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Many people probably would not know there was a tabletop game version of the Hobbit, since GW don't bother advertising to anyone who is not already buying their stuff... and given that no one seemed to play LOTR even a couple of years after it was released, I can't see anyone other than the very keen buying any of the Hobbit stuff.

DemetriDominov wrote:Btw, what about Forge World? Are they independent from GW or just a branch of it? If so, I know their models tend to be more expensive, but I haven't seen a raise in prices in their models for years...

Forgeworld are a wholly owned subsidiary. They even have their offices in the same building as GW and use the same factory for manufacturing.

However, GW don't touch their marketing or pricing structure. FW haven't done a price rise because FW don't do price rises, outside of standard increases to cover VAT.

DemetriDominov wrote:At least the books don't seem to be getting any more expensive. Can't put a price on imagination.

Btw, what about Forge World? Are they independent from GW or just a branch of it? If so, I know their models tend to be more expensive, but I haven't seen a raise in prices in their models for years...

Asked on Facebook, they're reviewing their prices, like any years, people seem to think there's going to be a raise, I really hope not.

Aren't Forge World actually cheaper now in a number of cases? Someone pointed out the new SM MkIV Apothecary set, where you get 2 for £20, as opposed to the single (now quite dated) official GW SM Apothecary for £13.

I know for the countries which are 'ahead of the curve' in pricing (Australia) even common options, such as Land Raiders, are cheaper to export from ForgeWorld UK and have sent around the world!

As a part of GW, it wouldn't surprise me at all if FW were forced to raise their prices by the sales department, just to keep the differential in price between them and the official products. It's utterly mental that the official prices of GW are now approaching those of FW, especially considering that when the latter appeared all those years ago pretty much everyone used to joke about how mind-bendingly expensive they were despite there being some great models!

Pacific wrote:Aren't Forge World actually cheaper now in a number of cases? Someone pointed out the new SM MkIV Apothecary set, where you get 2 for £20, as opposed to the single (now quite dated) official GW SM Apothecary for £13.

As you said that depends on the products, there isn't a single Krieg product cheaper than its GW equivalent, at least in Canadian dollars.

-Loki- wrote:[However, GW don't touch their marketing or pricing structure. FW haven't done a price rise because FW don't do price rises, outside of standard increases to cover VAT.

Well that is excellent.

Motograter wrote:Why do people insist on mentioning the hobbit? It is not LOTR and it will not bring in a load of money for GW. It will bring some but it wont save them like LOTR did.

Since the Hobbit looks to essentially be another two Lord of the Rings movies, I wouldn't be so sure.

Motograter wrote:As for 6th no one knows anything about it and some don`t even care after the price rise hits will there really be any interest in GW anymore unless your a die hard.

GW raises prices every year and they've been doing fine thus far. This price rise, like the rest, will not kill GW.

Motograter wrote:Currently Privateer Press, Mantic, Infinity all wipe the floor with GW no maybe not in sales but in terms of the games and in some though not all the models are superior yet GW charge a "premium" as the models they produce are cast in gold apparently.

I think rules are a matter of preference. Generally, I very much like GW's 5th edition Warhammer 40k ruleset-- I think it's generally balanced, and while some elements are showing their age a little, the rapid growth in independent tournaments and events is a good sign that 5th edition has struck a chord with the community. Mantic's rules do nothing at all for me. There's a certain point where simplification goes too far, and Mantic IMO long since passed it. I don't have much experience with Infinity, though I'd like to-- it looks really cool. Lastly, while Privateer has certainly produced a "tight" ruleset, the general attitude of the rules doesn't match my tastes and the combo-centric gameplay really isn't for me.

As for prices, I'm not sure I see what you're seeing. GW games generally have larger numbers of models on the field, so it may cost more to assemble a force, but Warmachine and Infinity models are more expensive per-model compared to GW, and much less customizable to boot. Mantic models are cheaper but really suffer quality-wise, though they are improving on that front. Defiance Games has really cool, customizable, and inexpensive models, but they don't have a real ruleset at this time.

