collapsed. There was such a drive toward "winning" that war for the soviets that it allowed corruption to flourish in the government, which lead to not only economic collapse, but also mass secession of most of the outer soviet states.

SkaerKrow wrote:Honestly, using "spotty" German (or any other language) in 40k is probably a bit more fluff-accurate than using perfect German . Do we really believe that language will not change in the next 38,000 years? That individual worlds will not display variations on dialect, form or conjugation? The fact that 40k isn't littered with a ton of new slang and common use English language words probably has more to do with the writers wanting to keep the books accessible than it does any sensible creative decision.

I made a distinction in the OP between deliberately modified, incorrect, and goofy German that is designed to be a new language, as opposed to people actually trying to write correctly and being unsuccessful at it. I realize I'm not perfect, but it just seems off to me when someone tries to write a sentence or so in an attempted full translation. Even if they got it perfect, I would prefer they make up words for 40k, but I don't feel strongly either way.

SkaerKrow wrote:As for the suitability of 1940's German era armies in 40k, why not? Warhammer 40k has a space Red Army (an army that committed atrocities in the real world) and space Mongols (an army that committed atrocities in the real world), so the setting clearly isn't shy about drawing inspiration from less savory characters in military history. If someone was to model their entire army as goose-stepping, swastika wearing SS men with bolters, or write army fluff about how their army herds up Eldar and forces them into gas showers, then yes, that person is basically playing Nazis in space and is probably a dodgy sort of character who is going to offend a lot of reasonable people. But equipment patterns like the Stahlhelm and Panzer tank have entered the cultural conscience as something separate from the Holocaust and its perpetrators, perhaps because of their (over)exposure in popular films and video games. Being someone that plays a German-inspired 40k army, I can tell you that my army attracts a lot of attention at the FLGS, and not once has anyone expressed offense by my choice in models, nor has anyone made any sort of Nazi-related comments about my force.

The thing is that those armies aren't offensive in western culture. i agree with the points you mentioned above. The only thing I really have an issue with is when people come out and deliberately make a Wehrmacht, as opposed to generic German armies.

SkaerKrow wrote:I'm not sure what your beef is, Ehrenstein, but it seems odd that you, who plays an army of Space Germans, would take so much offense at other people playing Space Germans themselves.

The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

TedNugent wrote:Jesus Christ.

Wasn't he Nazarean ? Certainly not German.

He was Jewish, and thus hated by the ostensibly Christian Adolf. Which is kind of ironic, if you think about it.

Well, the Nazareans tried to toss him off a cliff, so I think it's more like how George Handel was an.... Englander.

Jewish is a religion not a nationality.

When did JC get chucked off a cliff?

Jewish is a nationality. Judaism is the religion.

dude i think this thread can be summed up very simply

Kümmere dich um deine eigenen Angelegenheiten (mind your own buisness)

if i butchered the german please forgive me. I only get to practice with my brother.

Simply put if its not offensive let them do what they want.

Magpie wrote:When did JC get chucked off a cliff?

At the end of Tekken, after Kazuya won the King of Iron Fist tournament.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

captain collius wrote:dude i think this thread can be summed up very simply

Kümmere dich um deine eigenen Angelegenheiten (mind your own buisness)

if i butchered the german please forgive me. I only get to practice with my brother.

Simply put if its not offensive let them do what they want.

Don't worry, I'm in the same boat as you. I'm not trying to invade anyone's hobby, just trying to give advice. My word is not absolute, and I don't pretend it to be.

I believe a nation is required for a nationality and that the word you're looking for is "ethnicity".

Also, I believe that what we can bring with us from this thread is that when butchering a language you better do it intentionally with regularity and severity or comically - or risk embarrassing situations, for you and/or your would be critic.

I.e. if you do it intentionally most would consider it OK, but if you throw it around as a badge of your ignorance... well...

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

The Jews are a nation, even if they don't have a "homeland" that's uncontested.

Hell, I had a big long post typed up, but Wikipedia explains it better than I can:

Wikipedia wrote:A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, and/or history.[1] In this definition, a nation has no physical borders. However, it can also refer to people who share a common territory and government (for example the inhabitants of a sovereign state) irrespective of their ethnic make-up.[2][3] In international relations, nation can refer to a country or sovereign state.[1] The word nation can more specifically refer to people of North American Indians, such as the Cherokee Nation that prefer this term over the contested term tribe.

The Jewish people are all of the above: an ethnicity, a nation, and a religion.

I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

Hunterindarkness wrote: I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

Hunterindarkness fabricates a heroic sentimental. I am agreement shoelace.

Hunterindarkness wrote: I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

You're very limited in how you can mess it up. Knowing it as a native language makes it hard, and the nature of the language makes it harder. For one thing, there is only "the" and no other forms of it, meaning that whatever case or (in very rare cases) gender you have, "the" is always the same.

I have no problem with people using made up words that sound German. GW uses it's own pseudo-latin in place of High Gothic for the game, why can't we use our own pseudo languages?

Prime example Adeptus Astartes isn't actually latin, just sounds like latin, isn't hard to pronounce and sounds like it might mean space marine.

As long as I am not speaking to Germans and trying to hold a conversation (Unlike my poor Spanish my wife has forbidden me from trying to use) I really do not see an issue.
I use German models, not that I am using German words but if I do, eh so what? who is to say German is the same in 40k anyhow, its not like English is the same it was in the 15 or 1600's anyhow. Things change and in the end its a hobby and I am not a linguist.

Does it really mater if its, German, psudo-german or mangled German if you and the guys you play with are not German speakers?


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Hunterindarkness wrote:As long as I am not speaking to Germans and trying to hold a conversation (Unlike my poor Spanish my wife has forbidden me from trying to use) I really do not see an issue.I use German models, not that I am using German words but if I do, eh so what? who is to say German is the same in 40k anyhow, its not like English is the same it was in the 15 or 1600's anyhow. Things change and in the end its a hobby and I am not a linguist.

Does it really mater if its, German, psudo-german or mangled German if you and the guys you play with are not German speakers?

CrashCanuck wrote:I have no problem with people using made up words that sound German. GW uses it's own pseudo-latin in place of High Gothic for the game, why can't we use our own pseudo languages?

Prime example Adeptus Astartes isn't actually latin, just sounds like latin, isn't hard to pronounce and sounds like it might mean space marine.

YES!

This is what I support!


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Hunterindarkness wrote:As long as I am not speaking to Germans and trying to hold a conversation (Unlike my poor Spanish my wife has forbidden me from trying to use) I really do not see an issue.
I use German models, not that I am using German words but if I do, eh so what? who is to say German is the same in 40k anyhow, its not like English is the same it was in the 15 or 1600's anyhow. Things change and in the end its a hobby and I am not a linguist.

Does it really mater if its, German, psudo-german or mangled German if you and the guys you play with are not German speakers?

I guess in that case it doesn't but cut and paste dictionary direct translations stand out to anyone from the most basic level German class. It's probably really not a big deal. You guys seem to think I'm making a way bigger deal about this than I am.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
This is the thought process I see happening. If anyone else has a background in social psychology, please add your thoughts.

I play a Wehrmacht army
The Wehrmacht is bad
I am bad
I am not bad
How is it that I am not bad
The Wehrmacht must not be bad

I'm also not going to generalize and say that everyone does this, and I am sure that there are people who have an understanding of the Wehrmacht who play such armies, and who do not worry about what it says about themselves. Maybe my concern is false, but it's just something I see as potential.

