Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

I think you're reading a bit too much into that. Page five is over the top yes, but personally I don't really see it as something scaring away the ladies. If anything, my semi-regular opponent miss MacTavish takes page 5 to heart and tears me a new one every time we play.

If you read page 5, you would have your answers. Nice troll attempt though.

Genuinely not a troll attempt. Paraphrase page 5 for me?

Maybe it would be easier to believe casual trol isn't trolling if there wasn't a space marine model in your avatar?

PP has one random phrase and you bring in gender politics. GW has entire -legions- of troops oozing testosterone and you have no problem.

PP has female casters, female solos, female only troops, mixed gender troops. Some of the most iconic images of PP are females. I'm still looking for a poster size image of the original IK Lock and Loaded with Sam hugging her Nomad.

So pardon me if I don't think Page 5 constitues Privateer Press's official position on women.

My female friends always tell guys and each other to both man up and grow a pair, so I wouldn't worry to much.

Shotgun wrote:So pardon me if I don't think Page 5 constitues Privateer Press's official position on women.

Isn't PP currently run by a woman?

MKI versions of Page 5

http://shin14n.blogspot.com/2005/12/page-5.html

if someone can also trackdown MKII page 5 youll see that TFGs screaming "PAGE 5!" got the spirit wrong


specifically: OP should read Page 5 of Escalation and Apotheosis for better context

"Play like you've got a pair" is most certainly casual misogyny. But you've got to pick your battles, and on the scale of things worth fighting about, this doesn't even register. If it looks like you might have fun, swallow your misgivings about the game that are based on a single sentence in a single book, albeit a (perhaps) poor choice of words.

I think it's more important in this case to acknowledge the spirit of the words, rather than the literal words.

Page 5 takes the place of religion in my life...

Beer takes the place of religion in mine.

So you haven't read Page 5, but you assume the the misogyny of the entire game based on an excerpt removed from it?

That's a poor showing. Ever wonder how stereotypes started?

But in truth, the page is about playing hard. They're trying to encourage an offensive blitz, not a defensive standoff.

Please read your source materials before assuming anything.

chromedog wrote:Beer takes the place of religion in mine.

Single malt scotch and premium cigars, when I can afford it.

Mad4Minis wrote:

chromedog wrote:Beer takes the place of religion in mine.

Single malt scotch and premium cigars, when I can afford it.

I second both of these sentiments.

onTopic: Sorry, forgot to add all Page 5s have distinct differences. A lot more source material there than is assumed.

Feldenglas wrote:Genuinely not a troll attempt. Paraphrase page 5 for me?

It's hard to believe this isn't a troll attempt if you haven't bothered to find out exactly what the game/that phrase is about by picking up the rule book. And I am not even a Warmachine player.

Seeking more information about it was EXACTLY what I was doing. I am greeted with hostility and assumptions that I am trolling. I don't know anything about Privateer and their products, so I'm asking a reliable source. Those of you who responded respectfully and provided useful information, thank you. Those of you who responded with assumptions about who I am and what I am trying to do, I think you need to go and re-examine yourselves for the kinds of garbage you're projecting on me.

As for misogyny in the 40k source material, yes, absolutely. I challenge you to find a game that doesn't have it. However, I'm not sure I can find an instance where Games Workshop encourages that kind of attitude in their playerbase, as one can construe is being done here. If I'm wrong on any of these counts, correct me, but let's not have this devolve into a flamewar.

would be interested to know your thoughts after youve read Page 5 then

Some of the manliest people I know are women...

Also, who's to say that the phrase doesn't apply to women? They have several pairs, most of which are far better than any pair a man has.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny.

Half my group of WM/H players are female and none of them have ever taken offense to the phrase(it gets thrown around a lot by all of us, mostly at our Cygnar players).

My Circle playing female friend is here right now painting and she says this may reflect more on your perceptions than the company.

My wife doesn't find anything wrong with it, but she works in the military and has to deal with "casual misogyny" daily, so her opinion may be skewed(or she's the best judge we have in the matter).

Cool, next time I'm in my FLGS I'll check out page 5 in its entirety. Thanks for your encouragement, and Aerethan does make a good point about pairs!

Feldenglas wrote:Seeking more information about it was EXACTLY what I was doing. I am greeted with hostility and assumptions that I am trolling. I don't know anything about Privateer and their products, so I'm asking a reliable source.

When the first line of your post throws out 'casual misogyny', you're most likely going to illicit a negative reaction, regardless of context.

I can't speak for every member of the forums, but when you state that 'play like you've got a pair' is keeping you away from a game, you're tilting your hand a bit. Because as you stated you have no knowledge of the company/game. This means you are forming an opinion based on A. Something you heard secondhand or B. Trolling. Neither are considered good practices.


Moving forward, no, I can't think of anywhere privateer addresses the nature of this statement in any way beyond play style. Their product speaks for itself. Roughly half of all the games starter boxes have female warcasters/warlocks in them. Females dominate several kingdoms and societal systems in the game. A unit could contain males or females, living or undead.

I assure you, 'Play like you've got a pair' casts no gender bias on the game. It just had a better, more evocative sentiment than 'Be aggressive'. And was certainly less of Pandora's box than saying anything as misogynistic as 'don't play like a pussycat'.

gunslingerpro wrote:

I assure you, 'Play like you've got a pair' casts no gender bias on the game. It just had a better, more evocative sentiment than 'Be aggressive'. And was certainly less of Pandora's box than saying anything as misogynistic as 'don't play like a pussycat'.

It also fits the 2d6(or a pair of dice) system as a nice little play on words.

Platuan4th wrote:

gunslingerpro wrote:

I assure you, 'Play like you've got a pair' casts no gender bias on the game. It just had a better, more evocative sentiment than 'Be aggressive'. And was certainly less of Pandora's box than saying anything as misogynistic as 'don't play like a pussycat'.

It also fits the 2d6(or a pair of dice) system as a nice little play on words.

Well stated. Double Entendres not withstanding

I see page 5 as a set of rules for aggressive/competitive chivalry. Play hard without being rude and all that...

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

On a side note, I know a lot lot lot more female players that are involved in WM/H than the Warhammer series.

I'm guessing it's the model style that appeals to them more.

Awesome, thanks Gunslingerpro, that clarifies things nicely.

As for my approach, well, all I know about the game is what I've encountered in an ancillary fashion. IE, the game is popular, the models look fun, and the slogan evoked a reaction in me that made me question the community. I still don't think it's inaccurate to call something like that "casual misogyny", as it would be easy to interpret that as a game that's not for girls.

That said, I don't believe it was PP's intention, I'm sure they want to be as inclusive with their game as possible. Also, I'm not accusing the playerbase of being misogynists.

There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way. But it's never stopped me from enjoying a game with someone who felt differently.

So I'll take a look at page 5, and clear up my preconceived notions about "Play Like You've Got a Pair". If you're troubled by anything I've written, I'd challenge you to take a look at the ideas of gender bias and male privilege, and do some serious self reflection.

Page five was oft misunderstood on a number of levels.

The ass-hats who took it as a lisence to be TFGs being another example.

Feldenglas wrote:As for misogyny in the 40k source material, yes, absolutely. I challenge you to find a game that doesn't have it. However, I'm not sure I can find an instance where Games Workshop encourages that kind of attitude in their playerbase, as one can construe is being done here. If I'm wrong on any of these counts, correct me, but let's not have this devolve into a flamewar.

As far as mysogeny goes, I challenge you to look for it and not find it. If you already have it in your mind that the statement is against women, what's going to change your mind? A written statement from the creator saying it's not meant that way? Why would that matter?

I'm not trying to flame you, I am honestly curious. Do you get offended when people say "man up" or "you're the man"?

Hey Dok, thanks for the question, and I appreciate your tone of genuine interest.

I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games. What I suspect is that the statement was written with the best of intentions to create a specific attitude and culture around their game, but that they just didn't consider the possible gender implications. Lack of this kind of thought or consideration can be construed as casual misogyny (incidentally, here's a decent article if it helps: http://www.diamondbackonline.com/opinion/the-casual-stain-on-society-1.2709376 ))

It would be nice to know that Privateer was aware of it, and if they made a statement to that effect it would be fantastic. As a leading company in our hobby community, they have a tremendous amount of influence over the culture. Like I said, I do not believe that Privateer is anti-woman, nor do I think they should change their slogan.

I don't think terms like "man up" or "You're the man" are offensive necessarily, but look what they imply. They both portray manliness and masculinity as something positive and desirable, and both refer to assuming an attitude or expression of general maleness. "Play like you've got a pair", while also ascribing positive traits to males, does make that masculinity somewhat inaccessible by implication that it is inherently anatomical.

I don't think any of this is insurmountable. It just needs to be talked about.

Feldenglas wrote:
I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games.

Then why not just leave it at that? Unless you want to make a big deal out of it?
Starting a thread with the tone you have, seems to me like you are baiting for a war.

This is some serious projecting, and sounds more like a feminist rant than an attempt at serious discussion

I'm not quite sure what you mean by tone, Bla_Ze. Any tone that you get from text is purely inference.

I'm dismayed at your response, especially given the fact that this thread's responses started out somewhat negative and then became more constructive. Why not just leave it at that, or at least make a more enlightened contribution?

I'm not interested in making a big deal out of it, and as a mental health professional, I take my own internal process very seriously and try to stay aware of my own projections. I can assure you that they have little to do with this conversation. My goal here was to A) get some more information regarding the culture surround a game in which I was interested and B) encouraging a dialogue about implicit gender politics in said culture.

Dismissing my thread as feminist ranting is not productive to this discussion. I'd encourage you to do some research on the notion of male privilege, and consider how it may be affecting your own thought process. Thanks!

This seems to be making issues out of nothing if I am honest.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

Excuse me, please take your male dominated inferences else where.

While you don't think "man up" is offensive, in this world where machismo is a problem, I do. What is wrong with you and why do you hate women? Why must everything be so male-centric with you? Is this patriarchal society not enough for you? Please, lets pretend everything is about men and their testicles so it can be a more pleasant world for you.

It's remarkable what a hard time some people have with what really doesn't need to be a threatening topic.

If that one statement is proving such a problem for you, and gives you that the idea that PP need to apologise or something to women in general, "playing like you have a pair" might be a little beyond you .

Bullockist wrote:If that one statement is proving such a problem for you, and gives you that the idea that PP need to apologise or something to women in general, "playing like you have a pair" might be a little beyond you .

Totally OT, but I don't think I've ever been sigged! Awesome!

Feldenglas wrote:It's remarkable what a hard time some people have with what really doesn't need to be a threatening topic.

You are making this about gender, and that puts people off.

And come on, male privilege? Thats something butthurt feminnists with a inferiority complex contrived.

Please, if you want to call me a chauvinist pig please do it in plain writing.

This thread is an amusing insight towards people that play Warmahordes.

Warmahordes players got defensive when someone asked an innocent question. They even had the audacity to call him a troll when he was just curious.

And then there's Bla_Ze with tits as an avatar, sluts as a sig, and feminist-bashing in the post. Epitome of classiness right there.

---

It's simple. "Play like you've got a pair" is somewhat sexist, but it's simply tasteless. Regardless, it's not the main point of Warmahordes. It's just a single marketing phrase meant to whore for attention.

It got your attention. Now you're curious about Warmahordes, yes?

Privateer Press appreciates your attention.

A simple Google search shows many instances of people being annoyed at this tasteless marketing. It even shows examples of Press Gangers with the attitude that Bla_Ze is showing:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=26145
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332220-What-is-it-about-Warmachine-Hordes-that-you-don-t-like

When Rackham tried to rebrand itself by insulting people that didn't play their prepainted game, people told them to feth off. When Privateer Press says only sissy girls don't play this game, fanboys will defend them.

Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Bla_Ze wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:
I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games.

Then why not just leave it at that? Unless you want to make a big deal out of it?
Starting a thread with the tone you have, seems to me like you are baiting for a war.

This is some serious projecting, and sounds more like a feminist rant than an attempt at serious discussion

This is exactly the thoughts that came to mind after reading this thread.

I agree with the OP, "Play Like You've Got a Pair" is casual misogyny, and pretty low-class on the part of privateer press.

There's a clear division between creating a fictional world of testosterone-laden sci-fi warriors used as a game setting and instructing non-fictional players that they should "play like men."

It is a low-level offense, and may not bother a lot of people. But just because it "doesn't bother my female friends", that doesn't make it not misogynistic.

Its a marketing slogan... just chill out...

Absolutionis wrote:This thread is an amusing insight towards people that play Warmahordes.

Warmahordes players got defensive when someone asked an innocent question. They even had the audacity to call him a troll when he was just curious.

And then there's Bla_Ze with tits as an avatar, sluts as a sig, and feminist-bashing in the post. Epitome of classiness right there.

You have a mass murderer as an avatar, whats your point? Calling lightly dressed females "sluts" is quite sexist.
I simply reacted to the biased tone in the OP.

Absolutionis wrote:
A simple Google search shows many instances of people being annoyed at this tasteless marketing. It even shows examples of Press Gangers with the attitude that Bla_Ze is showing:
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=26145
http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?332220-What-is-it-about-Warmachine-Hordes-that-you-don-t-like

When Rackham tried to rebrand itself by insulting people that didn't play their prepainted game, people told them to feth off. When Privateer Press says only sissy girls don't play this game, fanboys will defend them.

Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Sorry to disappoint. but i have never played "Warmahordes" and never will.

SoloFalcon1138 wrote:Its a marketing slogan... just chill out...

Dude, it's the internet. No one is that worked up about anything, we're just arguing to kill time.

Absolutionis wrote:
Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Seriously?

Hey, let's take a look at a game you apparently enjoy - Infinity. One of the more popular threads on the Infinity Forums is the 'Comic Strips' thread in the art subforum.

Let's pull out an example:



And there are plenty more were that comes from, with lots of encouragement from the community. Not to mention the fact that almost every female model in the Infinity line is pretty damned good looking with form-fitting armor.

