I have recently been playing with necrons and have come to some interesting conclusions.
I have been running Imotekh and a Ccb lord as my hqs but im having a hard time justifying the points for Imotekh.He can consistently get 3-4 turns of night fighting in which is nice for preventing my immortals in the back from getting shot but seems to do nothing for wraiths after a few turns, his lighting is also pretty underwhelming .So he is really only good for going first and getting in 1-2 more turns of nightfight Vs two teks. Im not sure what all the hype is about him maybe i have missed something.
Second my wraiths cant seem to be able to kill anything.Against most things i assault it seems like its a huge tarpit with both sides doing 1-2 wounds to each other.
How is it that two of the "best" unit in the book consistently under preform?
I have been thinking about replacing imotekh for nemessor and two pulse teks .Reason being is nemessor can buff whichever unit needs it and the teks can keep it dark and provide some decent AT shots and nemessor saves me the points for a reslord so it comes out to be cheaper on the hole.
Imotekh has a lot of utility for his points. As you say yourself, he can give you more turns of darkness than 2 pulseteks. He also is very inexpensive for all the gear he has. His abilities work even if he is in reserve. He is very hard to kill directly due to 2+/3++ T5 3W. He is also phaeron and has an interesting weapon. Most importantly, the lightning is absolutely brutal in certain matchups, particularly against MSU and low AV. Once in a while, he can do so much damage that he basically decides the game. All of that for 225 pts. I think he is quite cheap. He does not work in all lists, but he works very well with CC lists.
Wraiths have rending S6 and 4 attacks on the charge. With coils, they strike first in almost every matchup. There are very few things that can tarpit them, chiefly hammernators. Against most other units, they eat through rather quickly, unless they are grossly outnumbered. You have to field them en mass and have to pick your targets at least to some extent, but they are good against almost everything and excellent against some. Also, they have high flexibility due to the combination of their special rules, speed, and damage potential. They are overall the best unit in the Newcron codex.
Try out the Nemesor and decide for yourself. He is 40 points less expensive and has an orb and interesting rules, but overall IMO he is not even half as useful as Imotekh in at least half of the lists.
azgrim wrote:my wraiths cant seem to be able to kill anything.Against most things i assault it seems like its a huge tarpit with both sides doing 1-2 wounds to each other.
How is it that two of the "best" unit in the book consistently under preform?
Depends: how many are you taking, and what are you throwing them at?
As Necrontyr40k mentioned, you have to know what they will work best against. Not sticking them in combat against massive blobs of Boyz is a good start. Avoiding Terminators is also relatively a good idea.
Regarding Imotekh, I think if used properly he's effective, but I have yet to figure his most effective tactics out so far, so I've left him sidelined... though, that may change when 6th comes out if they change how deep strike works (so Flayed Ones stop sucking so hard, and the Blood Swarm Scarabs ability actually makes sense)
I don't really like Imotekh. I typically prefer the core of my crons be shooty with maybe some CC counter charge support, and Imotekh really works counter-inutitively to a shooty list. He's much better suited to a CC list. Generally for HQs, I prefer 1-2 standard overlords with a warscythe and CCB, adding mindshackle scarabs and a sepiternal weave if I have the extra points. Cheap and effective. Add a couple of pulseteks for nightfighting if I need it.
I played Zahndrekh yesterday and was impressed at hwo well the additional buffs worked (ket giving my unit of 3 heavy destoryers TanK hunters. Immobilizes a land radier in turn 1!).
I can see him working well with Wraiths as well (Furious Charge/hit and Run anyone?)
The Necrons seem to work off which HQ you take, especially in combinations of HQ.
Imotekh and Orikan can shut armies down.
Imotekh and Zahndrekh compliment each other with Zahndrekh giving Night Vision to a unit or even Furious Charge to some Wraith, which will be in abundance in a Imotekh list. The Phased Reinforcement works well with the Bloodswarm Nanoscarabs.
Deep Strike in a unit of Flayed Ones next to a unit in your opponents turn and watch your opponent either waste a turn of shooting against them or ignore them and risk losing a unit the next turn. I've seen this lead Death Company around the board and turn games around when the opponent makes the wrong choice of who to shoot.
azgrim wrote:I have recently been playing with necrons and have come to some interesting conclusions.
I have been running Imotekh and a Ccb lord as my hqs but im having a hard time justifying the points for Imotekh.He can consistently get 3-4 turns of night fighting in which is nice for preventing my immortals in the back from getting shot but seems to do nothing for wraiths after a few turns, his lighting is also pretty underwhelming .So he is really only good for going first and getting in 1-2 more turns of nightfight Vs two teks. Im not sure what all the hype is about him maybe i have missed something.
I think Imotekh only works in very specific lists. If your army has many units which want to shoot outside rapid fire range he is not a great choice. He works best in assault heavy lists but i dont rate him in a "wraith wing" type list because you wont need Night fighting for more than two turns due to the wraiths speed - a pair of pulses will be more reliable/cheaper. He might work in a scarab farm list where you want to spend a couple of turns producing scarabs before rushing forward but IMO he is very overrated.
Ok, let's do the math - Imotekh has: overlord 90, weave 15, shifter 45, phaeron 20, special staff 10, rough equivalent of three solar pulses 3x20 = 240 pts
Plus, he lets you steal the initiative on 4+. How many points do you think this is worth? I'd say at least 50 pts.
His lightning is devastating against MSU and all light armor. He will punish for about 3 turns, likely 4 if you buy him a 40 pt chronotek. How many points is that? I think it is worth about the cost of a manticore or two hydras, so ~160 pts.
He also has a couple of other abilities like the bloodswarm and the humiliating defeat, which does not come up usually, so let's just ignore that.
So, he gives you more than 240+50+160=450 pts worth of value and he costs 225 pts. That is a 50% discount. What more do you want? How is he overrated?
Yes, he impedes his own shooting, so don't take him in a shooty list, but he is absolutely awesome in CC lists. He works very well with wraithwings and scarab farms, and their hybrids.
Regarding wraithwings just needing 2 pulseteks, I will just say that you are wrong at least 33% of the time. Dawn of war pretty much guarantees you will not be assaulting before turn 3. Even then, the wraithwing is best used as a flanker mopping up the opponent's deployment from the side, to prevent being outnumbered and to disallow full concentration of fire. So even then, nightfighting is of big help.
I don't think Imotekh works well with anything but some sort of a scarab/spyder setup. And he doesn't work well at lower point values. And he's really only stellar against MSU. The problem with using him in a Wraithwing is that the Wraiths will usually get stuck in early, before he's had time to attrit. Have to avoid that, you'll get defeated in detail. You need to be patient with him. Frankly, his playstyle is methodical, and ideally his lists should avoid engaging at all until mid-game. (I settled on him mostly because I wanted to prove he *could* be successful, most early reviews were that he wasn't competitive.) Azgrim, are you playing at 2K points? Your experiences actually match my early ones, until I started using my CCB and solitary Wraith unit as backfield support. (Current list has 2xSpyder 1xAB, 2xScarab 1xWraith HS/FA slot allocation.)
Destroyers are underrated. A shooty Solar Pulse list has a lot of advantages. Solar Pules are a flat-out must in anything but an Imotekh list, and they're really the most flexible night-fight equipment b/c YOU can still fire at full range. If you're going to take Zandrekh you need a good shooting AT unit for him to buff early game, Destroyers are probably the best choice.
I think the important thing to realize with our codex is that our army is hard to play. It's very timing-dependent. Moreso than most, we have to get everything there at the same time, ie, J2Y's MTO theory. This is true with either an offensive or defensive list. "getting there" means applying combat force, ie, having our 36" stuffs and 24" stuffs in firing position at the same time our CC stuffs comes into assault range - hopefully while we've still got some night cover. If they engage piecemeal they'll die piecemeal - especially the CC dudes.
I'd add to that the correct application of Crypteks too.
There is a Cryptek for every squad type that can take them and a good list should take full advantage of this.
But as I've said before about Destroyers, they are a Glass Cannon. High firepower, but they suffer greatly from being one wound 40 point targets. 60 if Heavy.
Puscifer wrote:But as I've said before about Destroyers, they are a Glass Cannon. High firepower, but they suffer greatly from being one wound 40 point targets. 60 if Heavy.
The reason Destroyers are still a valid choice is that they have enough range to avoid return fire at night. Both they and our Lanceteks (basically shorter ranged ML substitutes) are overpriced for the same effect other armies get. However, we have Solar Pulse night fight. Our ranged AT is more effective because if they have enough range to stay out of night sight distance (ie, searchlight distance), they can count on getting at least one, possibly two turns of firing where the enemy can't reply. So, they're more powerful than their statline.
They can be, obviously they're overpriced (and/or underprotected) by themselves - but the way Praxiss used them in his BATFG battle, w/Tank Hunter and perhaps a bit more standoff (have to eyeball 30-36") they're basically invulnerable. I'm thinking of switching to a "kawabungaaa!" list myself, it's basically a MTO theory after that - by the time the Solar Pulses run out he'll be staring down the barrell of CCB's, Wraiths and/or Scarabs etc, might be too busy to plonk them then.
1st two turns, snipe
Thereafter, support CC units who should be soaking up return fire
Profit! (maybe?)
disclaimer: this is totally unproven theoryhammer and could get your ass shot up like a colander. Void where prohibited.
Puscifer wrote:Well the glaring weakness of the Necron list is dedicated anti tank and HD seem the way forward. I'm just not convinced.
Anybody tried a Cronzilla list?
I'm facing one tonight with Draigowing.
They're non dedicated AT isn't half bad though, a good 66% of your army is gonna have the Gauss special rule, not as amazing as it was back in 4th but if the 6th rumors are true about hull points and being and to glace vehicles to death again then that'd explain our shaky dedicated AT
PraxissI wrote: can see him working well with Wraiths as well (Furious Charge/hit and Run anyone?)
The problem is, Hit and Run requires an initiative roll, you can't rely on making a roll below your init value, when your init is 2!
Ah, was not aware of the Initiative test part (have never actually used Hit and Run).
Puscifer wrote:Maybe I haven't read that right, but does the Pulse = a one way Night Fight?
If so, then yeah Heavy Destroyers are worth it.
Randall, are you suggesting that for 60 pts, HD are worth it?
As i understand it the Solar Pulse works for one Player Turn. So, lets assume you get first turn....
Necron turn - move shoot - yay.
Enemy Turn (you pop your solar pulse) - night fighting = less shooty damage
Necron Turn - (night fighting ends) - normal shooting for you!
Enemy Turn (pop seond solar pulse) - even less shooty damage
All the while you are moving up your short ranged shooty units and CC units under cover of darkness. OR leaving your Heavy Destroyers at max range to make then nigh-impossible to hit (2D6x3 means a max range of 36" so they woudl have to roll double 6's to hit a max ranged Heavy-D)
It's a horrible game to play as Draigowing. First of all it has tons of troops to deal with and they are backed up by EIGHT MC. Top that off with Imotekh causing havoc with the storm and I was in big trouble from turn one.
I lost my Dreadknight on Turn 2 to Lord of Fire when I used the Incinerator on one of the Scarab units.
All in all this is an army that has multiple targets that have to be prioritised, otherwise you just lose horribly. Yes, I lost horribly.
It didn't realise until after the game that this Necron army was top of the leader board for most territory gained. Undefeated in 12 games.
The army seems to have basically swapped out Wraiths for C'Tans as assault elements. This frees up FA slots which he can fill with Scarabs, and he takes combat powers, but C'Tan aren't usually viewed as "combat" MC's due to their lack of defense. (Basically 4+/4++ iirc)
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't play with assault C'Tans or against Dreadknights, but one on one a baseline Dreadknight will defeat a baseline C'Tan most of the time, for fewer points. But this army also has a deluge of support CC elements. (Some sort of mediocre, sure Spyders are MC's but they're mostly bulk when compared to things like Dreadknights or C'Tan.)
Imotekh also doesn't have the normal Chronometron, heck the army doesn't have a Cryptek in it, that's gotta piss off the local Cryptek union. I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in CC by turn 2 anyway.
You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.
As i understand it the Solar Pulse works for one Player Turn. So, lets assume you get first turn....
Necron turn - move shoot - yay.
Enemy Turn (you pop your solar pulse) - night fighting = less shooty damage
Necron Turn - (night fighting ends) - normal shooting for you!
Enemy Turn (pop seond solar pulse) - even less shooty damage
This. The necrons dont have a huge amount of long range firepower but what they do have is made much stronger with solar pulses.
When considering if I can outshoot an oponent at range it often goes like this;
Turn 1: I have a Lance/crono court, an extra Lance-tek somewhere and 3 Heavy Ds, opponent has...nothing.
Turn 2: I have a Lance/crono court, an extra Lance-tek somewhere and 3 Heavy Ds, opponent has...nothing.
Night-fight multiplies CC effectiveness too. (Captain Obvious time.) Especially against shooty lists with the initiative. (alpha strike == very difficult.)
This is one of the reasons when J2Y and Stelek are going at it, I tend to discount Stelek's objections about Wraiths as "yeah, but..." He doesn't take into account army wide synergy multipliers or, for that matter, weight movement enough.
The army seems to have basically swapped out Wraiths for C'Tans as assault elements. This frees up FA slots which he can fill with Scarabs, and he takes combat powers, but C'Tan aren't usually viewed as "combat" MC's due to their lack of defense. (Basically 4+/4++ iirc)
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't play with assault C'Tans or against Dreadknights, but one on one a baseline Dreadknight will defeat a baseline C'Tan most of the time, for fewer points. But this army also has a deluge of support CC elements. (Some sort of mediocre, sure Spyders are MC's but they're mostly bulk when compared to things like Dreadknights or C'Tan.)
Imotekh also doesn't have the normal Chronometron, heck the army doesn't have a Cryptek in it, that's gotta piss off the local Cryptek union. I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in CC by turn 2 anyway.
You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.
This guy has destroyed every list he's come across. Ork swarm, Nid swarm, Draigowing, SW Missile Spam. SW and IG gave him a couple of issues, but on one turn against both armies, he rolled like a God for the lightning and destroyed an insane amount of stuff which basically won him the game. I'd say he got lucky on those two occasions, but otherwise his army it pretty solid.
I gotta agree, this is a really weird list.
Just by looking at it, there are some things that really don't make as much tactical sense... but if it's really doing that well, I guess there's something there that we must be missing?
Randall Turner wrote:You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.
This guy has destroyed every list he's come across. Ork swarm, Nid swarm, Draigowing, SW Missile Spam. SW and IG gave him a couple of issues, but on one turn against both armies, he rolled like a God for the lightning and destroyed an insane amount of stuff which basically won him the game. I'd say he got lucky on those two occasions, but otherwise his army it pretty solid.
Imotekh can win any one game for you. Especially against IG, they tend to have a lot of targets, and especially at 2K points, which it looks like you're playing. (It's just impossible to know when he'll show up! ) A typical GK list with it's "good" long range shooting and "good" 24" shooting is usually the Kryptonite for Necrons. I generally tell GK players "if you're careful, you'll win". A foot list against MC's though, not sure.
I gotta agree, this is a really weird list.
Just by looking at it, there are some things that really don't make as much tactical sense... but if it's really doing that well, I guess there's something there that we must be missing?
