So... I heard about the myth that Matt Ward supposedly created Gray Knights that worship Khorne, and I tried to find the place in the codex where they were described, because I had been told that it was in the current codex. I could not find it, and after reading through almost all of it, gave up. Eventually, on 1d4chan, (I confirmed it from the codex) I came across an article about it; it was about a story that I had already read, but had not interpreted to mean that Gray Knights had been corrupted by Khorne.

What actually happens is that Gray Knights kill a temple full of uncorrupted Sisters of Battle to use their blood to shield them from corruption. Gray Knights have never been corrupted. Sisters of Battle have occasionally been corrupted. If the SoB were not corrupted, than the Gray Knights would definitely able to resist being able to be corrupted. Somewhere, someone interpreted this problem to mean that the Gray Knights had therefore been corrupted by Khorne. Now, the number of people who have actually told me and been telling other people that there are Gray Knights that worship Khorne in the 40k canon is ridiculous. I'm not nerd raging over it, but trying to debunk the myth that has led to it.

Please make sure that all replies are civilized.

Rule 1, 4-chan is NOT a place to get information from

The story you describe did happen, but it is severly misinterperted.


There was a planet that was under the influence of the Bloodtide. It is a daemonic infection that takes over your body. you either explode in a shower of gore OR you begin mindless bloodletting.

There was a convent of sisters, some of their members we able to resist the Bloodtide with their purity.


The GKs arrived and found the sisters. The GKs didn't know if they could also proove immune to the Bloodtide. Just because they can't be corrupted won't prevent them from exploding or going crazy, its not en either or deal. Nurgle can still make GKs sick, he just can't make them join him. Same kinda deal with the Bloodtide.

So the GKs killed the Sisters and coated their armor in their blood. This allowed them to avoid the Bloodtide long enough for them to stop it.

Nothing says the Sisters weren't willing sacrifices. There was no malice involved, it just needed to be done. They were probably happy to lay down their lives if it meant stopping the infection.

Actually, it's mostly a joke. Nobody that I know takes it seriously, anyway. The reason it's so made fun of is because it sounds SOOOOO stupid, and make almost no sense.

which is all the more reason to believe that Matt Ward could have written it

If you are sufficiently read up on older fluff it makes perfect sense.

Mat Ward made nothing up. This was around long before him, and so was 99% of the other fluff in the GK codex.

There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

Grey Templar wrote:Rule 1, 4-chan is NOT a place to get information from

The story you describe did happen, but it is severly misinterperted.


There was a planet that was under the influence of the Bloodtide. It is a daemonic infection that takes over your body. you either explode in a shower of gore OR you begin mindless bloodletting.

There was a convent of sisters, some of their members we able to resist the Bloodtide with their purity.


The GKs arrived and found the sisters. The GKs didn't know if they could also proove immune to the Bloodtide. Just because they can't be corrupted won't prevent them from exploding or going crazy, its not en either or deal. Nurgle can still make GKs sick, he just can't make them join him. Same kinda deal with the Bloodtide.

So the GKs killed the Sisters and coated their armor in their blood. This allowed them to avoid the Bloodtide long enough for them to stop it.

Nothing says the Sisters weren't willing sacrifices. There was no malice involved, it just needed to be done. They were probably happy to lay down their lives if it meant stopping the infection.

Thanks for clarifying.

I checked the codex after reading 1d4chan to make sure that it actually happened.

There were people who were actually telling me in full seriousness that there were Gray Knights that worship Khorne.

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote: Gray Knights have never been corrupted. Sisters of Battle have occasionally been corrupted. If the SoB were not corrupted, than the Gray Knights would definitely able to resist being able to be corrupted.

You're confusing corrupted with infected.

The Chaos gods offer unlimited power. This is attractive to humans, and they will often compromise their ideals in order to gain some of that power.

This is what it means to be corrupted by Chaos. To have willingly done the bidding of the Chaos gods (or Daemons) in return for a reward.

The Bloodtide was totally different. It was an infections substance that poisoned anyone it touched. But it could be warded against! Unfortunately one of the ingredients for that ward was the blood of innocent people.

Now, the language used to describe the incident is ambiguous, because corrupted has many meanings.

If some Grey Knights face a Khorne daemon and join him killing innocent allies and celebrating a blood rite, I know what to think of them.

And heeeeere we go.

Sit back and grab drinks and popcorn Dakka, we have our weekly ( if not daily ? ) wardfluff hate fest incoming.

Kroothawk wrote:If some Grey Knights face a Khorne daemon and join him killing innocent allies and celebrating a blood rite, I know what to think of them.

how is ending a rite celebrating it?

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

I believe in America the word Grey is spelled with an A.

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

American English differs from "Proper" English in many of its word's spellings. Gray is one of such words.

And Grey Templar gave a pretty good rationale as to why such a thing would happen, I agree whole-heartedly.

Iranna.

The title of this thread made me laugh, thanx!

But yeah, it seems that Grey Knights routinely acts outside of Imperial norms. They slaughter entire regiments for having helped them won battles on 'what if' scenarios. This is in no way beyond the normal scope of their actions. Of course that doesn't mean that story couldn't have been weaved a bit differently, and more convincingly. For exemple, making it heavily implied the Sisters were okay with it, or even, were the one suggesting it.

blood reaper wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

I believe in America the word Grey is spelled with an A.

I believe in America the army is still called the Grey Knights.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blood reaper wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

I believe in America the word Grey is spelled with an A.

I believe in America the army is still called the Grey Knights.

I've seen it used both ways over here~

^^ The Khorne bit on 1d4 chan's referring solely to just how silly the whole concept is. If a normal marine were to slay a convent of sisters just to save themselves then they'd probably be regarded as heretics by the church, thus why people call out this little bit of nonsence by calling the Knights Khornante. Grey Knights apparently never fall to Chaos (always with the absolutes is Ward), as nor has a single Sister ever fallen either. However writers have the right to be creative, thus why there's numerous stories in established fluff-ie the Epharael Stern comics-, so if some writer decides to come along and create a character called say "The Black Knight" (originality abounds), one of the few every Grey Knights to beat their indoctrination and question their faith, then who's to question it. ....Oh wait neckbeards. ....Neckbeards. =D

The only good GK titled thread is the one about how they all died.

Oh wait..... NM

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blood reaper wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

I believe in America the word Grey is spelled with an A.

I believe in America the army is still called the Grey Knights.

I've seen it used both ways over here~

Either is technically correct, but the accepted spelling is Grey.

Gray just looks wierd.

Actually the no GK falling to Chaos has always been that way. One sister has been known to have fallen and is apparently quite dangerous; though no doubt with how they're seemingly portrayed like guard in the background some more will have appeared to have "fallen" (mind control doesn't count as submission and actual falling to chaos).

Miriael Sabathiel is the only SoB who has willingly turned to Chaos. To Slaanesh of course since it has a thing for corrupting the more pure warriors, enjoying watching them become corrupted.

Grey Templar wrote:

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blood reaper wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

I believe in America the word Grey is spelled with an A.

I believe in America the army is still called the Grey Knights.

I've seen it used both ways over here~

Either is technically correct, but the accepted spelling is Grey.

Gray just looks wierd.

Understood

motyak wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:If some Grey Knights face a Khorne daemon and join him killing innocent allies and celebrating a blood rite, I know what to think of them.

how is ending a rite celebrating it?

How is murdering people who consider you their allies and then covering yourself in their blood ending a blood rite? Coincidentally, followers of Khorne tend to do the exact same thing. Of course, there's no connection... or so they'd have you believe.

The Sisters were doomed anyway, for failing to prevent the rite from happening in the first place. At least this way they were useful.

And again, we have to contend with Ward's gakky, ambiguous writing style. We don't know that it was murder, the Sisters could have given their lives willingly. It's certainly in their character.

Alternatively, the Sisters could have been gaining the upper hand in a battle, and the Knights decided to kill them and Leeroy Jenkins their way to victory. There's just no way of knowing.

Which one is more likely? There's your answer.

Grey Templar wrote:Rule 1, 4-chan is NOT a place to get information from

The story you describe did happen, but it is severly misinterperted.


There was a planet that was under the influence of the Bloodtide. It is a daemonic infection that takes over your body. you either explode in a shower of gore OR you begin mindless bloodletting.

There was a convent of sisters, some of their members we able to resist the Bloodtide with their purity.


The GKs arrived and found the sisters. The GKs didn't know if they could also proove immune to the Bloodtide. Just because they can't be corrupted won't prevent them from exploding or going crazy, its not en either or deal. Nurgle can still make GKs sick, he just can't make them join him. Same kinda deal with the Bloodtide.

So the GKs killed the Sisters and coated their armor in their blood. This allowed them to avoid the Bloodtide long enough for them to stop it.
14d4cchan and 4chan
Know the diffrence. We get this "4chan" crap alot and it really is starting to tick me off. I am sorry but dude look at the content of the two. One is about 40k and one is about..... well random pictures.
Nothing says the Sisters weren't willing sacrifices. There was no malice involved, it just needed to be done. They were probably happy to lay down their lives if it meant stopping the infection.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Inquisitor Ehrenstein wrote:So... I heard about the myth that Matt Ward supposedly created Gray Knights that worship Khorne, and I tried to find the place in the codex where they were described, because I had been told that it was in the current codex. I could not find it, and after reading through almost all of it, gave up. Eventually, on 1d4chan, (I confirmed it from the codex) I came across an article about it; it was about a story that I had already read, but had not interpreted to mean that Gray Knights had been corrupted by Khorne.

What actually happens is that Gray Knights kill a temple full of uncorrupted Sisters of Battle to use their blood to shield them from corruption. Gray Knights have never been corrupted. Sisters of Battle have occasionally been corrupted. If the SoB were not corrupted, than the Gray Knights would definitely able to resist being able to be corrupted. Somewhere, someone interpreted this problem to mean that the Gray Knights had therefore been corrupted by Khorne. Now, the number of people who have actually told me and been telling other people that there are Gray Knights that worship Khorne in the 40k canon is ridiculous. I'm not nerd raging over it, but trying to debunk the myth that has led to it.

Please make sure that all replies are civilized.

Yes this is from a old story about holy knights called in to save a village from a rising demon. The knights use the blood of virgin women to remain pure from the demons taint.
Thank you for saying 1d4chan and not 4chan


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Grey Templar wrote:Rule 1, 4-chan is NOT a place to get information from

The story you describe did happen, but it is severly misinterperted.


There was a planet that was under the influence of the Bloodtide. It is a daemonic infection that takes over your body. you either explode in a shower of gore OR you begin mindless bloodletting.

There was a convent of sisters, some of their members we able to resist the Bloodtide with their purity.


The GKs arrived and found the sisters. The GKs didn't know if they could also proove immune to the Bloodtide. Just because they can't be corrupted won't prevent them from exploding or going crazy, its not en either or deal. Nurgle can still make GKs sick, he just can't make them join him. Same kinda deal with the Bloodtide.

So the GKs killed the Sisters and coated their armor in their blood. This allowed them to avoid the Bloodtide long enough for them to stop it.

Nothing says the Sisters weren't willing sacrifices. There was no malice involved, it just needed to be done. They were probably happy to lay down their lives if it meant stopping the infection.

Yes but it says that the grey knights are PURE and untaintable. So why would they need the blood? Just because we discussed this on our page dose not mean it is incorrect. Oh and notice we said 1d4chan. We are not even a part of 4chan. We actualy make fun of 4chan for being where everything is sent to death on the internet.
The Khornate Knights thing is from a random page edit that has been removed and the IP has been banned
Just count how many times it says that they are "pure" and "untaintable" in the codex.

Nurgle wrote:Yes but it says that the grey knights are PURE and untaintable. So why would they need the blood?

The distinction between spiritual and physical corruption has been covered at least 8 bajillion times. Not sure if trolling?

Durza wrote:Alternatively, the Sisters could have been gaining the upper hand in a battle, and the Knights decided to kill them and Leeroy Jenkins their way to victory. There's just no way of knowing.

Omegus wrote:Which one is more likely? There's your answer.

Given the hamfisted, over the top, turned to 11, AWESEOME!!!!111 the rest of the codex is written in? I'm going with Leeroy Jenkins.

Codex: Chaos p41
The Black Sorceries of Daemomancy rely upon certain elements, some physical, others spiritual. The offering of these components in correct quantities and order is Daemomancy . Blood, sweat, hair, bone, fear, loathing and hatred are the Ingredienta Majoris, common to all conjurations and summonings. Dependant on the Nefarious Power to be be entreated, certain Ingredienta Minoris will also be required.

So lets have a look.

Blood, check.
Sweat, more than likely.
Hair, unlikely the sisters were bald, unlike me.
Bone, hopefully a given.
Fear, the Sisters probably shat themselves when the Grey Knights started killing them.
Loathing, in Chaos, probably.
Hatred, against Chaos, yup.

Blood Sacrifice to appease Khorne to let the Grey Knights live, check. Khornate Grey Knights lol.

Not serious at all, i'm on the no Grey Knight has ever fallen wagon, but Wards writing for the GK Codex IS bad.

Dawi-Marine'Va wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

blood reaper wrote:

1hadhq wrote:There are no Gr A y Knights.

But there are Grey Knights who suffered from M.W. ' s inability to create good fluff. So we don't need thred n°9999 about the bloody incident of bloodiness of the blood used to "ward" off the bloody god of slaughter.

I believe in America the word Grey is spelled with an A.

I believe in America the army is still called the Grey Knights.

I've seen it used both ways over here~

Agreed. I have seen it Spelled both Grey and Gray. If you notice Spell check does not list Gay as a misspelling. Gray is the preferred American spelling of the word and was a common spelling of the word in the UK up until the later Half of the last century.. Both Grey and Gray are correct spellings.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:

Mat Ward made nothing up. This was around long before him, and so was 99% of the other fluff in the GK codex.

I have seen this many times, It seems to be a rule that if Matt Wards name is upon a book then it is bad and he is to blame for everything ever, even stuff he had no hand in.

What would happen if Blood Angels found the planet and had bathed in the blood of the pure Sisters?

There would be even MORE assertions that the Blood Angels had gone over the edge.

That's exactly what happened here - if any Imperial army, Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, any of them, landed on a planet and then bathed in the blood of the slaughtered local Sisters convent, I think they would be considered pretty fethed up.

there also isn't anything that says the sisters didn't just pump the blood out through a machine and simply died as a result.

I think the ripping apart of them is a tad gruesome and unbecoming.

HOWEVER, I do have a problem with this. the armor and black carapace that ALL marines have is impervious to liquids and even space so long as they're wearing their helmet. its a closed loop system.

so a group of marines could be walking through a lake of blood and be just fine.

Unit1126PLL wrote:What would happen if Blood Angels found the planet and had bathed in the blood of the pure Sisters?

There would be even MORE assertions that the Blood Angels had gone over the edge.

That's exactly what happened here - if any Imperial army, Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, any of them, landed on a planet and then bathed in the blood of the slaughtered local Sisters convent, I think they would be considered pretty fethed up.

While true, the Gray knights do work for the inquisition. It may not be listed, but you better believe they were tested for corruption after they got back. As the unit was not purged (that we know of) then it is assumed no corruption was found.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:What would happen if Blood Angels found the planet and had bathed in the blood of the pure Sisters?

There would be even MORE assertions that the Blood Angels had gone over the edge.

That's exactly what happened here - if any Imperial army, Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, any of them, landed on a planet and then bathed in the blood of the slaughtered local Sisters convent, I think they would be considered pretty fethed up.

While true, the Gray knights do work for the inquisition. It may not be listed, but you better believe they were tested for corruption after they got back. As the unit was not purged (that we know of) then it is assumed no corruption was found.

Or some radical Inquisitor decided that having a group of Grey Knights tainted by Chaos would be a good idea. It's not all that unusual (Chaos tainted Iron Men being one example of precedent).

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:What would happen if Blood Angels found the planet and had bathed in the blood of the pure Sisters?

There would be even MORE assertions that the Blood Angels had gone over the edge.

That's exactly what happened here - if any Imperial army, Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, any of them, landed on a planet and then bathed in the blood of the slaughtered local Sisters convent, I think they would be considered pretty fethed up.

While true, the Gray knights do work for the inquisition. It may not be listed, but you better believe they were tested for corruption after they got back. As the unit was not purged (that we know of) then it is assumed no corruption was found.

I understand your point, but our problem lies with the supposed "necessity" of the action.

The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

Wow.. somethings do in fact never die.

It really does come down to a conception of how you view the GK.

I'm no Ward-hater myself (in fact i kinda think the whole Fanboy vs. Hater thing is a bit overblown) - but from a purely literary sense the whole incident just doesn't make much sense at all.

Yes of course, you can invent a rational for it - this is fiction after all - but for many folks the whole incident seemed less about adding something substantial to the fluff-mythology underlying the GK and more of a "let's stick something shocking in to illustrate how UberMacho/Devoted/Psychotic the GK are to their cause."


On another note - there's been a lot of talk recently in one of the other forums about "Where are all the chicks?" ie: Female Wargamers (as there are much rarer breed than female video gamers or even roleplayers).

Yeah this..



..doesn't really help out in that matter.

Well that and some of those Sister Repentia models as well .

The overall point (something that 1d4chan and others have picked up on) is that the trajectory for the Sisters of Battle has not been so much "Loyal fanatical warriors dying for the Glory of the Imperium and the Emperor" but rather "Favored Target to get Slaughtered in order to highlight another group's Super Coolness."

They are the Mooks of the Imperium.


Now i know that some of the unenlightened may ascribe to the addage that women are not good fighters in comparison to we males of the species.


To which i'd like to offer an Empirical Experiment (verified by a number of friends and relatives engaged in law enforcement):


-----> Present a Credible Threat to a Woman's Child.


I bear no responsiblity to what may happen to you...and wish you the best of luck if you should happen to survive the encounter.

They are or may be incorruptible however from what has been said the tide was not a corruption. it was an infection that was tainted with chaos. There could have been many reasons to do so. Its not like this is the first time the servants of the inquisition have done distasteful things for the greater good.

@ Durza, this is also a possibility. I do not think it gives enough detail to rule either out really.

Hunterindarkness wrote:They are or may be incorruptible however from what has been said the tide was not a corruption. it was an infection that was tainted with chaos. There could have been many reasons to do so. Its not like this is the first time the servants of the inquisition have done distasteful things for the greater good.

@ Durza, this is also a possibility. I do not think it gives enough detail to rule either out really.

And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

And there weren't any reasons to do so. That's the problem. List one, true, useful, and unarguable reason for the Knights to slaughter the Sisters and anoint themselves with their blood. Name one.

And the Inquisitors who do such a thing to a Sisters convent would almost automatically be Denounced, probably by a member of the Ordo Hereticus.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

And there weren't any reasons to do so. That's the problem. List one, true, useful, and unarguable reason for the Knights to slaughter the Sisters and anoint themselves with their blood. Name one.

And the Inquisitors who do such a thing to a Sisters convent would almost automatically be Denounced, probably by a member of the Ordo Hereticus.