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid.

It's not the game that stops people playing it here.

It's the players. The game isn't bad - you can definitely tell it was written by Americans FOR Americans, though.

It's all about fastest and most brutal caster kills at tourneys. Not about the gameplay.

@Infinite_array: Yes, but that strip was done by a euro pervert and the humour it is supposed to contain is hiding somewhere as I've not been able to find it.

infinite_array wrote:

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid.

I have never encountered something like this? Maybe its a american thing? Sure, the talk can be a bit "macho" since were talking about young kids in their teens with raging hormones and the likes, but anti-female? That just blows my mind.

Bla_Ze wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid.

I have never encountered something like this? Maybe its a american thing? Sure, the talk can be a bit "macho" since were talking about young kids in their teens with raging hormones and the likes, but anti-female? That just blows my mind.

I... you...

infinite_array wrote:

Spoiler:

And there are plenty more were that comes from, with lots of encouragement from the community. Not to mention the fact that almost every female model in the Infinity line is pretty damned good looking with form-fitting armor.

Look, I don't deny that there's a definite anti-female streak in wargaming. That's what happens when something's been male-dominated for so long. But trying to pick and choose examples is stupid

I've honestly never seen that comic strip before. Just because it's associated with a group I associate with doesn't mean I enjoy it. It also doesn't make it right.
It also really doesn't appeal to my American-minded humor either, I guess.

Regardless, the Warmahordes sexism itself isn't what I'm complaining about.

It's their overdefensive nature. The mildest complaint about Warmahordes or PP is seen as an attack and suddenly people bring out the anti-GW artillery. I guess in this case you felt like bringing out the anti-Infinity stuff too. A new guy pops up and questions something regarding Warmahordes in really the most innocent way. Apologetics jump on the case with both GW-bashing and attacking the poster by calling him a troll.

Two wrongs don't make a right, etc. You know the drill.

Well, here's the thing.

The OP came in and started making accusations against PP when he hadn't even gone as far as to read the source material of what he was making claims against. I wouldn't call that 'innocent' in any way. That's ignorance. (But I don't want to seem as though I'm attacking the OP. Let him go back to the store, pick up one of the newest books (mk. II, Wrath or Domination), and actually read Page 5 in its entirety. People who don't understand Page 5 (and this is in general and not only speaking about some sort of 'casual misogyny') shouldn't be playing Warmachine/Hordes in the first place. And there are even some cases - like me, for example - who understand Page 5, appreciate its message, but have decided that the game's just not for them.)

So, when a person comes in and starts to claim that something you enjoy is misogynistic and, by extension, so are the players, and people like you begin to insult the fanbase, they aren't allowed to defend themselves?

And the reason for bringing 40k into the conversation is obvious. You can't make such accusations against PP, its games, and its playerbase without looking at one of the largest and most visibly-obvious wargames in the market, especially when the OP is a player of said game, and those same problems exist in that company, games, and playerbase as well.

"casual misogyny"? Really?
By the gods- its just something one guy said to another once that has gained meaning and a place in the language beyond mearly reference the size of a persons genitals....
It's not part of some over arching patriarchal scheme or unspoken bias.
It's just a phrase, granted one largely used by men.

Grrrrr....academic feminism really irks the bejesus out of me, it's screwed up scholarship every bit as much as the very real patriarchal bias that proceeded it.
Just for a good example lets look at my particular field of study- anthropology- and the feminist theory that emerged in it in the 1960's & 70's.
I'll grant you that for quite a while most anthro theories had definite bias towards men being responsible for all societal advance ment...the inteligent reponse to this is not to engage in the academic equivalent screaming " NUH UH! IT WAS ALL WOMEN! WE INVENTED ALL THE GOOD THINGS MEN JUST KILL PPL!" instead of the much more reasonable "Woman probably played in the development of language and culture as great as that of men".
Seriously, the feminist anthro writing from the period, while dressed up in academic jargon, is about that bad, and often ignores reams of contridictory evidence (as its from the patriarchy, you see).
Academic feminists reacted to a very real, and very damaging, devauling of the female that took place over millenia, with a counter reaction devaluing the male. It's left such a mark on our society that we can even mention our genitalia in a phrase with out it being supect. But just because what they reacted to was awful, does not mean that they, also, can't be just as awful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also pointing out that 40k player might have a little pot-kettle-black thing going on in this thread is leggit

I mean, the only way a woman gets to kick a little rear in the 40k universe is to become a desexed nun who worships a man? I mean seriously, even I could write a paper on the misogynist implications of that
(I should note that I actually like that the imperium is a bit misogynistic- its supposed to be a bit backwards, dogmatic, and controling, so it kind of fits the fluff and theme to be honest.)

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

azazel the cat wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

Maybe racism? I dunno. As someone who is Hispanic, my local game store tends to be..well..rife with racism in the game

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

Why are you making this political and over analyzed? If you really want to get down to the nitty gritty details, testosterone is produced by the testies and to a much lesser extent the ovaries (and vice versa for estrogen). Testosterone tends to lead to more aggressive behaviors. Warmahordes is a game that heavily favors aggression in strategy, tactics and list building. It will not apologize for you not doing your best to grab at victory, and will not act motherly and coddle you. It will, however, kick your teeth in and take 1st place, leaving you in a fetal position in dead last. This is the aggressive behaviors it believes in. These sorts of behaviors are typified as male.

I'm not really sure why you approached the topic in the way you did because you said later that you do not believe that sexism was their intent. But with your opening statements you said things that heavily implied that you accused them of sexism. If you really do feel that way about them, good. Don't play, don't collect, don't patronize. Being offended is better than labeling words or phrases as bad or offensive and never be used again. If you were wondering why you were being attacked, it was because the OP comes off as a bit holier than thou, snide attitude and indirectly attacking those who play as misogynists. A lot of these can be read from presumptuous questions such as asking for what amounts to an apology to females and also the use of buzz words such as "gender politics" and "core ethic" are sure fire to draw different emotions due to how vaguely they are defined.

azazel the cat wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

I would guess the word is "slowed". As someone who has mentally handicapped relatives, people who throw a fit over a word like that are slowed. Saying the word doesn't mean you are making fun of those who suffer some mental disorder or challenge. The word has a definition, and a single word does not define an entire people. If anything, I'm offended on behalf of those who can't defend themselves against people who insist that the word "slowed" categorizes them in some negative light. If the word means something derogatory then I'm sure no one wants to be associated with it. I for one don't call mentally handicapped people "slowed" because it is offensive. To call them such is in itself slowed.

I'm 50/50 on getting suspended for this, but it's worth the risk.

EDIT: Holy fething hell Dakka, really? We can't even USE the "R" word here? Are we children that we need to be censored from words?

I dont believe it.

But I agree with Absolutionis in this case. PP fans being overly-defensive.

everyone should just chill

and actually READ Page 5 for feth's sake.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

Sorry. Warmahordes; very much like Yorkie bars, are not for girls.





[Antijokechicken]That was a joke.[/Antijokechicken]

ShatteredBlade wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:There's a lot of gender bias in our hobby in general, and I'm familiar with how it presents itself in the GW community. I hear the 'R' word get tossed around casually in a lot of games to describe bad things that happen to squads and vehicles, and it offends me on a personal level, and frankly I wish people would stop using it that way.

What is the "R" word?



EDIT: Damn you, Infinite_Array, you ninja'd me on something hilarious!

Maybe racism? I dunno. As someone who is Hispanic, my local game store tends to be..well..rife with racism in the game

I don't think there's any racism directy within 40k, however there sure is a tremendous allegory for it. (purge the Xenos scum, etc) In any case, that sucks to hear about your FLGS. But I don't think the OP was referring to "racism" being the "R" word. Otherwise, why not just say "racism". It must be a word that the OP is afraid of.

Aerethan wrote:I would guess the word is "slowed". As someone who has mentally handicapped relatives, people who throw a fit over a word like that are slowed. Saying the word doesn't mean you are making fun of those who suffer some mental disorder or challenge. The word has a definition, and a single word does not define an entire people. If anything, I'm offended on behalf of those who can't defend themselves against people who insist that the word "slowed" categorizes them in some negative light. If the word means something derogatory then I'm sure no one wants to be associated with it. I for one don't call mentally handicapped people "slowed" because it is offensive. To call them such is in itself slowed.

I'm 50/50 on getting suspended for this, but it's worth the risk.

EDIT: Holy fething hell Dakka, really? We can't even USE the "R" word here? Are we children that we need to be censored from words?

It's possible that the OP means "slowed" by saying the "R" word, but all of a sudden, I suspect that the OP means for the "R" word to mean "rape".

Why the OP cannot bring herself (I'm assuming gender here, and ask your forgiveness if I'm incorrect) to speak the word "rape", I cannot say. Nor do I understand how someone can be offended by the word, "rape", or assume gender from it. And I'm certain that there will be an obvious retort about how most rapes are men raping women, and thus I feel the need to pre-emptively address this:

Rape is not gender-specific nor is it gender-biased. I'm well aware that in the free population, women are ten times as likely to suffer rape than men. However, this figure tends to be skewed because statutory rapes are a part of that number. Additionally, men in US prisons have reported as high as 28% being victims of rape (not the statutory kind), and keep in mind that this is the reported number, in a field with an astronomically high dark figure. So, in conclusion, try not to be offended by the term "rape". It's a word. Deal with it, because it has multiple meanings, including:

An act of plunder & despoilation = "raping the countryside" (please note that most applications to 40k, other than Fiends of Slaanesh, will likely be using this definition)
A plant = "rape oil comes from a mustard plant"
A grape husk = "now that we've stomped the juice out, we have to throw away the rape"

However, if I'm completely wrong, and "rape" is not your "R" word, then please forgive my tirade and assumptions.

gunslingerpro wrote:But in truth, the page is about playing hard. They're trying to encourage an offensive blitz, not a defensive standoff.

It's a bit telling that Privateer feels like they have the right to tell people how their game is to be played. Personally, if anyone ever tries telling me off for playing like I want to play based on that stupid little manifesto, I'd simply quote the late Rage Against the Machine: "**** *** I won't do what you tell me".

Winning is what matters. If the way to win is to dodge everything my opponent throws at me instead of charging into the fray, that's what I'll do. You want me to play aggressively? Make me, then, instead of declaring it by fiat.

Aerethan wrote:EDIT: Holy fething hell Dakka, really? We can't even USE the "R" word here? Are we children that we need to be censored from words?

Judging from the amount of flamewars and other crap we keep having, YES.

There is nothing offensive about the statement. Off-topic, I dont like a majority of Models done by PP, that is why I do not play Warmachine.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
It's a bit telling that Privateer feels like they have the right to tell people how their game is to be played. Personally, if anyone ever tries telling me off for playing like I want to play based on that stupid little manifesto, I'd simply quote the late Rage Against the Machine: "**** *** I won't do what you tell me".

Winning is what matters. If the way to win is to dodge everything my opponent throws at me instead of charging into the fray, that's what I'll do. You want me to play aggressively? Make me, then, instead of declaring it by fiat.

I wonder, if in fact, you play the game. Scenario wise, your strategy works well about 50% of the time. I would say that most scenarios and game types, however, require a fair amount of aggressive action to secure victory. This is, in fact, how they are making you play aggressively. They're not telling you how to play, they are telling you how to win

I also notice that a majority of your posts are negative regarding the company and the recent directions it's taken. That is your decision, and I respect that. But I think your vitriol in the matter has somewhat blunted your argument.

Absolutionis wrote:This thread is an amusing insight towards people that play Warmahordes.

Warmahordes players got defensive when someone asked an innocent question. They even had the audacity to call him a troll when he was just curious.

*snip*

Don't get discouraged Feldenglas. Warmahordes isn't a bad game, and the ruleset is rather innocent. It's the fanbase that is just awful.

Making broad, sweeping generalization about a group of people? And you wonder why they get so defensive so fast.

gunslingerpro wrote:I also notice that a majority of your posts are negative regarding the company and the recent directions it's taken. That is your decision, and I respect that. But I think your vitriol in the matter has somewhat blunted your argument.

The majority of my posts are not negative regarding Privateer Press. Almost all of them are negative, this is true, but I do not consider PP to be worth more than a fraction of my overall attention, which I'm sure the statstics would bear out, were I to collate my posting behavior to a table or graph form. I call things as I see them, and I see them... well, Yeats said it best: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

ever think that Yeats could be...wrong?

As if to throw fuel on the fire, I think some people need to look up the meaning of misogyny. That is some very heavy acusations over a symple phrase, a phrase we know what it means.

The implication is to play in an agressive way, using the steriotype of men being agressive. Perhaps you should consider that equaly men could get upset over the idea that you are not a real man unless you are hyper agressive.

If you want to get het up about something look in to how Women/Girls are treated going on to games stores.

Agamemnon2 wrote:
The majority of my posts are not negative regarding Privateer Press. Almost all of them are negative, this is true, but I do not consider PP to be worth more than a fraction of my overall attention, which I'm sure the statstics would bear out, were I to collate my posting behavior to a table or graph form. I call things as I see them, and I see them... well, Yeats said it best: "The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity."

My order of words is obviously confusing. Let me restate: In regards to Privateer Press, the majority of your posts are negative.

I was not implying that you summarily posted about Privateer Press, rather that your feelings on and lack of experience with the company make almost any post you make regarding it shallow. You've reiterated my point with what you posted above.

On topic, I don't really think it's something to get worked up about. But I cannot prevent someone from being offended. But I reiterate, read a good portion of the source material before forming opinions.

@gunslinger

at least its easier to ignore him now since we now know that he's not coming from a reasonable standpoint in all things PP related

I think you're reading far, far too much into it...

As a female I'm not offended in the slightest by it. Yes, I know, that doesn't make either of us correct, but then, what can be done about this? Would you really want to change it?

I don't look at the saying and think "Aww damn.. Well, I would grow a pair - if only it were possible! Perhaps I can't play this game!"

