i was reading through the blood angel codex to pick what powers i was gonna give my librarian and noticed that sangquine sword doesnt say when it ends. so if i cast it once does it last all game

It lasts 1 turn of combat. Nice try.

The power is used at the start of the cc in either turn, that is when it is applied so beyond that it has no effect. Imagine it as super furious charge.

really...there are other assault powers that have a duration in that codex.

for example unleash rage is used in the assault phase and lasts until end of turn. then there is might of heros that lasts for that assault phase. but sanguine sword just says your close combat attacks are made at str 10.

given that other powers give a duration and this one doesnt id have to say it lasts all game



NOTE: nevermind i found my answer...apparently my searchfu is weak

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395066.page#3295042

liturgies of blood wrote:It lasts 1 turn of combat. Nice try.

Citation needed.

It is cast at the start of either players assault phase, then it says CC attacks are made at Str 10.

No mention of duration.

Once a power is in effect it lasts as long the power specifies, in most cases (In the Blood Angel Book) they are either Instant (PSA's) or the last til the end of the current phase.

Sanguine sword does not specify when it ends, so RaW once cast it does not end.

But then are you forced to be using it every turn?

motyak wrote:But then are you forced to be using it every turn?

Why would you be forced to use it every turn?

Psychic Powers, once cast, last until they say they stop.

PSA's last until you resolve the shots, other powers last until they say as specified in the power.

Sanguine Sword does not have a listed duration, so once it is cast, it is useable until the rules say it goes away.

My bad, it is the only power on the page without duration.

wow, so it actually lasts for the rest of the game?

No, don't be daft. Sloppy writing isn't permission to pretend it does, either. What psychic power lasts all game once activated? None of them.

So long as you don't cast anything else or you have the ability to use two powers a turn then it appears so.

Feel free to play "it lasts all game" at your local gaming store, but no tournament is going to let that go (unless you run that, too). There isn't any rule that says "once a power is cast it is on until we're told it stops," but there is a rule that says "psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." Notice that the rules then explain how they do so, which involves taking a psychic check - each player turn that you choose to use a power. Notice also the lack of discussion of what happens if you have a power already running from a previous turn, anywhere. Unless a power specifically states that it differs from the basic rules, it follows them. Sanguine Sword does not state that it differs from the basic rules, so wishing that it somehow is turned on and lasts forever is just wishing.

Really? If I cast sanguin sword and I use it in my turn, i then use it in the opponents turn and again in my turn. How many powers have I used per player turn?

Specifics of psyker magic is in each of the codices as page 50 of the brb says, this one seems to have no limit of duration. Page 50 only tells you how a power should be used, not how long it can run for.
In the BA codex every other power on the page has a stated duration. It is folly to decide that because it doesn't have a limit is an oeversight and not intentional as none of us are the GW team. As there have been a few faqs and nothing has been done to clarify or to insert an eratta then we go with RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:

motyak wrote:But then are you forced to be using it every turn?

Why would you be forced to use it every turn?

Psychic Powers, once cast, last until they say they stop.

PSA's last until you resolve the shots, other powers last until they say as specified in the power.

Sanguine Sword does not have a listed duration, so once it is cast, it is useable until the rules say it goes away.

I meant you wouldn't be able to then use unleash rage in the next turn, unless sanguine sword stopped, because you can be only using one per turn. Right? (assuming not an epistolary)

Well by implication if you cast unleash rage then you have stopped using sanguine sword, unless you are an epistolary.

Ok cool. I'm not arguing the length thing, thats just amusing. Me and my group will keep playing it the one assault phase way.
The thing I was wondering about was whether or not it would be stopped by another power. Cheers lit.

No listed duration != infinite duration. There is no more support for the power lasting until the end of the game than there is for it lasting until the end of the turn.

liturgies of blood wrote:Well by implication if you cast unleash rage then you have stopped using sanguine sword, unless you are an epistolary.

Incorrect, if you are going with the ludicrous interpretation that Sanguine Sword has an infinite duration then you would not be able to use any other psychic powers (unless you are an epistolary) for the rest of the game because there are no rules allowing the use of a second power to then 'cancel' the first power.

So once you use Sanguine Sword, it would then be in effect for the rest of eternity, but that would also mean your Librarian is stuck using that power for the rest of eternity and cannot use another power unless he is Epistolary or is otherwise allowed to use more than one power per turn.

motyak wrote:I meant you wouldn't be able to then use unleash rage in the next turn, unless sanguine sword stopped, because you can be only using one per turn. Right? (assuming not an epistolary)

No, because once you use the Sanguine Sword, you are free to use your other power in the next player turn, while SS is still active.

This is because P.50 details how to use a Psychic Power: "To use a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test..."

If you do not have to pass the Psychic test then you are not using the Sanguine Sword power that turn, but its effects are still in play and you still benefit from the earlier use of SS.

So Sanguine Sword is used and its effect do not go away as they have no listed duration. Then in the next player turn, while still under the effects of Sanguine Sword you can use Unleashed Rage, because to use a psychic power...

Ghaz wrote:No listed duration != infinite duration. There is no more support for the power lasting until the end of the game than there is for it lasting until the end of the turn.

Except you cast it, and its effects are present when the Librarian is making CC attacks.

So anytime the librarian makes a close combat attack it is made at Str 10, as per the casting of Sanguine Sword.

Again, please quote the rule that states that no listed duration = infinite duration. You're making an assumption that has no basis in any printed rule.

Ghaz wrote:Again, please quote the rule that states that no listed duration = infinite duration. You're making an assumption that has no basis in any printed rule.

It must have infinite duration.

In the BA codex psychic powers have a listed duration as specified in the power.

PSA's last until you resolve the shots.

All SS says is: "The power is used at the start of either players Assault phase. The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

Compare this with Might of heroes which states "Gains [X] attacks in that assault phase"

See the difference.

Had they added "in that assault phase" to SS you would be correct, but it is not there, so your argument is invalid.

Once cast the power lasts until something says it stops.

Sanguine Sword never stops.

And we're back to why even talking about rules on the Internet is a bad idea.

DeathReaper makes up a "truth", whole cloth, ignores rational discussion, finds what he believes is a loophole that matches up with his entirely RAW unsupported position, and now we're in the Fox News "what is accurate" argument:
One person with a crazy position and other rational people pointing out that it isn't supported anywhere by the rules. But some percentage of people will go with the crazy position, because DeathReaper speaks with conviction and the rational people admit to the inadequacies of the RAW.

Play however you like in your FLGS, DeathReaper. Don't cry to me when you can't play that nonsense anywhere else.

jwolf wrote:And we're back to why even talking about rules on the Internet is a bad idea.

DeathReaper makes up a "truth", whole cloth, ignores rational discussion, finds what he believes is a loophole that matches up with his entirely RAW unsupported position, and now we're in the Fox News "what is accurate" argument:
One person with a crazy position and other rational people pointing out that it isn't supported anywhere by the rules. But some percentage of people will go with the crazy position, because DeathReaper speaks with conviction and the rational people admit to the inadequacies of the RAW.

Play however you like in your FLGS, DeathReaper. Don't cry to me when you can't play that nonsense anywhere else.

Did he say he plays like that?
Anywhere?

He's 100% correct that RAW says it doesn't end.
Obviously, it's intended to end. And obviously most people wouldn't even try to play it that way - I'd bet DR is one of those people.

YMDC discusses RAW unless you say you're not.

He is NOT 100% correct in saying the RAW says it doesn't end - The RAW simply never specifies when it ends (which is a far cry from specifying that it does not).

He IS 100% incorrect in saying that RAW says it continues until it says to stop.

So if he's going to argue a position that is not supported by RAW, what's the point unless he's trying to play it that way?

jwolf wrote:He's also 100% incorrect in saying that RAW says it continues until it says to stop.

So if he's going to argue a position that is not supported by RAW, what's the point unless he's trying to play it that way?

He's not wrong though - what rule is saying that psychic powers end?

The rules are permissive, not exclusionary. If there is no rule giving permission for the power to continue, it does no do so. And there is no such rule.

jwolf wrote:The rules are permissive, not exclusionary. If there is no rule giving permission for the power to continue, it does no do so. And there is no such rule.

The power has permission to work.
Going with your interpretation the power is instantaneous and does absolutely nothing.

The rules are permissive. Pychic powers are allowed be cast in the brb and you are limited to casting one per turn. The rules for each power are coverd in their respective codices. Where in the rules does it say a power lasts for one turn only?

By strict RAW, the power has no duration, which would make it last a time period of null, not forever - almost every other power has a duration specified (or is a PSA, which has it's own definition). Since I think we can agree that there would be no reason to include a power with no effect, the writers must have intended some duration. I'm willing to graciously have the power extend for the duration of the assault phase, but granting the power eternal operation based on Deathreaper's assertion that null = infinite isn't in any way reasonable.

I'll say again, there is no RAW support for null duration equals infinite duration. By RAW, Sanguine Sword has a duration of undefined or null, which is most commonly interpreted as zero (an empty set). As most people are rational enough to understand that the power should have some duration to be included, treating this as lasting for the current Assault phase is acceptable.

Related question: Might of Heroes says the Librarian (or other model in the same unit) gains "+d3 attacks in that Assault Phase." This also does not specify that the attacks go away at the end of that Assault Phase - would you argue that the recipient keeps those attacks for the rest of the game because there is no specified duration, only a specified time of receipt?