Sigh, no reason you know of. How long is the info? A paragraph? Two? three lines? And while Inquisitors might be denounced, but would be studies and may be exonerated. They have done, far, far worse in the name of the emperor then bathing in blood. They have killed whole worlds,Damned millions to death, killed without remorse or second thought, consorted with bound demons maybe even used xeno or chaos tainted artifacts. This does not mean each one that has done this has been hunted down and killed.

You honestly think "Bathing in blood" ranks all that high on the "Bad gak for the Emperor" List? It may not even make the top 50 bad things the inquisition has done list.

Also on the sealed armor. That does not always work it seems, the IoM seems to have more then a few viral agents that can eat though the armors weak points. Any battle damage would also compromise the seals. Simply put without a great deal more detail then we have you can not say one way or the other if it was necessary or not. The fact they did it, points to the thought at the time that is was .

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

And there weren't any reasons to do so. That's the problem. List one, true, useful, and unarguable reason for the Knights to slaughter the Sisters and anoint themselves with their blood. Name one.

And the Inquisitors who do such a thing to a Sisters convent would almost automatically be Denounced, probably by a member of the Ordo Hereticus.

Sigh, no reason you know of. How long is the info? A paragraph? Two? three lines? And while Inquisitors might be denounced, but would be studies and may be exonerated. They have done, far, far worse in the name of the emperor then bathing in blood. They have killed whole worlds,Damned millions to death, killed without remorse or second thought, consorted with bound demons maybe even used xeno or chaos tainted artifacts. This does not mean each one that has done this has been hunted down and killed.

You honestly think "Bathing in blood" ranks all that high on the "Bad gak for the Emperor" List? It may not even make the top 50 bad things the inquisition has done list.

Also on the sealed armor. That does not always work it seems, the IoM seems to have more then a few viral agents that can eat though the armors weak points. Any battle damage would also compromise the seals. Simply put without a great deal more detail then we have you can not say one way or the other if it was necessary or not. The fact they did it, points to the thought at the time that is was .

No reason that anyone knows of. Why assume something when there is NO evidence given that it exists?

Yes, some Inquisitors are pretty bad, and even if they're tolerated, they're considered Radical. So I can compromise and consider the Grey Knights to be Radicals. Which puts them on the same level as the Relictors chapter.
And as an aside on the same topic - actually, many Inquisitors get exonerated of their "eviller" actions because they can prove it was necessary. There is nothing to suggest here that the bathing-in-blood ritual was necessary.

It's a fallacy to say that "Because we don't have all the info, we can't make a judgement." Information that is not given, unless it is stated that there is more information, should not be presumed to exist.
Just as an example: If Guardsman Billy says "The enemy are attacking to our front!" General William need not wonder if the guardsman omitted information about gigantic green space cats attacking too. It is simply assumed that there is no more relevant information.

As for the bolded part: "Or it points to the fact that they're Radical Khorne worshippers!" How's that for a conclusion based on the same data?

squidhills wrote:

Durza wrote:Alternatively, the Sisters could have been gaining the upper hand in a battle, and the Knights decided to kill them and Leeroy Jenkins their way to victory. There's just no way of knowing.

Omegus wrote:Which one is more likely? There's your answer.

Given the hamfisted, over the top, turned to 11, AWESEOME!!!!111 the rest of the codex is written in? I'm going with Leeroy Jenkins.

I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Of course, Ward's GK would go Leeroy Jenkins. But the likelihood that Sisters were gaining an upper hand in battle against anything is frankly ludicrously small. Look at almost every other piece of Sisters fluff post-Vandire. All they do is die. They are worse than guardsmen.

sigh, what ever helps you deal with your dislike man. I just find it funny some people assume there is no reason and it was just for random LuLz. Its like assuming that the any world proclaimed tainted and destroyed without 90 pages of explaining just why was for gaks and giggles.

We have the info, they did it. That is all the info we have. with that info there are two outcomes as to why it was done, You can assume They did it for laughs or they had a reason. Most people assume they had a reason if they did something like that. I mean if they had stated they burned the world because they thought it was tainted would that have been "Just because as well?"

Until more info is printed those are your options. You seem to like the first option for some reason.

Right, they bathe in the blood of the innocent for fun, not for Khorne.

Hunterindarkness wrote:sigh, what ever helps you deal with your dislike man. I just find it funny some people assume there is no reason and it was just for random LuLz. Its like assuming that the any world proclaimed tainted and destroyed without 90 pages of explaining just why was for gaks and giggles.

We have the info, they did it. That is all the info we have. with that info there are two outcomes as to why it was done, You can assume They did it for laughs or they had a reason. Most people assume they had a reason if they did something like that. I mean if they had stated they burned the world because they thought it was tainted would that have been "Just because as well?"

Until more info is printed those are your options. You seem to like the first option for some reason.

Oh, I presume lots of reasons, each of which equally plausible given the existing data:

1) FOR KHORNE!
2) FOR KHAINE!
3) FOR THE NIGHTBRINGER!
4) FOR LULZ!
5) FOR MISOGYNISM!

See the problem yet?

Melissia wrote:Right, they bathe in the blood of the innocent for fun, not for Khorne.

Since when is Khrone not fun?


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Unit1126PLL wrote:
5) FOR MISOGYNISM!

See the problem yet?

This seems to be hard wired into the whole history of the IoM and not just the gray knights. The Sisters, from what I can tell ,exist to be killed in as many bloody and painful way as someone can think up. And then folks wonder why people hate SoB.

As for the rest, what we have been told that they were not corrupted. So that pretty much puts us back to luLZ or had a reason.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Since when is Khrone not fun?

Since the Fall of the Eldar.

Melissia wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Since when is Khrone not fun?

Since the Fall of the Eldar.

Still seems fun to me, even if not as fun as torturer porn. Still ranks higher then plague boy and Mr. Wizard, IMHO.

Mr. Wizard gives you trippy dreams, man.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:What would happen if Blood Angels found the planet and had bathed in the blood of the pure Sisters?

There would be even MORE assertions that the Blood Angels had gone over the edge.

That's exactly what happened here - if any Imperial army, Guard, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, any of them, landed on a planet and then bathed in the blood of the slaughtered local Sisters convent, I think they would be considered pretty fethed up.

While true, the Gray knights do work for the inquisition. It may not be listed, but you better believe they were tested for corruption after they got back. As the unit was not purged (that we know of) then it is assumed no corruption was found.

I understand your point, but our problem lies with the supposed "necessity" of the action.

The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

And here we go again.


Grey Knights are Spiritually incorruptable. They will never bow to chaos or serve them willingly.

They are only extremely resistant to physical corruption.


Chaos can still kill you and do nasty things with your body but it will never be consentual. Basically the only way Chaos can get some GK snu-snu is to rape them. They can be overpowered, they cannot be corrupted.

The Bloodtide could kill the GKs. It might even drive them mad, but it would never cause them to become servents of Khorne.


The GKs needed to be able to wade through the Bloodtide to get to the epicenter and destroy it. They couldn't be sure they wouldn't die before they got there, in which case everyone would have died in vain. So they took the only thing they had avaliable that could resist the Bloodtide, the Sisters blood.

Was it a horrible thing? Yeah, but it was required to get the mission done. And thats what the GKs do. They have to combat the daemon, no matter the cost.

Melissia wrote:Mr. Wizard gives you trippy dreams, man.

Which is why he ranks higher then Plague boy. I think freaking everyone ranks Higher then Plague boy, though.

Grey Templar wrote:
Grey Knights are Spiritually incorruptable. They will never bow to chaos or serve them willingly.

They are only extremely resistant to physical corruption.


Chaos can still kill you and do nasty things with your body but it will never be consentual. Basically the only way Chaos can get some GK snu-snu is to rape them. They can be overpowered, they cannot be corrupted.

The Bloodtide could kill the GKs. It might even drive them mad, but it would never cause them to become servents of Khorne.

My main problem with this "It could kill the GKs, or drive them mad" is that the Bloodtide was resisted by some of the Sisters of Battle. Normal, mortal humans. To say that the Grey Knights couldn't resist the effects of the Bloodtide while the Sisters can is to say that the Sisters should be doing the GKs job!

Grey Templar wrote:
The GKs needed to be able to wade through the Bloodtide to get to the epicenter and destroy it. They couldn't be sure they wouldn't die before they got there, in which case everyone would have died in vain. So they took the only thing they had avaliable that could resist the Bloodtide, the Sisters blood.

Was it a horrible thing? Yeah, but it was required to get the mission done. And thats what the GKs do. They have to combat the daemon, no matter the cost.

Again, this follows on flawed reasoning.

If a few of the mortal, human Sisters can resist the effects of the Bloodtide, surely an incorruptible demi-god superhuman could! Without needing to bathe in the mortal's blood.

Omegus wrote:But the likelihood that Sisters were gaining an upper hand in battle against anything is frankly ludicrously small. Look at almost every other piece of Sisters fluff post-Vandire. All they do is die. They are worse than guardsmen.

And Omegus pulls the words right out of my mouth.

Especially the:

All they do is die.

Which is precisely the problem. For a "special faction" that supposed to stand out from the Imperial Guardsmen ~ whose operative role in most fiction that doesn't focus on the heroic exploits of "a Comissar and his crew who are "different" is to essentially die - they perform even worse than the IG.

The SoB have a direct tie to the Emperor through the Living Saints. Somehow this gives them additional resistance to Chaos on a physical level.


I am more inclined to chalf the incident up to the Sister's fluff being so horribly non-existant that there are some flaws. Which unfortunantly makes it into other fluff and screws it up.

That and GW has some wierd urge to beat up on the SoB for no apparent reason. Even their own codex has them dying all the time.

Yes, GW is quite stupid in that regard.

Grey Templar wrote:The SoB have a direct tie to the Emperor through the Living Saints. Somehow this gives them additional resistance to Chaos on a physical level.

So you admit, then, that the Sisters are more capable of doing the GKs job then the GKs, since their helmetless, mortal-human selves can survive where no Space Marine dare tread.

Curious.

Also, hilarious. My respect for factions in numbers:

Sisters +10; total: 37/50
Guard +5; total: 44/50
Space Marines; -20: 4/50
Grey Knights; -30: -30/50

Unit1126PLL wrote:
My main problem with this "It could kill the GKs, or drive them mad" is that the Bloodtide was resisted by some of the Sisters of Battle. Normal, mortal humans. To say that the Grey Knights couldn't resist the effects of the Bloodtide while the Sisters can is to say that the Sisters should be doing the GKs job!

Not everything is so cut and dry. Say Sisters have a 10% chance to pass their fortitude check not to flip out or explode. Grey Knights, on the other hand, have a 95% chance to resist. Since a single Grey Knight is way more valuable than even a 100 Sisters, killing a few dozen stragglers to eliminate that 5% seems like a good idea.

Their reputation for incorruptibility stems from none ever having been corrupted. So there's also the possibility that the reason none have ever fallen is because they take every precaution they can.

Yes, our dear Matthew is an awful writer. Yes, this particular piece is among the most ambiguous and befuddling. Yes, we have to infer a rationale that lets their actions make sense. But it's still far easier to mesh with existing fluff that they had a good reason, rather than just going "lulz dey worship Khorne". Frankly, the latter viewpoint can only be held by someone who is being intentionally obtuse, which is otherwise known as trolling.

Omegus wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
My main problem with this "It could kill the GKs, or drive them mad" is that the Bloodtide was resisted by some of the Sisters of Battle. Normal, mortal humans. To say that the Grey Knights couldn't resist the effects of the Bloodtide while the Sisters can is to say that the Sisters should be doing the GKs job!

Not everything is so cut and dry. Say Sisters have a 10% chance to pass their fortitude check not to flip out or explode. Grey Knights, on the other hand, have a 95% chance to resist. Since a single Grey Knight is way more valuable than even a 100 Sisters, killing a few dozen stragglers to eliminate that 5% seems like a good idea.

Their reputation for incorruptibility stems from none ever having been corrupted. So there's also the possibility that the reason none have ever fallen is because they take every precaution they can.

Yes, our dear Matthew is an awful writer. Yes, this particular piece is among the most ambiguous and befuddling. Yes, we have to infer a rationale that lets their actions make sense. But it's still far easier to mesh with existing fluff that they had a good reason, rather than just going "lulz dey worship Khorne".

I thought their codex stated that they were literally incorruptible.

If it's just a reputation from all their precautions, then all the uproar against fallen Grey Knights makes no sense, since in the entire galaxy, it's possible that Brother Alphonso forgot to use the right kind of dish soap on his body armor.

They never forget, the dish soap is dispensed from their nipples.

Iranna wrote:

American English differs from "Proper" English in many of its word's spellings. Gray is one of such words.

Actually its the other way around. The spelling of Grey and the addition of things like the ou in colour (vs. color) occurred after the colonies split from the Empire, ergo we are the ones speaking 'proper' English while British English is a more recent evolution of the language.

Anyway, to the matter at hand, people who are saying that it was an act of dedication to Khorne, or who just generally think it to be poor writing, lack reading comprehension as well as a thorough lack of understanding of older fluff. Additionally, the piece is written to be purposely ambiguous to make us think along these lines to add some depth and flavor and de-marysue-ify the faction. That is all.

Grey Templar wrote:I am more inclined to chalf the incident up to the Sister's fluff being so horribly non-existant that there are some flaws. Which unfortunantly makes it into other fluff and screws it up.

That and GW has some wierd urge to beat up on the SoB for no apparent reason. Even their own codex has them dying all the time.

That's pretty much my problem with the whole GK incident. Its not about the rational behind their actions.

It is fiction after all - and rationals can always be invented (now whether or not everyone accepts those reasons.. )

Rather, its just another domino in a very very long line of "let's beat on the SoB."

Literally every other faction has their day in the sun. Tyranids devour worlds, Chaos corrupts countless, Tau forcibly convert/peacefully convince folks to join the Greater Good, Space Marines wipe out evil threat, IG suffers massive casualities but hold the line.


the SoB? Just keeps on dying.

I can't even understand this from a purely business perspective - no one would ever want to play a faction whose role is predominantely that of victim.

Yeah, you're giving Ward too much credit.

I think that You need to look at the intent of the codex and their fluff as a whole and try to look beyond some of the terrible and ambiguous writing in the details.

The Grey knights are supposed to seem like Kights in Shining Armor at first glance, but when you look a little closer, they are not as "good" as they seem. This is the main theme of their codex. Some of the things go too far on the "Shining Armor" side (ie. draigo). Some things go a little too far on the "At any Cost" side (ie. the bloodtide).

In the previous book, they were puritans, who would never allow any chaos to survive or to help them. In the most recent incarnation they are radicals. They are allowed to do whatever is the EASIEST way to fight chaos, not necessarily the BEST or most GOOD way. (I am also lead to believe that this is closer to their "original fluff" but I have not read it myself)


Was killing the sisters to fight the bloodtide the ONLY way to fight it? probably not. They may have been a different way, maybe involving allying with the sisters, avoiding or containing the bloodtide, ect.
Was it is EASIEST way to fight the bloodtide? Yes, and they Grey Knights take the easy way out, no matter the cost.



Another example is the ships full of thousands of refugees with one possible daemon mixed in.
Could the Grey Knights have enlisted some help, screened all of the people looking for the daemon, found him and spared all of the people? yes
Is it easier to just kill all of them instead? Yes, and they Grey Knights took the easier option.

svendrex wrote:
I think that You need to look at the intent of the codex and their fluff as a whole and try to look beyond some of the terrible and ambiguous writing in the details.

The Grey knights are supposed to seem like Kights in Shining Armor at first glance, but when you look a little closer, they are not as "good" as they seem. This is the main theme of their codex. Some of the things go too far on the "Shining Armor" side (ie. draigo). Some things go a little too far on the "At any Cost" side (ie. the bloodtide).

In the previous book, they were puritans, who would never allow any chaos to survive or to help them. In the most recent incarnation they are radicals. They are allowed to do whatever is the EASIEST way to fight chaos, not necessarily the BEST or most GOOD way. (I am also lead to believe that this is closer to their "original fluff" but I have not read it myself)


Was killing the sisters to fight the bloodtide the ONLY way to fight it? probably not. They may have been a different way, maybe involving allying with the sisters, avoiding or containing the bloodtide, ect.
Was it is EASIEST way to fight the bloodtide? Yes, and they Grey Knights take the easy way out, no matter the cost.



Another example is the ships full of thousands of refugees with one possible daemon mixed in.
Could the Grey Knights have enlisted some help, screened all of the people looking for the daemon, found him and spared all of the people? yes
Is it easier to just kill all of them instead? Yes, and they Grey Knights took the easier option.

See this is exactly my problem:
1) The Grey Knights are Radical. Nice, so they're toeing the line between regular human and damnation. They're not even pure anymore.

2) The Grey Knights take the easy way out. Nice, so if they could destroy the entire Imperium, they would, because it's easier than defending it.\

Way to go, Grey Knights.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
See this is exactly my problem:
1) The Grey Knights are Radical. Nice, so they're toeing the line between regular human and damnation. They're not even pure anymore.

2) The Grey Knights take the easy way out. Nice, so if they could destroy the entire Imperium, they would, because it's easier than defending it.\

Way to go, Grey Knights.

You seem not to understand just what inquisitors are and just what they do. The Gray Knights are NOT space marines. They are agents of the Inquisition. And facing something like that, they damned well will do what it takes to destroy it. All but the most extreme Puritans would have done about the same. That does not make them radicals, it makes them agents of the Inquisition doing their duty.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
See this is exactly my problem:
1) The Grey Knights are Radical. Nice, so they're toeing the line between regular human and damnation. They're not even pure anymore.

2) The Grey Knights take the easy way out. Nice, so if they could destroy the entire Imperium, they would, because it's easier than defending it.\

Way to go, Grey Knights.

You seem not to understand just what inquisitors are and just what they do. The Gray Knights are NOT space marines. They are agents of the Inquisition. And facing something like that, they damned well will do what it takes to destroy it. All but the most extreme Puritans would have done about the same. That does not make them radicals, it makes them agents of the Inquisition doing their duty.

This is disingenuous.

You know full well that any inquisitor who takes the same measures as the Grey Knights is considered Radical. Look at Inquistor Quixos, or any of the inquisitors in the Radical's Handbook for Dark Heresy.

Wielding a Daemon Weapon by the head of the Purifiers is enough to condemn the entire chapter, IMHO. It can't be destroyed, but there are other ways of disposing of it.

What I wonder in this story is what damn Grey Knight came up with the idea and why wasn't he smacked down hard in the head.

Well GKs are kinda like fratboys that way.

Unit1126PLL wrote:[
This is disingenuous.

You know full well that any inquisitor who takes the same measures as the Grey Knights is considered Radical. Look at Inquistor Quixos, or any of the inquisitors in the Radical's Handbook for Dark Heresy.

Not at all. Puritan inquisitor do way , way worse then what the Gray Knights did.

They did "bath in blood One and only one time for a very specific purpose", this does not even approach what some radicals do, such as bond demons, constantly use corrupting and vile artifacts and so forth.. Quixos did far, far, worse. He bound demons, he caused countless deaths and seemed to be using some daemon spawned artifact for a reason that demons told him it would do some good. He was not a radical, he was a corrupt and fallen inquisitor. You seem not to be able to tell the two apart.

