Somewhat inspired by the GK thread.

Short and to the point: I'm curious as to how BL fiction has treated the Sisters of Battle given their losing streak in GW fluff.

So aside from James Swallow's books (Hammer and Anvil, Faith and Fire) and the Red and the Black Audio drama - where else do people recall seeing a SoB ?

I read a little bit about them in the short story about the Flesh Tearers in the Heroes of the Space Marines book.

IIRC there is a graphic novel/comic featuring a sororitas called Daemonifuge.

Aye, Daemonifuge. It's not bad, either.

You can see a classic Sororitas army in "Grey Knights" ... and they win in the end! Personally I like this novel very much.

They have been in some of the Cain novels, in which he states hes negative opinion of them as he finds them too fanatical, however in the 6th book he haves a very good opinion of a senior sister that is also his colleague in the schola progenium. In that same book a number of sisters were also corrupted by the powers of chaos leader who was a follower of Slaanesh.
There is also one IG novel called "Redemption Corps" that i haven't red but i know that a regiment of elite storm troopers are sent to deal with the orks but when the SoB arrive they are again presented as yet another danger because of them being all over zealous and what not, again am not sure about this one as I have not red it.

Hmm - 1 win and 2 presentations as Minor Antagonists..

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Hmm - 1 win and 2 presentations as Minor Antagonists..

I wouldn't exactly call the antagonists, because they are depicted more in way that depicts them as an unknown element, for instance:

They are displayed as easily influenced, and as Cain says

Worst showings were Henry Zou (in Flesh and Iron) and Rob Sanders (REdemption Corps and Atlas infernal.) They show up in Legion of the Damned but Sanders actually seems to be treating them far better than they usually are treated. Aside from LotD they're basically written sa being jerks and total puppets of the Ecclesiarchy, although in LotD they're called upon to enact retribuion for violation of the Decree Passive.

There's also the Sisters on Armageddon in 'Helsreach', there's the Sororitas in 'Crossfire' (multiple appearances, even saving Caplurnia's butt from an assasination device.), a sister (or former one) in nightbringer, some in DAwn of War: Ascension (which wasn't a horrible novel all told.)

The only 'Sororitas-primary' books are James Swallow's novels which are fairly bad, but tends to portray them (generally) as far more sanctimonious than I imagine them to be. There was also the LEt the Galaxy Burn short Story featuring Sister Aescarion which was the best total. Aescarion also makes a return appearance in two Soul Drinkers novels (bleeding Chalice and Phalanx) which is perhaps one of the few consistently good things bout the books (although Aescarion being used to make Sarps look good in Phalanx was annoying.)

The Cain novels tend to vary. In several they aren't exactly good guys (but then again few priests, AdMch or non-IG are from Cain's POV so prejudice can be considered to be in effect here) but in 'Cain's Last Stand' we get (for him') a more 'heroic' soroitas type. I personally liked that one, although I know a number of people did not. *shrugs*

This is the most popular/significant BL book that stars the SoB If I recall:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faith-Sisters-Battle-James-Swallow/dp/1844162893

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:So aside from James Swallow's books (Hammer and Anvil, Faith and Fire) and the Red and the Black Audio drama - where else do people recall seeing a SoB ?

Harriticus wrote:This is the most popular/significant BL book that stars the SoB If I recall:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faith-Sisters-Battle-James-Swallow/dp/1844162893

Erm ... yeah

It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys, because they really aren't. They're agents of the Ecclesiarchy which means at best they are delusional, fanatical followers of an oppressive state sponsored religious organization whose sole purpose is the manipulation and oppression of the masses.

Just because they believe fanatically in the Emperor, and the Emperor was good, doesn't mean they themselves are good. Ultimately, the Sisters are going to be difficult to properly portray in the fluff. They have good intentions, but that's only because their values are so twisted that their definition of "good" is often quite bad. Besides, you know what they say the road to Hell is paved with.

For more secular writers, the Sisters are easy antagonists, or at least conflict-creating supporting characters for stories with irreligious protagonists. They can easily be written as fanatical, headstrong, stubborn, and narrow-minded because, well, they probably are. For authors writing the Space Marines, the Sisters can be easily written as delusional and annoying, since the Space Marines know that the Sisters' devotional worship is misguided and not in accordance to the Emperor's will. In this case, the Sisters will rarely be antagonists, because ultimately the Space Marines are unlikely to go to war with the Sisters directly, but they can be used to create tension due to their wildly differing objectives.

They are displayed as easily influenced

Yes, that is one of GW's many idiocies.


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Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys, because they really aren't.

Let's see...

-- Defenders of the weak and defenseless (as long as they're faithful, but that's most of the Imperium anyway), who gladly sacrifice themselves so civilians will not be corrupted or eaten; Elite soldiers who fight face to face with the worst enemies of the Imperium to defend it against the encroaching threats.

-- Expert physicians and surgeons who are practically worshiped as saints by the populace for their selfless and merciful devotion to medicine.

-- Scholars who catalogue and understand hte very concept of language so that they can unify the Imperium's many myriad cultures and understand what our enemies (and erstwhile allies) are saying.

-- Organizers who keep track of the lineage of Nobility, trying to prevent inbreeding, stop corruption, and keep noble houses from fighting in open warfare through political marriages, transactions, and etc.



Nope, nothing heroic here.

it's mostly GW's stupidity and the incompetence of the average BL author that prevents them from writing Sisters in a positive light. They aren't really that great of writers and they have very little imagination.

Melissia wrote:
-- Expert physicians and surgeons who are practically worshiped as saints by the populace for their selfless and merciful devotion to medicine.

-- Scholars who catalogue and understand hte very concept of language so that they can unify the Imperium's many myriad cultures and understand what our enemies (and erstwhile allies) are saying.

-- Organizers who keep track of the lineage of Nobility, trying to prevent inbreeding, stop corruption, and keep noble houses from fighting in open warfare through political marriages, transactions, and etc.

That's the thing they aren't just fighters the entire Adeptas Sororitas order is divided into little orders who do many things in many different ways, even if they have the most puritan women in the SoB the Sisters Dialogus have been portrayed as very radical and understanding of other cultures (In the codex for the Tau one of them speaks very highly of them, and I think there is the same situation in one of the Eldar codices but I'm not sure). And the Sisters Hospitaller are suppose to be one of the most compassionate and skilled healers in the galaxy. But most think of the as just the crazy Bolter- Bit**es.

You've described some followers of the Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition as well, lol. However, ultimately, those things sound heroic because you're spinning them n the best light possible.

How about "warriors of the Ecclessiarchy who occasionally defend those they believe to be weak and defenseless, but at other times oppress or murder those who actually are weak and defenseless, simply because their way of life doesn't conform to the vision of the Ecclessiarchy.

Scholars who catalog and understand the very concept and language so they can assist in the interrogation and torture of aliens and renegades.

Political wheelers and dealers who trace the lineages of noble houses in order to manipulate their political dealings and keep a close oversight in order ensure that they do not deviate from the vision of the Ecclessiarchy.

Doesn't sound so heroic when you realize that in addition to the things you said they do, they're also doing all of those things too. I think it would be hard to demonize the Sisters Hospitallar, but the other orders are just as morally dark gray as everyone else in the Imperium. Everything else is a facade.

Like I said, they're (at best) "delusional, fanatical followers of an oppressive state sponsored religious organization". The Sisters believe they are doing good. But they really aren't a lot of the time. But that's okay, there aren't really too many "good guys" in the Imperium anyway, so it isn't like that's a criticism.

But, the idea I was adding on to was why they get portrayed as antagonists or problematic elements in stories. And that's because it's very easy. The Ecclessiarchy is easily the most corrupt facet of the Imperium, Depicting the Sisters as unflinching, unbending agents of that agency will very quickly create friction in a story where the protagonists have different aims.

Look at their Third Edition Codex. It's called Codex: Witch Hunters, lol. There aren't exactly a lot of positive connotations that brings up in a historical context.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You've described some followers of the Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition as well, lol. However, ultimately, those things sound heroic because you're spinning them n the best light possible.

And this is somehow different from EVERY OTHER BLACK LIBRARY BOOK OUT THERE EVER, how again?

Psst: The answer is that it isn't.

Honestly your tirade against Sisters is nonsense. NOTHING in 40k is purely heroic with no bad sides. Ever.

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:You've described some followers of the Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition as well, lol. However, ultimately, those things sound heroic because you're spinning them n the best light possible.

And this is somehow different from EVERY OTHER BLACK LIBRARY BOOK OUT THERE EVER, how again?

Psst: The answer is that it isn't.

Honestly your tirade against Sisters is nonsense. NOTHING in 40k is purely heroic with no bad sides. Ever.

Um barely any books are like that...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

I was seeking more along the lines of effective,

I said this on another thread and i'll say it again (and what i'ma bout to say isn't even an original thought - its one that has been circulating for some time): Every faction has it day in the sun.

The Tyranids devour worlds. Chaos corrupts countless souls and drags the rest screaming into the warp. the Adeptus Astartes massacre their enemies and Xenos into the thousands. The Tau convert (whether peacefully or not) other species to their Greater Good. The Eldar plot and scheme and plan - sacrificing whole races to save the few. And the Necrons...well..everyone seems to be afraid of the Necrons as they march.

Heck, even the IG get their good on-screen time with untold number of deaths - but still an ability to hold the line.


And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Even the IG, who are literally walking cannon fodder at times, perform better than the SoB in fluff and fiction.

There's a word for that in real life - you know, when you purposely pull the rug from under a group again and again and again.

Edit - And may I add something addressed to everyone deigning to read this thread ?

Why does there seem to be this almost knee-jerk obsession amongst the folks invested into the various factions within the Imperium or the Tau or even the Eldar to debate the "goodness" of those factions?

Thank the Old Ones that Chaos, Tyranids, Orks, and Necron fans have bypassed this affliction.

Brother Thomas wrote:Um barely any books are like that...

Ciaphas Cain is like that for the Imperial Guard, and hell, even Gaunt's Ghosts depict the Imperial guard as winning every battle eventually, even if they take losses. Almost every Space Marine book ever written is like that for Space Marines, as well.

Games Workshop have specifically stated that bl books are basically written as propaganda.

Apparently, the new Soul Drinker's installment, "Phalanx" has some in it, though that's one of the few series I haven't started, and I didn't want to pick it up at the end like that. (Despite the idea of them being held at trial within the Imperial Fist's base being fairly cool.)

Lets not forget the cameo they had at the finale and near finale of Helsreach. Black Templars and Sisters of Battle- that's a lot of fanatical heretic hate balled up in one place!

As mentioned, the most evil I've seen is in "Flesh and Iron", generally they just die horribly

I've always felt the get a raw deal fluff wise. It isn't as if they are the only fanatics out there. People fall all over themselves over cool commissars shooting up people to scare them in to running in to a meat grinder... but the Sisters of Battle, they're just bonkers?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Why does there seem to be this almost knee-jerk obsession amongst the folks invested into the various factions within the Imperium or the Tau or even the Eldar to debate the "goodness" of those factions?

My point was only that they could be, quite easily, depicted as heroic. But they aren't because black library authors, with few exceptions, are incompetent hacks and / or just plain don't care. A good combination of both I think.

There was a bit of fluff in the CSM codex where a group of Night Lords attacked a training planet for them, then used the bones of the dead to summon thousands of daemons to kill the rest of the world.