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liturgies of blood wrote:The rules are permissive. Pychic powers are allowed be cast in the brb and you are limited to casting one per turn. The rules for each power are coverd in their respective codices. Where in the rules does it say a power lasts for one turn only?

Right next to where it says that powers last forever unless cancelled.

Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

Might of heroes says "in that assault phase" that is duration right there. Time of receipt is duration, to get another d3 attacks you need another pschic test.

liturgies of blood wrote:Might of heroes says "in that assault phase" that is duration right there. Time of receipt is duration, to get another d3 attacks you need another pschic test.

Oddly, all the Grey Knight close combat powers that give bonuses specify a duration, not just "in that assault phase." Maybe the Blood Angels psychic powers are written with assumptions of rational readers? Or are they just poorly written? Only one of the three has an actually spelled out duration; the other two have implied durations at best.

The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.

jwolf wrote:By strict RAW, the power has no duration, which would make it last a time period of null, not forever - almost every other power has a duration specified (or is a PSA, which has it's own definition). Since I think we can agree that there would be no reason to include a power with no effect, the writers must have intended some duration. I'm willing to graciously have the power extend for the duration of the assault phase, but granting the power eternal operation based on Deathreaper's assertion that null = infinite isn't in any way reasonable.

I have permission to cast the power.
I cast the power.
I have permission to be STR10.
Where is the restriction of that permission? (ie a stated duration)

Related question: Might of Heroes says the Librarian (or other model in the same unit) gains "+d3 attacks in that Assault Phase." This also does not specify that the attacks go away at the end of that Assault Phase - would you argue that the recipient keeps those attacks for the rest of the game because there is no specified duration, only a specified time of receipt?

In the next assault phase, did you cast Might of Heroes in "that Assault Phase"?

Yonush wrote:The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.

#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states. (I hardly ever use Sanguine Sword anyway, I usually use Unleashed Rage with TH/SS Terminators.)

Which "The" are you referring to?

#2 Sanguine Sword says: "THE power is used at THE start of either players Assault phase. THE Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

None of those THE's denote a duration. You use it at the start of either players Assault phase. so it is in effect from when you cast it until... the end of the game, since you have used it you gain the benefits of it, until it is not being used.

DeathReaper wrote:
#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states.

Every time I see a rules discussion going mad with unreasonable arguments I see your name on it. Now you come and say you don't play like that so I seriously have no idea why you do this.

Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

Bacms wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states.

Every time I see a rules discussion going mad with unreasonable arguments I see your name on it. Now you come and say you don't play like that so I seriously have no idea why you do this.

Because this forum is for discussing how the rules are written. Not your interpretation of them.

Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

Wrong. PSAs are defined - you make the test, you follow the rules surrounding the PSA, you're done.

rigeld2 wrote:

Bacms wrote:

Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

Wrong. PSAs are defined - you make the test, you follow the rules surrounding the PSA, you're done.

I read the rules but still cannot find a duration for it. It does say you can only use one per turn but does not say it ends that turn. So according to your logic I could use next turn without casting it. I might be missing some part of the rules though.

Bacms wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states.

Every time I see a rules discussion going mad with unreasonable arguments I see your name on it. Now you come and say you don't play like that so I seriously have no idea why you do this.

That may be your perception, but RAW says what RAW says. (And i never use Sanguine Sword, I use Unleashed Rage 99.999% of the time.)

Bacms wrote:Anyway so according to half this thread I can now cast psychic shoot attacks once a game and use it every turn since they don't specify a duration. Cool

No you can not use PSA's because it has an effect that is practically instant.

You cast the PSA, then we look at what the PSA does.

It allows you to fire an Assault 1 weapon.

"Using a PSA counts as firing a ranged weapon" P.50

So we fire a ranged weapon, an the effect ends. This is because of the wording of P.50 Using a Psychic power is defined on P.50 as well, it details rolling the dice for a Psychic test. This is why PSA's are not cast once and last the whole game.

DeathReaper wrote:

Yonush wrote:The way I read it is it would only work during the phase the power is cast.

Part 1 of the power gives the when and by not giving any more information you have no permission to extend it.

Did you use the power at the begining of the assault phase - Then your cc attacks are made @ str 10

There doesn't need to be a duration. The word "The" in the rule forces you to use the power to gain the benifit in "the" assault phase not "any" assault phase.

FWIW death reaper has never played it like he is saying RAW it works.

#1 Yonush is correct, I do not play it how the RAW states. (I hardly ever use Sanguine Sword anyway, I usually use Unleashed Rage with TH/SS Terminators.)

Which "The" are you referring to?

#2 Sanguine Sword says: "THE power is used at THE start of either players Assault phase. THE Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

None of those THE's denote a duration. You use it at the start of either players Assault phase. so it is in effect from when you cast it until... the end of the game, since you have used it you gain the benefits of it, until it is not being used.

Except that you do need to have a duration to have any effect - if you don't believe me, ask your significant other. We both agree that the designer must have meant for it to have SOME duration, but you have no grounds in logic or RAW to support that <null> = infinite, which is the basis of your argument and completely invalid as RAW or (god forbid) logic.

jwolf wrote:
Except that you do need to have a duration to have any effect - if you don't believe me, ask your significant other. We both agree that the designer must have meant for it to have SOME duration, but you have no grounds in logic or RAW to support that <null> = infinite, which is the basis of your argument and completely invalid as RAW or (god forbid) logic.

No listed duration means once you cast it you can use it when listed.

Sanguine Sword, once cast, says you are allowed to use it in close combat.

Thus whenever you are making close combat attacks, you attack at Str 10. RAW fulfilled, Logic fulfilled.

As for the underlined, we do not know what the designers intentions are, as the roleplay does not say anything about a duration.

so I do not agree that we know what the designer "meant"

DeathReaper wrote:
So we fire a ranged weapon, an the effect ends. This is because of the wording of P.50 Using a Psychic power is defined on P.50 as well, it details rolling the dice for a Psychic test. This is why PSA's are not cast once and last the whole game.

Still not convinced you haven't show me a RAW saying it ends. What the rules are saying is that a PSA counts as firing a weapon which I can do every turn on my shooting phase. So if I cast it I can now fire an assault 1 weapon, does not say it goes away for next turn.

But anyway I don't really care.

rigeld2 wrote:

jwolf wrote:By strict RAW, the power has no duration, which would make it last a time period of null, not forever - almost every other power has a duration specified (or is a PSA, which has it's own definition). Since I think we can agree that there would be no reason to include a power with no effect, the writers must have intended some duration. I'm willing to graciously have the power extend for the duration of the assault phase, but granting the power eternal operation based on Deathreaper's assertion that null = infinite isn't in any way reasonable.

I have permission to cast the power.
I cast the power.
I have permission to be STR10.
Where is the restriction of that permission? (ie a stated duration)

Related question: Might of Heroes says the Librarian (or other model in the same unit) gains "+d3 attacks in that Assault Phase." This also does not specify that the attacks go away at the end of that Assault Phase - would you argue that the recipient keeps those attacks for the rest of the game because there is no specified duration, only a specified time of receipt?

In the next assault phase, did you cast Might of Heroes in "that Assault Phase"?

Regarding SS - there is equally no permission to have ANY duration as infinite duration. In the absence of a defined duration, the duration is not infinite but undefined. These are not synonyms, and the burden of having a duration rests on the subject intending to exist (in this case, SS).

Regarding Might if Heroes (purely reading RAW) - On my T1 Assault Phase, I cast Might of Heroes on my Librarian. He gains +d3 attacks in that Assault Phase. Not during that Assault Phase, or until the end of that Assault Phase, just in that Assault Phase. So we have a statement of WHEN, but not HOW LONG. So he gains +d3 Attacks on my T1 Assault Phase. In your T1 Assault Phase, he casts MoH again, and gains +d3 attacks. Now he has gained +d3 attacks in two different Assault Phases, for a total of +2d3. Nothing tells us the effect of MoH expires, and there are Psychic Powers that have effects that exist after they are cast ( ex Gift of Chaos), even if another power is later cast or the power is cast again. By strict RAW with no assumptions other than your base assumption that "undefined duration equals infinite duration", MoH can be stacked to hell and back, ending up giving Mephiston +14d3 attacks at the bottom of turn 7, which might be fun to see.

Yes, in that assault phase he gains attacks.
In the next assault phase, is it "that" assault phase you originally cast the power?

And you're misunderstanding the way the rules work.
Once the power has permission to happen, you must find a restriction to stop it.
The psyker has Str10. Where is the permission to go back to normal?

In that assault phase is the duration, you only gain D3 attacks in the same turn you cast it, because you only gain the attacks in that assault phase.

Bacms wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
So we fire a ranged weapon, an the effect ends. This is because of the wording of P.50 Using a Psychic power is defined on P.50 as well, it details rolling the dice for a Psychic test. This is why PSA's are not cast once and last the whole game.

Still not convinced you haven't show me a RAW saying it ends. What the rules are saying is that a PSA counts as firing a weapon which I can do every turn on my shooting phase. So if I cast it I can now fire an assault 1 weapon, does not say it goes away for next turn.

But anyway I don't really care.

Using a Psychic power details rolling the dice for a Psychic test.

to Use a PSA you must use the Psychic Power that allows you to shoot as a weapon.

Using a PSA is defined as rolling the dice for a Psychic test, that is why you have to cast it every time.

jwolf wrote:And we're back to why even talking about rules on the Internet is a bad idea.