Maybe the list works because of the flexibility to switch tactics? Its got a packet load of shooting from the warrior and immortal blobs, AT from the scarabs and CC from the MC (presumably to take advantage of the no armour saves? So, with Imo, you move up the warrior blobs centre board, each side and control the 24" circle from there (anvil) then circle the MC around the outside and hammer the opp into the anvil. With such large units, DS would be a bit tricky for an Opp because he can spread way out?
How does he normally play the list? In particular, how does he manage to keep CC units away from the warriors? With no orb and no arks, got to think they would be running off the board every game.
The army seems to have basically swapped out Wraiths for C'Tans as assault elements. This frees up FA slots which he can fill with Scarabs, and he takes combat powers, but C'Tan aren't usually viewed as "combat" MC's due to their lack of defense. (Basically 4+/4++ iirc)
Correct me if I'm wrong, as I don't play with assault C'Tans or against Dreadknights, but one on one a baseline Dreadknight will defeat a baseline C'Tan most of the time, for fewer points. But this army also has a deluge of support CC elements. (Some sort of mediocre, sure Spyders are MC's but they're mostly bulk when compared to things like Dreadknights or C'Tan.)
Imotekh also doesn't have the normal Chronometron, heck the army doesn't have a Cryptek in it, that's gotta piss off the local Cryptek union. I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in CC by turn 2 anyway.
You say this army is undefeated? I'd think it would be vulnerable to a good midrange shooty army, ie, non-Draigo GK lists.
Ok, you're wrong
Seriously though, base for base C'tan are about the strongest CCMC in the game, at least against other MCs (outside of Apocc etc), largly due to the fact they have an Invlun where most MCs don't, higher Strength and higher Toughness, and that's just taking their base stat line. Add in Gaze of Death and (insert cool toy here) and they become absolute Monstorrrrish Creatures. The problems that plague the C'tan are getting into CC, they perform quite admirably once they get there.
To the OP, other posters have touched on this rather well but don't make the mistake of thinking your just buying Imothek for night fighting and lightning pewpew. His defensive capabilities and Phaeron make him a huge squad multiplier for a unit of Warriors, the key here is using them. He should always eat the first bullet of every volley until getting to one wound, and even still once NF and lightning expiring. 2+/3++ with a chrono is frikken nails. Honestly Imo, 15 to 20 Warriors, and a Chrono were such a staple for my lists I had to force myself to stop taking them awhile to give the other HQs some love.
I've researched the hell out of this, to what works and what doesn't and what suits my play style. I'm posting this here as no one is commenting on my post in Army Lists - Sorry... I expect to be repremanded for my sins.
I think it's got plenty of Firepower and will keep my opponents away, but I think that I'm low on troops. I've split the Scarab units up as I believe it will be more difficult to remove 2 units, rather than 1 big one, but I'm not convinced of their effectiveness in this list.
I think it has quite a lot of AV13, which can always help against some armies.
This is what I can make out of the models that I have and I won't be able to get anymore for quite sometime thanks to the hike. Debating wether to work a Destructiontek with an Orb in there.
Seriously though, base for base C'tan are about the strongest CCMC in the game, at least against other MCs (outside of Apocc etc), largly due to the fact they have an Invlun where most MCs don't, higher Strength and higher Toughness, and that's just taking their base stat line. Add in Gaze of Death and (insert cool toy here) and they become absolute Monstorrrrish Creatures. The problems that plague the C'tan are getting into CC, they perform quite admirably once they get there.
LOL and that's fine, trying to figure out if I should be taking them more often.
I didn't mean to imply that 4+/4++ edit: against MC/PW etc. was bad once in CC, for example the Dreadknight is only 2+/5++ and that first number is irrelevent. Except where it isn't, right? And that's sort of the problem I have with them, as you say - "once they get there". But a 250pt model that lets every shooting wound through its save on a coin flip just doesn't last for me, whereas that silly Dreadknight virtually ignores every shooting attack except Lascannons. Toughness helps - but there's no difference between T6 and T7 when you're eating volume S4 infantry fire. (hmmm... boy, it sure does everywhere else, though, doesn't it.) So, let's see..
Dreadknight is a dual purpose, ranged/CC war machine.
C'Tan is an "in your face" CC beatstick that sorta needs to be in CC for protection. (right? maybe?)
I'm going to have to just kit one out with something besides WW and throw it out there.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Puscifer wrote:This is what I can make out of the models that I have and I won't be able to get anymore for quite sometime thanks to the hike. Debating wether to work a Destructiontek with an Orb in there.
So... How well will this do taking on all comers?
I should work out a painting deal with you, in the time >> money crunch now. Puscifer, what's your strategy? Oh - and I think posting a list and associated tactics in "tactics" is fine, can't really do one w/o the other.
My plan is to slow my opponents movement with Orikan T1 and from T2 onwards using the staves from the Crypteks, while shooting at the units under a withering hail of fire.
I'm considering not taking the CCB on the Overlord. It just doesn't work well enough without support from Wraith.
That should free up points for some extra warriors and a Lancetek with Orb.
Going to drop some Scarabs too. They are good, but not good in this list IMO.
I may not understand the list. First obvious thing - how does it handle a long range shooty list? Everything's 24" range and there's no Solar Pulses. A Doomsday Ark is okay, but he's the only long range threat, right? Everything else in our list here will have to move forward into contact, which will put them at risk during the approach.
Basically if we're going Tremorcron there has to be some reason for them to move and take the dangerous terrain tests. A pure CC oppoent, welp, okay - he has to move regardless, maybe it'll work out. I think if they did close, they'd eat us up. I don't see why an IG gunline wouldn't just sit there, possibly even outside the range of the tremorteks (not that it'll matter), and shoot us to pieces.
Well shoot, I see why you made the list you did. That's fine, you've got what you've got. So, just designate a couple crypteks as Pulseteks, and you can go firepower-centric. The Stalkers and AB's will certainly put a hurt on any searchlighting transports. If you can fight defensively with the troops and keep them in difficult terrain cover, CC armies will have to take that dangerous terrain check. If the Tremorteks are within their 36" range they can force his closing medium range stuffs and/or deathstars to take the DT checks. Try and see!
You'll want to find a way to capitalize as much as possible on immotek's presence if you want to use him instead of a barge lord.
Barge Lords are really good, and solar pulses are much easier to work around than Immotek for the standard necron army, so you'll have to put some thought into this.
RE: Destroyers They compete for a handy slot, feel like they cost a bit too much, and come in fragile, wastefully sized units. I can see why people don't think about them very often. On the plus side they kite threats like nobody's business when combined with solar pulses, and tend to find weaknesses very easily, or force your opponent to play more conservatively. You might also note they are now jump infantry, and can march into cover now. You'll also find that little groups of heavy destroyers in cover are not often deemed worthy of committing firepower toward, if you use their mobility to make it uncomfortable for your opponent. They also seem to make good use of stalker linking.
RE: Wraiths I can tell you I know your pain, from when I've used them in higher point value games. Boy can they end up in anticlimactic fights forever. They are also usually the only thing a necron army has that is worth sending into melee (where as the same is not true for other armies). You'll be sitting there, trying up some assault marines with silly FNP until unit number 2 makes it's way in, other examples abound. The can fight dedicated CC units, they can survive a while, but they don't tend to have the reliable punch, to really win out without some decent support. They can win pretty well against OK or countercharge CC units, but it's usually not with the cleanliness you'd like. I suggest, if you want to run wraiths, run a bundle, or have something that is otherwise contributing to your force, that is capable of supporting wraiths in melee.
If you have an overlord that's hopped from it's barge, it can lend a hand to the poor indestructible wraiths.
I hear great things about having a unit of spyders to support a unit of scarabs, and 2 maxed wraith units. The spyders make it to the fights eventually and love the whip coils. I hate having too much CC anti-tank though.
What I'm really jazzed about at the moment, is the thought of 2 decked out wraith units working with a scoring hammer that consists of 8 warriors, 2 lords with MSS and WS in a ghost ark. Neither of those bad boys can be targeted, they charge out of an av13 skimmer that can provide blocking and regenerates their buffer each turn. When you've got 2 very mobile CC options also threatening and providing disruption alongside this pseudo rock, I can see you having a lot fewer of the issues involved in using a CC pseudo rock.
RE: Stalkers I don't have enough experience with them yet, but that's because I have trouble justifying them in lists that don't run a lot of MSU high strength fire. After that, I'd want to also have a lot of yet-to-be-twin-linked tesla fire laying around and that sounds like a very specific army to me.
IMO, Destroyers are just not worth it. They are expensive (points and in monetary terms) and are surprisingly fragile.
They may be getting "fixed" in 6th ed with their PE being used in shooting, but even this changes nothing.
HD are the same, their cost outweighs their usefulness.
Wraith are useful. End of story. One of the best combat units in the game, but they still must have a list built around them as Necrons are not a CC army. One unit is useable in most lists.
Stalkers are one of those units that need to be supported properly. Two should always be taken, never one. Their weapon systems are somewhat... Odd. AI with the particle weapon seems like a good choice, but ultimately doesn't support it's Targeting Rules. TLHGC is great for long range, which Necrons do lack in some areas, but this is deemed inferior to the Heat Ray for AT firepower. Heat Ray is also a competent AI weapon up close, but it's party piece is the 2 shot Multi Melta. Swings and rounabouts on weapon choice. Take what you feel is the right weapon for your army.
Now... We know that mixing Orikan with an army of mostly 24" weaponry is a recipe for disaster. We ideally need two pulses (which means ditching Orikan all together) or Imotekh. Taking Imotekh is probably a better idea as you can cause havoc with lightning while moving up under the cover of night. I've heard of people taking a Chronometron to the ball and being able to re-roll the night roll for Imotekh or the Hulk Up roll for Orikan. Not seen this before, so I can't comment.
Another guy to think of with the Tremorcron army is Zahndrekh. He is really useful in adding game changing rules to precise situations, but again, we would only have one pulse, which might not be enough in game to get into range.
Necrons are a tricky army to use. They remind me of a mix of Tau and Eldar. Surgical Strike potential, with the ability to drop the hammer when needed.
My problem ATM is this...
Drop Orikan and go 2 Overlords or go Orikan/Imotekh or Orikan/Zahndrekh/Obyron*.
*If points allow.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Actually, looking at my list of stuff... Orikan isn't the best idea in a takes all comers list.
He works for one turn, then is subpar.
A combo of two Overlords, be it SC or not, is better.
2 Pulseteks are going to be mandatory while my army gets in range.
My T1, move up, maybe take a cheeky shot with Doomsday Ark.
Op T1, pop a pulse.
My T2, move up, maybe take some shots and maybe put his guys in DT.
Op T2, pop a pulse, watch him move if he has to and let the highlarity begin.
My T3, shoot to kill, profit.
Now...
Imotekh could work, Zahndrekh will work with him (so unfluffy) by taking away Night Vision and giving Night Vision to one of my units and Tank Hunter when it's needed.
I n my (admittedly limited) experience the Solar Pulses can be hti and miss, but when they work they can be a game changer. i woudl rather take them and them do nothing than risk not using them at all.
I am big fan of Destroyers. I have tried using mixed squads and units of 3 heavies and they have not failed to deliver yet. They have the range to stay out of CC and they are pretty tough (although an invul or a 2+ save woudl be nice).
i think their use depends a lot on what armies you face. I tend to play against primarily MEQ/TEQ armies, so havign AP3 and Ap2 gusn with decent range is a big plus for me. Also if you use Zahndrekh they can becoem essentially S10, which makes them a lot more reliable.
if it helps (probably not) here is list i am looking at for a friednly tourney in a coupe of weeks:
Zahndrekh
Anrakyr - CCB 2 Pulse Teks with lances
5 Warriors - Ghost Ark
5 Warriors
10 Warriors
10 Tesla Immortals
6 Scarabs
3 Heavy Destroyers
2 Annihilation Barges
With those 2 HQs i can do a fair bit of funky stuff (including give my immortals FC and Counter Attach, take over an enemy tank within 18", take any one of a load of USRs off an enemy unit, apply one of those same USRs to one of my units, and cause 2 turns of nightfighting for my opponent.
my only concern is it's a bit light on troops bodies and scarabs compared to what i normally take.
Necrons biggest weakness, IMO, is it is difficult finding a sweet spot between workable troops choices and fitting in the awesome stuff we need for winning games.
Do we go MSU and fit in as much utility with Crypteks or do we go with blobs or medium sized squads?
i think it again depends on thegame. You can field MSU and concentrate fire. The bonus of this is that if (when) they get charged and swept, you dont lose a big chunk of your army.
The downside is that to use all the survivability options you woudl need more Ghost Arks, Res orbs etc etc.
I try to go for a mix. A large(ish) unti to move up with my Ark, and a smaller unit to leave on the hoem objective. if i put a res orb lord with the hom guard they are more survivable, but also, as the lord has everliving. he might be able to keep poppping up aftyer every assault phase to re-contest the objective. Annoying much?
In my games I'm leaning more to the edges of the ranges for warriors. So it's either 5 + cryptek or 15-20. 10 warriors just seem to be meh, and if I'm going to add a phaeron and or lord I'd prefer more bodies.
Immortals my favourite number is 10, but often find I end up with 8 for points reasons, which seems perfectly acceptable.
Praxiss, in answer to your concern about troops numbers in your friendly list, I'd say you have too many as opposed to not enough. In particular, that 10 warrior group without a phaeron seems like a waste.
Why not think about using the 130 pts for a stormtek for the Eternals and another anni barge?
Dont have any more Anni Barges (already managed to sneak 3 past the wife!).
I have taken Storm Teks in every other list i have played and they have NEVER performed (not as in dissappointign, as in never do anything at all). i dont know if people see the model and are scared to charge them or what. I have never fired off a lightngin field and never managaed to get with 12" of a tank to use the voltaic staff.
yeah, weird i know. of course this game is gogin to be the one where my units all get charged and i'll be left wishing i had a StormTek.
Hey Ho. In the big points cut, he was the first to. /sniff.
is it overkill/a bad idea to take 2 SCs in a 1500 point game? i think they both support the army and bring their own flavour to things. plus they both give a lot of stuff for free (Anrakyr in a barge is only 30 points more than an overlord in a barge)
Praxiss wrote:In my case: Zahndrekh and Anrakyr. Anraykr will be in a CCB.
If you want to be really coo, you can buy 3! Zahndrekh can buy a CCB, but you'll find a very limited number of situations where that is very intelligent. You do however want as many warscythes in CCB as possible, because it may well be the best thing you can do. Now if you read the qualificiations on the CCB's transport ability, it doesn't say only an overlord can hop in, it can carry any independent character. So, if you are dead set at running zandrekh in an army (for whatever reason, I've never found his bonuses worth his huge cost and inability to handle a barge or combat alone) you can bring his buddy along, without using a slot and pop him into a flying armchair and do what all the cool necron armies are doing.
Really, I tend to have trouble figuring out when Ankyr the traveller is worth it. His ability, apparently, no longer works out of a ccb for some reason and what is counter attack and furious charge really worth on a squad of 17 point shooty guys? I don't think it's enough to dissuade charges, and beefing it up with things like gaze of flame, a necron lord or lightning shield make for a lot of points when considered against the 50-65 points more you are paying for ankyr.
