After watching the Avergers movie and pondering quite a lot about the power level of the heavy hitters of the Marvel universe, I began to wonder wha twould be the outcome of such an invasion. Naturally, I thought Dakka would be an adequate place to hold such a debate. The premises are few and simple:
-The Imperium wants the planet relatively intact, so any form of Exterminatus is not an option.
-The Imperium can only dispose of the forces it would normally use to perform a similar opperation (meaning it can't just throw every Space Marine in the galaxy at the Earth or land a few thousand Titans on it).
-Both heroes and villians (to a certain extent) will fight together to defend their planet.
-Earth is fully aware of the incoming invasion.
-The time period in which this takes place is shortly after the Secret Invasion.
-Marvel's heavy hitters (Thor, Black Bolt, Hulk, Sentry...) would stand on a level similar to that of a Primarch. This may be open to discussion if there is too much disgression about it.
-The Imperium can ward themselves against any attempt from Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom or any spellcaster to banish them all (or any similar spell that would end the conflict abruptly).
Belexar wrote:After watching the Avergers movie and pondering quite a lot about the power level of the heavy hitters of the Marvel universe, I began to wonder wha twould be the outcome of such an invasion. Naturally, I thought Dakka would be an adequate place to hold such a debate. The premises are few and simple:
-The Imperium wants the planet relatively intact, so any form of Exterminatus is not an option.
-The Imperium can only dispose of the forces it would normally use to perform a similar opperation (meaning it can't just throw every Space Marine in the galaxy at the Earth or land a few thousand Titans on it).
-Both heroes and villians (to a certain extent) will fight together to defend their planet.
-Earth is fully aware of the incoming invasion.
-The time period in which this takes place is shortly after the Secret Invasion.
-Marvel's heavy hitters (Thor, Black Bolt, Hulk, Sentry...) would stand on a level similar to that of a Primarch. This may be open to discussion if there is too much disgression about it.
-The Imperium can ward themselves against any attempt from Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom or any spellcaster to banish them all (or any similar spell that would end the conflict abruptly).
The fact of the matter is having even a couple of ships in orbit will give the Imperium a huge advantage. Even assuming their ships wouldn't be able to detect the Helicarrier, it would only take a lance strike or two to obliterate it.
I can't think of many instances that couldn't be solved by application of Imperial Navy firepower.
Hazardous Harry wrote:The fact of the matter is having even a couple of ships in orbit will give the Imperium a huge advantage. Even assuming their ships wouldn't be able to detect the Helicarrier, it would only take a lance strike or two to obliterate it.
I can't think of many instances that couldn't be solved by application of Imperial Navy firepower.
The avengers with the highest chance of survival would be Thor and Hulk, since they are both so damned resilient.
Everyone else dies.
The Hulk would do some significant amount of damage, but would eventually succumb to the sheer amount of lascannon fire. Not sure if he would die though.
Same deal with Thor, I guess.
And this is not including the involvement of psykers.
I reckon that iron Man & War Machine could do a good job of wrecking Imperial face when the fight gets dirstside. they'd probably tear up a few landers too on their own....
Of course, eventually their armour would get frazzled by magma cannons and Earthshaker shells!
Alexzandvar wrote:Well it would probably turn out like this...
Send the PDF! They are good at getting slaughtered to a man!
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Lord of Timbraxia wrote:I reckon that iron Man & War Machine could do a good job of wrecking Imperial face when the fight gets dirstside. they'd probably tear up a few landers too on their own....
Of course, eventually their armour would get frazzled by magma cannons and Earthshaker shells!
And lascannons and melta guns. I doubt the Iron Man suit can take a direct hit from a melta gun, I really do.
I mean, that thing can wreck Land Raiders, which are a lot more resilient than the Iron Man suit.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:The avengers with the highest chance of survival would be Thor and Hulk, since they are both so damned resilient.
Everyone else dies.
The Hulk would do some significant amount of damage, but would eventually succumb to the sheer amount of lascannon fire. Not sure if he would die though. Same deal with Thor, I guess. And this is not including the involvement of psykers.
that is fine for some of the avengers, but how about the rest of them?
Like Quicksilver, The Vision (Who has a a diamond-hard near invulnerability), the fantastic 4, Quasar, The Red Hulk (Yea there are two Hulks you have to deal with) and many more.
Not to mention the X-Men, and Magneto, who could turn titans into slag in an instant...
DeathReaper wrote: Magneto, who could turn titans into slag in an instant...
Get a regiment that is from a feral world and uses wood and stone weapons. Charge headlong into him. Also is there a range limit to Magneto's powers? If there is than the titans could just kill him from hundreds of miles away.
If worst comes to worst a few vortex missiles or grenades could bring down the hulk, red hulk, and Thor.
Alexzandvar wrote:Well it would probably turn out like this...
That isn't how the guard works, they would engage him with bayonets to keep him distracted while a thousand basilisks open fire.
This would be hugely funny. Marvel's Earth would be the greatest concentration of Alpha and above psykers the Imperium as ever met, probably even including the entire Eye.
But honestly all it takes is Deadpool to take an interest, and you'll soon have him juggling with the Emperor's bones. Alternatively, let Cable infect all Imperium machinery with his techno-virus.
Kovnik Obama wrote:This would be hugely funny. Marvel's Earth would be the greatest concentration of Alpha and above psykers the Imperium as ever met, probably even including the entire Eye.
But honestly all it takes is Deadpool to take an interest, and you'll soon have him juggling with the Emperor's bones. Alternatively, let Cable infect all Imperium machinery with his techno-virus.
Yes but can they stop time and go back into time and kill all of their mothers?
Lottrup wrote:Magneto takes a Lascannon to the face.........
As far as i know light is'nt magnetic......
Mvh.
When the barrel of that Lascannon looks like a pretzel, it is going to be tough to get a accurate shot on him...
Buttons wrote:Get a regiment that is from a feral world and uses wood and stone weapons. Charge headlong into him. Also is there a range limit to Magneto's powers? If there is than the titans could just kill him from hundreds of miles away.
wood and stone weapons are fine, but are easily countered by Magneto.
There is no known range limit to Magneto's Powers.
Kovnik Obama wrote:This would be hugely funny. Marvel's Earth would be the greatest concentration of Alpha and above psykers the Imperium as ever met, probably even including the entire Eye.
But honestly all it takes is Deadpool to take an interest, and you'll soon have him juggling with the Emperor's bones. Alternatively, let Cable infect all Imperium machinery with his techno-virus.
Yea that is about how it would go. The Punisher, Wolverine, Deadpool, Colossus, Cable, Jean Grey (Pheonix) the Imperium could not stand up to that.
and lets not forget Forge, who has intuitive knowledge of how to construct and understand anything of a mechanical nature, so now the Marvel Universe has all the tech that the Imperium brings as well...
Deadshot wrote:Magneto crushes all armies bar Nids. Hulk kills nids. Thor electricutes Necrons. Iron Man, meh.
If superman was about, game over.
This is marvel.
Not DC Anyway.
Magneto would I think work for the Imperium seeing as he would like how they are ruled by a pysker which is basically a mutant. Plus untouchables. Bye bye super powers.
Grey knights + Witch Seekers. = Dead Marvel Universe.
Or. You know a PLanet Killer.
If worst comes to worst a few vortex missiles or grenades could bring down the hulk, red hulk, and Thor.
You do know that nothing, nothing can kill the Hulk but his own cancer, right? He will literally ressurect under all other known circumstances. The only thing that could be done would be to trap it in the Warp, Draigo style. And he would find a way out, eventually, and beat the crap of whoever put it there. There is no beating the Hulk (unless your Spidey). There is simply avoiding him until death comes another way.
And most Marvel big hitters would rape most Primarchs. You think smashing titans apart is a feat of psychik power? How about making the world a part of your psyche?
Lottrup wrote:Magneto takes a Lascannon to the face.........
As far as i know light is'nt magnetic......
Mvh.
When the barrel of that Lascannon looks like a pretzel, it is going to be tough to get a accurate shot on him...
Buttons wrote:Get a regiment that is from a feral world and uses wood and stone weapons. Charge headlong into him. Also is there a range limit to Magneto's powers? If there is than the titans could just kill him from hundreds of miles away.
wood and stone weapons are fine, but are easily countered by Magneto.
There is no known range limit to Magneto's Powers.
Kovnik Obama wrote:This would be hugely funny. Marvel's Earth would be the greatest concentration of Alpha and above psykers the Imperium as ever met, probably even including the entire Eye.
But honestly all it takes is Deadpool to take an interest, and you'll soon have him juggling with the Emperor's bones. Alternatively, let Cable infect all Imperium machinery with his techno-virus.
Yea that is about how it would go. The Punisher, Wolverine, Deadpool, Colossus, Cable, Jean Grey (Pheonix) the Imperium could not stand up to that.
and lets not forget Forge, who has intuitive knowledge of how to construct and understand anything of a mechanical nature, so now the Marvel Universe has all the tech that the Imperium brings as well...
Chaos Daemons and Kaldor Drago
Oh and just for kicks. The Enslavers
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Kovnik Obama wrote:
If worst comes to worst a few vortex missiles or grenades could bring down the hulk, red hulk, and Thor.
You do know that nothing, nothing can kill the Hulk but his own cancer, right? He will literally ressurect under all other known circumstances. The only thing that could be done would be to trap it in the Warp, Draigo style. And he would find a way out, eventually, and beat the crap of whoever put it there. There is no beating the Hulk (unless your Spidey). There is simply avoiding him until death comes another way.
And most Marvel big hitters would rape most Primarchs. You think smashing titans apart is a feat of psychik power? How about making the world a part of your psyche?
vortex missile pulls you to another dimension he would be trapped.
Alpha Plus pyskers would kill Everything
Deadshot wrote:Hulk lifts Thor's hammer. You cannot lift Thor's hammer without being Thor. Does 40k have an equivile.t.
Yes. The God Killers. CHAOS.
You cannot pick up a daemon blade without getting corrupted.
Only the pure can pick it up and not feel the effects. or Your pretty stubborn SOB.
Daemon Blades, Witch Blades, daemon/Thunderhammers and any other xenos weapons are made out of metals that are not from this world. Plus in close quarters astartes would just pummel magneto. As Ceramite is not metal.
DeathReaper wrote:#1 this is The Imperium invading Vanilla Marvel Earth (Not Chaos)
#2 There is always metal around, Chainswords, Bolters wiring from the Astartes armor, Astartes lose against Magneto.
#3 All that Tech you just listed? Forge now can make them as well.
Forge?
You do realize Daemon Blades are not able to be made by mortals right? They are made by daemons. Plus the Alpha Pyskers would rip a whole in the earth and kill us all.
DeathReaper wrote:#1 this is The Imperium invading Vanilla Marvel Earth (Not Chaos)
#2 There is always metal around, Chainswords, Bolters wiring from the Astartes armor, Astartes lose against Magneto.
#3 All that Tech you just listed? Forge now can make them as well.
Forge?
You do realize Daemon Blades are not able to be made by mortals right? They are made by daemons. Plus the Alpha Pyskers would rip a whole in the earth and kill us all.
Forge is no mere mortal.
Rip a whole in the earth and kill us all? as Deadshot said:
Deadshot wrote:... that is disallowed as they want the planet.
And there are more Alpha + Psykers in one major Earthly city than in any given area of the Imperium. (possibly an hyperbole... but only possibly)
Xavier's son was at least on the same level as Tzeentch, psychik power wise. That is, he could create his own dimension based on his psyche, and pull a world in it.
I don't even think you need the restrictions you placed on the Imperium.
Hulk, by himself, can handle just about everything the Imperium can throw at him.
Frank Richards can win by himself. He can control reality completely.
Throw in any of the immortal characters (Galactus, Mr. Sinister, etc.)
The mutant contingent can handle the entirety of the Imperial Army (if you want to, just throw Wolverine at them, and eventually he'll win). Cable laughs at lasers, Magneto laughs at everything else. Prof X, Jean, and the other mutant psykers can handle the Imperium's.
And this is barely scratching the surface. I think this is one of the few(ish) times that the Imperium gets beat hands down.
The Marvel Universe is one of the few that is as over the top as 40k. Marvel would very likely win since there are single characters from marvel earth (I am going to limit marvels use of characters like the phoenix, shuma, and other god entities.) that could hold the planet by themselves against the imperium.
The earth can not be taken by the Imperium. You have characters like magneto who can grab onto a piece of metal lightyears away and pull it back to earth. The imperium would be like the skrull invasion, except the skrull are a lot nastier than the guardsmen the imperium would be sending (however I would say your average marine is better than your average skrull) and the skrull lost even after disabling every piece of stark tech on the planet and they had the element of surprise.
Now stark tech is working, so all earths defense systems are up and running and they are expecting you? Hell if they wanted there is nothing stopping the earth from sending its heavier hitters up into space and stopping the imperium from ever landing a single troop on the ground.
And as much as I hate the hulk as other people have said he is basically a planet defense system by himself. And then there is grey hulk and red hulk.
Marvel vs Nids would already open up a few more interesting lanes.
Imagine a Bio-Titan bio-engineered specifically for the purpose of keeping the Hulk constantly regenerating in his digestive system.
In fact screw that, imagine what happens when Cable get's eaten/escapes by infecting the Nids with the Techno-Virus. Boom. Everyone loses right there.
I am amazed the fan-spank on Hulk. Any average Space Marine (or Aspect Warrior or whathaveyou) can pull a Blonsky on him without breaking a sweat. But unlike Blonsky, they come in groups of 10 (or even more), not alone.
Also, Initiative 10 Epistolarian (or Mephiston) + ForceWeapon Insta-Death = dead Hulk before he can get a single swing in.
I don't see the part where the Hulk lost, plus Comic!Hulk is a lot tougher than Movie!Hulk.
Hell, the only way the smartest minds on 616 could come up with to beat the Hulk was to sent him somewhere else, and that led to World War Hulk. the only reason that ended was through a Deus Ex Machina via Iron Man
Holy crap are you ever wrong. This is as much fan-swank as would be saying that in a God vs the Imperium, God would obviously win. The Hulk's regenerative capacities are well beyond that of the Emperor, who could survive death with a little help. Hulk doesn't need help. His organs will rebuild themselves, they will put themselves back where they belong if they are displaced, and he will be up and running less than 20 minutes after being pulled apart and shredded. Wolverine can regenerate from his bone marrow as long as there is radioactivity in the area ; Hulks can regenerate from his quantum foam at any given moment.
and
Mephiston
Is laughable. Spider-Man could eat Mephiston.
BTW, Marvel also code their characters on a skill scale of 1-10. It's less precise than GW's (I think it's only CC, Endurance, Powers and Intelligence), but as a basis for comparison, even the 'weaker' heroes would be more than a match for a SM. Deadpool is CC 8 or 9, and he doesn't have anything boosting his offensive power.
Marvel is a world in which Death falls in love with humans based on how well they curbstomp the average Gods. The Imperium holds no chance whatsoever...
Zweischneid wrote:I am amazed the fan-spank on Hulk. Any average Space Marine (or Aspect Warrior or whathaveyou) can pull a Blonsky on him without breaking a sweat. But unlike Blonsky, they come in groups of 10 (or even more), not alone.
Also, Initiative 10 Epistolarian (or Mephiston) + ForceWeapon Insta-Death = dead Hulk before he can get a single swing in.
You do realize that Hulk beats EVERY super hero. Comic book Hulk and movie Hulk are two very different beings. Comic book Hulk just gets stronger, faster, and regenerates more the more you hurt him.
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Kovnik Obama wrote:Marvel vs Nids would already open up a few more interesting lanes.
Imagine a Bio-Titan bio-engineered specifically for the purpose of keeping the Hulk constantly regenerating in his digestive system.
In fact screw that, imagine what happens when Cable get's eaten/escapes by infecting the Nids with the Techno-Virus. Boom. Everyone loses right there.
Again, Marvel no contest. There are way too many uber-powerful beings in the Marvel Universe.
You do realize that Hulk beats EVERY super hero. Comic book Hulk and movie Hulk are two very different beings. Comic book Hulk just gets stronger, faster, and regenerates more the more you hurt him.
Nah. Doc Octopus for example owned him. He's tough, no doubt about it,.. but not invincible.
Spoiler:
And of course Batman did too. But that was to be expected. Batman always wins! Lucky he's not Marvel technically.
Spoiler:
Wolverine also beat him (as well as being beaten by him). So I assume guys like Shrike or a talented LC-Termy would also have a good 50/50 against the Hulk
Zweischneid wrote:I am amazed the fan-spank on Hulk. Any average Space Marine (or Aspect Warrior or whathaveyou) can pull a Blonsky on him without breaking a sweat. But unlike Blonsky, they come in groups of 10 (or even more), not alone.
Also, Initiative 10 Epistolarian (or Mephiston) + ForceWeapon Insta-Death = dead Hulk before he can get a single swing in.
You missed the part in that video, where the Hulk DOES get ahold of Blonsky and turns all his bones to DUST. No, 10 Space Marines wouldnt be able to handle the Hulk. A chapter, fighting together, at the same time, against the Hulk, wouldnt be able to handle the fething Hulk. I think your missing the point everyone is driving with the Hulk
I think your missing the point everyone is driving with the Hulk
This. Marvel have made quite a few absolute statements regarding their characters. The Hulk being unkillable by any other means than his own radiation sickness (and that's not even sure) is one of them.
On the other side, no such absolute statements of invulnerability exists in 40K.
So one side as an unstoppable force, while the other lacks a immovable object. Do the math.
Right. I mean, it's one of the things that makes me less appreciate 40K fluff. Even the most badass marine looks like a rampaging bull in comparison to Iron Man. Hell, Vanko's military Bots could take on a chapter by themselves...
If worst comes to worst a few vortex missiles or grenades could bring down the hulk, red hulk, and Thor.
You do know that nothing, nothing can kill the Hulk but his own cancer, right? He will literally ressurect under all other known circumstances. The only thing that could be done would be to trap it in the Warp, Draigo style. And he would find a way out, eventually, and beat the crap of whoever put it there. There is no beating the Hulk (unless your Spidey). There is simply avoiding him until death comes another way.
And most Marvel big hitters would rape most Primarchs. You think smashing titans apart is a feat of psychik power? How about making the world a part of your psyche?
Lets see the hulk survive a SINGULARITY! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Wolverine vs. Draigo... Let the ultimate battle of Mary Sues begin....
Because, seriously. He survived a nuclear explosion centered on him. Apparently, you would have to decapitate him and seperate the head a good deal away from the body to kill him. Good luck getting through the adamantium spine, though. Of course, you could drown him. He still needs air, and he can't regenerate that.
And then you have the rest of the X-men. Cyclops rarely ever full-powers his optic weapon, but were he to, i believe it'd be like a turbo-laser. Colossus is basicly invunerable to anything, and is beastly strong. Beast can team up with Forge and Reed Richards to start making their own titans, and Jean Grey plus Xavier can start imploding the minds of everyone. Xavier could probably even link up to cerebro, and with a little help from Forge and Beast, could re-configure it to locate space marines via their unique gene signitures. Then, given an insignificant amount of time, he would kill every space marine on the planet, like he almost did in X-men 2. There goes the Imperium's perfect sword. And with a bit more work, forge will (not might, will) be able to figure out how to get it to target people from select different planets, like the gaurdsmen regiments, based on the slightly different genetic traits they would have.
Yeah, as ridiculously OTT40k is, Marvel tops it in over-the-topness. Is that even possible? For Marvel universe, yes.
Wolverine actually isn't as invincible in 40k as Marvel. As we have already seen, 40k has things quite capable of cutting or blasting through adamantium. Hell, just one meltagun shot and wolverine dies.
That's assuming that 40k adamantium is the sam as marvel adamantium. We don't know if it is or not, They just have the same names. Adamantium is a popular name for super-strong metals. Perhaps Belaxer can decide weather they are the same or not, to eliminate confusion.
Can wolverines adamantium melt under extreme heat?
If so, then a melta shot can proabably burn straight through him before his healing factor could kick in.
What matters is where though. Through the belly, he might survive. Through the heart...maybe not. In the head...yeah, he's gone, unless he can grow another brain.
Nope, in marvel, it's described as being totally indestructable. In fact, in X-men 2, striker mentions that the hard thing about molton adamantium is that you have to keep it hot so it stays in its liquid state, because once it hardens, it's indestructable. I take that to mean that striker found some in a liquidized state naturally, and had to keep it constantly molton, otherwise he would just leave it solid, and melt it whenever he needed to.
loota boy wrote:Nope, in marvel, it's described as being totally indestructable. In fact, in X-men 2, striker mentions that the hard thing about molton adamantium is that you have to keep it hot so it stays in its liquid state, because once it hardens, it's indestructable. I take that to mean that striker found some in a liquidized state naturally, and had to keep it constantly molton, otherwise he would just leave it solid, and melt it whenever he needed to.
...chemistry doesn't work like that. All substances come in three possible forms depending on its temperature.
It is possible that Marvel adamantium has a high heat capacity, meaning that it takes a lot of energy and heat in order for it to change temperature and melt, which is why Striker would want it to constantly be molten; it would take too much time and trouble to get it back to a molten state.
That said, melta is still pretty friggen hot. One might not be able to do it, but it sure as well will hurt, and the pain would allow for subsequent melta hits.
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Kaldor wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: unless he can grow another brain.
Or it's an entirely artificial material, produced in liquid state and kept hot until need. Wolverine was blasted completely apart many times, leaving only the adamantium structure and some bone marrow contained inside. Under normal circumstances he won't regenerate from that, but he won't be dead either. It isn't clear if Wolverine is actually killable. It's pretty clear that the Hulk isn't, tho (until Marvel decides to retcon that part).
Lets see the hulk survive a SINGULARITY! MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Actually, I think a good way to think of the Hulk would be as a biological singularity. He is as much a fixture of Marvel's universe as any other illogical phenomena in ours such as infinity or quantum behaviors.
Lottrup wrote:Magneto takes a Lascannon to the face.........
As far as i know light is'nt magnetic......
Mvh.
Magneto has an impenetrable force field and can wrap the lascannons into pretzels. Try again. If Marvel got to use anyone/everyone in it's forces, the Imperium of Man would get its collective arse handed to it. Magneto, Hulk, Thor, Sentry, Wolverine (near unkillable, stealth to make Raven Guard jealous, claws are questionable due to both sides having 'adamantium'-question is if it's the same material in both universes), Sentinels, Juggernaut/Colossus (same guy now-Piotr is both), fething PHOENIX (when she isn't dead)...and Strange, Doom, Xavier, White Queen, etc can deal with psykers. IoM doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell at this invasion. Best to leave this Earth alone.
Kovnik Obama wrote:Right. I mean, it's one of the things that makes me less appreciate 40K fluff. Even the most badass marine looks like a rampaging bull in comparison to Iron Man. Hell, Vanko's military Bots could take on a chapter by themselves...
So you can't appreciate 40k because Marvel is even more over the top and impossible than 40k?
Marvel makes 40k look like a tame and normal universe, just because of how over the top slowed everything is.
Of course, we are talking about comic books. What do we expect?
loota boy wrote:Nope, in marvel, it's described as being totally indestructable. In fact, in X-men 2, striker mentions that the hard thing about molton adamantium is that you have to keep it hot so it stays in its liquid state, because once it hardens, it's indestructable. I take that to mean that striker found some in a liquidized state naturally, and had to keep it constantly molton, otherwise he would just leave it solid, and melt it whenever he needed to.
...chemistry doesn't work like that. All substances come in three possible forms depending on its temperature.
It is possible that Marvel adamantium has a high heat capacity, meaning that it takes a lot of energy and heat in order for it to change temperature and melt, which is why Striker would want it to constantly be molten; it would take too much time and trouble to get it back to a molten state.
That said, melta is still pretty friggen hot. One might not be able to do it, but it sure as well will hurt, and the pain would allow for subsequent melta hits.
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Kaldor wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote: unless he can grow another brain.
He can.
How...is that possible? 0_o
He has: Wolverine Origins #26. Deadpool shoots him in the roof of his mouth, goes into the brain and rumbles around in there, turning it to jelly. An hour later, Wolverine wakes up. Oh, and we left out Ares too (before Sentry tore him in half). Marvel has a couple of gods, demi-gods and doesn't play fair. As to Cyclops optic blast, for an example of what he CAN do with it, and 99.999% of the time chooses not to do, watch the X-men Anime-people vaporize under the strength of his blast.
His bone marrow is trapped in his adamantium armor. If the frame is indestructible, then Wolverine is factually eternal.
Leave it to crazy Canadian scientists to accidentally create a God.
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So you can't appreciate 40k because Marvel is even more over the top and impossible than 40k?
In part because of Marvel, but mostly because Marvel, Star Wars, Star Trek, Dune, Farscape, hell, Iron Kingdoms, and most other IPs are better at both making believable the use of ''GODLY'' as a descriptive for their 'godly' characters, and at handling the differences of power between strong and weak characters in a manner that doesn't make most fighters irrelevant.
100 acid-spitting techno-barbarians can take and hold a civilized human world, and face adversaries that would otherwise doom UNTOLD BILLIONS (but I just told about them !?!)???? Not nearly believable. Now 100 Iron Man can take and hold a civilized human world? Any day of the week, and then some...