DeathReaper makes up a "truth", whole cloth, ignores rational discussion, finds what he believes is a loophole that matches up with his entirely RAW unsupported position, and now we're in the Fox News "what is accurate" argument:
One person with a crazy position and other rational people pointing out that it isn't supported anywhere by the rules. But some percentage of people will go with the crazy position, because DeathReaper speaks with conviction and the rational people admit to the inadequacies of the RAW.

Play however you like in your FLGS, DeathReaper. Don't cry to me when you can't play that nonsense anywhere else.

This.

For the sake of precedence, are there any psychic powers which last the whole game, and can we see their wording for comparison's sake?

Seriously, this is obviously not RAI, nor HAWPI, but is RAW.
Please understand the difference before posting further.

rigeld2 wrote:
And you're misunderstanding the way the rules work.
Once the power has permission to happen, you must find a restriction to stop it.
The psyker has Str10. Where is the permission to go back to normal?

I'm not misunderstanding how a permissive rule set works. Once a power has permission to work, it has to have a scope under which it works, undefined scope is not equivalent to unlimited scope. Your continued assertion that undefined is equivalent to unrestricted is unfounded and without merit - in short, you have no leg (or even convenient cane) to stand on.




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rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, this is RAW.
Please understand the difference before posting further.

Right back at you.

jwolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
And you're misunderstanding the way the rules work.
Once the power has permission to happen, you must find a restriction to stop it.
The psyker has Str10. Where is the permission to go back to normal?

I'm not misunderstanding how a permissive rule set works. Once a power has permission to work, it has to have a scope under which it works, undefined scope is not equivalent to unlimited scope. Your continued assertion that undefined is equivalent to unrestricted is unfounded and without merit - in short, you have no leg (or even convenient cane) to stand on.

There's no scope requirement. You're asserting something that doesn't exist.
I'm not equating undefined to to unrestricted.
You're asserting that undefined is restricted with no rules support.
You've got to have a rule saying that psychic powers must have a duration for your assertion to be true. I don't know of one.

rigeld2 wrote:Seriously, this is RAW.
Please understand the difference before posting further.

Right back at you.

Thanks for editing my statement and taking it out of context. I should've added the word "discussion" but you probably wouldve edited it out too.

jwolf wrote:I'm not misunderstanding how a permissive rule set works. Once a power has permission to work, it has to have a scope under which it works, undefined scope is not equivalent to unlimited scope. Your continued assertion that undefined is equivalent to unrestricted is unfounded and without merit - in short, you have no leg (or even convenient cane) to stand on.

As for the underlined, Sanguine Sword DOES have a scope in which it works.

Sanguine Sword states:
"The power is used at the start of either players Assault phase. The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

The scope in which it works is whenever The Librarian makes his close combat attacks. The scope is defined.

I'm asserting that undefined is undefined. Undefined duration does not give permission to have any duration, which is generally equivalent to nonexistence. I'm further asserting that in order to have any usage in the game a psychic power has to have a duration - whether that is instantaneous, for a turn, or until the end of time, because events happen in time. Without a defined duration we're left guessing, and your guess isn't RAW, no matter how much you say it is.

You're welcome for my editing; normally I charge for that, but it's free for you today!

In the end, one of us will walk away and drop the discussion, because we agree that Sanguine Sword as infinite isn't how to play it or the intent of the rules. We're just arguing about RAW, and your assertion of infinite duration has no basis in RAW. Looking around Dakka, you seem to have a lot of patience for playing "no, I'm right," games, so we'll see how it plays out here.

Oh, hush DarkReaper. Can't you see I'm arguing pointlessly with rigeld2 now?

Actually, as I have proven, Sanguine Sword has a defined time when it works. (whenever The Librarian makes his close combat attacks).

You have provided no rules to support your side of the argument.

And it is not the ""no, I'm right," games" It is the 'This is what the RAW actually state' game.

No, I'm right. RAW supports nothing.

jwolf wrote:No, I'm right. RAW supports nothing.

Citation needed.

I have provided rules quotes and page numbers that support my position.

I have not seen any rules to support the contrary.

jwolf wrote:By strict RAW with no assumptions other than your base assumption that "undefined duration equals infinite duration", MoH can be stacked to hell and back, ending up giving Mephiston +14d3 attacks at the bottom of turn 7, which might be fun to see.

TIL, MoH is awesome ...

Jwolf, obvious troll is obvious. You can't stack MoH, it is cast at the start of an assault phase, in "that" assault phase the librarian gets +D3. If it said "the librarian gets +d3 attacks in combat." then you'd have a case.

Your reduction ad absurdum arguement isn't great.

No you haven't. I cite page 50 of the BRB and page 63 of the Blood Angels codex as evidence that my position is perfect and accurate. If by scope you claim that "when making his CC attacks" meets the test, then the Librarian is using the power when he makes those CC attacks, correct? P. 50 of the BRB states that a player can "use one psychic power per player turn" and "[t]o use a psychic power, the Psyker must pass a Psychic test," so when the Librarian uses his power (makes CC attacks) he has to pass a Psychic test. So the default duration, as defined in the BRB, is a "use," and "uses" can occur in each player turn.

I hate being serious, but there it is.

@ liturgies of blood - You mean anyone arguing rules they don't believe are right is a troll? Damn, guess we can fold up the whole shop here. You haven't provided any evidence that the +d3 attacks goes away, I have provided RAW that attacks are gained without any scope (infinite, according to the "other side"), and that powers can be in effect on models after they are no longer active (Gift of Chaos). Clever talking isn't refutation.

Death Reaper, it says "... close combat attacks..." with no quantifers. Without quantifers it must be referencing the previous sentance. That reference states you must use the power in "the" (meaning current) assault phase to gain the benifit.

There is no permission for the extension.

jwolf wrote:I'm asserting that undefined is undefined. Undefined duration does not give permission to have any duration, which is generally equivalent to nonexistence. I'm further asserting that in order to have any usage in the game a psychic power has to have a duration - whether that is instantaneous, for a turn, or until the end of time, because events happen in time. Without a defined duration we're left guessing, and your guess isn't RAW, no matter how much you say it is.

You have no rules basis for the assertion that psychic powers must have a duration.
Furthermore there's no guessing - with no stated duration, theres no duration. It just is.

Please cite rules. There are rules allowing the use of the power. Find the restriction in the rules.

You're welcome for my editing; normally I charge for that, but it's free for you today!

It'd be great if you don't do that to my comments in the future. Thanks.

Looking around Dakka, you seem to have a lot of patience for playing "no, I'm right," games, so we'll see how it plays out here.

So... Are you trolling me? Or just accusing me of being stubborn and wrong?

"The power is used at the start of either players Assault phase. The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10" (BA codex P.63)

He uses the power at the start of the assault phase. the power works whenever The Librarian makes his close combat attacks. As per the second part of the rule "The Librarians close combat attacks are made at Strength 10"

Has the power been cast? If yes move onto the next question, if no stop.

Is The Librarian making his close combat attacks? If yes then Str 10 if no then not Str 10

Using a psychic power, from BRB P.50, states that you roll a Psychic test etc. If you are in a subsequent turn you are using the effects of a previously cast power, you are not re-using the Psychic power. Subtle but important difference.

Any other rules to back your side up?

Yonush wrote:Death Reaper, it says "... close combat attacks..." with no quantifers. Without quantifers it must be referencing the previous sentance. That reference states you must use the power in "the" (meaning current) assault phase to gain the benifit.

There is no permission for the extension.

Had it been worded "close combat attacks in that assault phase" then you would be correct. Note: the power is two different sentences, One details when it is used, the other states the effects without restricting it to a certain duration.

As it stands if he is making CC attacks he gets the buff.

No you have conflated two things together and are not only misreading the rules but inventing them.

"when making his close combat attacks" does not limit when those attacks occur.

On uses, a use has no defined duration. The brb gives one limit that is only one power can be activated in a turn. You have added more in there then there actually is.

@rigeld2 - I'm not trolling you any more than you are trolling me. I'm also disinclined to drop the argument, which is all we have.

@DeathReaper - The BRB tells us how to use psychic powers unless we have a specific provision in the Codex. Sanguine Sword has no such provision on duration, so we go to the BRB, which is per use. So he uses the power on his CC attacks, and the use is over. Must use again, must pass Psychic check again. That's RAW.

@liturgies of blood - You're going to have a hard time proving that the "use" of Sanguine Sword is anything other than bashing things at str 10 in close combat, especially since that's what the power says. So once you're no longer bashing in close combat, you aren't using it, and if you do like mommy should have taught you, you turn it off when not in use. Certainly the power is not in use when he's getting shot, or running, or riding in a Rhino (no matter how convenient that would be for your argument?).

I must actually recant my previous position that the RAW is ambiguous and we can't determine the duration. Thanks to this continued discussion, I am now clear that the default duration of powers is defined (each use) and that unless otherwise stated, after the power performs it's function the use is over.

jwolf wrote:@DeathReaper - The BRB tells us how to use psychic powers unless we have a specific provision in the Codex. Sanguine Sword has no such provision on duration, so we go to the BRB, which is per use. So he uses the power on his CC attacks, and the use is over. Must use again, must pass Psychic check again. That's RAW.

So in the BRB Psychic powers have a duration?

Citation needed, otherwise your argument is incorrect.