As I've said, I've never really had a time I wanted to play Zandy particularly much. Maybe if he were a phaeron... I just don't know when removing a USR or gaining one is worth that many points, in that, you end up fielding a real compromise of a unit because of him and he costs more than an overlord in a CCB already. together they come out to 350, without barges, and their special rules demand more purchases to play around them, 2 minimum Bargelords is 360, which do you feel like is more worth a quarter of your armies points? I'm not trying to be an ass, but I think it's a question you should ask yourself before hoping onto the special character train in necrons. Also: Do I really need 2 courts at 1500?
I'd be really happy if someone tried the 3 hq 2 barges way of playing but that is already 670 points! What fun!
Zandrekh is great utility that doesn't need to be frontline. Obyron taking his ride is Priceless as he can really bring the hurt down.
Anrakyr is not great, but he can have moments of sheer awesome... I hear taking over a TITAN is in this summer. Apocalypse games are just broken with Anrakyr.
Zahndrekh has little to offer Anrakyr, so I personally wouldn't bother with the latter.
Zahndrekh works well with:
Imotekh (unfluffy). Giving a unit Night Vision is pretty kool.
Orikan. Giving one of those long range weapons Tank Hunter is really good. His other skills all have purpose here too.
Any basic Overlord. Well yeah.
Obyron. Senile old fart has to have a wise executioner to TCB on the front line.
Lords surf around slicing tanks and drawing fire while the 5 man squad sits on home obj and keeps going to ground. One ten man squad is a backup for the 5 man squad and purely for capping objectives, whilst the other 2 squads use VoD to get up close and rapid fire/contest/hold enemy objectives. The overlords are beastly in CC, between the str7 power weapon and t5 2+3++ and MSS they cause major problems when they hit a squad.
Maybe not the most competitive but definitely worth a try if you have the models for it.
The more I look at the Necron Army List, the more I see a lack of anti tank and the more I see of potential 6th ed changes that are going to make Necrons utterly obscene.
Just wait until 6th ed when we can potentially be glancing vehicles to death. If the hull point rules are true that is.
I really don't see any lack of anti-tank. Our Heavy support choices are brimming with options and then we can have Crypteks threaded throughout squads to give us even more. Then Night Scythes for those Troops can zoom ahead and get side/rear shots with a decent chance of penning AV11. That's not even mentioning CC Barges or Wraiths.
Praxiss wrote:In my case: Zahndrekh and Anrakyr. Anraykr will be in a CCB.
I find zahndrek is useful for tank hunters, furious charge, counter attack and stealth powers. Normally, I'd focus on the immortals with FC and CA, but you already have both of those because they are eternals. I still think that zahndrek will add his points using tank hunters and stealth though.
However, if you dropped zahndrek and could squeeze in an OL with a barge, that would be a viable alternative. That would almost require a list rewrite though.
I play a list similar to yours sometimes, but I have more lanceteks and crypteks because I don't have destroyers. It's a solid, fun list!
I tried the heavy gauss cannon on my stalkers, however it is hard as hell to get passed that AP1 and two shots multi-melta. The other thing is that if you are running your two solar pulses, they are going to be getting within 30 of your army, making the extra range pointless, and the ability to get two shots through is clutch. I used to believe in the heavy gauss until I tested them. gaining 30 points in a list that is fighting for 5 is amazing.
Solar Pulse is greater than Immotek, for one its a hell of a alot cheaper, two its only night fight for your opponent. Immo is always night fight which blows for a shoot list.
I play tested zand and two pulses yesterday had was pretty happy.I played against a GK with 6 rhinos full of dudes and 3 psydreads just for reference.
zand's ability to take away USR was useless in this game but I could see it work in other lists with DCA ,SW,BA,or orks.
First thing was the lack of night fight for me allowed my shooting to blast away marines and rhinos without problems.
Second i used hit and run on my c'tan which helped me get out of tarpits then gave him Furious Charge to attack something else at I5 S8. These are important numbers since i can snipe t4 ICs and will strike first in most cases.
Another thing ive been thinking about is adding a res orb to my CCB lord.I run mine with scythe,2+,3++,MSS he is pretty solid but I like to play him very aggressive he tends to sweep something,get blown up then gets stuck in CC.Yesterday i rolled a 4 for his EL and thought if only i had an orb im just not sure if its worth the 30pts on a gamble.
Puscifer wrote:I've noticed a lot of players using CCB Hyper Aggressively and it doesn't work.
What do you mean it didn't work? It died too fast? It didn't open up vehicles? Imho, if a CCB lives until T3 it either being used wrong or the opponent doesn't prioritise properly. Like other units, it has a purpose and if you use it for that purpose it's gold, otherwise it is not.
Puscifer wrote:Tbh, while I can see the CCB being quite a good tool, it's not great if it's not supported.
Depends on your purpose. If the role of the CCB in the army is to be a distraction and stop mech early in the game, well it doesn't need support. Anything else, it does. If you want it around in T4, probably the wrong unit.
Puscifer wrote:In Shooty armies, it's near useless.
In Mixed and CC armies it's good.
In low point games using Barge Spam, it's golden.
Personally, I don't like CCB. It takes a support HQ away from where it is needed most - with the rank and file.
I don't entirely agree. In shooty armies it may not be appropriate if there is a big block of gauss which needs a phaeron. In which case, take 2 hq and use one anyway! . Any shooty armies with scarabs, stalkers or wraiths can benefit from a CCB to distract while you get in range.
It didn't work because the player controlling it just didn't use it right. They did sweep over units, they then got out, charged a vehicle, destroyed it and then got eaten by the squad inside. A 200 point unit that earnt 50 or so points back.
I wouldn't call that great. I've seen that happen a lot.
It sounds like a suicide unit and plays like one from what I've seen.
MarkCron wrote:What do you mean it didn't work? It died too fast? It didn't open up vehicles? Imho, if a CCB lives until T3 it either being used wrong or the opponent doesn't prioritise properly. Like other units, it has a purpose and if you use it for that purpose it's gold, otherwise it is not.
Well, that's not necessarily true. You could be fighting defensively. A standard opening gambit I use is to move my first Scarab unit up into area cover somewhere in the middle of the table. That establishes a 24" radius "danger zone", and forces the opponent to searchlight it and at least make it go to ground. With a 2+ cover save and Spyders linked with a conga-line (Scarabs still at least 50% in cover) the only way to winkle it out is to move up flamers or CC infantry. This takes time. Meanwhile I'm pot-shotting the searchlight rhinos, spawning more scarabs, and letting the lightning do it's thing. My CCB is always back - where the opponent either can't see it at all or can't dependably spotlight it. It's not uncommon for my CCB to make its first attack on turn three, when we "loose the hounds".
Basically because we have high-survivability Scarabs and night-fight range management, we can sacrifice a fairly cheap, fairly dangerous unit to force the opponent to grind for a bit.
If he blows by with a bunch of transports? Well, then he can't fire or spotlight ('cause there's MORE scarabs back there, he daren't slow down) and he's moving into easy CCB sweep range and Spyder charge range, and yeah, it'll turn into a furball.
Taking Randalls point a step further there are other situations where a CCB won't be targeted simply because it isn't the biggest threat. The list I use at 1850 has 15 Wraiths (3x 5), 2 CC Barges and 3 Doom Scythes. Turn 1 (in most cases) I go full throttle with everything. Now let your opponent decide what to aim at.
And never disembark from a CC Barge unless there is a damn good reason to.
Puscifer wrote:It didn't work because the player controlling it just didn't use it right. They did sweep over units, they then got out, charged a vehicle, destroyed it and then got eaten by the squad inside. A 200 point unit that earnt 50 or so points back.
I wouldn't call that great. I've seen that happen a lot.
It sounds like a suicide unit and plays like one from what I've seen.
Agreed. Thing is, that isn't a fault of a hyper aggressive strategy or the CCB - that's just bad tactics. It's the same thing as running scarabs up the board without cover and outrunning your supporting spyders.
Randall Turner wrote:
MarkCron wrote:What do you mean it didn't work? It died too fast? It didn't open up vehicles? Imho, if a CCB lives until T3 it either being used wrong or the opponent doesn't prioritise properly. Like other units, it has a purpose and if you use it for that purpose it's gold, otherwise it is not.
Well, that's not necessarily true. You could be fighting defensively. A standard opening gambit I use is to move my first Scarab unit up into area cover somewhere in the middle of the table. That establishes a 24" radius "danger zone", and forces the opponent to searchlight it and at least make it go to ground. With a 2+ cover save and Spyders linked with a conga-line (Scarabs still at least 50% in cover) the only way to winkle it out is to move up flamers or CC infantry. This takes time. Meanwhile I'm pot-shotting the searchlight rhinos, spawning more scarabs, and letting the lightning do it's thing. My CCB is always back - where the opponent either can't see it at all or can't dependably spotlight it. It's not uncommon for my CCB to make its first attack on turn three, when we "loose the hounds".
Basically because we have high-survivability Scarabs and night-fight range management, we can sacrifice a fairly cheap, fairly dangerous unit to force the opponent to grind for a bit.
If he blows by with a bunch of transports? Well, then he can't fire or spotlight ('cause there's MORE scarabs back there, he daren't slow down) and he's moving into easy CCB sweep range and Spyder charge range, and yeah, it'll turn into a furball.
Interesting, i've never considered doing that, because for me the idea of the CCB is to open up the vehicles and kill their mobility straight up. In your description, why is the investment of 195 points (I'm assuming you run the overlord light, with only scythe and MSS) the best use of those 195 points? It seems to me that by the time you get to turn 3 you've lost 2 turns sweeping vehicles, plus the distraction effect. If there is a furball T3, a couple of extra spyders, anni barges or even another 10 immortals would be more helpful?
Lukus83 wrote:Taking Randalls point a step further there are other situations where a CCB won't be targeted simply because it isn't the biggest threat. The list I use at 1850 has 15 Wraiths (3x 5), 2 CC Barges and 3 Doom Scythes. Turn 1 (in most cases) I go full throttle with everything. Now let your opponent decide what to aim at.
Fair point. My comment was a bit generalistic and if you overload with threats (i.e. wraiths) the opp should prioritise those. In that case, the opp will have a problem with cans being opened in the movement phase and wraith snacking on the tasty contents. Do you run 2 CCB?
Lukus83 wrote:And never disembark from a CC Barge unless there is a damn good reason to.
Amen. I'm going to put that comment into my signature if its ok with you.
MarkCron wrote:Interesting, i've never considered doing that, because for me the idea of the CCB is to open up the vehicles and kill their mobility straight up. In your description, why is the investment of 195 points (I'm assuming you run the overlord light, with only scythe and MSS) the best use of those 195 points? It seems to me that by the time you get to turn 3 you've lost 2 turns sweeping vehicles, plus the distraction effect. If there is a furball T3, a couple of extra spyders, anni barges or even another 10 immortals would be more helpful?
Well, obviously if I could buy more Spyders or AB's I would, lol. I think we can assume all HS slots are full on just about all Necron lists.
Aside from AB's I don't know of anything more cost-effective in the Necron codex than a CCB. Well, maybe Spyders and Wraiths and Scarabs, all full up, thank you very much. Next obvious thing is to invest in a CCB.
But to answer the question you're not asking and maybe should be - the reason I'm not in any rush to go out and whoop ass w/my CCB is that if I do, he dies. I don't want him to die, and my list philosophy isn't "Kawabungaaaa!", so I don't move him offensively early unless I feel he'll be targeted and focus-fired on anyway. Don't have to avoid all fire. Just focus-fire from his core fire-support. <shrug>
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Lukus83 wrote:And never disembark from a CC Barge unless there is a damn good reason to.
Add, and never slow down in a CCB until they shoot you out of the cab.
The list I use at 1850 has 15 Wraiths (3x 5), 2 CC Barges and 3 Doom Scythes.
Wraiths are amazing but without a doubt the most points efficient unit in the codex is the Spyder. 50 points for 3 T6 wounds that create a 15 point killing machine every turn for free. Spyders basically don't cost anything at all. The fact that they're monstrous creatures and en masse can be a huge assault deterrent against your objective holders is just a bonus.
A single Doom Scythe already effects the enemy deployment (he won't dare to build a parking lot or castle too tight) and gives you an instant death threat against T5. The Doom Scythe gives something invaluable to the army but it's not a unit to be spammed both because of its fragility and prohibitive points cost but most importantly the strong competition for the same slots. I'm happy to hear if your setup is working for you, but the way I run the Necrons is 2x5 Wraiths, a unit of 6 Scarabs, 2x3 Spyders and 1 Doom Scythe. A massive unit of Scarabs capable of multi-charging anything turn 2 gives the army much more than a single extra unit of Wraiths. Similarly, the Spyders are vastly more resilient and points efficient than the Doom Scythes. It's an extremely strong AAC setup.
I support those guys with Imotekh and a CCB scythe boss, or just two CCBs if named characters aren't allowed in the tournament in question. Troops is 4x5 Warriors in Night Scythes, or 3x5 in Night Scythes and a unit of 10 footslogging Immortals that group up with the Spyders towards the middle of the table. With Imotekh the only Cryptek needed is the re-roll guy.
You know, we're all running slight variants of the same army, yours is very close to mine. I go one more Scarab, one less Wraith (2 each 6xScarab, 1 each 6xWraith) and the AB for the DS (2 each 3xSpyder, 1 each AB) with Imotekh and a CCB plus typical troop/cryptek mix. The thing is I cannot keep a DoomScythe alive, and I made a conversion for it and everything, darn it.
Edit: I find the second Scarab unit is very useful, and one Wraith sweeping around the side is enough to keep him nervous. I like to threaten an initiative grab and Scarab alpha-strike, it needs two units to be credible.
Edit2: keep explaining myself. Basic "rule of 3's" on the scarabs, start out with 6 in each unit so I've got two auto-kills against a stationary vehicle or one auto-kill against a combat speed vehicle. (3 scarabs = 15 attacks = 7.5 AV loss, 7.5 AV pen = dead land raider.) If the opponent wins initiative, and then sets up right on the 12" line with at least two vehicles close enough together to multiassault with a scarab unit, you can alpha-strike them. If you seize, you can spawn 3 more scarabs in front of the original 6 putting you about 3" closer. Then all you have to roll for run distance is a 4+ . So, with two units you have a 75% chance one of them gets there. (more or less, a few more topological variables, really need him to clump on his startline.) And basically if I'm taking all those Spyders I'd like a backup Scarab unit to spawn into.
What keeps the scarabs alive versus enemy Wraiths? Nothing? If enemy wraiths can remove all the scarabs, then what's left to deal with enemy armor? Or are you planning on gaussing them to death? I'm not being judgmental here, just curious.
What keeps the scarabs alive versus enemy Wraiths? Nothing? If enemy wraiths can remove all the scarabs, then what's left to deal with enemy armor? Or are you planning on gaussing them to death? I'm not being judgmental here, just curious.
Noone has any idea what you're talking about of course. If an army has a death ray, ten Wraiths, six monstrous creatures, five twin-linked tesla destructors, a ton of small gauss fire, lightning strikes from Imotekh and a scythe CCB, why are we talking about the hypothetical scenario where the opponent destroys 18 bases of Scarabs on turn two? If they die, assuming you didn't suicide them, the enemy concentrated firepower on them that would've otherwise went elsewhere and caused significant damage. You use the rest of the army to table the opponent, and in no way were the Scarabs a requisite to a massacre victory, simply very points efficient to have.
