I’ll start with the disclaimer. I do have a degree in Economics, but it’s been years since I graduated and I don’t really use it in my day to day job. So I’m sure some of you will pipe up with how I got some specific or another wrong, but it’s been awhile so take it easy.
So how can GW continue to raise prices? While it is true that some of us will buy less or quit altogether, they continue to raise prices every year at a rate beyond inflation. How can they do that and still be profitable year after year? I’ve seen a lot of posts saying “It’s simply economics, if you lower price, you sell more,” and while that may be true, the way it actually works is much more complex than that.
It comes down to an economic principle called price elasticity of demand. What this means is that some products are considered elastic while others are more inelastic. An elastic product is one where as the price increases, the overall revenue ($) goes down. Think of this like butter. If the price of butter increases, you buy olive oil instead and don’t buy butter (an imperfect example, but I think you get the idea). A perfectly elastic product would be one that if there is any change in price the quantity goes to zero. Lots of items in our day to day lives are considered elastic, especially ones with lots of alternatives.
Now an inelastic product is something that even if the price increases, the drop in quantity is not enough to offset the revenue increase from the price increase. Gasoline is a classic example of this. As the price of gas goes up, people may buy less, but the overall revenue from sales of gasoline either increase or stay the same. A perfectly inelastic product is one that no matter the change in price, the quantity doesn’t change. Luxury goods are usually considered inelastic. If the price of a Lexus goes up 10%, overall revenue of Lexus’ either goes up or stays the same.
Wargaming models are generally considered luxury goods. They aren’t a necessity, there aren’t a lot of substitutions. and gamers are generally pretty brand loyal. Wargaming models, in particular warhammer models, are inelastic. So if GW raises the price of everything by 10%, they may see a decline in the total quantity sold, but not in the overall revenue of their products.
Now, since no product is perfectly inelastic, there comes a point in every product where the increase in price does not mean an increase in revenue. GW is operating under the assumption (and probably rightly so) that they have not hit that threshold yet. Until GW’s price increase does not correspond to an increase in sales, they have no reason NOT to increase prices. It pisses a lot of us off (myself included), it prices some people out of the hobby (I’m getting close there), but until it actually affects their bottom line, it makes economic sense (maybe not marketing sense, but that’s another topic), to continue to raise prices.
Hope that helps clear up the reasoning behind GW's price increases, now let's all stop buying stuff so they hit that threshold!
I fear that if the Australian market is still profitable for GW at their local prices, then that just sets a whole new scale of potential price growth for them to aim for in the rest of the world. I wont be surprised to see continual annual adjustments until Australia hits the limit of elasticity, and the rest of the world reaches Australia's current price points.
Well the strength of Australia's dollar is a relatively new phenomenon. And the average income of an Australian is higher than the average income of a US citizen, so I don't think your prices are going down anytime soon.
And don't they pay more for everything down under? Like isn't a video game $60US but $100Aus?
I dont know man, but im done with the, other than some very iconical or particular min, say heroes or big monsters, i simply do not by GW any more. There are way too many fantasy alternatives out there.
I plan to redo my entire Empire army, i have crunched the numbers, buying historical 28mm models will cost me around 150 dollars for a well beyond 2000 points army. And i include some flavor GW kits like wizards and extra bits for conversions.
Rulebooks i can just get them of the net, as some chinese friend can provide for other copies.
Let me write it again 1 2000+ empire army on 3rd party manufacturers minis iquals 2 new storm talons.
I'm inclined to agree with you. It may be that there are enough alternatives out there (mantic, historicals, etc) that GW's price increases will result in lower revenue, but I don't think we are quite there yet.
For the record I own about 80 Mantic ghouls. Cost me about $80US. Buying that many GW ghouls would have cost more than double (and I like the Mantic ones more!).
Ozymandias wrote:Well the strength of Australia's dollar is a relatively new phenomenon. And the average income of an Australian is higher than the average income of a US citizen, so I don't think your prices are going down anytime soon.
And don't they pay more for everything down under? Like isn't a video game $60US but $100Aus?
I posted this Url because there has been a decline in video game sales for a while now, due to the high cost of this sort of entertainment.
and people like to make comparisons to video games and GW products.
I have been holding back on my IP's as well because of the economic climate.
I do not carry stock in my portfolio. To me, the stock market it is a from of legalized gambling with rules that are different in every global region. I believe that It is not that difficult to manipulate the value of the stock at hand and generally it is the small guy that gets the short end of the stick.
To end this posting I do agree with the OP's comment.
Sadly I have now been priced out of GW, luckily I just finished my GK army, sadly I was going to buy a LR next month to round it out and give me more options.
I have mixed emotions in that I have had a 6 year relationship with GW but now it's time to part ways.
Today I went into the game store And picked up a few war machine models and will be getting into Dust as well.
darefsky wrote:Sadly I have now been priced out of GW, luckily I just finished my GK army, sadly I was going to buy a LR next month to round it out and give me more options.
I have mixed emotions in that I have had a 6 year relationship with GW but now it's time to part ways.
Today I went into the game store And picked up a few war machine models and will be getting into Dust as well.
Edited twice for autocorrect
I totally feel how you are bro.. I dont plan on buying GW stuff, I reckon the price increase will make me focus on painting 20K+ in point of orks.. lmao.. I have a nice circle of orboros that I can field at anytime also..
darefsky wrote:Sadly I have now been priced out of GW, luckily I just finished my GK army, sadly I was going to buy a LR next month to round it out and give me more options.
I have mixed emotions in that I have had a 6 year relationship with GW but now it's time to part ways.
Today I went into the game store And picked up a few war machine models and will be getting into Dust as well.
Edited twice for autocorrect
I totally feel how you are bro.. I dont plan on buying GW stuff, I reckon the price increase will make me focus on painting 20K+ in point of orks.. lmao.. I have a nice circle of orboros that I can field at anytime also..
20k of orks!!! gawd I got bored with green, red, black after "only" 3500pts
This is how I see the "Australia problem". The Aussie dollar is, compared to fairly recent times, spectacularly high. Retailers have chosen not to reflect that and still charge $20-$30 for DVD titles, $100-$120 for video game titles, etc. as they did back when it was perhaps justified (exchange rates-shipping etc.).
Now our retailers are having major issues with sales because people are - shock horror - ordering online. And they are on our TVs telling us to support our true blue local companies who have done nothing to deserve our support by charging significantly more than something is worth. Couple this with the fact that many of the big chains opened up a ton of new stores prior to the AU$ rising, and you can see why they are struggling.
The gap between what we pay for GW compared with the US is pretty similar % wise to the gap between games/movies etc. so it's clearly GW thinking that if we pay more for those items, the same will ring true for theirs. It's true to a degree, but there are still online non-.au retailers out there who will ship to Australia (despite GW efforts to prevent this). I think GW would likely be finding the same issues over here that other retailers are. One of the biggest surprises for me after getting back into the hobby after a 15+ year break as how few GW stores there are now compared to back then, when it seemed like there was one in every major suburb. Now they are moving them outside of the main shopping malls (for rent reasons I'd imagine), and there are, at a guess, half the stores that I remember there being previously.
(We shared a cab once, quite recently in fact... I'll let you draw your own conclusions )
I think what's great about what you've shown here, is that from a pure economic standpoint, what GW is doing does indeed make sense. I believe it is the marketing issues that most of us have been pointing to as far as why it doesn't make sense. The goliath is weak, and inviting the davids to wind up their slings... but that doesn't mean that what they're doing doesn't make economic (at least short-term) sense.
darefsky wrote:Sadly I have now been priced out of GW, luckily I just finished my GK army, sadly I was going to buy a LR next month to round it out and give me more options.
I have mixed emotions in that I have had a 6 year relationship with GW but now it's time to part ways.
Today I went into the game store And picked up a few war machine models and will be getting into Dust as well.
Edited twice for autocorrect
I totally feel how you are bro.. I dont plan on buying GW stuff, I reckon the price increase will make me focus on painting 20K+ in point of orks.. lmao.. I have a nice circle of orboros that I can field at anytime also..
20k of orks!!! gawd I got bored with green, red, black after "only" 3500pts
lmao sad thing is I still trade for more.. LMAO backon topic.. After seeing one post of dakka, about gw not raising prices I was happy to see, then this.. It totally sucked to hear, then a local FLGS confirmed it.. There worried that there going to get hit hard with the increase..
Ok, LEt me put this down. The clerance bine today at my FLGS was full of 40k stuff, even baneblades for 60$
In all the time i have played there there has never been 40k clearance.
Seriously. He is pricing this stuff down because nothing is selling.
The stuff he sold hasnt sold for a year, and he rarely sells a battleforce/battallion.
It just, with tax here paint already runs to 4.50.
with tax, SR will cost you 100$
It just seems sad.
I am not a financial expert.
BUT , if we look at the GW plc turn over for the last few years its been practicaly static, despite increses over the rate of inflation.
And the last report showed a slight DROP in turn over, ( if you adjust for currency fluctuation.)
The next report out in June , will show how elastic the GW product actualy is....
And as there is far more chioce avaiable for those NOT tied to useing a GW store. The sales volumes are going to continue to decline IMO.
(GW plc has lost over 40% sales volumes in the last 7 years.)
I am not a financial expert.
BUT , if we look at the GW plc turn over for the last few years its been practicaly static, despite increses over the rate of inflation.
And the last report showed a slight DROP in turn over, ( if you adjust for currency fluctuation.)
Im far from one too but isnt it profit they are really looking at which is different to turnover?
You could have lower TO but still be profitable (perhaps they closed more stores or let employees go or switched from metal etc).
Ozymandias wrote:Well the strength of Australia's dollar is a relatively new phenomenon. And the average income of an Australian is higher than the average income of a US citizen, so I don't think your prices are going down anytime soon.
And don't they pay more for everything down under? Like isn't a video game $60US but $100Aus?
True but as far as GW goes, they appear to track local average salaries with their pricing. The small bit of research I did on the topic last year indicated that the big sellers (SM squads/Rhinos/Landraiders) all had a rough parity across the major currencies. So in each the cost of a SM squad was say 3.5hrs work x avg. hourly rate.
The problem (if it is such?) with the Austrailian hobbiest is that they have been able to take advantage of currency rates for huge saving, this has been the case for long enough that the impression that they are somehow being targeted has come about.
From a GW Pov blocking European retailers from shipping to Aus helps their trading partners in that region (FLGs & GWAus). They need to do this because a) there is a certain moral (possibly legal) obligation not to undercut the Aussie FLGs and b) this is most important, GW expand/attract new custom through retail outlets. High street presence is what works for them. To expand the Aussie market they need toys in shops.
Anecdotally I can remember when it was about $4 to the pound (20 odd years ago), I think I'm right in saying that Australian prices have tracked from that point at the same rate as UK prices.
Me, I'm not too surprised l by this increase. The major lines have been increased by a huge margin in advance of new people coming in for 6th Edition (or so they hope?).
It should be pointed out that GW (and FW's) quality of product is going down the pan, too. Perceived value of the product is being reduced whilst the purchase price is being increased. After more than 25 years, I am now for the first time seriously eyeing up other products. Paulson's Robotech miniatures are beautiful, and I'd get into that in a heartbeat (plus I love mecha). Dust Tactics / Warfare, also like that. Black Scorpion's cowboys (which I painted a few of for a mate and THOROUGHLY enjoyed). Heck, I'm even considering starting a 28mm Wars of the Roses army. But for GW, I think it'll just be for commissions now. It mostly has been for the last 3 or 4 years anyway. Their humour in design is all but gone, there's very little character in it any more - it all feels very much like it's designed to get money, rather than to have fun with.
At the FW open day, there was a stall selling old GW stuff in Bugman's, including some of the old Troll games (Trollz in the Pantry I think it was). The guy manning the stores said something like 'Yeah, these were made when Games Workshop was a very different company...'
Anyone who remembers (or managed to score one of these on eBay) knows how right he was.
Both to some extent. CAD designed kits are frequently quite sloppy/lazy (check the interior of a Valkyrie). Don't get me wrong the plastics production methods are very sophisticated - some stuff is superbly *engineered*. But this doesn't equate to a great design overall. Character models have lost a lot of... character. Sure, some of the sculpts are sharper, but there's less comedy, less drama. Everyone is angry, all of the time. Everthing must be COVERED IN SKULLS.
And then there's Finecast. Which just needs that sentence.
Well, one thing I can say is that all of this will be good for the industry as a whole. Although I go to a club where a lot of the members enjoy playing new games, it seems obvious that in a lot of cases players have stuck exclusively to one game and system. And for the most part this is sensible as the money investment involved (not to mention the time spent building and painting) really only allows time for one system.
But, I think really it shouldn't be an 'either or' situation. And now I can imagine most people keeping their existing 40k/WFB armies, which they will continue to use, but rather than starting that new WFB or 40k project they will look elsewhere. For me, I was forced into this situation a couple of years ago, living in a country with no GW stockists the international trade embargo came in and so I was simply not able to buy a WFB Orc army I had planned. So, instead I took the £200 I had set aside, had a read on Dakka and other websites like it, and looked through Maelstroms product list on the right hand side of the page at what took my fancy.
The end result is that I have tried out several other games, and ended up settling on Infinity. And the wonderful thing? There are some great other games systems out there, which I might not otherwise have tried. People enjoy the familiar and staying with what they know, and it can take a big push to move them away from that. For me, it was not being able to buy GW product that pushed me elsewhere. I am sure that this round of price rises, like in previous years, will have a similar effect for a lot of people.
notprop wrote:True but as far as GW goes, they appear to track local average salaries with their pricing. The small bit of research I did on the topic last year indicated that the big sellers (SM squads/Rhinos/Landraiders) all had a rough parity across the major currencies. So in each the cost of a SM squad was say 3.5hrs work x avg. hourly rate.
Yes but what kind of prices do other miniature wargames go for? I would be interested to know if the likes of WarMachine/Infinity/Flames of War etc. have prices similar to those in the US/EU, or they are similarly inflated? If so, it would be an even bigger argument for looking at something as an alternative to GW.
In theory - I'm no economic boff though - but couldn't they not raise the prices, and therefore sell more/the same overall, make similar revenue and not piss the customer off?
A few things:
1) They made a loss in Australia last year. A combination of exchange rates and price hikes, but they lost a lot.
2) There are many alternative wargames. No-one else makes Warhammer, and GW (as the primary wargames advertiser) does their best to convince people that they are the only one, but there are a lot of alternatives.
And the major one:
3) I don't know what the economic theory is about 'social' products, but I think that GW has a enormous social/network effect that it is losing.
People wanting to get into wargaming like the idea of GW, because there is basically a guarantee that there will be people playing the game near you. You'll find opponents and clubs. And wargames are something that fundamentally requires opponents.
So every time they lose a customer, they essentially devalue their product because it is less likely that you'll be able to use it. No matter how price inelastic the last customer is, they will stop buying because the product has no value.
You can see this effect hugely in social networking sites or multiplayer computer games
3) I don't know what the economic theory is about 'social' products, but I think that GW has a enormous social/network effect that it is losing.
People wanting to get into wargaming like the idea of GW, because there is basically a guarantee that there will be people playing the game near you. You'll find opponents and clubs. And wargames are something that fundamentally requires opponents.
So every time they lose a customer, they essentially devalue their product because it is less likely that you'll be able to use it. No matter how price inelastic the last customer is, they will stop buying because the product has no value.
You can see this effect hugely in social networking sites or multiplayer computer games
I help run a gaming club which was founded by off GW players fe dup of playing at the store. When we first started 95% of the people there were playing GW games, thats changed a lot recently. We have a lot of magic and infinity now and games like firestorm, warmachine/hordes and malifaux are being played more often. I think this will only grow as you are no longer guranteed a GW game at our club.
After the last price hike I didn't stop buying GW, I just stopped buying it from them. Started using ebay and third party sites, I've only been able to legitamise my continued purchases by selling other hobby stuff (old consoles, anime).
I'm going to have a sit down and have a real good think about where I stand but in all honesty this new hike won't probably stop me buying but it will be a lot less often (from other sources).
notprop wrote:True but as far as GW goes, they appear to track local average salaries with their pricing. The small bit of research I did on the topic last year indicated that the big sellers (SM squads/Rhinos/Landraiders) all had a rough parity across the major currencies. So in each the cost of a SM squad was say 3.5hrs work x avg. hourly rate.
Yes but what kind of prices do other miniature wargames go for? I would be interested to know if the likes of WarMachine/Infinity/Flames of War etc. have prices similar to those in the US/EU, or they are similarly inflated? If so, it would be an even bigger argument for looking at something as an alternative to GW.
Not sure mate but i do know that Battlefront (makers of FoW) did do a price correction exercise across the globe a couple of years back to even out discrepancies. I seem to remember the effec was a price rise in Europe, but BF are recognised as expensive in 15mm but few people complain about that in the same way few complain about their poor casting quality.