For some reason, I don't think it was meant to be taken entirely literally, but that's just me...

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

You are the reason that sex jokes are not allowed in the office anymore.

This statement is NOT misogynistic. Misogyny is the HATRED of women. This statement is not showing HATRED for woman. All it means is "play ballsy." - "Play hard".

Misogyny would be "I hate women because they are irrational" - the original Greek use, as an example.

I don't agree that his is misogyny - remember that misogyny means hatred of women, and I'm not seeing any hate here. If I was going to be perturbed by anything regarding this statement it would be the way it sounds like something an obnoxious opponent might say during a game because they thought you weren't playing "right."

Fun Fact! - Did you know that the word "misandry" is the male equivalent to the word "misogyny"? It means hatred of men.

It's scary how often the word "misogyny" gets thrown around like it's going out of fashion, yet my spell-checker doesn't even recognise "misandry" as a word in the dictionary...

gunslingerpro wrote:My order of words is obviously confusing. Let me restate: In regards to Privateer Press, the majority of your posts are negative.

This might be so. Unfortunately, since the availability of the products has gone down so dramatically in recent times (and because I'd rather support local game stores than Maelstrom) any further PP purchases on my part will have to wait until a local distributor is reestablished. This, sadly, is not likely to happen. Sadly, this also means I do not have a playable army list.

I stand by my observations, however.

Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

Feldenglas wrote:I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

You probably would love the game now.

It's a good game.

Some people, for some reason*, hate Privateer Press and demean their games. But since the game continues to grow and become more popular** in gaming communities, the focus has shifted to demeaning the playerbase.*** "Don't play that game, it's for d***s."****

You can either play the stupid "this game that I've never played sucks because X", or you can be a rational person and play the game yourself before judging it. If there's a PP community near you, they would love to give you a demo and play smaller games with you to help you get started.*****

* Chief among these reasons is because they're not Games Workshop
** Unlike certain sci-fi fantasy games
*** Which, given some of the 40k fanbase I've experienced, is hilariously ironic
**** casual misandry is actually more common than casual misogyny, if you accept the existence of either
***** surprisingly difficult in 40k communities, by the way

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

"play like you got a pair"
Then you the neckbeards who are gaming, and you laugh and laugh and laugh.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bla_Ze wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:It's remarkable what a hard time some people have with what really doesn't need to be a threatening topic.

You are making this about gender, and that puts people off.

And come on, male privilege? Thats something butthurt feminnists with a inferiority complex contrived.

Please, if you want to call me a chauvinist pig please do it in plain writing.

Says the player with boobs as an avatar. Seriously? What are you, twelve?

'Play like you've got a pair' doesn't always have to mean 'Play like you've got a pair of testicles'.

Women have things in pairs as well. Like kidneys and ovaries and gazongas.

As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

Less offensive, more tasteless and lame.

Frazzled wrote:

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

Less offensive, more tasteless and lame.

I agree that it is pretty lame, but I think throwing accusations of misogyny at it is an overreaction.

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

All the PP bashers have already come out of the woodwork, you can stop trolling now...

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

Oh man, too funny. If you were less PC and more in tune with the fact that this is a game of little toy monsters and robots kicking each other's asses in our imaginations then yes, you definitely would have enjoyed it more.

I'm only saying this because you're clearly demeaning the game that you haven't even played. Yes, its not the same as 40K. Yes, the PR tagline is more dramatic than what most companies would have gone with. But guess what, just from roving the forums here and at PP forums I get the impression there are more women playing WM/H than any GW games. Is it because of the tag line, or in spite of it? Most likely its neither reason and just the fact that most people who spend hundreds of dollars on miniatures can take a joke.

Also, the whole thread sounds like you made a broad statement in the OP, got shot up and called out for it, and instead of admitting you made a rash assumption that was baseless you got super logical and polite and tried to back-pedal. Its the internet man, admitting you were wrong or hasty really doesn't cost too much.

EDIT: Also, PP front page has regular "insider" articles from female employees. I can't recall the same from any GW thing ever but I could easily be wrong. Not going to check at work. I also intentionally avoided comparing the models that the two companies produce but from my own experiance PP's females have much more realistic proportions, are less scantly clad, and don't just fill traditional female roles like sorceress, assassin, priestess, evil witch, etc. This is a generalization of course and the general feeling of someone who's been playing GW games for a decade and doesn't even play PP games yet. I have painted their stuff and its exceptional quality. Now that Finecast looks to be entrenched...well, it doesn't need to be said again. Ya'll have seen the 70+ page thread

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

As someone that isn't thinking about starting warmachine because he still cant finish his puny 3000pt GW army and he only plays twice a month anyway, I entered the thread not knowing what it was on about, but I disagree with the OP, it seems to be just needless nit picking.

Now that I am here however....

I am glad to see that the people who play Warmachine are as ridiculously easy to offend and ridiculously aggressive with people they think are criticising PP on their own turf.

I'm what, 4500 posts in? I've never once entered a PP thread because I don't play it. Its nice to see that the haters don't extend me the same courtesy and endlessly troll the GW threads with their hatred and bile and virtual bullying.

How about you haters extend the embattled Warhammer players the same friggin courtesy and stay out of the GW threads if you don't play the games or buy the models or intend to start? You know, like I do?

I mean, fairs fair and all that chaps. One law for all yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

All the PP bashers have already come out of the woodwork, you can stop trolling now...

Fezman wrote:I don't agree that his is misogyny - remember that misogyny means hatred of women, and I'm not seeing any hate here.

The root words might directly translate to hatred of women, but everyone using the word knows that it means "bias against women" in our modern usage. Suggesting that misogyny means "hatred of women" is just being pedantic to win technicality points.

This message paid for by the Council to Improve Internet Arguments.

mattyrm what the feth are you talking about?

mattyrm wrote:

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

As someone that isn't thinking about starting warmachine because he still cant finish his puny 3000pt GW army and he only plays twice a month anyway, I entered the thread not knowing what it was on about, but I disagree with the OP, it seems to be just needless nit picking.

Now that I am here however....

I am glad to see that the people who play Warmachine are as ridiculously easy to offend and ridiculously aggressive with people they think are criticising PP on their own turf.

I'm what, 4500 posts in? I've never once entered a PP thread because I don't play it. Its nice to see that the haters don't extend me the same courtesy and endlessly troll the GW threads with their hatred and bile and virtual bullying.

How about you haters extend the embattled Warhammer players the same friggin courtesy and stay out of the GW threads if you don't play the games or buy the models or intend to start? You know, like I do?

I mean, fairs fair and all that chaps. One law for all yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

All the PP bashers have already come out of the woodwork, you can stop trolling now...

How is this a GW thread? Please explain. Also, Dakka Dakka is not a strictly GW forum and general discussion is just that. Also, what about players that play both. What was the point of the army points you mentioned? It wasn't very clear, but I hope you weren't indicating the size of your collection. That would just be irrelevant.

I really don't care for the use of 'rape' I've more recently come across in some gaming circles. If someone has badly lost a game then someone may say 'they were raped' or if someone is likely to be beaten 'you're going to be raped so bad'.

That's just horrible language, is it supposed to be funny? It must come from the mouths of people who have no experience with rape, but it's surprising how many people have been raped or know someone who has been. Seems a needless and stupid choice of language considering you never know who is a rape victim. I imagine more girls have been raped than men and are more likely to tell each other, so that's another way to alienate female gamers or their friends in particular.

mattyrm wrote:

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

As someone that isn't thinking about starting warmachine because he still cant finish his puny 3000pt GW army and he only plays twice a month anyway, I entered the thread not knowing what it was on about, but I disagree with the OP, it seems to be just needless nit picking.

Now that I am here however....

I am glad to see that the people who play Warmachine are as ridiculously easy to offend and ridiculously aggressive with people they think are criticising PP on their own turf.

I'm what, 4500 posts in? I've never once entered a PP thread because I don't play it. Its nice to see that the haters don't extend me the same courtesy and endlessly troll the GW threads with their hatred and bile and virtual bullying.

How about you haters extend the embattled Warhammer players the same friggin courtesy and stay out of the GW threads if you don't play the games or buy the models or intend to start? You know, like I do?

I mean, fairs fair and all that chaps. One law for all yes?

Was this aimed at me? Because if so I suggest you look at my sig which clearly shows that I play 40k as my main game. I don't play WM as yet, but I'm thinking of starting it, also clearly stated in my post. I'm not easy to offend, nor am I being aggressive to people critising the tagline, I'm just saying that, imo, the tagline is not offensive, just a bit lame and ott and that calling it misogynistic is an overreaction. I don't hate on stuff or troll, life's too short. You do in fact appear to be agreeing with me, so why did you quote me here? Or was this meant for someone else?

powerclaw wrote:

How is this a GW thread? Please explain. Also, Dakka Dakka is not a strictly GW forum and general discussion is just that. Also, what about players that play both. What was the point of the army points you mentioned? It wasn't very clear, but I hope you weren't indicating the size of your collection. That would just be irrelevant.

Its not a GW thread, its a PP thread, and the first page was pretty much people calling the OP a troll.

The point I was making is painfully bloody obvious, why must I wade through reams of endless gak when Im in a thread about GW games and products, If most GW players don't burst into threads about PP products and start saying how gak everything PP make is?

In GW threads, half of the people who post are there to slag off GW, bully people that defend GW, and mock anyone who happens to play their games while they smugly proclaim "I don't buy GW anyway! I haven't for years!"

Phantom Viper there seems to spend his entire week doing just that, but here I am in my first ever PP orientated thread and here he is giving it the "waah waah waaah" because some people (behaviour I dont agree with either obviously) are trolling PP players.

My point, is if you dont play PP, why the feth go into PP threads and annoy people? Leave them be and go play your game, talk to your PP friends, paint your PP models, knock yourself out.

And ergo, If you dont play GW, why on Gods green earth must you insist on rocking up in all the GW threads, and whinging until your hoarse in your virtual throat?

The vast majority of warhammer players extend PP players that very same courtesy, why cant they be equally polite?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Castiel wrote:
Was this aimed at me?

No, you have a Space Marine avatar gave me a clue for starters.

powerclaw wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

As someone that isn't thinking about starting warmachine because he still cant finish his puny 3000pt GW army and he only plays twice a month anyway, I entered the thread not knowing what it was on about, but I disagree with the OP, it seems to be just needless nit picking.

Now that I am here however....

I am glad to see that the people who play Warmachine are as ridiculously easy to offend and ridiculously aggressive with people they think are criticising PP on their own turf.

I'm what, 4500 posts in? I've never once entered a PP thread because I don't play it. Its nice to see that the haters don't extend me the same courtesy and endlessly troll the GW threads with their hatred and bile and virtual bullying.

How about you haters extend the embattled Warhammer players the same friggin courtesy and stay out of the GW threads if you don't play the games or buy the models or intend to start? You know, like I do?

I mean, fairs fair and all that chaps. One law for all yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

All the PP bashers have already come out of the woodwork, you can stop trolling now...

How is this a GW thread? Please explain. Also, Dakka Dakka is not a strictly GW forum and general discussion is just that. Also, what about players that play both. What was the point of the army points you mentioned? It wasn't very clear, but I hope you weren't indicating the size of your collection. That would just be irrelevant.

I will tell you this once and only once.

Do not poke the bear. It will end badly for everyone involved.

Also, way to completely dodge the question and go straight for the personal attacks. I, for one, somewhat agree with MattyRM. This is a mainly WH40k board. So if you come on and insult WH40k as a PP gamer, don't be offended if they come out of the woodwork to defend it.

Right, I was confused as to why you quoted me there.

mattyrm wrote:The vast majority of warhammer players extend PP players that very same courtesy, why cant they be equally polite?

Because they play like they have a bigger pair?

Let's all stay calm please people.

And also, please don't call each other names and the like, it really doesn't help you argue your point.

Chowderhead wrote:

mattyrm wrote:The vast majority of warhammer players extend PP players that very same courtesy, why cant they be equally polite?

Because they play like they have a bigger pair?

Quite possibly, I however will now heed reds words and bugger off to a thread about a game I actually play and understand.

Merely my two cents chaps.

I'm sure WM is a fine game though, I like plenty of their models....

Chowderhead wrote:

powerclaw wrote:

mattyrm wrote:

Castiel wrote:As someone thinking about starting Warmachine I thought this might be an informative thread. Instead it turned out to be an arguement over whether a tagline enocouraging people to play offensively was offensive to women and a general bashing of Warmachine. I am disappoint.

It just means "go after them and hit them with sticks" rather than sitting back and waiting for them to come and hit you with sticks. Saying that it is offensive to anyone is silly, frankly.

As someone that isn't thinking about starting warmachine because he still cant finish his puny 3000pt GW army and he only plays twice a month anyway, I entered the thread not knowing what it was on about, but I disagree with the OP, it seems to be just needless nit picking.

Now that I am here however....

I am glad to see that the people who play Warmachine are as ridiculously easy to offend and ridiculously aggressive with people they think are criticising PP on their own turf.

I'm what, 4500 posts in? I've never once entered a PP thread because I don't play it. Its nice to see that the haters don't extend me the same courtesy and endlessly troll the GW threads with their hatred and bile and virtual bullying.

How about you haters extend the embattled Warhammer players the same friggin courtesy and stay out of the GW threads if you don't play the games or buy the models or intend to start? You know, like I do?

I mean, fairs fair and all that chaps. One law for all yes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PhantomViper wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

All the PP bashers have already come out of the woodwork, you can stop trolling now...

How is this a GW thread? Please explain. Also, Dakka Dakka is not a strictly GW forum and general discussion is just that. Also, what about players that play both. What was the point of the army points you mentioned? It wasn't very clear, but I hope you weren't indicating the size of your collection. That would just be irrelevant.

I will tell you this once and only once.

Do not poke the bear. It will end badly for everyone involved.

Also, way to completely dodge the question and go straight for the personal attacks. I, for one, somewhat agree with MattyRM. This is a mainly WH40k board. So if you come on and insult WH40k as a PP gamer, don't be offended if they come out of the woodwork to defend it.