I doubt you need a background in social psychology to add thoughts to your post.

As its pretty way off, because those games, especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.
Plus no army itself is bad, its always the members of it and you shouldn't claim such high horse of "studies" if all you got as possible thought process is your theory of people completly identifiying themselves with the army they play.
They don't usually.
There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

Hunterindarkness wrote: I butcher English and it is my native language, so why should German be special

Not special, but a international forum like dakka could provide help if you are interested to have something corrected.
Feel free to butcher , tough.

1hadhq wrote:

Feel free to butcher , tough.

I always do, it is far less butchered when typing as it is kinda hard to totally mangle pronunciation while typing, possible but harder to do. But it is a talent I seem to have.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

You just quoted yourself and answered like it was somebody else, is there more than one person controlling the Ehrenstein user?

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

Again, you have a wiki that is clearly taking inspiration from WW2 germans...

1hadhq wrote:
especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.

There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

I understand that someone has to play "that army" in historical games. I have no problem with it. 40k is not not a historical game.

And it doesn't bother me. The only thing that "bothers" me is seeing someone doing something potentially self sabotaging, like playing a Nazi army is a game of the 41st millennium. If the people at the hobby store think it's alright, than by all means, do it. I'm just giving advice for how to avoid socially sabotaging yourself to people who might need it.


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Illumini wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:The only issue I have is that I feel it degrades the memory of Wehrmacht war crimes, but it may not be really that different from space Mongols or space Communists.

I think that you can blame everything from Hogan's Heroes to Wolfenstein 3D to Call of Duty for doing that already.

You just quoted yourself and answered like it was somebody else, is there more than one person controlling the Ehrenstein user?

That was a glitch in the forum. Someone else posted that. Sorry.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:
So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

Again, you have a wiki that is clearly taking inspiration from WW2 germans...

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.

There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

I understand that someone has to play "that army" in historical games. I have no problem with it. 40k is not not a historical game.

And it doesn't bother me. The only thing that "bothers" me is seeing someone doing something potentially self sabotaging, like playing a Nazi army is a game of the 41st millennium. If the people at the hobby store think it's alright, than by all means, do it. I'm just giving advice for how to avoid socially sabotaging yourself to people who might need it.

So, all i want to know is, can i play zhe 8. Imperial Ausrotterregiment under Colonel Kriegsfreude from the planet Blitzkrieg?

Actually Ludwig/Ludvig is Germanic for Louis. Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, heck even Icelandic are Germanic languages. I'm a bit skeptical though about a guy with little experience with the German language making fluff about a Germanic Sektor though.

KingDeath wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
especially TT games tend to have 2 sides and someone has to play "that" army.

There is no need to justify your choice. But it would be nice if someone could stop using German if it bothers him so much.
Especially the OP.

I understand that someone has to play "that army" in historical games. I have no problem with it. 40k is not not a historical game.

And it doesn't bother me. The only thing that "bothers" me is seeing someone doing something potentially self sabotaging, like playing a Nazi army is a game of the 41st millennium. If the people at the hobby store think it's alright, than by all means, do it. I'm just giving advice for how to avoid socially sabotaging yourself to people who might need it.

So, all i want to know is, can i play zhe 8. Imperial Ausrotterregiment under Colonel Kriegsfreude from the planet Blitzkrieg?

Why are you asking me? I don't decide these things.

Being from the small german town of Dachau (yes its a town) and moving to amercia when I was alot young it took time to learn english so we dealt with this. The fact of the matter is that some people think of germany as nazis even in the year 2012 as well as look at the nazis in awe at the military stature that they displayed in the war. You just have to know that you will see this alot. I painting "iron within iron without" in latin on my iron warriors. Just get used to misspelling my still do with english. If they think you are a nazi for using german just call them a bigot or redneck :p I recommend the first of the two.


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captain collius wrote:dude i think this thread can be summed up very simply

Kümmere dich um deine eigenen Angelegenheiten (mind your own buisness)

if i butchered the german please forgive me. I only get to practice with my brother.

Simply put if its not offensive let them do what they want.

Not bad t all how long have you been learning? Cn you pronounce out loud correctly is the big question.

I would personally prefer the Sturmkrieg Sektor to focus on Germany anno 1918, not anything else. Then again I'm quite critical of the whole shablang as of now, but that has been made clear to the author.

If I were to decide the Sektor should use Germanized English. Like Jawohl, heil, jah, nein, aufweiderstien and such. Too much and you need a bloody dictionary.

I do love when people get on their high horse over silly things. It is one thing to create a 40k army covered in swastikas that will offend plenty of people are are sensitive to things like that. It is completely different to create a 40k army using German WWII vehicles and colorings with swastikas. For another thing people are REALLY offended by any kind of WWII related imagery really won't care if the game is "historical" or not if they swastikas represented on the minis. Many in the world are completely offended by seeing a swastika represented anywhere for whatever purpose. Even though the basic symbol has been around for millennia, the nazis "broke" it.

As for the german language issues you are having, why do you care what other people put on their minis? Who cares if they are massacreing a language that is not their own to put some cool looking/sounding slogans on their banners and the like. Get over it and you'll be happier. I actually know Japanese and the Kanji alphabet, but I am not really going out of my way for grammatical correctness on a new 40k rengades army I am building that uses a bunch of WWII Japanese and US vehicles/tanks and has them marked in chaos symbols and various Kanji symbols. If it looks cool I use it whether the grammar is "correct" or not.

Those things said my first 40k Imperial Guard army had a german Wermacht theme to it. The troops were painted in a similar grey/green color with histori colors used on belts, straps and accutrements. The armored vehicles were all 1/35 scale german model kits. PZIII and IV for Leman Russ tanks, PZIIs and pZ38ts for use as chimera, a hornisse SP '88 for a basilisk, a converted braumbar as a Griffon, and even a StuG III converted to be a hellhound. The army was well painted and historically done. I've long been an amateur WWII historian and had modeled WWII tanks, vehicles and troops in 1/35 scale for most of my life. This was a way for me to combine two parts of my hobby since the 1/35 scale armor kits are just a much bigger joy to build and much more highly detailed than GW vehicle kits are. No one got offended by my army or said anything negative about it ever. I eventually sold it off in pieces to raise cash to build a different army.

My current chaos renegades army is using WWII Japanese and US tank and vehicle kits in 1/35 as the basis for the armored part of the force. Should I panic about using those too, as someone might be offended by then or is it only "german" themed armies that are negative and bad?

Yes covering your army in swastikas is going to bother some people, but that doesn't mean we all need a lecture in using a "german theme" in our armies outside of historical games...

Nurgle wrote:Being from the small german town of Dachau (yes its a town) and moving to amercia when I was alot young it took time to learn english so we dealt with this. The fact of the matter is that some people think of germany as nazis even in the year 2012 as well as look at the nazis in awe at the military stature that they displayed in the war. You just have to know that you will see this alot. I painting "iron within iron without" in latin on my iron warriors. Just get used to misspelling my still do with english. If they think you are a nazi for using german just call them a bigot or redneck :p I recommend the first of the two.

I agree. I've got **** from people who ignorantly say "dehr... that looks leik a Nazi armee... dehr!" It's clear that those people haven't even bothered to read it, so yeah, it would be accurate for me to call them bigoted and prejudiced, but I tend to step down from counter trolling and just ignore it.