P.50 details that models normally can use one Psychic power per turn. They detail how to use a power (By rolling a Psychic test). with no restrictions on duration. therefore at its base level all Psychic powers, once used, last until the end of the game, Unless specified otherwise in the individual powers description.

Does SS specify otherwise?

Jwolf, your snide comments do nothing to help any arguement and only make you look foolish. Refrain from them and your points would be taken more seriously.

DeathReaper, it doesn't have to say that, for it to extend out of the current assault phase it must have permission which it doesn't. It doesn't need permission to end, it needs permission to continue.

It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Jwolf, I would prefer if you kept this civil.

The effects of sanguine sword have no limit. The power is activated and you have S10 when you render your attacks in cc. It could well be that you would have s10 when you are getting shot at and all the rest but since they are not in close combat it is rather moot because RAW the effect is only in cc.
The power gives you S10 attacks and it is activated at the start of an assault phase, it could be read to be a constant modification to the combat profile of the model. The one test making your librarian a cc powerhouse would seem overpowered but life isn't fair.

@ Yonush - Thanks so much for your insightful advice. There, now I'm being sarcastic. Really anyone who is taking this discussion as serious business should get out more.

@ DeathReaper - Again with the "unless it says otherwise, powers continue forever," which is just plain made up and 100% unsupported by any RAW. I'll cite again for your continued refusal to acknowledge: BRB, P. 50 - "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to your definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also duration). "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).
Psychic powers must be activated each time they are used, and unless otherwise specified, a use lasts during one player turn. Sanguine Sword specifies it is USED to make close combat attacks strike at S10. If it instead said that the Librarian was S10, you might have a case - who wouldn't want to be S10 while riding in a Rhino crowded full of half-crazy red marines? But alas, the scope is close combat (we agree on that) so once close combat is at an end, so is the use of the power, and once the use is over, you have to use it again, per the BRB as cited above.

@liturgies of blood - Where have I failed to be civil? It's not my fault that your argument is based on a fallacy. Making close combat attacks is the USE of the power; once used, a power ends unless it has permission to continue, which Sanguine Sword does not. That's BRB P.50.



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DeathReaper wrote:It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. It isn't true and is unsupported by any shred of RAW.

Perhaps I'm missing it, but where in the BRB does it say that psychic powers only last for the player turn?

Happyjew wrote:Perhaps I'm missing it, but where in the BRB does it say that psychic powers only last for the player turn?

Seriously, you'll have to read the thread. Already blue in the face.

I have read the thread, and I do not see anything in the rules that specifies how long a psychic power lasts.

jwolf wrote:@ DeathReaper - Again with the "unless it says otherwise, powers continue forever," which is just plain made up and 100% unsupported by any RAW. I'll cite again for your continued refusal to acknowledge: BRB, P. 50 - "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to your definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also duration). "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).
Psychic powers must be activated each time they are used, and unless otherwise specified, a use lasts during one player turn. Sanguine Sword specifies it is USED to make close combat attacks strike at S10. If it instead said that the Librarian was S10, you might have a case - who wouldn't want to be S10 while riding in a Rhino crowded full of half-crazy red marines? But alas, the scope is close combat (we agree on that) so once close combat is at an end, so is the use of the power, and once the use is over, you have to use it again, per the BRB as cited
above.

Not wrong at all. you have permission to use a power, that power is in effect until something says otherwise. That is how a permissive rule set works.

As for the underlined it is not used in CC, it is used at the start of either players assault phase. Also the effects of the power change the Strength of the Librarian on any cc attacks the Librarian makes.

it has no effect when not making cc attacks.

Using a power has a specific definition, Rolling a Psychic test.

the effects of that use are CC attacks are made at Str 10. with no listed duration.

Using a power and being under its effects are two different things.

The Scope is CC, but not 'that turn's CC' Huge distinction.

jwolf wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. It isn't true and is unsupported by any shred of RAW.

The BRB P.50 makes it true.

Okay, from the top:

DeathReaper asserts that "in Close Combat" gives the scope of the power.
I accept that Scope provides duration (events without duration do not occur), and further that this scope/duration is sufficient for us to know when the power is in use.
The BRB tells us that each USE requires the psyker to pass a Psychic test.
CC only happens in the Assault Phase. Once the Assault Phase is over, Sanguine Sword is no longer in USE.
To USE the power again, the psyker must test in the next Assault phase; the power was specifically USED in the Assault Phase, and not on a continued basis.

Powers lasting one player turn unless specified otherwise results from the acceptance of DeathReaper's definition of SCOPE above and: "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to DeathReaper's definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also DURATION - events must have duration, from instantaneous to eternal; this sentence provides a default of "per player turn")

Yes, I realized it's not as elegant as saying "Powers last forever unless you are told to turn them off" (no basis in RAW, contrary to every defined psychic power in 40K), but it at least is internally consistent and founded on the actual RAW and mutually agreed-upon definitions.

Again, you are not using the power in subsequent assault phases, as you are under the effects of the power that was used previously. Important difference.

DeathReaper wrote:

jwolf wrote:@ DeathReaper - Again with the "unless it says otherwise, powers continue forever," which is just plain made up and 100% unsupported by any RAW. I'll cite again for your continued refusal to acknowledge: BRB, P. 50 - "Psykers can only use one psychic power per player turn" (According to your definition of scope, the provides not only WHEN but SCOPE, which is also duration). "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).
Psychic powers must be activated each time they are used, and unless otherwise specified, a use lasts during one player turn. Sanguine Sword specifies it is USED to make close combat attacks strike at S10. If it instead said that the Librarian was S10, you might have a case - who wouldn't want to be S10 while riding in a Rhino crowded full of half-crazy red marines? But alas, the scope is close combat (we agree on that) so once close combat is at an end, so is the use of the power, and once the use is over, you have to use it again, per the BRB as cited
above.

Not wrong at all. you have permission to use a power, that power is in effect until something says otherwise. That is how a permissive rule set works.

As for the underlined it is not used in CC, it is used at the start of either players assault phase. Also the effects of the power change the Strength of the Librarian on any cc attacks the Librarian makes.

it has no effect when not making cc attacks.

Using a power has a specific definition, Rolling a Psychic test.

the effects of that use are CC attacks are made at Str 10. with no listed duration.

Using a power and being under its effects are two different things.

The Scope is CC, but not 'that turn's CC' Huge distinction.

jwolf wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:It has permission, as noted in the basic Psychic powers rules on P.50.

You have permission to cast the power.

Why are you confining it to the current assault phase when the rules do not allow you to stop the power at the end of the assault phase.

The default is no duration, so it never stops unless the power itself says it does.

Saying this over and over again doesn't make it true. It isn't true and is unsupported by any shred of RAW.

The BRB P.50 makes it true.

Your assertions are absolutely backwards, and you offer no rules quotes that give your assertions any validity. Repitition of the same points doesn't help your case.

The default duration of a power is, using your definition of scope, one player turn (when also defines how long - again, your definition and P.50 combined). Not that the default even matters in this case, as the power itself reveals it's particular duration. Sanguine Sword is cast in ANY assault phase, and has the duration of "CC attacks". Once the Librarian is no longer making CC attacks (for example, in the next movement phase) the power is no longer in USE, and when you want to USE the power again, you have to take a Psychic test. (Again, straight from the BRB, P.50). It's as simple as purple crayon.


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DeathReaper wrote:Again, you are not using the power in subsequent assault phases, as you are under the effects of the power that was used previously. Important difference.

Except that the power has already been used, and since it is only used in CC, once CC ends, the power is no longer in use. So you have to use it again to get the effects. Passing a Psychic test is required to use a power, but it isn't using the power.

The default duration of SS is undefined. (BA P.63)

Using a power is different than being under the effects of a power (P.50 for how to use a power)

The use of the SS psychic power has an effect. It effects the Librarians CC attacks. This does not specify that it does end, so it does not. (BA 63).

#1: Is the Librarian making cc attacks? if yes go to #2

#2: Has SS been used previous to these CC attacks? If yes then Str 10

jwolf wrote:Except that the power has already been used, and since it is only used in CC, once CC ends, the power is no longer in use. So you have to use it again to get the effects. Passing a Psychic test is required to use a power, but it isn't using the power.

You are not Using the power in subsequent assault phases, you are benefiting from its effects. Subtle difference.

" the power is no longer in use."
Again you have no rules backing that the duration stops at the end of the current assault phase.

Oh dear god.

It's little plastic men.

RAI is that the Psyker may be used for 1 turn. He may use it in any turn's assault phase.

RAW is all fair and good, but you have to use some common sense.

Again, it's all a game about little plastic army men. Don't get so aggressive.

Of course the purpose of this forum is to discuss RAW, unless you specify that you are talking about HYWPI.

The word "use" is what makes the difference here.

Jwolf thinks "use" means "utilize" whereas DR & company think it means "cast". I think the easiest answer is to see how "use" is used in the descriptions of the various psychic powers. Hopefully there'll be an answer.

Here's a list:
Tunderclap
Hammerhand
Dark Excommunication
Might of Titan
Quicksilver*
Sanctuary
The Shrouding
The Summoning
Vortex of Doom
Psychic Communion
Heroic Sacrifice
Warp Quake*
Astral Aim
Cleansing Flame
Reconstruction*
Zone of Banishment**
Force Dome*
Quickening
Null Zone
Might of the Ancients
The Gate of Infinity
Vortex of Doom
Might of Heroes
Shield of Sanguinius
Unleash Rage
Wings of Sanguinius
Doombolt
Warptime*
Gift of Chaos
Wind of Chaos
Lash of Submission
Nurgle's Rot
Bolt of Change

OK, so that was a few codices. Asterisked powers are those that directly contradict jwolf's position, double asterisked are those that maybe (??) could be construed to contradict DR's position.