DarthDiggler wrote:What keeps the scarabs alive versus enemy Wraiths? Nothing? If enemy wraiths can remove all the scarabs, then what's left to deal with enemy armor? Or are you planning on gaussing them to death? I'm not being judgmental here, just curious.
What usually keeps them alive against enemy Wraiths is the fact that hardly anyone runs Necrons. BUT EVEN IF THEY DID, what armor you talkin' bout willis? And why can't MY wraiths be stomping HIS scarabs? lol actually, now i'm tempted to go work up a blue-on-blue sheet but I'm optimized for GK razorspam, I'm probably screwed.
ps - hey Therion - he's right though, Wraiths are virtually perfect Scarab stompers, aren't they.
MarkCron wrote:Interesting, i've never considered doing that, because for me the idea of the CCB is to open up the vehicles and kill their mobility straight up. In your description, why is the investment of 195 points (I'm assuming you run the overlord light, with only scythe and MSS) the best use of those 195 points? It seems to me that by the time you get to turn 3 you've lost 2 turns sweeping vehicles, plus the distraction effect. If there is a furball T3, a couple of extra spyders, anni barges or even another 10 immortals would be more helpful?
Well, obviously if I could buy more Spyders or AB's I would, lol. I think we can assume all HS slots are full on just about all Necron lists.
Aside from AB's I don't know of anything more cost-effective in the Necron codex than a CCB. Well, maybe Spyders and Wraiths and Scarabs, all full up, thank you very much. Next obvious thing is to invest in a CCB.
You filled ALL your HS and FA slots, still have troops and have points left over for a CCB? Wow, can I see your list? Agree about the cost effectiveness of the CCB, my concern is that if they aren't used properly they are a waste of points. Always good to hear different viewpoints though.
Randall Turner wrote:But to answer the question you're not asking and maybe should be - the reason I'm not in any rush to go out and whoop ass w/my CCB is that if I do, he dies. I don't want him to die, and my list philosophy isn't "Kawabungaaaa!", so I don't move him offensively early unless I feel he'll be targeted and focus-fired on anyway. Don't have to avoid all fire. Just focus-fire from his core fire-support. <shrug>
I've seen this comment a lot. It's interesting that moving the CCB forward is associated with "kawabungaa!" or a hyper aggressive strategy. Take your example. If you moved the CCB up to the centreline of the board, say 12" to the side of the scarabs you would effectively have an AT threat window of 24" over 3/4 of the length of the board. Also, you have a 12" window where you can sweep out and then come back to the centreline. Sort of like a super jump infantry effect. If you were the opp where would you go? I'd go for the open flank, hitting the scarabs as I go. Herding the Opp into a known spot is always good!
I think part of the value of the CCB is the potential threat - the more of that in the opp area, the better. For clarity, I don't throw my CCB's into the enemy area without support of some sort but I do move them up past the centreline really quickly to constrain the opp moves. I don't think that is either hyper aggressive or Kawabunga, but my CCB still dies because of threat priority (as Lukas wrote, many targets, sort of an MTO effect). As I don't have wraiths, I'm using the CCB as a bit of a firesoak as well.
Randall Turner wrote:
Lukus83 wrote:And never disembark from a CC Barge unless there is a damn good reason to.
Add, and never slow down in a CCB until they shoot you out of the cab.
lols!! Nobody slows down in a CCB. Do they?
@Therion - I'm researching what to spend my hard earned on next and Spyders are coming up really high. Wraiths are really expensive in Oz, and spyders fit in better with the scarabs I have. Course, I'll probably end up buying both and the missus won't talk to me for a month. Oh well, more time to paint and play!!
DarthDiggler wrote:What keeps the scarabs alive versus enemy Wraiths? Nothing? If enemy wraiths can remove all the scarabs, then what's left to deal with enemy armor? Or are you planning on gaussing them to death? I'm not being judgmental here, just curious.
What usually keeps them alive against enemy Wraiths is the fact that hardly anyone runs Necrons. BUT EVEN IF THEY DID, what armor you talkin' bout willis? And why can't MY wraiths be stomping HIS scarabs? lol actually, now i'm tempted to go work up a blue-on-blue sheet but I'm optimized for GK razorspam, I'm probably screwed.
ps - hey Therion - he's right though, Wraiths are virtually perfect Scarab stompers, aren't they.
I can't believe I need to explain but I'll do it anyway so that there's no misunderstandings. We've got pretty much two thousand points of troops out there on both sides and if you run your single unit of Scarabs into fifteen Wraiths you've got noone to blame but yourself. The questions you need to ask are the following: You start with agreeing as fact that Scarabs are incredibly useful in the current tournament meta and one of the best units in the codex. Now: Can Scarabs be useful against Necrons? Yes. Can they earn their points back and more? Yes. Can Necrons counter (enemy) Scarabs? Yes. Does spending 45-90 points on a base unit of Scarabs (that get boosted up in size for free) gimp my army against enemy Necrons in a way that makes a 20-0 victory impossible? No.
After those answers it's clear that I don't need to be concerned during the army construction phase. We take our vulnerabilities into consideration turn by turn during the game when we prioritise our own targets.
MarkCron wrote:You filled ALL your HS and FA slots, still have troops and have points left over for a CCB? Wow, can I see your list?
Mark, are you serious? Can you show me any Necron list that doesn't have it's HS and FA slots filled up AND include a CCB? I mean, one single list?
You do realize that Therion's list has exactly the same, only with a DS for my AB (+85 pts) and a Wraith unit for my Scarabs (+135pts). But you see mine as having point problems?
Dude, seriously. If you're not filling up EVERY SINGLE ONE of your FA and HS slots, you're doing it wrong.
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Therion wrote:I can't believe I need to explain but I'll do it anyway so that there's no misunderstandings.
Nononono. We're screwed. You and I aren't fighting each other, and you and I aren't the blue-on-blue I'm talking about.
You and I both chose to field an Imotekh list. That's because he's very, very effective against mass AV11 etc. vehicles. But when we bump into another Necron list, the problem won't be the damn Scarabs, my friend - it'll be that we spent 220 pts on a non-combat unit AND we'll be going up against an opponent with Solar Pulses to neutralize our lightning.
I really do think we (you and I) would be screwed! But I also would have to sit down and do a serious analysis, I don't think of other Necrons as likely opponents.
MarkCron wrote:You filled ALL your HS and FA slots, still have troops and have points left over for a CCB? Wow, can I see your list?
Mark, are you serious? Can you show me any Necron list that doesn't have it's HS and FA slots filled up AND include a CCB? I mean, one single list?
You do realize that Therion's list has exactly the same, only with a DS for my AB (+85 pts) and a Wraith unit for my Scarabs (+135pts). But you see mine as having point problems?
Dude, seriously. If you're not filling up EVERY SINGLE ONE of your FA and HS slots, you're doing it wrong.
Randall, I WAS serious. I think that you're forgetting that a lot of people start with a battleforce and then add stuff as they go so they don't have the models to field wraiths plus spyders plus scarabs plus AB plus CCB. If you don't believe me, check out a lot of the lists that new necron players are posting. I CAN'T fill all my slots - don't have enough models. So, I'm CLEARLY doing it wrong - but that doesn't mean that I have an excuse to use the CCB ineffectively.
Also, at lower point games, say 1000 or 1500, many people are choosing CCB and not getting the benefit out of it. The principle that you should use every unit, INCLUDING the CCB to get the most benefit doesn't only apply at 2000pt games.
I really do think we (you and I) would be screwed!
Imotekh brings intangibles that the dual CCB setup with pulseteks doesn't. 4+ to seize (the enemy will never be able to be sure if he's going to start the game or not), points savings on Crypteks, the Phaeron ability, and the night fight plus lightning strikes cannot be underestimated, even against Necrons.
I also need to add that I build my lists from a GT approach. I only play single matches against my friends at my home when we playtest tournament lists against eachother. Otherwise every game will be at a four to six game tournament where enemy lists will vary enormously and my list reflects a counter to the current trends and metagame. Even explaining that, I don't need to be concerned of enemy army lists that go against the current trends, because the chances of ever meeting one of those is extremely slim because of tournament swiss system match making. The only chance of playing against strange army lists that are based on no logic or plan is during the first round of the tournament because afterwards the winners play against other winners. You'll know what you'll play against so if you bring a knife to a gunfight you've got noone else to blame but yourself, and when you know you'll play against mech IG, Coteaz GK and SW, you'll bring Imotekh and a single CCB boss. Before Necrons, I played SW, BA and GK myself.
MarkCron wrote:Randall, I WAS serious. I think that you're forgetting that a lot of people start with a battleforce and then add stuff as they go so they don't have the models to field wraiths plus spyders plus scarabs plus AB plus CCB.
Oh, okay, sorry about that then. No stress.
Basically, Mark, I'm making every economization I can in my list, which is why I went 2xScarab 1xWraith for the Fast Attack slot - Wraiths are expensive. Also why I went away from a full-on nine Spyder setup, it was cheaper points-wise to switch to an AB. (Plus the AB gives me some chance for cover, it's really not a palatable target. AV13 for 90pts.)
I really should drop the last expensive Wraith unit altogether. I should save the points and go full-on Scarab Farm, but I have six beautiful old lead Wraith miniatures and damned if I'm not going to play them.
I really do think we (you and I) would be screwed!
Imotekh brings intangibles that the dual CCB setup with pulseteks doesn't. 4+ to seize (the enemy will never be able to be sure if he's going to start the game or not), points savings on Crypteks, the Phaeron ability, and the night fight plus lightning strikes cannot be underestimated, even against Necrons.
I also need to add that I build my lists from a GT approach. I only play single matches against my friends at my home when we playtest tournament lists against eachother. Otherwise every game will be at a four to six game tournament where enemy lists will vary enormously and my list reflects a counter to the current trends and metagame. Even explaining that, I don't need to be concerned of enemy army lists that go against the current trends, because the chances of ever meeting one of those is extremely slim because of tournament swiss system match making. The only chance of playing against strange army lists that are based on no logic or plan is during the first round of the tournament because afterwards the winners play against other winners. You'll know what you'll play against so if you bring a knife to a gunfight you've got noone else to blame but yourself, and when you know you'll play against mech IG, Coteaz GK and SW, you'll bring Imotekh and a single CCB boss. Before Necrons, I played SW, BA and GK myself.
Hmm. There's a couple Necron builds we could run into. Either one of the CC variants (Scarab or Wraith) would give us trouble, as would a balanced list like Alex Fennell plays. But moreso the Wraithwing CC variant - there wouldn't be enough time for our lightning to have effect, they'd be right on top of us turn 2 and they'd have spent those extra points on Wraiths and CCB's. Three Wraith units and two CCB's works just as well on us as Space Marines.
It'd be a lot like spotting an opponent a pawn in a chess game. Could you still win? Sure. Tough, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Hey, Guys! Be nice! We're not measuring dicks here, don't get all grumpy, we're just chatting.
Randall Turner wrote:
I really should drop the last expensive Wraith unit altogether. I should save the points and go full-on Scarab Farm, but I have six beautiful old lead Wraith miniatures and damned if I'm not going to play them.
Why drop the wraiths? During the long (and exhausting !! so many combos...so little dollars ) investigations as to what to buy next, even though money is telling me to buy spyders, I want to buy a unit of wraiths. They just seem to bulk up any army build I can think of.
What's with the dislike for zandy people's? For 5 more points then an equivalent wargear overlord, you get the ability to give a unit a bunch of USR's, and take those same USR's from an enemy unit. And also the forgotten ability that giving any unit that has deep strike essentially the same rule as deathmarks! Put him with 10 tesla immortals to make use the res orb, and in wraithwing lists he seems invaluable! Give them furious charge for STR 7, take away counter attack or and whatnot and watch them run through squads, same for lychguard! Makes sword and board even better! And of course tank hunters to HD or destructeks. As far as I can tell he's great if you don't want to run a second a CCB, his synergy could prove invaluable (for example, giving a unit CA because you know you will be assaulted, taking away FC from BA or bezerkers, and they just become average.
Also what are people's opinions on the destroyer lord? I've been placing him with wraiths, then when it comes to assaulting, separating him from the unit and taking on something by himself. PE is magic on him, he can easily hold his own against 90% of squads that don't have a PFIC in it.
I have only used Zandy once and, although he didn't pay his cost on his own, the support he lends the army overall is what enticed me. At T5 with a 2/3/4 save he could also be used to tarpit enemiy units in a pinch.
I am one of thsoe players who can't afford (models or money wise) to fill up all my FA and HS slots, especially in lower point games. Mymust-tak units right now tend to a be 2 Anni Barges (LOVE them), at least 1 scarabs unit (no less than 6 bases IMO) and a squad of 3 Heavy Destroyers for longer range tank and TEQ sniping.
I am experimenting with the HQ choice. Anrakyr was fun as i managed to shoto a libby with the multimelta from his own land raider, but if he gets stuck in combat he is missing MSS and SW which means he goes down pretty quick. In smaller games i found Imhotekhs lighting to be too unreliable, but in an Apoc game i would definately take him.
My current quandry is if i shoudl take an CCB O-Lord (weave, scythe, MSS) or Anrakyr in a CCB to go alogn with Zandy in a 1500 point game. The O-Lord is better when un-barged. And Anraky has his Mind in the Machine power which is cool. The O-Lord option is 35 points cheaper.
Tbh, I have my HS and Eites filled up, but that's because of the slight Tremorcron variant I'm testing at the moment.
I'll post the list up later.
One thing I will add, is that I'm steering away from Tremorcrons altogether and going all shooty.
I'm also thinking of dropping Doomsday and taking two Ghost Arks to use as Gunboats for three man Royal Court: 2 Destruction (one with Pulse) and a Chronotek for those important re-rolls on the damage chart if needed. It makes Ghost Arks worth taking IMO.
@praxiss, I'm currently running a Zandhrek, Obyron Anrakyr combo at 2000pts. (This is the FunCron list I posted a couple of weeks ago).
I find that Zandy is still useful and I like the Zandy/Anrakyr combo, mainly because the buff of Immortals to Eternals means I can focus Zandy where I need him most, but always have the Eternals with FC and CA.
However, I'm not sure Oby is worth his points. Ghostwalk mantle is nice, but I find that he needs a body guard with invul save. Otherwise, he's toast to either shooting or power weapons. For 160 points I reckon he's not worth it.
@puscifer, I've trialled the ghost ark gunboat as well. Worked great until the GA died. Then the Crypteks got very lonely real fast. Now I'm playing with 5 warriors, lancetek, chronotek to see if that gives better flexibility. This seems to be working ok but jury is still out.
Puscifer wrote:I'm also thinking of dropping Doomsday and taking two Ghost Arks to use as Gunboats for three man Royal Court: 2 Destruction (one with Pulse) and a Chronotek for those important re-rolls on the damage chart if needed.
Why not go all out and put 4 Lance-teks in the boat with the Chrono-tek? Surely that would have to be devastating.
(or would it border on OP?)
It's not op at all. It's very very expensive and a huge target.
Giving the Arks a two or three shot lance plus Chronotek is just the sweet spot. I'm leaning towards a 2 shot as it is pretty cheap and makes the Ark a nasty tank killer without becoming a big target and it can still repair a unit of Warriors.