I feel that German armies are fine, but deliberately creating a Nazi themed army is in poor taste. I will state that I can't stop anyone, and I won't even try to stop anyone. If your gaming community thinks that's ok, than you have nothing to worry about.


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Beaviz81 wrote:I would personally prefer the Sturmkrieg Sektor to focus on Germany anno 1918, not anything else. Then again I'm quite critical of the whole shablang as of now, but that has been made clear to the author.

If I were to decide the Sektor should use Germanized English. Like Jawohl, heil, jah, nein, aufweiderstien and such. Too much and you need a bloody dictionary.

I intend for the WWI German Empire theme to be predominant. However, and this is on the advice of a lot of other people, I'm going to have more diverse sub themes with many different sub themes on individual words to keep things interesting, and to give people an incentive to read about every world.

To the OP.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Never, ever, in the existence of ever, shall I never, ever positively never not use German themed stuff in 40k.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I would only say that it does that in the sense that you get a lot of kiddies who think it's cool to play on the Nazi team, but Call of Duty, especially World at War, I think does a decent job of showing the brutality of the Germans.

I've studied psychology, and the thing I worry about with people who play as the Wehrmacht who also don't have a good historical understanding of them is the self justification that they go through. Basically, we need to feel good about ourselves, and we need to feel that we are good and in the right. When something challenges that, we end up with cognative dissonance. To restore our "good feeling" about ourselves, we must justify why we are in the right. It's much easier to adapt our reality than it is to admit we are in the wrong, or to adapt our schema.

So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

This is the thought process I see happening. If anyone else has a background in social psychology, please add your thoughts.

I play a Wehrmacht army
The Wehrmacht is bad
I am bad
I am not bad
How is it that I am not bad
The Wehrmacht must not be bad

I'm also not going to generalize and say that everyone does this, and I am sure that there are people who have an understanding of the Wehrmacht who play such armies, and who do not worry about what it says about themselves. Maybe my concern is false, but it's just something I see as potential.

The simple fact is that there are *NO* good guys in war. ALL sides do horrible things in the name of nationalistic furvor, orders or just plain trying to survive the war. Your crazy psychology is pretty off base too. If a person is establishing their worth as a human being on an army of little metal and plastic miniatures they have more significant problems that trying to justify that the wermacht were a bunch of nice guys.

The real thought process of a rational person:
I play a Wermacht army
It is a game
I am not a representative of the wermacht
It is a game.
Let's play!

Your psychology is pretty over dramatized and as I said would more likely come from someone who has some real mental issues that ultimately have nothing to do with their playing of a wermacht army in the first place. Yes *some* people play and paint their forces in wermacht or SS colors because they are deluded and misguided and think they are awesome. Most, though, do it to bring an historical aspect into their fantasy gaming and I see it no different than painting up your marines in offwhite with red crusader crosses and markings all over them. Not everyone is doing it and it could just look really cool when all completely and painted.

Skriker

blood reaper wrote:To the OP.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Never, ever, in the existence of ever, shall I never, ever positively never not use German themed stuff in 40k.

Once again, there is nowhere where I established any sort of prohibition on German symbolism. You all are the only ones getting worked up about this, not me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Skriker wrote:I do love when people get on their high horse over silly things. It is one thing to create a 40k army covered in swastikas that will offend plenty of people are are sensitive to things like that. It is completely different to create a 40k army using German WWII vehicles and colorings with swastikas. For another thing people are REALLY offended by any kind of WWII related imagery really won't care if the game is "historical" or not if they swastikas represented on the minis. Many in the world are completely offended by seeing a swastika represented anywhere for whatever purpose. Even though the basic symbol has been around for millennia, the nazis "broke" it.

As for the german language issues you are having, why do you care what other people put on their minis? Who cares if they are massacreing a language that is not their own to put some cool looking/sounding slogans on their banners and the like. Get over it and you'll be happier. I actually know Japanese and the Kanji alphabet, but I am not really going out of my way for grammatical correctness on a new 40k rengades army I am building that uses a bunch of WWII Japanese and US vehicles/tanks and has them marked in chaos symbols and various Kanji symbols. If it looks cool I use it whether the grammar is "correct" or not.

Those things said my first 40k Imperial Guard army had a german Wermacht theme to it. The troops were painted in a similar grey/green color with histori colors used on belts, straps and accutrements. The armored vehicles were all 1/35 scale german model kits. PZIII and IV for Leman Russ tanks, PZIIs and pZ38ts for use as chimera, a hornisse SP '88 for a basilisk, a converted braumbar as a Griffon, and even a StuG III converted to be a hellhound. The army was well painted and historically done. I've long been an amateur WWII historian and had modeled WWII tanks, vehicles and troops in 1/35 scale for most of my life. This was a way for me to combine two parts of my hobby since the 1/35 scale armor kits are just a much bigger joy to build and much more highly detailed than GW vehicle kits are. No one got offended by my army or said anything negative about it ever. I eventually sold it off in pieces to raise cash to build a different army.

My current chaos renegades army is using WWII Japanese and US tank and vehicle kits in 1/35 as the basis for the armored part of the force. Should I panic about using those too, as someone might be offended by then or is it only "german" themed armies that are negative and bad?

Yes covering your army in swastikas is going to bother some people, but that doesn't mean we all need a lecture in using a "german theme" in our armies outside of historical games...

As an amateur historian of WWII, I think that making a WWII based army is alright. Generally, I would prefer that it not be a carbon copy of a real army since it is fantasy, but it doesn't really matter to me. People can do whatever they want. I have a friend who planned to make armies with themes that were entirely humorous. I thought it was funny and didn't nerd rage over the fact that it's not grimdark.


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Skriker wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I would only say that it does that in the sense that you get a lot of kiddies who think it's cool to play on the Nazi team, but Call of Duty, especially World at War, I think does a decent job of showing the brutality of the Germans.

I've studied psychology, and the thing I worry about with people who play as the Wehrmacht who also don't have a good historical understanding of them is the self justification that they go through. Basically, we need to feel good about ourselves, and we need to feel that we are good and in the right. When something challenges that, we end up with cognative dissonance. To restore our "good feeling" about ourselves, we must justify why we are in the right. It's much easier to adapt our reality than it is to admit we are in the wrong, or to adapt our schema.

So what I see having the potential to happen is that people would end up rationalizing to themselves that the Wehrmacht wasn't that bad. I've already seen this with high school "Wehrmacht fan clubs" that have disclaimers something like this "Yes the German army did some bad things, but they had the coolest army ever." Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but I personally disagree with romanticizing the Wehrmacht like that.

This is the thought process I see happening. If anyone else has a background in social psychology, please add your thoughts.

I play a Wehrmacht army
The Wehrmacht is bad
I am bad
I am not bad
How is it that I am not bad
The Wehrmacht must not be bad

I'm also not going to generalize and say that everyone does this, and I am sure that there are people who have an understanding of the Wehrmacht who play such armies, and who do not worry about what it says about themselves. Maybe my concern is false, but it's just something I see as potential.

The simple fact is that there are *NO* good guys in war. ALL sides do horrible things in the name of nationalistic furvor, orders or just plain trying to survive the war. Your crazy psychology is pretty off base too. If a person is establishing their worth as a human being on an army of little metal and plastic miniatures they have more significant problems that trying to justify that the wermacht were a bunch of nice guys.