A radical walks a fine line, the Gray Knights did not even come close to that line with that action. The Death and use of the SoB blood, who are duty bound to give their very lives for the IoM if needed is not even a blimp of say a puritan inquisitor ordering the death of a whole world and countless billions of lives. That is not called radical, using hundreds of thousands of IG in a hopeless rush for a division is not "Radical". Man you really dislike this one action and are trying to call it something it simply is not.

You can dislike it, but it simply is not all that radical a move for agents of the Inquisition.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:[
This is disingenuous.

You know full well that any inquisitor who takes the same measures as the Grey Knights is considered Radical. Look at Inquistor Quixos, or any of the inquisitors in the Radical's Handbook for Dark Heresy.

Not at all. Puritan inquisitor do way , way worse then what the Gray Knights did.

They did "bath in blood One and only one time for a very specific purpose", this does not even approach what some radicals do, such as bond demons, constantly use corrupting and vile artifacts and so forth.. Quixos did far, far, worse. He bound demons, he caused countless deaths and seemed to be using some daemon spawned artifact for a reason that demons told him it would do some good. He was not a radical, he was a corrupt and fallen inquisitor. You seem not to be able to tell the two apart.

A radical walks a fine line, the Gray Knights did not even come close to that line with that action. The Death and use of the SoB blood, who are duty bound to give their very lives for the IoM if needed is not even a blimp of say a puritan inquisitor ordering the death of a whole world and countless billions of lives. That is not called radical, using hundreds of thousands of IG in a hopeless rush for a division is not "Radical". Man you really dislike this one action and are trying to call it something it simply is not.

You can dislike it, but it simply is not all that radical a move for agents of the Inquisition.

It's not just that one action; I have a list made up:

1) The Bathing in Blood incident.
2) Wielding a Daemon Weapon on the part of one of their highest officers.
3) Their Chapter Master is galavanting about in the Warp, consorting with who knows what and doing who knows what.
4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).
5) They kill others for being possibly corrupted, while not considering the possibility within their own ranks. Except when they kill Sisters - then it's possible for them to be corrupted.

Those are my primary beefs with the chapter.

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

Some psykers are a necessity, yes. I don't deny it, and neither do the Black Templars. I don't have to like it, though, and I certainly don't have to stop my Magos from researching alternatives.

...I hope no one from my DH group is reading this.

Usually blood sacrifice is looked down upon, and the GKs WOULD be declared heretics for it by most of the Imperium, especially given who was sacrificed.

Their secrecy saved them from their heresy of course.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

Some psykers are a necessity, yes. I don't deny it, and neither do the Black Templars. I don't have to like it, though, and I certainly don't have to stop my Magos from researching alternatives.

...I hope no one from my DH group is reading this.

So basically if they're useful they get to live?
That's good because all psykers seem to be sueful in some way or another...

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:4) Their entire Chapter is psykers, providing a conduit for warp energy (I'm not a fan of psykers in general; I'm a Black Templar in that way).

Without psykers the Imperium would fall apart...

Some psykers are a necessity, yes. I don't deny it, and neither do the Black Templars. I don't have to like it, though, and I certainly don't have to stop my Magos from researching alternatives.

...I hope no one from my DH group is reading this.

So basically if they're useful they get to live?
That's good because all psykers seem to be sueful in some way or another...

Not useful. Necessary.

Clues in the name, people. GREY knights. Not White, not Black. Grey. They may be incorruptible, but that doesn't make them good.

Technically they're silver.

Just to add my two cents in: People can "worship" a chaos god with out knowing it can't they? Just through certain actions they can empower one and/or weaken another (if just slightly). With that thinking... I'm sure coating their armor in the blood of their innocent friend/allies didn't HURT Khorne any...

WarrKing wrote:Just to add my two cents in: People can "worship" a chaos god with out knowing it can't they? Just through certain actions they can empower one and/or weaken another (if just slightly). With that thinking... I'm sure coating their armor in the blood of their innocent friend/allies didn't HURT Khorne any...

They can feed a god without meaning to, but worship has to be active AFAIK.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

Nurgle wrote:Yes but it says that the grey knights are PURE and untaintable. So why would they need the blood?

Off the top of my head, perhaps because the Bloodtide was a physical infection with psychic components which could over-power and destroy the Grey Knights?

Unit1126PLL wrote:And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

Just a thought, but perhaps they were rear-echelon troops who hadn't seen combat yet, or had simply not actually touched the bloodtide yet. Lack of exposure doesn't mean immunity.

Rimmy wrote:HOWEVER, I do have a problem with this. the armor and black carapace that ALL marines have is impervious to liquids and even space so long as they're wearing their helmet. its a closed loop system.

so a group of marines could be walking through a lake of blood and be just fine.

Really? I missed the part where it specified skin contact was necessary. Oh yeah, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

Nurgle wrote:Yes but it says that the grey knights are PURE and untaintable. So why would they need the blood?

Off the top of my head, perhaps because the Bloodtide was a physical infection with psychic components which could over-power and destroy the Grey Knights?

Unit1126PLL wrote:And how was this infection, which some regular-human Sisters were able to fight off, going to infect sealed-armor Space Marines?

Just a thought, but perhaps they were rear-echelon troops who hadn't seen combat yet, or had simply not actually touched the bloodtide yet. Lack of exposure doesn't mean immunity.

Rimmy wrote:HOWEVER, I do have a problem with this. the armor and black carapace that ALL marines have is impervious to liquids and even space so long as they're wearing their helmet. its a closed loop system.

so a group of marines could be walking through a lake of blood and be just fine.

Really? I missed the part where it specified skin contact was necessary. Oh yeah, it isn't.

To address your points in order:

1) Anointing oneself in the blood of the pure protects one from physical harm? LOL! Why do we need tanks when all we REALLY needed was the blood of the pure!?
2) So the Sisters who had touched it and were mere mortal humans are not evidence that you can be immune to it, ESPECIALLY if you are a demigod superhuman?
3) I missed the part where it said it spread through means that sealed armor couldn't prevent.

Unit1126PLL wrote: 1) Anointing oneself in the blood of the pure protects one from physical harm? LOL! Why do we need tanks when all we REALLY needed was the blood of the pure!?

Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) So the Sisters who had touched it and were mere mortal humans are not evidence that you can be immune to it, ESPECIALLY if you are a demigod superhuman?
3) I missed the part where it said it spread through means that sealed armor couldn't prevent.

You're choosing to imagine two things here.

Firstly that the sisters in question had been exposed to the bloodtide and resisted it, and secondly that the bloodtide itself require skin contact to be effective. Why are you imagining those things?

Kaldor wrote:Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

You shoot the attacker

Melissia wrote:

Kaldor wrote:Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

You shoot the attacker

lol!

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote: 1) Anointing oneself in the blood of the pure protects one from physical harm? LOL! Why do we need tanks when all we REALLY needed was the blood of the pure!?

Don't disingenuous. Particular types of armour defend against particular types of weapon. What good is a tank against a psychic attack?

Unit1126PLL wrote:2) So the Sisters who had touched it and were mere mortal humans are not evidence that you can be immune to it, ESPECIALLY if you are a demigod superhuman?
3) I missed the part where it said it spread through means that sealed armor couldn't prevent.

You're choosing to imagine two things here.

Firstly that the sisters in question had been exposed to the bloodtide and resisted it, and secondly that the bloodtide itself require skin contact to be effective. Why are you imagining those things?

Well, it did say that the Sisters had resisted the taint if I'm not mistaken. And if they hadn't been exposed, then the Grey Knights still killed them for no reason on the off chance that their blood would protect them from the Bloodtide even though the blood inside the sisters that were corrupted didn't do much to protect them.

What I always find rather fun about this debate is that that I can imagine a bunch of imperial officials arguing about this topic and using the exact same arguments as the people here. One side points out that it's tantamount to khorn worship. Then the other side responds that the grey knights are incorruptible.

I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the Grey Knights would have been just as susceptible to the Bloodtide as your average human.

Hazardous Harry wrote:I don't understand where people are getting the idea that the Grey Knights would have been just as susceptible to the Bloodtide as your average human.

No one is saying just as. However as different as an Astarte is, they are not immune to plagues and the like, they might be very resistant but not Immune. They dies just like normal humans if you hit them with something nasty enough.

But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

If half of an Imperial Guard regiment fell to the influence of some forbidden artifact, the response of the Grey Knights would likely not be to kill the other half and anoint themselves in their blood to act as protection. Instead, what the Grey Knights actually do is work with the loyalists to kill the infected and destroy the artifact. Whether or not they then turn upon the survivors is an entirely different matter.

Much is left unsaid in what is written. It may have been a way to cover that extra 5% as someone said in this thread. Or it may have been something different to that set of Sisters.

Again it simply does not go into details. All it says is more or less they thought they needed to. Kinda stands to reasons they had a reason for this.

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I understand your point, but our problem lies with the supposed "necessity" of the action.

The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

No, they have been described as "incorruptible" in terms of them not turning against the Imperium.

They still die just as easily to Daemons and sorcerous powers. Seeing as how the Bloodtide in this depiction was a physical ailment, there's still plenty of chance for them to be harmed by it.

I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

Grey Templar wrote:Rule 1, 4-chan is NOT a place to get information from

The story you describe did happen, but it is severly misinterperted.


There was a planet that was under the influence of the Bloodtide. It is a daemonic infection that takes over your body. you either explode in a shower of gore OR you begin mindless bloodletting.

There was a convent of sisters, some of their members we able to resist the Bloodtide with their purity.


The GKs arrived and found the sisters. The GKs didn't know if they could also proove immune to the Bloodtide. Just because they can't be corrupted won't prevent them from exploding or going crazy, its not en either or deal. Nurgle can still make GKs sick, he just can't make them join him. Same kinda deal with the Bloodtide.

So the GKs killed the Sisters and coated their armor in their blood. This allowed them to avoid the Bloodtide long enough for them to stop it.

Nothing says the Sisters weren't willing sacrifices. There was no malice involved, it just needed to be done. They were probably happy to lay down their lives if it meant stopping the infection.

A great explanation.

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Hazardous Harry wrote:And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

Because it's a poorly written, poorly thought out piece of fluff. Sure it's canon, but it's still kinda crap canon.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.

Did they? There's no mention of any of them turning, or showing signs of infection. The killing of the sisters and using their blood was a precaution, not a cure.

Hazardous Harry wrote:And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

Because it's a poorly written, poorly thought out piece of fluff. Sure it's canon, but it's still kinda crap canon.

Agreed.

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

It wasn't a good portion, it was a small handful who were cowering in their chapel as the whole world tore itself apart.

Again, ritual, blood or otherwise, is extremely important and powerful in 40K. Just belief can make things happen, as can be seen with the Saints and other manifestations of the Emperor's power. Orks are an extreme example of this, but we also see it with the Space Wolves and the various fetishes, wards and lucky charms they festoon themselves with. Grey Knights using parts of humans in their battle against Chaos is nothing new. How do you think psybolts are made? In the older fluff, they were basically made out of ground-up pariahs, and I think that's still the case in the new codex.

And yet again, there's no discrepancy between a few Sisters resisting and the Grey Knights wanting to take additional precautions. If 1/10 Sisters are immune, and 1/10 Grey Knights are susceptible, it's worth sacrificing all of the Sisters if that saves even one GK. And it's fully within the character of the Sisters to sacrifice themselves in this circumstance. The problem is not what happened, just how poorly it's written. We have to work even harder to justify Draigo: it's an allegory on the futility of their war/it's a tall-tale they tell recruits as a bedtime story, Tzeench is fething with him, the whole thing is a Warp-induced hallucination, etc.

But yes, I do not like the new Grey Knights being radicals (and they are very much radicals). Mainly, because this cheapens the true threat and insidious nature of Chaos. If with some additional mental discipline and a few precautions, you can use the most powerful sorceries/Chaos artifacts, then Chaos is very much conquerable. That means the Emperor was wrong (this is starting to become a habit), Magnus' speech at Nikea was completely right (which apparently Malcador ended up agreeing with; Guilliman certainly did in Know No Fear), and the latter's fall and really the whole Heresy could have been easily avoided with a bit of prophylaxis.

Grey Knights went from a small cadre of the best humanity had to offer, fighting an unwinnable war against an impossible enemy, to these unstoppable badasses that effortlessly donkey-punch the greatest of daemonic entities on their own home turf, and make new weapons out of their remains with their friggin' minds. Oh sure, the war is still unwinnable, but the battles and their enemy have been reduced to a trans-galactic game of whack-a-mole. It cheapens the whole setting of 40K.

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

I'm sure they do whenever they face the Bloodtide.

Omegus wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

It wasn't a good portion, it was a small handful who were cowering in their chapel as the whole world tore itself apart.

Wrong, it was a significant portion of the attack force attempting to storm the basillica. This is almost the exact opposite of what you stated.

Again, ritual, blood or otherwise, is extremely important and powerful in 40K. Just belief can make things happen, as can be seen with the Saints and other manifestations of the Emperor's power. Orks are an extreme example of this, but we also see it with the Space Wolves and the various fetishes, wards and lucky charms they festoon themselves with. Grey Knights using parts of humans in their battle against Chaos is nothing new. How do you think psybolts are made? In the older fluff, they were basically made out of ground-up pariahs, and I think that's still the case in the new codex.

There's still never been any precedent for turning on the allies you were currently fighting alongside for this purpose. What you're talking about is a preparation made pre-battle and most certainly not from allies in the field.

And yet again, there's no discrepancy between a few Sisters resisting and the Grey Knights wanting to take additional precautions. If 1/10 Sisters are immune, and 1/10 Grey Knights are susceptible, it's worth sacrificing all of the Sisters if that saves even one GK. And it's fully within the character of the Sisters to sacrifice themselves in this circumstance. The problem is not what happened, just how poorly it's written. We have to work even harder to justify Draigo: it's an allegory on the futility of their war/it's a tall-tale they tell recruits as a bedtime story, Tzeench is fething with him, the whole thing is a Warp-induced hallucination, etc.

There's nothing, at all, to indicate the Sisters were willing participants. And, given the secret nature of the Grey Knights, they would have been the most gullible idiots if they had been consenting.

But yes, I do not like the new Grey Knights being radicals (and they are very much radicals). Mainly, because this cheapens the true threat and insidious nature of Chaos. If with some additional mental discipline and a few precautions, you can use the most powerful sorceries/Chaos artifacts, then Chaos is very much conquerable. That means the Emperor was wrong (this is starting to become a habit), Magnus' speech at Nikea was completely right (which apparently Malcador ended up agreeing with; Guilliman certainly did in Know No Fear), and the latter's fall and really the whole Heresy could have been easily avoided with a bit of prophylaxis.

The decision at Nikea was about sorcery rather than Psykers.

Grey Knights went from a small cadre of the best humanity had to offer, fighting an unwinnable war against an impossible enemy, to these unstoppable badasses that effortlessly donkey-punch the greatest of daemonic entities on their own home turf, and make new weapons out of their remains with their friggin' minds. Oh sure, the war is still unwinnable, but the battles and their enemy have been reduced to a trans-galactic game of whack-a-mole. It cheapens the whole setting of 40K.

On the whole, I'd agree.

Kaldor wrote:I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

Actualyl it's supposed to be a unique kind of radiation that effects Kryptonian bodies, reducing them to normal (in most cases) where in the lack of said radiation they are capable of amazing feats.

Of course, its actual effects change from writer to writer. Best not get too far in to it

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

And if it really is so effective, why don't they have similar practices going on all the time?

I'm sure they do whenever they face the Bloodtide.

So seeing as they would have already prepared for, turning on the sisters really was still just as unnecessary then? Good to know.

Melissia wrote:Of course, its actual effects change from writer to writer. Best not get too far in to it

Thats the point. I could start researching the possible effects of radiation and laugh at the way kryptonite is used by the writers, but why would I? I'm buying into the concept that it makes superman sick. Thats all I need to know. Same deal with the Bloodtide. I don't need to be told why, specifically, this particular type of Chaos evil poses a threat to the GK, nor do I need to understand exactly how it could compromise their sanity or infect their bodies. It's quite literally magic, and I'm ok with that.

I just need to know it could be bad for their mojo if it gets on them. Thats a perfectly reasonable assertion, and is not at all compromised by the fact that some other people encountered it without immediately fatal effect. Not everyone that smokes gets cancer. That doesn't mean it's safe to smoke.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

Actually, he does have free reign to change existing canon. He is GW's codex writer.

If he wanted to make a pink fluffy bunny chapter he could. assuming he got approval.

I would so totally buy that chapter.

Grey Templar wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

Actually, he does have free reign to change existing canon. He is GW's codex writer.

If he wanted to make a pink fluffy bunny chapter he could. assuming he got approval.

Yes, and you can be rest assured the amount of vitriol and criticism would be far greater than what is going on know. Even if it is canon, I can still legitimately say it's gakky canon. Especially when the evidence is there to suggest so.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:I still fail to see how the blood of the Sororitas would help make the Grey Knights proof against the Bloodtide, especially where all their wards and psychic shielding would fail.

Because you're not a sorceror, or a psyker, or at all learned in the ways of the warp and daemonkind. Seriously, what were you expecting to know? I mean, thats like saying I don't understand how Kryptonite affects Superman. I don't have to understand the specific chemical reactions to know that it works. I just have to take the word of the author.

The author does not have free reign to mutilate existing canon. I can say that Superman suddenly eating babies to act as an immunity to Kryptonite is a shoddy piece of canon, mainly because it's unprecedented, unsupported and awesome disturbing.

Actually, he does have free reign to change existing canon. He is GW's codex writer.

If he wanted to make a pink fluffy bunny chapter he could. assuming he got approval.

Yes, and you can be rest assured the amount of vitriol and criticism would be far greater than what is going on know. Even if it is canon, I can still legitimately say it's gakky canon. Especially when the evidence is there to suggest so.

Its not gakky, it fits in with other established canon.

You are free to not like it, but it is non-theless existing and approved. I don't exactly agree with it, but neither am I opposed to it. It is justifiable in the context of the currwent canonm and hence I will defend it.

Kaldor wrote:

Melissia wrote:Of course, its actual effects change from writer to writer. Best not get too far in to it

Thats the point. I could start researching the possible effects of radiation and laugh at the way kryptonite is used by the writers, but why would I? I'm buying into the concept that it makes superman sick. Thats all I need to know. Same deal with the Bloodtide. I don't need to be told why, specifically, this particular type of Chaos evil poses a threat to the GK, nor do I need to understand exactly how it could compromise their sanity or infect their bodies. It's quite literally magic, and I'm ok with that.

I just need to know it could be bad for their mojo if it gets on them. Thats a perfectly reasonable assertion, and is not at all compromised by the fact that some other people encountered it without immediately fatal effect. Not everyone that smokes gets cancer. That doesn't mean it's safe to smoke.

I think the reason why there is a large number of folks who complain about this whole topic re: GK and Bloodtide is that they feel its a direct challenge to the core conception of the GK. They don't buy into it and are expressing their displeasure.

As i've stated before - you can come up with a rational for anything in fiction, but it is the audience that decides at the end of the day whether it is a positive thing or not.