Melissia wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Why does there seem to be this almost knee-jerk obsession amongst the folks invested into the various factions within the Imperium or the Tau or even the Eldar to debate the "goodness" of those factions?

My point was only that they could be, quite easily, depicted as heroic. But they aren't because black library authors, with few exceptions, are incompetent hacks and / or just plain don't care. A good combination of both I think.

Oh i wasn't singling you out Melissia ~ its just been an overwhelming trend i'm seeing.

We start of with this idea that Wh40K is Grimdark - total dystopia where the only constant in the whole universe is that War is occurring.

and that's all well an good in theory....

But folks keep trying to carve out exceptions. For individuals I can understand - but for whole factions?

We've been treated to threads asking how "good" the Ultramarines or the Space Wolves, or (fill in Astartes chapter) or the Tau. etc.

Even Veteran Sergeant started his reply to this thread in such a mode (when the thread wasn't even asking for that).

And by the way i do agree with many of your points.

For a setting that basis itself on Dystopia, Morality seems to be on lots of people minds.


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Durza wrote:There was a bit of fluff in the CSM codex where a group of Night Lords attacked a training planet for them, then used the bones of the dead to summon thousands of daemons to kill the rest of the world.

Do the SoB jsut have a giant "Kick Me" Sign on them?

I just remembered a short story that haves a Cannones (not sure how it is spelled) and two senior sisters going after Miriel Sabatiel the only SoB that was corrupted by her own choosing... any ways they get killed by her. I think it was called "Invitation" but I'm not sure.

Yori wrote:I just remembered a short story that haves a Cannones (not sure how it is spelled) and two senior sisters going after Miriel Sabatiel the only SoB that was corrupted by her own choosing... any ways they get killed by her. I think it was called "Invitation" but I'm not sure.

Well first Yori, thank you and everyone else for their contributions to this thread. I have some reading to do.


Second - Wow. They really can't catch a break can they?

Just read Hammer and Anvil and I am currently reading Faith and Fire. I actually really like how they are portrayed in it. Not the main disobedient, but has her heart in the right place heroine Miriya, but all the other sisters are actually just what I expected them to be. A deep true belief in what they do coupled with a sorely tested faith in the leadership provided by the priests they often take orders from. I mean I really would never expect an all female army to like the men who order them around.
As far as why they are so often portrayed as inept in most other appearances? Cause it makes the enemy look strong without being unbeatable. An enemy wipes out some IG forces? Big deal, anyone could do that. An enemy wipes out a Space Marine force? Matt Ward would hunt down the offending author, his family, his pets, and crucify them at the nearest Games Workshop store. So that really only leave the SoB to be crushed, showing how powerful the enemy is, yet allowing whatever the chosen protagonist is to overcome them.

Dannyevilguy wrote:
As far as why they are so often portrayed as inept in most other appearances? Cause it makes the enemy look strong without being unbeatable. An enemy wipes out some IG forces? Big deal, anyone could do that. An enemy wipes out a Space Marine force? Matt Ward would hunt down the offending author, his family, his pets, and crucify them at the nearest Games Workshop store. So that really only leave the SoB to be crushed, showing how powerful the enemy is, yet allowing whatever the chosen protagonist is to overcome them.

Spoiler:

Heck even in Hammer and Anvil it was a SoB force originally overrun and killed by necrons that another Sisters force came and avenged.

I figured as much. The SoB are the perennial whipping boys..err girls of the WH40K universe. Although it doesn't make much sense from a marketing standpoint - no one will want to play a faction whose sole purpose in existence is to lose and make other factions look good.

it goes against the whole ethos of WH40K - which is about War (and the occasional winning of War).

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

You made a comment about them being antagonists. I simply expounded on the idea. If you had read what I wrote, you'd see that I very clearly delineated that there are few "good guys" in 40K.

And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Seems about right. They are few in number, overloaded with short range weaponry, lacking in comprehensive armor support, and believe that the intervention of a non-existent deity will assist them in victory, lol.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

You made a comment about them being antagonists. I simply expounded on the idea. If you had read what I wrote, you'd see that I very clearly delineated that there are few "good guys" in 40K.

And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Seems about right. They are few in number, overloaded with short range weaponry, lacking in comprehensive armor support, and believe that the intervention of a non-existent deity will assist them in victory, lol.

6+ Invulnerable save says what?

Used to be 3++ inv save.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Seems about right. They are few in number, overloaded with short range weaponry, lacking in comprehensive armor support, and believe that the intervention of a non-existent deity will assist them in victory, lol.

Ah - but i'm referring less to in-game logic and more to Real World portrayal.

You can spin any group in whatever direction one feels like - that is the nature of fiction.

But there has been in fact a consistent trend in GW to repeatedly spin this particular group in a detrimental position vis-a-vis everyone else.

The fact that they are female only serves to reinforce a rather unfortunate stereotype.


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Dannyevilguy wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys

Good? Who said anything about good?

You made a comment about them being antagonists. I simply expounded on the idea. If you had read what I wrote, you'd see that I very clearly delineated that there are few "good guys" in 40K.

And what are the the SoB good at? What have they been portrayed as again and again and again?

Dying.

Seems about right. They are few in number, overloaded with short range weaponry, lacking in comprehensive armor support, and believe that the intervention of a non-existent deity will assist them in victory, lol.

6+ Invulnerable save says what?

6+ invulnerable? a minor thing when compared to:

What about those Acts of Faith that keep occurring in and around the Sisters?

Or those Miracles that occur....the ones explicitly denied by cannon to be Warp-based...

Or....those Living Saints....

Like I've said many times before, it's impossible for them to be divine in nature. The Emperor categorically refused to be worshiped as a deity, so vehemently that he ordered an entire world destroyed. The Ecclesiarchy, which the Sisters serve, has only further polluted that vein of worship and exploited it for personal gain, so he's not going to grant powers to people just for really, really being faithful to him. So the "faith" powers must be a product of something else. "Just as planned" probably.

There's a very good reason why the powers were originally described as psychological in nature, based on the Sister's steadfast faith (which didn't require divine intervention). The powers only morphed slowly into magical powers later, as GW obviously realized that nobody was playing the Sisters (or, more importantly, not buying the models), so tried to spice them up a bit.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like I've said many times before, it's impossible for them to be divine in nature

Yes, you can say that, but that doesn't make your statements true, nor any of the base assumptions any good.

In fact, there's a very good argument to be made that he planned to, eventually, ascend in to "godhood" when the time was right, and the Horus Heresy sped up his plans due to Magnus' stupidity.

Being able to have greater strength than a Space Marine or faster than an Eldar is not "psychological" in nature, either, that's a lazy explanation. And there's plenty of other things from FFG, such as being able to trap or repel daemons, turning a melee weapon in to a witch killing blade with a touch, absorbing another person's injuries in to your own body, and so on and so forth, which simply cannot be described as psychological in nature. Certainly the 3++ invulnerable save can't.

If you want an explanation that isn't divine, the only one that really works is based off of a line from the third edition book, which says that they practice a unique martial art that combines prayer and combat prowess to create miraculous feats, but even then the feats in question are quite powerful in nature, far more than "psychological". Bolter shells shattering armor where they would not normally before; Sisters taking hits from titan weapons and surviving; Sisters overpowering Space Marines and tossing them aside; Sisters outmaneuvering Eldar and striking them down before the Eldar can strike. Only a single one of the five acts can really be described as "psychological".

Veteran Sergeant wrote: The powers only morphed slowly into magical powers later, as GW obviously realized that nobody was playing the Sisters (or, more importantly, not buying the models), so tried to spice them up a bit.

Yeah - and that's kind of the reality we're dealing with in the current time period.

Canon is whomever/whatever is currently in the driver's seat at GW.

If someone decided the next day that the Alpha Legion were in fact loyalists Marines - welcome to the new Reality.

If someone over there decided to actually staple down whether or not the Tau are insidious manipulators or naieve do-gooders - welcome to the new Reality.


That is the nature of Codex changes.

As of right now - we have Saints that resurrect from the Dead courtesy of Dan Abnett. And so that is the new reality.

Until tomorrow comes.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:As of right now - we have Saints that resurrect from the Dead courtesy of Dan Abnett. And so that is the new reality.

That's not new.

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like I've said many times before, it's impossible for them to be divine in nature

Yes, you can say that, but that doesn't make your statements true, nor any of the base assumptions any good.

And, strangely enough, you telling me that I am wrong still hasn't yet made you correct about me being wrong because all of your arguments are more porous than a colander. Indeed, we've analyzed this a half dozen times, and strangely enough, all half dozen times, you've been unable to present a solid argument to counter anything I've said. You seem to think that being obstinate equates to victory. Very well, lol.

Someone who claims to be as knowledgeable as you pretend to be, would know that the original Sister's powers made them: Immune to fear, frenzy, +1 Leadership, hatred, immune to psychic powers, immune to psychology, choose their own targets, or fire a second time. You don't get to quote a different book to prove that argument wrong, lol. Good lord you're terrible at this.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like I've said many times before, it's impossible for them to be divine in nature

Yes, you can say that, but that doesn't make your statements true, nor any of the base assumptions any good.

And, strangely enough, you telling me that I am wrong still hasn't yet made you correct about me being wrong because all of your arguments are more porous than a colander. Indeed, we've analyzed this a half dozen times, and strangely enough, all half dozen times, you've been unable to present a solid argument to counter anything I've said. You seem to think that being obstinate equates to victory. Very well, lol.

Someone who claims to be as knowledgeable as you pretend to be, would know that the original Sister's powers made them: Immune to fear, frenzy, +1 Leadership, hatred, immune to psychic powers, immune to psychology, choose their own targets, or fire a second time. You don't get to quote a different book to prove that argument wrong, lol. Good lord you're terrible at this.

Well you, lol, should really, lol, try and make your point in an, lol, more condescending manner, lol. It really is not coming across enough yet. lol.

And just cause the Emperor did not want to be a god, does not mean he did not become one. May not have been up to him. The fact that so many people worship him could have very well made him a god in the same line of thought how the Eldar created Slaanesh.

Melissia wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:As of right now - we have Saints that resurrect from the Dead courtesy of Dan Abnett. And so that is the new reality.

That's not new.

I stand corrected.

But the point i was trying to make is that one can't "freeze frame" a version of WH40K and pat themselves on the back saying "this is True for all time."

It may have been True at one point (like the whole Star Child business) - and now its not.

I mean, the GK "Bloodtide" business is an excellent example of this.

And the fact that Space Marines woke up one morning to discover that Robert Guilliam was their Spiritual Liege.


And as it stands now, we've got Mystically Powered SoBs with Resurrecting Saints.

Until..someone decides to chuck that out the window, that's Truth.

I believe the only faction that gets beat up on a more routine basis then SoB would be the PDF.

"Some Sisters were getting slaughtered, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man"

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:But there has been in fact a consistent trend in GW to repeatedly spin this particular group in a detrimental position vis-a-vis everyone else.

Nonsense. If you want to throw down claims like that, you really want to do some research first. As a matter of course I would like to see:

The number of battles that each race has fought, as mentioned by either Black Library or GW proper, and the number of those battles expressed as a percentage that each race has won and lost.