Overall, GW certainly has many competitors, but GW is also the elephant in the room for a reason. I don't anticipate them being cast down anytime soon.

If people are crazy enough to buy £25.50 Empire Greatswords (and they are), then GW has absolutely nothing to worry about.

I'm about as big a fan of Mantic as you can get, but this idea that GW is going to collapse or is doomed to fail is completely wrong... wealthy parents looking to buy the new "space mans mega-tank" for little Timmy so he'll stop whining for a few weeks are not going to care if it's $41 or $56.

The veterans market is worthless to GW, they are older players who have already spent thousands with GW, already have armies and don't spend as much as newcomers while also being more cynical and vocally critical about the company, and are harder to fool into paying high prices. If we leave, they don't really care, and their bottom line has never been dependant on us as a demographic, so it's really not going to hurt much to continue with their current strategy.

GW are excellent for recruiting new people into the broader wargaming hobby, something which their retail stores do an excellent job of.

They're not stupid, or incompetent, they are highly efficient at producing a high dividend yield for their shareholders, which is the primary concern of every publically-floated company on the planet.

I think a lot of people project their own personal irritation on to the company quite often, trying to justify their anger by saying how it's all going to end in tears and the company will go bankrupt, when the odds of that happening are very slim indeed.

Pacific wrote:Aren't Forge World actually cheaper now in a number of cases? Someone pointed out the new SM MkIV Apothecary set, where you get 2 for £20, as opposed to the single (now quite dated) official GW SM Apothecary for £13.

I know for the countries which are 'ahead of the curve' in pricing (Australia) even common options, such as Land Raiders, are cheaper to export from ForgeWorld UK and have sent around the world!

Yup. A good example is a Stone Crusher complete kit with 2 pairs of wrecker claws, which contains the complete Carnifex kit and the stone crusher options, which is cheaper for Australians than a Carnifex from a GW store by $13au. So that's a full Carnifex $13au cheaper than GW sells them, with an additional $45au worth of resin parts for free.

Then look at, say the Deimos pattern Predator Executioner (I'm using it as an example because I adore it). It's $8 cheaper than the GW Predator. The Mark IIB Land Raider is almost $10au cheaper than buying a Land Raider from GW, comes with a complete Land Raider kit, plus the IIB conversion kit.

Somethings definitely wrong with GW's official pricing, at least over here.

Fetterkey wrote:As for prices, I'm not sure I see what you're seeing. GW games generally have larger numbers of models on the field, so it may cost more to assemble a force, but Warmachine and Infinity models are more expensive per-model compared to GW, and much less customizable to boot.

I don't mind paying £6-7 for the average Infinity model when I only need 9 or 10 of them on the field to play a 300 point (one of the largest points levels commonly used) game... nor do I mind paying that price for models which, quite frankly, blow GW's models out of the water in terms of sculpt quality

They may not be as customisable as GW's models tend to be, but it is a different kind of game where you don't really need to customise them. Besides, it is cheap and easy enough just to buy another figure with the right wargear/etc

DemetriDominov wrote:At least the books don't seem to be getting any more expensive. Can't put a price on imagination.

If you're referring to Codices, then they're going up by 25% (in the UK) apparently.

If you're referring to Black Library, then no, thankfully they seem to be the same and can even be brought cheaply from places such as Amazon.

Regarding US prices, some of the Vindicators and Razorbacks have reached parity with FW full kits which means you get a little extra by buying FW instead of GW but not a lot. I've only spotted one item that is actually a better buy from FW.

SPACE MARINE WHIRLWIND $57.75
FW WHIRLWIND HYPERIOS COMPLETE KIT $45.24

SilverMK2 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:As for prices, I'm not sure I see what you're seeing. GW games generally have larger numbers of models on the field, so it may cost more to assemble a force, but Warmachine and Infinity models are more expensive per-model compared to GW, and much less customizable to boot.