I'm going for two of these "Destructor) Arks in 2k. They seem to go well with my shooty theme using Stalkers to mark targets.
I think Stalkers are THE key unit in Shooty lists. They link the rest of the army vs one unit and it's another AV 13 mech.
Puscifer wrote:I'm also thinking of dropping Doomsday and taking two Ghost Arks to use as Gunboats for three man Royal Court: 2 Destruction (one with Pulse) and a Chronotek for those important re-rolls on the damage chart if needed.
Why not go all out and put 4 Lance-teks in the boat with the Chrono-tek? Surely that would have to be devastating.(or would it border on OP?)
Sweet spot's probably two.
You don't want more because they'll waste shots. They all have to fire at the same target, after it's dead, welp, you're just bouncing the rubble.
Need more than just one chrono-lance pair, though, to avoid wasting your chrono reroll. With one, you can hit but then he makes his cover save. Can't reroll *his* rolls, chrono is wasted. So you'll need more shots to get through it and get into the penetration/results bit. A second lance will pretty much assure you'll have one roll to re-roll.
Thats why I run 2-3 lance warriors units with triarch stalkers. At worst kills nothing, at best kills 3. Lances are trying to be long fangs. Split fire is what makes zee long fangs work
skoffs wrote:too bad you can't get the two Lances AND the Chrono-tek in with 5 Warriors...
(at least, not outside of Apocalypse)
Leth wrote: Split fire is what makes zee long fangs work
Being able to split fire from 4 lanceteks in an ark would be nice!! You could always attach 2 crypteks to 2 sets of five warriors get the warriors killed off, then put the remaining crypteks, warriors into the Ghost Ark!
Actually, if you had two groups of 2 crypteks from different royal courts, are they allowed to share a ghost ark?
No you can't. You can only put one unit in a transport unless it has rules saying otherwise (see Stormraven) and crypteks may never join another unit than the one they deployed with.
These are the lists I've come up with so far for the models I own. I can't decide which one to build my collection as. They both have benefits of massive firepower and a huge amount of AV 13:
Royal Court = 130.Â
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.Â
Royal Court = 130.Â
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.Â
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.Â
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.Â
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.Â
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.Â
Royal Court = 130.Â
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.Â
Royal Court = 130.Â
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.Â
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.Â
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.Â
Ghost Ark = 115.Â
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.Â
Ghost Ark = 115.Â
In the second list, the Royal Courts travel in the Ghost Arks to make them into quite nasty mobile battle tanks that can re-roll on the DMG table vs vehicles.
The plan is simple:
Early game, Pulse until I'm in range.
When in range, always fire the Heat Ray to gain Twin Linked vs the two units that have been shot at. Proceed to destroy said targets with Lanceteks. Mop up the contents (if any) with Doomsday Arks or Annihilation Barges.
Haven't tried a long range shooty list with the Crons yet and I don't think I have it in me to try until my current army is built. Personally I would like to proxy out a couple of Gunboat Arks (3x Destroteks in each), a couple of Triarch Stalkers, 2/3 min Warriors, 1x larger Warrior squad and 3 Doomsday Arks. Zahndrekh seems almost obligatory here since he gets the all important res-orb with defensive upgrades for only 5pts more than what you would normally pay on an Overlord. Tank Hunters is well worth 5pts.
But that's just me. Still far too fascinated with Wraiths, CCB's and Doom Scythes to move on to that yet.
I'd drop the Arrows, and you can purchase MSS, and Weaves for the Overlords. Arrows are really not worth their points cost. The Weave and Shackles make it so the Overlord isn't totally useless when he gets dethroned.
Royal Court = 130.
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.
Royal Court = 130.
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.
6 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 113.
You could cut down to the minimim size warrior squads, and not really loose anything. My troop squads almost never get touched by anything.
9 Immortals = 170.
If you want a squad of Immortals, you could consider giving them Tesla Carbines, and a Veiltek. This will allow you to grab Objectives late game, and move around and shoot at vunerable targets as well. I'd consider dropping a warrior squad if you are taking these, you really don't need 5 sets of troops.
I feel the Doomsday Arks are our weakest choice in the Heavy support slot. I have played with them, and Own two of them myself, and they are just not worth their points. They can be scary, but even with the Twin-linking from the Stalkers, they really are not that good. You can drop these, and do numerous things to tweak your list. You're missing out on Wraiths, Spyders, and Scarabs, which some of the best units in the Codex. You could 1-for-1 swap these for two Doom Scythes, and it would probably be a better choice.
How often are you lot excited about charging with your immortals? How big of a difference is the chance of counter attack or 5 strength making for you? I can understand charging to control casualties from shooting but how much is being very slightly better at it worth to you? How much investing in it do you want to do? I payed 17 points per model for a sturdy mobile gun I wanted to be shooting and hopefully moving into scoring with, not getting tied up combat. They still pale in comparison to most un impressive cc units like assault marines and fnp witches.
My problem with zandy isn't that he's overpriced for what he has, it's that he has very little I can see myself consistently wanting. He makes for nice wound allocation and immortal survival, tank hunters and stealth really come in handy and are buffs you can play around and take to the bank, but what is that worth? A barge lord does his own killing really really well. He also has 2 life times and is working hard for you in every phase. Zandy seems like he's just for fun. He's got some really cute utility, and he will lead to tonnes of great stories but he's an awfully expensive 3 wounds, staff of light and resurrection orb, and at the end of the day how often do you feel like those things are worth paying for?
I tried the Doom Scythe, to not great effect. Too many Psyflemen Dreads and Hydra Flak Tanks in my meta for it to be good, where as the Doomsday Ark have been ok.
I stress ok, as they are only good against TEQ armies and Hordes.
What about the second list?
It seems to be more stable.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another list to add to the Musing. I still can't believe this is 2000 points and how much easier it was to add awesomeness by dropping 10 Immortals:
Royal Court = 130.Â
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.Â
Royal Court = 130.Â
2 Harbingers of Destruction, 1 Solar Pulse, 1 Harbinger of Transmogrification, 1 Chronometron.Â
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.Â
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.Â
Ghost Ark = 115.Â
5 Warriors and Harbinger of Destruction = 100.Â
Ghost Ark = 115.Â
Again the Royal Courts go in the Ghost Arks.
Same tactic as before, Pulse until I'm in range, fire the Stalkers first and then destroy those targets with unrelenting Firepower.
The Annihilation Barges mop up what's left of the target.
I think this will work vs Hordes of Orks and Nids, but against GK or other lists I'm not sure. I think it will erase TEQ armies (specifically Draigowing) thanks to mass AP2 Firepower.
Lucre wrote:How often are you lot excited about charging with your immortals? How big of a difference is the chance of counter attack or 5 strength making for you? I can understand charging to control casualties from shooting but how much is being very slightly better at it worth to you? How much investing in it do you want to do? I payed 17 points per model for a sturdy mobile gun I wanted to be shooting and hopefully moving into scoring with, not getting tied up combat. They still pale in comparison to most un impressive cc units like assault marines and fnp witches.
My problem with zandy isn't that he's overpriced for what he has, it's that he has very little I can see myself consistently wanting. He makes for nice wound allocation and immortal survival, tank hunters and stealth really come in handy and are buffs you can play around and take to the bank, but what is that worth? A barge lord does his own killing really really well. He also has 2 life times and is working hard for you in every phase. Zandy seems like he's just for fun. He's got some really cute utility, and he will lead to tonnes of great stories but he's an awfully expensive 3 wounds, staff of light and resurrection orb, and at the end of the day how often do you feel like those things are worth paying for?
Admittedly i have only used him once but i find that Zandy is a worthwhile investment for Tank Hunter alone. I suppose it depends on what you field. I usually field a squad fo 3 Heavy Ds, and being able to make them S10 is a massive boost. Alternativly, S8 Anni Barges could be fun too.
I have played Anrakyr in a coupel of games and found buffing the Immortals to be.....inefficient at best. As you said, Immortals are not a unit that you want to charge in, they are a unit you want torudge up with their assault guns and blast the stuffing out of stuff. But i still really like him for the giggle of using an opponents tanks against them.
I would run double harbinger of destruction in your warrior units if you can find the points. Since you have two overlordds anyway. Having two strength 8 shots on the move is really REALLY good.
Praxiss wrote:
I have played Anrakyr in a coupel of games and found buffing the Immortals to be.....inefficient at best. As you said, Immortals are not a unit that you want to charge in, they are a unit you want torudge up with their assault guns and blast the stuffing out of stuff. But i still really like him for the giggle of using an opponents tanks against them.
I like the Eternals, mainly because they are a free upgrade. The FC and counter attack are helpful in giving them a chance to survive a CC encounter, but not for treating them as a dedicated CC unit. Course, if you are going to get assaulted might as well shoot then assault to take advantage of the FC. Basically, anything that helps a block of 10+ shooty warriors not run off the board is helpful! Having said that I wouldn't take Anrakyr just to get Eternals.
I do like the Zandhrek/Anrakyr+CCB combo, cheesy as it is. Logically, I shouldn't because I could get a barge lord for less than anrakyr, but MitM and the Eternal synergy with Zandy (can have a tougher shooty troop unit + Zandy can still be buffing other units) somehow makes it seem worth it.
Puscifer wrote:wrote a great list with 5 barges, 2 stalkers
Great list. I can't do it because I don't have stalkers, but the 5 barges with MSU warrior lanceteks seems to be a solid base that you can add most things to. More scarabs (but no spyders obviously), a foot list block of warriors, wraiths, all seem to fit really well. I'd say the key is that 5 barges is a world of pain for just about any army, not just hordes.
Interesting that the list doesn't seem to need named characters - or rather, adding named characters would probably take something away from it.
Yeah, I just built my 3rd barge too. However, my wish list is now 2 Barges +Wraiths. Stalkers and spyders would be nice, but basically I'm in with the barges. Being able to play three anni barges is awesome (and this is in fact why I play Zandy/Anrakyr combos - no wraiths, spyders and stalkers, 1 GA, means I'm looking for ways to keep blocks of warriors/immortals from falling off the board.).
I'm getting some more scarabs in the meantime to act as tarpits until I get some wraiths. I'm thinking 5 barges, 2 wraith units then warriors to fill the gaps.
I keep thinking though, why can't we have a TL heavy Gauss cannon on the barges? Or, why can't Tesla be AP3!!
You don't want more because they'll waste shots. They all have to fire at the same target, after it's dead, welp, you're just bouncing the rubble.
Need more than just one chrono-lance pair, though, to avoid wasting your chrono reroll. With one, you can hit but then he makes his cover save. Can't reroll *his* rolls, chrono is wasted. So you'll need more shots to get through it and get into the penetration/results bit. A second lance will pretty much assure you'll have one roll to re-roll.
I would say the sweet spot is 4 lances and a crono. Im not sure why you think they will waste shots, if you do the maths I think you will find that they have less than 50% chance to destroy AV12.
I have used this court extensivly with and without a Ghost ark and found that most of the time the >50% increase in cost to add the Ark is not an efficient use of points. With less lance teks the ark is an even less efficient use of points.
If your not taking the full lance/chrono court I think your much better off with 5 warriors and 2 lance-teks.
@Psucifer : Are you having problems with the immortals running off the board?
Every time I try running large blocks of warriors (say 15+) or 10+ Immortals, they get CC'd by something and run off the board. I seem to spend most of the game trying to stop anything getting to them (and as I'm playing Nids quite often, that plan isn't working). I'm not finding the fun in that.
I don't care if 5 warriors and a lancetek get slaughtered, but something about a large block heading the wrong way really gets to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS, yes they take the phaeron/orblord/veiltek etc with them.
MarkCron wrote:@Psucifer : Are you having problems with the immortals running off the board?
Every time I try running large blocks of warriors (say 15+) or 10+ Immortals, they get CC'd by something and run off the board. I seem to spend most of the game trying to stop anything getting to them (and as I'm playing Nids quite often, that plan isn't working). I'm not finding the fun in that.
I don't care if 5 warriors and a lancetek get slaughtered, but something about a large block heading the wrong way really gets to me.
Tbh, my Immortals have been a total waste of points. They just don't do enough to justify 170 points. Might just make them up into Deathmarks. They seem to bring more death to the enemy.
I agree though, our combat plan seems to be less about the troops and more about tabling our opponents, which we can adequately do.
I was worried about survivability of the small warrior squads, but if they are there to just meatshield the Lanceteks, I might just stick with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Sweet spot's probably two.
You don't want more because they'll waste shots. They all have to fire at the same target, after it's dead, welp, you're just bouncing the rubble.
Need more than just one chrono-lance pair, though, to avoid wasting your chrono reroll. With one, you can hit but then he makes his cover save. Can't reroll *his* rolls, chrono is wasted. So you'll need more shots to get through it and get into the penetration/results bit. A second lance will pretty much assure you'll have one roll to re-roll.
I would say the sweet spot is 4 lances and a crono. Im not sure why you think they will waste shots, if you do the maths I think you will find that they have less than 50% chance to destroy AV12.
I have used this court extensivly with and without a Ghost ark and found that most of the time the >50% increase in cost to add the Ark is not an efficient use of points. With less lance teks the ark is an even less efficient use of points.
If your not taking the full lance/chrono court I think your much better off with 5 warriors and 2 lance-teks.
The problem with the above unit is the expense and putting too many eggs in one basket.
If that transport pops an you lose your uber gank shot squad, you'll be less effective elsewhere.
With the Necrons it's time to act like its the 60's and spread the love. In this case, Lance Love.
MarkCron wrote:@Psucifer : Are you having problems with the immortals running off the board?
Every time I try running large blocks of warriors (say 15+) or 10+ Immortals, they get CC'd by something and run off the board. I seem to spend most of the game trying to stop anything getting to them (and as I'm playing Nids quite often, that plan isn't working). I'm not finding the fun in that.
I don't care if 5 warriors and a lancetek get slaughtered, but something about a large block heading the wrong way really gets to me.
Tbh, my Immortals have been a total waste of points. They just don't do enough to justify 170 points. Might just make them up into Deathmarks. They seem to bring more death to the enemy.
I agree though, our combat plan seems to be less about the troops and more about tabling our opponents, which we can adequately do.
I was worried about survivability of the small warrior squads, but if they are there to just meatshield the Lanceteks, I might just stick with them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Sweet spot's probably two.
You don't want more because they'll waste shots. They all have to fire at the same target, after it's dead, welp, you're just bouncing the rubble.
Need more than just one chrono-lance pair, though, to avoid wasting your chrono reroll. With one, you can hit but then he makes his cover save. Can't reroll *his* rolls, chrono is wasted. So you'll need more shots to get through it and get into the penetration/results bit. A second lance will pretty much assure you'll have one roll to re-roll.
I would say the sweet spot is 4 lances and a crono. Im not sure why you think they will waste shots, if you do the maths I think you will find that they have less than 50% chance to destroy AV12.
I have used this court extensivly with and without a Ghost ark and found that most of the time the >50% increase in cost to add the Ark is not an efficient use of points. With less lance teks the ark is an even less efficient use of points.
If your not taking the full lance/chrono court I think your much better off with 5 warriors and 2 lance-teks.
The problem with the above unit is the expense and putting too many eggs in one basket.
If that transport pops an you lose your uber gank shot squad, you'll be less effective elsewhere.