Kaldor wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:But there has been in fact a consistent trend in GW to repeatedly spin this particular group in a detrimental position vis-a-vis everyone else.

Nonsense. If you want to throw down claims like that, you really want to do some research first. As a matter of course I would like to see:

The number of battles that each race has fought, as mentioned by either Black Library or GW proper, and the number of those battles expressed as a percentage that each race has won and lost.

You might be asking for the wrong type of data Kaldor - but first logistical matters.

1.) While I have had access to almost every product pushed out by GW - i can't necessarily claim ownership (and my access remains limited dependent upon the schedules of the various different owners).

I'd do this off Lexicanum - but given the amount of criticism the website gets from colleagues on warseer, hersey online, and this very forum - it makes me a bit perturbed.


That said, back to the original point -

2.) Undertaking a historical analysis of the percentage of battles won per race would definitely be an interesting study.

However Statistics is not PR or Marketing. In fact the latter two fields purpose is generally to distort the former.

And in my case - my target is the latter, not the former.

How do i put this....

I think its safe to say that the people one encounters in real life generally do not think or seek verification of things in terms of statistics. What is relied upon in order to make assessments about matters is a mix of their own intuitive thinking,anecdotal experiences, and the supposed "Common sense" that exists.

In fact these ruminations often override the reality represented by statistics. As my old Linear Regression/Time Series analysis prof. used to say - "Numbers are powerless before a mob."

Its that ineffable sentiment? (stereotype? geist?) that needs to be accessed and changed - not the number of battles won (although battles wouldn't really suffice, now that i think about it. Positive and Negative portrayals - in terms of effectiveness, not morality - would be more accurate).


ie: One Gaunt or Cain or Yarrick can wipe away the overwhelming losses suffered by the IG in a person's mind.

Why? Because you have a very positive portrayal that a wide number of readers can in fact relate to.

The IG are still dying in droves (and in further consideration of this, i should amend my original statement) - but there are enough positive images to counterbalance their losses.


Can the same necessarily be said for the Sisters?

Acts of Faith exist in the 40k universe, even when the Emperor was walking on Earth (see first HH novels). And Sororitas can do them.

Durza wrote:There was a bit of fluff in the CSM codex where a group of Night Lords attacked a training planet for them, then used the bones of the dead to summon thousands of daemons to kill the rest of the world.

Sounds like a Grey Knight rite

Grey Templar wrote:I believe the only faction that gets beat up on a more routine basis then SoB would be the PDF.
"Some Sisters were getting slaughtered, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man"

Don't forget Eldar Avatars! Killing at least one in every Codex seems standard now

A great deal of 40k is powered by the fact that in that universe, belief/thought has a direct and tangible impact.

Lopping off heads in the name of Khorne doesn't just make you a crazy person. It actually DOES fuel an existing entity. The Orks entire kulture is held together by the lynch pin of their collective belief in how things are supposed to work actually making it work sorta. The Eldar thoughts and actions in excess gave birth to an entity that continually devours their souls at every opportunity.

The Imperium and big E are arguably little different. The Emp, by some fluff, was already a collective expression of psychic effort. He then became revered, then worshiped. On top of that, he has an obvious presence in the warp through the Astronomicon, and, depending on what fluff you want to take, varying levels of more specific impact on the warp. It stand to reason that, at this point, 10,000 years of intense worship, combined with his already existing state, has produced some entity that is the Emp of old, and at the same time, is the Emp as the ecclesiarchy sees him.

The SoB can call them acts of faith, or whatever else. In reality, they're probably a bit like Ork psychic abilities- powered by the unified beilef system, and/or the actual warp presence of big E himself. Some middleground between the Orks and Chaos sorcery.

On top of that, I'd argue that ressurected saints are the equivalent of Greater Demons of the Emperor. I mean, Saint Sabbat even needed a "host" in the Gaunt books. The loyalist Primarchs could easily be the Emperor's "deamon princes" at the end of the day, and given enough presence. It would explain the various-but-often-aligned end of days scenarios for the Imperium- Wolftime, the Tome of Fire, etc. If the Emperor rises completely, and establishes himself as a warp god, then it makes sense that the loyalist primarchs would be in his controlled areas of the warp.

So, to me it is entirely practical within the setting for the SoB to actually be using "magic". It certainly isn't any more out there than what Chaos is doing, and nobody is complaining about that.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:But the point i was trying to make is that one can't "freeze frame" a version of WH40K and pat themselves on the back saying "this is True for all time."

Indeed.

Claiming that a decade old codex is "new material" that shouldn't be referenced makes Veteran's entire argument nonsense.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:And as it stands now, we've got Mystically Powered SoBs with Resurrecting Saints.

There are a few good explanations (which Vet chooses to ignore of course) of Sisters' powers, some of which are worse than others. That they're literally martial art skills (their kung fu is greater than yours, taken from a line in the codex), that they're divine blessings (as stated in the codex itself), that they're a gestalt psychic power created by group faith (directly contradicted by all source material, including FFG and black library books), and so on are all explanations people have tried to give to it, and they're all far better reasoned than Vet's attempts at claiming they're "psychological".

DrimGark wrote:In reality, they're probably a bit like Ork psychic abilities- powered by the unified beilef system

They are specifically stated, in every single source book that mentions the miracles, that the miracles are not psychic and have no psychic element to them. Therefor this is wrong.


The answer is quite simple-- there's more to the 40k universe than we currently understand and know, although if I were to try to explain it, the two good explanations above (not the psychic one, which is provably bogus) are the ones I would use.

Erp Melissia - that was Veteran.

Kaldor was asking for something different. Although i do have to wonder what his opinions regarding the whole SoB matter is..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I believe the only faction that gets beat up on a more routine basis then SoB would be the PDF.
"Some Sisters were getting slaughtered, the PDF tried to respond and were killed to a man"

Don't forget Eldar Avatars! Killing at least one in every Codex seems standard now

Templar's quote is spot on.

Although - that's another matter that slightly irks me. Technically Khaine is a God. Or fragments of a God. Shouldn't he have cache as a superweapon for the Eldar?

But if his Avatars keep taking dives in fights.....


Meh. Another topic for another thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DrimGark wrote:So, to me it is entirely practical within the setting for the SoB to actually be using "magic". It certainly isn't any more out there than what Chaos is doing, and nobody is complaining about that.

I think the reason why Chaos doesn't ever attract criticism is because it, ironically,doesn't suffer too much from each transition from edition to edition.

The core fundamentals generally remain the same.

Not so with the Imperium and its foundational myth - the Horus Heresy and the Role of the Emperor.


Take a step back from all of this and look at it all from a bird's eye view. Its kind of funny the amount of effort that goes into debating sections/episodes of the Heresy and this almost obsessive need to prove one particular rendition/version of the Emperor as "correct."

Whoops. Early mornings hate me

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Like I've said many times before, it's impossible for them to be divine in nature. The Emperor categorically refused to be worshiped as a deity, so vehemently that he ordered an entire world destroyed. The Ecclesiarchy, which the Sisters serve, has only further polluted that vein of worship and exploited it for personal gain, so he's not going to grant powers to people just for really, really being faithful to him. So the "faith" powers must be a product of something else. "Just as planned" probably.

I'm just gonna add my 5c here (2c not legal tender in Aus)

The Emperor was only pushing that Flat-Earth Atheist view knowing full damn well that Gods and Goddesses, Chaos and otherwise, all exist.
This was simply because reason and ignorance are highly beneficial to resisting Chaos. No literally, it's the truth. By not knowing of it and refusal to see it weakens any warp-based beings ability to affect you. Have all of Humanity just like this and Chaos is reduced to nothing but mummers to your instinctive mind.

This evidently didn't workout how it was planned.

Now, if refusal to know weakens, then knowing with full certainty strengthens. The Emperor was already far above humans in the scale of things, now that most of humanity all see him as not only their god, but are unified in this belief, he is even stronger.

Also, something many people don't realise is that full and complete belief in something effects reality itself.

Meanwhile...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Someone who claims to be as knowledgeable as you pretend to be, would know that the original Sister's powers made them: Immune to fear, frenzy, +1 Leadership, hatred, immune to psychic powers, immune to psychology, choose their own targets, or fire a second time. You don't get to quote a different book to prove that argument wrong, lol. Good lord you're terrible at this.

See, this is called Cherry Picking. You are selectively choosing one book, and old one at that, to enforce you points when the Sisters Faith Powers have had 3 rewrites since 2nd ed. As well as Dark Heresy's Inquisitors Handbook and Blood of Martyrs splatbooks giving an assortment of new faith powers from instant wound healing, faith manifested as a ranged, anti-daemonic spear to objectively knowing someone's innocence and guilt.

And also...

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And, strangely enough, you telling me that I am wrong still hasn't yet made you correct about me being wrong because all of your arguments are more porous than a colander. Indeed, we've analyzed this a half dozen times, and strangely enough, all half dozen times, you've been unable to present a solid argument to counter anything I've said. You seem to think that being obstinate equates to victory. Very well, lol.

Well lets have a go then.

It's hard to present the Sisters of Battle as good guys, because they really aren't. They're agents of the Ecclesiarchy which means at best they are delusional, fanatical followers of an oppressive state sponsored religious organization whose sole purpose is the manipulation and oppression of the masses.

Second most incorruptible force in the Imperium.
Most professionally trained non-augmented force in the Imperium.
Most tactically capable and adaptable non-augmented force in the Imperium.
Best armed and armoured non-augmented force in the Imperium.
Just those points alone is more then enough to write about.

But also, they are not the slaves of the Ecclesiarchy, because of their history, they have one (metaphorical if not literal) gun pointed at whoever gives them orders as much as they follow them.
The Ecclesiarchy is what ties the Imperium together spiritually, remove them and it isn't some bright shining new dawn that approaches the citizens of the Imperium but instead the endless laughter of Chaos.
Sisters are not delusional, they are involved deeply with the Imperium's populous. Whilst it's up the the Ecclesiarcy greater to handle to gritty side of things, the Sisters are the ever present symbol of the Ecclesiarchy's strength and security. They will be guarding the priests as they are distributing aid down at the EccleSalvation army center, they will be guarding the halls that the threatened and less-fortunate will cluster to for shelter and safety.

Just because they believe fanatically in the Emperor, and the Emperor was good, doesn't mean they themselves are good. Ultimately, the Sisters are going to be difficult to properly portray in the fluff. They have good intentions, but that's only because their values are so twisted that their definition of "good" is often quite bad. Besides, you know what they say the road to Hell is paved with.

Funny you should mention this. Space Marines, for example, are no where near any definition of 'good' yet there is no end of the novels starring them as the 'good' protagonists.

They can easily be written as fanatical, headstrong, stubborn, and narrow-minded because, well, they probably are.

Which is not the case. The Sisters are a massively competent and capable army. BL writers just hate them. Pure and simple.
Read Inquisitor's Handbook and Blood of Martyrs both by FFG and both written in part by Andy Hoare who was the reason the Sisters existed in 3rd ed onwards at all. Both these books are considered canon by GW and go deeply into the Sisters as an organisation and how they function, how they associate with the Imperium at large and how they are probably the MOST LOVED force in the entire Imperium.

since the Space Marines know that the Sisters' devotional worship is misguided and not in accordance to the Emperor's will.