Its kind of confusing with all the quotes, but is that for me? I was just confused. There were no personal attacks. I now realize that mattrym was coming on a PP thread to ask PP players to not come on GW threads to rip on GW because ofter all, can't PP players let GW talk GW in peace so that GW players don't come on PP threads and do the same. See why I'd be confused? Also, the number of points listed is still confusing to me. I was only asking because it was a very strongly worded post that I had trouble understanding and would likely lead to more fighting.

Also, I'm not actually a PP player as of yet and I will go wherever I please to point out what's wrong with the system I've been playing for so long, imo.

Chowderhead wrote: This is a mainly WH40k board. So if you come on and insult WH40k as a PP gamer, don't be offended if they come out of the woodwork to defend it.

I have 3000+ pts of Imperial Guard.
I have 4000+ pts of Dark Elves

Before the Failcrap / 8th edition WHFB disaster hit, I had armies of Tau, Skaven, Demons, Space Wolves, Tomb Kings and was starting a Dark Eldar army.

I also own fully playable armies / fleets / gangs / squadrons of BFG, Mordheim, Necromunda, Blood Bowl, INQUISITOR and Aeronautica Imperialis.

May I talk about GW products now, Mister, may I?

Misread intentions, gratuitous grandstanding, endless pedantry... Looks like any other thread on here.

OP, grow up, seriously.

I don't find "Play like you've got a pair" offensive. Juvenile, perhaps. But not offensive.

Frazzled wrote:
Says the player with boobs as an avatar. Seriously? What are you, twelve?

Says the player with a weiner as an avatar. Thats sick.

And by they way, the boobs clearly say warhammer 40k so its perfectly ok.

So did you actually have anything worthwhile to say, or only to poke fun?

i am so confused with this thread right now

its kinda like a fight breaking out over a family dinner

:|

Respond to threads like you've got a brain.

.....ba-dum-tsh!



[Meant as a light-hearted joke, no targets! Don't shoot!... pleee-hehe-ease don't shooot meehhh!]
Yeah I don't have a clue as to what's going on here either anymore.

Bla_Ze wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Says the player with boobs as an avatar. Seriously? What are you, twelve?

Says the player with a weiner as an avatar. Thats sick.

And by they way, the boobs clearly say warhammer 40k so its perfectly ok.

So did you actually have anything worthwhile to say, or only to poke fun?

One can be both.

Growing up feminist, in an all woman household, I'm usually very aware of even more covert attempts at misogyny.
However, I think it's important to realize that having skin that's so paper thin that we all become verbally and morally paralyzed and unable to make even casual reference to the unique and beautiful differences between the genders actually harms the ideas of equality, non-biased gender relationships, and the joy of individual gender identity.
That said, yeah, maybe the phrase is a bit gender biased or misogynistic, but it's flying so low on the flag pole of what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, that I have only registered it in the most minor fashion.
OP feels a bit overly sensitive, and really, more like Bla_ze said, ranting.
Also, Bla_Ze, I love that your are posting in this thread with that avatar. The juxtaposition is hilarious.

matphat wrote:Growing up feminist, in an all woman household, I'm usually very aware of even more covert attempts at misogyny.
However, I think it's important to realize that having skin that's so paper thin that we all become verbally and morally paralyzed and unable to make even casual reference to the unique and beautiful differences between the genders actually harms the ideas of equality, non-biased gender relationships, and the joy of individual gender identity.
That said, yeah, maybe the phrase is a bit gender biased or misogynistic, but it's flying so low on the flag pole of what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, that I have only registered it in the most minor fashion.
OP feels a bit overly sensitive, and really, more like Bla_ze said, ranting.
Also, Bla_Ze, I love that your are posting in this thread with that avatar. The juxtaposition is hilarious.

Crap, i had to look that word up, so im not sure if you are prasing me or not. Im taking a wild leap and guessing not. But you know, normally im more of a lurker but i posted in this thread for a reason.

Leave it to americans to go bonkers over a pair of clothed bobbies Its not like your the biggest consumer and producer of "sexist" media (porn).
I myself have a more open and balanced view on sex and gender, but its fun to see the attempts at quaint christian moralism (i hope that was correct)

Frazzled wrote:
One can be both.

Quite correct old chap, i was hoping you picked up on my amusing tone, not sure i succeeded.

Yep, it was more or less a compliment.
Mostly because I feel it ironic, and wish I had thought of doing something similar.

matphat wrote:Growing up feminist, in an all woman household, I'm usually very aware of even more covert attempts at misogyny.
However, I think it's important to realize that having skin that's so paper thin that we all become verbally and morally paralyzed and unable to make even casual reference to the unique and beautiful differences between the genders actually harms the ideas of equality, non-biased gender relationships, and the joy of individual gender identity.
That said, yeah, maybe the phrase is a bit gender biased or misogynistic, but it's flying so low on the flag pole of what we are bombarded with on a daily basis, that I have only registered it in the most minor fashion.
OP feels a bit overly sensitive, and really, more like Bla_ze said, ranting.
Also, Bla_Ze, I love that your are posting in this thread with that avatar. The juxtaposition is hilarious.

I actually don't think this is at all misogynistic, It is, if anything, more offensive to men because it implies that all men are aggressive and insensitive.

I think it's all about general social context. For example, my partner and closest friends all throw insults at one another. It's something of a way of showing affection... But we're never more foul-mouthed to each other than when we're gaming.

Juvenile? Yup. Fun? Yup. Common? Yup.
Ill-intentioned? Nope.

Some of the ways I comically slate my boyfriend and friends, I'd never just say to random people I'm gaming against, unless I knew they were on a similar wave-length to me, had and a similar sense of humour.

I think the whole "Play like you've got a pair" line could easily be taken as a similar strand of the kind of context I illustrated above. It just strikes me as general gaming banter like you'd find amongst friends if you were playing any other game...

Howard A Treesong wrote:I really don't care for the use of 'rape' I've more recently come across in some gaming circles. If someone has badly lost a game then someone may say 'they were raped' or if someone is likely to be beaten 'you're going to be raped so bad'.

That's just horrible language, is it supposed to be funny? It must come from the mouths of people who have no experience with rape, but it's surprising how many people have been raped or know someone who has been. Seems a needless and stupid choice of language considering you never know who is a rape victim. I imagine more girls have been raped than men and are more likely to tell each other, so that's another way to alienate female gamers or their friends in particular.

I think I addressed this on page 2. "Rape" can be synonymous with "despoiled". It doesn't necessarily refer to forced intercourse. Also, the husks of grapes are refered to as rape after they get a stomping in the winemaking process. That also applies, to some degree.

If things like this are a big problem for some people, I want your lives.

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

I don't really care about how this resonates just with females. I am more concerned about how it impacts the entire player base. Personally I don't really enjoy playing games with people who are too into a slogan like that. Just my 2 cents.

So maybe the real question is other than a little mysogyny (and I do mean a little) is this any different than all the guys running around yelling WAAAAAAAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH at a GW event? I don't think so but I think page five wasn't really the greatest idea ever.

My complaint with this is the designers are encouraging people to play badly.

@Darkness

have you played WMH?

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

Hmmmmmm....... I was originally a little bit on your side but I think you just might be taking this a little too seriously (and by a little I mean a lot). You are telling me you are ok playing a game (40k in this case) that routinely touches on mass genocide, deamonic corruption, and essentially whose only female models are sexed up nuns in brasiers but somehow a single sentence on one page of a rulebook somehow offends you this much that you think you might have enjoyed the game when you were a pimply faced immature kid?

Interesting to sat the least.

azazel the cat wrote:Also, the husks of grapes are refered to as rape after they get a stomping in the winemaking process. That also applies, to some degree.

Oh yes, I'm sure that's what people have in mind when saying "I'll rape you", either that or they are making some peculiar reference to Brassica napus.

DarknessEternal wrote:My complaint with this is the designers are encouraging people to play badly.

For what it's worth, Warmachine is a game that seriously favours aggression. Playing defensively in Warmachine is the surest way to lose.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Howard A Treesong wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:Also, the husks of grapes are refered to as rape after they get a stomping in the winemaking process. That also applies, to some degree.

Oh yes, I'm sure that's what people have in mind when saying "I'll rape you", either that or they are making some peculiar reference to Brassica napus.

What, that's less likely than sexually assaulting a person over a game of 40k? There must be a lot of Slaanesh armies in your gaming group.

Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

Feldenglas wrote:Hey Dok, thanks for the question, and I appreciate your tone of genuine interest.

I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games. What I suspect is that the statement was written with the best of intentions to create a specific attitude and culture around their game, but that they just didn't consider the possible gender implications. Lack of this kind of thought or consideration can be construed as casual misogyny (incidentally, here's a decent article if it helps: http://www.diamondbackonline.com/opinion/the-casual-stain-on-society-1.2709376 ))

It would be nice to know that Privateer was aware of it, and if they made a statement to that effect it would be fantastic. As a leading company in our hobby community, they have a tremendous amount of influence over the culture. Like I said, I do not believe that Privateer is anti-woman, nor do I think they should change their slogan.

I don't think terms like "man up" or "You're the man" are offensive necessarily, but look what they imply. They both portray manliness and masculinity as something positive and desirable, and both refer to assuming an attitude or expression of general maleness. "Play like you've got a pair", while also ascribing positive traits to males, does make that masculinity somewhat inaccessible by implication that it is inherently anatomical.

I don't think any of this is insurmountable. It just needs to be talked about.

i dont think its anything of the kind. I think you're taking things too far, and too literally. that article of yours is scary, and ridiculously over the top. This political correctness garbage wasnt funny 10 years ago, and its certainly not funny now. ISeriously, i think its as dangerous to say that "man up" and "you're the man" are bad things, as you imply here. There is already a crisis of masculinity out there. too many guys are afraid of being guys, and dont know how. too many young lads out there go through a lot of mental torment over what are perfectly natural thoughts and impulses. If you ask me, the last generation of pro-feminist dogma has pushed things too far the other way. It almost feels like "being a guy" is a bad thing. And before you ask, I am not an overly aggressive jock. Im a normal guy. guy friends, girl friends. gay, straight, and strange. I have healthy relationships with both sexes, and firmly believe not in the superiority of one sex over another, but that evolution crafted us to work together and bring different strengths and skills to life's hurdles.
I feel what you've said is dangerous, and symptomatic of a very dangeous and negative attitude. Masculinity is (as you've done here) marginalised, ridiculed and looked down upon. Why? Apparently, its not good enough. you know, its somehow bad to be a guy, and think guy thoughts, and to want to do guy things.... *sigh* A ong time ago, i rebelled against that notion. No, you dont need to be a jerk about being male. YOu dont have to go over the top. But you know what? Its 3 million years of evolution, hormones and wiring that are guiding us. Its not good. Or bad. Good and Bad literally have nothing to do with it. And you know what? Its OK to want to watch "the game". Its OK to enjoy juvenile toilet humour. Its OK to have a ridiculously high sex drive. Its OK to enjoy testosterone fuelled aggressive sports like Rugby and Boxing. Its OK to think she has a nice butt. Its OK to have a Mancave", where you can hide from the world. Its OK to have moments where you shave with a rock, wrestle grizzlies, and punch trees. Its OK to be "a guy". Despite what the PC brigade says, none of that stops you being a well adjusted, stable member of society capable of a good work ethic, honest and valued morals, and the ability to maintain healthy relathionships with the opposite (or the same) sex.

Page 5 is tongue in cheek trash talking. its not meant to be taken seriously. sadly, too many people out there are looking for the next great thing to be offended about, gather round a flag, and get the protest banners out, light the torches and march against the evil empire. "play like you got a pair" is just a phrase. Just like "balls!"Which is a rather amusing swear word that seems to be spoken aloud by both genders. WHat amuses me is that a our "bits" tend to be used as swear words and expletives from time to time.

TheSinheizer wrote:I think it's all about general social context. For example, my partner and closest friends all throw insults at one another. It's something of a way of showing affection... But we're never more foul-mouthed to each other than when we're gaming.

Juvenile? Yup. Fun? Yup. Common? Yup.
Ill-intentioned? Nope.

Some of the ways I comically slate my boyfriend and friends, I'd never just say to random people I'm gaming against, unless I knew they were on a similar wave-length to me, had and a similar sense of humour.

I think the whole "Play like you've got a pair" line could easily be taken as a similar strand of the kind of context I illustrated above. It just strikes me as general gaming banter like you'd find amongst friends if you were playing any other game...

amen. when me and my family and friends get together, its like an episode of South Park. And i wouldnt have it any other way

Feldenglas wrote:

I don't really care about how this resonates just with females. I am more concerned about how it impacts the entire player base. Personally I don't really enjoy playing games with people who are too into a slogan like that. Just my 2 cents.
.

And yet most people take it as its meant to be taken - as a bit of tongue in cheek fun. Please see my post below. Page 5 is nothing but a good thing for the hobby in general. Most people i know seem to enjoy the inherent aggression and "ballsy" play (girls too!) ANd i think, honestly, you should get to know the community before you say you want to have nothing to do with them

DarknessEternal wrote:My complaint with this is the designers are encouraging people to play badly.

define "play badly",

here is page 5.

1) Thou Shalt Not Whine. seriously, more 40k players should take this to heart. there is an internet joke out there that a group of 40k players is called a whine. Look at the GeeDub general discussion page on any 40k page. the constant moaning, complaining and whining ruins the game for me.
2) Come Heavy Or Don't Come At All plat the best game you can. Be aggressive, bring your best, bring your A game, and throw down. thats the ultimate respect you can give me as a friend and opponent.
3) Give As Good As You Get self explanitory. go down fighting. dont wimp out. Be as good as you can be. Play the best players, and constatly seek to up your game.
4) Win Graciously And Lose Valiantly. seems a mighty fine ethos.
5) Page 5 Is Not An Excuse the crux of the matter. anyone using page 5 as an excuse to be a jerk, quite simply, is a jerk. and they were jerks before page 5 came along. doing what he's doing completely misses the point of page 5. to be honest, i dont see how any of that can be taken to encourage anything other than a good attitude towards your opponents.

seriously people. this is what Page 5 is all about. Its about making it the best game possible for you and your opponents. Its nothing but a positive attitude to bring to your games, and one that IMO, if more people had, would make this a bigger and better hobby.

or D) I'm going to violate you in the worst ways possible, which is pretty much what that term boils down too.

azazel the cat wrote:
For what it's worth, Warmachine is a game that seriously favours aggression. Playing defensively in Warmachine is the surest way to lose.