Taking the comic book example for a second - if someone invented a form of kryptonite whose effects were found to be "off-key" from what has come to past and enough rancor was made about it, the likelihood of that writer staying on the Superman line diminishes. If the person continues to make similar moves that angers the fan base - they may prematurely end his run on the line.

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.

Other than the majority of Sisters either exploding in a shower of gore or starting to slaughter each other in a frenzy of bloodlust, with those unaffected having to hold out against a veritable onslaught of Bloodletters?

There's a reason it states that the "surviving Sisters of Battle" in the piece. We may not have the exact numbers, but it's clearly meant to portray that the Sisters were affected and that those who were not were the minority, rather than the majority.

Why would the sisters of Battle make such a sacrifice when they should be aware of the fact that the GK are incorruptible. I think the GK went in there and slaughtered them.

The blood had no effect whatsoever

Russ Mandarin wrote:Why would the sisters of Battle make such a sacrifice when they should be aware of the fact that the GK are incorruptible. I think the GK went in there and slaughtered them.

The blood had no effect whatsoever

I think you need to read the short piece of fluff being discussed before commenting.

I also think it would be handy to realize that "incorruptible" does not mean that you cannot be affected by Warp powers or physical ailments: like the Bloodtide, for example. If the Grey Knights were completely invulnerable to such a thing, they wouldn't need to wear Aegis armor or carry bolters and blades.

There is also the fact that the SoB will not be aware of who the GKs are.

In the GK omnibus the sisters there only know who the GKs were because their sister superior had served alongside them previously and recognized them. This shows that GKs do not execute SoB off hand like they would Guardsmen. Which shows they wouldn't have killed them unless it was required to get the job done.


The Bloodtide is completely justified on all accounts. Mat Ward is just a horrible writer.

How would the Knights re-act to it, being that it is a creation of Chaos? Or would they be able to partially resist it? So they'd still be enraged but be able to fight the corrupted sisters and such. In this situation, the Sister blood would do nothing, being that its an actual virus.

blood reaper wrote:How would the Knights re-act to it, being that it is a creation of Chaos? Or would they be able to partially resist it? So they'd still be enraged but be able to fight the corrupted sisters and such. In this situation, the Sister blood would do nothing, being that its an actual virus.

The "virus" is described as requiring blood to activate.

Coating yourself in blood would do something; namely acting as a kind of ablative armor that the virus would have to get through.

The other sisters where easily corrupted, so it wouldn't take much to get past it. Also, if I may compare it to the 'Rage' virus which passed through blood and saliva, would the Sister blood not also become like the blood tide virus and try to infect the Knight.

Kanluwen wrote:

blood reaper wrote:How would the Knights re-act to it, being that it is a creation of Chaos? Or would they be able to partially resist it? So they'd still be enraged but be able to fight the corrupted sisters and such. In this situation, the Sister blood would do nothing, being that its an actual virus.

The "virus" is described as requiring blood to activate.

Coating yourself in blood would do something; namely acting as a kind of ablative armor that the virus would have to get through.

So why not spill your own blood and cover your armor with it? I mean space marines heal incredibly fast but somehow they just had the genius idea that the SOB blood add even more protection from this virus.
Any logical sob would have told them the plan is stupid but then again they probably did which is why they got slaughtered.

Anyone working under the assumption that the Knights started slathering blood and gore on their armor, really needs to put down the keyboard, step back from the computer, and then kill themselves. Why argue so vehemently about something when you haven't read the source material? The Knights mixed the blood with various sacred unguents and oils, and used the mixture to anoint their armor. The actual amount of blood needed per Knight could have been quite small, who knows. Of course, this begs the question of why kill them rather than just taking a sample, but you could think up all sorts of justifications (must be life's blood, blah blah, whatever).

Hazardous Harry wrote:
The decision at Nikea was about sorcery rather than Psykers.

Maybe 10 years ago it was, but the current most comprehensive source we have on the Heresy are the Black Library novels, and in the context of those novels, Nikea was about all psykers. Even Astropaths and other essential personnel were affected, because they now started being followed around by "minders" with psy-blocking helms, a violent disposition and itchy trigger fingers.

What is the difference between the Alpha Legion and the Grey Knights (Chapter 666!), both secretive chapters shouting "For the Emperor":
1.) Alpha Legion was formed in the real world, Grey Knights in the warp (home planet moved to the warp during formation).
2.) Alpha Legions never did a blood rite.
So ...

Omegus wrote:Anyone working under the assumption that the Knights started slathering blood and gore on their armor, really needs to put down the keyboard, step back from the computer, and then kill themselves. Why argue so vehemently about something when you haven't read the source material? The Knights mixed the blood with various sacred unguents and oils, and used the mixture to anoint their armor. The actual amount of blood needed per Knight could have been quite small, who knows. Of course, this begs the question of why kill them rather than just taking a sample, but you could think up all sorts of justifications (must be life's blood, blah blah, whatever).

Thanks for proving yourself wrong

You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".

See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Kroothawk wrote:
Thanks for proving yourself wrong

Must be nice to be so deluded. Ignorance is bliss, so they say.

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".
See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Well, haven't read that, so can't comment on the quality of that book.
But seems, like Alpha Legion is about as evil as Grey Knights then

Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".
See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Well, haven't read that, so can't comment on the quality of that book.
But seems, like Alpha Legion is about as evil as Grey Knights then

Not even a little. AL works for chaos, they help it spread. They do not fight it, it really matters little if they "Think" they are in the right. They simply are not. They cause mass death, they ghelp spread fear and terror, they help the force of Chaos and do everything in their power to make the IoM anf the Human race as a whole fall.

The Grey Knights used the few surviving sisters blood as a talisman to fight off the plague. Talismans in 40k are a very real thing, faith is a very real thing, belief in a thing often makes it real in 40k.They are the militant arm of the Inquisition. An organization that does, vile, nasty things for the greater good of the IoM. They bio-plague whole hives, waste worlds, condemn possibly untainted people to death just to be sure. The Inquisition and by association the gray knights do bad, things because they must.Some of you people really and truly just do not get what they are. They are not nor never have been shining knights of uber good. They are the hard line of defense , the militant arm of the Ordo Malleus, They are not nice, they can't afford to be nice. RThey are not good, nor are they bad. The are given the duty to hunt down and eradicate the daemonic dangers for the good of Mankind.

They simply do what they must. Some of you are wanting them to be 'The Good guys". Well no such beast among the IoM. You have shades of gray and rat bastards one and all, just some less gray then others.

Kroothawk wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:You mean other than an Alpha Legion Daemon Prince being responsible for unleashing one of the two things called "the Bloodtide".
See: "Hunt for Voldorius" for more information.

Well, haven't read that, so can't comment on the quality of that book.
But seems, like Alpha Legion is about as evil as Grey Knights then

Well, I'd advise against reading it.

Ever.

Anyways. The "Bloodtide" in there is a semi-sentient cyberbioweapon which makes those infected with it bleed.
It makes them bleed all their bloods! And then it makes a "Bloodtide"!

I wish I was kidding.

Yeah, they arn't called White Knights, Good Knights, or even Silver Knights.

They are called Grey Knights because they stand between the light and the darkness. Forever treading the line between the 2, never deviating, never wavering. They are a shield against the darkness. stained by it, yet untainted. Pure of soul and heart, yet they are forced to commit horrendous crimes to protect their charge.

Kanluwen wrote:

Anyways. The "Bloodtide" in there is a semi-sentient cyberbioweapon which makes those infected with it bleed.
It makes them bleed all their bloods! And then it makes a "Bloodtide"!

I wish I was kidding.

What I took away was it happen to be a nasty nanoswarm. It infected blood and used it as a medium. It might not even have been "Blood" just looked it as a byproduct of using flesh for replication. It seemed to be A.I driven and a weapon, with a drive to infect and procreate. Maybe because I like games like Eclipse Phase, but I totally got the Bloodtide and did not find it all that silly.

Kanluwen wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:But the fact that a good portion of the Adepta Sororitas were proof against it would be a very strong indication that the Grey Knights (infinitely more prepared and designed to deal with such situations) would have little problem with it.

Except they did have problems with it, where the Sisters did not.

Other than the majority of Sisters either exploding in a shower of gore or starting to slaughter each other in a frenzy of bloodlust, with those unaffected having to hold out against a veritable onslaught of Bloodletters?

There's a reason it states that the "surviving Sisters of Battle" in the piece. We may not have the exact numbers, but it's clearly meant to portray that the Sisters were affected and that those who were not were the minority, rather than the majority.

That is one way of interpreting it, certainly. My opinion of the piece of fluff is about as low as a pregnant snail on the bottom of the Mariana Trench ,however, so that is not how I choose to interpret it.

It's just more gak-eating nonsense where GW decides to kill off more Sisters to make a different army look badass.

That's all it will ever be to me.

Melissia wrote:

It's just more gak-eating nonsense where GW decides to kill off more Sisters to make a different army look badass.

That's all it will ever be to me.

Unfortunately this is also what it's coming across as to me.

That the Sisters blood would have been more effective than anything the Grey Knights had on hand is unlikely. That the Grey Knights needed to turn on the sisters and slaughter them, to get an ad hoc immunity is even less so.

You would think that, in facing the Bloodtide (for what, the second time?) they would have already taken some measure of protection.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Melissia wrote:

It's just more gak-eating nonsense where GW decides to kill off more Sisters to make a different army look badass.

That's all it will ever be to me.

Unfortunately this is also what it's coming across as to me.

That the Sisters blood would have been more effective than anything the Grey Knights had on hand is unlikely. That the Grey Knights needed to turn on the sisters and slaughter them, to get an ad hoc immunity is even less so.

What exactly would they have on hand? "Super Special Anti-Bloodtide Formula: As Seen On TV!"? The blood alone was not going to be effective. Per the fluff entry for it, it was mixed with things that the Grey Knights had on hand to create a kind of barrier.

You would think that, in facing the Bloodtide (for what, the second time?) they would have already taken some measure of protection.

First time. There are two different Bloodtides. Andy Hoare created a silly one for "The Hunt for Voldorius", and Mat Ward created another one without realizing such a thing already existed.

There's no way to "take a measure of protection" for something you've never encountered before. It's also worth noting that the Bloodtide in the Grey Knights Codex was caused by the awakening of a stupidly powerful Daemon which had its material essence trapped inside a host and kept in stasis on a Shrineworld.

5 years from now there will be a new codex and none of this will have happened. The Sisters of Battle will actually be transvestite Space Marines and the Grey Knights will have joined forces with the Orks.

I hope to the Emperor that never happens, but I am just trying to point out how much a faction will change from codex to codex. So just leave it that you do or do not like a current incarnation and look forward/be curious about what they will be in their next incarnation.

The debate is fun though, I just hope people don't lose perspective and take it all too personally.

Not taking it personally, so much as I'm disliking it because it is poorly written nonsense.

Melissia wrote:Not taking it personally, so much as I'm disliking it because it is poorly written nonsense.

That more or less covers roughly 70% of all 40k fluff however. I do not think it is as bad as it seems, however it comes off as yet another "Umm Lets murders some SoB to show off how badass someone else is" mindset. I have yet to really come across anything with them in it that does not end it an overly messy often needless death. It might be out there but I have yet to see it.

Hazardous Harry wrote:That the Sisters blood would have been more effective than anything the Grey Knights had on hand is unlikely

I really don't get why you'd think that? It's a very particular Chaos 'thing' for which a very particular counter was needed. And part of that counter required the freshly spilled lifes blood of the innocent.

Kanluwen wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
I understand your point, but our problem lies with the supposed "necessity" of the action.

The reason our Knights in Shining Armor bathed in the Sister's blood is to avoid being corrupted. Unfortunately, they've already been described as literally incorruptible. There was no reason for them to do that, except "just because."

No, they have been described as "incorruptible" in terms of them not turning against the Imperium.

They still die just as easily to Daemons and sorcerous powers. Seeing as how the Bloodtide in this depiction was a physical ailment, there's still plenty of chance for them to be harmed by it.

But it isn't a physical ailment. Unless you care to explain how coating yourself in blood can ward off bacteria and viruses / other physical things.

Unit1126PLL wrote:But it isn't a physical ailment. Unless you care to explain how coating yourself in blood can ward off bacteria and viruses / other physical things.

It's a warp-spawned Chaos power. Call it a spell, a disease, whatever word you want. It will feth you up just as surely as a Nurgle plague or a bolt of Change.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:But it isn't a physical ailment. Unless you care to explain how coating yourself in blood can ward off bacteria and viruses / other physical things.

It's a warp-spawned Chaos power. Call it a spell, a disease, whatever word you want. It will feth you up just as surely as a Nurgle plague or a bolt of Change.

Well does it work through Daemonic / Warp means or not?

If it doesn't smearing blood over yourself won't work.

If it does, then the GKs natural protections should be enough. If they aren't, then the Sisters who were immune ought to be doing their job.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Well does it work through Daemonic / Warp means or not?

If it doesn't smearing blood over yourself won't work.

If it does, then the GKs natural protections should be enough. If they aren't, then the Sisters who were immune ought to be doing their job.

It's a warp spawned monstrosity. Not even the most learned of scholars can say exactly how it works, and enquiries too far along that path are indicitave of dangerous radicalism.

But it is known that the sacred protective ritual of St Dumas will keep it at bay. Unfortunately one of the components of that ritual is the freshly spilled lifes blood of the innocent.

To step 'out of character', there is no way of knowing exactly how it works. Further, the wards and mental conditioning of the Grey Knights make it difficult for enemy psykers to affect them, and weaken Daemons. But the Fires of Tzeench will still burn them, and the Plagues of Nurgle will still disease them, and evidently the Bloodtide still has the potential to drive them insane. Perhaps all of the exposed sisters would have gone insane with time, perhaps they were only slower to be effected, who knows?

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:Well does it work through Daemonic / Warp means or not?

If it doesn't smearing blood over yourself won't work.

If it does, then the GKs natural protections should be enough. If they aren't, then the Sisters who were immune ought to be doing their job.

It's a warp spawned monstrosity. Not even the most learned of scholars can say exactly how it works, and enquiries too far along that path are indicitave of dangerous radicalism.

But it is known that the sacred protective ritual of St Dumas will keep it at bay. Unfortunately one of the components of that ritual is the freshly spilled lifes blood of the innocent.

To step 'out of character', there is no way of knowing exactly how it works. Further, the wards and mental conditioning of the Grey Knights make it difficult for enemy psykers to affect them, and weaken Daemons. But the Fires of Tzeench will still burn them, and the Plagues of Nurgle will still disease them, and evidently the Bloodtide still has the potential to drive them insane. Perhaps all of the exposed sisters would have gone insane with time, perhaps they were only slower to be effected, who knows?

Ok, well here's my argument, which yours doesn't counter:

1) Physical harm may still hurt Grey Knights (as in, thermal energy from a fire, biological harm from bacteria, or neurological harm from chemical imbalances for example).
2) Mental harm does not hurt Grey Knights, especially mental harm that doesn't affect some mortals.
3) Spreading blood over oneself does not protect against physical harm.
4) Spreading blood over oneself may protect from mental harm of the "ritualistic" / warp-corruption variety.

Using these premises, I conclude:

1 + 3: Why anoint yourself with blood? You might as well have used acne medicine.
2 + 4: Why anoint yourself with blood? It can't be more protective than the armored soul / hexagrammatic wards / blessing of the Emperor / Aegis / other, more esoteric GK protections.

Therefore:

The Grey Knights need not smear blood all over themselves, because it was either a sickness / a fire / a chemical phenomenon OR it drove people nuts through some kind of warp-majick, against which the Grey Knights are preeminently protected.

I think we can all agree that GK's are flagrant homosexuals

The Blood was part of the ritual. It was a component in forming a talisman to ward off the bloodtide. The blood was not blood, it became a mystic ward. It was transformed, a part of the list ol ingredients the ritual called for. Why was it needed? Because it was needed. Why is any "Mystical" component needed? simply because that is what the spell/ritual calls for. It is not science, it does not need to make sense to work

Also,they did not just " Cover Themselves in blood" as many kept wrongly claiming. It says they used that blood as part of a ritual to make a potent Talisman. It was an freaking ingredient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1 + 3: Why anoint yourself with blood? You might as well have used acne medicine.
2 + 4: Why anoint yourself with blood? It can't be more protective than the armored soul / hexagrammatic wards / blessing of the Emperor / Aegis / other, more esoteric GK protections.

Therefore:

The Grey Knights need not smear blood all over themselves, because it was either a sickness / a fire / a chemical phenomenon OR it drove people nuts through some kind of warp-majick, against which the Grey Knights are preeminently protected.

And again you need to go an reread just what it says. They did number 1 and 2 on your list. They did not simply "Smear blood" on themselves. They used that blood to construct a talisman in a ritual.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The Blood was part of the ritual. It was a component in forming a talisman to ward off the bloodtide. The blood was not blood, it became a mystic ward. It was transformed, a part of the list ol ingredients the ritual called for. Why was it needed? Because it was needed. Why is any "Mystical" component needed? simply because that is what the spell/ritual calls for. It is not science, it does not need to make sense to work

Also,they did not just " Cover Themselves in blood" as many kept wrongly claiming. It says they used that blood as part of a ritual to make a potent Talisman. It was an freaking ingredient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
1 + 3: Why anoint yourself with blood? You might as well have used acne medicine.
2 + 4: Why anoint yourself with blood? It can't be more protective than the armored soul / hexagrammatic wards / blessing of the Emperor / Aegis / other, more esoteric GK protections.

Therefore:

The Grey Knights need not smear blood all over themselves, because it was either a sickness / a fire / a chemical phenomenon OR it drove people nuts through some kind of warp-majick, against which the Grey Knights are preeminently protected.

And again you need to go an reread just what it says. They did number 1 and 2 on your list. They did not simply "Smear blood" on themselves. They used that blood to construct a talisman in a ritual.

But some of the Sisters who did not have the talisman / did not perform the ritual were immune to it. So immunity can be achieved without using the blood of innocents.

Perhaps the Sisters of Battle should be doing the job of the GKs, since they don't need old and rarely-spoken of magitech rituals. They can withstand Chaos just with their normal-human guts.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

But some of the Sisters who did not have the talisman / did not perform the ritual were immune to it. So immunity can be achieved without using the blood of innocents.

Perhaps the Sisters of Battle should be doing the job of the GKs, since they don't need old and rarely-spoken of magitech rituals. They can withstand Chaos just with their normal-human guts.

who is to say that some Gray Knights would have not been immune as well? They do not take chances, the sisters where not all immune, they were losing, pretty badly it seemed. So the Knights did what was needed. They pulled out the old spell book, either killed the sisters in cold blood or the sisters Volunteered( It is unclear on which) and made a freaking talisman so they could finish the job. They sisters could not, they were falling, being corrupted and the planet was dying.

You simply have such a hate on for this you are bending and stretching every possible outcome to silly degrees to say there was no reason, when what we have in writing gives a few damned good ones. The blunt truth is as written in 40k so far SoB can't do gak but die. They sure as hell couldn't handle a demon infused nanoswarm from the darkage of man.

Unit1126PLL wrote: 2) Mental harm does not hurt Grey Knights, especially mental harm that doesn't affect some mortals.