Kettu wrote:The Custode leads Alicia and her five closest officers of the Brides of the Emperor into the very throne room itself.
What happened in their is not given but when they come back out they had changed and each had received a separate vision that became their guiding principal and ideal since then.
It's believed that the heads of each of the Big Six Orders all know and still follow these visions.

That and the head of the Custodes defended the Sisters post-Vandire in keeping them on as the Ecclesiarchy's Chamber Militant.
The Custodes are likely the only remaining people in the Imperium that hold the Emperor's vision true to how it was. So that likely also counts as well.

Any other issues?

Kettu wrote:Which is not the case. The Sisters are a massively competent and capable army. BL writers just hate them. Pure and simple.
Read Inquisitor's Handbook and Blood of Martyrs both by FFG and both written in part by Andy Hoare who was the reason the Sisters existed in 3rd ed onwards at all. Both these books are considered canon by GW and go deeply into the Sisters as an organisation and how they function, how they associate with the Imperium at large and how they are probably the MOST LOVED force in the entire Imperium.

Wait wait - wat?! Andy wrote RPG books for the SoB?


That's as close as we're ever going to get to authorial intent.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:I think its safe to say that the people one encounters in real life generally do not think or seek verification of things in terms of statistics. What is relied upon in order to make assessments about matters is a mix of their own intuitive thinking,anecdotal experiences, and the supposed "Common sense" that exists.

I think it's safe to say that people in real life are generally useless trogolodytes.

As far as the who SoB matter goes, I believe there isn't one. The whole issue is one giant straw man.

Kaldor wrote:
I think it's safe to say that people in real life are generally useless trogolodytes.

Well that's a giant condemnation of the human race.

As far as the who SoB matter goes, I believe there isn't one. The whole issue is one giant straw man.

Penny for your thoughts?

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Penny for your thoughts?

I think someone believed that the Sisters just get beaten up all the time, never bothered to fact-check, and then one or two people agreed with him, and THEY never fact checked, and then we end up with this thread, which is basically one giant misconception; that the sisters are just GW and BL whipping 'boys'.

Kaldor wrote:

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
Penny for your thoughts?

I think someone believed that the Sisters just get beaten up all the time, never bothered to fact-check, and then one or two people agreed with him, and THEY never fact checked, and then we end up with this thread, which is basically one giant misconception; that the sisters are just GW and BL whipping 'boys'.

well i wouldn't necessarily say that the opinion is isolated solely to this thread, nor has the topic been left undiscussed on other WH40K forums....so much so that its gained a bit of mockery on a 1d4Chan page apparently.

But if you've got any data to the contrary - i can't speak for anyone else watching this thread - but i'd be very interested to see it.


You have my full attention.

Kaldor wrote:I think someone believed that the Sisters just get beaten up all the time, never bothered to fact-check

That's because you never bothered to fact check.

Compared to all other factions, 40k shows Sisters of Battle overwhelmingly as rarely achieving victory. Even the IG has a better victory rate than Sisters do. This is because of the general dearth of Sisters lore from the perspective of the Sororitas or from a sympathetic perpsective; most references to Sisters being in other factions' lore, where they denigrate the group simply because there's almost nothing the Sisters have that shows otherwise. Hell, the only good thing about the pdf so-called "codex" was that it did actually add a few more lines of text showing Sisters having a unquestionable victory or two.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:But if you've got any data to the contrary - i can't speak for anyone else watching this thread - but i'd be very interested to see it.

I don't, hence my request for some.

I'd like to believe that someone crying foul about GW's treatment of the Sisters would have some evidence to support their claim.

Melissia wrote:Compared to all other factions, Sisters lore shows them overwhelmingly as rarely achieving victory. Even the IG has a better victory rate than Sisters do.

Prove it. You've come out with the claim, now lets see the data.

And now time for the doublecheck....

Do we have every recorded piece of fluff of the SoB accounted for? Or can someone toss another piece onto the pile?

Kaldor wrote:Prove it.

Sisters of Battle have two black library books to their name, just two, no more. An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman. In other books, they're usually absent entirely even when they should be there-- there's almost no mention of the Sisters Hospitaller in most Guard lore for example, even though they're well known across the Imperium and well beloved by the populace. When they are, they're usually portrayed in a negative light because they're never the main characters of the books and the writer wanted another antagonistic force.

In SM lore, Sisters got trounced easily by Space Wolves (Space Wolf lore), and are shown to be indecisive in dealing with potentially renegade chapters that are attacking civilians (Armageddon). They were then supposedly kicked off of Cadia (Eye of Terror related lore) because of this and other incidences. In the Grey Knights lore, they're mislead and end up dying in the end, or they're all slaughtered to empower the Grey Knights. They never actually manage to win against them or survive a victory with them. There's a minor piece of lore where a Sister is able to bring an ultramarine (I believe) back from corruption, or somesuch, but outside of a few mentions in DoW2 Retribution, that's the only positive mention of Sisters in relation to Space Marines I've seen.

In CSM lore, a contingent of veteran Sisters are shown to be unable to do any real damage to a renegade marine chapter (the mary sue like "Sons of Malice"). Only in long gone history (Rogue Trader era) and recently (in the accursed pdf codex) have Sisters actually managed to show that they can have victories against chaos marines. Even though this was originally considered their traditional enemy, GW has not seen fit to have them face off against Chaos Marines except in a few scattered locations.

In Tyranids lore, they're regularly simply all eaten by the 'nids, though as a minor point they sometimes manage to stop the Tyranids long enough to let the civilians flee. They never manage to repel them, however, like the Guard (such as in Cain), Orks (depicted often as a threat equal to the Tyranids as shown by the Octavius sector), and Marines (such as on Macragge) are able to do. In Ork lore, GW has never written about Sisters winning, ever, and the primary lore with Sisters and Orks have Sisters being slaughtered and not accomplishing anything even remotely valuable or even symbolic (Armageddon). A mention of Sisters participating in these battles is shown, but aside from that they're ignored.

In Necron lore, Sisters are nothing more than victims, never being able to accomplish anything of value (Sanctuary 101). I know of no Eldar vs Sister lore, save that a certain Dark Eldar leader has a Sister of Battle sex slave. There is very little, if any, Sister vs Tau lore as well outside of DoW:Soulstorm.

In contrast, the sources of Sisters accomplishing something of value are in their codices and the FFG supplements, and are mostly accomplished against common heretics, rather than, say, Orks, Tyranids, Space Marines, or any other faction which has a codex.

Overwhelmingly, Sisters are portrayed as victims and very little else. If they manage to accomplish anything, it's against a weak opponent, or it's only with the sacrifice of an entire Order Militant. If Sisters were depicted as having greater numbers, this might even be acceptable, but without trying to abuse the vague numbers Sisters are depicted as being rarer than Space Marines, so essentially they regualrly are wiped out almost entirely.

The victimization of Sisters does nothing for the army's popularity-- even Eldar win some strategic battles, who wants to buy an army that's more doomed than the Eldar? BL authors being as generally incompetent (with rare exceptions) as they are and being generally unwilling to write believable female characters or likable religious characters, they don't do Sisters any justice. And with GW essentially doing its best to ignore Sisters as much as it possibly can, we don't have much in the way of other sources.




So... in essence, the reason that Sisters are generally viewed as GW's whipping girls is because GW uses Sisters as their whipping girls, killing them off with monotonous regularity and never giving them any real victories.

Wow that was....quick..

A small aside: Was there any definitive winner to DoW: Soulstorm? I've heard that Relic ruled in favor of the IG being the final victor (i can't substantiate that however).

Which means the SoB and the Living Saint who accompanied them on that campaign were felled by....somebody/thing/group.

The only confirmation I've seen is that Space Marines lost and viewed the whole thing as a mistake on their part. No idea who won.

I believe the IG won Soulstorm. Those 100 baneblades Mr Sturn shipped out did their job

Grey Templar wrote:I believe the IG won Soulstorm. Those 100 baneblades Mr Sturn shipped out did their job

LOL.

any description as to who did in what faction to leave the IG as Last Man standing?

Or are we left to color in the details ourselves?

Go start another thread about that lol, you'll get better reception there.

For the record, I'm writing for the BL and I hope to add a chapter to the tear soaked SoB chronicle that is slightly more in their favor than it has been in the past. That's if I get published of course.

P.S. Let us not forget how instrumental the SoB were in repairing the damage of the Age of Apostasy during the Plague of Unbelief. Even if the predominant modern lore is against them, it is undeniable that the SoB have both golden hearts, and iron hands which they use with the Emperor's grace to cut the cancers away from the rotting Imperium. They are unsung and often unwanted hero's, but without them there would be no faith, no culture of the Imperium, and therefore no Imperium to defend in the Emperor's name.

7 Edit's.. just to be sure.

Well, might as well start organizing the pile.



Sons of Malice
Source: Index Astartes and Codex: Eye of Terror

Incident: The Sons of Malice are a renegade chapter whose current status is tied to an incident involving the Inquisition and the SoB.

An Inquisitor objected to the SoM's specific chapter rituals which involved flesh-eating/quasi-cannibalism. The Inquisitor seeks to rectify the situation by moblizing a strike force of Celestians, the most skilled fighters in the SoB.

Result: the Celestians are wiped out and the Inquisitor is sacrificed by the SoM.


The Sanctuary 101 Incident
Source: Necron Codex 3rd edition, Codex Witch Hunters 3rd edition:

Incident: Prior to Cron 5th RetCon (although this may have been maintained), Sanctuary 101 was the starting point of the narrative between the Imperium and the Necrons.

The Fortress-Convent was located in Ultima Segmentum (planet unrecorded)

Result: The Convent was wiped out by Necrons - circumstances point to at the very least the presence of Flayed Ones.



More to come..

DemetriDominov wrote:For the record, I'm writing for the BL and I hope to add a chapter to the tear soaked SoB chronicle that is slightly more in their favor than it has been in the past. That's if I get published of course.

P.S. Let us not forget how instrumental the SoB were in repairing the damage of the Age of Apostasy during the Plague of Unbelief. Even if the predominant modern lore is against them, it is undeniable that the SoB have both golden hearts, and iron hands which they use with the Emperor's grace to cut the cancers away from the rotting Imperium. They are unsung and often unwanted hero's, but without them there would be no faith, no culture of the Imperium, and therefore no Imperium to defend in the Emperor's name.

7 Edit's.. just to be sure.

Actually, given the FFG material, the Imperial populace quite loves the Adepta Sororitas. The nobles absolutely adore the Sisters Famulous, and having one run their house is considered a mark of honor and respect. The common folk and especially the Guard view the Hospitaller as saints of mercy, because there's no better doctors and surgeons in the galaxy and they're dedicated to the extreme. And the Sisters of Battle themselves are beloved for protecting the faithful.

Sure the FFG material has its flaws (describing their power armor as light power armor for example, directly contradicting C:WH), but it has plenty of good parts too.

Wait.. why are we reinventing the wheel?


This whole argument has been argued before on DakkaDakka!

-----> http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/377243.page

And plenty of times before that. It's a recurring theme in Sisters lore.

The kindest way to describe Games Workshop's handling of the Adepta Sororitas is incompetent, and one can get meaner from there.

SoB are undoubtedly my favorite faction. Like other "normal" humans, they are often presented as physically frail compared to SM. I don't mind that. What really gets under my skin is when they are portrayed as weak willed or corruptible.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:Well, might as well start organizing the pile.