There are just certain threats that the IoM would be unable to counter.
The minute they reach orbit, Xavier+Cerebro could take control of every psychic pilot they had and crash all their ships into one another, they would never enter atmo.
Magneto could just pull their cruisers out of orbit, ala Starkiller in Force Unleashed. Any long range ordnance fired by the Imperial Navy would be negated by his protective field. You've got to get close enough for a meltagun, or even a lascannon. He can detect metals at the range of miles.
There are several Marvel entities that could sack a SM Chapter by themselves. Hulk, Thor, Colossunaut, Sentry, etc.
Wolverine could take the entire Imperial Guard landing force alone.
Even Exterminatus wouldn't be enough. There are beings at play that could not only survive it, but waste the entire attack fleet with but a hand wave.
IOM..... just fails against hulk. every shot would just make him bigger, angrier, and the IOMS weapons just wont do gak against him.
add the fact iron mans armor and weapons are tons more advanced then anything the imperium has.... just consider these two little words "Tank missile"
cap would have a tougher go of things, but would be a defensive nightmare. marines would have a lot of trouble bypassing his skill with that shield, and his speed and agility probally allows him to evade most of the imperiums tougher forces.
thor.... is thor. pretty much hulk level compared to IOM.
i wont even get into magneto and all the metal used in the IOMS stuff.... cause thats just gonna end badly
not to mention all the other characters... heck even venom or carnage would tear apart whatever they faced.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Can wolverines adamantium melt under extreme heat?
No.
If so, then a melta shot can proabably burn straight through him before his healing factor could kick in.
It wouldn't. And even if it did, his healing factor would just fix whatever you had hit.
What matters is where though. Through the belly, he might survive. Through the heart...maybe not. In the head...yeah, he's gone, unless he can grow another brain.
He'd survive all of those. He might get amnesia if you melted his brain, but he'd survive.
Kovnik Obama wrote:This would be hugely funny. Marvel's Earth would be the greatest concentration of Alpha and above psykers the Imperium as ever met, probably even including the entire Eye.
But honestly all it takes is Deadpool to take an interest, and you'll soon have him juggling with the Emperor's bones. Alternatively, let Cable infect all Imperium machinery with his techno-virus.
No one from the avengers would be even close to an alpha+
Some of the more OTT villains, maybe, but none of the avengers. MAYBE a delta/gamma or two (doctor strange?)
Anyways, the IoM would steamroll them. They routinely face things that would make galactus blush, like greater daemons, avatars of khaine etc.
Also, someone said ironman would wreck imperial gak? No. He is basically a crisis suit but more maneuverable, less protection, less powerful but more numerous weapons and an electric butler who talks to him. Basically throw on vectored retro thrusters.
Ummm.. Galacticus EATS planets. He EATS them. Nomnomnom. In one bite. And then, if that ain't enough for you, there's the beyonder, who swats even Galacticus aside like a gnat. The beyonder is basically God. Sooooooo yeah. We have God. GF.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Can wolverines adamantium melt under extreme heat?
No.
If so, then a melta shot can proabably burn straight through him before his healing factor could kick in.
It wouldn't. And even if it did, his healing factor would just fix whatever you had hit.
What matters is where though. Through the belly, he might survive. Through the heart...maybe not. In the head...yeah, he's gone, unless he can grow another brain.
He'd survive all of those. He might get amnesia if you melted his brain, but he'd survive.
No. if he was caught in a melta blast, there would be no organic matter left to start the healing process. Also, we know that adamantium cannot be melted after the 8 minute period, but nothing suggest it cannot be sublimated.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
loota boy wrote:Ummm.. Galacticus EATS planets. He EATS them. Nomnomnom. In one bite. And then, if that ain't enough for you, there's the beyonder, who swats even Galacticus aside like a gnat. The beyonder is basically God. Sooooooo yeah. We have God. GF.
Alpha+ accidentally destroy entire solar systems. They are much, much, much, much more powerful than galactus. Greater Daemons of tzeentch have more powerful sorcery than alpha+ psykers. Therefore, GD>Galactus. The beyonder is a pseudo god? We have literal gods, and LOTS of them. In fact, every faction that isn't FW or DE has gods, usually multiple. Gork+Mork would tear the beyonder a new one.
And eating planets is less impressive when you realize that khorne's sword alone can destroy them, so what could HE do?
It's no contest. The Beyonder wins. He can do anything. Literally anything. And he's Marvel universe. The Emperor and his forces have nothing on the Beyonder.
Titans come in?..the Beyonder turns them all into flowers.
The Imperium tries to bring in the Grey Knights?..The beyonder creates a replica of every single one of them, teleports them to an alternate reality and lets them duke it out for all eternity.
If you want to let the Imperium bring in the Exterminatus (yes, I know the ground rules say no, but still)...he would blink and the bombs would fall all over the Imperial fleet instead of earth.
If they brought every single marine force to earth to try to fight it out man to man the beyonder would turn every single person on earth into the Hulk...a planet with billions of hulks running around..
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Can wolverines adamantium melt under extreme heat?
No.
If so, then a melta shot can proabably burn straight through him before his healing factor could kick in.
It wouldn't. And even if it did, his healing factor would just fix whatever you had hit.
What matters is where though. Through the belly, he might survive. Through the heart...maybe not. In the head...yeah, he's gone, unless he can grow another brain.
He'd survive all of those. He might get amnesia if you melted his brain, but he'd survive.
No. if he was caught in a melta blast, there would be no organic matter left to start the healing process. Also, we know that adamantium cannot be melted after the 8 minute period, but nothing suggest it cannot be sublimated.
[size=9]Automatically Appended Next Post:[/size=9]
You seem to forget the ground rules of this discussion. It is imperium vs. Marvel, not 40k universe vs. Marvel. And not even the entire
imperium. This isn't a God vs. God debate. It is imperial invasion force vs. Marvel universe.
loota boy wrote:Ummm.. Galacticus EATS planets. He EATS them. Nomnomnom. In one bite. And then, if that ain't enough for you, there's the beyonder, who swats even Galacticus aside like a gnat. The beyonder is basically God. Sooooooo yeah. We have God. GF.
Alpha+ accidentally destroy entire solar systems. They are much, much, much, much more powerful than galactus. Greater Daemons of tzeentch have more powerful sorcery than alpha+ psykers. Therefore, GD>Galactus. The beyonder is a pseudo god? We have literal
gods, and LOTS of them. In fact, every faction that isn't FW or DE has gods, usually multiple. Gork+Mork would tear the beyonder a new
one.
And eating planets is less impressive when you realize that khorne's sword alone can destroy them, so what could HE do?
Bolded words are mine, sorry my iPhone is acting up.
The Marvel universe is one of the few that could not only hold its own vs 40k, but completely decimate it. professor x alone could mindwrip the whole planet, at will. The Hulk has been brought but..You. Can. Not.Stop.The.Hulk. If you are really lucky you can slow him, Good Ol Magneto can pull the earth off its axis at will, good luck bringing a fleet. Franklin Richards..just, Game over man, game over.And as for the Nids? Well already been there, done that. The brood did not do so hot, nor did any other Nid like beastly the MU has introduced over the years.
One other note. I would pay good money, No joke to see Deadpool run though a space Marine Chapter, wise creaking all the way.
Hazardous Harry wrote:The fact of the matter is having even a couple of ships in orbit will give the Imperium a huge advantage. Even assuming their ships wouldn't be able to detect the Helicarrier, it would only take a lance strike or two to obliterate it.
I can't think of many instances that couldn't be solved by application of Imperial Navy firepower.
I think the OP means a planetside fight.
The OP has stated they'd only have access to what resources they normally would when conquering a planet. So the Imperium will definitely have a few ships in orbit, enough to soften up the biggest threats before sending in the ground forces.
Really, Marvel Earth has pretty much nothing that will be able to take on the Imperial Navy. The only exception is maybe Magneto, but I'd assume that his powers have a range limit. Even if they didn't, it would only take a single weapons battery firing in his general direction to completely level everything for a few hundred kilometres. As for Professor Xavier, the Imperium would probably identify him as an Alpha Plus psyker immediately and bring up firing solutions very damn quickly. Alternatively, you might get a Pysker Squad powerful enough to take him on, it would only be a question of resources and how many psykers the Imperium would be willing to expend (quite a lot).
Anything else would be made a piece of cake due to Orbital Strikes. You probably wouldn't even need the Astartes for this.
Kaldor wrote:
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Alpha+ accidentally destroy entire solar systems
Don't be silly. 30 Alpha+ psykers were released into a hive world in the Eisenhorn series and were recaptured inside of a week.
They are incredibly powerful, but they aren't evaporating star systems with their minds.
They weren't Alpha Psykers. You need to read that book again, becuase while those pyskers were powerful (hence why someone wanted them) they were nowhere near the level of Alpha Psykers.
This is, however, a moot point. As far as I'm aware the Imperium errs on the side of caution and kills Alpha levels rather than attempt to capture them. And on the other hand, we're talking about Vanilla Marvel Earth, not the entire Marvel Universe. So Galactus and a few of the other big fellas are out of the equation as well.
Eh I read the book a few weeks back. They were each and every one a Rogue Alpha level Psyker. All of them, not beta grade, not shoddy kinda rogue Pyskers. They nmade the big deal out of them as they were Alpha level.
MU earth at any given time has a few hundred Alpha level or better. The Stark defensive platforlms could hurt a fleet. Mags could feel it coming out past pluto and yes he can effect things at that range. MU has Meta humans and mutants who could handle a fleet, I love me so IN , but vs Marvel, they are fethed.
Je suis2 au hazard wrote:Alpha+ accidentally destroy entire solar systems.
Dunno where you get that from. IIRC, they pause threat to planets when left unchecked (implying a certain amount of time), as they will eventually become a gateway for deamons.
No one from the avengers would be even close to an alpha+
True, but then the Hulk doesn't need being a psyker. Any team with the Hulk doesn't need psykers. But a very large number of Alpha + would remain on (Marvel's) Earth. And some which seem to go well beyond the scope of 40K psykers (again, Xavier's autistic son pretty much matched Tzeentch as far as mystical feats ; creating his own universe).
Anyways, the IoM would steamroll them. They routinely face things that would make galactus blush, like greater daemons, avatars of khaine etc.
Well there's a bunch of powerful beings in between the Beyonder and Galactus, but the only thing that could match Galactus in 40K would be the old cron's C'tan.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Eh I read the book a few weeks back. They were each and every one a Rogue Alpha level Psyker. All of them, not beta grade, not shoddy kinda rogue Pyskers. They nmade the big deal out of them as they were Alpha level.
I think we need to set the definition of what an Alpha Plus psyker is. Because none of them in the Eisenhorn book (Ordo Malleus) demonstrated that kind of capability.
MU earth at any given time has a few hundred Alpha level or better. The Stark defensive platforlms could hurt a fleet.
I think you are seriously underestimating the Imperial Navy here. Would Stark's weapons even damage the shields?
Mags could feel it coming out past pluto and yes he can effect things at that range.
Okay, give an example. But even so, it would only take a single lance battery to obliterate him and the surrounding area.
MU has Meta humans and mutants who could handle a fleet, I love me so IN , but vs Marvel, they are fethed.
We need examples if we're going to have a discussion here.
Kovnik Obama wrote:
Dunno where you get that from. IIRC, they pause threat to planets when left unchecked (implying a certain amount of time), as they will eventually become a gateway for deamons.
Yep, though Alpha level psykers aren't deployed in that manner (if they are at all) and it's already been established that the Earth has to taken relatively intact.
Well there's a bunch of powerful beings in between the Beyonder and Galactus, but the only thing that could match Galactus in 40K would be the old cron's C'tan.
I'm sure you're not taking in the Emperor or the Chaos Gods into account, but since this is Imperium vs Marvel Earth we shouldn't even be discussing Galactus or Alpha level psykers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Personally, I can only see two possible real and actual threats to the forces of the Imperium.
Magneto: Depending on exactly how strong he is and at what range his powers are effective, he could actually threaten the Imperial Navy. It has to be kept in mind that Imperial Cruisers are essentially gigantic cities floating in space. For Magneto to threaten one he would have to be capable of destroying a city that was relatively the size of New York, while he was on the moon (and probably further as IN ships prefer to stay out of a planet's orbital well). It is safe to say that until Magneto is neautralized by either obliterating his current location or assasination there is no possibility of the Imperium effecting a successful landing.
Xavier: A little bit more straightforward. I reckon that, given proper warning, the Imperium to put together a Kabal of psykers strong enough to threaten him, or at least prevent him from targetting other Imperial forces. The preffered method would still be assasination.
Other than these two figures, I can't think of any inhabitants of Marvel Earth that would seriously impede the Imperium's invasion. Especially since they would have total Naval superiority.
That Naval superiority would mean gak-all against Cable. And considering how much that dude hates authoritarian regimes, the IoM is much better off not drawing his attention. He is about Xavier's level in many respects, and he outclasses him in several others. If he feels the threat justifies it's release, his Techno-Virus alone assures him victory against any biological or technological being, army, or fleet. It has already done that multiple amounts of times.
Well considering that Franklin Richards can bend reality to his will, I think that the fight would be over rather quickly.
Also, while yes, examples help, this discussion can only be perpetuated if you actually have knowledge of what each character is capable of.
Several people here simply do not understand the power of the Marvel universe, what the heroes and villains are capable of, or even that certain characters exist, and so they overestimate what the IoM could do to the planet.
In the Marvel universe, heroes and villains alike have defeated fleets and species larger and more powerful than the IoM.
Would it be a wash? Excluding the several characters who can simply bend reality to their will? No, there would be a fight. Would it be a long fight? No. There are simply too many heroes and villains for the IoM to be able to take earth without a prolonged engagement that eventually turns into a version of the Third War for Armageddon. It would cause massive devastation across the planet, and eventually the IoM would be forced to either give up the planet or bring down Exterminatus on the planet.
Well as the book called them Alpha level psykers, then they were alpha level Psykers.
And If I am having to give you examples , you clearly are not well versed in MU. I'll use Marvels power grid here. Marvel Ranks Chars with a point system along Six attributes. Intelligence, Strength,speed,Durability,Energy projection and fighting ability.
First lets look ay Magneto His powers are
"Magneto possesses the power to control all forms of magnetism. He can shape and manipulate magnetic fields that exist naturally or artificially. It is unclear, however, whether he must draw magnetic force from outside himself (if so, then he can do so over vast distances), or whether he can also generate magnetic force from within himself. Nor is it clear whether Magneto's power is psionic or purely physiological in nature. Magneto's power is, for all practical purposes, limitless. Moreover, he can use his magnetic powers in more than one way simultaneously. He can completely assemble a complicated machine within seconds through his powers. He can erect magnetic force fields with a high degree of impenetrability around himself for protection Although Magneto’s primary power is control over magnetism, he can also project or manipulate any form of energy that is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. However, Magneto almost always uses only magnetism, since it’s more difficult for him to manipulate other forms of energy. Magneto has also exhibited powers of astral projection and telepathy, and has claimed to be able to control the minds of others, though his abilities along these lines appear to be minimal.Magneto’s ability to wield his superhuman powers effectively is dependent upon his physical condition. When severely injured, his body is unable to withstand the strain of manipulating great amounts of magnetic forces
Magneto has mastered many technological fields, and is an expert on genetic manipulation and engineering, with knowledge far beyond that of contemporary science. He is considered to be a genius in these fields. He can mutate humans in order to give them superhuman powers, or create adult clones of human beings and then manipulate the genetic structures of these clones during their development. He has also learned how to create artificial living beings. Magneto is also an excellent strategist, both in actual battles and games of chess.
His ratings are as Fallows
Intelligence: 6 (Super-Genius)
Strength: 2 (Normal: able to lift over own body weight, up to twice own body weight.)
Speed: 4(Speed of sound: peak velocity between Mach-1 to Mach-2)
Durability:6 (superhuman(which is above regeneration and bulletproof)
Energy projection: 6 (Able to discharge multiple forms of energy)
Fighting ability. 3 (some training)
All that is from marvel. He would waste a fleet, they could do nothing to him, Las rounds can do nothing to him.
Now for that list
Iron man(match mags in firepower, durability and is not only faster but can lift 75 to 100 tons) The movie iron man is but a shadow, a weak shadow at that
Havok( normal human in most ways, matchs the same firepower)
Hellion( same fire power)
Apocalypse ( You do not want none...Just go look...shuddder)
Banshee( unlimited energy output)
Darkstar( single type of firepower, but long range)
Firestare( unlisted energy many types)
I can go on and one and those are just a few mutants. Go take a gander at marvel.com and then ask yourself what the IoM could possibly do in an invasion.
Completely forgot about Apocalypse. Hell. Well if he wanted, he could semi-simultaneously teleport inside every ship in the fleet, at any range, then proceed to expand a few miles in every directions. That'll stop an invasion right there.
Also might explain why more 'conventional' space invasions aren't common in MU.
If he wanted to, yeah. His horsemen would one and all hurt anything the IoM could throw at em. The fact is MU is better then 40k at one upmen ship. They always have to make new threats for guys who can shatter worlds.
And all xavier would have to do is block the Astronomicon and....space...the final frontier.....these are the voyages of Imperial ships lost in the warp forever...
Kovnik Obama wrote:That Naval superiority would mean gak-all against Cable. And considering how much that dude hates authoritarian regimes, the IoM is much better off not drawing his attention. He is about Xavier's level in many respects, and he outclasses him in several others. If he feels the threat justifies it's release, his Techno-Virus alone assures him victory against any biological or technological being, army, or fleet. It has already done that multiple amounts of times.
You'd need to somehow get him on the ships in the first place. And as the shields block any attempts at teleportation I'd assume that'd be a lot more difficult than you think.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Well as the book called them Alpha level psykers, then they were alpha level Psykers.
Actually, that means the book was incorrect. GW cannon's definition of an Alpha Psyker is very clearly not the equivalent of Eisenhorn's Alpha Psyker. If there's any inconsitency between the two we have to go with the official GW cannon, not a BL interpretation of it.
And If I am having to give you examples , you clearly are not well versed in MU. I'll use Marvels power grid here. Marvel Ranks Chars with a point system along Six attributes. Intelligence, Strength,speed,Durability,Energy projection and fighting ability.
First lets look ay Magneto His powers are
"Magneto possesses the power to control all forms of magnetism. He can shape and manipulate magnetic fields that exist naturally or artificially. It is unclear, however, whether he must draw magnetic force from outside himself (if so, then he can do so over vast distances), or whether he can also generate magnetic force from within himself. Nor is it clear whether Magneto's power is psionic or purely physiological in nature. Magneto's power is, for all practical purposes, limitless. Moreover, he can use his magnetic powers in more than one way simultaneously. He can completely assemble a complicated machine within seconds through his powers. He can erect magnetic force fields with a high degree of impenetrability around himself for protection Although Magneto’s primary power is control over magnetism, he can also project or manipulate any form of energy that is part of the electromagnetic spectrum, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. However, Magneto almost always uses only magnetism, since it’s more difficult for him to manipulate other forms of energy. Magneto has also exhibited powers of astral projection and telepathy, and has claimed to be able to control the minds of others, though his abilities along these lines appear to be minimal.Magneto’s ability to wield his superhuman powers effectively is dependent upon his physical condition. When severely injured, his body is unable to withstand the strain of manipulating great amounts of magnetic forces
Magneto has mastered many technological fields, and is an expert on genetic manipulation and engineering, with knowledge far beyond that of contemporary science. He is considered to be a genius in these fields. He can mutate humans in order to give them superhuman powers, or create adult clones of human beings and then manipulate the genetic structures of these clones during their development. He has also learned how to create artificial living beings. Magneto is also an excellent strategist, both in actual battles and games of chess.
His ratings are as Fallows
Intelligence: 6 (Super-Genius)
Strength: 2 (Normal: able to lift over own body weight, up to twice own body weight.)
Speed: 4(Speed of sound: peak velocity between Mach-1 to Mach-2)
Durability:6 (superhuman(which is above regeneration and bulletproof)
Energy projection: 6 (Able to discharge multiple forms of energy)
Fighting ability. 3 (some training)
All that is from marvel. He would waste a fleet, they could do nothing to him, Las rounds can do nothing to him.
A decent, and comprehensive, description of his powers. Of course it said nothing of his ability to affect targets over the distance of the void, or even in orbit. Furthermore, his (very) limited control over energy is unlikely to be too effective against Lasguns. Sure it might block a couple of shots, but it would be nowhere near as easy as simply blocking bullets in midair. He most definitely isn't capable of deflecting a lance strike. Of course if the Imperials are getting anywhere near Magneto then neither side is doing their job properly.
Now for that list
Iron man(match mags in firepower, durability and is not only faster but can lift 75 to 100 tons) The movie iron man is but a shadow, a weak shadow at that
Havok( normal human in most ways, matchs the same firepower)
Hellion( same fire power)
Apocalypse ( You do not want none...Just go look...shuddder)
Banshee( unlimited energy output)
Darkstar( single type of firepower, but long range)
Firestare( unlisted energy many types)
I can go on and one and those are just a few mutants. Go take a gander at marvel.com and then ask yourself what the IoM could possibly do in an invasion.
You have to look at some of the limitations imposed by the OP. And remember this has taken place just after Secret Invasion. (Which means Osborne is in charge of SHIELD and not Nick Fury, if I'm correct). I'm not disputing that these guys could wreck face against Imperial Ground forces, but they can be taken down from the IN's firepower.
Belexar wrote:
-The Imperium wants the planet relatively intact, so any form of Exterminatus is not an option.
-The Imperium can only dispose of the forces it would normally use to perform a similar opperation (meaning it can't just throw every Space Marine in the galaxy at the Earth or land a few thousand Titans on it).
-Both heroes and villians (to a certain extent) will fight together to defend their planet.
-Earth is fully aware of the incoming invasion.
-The time period in which this takes place is shortly after the Secret Invasion.
-Marvel's heavy hitters (Thor, Black Bolt, Hulk, Sentry...) would stand on a level similar to that of a Primarch. This may be open to discussion if there is too much disgression about it.
-The Imperium can ward themselves against any attempt from Doctor Strange, Doctor Doom or any spellcaster to banish them all (or any similar spell that would end the conflict abruptly).
All else is up to us to discuss.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
McNinja wrote:Well considering that Franklin Richards can bend reality to his will, I think that the fight would be over rather quickly.
So where was he when Secret Invasion was going down?
During the Marvel Secret Wars, the power of the Beyonder was used to extinguish a galaxy. Molecule Man is the guy who turned all the stars in that galaxy back on, with a single thought. Oh, he's regarded as a low threat villain because when you have absolute control of molecules you don't really have much motivation to be out there breaking and entering.
Franklin Richards, when the Avengers were lost fighting Onslaught, created a pocket dimension with a replica of Earth for those heroes to live on. That's a replica with 6 billion living human beings plus animals and everything else that makes a planet. Franklin was a preschooler at the time.
The Beyonder is the sum totality of a universe in the form of a man. There is literally nothing he cannot do. (Marvel writers have tried to retcon that, because the Chief Editor hated the idea of an omnipotent character but retcons can be ignored)
Any one of these three could reduce the entire Imperial Fleet to its constituent atoms with a thought. All three combined? Let's not go there.
Freman Bloodglaive wrote:
Any one of these three could reduce the entire Imperial Fleet to its constituent atoms with a thought. All three combined? Let's not go there.
Magneto can do that. He has control over electromagnetic forces. You know, like the ones that hold atoms together to form molecules? Sorry, as voer-the-top as the 40K universe is, it's got nothing on Marvel Universe.
It wouldn't even need to punch through the metal. One shot to the head. Everything on his skull is incinerated leaving a metal skull with a brain inside. Probably regenerated if his brain DIDN'T BOIL AWAY INSTANTLY.
Actually, that means the book was incorrect. GW cannon's definition of an Alpha Psyker is very clearly not the equivalent of Eisenhorn's Alpha Psyker. If there's any inconsitency between the two we have to go with the official GW cannon, not a BL interpretation of it.
All I know is that in Eisenhorn verse they are alpha level.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
A decent, and comprehensive, description of his powers. Of course it said nothing of his ability to affect targets over the distance of the void, or even in orbit. Furthermore, his (very) limited control over energy is unlikely to be too effective against Lasguns. Sure it might block a couple of shots, but it would be nowhere near as easy as simply blocking bullets in midair. He most definitely isn't capable of deflecting a lance strike. Of course if the Imperials are getting anywhere near Magneto then neither side is doing their job properly.
His shield is damned effective against anything. It has held off, the Us Army, sentinels, the entire X-men group, planetary y bombardment and so forth. It can handle a few thousand Las rounds. Yeah he can handle a lance strike, he has handled things of such power before. He can use all energy types, does not mean he needs to do so.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
You have to look at some of the limitations imposed by the OP. And remember this has taken place just after Secret Invasion. (Which means Osborne is in charge of SHIELD and not Nick Fury, if I'm correct). I'm not disputing that these guys could wreck face against Imperial Ground forces, but they can be taken down from the IN's firepower.
Who is in charge of shield has nothing to do with it. The OP stated Villeins and heroes would team up and the MU earth knew the fleet was coming. That doomed it from the word GO. The IG would never hit land, the Navy would never near earth. Black bolt himself could weak it, thor would total it and mags can indeed effect things anywhere within earths system if he can feel it. Look up asteroid M sometime.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So where was he when Secret Invasion was going down?