Woah woah woah, where are you getting that from?

Unit1126PLL wrote:2 + 4: Why anoint yourself with blood? It can't be more protective than the armored soul / hexagrammatic wards / blessing of the Emperor / Aegis / other, more esoteric GK protections.

And where are you getting this from? One batch of warding does not necessarily provide 100% protection against all things warp based. Why would it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Further, just because some people did not immediately display symptoms does not mean they were unaffected. And further to THAT, even if some people had a natural immunity does not mean everyone will. Not everyone will catch cholera from tainted water, but it's still smart to treat your water before you drink it.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

But some of the Sisters who did not have the talisman / did not perform the ritual were immune to it. So immunity can be achieved without using the blood of innocents.

Perhaps the Sisters of Battle should be doing the job of the GKs, since they don't need old and rarely-spoken of magitech rituals. They can withstand Chaos just with their normal-human guts.

who is to say that some Gray Knights would have not been immune as well? They do not take chances, the sisters where not all immune, they were losing, pretty badly it seemed. So the Knights did what was needed. They pulled out the old spell book, either killed the sisters in cold blood or the sisters Volunteered( It is unclear on which) and made a freaking talisman so they could finish the job. They sisters could not, they were falling, being corrupted and the planet was dying.

I question the bolded phrase. IF the GKs were immune, then it wasn't needed. If they weren't immune, then perhaps the Sisters who were should be preserved, so that one day the Imperium can create good defenses, rather than the clearly inadequate ones they have now.

Hunterindarkness wrote:
You simply have such a hate on for this you are bending and stretching every possible outcome to silly degrees to say there was no reason, when what we have in writing gives a few damned good ones. The blunt truth is as written in 40k so far SoB can't do gak but die. They sure as hell couldn't handle a demon infused nanoswarm from the darkage of man.

The quote barely gives any reasons. And you are conflating two different Bloodtides - one is a DAoT weapon, the other is a daemonic force. They are not at all related except by their names.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote: 2) Mental harm does not hurt Grey Knights, especially mental harm that doesn't affect some mortals.

Woah woah woah, where are you getting that from?

From the statement that the Grey Knights are mortal and none have ever fallen. If you could mentally harm a Grey Knight, then that's a pretty huge chink in their defenses, since the warp is entirely concerned with one's mental well-being.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:2 + 4: Why anoint yourself with blood? It can't be more protective than the armored soul / hexagrammatic wards / blessing of the Emperor / Aegis / other, more esoteric GK protections.

And where are you getting this from? One batch of warding does not necessarily provide 100% protection against all things warp based. Why would it?

Because it flat-out says it does - they're incorruptible. That is not "almost incorruptible" or "Cannot be tainted by most things."

Of course, they can be hurt by physical warp manifestations, but bathing in blood hardly protects one from physical anything.

Kaldor wrote:
Further, just because some people did not immediately display symptoms does not mean they were unaffected. And further to THAT, even if some people had a natural immunity does not mean everyone will. Not everyone will catch cholera from tainted water, but it's still smart to treat your water before you drink it.

It's true. But rather than murdering the people who are immune to cholera and bathing in their blood because it will somehow protect you, why don't you study one to find out how to cure cholera in everyone?

Melissia wrote:Not taking it personally, so much as I'm disliking it because it is poorly written nonsense.

Right, and I don't think worthy of any serious discussion. It's a bit of kick-ass comic book spiel designed to get 13 year-olds to say 'wow awesome' and then go and buy a Dreadknight, and in that function no doubt it succeeds admirably.

Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I question the bolded phrase. IF the GKs were immune, then it wasn't needed. If they weren't immune, then perhaps the Sisters who were should be preserved, so that one day the Imperium can create good defenses, rather than the clearly inadequate ones they have now.

They may or may not have been immune. Some of the sisters seemed to have been. so some of the GK present may or may not have been. Preserving the sisters might have been useful..once they had stopped the tide. But to make sure they could stop the tide they needed a talisman of some power. So They used what they needed to use to gain that. Again agents of the inqusiton do thins like this all the time, it is kinda the MO for them. Use what you need now, if ya can collect samples for later, good if not. Eh oh well.

Your whole argument rests on the idea there was no need. Yet the GK in setting clearly felt they had a need. So honestly unless you can find a real reason( so far you have not in any form) other then you do not like it, your argument is built upon a false statement.


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Unit1126PLL wrote:


Because it flat-out says it does - they're incorruptible. That is not "almost incorruptible" or "Cannot be tainted by most things."

Of course, they can be hurt by physical warp manifestations, but bathing in blood hardly protects one from physical anything.

which does not mean what you are trying to say it does. They can not become tainted and"fall" , however they can be infected, mutated or otherwise physically harmed or altered by chaos. And you keep repeating that falsehood that they simply bathed in blood. It clearly states they used the blood to make a talisman. It was an ingredient, not a thing in and by itself.

Unit1126PLL wrote: From the statement that the Grey Knights are mortal and none have ever fallen. If you could mentally harm a Grey Knight, then that's a pretty huge chink in their defenses, since the warp is entirely concerned with one's mental well-being...

Because it flat-out says it does - they're incorruptible. That is not "almost incorruptible" or "Cannot be tainted by most things."

They are immune to the temptations of the warp. That is the corruption they are immune to. No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Of course, they can be hurt by physical warp manifestations, but bathing in blood hardly protects one from physical anything.

How do you know? Are you a sorceror in the 41st Millenium? It's something that makes the victim go insane. The magic stops that from happening. What part is confusing to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I question the bolded phrase. IF the GKs were immune, then it wasn't needed. If they weren't immune, then perhaps the Sisters who were should be preserved, so that one day the Imperium can create good defenses, rather than the clearly inadequate ones they have now.

They may or may not have been immune. Some of the sisters seemed to have been. so some of the GK present may or may not have been. Preserving the sisters might have been useful..once they had stopped the tide. But to make sure they could stop the tide they needed a talisman of some power. So They used what they needed to use to gain that. Again agents of the inqusiton do thins like this all the time, it is kinda the MO for them. Use what you need now, if ya can collect samples for later, good if not. Eh oh well.

Your whole argument rests on the idea there was no need. Yet the GK in setting clearly felt they had a need. So honestly unless you can find a real reason( so far you have not in any form) other then you do not like it, your argument is built upon a false statement.

No, my reason is that there is no indication that it was necessary except that the GK felt like it. I often feel like I need many things, that doesn't mean I just do them. Especially without any scientific or logical explanation.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

Because it flat-out says it does - they're incorruptible. That is not "almost incorruptible" or "Cannot be tainted by most things."

Of course, they can be hurt by physical warp manifestations, but bathing in blood hardly protects one from physical anything.

which does not mean what you are trying to say it does. They can not become tainted and"fall" , however they can be infected, mutated or otherwise physically harmed or altered by chaos. And you keep repeating that falsehood that they simply bathed in blood. It clearly states they used the blood to make a talisman. It was an ingredient, not a thing in and by itself.

But the implication of a "talisman" means it is something to protect you from magic. If the GKs are not immune to this magic, but some Sisters are, then just make a military body out of those Sisters (or their genes) and fire the Grey Knights. This is like a military using civilians as bullet-shields because the civilians have bullet-proof body armor. Just mass produce the body-armor, nitwits.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote: From the statement that the Grey Knights are mortal and none have ever fallen. If you could mentally harm a Grey Knight, then that's a pretty huge chink in their defenses, since the warp is entirely concerned with one's mental well-being...

Because it flat-out says it does - they're incorruptible. That is not "almost incorruptible" or "Cannot be tainted by most things."

They are immune to the temptations of the warp. That is the corruption they are immune to. No Grey Knight has ever fallen to Chaos.

Unit1126PLL wrote:Of course, they can be hurt by physical warp manifestations, but bathing in blood hardly protects one from physical anything.

How do you know? Are you a sorceror in the 41st Millenium? It's something that makes the victim go insane. The magic stops that from happening. What part is confusing to you?

I know because it makes physical and logical sense. I know 40k doesn't always do that, and I always, always wince and hate it when it doesn't.

Unit1126PLL wrote:I know because it makes physical and logical sense.

You're expecting magic from the warp to make physical and logical sense.



How about we just settle for internal consistency?

It's quite literally a case of 'a wizard did it'.

Further, with regard to the 'resistant' sisters, would you want to take the risk that they were carriers, and let them go off-world? What if they infected the people investigating them? It'd be like 28 Days Later on a galactic scale! I agree, it would have been cool for the Grey Knights to clap some survivors in irons and take them back to Titan for interrogation and disection to find out what made them resistant in the first place.

But I'm not going to decry the story as rubbish because they didn't want to do that.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:I know because it makes physical and logical sense.

You're expecting magic from the warp to make physical and logical sense.

No I want the humans in the setting to use their brains. Nothing I have said requires any element of the setting to change except the thoughts and actions of the people involved.

It isn't a good story if the characters all act like children.

Kaldor wrote:
How about we just settle for internal consistency?

It's quite literally a case of 'a wizard did it'.

Further, with regard to the 'resistant' sisters, would you want to take the risk that they were carriers, and let them go off-world? What if they infected the people investigating them? It'd be like 28 Days Later on a galactic scale! I agree, it would have been cool for the Grey Knights to clap some survivors in irons and take them back to Titan for interrogation and disection to find out what made them resistant in the first place.

But I'm not going to decry the story as rubbish because they didn't want to do that.

It's not necessarily so easily dismissed for me I suppose.

I don't like characters who don't use their brains. Especially characters who are supposedly so amazing as the Grey Knights. This is, to me, like a Superman story where he finds another Kryptonian who's resistant to Kryptonite because of the clothes he wears. But instead of just finding that out and wearing the clothes, Superman rips off his skin (clothes and all) and wears it around.

It is a really really bad break from how I would expect humans to behave in a situation, and when one can no longer empathize with a character because he's too stupid / insane / irrational is when a story goes from "Barely believable" to rubbish.

EDIT:
To put it another way, I feel like I empathize with the humans rather well in 40k, pulling out all stops to try to slow that eventual fall to Chaos. But sometimes in 40k I just facepalm, like with the orthodox Mechanicus law, or ESPECIALLY in cases like this, where there is a valuable weapon for use against chaos that has just become apparent.

Unfortunately, this valuable weapon was just slaughtered wholesale to deal with a threat to a single world. It's a facepalm moment for me.

A further question, if the blood was only an ingredient why would the killing of the sisters be necessary? You can get a good few pints of blood out of a person without killing them.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

No, my reason is that there is no indication that it was necessary except that the GK felt like it. I often feel like I need many things, that doesn't mean I just do them. Especially without any scientific or logical explanation.

A gray Knight who is well versed in the warp, mystical arts and protection of the warp and its creatures deemed it necessary. That is as scientific or logical as anything mystical dealing with the warp ever gets. someone in setting that has studies it, deems you need to do x. Kinda how magic works.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

But the implication of a "talisman" means it is something to protect you from magic. If the GKs are not immune to this magic, but some Sisters are, then just make a military body out of those Sisters (or their genes) and fire the Grey Knights. This is like a military using civilians as bullet-shields because the civilians have bullet-proof body armor. Just mass produce the body-armor, nitwits.

The Gray knights ar enot Immune to magic, the soB are not immune to magic. You had a small number of sisters, and it did seem rather small, who had resisted this one type of physical threat. Not all sisters, not much and maybe none ever again. It was a very, very few one one single world out of a whole temple full. It was more then likely non gentic, many warp resistance things in 40k can not be passed on to offspring.





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Hazardous Harry wrote:A further question, if the blood was only an ingredient why would the killing of the sisters be necessary? You can get a good few pints of blood out of a person without killing them.

All in how many Knights you needed or how much you needed. Then it may have required the "Last drop of blood from an Innocent". It just leaves it vague, all we know it it required their blood (More likely virgin blood honestly) and they died in the progress.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

No, my reason is that there is no indication that it was necessary except that the GK felt like it. I often feel like I need many things, that doesn't mean I just do them. Especially without any scientific or logical explanation.

A gray Knight who is well versed in the warp, mystical arts and protection of the warp and its creatures deemed it necessary. That is as scientific or logical as anything mystical dealing with the warp ever gets. someone in setting that has studies it, deems you need to do x. Kinda how magic works.

I'm sure they did know how to deal with it. Which is awesome and fluffy. The problem is how they went about applying that knowledge.

It'd be like if I knew how to do heart transplants. Awesome. Now I could just use a donated heart. But instead, because it's "easier," I'm going to rip them still beating from the nurses around me. You see nothing wrong with this?

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

But the implication of a "talisman" means it is something to protect you from magic. If the GKs are not immune to this magic, but some Sisters are, then just make a military body out of those Sisters (or their genes) and fire the Grey Knights. This is like a military using civilians as bullet-shields because the civilians have bullet-proof body armor. Just mass produce the body-armor, nitwits.

The Gray knights ar enot Immune to magic, the soB are not immune to magic. You had a small number of sisters, and it did seem rather small, who had resisted this one type of physical threat. Not all sisters, not much and maybe none ever again. It was a very, very few one one single world out of a whole temple full. It was more then likely non gentic, many warp resistance things in 40k can not be passed on to offspring.

It actually specifically says they were immune. And it may not have been genetic. It may have been chemicals, latent psychic potential, faith in the Emperor, etc. But they were -somehow- immune, and you can apply this knowledge elsewhere if you don't murder it for your own uses.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

I'm sure they did know how to deal with it. Which is awesome and fluffy. The problem is how they went about applying that knowledge.

It'd be like if I knew how to do heart transplants. Awesome. Now I could just use a donated heart. But instead, because it's "easier," I'm going to rip them still beating from the nurses around me. You see nothing wrong with this?

As they A: had limited time and B: Are agents of the inquisition and that seems to be standard practice and does not even register on the bad gak list.
Not a bit.

Unit1126PLL wrote:


It actually specifically says they were immune. And it may not have been genetic. It may have been chemicals, latent psychic potential, faith in the Emperor, etc. But they were -somehow- immune, and you can apply this knowledge elsewhere if you don't murder it for your own uses.

You now it never says they were immune. In fact it never states the sister are immune at all, anywhere I can find. What it says is "Needing a talisman for purity to protect against the bloodtides taint" It then says that "innocent" blood is then used.

And yes the Inquisition damned well does murder you for it, if there is a great need right now. If they need something now and useing it may forever lose it without being studies....to bad. They use it and never think twice. that is what they do.

Look, look those Sisters are purer than us

KILL THEM!!!!

Hazardous Harry wrote:A further question, if the blood was only an ingredient why would the killing of the sisters be necessary? You can get a good few pints of blood out of a person without killing them.

Maybe they needed the lifes blood. Or maybe they just considered the Sisters to be infected but not yet showing symptoms, and to be executed and unstrustworthy. Who knows.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:A further question, if the blood was only an ingredient why would the killing of the sisters be necessary? You can get a good few pints of blood out of a person without killing them.

Maybe they needed the lifes blood. Or maybe they just considered the Sisters to be infected but not yet showing symptoms, and to be executed and unstrustworthy. Who knows.

See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Pacific wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Yes, because BL authors don't usually feature Codex characters in their novels.

I love this. Someone mentions Bloodtide and BAM, six page thread.

My two cents? It's a dumb, poorly written, and slightly misogynistic piece of fluff that makes the Sisters look like lambs to a slaughter and the Grey Knights like raving psychos who can't be arsed to use their own protections and are clearly capable of being corrupted.

The hell with the difference between physical and mental corruption. The GK codex states that they are clearly above both, through mental conditioning and their swanky armor.

There was no indication of any sort or blood being required to turn away the corruption, nor is there anything indicating exactly what the Bloodtide does. All it says is that those who are corrupted roam the streets looking for innocents to slaughter on the tainted altar.

So what did the GK do? They slaughtered innocents, then decorated themselves in the innocent blood.

Oh, and "needing a talisman of purity?" Yeah, feth that. What happened to GK being pure? I thought they could never be corrupted, and we thus pure as the dickens. Hint: they can't, and are, so slaughtering the SoB was both pointless and immesurably stupid.

This story is the Ultima 9 of the GK codex.

Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Yes, because BL authors don't usually feature Codex characters in their novels.

Stop being deliberately obtuse Kan, you know what I meant by that comment

Pacific wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Pacific wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Pacific wrote:Now if something like this happens in Aaron Dembski-Bowden's forthcoming GK book, then there will be a topic worthy of discussion.

Ooh, tell me more!

ADB has written a book about the Grey Knights, called 'The Emperor's Gift' and out in June of this year officially.

I would bet my mortgage that it won't feature Dragio bestriding the warp to leave some graffiti on Mortarion, or 'bloodtides'

Yes, because BL authors don't usually feature Codex characters in their novels.

Stop being deliberately obtuse Kan, you know what I meant by that comment

Obtuse? Don't you get acute with me, fella!



But yeah. I don't understand the big hubbub about the GK codex. You all know me. I'm a fluffnut. I'm very vocal in what I dislike.
But for some reason...the GK codex is fine to me, things like Canis Wolfborn are relatively acceptable(if silly) but the whole constant stream of Blood Ravens=Thousand Sons OHEMGEE is just downright unlikeable to me.

Omegus wrote:
I'm sorry, I wasn't clear enough. Of course, Ward's GK would go Leeroy Jenkins. But the likelihood that Sisters were gaining an upper hand in battle against anything is frankly ludicrously small. Look at almost every other piece of Sisters fluff post-Vandire. All they do is die. They are worse than guardsmen.

On that note, I'm forced to agree with you. I sometimes wonder what would happen if the IG Stormtroopers were given the Sisters' bolters and power armor, instead of carapace armor and angry flashlights. Would that make them more badass than they already are? Would they be worth their points cost? Would the Sisters suddenly all die at the hands of some rabid cherubim and ornery servo-skulls?

Seriously, the writers at GW need to stop using the Sisters as the Imperium's cannon fodder. The fluff is starting to smell more than a tad misogynistic...

On a related note, I think calling the GK "Knights of Khorne" is going a tad far. I agree the whole Bloodtide thing is pants on head special, there is not nearly enough information given for it to make any kind of logical sense, and GKs being vulnerable to corruption directly contradicts every single page of the rest of the Codex.

That being said, I think it's far more reasonable to brand the GK as Radicals, rather than Khorne-worshipping cultists. They used a ritual of "questionable" origin to shield themselves from a warp effect they may or may not have needed shielding from in the first place. They killed their own allies to do it, who may, may , MAY have volunteered for it (it doesn't say one way or the other, but that's the PROBLEM with the entry... it leaves far, far too much out for it to make ANY kind of sense) and they use daemon and xeno tech all the time. These are some of the clearest signs of Radicalism in the Inquisition. Can we just split the difference and call the GKs "Radicals" instead of "Knights of Khorne"...?

I mean, it should satisfy everyone: as Radicals, they are insane and misguided, and cruising for a Denounciation (and Excommunication) but as Radicals, they are still (ostensibly) working FOR the Imperium. Besides, you can argue against Khorne worship, but you cannot argue against Radicalism (well, you can't argue succesfully, because all the evidence is against you). The Grey Knights are a Radical faction. Now all the GK haters can be happy, because Radicals always fall to Chaos, and the GK lovers can be happy because Radicals are the most successful at fighting Chaos, because they use all of Chaos' dirty tricks against it.