The real thought process of a rational person:
I play a Wermacht army
It is a game
I am not a representative of the wermacht
It is a game.
Let's play!

Your psychology is pretty over dramatized and as I said would more likely come from someone who has some real mental issues that ultimately have nothing to do with their playing of a wermacht army in the first place. Yes *some* people play and paint their forces in wermacht or SS colors because they are deluded and misguided and think they are awesome. Most, though, do it to bring an historical aspect into their fantasy gaming and I see it no different than painting up your marines in offwhite with red crusader crosses and markings all over them. Not everyone is doing it and it could just look really cool when all completely and painted.

Skriker

I think you're probably right. I probably did get (I'm not quite sure for the word) over simplified and a bit of an extreme scenario. It's also really quite theoretical. It's also a problem of the hammer seeing every problem as a nail.

If I were to play against someone who plays a Wehrmacht army, I probably won't care, as you say. I just don't condone it. Especially someone who is actually interested in the historical aspects of the Wehrmacht is playing. The group of people I'm only looking out for are the kids who don't give a bolter about history and think that they're really cool and bad*** because they play a Nazi army. I wouldn't give those people a second thought; I just think they should be aware of the social consequences of their actions.


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I have a friend who wants to do a carbon copy of the Soviet Union BTW. Yes, I let him know it doesn't really fit into a futuristic fantasy world, but I still think it's fun and I don't nerd rage over it. It's actually coming really well.

That's pretty much my thought on historical carbon copy armies. I wouldn't make an exact copy of an army from one time period, but I don't have anything against people who do.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:I think you're probably right. I probably did get (I'm not quite sure for the word) over simplified and a bit of an extreme scenario. It's also really quite theoretical. It's also a problem of the hammer seeing every problem as a nail.

If I were to play against someone who plays a Wehrmacht army, I probably won't care, as you say. I just don't condone it. Especially someone who is actually interested in the historical aspects of the Wehrmacht is playing. The group of people I'm only looking out for are the kids who don't give a bolter about history and think that they're really cool and bad*** because they play a Nazi army. I wouldn't give those people a second thought; I just think they should be aware of the social consequences of their actions.

Wow how many posts can one person quote in a single response message??

Yeah the kids who do it because they think it makes them cool are dumb for sure, but probably aren't the audience you are reaching here, hence all the responses you've gotten. If they don't understand the ramifications of nazifying their army *before* they do it, it is highly likely that they will feel the pain *after* they do it. Either way it will be a learning experience for them. With luck they are just being stupid and aren't actually little neo-nazis in training and will eventually learn that shock value really doesn't have any value at all...

Skriker

Yeah, they were "automatically appended." It's better than constant multi posts and getting yelled at by the mods...

Yeah, that's definitely the case. Hopefully it means that the people here aren't the kind of people who I'm addressing.

I would say that they probably would learn, eventually at least. I was never really in that stage, but I understand where they're coming from. I always had the sense (and I never really wanted to anyway) to not make Sturmkrieg a Nazi army. It has changed somewhat though; the original Scharzenkommando uniforms (to the German who nerd raged, I [b[said in the OP[/i] that the word Scharzenkommando was made up, and specifically ensured that it was made up) have changed a lot within the past four years.

I think becoming a complete pariah would definitely show them that people don't exactly take well to arbitrarily Nazified armies. To that end, I think GW store communities would be a lot more rejecting than FLGS, where people commonly play historical games. In a GW, they'd stand out way more. I'm pretty sure that all GW stores have a prohibition on the swastika too.

I generally don't worry about whether people are actually Nazis, as long as their army is blatantly a Nazi army. Sounds strange, but if it's obvious, it's probably just some high school kiddie who's in the "Nazis had cool weapons and uniforms phase" whereas an actual Neo Nazi probably would go for something more Neo Nazish.

To give an example, I put this army down to immaturity,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

Whereas I have serious political concerns about this guy who build this army:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

The fact that it isn't a WWII army, has constant Nordic symbolism, and interspersed vague Nazi themes is what causes the alarm for me.

And your reasons for starting this tread, except stepping on the toes of gamers? How someone paint & moddel their army is none of your concern really.

So to make it short, Mind your own damned buisnins boy!

@Inquisitor Ehrenstein- Your obviously too sensitive to people's Wehrmacht paint schemes, you obviously are annoyed by the fact someone could think the uniform of a force considered evil was 'cool' is wrong.

The fact is, if they plastered swastikas, anti Jewish, etc. then they're is a sense of immorality. However, basing an army of a period of time is not wrong, and your criticism is overly sensitive.

CrashCanuck wrote:

Prime example Adeptus Astartes isn't actually latin, just sounds like latin, isn't hard to pronounce and sounds like it might mean space marine.

Actually, Adeptus is a real Latin word. It's the perfect participle of adipīscor and means overtaken or obtained.

If nothing else you could always go to the outrageously Holy Roman Empire-inspired Empire army from WHFB.

Landschneckt, anyone?

As someone who speaks german as a native language and had latin for about 5 years in school I get to see
fethed up names, titles and slogans all the time. Do I care? Nope.
But with the whole WWII Theme I really got a problem. I mean.. Isn't the whole Empire thing with it's xenophobic
attitude allready enough "nazi" to work with?

I personaly hate war, violence and stupid ideas like Rassentrennung in real life, so I don't want my games ruined by that too.
(Fictional war and violance against fictonal orks is ok so )

For the pseudo-german:
Feel free to write me a pn for translation, I can prevent mistakes like OPs if desired

TedNugent wrote:If nothing else you could always go to the outrageously Holy Roman Empire-inspired Empire army from WHFB.

Landschneckt, anyone?

You mean Landsknecht. "Landschneckt" isn't a word, but if I were to translate it to English, it would look like this: [he/she/it is] landsnailing. Because Schnecke is German for snail and the t at the end could be third person singular present tense or present progressive.

So in short: funny!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page
Wow now that was some awesome painting.

Sure if your easilly offended the imagary on some of those could be troubling but serious political concern?

Its all a matter of opinion, I have a napoleonic British theme, based on an army that over time carved out an empire in a pretty brutal way. Some could take offense to it, im not going to stop but I can appreciate the opinion. The post just seems a little pointless, as it seems to be simply saying I dont like Nazi related armies and bad German grammer.

As to the German army and SS I would have no issue with them, I believe as both an historical and sci fi gamer one can appreciate the fighting skills and look of an army whilst not agreeing with its actions or political views.

lampy wrote:

Its all a matter of opinion, I have a napoleonic British theme, based on an army that over time carved out an empire in a pretty brutal way. Some could take offense to it, im not going to stop but I can appreciate the opinion.
As to the German army and SS I would have no issue with them, I believe as both an historical and sci fi gamer one can appreciate the fighting skills and look of an army whilst not agreeing with its actions or political views.

It´s a difference! I am sure no ones grandparents got murdered by Napoleon.
Maybe in the US it´s different, but when I would be to play against an literal SS army, I would hit that player in the face.

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

The point im making is that themed armies may offend someone whatever the era the British army of the 1800's and onwards carried out some very bloody wars in India,Africa. Burma etc some people in those areas find reminders of that era offensive. Im actually British but for some reason says US. As it happens Members of my family fought and died in both wars against Germany but i still wouldnt have a problem as long as the player didnt start spouting Nazi ideals at me over the table!
Personally id find someone punching a guy in the face for the paint job on his army more offensive than anything he puts on his models, I don't have to play him and can just walk away.