I don't know much about comic books but from what it sounds like Marvel must be the most boring universe ever. How is anything ever even a threat to the heroes? What are the stakes with the Hulk who is apparently untouchable? Why have any conflict at all when there's dozens of reality bending gods? I think at some point you get so OTT it gets boring. After reading the posts here I can't imagine feeling any sense of danger or tension in a Marvel story.
The Hulk always has threats, but he is mostly not about the physical, but the struggle between mindless rage and self control.
Marvel is a pretty fantastic setting, It has both low power noir style action as well as planet threatening action. But, yeah it out Over the tops 40k in about every way you can.
im not seeing anything a standard IOM takeover force can do against the hulk.... anything in the air or theground would just make him mad, and thats pretty much the OPPOSITE of how you wanna handle him. (hint it involves your tail, your legs, and running very fast and very hard directly away from hulk)
as for magneto.... even in his dumbed down movie roles, hes stopped a full naval salvo in midair, lifted a frigging bridge, disarmed whole squads of police by earing apart their guns, and in the comics he RIPPED wolverines adamantium right out of his body. and the IOM would not be smart enough to switch to plastic armor and weapons. they would just send in MOAR SPEZZ MEHREENS!!!
without even going into galactus or beyonder, hell spiderman alone would do some serious damage. meltaguns... meet human torch and firestar... or how about that sqaud of terminators vrs carnage?
Actually, that means the book was incorrect. GW cannon's definition of an Alpha Psyker is very clearly not the equivalent of Eisenhorn's Alpha Psyker. If there's any inconsitency between the two we have to go with the official GW cannon, not a BL interpretation of it.
All I know is that in Eisenhorn verse they are alpha level.
And know you know that Eisenhorn was incorrect.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
A decent, and comprehensive, description of his powers. Of course it said nothing of his ability to affect targets over the distance of the void, or even in orbit. Furthermore, his (very) limited control over energy is unlikely to be too effective against Lasguns. Sure it might block a couple of shots, but it would be nowhere near as easy as simply blocking bullets in midair. He most definitely isn't capable of deflecting a lance strike. Of course if the Imperials are getting anywhere near Magneto then neither side is doing their job properly.
His shield is damned effective against anything. It has held off, the Us Army, sentinels, the entire X-men group, planetary y bombardment and so forth. It can handle a few thousand Las rounds. Yeah he can handle a lance strike, he has handled things of such power before. He can use all energy types, does not mean he needs to do so.
US Army < Sentinels < X-men group < < Planetary y bombardment (I don't even know what that is).
I would guess that a Lance Strike (if we're talking a general strike and not the punitive SM chapter master equivalents) would be more destructive than a Planetary y bombardment because they generally lay waste to continents, but I'd need to know what that is first.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
You have to look at some of the limitations imposed by the OP. And remember this has taken place just after Secret Invasion. (Which means Osborne is in charge of SHIELD and not Nick Fury, if I'm correct). I'm not disputing that these guys could wreck face against Imperial Ground forces, but they can be taken down from the IN's firepower.
Who is in charge of shield has nothing to do with it.
Actually it does. If Nick Fury was in charge you can bet that means a whole lot more co-ordination, less incompetence and overall a better outlook for the Marvel Earth. Generalship matters.
The OP stated Villeins and heroes would team up...
To some extent. It's not like they'll be co-operating without reservation. Indeed, I can imagine plenty of villains possibly considering this invasion a perfect opportunity to settle grudges or even defect entirely.
...and the MU earth knew the fleet was coming. That doomed it from the word GO. The IG would never hit land, the Navy would never near earth. Black bolt himself could weak it, thor would total it and...
Thor? I think you need to revise your knowledge in BFG fluff. Thor is the least of the Imperial Navy's worrries.
mags can indeed effect things anywhere within earths system if he can feel it. Look up asteroid M sometime.
Wrong, even if Asteroid M was built in space while Magneto was still on Earth, that only gives him a max range of 250 kilometres.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So where was he when Secret Invasion was going down?
Grade school if i recall. so he was in play
So we're not really going to take him into account then, on account of the Imperium attacking during his naptime? Good.
Oh carnage..yeah that be a good one. He would love picking apart SM, they would have little change with him. He might toy with em though. People also forget how powerful spider man really is. as he is inhumanly fast, can feel the attack coming and can left about 10 or so tons.
Deadshot wrote:It wouldn't even need to punch through the metal. One shot to the head. Everything on his skull is incinerated leaving a metal skull with a brain inside. Probably regenerated if his brain DIDN'T BOIL AWAY INSTANTLY.
Wolverine has been hit by Nuclear warheads. Think about that for a moment. He has been incinerated into a charred metal skeleton by standing at ground zero of a nuclear warhead's explosion.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Oh carnage..yeah that be a good one. He would love picking apart SM, they would have little change with him. He might toy with em though. People also forget how powerful spider man really is. as he is inhumanly fast, can feel the attack coming and can left about 10 or so tons.
I can imagine symbiotes would just love flamers.
BlaxicanX wrote:
Deadshot wrote:It wouldn't even need to punch through the metal. One shot to the head. Everything on his skull is incinerated leaving a metal skull with a brain inside. Probably regenerated if his brain DIDN'T BOIL AWAY INSTANTLY.
Wolverine has been hit by Nuclear warheads. Think about that for a moment. He has been incinerated into a charred metal skeleton by standing at ground zero of a nuclear warhead's explosion.
And he's regenerated from it.
Think about that.
A C'tan phase sword could conceivably succeed where others could not.
US Army < Sentinels < X-men group < < Planetary y bombardment (I don't even know what that is).
I would guess that a Lance Strike (if we're talking a general strike and not the punitive SM chapter master equivalents) would be more destructive than a Planetary y bombardment because they generally lay waste to continents, but I'd need to know what that is first.
Sorry the Y got left in. Planetary bombardment is the strike at planetary targets from orbit. They nuked islands and it did nothing. which is a mote point anyhow as they would never reach orbit, they would be luck to make it ot mars. Good ol mages can move things from the asteroid belt while in earth orbit (see Asteroid M) Thats what you are failing to get, they would never make it.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Who is in charge of shield has nothing to do with it.
Actually it does. If Nick Fury was in charge you can bet that means a whole lot more co-ordination, less incompetence and overall a better outlook for the Marvel Earth. Generalship matters.
Not as much as you would think. It has already been said a single man could take the fleet out in route to earth as they KNOW they are coming. Mags would never allow mere humans to threaten his people or hold them in bondage. And pry you do not wake Apocalypse up and he decides to see how "fit" you are. Much less other people. A single "team" could in all likelihood stop such a thing. they do all the time.
The OP stated Villeins and heroes would team up...
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Thor? I think you need to revise your knowledge in BFG fluff. Thor is the least of the Imperial Navy's worrries.
And you need more Knowledge of thor. He could one shot a cruiser, no kidding here. He could punch though the hull, walk though as he is a god frying the thing of a distance if he so choose. Thor has unlimited power, is nigh unkillable , Lift well over a hundred tons, is a master of most fighting styles and oh yes moves at the speed of freaking light.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Wrong, even if Asteroid M was built in space while Magneto was still on Earth, that only gives him a max range of 250 kilometres.
He umm pulled it out of the asteroid belt into earth orbit. You are trying to argue something you clearly are not well read on man.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So we're not really going to take him into account then, on account of the Imperium attacking during his naptime? Good.
Again ya do not know the subject matter, sleep or awake are all the same to him.
the other thing to consider, is marvels superheros/villans all tend to have adaptability, and feature numerous skill sets across multiple powers. the IOM is generally 1 dimensional. they show up, bombard, land IG troops, and begin a meat grinder. (troops [ushing up front, tanks blasting and supporting) if things get tough, they MIGHT call in the space marines, who would invariably attempt to drop pod/ deepstrike into the middile of the heaviest fighting as a "shock move". and if faced with a foe that is immune to the used weapons or is proving too much, they just do more of the same, hoping to overwhelm it. they dont and probally couldnt change weapons and armor over to plastic to counter magneto, nor could they suddenly train troops IG or marine, to anticipate spidermans acrobatics, or withstand wolverines claws. sure, bolter fire will go like crazy, but neither of those 2 care. and in video game footage, melta weapons are long firing, long recharge, highly inacurate and generally short range. if your close enough to wolverine or spidey to fire it, your probally already down disarmed or dead.
and when a SINGLE "minor" character like spidey, cap, wolverine, etc can take down whole squads of your troops and still get more, imagine what more powerful characters like magneto, dr doom, xavier, can do.
ground infantry - well read up.
tanks - meet firestar (walking melta cannon), human torch, wolverine, venom, both goblins, iron man.... plus the obvious magneto. aircraft? again, youve got ironman, magneto, the goblins, any character that can fly (and marvel has TONS of those) with any kind of ranged firepower. = done aircraft.
heavy armor infantry - just more of the above (although spidey MIGHT have troubles pinning down space marines, as he tends to try and capture or disable instead of kill)
if we go to DC universe....superman, batman.... et all.
IOM just dosent have the hard counters, or the ABILITY to intelligently counter a world of super characters.
Those would hurt, but likely to die screaming first honestly. Then again Carnage would rather play with the IG.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
A C'tan phase sword could conceivably succeed where others could not.
Highly unlikely, ok not gonna happen really. Sorry man a sword isn't gonna do it when nukes and magic have already failed to do so.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Unrelated note on alpha level psykers. You do know that Alpha level psykers were Dan Abnett''s creation right? So saying he got something wrong he created is a bit silly.
BL setting < GW cannon. You're flat out wrong here if you're trying to claim that Eisenhorn's idea of Alpha level psykers is correct.
However, as I've said, the Imperium tends to kill Alpha's on sight before capturing them.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
US Army < Sentinels < X-men group < < Planetary y bombardment (I don't even know what that is).
I would guess that a Lance Strike (if we're talking a general strike and not the punitive SM chapter master equivalents) would be more destructive than a Planetary y bombardment because they generally lay waste to continents, but I'd need to know what that is first.
Sorry the Y got left in. Planetary bombardment is the strike at planetary targets from orbit. They nuked islands and it did nothing. which is a mote point anyhow as they would never reach orbit, they would be luck to make it ot mars. Good ol mages can move things from the asteroid belt while in earth orbit (see Asteroid M) Thats what you are failing to get, they would never make it.
So Magneto survived a direct thermonuclear blast? That is what you're telling me? He didn't even build a shield or anything around him, he just took it on the chin?
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Actually it does. If Nick Fury was in charge you can bet that means a whole lot more co-ordination, less incompetence and overall a better outlook for the Marvel Earth. Generalship matters.
Not as much as you would think. It has already been said a single man could take the fleet out in route to earth as they KNOW they are coming. Mags would never allow mere humans to threaten his people or hold them in bondage. And pry you do not wake Apocalypse up and he decides to see how "fit" you are. Much less other people. A single "team" could in all likelihood stop such a thing. they do all the time.
So the obvious answer is to assasinate him ahead of time. If the X-men can manage to defeat him I'm sure an Officio Assasinorum operative could conceivably do so. Really, Magneto is the only honest-to-goodness threat to Imperial Cruisers. Once he's dealt with the invasion of Earth is much more straightforward, namely obliterating that might threaten their ground forces.
Hell, Mystique could already be a Callidus Assassin for all we know.
The OP stated Villeins and heroes would team up...
Maybe you forgot to address my post here.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Thor? I think you need to revise your knowledge in BFG fluff. Thor is the least of the Imperial Navy's worrries.
And you need more Knowledge of thor. He could one shot a cruiser, no kidding here. He could punch though the hull, walk though as he is a god frying the thing of a distance if he so choose. Thor has unlimited power, is nigh unkillable , Lift well over a hundred tons, is a master of most fighting styles and oh yes moves at the speed of freaking light.
And how can you say with any authority that his ability to lift one hundred tons will do anything against a ship's shields? We're talking really big shields, the kind that shrugs of firepower that would level cities.
He umm pulled it out of the asteroid belt into earth orbit. You are trying to argue something you clearly are not well read on man.
Ah okay, the only number I could find when I was looking up his powers was a range of 250 kilometres.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So we're not really going to take him into account then, on account of the Imperium attacking during his naptime? Good.
Again ya do not know the subject matter, sleep or awake are all the same to him.
So why didn't he help out with that Secret Invasion thing? In fact why hasn't he just fixed everything that could ever possibly hurt anyone on Marvel Earth ever?
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Those would hurt, but likely to die screaming first honestly. Then again Carnage would rather play with the IG.
Then I imagine melta and plasma would do a whole lot better.
Highly unlikely, ok not gonna happen really. Sorry man a sword isn't gonna do it when nukes and magic have already failed to do so.
Unrelated note on alpha level psykers. You do know that Alpha level psykers were Dan Abnett''s creation right? So saying he got something wrong he created is a bit silly.
So Dan Abnett contradicted himself? You're right, that is a bit silly of him.
In fact why hasn't he just fixed everything that could ever possibly hurt anyone on Marvel Earth ever?
Marvel seems to have so many characters capable of doing this that I can't understand why anyone would care for it. I mean I liked the Spider Man cartoons but I don't remember him being so ridiculous.
In fact why hasn't he just fixed everything that could ever possibly hurt anyone on Marvel Earth ever?
Marvel seems to have so many characters capable of doing this that I can't understand why anyone would care for it. I mean I liked the Spider Man cartoons but I don't remember him being so ridiculous.
Unless they secretly revel in the constant pain and suffering, enjoying the endless conflict and only intervening when anything might break their toys...
I think this Beyonder fella is by far the worst. The writers pretty much wanted to have an excuse to do anything ever in-universe, so they just added god to their mythos. Seems kinda lazy and if he's the kind of deity who is so advanced that he doesn't care about mortals and such then he seems completely unecessary
...then again I've always thought comics were kinda dumb, no offense to its readers though.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
BL setting < GW cannon. You're flat out wrong here if you're trying to claim that Eisenhorn's idea of Alpha level psykers is correct.
However, as I've said, the Imperium tends to kill Alpha's on sight before capturing them.
You are not thinking alpha level. You are thinking Alpha Plus psyker. And man I said above the whole alpha psyker thing was made up by Abnett's for that very book. That there is the very first use of the term "Alpha level psyker" in 40k. So yes, it is the correct usage.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So Magneto survived a direct thermonuclear blast? That is what you're telling me? He didn't even build a shield or anything around him, he just took it on the chin?
Perhaps you did not notice the term impenetrable force field or the fact he an control any type of energy. He is God like in power and to be blunt nothing the IoM has is gonna do much to him.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So the obvious answer is to assasinate him ahead of time. If the X-men can manage to defeat him I'm sure an Officio Assasinorum operative could conceivably do so. Really, Magneto is the only honest-to-goodness threat to Imperial Cruisers. Once he's dealt with the invasion of Earth is much more straightforward, namely obliterating that might threaten their ground forces.
So yes, a god like team including two minds that puts the emperor to shame can defeat him. Poor assassins have no hope at all. its been tried by better and far more powerful people.
Hell, Mystique could already be a Callidus Assassin for all we know.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Maybe you forgot to address my post here.
It was not relevant. earth has a few thousand heroes and villeins. One or two alone can end the fleet before it gets past mars. If a few decide to strike while thats going one, eh its a Tuesday.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
And how can you say with any authority that his ability to lift one hundred tons will do anything against a ship's shields? We're talking really big shields, the kind that shrugs of firepower that would level cities
.
And we are talking about a being with level 7 unlimited energy. He is a lance times a thousand . Shields will will not slow him. . Thor can go toe to toe with the hulk, he can weild power that can likely burn cities if he so wishes, he can level mountains with a punch.You are really not getting comic book level of power man
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So why didn't he help out with that Secret Invasion thing? In fact why hasn't he just fixed everything that could ever possibly hurt anyone on Marvel Earth ever?
his powers are wonkey, and maybe he did. He often does things in the future that are not apparent in the past, he makes whole realities and worlds in his dreams. Who can say.
The issue is, that is the level of power you are dealing with. 40k just can't handle it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
asimo77 wrote:I think this Beyonder fella is by far the worst. The writers pretty much wanted to have an excuse to do anything ever in-universe, so they just added god to their mythos. Seems kinda lazy and if he's the kind of deity who is so advanced that he doesn't care about mortals and such then he seems completely unecessary
...then again I've always thought comics were kinda dumb, no offense to its readers though.
It was a neat story arc. after all god like heroes need things to battle.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
BL setting < GW cannon. You're flat out wrong here if you're trying to claim that Eisenhorn's idea of Alpha level psykers is correct.
However, as I've said, the Imperium tends to kill Alpha's on sight before capturing them.
You are not thinking alpha level. You are thinking Alpha Plus psyker. And man I said above the whole alpha psyker thing was made up by Abnett's for that very book. That there is the very first use of the term "Alpha level psyker" in 40k. So yes, it is the correct usage.
Except it has been contradicted by GW cannon. So no, it is not the correct usage. Alpha psykers are capable of snapping Titan's in half, or make someone explode with a glance. Alpha plus change the very surface of the planet they are on, willingly or no.
But, for the third time, this isn't relevant becuase the Imperium can't get their hands on reliable Alpha psykers.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So Magneto survived a direct thermonuclear blast? That is what you're telling me? He didn't even build a shield or anything around him, he just took it on the chin?
Perhaps you did not notice the term impenetrable force field or the fact he an control any type of energy. He is God like in power and to be blunt nothing the IoM has is gonna do much to him.
Hunterindarkness wrote:He can erect magnetic force fields with a high degree of impenetrability around himself for protection
I find it a little funny that there are degrees of impenetrability. Either it's impenetrable or it's not.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So the obvious answer is to assasinate him ahead of time. If the X-men can manage to defeat him I'm sure an Officio Assasinorum operative could conceivably do so. Really, Magneto is the only honest-to-goodness threat to Imperial Cruisers. Once he's dealt with the invasion of Earth is much more straightforward, namely obliterating that might threaten their ground forces.
So yes, a god like team including two minds that puts the emperor to shame can defeat him. Poor assassins have no hope at all. its been tried by better and far more powerful people.
Except those minds have absolutely no sway over Magneto due to his (relatively simple) helmet design. And I'm sure Magneto would be more than a little surprised to see one of his loyal minions shove a C'tan Phase Sword through his face.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Maybe you forgot to address my post here.
It was not relevant. earth has a few thousand heroes and villeins. One or two alone can end the fleet before it gets past mars. If a few decide to strike while thats going one, eh its a Tuesday.
Since we're talking about Marvel Earth as a whole, rather than just Magneto, it really is relevant.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
And how can you say with any authority that his ability to lift one hundred tons will do anything against a ship's shields? We're talking really big shields, the kind that shrugs of firepower that would level cities
.
And we are talking about a being with level 7 unlimited energy. He is a lance times a thousand .
Source? And how can there be 'levels' of unlimited energy?
Shields will will not slow him. . Thor can go toe to toe with the hulk, he can weild power that can likely burn cities if he so wishes, he can level mountains with a punch.You are really not getting comic book level of power man
If you can give me an example which would indicate that Thor would not be thrown into the Warp the moment he made contact with a Void Shield. After all, he is moving at the speed of light.
So why didn't he help out with that Secret Invasion thing? In fact why hasn't he just fixed everything that could ever possibly hurt anyone on Marvel Earth ever?
his powers are wonkey, and maybe he did. He often does things in the future that are not apparent in the past, he makes whole realities and worlds in his dreams. Who can say.
The issue is, that is the level of power you are dealing with. 40k just can't handle it.
His powers are 'wonky'? Exactly what kind of argument is that?
Hazardous Harry wrote:And know you know that Eisenhorn was incorrect.
I'm sorry, do you believe you have a better understanding of the capabilities of an Alpha level psyker than Dan Abnett?
Please, I'd love to see you back that one up.
Re: Thor.
He flies directly through each and every fusion reactor, destroying every capital ship in the fleet. Why would void shields affect him when they don't affect ordnance? Even if they reacted to his speed, he'd simply slow down enough to pass through and then speed up again.
I find it a little funny that there are degrees of impenetrability. Either it's impenetrable or it's not.
I find it funny you are still not understanding the nature of MU power. For the nature of this convo yeah he could take a hit or two before it bust and he has to re power it at will.
]
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Except those minds have absolutely no sway over Magneto due to his (relatively simple) helmet design. And I'm sure Magneto would be more than a little surprised to see one of his loyal minions shove a C'tan Phase Sword through his face.
First off it is a helm designed by Pro X to do just the very thing and is far from simple. And the C'tan sword or its minion never gets close, ever. You are trying to attack someone in ways he simply can not be harmed.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Since we're talking about Marvel Earth as a whole, rather than just Magneto, it really is relevant.
No its not. Mags or any of a hundreds others could handle the fleet. most folks would never know about it. They fact some may take advantage is irrelevant to the out come.Fleets that large have threatened before. None ever do gak man.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
And how can you say with any authority that his ability to lift one hundred tons will do anything against a ship's shields? We're talking really big shields, the kind that shrugs of firepower that would level cities
.
And we are talking about a being with level 7 unlimited energy. He is a lance times a thousand .
Source? And how can there be 'levels' of unlimited energy?
Again you are not looking up the stuff you are debating. Marvel ranks things from 1 to 7. One being nothing seven is unlimited God like power. Its on Marvel.com, yes by Marvel canon thor could most likly take the whole fleet himself, he moves at the speed of light, can rip though the hulls with zero trouble and produces more energy then a whole battle ship battery.
Hazardous Harry wrote:Shields will will not slow him. . Thor can go toe to toe with the hulk, he can weild power that can likely burn cities if he so wishes, he can level mountains with a punch.You are really not getting comic book level of power man
If you can give me an example which would indicate that Thor would not be thrown into the Warp the moment he made contact with a Void Shield. After all, he is moving at the speed of light.
Can you give me one that says he would? and if he is so what? He can come back at will man.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
His powers are 'wonky'? Exactly what kind of argument is that?
Its not. Its a fact. He is a plot device, he can do anything can change everything, but he is like 8 and his mind puts up "linits" that work when they plot calls for it and do not work when it call for it.
The point is 40k simply has nothing that can handle him. Nothing. Lets forget him how do you handle the big A? How, just how is the IoM fleet gonna even slow something like Apocalypse down?
Except those minds have absolutely no sway over Magneto due to his (relatively simple) helmet design. And I'm sure Magneto would be more than a little surprised to see one of his loyal minions shove a C'tan Phase Sword through his face.
First off it is a helm designed by Pro X to do just the very thing and is far from simple. And the C'tan sword or its minion never gets close, ever. You are trying to attack someone in ways he simply can not be harmed.
He can only defend himself from an attack that he is aware of. He will never expect the imperium to send shape shifters. You are all going about this as if the Marvel world knew exactly what the IoM are capable of. How would Thor know to decelerate before hitting a void shield? How would they know of the assasins and psykers at the IoM's disposal? There are some things that they won't be prepared for.
Likewise, the IoM would not know what the Marvel heroes and villains are capable of.
And I call BS on unlimited energy. Everything has a limit.
Hazardous Harry wrote:And know you know that Eisenhorn was incorrect.
I'm sorry, do you believe you have a better understanding of the capabilities of an Alpha level psyker than Dan Abnett?
Please, I'd love to see you back that one up.
Ohoho, not paying attention to the discussion again, Kaldor? As I've already said, Eisenhorn's definition (A BL novel) is different from that of the GW rulebook. The GW rulebook takes precedence here.
Re: Thor.
He flies directly through each and every fusion reactor, destroying every capital ship in the fleet. Why would void shields affect him when they don't affect ordnance? Even if they reacted to his speed, he'd simply slow down enough to pass through and then speed up again.
You're assuming he would know how the Void Shields worked in the first place. How would he have that knowledge?
Hunterindarkness wrote:I find it funny you are still not understanding the nature of MU power. For the nature of this convo yeah he could take a hit or two before it bust and he has to re power it at will.
Well the answer is fairly straightforward then. Instead of just making him take a hit or two, make him take three. Or four. Or a dozen. If his 'impenetrable' shield really is penetrable, then it's only a matter of when, not if, a lance barrage will finish him.
EDIT: Also, with the "I find it funny that there are levels of impenetrable" that was more a jab at the definition, not yourself.
First off it is a helm designed by Pro X to do just the very thing and is far from simple. And the C'tan sword or its minion never gets close, ever. You are trying to attack someone in ways he simply can not be harmed.
How would a C'tan phase sword not work?
How would Magneto be able to detect the Callidus Assassin?
No its not. Mags or any of a hundreds others could handle the fleet. most folks would never know about it. They fact some may take advantage is irrelevant to the out come.Fleets that large have threatened before. None ever do gak man.
So why didn't Magneto take on these fleets himself?
And we are talking about a being with level 7 unlimited energy. He is a lance times a thousand .
Source? And how can there be 'levels' of unlimited energy?
Again you are not looking up the stuff you are debating. Marvel ranks things from 1 to 7. One being nothing seven is unlimited God like power. Its on Marvel.com, yes by Marvel canon thor could most likly take the whole fleet himself, he moves at the speed of light, can rip though the hulls with zero trouble and produces more energy then a whole battle ship battery.