Further from a purely economic PoV GW don't compare too well with those competitors you list. While PP/Corvus Belli/BF do sell abroad thy do not operate in foreign territorie and that is the difference here. GW have foreign based HQ/manufacture/shipping/reta'arms all over and there for at closer to the local currency as a result and all of these must be covered as an on costs. The others have is international shipping but that's about it assuming they do not use distributors.
Without wishing to defend GWs price point in anyway my question whenever discussing this is also why the others charge comparable per model prices?
Ozymandias wrote:I’ll start with the disclaimer. I do have a degree in Economics, but it’s been years since I graduated and I don’t really use it in my day to day job. So I’m sure some of you will pipe up with how I got some specific or another wrong, but it’s been awhile so take it easy.
So how can GW continue to raise prices? While it is true that some of us will buy less or quit altogether, they continue to raise prices every year at a rate beyond inflation. How can they do that and still be profitable year after year? I’ve seen a lot of posts saying “It’s simply economics, if you lower price, you sell more,” and while that may be true, the way it actually works is much more complex than that.
It comes down to an economic principle called price elasticity of demand. What this means is that some products are considered elastic while others are more inelastic. An elastic product is one where as the price increases, the overall revenue ($) goes down. Think of this like butter. If the price of butter increases, you buy olive oil instead and don’t buy butter (an imperfect example, but I think you get the idea). A perfectly elastic product would be one that if there is any change in price the quantity goes to zero. Lots of items in our day to day lives are considered elastic, especially ones with lots of alternatives.
Now an inelastic product is something that even if the price increases, the drop in quantity is not enough to offset the revenue increase from the price increase. Gasoline is a classic example of this. As the price of gas goes up, people may buy less, but the overall revenue from sales of gasoline either increase or stay the same. A perfectly inelastic product is one that no matter the change in price, the quantity doesn’t change. Luxury goods are usually considered inelastic. If the price of a Lexus goes up 10%, overall revenue of Lexus’ either goes up or stays the same.
Wargaming models are generally considered luxury goods. They aren’t a necessity, there aren’t a lot of substitutions. and gamers are generally pretty brand loyal. Wargaming models, in particular warhammer models, are inelastic. So if GW raises the price of everything by 10%, they may see a decline in the total quantity sold, but not in the overall revenue of their products.
Now, since no product is perfectly inelastic, there comes a point in every product where the increase in price does not mean an increase in revenue. GW is operating under the assumption (and probably rightly so) that they have not hit that threshold yet. Until GW’s price increase does not correspond to an increase in sales, they have no reason NOT to increase prices. It pisses a lot of us off (myself included), it prices some people out of the hobby (I’m getting close there), but until it actually affects their bottom line, it makes economic sense (maybe not marketing sense, but that’s another topic), to continue to raise prices.
Hope that helps clear up the reasoning behind GW's price increases, now let's all stop buying stuff so they hit that threshold!
I disagree with your conclusion that GW is inelastic. The fact that they are not a necessity already poses a great problem to that. If you look at wargaming being just GW, then yes they are inelastic within their own stores, where they require their models. They force a monopoly market within themselves, but they cannot control what happens at your house or at your friendly local gaming store. If you consider alternative models, they are abundant. If you consider alternative games, they are abundant as well. If you consider other forms of entertainment, well you see. It depends on how you consider your sample to define it's alternatives. It is simplest to think of it in competition with every other wargame, in which case there are tons of alternatives and substitutes.
If you consider loyalty, that is probably the strongest part they have. If you have an army, it's hard to get out. If you love the universe like most of us do, it's painful to leave. However, that does not mean that habits may not change. When i worked at GW and got the 50% discount, I was always buying stuff because the perceived value was greater than the cost and I was left with a rather large consumer surplus which made me happy. Now, I find it hard to justify the prices as the perceived value is less than the cost. I have a long term goal of having an entire chapter, but that goal is fading in the face of the price. Other armies I'd like to make have become less attractive. My overall spending has drastically lowered. While anecdotal evidence is hardly a rule, my behavior follows the rational model.
The other problem that comes with the inflation shocks they do. Everyone here knows they happen like clockwork, but there's many problems with the way they do it that makes it unexpected. They make 0 announcements themselves, we have to get the information through back channels more or less, which makes this technically unexpected inflation. No logic to what is increased and what isn't. No anticipatable increase. Nobody could have guessed that only 2 tyranids would get a $2 increase and that the storm raven and land raider would jump up $10+. The products chosen and the amounts raised are not easily discernible which causes shocks to their market. The market doesn't like shocks and so we see people on the forums react in the ways they do. GW is lucky that most of it is just grumblings, but they still lose customers and sales.
While they may be getting more revenue per box now, they are simultaneously losing sales. This is one reason that they haven't been getting growth.
However when you adjust for inflation to 2010 value (using average annual inflation) real revenue:
2010: $127m
2011: $119m (average 3.42%)
2012: $120m (current average 2.69%)
This is bad. And it gets worse. They have higher fixed costs now that they have 1 man stores. You can't layoff extra staff anymore to cut costs, they've already cut them as low as they can. So instead of having a variable cost, they now have a fixed cost when it comes to labor as every store manager is tied to physical capital with a lease. SO they've lost revenue, they're lost sales and they've lost flexibility. GW is really doing bad.
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notprop wrote:Without wishing to defend GWs price point in anyway my question whenever discussing this is also why the others charge comparable per model prices?
PP metals are about the same price as GW plastics and in some cases cheaper. Squad of infantry vs infantry PP is higher price but dreadnaught vs jack, jack is cheaper. Metal PP blisters run around the same as GW plastic blisters and cheaper than finecast. PP cinerators/bastions are comparable in size to termies and are cheaper with more detail. Battle engines and collossals compare to Forgeworld prices depending on which models you pick from (their prices are all over the place relative to size).
pretty good OP. I will say, everybody I know who plays 40k or fantasy who is complaining about the prices, complains about everything GW anyway, and most of them aren't working on an army..they are done and don't buy anything anyway.
If it's going to cost me $700 to do my next army (Chaos SM probably), now it's going to cost me $800. If I want to do it, I'm still going to, if the hobby is already too expensive for my economic situation...this is just the excuse I need to not do it.
Honestly, a nice dinner out for me and my wife costs $80. Going to the movies with snacks cost $40. It takes $120 to fill up my F150. Things are getting more expensive, just because our wages aren't keeping up with this...I don't intend to take it out on an already expensive hobby. The american economy is failing, the cost of manufacturing and transport go up..goods go up.
Everybody on here who says "This is the last straw, I'll never buy anything again" were just looking for an excuse to not buy IMO.
that being said, damn glad I bought my 4 rhinos and 1 LR for my army earlier this year...lol
LunaHound wrote:Aren't the store's up keep cost and staff wages part of the turn over amount?
If it is, then after all the store and staff cuts, GW is still at break even? That means they lost money.
If it isnt, then nvm.
I don't think the stores are really money makers, they are there to recruit people and hopefully at least break even.....then those people buy GW stuff everywhere for the next 10 years, not just at GW. I think if GW relied on their stores as their income stream, they'd have been out of business a couple of years back.
All this is well and good (I have a degree is business so I've taken several economics courses), but at the end of the day I draw the line at paying $60 for a toy tank.
I just bought Diablo 3 for that much and it's going to entertain me a hell of a lot more. Not to mention, I can buy just diablo 3 and enjoy it. In order to enjoy that $60 predator I have buy several other hideously overpriced models as well. Having one predator is useless.
I think they've just crossed the ceiling. Having to pay $500+ just to play their game is preposterous (that's rules, paints, modelling stuff, miniatures). And they're target market is supposedly teenage boys? My parents used to laugh me out of the room when a box of space marines cost $25.
LunaHound wrote:Aren't the store's up keep cost and staff wages part of the turn over amount?
If it is, then after all the store and staff cuts, GW is still at break even? That means they lost money.
If it isnt, then nvm.
I don't think the stores are really money makers, they are there to recruit people and hopefully at least break even.....then those people buy GW stuff everywhere for the next 10 years, not just at GW. I think if GW relied on their stores as their income stream, they'd have been out of business a couple of years back.
No, Im fully aware the stores acts as a sphere of influence and nothing more.
What Im saying is, if GW trimed / saved bunch of money by closing shops and fire staff into 1 man stores, they should have saved tons of money,
and it should show on the report of the trim.
GW stores also generate turnover and margin since the recoup at full RRP.
I don't imagine that any GW store is allowed to run at anything other than a profit. Ergo why unsuccessful ones are closed or moved.
Regarding cost cutting generally this is the first move by all companies day one of a downturn. That annual report stated that they had grown fat over the good times and were taking action to increase efficiencies, so store and job loses
notprop wrote:GW stores also generate turnover and margin since the recoup at full RRP.
I don't imagine that any GW store is allowed to run at anything other than a profit. Ergo why unsuccessful ones are closed or moved.
Regarding cost cutting generally this is the first move by all companies day one of a downturn. That annual report stated that they had grown fat over the good times and were taking action to increase efficiencies, so store and job loses
Actually, GW stores are run under the idea of growth. The upper management is always thumping it's chest about growth. I don't think I ever heard squat about profit or loss working there. I know for a fact that the place I worked had no chance of breaking even (overpriced mall location that catered to teen girls). Half the people walked in asking for gamestop or some other shop. The store was the mall's second information booth.
As for the one man store concept, as I pointed out in my big ass post (which seems to have gotten ignored, nothin new), they've hit rock bottom in terms of cutting costs. They have no more to cut and have limited choices when it comes to their capital. It's kind of like how the near zero interest rate is considered bad because it means you have one less tool to use.
Trasvi wrote:A few things:
1) They made a loss in Australia last year. A combination of exchange rates and price hikes, but they lost a lot.
2) There are many alternative wargames. No-one else makes Warhammer, and GW (as the primary wargames advertiser) does their best to convince people that they are the only one, but there are a lot of alternatives.
And the major one:
3) I don't know what the economic theory is about 'social' products, but I think that GW has a enormous social/network effect that it is losing.
People wanting to get into wargaming like the idea of GW, because there is basically a guarantee that there will be people playing the game near you. You'll find opponents and clubs. And wargames are something that fundamentally requires opponents.
So every time they lose a customer, they essentially devalue their product because it is less likely that you'll be able to use it. No matter how price inelastic the last customer is, they will stop buying because the product has no value.
You can see this effect hugely in social networking sites or multiplayer computer games
Well said. GW is getting smaller and smaller in Oz with ever passing year.
Its a social game and you need to have people to play against. It's so true that with every person that bails from the game, the more it hurts.
It's getting harder and harder to find games in my area, as there are less people playing.
While it may be true that they are making as much money now by increasing prices but selling less, it also means that their customer base is shrinking and that is a fatal slope for any business to be riding on.
Most of my friends have gone back to playing board games which for $80-$100 can provide pleanty of nights of entertainment for 4-6 people.
We all throw in about $20 bucks and buy a game. Wish they were playing 40K still but it has just got to expensive for some of them
Surtur wrote:I disagree with your conclusion that GW is inelastic. The fact that they are not a necessity already poses a great problem to that. If you look at wargaming being just GW, then yes they are inelastic within their own stores, where they require their models. They force a monopoly market within themselves, but they cannot control what happens at your house or at your friendly local gaming store. If you consider alternative models, they are abundant. If you consider alternative games, they are abundant as well. If you consider other forms of entertainment, well you see. It depends on how you consider your sample to define it's alternatives. It is simplest to think of it in competition with every other wargame, in which case there are tons of alternatives and substitutes.
If you consider loyalty, that is probably the strongest part they have.
Pretty much what I wanted to answer after reading the OP. I raised an eyebrow when Ozymandias mentioned luxury products as an example of inelastic goods, as they usually have a high number of substitutes available ; essential goods, on the other hand, are unanimously considered inelastic (you can only curb your consumption of gasoline or water so much, thus you'll have to accept price changes on those).
The rationale about relative inelasticity being the reason for repeated price hikes still stands. Indeed, the way you could say GW products are inelastic is if we assume its customers are extremely loyal and therefore do not consider other options as satisfying substitutes. It's already been mentioned what can make this true : great intellectual property, an established presence and worldwide community, relative quality of models.
However, they might be running into problems if we consider customer loyalty to be their best asset. It's no secret here that they are getting on the nerves of their "core" fanbase with an apparently increasing disregard, and some are quitting as a result. If we assume their main target is teenagers, they have quite a challenge on their hands if they want to retain their loyalty.
So unless they somehow "recruit" more mature customers than they lose, or unless they do manage to shape youngsters into long-term loyal clients, that key asset of theirs might be unravelling. Which means they're overestimating the inelasticity of their products.
Pure conjecture on my part, but their lingering first-mover advantage in the world of non-historical wargames (you could say they are to fantasy miniatures what Apple is to tablets) might be all that keeps them afloat today. I can't see them gaining ground at present, and the numbers seem to indicate they're losing some. As Surtur pointed out (thanks by the way, your post was not lost on me at least !), they're running out of easy solutions.
LunaHound wrote:Aren't the store's up keep cost and staff wages part of the turn over amount?
If it is, then after all the store and staff cuts, GW is still at break even? That means they lost money.
If it isnt, then nvm.
I don't think the stores are really money makers, they are there to recruit people and hopefully at least break even.....then those people buy GW stuff everywhere for the next 10 years, not just at GW. I think if GW relied on their stores as their income stream, they'd have been out of business a couple of years back.
No, Im fully aware the stores acts as a sphere of influence and nothing more.
What Im saying is, if GW trimed / saved bunch of money by closing shops and fire staff into 1 man stores, they should have saved tons of money,
and it should show on the report of the trim.
well, the prices go up every year...rent goes up every year....so growth is a must to break even. I would put out there that mall stores were actually money losers and had to be closed. And GW closes unprofitable 1 man stores, GW probably just made their business more profitable by closing stores that were bleeding money. I used to own a business and I'd imagine that Mall stores cost 30K a month in rent, with a full staff of 4 dudes (one lead making 50K, 3 redshirts making 90K)...that's $500,000 in cost. To me that means that GW has to sell a million dollars a year at a mall store to break even (I don't know their margin...maybe 750K?).
Warhammer is too much of a niche hobby to sell a million dollars a year in a typical mall. They would have to sell the entire store every other week. There aren't enough potential hobbyists who might be interested in our expensive ass nerd hobby....lol.
What shocks me most is that people will be up in arms that little plastic, resin and metal toys are going up in price and they cannot get as many, yet aren't protesting in the street about the insane increases in the cost of living. Energy costs, food, rent, taxes etc. are all far more important and many have got to the point where they are going without one of these things seen as essentials to try to cover the others.
However if you want a simple comment about said toys, the plastics and resins are made from byproducts of oil refining, if oil goes up in cost, which we have all seen it has then so will said products. As oil is not an infinite resource I think it's a moot point really. Maybe I'm just in one of those moods however...
Plus why just attack GW's prices? PP as many are very, very quick to point are also pricey (I decided to skip those despite some nice werewolves) and Avatars of War are also very expensive for characters, though in their case comparing the UK costs, import costs I'll let them off for those lovely sculpts I feel are worth that much.
What I would like to see if a large scale fantasy setting ruleset to compete with WHFB for the inevitable GW goes bust
Certainly necessities are inelastic, however my points about substitution and brand loyalty still hold. I can find some alternatives in the form of Mantic models, but if I want a space marine and a rhino, there aren't any cheaper alternatives out there.
In the end, GW is acting like their product is inelastic, and I wanted people to better understand the concept.
Ozymandias wrote:Certainly necessities are inelastic, however my points about substitution and brand loyalty still hold. I can find some alternatives in the form of Mantic models, but if I want a space marine and a rhino, there aren't any cheaper alternatives out there.
In the end, GW is acting like their product is inelastic, and I wanted people to better understand the concept.
Fair enough. You phrased it a bit odd and I speed read so I thought you were arguing in favor of GW. That said, if you narrow the market without considering alternatives as viable, of course it is going to seem inelastic, but that's not the case. GW is not the entire market and there are a fair number of growing alternatives from scibor, mantic, avatars of war and so on so I really don't think they have a lack of substitutions.
Food is inelastic. You need food and if the overall price of food goes up, you'll still pay it. Bananas are elastic. If the price of bananas goes up, you can get something else. GW is bananas.
I think it's a bit more than just elasticity at work in GW's thought process. I think they believe themselves a monopoly. It explains their attitude and behaviors too well. A monopoly focuses on revenue and profit, not efficiency, has no problems charging more and having a smaller market so long as they make more and strong arms competition to prevent it from entering the market. GW has all of these behaviors. Finecast maximized profits and came with price increases while using old capital they had. Their one man stores are rather overworked at times leaving their labor wanting in favor of reduced costs. Their price hikes have shrunk sales and market share while maximizing revenue per unit. They have leveled lawsuits and threats against other companies to protect "their" IP (raging heroes llamasu anyone?) and prevent them from competing. That's my opinion as to the reasoning behind GW's changes.