Oh really?

DarknessEternal wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
For what it's worth, Warmachine is a game that seriously favours aggression. Playing defensively in Warmachine is the surest way to lose.

Oh really?

Yes, really. In any scenario aside from pure assassination, defensive playing will lose you the game, especially against something like my eKreoss T4 list which will be sitting on the objectives turn 1 or sometimes even pre-turn 1.

PP even frowns on it as it prolongs the game needlessly in many cases, hence why Killbox was introduced.

Also, I wouldn't necessarily term "hit and run" as a defensive tactic.

Deadnight wrote:

1) Thou Shalt Not Whine.

Dakka would IMPLODE if this was an enforced rule.

azazel the cat wrote:
Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

Howard A Treesong wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

The Wife had an excellent way of solving the usage of this term, when the boy and his friends were hanging out at the house, and kept muttering such.
It was simple yet elegant.
Wife: "I will beat to death the next person that says that in this house."
Genghis Connie: "Yea what mom said!"
teenagers: silence.
In the distance a wiener dog snored.

The Wife had an excellent way of solving the usage of this term, when the boy and his friends were hanging out at the house, and kept muttering such.
It was simple yet elegant.
Wife: "I will beat to death the next person that says that in this house."
Genghis Connie: "Yea what mom said!"
teenagers: silence.
In the distance a wiener dog snored.

Howard A Treesong wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:
Tell me which one seems a more likely allegory coming from across a miniatures table:

A: I'm going to stomp you into pulp!

B: I'm going to despoil your entire army!

C: I'm going to forcibly engage in sexual intercourse with you!

You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

Indeed. I have dealt with women who have suffered that for real and it's not fun or pleasant. I also train people in self defense (of various levels of lethality varying from locks and takedowns to blowing the bastard's brains out) to avoid from having to suffer that as well as other crimes. Only an idiot would try to trivialize something like this.

Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin. The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

I honestly haven't heard anyone in real life use the term "rape" as a euphemism for "utterly defeated" since I left high school. Anyone who does use said term is... pretty bad. I generally don't play against people who are under 18 anyway.

As for the "Play Like You Got A Pair".... it's a silly marketing slogan and I don't know anyone of any gender who decided not to play Warmachine because of it.

Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Howard A Treesong wrote:You're being wilfully obtuse. I know the phrase is being used to impart how much of a defeat you are about to receive. But it has a far more obvious and meaningful everyday usage. My point is that it's extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset. Perhaps you are one of these people who think it's okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying you think they are bad? I mean it's just an allegory, it's not as if you actually are alluding to them having some sort of mental condition are you? My further point what that rape is a fairly emotive subject, and throwing around that sort of language you defend is likely to upset someone who has any experience with it, which isn't actually a small number of people, and you can't possibly tell who they are by looking at them.

I assume you have the sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair "your tactics are completely slowed". So why are you happy talking about how badly people are going to be raped today when you don't know who might be upset by such conversation?

Personally, I am one of those people who think it's not okay to call others or their armies 'slowed' in place of just saying that I think they are bad. (I don't even do that, honestly. I'm the 'nice guy' at the tables, because, why not?) And I have the good sense to not say to someone in a wheelchair that "their tactics are completely slowed" because it likely doesn't apply. However, the wheelchair has nothing to do with it, so I have no idea why you even qualified it in your example, except to demonstrate a somewhat pitying attitude towards the handicapped.

Anyway, my reluctance to use the term "slowed" is not because I have a problem with the term, but because I tend to choose my words carefully, so if I use the word "retard3d", I am likely referring to someone who has slow or limited intellectual development. And this is not "extremely unpleasant language which is likely to upset"; this is an example of using the correct term, which is not a pejorative in that it is meant to be disparaging. It's just calling a spade a spade.

Anyone upset by that word should really examine why they are upset by it. I'd guess that anyone upset by the use of a correct term is upset because they know someone who is slowed, and dislike to be reminded of such. However, those people need to get over it. Yes, it's a crummy situation, but never thinking about it doesn't make it go away. In the meantime, all that is being accomplished is that a useful word for describing a specific circumstance is being unfairly granted power as a pejorative, and then being replaced by more ambiguous and hollow phrases.

The same goes for "rape". If anyone is offended by the term, it's likely because they -or someone they know- was the victim of rape. Thats unfortunate, and I wouldn't wish it on anyone except for Rhonda Byrne (a seperate tirade). However, just as with "slowed", never speaking the word doesn't mean that it doesn't or hasn't happened, and sooner or later the victims of such will have to get over it. And I don't say that casually; I simply mean that attempting to re-shape the world so that a valid descriptor no longer exists to remind one of a negative experience is not a viable nor a reasonable option.

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin. The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

1st of all, excuse me from jumping into this thread but:

a) going of this 2 websites: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

b) For your information language is constantly evolving and word such as "rape" have acquired additional meanings apart from the original one in certain areas, I'm sorry if it bothers certain people but it is sometimes used by people that don't understand at all the "damage" they are/could be causing as they see it as a regular word, instead of jumping and accusing somebody of "misogyny" you would be better off trying to explain why that word can be considered offensive.

Yes, rape victims should grow thicker skin.

Also, it is hilarious to wish rape upon people.

Is there anything I missed?

No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

jgehunter wrote:

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin. The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

1st of all, excuse me from jumping into this thread but:

a) going of this 2 websites: http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/frequency-of-sexual-assault
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html

The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/sexual-assault-victims

LOLWUT

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).1

Do you know what assault is?

EDIT:

Or did you not look at all the statistics?

EDIT2:

What did the census link have to do with anything?

the_trooper wrote:[
Do you know what assault is?

Ok... I'll have to say it...I derped

I thought a sexual assault was the same as rape though, I'm genuinely sorry

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

Raatcharch wrote:

Fezman wrote:I don't agree that his is misogyny - remember that misogyny means hatred of women, and I'm not seeing any hate here.

The root words might directly translate to hatred of women, but everyone using the word knows that it means "bias against women" in our modern usage. Suggesting that misogyny means "hatred of women" is just being pedantic to win technicality points.

This message paid for by the Council to Improve Internet Arguments.

No. Look up misogyny in any dictionary. If you wanted to point out that something was biased against women without being misogynistic a word such as "sexist" is much more apposite. Misogyny has connotations of hatred. Anyway, it's hardly worth arguing about.

Moving on from that, to make this post more on-topic, I would guess that rather than setting out to offend PP probably hoped that this might be adopted by the fanbase as a kind of informal tagline or players' catachphrase for their game with the hope of giving it a reputation for being fast-paced or aggressive or whatever. I'd still feel a faint sense of embarrassment if someone said it to me during a game, however.

helium42 wrote:Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Be in a room with a woman who's suffered that and some frat kid shouts "I just raped your ass!!!" in the middle of a game store. See how that works out. Yeah, she needs the thicker skin to deal with how she was violated.

Better yet, walk in to the hood and scream out a series of n-bombs and see how long you live. That word has developed multiple meanings after all too.

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

How about no? Feminism is about rights for women
.

the_trooper wrote:
There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin.

If you are going to insult people, please direct it to a specific person so that they can meet your feeble attempt at personal attacks.

the_trooper wrote:
The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

First, thats a load of croc. Second, i agree telling a woman you raped her might not be the best thing. But im also pretty sure no one has directed something like this at a woman while wargaming.

the_trooper wrote:
The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

Misogyny, really? You are deluding yourself if you think anyone here has aired any HATE towards women, you cant even point out what, and until you do everything you said is just groxpoop.

BTW the 1 in 6 data on that page says it's from 1998.

Just saying...

1 out of every 6 American women has been the victim of an attempted or completed rape in her lifetime (14.8% completed rape; 2.8% attempted rape).
17.7 million American women have been victims of attempted or completed rape.



These two facts only add up if there are approximately 100 million women in America.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

Follow Helium42 in the hood and tell me how well language evolves.

azazel the cat wrote:

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

What are the actual numbers? I have heard numbers as high as 1 in 4 women have suffered sexual assault. There are loads that go unreported, I am going to have to lean toward the 1 in 6 being true unless you can confirm otherwise.

I honestly don't see how misogyny doesn't apply. When men laugh about the inequality of women in a contemptuous way, how else can it be taken? (contemptuous is not the new dreadnought from FW).

Language can hurt. It can stir up emotion and it can really mess a person up. I can think of a couple of words than can really stir up emotion and should never be said in polite conversation. If you can't understand that, you have a lot to learn.


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Bla_Ze wrote:

the_trooper wrote:Also, for the barely literate in this thread, feminism is actually just a movement for equality between men and women.

How about no? Feminism is about rights for women
.

the_trooper wrote:
There is male privilege going on all around and if you can't see it, it's pretty much the same reason you are still a virgin.

If you are going to insult people, please direct it to a specific person so that they can meet your feeble attempt at personal attacks.

the_trooper wrote:
The other reason is because you scream rape at your opponents without understanding the rape statistics for women is something like 1 in 6 women have suffered sexual assault. Yep, talking about a violent act that brings up something she may have suffered is a big turn off!

First, thats a load of croc. Second, i agree telling a woman you raped her might not be the best thing. But im also pretty sure no one has directed something like this at a woman while wargaming.

the_trooper wrote:
The OP may be a bit up tight (or a successful troll) but there is a bunch of misogyny flowing in this thread.

Misogyny, really? You are deluding yourself if you think anyone here has aired any HATE towards women, you cant even point out what, and until you do everything you said is just groxpoop.

VIRGIN SPOTTED

azazel the cat wrote:

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

Skipped over most of the posts in this to respond with: It's only offensive if you let it offend you. That's why we still have people bothered by words these days; you pay attention and let it get to you. YOU are assigning the meaning. Get over it, and it's no longer a problem.

the_trooper wrote:Yes, rape victims should grow thicker skin.

Also, it is hilarious to wish rape upon people.

Is there anything I missed?

That you're a boor and someone may beat you to death one day?


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12thRonin wrote:

helium42 wrote:Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Be in a room with a woman who's suffered that and some frat kid shouts "I just raped your ass!!!" in the middle of a game store. See how that works out. Yeah, she needs the thicker skin to deal with how she was violated.

Better yet, walk in to the hood and scream out a series of n-bombs and see how long you live. That word has developed multiple meanings after all too.

Agreed.

the_trooper wrote:Language can hurt. It can stir up emotion and it can really mess a person up. I can think of a couple of words than can really stir up emotion and should never be said in polite conversation. If you can't understand that, you have a lot to learn.

I never said that language can't hurt. I simply said that language not designed to be insulting shouldn't hurt. There is a signifcant difference between calling a slowed person "slowed", and calling a black person a "n*****". The former is an accurate description, and the latter is a slur designed to hurt. Comparing these two terms is like comparing apples to cars.

the_trooper wrote:VIRGIN SPOTTED

Aren't you being a little hypocritical here? I mean, you are blatantly demonstrating that you consider "virgin" to be pejorative.

Frazzled wrote:
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

My wife doesn't particularly care, but then, as I said, she works in a heavily male oriented work environment where talking like that's not going to get you fired. She's become desensitized to many things civilians would consider "crossing the line".

You'd be surprised how often even military officers forget there's women around their work place these days. Seriously, the stuff I hear about what her co-workers say and talk about.

And don't get me started on the stuff they've been caught and witnessed doing in public(up to and including hitting women) and were excused/let go because they were military.

Frazzled wrote:I reject your reality and substitute my own.

And therein lies the problem: reality is not subjective.

However, I do appreciate you being quite obvious in your subtext that you live a very sheltered life.

Frazzled wrote:There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

My s/o and I are both feminists who believe that language only has the power that is ascribed to its message; it holds no power in and of itself. Saying a word like "f***" means nothing. Granted, there is a generation of people who believe in the censorship of language, and whom will use all types of arbitrary justifications to do so -manners being one example. However they are not concerned with language itself: they desire social control.

And they are losing.

EDIT: Also, your own attitude and belief that women need to be sheltered and protected from language will do more damage to women's rights than any misogyny could ever hope to do. So as women's freedoms and choices are slowly peeled back across the United States, I hope you recognize that it was allowed in part due to attitudes such as yours.

TheHarleqwin wrote:Skipped over most of the posts in this to respond with: It's only offensive if you let it offend you. That's why we still have people bothered by words these days; you pay attention and let it get to you. YOU are assigning the meaning. Get over it, and it's no longer a problem.

Try it at work. Tell me how it goes for you.

CorvidMP wrote:
Academic feminists reacted to a very real, and very damaging, devauling of the female that took place over millenia, with a counter reaction devaluing the male. It's left such a mark on our society that we can even mention our genitalia in a phrase with out it being supect. But just because what they reacted to was awful, does not mean that they, also, can't be just as awful.

Yep. One could call it misandry. I dont think it is quite that harsh, but performing the same sins to the sex that has dominated another for so long does not prove a point and is actually a devolution of feminism.

I do not apologize for my penis anymore than a female should apologize for her vagina.

Yet during Christmas I am supposed to listen to "Politically correct" songs because "Baby it's cold outside" is supposedly a fething rape song. Good lord.

As a poster said earlier, pick your battles. Because some battles raised do nothing more than cause a wider divide in an attempt to desexualize everything on the planet.

PP does not need to publish a statement for their page 5 statement.