I have to say the evidence is strongly in favor of DR's position.

One quick thing: there are two options if the duration is unspecified:
1) There is no duration
2) The duration is continuous.

1) would mean that the power did nothing, which violates what I'll call "the flickerfield rule," which states that anything that does nothing was meant to do something, and If there is an obvious RaW solution, use that solution. Which leads me to 2).

And I don't think anyone here is arguing that this is how anyone would play it irl.

DeathReaper wrote:The default duration of SS is undefined. (BA P.63)

Using a power is different than being under the effects of a power (P.50 for how to use a power)

The use of the SS psychic power has an effect. It effects the Librarians CC attacks. This does not specify that it does end, so it does not. (BA 63).

#1: Is the Librarian making cc attacks? if yes go to #2

#2: Has SS been used previous to these CC attacks? If yes then Str 10

jwolf wrote:Except that the power has already been used, and since it is only used in CC, once CC ends, the power is no longer in use. So you have to use it again to get the effects. Passing a Psychic test is required to use a power, but it isn't using the power.

You are not Using the power in subsequent assault phases, you are benefiting from its effects. Subtle difference.

" the power is no longer in use."
Again you have no rules backing that the duration stops at the end of the current assault phase.

Wait, wait, wait - are you saying that "in CC" doesn't define WHEN The Sanguine Sword is used? That somehow I am supposed to believe that the power is used constantly, even when it says exactly when it is used? The power has a specific set of conditions for HOW and WHEN it is used. Once the condition of WHEN is no longer accurate, it is no longer in use - surely we don't disagree on this basic premise?

We agree completely that ACTIVATING a power (passing a Psychic test) is different than USING a power (as Sanguine Sword) or Under the Effects of a power (Might of Heroes or Gift of Chaos). Being under the effects of a power has no significance in this case, however, as the Librarian must use Sanguine Sword (it can't target others), and he clearly must use it at the start of an Assault Phase. Where we appear to disagree is when the use of a power ends - I assert that power is no longer in use after the time when it can be used no longer exists. Thus, even without a duration, Psychic Communion used on turn 1 would not affect Reserve rolls on turn 2 (it does specify this turn), because the power only works in the GK Movement Phase. Once the applicable phase ends, the power cannot be "in use," as using it is disallowed. And the BRB tells us in so many words what to do each time we want to use a psychic power.

@Kitzz - What about the asteriked powers makes you think they contradict my position? If they have a defined duration, they are in use for that duration. It's only when they have no defined duration that the USE of the power is necessarily the duration.

Then, jwolf, how do you explain Quicksilver, Warp Quake, Reconstruction, and Warp Time?

Kitzz wrote:Then, jwolf, how do you explain Quicksilver, Warp Quake, Reconstruction, and Warp Time?

They have codex defined durations, so the default duration of USE from the BRB isn't used, as per the rules.

They still have the word "use" in some form in their descriptions. Their definition of "use" isn't more specific for the purposes of the psychic test itself. Your argument only changes the duration, not the requirement for the test.

Kitzz wrote:They still have the word "use" in some form in their descriptions. Their definition of "use" isn't more specific for the purposes of the psychic test itself. Your argument only changes the duration, not the requirement for the test.

Not clear what that has to do with anything. Having use in their descriptions isn't important to my argument in the faintest degree. I only stick on use for the case where the power has no described duration, as use is the default duration. Once the codex gives us a duration (until your next Movement Phase, for example) the term use isn't important to me at all for defining duration. And while the power is active (in use), there is no need to take another test.

Kitzz, do you agree that The Sanguine Sword is used in close combat, and only then? Certainly you agree that it is activated then and only has game effects then, right?

It has everything to do with your conception of psychic powers. For the purposes of Warp Quake, I would have to roll to use it on my opponent's turn, according to your definition.

In addition, for reconstruction, I have to "use" the power in the movement phase, but I can't utilize its effect until the shooting phase. Since I can't test again in the shooting phase (which, according to your argument, I must) the power does nothing.

I believe that RaW the sword is "used" once and its effects are limited to whatever scope the power defines. It says that it affects the attacks. So it does. There doesn't need to be an additional psychic test every time, because otherwise the four powers I listed either don't work or work differently than is commonly conceived.

Again, my definition only matters when the power doesn't have a duration set in it's description. Warp Quake does. Reconstruction does. Quicksilver does. Warptime does. So none of them need my definition, and I would not apply my definition to them.

The Sanguine Sword has part of a duration defined - in CC. Since it doesn't specify in this round or in all rounds or as long as you own the model, we fall back to the BRB duration, which is per use. Since Sanguine Sword doesn't modify a characteristic but instead modifies an action, it must stop being in use when the action is not legal.

But I could make your same argument for those four powers. The exact same one. The power says "use" so I go to the BGB to see what it says. And it says I can only use one per turn.

Duration has nothing to do with it.

Kitzz wrote:But I could make your same argument for those four powers. The exact same one. The power says "use" so I go to the BGB to see what it says. And it says I can only use one per turn.

You could make an argument, but it wouldn't be mine. All of those powers have a duration, so if it says use in them I don't care - the BRB already tells me to use the exceptions in the codex in place of what is in the BRB.

Kitzz wrote:Duration has nothing to do with it.

It happens to everyone now and again, nothing to be ashamed of.

SS has no duration in the BA codex, it has an effect which is s10 attacks in cc. If it said in that assault then you would have a strong arguement but no duration is there. You have gone from no duration = player turn duration to an easter egg hunt for a duration.


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Also Jwolf you seem very interested in talking about sexual preformance... really going for gold there. Try sticking to the arguements in the thread rather then just trolling.

Sorry that my poor attempts at humor fail to amuse you, liturgies of blood.

Continually posting the same argument with the same lack of validity must do something for you, though. Because this is the what, 4th or is it 5th time that you've asserted your opinion without any RAW to support it?

So as not to miss the opportunity: Doing it poorly 5 times isn't the same as doing it right!

Certainly I'm actually responding with reasoned and (gods forbid!) textually supported responses, even in the face of almost zero textual backing from the other side of the fence (or in your case, pond). I'm not sure how including the occasional bit of levity, even if it's not funny to you, makes my continued efforts to bring light to the darkness transform into trolling, but I want to assure you that I won't lose sleep about it.

Ghaz wrote:Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

By the same turn of logic, it very well could last for the entire game because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it doesn't last for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it doesn't. It's simply broken.

Lordhat wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

By the same turn of logic, it very well could last for the entire game because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it doesn't last for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it doesn't. It's simply broken.

Actually I think between DarkReaper (helping to define scope) and I we've established how long it lasts. One Assault Phase. This does require the synthesis of the BA selection and the BRB rules, but I think I've adequately walked through that. And I use RAW and stuff!

@ shabby.

One combo I have heard meantion from: Miniwargamer Dave on Youtube (though not specifically the sword) was:

During your turn - Blood Lance, During other players turn - Sanguine Shield. Though I have heard mention of the sword / rage combo from same player.

jwolf wrote: "To use a psychic power successfully, the psyker must pass a Psychic test" (so now we see that to USE a power, you have to test - Sanguine Sword isn't USED except in close combat, so it is by definition NOT USED when not in close combat, which means that it must be activated again to be used again).

Straw man. If you use a switch to turn on a light, the light doesn't shut off simply because you've stopped using the switch, or used another switch to turn on the ceiling fan. Even if every other switch in the house has a timer on it. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a psyker cannot be under the effects of two different powers at once, nor do they say that being under the effects of such a power prevents the psyker from using a different power. Nowhere on page 50 is duration mentioned. Indeed, how to apply psychic powers isn't discussed on pg 50 at all.

If the effect is that the psyker makes attacks at Str. 10, then the psyker makes attacks at Str. 10, and if no duration is specified, then the effect lasts forever by default.


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jwolf wrote:

Lordhat wrote:

Ghaz wrote:Again, there is no rule that states that no listed duration equals infinite duration.

The RAW is we don't know how long the power lasts because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it lasts for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it does.

By the same turn of logic, it very well could last for the entire game because the rules don't tell us how long it lasts. Trying to claim it doesn't last for the entire game has no support in the rules unless you can provide an actual quote that says it doesn't. It's simply broken.

Actually I think between DarkReaper (helping to define scope) and I we've established how long it lasts. One Assault Phase. This does require the synthesis of the BA selection and the BRB rules, but I think I've adequately walked through that. And I use RAW and stuff!

All I've seen you do is attempt to invent a convention, and insult people's sexual performance (I chuckled ). You've established nothing.

Gosh, Lord Hat, if only some other people had said that, I'd have recognized the error of my ways! Oh, wait, there are pages of people saying the same thing, with the same complete lack of citation. And lo and behold, I am equally unmoved by your assertion without textual support.

And no, mine is not a straw man argument. Your analogy isn't applicable. Try this one, which is analogous (I find that useful in an analogy!): You can drive your car at 60 miles an hour on the road. When you park your car and get out, your car isn't still travelling at highway speeds (relative to the Earth, let's not get into celestial mechanics). SS is like driving your car at highway speeds, parking your car is the end of the assault phase. You simply cannot make CC attacks outside of the Assault Phase, so SS simply cannot be in use. That's all RAW, all backed up in the pages of this thread repeatedly, and never disputed by RAW citation by anyone.