Ah, that's another possibility, indeed. Interesting, I hadn't considered that but it does make sense... Well, in so far as we consider they could delude themselves so much. I mean, I find the idea that they could consider themselves a monopoly mind-blowing (who in their right mind would, ffs ?) even though I've got to admit it's consistent with observable clues. In the end, the only effective monopoly they have is on their IP, and substitutes do exist.
If that's true, it bodes even more ill for them. The reality check will be nasty.
The only problem being I'm not a mantic fan tbh. I saw Alessios ranting about wanting a game HIS way where opponents HAVE to bow to his tournament driven mindset and instantly switched off. Plus Flicking through the rules when they were first available it seems that like GW they are looking to use only their own models not for example use any light cavalry for elves as unit x, the heavy ones thats unit y and so on. But at least it is a start, I hope other companies follow suit and produce a fantasy rules system where it can be skirmish to huge battle and one happens to be a ruleset I enjoy using and it catches on and doesn't dissapear .
To be fair , Kings Of War works just fine for narrative gaming.
(Most games that are written for competative play are far easier to adpt to your narrative needs in my experiance.)
KoW allows the game play to come from the players, rather than trying to script cinematic events that dont realy make sense, but clutter up the rules horribly..
If you are not keen on the models fair enough, there are loads of exellent fantasy minature manufacturers!
GW plc assume that thier loyal fan base is rich/stupid enough to pay whatever price they want to charge.
And have not noticed thier loyal fan base is shrinking rapidly year on year!
I was responding to the impression the previous poster had about Mantic wanting you to use only thier miantures.(I could have totaly misunderstood!)
I am sure they would prefer you to use some of thier minature and hobby product range.
BUT getting the games played by gamers and generating positive word of mouth appears to be far more important to Ronnie.
And I think he is right!
Lanrak wrote:I was responding to the impression the previous poster had about Mantic wanting you to use only thier miantures.(I could have totaly misunderstood!)
I am sure they would prefer you to use some of thier minature and hobby product range.
BUT getting the games played by gamers and generating positive word of mouth appears to be far more important to Ronnie.
And I think he is right!
Ozymandias wrote:
Wargaming models are generally considered luxury goods. They aren’t a necessity, there aren’t a lot of substitutions. and gamers are generally pretty brand loyal. Wargaming models, in particular warhammer models, are inelastic. So if GW raises the price of everything by 10%, they may see a decline in the total quantity sold, but not in the overall revenue of their products.
So essentially what you are saying is, Because GW can make the same amount of money by selling their product to fewer people, then why should they make it more accessable?
TheLionOfTheForest wrote:The only GW purchases I will be making will be 2nd hand from Ebay. GW's prices are absurd to begin with, this price hike feels more like a shakedown!
I am 30, married with a 16 month old, I can afford GW's products even less now then when I was 15 years old with a part time Job! When I was 15 making $8.50 an hour I could afford to buy 3 paint pots or 1 blister pack containing 2 models. At todays current minimum wage you would have to work for at least 2 hours to be able to afford 1 finecast (garbage) model. GW minis just aren't in the budget when you pay for a mortgage, car leases and other assorted living costs. $18.50 for 1 finecast model, $70+ for a Landraider ? I have also heard rumor that the codexes will be all hardcover now, so again they will cost more. Are you kidding me ? I dont know who GW thinks their market is but they have just narrowly cut their sales, which I suppose will mean more price increases down the road to make up for the decrease in sales.
This hurts our local gaming stores. Before I didnt mind paying a bit more than the amazon price for models so that I could support my store where I play. Now the stores will probably loose money as people decide to make their purchase off of the internet just to make their $$$ go a little further.
I brought a friend to my local store to try and get him back into 40K, he scoffed at the prices... I had to agree with him. And theses are the prices before the increase to come!
GW has opened the door to 3rd party companies selling miniatures that people will use in place of their own. They have opened the door further to people straight up copying their products with a simple mold making and casting (its really not hard at all). If I have to spend $2000 on a 2000 point army OR spend $2000 on pro quality mold making equipment and casting equipment more people will make the decision to just start making molds.
If I hadn't been collecting GW mini's for 18+ years I would not be getting into the hobby now.
I think this is pretty sad. Why raise the entry barrier to a game with an already high entry barrier?
As far as a solution.... Maybe GW can give independent retailers a significant wholesale discount so that people can still afford to support their local store. I mean GW can't even keep their own stores in business, if they hurt their 3rd party retailers how does that help the game, or the company, or the community?
A move like this, I cant understand. The miniature range has never been better with so many armies and models to choose from, GW has had success entering into the video game market and with a whole new line of paints of superior quality would seem to be indications of success?! If profits are down year to year, how about consolidating your position as a company, maybe decrease the range, DONT spring on new paints, and make the existing range CHEAPER! Move more product, surely the more you sell the more you produce, the cheaper your cost. Bring back the old miniature range in metal and have it be a cast on need basis, I wouldnt mind waiting 5 weeks to know I can get something I want at a decent and FAIR price. Bring back 2000 point army boxes with a significant price break. Dont package your army boxes with useless or underused vehicals or models because people will not buy them and the people that do will be annoyed when they find out they got duped ("ah gotcha.... that vehical is total garbage, you need this one at $55+ per"). Bring back the troop & transport box for our local stores, from what I understand they couldn't keep them on the shelves. Re-release ALL your PDF articles of all things you can build yourself.. the bunkers the tanks the scenery.... AND keep them archived for everyone to use. I mean come on GW, most of them we can find on some russian website anyway with a little hunting why be a jerk about it. What you think if you give us a print out cardstock PDF bunk we won't spend $45 on your plastic kit, well you are probably right maybe the plastic kit should be $30 instead......THESE are the reasons we used to LOVE you GW.... Things just aren't the same anymore... Yes your models are more smoking hot then ever, they just are too costly.
Is this price increase caused by GW eating it on FineCast returns?
Or was the Australian pricing just a test to see if people would just pay more for the same product and due to the test being "successful" that pricing instituted to everyone?
I for one am more upset than angry, as I simply just cannot afford to purchase any more of GW's mini range. Its upsetting because this type of move is more and more evident in today's economy, you just get so much less for your $. My household pulls in $67k before taxes... we are by no means poor.... I guess we're just not rich enough to buy 40k miniatures.
~A very sad Lion~
Its not that I disagree with the economics of it as you have put it. Its just that luxury items in today's economy are the first things that we all cut out of our budgets. Especially ones that continue to get more and more expensive. Evidently you need to be one of the following to play Warhammer : Child with wealthy parents willing to spend large amounts of money on said child's interests. Single 20-30's with either a good solid job or living or part time job living in parents basement. Or crazy old guy with too much money and too much free time.
Compare the cost of 40k luxury items to other luxury items. How much does a $2000 point army list (on average) cost ? maybe $2000 ? 5 Vanguard vets cost $45 bucks. What other luxury items can you buy for $2000.... a motorcycle... a MASSIVE LG plasma TV.... a KICK ass solid state computer with video processing insanity. Items need to be priced in some context. I recently cancelled Cable TV because the pricing for it is absurd... absurd compared to the price of internet tv services such as Netflix. Absurd compared to the fact that my montly cable bill for the triple play "deal" (phone, internet, cable tv) was costing as much as my monthly lease on a brand new Hyuandai Elantra. The cable companies have been hurting for years... the price keeps going up... they hurt more as more competative companies launch services with a modern business model. I would assume a lot of people will change games to other companies such as warmachine, or people will continue to play with what they currently own and not really make additional purchases.
If they are opening up one man shops and using those as a way to get players into the hobby--why are they adjusting their pricing based off current customers not reaching their threshold--rather than holding inflationary increases to grab new customers?
Regardless, I can't see how this is going to be sustained by GW. If you look at practically every factor that determines PED (I am not an economic major, I just took what I had to! );
Substitution available: In spades right now and every week we see another brilliant company enter the market on Dakka
Price increase v. income percentage: They are outstripping inflation and wages are stagnating vs. inflation. Which means each price increase that is over inflationary increase is felt even more as a percentage of income.
The length they keep prices high: Hasn't changed and I can't imagine they ever will
Necessity to daily living: Nope
I know my spending for GW product has decreased a great deal compared to prior years.
The weird thing about it all is that the Battalion boxes which are the Starter army for most first time buyers is going up! They should be going DOWN.
hook the guy into the hobby and then make your profit back on all the other models in the line that they will want to play with and try out etc....
I used to work at an Aquarium store many years ago, The basic Tank and pump were ALWAYS sold at cost basically... The money was made on buying fish, decoration, food, cleaning equipment etc.... Once they commit to a tank it takes a ton of money to maintain a good fish tank.
I find the reverse argument is true with videogames... Most games I buy are overhyped. I buy them for $60 and then within about 10-14 days later, I delete it from my HDD.
I could buy a couple of boxes of models for that and play with them for the rest of my life....
Im not saying that $60 for a few plastic models is a good deal, im just saying Video games are an even WORSE purchase in most cases compared to playing TT games.
Dysartes wrote:I didn't think KoW insisted that you use Mantic figures - though I'm not 100% sure on that.
Nope.
In fact, there's a thread over in the KoW forum discussing using the KoW rules with 10mm minis - something I want to try out.
Dear god, that would be awesome.
If someone made 6mm or 10mm figures and had a good ruleset with them I would be really attracted to trying out that game system. What 10mm models are they using with the KOW rules? I am not aware of much fantasy 10mm.
Dysartes wrote:I didn't think KoW insisted that you use Mantic figures - though I'm not 100% sure on that.
Nope.
In fact, there's a thread over in the KoW forum discussing using the KoW rules with 10mm minis - something I want to try out.
Dear god, that would be awesome.
If someone made 6mm or 10mm figures and had a good ruleset with them I would be really attracted to trying out that game system. What 10mm models are they using with the KOW rules? I am not aware of much fantasy 10mm.
Pendraken!
Awesome line of 10mm Fantasy. You've got Orcs, Goblins, Men, Elves, Dwarves, Undead, and a tone more.
Basing to use is Warmaster-style (so people can use their Warmaster and Warmaster Ancients for KoW and KoW Historical), so 40mm x 20mm basing, 5 infantry to a base. Then change all measurements from inches to centimeters.
Thanks for the economics refresher Ozymandias. It's been a long time since the one college econ class I took but your explanation puts things in a better perspective. I am very brand loyal to GW but I just can't shell out the bucks now that I am a married man that doesn't have tons of disposable income. As of now I only buy 1-3 GW products a year (not counting White Dwarf). If the prices were lower I would certainly end up spending more per year since the price per unit would be less daunting per trip to the cash register.
Surtur wrote: It is simplest to think of it in competition with every other wargame, in which case there are tons of alternatives and substitutes
It might be simplest but I don't think it paints the full picture. Most people that get out of GW aren't going to replace it with a competitors wargame. I know my friends and I play multiple systems from multiple manufacturers but I also know we are in the minority in the local gaming scene. Most people don't even collect multiple forces for a single system, let alone multiple systems. The real competition for GWs market is just life. Their customers grow up, and stop wanting to play with toy soldiers. Second is other hobbies and interests like camping, paintball, motorbikes, video games, and so on.
Griever wrote: Not to mention, I can buy just diablo 3 and enjoy it.
Don't even get me started. If I buy Diablo 3 I then have to buy a whole new PC.
Milisim wrote:I find the reverse argument is true with videogames... Most games I buy are overhyped. I buy them for $60 and then within about 10-14 days later, I delete it from my HDD.
I could buy a couple of boxes of models for that and play with them for the rest of my life....
Im not saying that $60 for a few plastic models is a good deal, im just saying Video games are an even WORSE purchase in most cases compared to playing TT games.
However, video games go down in price fairly quickly over time.
Kaldor wrote:
It might be simplest but I don't think it paints the full picture. Most people that get out of GW aren't going to replace it with a competitors wargame. I know my friends and I play multiple systems from multiple manufacturers but I also know we are in the minority in the local gaming scene. Most people don't even collect multiple forces for a single system, let alone multiple systems. The real competition for GWs market is just life. Their customers grow up, and stop wanting to play with toy soldiers. Second is other hobbies and interests like camping, paintball, motorbikes, video games, and so on.
Although it is also just local experience, I have the complete opposite picture. When we started with Warmachine/Hordes here locally, we drew in a lot of people that had quit GW either recently or a few years ago - our initial original playerbase was late 20-somethings and 30-somethings (many with families and children) that had stopped playing GW games but due to the local GW-exclusive gaming scene had nowwhere to go until we showed up. The same thing is happening now with Infinity - old 40k players are showing up realizing that there is an alternative to 40k. Several of them continue playing 40k. Many of these people also start multiple systems. The only ones that tend to stay entirely exclusive are the tournament-invested players and the background-obsessives.
For what many people think is GW's real market - the 10-15 year olds they use the churn'n'burn strategy on - you are undoubtedly right, though.
Ozymandias wrote:Well the strength of Australia's dollar is a relatively new phenomenon. And the average income of an Australian is higher than the average income of a US citizen, so I don't think your prices are going down anytime soon.
And don't they pay more for everything down under? Like isn't a video game $60US but $100Aus?
It has less to do with income and more to do with when prices were set vs the exchange rate at the time. AUD$100 games made sense when your pre-current gen games were US$50 and your dollar was worth twice ours. Ditto GW prices as they were set when the £ was worth three times the Aussie dollar. They've never been redone. Of course, there's currently an open submission government look into these high prices and how they can be changed.
But even if you accept the idea that it's down to average household wage, it doesn't explain why the prices in Japan/Brazil/NZ/South Africa are all so much higher than the UK/US. I can't imagine all these countries are making money hand over fist in comparison to the UK/US.
Lanrak wrote:I was responding to the impression the previous poster had about Mantic wanting you to use only thier miantures.(I could have totaly misunderstood!)
I am sure they would prefer you to use some of thier minature and hobby product range.
BUT getting the games played by gamers and generating positive word of mouth appears to be far more important to Ronnie.
And I think he is right!
That was the same post I was responding to, too.
Possibly misunderstood what I was trying to say as I did kinda fluff it up. Pretty much mantic range is ugly to me, but they will obviously, for their own game have units which they make the models for like for example dragon cavalry I think the elves have. Simple economics make a game, why not make the models too and cash in . They should however push their range for the game, which they do.
infinite_array wrote:
nkelsch wrote:
infinite_array wrote:
Dysartes wrote:I didn't think KoW insisted that you use Mantic figures - though I'm not 100% sure on that.
Nope.
In fact, there's a thread over in the KoW forum discussing using the KoW rules with 10mm minis - something I want to try out.
Dear god, that would be awesome.
If someone made 6mm or 10mm figures and had a good ruleset with them I would be really attracted to trying out that game system. What 10mm models are they using with the KOW rules? I am not aware of much fantasy 10mm.
Pendraken!
Awesome line of 10mm Fantasy. You've got Orcs, Goblins, Men, Elves, Dwarves, Undead, and a tone more.
Basing to use is Warmaster-style (so people can use their Warmaster and Warmaster Ancients for KoW and KoW Historical), so 40mm x 20mm basing, 5 infantry to a base. Then change all measurements from inches to centimeters.
That does indeed open up an very, very interesting possibility, I just still have trouble getting past that interview with Alessio being a hardcore "YOU VILL PLAY AZ I HAV COMMANDED OR ZE LABOUR CAMP VILL BE ZE NEXT STOP!!" type.
Still I'm hoping AoW can also bring some competition to the market of fantasy wargames. But with how much the AOW heroes costare they really that different to GW's pricing in the rest of the world? Here in the UK they are roughly the same, albeit some very nice sculpts.
And will they go down the pitfall of GW type pricing for upcoming regiments? eg: This unit is an elite unit, we shall charge more, as that knid of pricing risks another lot of forums with the same threads but with GW replaced with AoW.
End of the day if those divendends payed out were "truely spare money" then the company is A: still making a lot of profit, its good for a while yet unless everyone realises they have played for mugs since the mid 90's and B: Gouging us for the short term, after all, inventors now don't care about the long term returns, with the money they made to have it "truely spare" the company is doing well and doesn't need another hike in the products prices, unless it is to start to cover the rising overheads from shop floor space, to R&D.
With all the kickstarters happening of late, what if GW turned around and lowered prices but we had to help them fund future projects I wonder...
GW acts like they are the only miniature war-gaming company on earth, and that's why they treat their products as if they were inelastic. From their perspective they are bread, milk and petrol, not high-end chocolate and gourmet potato chips.
Just Dave wrote:However, video games go down in price fairly quickly over time.
That's an interesting point. Over time games go down. Over time, 10 Cadians cost more than 20 Cadians used to cost. That's... significant, I think.