Understand the context, THEN criticize the statement. Until then, it is much ado about nothing.

the_trooper wrote:
VIRGIN SPOTTED

Now i couldn't care less if you have had consensual sex in the missionary position, but you sound like a whiny little child.

Sexual relations or not, at least i can call you on your faulty statements.

Frazzled wrote:

TheHarleqwin wrote:Skipped over most of the posts in this to respond with: It's only offensive if you let it offend you. That's why we still have people bothered by words these days; you pay attention and let it get to you. YOU are assigning the meaning. Get over it, and it's no longer a problem.

Try it at work. Tell me how it goes for you.

Just an observation, but you seem to jump to conclusions quite often. My intention was to state that people are oversensitive because they're told things should bother them. I am NOT insinuating that I spout off slurs or anything of the sort and expect to get away with it. What I'm stating is that you give the word it's ability to offend you by choosing to let it do so.If someone insults me, all it does is point out that the person in question is obviously either stupid, or just a pathetic individual whom I have no desire to know. It doesn't go any farther than that.

Somebody says something to you, write them off. You don't need them. Why should their words bother you?

azazel the cat wrote:
My s/o and I are both feminists who believe that language only has the power that is ascribed to its message; it holds no power in and of itself. Saying a word like "f***" means nothing. Granted, there is a generation of people who believe in the censorship of language, and whom will use all types of arbitrary justifications to do so -manners being one example. However they are not concerned with language itself: they desire social control.

And they are losing.

It's apparently that neither of you have been or dealt with a rape victim. Consider yourself fortunate and her even more so. I doubt that you'd have this stance if you actually had any experience with what you're talking about.

I've read the first post, and about the last five posts, and skipped everything in-between. As a semicompetitive WM/H player I can confidently say that within the WM/H gameset, some of the most powerful figures are indeed women, and if you were to add up the 10 most powerful figures in-game, it's very likely that more than half (Haleys, Dennys, Old Witch, Harbinger, Saeryn, Lylith, Vayls) are female. Of those females, one is dead and the other is a near-immortal quasi-deific entity. One has died, but got better.

Based on the amount of pansification present in this thread thus far, the people complaining about Page 5 don't have the dice to game with these gals.

azazel the cat wrote: My s/o and I are both feminists who believe that language only has the power that is ascribed to its message; it holds no power in and of itself. Saying a word like "f***" means nothing. Granted, there is a generation of people who believe in the censorship of language, and whom will use all types of arbitrary justifications to do so -manners being one example. However they are not concerned with language itself: they desire social control.

And they are losing.

EDIT: Also, your own attitude and belief that women need to be sheltered and protected from language will do more damage to women's rights than any misogyny could ever hope to do. So as women's freedoms and choices are slowly peeled back across the United States, I hope you recognize that it was allowed in part due to attitudes such as yours.

I wholeheartedly agree with your statements regarding censorship, and though I dislike when people label themselves as supporters of any particular special interest group, I also agree with your statement regarding the sheltering of women. It's unfortunate that there's a large number of people who claim they're for equality, but still hold to divisive thoughts and old-fashioned notions that they misguidedly think of as progressive. As you've stated, the damage done there is worse than any casual use of a bleeding idiom like "play like you've got a pair".

Deadnight wrote:

i dont think its anything of the kind. I think you're taking things too far, and too literally. that article of yours is scary, and ridiculously over the top. This political correctness garbage wasnt funny 10 years ago, and its certainly not funny now. ISeriously, i think its as dangerous to say that "man up" and "you're the man" are bad things, as you imply here. There is already a crisis of masculinity out there. too many guys are afraid of being guys, and dont know how. too many young lads out there go through a lot of mental torment over what are perfectly natural thoughts and impulses. If you ask me, the last generation of pro-feminist dogma has pushed things too far the other way. It almost feels like "being a guy" is a bad thing. And before you ask, I am not an overly aggressive jock. Im a normal guy. guy friends, girl friends. gay, straight, and strange. I have healthy relationships with both sexes, and firmly believe not in the superiority of one sex over another, but that evolution crafted us to work together and bring different strengths and skills to life's hurdles.
I feel what you've said is dangerous, and symptomatic of a very dangeous and negative attitude. Masculinity is (as you've done here) marginalised, ridiculed and looked down upon. Why? Apparently, its not good enough. you know, its somehow bad to be a guy, and think guy thoughts, and to want to do guy things.... *sigh* A ong time ago, i rebelled against that notion. No, you dont need to be a jerk about being male. YOu dont have to go over the top. But you know what? Its 3 million years of evolution, hormones and wiring that are guiding us. Its not good. Or bad. Good and Bad literally have nothing to do with it. And you know what? Its OK to want to watch "the game". Its OK to enjoy juvenile toilet humour. Its OK to have a ridiculously high sex drive. Its OK to enjoy testosterone fuelled aggressive sports like Rugby and Boxing. Its OK to think she has a nice butt. Its OK to have a Mancave", where you can hide from the world. Its OK to have moments where you shave with a rock, wrestle grizzlies, and punch trees. Its OK to be "a guy". Despite what the PC brigade says, none of that stops you being a well adjusted, stable member of society capable of a good work ethic, honest and valued morals, and the ability to maintain healthy relathionships with the opposite (or the same) sex.


here is page 5.

1) Thou Shalt Not Whine. seriously, more 40k players should take this to heart. there is an internet joke out there that a group of 40k players is called a whine. Look at the GeeDub general discussion page on any 40k page. the constant moaning, complaining and whining ruins the game for me.
2) Come Heavy Or Don't Come At All plat the best game you can. Be aggressive, bring your best, bring your A game, and throw down. thats the ultimate respect you can give me as a friend and opponent.
3) Give As Good As You Get self explanitory. go down fighting. dont wimp out. Be as good as you can be. Play the best players, and constatly seek to up your game.
4) Win Graciously And Lose Valiantly. seems a mighty fine ethos.
5) Page 5 Is Not An Excuse the crux of the matter. anyone using page 5 as an excuse to be a jerk, quite simply, is a jerk. and they were jerks before page 5 came along. doing what he's doing completely misses the point of page 5. to be honest, i dont see how any of that can be taken to encourage anything other than a good attitude towards your opponents.

seriously people. this is what Page 5 is all about. Its about making it the best game possible for you and your opponents. Its nothing but a positive attitude to bring to your games, and one that IMO, if more people had, would make this a bigger and better hobby.

HEY OP READ PAGE 5!!! Please, for the love of Pie!!!

It just takes one thin skinned person to ruin the fun that can be had. This whole thing about Mysogyny, is utterly crippling men nowadays. My father raised me to be a man. I open doors for women and I get told off, I hold my wife's chair for her and some lady give me a dirty look, What the feth happened? You show respect to women, and it's Misogyny. You treat Women like crap and it's Mysogyny. Are you kidding me? This also destroys the ability to build comraderie within groups. Because when everyone is afraid to say the wrong thing, no trust can be built. This has programmed the people of this world to be sheeple. Easily controlled with as little as false moral outrage. Maybe that's what the OPs true intentions are?

You know what though, I'm an Ork player and I maybe thickheaded like my Boyz. We only know how to play Orky and that is the epitome of Page 5. So if "Play like you have a pair" offends then I say "Fight like an Ork!!!"

Orkz is made fer' two fings! Fightin', and winnin'!

12thRonin wrote:

helium42 wrote:Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Be in a room with a woman who's suffered that and some frat kid shouts "I just raped your ass!!!" in the middle of a game store. See how that works out. Yeah, she needs the thicker skin to deal with how she was violated.

Better yet, walk in to the hood and scream out a series of n-bombs and see how long you live. That word has developed multiple meanings after all too.

There are obviously times to use and not use language of this sort. I doubt you'll find a rape victim's counseling group meeting at your FLGS, so as long as you know your opponent, it should be a pretty safe place to do a little trash talking of that nature.

UsdiThunder wrote:
Orkz is made fer' two fings! Fightin', and winnin'!

An' teknikully, dey'z wiffout gender!

Frazzled wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

Frazzled has manners all right. Manners enough to make a blanket statement calling everybody who has used the term rape in the context of wiping out your opponent as slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything.

As an employer, I can tell you that I know when, where, and to whom to speak to in a professional manner, and when, where, and to whom to speak to in a more relaxed and 'blue' manner. The world is not a black and white place Frazzled. Open your eyes.

TheHarleqwin wrote:
An' teknikully, dey'z wiffout gender!

"The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude. ~by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher"

Maybe we should strive to be more like this. There is no bias, everything is achieved through hard results. The best is at the top and the worst is at the squig farm. No Political Correctness, no BS Politics, no Hurt feelings; just hurt jaws, krumped 'eads, and true equality.

brettz123 wrote:

Feldenglas wrote:Yes, I meant rape. I censored it voluntarily because I've seen the word censored in WoW, wasn't sure what the standards were here, and decided to err on the side of caution.

So anyway, thanks for the input. It's been educational, and I'm guessing I would have loved this game when I was 15.

Hmmmmmm....... I was originally a little bit on your side but I think you just might be taking this a little too seriously (and by a little I mean a lot). You are telling me you are ok playing a game (40k in this case) that routinely touches on mass genocide, deamonic corruption, and essentially whose only female models are sexed up nuns in brasiers but somehow a single sentence on one page of a rulebook somehow offends you this much that you think you might have enjoyed the game when you were a pimply faced immature kid?

Interesting to sat the least.

Interesting is one way to put it.

Overtly insulting is another, likely more accurate, way of describing it.

Rape, "Slowed", N-Word are just a few in a long line of words used to abuse and demean people. I agree that there should be no place in a social setting where the casual use of those words should be allowed.

But when did saying "play like you have a pair " enter the same catagory?

helium42 wrote:

12thRonin wrote:

helium42 wrote:Nobody is trivializing rape. Language constantly evolves and rape is a term that has developed multiple meanings, like so many other words. Some people need to really work on having a thicker skin if the mere mention of a word in certain context can set them off.

Be in a room with a woman who's suffered that and some frat kid shouts "I just raped your ass!!!" in the middle of a game store. See how that works out. Yeah, she needs the thicker skin to deal with how she was violated.

Better yet, walk in to the hood and scream out a series of n-bombs and see how long you live. That word has developed multiple meanings after all too.

There are obviously times to use and not use language of this sort. I doubt you'll find a rape victim's counseling group meeting at your FLGS, so as long as you know your opponent, it should be a pretty safe place to do a little trash talking of that nature.

Do you know everyone in the room including the wife of the guy on the table beside you who was raped by her uncle when she was 4?

What about the random person in the store who came in looking for something who happened to have his mother raped and killed in a parking lot?

You go around shouting n*****s at your store when no-ones around?

Actually "slowed" is a perfectly acceptable way of calling certain people with certain special circumstances, as long as it is not used as an insult.

I never said shelter women. I won't bother you with my background as it is not pertinent to this conversation.

Any reasonable human being is a feminist.

Also, I get called out for beating around the bush on insults then I directly insult and people get upset. Now think about it.

Electro wrote:As if to throw fuel on the fire, I think some people need to look up the meaning of misogyny. That is some very heavy accusations over a simple phrase, a phrase we know what it means.

The implication is to play in an aggressive way, using the stereotype of men being aggressive. Perhaps you should consider that equally men could get upset over the idea that you are not a real man unless you are hyper aggressive.

If you want to get het up about something look in to how Women/Girls are treated going on to games stores.

Look at how some of the guys that stare in the stores are treated by girls at school, you might begin to understand where the "stand-off-and-gaze-at-what-will-never-speak-to-you" instinct comes from. Not a justification, but a reason mind you. You cannot expect a dog who is beaten every time it approaches a water bowl, to keep going to the water bowl. So why would you expect a young boy or girl, who is harassed, insulted, demeaned, and belittled every time they tried to approach a social relationship in grade school, to some how magically manifest socially acceptable and adequate behavior? THAT'S just silly to me! So what should you do? Point and laugh at the loser, virgin kid in the corner? Or befriend the kid and try and give him a friend with which to develop said lacking skills?

Think about THAT dakka, this is MUCH more important than the OP picking at the intent of a simple phrase that means "play aggressively," and whether or not she or he is overly sensitive or silly.

TheHarleqwin wrote:I wholeheartedly agree with your statements regarding censorship, and though I dislike when people label themselves as supporters of any particular special interest group, I also agree with your statement regarding the sheltering of women. It's unfortunate that there's a large number of people who claim they're for equality, but still hold to divisive thoughts and old-fashioned notions that they misguidedly think of as progressive. As you've stated, the damage done there is worse than any casual use of a bleeding idiom like "play like you've got a pair".

50% of the population isn't a special interest group, and by your statements it sounds like you are a feminist as well. (feminism = equal rights, nothing more, nothing less)

UsdiThunder wrote:Rape, "Slowed", N-Word are just a few in a long line of words used to abuse and demean people. I agree that there should be no place in a social setting where the casual use of those words should be allowed.

But when did saying "play like you have a pair " enter the same catagory?

When did "slowed", "rape" and the "N-word" ever enter the same category?

jgehunter wrote:Actually "slowed" is a perfectly acceptable way of calling certain people with certain special circumstances, as long as it is not used as an insult.

Exactly. Thank you.

Misogynistic or not, Sorscha will still kick your sorry ass.

UsdiThunder wrote:Rape, "Slowed", N-Word are just a few in a long line of words used to abuse and demean people. I agree that there should be no place in a social setting where the casual use of those words should be allowed.

But when did saying "play like you have a pair " enter the same catagory?

Wait, rape is a word used to demean people?

Do you know everyone in the room including the wife of the guy on the table beside you who was raped by her uncle when she was 4?

What about the random person in the store who came in looking for something who happened to have his mother raped and killed in a parking lot?

You go around shouting n*****s at your store when no-ones around?

I don't know everyone at the store all the time. I do know that if somebody were to take offense to something I said, I'd apologize and watch what I said after that. But you're implying that I now have to worry about offending somebody that knows a person who has been raped? Where does this word police stuff end?