Hazardous Harry wrote:See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

I would argue that the piece has been left deliberately vague so that we can fill in the gaps with our own imaginations. You choose to imagine that there was no reason for it.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

I would argue that the piece has been left deliberately vague so that we can fill in the gaps with our own imaginations. You choose to imagine that there was no reason for it.

I would argue that you're wrong, and that's not how this works. This isn't a homebrew codex, you can't just make stuff up to make a poorly written and all around bad piece of fluff make sense. That's grasping for straws where there are none.

McNinja wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:See, this is your problem. A critical thinker doesn't just throw up their hands when confronted with a dodgy piece of writing and say "who knows?". Just because it's got the GW logo on it doesn't mean you can't criticise the obvious lack of thought put into it.

I would argue that the piece has been left deliberately vague so that we can fill in the gaps with our own imaginations. You choose to imagine that there was no reason for it.

I would argue that you're wrong, and that's not how this works. This isn't a homebrew codex, you can't just make stuff up to make a poorly written and all around bad piece of fluff make sense. That's grasping for straws where there are none.

I am gonna agree with Kaldor here. Codex seems vague, most 40k stuff seems vague in fact. Well vauge, poorly written take you pick.


You only have two options,
1: It was thought to be needed
2: It was not needed and they did it for kicks.

No other outcomes really exist. If you except that in setting the GK thought it or you can not. You can except it or make up reason why its wrong. I see alot of the anti-folks making up things and doing alot of speculation, yet slamming the pro guys for speculating why it was needed.

Some things are vague on purpose (see Trazyn the Infinite "giant man in baroque power armor" and Legion of the Damned) and somethings are vague because they aren't all that well written (see Kaldor Draigo and Bloodtide).

Sometimes, all that needs to be said is a single sentence, and that sentence makes people go "oh, wow, this is mysterious. I wonder whats really going on?". Kaldor Draigo defeating Mortarion and vandalizing his heart with a sword, along with the wholesale slaughter of an entire convent of SoB (well, the ones who didn't get corrputed, because as we all know SoB fall to Chaos faster than Guardsman on a Daemonworld) purely for some fake, unprecedented, and completely unneeded "talisman of purity" do not fit the bill.

McNinja wrote:Kaldor Draigo defeating Mortarion and vandalizing his heart with a sword, along with the wholesale slaughter of an entire convent of SoB (well, the ones who didn't get corrputed, because as we all know SoB fall to Chaos faster than Guardsman on a Daemonworld) purely for some fake, unprecedented, and completely unneeded "talisman of purity" do not fit the bill.

Those items are deliberately vague, and it was a good idea to make them vague. I love the idea of Mortarion being thrown down after a titanic struggle between his forces and Grey Knight strike force. And the Bloodtide makes perfect sense. I really don't understand how people can't think it makes sense.

Kaldor has got a point in pointing out the relationship between GW and the tactic of leaving things vague.

They love doing this.

everything from "What is the true nature of the Emperor? to "Are the Tau really insidious manipulators or really really naieve aliens?" etc. etc.

Leaving all the biq questions wide open allows everyone to have their cake and eat it too.

Bloodtide makes sense of you enjoy the thought of GK being maniacal tools who will willingly slaughter anyone and anything if they think it might possibly need to be dead. And don't like SoB.

Except Mortarion wasn't thrown down after a titanic struggle with a GK strike force, he and Draigo duelled, Draigo beat his arse and wrote on his heart. Because as we all know, Daemon Primarchs are pushovers, especially when inside the warp. I'm not saying it's impossible, since the GK are daemonhunters, but the fact it is given so little attention boggles the mind. I highly doubt Matt Ward, or whoever wrote that piece of fluff thought any further than "yeah, Draigo's a badass. He can totally kill a daemon primarch of Nurgle and start writing on its major organs like he's taking notes on how to be the next Grand Master." They didn't take into account that A) Mortarion is in fact stronger when inside the warp, B)Mortarion is a DP of Nurgle, who generally makes his worshipers far tougher than normal, and C) that Draigo was alone. Either that or they did, and figured that it would make Draigo look so hardcore that he was able to take down the toughest of all of the Daemon Primarchs by himself.

Then Bloodtide. Not only does it not make sense based on how incorruptible to rest of the codex claims they are, but their armor is specifically designed to ward off daemons and their spells/powers. A talisman of purity is 100% superfluous when you realize that their armor provides the same exact function without having to slaughter a convent of Sisters. Also:
-Exactly what the Bloodtide did was never fully explained (it is apparently entirely different from the other Bloodtide).
-Exactly what the corruption did was never fully explained outside of "made people get other people and sacrifice them on a tainted altar."
-Why the Gk needed a talisman of purity was never explained.
-How a prison containing KA'JAGGA'NATH, ONE OF KHORNE'S MOST POWERFUL BLOODTHIRSTERS was completely and entirely both forgotten and unguarded is not explained and this by itself makes zero sense.
-Why the Sister's blood was the talisman of purity was never explained.
-Pure blood is not longer pure when you mix it with things, the same way pure water is no longer pure when you put anything else in it. The GK basically killed the sisters, tainted their blood with their oils, then slathered themselves in said blood/oil combination, completely negating the "pure" aspect of it and killing a bunch of innocents in the process. But that doesn't matter, because the GK and Inqusition killed a couple billion innocent people because they might learn about daemons.

I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?

All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.

There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

McNinja wrote:Bloodtide makes sense of you enjoy the thought of GK being maniacal tools who will willingly slaughter anyone and anything if they think it might possibly need to be dead. And don't like SoB.

Except Mortarion wasn't thrown down after a titanic struggle with a GK strike force, he and Draigo duelled, Draigo beat his arse and wrote on his heart. Because as we all know, Daemon Primarchs are pushovers, especially when inside the warp. I'm not saying it's impossible, since the GK are daemonhunters, but the fact it is given so little attention boggles the mind. I highly doubt Matt Ward, or whoever wrote that piece of fluff thought any further than "yeah, Draigo's a badass. He can totally kill a daemon primarch of Nurgle and start writing on its major organs like he's taking notes on how to be the next Grand Master." They didn't take into account that A) Mortarion is in fact stronger when inside the warp, B)Mortarion is a DP of Nurgle, who generally makes his worshipers far tougher than normal, and C) that Draigo was alone. Either that or they did, and figured that it would make Draigo look so hardcore that he was able to take down the toughest of all of the Daemon Primarchs by himself.

Then Bloodtide. Not only does it not make sense based on how incorruptible to rest of the codex claims they are, but their armor is specifically designed to ward off daemons and their spells/powers. A talisman of purity is 100% superfluous when you realize that their armor provides the same exact function without having to slaughter a convent of Sisters. Also:
-Exactly what the Bloodtide did was never fully explained (it is apparently entirely different from the other Bloodtide).
-Exactly what the corruption did was never fully explained outside of "made people get other people and sacrifice them on a tainted altar."
-Why the Gk needed a talisman of purity was never explained.
-How a prison containing KA'JAGGA'NATH, ONE OF KHORNE'S MOST POWERFUL BLOODTHIRSTERS was completely and entirely both forgotten and unguarded is not explained and this by itself makes zero sense.
-Why the Sister's blood was the talisman of purity was never explained.
-Pure blood is not longer pure when you mix it with things, the same way pure water is no longer pure when you put anything else in it. The GK basically killed the sisters, tainted their blood with their oils, then slathered themselves in said blood/oil combination, completely negating the "pure" aspect of it and killing a bunch of innocents in the process. But that doesn't matter, because the GK and Inqusition killed a couple billion innocent people because they might learn about daemons.

This is the same problem I see with almost all the Ward hate. A chronic lack of imagination coupled with bizarre assumptions. I'm going to leave Draigo aside at the moment, but let me just say you're wrong on a whole bunch of stuff. Start another thread if you want.

Regards to the Bloodtide:

Grey Knights are incorruptible. You assume this means they cannot be affected by any Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

Their Aegis and Hexagrammic wards offer a measure of protection. You assume that this provides adequate protection against all Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

I mean we know the Grey Knights are beyond corruption, but do they themselves know it? I started a conversation in another thread about how the Imperium of Man has limited knowledge of their own tech. So while it is quite possible that they are immune to all chaos taint, both physical, mental, and spiritual, it is likely they have no idea how or why it works. Super soldier, demon ass kickers doesn't mean they have a high IQ. End of the day they are just grunts with some fancy power armor and mental toughness training.
Also I heard the SoB refused to go out with them so that is also why they killed them.

Dannyevilguy wrote:I mean we know the Grey Knights are beyond corruption, but do they themselves know it?

It wouldn't matter. Immune to the temptations of Chaos doesn't mean they can't be affected by Chaos powers.

Dannyevilguy wrote:I mean we know the Grey Knights are beyond corruption, but do they themselves know it? I started a conversation in another thread about how the Imperium of Man has limited knowledge of their own tech. So while it is quite possible that they are immune to all chaos taint, both physical, mental, and spiritual, it is likely they have no idea how or why it works. Super soldier, demon ass kickers doesn't mean they have a high IQ. End of the day they are just grunts with some fancy power armor and mental toughness training.
Also I heard the SoB refused to go out with them so that is also why they killed them.

You heard wrong.

The passage in question is only a paragraph and it basically says "Bloodtide emerged on Planet, entire population slain or driven mad, some SoB were not destroyed or driven mad, GKs showed up, GKs needed a talisman of protection, they put the surviving sisters to the sword and used their blood to make a protective talisman, Bloodtide destroyed"

There is no specific information as to the events of that day. We arn't even told the names of those involved.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?

All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.

There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

Perhaps maniacal may not have been the correct word. They killed them without hesitation for no reason other than some vague talisman.

Kaldor wrote:

McNinja wrote:Bloodtide makes sense of you enjoy the thought of GK being maniacal tools who will willingly slaughter anyone and anything if they think it might possibly need to be dead. And don't like SoB.

Except Mortarion wasn't thrown down after a titanic struggle with a GK strike force, he and Draigo duelled, Draigo beat his arse and wrote on his heart. Because as we all know, Daemon Primarchs are pushovers, especially when inside the warp. I'm not saying it's impossible, since the GK are daemonhunters, but the fact it is given so little attention boggles the mind. I highly doubt Matt Ward, or whoever wrote that piece of fluff thought any further than "yeah, Draigo's a badass. He can totally kill a daemon primarch of Nurgle and start writing on its major organs like he's taking notes on how to be the next Grand Master." They didn't take into account that A) Mortarion is in fact stronger when inside the warp, B)Mortarion is a DP of Nurgle, who generally makes his worshipers far tougher than normal, and C) that Draigo was alone. Either that or they did, and figured that it would make Draigo look so hardcore that he was able to take down the toughest of all of the Daemon Primarchs by himself.

Then Bloodtide. Not only does it not make sense based on how incorruptible to rest of the codex claims they are, but their armor is specifically designed to ward off daemons and their spells/powers. A talisman of purity is 100% superfluous when you realize that their armor provides the same exact function without having to slaughter a convent of Sisters. Also:
-Exactly what the Bloodtide did was never fully explained (it is apparently entirely different from the other Bloodtide).
-Exactly what the corruption did was never fully explained outside of "made people get other people and sacrifice them on a tainted altar."
-Why the Gk needed a talisman of purity was never explained.
-How a prison containing KA'JAGGA'NATH, ONE OF KHORNE'S MOST POWERFUL BLOODTHIRSTERS was completely and entirely both forgotten and unguarded is not explained and this by itself makes zero sense.
-Why the Sister's blood was the talisman of purity was never explained.
-Pure blood is not longer pure when you mix it with things, the same way pure water is no longer pure when you put anything else in it. The GK basically killed the sisters, tainted their blood with their oils, then slathered themselves in said blood/oil combination, completely negating the "pure" aspect of it and killing a bunch of innocents in the process. But that doesn't matter, because the GK and Inqusition killed a couple billion innocent people because they might learn about daemons.

This is the same problem I see with almost all the Ward hate. A chronic lack of imagination coupled with bizarre assumptions. I'm going to leave Draigo aside at the moment, but let me just say you're wrong on a whole bunch of stuff. Start another thread if you want.

Regards to the Bloodtide:

Grey Knights are incorruptible. You assume this means they cannot be affected by any Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

Their Aegis and Hexagrammic wards offer a measure of protection. You assume that this provides adequate protection against all Chaos powers, and this is incorrect.

Really? Because the codex says that the Aegis bound with the greatest mystical and psychic defenses known to the Imperium of Man.

Incorruptible is an absolute word. There's no measure of incorruptiblilty, you're either incorruptible or you aren't. Where have other GK been affected by physical powers?

Bizzare assumptions how? And I don't like filling plotholes with bullsnits, I like things that make sense. The gravity of both Draigo defeating Mortarion in single combat and the Bloodtide Returns incident require far more information than what is given. I can imagine a glorious battle between Draigo and Mortarion, with Mortarion killing the former CM of the GK and Draigo losing his fudge and hacking away at Mortarion with the fury of a hundred men.

I can also imagine the Ka'jagga'nath, second, if not equal to Doombreed in power, being released form his prison, and as his corporeal form explodes out from the chamber, a tidal wave of blood and gore washes through the building, submersing those within the building in daemon blood of the most pure kind. Those who are even touched by the boiling, daemonic fluid are instantly warped beyond recognition, becoming unto Bloodletters in an instant and having the unending thirst for blood and death. They blast out into the streets, pouring over each other as the tide of gore continues to flood out of the building thorugh the windows and doors onto the street, bystanders looking confused, then frightful, then screaming with abject terror as they are slaughtered where they stand, transformed into hideous monsters, or dragged into the building to be sacrificed for Khorne. The Sisters of Battle ride into battle, but it is too little too late. Many have been tainted by the power of Ka'jagga'nath, and the Sisters of Battle can do no more than stave off the daemons. They are fighting a losing battle, and they know it. As the battle wears on, the ranks of the Sisters grow thin, and although their faith is without equal, the supreme evil that is Ka'jagga'nath has twisted the surroundings to such a degree that they are no longer sure they can obtain reinforcements. As they pray to the emperor one final time, the Grey Knights teleport in, seemingly in answer to the prayers of the Sisters. The Grey Knights instantly recognize Ka'jagga'nath, and as they progress further and further into the horde of the purest bloodlust, they realize that even their most blessed armor may not be enough to wholly prevent their physical corruption. The Grey Knights make a tactical relocation to forward base established by the Sisters of Battle.

Again and again, the Sisters and the Grey Knights fight against the Bloodtide, each time testing new blessings and new sacred oils against the abominations, with no avail. The Grey Knights begin to take losses, and they are forced again to retreat. This time, however, they notice something different; every drop of spilled Sister blood boils and aersolizes as it contacts daemons or the bloodtide, causing an intense and adverse reaction by any daemons who are in contact with it, as if the acid of the cruelest Dark Eldar Haemonculus was being inhaled. The Grey Knights soon realize that this is the key to defeating the Bloodtide. As they approach the few remaining Sisters of Battle, they tell the Sisters of their discovery. The Sisters go willingly, and with a mighty salute of "For the Emperor!" they allow the Grey Knights to spill their blood so that the world of Van Horne may survive. The Grey Knights coat themselves in the pure blood of the Sisters of Battle over top their already outrageous amounts of holy and blessed oils. The resulting combination works exactly as the Grey Knights expected it to, allowing them to carve a path of holy destruction through the daemonic ranks straight to Ka'jagganath, still sitting atop his throne of blood carved out of the broken statue of the Emperor. Ordan, the Champion of the fourth brotherhood, and three of the most powerful Librarians of the Fourth Brotherhood, lead the charge into the Basilica, sweeping aside his floundering minions with ease as they baulk upon contacting the blood of the mighty and pure Sisters of Battle, giving the Grey Knights ample time to cut them down. Ka'jagga'nath lazily stands up, and bellows such a roar that a lesser man would have been flayed alive. Ordan bellows out his own challenge to the behemoth and charges, plunging his blood coated halberd straight through Ka'jagga'nath. Ka'jagga'nath grabs Ordan, lifts him up, and tears out the halberd. As Ordan is torn in two by the Bloodthirster, the Grey Knights, who now surrounded Ka'jagga'nath, opened fire with every weapon they had, obliterating the physical form of the daemon, and as they do so, they banish Ka'jagga'nath back into the warp, the psychic backlash annihilating both the tainted humans and the daemons and sucking in the bloodtide completely, leaving a shattered Bascilica and ruined Van Horne in it wake.

The Grey Knights returned to Titan, adding those Sisters of Battle who gave up their blood and the the fallen Grey Knights to the Halls of Remeberance and a statue of Ordan to the Hall of Champions.

Later, Inquisitors from the Ordo Malleus are dispatched to several other worlds to check on the status of several nearly-forgotten prisons.

Thats how I imagine it happened, or something along those lines.

Just because Mat didn't have the forsight to see the potential problems with his writing that passage doesn't mean it isn't garbage.

Come up with a fluffy explaination instead of hating on Mat(who may not have even written that part, codices are a collaborative effort)

The problem is, when some dude on DakkaDakka can write a better, more believable story, then something's wrong.

thats about par for GW, nothing to do with Ward or the GK codex.

I think people just got annoyed that GKs got changed slightly and/or that they became fairly competitive. Gk armies are not dominating the tournament scene as much as all the hype would have you believe.They are performing only about average considering the large numbers of players.

@Unit: Thanks

@Grey:I agree. I think the hype has died down a bit, but I actually really like the rules. There's a lot of unique wargear, the characters have some pretty interesting special rules and a few can mess with FOC charts, etc. The only thing I think is subpar is the fluff. Fluff that Ward, as far as we know, may or may not have written. I wouldn't be surprised if Ward just had oversight and wrote most of the rules. Though that means he Ok'd the fluff, which still isn't ok.

Unit1126PLL wrote:The problem is, when some dude on DakkaDakka can write a better, more believable story, then something's wrong.

He can't. The entire point of the Bloodtide story was, like Draigo and Mortarion, to be a short narrative-empty snippet to give our imaginations something to chew on. It deliberately gives us only the bare bones of the story so we can flesh out the rest however we like, and have debates about it. McNinja's story doesn't let us do that, doesn't make sense (Sororitas blood is acid to daemons? WTF?) and doesn't even address all the issues commonly complained about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now, if you don't like using your imagination, thats fine. You're probably the type of reader that really likes 'mirror scenes' in novels, where the main character looks into a mirror and studies his features intently in order to give the author a chance to destroy any chance we had of imagining the character ourselves.

But that doesn't mean it's bad. It's only bad when the events make no sense, are not internally consistent or the characters act out-of-character with no explanation. None of which happens in the bloodtide!

I still disagree. Why would they do that? Why does that make sense? That's like someone writing a novel leaving out bits and pieces and saying "yeah, I wanted my fans to fill in the blanks with their imaginations." This isn't a game of mad-lib, its is fluff in a book. Someone has already written it. If you're arguing that it makes sense, tell us what you're thinking, please don't just keep saying "it's supposed to be vague" then leaving out why it isn't vague to you, because it's vague as to me, and I don't like that.