I just bought Kingdoms Of Amalur. I ordered it from a place in the UK called "Ozgamers", as it's a site set up specifically to sell games and other related items to Australians. Shipping is free, and prices are greatly reduced compared to on-shore retailers. They're the Maelstrom of 360/PS3/PC games. Now this game, Kingdoms Of Amalur, cost me AUD$30. This was after a AUD$20 price drop it had the other day. I look at EB Games in OZ and JB Hi-Fi and it's AUD$108 from EB and AUD89 from JB. I got it for AUD$30.
Hi Vermillion.
I think Alessio was trying to say ' Kings of War can support competative play IF you want to play it that way.'
But his enthusiasm/passion for his own game, may have given the wrong impression to more casual gamers.
KoW is a clean elegant system that it SO easy to add narrative too if you want to.OR play competative games with chess clocks if you want to.Or find a middle ground you are happy with.
I see the Kings of War rules as a solid foundation to allow gamers to play the games they want to.
Which is the antithisis of GW plc core games.Where they TELL you how they want you to play and with what models .(EG play the same way they do, or the game falls apart!)
From my experiance its far easier to add narrative and make up your own senarios for a well defined internaly consistant rule set.
Than it is to find a way to make a poorly defined inconsistant rule set work for competative play.
You can still down load free rules and army lists from Mantic.So to try out KoW is very cheap.
If you dont like it you have wasted about 20 sheets of printer paper MAX!
Compared £70 for WHFB rule book and army book?
FACT GW plc has a gross margin of 76%.
Thats 76% profit BEFORE logistics and retail costs are accounted for.
And only 13% profit after the cost of logistics and retail are taken out.
(Spending about £70m on B&M stores, when you only make £16M profit is ridiculous!IMO.)
So if GW plc adjusted its buisness model to suit todays market.They could HALVE retail prices and make MORE profit!
Hyd wrote:Pretty much what I wanted to answer after reading the OP. I raised an eyebrow when Ozymandias mentioned luxury products as an example of inelastic goods, as they usually have a high number of substitutes available ; essential goods, on the other hand, are unanimously considered inelastic (you can only curb your consumption of gasoline or water so much, thus you'll have to accept price changes on those).
The rationale about relative inelasticity being the reason for repeated price hikes still stands. Indeed, the way you could say GW products are inelastic is if we assume its customers are extremely loyal and therefore do not consider other options as satisfying substitutes. It's already been mentioned what can make this true : great intellectual property, an established presence and worldwide community, relative quality of models.
However, they might be running into problems if we consider customer loyalty to be their best asset. It's no secret here that they are getting on the nerves of their "core" fanbase with an apparently increasing disregard, and some are quitting as a result. If we assume their main target is teenagers, they have quite a challenge on their hands if they want to retain their loyalty.
So unless they somehow "recruit" more mature customers than they lose, or unless they do manage to shape youngsters into long-term loyal clients, that key asset of theirs might be unravelling. Which means they're overestimating the inelasticity of their products.
Pure conjecture on my part, but their lingering first-mover advantage in the world of non-historical wargames (you could say they are to fantasy miniatures what Apple is to tablets) might be all that keeps them afloat today. I can't see them gaining ground at present, and the numbers seem to indicate they're losing some. As Surtur pointed out (thanks by the way, your post was not lost on me at least !), they're running out of easy solutions.
I agree with this. One of GW's strongest asset is its customer loyalty, which is largely driven by GW's fictional universes. Thus, GW views its IP as an incredibly important asset. However, GW has not been husbanding customer loyalty very well over the past few years. I think there are folks at GW, such as Mr. Wells, that have a mind to change this state of affairs, but I think it is one of the most significant reasonas why GW seems to be declining. GW takes its customers for granted, due to a long period of market dominance.
I plan now just ot buy stuff of 3rd parties, I still ant stuff nos but these prices are killing me so now I order from places like the war store and companies that use ebay. I recently bought 30 blood letters from a company nos for $60 USD inlcuding shipping. GW will charge me over $90 USD iclding shipping. It just doesn't make economic sense for me to buy from GW. My local GW is consantly trying to convince us that we need to support them, and my response it always, "when your coperate supports us, the gamers I'll support you".
It's a tiny plastic truck, selling for £40+.
I'm all for economic demand, but if they have to charge that much to fill a mould with the cheapest toy resource on the market, then the company must be making sickeningly bad financial decisions.
Milisim wrote:I find the reverse argument is true with videogames... Most games I buy are overhyped. I buy them for $60 and then within about 10-14 days later, I delete it from my HDD.
I could buy a couple of boxes of models for that and play with them for the rest of my life....
Im not saying that $60 for a few plastic models is a good deal, im just saying Video games are an even WORSE purchase in most cases compared to playing TT games.
This is nonsense.
I bought this game in 2003. I'm still playing it to this day.
If you are wise, and purchase the right product, on the right platform, it can serve as the bases for modding and player generated content, in which case a $20 or $30 purchase can be extended to a lifespan of 4 or 5 years, easily. Community building, networking, competitive play, or as a creative outlet. I was pretty astonished by the modeling in Firestorm over Kronus, for instance - I should have expected that from 40k fans, but quite literally the modder's texturework surpasses the developer's, and there are something like 10 times as many color schemes per army. Keep in mind, all of that content is free, it has to be free by law, but it inevitably extends the lifespan of the product and the enjoyment I get out of it quite a bit.
I'm sorry, somewhat off-topic, but a pet peeve of mine, and to the point - it's all about wisdom and how you spend your money. Some guys are augmenting their tabletop gaming with Privateer Press, the secondhand market, or some other form of modeling while this all blows over and the price hits the ceiling from market pressure and rebounds into something of a more sensible range.
I don't buy games when they're $60, and a lot of people that have been playing videogames for many years will tell you that's stupid, and that you only do it in cases of big mega blockbuster releases, typically with games like Halo or Gears of War that hold their value over the years on the resale and primary market and also happen to have an unusual amount of content and specially high production values, e.g. stuff that actually make it worth the $60 cost of entry.
With the past few years being so hard across the world economically I have felt the pinch. That said the past decade if I have bought a computer game it has HAD to last (crazy assed ex's and all that) so I've been following the above advice for games already .
Second hand games being a bargain though seems to be becoming rarer. Prices for them are slowly creeping closer and closer to the price of the new counterparts, and with the talk of one use DLC codes becoming more popular it shows that game makers want games to become something that is paid for over and over.
The economics behind it is fair IMO (the makers getting a small amount each sale to unlock x, y or z, or DLC) but with digital downloads becoming more the norm I am feeling sadder and sadder about the future of second hand books, games and so on.
Miniatures however being sold second hand seem to vary between retaining value, increasing and decreasing depending on demand. Obviously limited editions will rise in value so long as there are collectors, but with the prices of new rising, how long until even second hand the demand for them starts pricing people out the market?
Let us hope more companies look at GW, see the numbers behind the figures and realise that toys are for all
Ozymandias wrote:Well the strength of Australia's dollar is a relatively new phenomenon. And the average income of an Australian is higher than the average income of a US citizen, so I don't think your prices are going down anytime soon.
And don't they pay more for everything down under? Like isn't a video game $60US but $100Aus?
Max Payne 3 cost me 89.
Tactical marines cost me 62.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm a fairly big gamer, and I'm seeing a slightly different argument coming out of the side here
When I play games or buy things, I use a time-for-money system, except on things where the usage is necessary (phone, PC.)
Good time for money is usually 1$/hr.
bad time for money is usually 1$/6minutes (10$/hr)
Video games vary a lot for me, I get a lot out of some (mount and blade costing me $50 all up, but I have 300 hours clocked on it - $1 for six hours of gameplay.) and others I get very little out of (Space marine, I paid $100 but only played for 15 hours, $6.xx an hour.)
But of course, this doesn't take into account enjoyability:
Shogun 2: TW I got a $1 ratio for, but in the end that linked to me simply wanting to finish the game and by the end of it I no longer enjoyed it.
Bastion got me a $2 for every hour but I loved every second of it.
Warhammer... warhammer can work the same way.
Think about this:
I have a unit of tactical marines that I use in every game. I've had them for 2 and a half years. I payed $50 for them and I've used them in (by my approximation) 2 games a month for those two years, each lasting say, two hours. that's 260 games and 520 hours of game time - more than I got out of Mount and blade! yet I paid the same.
This whole argument says that GW prices are reasonable. They aren't. They are only as reasonable as the value YOU get out of the marines.
Me, being a person who makes a point of playing a game or two every month at the least, gets a lot out of my models. But Jim Crow, the bloke who plays salamanders but doesn't play more than four times a year, gets far less out of his unit of tactical marines than me - even if he has had them the whole time.
So, I'm saying you get what you put in. The price is too high, but I will pay it because of what I get out of my $62.
I started to play 40k in the early 90's and slowly saw their increase in price and their decrease in figures per blister(/box)
every price increase came with some reason what was often BSIMHO, (metal prices bla, bla).
When i lived in Europe there were a lot of makers of miniatures in Germany and England who didn't feel the need to increase their prices.
I was an avid collector of space marine stuff and even that i have a good paying job, i always had a "mental" limit about what i would spend per month on GW stuff.
So paying 35$ for one figure in resin (which IMO is for showcase models not table top figures) is jus ludicrous.
If they don't change their course then in a few years they will be a footnote in history.
This article from January says all is well, they're obviously neutral, I doubt GW effed it all up too much in 4 and a bit months.
A company being in profit is healthy if they can sustain it. If they can't sustain it though the company is in serious trouble.
GW's revenues have been fairly static since the LoTR bubble burst yet in that time they have had an annual above inflation price rise (I think it averages out to about 7%). If all was well in GW towers then their revenues would be increasing by the same margin, they haven't.
The most logical explanation for this is that their sales are falling at about the same rate as their price increases and have been for years. They are in profit as they have low overheads (aside from their hugely expensive shops) and have aggresviely cut costs but there isn't much more than they can do now short of moving their manufacturing to the far east or closing all their shops.
The annual price increase is simple idiocy and I think the culture at GW is to blame; they clearly see themselves as distinct from their competitors, that they are intrinsicly superior and that their customers will blindly follow them. I don't think that GW will ultimately go under, they aren't in immediate danger and they have time to set their house in order, but they really need a good sharp shock. I think the wargaming landscape will look quite a lot different in 10 years time.
On a personal level I haven't bought anything from GW retail in about 4 years now and what little GW stuff I buy collect comes from Ebay.
I was an avid collector of space marine stuff and even that i have a good paying job, i always had a "mental" limit about what i would spend per month on GW stuff.
So paying 35$ for one figure in resin (which IMO is for showcase models not table top figures) is jus ludicrous.
It's insane, GW takes it's customers for granted and that's the problem. In America at my local GW there are alot of kids who have big budgets because of their parents, that is one of the problems the peopel who will drop 1,000's of dollars a year. They are what inmho are the main cause of this, people who will follow GW blindly. They are what keeps the company afloat. Without people like them they would be seriously suffering.
IMO the price increases will mean that increasingly people will buy to a list rather than trying out different unit types. Less and less will buy directly from GW [why would you?] and will instead buy from discount webistes [ok GW still get their cut ] and from Ebay. Also fewer will start new armies.
This has been the impact on me. I bought 1500 points of CSM from Gifts for Geeks 4 years ago and have only bought from ebay since then. I've managed to get 1000 points of Lizardmen together without GW getting a penny of my money. The Night Lords army I've wanted to collect for years will probably never happen. And the only money GW get from me is £4.50 a month for White Dwarf, and they probably won't get that anymore because the last few issues have been shocking. Ok I'm only one person but I don't think I'm in a minority. Surely these price increases aren't sustainable?
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that people less often attack Privateer Press's pricing when they are are on par with, or sometimes more than GW products, and I think it's a fair point to bring up. Why does PP garner so much positive attention from gamers, who while unhappy paying $82.50 for a Stormraven, won't think twice about shelling out $84.99 for a Battle Engine? Is it because we know once Privateer has announced a price for something it doesn't suddenly jump up 20% the next year? Is it because with PP they're constantly engaging their customer base on both their official forums, and at conventions and events that aren't just their own money grab? Perception means a lot. Privateer Press works hard to EARN my hobby dollars. They don't take for granted that I'll keep buying their product regardless of what they say or do, and that makes all the difference to me. Add onto that that aside from their occasional sale they aren't competing against independent retailers, and they don't tell me what retailers I have to purchase from, it makes me a happy customer that keeps returning to their game when I get bored.
derek wrote:Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that people less often attack Privateer Press's pricing when they are are on par with, or sometimes more than GW products, and I think it's a fair point to bring up. Why does PP garner so much positive attention from gamers, who while unhappy paying $82.50 for a Stormraven, won't think twice about shelling out $84.99 for a Battle Engine? Is it because we know once Privateer has announced a price for something it doesn't suddenly jump up 20% the next year? Is it because with PP they're constantly engaging their customer base on both their official forums, and at conventions and events that aren't just their own money grab? Perception means a lot. Privateer Press works hard to EARN my hobby dollars. They don't take for granted that I'll keep buying their product regardless of what they say or do, and that makes all the difference to me. Add onto that that aside from their occasional sale they aren't competing against independent retailers, and they don't tell me what retailers I have to purchase from, it makes me a happy customer that keeps returning to their game when I get bored.
That and their products are the same price here in Australia as they are overseas.
Also I am free to buy from discount web retailers, however at the moment I am choosing to buy local from the Combat Company cause they do a good job and ship free and fast.
Its a very good point you raise above. I don't think I have seen one negative topic started on PP business practices.
Some of the models may be priced the same but I need a lot less of them to play. They are clearly making a lot of right moves IMHO.
The other important factor about PP is that you only require a handful of models. Certainly they are expensive individually but a 50 point PP army is significantly cheaper than a 1750 point GW army.
Palindrome wrote:The other important factor about PP is that you only require a handful of models. Certainly they are expensive individually but a 50 point PP army is significantly cheaper than a 1750 point GW army.
Sure but then you play a smaller game without so many models. Some people like the bigger games.
You can always just use less GW models and have smaller games. You could even play kill team battle missions which only requires a 200pt force or something and each model acts by itself. You could even twist the rules for your own benefit so you don't need to stick to the FOC or even to the minimum requirement of models per unit. If the codex gives a pointage for 5 models in the squad you can always work out what one would cost instead and do it that way.
I know that some people have legitimate gripes about GW but I never understood the "You don't need as much" argument. Some people might not need as much food as I do but it doesn't stop me from stuffing my face unneccesarily and it doesn't stop anybody else from buying less than me to eat.
Problem is that it is already ingrained in the miniature wargaming culture that 1500-2000 is the "normal" point game. It's hard to find a game to play with a 500-point army when everyone brought a 1500-2000 and they would feel like it would be a waste to bring all those minis and only play with a handful of them.
It's also widely believed that the game is more imbalanced (not saying that 40k is balanced... ever) in smaller point games,so there's also a stigma for that.
Palindrome wrote:The other important factor about PP is that you only require a handful of models. Certainly they are expensive individually but a 50 point PP army is significantly cheaper than a 1750 point GW army.
Sure but then you play a smaller game without so many models. Some people like the bigger games.
You can always just use less GW models and have smaller games. You could even play kill team battle missions which only requires a 200pt force or something and each model acts by itself. You could even twist the rules for your own benefit so you don't need to stick to the FOC or even to the minimum requirement of models per unit. If the codex gives a pointage for 5 models in the squad you can always work out what one would cost instead and do it that way.
I know that some people have legitimate gripes about GW but I never understood the "You don't need as much" argument. Some people might not need as much food as I do but it doesn't stop me from stuffing my face unneccesarily and it doesn't stop anybody else from buying less than me to eat.
Eh, had a longer post, but I'll sum it up this way:
If you just wanna have loads and loads of models, then GW is a better deal. But if you want to play games, PP is a better deal, unless for some reason you simply can't bring yourself to play skirmish scale games. And even then, if you want loads and loads of models, there are still manufacturers who sell 'em for less than GW does.
Also, I personally tend to find smaller games of 40K or Fantasy to be far less engaging than larger games. Generally to get the best bang for your buck you're playing 1500-2000 point games anyway.
Hell, if playing with boatloads of models is what makes the game for you, then play 10mm or 6mm Historicals. You can have thousands of models!
heartserenade wrote:Problem is that it is already ingrained in the miniature wargaming culture that 1500-2000 is the "normal" point game. It's hard to find a game to play with a 500-point army when everyone brought a 1500-2000 and they would feel like it would be a waste to bring all those minis and only play with a handful of them.
It's also widely believed that the game is more imbalanced (not saying that 40k is balanced... ever) in smaller point games,so there's also a stigma for that.
Absoloutely true, but it goes to show that people are still shelling out money for armies at the 1500 - 2000pt range. I was merely making an observation for those who didn't want to shell out that much.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RatBot wrote:Eh, had a longer post, but I'll sum it up this way:
If you just wanna have loads and loads of models, then GW is a better deal. But if you want to play games, PP is a better deal, unless for some reason you simply can't bring yourself to play skirmish scale games. And even then, if you want loads and loads of models, there are still manufacturers who sell 'em for less than GW does.