Thor possesses physical powers superior to those of normal Asgardian gods. He has an extended lifespan augmented (although not immortal) by the Golden Apples of Idunn, immunity to conventional diseases, enhanced endurance (Thor's Asgardian metabolism is far greater than a human), superhuman strength ([lifting 100 tons]), which increases further when he succumbs to “warrior’s madness,” a berserker rage, the mindless battle passion that increases a warriors strength tenfold. By chanting and performing an ancient ritual, Thor can also invoke the berserker rage to increase his strength. His skin and bones are several times denser than those of mortals, granting him extreme resistance to injury.
Nothing in there suggests that he would survive a direct lance hit.
Can you give me one that says he would? and if he is so what? He can come back at will man.
My source was already posted, it was the link to Lexicanum.
He can come back. At will. From the warp?
Lets forget him how do you handle the big A? How, just how is the IoM fleet gonna even slow something like Apocalypse down?
Compared to Magneto Apocalypse seems pretty tame. How exactly is he going to destroy the Imperial Navy?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
He can only defend himself from an attack that he is aware of. He will never expect the imperium to send shape shifters.
You are all going about this as if the Marvel world knew exactly what the IoM are capable of.
How would Thor know to decelerate before hitting a void shield? How would they know of the assasins and psykers at the IoM's disposal? There are some things that they won't be prepared for.
Likewise, the IoM would not know what the Marvel heroes and villains are capable of.
That's true. I imagine the Imperium would find this out the hard way after losing a ship or two to Magneto's capabilities.
No, Thor is not immortal as confirmed.in the new Avengers movie [spoiler] where he is semt plummeting to.his death by Loki in a sealed cage. If he was really immortal he wouldn't have broken out. He would have just taken it on the chin, got up and walked away.
It is called Magneto, with Ironman/Warmachine/Hulk/Wolverine cleaning up the field, while Mag stalls them. Thor would probably kill any orbital ship and Cyclops can keep his eyes open behind a wall condensed air so no sort of projectile hits him (ie Storm). GG 40k
Automatically Appended Next Post: Btw, if Thor was in The warp, pretty sure the place would get mopped, swept, dusted, and bleached. Real estate would be be booming.
Hazardous Harry wrote:And know you know that Eisenhorn was incorrect.
I'm sorry, do you believe you have a better understanding of the capabilities of an Alpha level psyker than Dan Abnett?
Please, I'd love to see you back that one up.
Ohoho, not paying attention to the discussion again, Kaldor? As I've already said, Eisenhorn's definition (A BL novel) is different from that of the GW rulebook. The GW rulebook takes precedence here.
It's really all in the name Imperium of Man. God of Thunder.
Also, the X-Men rarely actually defeat Magneto. Sometimes (not even always), they thwart his plans. That's not the same thing.
That, and plot. The comic is called "Uncanny X-Men", not "Magneto"
Deadshot wrote:No, Thor is not immortal as confirmed.in the new Avengers movie [spoiler] where he is semt plummeting to.his death by Loki in a sealed cage. If he was really immortal he wouldn't have broken out. He would have just taken it on the chin, got up and walked away.
Movie ain't comics. In the movie they made Thor a member of a technoligically advanced race. in the comics, he's a god. See the difference? Well, maybe there isn't one. Anyways, the gods can be killed, but they're not likely to die of old age. That's their 'immortality'.
For everything mentioned in the Marvel's favour in this thread, theres something worse in the 40k universe.
Magneto would die to a single shot from anything non metallic. He probably wouldnt even see it coming.
All of those OP ones somebody mentioned up there ^ like the beyonder are dwarfed by the C'tan and Chaos Gods. But can we leave ALL Omnipotent / untouchable characters out? Because if we dont, then I just say virus bomb.
Hulk is resilient but can die of old age / dies easily when not angry, and I 100% gurantee theres something in 40k that could one hit him. If not put him in one of those Tesseract Labyrinths they use to keep daemons. Yes, we saw how powerful a Tesseract is in Avengers Thor is actually quite killable, according to Avengers where a whee drop from a flying Aircraft Character almost kills him.
Arguably, Adamantium is to strong for the Hulk to even break, its the same stuff Wolverines skeleton is made out of , and terminators wear a full suit of it. The hulk might be able to throw them??? Also I refuse to believe Hulk is "invincible other than his own cancer". At best he is Impervious to small arms fire, but what about nerve gas and burning flames? What about firing him into space? If the imperium can drop a bomb that has the same affect as an asteroid hitting a planet, Im sure it can kill a hulk.
I'd love to see Iron Man try to take out 200 Hyrdra.
Sticking him in space would work. In Incredible Hulk he jumps on a F-22 IIRC and it flies up into space. As the pilot and craft float away to death, Hulk drops back down, only regaining conciousness when he hit the ground but he just walked it off.
Also I refuse to believe Hulk is "invincible other than his own cancer". At best he is Impervious to small arms fire, but what about nerve gas and burning flames? What about firing him into space? If the imperium can drop a bomb that has the same affect as an asteroid hitting a planet, Im sure it can kill a hulk.
Kind of a wilfully ignorant statement, it's pretty much established throughout the comic books that he can't die, if Marvel says he can't die, then he can't die, your refusal is irrelevant.
Also can people stop saying about Chaos gods, C'tan etc, last I checked none of them were part of the Imperium of Man. And as the C'tan were destroyed by their own slaves and the Chaos gods cannot manifest in this reality, neither would be significant in this battle anyway. If the Chaos gods could directly influence battles then they would simply have appeared and smashed the Emperor down instead of wasting years turning the Primarchs.
Deadshot wrote:Sticking him in space would work. In Incredible Hulk he jumps on a F-22 IIRC and it flies up into space. As the pilot and craft float away to death, Hulk drops back down, only regaining conciousness when he hit the ground but he just walked it off.
Not into space, just up to the Raptors maximum altitude. The Hulk can't stand the cold or severe lack of oxygen for more than a few seconds, while the pilot can. The Hulk slipped into unconsciousness while the pilot was fine.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KorPhaeron77 wrote:
Jaon wrote:
Also I refuse to believe Hulk is "invincible other than his own cancer". At best he is Impervious to small arms fire, but what about nerve gas and burning flames? What about firing him into space? If the imperium can drop a bomb that has the same affect as an asteroid hitting a planet, Im sure it can kill a hulk.
Kind of a wilfully ignorant statement, it's pretty much established throughout the comic books that he can't die, if Marvel says he can't die, then he can't die, your refusal is irrelevant.
Also can people stop saying about Chaos gods, C'tan etc, last I checked none of them were part of the Imperium of Man. And as the C'tan were destroyed by their own slaves and the Chaos gods cannot manifest in this reality, neither would be significant in this battle anyway. If the Chaos gods could directly influence battles then they would simply have appeared and smashed the Emperor down instead of wasting years turning the Primarchs.
The funny thing is, there are dozens of legitimate god-esque being in the Marvel universe that both appear and directly influence certain events. Also, if there was to be a battle in the heavens, the One-Above-All would simply end that reality and create a new one where everyone isn't a moron.
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asimo77 wrote:I don't know much about comic books but from what it sounds like Marvel must be the most boring universe ever. How is anything ever even a threat to the heroes? What are the stakes with the Hulk who is apparently untouchable? Why have any conflict at all when there's dozens of reality bending gods? I think at some point you get so OTT it gets boring. After reading the posts here I can't imagine feeling any sense of danger or tension in a Marvel story.
This is pretty high-end stuff. There are dozens, if not hundreds, of superheroes, some of them far more powerful than others. Keep in mind that the caliber of villain is generally equal or greater than the hero.
Thor has Loki
Spider-man has venom and Carnage (carnage is actually far more powerful than Spider-man due to his psychotic insanity). In fact, spider-man got roflstomped by the Scorpion in their first fight.
The X-Men have the likes of Magneto, Sentinels, the US government, etc to deal with, hence why they are a team, though the leaders of both the Brotherhood and the X-Men are about equal in terms of power.
And so on.
It's not just the heroes who are OP. The villains are OP as well.
Deadshot wrote:Sticking him in space would work. In Incredible Hulk he jumps on a F-22 IIRC and it flies up into space. As the pilot and craft float away to death, Hulk drops back down, only regaining conciousness when he hit the ground but he just walked it off.
Not into space, just up to the Raptors maximum altitude. The Hulk can't stand the cold or severe lack of oxygen for more than a few seconds, while the pilot can. The Hulk slipped into unconsciousness while the pilot was fine.
No, it was definately into space. The pilot kept trying to go down, but the general (the dad of the women in Hulk that doesn't like Banner) keeps order him up, and they reach the edge of the atmosphere and the plane floats away with the pilots screams.
Chaos gods and Ctan more powerful than the beyonder? not even close..
The beyonder could simply wish the Emperor and the entire imperium out of existence and they're done...he literally can do anything and you can't counter it if he really doesn't want you to.
Chaos gods cannot do that and neither can the Ctan. Ctan can't even keep from becoming the slaves of the Necrons and Chaos gods can't even manifest in reality. Nor can Gork and Mork or any of the other chaos beings except daemons. And daemons have nothing on the beyonder.
The truth of it is Comic books out do 40k cheese by about a billion to one.
You're assuming he would know how the Void Shields worked in the first place. How would he have that knowledge?
The OP said earth knew the IoM was on its way. Someone like the Prof, Mags, Forge, cable or any number of other people could see how they work with a glance or a simple fleet wide mind read. There are a gakload of people In MU that could understand how they work in a dozen or so way at but a glance. And even if they did not a single blast or so would pop them anyhow.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Well the answer is fairly straightforward then. Instead of just making him take a hit or two, make him take three. Or four. Or a dozen. If his 'impenetrable' shield really is penetrable, then it's only a matter of when, not if, a lance barrage will finish him.
EDIT: Also, with the "I find it funny that there are levels of impenetrable" that was more a jab at the definition, not yourself.
Knowing what I do of lances, I would say that is not gonna happen. He has been hit with harder and more powerful stuff. Besides you would get 1 shot and would not make it to orbit anyhow.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
First off it is a helm designed by Pro X to do just the very thing and is far from simple. And the C'tan sword or its minion never gets close, ever. You are trying to attack someone in ways he simply can not be harmed.
How would a C'tan phase sword not work?
How would Magneto be able to detect the Callidus Assassin?
One> How does the IoM have a C'tan sword? But then its a metal blade, does not matter if it is magical or what have you. You will never get it though a shield made of magnetism. You can't slice what you can't get near or when he rips it apart or out of your hands.
Two. They are human and dealing with a creature that can feel metal and has limited mental/mind control power. Why do you think assassin's have not worked before?
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So why didn't Magneto take on these fleets himself?
He was not the star of the comic.Realistically he could have, but then it was not his book or his story arc. I mean why do not Sm take on every plot of every BL book ever? That is a pretty silly question man, I mean damned silly.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Nothing in there suggests that he would survive a direct lance hit.
I never said thor, I said mags could take the hit. Thor would not be hit, but if he was..eh the Hulk has punched him with enough power to put him though a city block and across state lines. He has been hit by gods and being that can level cities with a glance. Pretty sure a lace would not be an issue.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
My source was already posted, it was the link to Lexicanum.
He can come back. At will. From the warp?
Yes, what part of that did you not understand? The warp is simply another reality , nothing more. How do you think he hops from home to earth to Gods alone knows what other place. Thor is a GOD, not a Aline but a living breathing God. He has came back from worse places in the comic.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Compared to Magneto Apocalypse seems pretty tame. How exactly is he going to destroy the Imperial Navy?
The fact you made that statement shows a massive lack of knowledge about the Big A. He could if he so chose to do so not only teleport though the shields ( he has done so before) but be at six, or twelve places at once and then expand to the size of a ship while inside one. He has not only total control over his molecules,but is so tech savvy it makes the DA humans of 40k look like primitives . Go look him up...you want none.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
He can only defend himself from an attack that he is aware of. He will never expect the imperium to send shape shifters.
You are all going about this as if the Marvel world knew exactly what the IoM are capable of.
How would Thor know to decelerate before hitting a void shield? How would they know of the assasins and psykers at the IoM's disposal? There are some things that they won't be prepared for.
Likewise, the IoM would not know what the Marvel heroes and villains are capable of.
1: they will never get close enough if they do not show mutant powers and even then it would take years to become "trusted" enough for him to let his guard down.
2: I covered this up thread. by the comics marvel has about 5'00 ways to find out what the IoM can do before they ever hit the system.
Jaon wrote:
Hulk is resilient but can die of old age / dies easily when not angry, and I 100% gurantee theres something in 40k that could one hit him. If not put him in one of those Tesseract Labyrinths they use to keep daemons. Yes, we saw how powerful a Tesseract is in Avengers Thor is actually quite killable, according to Avengers where a whee drop from a flying Aircraft Character almost kills him.
Comics and movie are not the same thing and No, Nothing I know of in 40k has a chance in hell at the hulk. Hell the virse bombs from the HH books would not take the beast down, he has had worse. He heals to fast and thing that hits or harms Banner brings out the Hulk, people have tried that. Banner is as immune to death as the haulk is. And as far as anyone can tell in the comics he does not age.
Jaon wrote:
Arguably, Adamantium is to strong for the Hulk to even break, its the same stuff Wolverines skeleton is made out of , and terminators wear a full suit of it.
While they use the same name, the actually proprieties of the two substances are vastly different. I know both 40k and MU, they are not the same thing in any way, shape or form.
Jaon wrote:Also I refuse to believe Hulk is "invincible other than his own cancer".
You belief is fact is irrelevant. He is in fact immune and totally invincible. That is a fact of the MU.
You belief is fact is irrelevant. He is in fact immune and totally invincible. That is a fact of the MU.
He is not. Hulk goes down to simple tear-gas and a (reasonably-well-trained, not Space Marine level mind you) mortal's kick to the solar plexus. Nothing fancy needed to take him out.
Deadshot wrote:That is unfair. Batman was the good guy. He has to win in the.comics.
I also can't remember if Ghost rider is Marvel or DC.
Unfair or not unfair doesn't matter. Fact is, Hulk is NOT invincible. Infact, he's hardly a major threat at all to the kind of stuff the IoM would take out (I doubt they even bother with fancy, non-lethal Batman-good-guy gas and would rather go straight to the mean stuff). Seriously, when did the IoM ever play it fair?
Marvel vs Dc cross overs are outside out the MU.The winner is always the Star of the comic and the guy who belongs to the company who released that issue.
Go luck him up on Marvel.com. Batman just broke his leg.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Marvel vs Dc cross overs are outside out the MU.The winner is always the Star of the comic and the guy who belongs to the company who released that issue.
Go luck him up on Marvel.com. Batman just broke his leg.
Ghost rider is Marvel.
Well, what would go for a Marvel vs. DC cross-over would go for a 40K vs. Marvel crossover too I guess. So Hulk would still get bitch-slapped 50% of the time. Hawkeye also pulled the gas-trick on She-Hulk, so it's fair to assume gas works on the Hulk no matter what.
Anyhow, Hulk's not invincible Marvel-only either. Just replace Wolverine with a Lightningclaw Termy or Shrike perhaps.
Point is. He is not invincible. Far from it. Never was. In no version that has ever been written.
"The Hulk possesses an incredible level of superhuman physical ability. His capacity for physical strength is potentially limitless due to the fact that the Hulk's strength increases proportionally with his level of great emotional stress, anger in particular.
The Hulk uses his superhumanly strong leg muscles to leap great distances. The Hulk has been known to cover hundreds of miles in a single bound and once leaped almost into orbit around the Earth. The Hulk can also use his superhumanly leg muscles to run at super speeds, although his legs have limitless strength he does not have limitless speed and once he reaches a certain speed his legs become too strong and destroy the ground giving him no friction to run on, therefore he jumps to travel.
The Hulk can slam his hands together creating a shock wave, this shock wave can deafen people, send objects flying and extinguish fires. His thunderclap has been compared to hurricanes and sonic booms.
The Hulk has shown a high resistance to physical damage nearly regardless of the cause, and has also shown resistance to extreme temperatures, mind control, nuclear explosions, poisons, and all diseases. In addition to the regeneration of limbs, vital organs, and damaged or destroyed areas of tissue at an amazing rate. The Hulk also has superhuman endurance.
The Hulk's body also has a gland that makes an "oxygenated per fluorocarbon emulsion", which creates pressure in the Hulk's lungs and effectively lets him breathe underwater and move quickly between varying depths without concerns about decompression or nitrogen narcosis."
Nothing a Sm can do will phase him
And to be fair..it was Batman.
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Zweischneid wrote:
Point is. He is not invincible. Far from it. Never was. In no version that has ever been written.
where the next page? Ya know the one he gets up? Also that was not S.I era hulk. which is war hulk if I recall.
Then Ghost rider pops on board Cruiser. Looks into everyones souls.Sees corruption and violence. Sees them.destroying Xenos and civilisations and families simply because they are not.humman. Everyone goes to hell.
Deadshot wrote:Then Ghost rider pops on board Cruiser. Looks into everyones souls.Sees corruption and violence. Sees them.destroying Xenos and civilisations and families simply because they are not.humman. Everyone goes to hell.
heh I should have recalled him, oh yes they want none of ghosty, that and seeing him run wild on a cruiser would be simply epic.
Which is the point I guess. Plot armour wins. But the Hulk has enough vulnerabilities to lose any given fight in 40K IF you want the plot to have it that way. Of course, if you absoluely WANT Hulk to win, his plot armour will make it so. But that is not a feature of Hulk's strength or resiliance or whatever, but, like Batman, a feature of his plot-armour which has thickened considerably ever since Hulk become more and more popular again in his own comic line.
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Deadshot wrote:Then Ghost rider pops on board Cruiser. Looks into everyones souls.Sees corruption and violence. Sees them.destroying Xenos and civilisations and families simply because they are not.humman. Everyone goes to hell.
40K people go to hell all the time just to travel. Most consider it the "quiet time" before the fighting starts.
This is the dumbest conceivable thing. Comic book logic generally boils down to 'because it can', so basically magic. Wolverine regenerates despite the fact that if his marrow is really wholly encased in metal there's no way for the blood to get out to start regenerating and if it is porous enough then it can let heat in and that means you can destroy the marrow, nor can marrow just make blood out of thin air like if you put a femur by itself in a bath tub it just starts filling up with blood. It happens because of magic.
Batman beat the hulk because the hulk wasn't mad enough or something, i guess? The hulk routinely takes cars and mountain smashing blows to the face and can survive in the vacuum of space, because of magic, but batman obviously counter magiced him by being magicier with his judo kick and tear gas. It doesn't matter, none of this matters, there is no reliable sense of scale or reason to base arguments on. Reed Richards beat Magneto with a wooden gun, it's an internet meme. There is no gif to adequately communicate my disappoint.
From the look of the kick I would say it's Hung Gar kung fu.
Either way, if he can do that to the hulk, how do you expect a Space Marine to handle it? Space Marines die pretty regularly to an Ork with a Choppa. Batman wouldn't have a problem with them, neither would the Hulk or Wolverine.
I recently read a comic where the Incredible Hulk got his neck broken by another, older version of himself and took a fair time to heal. He was then raped. Point is, he can be incapacitated, and if he can be incapacitated, he can be permanently stopped. Vortex grenades, as suggested, would remove him from the picture entirely. As an aside, whether or not he can pick up Thors hammer depends on the comic. In some he can't. Basically, Marvel is hugely contradictory in the power levels of different beings. Despite what people were saying about various beings simply destroying the Imperial forces instantaneously, the original poster ruled stuff like that out. I'm also unsure if Thor would be on the same power level as the 'gods' of 40K.
m not seeing anything a standard IOM takeover force can do against the hulk.... anything in the air or theground would just make him mad, and thats pretty much the OPPOSITE of how you wanna handle him. (hint it involves your tail, your legs, and running very fast and very hard directly away from hulk)
Couldn't the IOM just teleport his ass into space and let him float there for ever, same with lots of the regular tough guys?
No, because if they could do that sort of thing, why didn't they do it to Ghazkull Thraka when he invaded Armageddon, or the Tyrant of Badab, or Angron during the first War for Armageddon? Or any of the other baddies they constantly have to fight?
The 40k side keeps coming up with stuff that's so far out there in terms of power just to keep up with the Marvel side. From Alpha+, chaos gods, to C'tan, to Mork and Gork. Really? Since when do the Orks participate in IoM invasions?
The stuff the Marvel side is talking about? Magneto, Prof. X, Hulk, Thor? That's daily basis, around all the time.
Come up with something from the IoM, not the 40k universe as a whole, that can handle any of the Marvel heavy hitters.
Magneto can pull your fleet into Jupiter before you even make it to orbit. Xavier can make your entire fleet fire upon itself with but a blink of the eye.
Ground stuff like Hulk, Wolverine, the X-Men. It isn't needed. They won't make planetfall.
And to be fair, that comic of Batman and Hulk is from September of '81. Long before Marvel expanded on Hulk's abilities. If you want to bring that up, let's compare him to the IoM from '81. What's a C'tan? A Lance what?
DarthSpader wrote:well batman just beats everything. because hes batman.
and banner cant be killed.... "put a gun in my mouth, and the other just spat the bullet back out" - from avengers.
and movie characters are generally alot more simple and less powerful then they are intended and shown in the comics.
Never.mind bullets. He jumped out of a helicopter several thousand feet off the ground. Hit the ground, continues through into his.homemade hole. Hulk gets out and shakes his head.
The main reason that Hulk gets beat by so many people is because he is subject to the most severe amounts of Warf Effect I have ever seen. Everytime marvel wants to up someone's power level, or show of the strength of some character, they send it up against The Hulk and make them win, just to make the readers go "Oh sh*t! They beat The Hulk!" So, if this actually all happened, then Hulk would find himself in conflict with some team of deathwing termies or paladins, or a titan of some type, and would be smashed. He would then be found as Bruce Banner, sans clothes, by some other heros. Then him and Reed Richards would develop some duex ex machina syrum to enhance his rage, and he would go in and proceed to wreck unparalled amounts of face. So yeah.
And for all the people that are saying marvel sounds boring with so many gods running about, well, yeah, i agree. That's why i mostly stick to Marvel Ultimate Universe, and the less super-charged marvel characters, like Dare Devil, Luke Cage, Iron Fist, Black Panther, and other minor heros.
Deadshot wrote:Magneto crushes all armies bar Nids. Hulk kills nids. Thor electricutes Necrons. Iron Man, meh.
If superman was about, game over.
Wow, this thread grew a lot since I started it. Can't read it all now, but let me say something about this one. Sentry. Sentry can do everything Superman can do, plus he has the power of a thousand exploding suns and can manipulate molecules at will. He even disintegrated freaking Molecule Man. Before Planet Hulk, he ACCIDENTALLY broke all of Hulk's bones. Now that he has a lot more control over his powers, he's even more dangerous. And of course, we have POST-Planet Hulk Hulk. The guy who almost destroys the Earth by stomping too hard. And now he is smart. And uses english grammar properly.
Deadshot wrote:There you go then. Sentry wakes up. Sneezes and goes back to sleep. Invasion averted.
At the beginning of the thread I stated that all heavy-hitters would have the same power level as a primarch. Also, as powerful as the guy can be, he's still flying rodent gak crazy and afraid of his own power. Go read World War Hulk.
At the beginning of the thread I stated that all heavy-hitters would have the same power level as a primarch. .
At that point you are not using Vanilla MU at all. The primarchs are mid power rang at very , very best( and no all of em at that). They have zero hope of standing toe to toe with the weakest of MU's Heavies.
The problem with eliminating Marvel's heavy-hitters, is who's left? The Fantastic Four and Jubilee?
I mean, you're talking about a universe that has multiple people who are nigh invincible. Multiple characters that are an army in of themselves. Characters that can kill people with a thought, project energy beams greater than the sum of all of the IoM's naval ships, regenerate faster than you can hurt them, or completely restructure reality as they see fit.
Shrike325 wrote:The problem with eliminating Marvel's heavy-hitters, is who's left? The Fantastic Four and Jubilee?
I mean, you're talking about a universe that has multiple people who are nigh invincible. Multiple characters that are an army in of themselves. Characters that can kill people with a thought, project energy beams greater than the sum of all of the IoM's naval ships, regenerate faster than you can hurt them, or completely restructure reality as they see fit.
Are you implying Mr. Fantastic isn't a heavy hitter? Dude's got more tech than Mars! He even designed a giant robot meant to EAT GALACTUS. Let's see a Titan do that!
Also, for the sake of practicality, let's say adamantium is the same metal in both universes.
Also, guys, I'm seeing a lot of people trying to pull Galactus and the Beyonder into this. They don't count. Only earthlings or beings that would normally ally themselves with earthlings (asgardians, Silver Surfer, etc).
Squirrel Girl, however, does count.
Oh, and as Stephen Strange can tell you, Hulk is still vulnerable to mind-probing when distracted. It's still dangerous stuff, though.
And Tony has succesfully used his orbital weapons to neutralize Hulk in World War Hulk.
aside from the hitting power of both sides, i think tatics and strategy comes in as the deciding x factor. MU characters are constantly scheming and counter scheming, and have to adapt to situations on the fly. they also have a ton of exp fighting armies and police forces.