Ventusgermany wrote:

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

Ventusgermany wrote:As someone who speaks german as a native language and had latin for about 5 years in school I get to see
fethed up names, titles and slogans all the time. Do I care? Nope.
But with the whole WWII Theme I really got a problem. I mean.. Isn't the whole Empire thing with it's xenophobic
attitude allready enough "nazi" to work with?

I personaly hate war, violence and stupid ideas like Rassentrennung in real life, so I don't want my games ruined by that too.
(Fictional war and violance against fictonal orks is ok so )

For the pseudo-german:
Feel free to write me a pn for translation, I can prevent mistakes like OPs if desired

Thanks. Some of the differences I might leave, but anything that's clearly a mistake, I would want to correct.


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Skylifter wrote:

Ventusgermany wrote:

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

He has an exact copy of the Nazi eagle on one of the Bulldozer, only without the swastika.

Skylifter wrote:
Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

Thor, and the whole nordish mythology as a whole, were used and the ideas behind it where corrupted back then. Thor himself has nothing to do with it, thats right, but when he is on the same tank, that has a red flag, with a white circle, and a black cross on it, it´s clearly shown, that the theme of that army isn´t nordish pagans, but nazis.

Nazi zombies is a different story, I agree with you there, and is something that I find very funny too.

So, you want to limit peoples right to paint the army in a paint scheme of their liking as well as tell them what to write and what not to write? Im failry sure that there exists a political ideology that strives to do just that...whats it called again? Yeah, thats right, fascism.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:

Ventusgermany wrote:

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Please leave that poor old Nordic god out of the equation. He really has nothing to do with Nazis, not even when someone paints him on the side of an otherwise very nazi-ish army. Although I didn't even think it was overdone on that one, and there weren't any swastikas, as far as I could see.

While I agree that creating an army that actually represents a Nazi army and glorifies their ideology would be in bad taste and the example of a supposedly noble Space Marine army with swastikas and red flags would be one of those, using a Nazi theme on something that is clearly not meant to glorify them - like a Nazi zombie army, for example - would be absolutely fine by me, even funny. Some are more sensitive to things like that, some less.

He has an exact copy of the Nazi eagle on one of the Bulldozer, only without the swastika.

Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:To give an example, I put this army down to immaturity,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

Whereas I have serious political concerns about this guy who build this army:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

The fact that it isn't a WWII army, has constant Nordic symbolism, and interspersed vague Nazi themes is what causes the alarm for me.

Not sure I share much concern of either of those. The 2nd army especially is themed on a number of different things spelled out by the creator: WFB Empire (which is heavily germanic in its feel), WWII german forces and thor. So I am unsurprised by the nordic symbolism in the least. Also you can see the WW2 influence, without it being a slap in the face to anyone who looks at it by covering things in swastikas. Methinks you are reading a lot more into it than is intended. I look at it and see a dedicated modeller who went with a combined theme and carried it through with some amazing conversions added into the mix. I guess I just look at it as an army for a sci-fi game and don't try to put any further weight to the imagery than that. I will say that some of the banners do look like WWII recruitment and propaganda posters, but all sides used similar kind of imagery in the posters of the period.

Either way I do think you are worried about nothing here, just my opinion.

Skriker


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Ventusgermany wrote:It´s a difference! I am sure no ones grandparents got murdered by Napoleon.
Maybe in the US it´s different, but when I would be to play against an literal SS army, I would hit that player in the face.

With games like flames of war it´s something different, these are historical games and do not glorify themes. With a noble spacemarine army with waving swatiskas and
fricking portraits of Thor on the tanks, it´s a different story.
Here in germany, that would be an absolute no-go.

Noble space marine army? Really? They wipe out entire planetary populations because they don't want to support the emperor. Nothing noble about that in the least. Space Marines are just another evil in the 40k universe of expanding shades of gray.

As for grandparents being killed by Napoleon, I am sure plenty were killed in the Napoleonic wars and their families mourned for them. The point wasn't about Napoleon, though, it was about the british empire. The british, through multiple centuries, established an empire around the world, subjugating and abusing native peoples and taking the profits of their hard work and efforts all in the name of "civilizing them". In fact African tribes, to this day, are killing each other over tribal separations imposed on them by colonial powers like the British to keep them from unifying against them and it is *still* working and *still* impacts the lives of millions every day.

The Nazis were truly and fully in power in Germany for less than 20 years. They did some horrible things and started a war that killed millions during that time and the history of those actions is still pretty fresh in people's minds, but 20 years of nastieness compared to *centuries* of questionable colonial policies, subjugation and wars just doesn't even come close in my mind. We have failed as humans when the appearance of a swastika somwhere generates 1000000% more concern and outrage than the actual ethnic cleansing that still happens every day in the world.

Yes a space marine with waving swastikas would be a no-go in Germany, but given that the symbol is completely illegal to be shown on German soil that really isn't a surprise either.

Skriker

Skylifter wrote:
Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference. There's a lot of German words that are forbidden, or at least strange to use. I wish people would stop using IG names like "69th Sturmpanzergenadierregiment." The main issue is that it's too overused, and is completely unoriginal. But I don't really care too much anyway. It does get back to my "Why are they building a German army" question.


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Skriker wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:To give an example, I put this army down to immaturity,
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/207142.page

Whereas I have serious political concerns about this guy who build this army:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/209735.page

The fact that it isn't a WWII army, has constant Nordic symbolism, and interspersed vague Nazi themes is what causes the alarm for me.

Not sure I share much concern of either of those. The 2nd army especially is themed on a number of different things spelled out by the creator: WFB Empire (which is heavily germanic in its feel), WWII german forces and thor. So I am unsurprised by the nordic symbolism in the least. Also you can see the WW2 influence, without it being a slap in the face to anyone who looks at it by covering things in swastikas. Methinks you are reading a lot more into it than is intended. I look at it and see a dedicated modeller who went with a combined theme and carried it through with some amazing conversions added into the mix. I guess I just look at it as an army for a sci-fi game and don't try to put any further weight to the imagery than that. I will say that some of the banners do look like WWII recruitment and propaganda posters, but all sides used similar kind of imagery in the posters of the period.

Either way I do think you are worried about nothing here, just my opinion.

Skriker

That is a possibility that should be kept open, but as someone who has studied Nazis, then and now, I have to say it is very unlikely. Someone in the original discussion also pointed it out. I highly doubt that someone would "accidentally" build up a perfectly themed neo Nazi army. Although, we should keep a mind open to your idea.

So. Much. Overreaction.

Seriously guys, how about we ask the Hindus how they feel about the issue? The swastika was stolen from their religion. It's a symbolic representation of the god Ganesha, and associated with success and good luck.

And if you have a problem with eagle iconography, well, HEY THE OFFICIAL BIRD OF THE UNITED STATES IS A FETHING EAGLE.

I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good for their country - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.

Vehemently.

It's like you're making it out to be some famous sports star or something whose jersey has been retired, and nobody will ever wear that number for that team again. Eventually we're going to have to start printing jersey numbers really really tiny in order to fit all the zeroes on it once we run out of numbers between 1 and 100.

Just like the swastika was stolen from the Hindu religion, iconography has been stolen, recycled, "updated" and "modernized" since pretty much the beginning of time. Are we going to say that all the nordic art featuring lightning bolts and thunder is off-limits just because the insignia for the Schutzstaffel used lightning bolts?