I was only commenting on the part where PP was better than GW because even though they are the same cost model to model you don't need as much to play. It is perfectly acceptable to play 200pt kill team games instead or slightly twist the rules accordingly to accomodate smaller games. I understand that some people may prefer PP or even do buisness with them because they don't like GW for whatever reason but I was only addressing that point.
Also, I personally tend to find smaller games of 40K or Fantasy to be far less engaging than larger games. Generally to get the best bang for your buck you're playing 1500-2000 point games anyway.
Absolutely, I love the larger games. It's more representative of an actual battle if you know what I mean. I've got nothing against skirmish games, I used to play one called Chainmail when it was about. Not anymore now though since WotC stopped making the models and the game.
Hell, if playing with boatloads of models is what makes the game for you, then play 10mm or 6mm Historicals. You can have thousands of models!
Sorry historicals aren't my thing really. I like the whole idea of futristic gentically modified humans rather than Napleon at the Battle of Waterloo scene. I find it a lot more exciting and interesting. lthough I understand if others do like those kind of games. Funny thing is usually I find history to be an interesting subject, I just don't like playing games on it. I think I've been brainwashed by the computer game industry to think that games should all be about lazer guns and space ships.
As for other games like Mantic, well I don't know anyone who plays. Heck I only know one person who plays Warmachine, my friend who got me into Chainmail and 40k to begin with. However I live in a different location now and I only get a game with him once a month or 2 months when I go home for holidays and despite it being a popular game down at the FLGS in the city near where I live, I'm not really sold on the game. My friend did give me a run down on it and I watched a couple of battle reports to see what it's like but as others have stated "Its just not the same". I liked the look of some of the Infinity models, although a few of them looked horrible to me but when I enquired about it down at the FLGS they only had a few core loyal players who play the game. So it's not the kind of game I can just pop down and get a match.
Gaming wise I go down to GW in the city and I pretty much enjoy it. The people down there are pretty good so I've gotten to know some of them pretty well. Also on tevery second Sunday I go to a gaming club where they play 40k/Fantasy. I also have a friend here at work who plays and he also comes down to the gaming club for a game when he isn't working. We've also arranged to go to Warhammer World next week for a day and booked a table.
The PP prices vs GW prices is something I keep seeing, but no one compares the cost of the AoW character models to GW character model pricing often. OK again AoW are starting up, engaging the fan base and so on, but the prices are on par with GW's AFTER GW raised the prices this time round for finecast/metal.
Attempting to be devils advocate here, is it just the "let's bang on about GW" bandwagon effect?
My personal answer is no, simply because the price rises were not justified in my eyes, and believe that more people should shrug and let it go, use ebay or what they have already and see if lack of sales starts leading to lower pricing. AoW have the excuse of being more expensive in the UK because of importing from Spain.
PP, AoW, and 3rd party bitz companies all cost exactly the same as GW. Which is why I have no issues. Only mantic is less and they have ugly cheap-looking models when it comes to greenskins which I collect.
And every time someone says PP is cheaper due to needing less models... Who said you can't play 1000pt warhammer game? Comparing prices on anything but a model to model standard is disingenuous as a majority of people who buy these models never play the games associated with the games so it is a 'per model' cost.
Well, the only store here is GW price + %14 shipping + 7% tax. For example a Land Raider costs $74.25 in GW + %14 + 7% = $90.57 thats the price a battleforce use to cost. Well, the economics of GW is affecting my country a lot since they have to buy stuff directly from GW in the UK and the cost of shipping is higher, and they add that cost to the customer.
nkelsch wrote:
And every time someone says PP is cheaper due to needing less models... Who said you can't play 1000pt warhammer game? Comparing prices on anything but a model to model standard is disingenuous as a majority of people who buy these models never play the games associated with the games so it is a 'per model' cost.
Yeah... No, you're wrong.
You can even play 10pts of 40K if you like, but if the normal tournament points are 1500+, if the points advocated in the rulebook as "normal" are in the 1000-2000 pts range, then that is what the majority of games played by the majority of people will be like.
Saying that you can't compare the normal army cost because you can play the game with a single miniature is misleading (and just a "marketing" ploy to try and make GW appear more favourable cost wise)...
True, that arguement also ignores that GW operate worldwide through their overseas HQs and retail arms. They incur costs at the local rate therefore are inclined to track prices against local salaries.
PP et al only operate in their own territories therefore have costs based upon that area. Whether they supply across the US, Europe or Australasia they can set one rate as it all comes from one place.
GW have manufacturing costs of 27% before retail costs are taken, reducing their margin to 10-12% iirc. Assuming PP can produce at the same cost what are their owners spending the remainder on?
:facetiousness:
Re the game size and model arguement you can play GW games for £30-40 if you choose (necro/mordhiem) so they must be cheaper than PP. Alternatively aren't PP releasing rules for larger games, so they must be more expensive than GW. :facetiousness:
In reality GW are expensive as are PP et al. The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious since you dont need models. People want what they want, I don't see how GW or anyone else dictates what you should be doing with your toys.
notprop wrote:True, that arguement also ignores that GW operate worldwide through their overseas HQs and retail arms. They incur costs at the local rate therefore are inclined to track prices against local salaries.
PP et al only operate in their own territories therefore have costs based upon that area. Whether they supply across the US, Europe or Australasia they can set one rate as it all comes from one place.
GW have manufacturing costs of 27% before retail costs are taken, reducing their margin to 10-12% iirc. Assuming PP can produce at the same cost what are their owners spending the remainder on?
Why are you assuming that PP can produce at the same cost as GW? Have you ever heard of economy of scale? The more units you produce, the lower your cost per unit should be. If they aren't, then you are doing something wrong.
Also as a customer, I couldn't care less about GW's retail costs. If your retail arm is costing you money instead of giving profit, then cut it.
notprop wrote:
:facetiousness:
Re the game size and model arguement you can play GW games for £30-40 if you choose (necro/mordhiem) so they must be cheaper than PP. Alternatively aren't PP releasing rules for larger games, so they must be more expensive than GW. :facetiousness:
Stop trying to mislead people, please...
Necromunda and Mordheim haven't been supported by GW for what, at least 5 years? If they were I could given you that point, but GW themselves have determined that smaller (and therefore, cheaper) games, aren't what they wan't to do, so have fun buying that 2000 pts SM army for 6th edition 40K.
notprop wrote:
In reality GW are expensive as are PP et al. The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious since you dont need models. People want what they want, I don't see how GW or anyone else dictates what you should be doing with your toys.
In reality, they are not as expensive as GW. And you don't need models? If the entire Hhhhhobby is to prepare and paint models so that you can play with said models and now your argument is that you don't need them?
The fact is that GW says that a normal game of 40k is to be played between armies of 1000 - 2000 pts.
Most people that play 40k, play it with armies between 1000 - 2000 pts.
Most 40k tournaments are made using armies between 1000 - 2000 pts.
Saying that you can change the rules of the game to use less points doesn't serve any purpose other than to try and mislead people.
You can even play 10pts of 40K if you like, but if the normal tournament points are 1500+, if the points advocated in the rulebook as "normal" are in the 1000-2000 pts range, then that is what the majority of games played by the majority of people will be like.
Saying that you can't compare the normal army cost because you can play the game with a single miniature is misleading (and just a "marketing" ploy to try and make GW appear more favourable cost wise)...
A nice night in with a drink will cost me the price of one beer. A night on the lash will cost me several beers. Do I moan and complain because on a night out I have to spend more? No I don't, because I'm buying more beers for my money.
Yes, you need to pay more to typically play 40k, but as stated on a model basis you pay the same, so yes you spend more but you are getting MORE MODELS. That is more models to play with, more models to paint, more models to configure, etc,etc. So guess what? You get a lot more enjoyment time from them on that basis.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
notprop wrote:
:facetiousness:
Re the game size and model arguement you can play GW games for £30-40 if you choose (necro/mordhiem) so they must be cheaper than PP. Alternatively aren't PP releasing rules for larger games, so they must be more expensive than GW. :facetiousness:
In reality GW are expensive as are PP et al. The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious since you dont need models. People want what they want, I don't see how GW or anyone else dictates what you should be doing with your toys.
Re assumptions, PP and most other games companies costs are private we can only really extrapolate from the only public set of accounts we have - GWs. But by all means sling mud if you have nothing constructive to add.
You also need to look up the word facetious. This is supposed to be an economic discussion not a emotive one.
DarthOvious wrote:
Yes, you need to pay more to typically play 40k, but as stated on a model basis you pay the same, so yes you spend more but you are getting MORE MODELS. That is more models to play with, more models to paint, more models to configure, etc,etc. So guess what? You get a lot more enjoyment time from them on that basis.
No, you are wrong, again...
For the same cost that I HAVE to pay to have ONE normal functional army of 40K, I can have 2+ armies of WMH from different factions even, if I choose, I'm not forced to spend that extra cash if my sole purpose is to have a normal game.
So you wan't to compare that in terms of "enjoyment time"?
Stop trying to manipulate facts to make GW look better... it only makes you guys come across as desperate (or as GW employees)...
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notprop wrote:The size of a game isn't a rule but a preference.
Re assumptions, PP and most other games companies costs are private we can only really extrapolate from the only public set of accounts we have - GWs. But by all means sling mud if you have nothing constructive to add.
You also need to look up the word facetious. This is supposed to be an economic discussion not a emotive one.
And here come the personal attacks when everything else fails...
Only someone who has never worked or even hasn't had any contact with any type of mass production, will be unaware that cost per unit goes down in an almost direct proportion to the number of units produced. It is public knowledge that GW produces allot more units than PP, therefore we can safely assume that GW costs per unit produced will be inferior to PP's or any other miniature maker in the market. Saying so isn't "slinging mud".
Saying that most 40k games are played in the 1000 - 2000 pts range isn't "slinging mud", its stating a fact and a direct quote from the 40k rulebook to booth , saying that Mordheim and Necromunda aren't supported by GW anymore isn't "slinging mud", its stating a fact.
Saying that you need more money (TWICE as much at the very least), to play a normal game of 40K compared to WMH, or Infinity or Malifaux, isn't "slinging mud", its stating a fact.
Do you mean the aesthetic of the sculpts or the quality of materials/casts used?
If the former, imho you're talking gak.
I wouldn't say it is complete gak so much as off target. It isn't that GW has declined in quality miniatures it is really that so many other companies now produce miniatures of either the same quality or close to it. This just happens to coincide with yearly price rises that now see a land raider at $75. When you look at other companies such as:
Reaper
Privateer Press
Mongoose Publishing
Perry Brothers
Victrix
Black Scorpion
Artizan
Copplestone Castings
Warlord Games
Khurasan
you see why people are starting to see why people are starting to see GW as lacking in value for your dollar. And that isn't even counting up and coming companies like the guys who are doing Blackwater Gulch with what looks like some really good quality sculpts at a fraction of the price.
When I see 3 horseymen from PP cost 55ish dollars, and 3 Horseymen from GW cost 55$ and a horseyman from AoR costs about 30$, they all cost the same to me when it boils out. So I buy what loosk best and what I want to paint.
The games mean nothing to a large portion of the consumer base. Thousands of customers never play the game and the perceived 'value' of the game and quantity of models is lost on them.
When you boil it down, everyone else's prices are pretty much close to GW's many more, many less. Those which are substantial cheaper often are inferior or ugly. When I see impressive cheap models, my experience has been there are fulfillment problems or after a year or two of cheap prices they raise prices as they didn't realize how much it actually costs to produce models when they move from 'garage kits' to 'full-blown mini producer'
None of it bothers me and I don't see a problem with any of the prices. If I like the model, I buy it. If I don't like it, I don't.
If you treat models as little more than forced tokens to a gamepiece and you care nothing for models, then yes, they may be expensive, but that is not the companies fault you are more interested in a game than the models.
3rd party small-run resins are also super expensive, I still buy them. Kromlech, maxmini and Puppetwars all make great models which are expensive... that is how it is.
Ozymandias wrote:I’ll start with the disclaimer. I do have a degree in Economics, but it’s been years since I graduated and I don’t really use it in my day to day job. So I’m sure some of you will pipe up with how I got some specific or another wrong, but it’s been awhile so take it easy.
I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but this is probably the best post about the price increase.
*Thumbs up*
Vermillion wrote:What shocks me most is that people will be up in arms that little plastic, resin and metal toys are going up in price and they cannot get as many, yet aren't protesting in the street about the insane increases in the cost of living. Energy costs, food, rent, taxes etc. are all far more important and many have got to the point where they are going without one of these things seen as essentials to try to cover the others.
)
Unfortunately for your point I need to buy food, I need to buy gas (energy) to go to work, I need to pay rent to have a place to live, and I need to pay taxes or I go to jail. Now I have cut back on gas by not driving so much but more importantly I don't need to buy GW stuff it is a luxury item that I can chose to buy or not to buy.
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Ozymandias wrote:Certainly necessities are inelastic, however my points about substitution and brand loyalty still hold. I can find some alternatives in the form of Mantic models, but if I want a space marine and a rhino, there aren't any cheaper alternatives out there.
In the end, GW is acting like their product is inelastic, and I wanted people to better understand the concept.
You are correct that you cannot find a direct substitute but you can find a substitute for your entertainment dollars. And based off of falling sales volume this is what people are doing. The big problem with GWs strategy isn't just falling sales volume it is a loss of the player base. The loss of a player base is the most serious issue a game company can face. Now I am not saying that GW can't overcome this only that they are getting to a point that they will not be able to.
My 35 point (tournament sized) tier 4 Hordes army cost $192 retail, without factoring warstore 20+% off.
Or I could have had 15 Centigor (10% of tournament sized) for my ghorros themed Beastmen army. :(
Or 2 landraider. :(
And I didn't have to jump through any stupid hoops online to order it... Seriously, go browse the Warmachine section of thewarstore and then either GW section and tell me you don't think gw is stupid when compaired to pp. You can still do it. And get the discount. But gw has gone way out of their way to make it as hard as possible to purchase their products.
notprop wrote:The arguement that you need more models for GW is felatious...
Are you saying it sucks?
Fallacious. Felatious presumably means having the qualities of fellatio.
I prefer the latter explanation
In terms of the games (rather than just buying the odd model or so to paint), of course the games are designed to work at a certain level of points. For 40k, this is in the 1500pt-2000pt bracket (Apocalypse excluded), and generally regarded as being 2000+ for WFB. I think really that's the only fair assumption to make regarding price to play a game. Of course kids can play 40k with a tac squad and a rhino, but I'm guessing they would get bored pretty quickly and would be forever looking jealously at the battle reports in the pages of WD.
GW has undergone scale creep. The new version of Fantasy requires more figures than the previous one. Given that I need to have lots of figures, I am not as concerned with the details on the models as much as I would be if I were playing with fewer miniatures. It does not matter to me if I can see the detail on trooper number 37's teeth, as I may not even have time to paint them. The lack of necessity of detail for large scale games has led them to be played with small scale figures, which are less expensive and easier to lug around. GW has simply tried to buck the trend.
Many of us grew up with plastic green army men. They are not that detailed, but they are really cheap (500 for 30 bucks), and do not require assembly. For the purposes of playing 40k they are a much better value than GWs models. I think that the trade off of price more than makes up for the loss of detail. This being said when playing a small scale game, GW miniatures would be far superior.
It is simply crazy to pay GW prices for a large scale game. It is even worse when you buy multiple armies, as many of us have been know to do.
Thus, although some other companies may not charge much less than GW for a miniature, you don't need nearly as many to play their games.
For the same cost that I HAVE to pay to have ONE normal functional army of 40K,
First mistake right here. Modelling and painting are part of the hobby. You can't just discard them at your whim because you say so.
I can have 2+ armies of WMH from different factions even, if I choose,
And if I stay in the house then I can also just drink cheaper beer instead of actually going out to a club to pay more expensive prices just so I can actually hang out with my friends and have a good time.
I'm not forced to spend that extra cash if my sole purpose is to have a normal game.
Nobody holds a gun to your head. You don't need to spend more cash, just play games at lesser points. Heck, I even played at a doubles tournie that was 500pts each a month back and it was lots of fun and my list consisted of Mephiston and ten assault marines. Not really a big cost there really.
So you wan't to compare that in terms of "enjoyment time"?
Beleive it or not, some people actually enjoy painting and modelling. You're complaining because you need to pay more money to buy MORE THINGS and that is pretty unreasonable if you ask me. It's like complaining because you have to pay more for a PC just to get the better video card with all the options. Next it will be "WAH the new Xbox costs more than the old one, I'm going to go and have a hissy fit because the newer and better Xbox costs more money WAH". Just stop whinging.
Stop trying to manipulate facts to make GW look better... it only makes you guys come across as desperate (or as GW employees)...