With the Necrons it's time to act like its the 60's and spread the love. In this case, Lance Love.
The tank popping will have little effect on the unit. This is part of the apeal of the ark- if your opponent kills it they will have acheived very little as the court keeps firing. I think they are better without the ark when the are 180 pts before the SP- not that expensive.
Spreading the lances out has its place but there are pros and cons, the spread out lances cannot benefit from the cronometron or Zandreks tank hunters as well. Spreading out your lances also requires multple 5man warrior squads which may or may not fit with your list.
Mini lance courts in arks without warriors just seem terribly inefficient.
MarkCron wrote:@Psucifer : Are you having problems with the immortals running off the board?
Every time I try running large blocks of warriors (say 15+) or 10+ Immortals, they get CC'd by something and run off the board. I seem to spend most of the game trying to stop anything getting to them (and as I'm playing Nids quite often, that plan isn't working). I'm not finding the fun in that.
I don't care if 5 warriors and a lancetek get slaughtered, but something about a large block heading the wrong way really gets to me.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS, yes they take the phaeron/orblord/veiltek etc with them.
One big problem with running necron blobs is the expense. You don't have much else to throw around, and they don't have the versatility to be good in a number of situations. You have to play very smart with them to not find them in a situation where they are wasting their incredible expenditure. It is also really hard to play smart with a unit when you don't have a lot of tricks up your sleeve, or extra units providing actions. Your blob is expensive, necron tricks are also expensive, so you wont have a lot to play with sadly.
Going over the top is one idea. I mean, how much is going to be able to survive a 20 man warrior squad and 2/3 warscythe/MSS Lords? Well, maybe they don't have to? Maybe it can be avoided? Also, you can only rapidfire one squad a turn and you've only got so many attacks, the rest is just vulnerable buffer.
My advice these days, is try to pick either a middle ground, or try your best to play standard. Big fat necron synergy and resilience is pretty impressive, but sometimes you forget what else you are losing out on. You might feel like you are wasting the army, or points on units, if you aren't playing into their special abilities, but you don't have to go at it hard. It's one of the moments where GW has succeeded in making something that isn't a black and white decision. Or maybe they just tried to make something cool and it turned out bad... I'm not too sure yet.
Warrior vs immortal decisions and transport options are such interesting decisions! So many options in this dex are so expensive and cumbersome, you really have to think!
Also, as far as I've used them, veilsteks feel a bit like traps. I think they can be okay, but they really need to be understood to be used well consistently and I can't make that claim yet. 60 points for a really unreliable speed boost, that subjects your expensive, delicate, very specifically effective unit to chaotic dice rolls. It also puts all sorts of bad ideas in your head about the template weapon, or if you are conservative like me, wastes it's intrinsic cost. I have no idea why it's so expensive. It's really no transport.
If you keep having these problems, but you feel like you need sturdier units to hold objectives or need more out of your slots, I really recommend reading some articles on blocking, bubble-wrapping. It helped me a bunch!
@ChronoMark, I agree the ghost arks are pricey. But most of my targets are searchlight AV11's, and for them more than two lances will be overkill.
Bear in mind that I'm playing a pure night-fight list with Imotekh, so I've got to worry about night range during my turn also. At least for the first little while. So you probably have more lucrative AV12 targets than I do. <shrug>
One big problem with running necron blobs is the expense. You don't have much else to throw around, and they don't have the versatility to be good in a number of situations.
They can damage any unit in the game (save the increasingly rare T8) so I'm not sure what you are referring to in regards to not versatile enough. If properly created they are more then a match for the most common CC opponents as well.
Personally I think the two mistakes I've seen the msot with blobs are:
1.) Not creating/supporting them properly
2.) Not realizing that if your going blob you don't need 4 to 6 troop choices. Really, 2 blobs can be quite adequate.
For context I use them in an ImoCC list, so anything getting to my warriors has already found a way through 75% of the rest of my list which is dedicated CC. I could see blobs being a liability in a primarily shooty list.
I'm currently trying to find a way to include a third Ghost Ark in my list. This would take my AV13 vehicle count to a mighty TEN, which I believe is more than any other army can put out at 2000 points.
Three Ghost Arks with a small warrior squad and two Lanceteks in each is quite nice I think. Actually, come to think of it, the warriors and the side mounted flayers can shoot at the same time right? If so, that's an insane amount of FP at 12".
Puscifer wrote:I'm currently trying to find a way to include a third Ghost Ark in my list. This would take my AV13 vehicle count to a mighty TEN, which I believe is more than any other army can put out at 2000 points.
My Blood Angels Mech can certainly do better than that, but your point is taken....that's quite a lot of AV13.
One big problem with running necron blobs is the expense. You don't have much else to throw around, and they don't have the versatility to be good in a number of situations.
I agree with expense being the problem with necron blobs. For several games after the codex came out I tried 15-20 Warrior blobs with various combinations of Lords, Overlords and cryptecs plus the occasional Ghost Ark. I found that I could make the blobs inccredibly hard to kill with some of the cool wargear we have but they just dont cause enough damage for their points cost and can be ignored too easily.
Randall Turner wrote:@ChronoMark, I agree the ghost arks are pricey. But most of my targets are searchlight AV11's, and for them more than two lances will be overkill.
Bear in mind that I'm playing a pure night-fight list with Imotekh, so I've got to worry about night range during my turn also. At least for the first little while. So you probably have more lucrative AV12 targets than I do. <shrug>
More than 2 lances are not overkill against AV11. 2 Lances gives 1.3 hits, 0.66 pens, 0.22 wrecked/explode, half that if theres a cover save.
In an Imotekh list though you definatly dont want to be spending many points on 36" range guns so I can understand that.
One big problem with running necron blobs is the expense. You don't have much else to throw around, and they don't have the versatility to be good in a number of situations.
They can damage any unit in the game (save the increasingly rare T8) so I'm not sure what you are referring to in regards to not versatile enough. If properly created they are more then a match for the most common CC opponents as well.
Personally I think the two mistakes I've seen the msot with blobs are:
1.) Not creating/supporting them properly
2.) Not realizing that if your going blob you don't need 4 to 6 troop choices. Really, 2 blobs can be quite adequate.
For context I use them in an ImoCC list, so anything getting to my warriors has already found a way through 75% of the rest of my list which is dedicated CC. I could see blobs being a liability in a primarily shooty list.
Perhaps that is my problem, as I tend to use a lot of shooting. I've been really excited about a CC list of late though, so maybe I'll learn, but for now, I'd much rather have my overlords contributing their own actions than helping another unit, and I'm also trying to keep my scoring units cheap and plentiful, but I can see how blobs might work just as well. I just cant imagine myself building around both blobs and cc. I'd love to see your write up.
I also don't trust gauss flayers much. For 20 gauss shots you've got something like .7 chance of glancing into a weapon destroyed or immobilized without cover. You double that of course a range 12, but that's still not much for the commitment of a bajillion guys worth of shooting. They also only tend to kill something like 2 marines per 20 shots in my experience. I consider them too inefficient at most tasks to warrant them committing too many turns to a wasteful task. I acknowledge that a large part of their value is gained without having to take actions at all, they sit on the table and look scary really well, and they also make shooting at them feel really depressing, but again, how many points are you willing to devote to crappy versatility. How much do you have left for support after buying a phaeron a lord and 15-20 warriors (and even an ark). I find myself wanting more actions than what this set up gives me.
Committing so heavily to making it a beast in CC is also a hard sell, but probably one of the most fun things in the game for me. 2/3 x warscythe and MSS sitting with a bunch of ablative wounds and an ark for blocking becomes really interesting. I keep finding the Ark to have more and more value as an add on. Maybe it's just my trying to find ways to justify it's ludicrous cost.
I have started using my host Ark as A) a lance gunboat, and b) a movebale Av13 wall to give my scarabs cover whiel they move up the table (assumign that cover is scarce).
Randall Turner wrote:@ChronoMark, I agree the ghost arks are pricey. But most of my targets are searchlight AV11's, and for them more than two lances will be overkill.
Bear in mind that I'm playing a pure night-fight list with Imotekh, so I've got to worry about night range during my turn also. At least for the first little while. So you probably have more lucrative AV12 targets than I do. <shrug>
More than 2 lances are not overkill against AV11. 2 Lances gives 1.3 hits, 0.66 pens, 0.22 wrecked/explode, half that if theres a cover save.
In an Imotekh list though you definatly dont want to be spending many points on 36" range guns so I can understand that.
Well, you reach the "overkill" point as soon as you have a reasonable chance of using the Chronotek. Not when you're guaranteed to kill the transport. Anything past the point of having a guaranteed reroll opportunity you're losing the benefit of bunching the lanceteks up with the Chronotek. Aaaand, of course, your figures for hit/pen/damage aren't taking into account the chrono rerolls.
Praxiss wrote:Dos the ChronoTek let reroll one dice roll or the entire roll for a unit?
Example - 4 lanceTek all shoot and 3 miss. Assuming there is a Chronotek in the unit can they re-roll all 3 misses or just one of them?
Randall Turner wrote:One die roll only.
You don't use the Chronoteks to re-roll misses, you use them to re-roll on the DMG chart. As I've just noticed and had it confirmed from Randall, this is why I've dropped the Chronoteks from my latest lists - one die re-roll isn't worth it.
I was thinking of dropping 2 bases of Scarabs in favour of 2 Heavy Destroyers, but at £17 a model, they are a little pricey and I doubt their effectiveness if they are not Twin Linked by the Stalkers.
Although, a second unit of Scarabs could be pretty good.
Yeah, I think 2 Heavy Destroyers will be good in this list. 2 squads of one hovering around the board edges or behind one of my vehicles. End of the day, it's another two Anti Armour shots that can get Twin Linked.
Go for it. The Finecast H.Destroyer conversion kit is pants. Too fiddly and will snap in a heartbeat. i am just going to proxy normal Destroyers until i can source fairly cheap triarch cannons.
I dont see why GW didn't just put the Triarch havy cannon in the conversion kit instead.
Praxiss wrote:Go for it. The Finecast H.Destroyer conversion kit is pants. Too fiddly and will snap in a heartbeat. i am just going to proxy normal Destroyers until i can source fairly cheap triarch cannons.
I dont see why GW didn't just put the Triarch havy cannon in the conversion kit instead.
I'm going to have two spare Triarch Cannons which I was going to put on Ebay.
My AV13 wall list is similar, but focused a little more on the armor.
Overlord (CCB with Gauss Cannon, Warscythe)
Overlord (CCB with Gauss Cannon, Warscythe)
Royal Court (4x Lanceteks, 1x Solar Pulse)
Royal Court (4x Lanceteks, 1x Solar Pulse)
Triarch Stalker (TL Heavy Gauss Cannon)
Triarch Stalker (TL Heavy Gauss Cannon)
Anni Barge (Gauss Cannon)
Anni Barge (Gauss Cannon)
Anni Barge (Gauss Cannon)
I'm considering swapping the H. Gauss Cannon for the Heat Ray, then giving the Overlords MSS.
I've done okay with proxying the models I don't have. Going to wait till 6th hits and I get a chance to look it over before I finish buying the stuff for this, or buy all the Scythes I need for my Scythespam list. Just depends on which one will work better in the new enviorment.
Puscifer wrote:Heat Ray is much better than the HGC. Popping AV14 up close and two shots is always a plus.
I really dig the Heat Ray's versatility, but the HGCs ability to stand and deliver at the peripheries of Night Fighting range tremendously boost the Stalkers survivability. Also, the better range helps snuff out castled in heavy support vehicles (against IG in particular).
Puscifer wrote:Heat Ray is much better than the HGC. Popping AV14 up close and two shots is always a plus.
I really dig the Heat Ray's versatility, but the HGCs ability to stand and deliver at the peripheries of Night Fighting range tremendously boost the Stalkers survivability. Also, the better range helps snuff out castled in heavy support vehicles (against IG in particular).
Very true. I suppose it comes down to if you take Heavy Destroyers. I do and I keep them back, while the AV13 moves up to support.
Quick question to you guys...
The Heat Ray has two settings... Can it shoot both in the same turn, being that it's mounted on a walker?
Randall Turner wrote: Well, you reach the "overkill" point as soon as you have a reasonable chance of using the Chronotek. Not when you're guaranteed to kill the transport. Anything past the point of having a guaranteed reroll opportunity you're losing the benefit of bunching the lanceteks up with the Chronotek. Aaaand, of course, your figures for hit/pen/damage aren't taking into account the chrono rerolls.
You should be able to see from the maths I did that there will be a 0.44 chance that you get to use the chrono reroll on the damage table so with only 2 Lances you are unlikley to make use of it. The proper maths for the number of lances which will make most efficient use of a Chronometron is pretty long winded but trust me it is 4, especially for AVs higher than 11. Feel free to disagree but please use maths if you do!
I just asked my friend who is a scientist and is very savvy in Math and 40k. He agrees.
4 is the magic number, but... This is a huge but...
Having 4 in one unit doesn't work in practice when you have to consider:
- That you are putting too many eggs in one basket and cannot spread fire across other targets.
- That if your Ark blows up, you could lose the entire unit.
- That you are a much bigger threat than several smaller units.
Necrons, more than any other army, are about threat management. We can spam more big threats than most other armies and we have the resilience to back it up.
Synergy is also key and while we have things in our lists that grant re-rolls to hit (Stalkers), the amount of shots hitting will generally mean we squeeze dmg through... or so he said.
Personally, would I put a Chronotek in with 4 Lanceteks?
Yes I would, if I took units of Lanceteks. After seeing them in practice, I certainly wouldn't take them.
Lanceteks are better in two ofs inside small units of warriors in Ghost Arks for three reasons:
- They are scoring.
- Warriors on foot with 2 Lanceteks are too fragile to use.
- They are mobile Gunboats that can pop a transport and then chew through the insides.
I've also heard them described as better DE Raiders, but I'm not sure on that one as there is a might difference in points.
Randall Turner wrote: Well, you reach the "overkill" point as soon as you have a reasonable chance of using the Chronotek. Not when you're guaranteed to kill the transport. Anything past the point of having a guaranteed reroll opportunity you're losing the benefit of bunching the lanceteks up with the Chronotek. Aaaand, of course, your figures for hit/pen/damage aren't taking into account the chrono rerolls.
You should be able to see from the maths I did that there will be a 0.44 chance that you get to use the chrono reroll on the damage table so with only 2 Lances you are unlikley to make use of it. The proper maths for the number of lances which will make most efficient use of a Chronometron is pretty long winded but trust me it is 4, especially for AVs higher than 11. Feel free to disagree but please use maths if you do!
LOL dude, you know I'm an engineer, right? My calculator works good. And no offense, Puscifer, but your "scientist" friend is wrong, show him this post after you read it.
First of all, chrono rerolls in general - we benefit the most from rerolls where we've missed a high-probability roll. The best reroll we can make is a missed 2+ (ie, a "1") because we've a near unity chance to improve on a reroll (5/6).
Then, rolling on the damage chart - for some reason you believe this is the best use of the chrono. It's not. Illustrating with your original AV12 target scenario, a typical lancetek attack is:
3+ to hit
[ignore cover, chrono can't affect that, might not have one]
4 to glance, 5+ to pen
spectrum of damage effects, 5+ destroys on penetration
Obviously from the above, the best reroll we can make is the to-hit roll. It gives us a 2/3 chance of improving our original roll. The next two, penetration and damage, are about the same in that there's a more-or-less 50% chance of "success" on a reroll, depending on how we define "success".