The iron eagle is a pretty cool image on its own merits. Just leave it at that and stop assigning significance to it - in the grand scheme of things it really IS insignificant.

Chesh wrote:So. Much. Overreaction.

Seriously guys, how about we ask the Hindus how they feel about the issue? The swastika was stolen from their religion. It's a symbolic representation of the god Ganesha, and associated with success and good luck.

And if you have a problem with eagle iconography, well, HEY THE OFFICIAL BIRD OF THE UNITED STATES IS A FETHING EAGLE.

I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good for their country - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.

Vehemently.

It's like you're making it out to be some famous sports star or something whose jersey has been retired, and nobody will ever wear that number for that team again. Eventually we're going to have to start printing jersey numbers really really tiny in order to fit all the zeroes on it once we run out of numbers between 1 and 100.

Just like the swastika was stolen from the Hindu religion, iconography has been stolen, recycled, "updated" and "modernized" since pretty much the beginning of time. Are we going to say that all the nordic art featuring lightning bolts and thunder is off-limits just because the insignia for the Schutzstaffel used lightning bolts?

The iron eagle is a pretty cool image on its own merits. Just leave it at that and stop assigning significance to it - in the grand scheme of things it really IS insignificant.

I'm not saying it's off limits. If you want to use it go ahead. Don't complain when no one plays against you. If people at your store don't care, that fine. It doesn't matter to us.

Oh, and here's an example of the "great service" that the Nazis did for their country:
http://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&biw=1175&bih=636&q=bombing+of+dresden&gbv=2&oq=bombing+of+dresden&aq=f&aqi=g8g-ms1g-m1&aql=&gs_l=img.3..0l8j0i5i10j0i5.1128l5886l0l6214l22l22l1l3l3l0l107l1057l15j1l16l0.frgbld.


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I also doubt that actively assisting the Red Army in committing mass rape and murder against Germans as punishment for losing the war, and as a way of "motivating" the people in the unoccupied regions to fight harder is really "good for their country."

Nazi armies in games outside of WWII settings is pretty stupid and in bad taste imo. The same would apply to a KKK style army or the like as well. GW already has German militaristic culture reflected in Krieg and Armageddon, there's really no need to take it further.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:
Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference. There's a lot of German words that are forbidden, or at least strange to use. I wish people would stop using IG names like "69th Sturmpanzergenadierregiment." The main issue is that it's too overused, and is completely unoriginal. But I don't really care too much anyway. It does get back to my "Why are they building a German army" question.

You mean that symbol which looks almost identical to the imperial aquila except for the latter having two heads? Or even like the IG skull eagle? Well, feth, I'm not going to use that on my models then if I ever travel to america...

Seriously, you made a fool of yourself, first by telling others not to use false German when you cannot do it any better, then by trying to row back and saying how you were doing it wrong on purpose, now you try to argue that there were hard and fast rules about what symbols you can or can not use when that is clearly a matter of personal opinion.*

I am not saying you were a fool, but you should just stop trying to argue this. You will not convince anyone. I will have a much easier time trying to respect you if you can at least admit defeat instead of childishly repeating that everyone else were wrong.


* The exception being actual laws. In Germany, you may not display a swastika openly, unless it is absolutely obvious from the context that it is intended for educational purposes, or, in fact, actually used as a religious symbol. But I doubt that there is a law in the US that you cannot use that eagle you linked to. And neither is there in Germany, and for good reason.

Chesh wrote:I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good for their country - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.

The fact that we have someone defending Nazis in this thread gives far more credibility to Ehrenstein's point than anything that he could have said himself. Chesh, do some actual research before you try to call other people's points into question.

Chesh wrote:
I can go along with nazi hate, even when muppets like to make claims such as "the nazi party was pure evil" etc (they really weren't. Do some research - they did a lot of good [i]for their country[/i] - just like everything else, nothing is wholly bad or wholly good). However, when you start saying "OMG this picture is OFF LIMITS" then I have to start disagreeing.
.

You, Sir, please leave my internet. That was the most stupid most I EVER read. Don´t come me with the damn Autobahn. A highway can´t compensate millions of life. Please, do the research you told me to do first.

Mhmm. You mean things like:

- Supporting the growth of small businesses
- Removing a lot of the classism and putting a lot of power in the hands of the people who were being abused by the "nobility"
- Being responsible for most of the industrial growth that modernized Germany and caught the nation up to the countries that got a jumpstart on the industrial revolution throughout Europe
- Preventing Germany from becoming a communist nation, which would have completely shattered the economy and eventually lead to a peasant revolt
- Supporting scientific research, such as the development of the X-Ray machine, along with many other HUGE developments in the fields of medicine and engineering
- Implemented sweeping social reforms that made life better for the poor

Etc...

Don't mistake the party with the army. Sure, they (the party) were xenophobic aryans that were anti-capitalist, anti-semitic, anti-a lot of things, but they did a lot of good for the country. Then Hitler wrecked it all by being a charismatic embodiment of pure evil that took over the country just when the nationalist feelings were running the highest, thanks to the nazi party instilling a sense of national pride in "just being German" after being soundly defeated during WWI.

You also have to view the issue in the context of the times.

Germany had, thanks to Kaiser WIlhelm II removing Otto von Bismarck from the office of Chancellor, broken every treaty it ever participated in that stabilized Europe after the formation of the country a quarter-century prior to WWI (not exactly "broken" in the sense that hostilities broke out, but rather just let the treaties lapse due to non-interest and a certain will to power on Wilhelm II's part). That lead directly to WWI, then Germany got their asses handed to them by nations that were still harboring resentment over how Bismarck's politicking and tactical brilliance carved the country of Germany out of a large part of Austria and France.

That's when the nazi party grew. Partly out of resentment (it always sucks to lose a war)...

To be continued, I have to run for a bit. But we can just let it stand at "I've done my fething research" if you'd rather.

You forgot the part where they persecuted any German citizen that didn't adhere to their beliefs, and then mired the country in a hopeless genocidal war that literally eradicated an entire generation of their own people (not to mention the lives lost by their Axis partners and the Allies that fought against them). Your facts are tremendously flawed because they're subjective in scope. If a mass murderer gives $100 to charity, he's still a mass murderer. If you look at the complete body of work of the Nazi party, "purely evil" does pretty much fit the bill.

This isn't a topic about whether or not Nazis are bad (they are, full stop), it's about the suitability of using a German theme in one's Warhammer 40k army.

If we're banning people from misconstruing verbiage, can we include the British people that try American Slang?

I swear, if I see another tank with the slogan 'Kicking arse and taking names', I'm gonna have a fit.

Skylifter wrote:

You mean that symbol which looks almost identical to the imperial aquila except for the latter having two heads? Or even like the IG skull eagle? Well, feth, I'm not going to use that on my models then if I ever travel to america...

Seriously, you made a fool of yourself, first by telling others not to use false German when you cannot do it any better, then by trying to row back and saying how you were doing it wrong on purpose, now you try to argue that there were hard and fast rules about what symbols you can or can not use when that is clearly a matter of personal opinion.*

I am not saying you were a fool, but you should just stop trying to argue this. You will not convince anyone. I will have a much easier time trying to respect you if you can at least admit defeat instead of childishly repeating that everyone else were wrong.