I am no GW defender. I do disagree with some of their decisions. However you majorly come across as someone who can only have a negative view of GW. So I can only quote your own words back at you.
Stop trying to manipulate facts to make GW look bad... it only makes you guys come across as desperate (or as bitter)...
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brettz123 wrote:
Ratius wrote:^^ not sure if serious?
Do you mean the aesthetic of the sculpts or the quality of materials/casts used?
If the former, imho you're talking gak.
I wouldn't say it is complete gak so much as off target. It isn't that GW has declined in quality miniatures it is really that so many other companies now produce miniatures of either the same quality or close to it. This just happens to coincide with yearly price rises that now see a land raider at $75. When you look at other companies such as:
Reaper
Privateer Press
Mongoose Publishing
Perry Brothers
Victrix
Black Scorpion
Artizan
Copplestone Castings
Warlord Games
Khurasan
you see why people are starting to see why people are starting to see GW as lacking in value for your dollar. And that isn't even counting up and coming companies like the guys who are doing Blackwater Gulch with what looks like some really good quality sculpts at a fraction of the price.
Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.
Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.
DarthOvious wrote: Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...
Wow, so now the main purpose of GW minis has gone from "playing a game", to "just buying it for painting and modelling purposes".
I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Army Books and new rules editions if people only use their models for painting and modelling purposes...
Also, I'm not the one manipulating facts, you are. Go to the Battle Reports section and let me know how many games bellow 1000 pts you see there beside some guy that is just starting the game.
Or go to the Tournament Discussion section and see how many tournaments are announced bellow 1000 pts.
Just because some people some times play some games bellow that threshold, doesn't mean that that is the norm. Just like some people only buying the miniatures to paint / model mean that that is their primary purpose! You accuse me of ignoring those aspects while you yourself are wilfully ignoring the vast majority of GW customers and the entire purpose of the minis existence trying to prove your "point"...
nkelsch wrote:When I see 3 horseymen from PP cost 55ish dollars, and 3 Horseymen from GW cost 55$ and a horseyman from AoR costs about 30$, they all cost the same to me when it boils out. So I buy what loosk best and what I want to paint.
The games mean nothing to a large portion of the consumer base. Thousands of customers never play the game and the perceived 'value' of the game and quantity of models is lost on them.
When you boil it down, everyone else's prices are pretty much close to GW's many more, many less. Those which are substantial cheaper often are inferior or ugly. When I see impressive cheap models, my experience has been there are fulfillment problems or after a year or two of cheap prices they raise prices as they didn't realize how much it actually costs to produce models when they move from 'garage kits' to 'full-blown mini producer'
None of it bothers me and I don't see a problem with any of the prices. If I like the model, I buy it. If I don't like it, I don't.
If you treat models as little more than forced tokens to a gamepiece and you care nothing for models, then yes, they may be expensive, but that is not the companies fault you are more interested in a game than the models.
3rd party small-run resins are also super expensive, I still buy them. Kromlech, maxmini and Puppetwars all make great models which are expensive... that is how it is.
Upvoted for a great post. To me it's all about the enjoyment I get out the hobby. I love 40k and Fantasy and thats it. I would probably like some other systems as well but I don't think I would enjoy them as much as 40k or Fantasy.
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brettz123 wrote:
Vermillion wrote:What shocks me most is that people will be up in arms that little plastic, resin and metal toys are going up in price and they cannot get as many, yet aren't protesting in the street about the insane increases in the cost of living. Energy costs, food, rent, taxes etc. are all far more important and many have got to the point where they are going without one of these things seen as essentials to try to cover the others.
)
Unfortunately for your point I need to buy food, I need to buy gas (energy) to go to work, I need to pay rent to have a place to live, and I need to pay taxes or I go to jail. Now I have cut back on gas by not driving so much but more importantly I don't need to buy GW stuff it is a luxury item that I can chose to buy or not to buy.
That was his point. There are people here up in arms talking about boycotts or whatever over items thay don't even need to survive but when it comes to other more essential costs they will sit back and do nothing when the cost goes up. Shouldn't they be more worried and more proactive about those costs going up that they DO NEED?
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PhantomViper wrote:
DarthOvious wrote: Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...
Wow, so now the main purpose of GW minis has gone from "playing a game", to "just buying it for painting and modelling purposes".
Strawman argument is a strawman. I didn't say that and the fact that you cut out what I actually said to post some drivel instead actually shows how disingenious you are. I said that Painting and modelling are part of the hobby. What I DID NOT SAY BUT YOU ARE ASSERTING THAT I DID SAY is that painting and modelling are the main parts of the hobby.
Go on, quote me where I said that and if you can't then you are a filthy liar.
I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Army Books and new rules editions if people only use their models for painting and modelling purposes...
If your reading comprehension was better then you would see i said this:
"First mistake right here. Modelling and painting are part of the hobby. You can't just discard them at your whim because you say so."
See the word part there? In your dictionary does the word part mean totality? If it does I suggest you take that dictionary back and ask for refund.
See, I've played this game before and I know how to play. I know all the fallcious arguments and logical fallacies that scum like you use in order to try and make yourselves look better than other people. Those games won't work on me Boyo.
now I'll use your same words against you again.
I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Paints and Multi-part kits if people only use their models for gaming purposes... Har de har har.
Also, I'm not the one manipulating facts, you are. Go to the Battle Reports section and let me know how many games bellow 1000 pts you see there beside some guy that is just starting the game.
Why don't you go to miniwargaming and see all the kill team battle reports they do. Why don't you go to 500pt double tournies like I do. How about you take part in a 750pt tournie like I will be doing in August.
The fact that most players play 1500pt to 2000pt games only go to prove the fact that they are willing to pay the money to play those points in the first place. Duh!!!!!
Or go to the Tournament Discussion section and see how many tournaments are announced bellow 1000 pts.
Ahem. Or I could look at the ones I took and take part in.
Just because some people some times play some games bellow that threshold, doesn't mean that that is the norm.
Meaing that they are willing to pay the money to play at those points. Heck I know guy down at my local store who has several armies. He plays Tau, Dark Eldar, Orks, Daemons, Space Marines and several other amries and he uses these armies to play in APOCALYPSE GAMES!!!!!!!
Just like some people only buying the miniatures to paint / model mean that that is their primary purpose!
I didn't say it was or wasn't and I proved that with my post. Now go and learn some logic and some argumentation skills.
You accuse me of ignoring those aspects while you yourself are wilfully ignoring the vast majority of GW customers and the entire purpose of the minis existence trying to prove your "point"...
Erm no I didn't. You did. You completely left out the modelling and painting aspect from your post and I reminded you of that and said it was PART of the hobby. You then constructed a strawman argument in your own mind suggesting that I was saying it the only part of the hobby, which I didn't. Not my fault that your school didn't teach you read right.
And I'm done, and I just embarrassed you in front of every other member of this board. How do feel? Do you feel dirty?
The only person that you've embarrassed is yourself.
Keep on moving those goalposts.
What on earth does the fact that painting and modelling is also part of the hobby has anything to do with GW raising prices on their miniatures making their primary purpose absurdly expensive to their target audience?
What on earth does the fact that you took part in a 500 pts doubles tournament (and how many 1000+ pts games have you done in the same time frame? No forget that, I'm sure you'd just twist the answer), has to do with the fact that that is NOT the main point of the miniatures or the game primary playing mode? Anecdotal evidence is anedoctal: when I started demoing WM in my LGS, I only had a single starter box and an extra Warcaster, so I divided the warjacks in the starter between both warcasters and demoed the game that way... I guess you can play WMH with just 2 miniatures! How economic of PP!
Further anecdotal evidence: the guy that demoed Infinity to me, only used 3 figures on each side during the demo, I guess you can play Infinity with only 3 models as well! Way to go CB!
You do realise that the title of this thread is "The Economics Behind GW Price Increases" and that your posts are supposed to be seen under that context right? Because if like, say, Mike McVey, their figures where considered highly collectable items for painters, then the high prices wouldn't matter so much. But when those price rises are seen in the context of the GW game normal playing mode, then that makes GW the most expensive miniatures maker in the market by over DOUBLE their closest competitors cost.
It doesn't matter if you can play the game with just 1 miniature, that is not the normal playing mode.
It doesn't matter that you can use the miniatures to paint and model, you can do the same with every other miniature in the market, and that is not their primary purpose.
It doesn't matter that someone has managed to built 10 GW armies of 25000 points each in current GW prices, there are allot of people in the world with money to burn, considering that GW has lost on average 5 - 10 % sales volume in these past years, their current business model doesn't look very health in the medium future.
Ever single one of your arguments is completely irrelevant to both this thread and in the light of GW's own business model and they are only made so you can try and make GW seem just as expensive as everyone else... they are not!
You wan't further proof of that? GW is loosing sales volumes while PP, CB, Wyrd and BF, just to name the most famous brands, are expanding at an almost exponential rate.
PhantomViper wrote:The only person that you've embarrassed is yourself.
No I embarrassed you.
Keep on moving those goalposts.
Where? Where did I move them? I showed where you misquoted me and where you made a strawman argument. Now you show me where I moved any goalposts because I didn't.
What on earth does the fact that painting and modelling is also part of the hobby has anything to do with GW raising prices on their miniatures making their primary purpose absurdly expensive to their target audience?
Because you said this and I was responding to it.
PhantomViper wrote: Yeah... No, you're wrong.
You can even play 10pts of 40K if you like, but if the normal tournament points are 1500+, if the points advocated in the rulebook as "normal" are in the 1000-2000 pts range, then that is what the majority of games played by the majority of people will be like.
Saying that you can't compare the normal army cost because you can play the game with a single miniature is misleading (and just a "marketing" ploy to try and make GW appear more favourable cost wise)...
You were complaining because you need to buy more models & more pointage in order to play the game while disregarding that more models means that you play a bigger game, have more models to glue and configure/convert and also more models to paint. Hence more enjoyment time for your purchases. I informed you that you were missing this from the equation in the cost of things. i.e More things meaning more money but also more enjoyment time, and you basically then flipped the lid because you fail to understand this relatively simple point.
If I pay £35 for a Xbox game I get the game for that price. Additional content via download will cost me extra. It doesn't matter if it's the same freaking game. I get more for my money. You can't complain about needing to buy "more things" in order to play the game when all you have to do is just not buy the additionals and just play the smaller game.
Its akin to you moaning about having to buy the download content for Assassins Creed Revelations because it costs extra money just to get those additonal parts of the storyline. So what? Just don't buy it and save your money and just play with what you've got already.
What on earth does the fact that you took part in a 500 pts doubles tournament (and how many 1000+ pts games have you done in the same time frame? No forget that, I'm sure you'd just twist the answer), has to do with the fact that that is NOT the main point of the miniatures or the game primary playing mode?
I never said it was or wasn't the main part you freaking idiot and I proved that with my post and showed what I actually said instead of your demented twisted strawman. What is it that you do not understand about the word "part". Is it too fricking difficult for you to decipher? Do I need to reference a dictionary?
noun
1. a portion or division of a whole that is separate or distinct; piece, fragment, fraction, or section; constituent: the rear part of the house; to glue the two parts together.
2. an essential or integral attribute or quality: a sense of humor is part of a healthy personality.
3. a section or division of a literary work.
4. a portion, member, or organ of an animal body.
5. any of a number of more or less equal quantities that compose a whole or into which a whole is divided: Use two parts sugar to one part cocoa.
The 500pt doubles tournie I played in was at WARHAMMER WORLD, and freaking heck, they even had a tournie pack for this all made up for this, so it isn't obviously that rare to occur, especially since not only did my local store have this tournament but also the other store I go to in the city did this on a SEPARATE DATE.. Not to mention that the fact that many people play 1500 to 2000 pts only goes to show that they can AFFORD to play at those points levels. Here is the rules pack for 750pts.
So they have a 500pt doubles for LotR coming up, a 875pt 40k doubles coming up and a 750pt doubles coming up.
Oh, look, you were wrong. There are plenty of tournaments that allow you to bring less than 1000pts to them.
Anecdotal evidence is anedoctal: when I started demoing WM in my LGS, I only had a single starter box and an extra Warcaster, so I divided the warjacks in the starter between both warcasters and demoed the game that way... I guess you can play WMH with just 2 miniatures! How economic of PP!
Yes, just call what I said anecdotal evidence. It doesn't matter if I'm right. It doesn't matter that I pointed you towards 200pt kill team batreps at miniwargaming. It doesn't matter that GAMES WORKSHOP themselves held these doubles tournaments and they held them for DIFFERENT AREAS. My store and another store got together for a 500pt doubles and also the other stores in the nearby area got together and held a 500pt doubles tournie, but of course that is all just anecdotal evidence
Further anecdotal evidence: the guy that demoed Infinity to me, only used 3 figures on each side during the demo, I guess you can play Infinity with only 3 models as well! Way to go CB!
I'm talking about tournies and you're talking about demo games. You honestly don't see the difference here in this?
Also if you want to play Inifinity with 3 models then that is fine and dandy with me. I don't care. But then you can always hold a character tournie for 40k and just have 1 model on the table. Which by the way some people got together to actually do. Guess I win then.
You do realise that the title of this thread is "The Economics Behind GW Price Increases" and that your posts are supposed to be seen under that context right?
The title of the thread is irrelevant because I was replying to YOUR POST. So it is the CONTENTS OF YOUR POST that actually matters, not the bloody thread title.
Because if like, say, Mike McVey, their figures where considered highly collectable items for painters, then the high prices wouldn't matter so much. But when those price rises are seen in the context of the GW game normal playing mode, then that makes GW the most expensive miniatures maker in the market by over DOUBLE their closest competitors cost.
And I explained the concept of buying more stuff = paying more money. You still don't seem to be grasping this concept.
Perhaps you want golf manufacturers to make fewer clubs? Maybe making fewer clubs will lower the overall price just enough for you so you could join the game huh? Nevermind the damage to the flexibility of the game Or how about making the game shorter to just 9 holes and then asking the golf club to lower your green fees since you don't play as much as the other people at the club.
It doesn't matter if you can play the game with just 1 miniature, that is not the normal playing mode.
So what? You still don't seem to be grasping the concept of buying more stuff = paying more money. If I buy a game for the Xbox then I don't complain about having to pay for all the download content that costs extra. I don't go "Wah the normal playing mode of the game requires me to spend more on this than other games". Stop whining and stop being a big baby about it.
It doesn't matter that you can use the miniatures to paint and model, you can do the same with every other miniature in the market, and that is not their primary purpose.
Excuse me it is still a purpose of the mini's and there are plenty of people out there who DON'T PLAY but buy the models to paint and convert. This is very disingenious of you to ignore people like that. It is also very disingenious of you to downplay the painting part of the hobby. If its not a big part of the hobby then why do GW sell paints? Why did they go to all the trouble of increasing their paint range to 145 colours? Why do they have painting stations in their store? Why do they offer free painting lessons to people who want them. Obviously they think that the painting part is just a minimal part of the hobby /sarcasm Reality sir disagrees with you very strongly here. Yes the gaming part is important but so is the painting part and modelling part. Otherwise why make multi-part plastic kits at all? You may as well just sell full minis for eveything.
It doesn't matter that someone has managed to built 10 GW armies of 25000 points each in current GW prices, there are allot of people in the world with money to burn, considering that GW has lost on average 5 - 10 % sales volume in these past years, their current business model doesn't look very health in the medium future.
Yes, they have lost customers, no doubt. Thats because stupid people like you do not realise the simple concept of buying more stuff = paying more money. Also lots of shops have been losing buisness. For instance Game went into administration earlier this year. Does that mean that all the gaming companies are screwing up? No, it doesn't. it just means people have less disposable income than they used to. However the companies can't afford to decrease their prices either so it is a catch 22 situation. Not to mention that people have been leaving GW FOR OTHER REASONS. Some people stopped buying because of finecast issues or for other things they percieved to be unethical. I have no problem with that and I agree that finecast needs to improve. However you're whole argument centres on "oh my gosh!!! I needz to pay more money to playz the gamez" without taking into consideration that its a larger game to play, you get more models for that extra cash you spend and you get more painting and crafting time with those models.
Ever single one of your arguments is completely irrelevant to both this thread and in the light of GW's own business model and they are only made so you can try and make GW seem just as expensive as everyone else... they are not!
Once again I was replying to YOU. It doesn't matter what the freaking thread is about. The only context that matters is what YOU SAID. I know its a difficult point for you to understand, but perhaps one day the wizard will grant you a brain. As for the second part, that is one big strawman again. My word you just can't stop stacking these logical fallacies can you? I didn't say "just as expensive as everyone else... ", what I actually said was this:
"Yes, you need to pay more to typically play 40k, but as stated on a model basis you pay the same, so yes you spend more but you are getting MORE MODELS. That is more models to play with, more models to paint, more models to configure, etc,etc. So guess what? You get a lot more enjoyment time from them on that basis."