Sons of Malice
Source: Index Astartes and Codex: Eye of Terror

Incident: The Sons of Malice are a renegade chapter whose current status is tied to an incident involving the Inquisition and the SoB.

An Inquisitor objected to the SoM's specific chapter rituals which involved flesh-eating/quasi-cannibalism. The Inquisitor seeks to rectify the situation by moblizing a strike force of Celestians, the most skilled fighters in the SoB.

Result: the Celestians are wiped out and the Inquisitor is sacrificed by the SoM.


The Sanctuary 101 Incident
Source: Necron Codex 3rd edition, Codex Witch Hunters 3rd edition:

Incident: Prior to Cron 5th RetCon (although this may have been maintained), Sanctuary 101 was the starting point of the narrative between the Imperium and the Necrons.

The Fortress-Convent was located in Ultima Segmentum (planet unrecorded)

Result: The Convent was wiped out by Necrons - circumstances point to at the very least the presence of Flayed Ones.



More to come..

Dannyevilguy wrote:

Spoiler:

The Sanctuary 101 incident is resolved in the book Hammer and Anvil by James Swallow. A SoB force is sent back to the planet and they destroy the necron moon base, resulting in the necron ground forces phasing out before they are able to wipe out the sisters. Many sisters died, but they overcame beyond rediculous odds and managed to sneak in a victory. This book also went out of its way to include all the new necron types from the latest codex to include a Mindshackle scarab on a survivor for the first Santuary 101 SoB. She went crazy, but managed to fight their control and escape the necron Cryptek who experimented on her.

Now that i should pass off to my friends who play Necrons.

Indeed, it's an example of why Sisters need more books from THEIR point of view.


So do the xenos races TBH. Everyone needs a chance in the limelight, not just marines.

Melissia wrote:And plenty of times before that. It's a recurring theme in Sisters lore.

The kindest way to describe Games Workshop's handling of the Adepta Sororitas is incompetent, and one can get meaner from there.

Actually jumped on Librarium and Warseer - you weren't kidding when you said "recurrent theme."

Same with the "Where do Miracles come from?" arguments.

As has been mentioned before, the Adepta Sororitas have always been somewhat of GW's stepchild. In part, one might argue this is due to an oversaturation of Imperial forces, which results in the majority of TT gamers interested in this faction picking either the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard rather than the "in-between" in form of the Sisterhood, regardless of their unique background and potential. Another part is the studio itself, seemingly lacking in employees who feel enthusiastic about the SoB rather than having to be "forced" to write about them (I recall rumours about Andy Hoare having been the only one in the studio who ever championed them). To add insult to injury, the Space Marines would then absorb various traits traditionally associated with the Sisters - including pseudo-religious appearances or even wargear options. All of this manifested itself in a vicious cycle where GW would never hype this army as much as others, so players never generated as much interest, so GW would never hype them, and so on. A few gems can be found throughout various issues of White Dwarf or minor TT supplement books, but other than that, the three Codices released so far contain about 3/4 of all available Sororitas fluff.

Naturally, this lack of presence carried on into Black Library, although James Swallow's series about Sister Miriya ("Faith and Fire", "Hammer and Anvil", "Red and Black") and one-offs like Kev Walker's graphic novel ("Daemonifuge") or a few short stories ("Daemonblood", "The Invitation") published in various anthologies are notable exceptions to the general rule. The general rule of course being a total absence at best, or a depiction either as incompetent cannonfodder or as something completely out of line with the most basic descriptions in studio material at worst. As previously mentioned by another dakkanaut, various authors seem to think they make good foes, which in itself is a reasonable conclusion, considering their training and equipment. The end result, as we know, has been that they've become the whipping girls of the franchise, seemingly taking the "martyr" theme a little too close to heart and raising understandable if misplaced concerns regarding their actual usefulness. In short, the issue only gets worse.

The aforementioned exceptions as well as the Sisters' venture in the video game ("Soulstorm") or pen&paper rpg ("Dark Heresy") market can be very much seen as a light at the end of the tunnel, however, if one were to seek an optimistic perception. In spite of their poor handling in the TT, their presence in other media and as such their recognition value has increased, which might just be enough to help them get off the ground again, provided this sudden burst of activity (compared to previous years) doesn't just die down again. I'd probably not make any bets either way.

Kettu wrote:Both these books are considered canon by GW [...]

To be fair, there is no canon in GW - it's an urban myth that keeps getting passed from mouth to mouth (or rather hand to hand) in spite of comments made by actual GW people as well as freelancers working with their licenses - coincidentally including Andy Hoare, since you referenced him. This is what he actually thinks about the issue of canonicity:
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

And in contrast to my convictions during my first years as a fan of this franchise, I've come to appreciate this stance. Personally, I can do without a "canon" that includes such silliness like friendly SoB-vets who drink and play cards for fun, "civilian" plasma guns or backflipping Terminators as they occasionally get thrown around in various novels or RPG books. Instead, GW seems to intend to let the individual player see and interpret the world in the way he or she likes it - "making the setting their own", so to say. Consequently, the ensueing chaos amongst licensed works where you have one author simply not caring about what another wrote or even what it says in a studio book (see Aaron Dembski-Bowden's article above) creates a lot of inconsistencies between the fans, which is why there are so many fierce discussions about the background on this forum too ... when in fact "none of these interpretations is wrong", as Gav Thorpe commented on his blog.

In a way, this does mean that one could "freeze-frame a version of 40k", as the Contemplative Sphinx put it. Not that - to get back to the actual topic at hand - this would mean a lot to the Sisters of Battle. When limiting one's view solely to the actual studio material, few things have changed since their very first inception in the old 1st edition Rogue Trader. In fact, the designer's notes for the 3E Witch Hunter Codex, the last proper book the Sisters have received, even stated that the authors exercised great care so that nothing ever written on the Sororitas would be contradicted. One of the very few cases throughout the entire 40k franchise where you have a faction remain entirely consistent over so many years. Not that the available material wouldn't still leave a lot open to interpretation, mind you. Working as intended, one might say.

Lynata wrote:

Kettu wrote:Both these books are considered canon by GW [...]

To be fair, there is no canon in GW - it's an urban myth that keeps getting passed from mouth to mouth (or rather hand to hand) in spite of comments made by actual GW people as well as freelancers working with their licenses - coincidentally including Andy Hoare, since you referenced him. This is what he actually thinks about the issue of canonicity:
"It all stems from the assumption that there’s a binding contract between author and reader to adhere to some nonexistent subjective construct or ‘true’ representation of the setting. There is no such contract, and no such objective truth."
-- http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

And in contrast to my convictions during my first years as a fan of this franchise, I've come to appreciate this stance. Personally, I can do without a "canon" that includes such silliness like friendly SoB-vets who drink and play cards for fun, "civilian" plasma guns or backflipping Terminators as they occasionally get thrown around in various novels or RPG books. Instead, GW seems to intend to let the individual player see and interpret the world in the way he or she likes it - "making the setting their own", so to say. Consequently, the ensueing chaos amongst licensed works where you have one author simply not caring about what another wrote or even what it says in a studio book (see Aaron Dembski-Bowden's article above) creates a lot of inconsistencies between the fans, which is why there are so many fierce discussions about the background on this forum too ... when in fact "none of these interpretations is wrong", as Gav Thorpe commented on his blog.

Thank you Lynata, that was indeed most enlightening.

Probably one of the most helpful comments on this thread to date.

A small aside regarding canonicity: How does one pair up the above statements against BL's "Heretic Tome" policy? The version of WH40K represented in those works are targeted for exclusion and given the "Heretic" label because of it.

Melissia wrote:An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman.

You are aware that in Ciaphas Cain books, everyone including Cain is characterized as idiotic losers, right?
And that dogmatic people are the prime target of Cain's contempt lies also in the character.

And again the Grey Knight novel is missing in your listing, where Sororitas are presented respectfully and win in the end.

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman.

You are aware that in Ciaphas Cain books, everyone including Cain is characterized as idiotic losers, right?

I would if it was true, but it's not.

ContemplativeSphinx wrote:
A small aside regarding canonicity: How does one pair up the above statements against BL's "Heretic Tome" policy? The version of WH40K represented in those works are targeted for exclusion and given the "Heretic" label because of it.

A good question - if I were to guess this development came to be because the contents of these "Heretic Tomes" are even further from the studio standards than in the average licensed product. As Gav Thorpe wrote in the linked blog, "there certainly are established facts", and companies such as BL, FW or FFG do have editors who would refuse or change drafts deviating too much from the current studio vision, even with the considerable artistic license that authors obviously enjoy. Yet, as this vision has changed over the years, some books may now appear way more out of line than others.

Perhaps this is an attempt of Black Library to "save face" and set their normal products apart from books where everyone knows they "don't work" in relation to the current 40k 'verse - I imagine the various companies being well aware that these writings are valued not only for telling a story but also because fans wish to see them as "enriching" the setting with new information, as we can see in all those threads where someone points them out as a source (and I've done the same back then). In this, it is noteworthy that the companies themselves flat-out refuse to officially comment on the issue of canonicity (I believe the only time this happened was an article from BL in the White Dwarf where they gave a rather deflective "everything and nothing is true") ... currently, it is only the individual authors and designers behind the products who will tell you on their blogs or in an interview.
After all, publicly declaring everything "non-canon" could be argued as lowering the value of these products, and as such profits made by their sales.

Just a theory, of course - but it would add up.

On a sidenote, there are actually a lot of GW writings where the Battle Sisters come off as a capable force - they're just very scattered and hard to find, which is why a whole lot of people, including ardent Sisters fans, don't know about them. An example would be the old official website of GW's Armageddon campaign, which can still be accessed via the wayback machine: http://web.archive.org/web/20070202084051/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Troops/shroud.html & http://web.archive.org/web/20061012034227/http://www.armageddon3.com/English/Campaign/Fire_Wastes/firewastes.html

Lynata wrote:http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

Sometimes I really wonder why Aaron is such a fan-darling. I've noticed a trend of being disingenuous and disparaging with regard to his readers. For example:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:I don’t sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I might’ve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation.

So Fan #3,974,910 (nice way to dehumanize and trivialize the folks who make your lifestyle possible, bub) is all lathered up about something that doesn't even matter. But don't worry -- the author who talks about you as a faceless jerk boiling over about nothing apparently also has sympathy for you.

Heh, in fairness, he does have a point regarding the level of detail such debates often concern themselves with - certainly I've been engaged in some very petty arguments myself, and ADB directly addresses this passionate behaviour in his blog. It's not the fans' fault, given that the companies are probably quite happy with the level of interest surrounding their products as sources of a non-existing canon and see no need to dispell this notion, but it ends up making the authors look bad if their works end up conflicting with what somebody else wrote - even when everyone involved in actually making the product knows it shouldn't matter. In turn, many fans lash out against the authors for "violating" some detail regarded as sacrosanct, and the authors feel as if they are treated unfairly. Needless to say, this does create a certain gap.

I think ADB is still regarded with an above-average level of respect due to him originating from the very group of fans and forumites he is now writing for, and for occasionally commenting or explaining stuff on a forum or his blog - as he did with his article about the issue of canonicity. This closeness is valued by the fans, even moreso as it stands in an ever-growing contrast to GW, who seem to grow apart more and more from their customers the bigger they get.