* The exception being actual laws. In Germany, you may not display a swastika openly, unless it is absolutely obvious from the context that it is intended for educational purposes, or, in fact, actually used as a religious symbol. But I doubt that there is a law in the US that you cannot use that eagle you linked to. And neither is there in Germany, and for good reason.

I realize my claiming that the symbol was forbidden was totally over the top.

Yeah, I realize it was wrong of me to bring this up. As one of the other users mentioned, I was directing this at a group of people who aren't here.

I want to make it clear that I don't have an intention of setting a rule, I was only offering a suggestion. And at that, it was clearly unnecessary and totally ineffective.


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KplKeegan wrote:If we're banning people from misconstruing verbiage, can we include the British people that try American Slang?

I swear, if I see another tank with the slogan 'Kicking arse and taking names', I'm gonna have a fit.

I wasn't attempting in any way to "ban" people from doing stuff. I tried to make a suggestion, and it's clear it went to hell it would have been best if I hadn't.


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Chesh wrote:Mhmm. You mean things like:

- Supporting the growth of small businesses
- Removing a lot of the classism and putting a lot of power in the hands of the people who were being abused by the "nobility"
- Being responsible for most of the industrial growth that modernized Germany and caught the nation up to the countries that got a jumpstart on the industrial revolution throughout Europe
- Preventing Germany from becoming a communist nation, which would have completely shattered the economy and eventually lead to a peasant revolt
- Supporting scientific research, such as the development of the X-Ray machine, along with many other HUGE developments in the fields of medicine and engineering
- Implemented sweeping social reforms that made life better for the poor

Etc...

Don't mistake the party with the army. Sure, they (the party) were xenophobic aryans that were anti-capitalist, anti-semitic, anti-a lot of things, but they did a lot of good for the country. Then Hitler wrecked it all by being a charismatic embodiment of pure evil that took over the country just when the nationalist feelings were running the highest, thanks to the nazi party instilling a sense of national pride in "just being German" after being soundly defeated during WWI.

You also have to view the issue in the context of the times.

Germany had, thanks to Kaiser WIlhelm II removing Otto von Bismarck from the office of Chancellor, broken every treaty it ever participated in that stabilized Europe after the formation of the country a quarter-century prior to WWI (not exactly "broken" in the sense that hostilities broke out, but rather just let the treaties lapse due to non-interest and a certain will to power on Wilhelm II's part). That lead directly to WWI, then Germany got their asses handed to them by nations that were still harboring resentment over how Bismarck's politicking and tactical brilliance carved the country of Germany out of a large part of Austria and France.

That's when the nazi party grew. Partly out of resentment (it always sucks to lose a war)...

To be continued, I have to run for a bit. But we can just let it stand at "I've done my fething research" if you'd rather.

Just to let you know, trying to convince Germans, or anyone for that matter, that Hitler "did stuff for his country" is a fool's errand. I wouldn't waste long posts on it if I were you. I've been reading and rereading books on the end of the war, and one of the most constantly mentioned themes is the fact that the Germans were victimized by the Nazis, especially toward the end of the war. Please be aware that you are being extremely insensitive by making that claim. I think pretty much anyone in Europe would agree. Let's not forget the 240,000 Americans who also ended up dying needlessly to put a stop to the Nazis.

One of the things I didn't mention before was how the Nazi military police rounded up all men between ages 16 to 60, and forced them to fight, without training or effective weapons, against the Russians in near suicidal battles. How exactly is that "doing a service?"

Wow...just wow...

The Nazi's did good things for the people? Really? Wow...yes life did become better in Germany after the imminent economic collapse caused by the burden of the Treaty of Versailles had been lifted. The people were given their pride back in themselves and their nation, but it was all done as a prelude and a process toward declaring war on Germany's enemies and neighbors and enacting those aspects of Hitler's plans even worse than war. The good means do not excuse the evil ends anymore than evil means make good ends acceptable.

I think this thread is dead...it started talking about nazi symbolism, but now that someone has said the Nazis did good things I think that trumps all...

Skriker





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Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference.

And being considered an automatic Nazi reference in the US means what exactly? Someone could wear that on a shirt and while many will think the wearer is a tool, it is perfectly legal unless they try to use it to intimidate people going into a synagogue or something. Legally in the US it is not the symbol that is the problem, but what use it is put towards. Have it as a tattoo and you are a racist jack hole, but that is your choice and it is your right. Spray paint it on a synagogue or the front door of a jewish family's home and it is a hate crime.

Skriker

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:

You mean that symbol which looks almost identical to the imperial aquila except for the latter having two heads? Or even like the IG skull eagle? Well, feth, I'm not going to use that on my models then if I ever travel to america...

Seriously, you made a fool of yourself, first by telling others not to use false German when you cannot do it any better, then by trying to row back and saying how you were doing it wrong on purpose, now you try to argue that there were hard and fast rules about what symbols you can or can not use when that is clearly a matter of personal opinion.*

I am not saying you were a fool, but you should just stop trying to argue this. You will not convince anyone. I will have a much easier time trying to respect you if you can at least admit defeat instead of childishly repeating that everyone else were wrong.


* The exception being actual laws. In Germany, you may not display a swastika openly, unless it is absolutely obvious from the context that it is intended for educational purposes, or, in fact, actually used as a religious symbol. But I doubt that there is a law in the US that you cannot use that eagle you linked to. And neither is there in Germany, and for good reason.

I realize my claiming that the symbol was forbidden was totally over the top.

Yeah, I realize it was wrong of me to bring this up. As one of the other users mentioned, I was directing this at a group of people who aren't here.

I want to make it clear that I don't have an intention of setting a rule, I was only offering a suggestion. And at that, it was clearly unnecessary and totally ineffective.

Fair enough. #chapeau And I do agree with you on one point I think: that people are annoying who just put swastikas or other symbols looking nazi-esque (and pseudo-German slogans) all over their armies in order to provoke a reaction, so basically to troll their opponents - as opposed to creating an army that is similar in style to WWI or WWII German armies because they enjoy interpreting that historical period. The problem is, I think, that you cannot always be sure which is which at first glance. I would give both the ones you linked to the benefit of the doubt, for example, whereas you seem to be less lenient in that regard.

Bad thing to argue in this thread: the Nazi's did good things.

You're just proving the OP's point. Focus on his logic and example problems, not the Nazi's being good.

The Nazi's "doing some good" doesn't mean very much considering a decade after taking power their policies led to Germany being a pile of rubble, under foreign occupation, and divided for the next 50 years. Temporarily decreasing unemployment through conscription and blah blah becomes moot when one considers this.

I must admit, I am perplexed at how the swastika is such a hated symbol, and yet the hammer and sickle, the communist star, the cross, and so on, are not. Many millions were killed under all those symbols. The Soviets killed many times more civilians than Hitler ever did, and that was just during WWII. Great numbers were killed by both the Crusaders and Jihadists during the Crusades, yet the symbols of both are still used today. Millions have been killed under the symbol of the cross, yet it is one of the most common religious symbols in the world today.

All in all though, I think it boils down to context. Would I find an army modeled after Nazis/Soviets with symbolism all over the place, scenes of civilians being murdered and burning *insert religious text here* offensive? You bet! I imagine anyone would be politely (or maybe not so politely) asking that person to leave the store, and probably never come back.