I don't mind paying £6-7 for the average Infinity model when I only need 9 or 10 of them on the field to play a 300 point (one of the largest points levels commonly used) game... nor do I mind paying that price for models which, quite frankly, blow GW's models out of the water in terms of sculpt quality

They may not be as customisable as GW's models tend to be, but it is a different kind of game where you don't really need to customise them. Besides, it is cheap and easy enough just to buy another figure with the right wargear/etc

I like GW models for their customizability not because of in-game options, but because they really allow me to make a force my own in terms of visual appearance. For instance, my Marines use parts from the entire Space Marine line and have custom bits and equipment on them, so they look really distinct on the battlefield. Infinity models seem to be mostly single-pose and offer much fewer options for conversion. That's not necessarily bad, since it means they can get tons of detail in, but I do wish they were more easily modified.

The only GW purchases I will be making will be 2nd hand from Ebay. GW's prices are absurd to begin with, this price hike feels more like a shakedown!

I am 30, married with a 16 month old, I can afford GW's products even less now then when I was 15 years old with a part time Job! When I was 15 making $8.50 an hour I could afford to buy 3 paint pots or 1 blister pack containing 2 models. At todays current minimum wage you would have to work for at least 2 hours to be able to afford 1 finecast (garbage) model. GW minis just aren't in the budget when you pay for a mortgage, car leases and other assorted living costs. $18.50 for 1 finecast model, $70+ for a Landraider ? I have also heard rumor that the codexes will be all hardcover now, so again they will cost more. Are you kidding me ? I dont know who GW thinks their market is but they have just narrowly cut their sales, which I suppose will mean more price increases down the road to make up for the decrease in sales.

This hurts our local gaming stores. Before I didnt mind paying a bit more than the amazon price for models so that I could support my store where I play. Now the stores will probably loose money as people decide to make their purchase off of the internet just to make their $$$ go a little further.

I brought a friend to my local store to try and get him back into 40K, he scoffed at the prices... I had to agree with him. And theses are the prices before the increase to come!

GW has opened the door to 3rd party companies selling miniatures that people will use in place of their own. They have opened the door further to people straight up copying their products with a simple mold making and casting (its really not hard at all). If I have to spend $2000 on a 2000 point army OR spend $2000 on pro quality mold making equipment and casting equipment more people will make the decision to just start making molds.

If I hadn't been collecting GW mini's for 18+ years I would not be getting into the hobby now.

I think this is pretty sad. Why raise the entry barrier to a game with an already high entry barrier?

As far as a solution.... Maybe GW can give independent retailers a significant wholesale discount so that people can still afford to support their local store. I mean GW can't even keep their own stores in business, if they hurt their 3rd party retailers how does that help the game, or the company, or the community?

A move like this, I cant understand. The miniature range has never been better with so many armies and models to choose from, GW has had success entering into the video game market and with a whole new line of paints of superior quality would seem to be indications of success?! If profits are down year to year, how about consolidating your position as a company, maybe decrease the range, DONT spring on new paints, and make the existing range CHEAPER! Move more product, surely the more you sell the more you produce, the cheaper your cost. Bring back the old miniature range in metal and have it be a cast on need basis, I wouldnt mind waiting 5 weeks to know I can get something I want at a decent and FAIR price. Bring back 2000 point army boxes with a significant price break. Dont package your army boxes with useless or underused vehicals or models because people will not buy them and the people that do will be annoyed when they find out they got duped ("ah gotcha.... that vehical is total garbage, you need this one at $55+ per"). Bring back the troop & transport box for our local stores, from what I understand they couldn't keep them on the shelves. Re-release ALL your PDF articles of all things you can build yourself.. the bunkers the tanks the scenery.... AND keep them archived for everyone to use. I mean come on GW, most of them we can find on some russian website anyway with a little hunting why be a jerk about it. What you think if you give us a print out cardstock PDF bunk we won't spend $45 on your plastic kit, well you are probably right maybe the plastic kit should be $30 instead......THESE are the reasons we used to LOVE you GW.... Things just aren't the same anymore... Yes your models are more smoking hot then ever, they just are too costly.