IOM... not so much. they generally just engage wars, and rely on numbers of bodies and firepower to see the day won. against other armies they tend to do ok, but aginst a highly adaptable foe, they tend to get their butts kicked. its why eldar, dark eldar, tau, all who feature great stratigists and the ability to adapt to situational changes, if not new weapons etc, the IOM tends to loose. only when they can bait the other guys (or catch them) in the meat grinder do they tend to win. (wich they usally do by a ton at that point)
so not even factoring in all those uber powerful super characters, MU heros and villians all use and employ various tactics and constantly adapt and learn. IOM not so much. - edge MU.
Belexar wrote:Also, for the sake of practicality, let's say adamantium is the same metal in both universes.
It can't be.
In 40k, adamantium covered terminators die to vindicators. A Demolisher Cannon designed to level buildings. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say it has the same destructive power as a GBU-24.
In the Marvel universe, adamantium eats thermonuclear weaponry.
I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.
How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.
If it all comes down to plot armour and the like, well that seems pretty lazy and boring.
asimo77 wrote:I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.
How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.
Same reason the Chaos gods didn't intervene and just lolsmite the Emperor, or Gork and Mork don't unite all the tribes and wipe out the galaxy. It's called plot. Thor doesn't show up in the X-men comics to save them all from an alien invasion because the comic is called X-men, not Thor and Those Other Guys.
I mean, if you're gonna ask about stupid-out-of-whack stories, do I need to mention Calgar vs. Avatar?
Hunterindarkness wrote:The Marvel universe is one of the few that could not only hold its own vs 40k, but completely decimate it. professor x alone could mindwrip the whole planet, at will. The Hulk has been brought but..You. Can. Not.Stop.The.Hulk. If you are really lucky you can slow him, Good Ol Magneto can pull the earth off its axis at will, good luck bringing a fleet. Franklin Richards..just, Game over man, game over.And as for the Nids? Well already been there, done that. The brood did not do so hot, nor did any other Nid like beastly the MU has introduced over the years.
One other note. I would pay good money, No joke to see Deadpool run though a space Marine Chapter, wise creaking all the way.
His swords and pistols would not even come close to hurting them. Then their librarians would inhibit his teleportation and saw him apart with bolters.
Belexar wrote:Also, for the sake of practicality, let's say adamantium is the same metal in both universes.
It can't be.
In 40k, adamantium covered terminators die to vindicators. A Demolisher Cannon designed to level buildings. Let's give it the benefit of the doubt and say it has the same destructive power as a GBU-24.
In the Marvel universe, adamantium eats thermonuclear weaponry.
Agreed. It now seems the Op[ is changing his parameters to the IoM vs a much, much weaker non- vanilla MU.
Hazardous Harry wrote:And know you know that Eisenhorn was incorrect.
I'm sorry, do you believe you have a better understanding of the capabilities of an Alpha level psyker than Dan Abnett?
Please, I'd love to see you back that one up.
Ohoho, not paying attention to the discussion again, Kaldor? As I've already said, Eisenhorn's definition (A BL novel) is different from that of the GW rulebook. The GW rulebook takes precedence here.
Ohoho, citation still needed.
Ohoho, page 125. Last edition rulebook.
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:
You're assuming he would know how the Void Shields worked in the first place. How would he have that knowledge?
The OP said earth knew the IoM was on its way. Someone like the Prof, Mags, Forge, cable or any number of other people could see how they work with a glance or a simple fleet wide mind read. There are a gakload of people In MU that could understand how they work in a dozen or so way at but a glance. And even if they did not a single blast or so would pop them anyhow.
I don't know how you think Cable is going to get his hands on Imperial Tech when it's flying around in orbit. And even if Proffessor Xavier could mind sweep the shielded fleet (and not go crazy upon viewing the horrors of the warp) how is he going to get the information to Magneto?
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Well the answer is fairly straightforward then. Instead of just making him take a hit or two, make him take three. Or four. Or a dozen. If his 'impenetrable' shield really is penetrable, then it's only a matter of when, not if, a lance barrage will finish him.
EDIT: Also, with the "I find it funny that there are levels of impenetrable" that was more a jab at the definition, not yourself.
Knowing what I do of lances, I would say that is not gonna happen. He has been hit with harder and more powerful stuff. Besides you would get 1 shot and would not make it to orbit anyhow.
I think you're misunderstanding. You said he survived his entire island being nuked. Lance batteries generally level continents. And why would the ship get only 1 shot? It's a whole battery of lances, not a single lance.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
How would a C'tan phase sword not work?
How would Magneto be able to detect the Callidus Assassin?
One> How does the IoM have a C'tan sword? But then its a metal blade, does not matter if it is magical or what have you. You will never get it though a shield made of magnetism. You can't slice what you can't get near or when he rips it apart or out of your hands.
Two. They are human and dealing with a creature that can feel metal and has limited mental/mind control power. Why do you think assassin's have not worked before?
1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.
2) There are a assassins and then there Officio Assasinorum operatives. We're talking a whole different level of competence here. Unless Magneto had some means of detecting the polymorphine drug, which he clearly doesn't.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
So why didn't Magneto take on these fleets himself?
He was not the star of the comic.Realistically he could have, but then it was not his book or his story arc. I mean why do not Sm take on every plot of every BL book ever? That is a pretty silly question man, I mean damned silly.
Space Marines do not save the day in every BL novel because they are stretched to the limit as they are. Magneto doesn't take on fleets because he doesn't want to steal the show?
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Nothing in there suggests that he would survive a direct lance hit.
I never said thor, I said mags could take the hit. Thor would not be hit, but if he was..eh the Hulk has punched him with enough power to put him though a city block and across state lines. He has been hit by gods and being that can level cities with a glance. Pretty sure a lace would not be an issue.
What gods are these? How badly hurt was Thor was an entire city was levelled around him?
Hazardous Harry wrote:
My source was already posted, it was the link to Lexicanum.
He can come back. At will. From the warp?
Yes, what part of that did you not understand? The warp is simply another reality , nothing more. How do you think he hops from home to earth to Gods alone knows what other place. Thor is a GOD, not a Aline but a living breathing God. He has came back from worse places in the comic.
I sincerely doubt that he has come back from worse places. Unshielded, he would literally go insane. Normal humans, even those hardy and trained individuals, go crazy from looking into the warp. Thor being in the actual warp itself would destroy him. And we're assuming that the daemons don't even take notice of him (which they inevitably will).
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Compared to Magneto Apocalypse seems pretty tame. How exactly is he going to destroy the Imperial Navy?
The fact you made that statement shows a massive lack of knowledge about the Big A. He could if he so chose to do so not only teleport though the shields ( he has done so before) but be at six, or twelve places at once and then expand to the size of a ship while inside one. He has not only total control over his molecules,but is so tech savvy it makes the DA humans of 40k look like primitives . Go look him up...you want none.
Again, how is he going to teleport through the shields?
asimo77 wrote:I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.
How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.
Mostly because of power inflation on errybody. And because they won't all work with each other normally. The OP states that they all work together, so we end up with crazy combinations. Prof. X doesn't mindwipe people because he has some stupid thing called "Morals." . But mostly because of power inflation. Marvel wants to make this guy more awesome, so he makes them do something redonklyous, like 'ole Magneto and astroid X. And, of course, if you want people to look cool, they just make them beat the Hulk. New villians show up and do awesome stuff in order to look impressive, but heros have to win, so they do, and their power is increased due to the now-cannon cool stuff they pulled off. Like, if some comic shows some villian whose skin is entirely invunerable, and then spidy gets around that by filling his insides with web-shooters until he sustains internal injuries, then it becomes cannon that he can do that when ever, even though it only happened once, leading to people saying things like "Yeah, well, spidey can beat the Thing, because the second the Thing yells "It's clobberin' time!" Spidey would shoot his webs down his throat and rip him up from the inside."
And that's why i stick to Ultimate MU and the lower levels of regular Marvel. Punisher and Dare Devil FTW!
1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.
Not all metal is magnetic.
Also, to settle the matter of alpha+ psykers:
Alpha-Plus
In the rarest of all cases, the twenty-four point scale of the Assignment does not adequately characterize a being of indescribable ability. Such individuals, for all intents and purposes, pass beyond the scale entirely. These subjects are known as Alpha-Plus psykers.
Uncontained, Alpha-Plus psykers represent an immediate and catastrophic threat to the Imperium. In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured.
loota boy wrote:
Mostly because of power inflation on errybody. And because they won't all work with each other normally. The OP states that they all work together, so we end up with crazy combinations.
They will work together to a certain extent. So we can't really expect Thor to be carrying Apocalypse from ship to ship. At best we can expect that they won't be actively killing each other.
Prof. X doesn't mindwipe people because he has some stupid thing called "Morals." .
So he wouldn't be able to bring himself to end/otherwise-alter the millions of human lives in the Imperial Fleet?
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Je suis2 au hazard wrote:
1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.
Not all metal is magnetic.
Good point, I'd hardly expect that the C'tan are magnetic.
Also, to settle the matter of alpha+ psykers:
Alpha-Plus
In the rarest of all cases, the twenty-four point scale of the Assignment does not adequately characterize a being of indescribable ability. Such individuals, for all intents and purposes, pass beyond the scale entirely. These subjects are known as Alpha-Plus psykers.
Uncontained, Alpha-Plus psykers represent an immediate and catastrophic threat to the Imperium. In theory, there is nothing that a trained Alpha-Plus psyker cannot accomplish through force of will; from snapping a Titan in half to summoning a legion of Greater Daemons. Representing such a great danger, the Inquisition usually executes Alpha-Plus psykers on sight unless the possibility for capture is nearly assured.
I have one that suggests Alpha psykers are only slightly less powerful.
Alpha-Level Psykers
...Those cursed with an incredible level of psychic talent are codified by the Black Ships of the Inquisition as Alpha-level - the highest category a human psyker can reach. Alpha-level psykers can turn a man inside out with a glance. A mere flick of a wrist can snap a Battle Titan in two, or a muttered syllable can turn an army upon itself in a frenzy of bloodlust. With such godlike power at their disposal, it is small wonder that Alpha-level psykers are amongst the most dreaded of foes that the Ordo Hereticus of the Inquisition must face.
loota boy wrote:
Mostly because of power inflation on errybody. And because they won't all work with each other normally. The OP states that they all work together, so we end up with crazy combinations.
They will work together to a certain extent. So we can't really expect Thor to be carrying Apocalypse from ship to ship. At best we can expect that they won't be actively killing each other.
Prof. X doesn't mindwipe people because he has some stupid thing called "Morals." .
So he wouldn't be able to bring himself to end/otherwise-alter the millions of human lives in the Imperial Fleet?
While I personally believe that Marvel would win this fight, and i know that my answer will only hurt that goal, I cannot tell a lie. Yes, Professer X would be vehemenatly AGAINST popping the heads of millions of minds of the fleets. He may pause them, or attempt to control them briefly, but Professor X is generally against killing in near any situation. He would not mind-crush the fleet, or manipulate its commanders to detonate their warp drives, or force the gunners to fire upon other ships. He is generally in favor of non-lethal force. He would, however, mind-PAUSE the whole fleet without hesitation, but would most likely need the help of cerebro for a feat so large. I also do believe he would mind-crush certain space marine chapters. Most likely not the more emphatic ones, like space wolves and salamanders, but probably would splatter the heads of chapters that hate non-marines in any form. I believe the Silver Skulls is one of them?
No no, I mean the citation that 30 of those Alpha psykers were not released and recaptured within a week. The citation that proves that those Alpha psykers could not have actually been Alpha psykers.
Hazardous Harry wrote:Lance batteries generally level continents.
A greater daemon of Tzeentch would kill hulk in a single blow. Once hulk is hit (hulk dont really dodge) his soul will be renderd from his body and no amount of regeneration power allows you to regenerate your soul.
Or just for the fun of it "gift of chaos".
Kinda sure that the IoM have something that rends the soul from the body, so all this talk about the Hulk doing the job by himself only last until someone figure this out.
Or just capture him and trow him into the sun, once his feet is of the ground he's kinda screwed.
Not to say that he will wreck a lot of havoc before that.
salix_fatuus wrote:A greater daemon of Tzeentch would kill hulk in a single blow. Once hulk is hit (hulk dont really dodge) his soul will be renderd from his body and no amount of regeneration power allows you to regenerate your soul.
Or just for the fun of it "gift of chaos".
Kinda sure that the IoM have something that rends the soul from the body, so all this talk about the Hulk doing the job by himself only last until someone figure this out.
Or just capture him and trow him into the sun, once his feet is of the ground he's kinda screwed.
Not to say that he will wreck a lot of havoc before that.
That's all well and good, of course, but when was the last time that a standard imperial invasion force enlisted the help of Greater Daemons of Tzeentch? If they do, then, well, the GK will be here soon to solve THAT problem....
asimo77 wrote:I don't know much about comic books but from what it sounds like Marvel must be the most boring universe ever. How is anything ever even a threat to the heroes? What are the stakes with the Hulk who is apparently untouchable? Why have any conflict at all when there's dozens of reality bending gods? I think at some point you get so OTT it gets boring. After reading the posts here I can't imagine feeling any sense of danger or tension in a Marvel story.
I agree with you a 100%.
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loota boy wrote:
salix_fatuus wrote:A greater daemon of Tzeentch would kill hulk in a single blow. Once hulk is hit (hulk dont really dodge) his soul will be renderd from his body and no amount of regeneration power allows you to regenerate your soul.
Or just for the fun of it "gift of chaos".
Kinda sure that the IoM have something that rends the soul from the body, so all this talk about the Hulk doing the job by himself only last until someone figure this out.
Or just capture him and trow him into the sun, once his feet is of the ground he's kinda screwed.
Not to say that he will wreck a lot of havoc before that.
That's all well and good, of course, but when was the last time that a standard imperial invasion force enlisted the help of Greater Daemons of Tzeentch? If they do, then, well, the GK will be here soon to solve THAT problem....
What I thought it was standard "take over a planet" issue to enlist Greater Daemons of Tzeentch Joking aside of course I don't mean that a Greater Daemons of Tzeentch would help the IoM, I just mentioned it as an example that 40k have a lot of stuff that kills even monsters like the Hulk with ease. Should have pointed that out in first post sry
And I would think with the intense battle that eventually would ravage earth and all the psykers going at each other that eventually Daemons might breakthrough and join the fight.
salix_fatuus wrote:Joking aside of course I don't mean that a Greater Daemons of Tzeentch would help the IoM, I just mentioned it as an example that 40k have a lot of stuff that kills even monsters like the Hulk with ease. Should have pointed that out in first post sry
Good to know you're paying attention and following the instructions.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Oh carnage..yeah that be a good one. He would love picking apart SM, they would have little change with him. He might toy with em though. People also forget how powerful spider man really is. as he is inhumanly fast, can feel the attack coming and can left about 10 or so tons.
Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).
Hazardous Harry wrote:
I don't know how you think Cable is going to get his hands on Imperial Tech when it's flying around in orbit. And even if Proffessor Xavier could mind sweep the shielded fleet (and not go crazy upon viewing the horrors of the warp) how is he going to get the information to Magneto?
You are just trying to neat pick by this point. How does anyone get anyone any info at any given time? MU high tech stuff makes the IoM tech look downright archaic. Mags himself is such a genius with an understanding of technology out stripping that used by the Iom that he could most likely just figure it out himself.
You are not getting that the MU simply outclasses the IoM in about every way you can outclass something.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding. You said he survived his entire island being nuked. Lance batteries generally level continents. And why would the ship get only 1 shot? It's a whole battery of lances, not a single lance.
And you are ignoring the fact the fleet never gets close to earth, not even slightly, if lucky they might see mars. MU knows they are coming, there is not any scenario in which tat fleet is not hit as soon as it lands in real space.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.
2) There are a assassins and then there Officio Assasinorum operatives. We're talking a whole different level of competence here. Unless Magneto had some means of detecting the polymorphine drug, which he clearly doesn't.
What type of metal it is has nothing to do with it, he has hurled folks across rooms by the iron in there blood alone. You are really and truly underestimating your target. And yes as Mags can craft meta humans he has ways of detecting such. He understands more about the meta gene then about anyone alive. You are willfully ignoring his capabilities.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Again, how is he going to teleport through the shields?
Because. He.Can. He is the mastery of powers and technologies nothing in 40k can handle and that is just the fact of the matter. No one knows how he does it, no one can really stop him if he really wants to. His mind is so post human no one knows why he does some things or can conceive how he does them.
I think I am done trading shots with you. Every post I have to repeat the same stuff, stuff you can easily go look up and every time you ignore it as if ignoring it changes it. Marvels 616 earth operates at a level far outreaching 40.The settings just do not work in the same levels. I know thois is a 40k site and all, but facts are facts and truth is truth.
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salix_fatuus wrote:
Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).
I agree in the long run someone might get him. But then he does not do stand up fights. He is a monster, a beast a murder and psychopath. They would get him in numbers, but how many would they loose to one man? His is Pairmach level of power or better.
asimo77 wrote:I know I sound like a broken record but I still cannot fathom how anyone does anything ever in the Marvel world. If Magneto can apparently throw around things in the solar sytem why hasn't he just catapulted entire cities into orbit? How could he possibly lose to the X Men? Or how is it that Prof X hasn't just "lol mind-wiped" everyone into good guys or something? And that's just a couple of X-Men.
How is there ever an alien invasion plot in the Marevl universe if apparently they can be willed out of existence, have a god fly through their ship, teleport their insides outside of their bodies, have their fleet hurled into a sun, etc. If it is so easy to stop something that large then what passes for a threat in the Marvel universe? Is it just gods beating each other up and sometimes Spiderman? How does anything happen in a Marvel comic without you going "why didn't he just do that and end it all right now?" at every panel since everyone is so seemingly powerful.
Same reason the Chaos gods didn't intervene and just lolsmite the Emperor, or Gork and Mork don't unite all the tribes and wipe out the galaxy. It's called plot. Thor doesn't show up in the X-men comics to save them all from an alien invasion because the comic is called X-men, not Thor and Those Other Guys.
I mean, if you're gonna ask about stupid-out-of-whack stories, do I need to mention Calgar vs. Avatar?
Well if I wanted to know about 40k I would have asked about 40k. As far as Chaos goes there's the whole can't materialize in the real world and stuff like that. 40k surprisingly seems to have more rules so to speak. But I think most other posters have answered my questions and I think I can leave this thread satisfied. I think I'm just one of those guys that comics just don't work with.
asimo77 wrote:. I think I'm just one of those guys that comics just don't work with.
All in the setting man, Marvel or DC may not be for you. But if ya do not mind preacher level of gore and sex..read " The Boy's" by dynamite publishing. I have a sinking feeling you would love it as it pokes fun and turns "beloved" comic icons into well people with inhuman power. The series only has one or two issues left But I simply can not recommend it enough. Also if ya can find them the "Authority" by image comics, not the new stuff that has been mismashed with the current Dc time line.
I mean I really enjoyed all the animated stuff especially the DCAU which is like my entire childhood. And on the Marvel side the Spiderman and X-men cartoons were great, but it seems the comics are wildly different. Plus it would be intimidating to try to just jump into an entire mythos and universe that has been decades in the making (though I suppose the same could be said of 40k). Most of all though I think it would break my heart to see all the cartoon characters I grew up with deal with serious issues.
The only comic I've read is "Watchmen", which was great but felt rather removed from its own universe; and now that the Telltale game is out im considering getting the "Walking Dead".
Ok I'm done derailing this thread with my own views on comics!
P.S. I always thought the Punisher was so lame. His powers are wearing skull shirts and guns Super heroes can be super just not too super.
Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).
Hunterindarkness
I agree in the long run someone might get him. But then he does not do stand up fights. He is a monster, a beast a murder and psychopath. They would get him in numbers, but how many would they loose to one man? His is Pairmach level of power or better.
True that he is not a stand up fighter and would do better with hit and run attacks, taking out weak and vulnerable targets. So yes the IoM would most likely loose a lot o men to him. But then again numbers is what the IoM have, "Send in the next wave". Thou I thought of something and please correct me if i'm wrong. Since Carnage have such a high level of weakness to fire (heat) then don't that mean that even a simple lasgun would be highly lethal for him?
asimo77 wrote:I didn't know that, but it still strikes me as funny.
A guy who wears a skull t-shirt and likes to shoot things sounds more like my older brother than a super hero
He is not really a "Super Hero" but he is a Vigilante outcast that kills almost everyone he faces. Except Wolverine, he cant touch Wolverine, the best he could do was make Wolverine attack him near a power station, and he dodged at just the right time making Wolverine contact some high voltage wires. This did not kill wolverine, but he was unable to move because of the electricity running through his body. then he escaped, because he knew the power would short out and Wolverine would regenerate.
Back on topic: there is nothing the IoM could do that would leave them winning against Marvel Earth.
The Avengers were 4 superheros (1 of them a human in suit) and 2 Semi-Superhero's (Hawkeye and Black Widow), and they kicked all types of invading army arse!
Hunterindarkness wrote:The Marvel universe is one of the few that could not only hold its own vs 40k, but completely decimate it. professor x alone could mindwrip the whole planet, at will. The Hulk has been brought but..You. Can. Not.Stop.The.Hulk. If you are really lucky you can slow him, Good Ol Magneto can pull the earth off its axis at will, good luck bringing a fleet. Franklin Richards..just, Game over man, game over.And as for the Nids? Well already been there, done that. The brood did not do so hot, nor did any other Nid like beastly the MU has introduced over the years.
One other note. I would pay good money, No joke to see Deadpool run though a space Marine Chapter, wise creaking all the way.
To be fair, the Brood DID get Xavier-the one we've known since about 1985 is a clone-the real Xavier was infected by a Brood and the X-men had to put him down. The Shi-Ar cloned him (he was even able to walk again for a time). Of course, that probably ruined at least one person's night on here. If I actually wanted to dig out my Claremont anthologies, I'd give the exact number. Instead, google it for his death. But yes, the Brood always lose, and they aren't any bit nicer than Nids. Nids lose to Marvel Earth, even if that isn't the discussion in question.
And to the guy with the Tau avatar who keeps thinking the Imperium of Man would win...I forgot your name, but do some research in the Marvel universe. Your precious IoM is screwed in this fight-Hulk wants to smash you right now for not siding with him. The only point you made that I agree with is Tony Stark/Iron Man not being able to take out the Marines. I think they'd get him-he isn't invincible. Hulk, Sentry, Thor, and Ares (before Sentry went nuclear on him) would all like to chime in and will each kill an entire ship of marines by themselves. Give Carnage, Venom and Wolverine each free reign over 5 legions of IG and those 3 will win. The IG will have no opportunity to flame Carnage or Venom. MAYBE if they realize that high-pitched sonics can harm them, they'd stand a chance. Oh, and let's add Red Hulk, Abomination, A-Bomb, She Hulk, Red She-Hulk and Colossus/Juggernaut 3 in for gaks and giggles. And if, IF, those guys fail, we still have Xavier to mind wipe everyone and Magneto to turn all their weapons against them/crush them in their armor. IoM had best leave Marvel Earth alone. Arguing with a Marvel nerd like me in this case is SERIOUSLY a losing battle.
As per the OP, at this point in time the Molecule Man isn't dead yet, that happens later I believe. If not, he's only dead for as long as the Sentry wants him to be.
Thor, Ares and Wolverine won't die from age. There are a few others who can probably expand their lives if they put their minds to it-Franklin Richards, Proteus (Moira MacTaggert's son), Legion (Xavier's son), and possibly Hulk-not too sure, depends on how mad he gets at The Aging Process (I felt it deserved to be addressed as a proper noun if Hulk is getting pissed at it). Sentry may be able to ignore the aging process as well. Oh, and Apocalypse. He doesn't die either, he just loses a lot. I saw somebody mention Sinister earlier, but Sinister is mortal-he clones himself and imprints his knowledge into the clone to "remain young." His first failed clone was Gambit, spliced with Cyclops' DNA. Probably pissed MORE of you off now, by putting that out there.
Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).
Hunterindarkness I agree in the long run someone might get him. But then he does not do stand up fights. He is a monster, a beast a murder and psychopath. They would get him in numbers, but how many would they loose to one man? His is Pairmach level of power or better.
True that he is not a stand up fighter and would do better with hit and run attacks, taking out weak and vulnerable targets. So yes the IoM would most likely loose a lot o men to him. But then again numbers is what the IoM have, "Send in the next wave". Thou I thought of something and please correct me if i'm wrong. Since Carnage have such a high level of weakness to fire (heat) then don't that mean that even a simple lasgun would be highly lethal for him?
Lasers aren't fire, just energy.
Also, in terms of sheer insane ferocity, Carnage is more akin to an Eversor assassin and far, far stronger and tougher. He is stronger than Spider man and has superior powers. Actually, Carnage is more like ten Eversor Assassins...