More: I don't think I've invented a convention. I think I've described what is actually written, in a case we rarely consider (because what else besides SS and MoH are so poorly described, durationally (I did invent that word, just now)), and looked at the exact wording of the BRB and the SS power to draw the most complete conclusion possible.

And I'm glad someone else finds my silly jokes amusing. I make no claim to actually being funny, but if we can't laugh at ourselves, we're just going to be confused when other people do, you know?

jwolf wrote: You simply cannot make CC attacks outside of the Assault Phase,

Death or glory.

RAW
The power is used at the start of either players assault phase. The librarians close combat attacks are made at strenght 10.

Line 1: The power is used.... This covers when you make a psychic test and everything on page 50 is covered then. One power is used etc etc.
Line 2: The effect of a successful test is discussed. The librarians's cc attacks limits the scope of the power to attacks rather then his strenght stat but it speaks nothing of duration. The lack of duration would mean you need to fall back on the brb so where in that does it limit the duration of the effect of powers?

@ Lord Hat - Hey, not bad. But if you aren't Tank Shocked, you don't Death or Glory. So is the power still running until you determine that you aren't making a death or glory attack? Is there any possible way to use a CC attack in the Shooting Phase? And how do we allow the power to be active in another Player turn? No permission is given for that in Sanguine Sword, and that's not how the BRB says we do it.

@ liturgies of blood - "can use one psychic power per player turn." Right there. Default duration for powers is "one player turn". Almost every power describes itself as not following that (most powers are for less than a player turn, Warp Quake is for a full game turn).

jwolf wrote:

@ liturgies of blood - "can use one psychic power per player turn."

Where does this state or imply that being under the effect of a psychic power is using it? If that's the case then only psykers can 'use' Guide, and Doom, as only psykers have permission to use psychic powers.

No you have it wrong there default number of psyker powers used ie. number of psychic tests per turn is one. I can do a, b times in a turn. Does that mean that a's effect lasts a turn?
When you do logical questions in sats etc that would be the one where you tick not enough information.

jwolf wrote:

Kitzz wrote:But I could make your same argument for those four powers. The exact same one. The power says "use" so I go to the BGB to see what it says. And it says I can only use one per turn.

You could make an argument, but it wouldn't be mine. All of those powers have a duration, so if it says use in them I don't care - the BRB already tells me to use the exceptions in the codex in place of what is in the BRB.

Kitzz wrote:Duration has nothing to do with it.

It happens to everyone now and again, nothing to be ashamed of.

Poor taste in humor aside, please try to understand what I'm saying. Whether or not you care about their duration, if you consider the term "use" to be the general and the powers to be specific examples, you are mistaken. None of the powers overrides the "use" as explained in the BGB. They tell you when they can be used. Telling you when they can be used has nothing to do with how long they last or how you activate them (e.g., with a psychic power).

The definition you suppose "use" to have in this context is still the same for all these examples. None of them specifically overrides the general definition in the rulebook. To only use your interpretations of "use" for one power and not for the others is to pick and choose the RaW you want when you want. All they do is reference use, not redefine it, which is what is necessary to make a specific vs. general argument.

@ Kitzz - Obviously we'll have to disagree. The BRB says use these rules unless the codex says do something different; in the cases mentioned we don't use the "use" definition for duration from the BRB because the codex powers specify their duration, overriding the BRB. I don't see how I'm mistaken in this - the BRB says to follow exceptions from the codex instead of the BRB, where applicable. The duration for most powers is spelled out in the codices, so the duration from the BRB is overwritten, which is exactly what the BRB says to do. I'm not cherrypicking RAW; I'm following it exactly.

I'm certainly not redefining use depending on which power it applies to; I'm ignoring "use" from the BRB to determine the duration of powers that have duration defined in their codices.

@ Lord Hat - In the specific case of Sanguine Sword, the target of the power is also using it. So the Librarian uses the power and is also under the effect of the power. Not sure what Doom would have to do with this, and not even sure what you're intending to prove, but I clearly don't get your point. Surely you don't mean to say that the Librararian who uses Sanguine Sword isn't under the effect of the power?

@ liturgies of blood - What are you trying to say? If you're trying to say that the duration of Sanguine Sword as defined in the Blood Angels codex is undefined, we agree!

Hey, this is fun. Let's see if we can break the game even more!

I cast SS in game 1. Do I keep using it in game 2 and game 3? Do I have to retest before game 4 or can I continue using SS all the way into game 8? It doesn't say it ends right?

Also what if I want to use a different model? If I sell the old one, does the guy who buys it from me get the bonus or can I claim the bonus for my new finecast model? We don't both get the bonus, do we?


Citations please.

I am saying it is undefined, you don't get to put in a limit on undefined just because you want to. You have not backed up the RAI idea that it lasts one assault phase, since we are talking in RAW then we must limit ourselves to that.

Without any guidance it must be assumed that the power's effect continues as we have a defined point of initiation but no words on when the effect ends. The BRB does not state any limits on how long a power's effects may last to say it does is to introduce your own material.

I cited the rule, if you don't want to read my posts then feel fine to keep your head in the sand. I can't site something that I am saying is not on page 50.

If I cast SS on my new finecast model and then I lend him to my friend who plays Ultramarines, does my friend get to use the bonus for his game as well? The bonus never ends right? So the model would always have the bonus once it has been cast, right?

liturgies of blood wrote:I am saying it is undefined, you don't get to put in a limit on undefined just because you want to. You have not backed up the RAI idea that it lasts one assault phase, since we are talking in RAW then we must limit ourselves to that.

Without any guidance it must be assumed that the power's effect continues as we have a defined point of initiation but no words on when the effect ends. The BRB does not state any limits on how long a power's effects may last to say it does is to introduce your own material.

I cited the rule, if you don't want to read my posts then feel fine to keep your head in the sand. I can't site something that I am saying is not on page 50.

Undefined is null, which we read as zero in computing. In regular math undefined is simply undefined, which makes it useless for determining anything. One things for sure, no definition of undefined as infinite is valid, which is the one you keep roaming back to, for reasons I can't fathom. I actually have backed up my idea that it lasts one Assault Phase using RAW from a couple of different directions; you can keep ignoring that if you want, but you certainly haven't refuted my position effectively.

I do not agree with your assertion that without guidance the power must continue indefinitely, nor do I agree that we have no guidance. Nor am I introducing my own material.

What rule did you cite that I'm ignoring? I agreed with what I think you said in your last post (heck, that is one of the reasons I believe the power is limited, the undefined state in the BA Codex means we have to go back to the BRB looking for a definition).

Anyway, it's late and you should get some sleep, Irish.

Well to deal with that point look at the fact that it's an ultramarine army. Does an ultramarine librarian have ss?

Jwolf, are you having a go? Please tell me you are trying to have a go at me on some slowed nationalistic bent?
The post was at radiation. All of the stuff on how computers and math work when it comes to analysis of language fall. Computers are not english or language in the way that people use it, undefined =/= zero nor infinite but when it defines an effect but no limit on the effect then why do you impose a limit? Putting in a limit without a quote from the brb is what I am objecting to. I haven't seen any backing for your insertion of a limit.
To speak maths, ss is a function the function where is y=10 when a is greater then x but less than b , where a is the point at which you cast ss. a must be equal to the start of an assault phase. The boundry condition b is not defined so what do you do?

jwolf wrote:@ Kitzz - Obviously we'll have to disagree. The BRB says use these rules unless the codex says do something different; in the cases mentioned we don't use the "use" definition for duration from the BRB because the codex powers specify their duration, overriding the BRB. I don't see how I'm mistaken in this - the BRB says to follow exceptions from the codex instead of the BRB, where applicable. The duration for most powers is spelled out in the codices, so the duration from the BRB is overwritten, which is exactly what the BRB says to do. I'm not cherrypicking RAW; I'm following it exactly.

I'm certainly not redefining use depending on which power it applies to; I'm ignoring "use" from the BRB to determine the duration of powers that have duration defined in their codices.

And I'm not agreeing to disagree with you because you still don't understand what I'm saying yet. I am ALSO ignoring "use" for the purposes of determining duration of psychic powers. Your interpretation of "use" in the SS example has more to it than duration, though, which is what I've been trying to show you. I've been making an argument ad absurdem. Your definition of "use" for the SS example is flawed because it doesn't hold up as a general case for other psychic powers.

Your assumption that "use" has anything at all to do with duration is flawed. That is what I have been trying to show you. The "use" part you think is overwritten isn't overwritten.

I will try to show you by example. This is an analogy to the argument you are making:

A power weapon is a close combat weapon that follows all the rules for a normal close combat weapon except it ignores armor saves. A force weapon is a power weapon that also does [x]. Therefore, because a force weapon is a specific type of power weapon, the rules for normal close combat weapons don't apply to it.

Except that argument is flawed. Force weapons still follow the rules for normal close combat weapons except the specific things they do differently. They don't redefine how close combat weapons work, or modify the to-hit chart.

What you are saying is that because certain psychic powers specify durations, they aren't "used" the same way. Use has nothing to do with duration. It isn't overwritten because the specific part of those psychic powers tells us what they do and how long they last. They are still used. They still follow the same rules for use.

Use is not overwritten. Duration and function are. But use is not.