How much anyone likes him probably depends on how much emphasis you'd place on his books "conforming" to your own interpretation of the setting (as formed from anything you've read so far) - and if you're part of the lucky ones whose ideas are in line with his.

It's kind of a lie, though, isn't it, that this guy was playing 40k and then just started writing BL novels? He was writing for White Wolf before and I think also Mongoose. I've never seen him post a battle report or a painting blog or even start a discussion thread about the fluff. (TBF, haven't gone looking, either.) I have, by contrast, seen him swoop into discussions to defend against criticism of his work. Which is basically what he's doing in this article, sans swoop. I guess when people come to your soapbox, swooping is a bit like stooping. Anyway, all that playing and painting and ... er .. fandom is really for people who like trivial, irritating things like poor Fan #3,974,910.

Good thing Fan #3,974,910 has Aaron's sympathy.

In any case, I do enjoy his books. And not because the difference between 4 1/2 stars and 5 is whether all the serials match on the parts making up the lasguns his characters use. I like his work because it's full of interesting ideas and images as well as effective narrative techniques. Canon in and of itself is not a matter of how many targeting reticules flit around on the lenses of a Mark IV helmet. Canon is about coherence across a franchise. If how many targeting reticules appear is a big feature of your story, then it better damn well be consistent between authors. If it isn't, then we have an example of what Aaron says he would never defend:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:Having loose canon is no excuse for crappy research or poor writing, and I would never suggest otherwise.

I'll give it to you, Lynata, regarding the point about Aaron at least talking to the fans. My problem is that any talk is not good talk. Trivializing your fandom is stupid and mean. "It's all real and none of it's real" is not some spiritual insight or an invitation to creativity. It's a marketing strategy. Fluff discussions are how fans transform the bitter experience of being (ineffectually) marketed to into the meaningful experience of exploration and enjoyment.

Manchu wrote:

Lynata wrote:http://www.boomtron.com/2011/03/grimdark-ii-loose-canon/

Sometimes I really wonder why Aaron is such a fan-darling. I've noticed a trend of being disingenuous and disparaging with regard to his readers. For example:

Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:I don’t sit at my desk, rubbing my hands together, delighting in the fact that I might’ve annoyed Fan #3,974,910 because I said Commander Dude Guyman zigs instead of zags. I sympathise with that irritation.

So Fan #3,974,910 (nice way to dehumanize and trivialize the folks who make your lifestyle possible, bub) is all lathered up about something that doesn't even matter. But don't worry -- the author who talks about you as a faceless jerk boiling over about nothing apparently also has sympathy for you.

Really?
You think that's "dehumanizing and trivializing the folks who make his lifestyle possible"?

There's a measure of rage that goes against authors for doing things that people don't like. We saw that ourselves here on Dakka when Pyriel got into a shouting match with ADB over ADB's "fanboyism" of the Night Lords "destroying half the Blood Angels Chapter!", and we still are seeing it about freakin' Mat Ward and the Grey Knights Codex.

People take things out of context or from word of mouth/the Internet and blow them up into some kind of personal affront.

Hell, I'm guilty of it with C.S. Goto. But really, I think most of us are...

@Manchu:

You seem to know a lot more about him than I do! Coincidentally, I didn't even read any of his books (as he like most BL authors doesn't write anything concerning my immediate interests; I'm long done with Marines). I just thought his opinion, like Gav's or Andy's, was very insightful in what goes on in the heads of the people writing the stuff we're talking about. Especially given the prevalence of the "canon myth".

But yeah, I do agree about the points you raised about it being a market strategy, and that some more consistence would have been nice. The latter is unfortunately not something "we" got, and by now it'd take Leelandian efforts to bring everything in line now. Which, as I mentioned before, likely isn't even what the Powers That Be actually want. If you've been reading GW books of different editions, you'll notice how over the years things have become more and more vague, leaving more and more room for personal interpretation. The last "hard" numbers we got for how big the SoB are, for example, are from 2nd Edition. Same about the actual protective value of Space Marine armour, or how many Storm Troopers there are in the Imperial Guard. The absence of such information in recent editions increases the room to maneuver for both fans and authors, allowing them to come up with numbers they think are "right" without contradicting contemporary studio fluff.

And it works just fine, until somebody happens to pick up two books whose authors are stating opposite things. Or until you go on an internet forum where people who have read something else have formed an incompatible interpretation of the 'verse, at which point they begin verbally slapping each other with their favorite sources.

I have to say that ADB at least displays a willingness to read up on things before writing about them. I'm not too sure how true this is, but I've certainly gotten the impression that there are a number of authors who don't even care to do that. In some cases this may be due to the information being hard to find (see my earlier posts), but in others it's just plain lazyness ... or the author being convinced that his own idea is superior to whatever the original creatores came up with, aka arrogance.

Which reminds me of a comment Stardock CEO Brad Wardell made regarding the debacle that was Master of Orion III:
"Don't go off and say, 'I have my own artistic vision. Okay, good--so call it something else. Don't ride the coattails of the people who came before you to launch your own artistic vision."

Kanluwen wrote:Hell, I'm guilty of it with C.S. Goto. But really, I think most of us are...

Is it even the same case with C.S. Goto?

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:An equal number of Black Library books (the Cain books), Sisters are shown to be idiotic losers who get slaughtered to a woman.

You are aware that in Ciaphas Cain books, everyone including Cain is characterized as idiotic losers, right?

I would if it was true, but it's not.

Agreed - Cain gets irritated by the Sisters often gung ho attitdue to battle but he is impressed by theri actual abilities and is always careful to keep his views to hisself as everyone else in the Cain novels is deeply respectful of them - including many fo the more battleharded veterans he hangs about with - I mean is Commissar to.

The Cain novels portray the majority of the participants as human, often flawed but usually good at what they do - occassionally you do have fools but thats a plot point.

The Sisters in one Cain novel are killed - but thats at the hands of a Tryanid swarm and they very effective until overwhelmed
Other sisters ecnountered are formdiable warriors who do just fine.

The Sisters in the recent Legion of the Damned again are effective and steadfast warriors fighting with the Astartes to defend their world against the hordes of Khorne.

Kanluwen wrote:Really? You think that's "dehumanizing and trivializing the folks who make his lifestyle possible"?

Yes. That's why I posted it.

Kanluwen wrote:Hell, I'm guilty of it with C.S. Goto. But really, I think most of us are...

I can't speak for you but I don't think the problem with C. S. Goto is that I misunderstood and have blown out of proportion some small fault on his part.


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Lynata wrote:Or until you go on an internet forum where people who have read something else have formed an incompatible interpretation of the 'verse, at which point they begin verbally slapping each other with their favorite sources.

Whether or not you or I might enjoy this prospect, it's part of the fandom. It's disingenuous to call yourself a fanboy when you're actually an employee churning out product. Calling yourself a fanboy is something of a marketing strategy itself, especially in the context of an apology for your employer, and it becomes an intolerable bit of self-delusion when you juxtapose against it against trivializing your fans and their experience of the franchise.

Manchu wrote:Whether or not you or I might enjoy this prospect, it's part of the fandom. It's disingenuous to call yourself a fanboy when you're actually an employee churning out product. Calling yourself a fanboy is something of a marketing strategy itself, especially in the context of an apology for your employer, and it becomes an intolerable bit of self-delusion when you juxtapose against it against trivializing your fans and their experience of the franchise.

Definitively. Don't get me wrong - I did not intend to defend his choice of words, merely pointing out that I understand why he feels that way. I'm certainly guilty of the behaviour he is criticizing myself. For example when I'm reminding people that the Veteran Superior in the Cain novels is pretty much the antithesis to how they are described in GW sources, or when I'm nagging about certain choices made by FFG again.

All of that stuff is good, healthy fandom.

This is in distinction, of course, to what Kanluwen mentioned about how people willfully misinterpret Mat Ward.

Eh, there's a point when fandom results in you being TFG on an internet forum somewhere, literally working yourself into an apoplectic lather because someone got the color of a button on a pauldron of a Space Marine Chapter "wrong".

That person is Fan #3,974,910, and is richly deserving of mockery.

You argument is a tautology: TFG is TFG.

There's a point where fandom becomes something... different. And when you become TFG, then your fandom has exceeded the bounds of a healthy hobby and become... something else entirely, whether that's a religion, a clique, a fixation, a... well, I don't know what, but something that obviously isn't healthy, either physically or socially.

If the fact that someone has a different opinion from yours (nonspecific) in a game involving little plastic soldiers fighting little plastic elves drives you into fits of rage and fist-smashing keyboards and angry internet rants about it... it's time to step back and re-think your choices in life.

Same tautology.

Manchu wrote:Same tautology.

Is repeating tautology over and over again also a tautology?

Nope.

Here is a that you may find helpful: wikipedia.org

Manchu wrote:Nope.

Here is a that you may find helpful: wikipedia.org

Thanks, but I was being silly since you were being repetitive. Also, I think you're looking for the word 'link' in that sentence.

I wasn't being.


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Repetitive.

Manchu wrote:You argument is a tautology: TFG is TFG.

Manchu wrote:Same tautology.

Manchu wrote:I wasn't being.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Repetitive.

Okay, but you were being hilarious.

I think I will.


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Keep intentionally forgetting to finish.


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Sentences.


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In all seriousness: when you set up your opponent as wrong it's just begging the question. It's okay for people to get worked up over things they care about. Just because I don't care as much doesn't mean they are out of line. And to characterize them as having a tantrum or other kind of fit is just more of the same loading the question, exactly what I was criticizing ADB for doing.

Manchu wrote:It's kind of a lie, though, isn't it, that this guy was playing 40k and then just started writing BL novels? He was writing for White Wolf before and I think also Mongoose. I've never seen him post a battle report or a painting blog or even start a discussion thread about the fluff. (TBF, haven't gone looking, either.)

You're kidding, right? You're saying I just... lie? And you say it with no evidence at all; you even say you have no evidence, but you just assume it, anyway? It would've taken less time to check and realise you were wrong, than it took to insult me in that sentence.

Also, I freelanced for RPG companies while I was working in a bookstore for a few years. I'm not sure how that means I don't like 40K, or how it's actually relevant to my hobbying or my free time. Does a job stop you playing games? What's the difference between working in an office on a spreadsheet, and working in an office on RPGs? I'm not sure I see the correlation between writing RPGs and not ever playing 40K. It was a job, like any other.

Also, I've said in practically every interview (when I'm inevitably asked) that I play, and - not that it's somehow necessary - but I've posted hobby threads on B&C, as well as my blog and my Facebook. I had a Necromunda campaign weekend 3 weeks ago, with pictures (gasp!), you strangely suspicious fellow. I'm running a campaign with several GW folks in it, with 18 of us in total. There's even our opening fiction online (though with recent team-switches, we need to redo it. Gah. Gah!)

Seriously, what a weird thing to accuse someone of lying about. Why was that your natural reaction, dude? I'm curious.

Also, accusing me of never starting a thread to discuss the fluff is slightly terrifying. Again, a three second Google check will show pretty high post counts where I do nothing but discuss the fluff, for several hours a week. At this point, I realise you even said this was all a guess as you didn't check to see the truth either way, but seriously, it's a frighteningly wild guess, and you seemed so coldly sure of it. Why was your first instinct to assume such weird malice and forethought?