Also, I doubt Carnage would get touched by flame. He is simply too fast. When you can jump 3 stories on a bad day, I think you're safe from any noob with a flamer.
clearly you dont know carnage. a vehicle exploding next to him dosent even casue him so much as a headache. you need intense sonics or high heat or both, and even then you probally only slow him down. venom on the other hand is a bit more vulnerable to those things, but he is also more strategic. carnage would just rampage through the lines, no issues. and if the slightest sound of blast is a concern, then how come it didnt phase him in maximum carnage? he was constantly being pestered by police (with sirens) and he was exploding vehicles left right and center. plus, he was able to withstand the sonic torture he administed to venom.
carnage is not the most powerful, but he would sure as heck tear any ground forces short of a titan a new one pretty fast. and im willing to bet hed have good odds on a titan. just get up close and personal, then can opener and enjoy the squishy insides. simply becasue aside from his pure brute force power, and psychotic killing prowess, hes FRIGGING FAST - comparable if not faster then spiderman. (who is arguablly one of marvels most agile and speedy characters - aside from flash)
Carnage dangerous as he is would not be much of a threat in the long run. Flamers would be applied the moment he is noticed and his ridiculous vulnerability to high levels of sounds would render him writhing in pain the moment anything explodes or a tank fires near him, and if he is stupid to attack a tank and the thing goes boom then there goes carnage with it (if he was in 40k he would have "vulnerable to blasts" *5).
Hunterindarkness
I agree in the long run someone might get him. But then he does not do stand up fights. He is a monster, a beast a murder and psychopath. They would get him in numbers, but how many would they loose to one man? His is Pairmach level of power or better.
True that he is not a stand up fighter and would do better with hit and run attacks, taking out weak and vulnerable targets. So yes the IoM would most likely loose a lot o men to him. But then again numbers is what the IoM have, "Send in the next wave". Thou I thought of something and please correct me if i'm wrong. Since Carnage have such a high level of weakness to fire (heat) then don't that mean that even a simple lasgun would be highly lethal for him?
Lasers aren't fire, just energy.
Also, in terms of sheer insane ferocity, Carnage is more akin to an Eversor assassin and far, far stronger and tougher. He is stronger than Spider man and has superior powers. Actually, Carnage is more like ten Eversor Assassins...
Also, I doubt Carnage would get touched by flame. He is simply too fast. When you can jump 3 stories on a bad day, I think you're safe from any noob with a flamer.
Yes lasers aren't fire but they are a temperature based weapon and fire is dangerous against carnage and whats makes fire dangerous? the temperature. So a lasgun produce a beam with a temperature strong enough to kill a human (and tougher stuff as well) and since carnage is by far less resilient against fire than a human then a lasguns beam would be something like str 9 with ap 1 vs carnage. With that he can be how fast as he want since there is no way he can dodge the amount of lasgun fire the IoM can bring down upon him.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Having problem with the quotations :(
Hunterindarkness wrote:The Marvel universe is one of the few that could not only hold its own vs 40k, but completely decimate it. professor x alone could mindwrip the whole planet, at will. The Hulk has been brought but..You. Can. Not.Stop.The.Hulk. If you are really lucky you can slow him, Good Ol Magneto can pull the earth off its axis at will, good luck bringing a fleet. Franklin Richards..just, Game over man, game over.And as for the Nids? Well already been there, done that. The brood did not do so hot, nor did any other Nid like beastly the MU has introduced over the years.
One other note. I would pay good money, No joke to see Deadpool run though a space Marine Chapter, wise creaking all the way.
To be fair, the Brood DID get Xavier-the one we've known since about 1985 is a clone-the real Xavier was infected by a Brood and the X-men had to put him down. The Shi-Ar cloned him (he was even able to walk again for a time). Of course, that probably ruined at least one person's night on here. If I actually wanted to dig out my Claremont anthologies, I'd give the exact number. Instead, google it for his death. But yes, the Brood always lose, and they aren't any bit nicer than Nids. Nids lose to Marvel Earth, even if that isn't the discussion in question.
And to the guy with the Tau avatar who keeps thinking the Imperium of Man would win...I forgot your name, but do some research in the Marvel universe. Your precious IoM is screwed in this fight-Hulk wants to smash you right now for not siding with him. The only point you made that I agree with is Tony Stark/Iron Man not being able to take out the Marines. I think they'd get him-he isn't invincible. Hulk, Sentry, Thor, and Ares (before Sentry went nuclear on him) would all like to chime in and will each kill an entire ship of marines by themselves. Give Carnage, Venom and Wolverine each free reign over 5 legions of IG and those 3 will win. The IG will have no opportunity to flame Carnage or Venom.
Of course they would. Any guardsman with a flamer, melta or plasma gun would have a chance of incinerating Carnage or Venom.
Wolverine would be a problem, but that matter might well be settled by a force weapon. I honestly don't know what kind of effect that would have. If not, then again the C'tan phase sword can cut through anything.
Logan: "Hey *insert trusted teamate here*"
Callidus Assassin: "Hey, Logan."
Logan: "Is that a new perfu-" SHANK.
Callidus Assassin: "Ahem."
There might be a question of whether Wolverine would be able to scent the difference in a Callidus Assassin (perhaps if he was paying close attention), but given that polymorphine suits stand up to even the most stringent of identity checks it's highly unlikely.
And if, IF, those guys fail, we still have Xavier to mind wipe everyone and Magneto to turn all their weapons against them/crush them in their armor. IoM had best leave Marvel Earth alone. Arguing with a Marvel nerd like me in this case is SERIOUSLY a losing battle.
Well where was Xavier when that Skrull Invasion was going on?
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Hunterindarkness wrote:
Hazardous Harry wrote:
I don't know how you think Cable is going to get his hands on Imperial Tech when it's flying around in orbit. And even if Proffessor Xavier could mind sweep the shielded fleet (and not go crazy upon viewing the horrors of the warp) how is he going to get the information to Magneto?
You are just trying to neat pick by this point. How does anyone get anyone any info at any given time? MU high tech stuff makes the IoM tech look downright archaic. Mags himself is such a genius with an understanding of technology out stripping that used by the Iom that he could most likely just figure it out himself.
You are not getting that the MU simply outclasses the IoM in about every way you can outclass something.
Where is your justification for this? MU technology is more complex than IoM, Magneto could reverse engineer technology that he has absolutely no understanding on. You're not getting that your favourite characters are no longer protected by plot armour. Deus Ex Machina's don't come into play here. Discuss actual capabilities, not "Well they would come up with something".
Hazardous Harry wrote:
I think you're misunderstanding. You said he survived his entire island being nuked. Lance batteries generally level continents. And why would the ship get only 1 shot? It's a whole battery of lances, not a single lance.
And you are ignoring the fact the fleet never gets close to earth, not even slightly, if lucky they might see mars. MU knows they are coming, there is not any scenario in which tat fleet is not hit as soon as it lands in real space.
Marvel Earth knows about the impending invasion. There's nothing to suggest that Magneto would be adverse to the IoM killing most of his opponents before quickly wiping out the Imperials himself, creating a Mutant Paradise. Hell, he might just be arrogant even to try it. It's certainly not the craziest plan he's come up with.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
1) The Callidus Assasin's of the Officio Assasinorum are equipped with them. If you read the link the sword can cut through literally anything, including energy barriers so Magneto's shield is out. It is encased in metal (of an unknown type) so Magneto would be able control it. But he would have to be able to see it coming first.
2) There are a assassins and then there Officio Assasinorum operatives. We're talking a whole different level of competence here. Unless Magneto had some means of detecting the polymorphine drug, which he clearly doesn't.
What type of metal it is has nothing to do with it, he has hurled folks across rooms by the iron in there blood alone. You are really and truly underestimating your target. And yes as Mags can craft meta humans he has ways of detecting such. He understands more about the meta gene then about anyone alive. You are willfully ignoring his capabilities.
I am wilfully ignoring his capabilities? Sorry, but I distinctly recall a certain mutant by the name of 'Mystique' that was very talented when it came to this kind of thing. How would he be able to detect the Callidus Assassin, yet not Mystique?
I'm not pretending the Callidus would stand a chance against Magneto in a straight up fight. I'm telling you that the first thing Magneto will know about the Callidus would be a C'tan phase sword through his skull.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Again, how is he going to teleport through the shields?
Because. He.Can. He is the mastery of powers and technologies nothing in 40k can handle and that is just the fact of the matter. No one knows how he does it, no one can really stop him if he really wants to. His mind is so post human no one knows why he does some things or can conceive how he does them.
This is getting to the point where you're no longer interested in discussion, but more about promoting adulation of your favourite characters. I'm willing to admit that the Imperium has weaknesses in this regard (hence why a Callidus Assassin would be better suited to do in Magneto than a fleet), but you won't even bother to justify your assertions in this matter anymore.
I think I am done trading shots with you. Every post I have to repeat the same stuff, stuff you can easily go look up and every time you ignore it as if ignoring it changes it. Marvels 616 earth operates at a level far outreaching 40.The settings just do not work in the same levels. I know thois is a 40k site and all, but facts are facts and truth is truth.
Okay, it's clear you're not willing to entertain the fact that the MU might have any weaknesses at all. I mean, heaven forbid something actually threatening your favourite comic of all time!
I apologise if I have come across as a little aggressive, I'm just trying to have an engaging discussion.
No man I just see no point in debating with someone who willing refuses to look up the subject matter and willy ignores things they dislike. Be cause he can is not ignoring or trying to dodge a debate it is simply a statement. Be cause he really and truly can and if you do not think his tech is levels and leagues above40k stuff you really are not informed about him at all.
The best you have is rehash of comic arcs that where done in the 80's or 90's. Oh lets send as blue lady look alike to kill magento! he could never tell! Or have an henchman turn on him dun dun dun! Its been done to death, over and over and over. Back in the asteroid M days everyone who sat foot upon the station was scanned and he know who and what they were, even if they did not know he knew. I read all those plots you keep saying would work ages ago.
They have been tried by deadlier and more powerful people.
I am not picking my favorite characters I am simply telling you 40k is out of its league on this one
@Hazardous Harry: sure, the guardsmen have a .0001% chance of actually being able to hit Carnage or Venom with a flamer. Likely they'll kill their own guys instead. They can both alter what they look like to sneak up on their target and kill quietly. Shapeshifters and all. And only the miramasa (spelling) blade is powerful enough to kill Wolverine-it was tempered in his blood, I believe. A force weapon will temporarily take him out of the fight.
You're one of two people in this thread who actually believes the IoM would win, and everyone else has sided with Marvel and has given overwhelming support to their reasons. It's time to admit defeat.
Oh, and I believe Xavier was temporarily powerless during Skrull invasion. 95% of the time, he's at full power.
The only rational point made was about Magneto-old Magneto would let the IoM kill off most of humanity first, then stop it. New age Magneto works for Cyclops as one of the X-men. Cyke is gonna tell him to wipe the marines out while they're still in orbit. Oops.
Hunterindarkness wrote:No man I just see no point in debating with someone who willing refuses to look up the subject matter and willy ignores things they dislike. Be cause he can is not ignoring or trying to dodge a debate it is simply a statement. Be cause he really and truly can and if you do not think his tech is levels and leagues above40k stuff you really are not informed about him at all.
Except you've given no me nothing to work with here. You've just said 'He can'. No grounding, no comparisons, not even a description of asses he has kicked beforehand. 'His tech is way above 40k stuff' is a statement, a statement that needs evidence.
The best you have is rehash of comic arcs that where done in the 80's or 90's. Oh lets send as blue lady look alike to kill magento! he could never tell! Or have an henchman turn on him dun dun dun! Its been done to death, over and over and over. Back in the asteroid M days everyone who sat foot upon the station was scanned and he know who and what they were, even if they did not know he knew. I read all those plots you keep saying would work ages ago.
Professor Xavier could not detect who was who during the Secret Invasion. If anything the ability of a Callidus Assassin is just as, if not more so, adept as a Skrull at infiltration. Callidus Assassin's routinely pass highly advanced scans of their persons without breaking a sweat. Where is your evidence that Magneto would be any the wiser that one of his henchmen was not who he said he was?
The plots you keep saying won't work only fail to kill Magneto because they were either done by amateurs or because he is (as the main antagonist of the X-men) protected by a hefty amount of plot armour.
They have been tried by deadlier and more powerful people.
I am not picking my favorite characters I am simply telling you 40k is out of its league on this one
And you're trying to make these guys sound infallible. They are most certainly not.
asimo77 wrote:. I think I'm just one of those guys that comics just don't work with.
All in the setting man, Marvel or DC may not be for you. But if ya do not mind preacher level of gore and sex..read " The Boy's" by dynamite publishing. I have a sinking feeling you would love it as it pokes fun and turns "beloved" comic icons into well people with inhuman power. The series only has one or two issues left But I simply can not recommend it enough. Also if ya can find them the "Authority" by image comics, not the new stuff that has been mismashed with the current Dc time line.
Oh yeah, Preacher and the Authority are both brilliant comics. Though the Authority can get a bit silly, like with the whole "Spirit of the Century" and the "King of the Cities thing."
I still have no idea how he could control cities...
@Hazardous Harry Go to marvels page, do some searches. I am not saying they lack flaws, I am saying they are well and above the IoM's ability to handle. If you honesly think you can sneak a C'tan sword into mag's room while he is sleeping you really are underestimating the man.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh yeah, Preacher and the Authority are both brilliant comics. Though the Authority can get a bit silly, like with the whole "Spirit of the Century" and the "King of the Cities thing."
I still have no idea how he could control cities...
Yes, but at lest they addressed issues other comics missed and the Jenny's were awesome. I missed sparks when she was gone.
Hunterindarkness wrote:@Hazardous Harry Go to marvels page, do some searches. I am not saying they lack flaws, I am saying they are well and above the IoM's ability to handle. If you honesly think you can sneak a C'tan sword into mag's room while he is sleeping you really are underestimating the man.
Could you at least provide me with a link to a place with decent stats? All the ones I've searched up by myself have been wildly inconsistent.
As for assassinating Magneto, the Callidus Assassin wouldn't need to sneak into his room. The Callidus could stab Magneto, in the face, mid-conversation. Or from behind if you think Magneto's reaction time would be truly superhuman. On top of that, as another poster has mentioned, the C'tan Phase Sword is unlikely to even be magnetic.
He told you to go to the marvel character database. Marvel.com, if you can't find it yourself. And is the sword made of metal? Magneto has trained himself to be able to manipulate ANY metal now, not just magnetic ones.
Hunterindarkness wrote:@Hazardous Harry Go to marvels page, do some searches. I am not saying they lack flaws, I am saying they are well and above the IoM's ability to handle. If you honesly think you can sneak a C'tan sword into mag's room while he is sleeping you really are underestimating the man.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Oh yeah, Preacher and the Authority are both brilliant comics. Though the Authority can get a bit silly, like with the whole "Spirit of the Century" and the "King of the Cities thing."
I still have no idea how he could control cities...
Yes, but at lest they addressed issues other comics missed and the Jenny's were awesome. I missed sparks when she was gone.
Oh yeah, Jenny Sparks was a great character. Such a strong personality.
Well, that proves the Marvel creative staff failed science Seriously, he's called magneto, which would imply he uses magnetism, and as such has no power against non-magnetic substances.
The fact that he can use magnetism to control non-magnetic substances kinda makes his name a misnomer.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, that proves the Marvel creative staff failed science Seriously, he's called magneto, which would imply he uses magnetism, and as such has no power against non-magnetic substances.
The fact that he can use magnetism to control non-magnetic substances kinda makes his name a misnomer.
Yes, that is how all supernames come about. Spiderman is obviously not a spider and Iron Man wears a suit.of Gold and Titanium alloy.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:Well, that proves the Marvel creative staff failed science Seriously, he's called magneto, which would imply he uses magnetism, and as such has no power against non-magnetic substances.
The fact that he can use magnetism to control non-magnetic substances kinda makes his name a misnomer.
Yes, that is how all supernames come about. Spiderman is obviously not a spider and Iron Man wears a suit.of Gold and Titanium alloy.
Well, Spiderman is basically a human-spider hybrid, so he's fine.
Ironman sounds cooler than GoldTitMan...and wasn't the ironman suit iron to begin with?
@Cthululs Spy. He has 'evolved'..... The level of power creep in MU would make the most rabid of 40K writers blush. When Magneto started it was just simple magnetic fields and magnetic metals. And rapidly went downhill from there.
@Hazardous Harry. I have no idea, but looking at the baseline, when you have one person who can manipulate metals (apparently including the non-magnetic ones) and then you have an item described consistently as metal, the logical conclusion is that he can affect it. A better arguement for your side is to see if he can affect phased objects, eg any story involving Kitty Pryde?
And is the sword made of metal? Magneto has trained himself to be able to manipulate ANY metal now, not just magnetic ones.
I've read through the entry, nowhere does it say he that. I might be wrong, but I'll need to see where you're getting this from.
Seeing how I'm at work and don't have the entry memorized, yes it was more effort than I wanted to put in for you. And read a comic or two where magneto is captured-he is kept in plastic jails to prevent him from manipulating metal. Do you believe all metals used in the marvel universe are magnetic? No. Yet Magneto can manipulate them anyway. His abilities shown in comics plus a degree of common sense are needed. Marvel is a wiki-the information in there is what people edit in. Details can be left out.
AndrewC wrote:
@Hazardous Harry. I have no idea, but looking at the baseline, when you have one person who can manipulate metals (apparently including the non-magnetic ones) and then you have an item described consistently as metal, the logical conclusion is that he can affect it. A better arguement for your side is to see if he can affect phased objects, eg any story involving Kitty Pryde?
Well my argument is based more on the fact that he would never see the attack coming in the first place. And all I can find on him and Kitty Pryde is that he apparently saved her from that 'Space Bullet', though I would imagine that was by affecting the bullet rather than Pryde herself.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ironman sounds cooler than GoldTitMan...and wasn't the ironman suit iron to begin with?
Actually, GoldTitMan has a pretty nice ring to it. It might catch on.
He is capable of using all energy forms, he is capable of holding people by the iron content in blood alone.
Magneto expects to be the target of assassins at all time, It is simply how he thinks, he is public emery number 1 and has been since the 60's. You have yet covered how a mere human gets close enough?
If you are not a mutant you do not get that close and if you are not someone he has trusted for decades you never , ever get him unaware.
He knows they are coming. Do you really think he does not expect assassins?
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hold on, if Magneto can manipulate all metals...then why is Stark still alive? Shouldn't he be a pancake by now?
Honestly as magneto does not kill all that much and tends to hold himself in check. The one time he did not, someone got their skeleton ripped out though the pores of their skin. Magneto is a plotter ,a thinker with a cause. He is capable of great acts of violence, but there is always a point to it. Also Stark is not that stupid.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Ironman sounds cooler than GoldTitMan...and wasn't the ironman suit iron to begin with?
Hunterindarkness wrote:He is capable of using all energy forms, he is capable of holding people by the iron content in blood alone.
Magneto expects to be the target of assassins at all time, It is simply how he thinks, he is public emery number 1 and has been since the 60's. You have yet covered how a mere human gets close enough?
If you are not a mutant you do not get that close and if you are not someone he has trusted for decades you never , ever get him unaware.
He knows they are coming. Do you really think he does not expect assassins?
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Hold on, if Magneto can manipulate all metals...then why is Stark still alive? Shouldn't he be a pancake by now?
Honestly as magneto does not kill all that much and tends to hold himself in check. The one time he did not, someone got their skeleton ripped out though the pores of their skin. Magneto is a plotter ,a thinker with a cause. He is capable of great acts of violence, but there is always a point to it.
This. Magneto strikes back when provoked. He tried to distance himself peacefully from earth and humanity many times, and humans always launched the attack and he defended. As for keeping himself in check, see the 'Joseph' storyline for what happens if he lets himself use his powers at full strength without the fail safes he created in himself. Around issue #370 I believe. Have the full story, don't remember exact issues.
Hunterindarkness wrote:He is capable of using all energy forms, he is capable of holding people by the iron content in blood alone.
Magneto expects to be the target of assassins at all time, It is simply how he thinks, he is public emery number 1 and has been since the 60's. You have yet covered how a mere human gets close enough?
If you are not a mutant you do not get that close and if you are not someone he has trusted for decades you never , ever get him unaware.
He knows they are coming. Do you really think he does not expect assassins?
I bolded where you went wrong. The assassins of the inquisition are not mere humans. They have been so heavily modified and conditioned that they are now little more than killing machines. Yes, he will expect assassins...but he will not expect these sort of assassins. These are assassins that are sent after farseers and sorcerers, both of which are arguably much more dangerous than magneto. They are designed to hunt things like him. And if he kills one, so what? There are many more.
Ok,
Callidus Assassins - Basically Mystique...except there are many of them, and they come with weapons that can penetrate all forms of defenses. Vindicare Assassin - Marksmen that could probably impress even Bullseye and Hawkeye, who seldom miss his targets. Oh, and there more of them than both of them Culexus Assassin -....ok, he's probably useless, unless he somehow works against marvel sorcerers. Which I doubt. Exescor - Insane. Basically Deadpool, but without the charm. And they explode upon death, and they are a lot more dangerous. Oh, and there are a bunch of them.
But they are Human. Mags never allows humans to get into his inner circle. and besides the mutants he normally battles..yes they are simply mere humans in power. That is the Issue, harry keeps saying it gets close to him...how? In combat that is not gonna happen, ever. He tends to hover 50 to 100 feet off the ground in a force field you can't get though.
Thats what i am getting at, they would have to kill him bare hands and honestly they are never getting that close.
Poison could work, in theory though( I can't think of any 40k ones that are worse then the big ugly's from MU however). But standard IoM assassination..no.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Callidus Assassins - Basically Mystique...except there are many of them, and they come with weapons that can penetrate all forms of defenses.
Vindicare Assassin - Marksmen that could probably impress even Bullseye and Hawkeye, who seldom miss his targets. Oh, and there more of them than both of them
Culexus Assassin -....ok, he's probably useless, unless he somehow works against marvel sorcerers. Which I doubt.
Exescor - Insane. Basically Deadpool, but without the charm. And they explode upon death, and they are a lot more dangerous. Oh, and there are a bunch of them.
!If they use a manufactured weapon they fail. There is no question to this. They simply do not have the power.
Mangneto is like attacking the God-Empoer x 10 man. He is that smart and yes that powerful. He can freaking knock the earth off its axis if he so chose to do so.
Hunterindarkness wrote:But they are Human. Mags never allows humans to get into his inner circle. and besides the mutants he normally battles..yes they are simply mere humans in power. That is the Issue, harry keeps saying it gets close to him...how?
By posing as someone whom he has trusted for decades. You need to read up on Callidus Assassins and what they're capable of.
Poison could work, in theory though( I can't think of any 40k ones that are worse then the big ugly's from MU however). But standard IoM assassination..no.
If anyone was going to use poison it would be a Callidus Assassin. The other Assassinorum Operatives tend to be less subtle.
Hunterindarkness wrote:But they are Human. Mags never allows humans to get into his inner circle. and besides the mutants he normally battles..yes they are simply mere humans in power. That is the Issue, harry keeps saying it gets close to him...how? In combat that is not gonna happen, ever. He tends to hover 50 to 100 feet off the ground in a force field you can't get though.
Thats what i am getting at, they would have to kill him bare hands and honestly they are never getting that close.
Poison could work, in theory though( I can't think of any 40k ones that are worse then the big ugly's from MU however). But standard IoM assassination..no.
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CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Callidus Assassins - Basically Mystique...except there are many of them, and they come with weapons that can penetrate all forms of defenses.
Vindicare Assassin - Marksmen that could probably impress even Bullseye and Hawkeye, who seldom miss his targets. Oh, and there more of them than both of them
Culexus Assassin -....ok, he's probably useless, unless he somehow works against marvel sorcerers. Which I doubt.
Exescor - Insane. Basically Deadpool, but without the charm. And they explode upon death, and they are a lot more dangerous. Oh, and there are a bunch of them.
!If they use a manufactured weapon they fail. There is no question to this. They simply do not have the power.
So no one around magneto carries weapons then? What about all of the electrical equipment that surrounds him?
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Hunterindarkness wrote:
He can freaking knock the earth off its axis if he so chose to do so.
I think I remember that one, actually.
Where was it from...Cry for Justice wasn't it?
By the gods, that was a stupid comic.
Hunterindarkness wrote:
Callidus Assassins - Basically Mystique...except there are many of them, and they come with weapons that can penetrate all forms of defenses.
Vindicare Assassin - Marksmen that could probably impress even Bullseye and Hawkeye, who seldom miss his targets. Oh, and there more of them than both of them
Culexus Assassin -....ok, he's probably useless, unless he somehow works against marvel sorcerers. Which I doubt.
Exescor - Insane. Basically Deadpool, but without the charm. And they explode upon death, and they are a lot more dangerous. Oh, and there are a bunch of them.
!If they use a manufactured weapon they fail. There is no question to this. They simply do not have the power.
As you've already pointed out, the chances of another type of Assassin getting to him is slim. However Magneto would have no way of knowing that any one of his henchmen, even his most trusted companions, was actually a Callidus Assassin.
Mangneto is like attacking the God-Empoer x 10 man. He is that smart and yes that powerful. He can freaking knock the earth off its axis if he so chose to do so.
He's more powerful than the God-Emperor? The same God-Emperor that keeps the daemonic hordes at bay? You might be getting a little bit OTT here.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
So no one around magneto carries weapons then? What about all of the electrical equipment that surrounds him?