You are trying to argue that "use" implies a duration or has a default duration. But it doesn't. The other psychic powers I showed were examples of where use is utilized without any temporal reference whatsoever. This means the designers did not conceive of "use" in the same way you are. Therefore, your interpretation is flawed, because if your definition of "use" is used broadly (which, again, it must be, because "use" is never specified differently in any of the powers) it makes some powers useless and others different from common interpretation.

Do you see what I am saying yet?

jwolf wrote:

@ Lord Hat - In the specific case of Sanguine Sword, the target of the power is also using it. So the Librarian uses the power and is also under the effect of the power. Not sure what Doom would have to do with this, and not even sure what you're intending to prove, but I clearly don't get your point. Surely you don't mean to say that the Librararian who uses Sanguine Sword isn't under the effect of the power?

My point is that being under the effect of a power and taking advantage of said effect CANNOT equate to using that power, otherwise PP's such as doom and guide could only ever affect a psyker.
Do I think the power was intended to last the entire game? No. Would I ever try to play it that way? Again, no. But that doesn't mean that the rules magically twist and contort to mean that all powers have a default duration unless specified otherwise. Your argument fails simply because the rules don't say, or imply anything close to what you propose.

liturgies of blood wrote:I am saying it is undefined, you don't get to put in a limit on undefined just because you want to. You have not backed up the RAI idea that it lasts one assault phase, since we are talking in RAW then we must limit ourselves to that.

Without any guidance it must be assumed that the power's effect continues as we have a defined point of initiation but no words on when the effect ends. The BRB does not state any limits on how long a power's effects may last to say it does is to introduce your own material.

I cited the rule, if you don't want to read my posts then feel fine to keep your head in the sand. I can't site something that I am saying is not on page 50.

I'm not here to back up RAI. I asked it the bonus for SS continues on into consecutive games. That's the way it appears according to the logic you and your pals are using. Are you going to stick your neck out and answer or what? You say we "don't get to put a limit on undefined." If the model has the SS bonus how can you take that bonus away if I let an Ultramarine player use it. He could pick whatever powers he wanted and he would still get the bonus attached to the model because we "don't get to put a limit on undefined."

If you get your models lost wounds back at the start of the next game then the slate is wiped clean. If you are playing in some crazy battle royal league where your army goes on to the next game with the same losses then maybe. Do any in game effects affect your next game? Do I get to use lemartes with his increased strength and attack profiles in the next game because he took a wound in this game?

The reduction of an arguement to an absurd is not analysis of the issue.

I think Lemartes has to take a wound within the game for his bonus to apply. I'm not the one arguing that we can't set limits. Your main argument is that we can't set limits on undefined. Wounds are "reset" at the beginning of each game. That has nothing to do with SS being undefined. I think argueing that SS is not limited to the specific phase is to delve into the absurd. This is the logical limit. What is being used to rationalize SS lasting longer than the initial phase is not logic. It is rationalization. According to this rationalization there is nothing to stop SS ever. Unless you can find something to stop it besides the stop at the original phase.

@Radiation - I don't think anyone is actually playing with Sanguine Sword lasting more than a round; we're all arguing about what is written, not what the RAI or even HAWPI. At least, I hope that's the case?

@ Lord Hat - We agree that being under the affect of a power and using a power are not necessarily the same thing. They are the same thing for Sanguine Sword, however. I disagree, obviously, on what the rules say regarding duration - based on the acceptance of DeathReaver's definition of scope from what, page 2?

@ Kitzz - I'm pretty sure I understand what you're saying, but if I do, I disagree with your position. For my purposes, "use" defines the event of using a power, and in the undefined case, defines the duration of the power. That's all I care about "use" for - defining the duration of use (in the case of Sanguine Sword, one assault phase - maybe only one close combat in one assault phase is even more accurate - , as it has no other defined duration). The other definitions of "use" aren't involved in the question at hand, so being active are inactive or whatever make no difference to the question or answer I'm looking for.

@ liturgies of blood - I was simply noting that it was about 1am there, and meant no disrespect to you based on your being Irish. Even though the majority of my blood isn't Irish, I am fair skinned, formerly red haired, and feel a certain affection for your country. I couldn't agree more with your assertion that we have an unassigned variable in the BA power Sanguine Sword.

wow you guys are still going on about this...how hard can it be. there is really only 2 pages to look at.

like i said i got my answer (http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/395066.page#3295042) and i feel that anyone else reading this looking for a simple answer also would be overwhelmed. trying to figure out what one word means to one person and what it means to another isnt helping anyone else out. implying what a word is just means your looking at RAI instead of what the word actually is.

ive read over pg 50 in the BRB and 63 in the blood angel codex. in pg 50 on the first paragraph (non bold paragraph) ive learned that "The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers." using that sentence i then looked at pg 63 in the blood angel codex at the Sanguine sword entry. i then compared that entry to the rest of pg 63. making that comparison ive came to the conclusion that everyone else in the link provided came to. i then got my answer. and just to confirm i didnt miss anything i fully re-read pg 50 or the BRB and again the only thing that jumped out at me was the sentence i posted here. but yes you will probably tell me that "psykers can use one psychic power per player turn." but reading the following sentence the BRB tells you how to use a power. it doesnt say anything that to continuously be under the effect of a psychic power that you must continue to "use" the power. and by "use" im referring to making a psychic test. however what the BRB does say in that regards is "The psychic powers available to our models are not discussed further here, but are described in detail in the codexes, where you will find complete rules for individual powers."

by the way the answer i came to was that there was no ending duration other than that the power just says that my close combat attacks are made at str 10

see its simple. at first i didnt understand but after reading 4 pages of arguments back and forth over little things like what the word "use" means to different people i re-read those two pages and it made sense even if i didnt agree with the outcome. to me with this question i posted there shouldnt have been such very heated debate on something that isnt printed on those two pages when you are arguing about RAW.

Shabby wrote: there shouldnt have been such very heated debate on something that isnt printed on those two pages.

You're touching on a problem with this entire forum. Well.. perhaps the entire internet.

Was someone hot during that? I certainly found it mildly entertaining, and actually fairly worthwhile, once other people actually started trying to examine the question instead of just pretending their assertions were correct.

For me? Pff. Couldn't care less. I'm actively poking sticks at the St. Celestine / Squig thread just b/c I think it's funny and I tangentially understand the issues.

But for someone who's trying to figure out how to play something this forum is sometimes not the best reference. Especially if they need the info this week.

jwolf wrote:@ Lord Hat - We agree that being under the affect of a power and using a power are not necessarily the same thing. They are the same thing for Sanguine Sword, however. I disagree, obviously, on what the rules say regarding duration - based on the acceptance of DeathReaver's definition of scope from what, page 2?.

Being under the effect of a power and using a power are not the same thing. They are not the same thing for Sanguine Sword.

As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a Psychic test. Being under the effects of Sanguine Sword does not make you take another psychic test.

To say that is to say that the only person who can "use" Unleashed Rage is the Librarian that cast it. Which is incorrect.

DeathReaper wrote:

jwolf wrote:@ Lord Hat - We agree that being under the affect of a power and using a power are not necessarily the same thing. They are the same thing for Sanguine Sword, however. I disagree, obviously, on what the rules say regarding duration - based on the acceptance of DeathReaver's definition of scope from what, page 2?.

Being under the effect of a power and using a power are not the same thing. They are not the same thing for Sanguine Sword.

As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a Psychic test. Being under the effects of Sanguine Sword does not make you take another psychic test.

To say that is to say that the only person who can "use" Unleashed Rage is the Librarian that cast it. Which is incorrect.

No it isn't. Let's take a power that is targeted on someone else, like Guide. If the Farseer uses Guide on another unit, the Farseer has to check and the other unit is under the effects of Guide. Sanguine Sword can only be targeted on the Librarian, who both uses and is the target of the power. So to be under the effects of SS and be using the power are contain the same set (set A = set B for Sanguine Sword, both sets contain the Librarian only, hence my "same thing," which is literally true but I now understand is confusing). Using a power as described in the BRB REQUIRES taking a Psychic test, it isn't TAKING a Psychic test. (That's like saying having gasoline in the car is driving a car).

I do not love the attempts to relate really stupid things to what I'm saying. I bother to take the time to figure out what you mean, making the assumption you aren't impossibly stupid; you can do me the same favor, I hope?

jwolf wrote:I do not love the attempts to relate really stupid things to what I'm saying. I bother to take the time to figure out what you mean, making the assumption you aren't impossibly stupid; you can do me the same favor, I hope?

I am not sure to what you are referring.

However onto the Use a psychic power part:

P.50 details how you USE a psychic power: "To USE a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

That is how one will "Use" a psychic power.

if you cast doom on the enemy, it is the Psyker that is using doom, but the enemy suffers its effects.

If you can not agree to this, then we can not have any further discussion.

The point, Jwolf, is that "to use" can either be a continuous state like you're proposing ( close combat attacks are strength 10, and once the model stops making CCA's then it is no longer using the power) , or "to use" can be a non-continuous state (like flipping a light switch). So far you have yet to cite any rule ( and this is the kicker, in a rules debate you should really cite rules) that supports your claim that using a PP is more than "take psychic test, apply effect(s)."

The BGB doesn't list any conditions or modifiers or restrictions for psychic powers other than stating that a test must use the psyker's own leadership. This means that all of this data must come from the codex, and when a paramater isn't listed you must assume one of two things: the paramater is zero, or infinite. Since in this case a duration of zero means the power does nothing, then infinite duration is the only other option.