However, an army modeled, tastefully and artfully, after a period of history with snappy uniforms (let's admit, Wehrmacht uniforms were good looking, and I'm sure they were intended that way), with maybe a Iron Cross or maybe even a Balkenkreuz here and there? I think it's debatable, but I would have no problem with it so long as it's not conveying a racist message.

I do want to make it clear, I am NOT saying that any of the above symbols I have mentioned are bad per se, just that context matters. The communist star is just a five pointed star. You see it everywhere. It's probably the most common form of a star you see. The swastika has religious and cultural use, and, within proper context, is not offensive to me and I don't think it should be.

In Latvia, the swastika, as well as a reversed version, has been a cultural symbol for centuries and still is. It was used as a business logo in Europe prior to WWII. It was used by the Finnish Air Force for medals long after WWII. None of them are pro-Nazi.

tl;dr, many common symbols have had atrocities committed under, many of them are still used today. Context matters. If an army isn't very obviously displaying pro-Nazism, I say go for it. If it's artistic and historic, that's one thing. If it's racist or hateful, that's another.

@Hitler "did stuff for his country", yes, he did. He did make some contributions. However, what he did, and the murder he committed, and the oppression he subjected anti-Nazi Germans to far outweigh what he did for his country. He was an evil man, the Nazis were an evil party, and nothing will take away from that.

@ Dragearen

You put a good line of thought in your posting. Thank you.

However there will be people who are so.... slanted in their view point that they will not understand nor will they bother thinking about perhaps their view point might not be completely right.

The Nazi party predates Hitler's rise to power, just by the way. Hitler's rise was made possible by the beliefs that the Nazi party fostered as part of their plan to instill national pride into a beaten down country.

And no, I'm not arguing that "Hitler was good" - you're making an association error. The Nazi party wasn't Hitler, and vice versa.

The political party, before and even during Hitler's rise, was good for Germany. It wasn't until the early 1930s that things changed; and rather abruptly at that. But to completely ignore the period from 1918 to 1930 (give or take) is stupid, since that's when all the things I'm talking about happened.

If you're going to argue about history, then you should at least have a basic grasp of history, and a semblance of ability to rationally discuss points, instead of an overwhelming talent of completely missing them.

Could we perhaps carry this fun conversation about the significance of Hitler's political accomplishments into the off-topic forum, please?

As much as I would love to discuss it, this is really not the place for it. Start a thread, post a link, and I'll be there.

I've been warned about the offtopic forum though! Once people go there, they never get out again *cue ominous trumpet flourish*.

Adam LongWalker wrote:@ Dragearen

You put a good line of thought in your posting. Thank you.

However there will be people who are so.... slanted in their view point that they will not understand nor will they bother thinking about perhaps their view point might not be completely right.

Yeah, I definitely agree too. I have a friend who wants to play a Sturmkrieg army with Rotstein in particular, and has talked about including models of Stalin and the hammer and sickle. While it wouldn't be "offensive" in this country, it would be totally out of place in 40k, and therefore still inappropriate. I can't say I'd censor such content if he or anyone else posted it on Sturmkrieg, at least not unless people complained, I've recommended to him that he leave it out since it's pretty game breaking.

I'm really not out to dictate fluff to people as I've recently made it seem. While I oppose various things in fan fluff and armies, I wouldn't censor any of it if someone posted it on Sturmkrieg, unless of course they actually put up a swastika or something like that, or if it draws complaints. It's just personal preferences.


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TedNugent wrote:Could we perhaps carry this fun conversation about the significance of Hitler's political accomplishments into the off-topic forum, please?

As much as I would love to discuss it, this is really not the place for it. Start a thread, post a link, and I'll be there.

I was about to suggest that. Good idea.

Here's a little known fact: The German phrase "Ach du lieber, meinen Feierabend!" translates to "Yabba-dabba-do!" in English.

Oh my celebration evening? Thats what I get it as. Yet again, my German fails.

TheRobotLol wrote:Oh my celebration evening? Thats what I get it as. Yet again, my German fails.

This is what Fred Flintstone says when he gets off work in the respective languages, so the translation is absolutely solid factually.

"Feierabend" is the evening after work.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:
Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference.

Uh, the eagle appears on all Euro coins minted in Germany up to this date, and it did appear on all one and five Mark coins we had before. The eagle has been a symbol of central Europe ever since the Romans brought it here. If the US consider it an automatic Nazi symbol, that's about a scientific as some Germans believing that Americans eat Hamburgers all day.

Nevermind, it's not worth the trouble.

I'd eat hamburgers all day but the Hamburglar ate all my hamburgers

Am I the only one who agrees with this?

I do think it is a point though that IG use WW1/WW2 style tanks,planes,ect.

Jidmah wrote:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:

Skylifter wrote:
Germany is littered with Nazi eagles where only the swastika has been erased. The german government is completely paranoid regarding being considered even slightly right-wing, all of them, but eagles don't seem to trouble them. The German Army's university in Hamburg has a massive Nazi eagle statue on its grounds, where, again, only the swastika has been erased. That's because the eagle is still the heraldic animal of Germany, and the styling in which it is rendered is not considered all that important by most people.

So yeah, the Nazis used eagles as symbols and Nordic mythology for some bullgak rituals, but neither were an actual Nazi symbol. The swastika wasn't one, either; but it was basically unknown in Europe and had no meaning in European culture before the Nazis used it. Both the eagle and the Nordic gods did. Therefore, the swastika is nowadays considered a Nazi symbol, eagles and guys with long blond hair and beards carrying a hammer aren't.

And while I absolutely think that glorifying Nazis should not be tolerated, I also think that you shouldn't always scream "Burn the witch!" too quickly. Because if we all did, then GW's rendition of the IoM would absolutely burn first of all, and anyone who can tolerate playing this game must be an absolute arch-Nazi.

While it might be ok in Germany, using this symbol in the US is considered an automatic Nazi reference.

Uh, the eagle appears on all Euro coins minted in Germany up to this date, and it did appear on all one and five Mark coins we had before. The eagle has been a symbol of central Europe ever since the Romans brought it here. If the US consider it an automatic Nazi symbol, that's about a scientific as some Germans believing that Americans eat Hamburgers all day.

First of all, I wasn't talking about a generic eagle symbol. Second, I realize that my post was clearly ridiculous and incorrect. Also, it has been mentioned here that in Germany people do not always see the technical distinctions between the various eagle symbol designs. I see that symbol and the GW 40k logo as completely different.

I do not agree with this, but I have been told by laypeople that I should not use the GW eagle because they think it looks like the Nazi eagle, My friend has made fun of this, but I'm just saying it's there. To make this clear, I do not agree with that line of thinking.

So based on the OP, as reenactor I must be in bad taste.

DoctorZombie wrote: So based on the OP, as reenactor I must be in bad taste.

No, I encourage that. As other in this discussion have pointed out, the "but Flames of War tanks have swastikas" is not an argument. Flames of War is a historical game that is dedicated to WWII. Overly historical armies in 40k are technically game breaking, but people don't usually care unless they have something too coincidental because historical armies are generally not offensive. When you put a swastika on a WWII 40k army, people stop tolerating the deviance from the canon. If you put a swastika on a Flames of War tank, than it's probably supposed to be there. However, if you used swastikas in Flames of War in a historically inconsistent way, people would probably be offended by it.


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I think at the very least, you should view a swastika as game breaking. While an American flag wouldn't be offensive, it would be totally out of place.

And I think that about sums it up.