But please keep stacking those strawmen. I know its difficult for you to actually understand what people are saying. If only you actually paid attention in your English class.
You wan't further proof of that? GW is loosing sales volumes while PP, CB, Wyrd and BF, just to name the most famous brands, are expanding at an almost exponential rate.
Point addressed above.
So what? Sainsburys makes more money than ASDA but that doesn't mean that Sainsbury is cheaper. Actually Sainsburys is more expensive but people like their products more. Since I actually addressed the rest above in concerns to people leaving GW for OTHER REASONS and not just price rises then I don't think I need to cover more.
Actually, Asda aren't all that cheap. But, for whatever reason they seem to have the reputation for being so.
Also if you want to play Inifinity with 3 models then that is fine and dandy with me. I don't care. But then you can always hold a character tournie for 40k and just have 1 model on the table... Guess I win then.
I think the only thing that comes from this discussion is that you lose... both of you
Excuse me but he blantantly cut out what I said, rephrased it in his own hashed out words and then proceded to misrepresent what I said with strawmen and I actually SHOWED where he did this. But no of course, I just be the one who is the troll.
I was perfectly civil up to this point. Look at it again why don't you. Its this one where he does this:
Phantomviper wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...
Wow, so now the main purpose of GW minis has gone from "playing a game", to "just buying it for painting and modelling purposes".
I must have missed GW's announcement of their change of MO... I wonder why they take all that time and effort to release Army Books and new rules editions if people only use their models for painting and modelling purposes...
Also, I'm not the one manipulating facts, you are. Go to the Battle Reports section and let me know how many games bellow 1000 pts you see there beside some guy that is just starting the game.
Or go to the Tournament Discussion section and see how many tournaments are announced bellow 1000 pts.
Just because some people some times play some games bellow that threshold, doesn't mean that that is the norm. Just like some people only buying the miniatures to paint / model mean that that is their primary purpose! You accuse me of ignoring those aspects while you yourself are wilfully ignoring the vast majority of GW customers and the entire purpose of the minis existence trying to prove your "point"...
See that? He blatantly replaced my words with "Lots of irrelevant arguments and moving the goal posts of the discussion...". After taking my words out, so other people couldn't see them within the post he then went onto a strawman based argument where he said that I was apparently saying that the painting and modelling part of the hobby was the primary part of the hobby when I didn't say that.
What I actually said was:
"Modelling and painting are part of the hobby".
Am I wrong when I say this? Is this somehow false? Is modelling and painting not part of the hobby? Am I making things up here?
Pacific wrote:Actually, Asda aren't all that cheap. But, for whatever reason they seem to have the reputation for being so.
I used to work for them while I was back at Uni. My experience says they are slightly cheaper than Tesco but not by much. Could have changed now I guess. However they are defintely cheaper than Sainsburys.
Also if you want to play Inifinity with 3 models then that is fine and dandy with me. I don't care. But then you can always hold a character tournie for 40k and just have 1 model on the table... Guess I win then.
I think the only thing that comes from this discussion is that you lose... both of you
Obviously I was being humourous. However I do actually know of a tournie that was held in this fashion. Basically it was just knock out rounds of 40k characters to determine who was the best. At the time it was done, it was The Sanguinor that actually won it. . Don't know if he would win it now though.
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TedNugent wrote:I've got a crazy idea, maybe some people enjoy wargaming just as much as painting and modeling.
I know, wacky, crazy, totally silly, but I'm gonna say it anyway and see who froths at the mouth.
You're right. People enjoy doing both. Some people enjoy doing one while not doing the other. I know people who play but don't really like the modelling/painting side of things (but they have to do it) but I also know people who don't play but love the modelling & painting side of things. I haven't said otherwise in all I've said but for some reason phantomviper seems to think that I have said something completely different.
Personally I think he is deliberately doing it because he doesn't want to address the points made.
TedNugent wrote:I've got a crazy idea, maybe some people enjoy wargaming just as much as painting and modeling.
I know, wacky, crazy, totally silly, but I'm gonna say it anyway and see who froths at the mouth.
Sounds like Heresy to me!!!! the Emperor demands from you a... Taco!!!
But really I agree with you on your comment. I mean painting and modeling and then playing a game with another human being instead of looking at pixels on a monitor? Brilliant!
Especially if there is pizza and beer involved. Good times are at hand.
True, that arguement also ignores that GW operate worldwide through their overseas HQs and retail arms. They incur costs at the local rate therefore are inclined to track prices against local salaries.
PP et al only operate in their own territories therefore have costs based upon that area. Whether they supply across the US, Europe or Australasia they can set one rate as it all comes from one place.
GW have manufacturing costs of 27% before retail costs are taken, reducing their margin to 10-12% iirc. Assuming PP can produce at the same cost what are their owners spending the remainder on?
This part of your post was well thought out, but it does kind of highlight one of GW's apparent failures, and something unique to the HHHobby. By not trying to compete against local retail presences, PP has kept their costs low, while GW has tried all they can to increase their overall profits, from their 1 man store model, to the yearly price increase, but the money they make year to year is mostly flat, with sales declining. As to what PP does with that extra money, my guess is employing more than 15 people in their studio judging by the rate at which they churn out new releases. At this point, GW almost looks like a couple guys in their garage when it takes them a decade and a half to fully update their main line.
On the "cost" of armies between games, it really shouldn't need a comparison, as an obvious fan of PP, even I can admit their prices are on par with GW, though less overall when collecting "standard" size forces. Can you play with less or more with either game, sure you can, you can collect and play at whatever point value you can find an opponent for.
Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.
Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.
And that is why I am not arguing that the cost is the main issue. And I mentioned a lot of companies and you only looked at one. I could also add in Spartan Games and Malifaux. All quality sculpts and almost all of them are cheaper to boot. Now not all are cheaper but again my point was only that GW is not the only good company anymore and they are not pricing themselves to be competitive. This is going to become a serious problem for GW if they do not stop their annual price increase.
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DarthOvious wrote:
brettz123 wrote:
Unfortunately for your point I need to buy food, I need to buy gas (energy) to go to work, I need to pay rent to have a place to live, and I need to pay taxes or I go to jail. Now I have cut back on gas by not driving so much but more importantly I don't need to buy GW stuff it is a luxury item that I can chose to buy or not to buy.
That was his point. There are people here up in arms talking about boycotts or whatever over items thay don't even need to survive but when it comes to other more essential costs they will sit back and do nothing when the cost goes up. Shouldn't they be more worried and more proactive about those costs going up that they DO NEED?
Boycotts can be useful though I would not support one. The discussion you are taking us towards is well beyond the scope of this discussion but yes it would make sense for someone to be more upset about the rise in essential items. Though that doesn't preclude them from being upset at the rise in non-essential items either. So not really a good argument on his part or yours. This thread isn't about gas prices or food prices. So of course you are correct but it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.
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DarthOvious wrote:
I never said it was or wasn't the main part you freaking idiot and I proved that with my post and showed what I actually said instead of your demented twisted strawman. What is it that you do not understand about the word "part". Is it too fricking difficult for you to decipher? Do I need to reference a dictionary?
Is there some reason you are personally attacking people?
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DarthOvious wrote:
holycow wrote:don't feed the troll, phantom
Excuse me but he blantantly cut out what I said, rephrased it in his own hashed out words and then proceded to misrepresent what I said with strawmen and I actually SHOWED where he did this. But no of course, I just be the one who is the troll.
I was perfectly civil up to this point. Look at it again why don't you. Its this one where he does this:
I have yet to figure out how two models of a man on a horse that cost exactly the same is somehow cheaper because one game allows you to play with 1-5 horsemen and another allows you to play with 1-10 horsemen. Especially to someone looking to buy only one man on a horse model.
GW has explicitly said a large number of their customers never play the game. People do buy the models for the models. PP may run a better business with their sales and such, but they are not cheaper. They still produce a highly priced model compared to the rest of the industry. I fell they are totally worth it, but I am not going to pretend they are cheaper.
I own a bunch of PP models and never played the game and don't even have a legal army. I just buy what looks neat and I like to paint. Not sure how I am somehow mor satisfied because someone somewhere needs less models to play with. Not sure how it makes the model I purchase cheaper.
Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.
Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.
And that is why I am not arguing that the cost is the main issue. And I mentioned a lot of companies and you only looked at one. I could also add in Spartan Games and Malifaux. All quality sculpts and almost all of them are cheaper to boot. Now not all are cheaper but again my point was only that GW is not the only good company anymore and they are not pricing themselves to be competitive. This is going to become a serious problem for GW if they do not stop their annual price increase.
I don't think they can stop. At the end of the day how much profit are they actually making? People keep saying that their annual profits are continuing to go down and down. How can they be making a massive profit margin from the kits they sell, but when looking at their yearly reports they're not actually doing too great profit wise? You see thats the point, everyone here is under the false impression that GW are making a ridiculous profit on each kit they sell but then their reports don't really show that. A good amount of their profits even come from IP that they sell onto video games.
Boycotts can be useful though I would not support one. The discussion you are taking us towards is well beyond the scope of this discussion but yes it would make sense for someone to be more upset about the rise in essential items. Though that doesn't preclude them from being upset at the rise in non-essential items either. So not really a good argument on his part or yours. This thread isn't about gas prices or food prices. So of course you are correct but it doesn't have anything to do with the discussion at hand.
I was pointing out what the other guy was saying. In a sense he is correct that it is weird that nobody boycotts rising gas prices but then they will get together to boycott lil plastic men. There is relevance to it in the discussion though since it is being used as a comparison. I wouldn't just throw out his argument like that. It is pefectly acceptable to make an argument based on a analogy and this is even performed in the realm of philosophy.
Is there some reason you are personally attacking people?
Already explained why. When somebody cuts out my post and then replaces it with drivel and then misrepresents my argument I assume they are doing it deliberately and therefore are being disingenious.
And this excuses your poor behavior how?
Lets just say I use a polemic style of discussion when it comes to these kind of people.
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nkelsch wrote:I have yet to figure out how two models of a man on a horse that cost exactly the same is somehow cheaper because one game allows you to play with 1-5 horsemen and another allows you to play with 1-10 horsemen. Especially to someone looking to buy only one man on a horse model.
GW has explicitly said a large number of their customers never play the game. People do buy the models for the models. PP may run a better business with their sales and such, but they are not cheaper. They still produce a highly priced model compared to the rest of the industry. I fell they are totally worth it, but I am not going to pretend they are cheaper.
I own a bunch of PP models and never played the game and don't even have a legal army. I just buy what looks neat and I like to paint. Not sure how I am somehow mor satisfied because someone somewhere needs less models to play with. Not sure how it makes the model I purchase cheaper.
Ozymandias wrote:I’ll start with the disclaimer. I do have a degree in Economics, but it’s been years since I graduated and I don’t really use it in my day to day job. So I’m sure some of you will pipe up with how I got some specific or another wrong, but it’s been awhile so take it easy.
So how can GW continue to raise prices? While it is true that some of us will buy less or quit altogether, they continue to raise prices every year at a rate beyond inflation. How can they do that and still be profitable year after year? I’ve seen a lot of posts saying “It’s simply economics, if you lower price, you sell more,” and while that may be true, the way it actually works is much more complex than that.
It comes down to an economic principle called price elasticity of demand. What this means is that some products are considered elastic while others are more inelastic. An elastic product is one where as the price increases, the overall revenue ($) goes down. Think of this like butter. If the price of butter increases, you buy olive oil instead and don’t buy butter (an imperfect example, but I think you get the idea). A perfectly elastic product would be one that if there is any change in price the quantity goes to zero. Lots of items in our day to day lives are considered elastic, especially ones with lots of alternatives.
Now an inelastic product is something that even if the price increases, the drop in quantity is not enough to offset the revenue increase from the price increase. Gasoline is a classic example of this. As the price of gas goes up, people may buy less, but the overall revenue from sales of gasoline either increase or stay the same. A perfectly inelastic product is one that no matter the change in price, the quantity doesn’t change. Luxury goods are usually considered inelastic. If the price of a Lexus goes up 10%, overall revenue of Lexus’ either goes up or stays the same.
Wargaming models are generally considered luxury goods. They aren’t a necessity, there aren’t a lot of substitutions. and gamers are generally pretty brand loyal. Wargaming models, in particular warhammer models, are inelastic. So if GW raises the price of everything by 10%, they may see a decline in the total quantity sold, but not in the overall revenue of their products.
Now, since no product is perfectly inelastic, there comes a point in every product where the increase in price does not mean an increase in revenue. GW is operating under the assumption (and probably rightly so) that they have not hit that threshold yet. Until GW’s price increase does not correspond to an increase in sales, they have no reason NOT to increase prices. It pisses a lot of us off (myself included), it prices some people out of the hobby (I’m getting close there), but until it actually affects their bottom line, it makes economic sense (maybe not marketing sense, but that’s another topic), to continue to raise prices.
Hope that helps clear up the reasoning behind GW's price increases, now let's all stop buying stuff so they hit that threshold!
Interesting reminder. Cool. However, GW's most successfull competition, Privateer Press, have had an influx of customers lately. Those people may largely be those who were dissatisfied with GW and did not buy much in the past few years anyway (like me), but I think that the fact that Warmachine is becoming more widespread will increase the elasticity of GW products quite soon.
I was pointing out what the other guy was saying. In a sense he is correct that it is weird that nobody boycotts rising gas prices but then they will get together to boycott lil plastic men. There is relevance to it in the discussion though since it is being used as a comparison. I wouldn't just throw out his argument like that. It is pefectly acceptable to make an argument based on a analogy and this is even performed in the realm of philosophy.
.
I'm not trying to put words in other peoples mouths but I think what they are really saying is that if you simply look at the cost of production of a kit then GW is making a huge profit on that kit. Now obviously GW as a company has other associated costs that they need to consider when pricing a kit like their retail chain costs etc etc. But that doesn't change the perception that someone is paying $75 for something that might only cost $5 to produce. Those aren't exact numbers but they illustrate the cost.
My concern is that you may be correct that GW cannot stop the cycle at this point because they need to increase costs in order to offset falling interest in their IP. But either way perpetual increasing of the price will eventually kill the company. Especially considering there are not only cheaper alternatives for your hobby dollar but perhaps even more importantly alternatives that don't treat their customers so poorly.
Obviously when you're below the povery line you can't even think of playing miniature wargaming. Most of the people who play it here are rich. I can afford it right now because I don't have a family to support, and I'm somewhere in the middle class.
It would also explain why only a handful of people do wargaming here. It's hard to justify to your family why your hobby is so expensive.
I think its important to look beyond the price per minature.
As this is not the only factor in the percived value for money , which is the MAIN point.
A collector-painter may be happy to pay Studio Mc Vey £50 for a limited edition single minature, becuase the 'awsomnes of the sculpt' is so apealing to them they think it is very good value for money.
But they wouldnt buy a box of 10 for £500!
As they only need ONE for display.
Looking at Mantic Games at the other end of the spectrum.
They sell an army box with 140 minatures in for £99.
These minatures are not good enough for individual display,(IMO,) but they are great for playing a war game with massed ranks of troops.As an army they look great painted up.
(And have the rules and all the army lists included in the boxed set.)
These are obviously for gamers to play games with...
(To buy the same amount of minatures and rule book and army list from GW plc costs over £300!BTW)
Collectors will buy whatever minature takes thier fancy, as its value is subjective to them.(You like what you like its as simple as that.Someone thought the Pumbagor and Chaos Ogres
were good!)
Why dont customers moan about other companies prices?
Well becuase the collectors just buy what they want from where they want when they want.They dont see the point in complaining as they buy so few minatures compared to gamers.
(Collectors dont buy 5 x SMtac boxed sets for example.But maybe just one character model)
Gamers probably feel the other companies actualy care about the game play , and new editions are to improve the game, not just an excuse to sell you more product at inflated prices!
And they get direct feed back on other companies web sites, from the game developers etc.
GW plc shut thier own forums down .
The PERCIVED value for money , for a gamer is...
How much cash outlay & how much time spent preparing minatures , before they get to play a full sized game.
Compared to how good the game play/rules set is for the game.
No wonder GW plc is loosing sales volumes faster and faster each year..
'GW plc is investing heavily in plastic productions to lower the cost of entry to our wonderful hobby.This is the way to grow our buisness and delight our customers.'
Maximising the economies of scale , inherrant bonus of plastic production.
Then changes to...
'Irrespctive of material the minatures are made from, they are worth the same to our loyal GW customers.'
Why change to plastic production if you are NOT going to maximise the economies of scale?
Selling less and less with greater mark up, only works for luxury items where the prestige of ownership makes up the percived value for money.
It does NOT apply to plastic toy soldiers .
Lanrak wrote: Selling less and less with greater mark up, only works for luxury items where the prestige of ownership makes up the percived value for money. It does NOT apply to plastic toy soldiers .