Is this price increase caused by GW eating it on FineCast returns?
Or was the Australian pricing just a test to see if people would just pay more for the same product and due to the test being "successful" that pricing instituted to everyone?

I for one am more upset than angry, as I simply just cannot afford to purchase any more of GW's mini range. Its upsetting because this type of move is more and more evident in today's economy, you just get so much less for your $. My household pulls in $67k before taxes... we are by no means poor.... I guess we're just not rich enough to buy 40k miniatures.

~A very sad Lion~

Fetterkey wrote:I like GW models for their customizability not because of in-game options, but because they really allow me to make a force my own in terms of visual appearance. For instance, my Marines use parts from the entire Space Marine line and have custom bits and equipment on them, so they look really distinct on the battlefield. Infinity models seem to be mostly single-pose and offer much fewer options for conversion. That's not necessarily bad, since it means they can get tons of detail in, but I do wish they were more easily modified.

I entirely get what you mean - I'd love to have some truely unique looking Infinity models, however since I will only very rarely have repeating models in any force I play it significantly less of an issue than 40K where you have essentially a hundred or so identical models on the table at any one time

Even selling weapons packs would be a step in the right direction

GW flew into the jet wash of their up-and-coming competitors and has gone into a flat spin. Kirby is reaching for the ejection handle, but he's waiting it out 'cause he doesn't want to smack right into the canopy. Mark Wells is going to attempt to recover control, but he can't really get into the fight until GW gets over the past and tosses Kirby's dog tags into the ocean.

Well you squeezed that simile for everything it was worth Weeble!

weeble1000 wrote:GW flew into the jet wash of their up-and-coming competitors and has gone into a flat spin. Kirby is reaching for the ejection handle, but he's waiting it out 'cause he doesn't want to smack right into the canopy. Mark Wells is going to attempt to recover control, but he can't really get into the fight until GW gets over the past and tosses Kirby's dog tags into the ocean.

"Flight of the Intruder" or "Top Gun"? I forget which.

Barksdale wrote:
I just don't understand this pre-occupation with GW prices. The product is a luxery one, and people always want more than they can have or more than they can afford. How is this GW's fault? The answer is simple: it is not. I wil also note here that GW has one of the best customer service departments in ANY business, often replacing more than the original defective product.

I've never been a fan of this "luxury good" argument. Yes, hobby products are non-essential. However, being a non-essential good does not mean that comparative value ceases to be a concern of a discerning consumer. Does GW provide excellent quality products? Yes, principally with regard to its plastic injection molded kits. Are GW's injection molded plastic kits some of the best in the industry? Absolutely. Are they worth as much as GW chooses to charge for them? That question is more than fair, and any reasonable consumer will ask and answer that question. Compared to other products on the market, I believe GW's prices are bordering on unreasonably high. I can get more "bang for my buck" from the company's competitors, who unilaterally treat their customers with more respect and concern than Games Workshop (the customer service department not withstanding).

GW makes a transparent habit of regularly increasing prices with little or not respect to production cots or the economy with such consistency that it has become laughable.

Why is the Storm Raven kit 25% more expensive? Did GW re-engineer the mold? Did the cost of producing that kit suddenly rise by 25% in the last year? Is the economy trending down so badly year over year that GW must make up the deficit by driving the price of that kit higher? I couldn't care less as I have never purchased a Storm Raven kit, nor will I ever do so. But the price increase is arbitrary. It is the summer, GW is increasing its prices again. GW feels that its customers will not whine at a 25% increase in the cost of the kit. GW wants to push its revenue higher. End of story.