Manchu wrote:I have, by contrast, seen him swoop into discussions to defend against criticism of his work.

Ah, I think I see the crux of the matter. I don't post here much. On Heresy-Online, Bolter and Chainsword, the BL Bolthole, WarSeer, and even on /tg/, I post on a bunch of topics. I don't think anyone can accuse me of just posting to defend my work; at least, not with a straight face. My post count is pretty huge on other forums, and I hardly ever need to "defend" my work. Part of the reason is because I'm very, very, very lucky - I don't get much negative reaction, especially in relative terms compared to X, Y or Z. The only time I posted here to defend criticism of my work was when the criticism blatantly and provably got the facts wrong. That made it either a lie or a misunderstanding, depending on rage levels. But overall, there's much less to post about on DD, because there's such little BL discussion here. Besides, I can't live my whole life on forums. I already spend an average of about 2-3 hours a day on them, mostly stealing conversion ideas or answering questions.

Manchu wrote:Which is basically what he's doing in this article, sans swoop. I guess when people come to your soapbox, swooping is a bit like stooping. Anyway, all that playing and painting and ... er .. fandom is really for people who like trivial, irritating things like poor Fan #3,974,910.

Good thing Fan #3,974,910 has Aaron's sympathy.

You're vastly, vastly taking that out of context, or misunderstanding it to be deliberately obtuse. The reason I'm a "fan darling" (to use your phrase, which kinda makes me cringe) is because I categorically don't screw people around. You're twisting my words to reach the exact opposite conclusion. How did you take a paragraph about how I relate and sympathise, sharing the exact same concerns as a squillion fans, as somehow insulting? I write all that because I share the same concerns, not because I deride people for them.

That doesn't mean every single fan's attitude is equal, or they bring a point up in the same way. Some people act like jerks. Some people get overly anal, which is easy to do when you don't understand GW canon policy - because GW itself barely ever explains it. Which is why I chose to, through the medium of interpretive danc-- Uh, snarky humour in a single paragraph, amidst an entire essay that clearly shows I care.

But seriously, even that paragraph is hardly the vile insult you're insisting it is.

Manchu wrote:My problem is that any talk is not good talk. Trivializing your fandom is stupid and mean.

You genuinely took that from me spending hours and hours every single week trying to explain and help spread the word of how frustratingly difficult and unique GW canon is? I didn't write that article to sneer at people. I wrote it because GW will never explain it, and it's a headache for a bajillion fans who are in the dark and conflicting with each other. I like helping out. I like sharing the insight I'm lucky enough to get from seeing behind the curtain, which I do on several forums every day. I've literally never seen anyone paint me in that weirdly negative light before; I think if you tried to venture that opinion on a place where I actually post more often than once every six months, you'd be met with a pretty significant tide of "Dude, you might be making an error, there."

Manchu wrote:"It's all real and none of it's real" is not some spiritual insight or an invitation to creativity. It's a marketing strategy.

More than that, which is the significance you're missing. It's the company's policy, ineffectively translated to the fans, many of whom are in the dark about it, still discussing "canon" and never getting anywhere because that line of reasoning is a dead end. It's a key tenet to the 40K fandom, which has rarely been discussed beyond out of context quotes and vague innuendo. I was trying to bring it into some clarity, which - overwhelmingly - has had a positive reaction.

Manchu wrote:It's disingenuous to call yourself a fanboy when you're actually an employee churning out product. Calling yourself a fanboy is something of a marketing strategy itself, especially in the context of an apology for your employer, and it becomes an intolerable bit of self-delusion when you juxtapose against it against trivializing your fans and their experience of the franchise.

With the greatest respect, that's absolutely disgusting. A genuinely disgusting, sceptical, snide and dehumanising attitude. Great soundbite, but no application in reality. The reality was that I got in huge trouble for posting that (I'm almost always in trouble for one reason or another) because GW has little inclination to discuss it. The prevailing attitude is just to not mention it much at all. And there was no implied "apology for your employer". I'm just a freelancer. They're one of my publishers, nothing more. A beloved one, admittedly, but they hardly own my soul. I wrote it because I love the license, and I love discussing it, and highlighting things people never get the chance to see. That's literally it.

And I rarely use the term "fanboy", let alone apply it to myself. Maybe once in that article? While gushing about the license I love? How should I react, exactly? People ask me constantly about the hobby, and if I play X, Y or Z. I already post on several forums about it, as well as it being mentioned on my blog and Facebook a great deal. There's no scheming, sneering plot to appear in a certain way, and it's a little sinister you'd assume (indeed, insist) there is. What can I do in this context, exactly? It seems a matter of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

What you're objecting to is that fact people seem to like the fact I game, and that I talk about it on the same level, rather than as an author who trickles out that ancient trope: "I'd love to play, but I don't have time." There's no need to assume malice or some artificial marketing nonsense. Dude, seriously, some people just like to game. I don't think you game to look any cooler as a Mod. Same rule applies. I don't even go out of my way to talk about it a lot and throw it in people's faces. I don't play up some nonsensical 'people's champion' silliness. People constantly ask me about it. I didn't start by fostering the image of it; why would that even occur to me? (I'm not exactly a planner.) It comes up when it comes up, and people have reacted well to it.

Seriously. Very, very sinister suspicions. You gave me a lot of malicious motivations, and I can't quite work out why.

EDIT: I should add, I'm not annoyed or anything. Sliiiiiightly uncomfortable, but I assume, insist, and accuse people in various licenses of way worse schemes and way more sinister plots. It's all good; I think I know where you're coming from. It's easy to assume these things a lot of the time.

EDIT II: THE REVENGE OF EDITING: All the typos, ever.

EDIT III: EDIT HARDER: Yet more typos. Someone get me an editor.

Verbally tabled. lol

Just tab over to another thread Manchu. Don't even reply.

Maybe if they get a new codex, Ward will write them. They'll be sure to get a few victories then

But at what cost...

Also, hi there, ADB! o/ Cool to see a post from you here, especially on a topic like this. As for Manchu's post, I think part of his perception (not that stuff about fan treatment) stems from that blog article being a bit vague and possibly defensive. The latter is understandable, given that you're talking about your own work and likely do not appreciate it being considered "just another opinion" when you would, or so I assume, rather try to leave your mark on the franchise, like many of us might dream to.

In the end, perhaps it is not as ... "clear-cut" as Gav Thorpe's blogpost on the subject of canon, or even Andy Hoare's small comment in yours. Maybe it's my personal thirst for clarification on the subject, but "it's all real and none of it is real" is, to me, too much of an oxymoron. I realize what you meant, but without exact clarification it creates more confusion when your intention was the opposite.

Thanks for writing about that stuff at all, though. I wish more authors would try to clear up this mess, as I agree that people "being left in the dark" isn't very helpful to the fandom as a whole. It creates too much confusion and too much of a drive to sort "wrong fluff" from "right fluff", or attempt to treat any and all personal interpretations as gospel just because they were published under the label - I fell victim to this myself until I realized the mistake, and your article actually did play a role in that.

Lynata wrote:...stems from that blog article being a bit vague and possibly defensive. The latter is understandable, given that you're talking about your own work and likely do not appreciate it being considered "just another opinion" when you would, or so I assume, rather try to leave your mark on the franchise, like many of us might dream to.

I don't see it as defensive (it's not my license, I don't own it, I just enjoy sharing how it works - and I don't really see it as defensive because apart from the joke email at the start, I've barely ever been 'attacked' about the IP or canon at all, ever), but it's definitely vague. That's because... there's nothing else. What I spilled out in the article is the alpha and the omega of the subject. There's nothing else to learn on the matter. Not because I wrote a genius article, but because there's simply no more information. That's how the company treats canon. End of story.

There's that episode of Futurama where Bender has that tiny species living on his chestplate, talking to him all the time, believing he's God; and when they're about to die, they say they'll "Be with you soon, Lord." And his reply? "You're with me now. This is the maximum level of being with me." It's sorta like that. There's no more detail to be had. That article is the maximum level of GW canon explanation there is. I wish it wasn't, trust me. I did it because there was nothing else out there to link to, though. I felt like someone had to say something.

Lynata wrote:Maybe it's my personal thirst for clarification on the subject, but "it's all real and none of it is real" is, to me, too much of an oxymoron. I realize what you meant, but without exact clarification it creates more confusion when your intention was the opposite.

Sort of. I mean, I see your point, but this is a preference thing, and not a failing in the IP. The IP works fine. The flaw is in the way canon is communicated, because it so rarely gets a mention. The flaw is in how people try to apply other licenses' attitudes to canon, then blame 40K for not making sense. Well, no, of course not. That's like assuming a tree is a banana tree, then saying it's wrong for having apples in its branches. The tree's fine. The expectation is what was wrong. The guy who sold the tree who never made it clear what kind of tree it was surely takes some of the blame, too.

Yeah, a lot of people prefer situations of clear-cut canon, like Star Wars, where all that jazz is delineated up to 11, but it's wrong to assume "It's all true and nothing is true" is a bug, when it's a feature - or, worse, to assume it's "a marketing strategy". Like, to dismiss it as just that? That's not just ludicrously disrespectful to the people behind the license, it's also arrogant and uninformed, to just blithely insist that's all it is, just because someone would prefer it if it was X, when it's really Y.

"It's all true and nothing is true" looks, at first, like it's limiting, rather than freeing or empowering. Some people will never, ever prefer it, no matter what. That doesn't mean the guy pointing it out is being defensive about it, just because he happens to see value in it. It took me years to see that value. I like it now, but it took a long-ass time for me to come around to that way of thinking.

Don't get me wrong, I shared the desire for personal clarification for a long time, but once I learned that wasn't how the license worked, it didn't bother me anymore. That's not how the license works. It's not worth my anger, or my insisting that it should work that way. Every creator, contributor, player and reader sees it all in their own way, from a selection of the information offered. 10 years ago, that vagueness infuriated me. Now I think that freedom is awesome. Without it, 40K would suffer severely, given the fact it's a setting with such, uh, colourful roots. Change, clarification, evolution, development... everything that's come since Rogue Trader has come because it's all true and nothing is true. Some bad, some good, all dependent on personal taste. Mostly good, I reckon.

"It's all true and none of it's true" means, at its core: "There is no canon. There's a variety of sources, many of which conflict, but every single one is a lens through which we can see the 40K setting."

From Marc Gascoigne's explanation:

"Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...

Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. if it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumour that may or may not have any truth behind it.

Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumours, distorted legends and half-truths.

I think the real problem for me, and I speak for no other, is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And for me, that's the end of it.

Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note that answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".

But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.

It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nucelar war; that nails it for me."

Do you think that 40k would be better or worse if they did a reboot/continuity tidy up every now and again or not ?

Like Paramount did with Trek

.. bad example there perhaps...

like DC comics do every XX years.

Chance to say that this is in whilst that is out and so on.

I'll hand it to you, Aaron, your forum posts are as colorful as your fiction. I'm flattered to be the subject of a genuine Dembski-Bowden study in villainy. I posted what I confess to be mostly vitriol two months ago, long enough ago that I had entirely forgotten I even wrote it and had to hunt it down after you PMed me about it. I was able to find it quickly because it was your only post on Dakka since three months before. You broke your three-month absence from our little community to swoop in to defend yourself.