Now - Moosatronic, the odds of success for a given shot using a chrono are much higher than your original post, ie...
Randall Turner wrote:
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:More than 2 lances are not overkill against AV11. 2 Lances gives 1.3 hits, 0.66 pens, 0.22 wrecked/explode, half that if theres a cover save.
Well, you reach the "overkill" point as soon as you have a reasonable chance of using the Chronotek. Not when you're guaranteed to kill the transport. Anything past the point of having a guaranteed reroll opportunity you're losing the benefit of bunching the lanceteks up with the Chronotek. Aaaand, of course, your figures for hit/pen/damage aren't taking into account the chrono rerolls.
You got "1.3 hits" by multiplying 2 x 2/3, right? What if you reroll a miss? Doh! Odds for two, one and zero hits are 4/9, 4/9 and 1/9. So 5/9 of the time you'll have at least one "miss" to reroll, and you'll have a 2/3 chance to make that reroll. Soo, your average number of hits isn't your 1.333, it's actually 1.70 - with a 4/9 chance the chrono reroll wasn't used at all.
Breaking down the odds further get more interesting b/c down the line you have to make decisions on when it's desireable to make a reroll - for instance, do you reroll a glance? But I've already done it and it's tangential, just read this thread I posted a while ago:
juraigamer wrote:The rule states you may re-roll a single d6. So only one dice.
There's a 10-page YMDC thread that implies it's not quite that straightforward.
There's an argument that GW intended you to be able to roll one die of a 2d6 roll - including a poster who called, asked that question, and was told "yes, you can". In YMDC that's irrelevant, they're arguing RAW. But when discussing tactics, it's probably more appropriate to see how it's typically played. INAT doesn't have a ruling, nor is there a GWFAQ, so we'd probably want to go whichever way the major tournaments rule. Unless you can end-run that, which I actually can - but I'm not going to the GW rules guys with something this minor.
For the purposes of this thread, though, let's just assume you can't reroll one die of a 2d6 b/c as I said, that turns the question into a no-brainer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: You know, just pushing around some numbers, this might be the way to go. From looking at how effective a single chrono-linked s8 ap2 shot is, vs. 2x naked s8 ap2
For a test case assume our most common targets are Rhino/Razorback equivalents (waving around a flashlight, most likely) followed by maybe a Vendetta/Dreadnought type target, ie, AV11 or AV12.
To hit, we get a 2/3rds naked, or a 8/9ths w/a chrono - and 2/3rds chance the chrono is still available.
Assuming we need a penetration, against AV11 we've a .5 chance naked, or a .666 chance w/a chrono (.5 + (2/3*.5*.5)) - and a 1/3rd chance the chrono is still available for the damage roll.
So far, that's *exactly* a 18/54 chance of penetrating naked, and a 32/54 chance with a chrono. (.3333 vs .5926)
Then just looking at the chances of a destroyed result, it's 1/3 naked and (1/3 + (1/3*1/3)) or 4/9 chrono, giving us .1111 naked or .26337 with a chrono.
Holy Crap, a lancetek + chrono shot might be more effective than two lance shots even disregarding other advantages! Has nobody else taken a close look at this? I need to sit down this weekend and make out a full table for a range of AV targets and intermediate (glance, immobilize etc) results, but it's not just better than twin-linked, it's a LOT better than twin-linked.
edit: maths error, chance of destroyed result after penetration if 1/3 chance a chrono reroll is available is 1/3 + (1/3 * 2/3 * 1/3) or .4074, so hit/pen/destroyed chance is .2415, not .2634
chance of single shot hit/pen/destroyed:
.1111 naked
.2415 chrono-linked
For our purposes though, the "overkill" point isn't determined by how many lances it takes to blow up a transport. (And this is where your scientist friend went wrong, Pulsifer.) The "overkill" is the point past which we've a reasonable chance of having used the chronotek. Do you guys not get this? It's based on the fact that the only benefit from "clumping" lances is the chrono reroll. So, how likely are we not to use the reroll? This happens in two circumstances - first, we kill the transport. Second, we make every hit roll, but miss every cover roll. So, to detemine the breakpoint we have to know how often the target gets a cover save.
If it's 100% of the time, the odds of wasting the chrono with two lances is 4/9 * 1/4, or 1/9 of the time. (4/9 chance both lances hit, 1/4 chance target makes both 4+ cover saves.) Obviously the target won't get a cover save 100% of the time, and obviously if the chance for one unassissted lance to destroy the target is ALSO 1/9 (see .1111 i spoiler above), it's better to break out the third and fourth lances and let them shoot separately.
So, yes - the sweet spot is two.
Edit: I was sipping coffee and thinking, you could make an argument for three. Four is right out, but three, maybe. Because:
1) The to-hit reroll is our best value. With two, there's a 5/9 chance we'll get to reroll a to-hit. The rest of the time we'll have to be re-rolling a penetration or damage roll, which isn't as powerful. With three, there's a 19/27 chance we'll get a to-hit re-roll, ie, 70% vs. 56%.
2) It may be that we just need to knock out the searchlight. In that case, we won't need to re-roll "weapon destroyed" results, it's as good as an "exploded" result for our purposes. So there's more chance the chrono re-roll will go unused.
3) Likewise, it might be Zandrekh is giving the unit "tank hunter". In that case, we'll only need to re-roll penetrations 1/3 of the time, instead of 1/2 - so again, there's more chance the chrono re-roll will go unused.
4) Well, more is just "cool".
Randall, I disagree with your assessment that re-rolling the penetration roll isn't as powerful (at least all the time). Re-rolling a 1 or 2 on the Pen can vary from just as pertinent as re-rolling the hit (aginst GK and Necrons) to almost as pertinent (particularly if it's your second 1 or 2, or you really really need to at least blast that primary weapon off, if not out right kill the target).
Point cost aside I think the sweet spot for vehicle hunting Royal Court is the following:\
3 X Lancetek
1 X Harptek
1 X Chronotek
And if you wanna get real cute a Lord w/res orb and sempermental weave.
Expensive, but deadly and surprisingly resilient (the chrono and sw/ro, if taken, help out tremendously here as well).
It's tremendously more versatile firepower (AV 10 to 14), and the Chrono can swing in and help anything that's extremely needed. Say you have a group of Termies closing in, re-rolling the lance rolls is an option but re-rolling the Tremor scatter could be the difference of life and death (also the Harp Tek allows the option of some additional potentially life saving wargear).
That being said, great post. Chronos are really one of the most powerful items we can add to our lists, particularly when combined with bullet soaking HQs like Imo or Zandrhek.
Holy Crap, a lancetek + chrono shot might be more effective than two lance shots even disregarding other advantages! Has nobody else taken a close look at this? I need to sit down this weekend and make out a full table for a range of AV targets and intermediate (glance, immobilize etc) results, but it's not just better than twin-linked, it's a LOT better than twin-linked.
<other stuff>
Edit: I was sipping coffee and thinking, you could make an argument for three. Four is right out, but three, maybe. Because:
1) The to-hit reroll is our best value. With two, there's a 5/9 chance we'll get to reroll a to-hit. The rest of the time we'll have to be re-rolling a penetration or damage roll, which isn't as powerful. With three, there's a 19/27 chance we'll get a to-hit re-roll, ie, 70% vs. 56%.
Thanks Randall. Now I can mathematically say that I'm being efficient when using the chrono to reroll the hit (as opposed to cursing the dice gods!!)
ShadarLogoth wrote:<other stuff>
Point cost aside I think the sweet spot for vehicle hunting Royal Court is the following:\
3 X Lancetek
1 X Harptek
1 X Chronotek
And if you wanna get real cute a Lord w/res orb and sempermental weave.
Expensive, but deadly and surprisingly resilient (the chrono and sw/ro, if taken, help out tremendously here as well).
Ummm..no warscythe? Just in case you get really close or get tank shocked or something? Also, as we are ignoring points cost - why not a StormTek? Haywire is lots of fun!
ShadarLogoth wrote:Randall, I disagree with your assessment that re-rolling the penetration roll isn't as powerful (at least all the time). Re-rolling a 1 or 2 on the Pen can vary from just as pertinent as re-rolling the hit (aginst GK and Necrons) to almost as pertinent (particularly if it's your second 1 or 2, or you really really need to at least blast that primary weapon off, if not out right kill the target).
Saying the to-hit reroll is more "powerful" is purely a math thing. It just means that the potential for success is high, ie, you only need a 3+. Of course that's exactly the same as with a pen roll against AV10. But we were talking about an AV11 target. Nothing metaphysical about it, it was just our highest odds reroll in the example set. (And it'll usually be the highest odds reroll for an S8 AP2 weapon.)
ShadarLogoth wrote:Randall, I disagree with your assessment that re-rolling the penetration roll isn't as powerful (at least all the time). Re-rolling a 1 or 2 on the Pen can vary from just as pertinent as re-rolling the hit (aginst GK and Necrons) to almost as pertinent (particularly if it's your second 1 or 2, or you really really need to at least blast that primary weapon off, if not out right kill the target).
Saying the to-hit reroll is more "powerful" is purely a math thing. It just means that the potential for success is high, ie, you only need a 3+. Of course that's exactly the same as with a pen roll against AV10. But we were talking about an AV11 target. Nothing metaphysical about it, it was just our highest odds reroll in the example set. (And it'll usually be the highest odds reroll for an S8 AP2 weapon.)
Right on heheh, that's what I meant as well . The point I was trying to make was if the roll you really want on the Pen chart is a 3+, then the chronos viability is equal in this case to the 3+ to-hit roll. But, admittedly, this is more situational.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ummm..no warscythe? Just in case you get really close or get tank shocked or something? Also, as we are ignoring points cost - why not a StormTek? Haywire is lots of fun!
Heh true, although only 5 Crypteks so sadly no room for the Stormtek. This thought exercise has inspired me to re-visit this unit. I'll post a separate thread some time tonight, but I'm thinking with the right amount of point investment you can turn a Glass Cannon into a Titanium Cannon for the right kind of list (not Imo, but 2 SP, and provided you were going to go Warrior Blob and have some available empty GAs to begin with).
12" - hence the issue (the only issue as far as i can see). If they were longer range i would take these instead of lanceteks (a fully decked out StormTek is also 20 points cheaper than decked out DestrucTek)
ShadarLogoth wrote:Randall, I disagree with your assessment that re-rolling the penetration roll isn't as powerful (at least all the time). Re-rolling a 1 or 2 on the Pen can vary from just as pertinent as re-rolling the hit (aginst GK and Necrons) to almost as pertinent (particularly if it's your second 1 or 2, or you really really need to at least blast that primary weapon off, if not out right kill the target).
Saying the to-hit reroll is more "powerful" is purely a math thing. It just means that the potential for success is high, ie, you only need a 3+. Of course that's exactly the same as with a pen roll against AV10. But we were talking about an AV11 target. Nothing metaphysical about it, it was just our highest odds reroll in the example set. (And it'll usually be the highest odds reroll for an S8 AP2 weapon.)
Im sorry Mr Turner I dont want to be too confrontational but you have got this completeley wrong and I had to facepalm when reading you post near the top of this page.
I think your problem is that your looking for the best chance for your chronometron reroll to be a positive result so obviously you want to be rerolling a 2+ ideally. This is NOT how to make most efficient use of the Chrono.
As I said before the proper maths for the lance court is very long winded so im not going to post it here. However there is an easy way to think about it that may help you:
If you use your chronometron to reroll the to hit roll you have wasted 5 points. This is because an extra lance would have given you the same effect for 5 points cheaper.
If you reroll a penetration roll your Chronometron is effectivly an Eldritch Lance that hit automatically.
If you reroll the damage table roll your Chronometron is effectivly an Eldritch Lance that hit and penetrated automatically
A weapon that auto hits and auto pens a tank for 40pts is really good and the more lances you have the better the chance there is of getting as far as the pen roll.
Thanks Randall. Now I can mathematically say that I'm being efficient when using the chrono to reroll the hit (as opposed to cursing the dice gods!!)
Sorry but thats not the case!
The only times I dont save the reroll as late as possible is against models with a T value or against something like a flat out DE transport.
For models with a T value you hit on 3+ and wound on 2+ (usually) rerolling the to-hit rolls increases your chances to hit by 33%, rerolling the to-wound roll increases your chance to wound by 16%. So it the crono is more efficient when used for the to-hit.
For DE transports open topped and flat out means that you only need a 3+ on the damage table to wreck the raider/venom and the 4+ cover save means you might want to reroll the pen roll to force more saves. I havent done the maths on that but it "feels" like the best way to play it.
4 is the magic number, but... This is a huge but...
Having 4 in one unit doesn't work in practice when you have to consider: -it has worked very well in practice in dozens of games for me!
- That you are putting too many eggs in one basket and cannot spread fire across other targets. -spreading fire will rarely be beneficial if you look at the maths.
- That if your Ark blows up, you could lose the entire unit. -If the ark explodes you will on average loose 0.5 Crpteks (thats without factoring in a rerolled save) so not reaaly an issue.
- That you are a much bigger threat than several smaller units.
Necrons, more than any other army, are about threat management. We can spam more big threats than most other armies and we have the resilience to back it up.
Synergy is also key and while we have things in our lists that grant re-rolls to hit (Stalkers), the amount of shots hitting will generally mean we squeeze dmg through... or so he said.
Personally, would I put a Chronotek in with 4 Lanceteks?
Yes I would, if I took units of Lanceteks. After seeing them in practice, I certainly wouldn't take them. -I find them amazing in practice
Lanceteks are better in two ofs inside small units of warriors in Ghost Arks for three reasons:
- They are scoring.
- Warriors on foot with 2 Lanceteks are too fragile to use. -They are roughly equal to 7 space marines on foot so i disagree
- They are mobile Gunboats that can pop a transport and then chew through the insides.
Well the current maths war was mostly over how many Lances to put with a Chronometron when not in a warrior squad.
I do disagree with some of your point here though (counter arguments in bold).
Most importantly I think deciding between lances spread out in warriors or together in a court mostly comes down to what else is in your list. If you need more scoring units thats a big plus for warriors but if you need anti tank after taking lots of immortals the court is the way to go;
The warriors are paying 67pts per lance (assuming 2 per squad without SP) or 125 with an ark.
The 5 man Lance chrono court costs 36pts per lance (counting Chrono as another lance even though it is much better) or 59 with an ark.
Having said all this though I am fairly sure that both types of unit are better off without an Ark! They are MEQs who will be most likely opperating at range from inside terrain under cover of Solar Pulses- 115 pts is too much to spend unless its an AV13 spam list or you lack a sufficient number of other threatening units.
The other thing about spreading your lanceteks around into warrior units is it gives more survivability to your scoring troops. Let's say they get blown out of their GA and shot down to a man. Without the lanceteks, that unit is gone and finished. With them, there is still a chance the lanceteks will stand back up, and since they are part of that unit, they still score. It has made the difference between winning and losing a game for me.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote:Im sorry Mr Turner I dont want to be too confrontational but you have got this completeley wrong and I had to facepalm when reading you post near the top of this page.
I think your problem is that your looking for the best chance for your chronometron reroll to be a positive result so obviously you want to be rerolling a 2+ ideally. This is NOT how to make most efficient use of the Chrono.