Works for some designer labels. Make stuff cheap in a sweat shop and then sell is for some vast amounts to kids who are obsessed with being brand-loyal. In fact targeting kids with over-priced stuff in the manner of designer-labels explains a lot about some of GW's approaches. Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.
I don't see PP or Mantic promoting 3rd parties or acknowledging that their game is designed to be used with anything but THIER brand...
I am not sure any company 'likes' thier competition either. I am not sure how this argument that GW promotes their models and markets them as if in a vacuum as that is fairly common to not acknowledge your competitors. I don't see any other mini companies other than 3rd companies acknowledging or wanting their customers to play anything but their game and their game alone.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.
I don't see PP or Mantic promoting 3rd parties or acknowledging that their game is designed to be used with anything but THIER brand...
I am not sure any company 'likes' thier competition either. I am not sure how this argument that GW promotes their models and markets them as if in a vacuum as that is fairly common to not acknowledge your competitors. I don't see any other mini companies other than 3rd companies acknowledging or wanting their customers to play anything but their game and their game alone.
Because those games don't leave niches to be filled by 3rd parties? And PP and Mantic both actually do promote and partner with at least one third party, just not for models. They both have a working relationship with Battlefoam, and I've seen advertisements for them in No Quarter. In the past PP had an official partnership with Gale Force Nine, which I'm still sorry they didn't keep up, those dice tins were awesome.
Howard A Treesong wrote: Their push for customers to be GW purist in their games for a start, and a hatred of any sort of competition.
I don't see PP or Mantic promoting 3rd parties or acknowledging that their game is designed to be used with anything but THIER brand...
I am not sure any company 'likes' thier competition either. I am not sure how this argument that GW promotes their models and markets them as if in a vacuum as that is fairly common to not acknowledge your competitors. I don't see any other mini companies other than 3rd companies acknowledging or wanting their customers to play anything but their game and their game alone.
Because those games don't leave niches to be filled by 3rd parties? And PP and Mantic both actually do promote and partner with at least one third party, just not for models. They both have a working relationship with Battlefoam, and I've seen advertisements for them in No Quarter. In the past PP had an official partnership with Gale Force Nine, which I'm still sorry they didn't keep up, those dice tins were awesome.
I got you, if you pretend you are the entirety of the hobby like PP and Mantic from day one and keep the rules limited to the models you produce at the time you are ok. If you release rules for models that call for conversions like GW, you have to acknowledge 3rd parties or people get all angry. But it is ok for mantic and PP to market in a vacuum because they have no "holes" to exploit by 3rd parties.I really see no difference between the 3 companies in how they sell their minis and how they market thier models are the only models that exist for their games.
There is a reason GW deleted the rules for blood bowl star players and is going to a system of not releasing a codex without 100% of the models.
Partnering with a foam company... Last time I checked, making foam cases was not a hobby. Foam cases are not a hobby any more than there are paint brush collectors or tape measure conventions.
nkelsch wrote:
I got you, if you pretend you are the entirety of the hobby like PP and Mantic from day one and keep the rules limited to the models you produce at the time you are ok. If you release rules for models that call for conversions like GW, you have to acknowledge 3rd parties or people get all angry. But it is ok for mantic and PP to market in a vacuum because they have no "holes" to exploit by 3rd parties.I really see no difference between the 3 companies in how they sell their minis and how they market thier models are the only models that exist for their games.
There is a reason GW deleted the rules for blood bowl star players and is going to a system of not releasing a codex without 100% of the models.
Partnering with a foam company... Last time I checked, making foam cases was not a hobby. Foam cases are not a hobby any more than there are paint brush collectors or tape measure conventions.
I don't think either of those companies pretend they're the entirety of the hobby, perhaps you can provide an example where they've done so, as GW does when it labels itself the GW Hobby? Also, since we don't have examples of third party minis for the other games, mostly because they're completely unnecessary as those companies don't leave unfilled holes in their ranges for years at a time, it's impossible to know how they'd react, if at all. We've seen how GW reacts, though, and they don't generally come out looking better for it, regardless if they were right or wrong, which I have no qualification to speak to, perception by their customer base is a large part of their market presence. They, or any company, can make the best product out there, but if they alienate enough customers, they're not going to get very far. By your last line, though I'm wondering if you have any interest in a real conversation on the matter, or if you'd rather just resort to rhetoric. You claimed that PP and Mantic don't promote third parties, you didn't specifically mention that you were only speaking of miniatures. I can't think of any miniatures company that is out there promoting other mini companies products, other than those 3rd party add on places that require the main kit, that doesn't mean there isn't room for other partnerships.
Also, if you get into historicals, Warlord and Empress have some sort of agreement for their Zulu wars stuff, and alot of the guns/baggage the Perrys use is by someone else if I recall correctly.
As for the main discussion, as I've posted before, anyone who thinks that GW's high prices have any justification other than "they can, so they do" should look at the Perry WotR plastic boxes. Just as much/more bits as I've ever seen in a GW box set (though admittedly I haven't bought any recent releases), with just as much detail as the GW ones, hell, the Perry's sculpt for GW. Now if going through a third party to get the molds made and models produced still leaves the Perrys with profit after selling them at ~30USD/40 men, why the hell GW charges 25usd/10men is only because suckers keep paying it. Now I'm not going to come out and say I'll never buy anything GW again (recently tracked down just about everything I need that I can't use substitutes for to do every force for LotR), because they do occasionally produce some nice stuff, and if I don't need it in large numbers, I might splurge (so long as it isn't Finecast, but that's for another thread). But over 90% of my hobby budget will be going to people like the Perrys, Warlord, Mantic, Gripping Beast, etc, and when I do get GW stuff I won't be getting direct from them. Also, to put price rises in comparison: Since the release of the first Perry Plastics in 2008, their prices have gone up %20 (15->18 GBP) over 5 years, 4% per year avg. While GW's have gone up 300% over 11 years, 27% per year. (using the example of LotR plastics, when they started you could get 24 for 20 CADIIRC, other examples may vary).
Great conversation guys, and some awesome points brought up. I agree that GW's policies are based in an old school mentality of moving units and maximizing profits. The problem is, they aren't selling sprockets here, they're selling a hobby that is essentially a community driven experience.
I think they are going to wake up to a rude reality when the ease of manufacturing that technology is bringing to the masses narrows the technical gap between them and the small business person.
Their aggressive pricing, lack of understanding of their customers and blindness to their competition are all going to hurt them long term, IMO.
I am posting parts of this conversation to our blog for our story tomorrow morning at www.frontlinegaming.org if any of you want to join in there. I thought it was a really interesting and informative discussion.
Mantic also sell Hasslefree minis through their webstore. Hell, they might not tacitly acknowledge it, but their entire range is designed to replace GW equivalents - just because Mantic have their own rulesets doesn't mean their raison d'etre is to be solely Mantic only; the company was founded by ex_GW staff looking to fill the gaps that GW has left behind/ignored.
Possibly the best example of thrid party support is Battlefront. They own Wargames Illustrated, loosely speaking the White Dwarf of historcial wargaming, and it is full of adverts for other companies and other companies products are extensively (usually exclusively) featured in articles. They even run adverts by some companies that produce direct competition to their own products. Its not full support by any means (it is very rare to have a WWII article that doesn't feature FoW and these are always at a different scale).
I will say however that GW being a far larger company obviously has more to lose in acknowledging the existence of competitors, be it through even something simple like terrain manufacturing. When was the last time you read in WD about something for a conversion/terrain building being available from a 'good local model shop'? It's quite possible to buy a GW gaming board, paint and texture it with GW goods, then buy GW miniatures and paints without ever stepping outside the shop.
It is obviously in the interest of the company for this to be the case. Nkelsch, I think this is probably why (as you pointed out in another thread) everyone seems to throw their toys out of the pram if GW even accidentally post so much as a grain of flock from another manufacturer in a picture on the website - there is an actual, concerted effort on GW's part to maintain a complete domination of the market place, and for customers (mainly young kids who step into their shops) to be completely unaware that there is any other manufacturer doing the same thing. In fact, the company's continuing success depends on it.
But how much of this is deliberate, or just an accidental part of the company's marketing strategy? Even Rick Priestly said when he left GW (about a year ago) in an interview that their was absolutely no recognition of any competitors within the marketplace from the upper brass of the company. This is why there is such a disparity between the price of their games and miniatures and those of other companies, and they don't feel the need to significantly update or try and bring exciting new products to the market. Which of course they can get away with while they have such a strong high-street presence and are still the largest player in the industry. However, I do think it is a dangerous path to tread in light of the added communication and advertising methods made possible by the internet and other technology.
I would love GW to start fighting back, and to start taking customers back that they have lost to PP, Corvus Belli and others. Don't just trot out the same stuff, year after year with an extra nob or whistle added or removed (which 6th edition will almost certainly be) - use their position as the biggest company in the marketplace, and the capital they possess, to start making genuinely new and exciting games. Push miniature design forwards with new 3D printing technology and start investigating pre-painted to draw even more people into wargaming, and even more use of Smart phone and Tablet technology. The creation of the downloadable codex was an important step, and they need to keep up that momentum - keep pushing forward, and shake off the 'archaic dinosaur' feeling surrounding the company, where it appears to be slowly slipping into the mire.
The beer analogies are interesting on this thread but from a painter collector point of view looking at finecast you should have been comparing beer with urine...
NAVARRO wrote:The beer analogies are interesting on this thread but from a painter collector point of view looking at finecast you should have been comparing beer with urine...
+++That was his point. There are people here up in arms talking about boycotts or whatever over items thay don't even need to survive but when it comes to other more essential costs they will sit back and do nothing when the cost goes up. Shouldn't they be more worried and more proactive about those costs going up that they DO NEED?+++
*not sure who typed this, someone on page 1 or 3 or something:
Da point is, largely people whom DO jump up and down about the increases to cost of living etc, are plainly ignored, prices increase, bills need paying yet where does that magic genie bottle or endless sack of gold come into the equation when less $$$ = less stuff (regardless if needed or "wanted", some could argue that want leads to need or vice versa. ie you want a new LR, it gives you some escapism from the dreary humdrum grind, therefore one of your "NEEDS" has been met on the Hobby side of things via spending time being creative, and gaining benefit from doing so *something concrete* instead of say Complaining about X,Y,Z)?????
Because in real life if you don't have something you go WITHOUT, and due to increases in inflation decreases to personal expendable income mean's what little was to be had ie food on the table or gas in the fuel tank is all that much less than previously (in most cases further pushing the economic DT even further *ie making middle class the new lower class* sorry may be offtopic, but alot of commentators live in LALALA land)
realistically this means that the Cd or book or WHATEVER is now out of your reach. i'm a wargamer since 1997, some could say i am heavily Vested/rather large interest in this hobby (GW and others), i'm far from being rich, i'm on disability pension i own alot of models, but this isn't about me (or my miniatures expenditure, rather being pushed to the side....what my loyalty means JACK ALL, aren't us gamers allowed to vent on a online forum which undoubtly the topic thread would thus delve into against for or personal bias/opinion). it's about the hobby that so many of us ENJOY, yet REALISTICALLY are pissed off, that being a loyal supporter means NOTHING.
since 1997 i have personally bought just under $12000 from various gaming companies (my choice/my money). i did/done so because i ENJOY gaming. increasing prices is only going to see more people outside the hobby arena.
it's a rich persons hobby that i hear, i cry BS to that. you need money to play yeah sure, but i'm barely scraping poverty line yet if i can scrape through for 15 years below mininum wage and still wargame then the rest of you can/should quit whinging about others whinging.
the others are whinging/complaining because the hobby that they grew up with is now too FREAKING EXPENSIVE. Note: if people cannot understand this in this context really do live in LALA land (no offence to anyone in particular, as i said earlier it's not about you me or your gaming buddies, it's about THE hobby WE enjoy!!! and being priced out ) . this bascially applies to food, prostitutes, gas, PC, Whatever makes your life mean something "MORE", something to say, uh....that this 15 yrs hasn't been a waste of TIME EFFORT AND MONEY....and i know i'm not alone in my assertation of this fact!!!!!!
Automatically Appended Next Post: sorry for not quoting, read each and every comment, and due to running on SOLAR, my laptop has limited battery so thus i cannot (at this time validate whom said what when or how, i'm sure you all get my drift/point)
Well becuase the collectors just buy what they want from where they want when they want.They dont see the point in complaining as they buy so few minatures compared to gamers.
(Collectors dont buy 5 x SMtac boxed sets for example.But maybe just one character model)
This, and this is why I'm currently OK with Privateer Press's infantry models being so expensive and why I still feel Warmachine is a cheaper game. Sure, you could play smaller games of Warhammer, but ultimately, you don't get the real meat of the game game until about 1500 points.
Also, I did some math, and the models in my hypothetical 35 point, 36 model Warmachine army are, on average, less expensive than the models in my hypothetical 1500 point, 42 model Space Marine Army. ($11.61/model on average for Space Marines compared to $8.78/model on average for Cryx, and this is even using some very expensive Cryx infantry sets). This is largely due to the outrageous monetary price of Warhammer 40K vehicles compared to their relatively low point cost.
I'm not going to say that Privateer Press is the BEST value in tabletop gaming (it certainly is not), but it's still, IMO, better than GW for non-collectors. I know that I don't buy any models I don't intend to use in a game of some form, and neither does anyone I know. GW claims that a large number of their customers are collectors who do not play games, and so would just buy models to paint them and presumably display them, but I do wonder what percentage of their customers that applies to. Certainly, there are a lot of people who enjoy collecting and painting miniatures just for the pleasure of doing it, but are they really enough to keep GW's miniatures division going? And even if they are, if prices continue to increase every year, they will eventually reach a tipping point where they won't be a good value even for those collectors.
I assume GW has a plan for that, whether it's to keep prices steady at that point and see how things go, or pack up their miniatures division and simply print money by licensing their IPs to other companies.
Basically, GW is a decent value for collectors, but I'm not convinced that the "collector" is enough to keep GW afloat if it alienates too many non-collectors. Obviously this hasn't happened yet, but it will at some point if they continue to follow this pattern.
Just how big is this Force Generator? I don't know because I don't own one, but it better be bloody big if it's £60. It doesn't look like the size of a super heavy but then looks are pretty deceptive.
Some of the other stuff looks slightly cheaper, but nothing to get worked up about in my opinion. I know for a fact that the warjacks aren't as big as Dreadnoughts and I've also seen the models and they look slightly smaller. The rule books also cost exactly the same. £25 for either a codex or a warmachine army book.
I think it is a fairly safe assumption that the majority of people buying wargames get into it to play wargames. Sure there will be people who just collect individual figures, but they're not the majority or the norm.
To play 40k according to the rules as laid out in the rulebook (which again, I think is the way most people will play their games), you need 2 troops and 1 HQ, a codex, and the rulebook.
Sure, you can modify the rules to play only a single model against each other, but I really don't feel this is a valid argument: you can do anything you want with the rules, you can play with coke cans and slips of paper; but thats not really relevant to anything. Most people (especially the newbies who are turned away by high prices) don't know that Mordheim/Necromunda exist. Hell, I had a conversation the other day with someone who had been playing GW for 5 years and he didn't know what they were. The only sensible way to discuss the cost of playing a game is to play the game as it is intended, by the rules.
For most 40k armies, this means buying 2 boxes of troops, 1 HQ box/blister, a codex and the rulebook all separately. You can buy the battalion, which gives you maybe 500pts, and generally gives you one box for free.
For all PP armies, this means buying a starter box, and (perhaps) the main rulebook (starter sets come with a quick-rules set). There is no need to buy the army rule book, as each model comes with its own stat card.
However, 40k is not designed, intended or marketed to be played at the level of 1x2. You can see that in the modifications needed to make Combat Patrol work. A real game of 40k is designed to be played at around 1500+-500 points (you can see this by the examples given in rulebooks, by the white dwarf, and especially by tournaments). Most people don't attend tournaments; but the ones that will influence the defacto standard sized game in their clubs and stores because they want to get practice. Again, you *can* play other ways, but it is not the way most people play their games. To get a 40k army up to 1500 points requires significant investment, as each box set you buy represents somewhere between 100-200pts on average (with some individual models like Crisis Suits being ~50pts, and some deathstar terminator units being ~300). I'd say a conservative estimate is an additional 7 boxes of stuff to get up to 1500pts, and thats without expensive finecast elites or heroes.
Warmachine is not intended to be played at the level of their starter box either. But it gives you 20points, where tournament games are played at perhaps 50points. That war engine costs 10pts, fully one fifth of a largeish tournament army (and it gives poor points per dollar compared to most warmachine units). Most large warjacks cost between 8-11 points. You buy maybe 4 boxes to flesh out your starter kit into a tournament-sized army.
I don't think anyone is really claiming that PP is cheaper, per model. But ignoring that you need less models to play Warmachine than to play GW (according to the games' rules and the common standard army size) is deceitful.
gawd I got bored with green, red, black after "only" 3500pts
off 