As to scope, the scope of the power is close combat attacks. Without further limitaion, the scope contains any and all close combat attacks for the rest of the game.

There is plenty of precedent in the game to support my position. Temporary effects have their duration listed, permanent affects either don't have their duration listed, or state "for the rest of the game." Examples:

Vulkan's Chapter Tactics: Lose x, gain y. No duration listed. Permanent.
Nemesor Zandrekh's Adaptive Tactics: target gains x. Duration listed. Temporary.
Nemesor Zandrekh's Counter Tactics: target loses x. Duration listed. Temporary.
Entropic Strike (vs armour saves): Duration listed. Permanent.
Entropic Strike (vs armour values): No duration listed. Permanent.

DeathReaper wrote:As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a psychic test.

DeathReaper wrote:P.50 details how you USE a psychic power: "To USE a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

That is how one will "Use" a psychic power.

Okay, I don't care about the outcome of this or squiggification or umpteen other ongoing semantic slapfights, but this is just wrong. And it's blatantly wrong, enough so that the word "stupid" might come into play. Passing a psychic test is clearly an enabling condition that must be met in order to then USE a psychic power. It's not in and of itself the USE of that power, it's a necessary precursor. Just like jwolf sez.

If you take and pass a psychic test, you can use the power.
If you take and fail a psychic test, you can NOT use the power.

See how "taking the test" isn't the same as using the power?

If you can not agree to this, then we can not have any further discussion.

I vote for this!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lordhat wrote:when a paramater isn't listed you must assume one of two things: the paramater is zero, or infinite.

I don't see this either. Duration often can and must be inferred from context. You're trotting out a number of Necron examples below, go find me the duration for Lord of the Storm, b/c I think you've just proved killing Imotekh doesn't stop it. (This would be a good thing for my lists.)

Randall Turner wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:P.50 details how you USE a psychic power: "To USE a psychic power successfully the psyker must pass a Psychic test, which is a normal Leadership test."

That is how one will "Use" a psychic power.

Okay, I don't care about the outcome of this or squiggification or umpteen other ongoing semantic slapfights, but this is just wrong. And it's blatantly wrong, enough so that the word "stupid" might come into play. Passing a psychic test is clearly an enabling condition that must be met in order to then USE a psychic power. It's not in and of itself the USE of that power, it's a necessary precursor. Just like jwolf sez.

If you take and pass a psychic test, you can use the power.
If you take and fail a psychic test, you can NOT use the power.

See how "taking the test" isn't the same as using the power?

Using a Psychic power is different from the effects of said Psychic power being cast "Used"

Once you successfully use the psychic power you get the benefits of its effects. The use is casting the power, That is how you use a power according to P.50.

The effects of the power is not using the power. If this were true then any unit that has had Doom used on it, would have to make a psychic test. Which is not correct.

How do you not see that?

Dude, you snipped your "ima doofus" line out of your quote of my post. ie....

DeathReaper wrote:As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a psychic test.

... then go on another hand-waving spree w/more semantical hairsplitting and strawmanning. My post was, "taking a psychic test does not equal using a psychic power", as you're maintaining. I don't have jwolf's patience.

Randall Turner wrote:Dude, you snipped your "ima doofus" line out of your quote of my post. ie....

DeathReaper wrote:As using a power is described in the BRB as taking a psychic test.

... then go on another hand-waving spree w/more semantical hairsplitting and strawmanning. My post was, "taking a psychic test does not equal using a psychic power", as you're maintaining. I don't have jwolf's patience.

My ("ima doofus" line) Really? I thought we were having a civil discussion.

"taking a psychic test does not equal using a psychic power" Citation needed. Hint: it is not on P.50, because P.50 backs up my interpretation.

DeathReaper wrote:"taking a psychic test does not equal using a psychic power" Citation needed. Hint: it is not on P.50, because P.50 backs up my interpretation.

really?

pp. 50 says that if you take a psychic test and fail, you can't use a psychic power.

If taking a psychic test is using a psychic power, you've got a contradiction - you're using a psychic power to determine you can't use a psychic power. And despite what Rigeld2 might think, a contradiction or a paradox or any other logical fallacy deriving from an assumption means the assumption is incorrect.

"rigeld2 wrote:
Please cite the rule that prevents a paradox."

The Use of a Psychic power is different than using the effects of said psychic power Use.

I would like to thank Kitzz, Lord Hat, and rigeld2 for what I believe are honest efforts to represent the other side of the argument. I apologize to liturgies of blood for offending you multiple times; I did not mean to do so.

At least we all agree that for actual game play, The Sanguine Sword lasts for one Assault Phase.

Randall Turner wrote:And despite what Rigeld2 might think, a contradiction or a paradox or any other logical fallacy deriving from an assumption means the assumption is incorrect.

False. You have no leg to stand on with that sentence.
It's only incorrect if it breaks the rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

Randall Turner wrote:And despite what Rigeld2 might think, a contradiction or a paradox or any other logical fallacy deriving from an assumption means the assumption is incorrect.

False. You have no leg to stand on with that sentence.
It's only incorrect if it breaks the rules.

Dude. seriously. It's a form of formal logical proof, just like deduction or mathematical induction. (googling...)

Proof by Contradiction:
"In logic, proof by contradiction is a form of proof that establishes the truth or validity of a proposition by showing that the proposition's being false would imply a contradiction. Since by the law of bivalence a proposition must be either true or false, and its falsity has been shown impossible, the proposition must be true."

Bivalence:
"In logic, the semantic principle (or law) of bivalence states that every declarative sentence expressing a proposition (of a theory under inspection) has exactly one truth value, either true or false."

The paradoxical argument you're referring to is FnP vs *.
There's no reason to assume that FnP creates a paradox because there's no need to re-evaluate if FnP could've been rolled.
Bringing it up here is pointless and purposely trying to drag the thread off topic.

rigeld2 wrote:The paradoxical argument you're referring to is FnP vs *.
There's no reason to assume that FnP creates a paradox because there's no need to re-evaluate if FnP could've been rolled.
Bringing it up here is pointless and purposely trying to drag the thread off topic.

A paradox or contradiction is always an indication of flawed logic. My point in this thread was that DeathReaper's assertion lead to one. And it is on topic, it went towards some logic on psychic power use, which was linked to duration.

I'll remove that quote in my sig if you like, I just thought it was funny.

Randall Turner wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:The paradoxical argument you're referring to is FnP vs *.
There's no reason to assume that FnP creates a paradox because there's no need to re-evaluate if FnP could've been rolled.
Bringing it up here is pointless and purposely trying to drag the thread off topic.

A paradox or contradiction is always an indication of flawed logic. My point in this thread was that DeathReaper's assertion lead to one. And it is on topic, it went towards some logic on psychic power use, which was linked to duration.

I'll remove that quote in my sig if you like, I just thought it was funny.

That's not always true. And I don't care about your point - I do care that you implied I was wrong in the situation I referenced.
I don't care about your sig (or anyone else's - I have them off).
I was addressing the accusatory "tone" you typed that in.

You were totally wrong in saying that a paradox, or in this case contradiction, ever doesn't matter. The question of whether a contradiction exists in the case of FNP is a completely separate issue. Questioning whether one exists is always valid. But you cannot say things like:

rigeld2 wrote:It's only incorrect if it breaks the rules.

No, no, no! When you do that, you earn a measure of censure.

jwolf wrote:I would like to thank Kitzz, Lord Hat, and rigeld2 for what I believe are honest efforts to represent the other side of the argument. I apologize to liturgies of blood for offending you multiple times; I did not mean to do so.

At least we all agree that for actual game play, The Sanguine Sword lasts for one Assault Phase.

Well. you're welcome. I enjoy the debating more than the playing sometimes.

NOOOOOO!!!! Come on guys, we all know this is not the proper way to debate. It should be something like:
Question is asked.
Person A responds citing rule.
Person B comes in and says that the rule actually works differently.
Person A then calls Person B an idiot, and uses the dictionary to back up his position.
Person C comes in and says something completely off topic.
Person B insists he is right, and that Person A is a Troll.
Person A and B go back and forth with the same arguments.
Moderator comes in and berates everyone for being mean.
Thread dies off, as everyone loses interest.

Two months later...
New poster asks similar question.
Person A points to this thread.
Argument between Person A and Person B starts back up.

Rinse, and repeat.

Can we please get it right?

Happyjew wrote:NOOOOOO!!!! Come on guys, we all know this is not the proper way to debate. It should be something like:
Question is asked.
Person A responds citing rule.
Person B comes in and says that the rule actually works differently.
Person A then calls Person B an idiot, and uses the dictionary to back up his position.
Person C comes in and says something completely off topic.
Person B insists he is right, and that Person A is a Troll.
Person A and B go back and forth with the same arguments.
Moderator comes in and berates everyone for being mean.
Thread dies off, as everyone loses interest.

No it should be that D comes in before Trolling to give another look at the question and E asks why we all can't get along.
You are talking about Trolling as intended here this is all about trolling as written.

And of course, Person F-M agree with Person A, and think Person B is an idiot for interpreting the rules that way. At which point Person N comes in reads through the thread and decides that Person B (who has no rules backing whatsoever to support his position) seems to know what he is talking about and agrees with him.

Of course, we could always have a serious discussion, but that's no fun.