As I said before the proper maths for the lance court is very long winded so im not going to post it here. However there is an easy way to think about it that may help you:
If you use your chronometron to reroll the to hit roll you have wasted 5 points. This is because an extra lance would have given you the same effect for 5 points cheaper.
If you reroll a penetration roll your Chronometron is effectivly an Eldritch Lance that hit automatically.
If you reroll the damage table roll your Chronometron is effectivly an Eldritch Lance that hit and penetrated automatically
A weapon that auto hits and auto pens a tank for 40pts is really good and the more lances you have the better the chance there is of getting as far as the pen roll.
Don't worry about the confrontational thing, we get on each other's nerves 'cause it's the internet and we can't see how awesome we each are.
The only real maths that I posted - 11% hit/pen/destroyed naked lance, 24% hit/pen/destroyed chrono-assisted lance - are correct, Moose. They're predicated on the assumption you *will* reroll a miss or non-pen. Of course if you hit and penetrate without using the Chrono, absolutely - we're in a better situation. But nobobdy's arguing that's not the case.
It sounds like you might be saying that, with a multiple lance unit, you'd want to let misses go and save your re-rolls for pen and damage for those lances that do hit. If that's the case calculating the delta efficiency is pretty simple, tell me what your "rule" is (number of lances, re-roll guidelines) and I'll happily differentiate the odds of target destruction for you. (Ie, difference between your reroll guidelines and the "default" of rerolling the to-hits if they fail.)
i agree that calculating the odds for chrono scenarios are really hairy, we're ignoring a lot of things and making the notorious "simplifying assumptions". I intentionally ignored opportunity cost of early rerolls, ie, lost opportunity to make later rerolls, b/c it was going to be complex and it "felt" like a saved to-hit would equal a reroll on the next level etc. But proving that mathematically is an entirely different deal, we can do so.
I would say it entirely depends on how you are building your list. The lists I run now don't even use A. Barges. When you get to 2k and are only spending 270pts in your heavy slot you really are free to go a little crazy with other supporting elements.
It sounds like you might be saying that, with a multiple lance unit, you'd want to let misses go and save your re-rolls for pen and damage for those lances that do hit. If that's the case calculating the delta efficiency is pretty simple, tell me what your "rule" is (number of lances, re-roll guidelines) and I'll happily differentiate the odds of target destruction for you. (Ie, difference between your reroll guidelines and the "default" of rerolling the to-hits if they fail.)
Yes, letting misses go and saving the reroll as long as possible is my "rule" (except in the examples I mentioned in my last post).
When rolling to hit its always better to have an extra shot instead of a reroll (two guns is better than one twin-linked gun). So if rerolling to hit was the best use of the Chronometron then it would never be worth taking over an extra lance.
@Puscifer; I cant give you a better AT unit in the codex and I cant give you a better way to protect them. I purchased a Ghost Ark for that very purpose. However having used Lance Courts both in and out of Arks I dont feel like its necessary for them to have one most of the time.
It sounds like you might be saying that, with a multiple lance unit, you'd want to let misses go and save your re-rolls for pen and damage for those lances that do hit. If that's the case calculating the delta efficiency is pretty simple, tell me what your "rule" is (number of lances, re-roll guidelines) and I'll happily differentiate the odds of target destruction for you. (Ie, difference between your reroll guidelines and the "default" of rerolling the to-hits if they fail.)
Yes, letting misses go and saving the reroll as long as possible is my "rule" (except in the examples I mentioned in my last post).
When rolling to hit its always better to have an extra shot instead of a reroll (two guns is better than one twin-linked gun). So if rerolling to hit was the best use of the Chronometron then it would never be worth taking over an extra lance.
Wait, no, bolded part, that's just wrong. Rerolling to hit *IS* the best use of the Chronometron, it corrects the "worst case", unluckiest result 2/3 of the time and gives you something that can still result in success. Seriously, we need to crunch numbers here, but we need an alternative "rule" to follow on rerolls. Mine is, "reroll misses". Yours is, what, that's what I'm asking.
Say we have two lances and a chrono. Say we have the rule, "wait as long as possible to reroll". So, if we miss twice, we'd reroll one. If we hit one and miss one, we'd let it go. From then on, we reroll anything. If we hit twice, obviously nothing to reroll and we "move the rule forward", ie, if we then pen one and miss one, we let it go. Etc, etc. We know the results are going to be better than the 11% naked, but I think they'll be worse than the 24% "reroll early" rule.
I managed to work one ghost ark into my list, not just for protection but for the additional mobility for the unit.
Lets say for the sake of this argument that both units get the same roll for their run and it can be ignored.
6 inch move
vrs
12 inch move
3 inch pivot
2 inches(plus base so three inches)
18
Add on run and suddenly that unit of warriors is almost two objectives away.
Now I only run one but the added mobility combined with the defensive nature really gives that warrior unit with two lances a large threat range.
For the other unit I just run em on foot and if I think my opponent is going to shoot them a lot I give them stealth and go to ground if need be.
Now if that unit of warriors gets whipped out and one of the crypteks stands back up I can use the ghost ark to refill the unit. Now I am back up to two lances firing that turn.
If there is only the Crytek left, can the Ghost Ark rebuild the warriors from that unit?
I thought there would have to be at least one warrior left for that to happen.
That is just for reanimation protocols where it says a character is not enough for the unit to reanimate.
However when a court member joins a unit they are for all intents and purposes a member of that unit, thats why they still count as troops. The Ghost ark adds back models to a warrior unit, not warrior models to a warrior unit
Randall Turner wrote: Wait, no, bolded part, that's just wrong. Rerolling to hit *IS* the best use of the Chronometron, it corrects the "worst case", unluckiest result 2/3 of the time and gives you something that can still result in success. Seriously, we need to crunch numbers here, but we need an alternative "rule" to follow on rerolls. Mine is, "reroll misses". Yours is, what, that's what I'm asking.
.
I dont know how else to explain this to you. Can you not see that having an extra Destructek with a lance will always be better than a Eternitek with Chronometron if you only use the reroll on the to hit. 1 extra shot or 1 reroll to hit = no contest.
Do the math if you want. If you do discover that the Chronometron is best used on the to hit roll (you wont) then we can all forget about using it with Lances ever again.
Randall Turner wrote: Wait, no, bolded part, that's just wrong. Rerolling to hit *IS* the best use of the Chronometron, it corrects the "worst case", unluckiest result 2/3 of the time and gives you something that can still result in success. Seriously, we need to crunch numbers here, but we need an alternative "rule" to follow on rerolls. Mine is, "reroll misses". Yours is, what, that's what I'm asking..
I dont know how else to explain this to you. Can you not see that having an extra Destructek with a lance will always be better than a Eternitek with Chronometron if you only use the reroll on the to hit. 1 extra shot or 1 reroll to hit = no contest.
Do the math if you want. If you do discover that the Chronometron is best used on the to hit roll (you wont) then we can all forget about using it with Lances ever again.
Moose, if we only use the reroll on the to-hit, it's because we missed. But most of the time we won't use it there because we won't miss. The whole reason a to-hit reroll is better, is because the to-hit roll usually succeeds. So in the rare case where we miss, the reroll will also usually succeed.
But the chrono improves the lancetek across the spectrum of results. The lancetek can get anything from a complete whiff to a hit/pen/kill, and the floating chrono reroll slides the whole range of results "up" towards a kill.
We know for a fact that a single lancetek with a chrono has a better chance of getting a kill than two lanceteks. .24 vs. .20 The math there is pretty simple.**
The problem is that if we look at three lanceteks vs. two and a chrono, or two and a chrono with different reroll rules, the combinatorial expansion of probability branches makes the math tedious. No one calculation is hard, there's just a bloody lot of different possible situations. it's about an hour of work. <sigh> If I do it, I'll stick it in another thread and label it.
** - (I'm pretty sure two lanceteks have a better chance of doing some damage than a lance/chrono, but the original reason I was looking at this was Imotekh's unit which *has* to have a chrono, and I was noticing that the attached lancetek seemed to be doing better than my gut expected.)
I agree, however I find that I would not put a lancetek in Imoteks unit, I think some sort of protective cryptek would be better. Maybe a tremortek or a veiltek. Tremor makes them much harder to assault(crucible) or the veiltek makes it so they can get away.
Moose, if we only use the reroll on the to-hit, it's because we missed. But most of the time we won't use it there because we won't miss
.
Thats what I have been saying. To be clear; against tanks you only Reroll a to-hit if you score NO hits.
The whole reason a to-hit reroll is better,
Rerolling to hit against Tanks is NOT better. Once again, if you do this you are better off with an extra lance.
is because the to-hit roll usually succeeds. So in the rare case where we miss, the reroll will also usually succeed.
This right here is your problem. You are thinking that if you hit on a 3+ and pen on a 4+ you are best rerolling the 3+ because your Chrono will then have a 2/3 chance of being successful rather than 1/2 if you reroll the 4+. This is wrong.
Rerolling the 3+ gives a 33% increase in your chances hitting. Rerolling the 4+ gives a 50% increase in you chances of penetrating.
This combined with the very important fact that you only need 1 damage result against Tanks (as opposed to more-the-merrier on infantry) is why you save the reroll as late as possible, hopefully using it on the damage table.
I remember a GK character in the old codex (Captain Stern?) who gave you one reroll per turn (game?) that could be used on any dice from any unit and it was almost always saved for a reroll on a damage table roll, its just the best thing to reroll.
I dont know if this will help the chronometron discussion but instead of thinking of it as an individual roll, think of it as an investment towards each roll. Or even better do the math backwards instead of forwards.
Lets say armor 11
You need a 5 or 6 to destroy the vehicle, so that is reliably 3 rolls on the table should get you close(I know I am doing simple statistics here, if someone wants to do better ones go right ahead)
Now to get a single pen against armor 11 you need a 4+, so 2 hits should get you one result. So three results requires 6 hits.
Now 2/3s of the shots will hit, so it takes 9 shots to get the required 6 hits.
Now lets say we only need 2 results(+1 re-roll) to get the same destroyed result
Now you need to get 4 shots to get two penetration results
It requires 6 shots to get those 4 hits.
So the later the re-roll the more actual shots it represents that is why against vehicles it is better to do the re-roll as late as possible. However for infantry it is better to do it on the to hit roll unless it is a wraithlord.
A basic rule of thumb is that you want to save the re-roll for whatever roll has the lowest probability of success. So if you need 2's to wound you dont want to use it there, however if you need 5's to wound you want to save it for that roll
guys, I'm in the middle of shipping a stupid video game here and can't take the time to mathhammer this out. (again, it's not quick because there are so many branches considering two lances and a chrono and where to use the reroll.) I'll get to it, probably next week.
I don't get how people can complain of Necron lack of AT
Look at my 2000 point list:
Overlord x2
WS CCB
Royal Court x2
- 4 Lanceteks
- 1 Pulse Tek
Triarch Stalker x2
8 Immortals (x5)
- Tesla Carbines
Annihilation Barge x3
This list absolutely smashes vehicles, and the brick of 40 Immortals deal well with infantry. Tesla weapons are awesome, the ability to move and fire and the extra shots are fantastic.
The only weakness is the lack of AP in the army due to brining lots of Tesla Weapons and of course almost 0 assault element. But the whole army moves and shoots, so I just get within the 20"-24" sweet spot and then kite back as needed.
I like Necrons for the humanoid robots and vehicles, not for mechanical bugs, so assaulty units are pretty out of the question for me, considering Lychguard/Praetorians/Assault Courts/C'tan are all overcosted.
Fetterkey wrote:Cool army, but what do you do against Land Raiders?
If he 2 triarch stalkers have heat rays they are a heavy 2 melta(basically 2 multimelta shots each)
Griever wrote:
I like Necrons for the humanoid robots and vehicles, not for mechanical bugs, so assaulty units are pretty out of the question for me, considering Lychguard/Praetorians/Assault Courts/C'tan are all overcosted.
Wraiths are cheap and pretty nasty in CC, especially with whip coils and a 3++ invulnerable save.
Fetterkey wrote:Cool army, but what do you do against Land Raiders?
If he 2 triarch stalkers have heat rays they are a heavy 2 melta(basically 2 multimelta shots each)
And besides, you have to count the CCB's and they can also handle AV14.
You can't really say that list is a stellar AT list from raw kill power, though. Lots are much better, this is only two CC threats and 24 shots - some like the Stalker very very powerful, but half at S7 AP '-' not so much. Justin's 1850 Adepticon GK list has about 2x the AT firepower. For ours you have to wave your hands and go, "well, with night fight as a multiplier..." then you're getting somewhere.
My friends have informed me they are getting sick of the night fighting rules, I have use Imotekh a bunch, mainly for the steal initiative on a 4+ and for night fighting, the lightning as awesome as it can be some games is not reliable so I use it as a bonus rather than a plan.
I stopped using the pulse cryptecks because my friends were getting annoyed at having night fighting on their turn and not on mine, and in friendly games making the opponent come over the table can be fun but not always a good plan.
Necron can bring allot of AT weapons they just need to fit it in with the other things in their list, a list I was messing with that had 3 doom scythes(to test them when the model went up for pre-order to see if I wanted any.) in it made my opponent leave the game turn one because I blew up one of his precious land raiders full of khorne berserkers and hit 2 of his daemon princes(with the first shot).
Griever wrote:I don't get how people can complain of Necron lack of AT
Look at my 2000 point list:
Overlord x2
WS CCB
Royal Court x2
- 4 Lanceteks
- 1 Pulse Tek
Triarch Stalker x2
8 Immortals (x5)
- Tesla Carbines
Annihilation Barge x3
This list absolutely smashes vehicles, and the brick of 40 Immortals deal well with infantry. Tesla weapons are awesome, the ability to move and fire and the extra shots are fantastic.
The only weakness is the lack of AP in the army due to brining lots of Tesla Weapons and of course almost 0 assault element. But the whole army moves and shoots, so I just get within the 20"-24" sweet spot and then kite back as needed.
I like Necrons for the humanoid robots and vehicles, not for mechanical bugs, so assaulty units are pretty out of the question for me, considering Lychguard/Praetorians/Assault Courts/C'tan are all overcosted.
Wow. You seem to have the exact same approach as me when it comes to crons. My 1500 pts list is the same as what you have here but dropping 2 Tesla units, 1 stalker & 1 barge.
I have had no problems with anti-tank playing crons, I assume that people initially thought they lacked anti-tank due to their "multiple S8 shots unit" (essential in 5th ed) being hidden in the HQ section. Another reason for the perceived shortage of anti-tank may be due to the lack of melta weapons in the codex, but this can be made up for by Barge lords and scarabs.
I've been fawning over those Doom Scythes and the idea of giving them tank hunter for giggles, instant hit STR 12 min (10str+1tankhunter+1die) just makes me giggle a lot.
I suppose it might not matter if everything's stuck in 
I'm going to put that comment into my signature if its ok with you.
Wow, can I see your list? 
) investigations as to what to buy next, even though money is telling me to buy spyders, I want to buy a unit of wraiths. They just seem to bulk up any army build I can think of.
with the barges. Being able to play three anni barges is awesome (and this is in fact why I play Zandy/Anrakyr combos - no wraiths, spyders and stalkers, 1 ![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