I still fail to see how yelling the 'N' word is anywhere near like saying rape. One word unfairly disparages an entire race of people, the other is a verb describing a violent sexual act.

TheHarleqwin wrote:... and though I dislike when people label themselves as supporters of any particular special interest group, ... It's unfortunate that there's a large number of people who claim they're for equality, but still hold to divisive thoughts and old-fashioned notions that they misguidedly think of as progressive. As you've stated, the damage done there is worse than any casual use of a bleeding idiom like "play like you've got a pair".

This is like African Americans who believe that the Mexican population is riding the success of the Black rights campaign.

The phrase honestly is not used to attack women and it has no intention of offending. Throwing in a few buzzwords like "Gender politics" (Imagine my saying it with quote fingers and a sarcastic tense on gender) doesn't make OP knowledgeable or even approachable on the subject.
Everyone needs to take a moment, sit down and stop thinking about everything like it's an insult. Not everything is an insult and not everything should be able to insult anyone.

My wallet is black. That doesn't make me a racist.

Feldenglas wrote:Hey Dok, thanks for the question, and I appreciate your tone of genuine interest.

I don't believe that PP's statement is against women, nor do I believe that they don't want women playing their games. What I suspect is that the statement was written with the best of intentions to create a specific attitude and culture around their game, but that they just didn't consider the possible gender implications. Lack of this kind of thought or consideration can be construed as casual misogyny (incidentally, here's a decent article if it helps: http://www.diamondbackonline.com/opinion/the-casual-stain-on-society-1.2709376 ))

It would be nice to know that Privateer was aware of it, and if they made a statement to that effect it would be fantastic. As a leading company in our hobby community, they have a tremendous amount of influence over the culture. Like I said, I do not believe that Privateer is anti-woman, nor do I think they should change their slogan.

I don't think terms like "man up" or "You're the man" are offensive necessarily, but look what they imply. They both portray manliness and masculinity as something positive and desirable, and both refer to assuming an attitude or expression of general maleness. "Play like you've got a pair", while also ascribing positive traits to males, does make that masculinity somewhat inaccessible by implication that it is inherently anatomical.

I don't think any of this is insurmountable. It just needs to be talked about.

That's where I have a problem with what you're saying. As far as I'm concerned manliness and masculinity are desirable traits for myself. Does that mean that PP is marketing specifically towards men with that slogan? Perhaps. Does that mean that you shouldn't use their product because they are marketing towards a certain section of the population? That's really up to you.

I do find your assertion that you would've liked the game when you were 15 pretty ridiculous though. You are (in my opinion) going far over the top in describing this statement as misogyny and then you turn around the next day and discriminate against the player base by basically calling them immature? So, I have to come to the conclusion that either you were trolling or that you have no ability to think outside your view point.


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Scipio Africanus wrote:
My wallet is black. That doesn't make me a racist.

My wallet has a bear on it. That makes me awesome!

People who get offended easily and read too far into everything can drag down any social groups they join. Probably a good idea to not get involved with PP games.


Also, this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wva3qypGPvA

helium42 wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

azazel the cat wrote:

jgehunter wrote:The actual percentage of women's raped is of 0.001 still 0.001 more than it should be but nowhere near the 1 in 6 you were talking about.

Those numbers are not accurate. Keep in mind that this particular event has a massive dark figure associated with it, and it is much higher than you think. However, it's not 1 in 6.

Frazzled wrote:No. Its only developed multiple meanings among slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything (teenagers I am looking at you). Make such asinine statements at work and, well you won't be working.

Your condescension is of a flavour that usually only comes from people who believe that mother-knows-best by virtue of nothing other than that they have children. So you are either trolling very, very well or else you are blindingly ignorant of how language evolves.

I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

Frazzled has manners all right. Manners enough to make a blanket statement calling everybody who has used the term rape in the context of wiping out your opponent as slathering mouthbreathers who don't have a clue about common courtesy, manners, or pretty much anything.

As an employer, I can tell you that I know when, where, and to whom to speak to in a professional manner, and when, where, and to whom to speak to in a more relaxed and 'blue' manner. The world is not a black and white place Frazzled. Open your eyes.

Mine are quite open. I've seen what happens when people make stupid statements in Real Life (TM).


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UsdiThunder wrote:Rape, "Slowed", N-Word are just a few in a long line of words used to abuse and demean people. I agree that there should be no place in a social setting where the casual use of those words should be allowed.

But when did saying "play like you have a pair " enter the same catagory?

No, not at all.

Eidolon wrote:People who get offended easily and read too far into everything can drag down any social groups they join. Probably a good idea to not get involved with PP games.


Also, this;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wva3qypGPvA

The phrase "balls to the wall", which is actually an old pilot's term, wherein the throttle stick would be pushed all the way to the wall of the cockpit. It's akin to "pedal to the metal", and has nothing to do with testicles.

EDIT: However, that man is hilarious, whether that was staged or not.

Frazzled wrote:
I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

There's a whole world of difference between conduct between an employer and a boss, and conduct between friends or partners.

And please don't assume that gender has anything to do with this, as though women are, by product of their gender, a literal fairer, delicate, easily-offended sex when it comes to matters like this. I know there are many women who are, but, I think as this thread shows, many men are too. However, I find the notion that I, as a woman, am liable to be offended by "such language" because I am a woman, pretty offensive in and of itself - at least more than if someone made a dirty joke in my presence. I am very much on the "anything goes" side when it comes to comedy and banter between friends.

TheSinheizer wrote:

There's a whole world of difference between conduct between an employer and a boss, and conduct between friends or partners.

And please don't assume that gender has anything to do with this, as though women are, by product of their gender, a literal fairer, delicate, easily-offended sex when it comes to matters like this. I know there are many women who are, but, I think as this thread shows, many men are too. However, I find the notion that I, as a woman, am liable to be offended by "such language" because I am a woman, pretty offensive in and of itself - at least more than if someone made a dirty joke in my presence. I am very much on the "anything goes" side when it comes to comedy and banter between friends.

Nice to see someone talking sense!

My girlfriend looked at this thread and just shook her head sadly at how pointless the whole discussion was.

TheSinheizer wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
I reject your reality and substitute my own. There is an option #3: I have manners. As an employer I can promise you that such language would have you terminated on the spot.
What do your wives, GFs, or sisters think of such language?

There's a whole world of difference between conduct between an employer and a boss, and conduct between friends or partners.

And please don't assume that gender has anything to do with this, as though women are, by product of their gender, a literal fairer, delicate, easily-offended sex when it comes to matters like this. I know there are many women who are, but, I think as this thread shows, many men are too. However, I find the notion that I, as a woman, am liable to be offended by "such language" because I am a woman, pretty offensive in and of itself - at least more than if someone made a dirty joke in my presence. I am very much on the "anything goes" side when it comes to comedy and banter between friends.

I understand that you find it offensive, just as most men find themselves offended by their supposed stereotypical traits.

In the end, the only thing we can blame is the gender roles present in our society. It wont likely change either. We're all caught in a cult called society, and it wont let us go easily.

the_trooper wrote:I never said shelter women. I won't bother you with my background as it is not pertinent to this conversation.

Any reasonable human being is a feminist.

Also, I get called out for beating around the bush on insults then I directly insult and people get upset. Now think about it.

I'm not a feminist in the modern sense, I just believe that women and men should have the same rights. Men and woman are mentally and physically different and as such, are not equal.
This whole "men and women are equal" is total crap, because we're not. That's why mostly men are firefighters and soldiers, as they are much stronger then women. And inb4 people tell me about one girl that was somehow stronger. Well cool beans cuzz, that's what we call an exception. Plus it's anecdotal.

Modern feminism is total bullcrap and is all about a free pat on the ass and getting free stuff.

The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.

:edit: Btw, the figures about 1 in 6 women getting raped are total bull as well. I've heard of enough girls who get wasted, regret sleeping with said dude, and then call it "rape" so that they can justify themselves. So yeah, maybe 1 in 6 women regret getting wasted and sleeping with some dude.

Bla_Ze and Vladsimpaler -

I agree wholeheartedly with you both.

And as for the line: "Any reasonable human being is a feminist"... No, just... no.

Concentrating solely on one gender makes absolutely no reasonable sense whatsoever to me.

Skippy wrote:

TheSinheizer wrote:

There's a whole world of difference between conduct between an employer and a boss, and conduct between friends or partners.

And please don't assume that gender has anything to do with this, as though women are, by product of their gender, a literal fairer, delicate, easily-offended sex when it comes to matters like this. I know there are many women who are, but, I think as this thread shows, many men are too. However, I find the notion that I, as a woman, am liable to be offended by "such language" because I am a woman, pretty offensive in and of itself - at least more than if someone made a dirty joke in my presence. I am very much on the "anything goes" side when it comes to comedy and banter between friends.

Nice to see someone talking sense!

My girlfriend looked at this thread and just shook her head sadly at how pointless the whole discussion was.

Wait, whats worse, shaking your head about how sad this discussion is or thinking ANY discussion on the intranetz is not, in the end, sad?

Vladsimpaler wrote:The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.

Like myself, I imagine most people here are not actually 'offended' by these words, they just think it's stupid. Actually I don't care about the 'play like you've got a pair' thing but I do care about shouting about rape because I think it's very insensitive and far more likely to cause upset. I'm not actually offended myself, I just think it's stupid and inappropriate. It is possible to criticise someone's behaviour without being actually offended by it. But either way, thinking something is inappropriate to shout about doesn't not mean you are 'emasculated' or that it's necessarily being done to attract women. Most of us actually have a women and still think it's inappropriate to act like a douche.

Oddly enough I think might even be the other way around, it's the people who think it's okay to make mock threats of rape in relation to wargames that are more likely to be single being young and immature, many of those who are critical of it are older with partners and kids.

:edit: Btw, the figures about 1 in 6 women getting raped are total bull as well. I've heard of enough girls who get wasted, regret sleeping with said dude, and then call it "rape" so that they can justify themselves. So yeah, maybe 1 in 6 women regret getting wasted and sleeping with some dude.

Any argument you try to make is undone with this seemingly misogynistic nonsense. Oh no, that many women couldn't possibly be raped, they must be getting drunk and sleeping around, that *must* be the explanation. You don't have any proof of this claim, you just seek to dismiss facts that could prove awkward if you are to ignore any concerns that you might actually upset a rape victim by shouting about it, and trying to continue with the earlier "men are being offended just to show off to women" argument.

How many of the current rape statistics are really formed by women simply getting drunk and trying to excuse themselves do you suppose? I imagine the answer will be quite revealing.

Since the thread have now leveled into a more open discussion and less holy-feminist crusade mode i feel open to share some thoughts on Feminism.

And yes i know any man stupid enough venture into these outlawed subjects paint a kick-here target on his genitalia. I just cant help myself

I've come to notice any man questioning feminism or contradicting feminist arguments is irrevocably labeled misogynist, male chauvinist or something similar.

If i am to be labled misogynist for challenging feminists so be it, i refuse to be some kind of emasculated white knight that cannot contend women becuase they are a fragile glass ornament.

Feninism lost its real meaing long ago when its biased
supporters distanced themselves from equality and furthered the pursuit for womens rights only.

This became something of a rant, i had plenty more to say but i think its better to stop so i can get out of this big hole i just dug

Howard A Treesong wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.

Like myself, I imagine most people here are not actually 'offended' by these words, they just think it's stupid. Actually I don't care about the 'play like you've got a pair' thing but I do care about shouting about rape because I think it's very insensitive and far more likely to cause upset. I'm not actually offended myself, I just think it's stupid and inappropriate. It is possible to criticise someone's behaviour without being actually offended by it. But either way, thinking something is inappropriate to shout about doesn't not mean you are 'emasculated' or that it's necessarily being done to attract women. Most of us actually have a women and still think it's inappropriate to act like a douche.

Oddly enough I think might even be the other way around, it's the people who think it's okay to make mock threats of rape in relation to wargames that are more likely to be single being young and immature, many of those who are critical of it are older with partners and kids.

I understand that you find rape to be insensitive, but you're sort of going off on a tangent and as such I'm not going to respond to it. I'm talking about how grown men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair". Immature? Yeah sure, if you say so. I don't think it is, it's just a term. Offensive? Not even in the slightest.

People (some of whom are in this very thread) who get offended by that term that PP has on Page 5 should stop posting and go live in a feminist hippy commune.

:edit: Btw, the figures about 1 in 6 women getting raped are total bull as well. I've heard of enough girls who get wasted, regret sleeping with said dude, and then call it "rape" so that they can justify themselves. So yeah, maybe 1 in 6 women regret getting wasted and sleeping with some dude.

Any argument you try to make is undone with this seemingly misogynistic nonsense. Oh no, that many women couldn't possibly be raped, they must be getting drunk and sleeping around, that *must* be the explanation. You don't have any proof of this claim, you just seek to dismiss facts that could prove awkward if you are to ignore any concerns that you might actually upset a rape victim by shouting about it, and trying to continue with the earlier "men are being offended just to show off to women" argument.

How many of the current rape statistics are really formed by women simply getting drunk and trying to excuse themselves do you suppose? I imagine the answer will be quite revealing.

I do have some problems with the actual statistic. I currently attend university in Austin, which has one of the largest college populations in the world. I've had several friends be falsely accused of rape, when all they did is have sex with a girl who was drunk. Of course, so was the guy. This isn't rape. They are both drunk and have beer goggles and all of that. Also, in almost every single relationship I've been in, at some point the girl says she was raped. Then I did some investigating with friends and it turned out that they had had sex with some dude and regretted it afterward. After talking with a female friend of mine, she said that actual rape is the most under-reported because girls who are actually raped are afraid that they'll just be considered liars.

I abhor that many women who are 25 and younger use it as a get-out-of-jail free card, when of course rape is a bad thing. If a woman is ACTUALLY raped, then yes something should be done about it. But here's the deal: in the U.S., you're innocent until proven guilty. For rape, it's always the opposite which is disgusting to me.
I'm a college male. So yes a lot of my facts are anecdotal but when you see the same patterns keep coming up...you know that there's an issue there. But to call me misogynistic because I'm questioning a statistic? Please spare me.