Oh, and SoB blood is clearly something to daemons, because it was the talisman of purity the GK so desperately needed.

EDIT: Just saw your Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do. Granted, I used to use it a lot more, but that doesn't change much. Also, no I don't like mirror scenes for the exact reasons you've described, the same way I don't like when comic characters (like, say, garfield) are given voices that don't match the unique voice I created for them. Let's just say the Bill Murray was not my voice for Garfield.

Bloodtide is not internally consistent. Or rather, the GK codex is not. One of the two. Either way, I still don't know why the incorruptible and best-defense-against-mystical-and-psychic-attacks-in-the-IoM GK needed a talisman of purity, I still don't know what transpired between the GK and the Sisters before they were put to the sword, and I still don't know why the prison of the second most powerful bloodthirster ever was left unguarded and in a place where it could be broken open by a slight industrial accident. If you're going to write a story, write a story. If you're not, then don't. It confuses and pisses people off.

Exactly. The problem isn't a lack of imagination.

Rather, it's a lack of willing-to-gloss-over-nonsense.

I can fill in blanks, but trying to understand people who don't act at all like one would expect, or trying to fill in the blanks of a world that's not even internally consistent, has nothing to do with imagination.

McNinja wrote:I still disagree. Why would they do that? Why does that make sense? That's like someone writing a novel leaving out bits and pieces and saying "yeah, I wanted my fans to fill in the blanks with their imaginations."

A good author knows when to do exactly that! If you spend too much time describing things for people you start to bore the reader. I know I start to skip over whole sections of books banging on about how grimy and cluttered a city is, or long drawn out blow-by-blow accounts of battles. Inside I'm thinking "yeah yeah, I get it, now get to the point already!"

it's vague as to me, and I don't like that.

You seem upset because you don't think the Bloodtide should affect the GK, or if it does affect them then it should be countered by the Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards. The reason this assumption is wrong is because the Aegis and the Hexagrammic wards are very specific. They defend the Grey Knights against direct targetting by enemy psykers, and perhaps some spells. Maybe from some kinds of daemonic posession.

But it doesn't protect them against anything else. It won't protect them from fire conjured by Tzeench, or Plagues conjured by Nurgle, or weapons wielded by Bloodletters, or what-have-you. It also obviously doesn't protect against the Bloodtide. The bloodtide doesn't have to be a psychic attack, it could be more like plastic getting too close to molten steel: It just melts it. Or it could be like a noise that blasts directly into the brain. It's a warp-spawned power of destruction, it could work like ANYTHING or do ANYTHING. We just don't know, and it would be a mistake on the part of an author to try too hard to explain it.

Oh, and SoB blood is clearly something to daemons, because it was the talisman of purity the GK so desperately needed.

No, it doesn't do squat to anything. It's like ground unicorn horns, or mermaids tears or some stuff. It's an ingredient, a part of a ward, and only the whole will do anything. I like cake, and eggs are an ingredient of cake, but that doesn't mean I like eggs. Similarly, the ward of purity protects from the Bloodtide. The Sororitas blood is an ingredient of that ward, but that doesn't mean the Sororitas blood will protect from the Bloodtide.

Grey Templar wrote:I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?
All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.
There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

You mean there is a chance it was a benevolent mass murder of innocents?

Damn McNinja, fine alteration of the fluff there!

Kroothawk wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I'm sorry, where does it say the GKs were laughing maniacally while brutally slaughtering the sisters to bathe in their blood?
All it says is that they killed them and used their blood as an ingrediant in an anti-bloodtide lotion.
There is 0 evidence of malice or cruel intent.

You mean there is a chance it was a benevolent mass murder of innocents?

Well it never says murdered. It says put to the sword. The way I read it is they needed virgin blood and the cannon fodder space Nuns provided it. The SoB would have most likely given their lives freely, they had being doing that already and loosing pretty damned badly. So why not die in a ritual for the emperor to insure success? Not all that uncommon a thing in 40k at all.

McNinja wrote:
Bloodtide is not internally consistent. Or rather, the GK codex is not. One of the two. Either way, I still don't know why the incorruptible and best-defense-against-mystical-and-psychic-attacks-in-the-IoM GK needed a talisman of purity....

Really, I'm puzzled why people read "incorruptible" that GK have some sort of MythiPower(tm) which makes them immune to all things chaotic. They are incorruptible because they are willing to go any lengths to avoid being corrupted. Such as, I don't know, maybe killing some innocents to get their blood for a spell which will protect them from Chaos. That sounds exactly what Imperium would do, exactly what a fanatic daemon hunter would do...exactly what I envision Grey Knights could do.

I mean, if they actually had some sort of "Mythi-Power" giving them 100% protection from Chaos, as some people suggest they have, that would be seriously lame, crappy storytelling, and make them awfully boring. It also begs the question, if they do have that kind of immunity, why they are vulnerable to Chaos powers and spells? I mean, you can make a Chaos Spawn out of a Grey Knight.

I guess some people are upset that the new codex reveals that Grey Knights are NOT force of angelic good, happiness and unicorns.

Now, I do think that GK codex is pretty poorly written, but Bloodtide is actually one of the better passages.

Backfire wrote:Really, I'm puzzled why people read "incorruptible" that GK have some sort of MythiPower(tm) which makes them immune to all things chaotic

Indeed. Corrupted has many meanings. An iron girder can be corrupted. A politician can be corrupted. Just last week I had some files on a USB stick that were corrupted.

Chaos doesn't force people to serve it. It offers things they want: Martial power, political power, sensory gratification, and whatever the hell it is that Nurgle offers people. It offers them untold power, and in return asks that you do its bidding. That is corruption. That is the taint of Chaos.

That is what Grey Knights have never succumbed to. The vile whispers of Chaos fall on deaf ears.

They aren't immune to psychic powers or chaos powers or anything of the sort, and although the Aegis and Hexagrammic wards certainly help in that regard they are by no means a cure-all stop-all impenetrable defense.

Is there any fluff where Grey Knights have been corrupted and turned their blades against their allies without warning?

Hazardous Harry wrote:Is there any fluff where Grey Knights have been corrupted and turned their blades against their allies without warning?

Not published, although some folks like to twist some things written into such, but nothing has been published with them doing so.

Then there is absolutely no evidence to support Kaldor's definition of 'incorruptible'.

EDIT: And in fact points to the entirely opposite conclusion.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Then there is absolutely no evidence to support Kaldor's definition of 'incorruptible'.

EDIT: And in fact points to the entirely opposite conclusion.

Except ya know..the definition. And how corruption works in 40k. Some one can be "incorruptible" but not immune to the warp. it simply means they can not be tempted to the darkside, so to speak. Their bodies are still as valuable as anyone else to the taint of Chaos. They can be twisted, harmed, mutated and down right killed by its touch. What they can not be is turned or seduced by it. which is why they use wards and such.

So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people into bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

And there's still no evidence of Grey Knights ever being physically corrupted by the warp in any case either, even if that was what the Bloodtide was supposed to do (it wasn't).

Hazardous Harry wrote:So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people in the bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

Have you read the Grey Knights book?

There are apparently two things at work in this situtation.
The Bloodtide and something going on within it, called a "goreflood". Without real, in-depth detail it's relatively safe to say that there is both a physical and spiritual component to this causing the madness or death of those exposed.

Hazardous Harry wrote:And there's still no evidence of Grey Knights ever being physically corrupted by the warp in any case either, even if that was what the Bloodtide was supposed to do (it wasn't).

You mean other than things like the Vraks books, where a Grey Knight is struck down by a Great Unclean One with pestilence?

"Corruption" is not what you think it is. Being vulnerable to the powers of the Warp does not mean that you are vulnerable to the temptations of its denizens.

Kanluwen wrote:

"Corruption" is not what you think it is

That word. I do not think it means what you think it means

sorry could not resist.

Backfire wrote:

McNinja wrote:
Bloodtide is not internally consistent. Or rather, the GK codex is not. One of the two. Either way, I still don't know why the incorruptible and best-defense-against-mystical-and-psychic-attacks-in-the-IoM GK needed a talisman of purity....

Really, I'm puzzled why people read "incorruptible" that GK have some sort of MythiPower(tm) which makes them immune to all things chaotic. They are incorruptible because they are willing to go any lengths to avoid being corrupted. Such as, I don't know, maybe killing some innocents to get their blood for a spell which will protect them from Chaos. That sounds exactly what Imperium would do, exactly what a fanatic daemon hunter would do...exactly what I envision Grey Knights could do.

I mean, if they actually had some sort of "Mythi-Power" giving them 100% protection from Chaos, as some people suggest they have, that would be seriously lame, crappy storytelling, and make them awfully boring. It also begs the question, if they do have that kind of immunity, why they are vulnerable to Chaos powers and spells? I mean, you can make a Chaos Spawn out of a Grey Knight.

I guess some people are upset that the new codex reveals that Grey Knights are NOT force of angelic good, happiness and unicorns.

Now, I do think that GK codex is pretty poorly written, but Bloodtide is actually one of the better passages.

because the GK codex makes zero distinction otherwise. I see what you're saying, but the GK codex does not make the effort to differentiate as you and Kaldor do between physical and mental corruption.

Actually it does. Or they would not need wards.

The sisters of battle where immune to it because they where female, grey knights are all male the disease was resisted due to sisters being bit more then the average human + female. The grey knights lacked female DNA in their blood so used the sisters.

There that could be a valid reason why even though the grey knights cant be corrupted and have a super immune system that they still needed blood from the sisters. (First paragraph made up but people been asking for a reason why grey knights might need extra immunity)

Bassline wrote:The sisters of battle where immune to it because they where female, grey knights are all male the disease was resisted due to sisters being bit more then the average human + female. The grey knights lacked female DNA in their blood so used the sisters.

There that could be a valid reason why even though the grey knights cant be corrupted and have a super immune system that they still needed blood from the sisters. (First paragraph made up but people been asking for a reason why grey knights might need extra immunity)

So the DNA of the sisters suddenly transfers to them?

Sigh Magic talisman guys. Magic freaking talisman. its says right there in black in white. Also you know this thread has made me go back over and look at that small paragraph. It never once says the sisters were immune or even resistant. all it says is the Gray knights needed innocent blood.

Bassline wrote:The sisters of battle where immune to it because they where female, grey knights are all male the disease was resisted due to sisters being bit more then the average human + female. The grey knights lacked female DNA in their blood so used the sisters.

There that could be a valid reason why even though the grey knights cant be corrupted and have a super immune system that they still needed blood from the sisters. (First paragraph made up but people been asking for a reason why grey knights might need extra immunity)

really? I didn't see that in the bloodtide entry. Also, that doesn't make sense.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Actually it does. Or they would not need wards.

actually, no, it doesn't, and they need wards because that's what helps protect them. They should not need additional wards simply because some writer thinks they should. All it says is that they need a talisman of purity for some arbitrary protection that somehow the gk know will protect them.

That "some writer" was the one who said they had the wards you say cover everything. He seems to disagree with you. Also page 7 specifies thatits the Gray knights psychic that is uncorrectable. It says nothing about the body only his mind. If you can find where it says they can not be ever touched physically by the warp I would like to see the page number and such. I want to read it.

Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

Durza wrote:Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

An archaic term for Virgin was an 'innocent" They are "Pure" and "Innocent" as long as they are. The SoB are chaste nuns if I recall. And I think that is what the rite called for, which is why the sisters were used. The story never says the soB were immune or resistant. Only that a few remained as must had been corrupted by the tide.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Durza wrote:Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

An archaic term for Virgin was an 'innocent" They are "Pure" and "Innocent" as long as they are. The SoB are chaste nuns if I recall. And I think that is what the rite called for, which is why the sisters were used. The story never says the soB were immune or resistant. Only that a few remained as must had been corrupted by the tide.

As long as I've heard it mentioned I have never seen anything stating that they are chaste. That said, I haven't read all the fluff in the 40K universe so I could be missing something.

Pretty sure they are also known as "The brides of the emperor " and Mimic catholic Nuns in many ways. I have not read upon on them much but I was under that impression, maybe because they call their fortress/training center/ homes "convents" and live a Nun like exsistance, where they do not deal with outsiders and spends days training or in prayer. I guess for the majority of them a official requirement is kinda a moot point.

The sob are basically nuns with guns. Anyway, page 7 does specify mind not body. Oopsie doopsies. Still, I like how the GK found the bloodtide, knew instantly that they needed a talisman of purity (because as we all know GK aren't pure), and knew in an instant that the blood of the SoB was absolutely pure and would work great.

And yes, I'm still going to harp on the fact that the prison of one of the most powerful daemons in existence was left out in the open and forgotten about. You can imagine away all of the other problems with the story, but the magnitude of the feth up on the part of the jailors to maintain watch over such a powerful enemy is astounding. It's like they're cerberus from the mass effect series.

SoB fluff is vague about the state of their virginity and pureness, but as they are based on Catholic Nuns I think they would definitly be chaste.


Anyway, until GW publishes a detailed description of the various ingrediants that go into making the GK's sacred oils and potions we won't know what the Blood actually does. All we do know is that it was required and the GKs took what they needed. I imagine time was of the essence and the Sisters were at hand for collection.

The fluff for the Sisters states that they "cleave only unto the Emperor" which, yes, is a vow of chastity. What they do before taking the Oath of Suffrage, though, is anyone's guess.

McNinja wrote:because the GK codex makes zero distinction otherwise. I see what you're saying, but the GK codex does not make the effort to differentiate as you and Kaldor do between physical and mental corruption.

So why aren't GK 100% immune to all Chaos powers and sorceries which target them? They have never been that, game-wise, even in pre-Ward codex?

I mean, is that sloppy rules design then or what?

Psienesis wrote:The fluff for the Sisters states that they "cleave only unto the Emperor" which, yes, is a vow of chastity. What they do before taking the Oath of Suffrage, though, is anyone's guess.

Quote, please

Not disbelief, I just want to read it

McNinja wrote:The sob are basically nuns with guns. Anyway, page 7 does specify mind not body. Oopsie doopsies. Still, I like how the GK found the bloodtide, knew instantly that they needed a talisman of purity (because as we all know GK aren't pure), and knew in an instant that the blood of the SoB was absolutely pure and would work great.

Does not say it was instantly. someone called them, the Inquisition sent them. They also have vast library of arcane lore and are very knowledgeable about way and rites to ward off and weaken the warp. It is a good bet that that rite was written down somewhere or something very much like it.


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I knew I seen it somewhere. Its from a FFG RPG book, but page 41 of the inquisitors handbook does in fact state they are chaste. I believe blood of maryters also covers them but I do not have that book myself. The exsact quotes are

"Adepta Sororitas are courageous, pious, self-sacrificing, chaste and faithful. They are fanatics, bound by harsh and restrictive religious oaths and ingrained zealotry. " and "The power of the purity, will and faith of an Adepta Sororitas
sister is a tangible and real thing, capable of shielding her from the psyker’s power or the Daemon’s wrath and enabling her to perform deeds that are nothing short of miraculous."

It also should be noted that DH SoB are a bit more badass then what we are left with in GW fiction. More Job or Arc and less canon fodder.

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well it never says murdered. It says put to the sword. The way I read it is they needed virgin blood and the cannon fodder space Nuns provided it.

The text says, their first act was to turn their swords upon the surviving Sororitas.
Try to kill someone in real life and then tell the judge it wasn't murder because:
1.) they might have given their life freely if asked.
2.) their life is worthless anyway (cannon fodder)
3.) the voices told you that it was necessary.
Good luck with that

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people.

Kroothawk wrote:

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people.

Welcome to 40k, the IoM and the holy Inquisition. It is pretty much par for the coarse for all three. There is evil, Evil, evil, Evil and EVIL ya make a choice and live with one of em.

I think your problem Kroothawk is foisting our 21st century morals onto a 41st millenium situation.

Life is cheap, the Inquisition wields the power and authority of the God Emperor, and the threat from the Alien and Daemon is incredibly great.



Is what they did bad in the 21st century? Yeah,

Is what they did bad in the 41st millenium? Nobody cares, here's a lasgun, the enemy is in that direction.

Pretty much, the Inquisition does much, much worse then that on a Tuesday.

My personal view on the subject is that the Bloodtide sounds much more like Tzenetch than Khorne, I mean it basically gives you 2 choices:

1) You do nothing so.............CHAOS WINZ

2)You defeat it killing innocents.........CHAOS WINZ

It's a Win-WIn situation as I see it


CHAOS IS BEGIN TO GROW

Always seemed to me the halberd wielding GK were slannesh followers

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people here.

In a universe where that act is used to prevent a world from literally becoming Hell made manifest, it suddenly becomes a case of "sacrifice the few to save the many".

Kanluwen wrote:Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people here.

In a universe where that act is used to prevent a world from literally becoming Hell made manifest, it suddenly becomes a case of "sacrifice the few to save the many".

I doubt the GK put that much thought into it. Honestly, after reading it the first time, I always pictured the gk landing, assessing the situation, then they all realize that the sisters blood is exactly what they need, so they instantly and without warning start killing the Sisters.

The GK don't care is an entire world is killed, as long as Chaos doesn't win. They aren't Spock, they only bigger picture they see is "Chaos not winning." You do realize that any of the non tainted populace who witnessed either the GK or daemons were killed, right? The GK have a habit of killing the inhabitants of the worlds they save.

McNinja wrote:And yes, I'm still going to harp on the fact that the prison of one of the most powerful daemons in existence was left out in the open and forgotten about. You can imagine away all of the other problems with the story, but the magnitude of the feth up on the part of the jailors to maintain watch over such a powerful enemy is astounding. It's like they're cerberus from the mass effect series.

Ten thousand years is a long time. Theres plenty of things that could have happened in such a large and monolithic organisation as the Imperium of Man. This is an organisation where entire worlds are lost due to rounding errors after all.

Kanluwen wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people in the bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

Have you read the Grey Knights book?

There are apparently two things at work in this situtation.
The Bloodtide and something going on within it, called a "goreflood". Without real, in-depth detail it's relatively safe to say that there is both a physical and spiritual component to this causing the madness or death of those exposed.

I'm confused now, people on the Grey Knights side have both confirmed and denied that the Bloodtide in the codex is the same as the novel.

Hazardous Harry wrote:And there's still no evidence of Grey Knights ever being physically corrupted by the warp in any case either, even if that was what the Bloodtide was supposed to do (it wasn't).

You mean other than things like the Vraks books, where a Grey Knight is struck down by a Great Unclean One with pestilence?

"Corruption" is not what you think it is. Being vulnerable to the powers of the Warp does not mean that you are vulnerable to the temptations of its denizens.

But there is still no case of a Grey Knight ever being so "corrupted" by the powers of the warp that they have turned their blades against their own. It hasn't happened, because if it ever had that would be a really big deal.
Premise (1): No Grey Knight has ever been so malformed or corrupted that they have started killing their brethren, even as a mindless slave.
Premise (2): The Bloodtide turned people into mad killers that turned on their fellows, due to the corrupting (either way you want to interpret that) powers of the warp.

If Premise 2 is correct, Premise 1 leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Grey Knights were at real risk from the Bloodtide.