If you think the kit is worth 80 bucks, buy it. If not, don't. And if you felt that last year's price was fair, communicate that to Games Workshop. Just because you WANT a Storm Raven kit rather than NEEDING it does not mean that you cannot have a valid opinion about the value of the product.

scarletsquig wrote:If people are crazy enough to buy £25.50 Empire Greatswords (and they are), then GW has absolutely nothing to worry about.

Some people undoubtably are, but less and less of them buy each year. GW isn't going to implode in a spectacular fashion, they are going to die a slow lingering death. Little Timmy's parents may well dote on him but even they will baulk at buying a couple of grammes of plastic for £2.50 (if not substantially more). Pricing is the most obvious problem but their are others ranging from degrading fluff to poor rulesets.

Personally I would love to see GW move away from the profit first model that they have been using for years, not least because it is killing them. I would love to see GW emulate the successes of their mid 90's hayday but I doubt that I will see this happen. I won't be losing much sleep over it though, plenty more fish in the sea. I would bet good money that veteran gamers have considerably more spending power than little Timmy's parents.
v

Palindrome wrote:
Personally I would love to see GW move away from the profit first model that they have been using for years, not least because it is killing them. I would love to see GW emulate the successes of their mid 90's hayday but I doubt that I will see this happen. I won't be losing much sleep over it though, plenty more fish in the sea. I would bet good money that veteran gamers have considerably more spending power than little Timmy's parents.
v

You do realise that Ton Kirby has been at the helm of GW since 1986. Good times and bad times eh.

That doesn't mean that the 90's weren't GW's hayday.

Fetterkey wrote:The Hobbit and 40k 6th edition are right around the corner. Unless GW screws up massively, I think they're actually poised to surge dramatically ahead. Does anyone else remember how GW did back when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out? Right now, GW's debatably in a bit of a holding pattern, but they can afford to bide their time and wait until these big new games bolster their playerbase dramatically.

GW will see a major surge in revenue from the release of the Hobbit, but how long will that last? A year or maybe two?

I disagree that 6th edition will have the same effect that the Hobbit release will have. I'm not sure if people outside the hobby will jump in simply because a new edition is released. Most people outside of the wargaming circles are blissfully unaware that 6th edition is coming out, so how will they be pulled in by such a thing? If anything, raising prices right before an edition change might put some people off of picking up the new rulebook. I know I'll be waiting for the small paperback version that will likely come with the 6th edition starter set to come out and then pick one up on Ebay.

I -really- want to get back into 40k. But honestly this only makes me want to buy GW products for their paintline. And to finish my poor little Beastmen army. Because Price Hikes or not. I intend to finish what I start.

Even if it takes a long time. And I've a feeling no matter how far GW pushes they will get away with it.

*Looks at the LOTR range and sighs*

Chaos Legionnaire wrote:Ironically, the price hikes have a temporary effect of boosting sales. I have been in this hobby for many years now, and every time there has been a price hike, there has been a mad rush to buy GW products before the prices increase.
Obviously, I am not a fan of this tactic, but it always seems to be the case.

This is very true...and they almost got me with it. For a few weeks Ive been toying with the idea of getting LR and the CHapterhouse conversion. Thats $50 for the LR (ebay) and $25 for the conversion kit, so $75 all together. With the price hike that will move the price closer to $100. SO instead Ive decided to wait (since the LR will be at the end of the list of things for my army) and save up to buy the retro stlye LR from Forgeworld.

I don't think these price rises will hurt GW in the slightest, sure it will lose a few disgruntled customers, but nothing more.

After the HUGE backlash of last year, with much fist shaking and pelvic thrusts, the dust soon settled and things rapidly went back to how they were. Many of those "die hards" on here that wanted to Boycott GW or swore never to buy another GW product soon went to ground, and with the release of Necrons etc you would see those same names popping up to tell us how they couldn't wait to play the various armies.....

I think the one thing I took away from last years rises were, either you can afford to play or you can't. Theres no evil involved from GWs part, it's not like the Oil or power companies, where you need to buy their goods. With GW it's a choice you make, and then get on with it.