Tl;dr: Actual, legitimate rape is under-reported because women (and men) are afraid that they will be looked at as liars because of women (and men) who over-report rape that is really not rape.

:edit: Thought that this was interesting. http://digitalcommons.lmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2216&context=llr
It's fairly long but the cliff notes version is that the statistics made by feminist groups are over-exaggerated.

Kind Regards,
Vladsimpaler

Vladsimpaler wrote:The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.
.

(looks at the stadium sized pile of firearms and ammo he has) yea....ok....

No its a sign we're not all working at the emotional level of derp derp 13 year old derp derp. How about you?

EDIT, oh wait eveidently you're an 18 year old frat boy longhorn wannabee. That explains so much. Jeez I have underwear older than you.

Gig 'Em!

Bla_Ze wrote:Feminism lost its real meaning long ago when its biased supporters distanced themselves from equality and furthered the pursuit for women's rights only.

I'll just repeat that bit of truth and leave that right there...

Vladsimpaler wrote:But to call me misogynistic because I'm questioning a statistic? Please spare me.

It wasn't the act of questioning of the statistic, it was the manner in which you did so. But you knew that.

Frazzled wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.
.

(looks at the stadium sized pile of firearms and ammo he has) yea....ok....

No its a sign we're not all working at the emotional level of derp derp 13 year old derp derp. How about you?

EDIT, oh wait eveidently you're an 18 year old frat boy longhorn wannabee. That explains so much. Jeez I have underwear older than you.

Gig 'Em!

Lmao, those have to be some of the weakest insults I've ever heard in my entire life. Also, I actually don't go to UT (there's more than one university in Austin, but it's a lot smaller), so that's a swing-and-a-miss for you. You also strike me as one of those "Obama iz a muzlim n he ain't even from Amurika" types so I will try and use small words.

Lots o' failed insults or ones that make no sense since you have no idea who I am, failure must be a pretty common thread in your life, eh?

Btw if mods have a problem with this, lemme know.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.
.

(looks at the stadium sized pile of firearms and ammo he has) yea....ok....

No its a sign we're not all working at the emotional level of derp derp 13 year old derp derp. How about you?

EDIT, oh wait eveidently you're an 18 year old frat boy longhorn wannabee. That explains so much. Jeez I have underwear older than you.

Gig 'Em!

Lmao, those have to be some of the weakest insults I've ever heard in my entire life. Also, I actually don't go to UT (there's more than one university in Austin, but it's a lot smaller), so that's a swing-and-a-miss for you. You also strike me as one of those "Obama iz a muzlim n he ain't even from Amurika" types so I will try and use small words.

Lots o' failed insults or ones that make no sense since you have no idea who I am, failure must be a pretty common thread in your life, eh?

Btw if mods have a problem with this, lemme know.

Hey I'm not the one who self avowedly hangs out with a crowd that routinely gets accused of rape. My mistake in thinking you were a UT frat boy.

Frazzled wrote:
Hey I'm not the one who self avowedly hangs out with a crowd that routinely gets accused of rape. My mistake in thinking you were a UT frat boy.

It's not something I'm familiar with in my college years.

TheSinheizer wrote:And as for the line: "Any reasonable human being is a feminist"... No, just... no.

I was going to take issue with that statement this morning, but I thought I'd best go check the definition of the word before doing so - strangely, it didn't mean what I thought it meant:

dictionary.com wrote:Feminism - noun
1. the doctrine advocating social, political, and all other rights of women equal to those of men.
2. ( sometimes initial capital letter ) an organized movement for the attainment of such rights for women.
3. feminine character.

However, I do think that what Bla_Ze says below (apart from the spelling errors) is fairly accurate.

Bla_Ze wrote:Feninism lost its real meaing long ago when its biased supporters distanced themselves from equality and furthered the pursuit for womens rights only.

Short version: I'm in favour of equality, but don't want to see the sort of "affirmative action" that ends up with you being heavily penalised for being born the wrong gender/ethnicity.

Frazzled wrote:

Wait, whats worse, shaking your head about how sad this discussion is or thinking ANY discussion on the intranetz is not, in the end, sad?

What a strange way to look at the world....

Skippy wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Wait, whats worse, shaking your head about how sad this discussion is or thinking ANY discussion on the intranetz is not, in the end, sad?

What a strange way to look at the world....

Its called being around before personal computers, let alone the internet, existed.

Frazzled wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:The fact that men are getting offended by the term "play like you've got a pair" is a sure sign that American and British societies are slowly becoming emasculated. Stop trying to get offended in the hope that you'll attract women, because it doesn't work.
.

(looks at the stadium sized pile of firearms and ammo he has) yea....ok....

No its a sign we're not all working at the emotional level of derp derp 13 year old derp derp. How about you?

EDIT, oh wait eveidently you're an 18 year old frat boy longhorn wannabee. That explains so much. Jeez I have underwear older than you.

Gig 'Em!

Lmao, those have to be some of the weakest insults I've ever heard in my entire life. Also, I actually don't go to UT (there's more than one university in Austin, but it's a lot smaller), so that's a swing-and-a-miss for you. You also strike me as one of those "Obama iz a muzlim n he ain't even from Amurika" types so I will try and use small words.

Lots o' failed insults or ones that make no sense since you have no idea who I am, failure must be a pretty common thread in your life, eh?

Btw if mods have a problem with this, lemme know.

Hey I'm not the one who self avowedly hangs out with a crowd that routinely gets accused of rape. My mistake in thinking you were a UT frat boy.

Hahaha wow, this is exactly what I mean about you being guilty until proven innocent of rape. I don't hang out with a "bad" crowd at all. And this is why jumping to conclusions often doesn't work.

Wow, you're both horribly at insults.

(Which was the point of frazzled's post, btw.)

I fail to see the issue here?

Most girls I've met have a pair...

Frazzled wrote:

Wait, whats worse, shaking your head about how sad this discussion is or thinking ANY discussion on the intranetz is not, in the end, sad?


Its called being around before personal computers, let alone the internet, existed.

You could alwasy forsake the internet and do more productive things with your free time.

You post rather frequently on Dakka frazz for a Luddite...

malfred wrote:Wow, you're both horribly at insults.

(Which was the point of frazzled's post, btw.)

Horribly
Horribly
Horribly
Horribly
Horribly

TheSinheizer wrote:Bla_Ze and Vladsimpaler -

I agree wholeheartedly with you both.

And as for the line: "Any reasonable human being is a feminist"... No, just... no.

Concentrating solely on one gender makes absolutely no reasonable sense whatsoever to me.

THANK you. That's exactly why I hate the term, and why I'm bothered by people who identify with it regardless of their intentions. The hell with feminism, or the secular groups for individual ethnic struggles. What ever happened to trying to progress human rights as a whole? Makes more sense to me than standing up for one group.

So no, I don't stand for feminism (which has become synonymous with misandry in the current day), I stand for equality.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

malfred wrote:Wow, you're both horribly at insults.

(Which was the point of frazzled's post, btw.)

Horribly
Horribly
Horribly
Horribly
Horribly

Yessir. Adverb in place of adjective. It happens.

malfred wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

malfred wrote:Wow, you're both horribly at insults.

(Which was the point of frazzled's post, btw.)

Horribly
Horribly
Horribly
Horribly
Horribly

Yessir. Adverb in place of adjective. It happens.

Whats adverb? I hayt math....

Hehehe, funny.

Back on topic.

malfred wrote:

Back on topic.

I think that stopped happening back on page 1.

I'm seriously thinking that dakka needs to have it's own page 5 post . Everytime a topic gets to 5 pages an auto post reading "post like you have a pair", hopefully that should cut down on the whining and name calling. though it is obviously offensive to women, i know everytime i hear a reference to a body part i don't own, a little piece of me dies.

Bullockist wrote:though it is obviously offensive to women

Not sure if that is a worry here in general...

Bullockist wrote:I'm seriously thinking that dakka needs to have it's own page 5 post . Everytime a topic gets to 5 pages an auto post reading "post like you have a pair", hopefully that should cut down on the whining and name calling. though it is obviously offensive to women, i know everytime i hear a reference to a body part i don't own, a little piece of me dies.

Agreed, although you can't say, objectively, that it is offensive to women. Nowhere does page 5 reference that they are talking about a body part, let alone one specific to males. Also, as it's been stated several times before in this thread, females have body parts that come in pairs too, most of which are more impressive than the "male pair".

MISANDRY! ....time for a new flame war!

So it begins.

Society is doomed when people deplore and boycott a tabletop wargame for being sexist.

There are such a huge number of reasons why this is all BS that I'm just dumbfounded. Even going on about feminism being horrible for not including the men is nuts. Let them get on with it, who cares?

'Babies die in Africa? Don't care, rollin' 2D6 for armour pen!'

'AIDS? LOL 2+ cover save from bolstered ruins and stealth.'

'Pope condones both the creation of babies that have no fate but death, AIDS and covers up institutional paedophilia? Bikes don't change toughness for ID lolololol'

'They printed a slogan that might make females feel ever so slightly less engaged in a tabletop wargame? Put the dice away Steve, nobodies bloody laughing now.'

If a clearly-not-literal-and-therefore-not-sexist slogan stops you playing a game, surely you would promptly kill yourself once a year when comic/sport/guilt relief came on TV.

the bible bashes women go yell at the one who wrote that hahahaha but no really dont think to much into any of the nerd games writing in the books, cause you gotta remember the average player is a male.

Davylove21 wrote:Society is doomed when people deplore and boycott a tabletop wargame for being sexist.

There are such a huge number of reasons why this is all BS that I'm just dumbfounded. Even going on about feminism being horrible for not including the men is nuts. Let them get on with it, who cares?

'Babies die in Africa? Don't care, rollin' 2D6 for armour pen!'

'AIDS? LOL 2+ cover save from bolstered ruins and stealth.'

'Pope condones both the creation of babies that have no fate but death, AIDS and covers up institutional paedophilia? Bikes don't change toughness for ID lolololol'

'They printed a slogan that might make females feel ever so slightly less engaged in a tabletop wargame? Put the dice away Steve, nobodies bloody laughing now.'

If a clearly-not-literal-and-therefore-not-sexist slogan stops you playing a game, surely you would promptly kill yourself once a year when comic/sport/guilt relief came on TV.

This, ffs guys, why are we seriously arguing over something this stupid? It's like Kony 2012 "i never cared about this issue until it showed up on my facebook that I browse on my ipad."

Perhaps you all need to....grow a pair

Brother Axel wrote:I fail to see the issue here?

Most girls I've met have a pair...

If girls have coconuts
and trex's eat coconuts.
Are girls a Trex's best friend?

Feldenglas wrote:Honestly, this slogan is keeping me away from WM/H, due to the implications of casual misogyny. Does Privateer ever address this? As a company, have they ever made a statement welcoming female players, or clarifying the fact that they're aware of the gender politics behind making this statement their system's core ethic?

It's 2012. I thought feminism has come a long way enough for women to understand that this isn't just a male dominated statement, or does PP have to say "Play like you found a sale!" to appeal to the cavewomen out there?

sorry if I missed something, but I read the original post and decided to reply. The dice mechanic in Warmachine uses a pair of dice so there is nothing mysogynistic about it. I think our modern society has become obsessed with finding goblins where there are none.

7/10, I give you points for quite a few bites.

http://www.adorableideas.com/images/AICT116.jpg

The pair. Now stop being silly.

xraytango wrote:sorry if I missed something, but I read the original post and decided to reply. The dice mechanic in Warmachine uses a pair of dice so there is nothing mysogynistic about it. I think our modern society has become obsessed with finding goblins where there are none.

Oh yeah? Then how do you explain why my socks keep going missing? Or my hose gets all tangled up? Clearly goblins are at work here, we just need to catch them in the act.

OP,


The paraphrase of play like you got a pair came from Mk 1. In case you missed it somewhere in the static-

PP was originally spouting itself as the anti GW game, where it became commonplace to sit back and shoot from behind cover. They came out of the gate with the phrase as a catchphrase, so you... uh.. buy models.

They retreated a bit when PP started attracting D bags and TFG typos, and then they came back in No Quarter, thier resident magazine ( The antithisis of WD, that actually has- content.)
and explined themselves much more thoroughly, especially after, across the board, players, and would be players came back with a general consensous that the "Page 5 mentality" brought out the D bag in all of us when it was used in its entirety.

I play occasionally, and have most of the factions strictly based off of the models. I have no love for some of the fanbase, and it is difficult to find consensous, except that most people who play the game KNOW what "Play Like You Got A Pair..." entials. If you can get it, try to find some of the "NO QUARTER" magazines of the past. They have discussed the topic ad nausium.

Some of your ... stuff... that you interjected into the OP and added posts gives me a WTF feeling on a few different levels, so I'm kinda wondering if your just trying to start something for nothing, Sorry, but thats just how it reads.

Don't let your misconceptions and some of that groupthink hold you back from checking out WM/Hordes. Most of the armies in Warmahordes female characters run the board. Females I know ike the Merc faction. They run Talion Charter, and the other one runs Cryx, or Rhulic mercs, because she likes the little guys.


Of course, you are entirly free to do what thou whilt.

Heres the quickstart and some snacks for your parusal.

http://privateerpress.com/warmachine/the-game

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?17232-Warmachine-Faction-Guides-MkII

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?38184-Hordes-Faction-Guides-MkII

http://privateerpressforums.com/showthread.php?33040-Introduction-To-The-Forums-And-Rules-Primer


Play like you got a pair.

htj wrote:Then how do you explain why my socks keep going missing?

Oh, that's not goblins.






That's Malfred.

Platuan4th wrote:

htj wrote:Then how do you explain why my socks keep going missing?

Oh, that's not goblins.






That's Malfred.

Oh lord... he can keep them then.

sensitive people confuse me