Hazardous Harry wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote:So there is nothing to suggest that they would have been susceptible to the Bloodtide, where the risk was actually turning sane people in the bloodthirsty murderers, rather than than mutation, deformation or death.

Have you read the Grey Knights book?

There are apparently two things at work in this situtation.
The Bloodtide and something going on within it, called a "goreflood". Without real, in-depth detail it's relatively safe to say that there is both a physical and spiritual component to this causing the madness or death of those exposed.

I'm confused now, people on the Grey Knights side have both confirmed and denied that the Bloodtide in the codex is the same as the novel.

There is no confirmation at hand for it.

The Bloodtide, as described in the Grey Knights book, has some kind of secondary effect called a "goreflood".

In either case, my second point is applicable.

Hazardous Harry wrote: But there is still no case of a Grey Knight ever being so "corrupted" by the powers of the warp that they have turned their blades against their own. It hasn't happened, because if it ever had that would be a really big deal.

I'm pretty sure there are cases of Grey Knights being spawned and attacking their brothers, but I can't remember any off the top of my head. If a muscle can be warped, then so can a brain.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Premise (1): No Grey Knight has ever been so malformed or corrupted that they have started killing their brethren, even as a mindless slave.
Premise (2): The Bloodtide turned people into mad killers that turned on their fellows, due to the corrupting (either way you want to interpret that) powers of the warp.

If Premise 2 is correct, Premise 1 leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Grey Knights were at real risk from the Bloodtide.

Your position here is so full of holes it's mind boggling. Just as an example:

Your head has never exploded.

Shooting someone in the head makes their head explode.

Therefore, there is no evidence that you are at any risk if you are shot in the head.

Now, you could say that there is evidence that other heads will explode when shot, so it's fair to assume yours will too. But at the same time there are other servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the bloodtide, so it's ALSO fair to say that the Grey Knights will too.

You could also say that the Aegis and Hexagrammic wards will protect them, but who says they will? Maybe they only react to conscious attempts to attack the Grey Knights, in the same way that Void Shields will protect against a lance battery but not against a torpedoe barrage. Maybe the Bloodtide was not something taken into consideration when creating the Aegis and Hexagrammic wards and was thus not protected against, or maybe including protection against it would have required limiting the protection against something else. It doesn't matter. What matters is that the bloodtide could affect them.

Except that the Bloodtide entry really only states the transformation from normal person into person-who-wants-to-sacrifice-other-people.

Also, the Bloodtide entry does say it corrupted the people. It doesn't say physically, and really, the only sentence that offers any real evidence as to what the bloodtide actually did in this scenario is the sentence explaining that the most virtuous were now roaming the streets looking for people to sacrifice. No mention of physical transformation, no mention of any corruption past a change in mentality.

All it needed was one sentence, explaining that the sheer power of one of the most powerful bloodthirsters in existence was able to overcome even the Grey Knights powerful protections. As it is, it comes out of the blue, and since the GK are supposed to be incorruptible to all things mental, and the Bloodtide entry makes no distinction, only saying that the minds of those corrupted were... corrupted, it just comes off as confusing.

McNinja wrote:Also, the Bloodtide entry does say it corrupted the people. It doesn't say physically, and really, the only sentence that offers any real evidence as to what the bloodtide actually did in this scenario is the sentence explaining that the most virtuous were now roaming the streets looking for people to sacrifice. No mention of physical transformation, no mention of any corruption past a change in mentality.

And theres no reason to assume that couldn't also happen to the Grey Knights.

You mean besides the fact that the GK codex specifically indicates that the training and wards that the GK posses makes them incorruptible to mental corruption.

For those who have no clue who Ka'jagga'nath is, this is even more confusing, as they don't even know how insane that guy is. Again, the entry only needed one single sentence saying how the power of Ka'jagga'nath was of such pure Warp-spawned evil that it overcame every ward and protection the GK and Sisters had. And even then, this entry, based on the severity of the situation, should have had a much longer entry. You don't throw Ka'jagga'nath (the Bloodthirster who bested a Primarch in hand to hand combat), Sisters being corrupted, and GK being corruptible into a two paragraph snippet. There is too much going on with too many powerful figures.

The bloodtide was not simply Mental. It was a real psychical threat. The wards do nada vs that.

McNinja wrote:You mean besides the fact that the GK codex specifically indicates that the training and wards that the GK posses makes them incorruptible to mental corruption.

Yep, the mental corruption that would result in them abusing their powers for the benefit of the Chaos powers. The same corruption that is meant when referring to political corruption, or police corruption.

They aren't immune to the effects of the warp, and never have been.

Actually, the Bloodtide does one of 2 things.

1) You become a homocidal maniac. This is something the Gks would NOT have happen to them.

2) You explode in a shower of Gore. This is something that cold definitly happen to the GKs.

The sisters had a 3rd thing happen, nothing.


The Sister's blood was meant to protect against option 2, their wards and purity would protect them from option 1, and the result would be option 3.

Grey Templar wrote:Actually, the Bloodtide does one of 2 things.

1) You become a homocidal maniac. This is something the Gks would NOT have happen to them.

2) You explode in a shower of Gore. This is something that cold definitly happen to the GKs.

The sisters had a 3rd thing happen, nothing.


The Sister's blood was meant to protect against option 2, their wards and purity would protect them from option 1, and the result would be option 3.

Theres no reason to think it wouldn't have turned them into homicidal maniacs. And I don't remember reading about people exploding from it.

Kaldor wrote:

McNinja wrote:You mean besides the fact that the GK codex specifically indicates that the training and wards that the GK posses makes them incorruptible to mental corruption.

Yep, the mental corruption that would result in them abusing their powers for the benefit of the Chaos powers. The same corruption that is meant when referring to political corruption, or police corruption.

They aren't immune to the effects of the warp, and never have been.

Then their armor is pointless and they aren't incorruptible. Also, I have no idea what that first sentence means. How would they abuse their powers for the benefit of Chaos powers? You mean like using daemon weapons? Read the last two paragraphs on page 7 of the Gk codex. It says in plain english that the GK can wield daemonic stuff without fear of being corrupted. There is no reason why that does not apply to the Bloodtide in the GK codex.

Hunterindarkness wrote:The bloodtide was not simply Mental. It was a real psychical threat. The wards do nada vs that.

No, according to both the GK codex and Lexicanum the Bloodtide drove those who came in contact with it insane with bloodlust. No more, no less. They weren't transformed into daemons, they didn't mutate into anything, the only thing that was affected was their mind, which page 7 clearly indicates is incorruptible.

Nope, the blood time was an infection like effect. Not a mental effect. So their mental words do nothing.

Go read page 7, then go read the Bloodtide entry in the GK codex.

The other Bloodtide and the GK bloodtide are NOT the same. That Bloodtide was an infection caused by a machine that literally caused your blood to gush out of your body. The GK Bloodtide is a warp-based corruption that occurs upon coming in contact with the bloodtide.

Let's just say for cause and effect the Grey Knights would 'incorruptable' thing is propaganda, and nothing more. I mean heck one my my CHAOS terminators is a GK model...so...yeah I don't see why they can't be corrupted. Even if one, two, or 50 fell to Chaos they sure as all get out wouldn't tell anybody about it.

McNinja wrote:Go read page 7, then go read the Bloodtide entry in the GK codex.

The other Bloodtide and the GK bloodtide are NOT the same. That Bloodtide was an infection caused by a machine that literally caused your blood to gush out of your body. The GK Bloodtide is a warp-based corruption that occurs upon coming in contact with the bloodtide.

I have, the Bloodtide is not a mental control, it is not a way to seduce you. it infects the blood, corrupts the body not the soul, it runs though you like a nasty, nasty bio-plague and then you kinda go nuts. The GK are not immune to physical effects. The Gray Knights are not immune to physical warp taint, or being infected. They will not fall to chaos but they damned sure will go nuts or die. They only have a immunity to the seductive side, thier souls can not be lured to the other team. However,, they are not immune to the warp or warp effects, they have a resistance to those but are far from immune to them. The goreshed would harm and infect them just as anyone else. They would not start worshiping Chaos, but they could die from it or go nuts..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

KingmanHighborn wrote:Let's just say for cause and effect the Grey Knights would 'incorruptable' thing is propaganda, and nothing more. I mean heck one my my CHAOS terminators is a GK model...so...yeah I don't see why they can't be corrupted. Even if one, two, or 50 fell to Chaos they sure as all get out wouldn't tell anybody about it.

The book pretty much states their souls can not be corrupted, they are immune to mental psychic effects and "corruption" of the warp. just like some normal humans are also immune and can not be lured to chaos. They are not immune to the warp or its effects, even if they have some resistance to even that. They Gray Knights simply have a very effective and brutal screening process.

KingmanHighborn wrote:Let's just say for cause and effect the Grey Knights would 'incorruptable' thing is propaganda, and nothing more. I mean heck one my my CHAOS terminators is a GK model...so...yeah I don't see why they can't be corrupted. Even if one, two, or 50 fell to Chaos they sure as all get out wouldn't tell anybody about it.

propagando for who? Us? No one in the IoM except for a few select groups even know the GK exist.

McNinja wrote:Then their armor is pointless and they aren't incorruptible.

Look, you're getting all bent out of shape by the word 'corrupt'. Aging is corrupting, getting burned is getting corrupted, getting an illness is being corrupted, suffering an injury is being corrupted. Any kind of alteration or destruction, for any reason, can be considered to be a corruption.

But that isn't what the GK codex is referring to. It is referring to corruption in the every-day context. The same way you'd hear it on the news. They're talking about people abusing their power for their own ends. The codex is talking about Grey Knights performing summoning rituals and aiding Daemons in return for rewards, they're talking about Grey Knights turning a blind eye, giving up or generally being corrupt. That is the immunity Grey Knights have. Some through a great force of will and constant struggle, others because they are simply immune to it.

They aren't, and have never been, completely immune the damage or influence from psykers, daemons or sorcerors. Even with the Aegis and their Hexagrammic wards, the only effect is a -1 to enemy psykers LD tests. It's not even as significant as runes of warding, a psychic hood or whatever it is the Space Wolves have. It's just an extra layer of defence. Think of it like a bullet proof vest: it just adds a bit more protection, against some of the most common injuries and weapons.

His point is:

1) The GKs cannot turn, due to the forces of Chaos, against the Imperium.

OR

2) They can.

The Bloodtide is a force of chaos that turns you into a person who wants to murder loyalist Imperials.

So either:

1) The GKs are protected against it (without the blood of innocents / magic wards / flying green cat / whathaveyou)

OR

2) Fallen GKs who have killed / betrayed the Imperium exist.

Unit1126PLL wrote:His point is:

1) The GKs cannot turn, due to the forces of Chaos, against the Imperium.

OR

2) They can.

The Bloodtide is a force of chaos that turns you into a person who wants to murder loyalist Imperials

Your language needs to be more clear. 'turn' is too ambiguous for this debate.

A Grey Knight will never decide to serve the forces of Chaos.

The Bloodtide does not present people with a decision, it robs them of it. It may have robbed the GK of that decision also, but they warded themselves to prevent it happening.

For us to understand why the grey knights are considered incorruptible, and why this is still compatible with the events of the bloodtide, we need to think about what components of the humans there are in this universe. You have the mind, the soul and the body, and each of them can be corrupted in a different way. The mind is seduced, then soul is stolen or consumed, and the body is corrupted (In the sense of mutations and physical takeovers). The grey knights have a number of things in place to protect them. Their mind is protected by their mental fortitude, and their wards and seals. This makes them immune to the temptation of the warp. They will not be tempted to join the other side, or to fight for chaos. This is what allows them to use daemon weapons. When daemon weapons are being used, BY AND LARGE (Ie. Not all of the time), the weapon will be attempting to seduce you over to chaos, or take over your mind by force through possession. The Grey knight is immune to the seduction, as the daemon has nothing it wants, and the possession it is resistant to, thanks to the wards and the aegis etc. The soul, is also protected. Their souls have been stated to be anathema to the daemons, hurting them simply by being around. They are also helped by their physical protections, like the aegis. This makes them resistant to being possessed, and other such warp nasties like having their souls eaten. Their bodies, however, are the least protected when it comes to chaos. They can be corrupted with mutations: We know this as they can still be made daemonspawn, and also as there is little to state that they might have any resistance beyond their armor from the matter affecting properties of the warp. So, lets use the daemonspawn idea again. They have been hit by a burst of the warp, and now they have become a daemonspawn. Their body is twisted beyond all recognition, and, the important part, their PHYSICAL brain. Now, you can have all the mental fortitude in the world, but thats not going to help if your brain is literally changed on a physical level. They have not TURNED to chaos, they have had their personalities wiped, their very person destroyed, and their body hijacked by an animal intelligence. For all intents and purposes, they have been killed. This is what happened with the bloodtide. It was an entirely PHYSICAL effect, caused by a WARP source. Their armor, their wards and their training couldn't protect from the physical aspect of it, so it would have been able to enter their bodies and mutate them.

Kroothawk wrote:

Hunterindarkness wrote:Well it never says murdered. It says put to the sword. The way I read it is they needed virgin blood and the cannon fodder space Nuns provided it.

The text says, their first act was to turn their swords upon the surviving Sororitas.
Try to kill someone in real life and then tell the judge it wasn't murder because:
1.) they might have given their life freely if asked.
2.) their life is worthless anyway (cannon fodder)
3.) the voices told you that it was necessary.
Good luck with that

Just accept that killing innocents and allies to perform a blood rite is considered an evil act by most people.

Wow, and the argument just turned from justifying why brainwashed fanatical killing machines might kill another group of brainwashed fanatics in order to stop some fantastical daemonic entity/plague, to trying to get away with murder in a real-life court. There's being obtuse on purpose, and then there's just being ridiculous. The Imperium chews through thousands, if not millions, of "innocents and allies" every day, from the psykers mulched down to feed the Emperor or power the Celestial Choir, to the countless guardsmen callously thrown to their deaths in never ending wars. That's what keeps the great machine going.

Anyway, there is precedent in the Grey Knights Omnibus, where a Grey Knight who is stripped of all his wards manages to survive on a daemon planet by burying his personality deep with his mind, and letting his body basically go on auto-pilot. For a while there, he essentially functions as a Khorne berserker, mindlessly slaughtering all who are put in front of him, yet he never gave himself over to the worship and glorification of Chaos. Then, at an opportune time, the personality resurfaced, and basically he was able to engineer the downfall of an entire planet full of daemons.

So again, for the needlessly pedantic among us, there are varying types of corruption. A Grey Knight can never be turned or corrupted from the light of the Emperor and his appointed task. That's why a daemon can never tempt a Grey Knight with their promises, because the only thing a Grey Knight desires is to serve the Emperor by annihilating Chaos. Beyond that mental component, Grey Knights have NEVER been 100% immune to any warp effect, not in any edition of the fluff, not even when they were super-Puritan.

Kaldor wrote:

Hazardous Harry wrote: But there is still no case of a Grey Knight ever being so "corrupted" by the powers of the warp that they have turned their blades against their own. It hasn't happened, because if it ever had that would be a really big deal.

I'm pretty sure there are cases of Grey Knights being spawned and attacking their brothers, but I can't remember any off the top of my head. If a muscle can be warped, then so can a brain.

Hazardous Harry wrote:Premise (1): No Grey Knight has ever been so malformed or corrupted that they have started killing their brethren, even as a mindless slave.
Premise (2): The Bloodtide turned people into mad killers that turned on their fellows, due to the corrupting (either way you want to interpret that) powers of the warp.

If Premise 2 is correct, Premise 1 leads to the conclusion that there is no evidence that the Grey Knights were at real risk from the Bloodtide.

Your position here is so full of holes it's mind boggling. Just as an example:

Your head has never exploded.

Shooting someone in the head makes their head explode.

Therefore, there is no evidence that you are at any risk if you are shot in the head.

Now, you could say that there is evidence that other heads will explode when shot, so it's fair to assume yours will too. But at the same time there are other servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the bloodtide, so it's ALSO fair to say that the Grey Knights will too.

This is a terrible equivocation of my argument.

Of course there are servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the Bloodtide and other warp influences. But it's a major point in Grey Knight fluff that not a single one of them has ever fallen. There are plenty of recorded instances of Guardsmen, Marines and even Sisters of Battle being corrupted to by the warp. And that includes corruption both in a decision to fall, and a physical change that forces them to act against there brethren.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

What matters is that the bloodtide could affect them.

There isn't any evidence for this. In case you haven't noticed, Grey Knights are not your typical Imperial Citizen.

Kaldor wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:His point is:

1) The GKs cannot turn, due to the forces of Chaos, against the Imperium.

OR

2) They can.

The Bloodtide is a force of chaos that turns you into a person who wants to murder loyalist Imperials

Your language needs to be more clear. 'turn' is too ambiguous for this debate.

A Grey Knight will never decide to serve the forces of Chaos.

The Bloodtide does not present people with a decision, it robs them of it. It may have robbed the GK of that decision also, but they warded themselves to prevent it happening.

Nothing in the Codex to suggest they are talking about the same thing here. The codex certainly doesn't mention people randomly exploding in fountains of blood.

Hunterindarkness wrote:

Durza wrote:Just out of interest: people are saying the Grey KNights needed the blood of innocents to create a barrier against the Bloodtide. But in what way are the Sisters innocent? They murder people for a living.

An archaic term for Virgin was an 'innocent" They are "Pure" and "Innocent" as long as they are. The SoB are chaste nuns if I recall. And I think that is what the rite called for, which is why the sisters were used. The story never says the soB were immune or resistant. Only that a few remained as must had been corrupted by the tide.

I understand that's the theme of what they're supposed to be, and is what the term also means. (especially with the completely non sexual GW fluff) But wouldn't that be heresy/sabotage against the Imperium? Also, aren't space marines virgins?

Hazardous Harry wrote:Of course there are servants of the Emperor who have been affected by the Bloodtide and other warp influences. But it's a major point in Grey Knight fluff that not a single one of them has ever fallen. There are plenty of recorded instances of Guardsmen, Marines and even Sisters of Battle being corrupted to by the warp. And that includes corruption both in a decision to fall, and a physical change that forces them to act against there brethren.

There is no such case for the Grey Knights, and given that the fluff says they're [u incorruptible[/u] (Read: And makes no distinction like the one you're making) there's nothing to suggest that they aren't immune to both a foul influence and a warping mutation that would normally seize control of their bodies.

You are, of course, completely and utterly wrong. Ever hear of the Grey Knights Omnibus? Or how about the Siege of Vraks? I illustrated the example from the Omnibus in the post right above yours, and in the Siege of Vraks a GUO managed to warp a GK. And ironically, the Bloodtide incident is yet another piece of evidence that the GK are not utterly immune to Chaotic energies, since they needed an additional ward to protect them. And before you start on how silly that sounds, the whole 40K universe is silly. The pieces of bones and fur the Wolves festoon themselves with actually have a protective effect, because they believe in their power. The Warp storms that blanketed communications and travel during the Heresy were in large part powered not only by the deaths of the Astartes on Istvaan, but especially by their feelings of outrage and betrayal.