Maybe I'm more mellow, because I pulled away from GW and stayed away, maybe that has given me some more perspective on the issue...I don't know. Bottom line is, GW will continue to charge what the market is willing to bear, and for those people for whom WH40K, etc is their life, methinks the market can bear a lot more than it currently has to!

coyotius wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:GW flew into the jet wash of their up-and-coming competitors and has gone into a flat spin. Kirby is reaching for the ejection handle, but he's waiting it out 'cause he doesn't want to smack right into the canopy. Mark Wells is going to attempt to recover control, but he can't really get into the fight until GW gets over the past and tosses Kirby's dog tags into the ocean.

"Flight of the Intruder" or "Top Gun"? I forget which.

Top Gun

Delephont wrote:I don't think these price rises will hurt GW in the slightest, sure it will lose a few disgruntled customers, but nothing more.

After the HUGE backlash of last year, with much fist shaking and pelvic thrusts, the dust soon settled and things rapidly went back to how they were. Many of those "die hards" on here that wanted to Boycott GW or swore never to buy another GW product soon went to ground, and with the release of Necrons etc you would see those same names popping up to tell us how they couldn't wait to play the various armies

How do you explain GW's relatively flat revenues when their prices rise by 5-10% per annum? The most simple explanation is that people are simply not buying anymore, or are buying less. GW are arguably already charging more than the market can bear.

Delephont wrote:

I think the one thing I took away from last years rises were, either you can afford to play or you can't. Theres no evil involved from GWs part, it's not like the Oil or power companies, where you need to buy their goods. With GW it's a choice you make, and then get on with it.

I don't see GW as evil, nor can I not afford to play. I simply don't think that some of the new prices make sense, and I'm tired of GW's denial that anything is wrong with finecast. That is enough to push me toward other game companies. I still love the GW IP. I will still continue playing 40k and fantasy. I just will not be spending my hobby money elsewhere from here on out.

helium42 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:The Hobbit and 40k 6th edition are right around the corner. Unless GW screws up massively, I think they're actually poised to surge dramatically ahead. Does anyone else remember how GW did back when the Lord of the Rings movies were coming out? Right now, GW's debatably in a bit of a holding pattern, but they can afford to bide their time and wait until these big new games bolster their playerbase dramatically.

GW will see a major surge in revenue from the release of the Hobbit, but how long will that last? A year or maybe two?

I'd say 1-3 years, since The Hobbit is actually two movies. More importantly, though, it'll give them a second chance to get their Lord of the Rings line on its feet as an independent system.

helium42 wrote:I disagree that 6th edition will have the same effect that the Hobbit release will have. I'm not sure if people outside the hobby will jump in simply because a new edition is released. Most people outside of the wargaming circles are blissfully unaware that 6th edition is coming out, so how will they be pulled in by such a thing? If anything, raising prices right before an edition change might put some people off of picking up the new rulebook. I know I'll be waiting for the small paperback version that will likely come with the 6th edition starter set to come out and then pick one up on Ebay.

I don't think 6th Edition will bring new people in like The Hobbit likely will, but I do think it will reinvigorate a lot of existing players whose interest in 5th Edition is flagging.

Delephont wrote:
After the HUGE backlash of last year, with much fist shaking and pelvic thrusts, the dust soon settled and things rapidly went back to how they were. Many of those "die hards" on here that wanted to Boycott GW or swore never to buy another GW product soon went to ground, and with the release of Necrons etc you would see those same names popping up to tell us how they couldn't wait to play the various armies.....

There is a significant difference between still playing GW's games and buying their products. How many of those aforementioned poster's had existing Necron armies for example? I have not bought any GW products in about 18 months yet I have still played 40k in the intervening time and have still been "in the loop" as it were. I refuse to give GW any more of my hard earned cash until they get their head out of their arses but I'm still able to play their games, unless they wish to charge a fee for that now (not that I want to give them ideas).

EDIT: Heh, 1066 posts. Rather apt (if you know me IRL. )