They have no need for feeble weapons no. And often of his design anyhow what does that have to do with trying to kill him. Electricity won't do it.
CthuluIsSpy wrote:
I think I remember that one, actually.
Where was it from...Cry for Justice wasn't it?
By the gods, that was a stupid comic.
Hell if I know at this point man. I have not been a heavy reader since..01 or 02 and I honestly am not gonna dig though a few thousand old comics in storage to find out.
By posing as someone whom he has trusted for decades. You need to read up on Callidus Assassins and what they're capable of.
Yes I know how they work. I also Know the target and MU much better then you , that is clear.
It has been tried. It never works.If You think he fully trusts mystique then you are very,very mistaken.
The Callidus could be literally anyone. His daughter, his son. Hell, even his grandchild. Magneto is going to let his guard down sooner or later, even if it's only for any instant. Callidus Assassins have killed targets that would considered far more secure, and far more paranoid, than Magneto.
He's more powerful than the God-Emperor? The same God-Emperor that keeps the daemonic hordes at bay? You might be getting a little bit OTT here.
And this is the statement that clearly tells me you both do not understand the MU but choose to not understand. Yes Mags is more powerful the the GE, by a few levels. a good bit smarter as well based off the 40k fluff I have read. And someone like Apocalypse make the God-Empower look like an untrained child. I mean the GE was a powerful psychic and all, but not even close in power to MU's true big boys
I am not Joking there man. I keep trying to tell you that MU and 40k do not work on the same power scale.
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Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Callidus could be literally anyone. His daughter, his son. Hell, even his grandchild. Magneto is going to let his guard down sooner or later, even if it's only for any instant. Callidus Assassins have killed targets that would considered far more secure, and far more paranoid, than Magneto.
Possible, but as I said. It has been tried I think about 900 times now. Ok really about 40. And No they have never faced a target more " secure" or more powerfu.l Hell they couldn't even take out the night Haunter until he let em. And he had no where the power of a MU heavy hitter.
Magneto trusts nobody to that level. He trusted one man to this level, and it almost killed him-Fabian Cortez. He won't EVER make that mistake again. It really shows when people on this thread don't know the MU well-they're the ones railing against it. If magneto doesn't do something disasterous/deadly, it's because he chooses not to. He's one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. And does the emperor of man wear armor? Yes? Ok, Mags just killed him. Oooo, psychic abilities will stop him-nope, that's what the helmet is for. One on one, Magneto would destroy the Emperor. The fight would last as long as it would take Magneto to blink. If he could kill the emperor, do you really think the rest of the imperium has a shot?
Magneto has no relatives I know of. And besides, his right hand (wo)man is a shape shifter. He could probably tell the difference.
And for someone to get.close enough to assassinate Magneto, they would need to be part of his inner circle. That means the IOM would need to plan this decades in advance for enough people of his inner circle to die. As Marvel knows what's coming, Magneto would have caught on to.this randomder who has no superpower just suddenly joins his ring.
Deadshot wrote:Magneto has no relatives I know of. And besides, his right hand (wo)man is a shape shifter. He could probably tell the difference.
And for someone to get.close enough to assassinate Magneto, they would need to be part of his inner circle. That means the IOM would need to plan this decades in advance for enough people of his inner circle to die. As Marvel knows what's coming, Magneto would have caught on to.this randomder who has no superpower just suddenly joins his ring.
Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Polaris say hi. He has three relatives. Polaris depending what author you're listening to at the time.
Deadshot wrote:Magneto has no relatives I know of. And besides, his right hand (wo)man is a shape shifter. He could probably tell the difference.
He has two, Scarlet witch and Quick silver. He does not trust them all that much.
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timetowaste85 wrote:Magneto trusts nobody to that level. He trusted one man to this level, and it almost killed him-Fabian Cortez. He won't EVER make that mistake again. It really shows when people on this thread don't know the MU well-they're the ones railing against it. If magneto doesn't do something disasterous/deadly, it's because he chooses not to. He's one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. And does the emperor of man wear armor? Yes? Ok, Mags just killed him. Oooo, psychic abilities will stop him-nope, that's what the helmet is for. One on one, Magneto would destroy the Emperor. The fight would last as long as it would take Magneto to blink. If he could kill the emperor, do you really think the rest of the imperium has a shot?
Total agreement. I can see very easily who does not understand MU at all in this thread.
I'm actually starting to wonder if those who are rallying against the MU can officially be labeled as trolls in this thread? They obviously haven't got a clue, and keep arguing to just see their own words. It's getting boring and rather pathetic. I feel like I'm arguing with children here-and I feel like I'll look like an idiot eventually for doing so.
And there are Xmen characters more powerful than him. In Xmen 3 ( and yes films are as canon as BL
Mutant women talking showing her power to Magneto wrote:I also knowing no one in here is above a class 3, except for you.
At that point she indicates Magneto. For those that don't know in Xmen, mutants are categorised. Class 1 is for really simple, nonthreatening powers like being able to turn a TV on by blinking. Class 2 would be something like enhanced intelligence or Xray vision. Class 3 is where the real stuff like superspeed and flying kick in. Class 4 is for the powerful ones and Class 5 literally wrecks face. By this we can determine Magneto is either 4 or 5 but then we find this in the same film.
Charles Xavier AKA Professor X wrote: Jean is the only class 5 mutant I have ever met
I am getting to the point where I am seeing little reason to respond myself. I mean I know this is a 40k site, but sometimes you are out classed and out gunned.
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Deadshot wrote:And there are Xmen characters more powerful than him. In Xmen 3 ( and yes films are as canon as BL
They may be canon, but the movie versions are so damned weak vs the 616 MU versions. Easily 10 or 12 times weaker.
Deadshot wrote:Magneto has no relatives I know of. And besides, his right hand (wo)man is a shape shifter. He could probably tell the difference.
He has two, Scarlet witch and Quick silver. He does not trust them all that much.
He has embraced Scarlet witch in the past. That doesn't mean he fully lets his guard down in her presence, but she would definitely provide the opportunity that the Callidus Assassin would need.
timetowaste85 wrote:Magneto trusts nobody to that level. He trusted one man to this level, and it almost killed him-Fabian Cortez. He won't EVER make that mistake again. It really shows when people on this thread don't know the MU well-they're the ones railing against it. If magneto doesn't do something disasterous/deadly, it's because he chooses not to. He's one of the most powerful mutants on the planet. And does the emperor of man wear armor? Yes? Ok, Mags just killed him. Oooo, psychic abilities will stop him-nope, that's what the helmet is for. One on one, Magneto would destroy the Emperor. The fight would last as long as it would take Magneto to blink. If he could kill the emperor, do you really think the rest of the imperium has a shot?
Total agreement. I can see very easily who does not understand MU at all in this thread.
Actually, it's not clear whether Psyker powers are the same as Xavier's psychic abilities. If they are then he would surely be very vulnerable to daemonic possession. And if being made proof against psyker powers were so easy (it's not, how will a helmet prevent a psyker making his body explode from the inside out?) then the Inquisition would have come up with a similar sort of protection as well.
Magneto has been classified as a class 4 in the comics before, along with Iceman. I just don't remember what issue. Iceman would be a bad-arse addition to this war-he can't be killed (he'll reform over time-see Age of Apocalypse) and can literally freeze the blood of his victims, among other things. If he ever became a villain...watch out. A lot of people would die.
He's more powerful than the God-Emperor? The same God-Emperor that keeps the daemonic hordes at bay? You might be getting a little bit OTT here.
And this is the statement that clearly tells me you both do not understand the MU but choose to not understand. Yes Mags is more powerful the the GE, by a few levels. a good bit smarter as well based off the 40k fluff I have read. And someone like Apocalypse make the God-Empower look like an untrained child. I mean the GE was a powerful psychic and all, but not even close in power to MU's true big boys
I am not Joking there man. I keep trying to tell you that MU and 40k do not work on the same power scale.
I realise you're not joking. I also realise that you've made this assertion on really shaky grounds. Even if Magneto was fully capable of destroying an entire IN fleet as soon as it entered the solar system, this doesn't put him on the same level as either the Emperor or the Chaos Gods.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
The Callidus could be literally anyone. His daughter, his son. Hell, even his grandchild. Magneto is going to let his guard down sooner or later, even if it's only for any instant. Callidus Assassins have killed targets that would considered far more secure, and far more paranoid, than Magneto.
Possible, but as I said. It has been tried I think about 900 times now. Ok really about 40. And No they have never faced a target more " secure" or more powerfu.l Hell they couldn't even take out the night Haunter until he let em. And he had no where the power of a MU heavy hitter.
Really? People have impersonated his daughter and then stabbed him in the face with a weapon that can cut reality?
As the prof can effect Evey mind on earth it is a mote point. Pykers are not in the same league.
And last I checked you don't hug with weapons, he could have felt them. You are not getting him with assassins of that power level man. They are out of their league on him.
What in the name of the Goddess can they honestly do? His powers work at the speed of thought and every since Cortez he NEVER lets his guard down, that man was closer to him then his own children.
You are simply refusing to except that some things can't be done they way you think they can. Assassins will not work on him. Hell they couldn't even kill weak ass Night Haunter.
Explain that? How can they take out someone with god like power when they can't take out a weak emperor knock off?
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Hazardous Harry wrote:
Even if Magneto was fully capable of destroying an entire IN fleet as soon as it entered the solar system, this doesn't put him on the same level as either the Emperor
Ok you are trolling at this point man. The God Emperor could not pull that feat off in his wildest dreams.
I am not gonna respond to anything else you post in this thread as you are not even arguing canon facts at this point, but are in the realm of pure fanboi land.
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timetowaste85 wrote:Magneto has been classified as a class 4 in the comics before, along with Iceman. I just don't remember what issue. Iceman would be a bad-arse addition to this war-he can't be killed (he'll reform over time-see Age of Apocalypse) and can literally freeze the blood of his victims, among other things. If he ever became a villain...watch out. A lot of people would die.
I agree, I am not saying the class was wrong. Only that movie versions are way weak. Ice man is a pure beas, he does that in the current time line now as well. And AoA was the beast story arc xmen ever did if you ask me. Pure fantastic.
Hunterindarkness wrote:As the prof can effect Evey mind on earth it is a mote point. Pykers are not in the same league.
And last I checked you don't hug with weapons, he could have felt them. You are not getting him with assassins of that power level man. They are out of their league on him.
Really? You don't see anything that might constitute a perfect opportunity there?
What in the name of the Goddess can they honestly do? His powers work at the speed of thought and every since Cortez he NEVER lets his guard down, that man was closer to him then his own children.
How much of an opening do you think a Superhuman like a Callidus would need? Next to nothing. One moment Magneto will be talking to the Scarlet Witch about his great plans for mutantkind and the next moment he'll have a C'tan Phase Sword shoved hilt-deep into his skull. Exactly what is stopping that from happening?
You are simply refusing to except that some things can't be done they way you think they can. Assassins will not work on him. Hell they couldn't even kill weak ass Night Haunter.
And you are simply refusing to accept that Magneto might ever be killed. If the X-men can take him down, without the element of surprise, a Callidus Assassin is going to have a really good chance at it.
Explain that? How can they take out someone with god like power when they can't take out a weak emperor knock off?
But the point is Magneto can sense metal. Necrodermis is.metal. As soon as he realised his sidekick now had a metal arm he would be alerted. He would be able to stop bullets in midair. A Culexus would be the best to take him out as he would be surrounded with Psychics like Prof X.
For the purposes of this discussion the invasion has taken place just after Secret Invasion. So the professor (who for some reason couldn't detect Skrulls and also didn't bother to warn anyone else) and Magneto are still in action. I'm not sure about Jean though.
@Deadshot: It's been established that he can exert control of non-magnetic metals, such as gold, but can he sense them? If so then what is his ability to 'sense' non-magnetic materials restricted to?
The Crusader wrote:But of corse, this is all academic if the films are canon.
Prof. X : KIA
Magneto : now just a person.
Cyclops : KIA
Jean Granger : KIA
Jean and Cyclops yes. Charles, if you watch after the credits of Xmen 3, transfers his conciousness to a comatose man with no conciousness. Magneto, right before the credits, can be seen shifting a metal chess piece, ever so slightly, without touching it, leading to believe that the "cure" is only temporary.
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Hazardous Harry wrote:For the purposes of this discussion the invasion has taken place just after Secret Invasion. So the professor (who for some reason couldn't detect Skrulls and also didn't bother to warn anyone else) and Magneto are still in action. I'm not sure about Jean though.
@Deadshot: It's been established that he can exert control of non-magnetic metals, such as gold, but can he sense them? If so then what is his ability to 'sense' non-magnetic materials restricted to?
Yes he can sense them. Again, in Xmen 3, Wolverine tries to sneak into the Brotherhood camp but Magneto detects him, and I quote, "would.know the scent of your adamantium anywhere." I believe it is.only.metal he can control.
Hazardous Harry wrote:The Callidus could be literally anyone. His daughter, his son. Hell, even his grandchild. Magneto is going to let his guard down sooner or later, even if it's only for any instant. Callidus Assassins have killed targets that would considered far more secure, and far more paranoid, than Magneto.
Say the Callidus succeeds. After everything it gets around to finally get at Magneto. Guess what, that took 6 months. He took care of the fleet in minutes, months ago.
That's if they recognize him fast enough as a threat, from as far out as Jupiter.
That's if they deploy a ship, made of metal, traveling in real space, before he obliterates the fleet.
That's if it makes it to Earth intact.
Then it lands, get through all his defences, and assassinates him. Good job, the invasion ended half a year ago. Now it's in the middle of one of the most powerful organizations on the planet (X-Men), you're dead, and that's the last of the Invasion Force.
We're all going up against a brick wall. Harry is gonna keep slinging crap until everyone agrees with him. No matter how wrong some people are, they refuse to admit it. We have seven pages of people saying why Marvel would win, he focuses on one character and proceeds to say what can be boiled down to "nuh uh guys.". Harry, we bow to your ability to rail against a universe you don't understand.
The Imperium has literally tens of thousands of worlds to draw resources from.
This is a good thing, as they will need them if they every wanted to defeat Marvel Heroes in a war of attrition.
I would not expect that to happen though.
Franklin Richards would just create an alternate universe then send the IoM and the rest of the 40k races into it. He might even start a miniature wargame based upon it afterwords.
timetowaste85 wrote:We're all going up against a brick wall. Harry is gonna keep slinging crap until everyone agrees with him. No matter how wrong some people are, they refuse to admit it. We have seven pages of people saying why Marvel would win, he focuses on one character and proceeds to say what can be boiled down to "nuh uh guys.". Harry, we bow to your ability to rail against a universe you don't understand.
Yeah this has been the case for the last 4 pages anyhow.
I realize that this is not exactly the answer the OP was looking for, however, after reading a ton of marvel x overs, I'm pretty sure it would go down something like this:
The IOM attacks and a there is a huge glorious battle scene. Lots of people die, solders from most of earths military forces, lots of guardsmen and asartes, and maybe some very minor heroes and villains along with expendable IOM minor players, pretty much anyone low on plot armor. Everything is at a stalemate when the real villains show up, the forces of Chaos and Apocalypse, Magneto, Dr Doom, all the big baddies. Who have secretly been planning the invasion for years in order to weaken both sides in order to finally destroy them for their own personal reasons. Apoc. with the evolution thing, Magneto with the anti human thing and so on and so on.
The MU and the IOM suddenly realize that they've been had and decide to work together to fight this new threat. Because of their weakened state, the forces of evil are starting to prevail and everyone is doomed.
Suddenly Cable shows up with the Eldar. They condescendingly explain to everyone that they are all idiots and should have seen this coming. The only hope is for an elite force made up of heroes from both sides to travel back in time with Cable in order to prevent the whole screw up from ever happening in the first place. The remaining forces need to keep the defensive struggle up long enough to buy enough time for our heroes to complete their mission.
Everyone hops in Cables fancy time machine and, wouldn't you know it, Tzeentch was prepared for this and also sent some hard hitters back in time to stop our heroes. I'm thinking some pretty amazing fights between Abbadon and Wolverine, Deadpool and Kharn would be fun. In any case, back in normal time, everything is not going as planned. The forces of evil are crushing the resistance and it is obvious that they are not going to be able to hold out long enough for the guys to get the job done in the past.
Suddenly Magneto has a change of heart when he realizes just how powerful chaos is and how it will eventually corrupt even the mutants into slaves to the dark gods. This is probably due to the fact that he took his helmet off for a moment and Xavier, using cerebro was able to give his old friend a psycic vision of the future if the bad guys win. He does his usual switch sides thing and starts to shred the bad guys from within.
Meanwhile back in the past; mission accomplished. Disaster is averted, however, this has started a rift in the natural order of things and something horrible is eating time itself. Cable decides to send everyone back to the future and sacrifice himself in order to plug the hole and save everything. This would have a really long complicated scientific explanation that Reed Richards would have a page dedicated to explaining. Doesn't matter really, what matters is that Cable sends everyone back with him giving up his life (don't worry he'll be back) to save the day.
The bad guys are sent back to the warp and the good guys win. The very last page is Apocalypse shown being possessed by a daemon and vowing revenge as Daemonic En Shabba Nur!
King Pariah wrote:Okay, let's drop Magneto, I can only imagine the destruction that would be wrought by Sentry and the Hulk alone.
Yeah it does not matter if you drop mags, MU has more powerful folks anyhow. There is simply zero chance of the IoM fleet winning a fight for 616 earth.
Magneto is one of Marvel Universe's heavy hitters, but not the only one.
Nate Grey for example is Cable's duplicate from the Age of Apocalypse. Like Cable his telepathic and telekinetic powers are off the charts, unlike Cable he doesn't expend most of his power keeping the techno-organic virus from consuming his body.
Wonderman, as Hollywood in the Galactic Guardians, destroyed an invading fleet of aliens by himself.
Khornesnake wrote:I realize that this is not exactly the answer the OP was looking for, however, after reading a ton of marvel x overs, I'm pretty sure it would go down something like this:
The IOM attacks and a there is a huge glorious battle scene. Lots of people die, solders from most of earths military forces, lots of guardsmen and asartes, and maybe some very minor heroes and villains along with expendable IOM minor players, pretty much anyone low on plot armor. Everything is at a stalemate when the real villains show up, the forces of Chaos and Apocalypse, Magneto, Dr Doom, all the big baddies. Who have secretly been planning the invasion for years in order to weaken both sides in order to finally destroy them for their own personal reasons. Apoc. with the evolution thing, Magneto with the anti human thing and so on and so on.
The MU and the IOM suddenly realize that they've been had and decide to work together to fight this new threat. Because of their weakened state, the forces of evil are starting to prevail and everyone is doomed.
Suddenly Cable shows up with the Eldar. They condescendingly explain to everyone that they are all idiots and should have seen this coming. The only hope is for an elite force made up of heroes from both sides to travel back in time with Cable in order to prevent the whole screw up from ever happening in the first place. The remaining forces need to keep the defensive struggle up long enough to buy enough time for our heroes to complete their mission.
Everyone hops in Cables fancy time machine and, wouldn't you know it, Tzeentch was prepared for this and also sent some hard hitters back in time to stop our heroes. I'm thinking some pretty amazing fights between Abbadon and Wolverine, Deadpool and Kharn would be fun. In any case, back in normal time, everything is not going as planned. The forces of evil are crushing the resistance and it is obvious that they are not going to be able to hold out long enough for the guys to get the job done in the past.
Suddenly Magneto has a change of heart when he realizes just how powerful chaos is and how it will eventually corrupt even the mutants into slaves to the dark gods. This is probably due to the fact that he took his helmet off for a moment and Xavier, using cerebro was able to give his old friend a psycic vision of the future if the bad guys win. He does his usual switch sides thing and starts to shred the bad guys from within.
Meanwhile back in the past; mission accomplished. Disaster is averted, however, this has started a rift in the natural order of things and something horrible is eating time itself. Cable decides to send everyone back to the future and sacrifice himself in order to plug the hole and save everything. This would have a really long complicated scientific explanation that Reed Richards would have a page dedicated to explaining. Doesn't matter really, what matters is that Cable sends everyone back with him giving up his life (don't worry he'll be back) to save the day.
The bad guys are sent back to the warp and the good guys win. The very last page is Apocalypse shown being possessed by a daemon and vowing revenge as Daemonic En Shabba Nur!
The end.
Or is it??!??!?!?
And I would buy every issue
Ok, this sounds pretty cool. Needs more grimdark though. And dakka.
Hazardous Harry wrote:The Callidus could be literally anyone. His daughter, his son. Hell, even his grandchild. Magneto is going to let his guard down sooner or later, even if it's only for any instant. Callidus Assassins have killed targets that would considered far more secure, and far more paranoid, than Magneto.
Say the Callidus succeeds. After everything it gets around to finally get at Magneto. Guess what, that took 6 months. He took care of the fleet in minutes, months ago.
That's if they recognize him fast enough as a threat, from as far out as Jupiter.
That's if they deploy a ship, made of metal, traveling in real space, before he obliterates the fleet.
That's if it makes it to Earth intact.
Officio Operatives act completely outside the organisational structure of the Imperium. While an invasion force might take months or years to muster, let alone arrive, the Assassin's are not bogged by the Administratum's inefficiency. It's likely that, if they knew the kind of threat some of the ME characters posed, they would be deployed far before the invasion force. And I don't know if Magneto would be able to detect ships using highly advanced stealth fields, especially if he wasn't keeping an eye on him.
Then it lands, get through all his defences, and assassinates him. Good job, the invasion ended half a year ago. Now it's in the middle of one of the most powerful organizations on the planet (X-Men), you're dead, and that's the last of the Invasion Force.
That's just one guy.
Marvel still wins.
Good point. But why would Magneto destroy the fleet the moment it entered the Solar System? He hasn't really done that for any other alien invasion of any sort.
timetowaste85 wrote:We're all going up against a brick wall. Harry is gonna keep slinging crap until everyone agrees with him. No matter how wrong some people are, they refuse to admit it. We have seven pages of people saying why Marvel would win, he focuses on one character and proceeds to say what can be boiled down to "nuh uh guys.". Harry, we bow to your ability to rail against a universe you don't understand.
Actually, I'm trying to have a discussion. You're the one slinging crap here. Other posters have brought tangible arguments to the table, while you've reduced yourself to attacking the posters themselves. Congratulations.
Orblivion wrote:It wouldn't really be an "alien" invasion, and Magneto hates humans.
Magneto hates humans more than aliens? And if he's so against them, wouldn't he be likely to let the two forces duke it out, rather than intervene?
As for the Marvel Heroes, while they seem more than willing to kill xenos invaders, would they really be happy with slaughtering millions of fellow humans?
Hazardous Harry wrote:As for the Marvel Heroes, while they seem more than willing to kill xenos invaders, would they really be happy with slaughtering millions of fellow humans?
If there was no other choice, then they would have to try and capture as many as they can, otherwise there will be blood.
The Avengers, The X-Men, Silver Surfer, The Punisher, all of S.H.I.E.L.D.. Carnage, Spider-Man, The Hulk (all incarnations og them including She-Hulk), Deadpool, Elektra, DareDevil, The Fantastic 4, Firestar, Ghost Rider, Etc...
That is a lot of firepower.
There is nothing the IoM can do that all of these superheros would not be able to thwart.
Save your breath man. He has already decided that anyone in the MU is second string in power to the God emperor and the IoM can always out do what ever they can do as the Mu is weaker.
Orblivion wrote:It wouldn't really be an "alien" invasion, and Magneto hates humans.
Magneto hates humans more than aliens? And if he's so against them, wouldn't he be likely to let the two forces duke it out, rather than intervene?
As for the Marvel Heroes, while they seem more than willing to kill xenos invaders, would they really be happy with slaughtering millions of fellow humans?
If we want to start getting into the mindsets/motives of each character/faction then the IoM is at an even greater disadvantage. The Imperial Guard, who will obviously make up the bulk of the ground troops, will be surrendering and/or defecting in waves after seeing beings like Hulk, Thor, and Magneto in action.
To answer your question though, no he would not let them duke it out. Once Magneto realized that the massive, heavily armed force he was observing was comprised of humans he would annihilate it without a second thought.
Hazardous Harry wrote:The Callidus could be literally anyone. His daughter, his son. Hell, even his grandchild. Magneto is going to let his guard down sooner or later, even if it's only for any instant. Callidus Assassins have killed targets that would considered far more secure, and far more paranoid, than Magneto.
Say the Callidus succeeds. After everything it gets around to finally get at Magneto. Guess what, that took 6 months. He took care of the fleet in minutes, months ago.
That's if they recognize him fast enough as a threat, from as far out as Jupiter.
That's if they deploy a ship, made of metal, traveling in real space, before he obliterates the fleet.
That's if it makes it to Earth intact.
Officio Operatives act completely outside the organisational structure of the Imperium. While an invasion force might take months or years to muster, let alone arrive, the Assassin's are not bogged by the Administratum's inefficiency. It's likely that, if they knew the kind of threat some of the ME characters posed, they would be deployed far before the invasion force. And I don't know if Magneto would be able to detect ships using highly advanced stealth fields, especially if he wasn't keeping an eye on him.
Then it lands, get through all his defences, and assassinates him. Good job, the invasion ended half a year ago. Now it's in the middle of one of the most powerful organizations on the planet (X-Men), you're dead, and that's the last of the Invasion Force.