But anyway, like I said, I admit that my posts were pretty vitriolic. As to why so, well, I found your point to be (I'll borrow a phrase from you) absolutely disgusting. Even clarified here to myself and Lynata, I still think it's bollocks. You yourself just posted that GW is intentionally vague about this "everything/nothing is canon" mentality, going so far as to scold you for even discussing it -- and yet at the same time, you insist this is more than a business scheme. You're right, I shouldn't manufacture explanations for why you'd insist this is anything but absurd and I do (really, all joking aside) apologize for having done so before.

But even taking the sting out of it, I still disagree. The "narrative first" approach to continuity is indeed liberating but it's not what GW does. The best BL book ever published is stamped "heretical tome," after all. This isn't a multiverse that embraces the wild excursions of talented imaginations. It's a business proposition that rewards sales with pseudo-canonicity. As a comicbook fan, I'm cool with that. What irks me is pretending that it's something profound. If it was so profound, then why would you get into trouble for talking about it?

Dead Blue Clown wrote:Yeah, a lot of people prefer situations of clear-cut canon, like Star Wars, where all that jazz is delineated up to 11, but it's wrong to assume "It's all true and nothing is true" is a bug, when it's a feature - or, worse, to assume it's "a marketing strategy".

Don't get me wrong, I understand the meaning behind it, I just don't quite agree with the way this formula is worded. Whilst "nothing is true" does not pose any problems by itself, the "it's all true" part does not work when so many bits of fluff contradict each other. It makes more sense when one considers the aspect of perspective (or an individual author's interpretation/preference), but even then it's more like "all can be true" rather than "all is true". Small but (possibly) important difference, at least in a debate about a topic as important as this, where any and all quotes are generally placed on golden scales. I have no idea whether this idiom actually works outside of Germany...

It's further complicated by the books being written not like a historical record (which, like all historical records, can be flawed) but in 3rd person observer + present time, so I guess it's no wonder that many take everything they read as a supposedly accurate depiction.

The "market strategy" bit likely comes from GW avoiding to clarify the issue. It would be comparatively easy to issue a formal statement making everything obvious, but as this may result in some people (the ones clinging solely to the "it's all true" stance) placing less value on the products, this may be interpreted as intention (and thus a market strategy) when it's possibly just laziness/disinterest (the powers-that-be regarding it as a non-issue).

I do like the banana-tree comparison, though. Expectations are the big issue here, and not in the least because much of the fandom continues to propagate them to newcomers. It's how I picked them up "back then", though experiences with other franchises as well as a lack of a properly communicated official stance did play a role as well.

reds8n wrote: Do you think that 40k would be better or worse if they did a reboot/continuity tidy up every now and again or not ?

Doesn't GW already do that, as far as their codices are concerned?

If this refers to BL, I think the whole point of the issue is that there is no actual continuity - and many authors seem to prefer it this way, as it provides them with much more freedom to exert their own ideas. Especially in cases where, as ADB wrote in his blog, "X sucks, and so does the guy writing it".

Manchu wrote:I'll hand it to you, Aaron, your forum posts are as colorful as your fiction. I'm flattered to be the subject of a genuine Dembski-Bowden study in villainy. I posted what I confess to be mostly vitriol two months ago, long enough ago that I had entirely forgotten I even wrote it and had to hunt it down after you PMed me about it. I was able to find it quickly because it was your only post on Dakka since three months before. You broke your three-month absence from our little community to swoop in to defend yourself.

I have the beginnings of a thrilling headcold, and I'm sleeping a mighty 2-3 hours a night thanks to a recent spawning. But I still can't believe I thread-necro'd like that. Oh, man. I blame distraction. I did that "THIS MUST BE TODAY" thing and posted right away. (Incidentally, I was here logged-out and looking for Obliterator conversion ideas to steal. Don't judge me. Don't you dare.)

Anyway. Blah. My point is this: I getcha. I think it's a Marmite kinda thing. Love? Hate? Understand why people eat the scrapings of fermented filth? Never comprehend why someone would subject their tongue to such an assault? And so on.

I think what I failed to say with any clarity is that I get what GW mean (...after many, many years of not getting it) but even I don't think it's the most elegant solution. I just sorta run with it because I like it, and it makes sense to me at this point of my hobbying. I wouldn't genuinely try to convince everyone in the world it's flawless (though I do think it has a lot of awesomeness in it). It could definitely be worded better (re: Lynata's point), but I was careful to go with a direct quote in that instance. An oft-used one, at that.

Like, I don't think it's profound. It was certainly a massive headsplosion for me when it clicked after they kept explaining it, but my, uh, awe(?) comes from seeing how all the stuff I'd seen as canon conflicts and genuine errors started to look more like intentional retcons, clever subversions, and alternate takes on the lore - along with, of course, some genuine errors. I don't think it's a profound concept, but I do think it's quite unique as an IP standpoint, and that counts. That's certainly what made me go "...oh," when they explained it. "Multiverse" has connotations that aren't entirely accurate, but it's closer to that than, say, Star Wars. Ultimately, it's a different thing to everyone, and you choose the perspectives you prefer.

As to me being in trouble for the column, I think it comes down to GW not liking one person's viewpoint to ever be taken as gospel. I mean, I ran that by several people in the company, some involved right in the IP Department, and said "Before I post this, this is how it works, right?" But I can still see why GW itself doesn't want any one designer / author / freelancer / former employee / whatever's opinion standing the test of time online. I mean, what if it changes? Etc. etc. I can criticise GW as much as anyone, but that makes business sense, so I don't tend to rage against that particular machine.

As to the vitriol; no harm, no foul. I've assumed way worse things about much worthier people. Let's do beer. Or a smoothie. I'm open to either.

All my ranting aside, here is my real point:

Fluff discussions are how fans transform the bitter experience of being (ineffectually) marketed to into the meaningful experience of exploration and enjoyment.

I don't think GW's IP People or even the authors, as nice as I'm sure they all are IRL, get to take credit for that transformation -- and especially not as a result of allowing the setting to blow hither and thither as the brand identity developed. As to not wanting you to be laying down the word on canon, well, even that is a bit iffy: after all, we've all been quoting Gav Thorpe on this for years and years.

In the end, I don't think companies and consumers can really overcome their inherent conflicts of interest to meaningfully "collaborate" on the experience of fandom. We've been making that assumption ("they really care") for so long despite it never being the case. Kickstarter is premised on this myth, for example. This seems a bitter remark (whatever, I like the pith of it), but the GW IP doesn't really merit the fan base it enjoys. To me, the "loose canon" mentality kind of proves that.

Dead Blue Clown wrote: Let's do beer.

It'll be on me, one way or another.

In the end, I don't think companies and consumers can really overcome their inherent conflicts of interest to meaningfully "collaborate" on the experience of fandom. We've been making that assumption ("they really care") for so long despite it never being the case. Kickstarter is premised on this myth, for example. This seems a bitter remark (whatever, I like the pith of it), but the GW IP doesn't really merit the fan base it enjoys. To me, the "loose canon" mentality kind of proves that.

Eh... as a long-time fan of the 40K setting (going back some 20 years now) I... can't really agree with that. The 40K setting is pretty fething cool, it combines elements from so many other things that I, personally, find cool that it becomes greater than the sum of its parts. Sci-Fi, in all its flavors? Cool. Dystopian fiction? Cool. Military fiction? Cool. Cloak-and-dagger and noir detective tales? Cool. Altered/Subverted Western Religion Tropes? Cool. Ripped dudes and hot chicks in power armor smashing some dude's face through a concrete wall? Cool. Zombies? Pirates? Rebels? Magic? Angels? Demons? Monsters and aliens? Judge Dredd? Elves in Space? Orcs in Space? All cool.

So, taken in its entirety, I *do* think the 40K IP is worthy of the fan base it has attracted, simply because, for fans of sci-fi, it offers something for pretty much nearly everyone, even if we disagree on the fine details.

I don't think we're talking about the same thing.

What I mean is that the devotion to reading all the books and putting a lot of thought into them and trying to conceive of this coherently ... well, GW doesn't support it at all. In fact, they actively oppose it because it might get in the way of turning Necrons into Tomb Kings or something similar. That's different from saying Tomb King Necrons aren't cool.

Hmm... sort of. I think, for an individual or a group of friends that game together in the 40K setting, a sense of coherency and continuity is important, but your local gaming group is not my local gaming group, and so our versions of 40K do not need to be consistent.

Our group, for example, has a lot of Star Wars fans in it, so our "version" of 40K has a lot more droids in roles that may normally be filled by servitors. Frequently, when their Inquisition or Rogue Trader characters dock their voidship somewhere, there's bound to be a G0NK 'droid making its way around to recharge various devices and machines that run on electrical power. Our RT group even keeps one in the armory for keeping the las-gun power packs charged and operational. It's similar, but not *quite* the same 40K as others may use, where this action is done by a servitor, or some peon cog-polisher.

Somewhere, Kanluwen's head just exploded.

My work here is done.

I think mine did, too...

Manchu wrote:Somewhere, Kanluwen's head just exploded.

My head's okay, but thanks for being concerned.

oops

For SoB being heroes... And this goes for the whole imperium.

Petting a cat does not excuse killing a thousand others.

Heroes are judged by their actions, not their morals.

 OldSkoolGoff wrote:
oops

Oh, some necro!
Were you inspired by the recent release of Nagash?

-looks at the army of angry undead ghost space marines, saints frying daemons with golden energy despite being non-psykers, Living Saints, acts of faith, the GEOM visiting a near dead space marine, and Ciaphus Cain-

Yup. Pretty sure the GEOM is a warp entity at this point and SOB are indeed backed up by a warp god, along with everyone else in the Imperium. I mean really, the LOTD kinda puts the final nail in the coffin considering they're now described as actual ghosts if not even daemon-like by the new codex and the LOTD novel.

There isn't really any debate over whether or not the GEOM is a warp god, he clearly is at this point.

EDIT

And goddammit it's a necro.

Since we're on the necro-kick...

... This is how FFG has been presenting the GEOM without outright stating it... but the Acts of Faith are so obviously, overtly, cannot-deny-it-without-looking-stupid flat-out miracle-magic that there is obviously some Warp Entity powering them.

Which is kinda stupid, really, but, then again, 40K has been getting kinda stupid lately in the fluff, with things like Murder McMurderson from planet MurderAllTheThings and so on...

And then there is Assholetep.

 Psienesis wrote:
Murder McMurderson from planet MurderAllTheThings

So... Angron?

 Psienesis wrote:

... This is how FFG has been presenting the GEOM without outright stating it... but the Acts of Faith are so obviously, overtly, cannot-deny-it-without-looking-stupid flat-out miracle-magic that there is obviously some Warp Entity powering them.

But then again it is FFG, it is not proper GW fluff, so I'd just ignore it. It has about same level of validity as the 40K computer games.

 Crimson wrote:
But then again it is FFG, it is not proper GW fluff, so I'd just ignore it. It has about same level of validity as the 40K computer games.

Well, Dawn of War has been treating Sisters way better than GW, so…
And I like this voice acting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfdYl4vPyKA

 Melissia wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Murder McMurderson from planet MurderAllTheThings

So... Angron?

No, this was about the Murderwolf who use his Murderfang and his Murderclaw to murder everything on planet Omnicide, or something like that.