That's just one guy.
Marvel still wins.
Good point. But why would Magneto destroy the fleet the moment it entered the Solar System? He hasn't really done that for any other alien invasion of any sort.
timetowaste85 wrote:We're all going up against a brick wall. Harry is gonna keep slinging crap until everyone agrees with him. No matter how wrong some people are, they refuse to admit it. We have seven pages of people saying why Marvel would win, he focuses on one character and proceeds to say what can be boiled down to "nuh uh guys.". Harry, we bow to your ability to rail against a universe you don't understand.
Actually, I'm trying to have a discussion. You're the one slinging crap here. Other posters have brought tangible arguments to the table, while you've reduced yourself to attacking the posters themselves. Congratulations.
I brought up points earlier, refuting your evidence and I believe you started the obnoxious comments-I pointed you to the Marvel website, and you made the snide remark of how difficult it must have been for me to give you the actual page for Magneto. At that point, your attitude just annoyed me-I had work to do, and still took the time to point you in the right direction. And I gave plenty of examples earlier, and helped refute your ignorant responses, but I've grown sick of bothering. You have your head in the sand, and can't admit that you're wrong about something. I'm not the only one who sees it, and you're one of the two posters in here who actually believes the IoM would win. And try to think of examples OTHER than Magneto-even if you had him killed by an assassin, what do you plan to do about Thor, Ares, Sentry, Hulk and a host of others. Why don't we get the Inhumans involved and Black Bolt can just try having a conversation with the Imperium. I don't see it ending well for them. The point is, all you've done is say how Magneto would get thumped, and all of your examples of "getting close to him" are not likely, as nobody has the opportunity to do so anymore after Cortez's actions against him.
So yes, I am exasperated at your ignorance and your inability to admit you're wrong, and I don't feel bad at all about mentioning that arguing with you is like banging my head against a brick wall. Spend a couple decades learning about the Marvel Universe and get back to us when you finally realize you made an error. We'll wait.
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Hunterindarkness wrote:Save your breath man. He has already decided that anyone in the MU is second string in power to the God emperor and the IoM can always out do what ever they can do as the Mu is weaker.
I notice Harry isn't mentioning you attacking him, even though you and I are on the right side of the argument and have both gotten annoyed with him Don't worry, he'll start soon, I'm sure.
I guess as I flat out said after his "The God -emperor is more powerful then Magneto" comment I would no longer respond to him as he was willfully being ignorant.
I brought up points earlier, refuting your evidence and I believe you started the obnoxious comments-I pointed you to the Marvel website, and you made the snide remark of how difficult it must have been for me to give you the actual page for Magneto. At that point, your attitude just annoyed me-I had work to do, and still took the time to point you in the right direction. And I gave plenty of examples earlier, and helped refute your ignorant responses, but I've grown sick of bothering. You have your head in the sand, and can't admit that you're wrong about something. I'm not the only one who sees it, and you're one of the two posters in here who actually believes the IoM would win. And try to think of examples OTHER than Magneto-even if you had him killed by an assassin, what do you plan to do about Thor, Ares, Sentry, Hulk and a host of others. Why don't we get the Inhumans involved and Black Bolt can just try having a conversation with the Imperium. I don't see it ending well for them. The point is, all you've done is say how Magneto would get thumped, and all of your examples of "getting close to him" are not likely, as nobody has the opportunity to do so anymore after Cortez's actions against him.
So yes, I am exasperated at your ignorance and your inability to admit you're wrong, and I don't feel bad at all about mentioning that arguing with you is like banging my head against a brick wall. Spend a couple decades learning about the Marvel Universe and get back to us when you finally realize you made an error. We'll wait.
Thor: Pose as a close friend or trusted companion, the problem with Thor is that (like with the Skrull) he may not even show up until the invasion is well and truly underway.
Ares: A little more difficult, given that he has no trusted friends or even allies that might get in a position to backstab him. Though I don't see why he'd be defending Marvel Earth in the first place, given that he's constantly trying to overthrow Olympus. Does Secret Invasion occur before he begins posing as a human?
Sentry: Fairly easy, if the C'tan phase sword can affect him. Like many of the other Avengers he has close companions that would be perfect for imitating.
Hulk: It's been shown Batman can defeat him with tear gas and a solid kick to the sternum. If that's canon then he's probably the least threatening on this list.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Save your breath man. He has already decided that anyone in the MU is second string in power to the God emperor and the IoM can always out do what ever they can do as the Mu is weaker.
I notice Harry isn't mentioning you attacking him, even though you and I are on the right side of the argument and have both gotten annoyed with him Don't worry, he'll start soon, I'm sure.
Hunterindarkness is frustrated, but he isn't resorting to personal attacks. I'm a little leery of him thinking that Magneto is above the level of the God-Emperor. That's not to say there are MU entities that wouldn't dwarf the Emperor, but Magneto is not among them. It hasn't even been demonstrated that Magneto would be proof against psyker attacks.
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Hunterindarkness wrote:I guess as I flat out said after his "The God -emperor is more powerful then Magneto" comment I would no longer respond to him as he was willfully being ignorant.
You've outright said you weren't going to bother responding to me, but you're complaining that I haven't addressed your points?
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Orblivion wrote:
If we want to start getting into the mindsets/motives of each character/faction then the IoM is at an even greater disadvantage. The Imperial Guard, who will obviously make up the bulk of the ground troops, will be surrendering and/or defecting in waves after seeing beings like Hulk, Thor, and Magneto in action.
That's true, though I guess it would depend on the regiment in question. And that's also assuming that the biggest hitters of Marvel Earth have not been taken out beforehand.
To answer your question though, no he would not let them duke it out. Once Magneto realized that the massive, heavily armed force he was observing was comprised of humans he would annihilate it without a second thought.
Why would he though? He hasn't destroyed an human space-faring ships before, and it might serve his purpose to see his rivals on Earth weakened by another invasion. After all, Magneto would be smart enough to see both the opportunity and the threat of this new force.
Okay, there's a really simple explanation for why these two universes Just Don't Work Together.
40K and MU were created for completely different literary purposes. One is the backdrop for a tactical wargame, the other is a fantasy world for teenage boys with an ever-increasing amount of ridiculousness.
In 40K, everything has an explanation. Technology has evolved over thousands of years, the Warp is an alternate reality, the Chaos Gods are formed from the unconscious base urges of all intelligent beings, etc. Any given element can be explained in terms of the universe around it. Coincidentally, anything with a Deus Ex level of power (the Emperor, Chaos Gods, C'Tan) is dead or cannot directly affect the physical world. This is no accident. For a wargame to be fun, everyone needs to be able to fight and kill each other, and there are no absolutes - adamantium is tough but not impenetrable, the Primarchs are mighty but not unkillable, Greater Daemons can be banished. The people arguing in favor of the 40K universe here, if they aren't trolling, are probably arguing from this mentality - the Marvel characters aren't invincible, they have weaknesses, and the IoM can find them.
In MU, none of that works. Why? Because MU doesn't need to explain itself - it's a comic book world where the only way to sell the next issue is to have something happen that is more OTT than the last one. Where 40K specifically avoids Deux Ex characters, Marvel embraces them. Each villain is progressively more Deux Ex than the last one, because that's the only way the universe doesn't stagnate into a pile of eternally happy perfectly safe citizens. What Deux Ex means here, is having the I Win button, and Marvel characters never need to explain themselves. Why do Magneto's powers have unlimited range and scope? Because they can. How many lance strikes could the Hulk eat before he's toast? Doesn't matter, he's Grade A Invincible. Why does Thor, a demigod who can destroy a fleet of ships by moving through them at the speed of light, continue to smack people with his hammer? Because it looks cool. Everything in the 40K universe dies if you throw enough firepower at it. In MU, it doesn't matter how much firepower you use, it only matters whether your level of unstoppability is higher than his level of invincibility. They have flippin' levels of indestructability, that can only be breached by higher levels of unstoppability! Nothing in 40K is unstoppable or indestructible, except for beings (Chaos Gods, Gork and Mork) that are very specifically unable to actually do anything themselves, ever.
So yes, Marvel wins. That's the whole point, MU is constantly making larger buttons containing more "I Win" in them, while 40K specifically refrains from just that. Well, mostly. It's no wonder that much of the "Magneto is killable" argument revolves around the C'Tan phase sword - that's one of the few Marvel-esque elements in the 40K universe, which is why it could conceivably work. A sword that can cut through anything because it phases out of existence? Sounds right up Marvel's alley. Fortunately for 40K, there is far too little of this type of stuff, so Marvel can continue to wipe the floor with the IoM in hypothetical debates and I can continue to enjoy a balanced game of 40K.
Unfortunately it seems you're right. The only thing 40k really has banking for them is the Callidus Assassin. I guess if the Imperium actually made a dedicated effort into sending as essentially every Callidus Assassin's they had on hand they might manage to knock off the heavy hitters and pave the way for a full on invasion. But as the OP has said this is a typical Imperium invasion.
I do think a 'second' Secret Invasion involving Inquisitors and Callidus Assassins would make for a pretty sweet comic though.
Unless the Emperor himself and all his Primarchs are at the fore, Imperium stands no chance. Even then, their best chance at victory would be to show up and immediately virus bomb the planet.
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Roboute wrote:40K and MU were created for completely different literary purposes. One is the backdrop for a tactical wargame, the other is a fantasy world for teenage boys with an ever-increasing amount of ridiculousness.
Have you read Ward's fiction? Both settings are fantasy worlds for teenage boys with an ever-increasing amount of ridiculousness.
Hazardous Harry wrote:
Personally, I can only see two possible real and actual threats to the forces of the Imperium.
Magneto: Depending on exactly how strong he is and at what range his powers are effective, he could actually threaten the Imperial Navy. It has to be kept in mind that Imperial Cruisers are essentially gigantic cities floating in space. For Magneto to threaten one he would have to be capable of destroying a city that was relatively the size of New York, while he was on the moon (and probably further as IN ships prefer to stay out of a planet's orbital well). It is safe to say that until Magneto is neautralized by either obliterating his current location or assasination there is no possibility of the Imperium effecting a successful landing.
Xavier: A little bit more straightforward. I reckon that, given proper warning, the Imperium to put together a Kabal of psykers strong enough to threaten him, or at least prevent him from targetting other Imperial forces. The preffered method would still be assasination.
Other than these two figures, I can't think of any inhabitants of Marvel Earth that would seriously impede the Imperium's invasion. Especially since they would have total Naval superiority.
What about the Phoenix Force? Or Cyclops? Gambit could blow up anything the Imperium could throw at him by touching it. Kitty Pride would be invulnerable to anything they could fire at her and trap Imperial tanks underground, Nightcrawler could teleport squads of anything he wanted directly to Imperial command posts and skip the messy 'murder the Space Marines' stage. Xavier's son could possess person after person in the Imperial force and make them commit suicide. Storm would make landing Imperial troops impossible short of teleportation.
Omegus wrote:Have you read Ward's fiction? Both settings are fantasy worlds for teenage boys with an ever-increasing amount of ridiculousness.
If they gave Ward sole command of all fluff writing for 6e, and he unleashed the full might of his imagination, then the Imperium might stand a chance. Draigo's backstory reads more like a comic book than a 40K piece to me anyways.
Other than these two figures, I can't think of any inhabitants of Marvel Earth that would seriously impede the Imperium's invasion. Especially since they would have total Naval superiority.
What about the Phoenix Force? Or Cyclops? Gambit could blow up anything the Imperium could throw at him by touching it. Kitty Pride would be invulnerable to anything they could fire at her and trap Imperial tanks underground, Nightcrawler could teleport squads of anything he wanted directly to Imperial command posts and skip the messy 'murder the Space Marines' stage. Xavier's son could possess person after person in the Imperial force and make them commit suicide. Storm would make landing Imperial troops impossible short of teleportation.
Impressive powers, but really not even coming close to the OTT type of power Magneto wields. The X-men could decimate any Imperial forces on the ground, but Magneto is capable of tearing apart the entire invasion force itself in orbit.
Other than these two figures, I can't think of any inhabitants of Marvel Earth that would seriously impede the Imperium's invasion. Especially since they would have total Naval superiority.
What about the Phoenix Force? Or Cyclops? Gambit could blow up anything the Imperium could throw at him by touching it. Kitty Pride would be invulnerable to anything they could fire at her and trap Imperial tanks underground, Nightcrawler could teleport squads of anything he wanted directly to Imperial command posts and skip the messy 'murder the Space Marines' stage. Xavier's son could possess person after person in the Imperial force and make them commit suicide. Storm would make landing Imperial troops impossible short of teleportation.
Impressive powers, but really not even coming close to the OTT type of power Magneto wields. The X-men could decimate any Imperial forces on the ground, but Magneto is capable of tearing apart the entire invasion force itself in orbit.
Phoenix is even more OTT than Magneto. and if we want the really big guns... (okay so I know it's not a mutant human, but for kicks and giggles) The Beyonder.
The issue is Harry has in his head that mags is top tier of Earth power. Polaris can match him in magnetic ability for the most part. Black bolt is even stronger then Mags and could render the whole fleet to scrap.
Blackbolt emits sound so intense that he can literally level a mountain by saying "hello." Massive sound vibrations, really. He also lives on the moon at this point, so he'd be the first line of defense against the invaders, and they probably wouldn't see him (the home of the Inhumans, Blackbolt's people, is invisible to scanners-they have very advanced tech). He'd shatter their vehicles before they even got to Earth.
No sound shock waves work just Fine in MU while in space. He lives on the moon as that is where his people the InHumans live. He does not speak as a whisper of Hello could indeed shatter mountains. His normal speaking voice could break the moon.
And he is not the only inhuman with powers that rival mags.
Other than these two figures, I can't think of any inhabitants of Marvel Earth that would seriously impede the Imperium's invasion. Especially since they would have total Naval superiority.
What about the Phoenix Force? Or Cyclops? Gambit could blow up anything the Imperium could throw at him by touching it. Kitty Pride would be invulnerable to anything they could fire at her and trap Imperial tanks underground, Nightcrawler could teleport squads of anything he wanted directly to Imperial command posts and skip the messy 'murder the Space Marines' stage. Xavier's son could possess person after person in the Imperial force and make them commit suicide. Storm would make landing Imperial troops impossible short of teleportation.
Impressive powers, but really not even coming close to the OTT type of power Magneto wields. The X-men could decimate any Imperial forces on the ground, but Magneto is capable of tearing apart the entire invasion force itself in orbit.
Not an attack (so please don't take it as such, given our previous back-and-forth), but are you finally on our side that Marvel would win? Your statement here seems to suggest your conversion. And actually Phoenix is far more powerful than Magneto. She eats stars, can incinerate entire planets with a thought, and the invading force would be destroyed before Magneto could even put his helmet on. However, she was dead during the time of Secret Invasion, I believe (Jean dying happens so regularly, nobody keeps track anymore), so she wouldn't be in this fight.
And to whoever Durza quoted about "other than these two figures"-we've only scratched the surface of what Marvel characters could do-for simplicity, and for the fact that many on here probably aren't as familiar with Marvel characters as some of us, we've only used the big names so far. There are many, many more. I was actually surprised to see Nate Grey mentioned, but yes he came back shortly after Secret Invasion (the following story arc, actually). As such, he's an acceptable protagonist in this invasion.
And to the guy who was using the movies as canon....hahaha, no. The movies have no value-they get classified as a universe of their own. If you look on the Marvel website, you will find the 616 (standard universe), ultimate, 2099, 1644, Age of Apocalypse, the movie universe and others (can't remember the prohibition era name). Deaths in the movies are non-canon and hold no value in this conversation, as the 616 universe was specified early on.
I did not know Nate was active during that time. If so..yeah game over for the ioM. They have nothing that could slow him down. He might save the psykers though, but if they try and attack him....oh well.
Also AoA earth was 295 And Nate is the same class of mutant as Franklin Richards. Omega class or something like that, been a long time.
Oh, I know she was mentioned earlier, but the Scarlett Witch would kick the Imperium's ass any day of the week. She'd just think them out of existence.
I think the Op disallowed magic that could auto win. A pity really 616 earth has a dammed lot of it. 40k's magic uses do not want any of MU's spell slingers.
Hunterindarkness wrote:I think the Op disallowed magic that could auto win. A pity really 616 earth has a dammed lot of it. 40k's magic uses do not want any of MU's spell slingers.
Still she could do much to kill the fleet anyhow, even if shes not allowed one auto win spell. A few slightly less powerful ones will do.
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Lord Rogukiel wrote:The imperium has titans. And I don't if we take the rule that Hulk=primarch, then he can be killed.
I got 50 or a hundred or better MU guys who can one shot a titan. The Hulk would take all the Primaches at one time. They are not even close to his power level, Not by a very, very long shot.
timetowaste85 wrote:Blackbolt emits sound so intense that he can literally level a mountain by saying "hello." Massive sound vibrations, really. He also lives on the moon at this point, so he'd be the first line of defense against the invaders, and they probably wouldn't see him (the home of the Inhumans, Blackbolt's people, is invisible to scanners-they have very advanced tech). He'd shatter their vehicles before they even got to Earth.
Blackbolts power increases with the volume of his voice, so while it's true that even blackbolts whisper can destroy mountains.....hulk beat him down just to hear his SCREAMS.... Because BB had been part of the plot that banished hulk into space....
Hulk stood firm as he took blackbolts full power, because hulks anger has no limits, and his strength grows with his anger. ( and apparently killing his wife and child pisses him off)
WW hulk is not the dumb ass that he originally was. WW hulk is a leader and a tactician, and he was completely in sync with Bruce banner even having the ability to transform between his 2 forms at will.
Can’t believe this hasn’t been pointed out yet, but.....
Marvel deals heavily in the multiverse, giving numerous examples of different types of marvel universes, universe 616 being the one in which the majority of the comics take place. In many of those universes the heroes and villains that make up the marvel universe 616 have been killed in an assortment of ways. The hulk, thor, wolverine, magneto, and etc; have all been killed in these alternate worlds using means well within the imperium’s capabilities. The marvel earth has been conquered and its heroes slain a hundred times over by an assortment of adversaries. Assuming the imperium takes the heroes seriously and uses the right methods I can easily see them taking the marvel earth.
Sources:
The “What if?” series - This is basically a world just slightly off Earth 616 showing what would happen if just one event played out differently.
The “Exiles” series - A multiverse hopping superhero team.
The numerous times a comic series dealt with time travel visiting a future in which the heroes were wiped out.
The numerous times a comic series dealt with visiting different universes in the multiverse.
The “End” one shots in many series
The marvel earth 616 might be a mighty hard nut for the imperium to crack but there are a hundreds of examples of close parallels of that nut being cracked using multiverse examples.
Hunterindarkness wrote:Grunt13, The OP{ stated Vanilla MU. That is Earth 616 not a different one
I thought I made it clear in my above post that the Earth 616 universe was the universe being addressed.
Grunt13 wrote:The marvel earth 616 might be a mighty hard nut for the imperium to crack but there are a hundreds of examples of close parallels of that nut being cracked
They however are not attacking another earth. As it stands the IoM invasion fleet is out gunned and out classed. Unlike the alt earths, they are not playing with the same deck of cards.
Not an attack (so please don't take it as such, given our previous back-and-forth), but are you finally on our side that Marvel would win? Your statement here seems to suggest your conversion.
I'm at the point where I believe a standard Imperial invasion force would be crushed instantly. The only thing the Imperium has going for it is an extensive Callidus infiltration, much like Secret Invasion, but probably replacing human loved-ones etc instead. Since the OP has said that we can't use resources that wouldn't normally be available, so we could only get our hands on one or two for an invasion like this, and that's probably not enough unless they were given years to work with and very lucky.
Could Spidey's spider-sense detect a perfect imposter? I'm not sure how it worked during Secret Invasion, and it should be kept in mind that the Callidus are probably better at this than the Skrull. True, they can't replicate superpowers, but they would be proof against the counter-measures that SWORD has developed.
EDIT: And as for our back-and-forth, things tend to sometimes get heated especially in 'X vs Y' conversations.
Not an attack (so please don't take it as such, given our previous back-and-forth), but are you finally on our side that Marvel would win? Your statement here seems to suggest your conversion.
I'm at the point where I believe a standard Imperial invasion force would be crushed instantly. The only thing the Imperium has going for it is an extensive Callidus infiltration, much like Secret Invasion, but probably replacing human loved-ones etc instead. Since the OP has said that we can't use resources that wouldn't normally be available, so we could only get our hands on one or two for an invasion like this, and that's probably not enough unless they were given years to work with and very lucky.
Could Spidey's spider-sense detect a perfect imposter? I'm not sure how it worked during Secret Invasion, and it should be kept in mind that the Callidus are probably better at this than the Skrull. True, they can't replicate superpowers, but they would be proof against the counter-measures that SWORD has developed.
EDIT: And as for our back-and-forth, things tend to sometimes get heated especially in 'X vs Y' conversations.
To answer your question about Spidey's spider-sense, yes and no. He'll recognize danger, but not necessarily WHO is setting it off. Spidey is actually out of his league in this fight-if "Mary Jane" showed up and his senses went off, he'd be looking at the sky-not at the dagger in his back.
And for the Marvel Zombies stuff...yeah, they went zombie and zombified the heroes and ate the regular people. Then they ate the Silver Surfer, gained his power, killed and ate Galactus and gained his power. Do you REALLY want Galactified zombies running around? Thought not.
And as for the many universes where the guys die...I'm 95% sure that the Hulk hasn't died in ANY of them. The only way he can die is old age (maybe). I wouldn't place money on that though.
Hunterindarkness wrote:They however are not attacking another earth. As it stands the IoM invasion fleet is out gunned and out classed. Unlike the alt earths, they are not playing with the same deck of cards.
Yeah, but you are ignoring that for many of these worlds they are exactly the same as Earth 616 except for a minor deviation that often takes place within the story arc itself - many are future gone wrong versions that split from 616 itself. And for those that don’t match up exactly to 616 they still feature many of the same heroes and defenses.
Many of the big guns that were sited in this thread were neutralized in these alternate worlds. It's flawed logic to say that the imperium would not be able to kill the hulk while ignoring the number of times alternate hulks were killed. Same with magneto, thor, wolverine, and the sum total of the inhumans.
Operating on the notion that the imperium is playing it reasonably intelligent. It drops in spies who research the world before taking any action, IIRC this is common procedure in dealing with discovered human worlds. The super humans are researched with a tremendous amount of useful information gained via simple internet searches. In a situation where the imperium knows what its getting itself into, I believe they are favored to win. If they just jump onto the planet an blast away they are going to lose, the first battle anyway.
Many of marvel's big guns can be taken out with controlled use of the life-eater virus and I don’t think anyone on earth 616 is laughing off a lascannon hit to the face. Votex and stasis weapons would also work against anyone that might be too tough to handle in a straight up firefight. Also, magneto is being talked up a bunch in a manner that really doesn’t fit with his previous performances. He once used his power against colossus to keep the x-man pinned to the floor, but the metal man was able to fight against magneto’s magnetic powers, rise to his feet and deck him out. I don’t think magneto will be able to pull apart a billion ton, skyscraper-size battleship from a 1000 miles away, if he can’t keep a man made of metal on the ground. Going by wikipedia the heaviest thing he ever lifted was a 30,000 ton nuclear submarine. An assassin’s field breaker round is likely all that is needed to take him out, Hawkeye did it in the marvel zombie storyline with an arrow.
To answer your question about Spidey's spider-sense, yes and no. He'll recognize danger, but not necessarily WHO is setting it off. Spidey is actually out of his league in this fight-if "Mary Jane" showed up and his senses went off, he'd be looking at the sky-not at the dagger in his back.
Come on guys, this would make a really awesome comic.
And for the Marvel Zombies stuff...yeah, they went zombie and zombified the heroes and ate the regular people. Then they ate the Silver Surfer, gained his power, killed and ate Galactus and gained his power. Do you REALLY want Galactified zombies running around? Thought not.
I never mentioned zombies. That would be Omegus. But I doubt that a Nurgle plauge would affect them the same way the MU virus did.
And as for the many universes where the guys die...I'm 95% sure that the Hulk hasn't died in ANY of them. The only way he can die is old age (maybe). I wouldn't place money on that though.
I know you didn't post the zombie thing Harry, I was just too lazy to look back and see who did-your portion was only the Spider-Man stuff. And nobody has ever been able to decapitate Hulk-so we don't know if he can recover from it. But he does regenerate VERY quickly. Faster than Wolverine. And Wolverine could recover from decapitation (he has recovered from being incinerated by Nitro, after all) but I'm sure he'd need his head placed on his body to re-knit as he wouldn't grow a new one. Precedence for this is Wolvie cutting off Deadpool's head and telling someone to re-attach it and he won't die. Might lose a few brain cells at worst.
Alternate earths IIRC:
Punisher killed the hulk in two separate stories, wolverine killed the hulk in two separate stories, bruce banner killed a hulk general russ, hulk killed a future version of himself (earth 616) Another non-banner hulk was killed by nick fury - just off the top of my head.
Lucky he's not Marvel technically.
Thor is actually quite killable, according to Avengers where a whee drop from a flying Aircraft Character almost kills him.
Whoops