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The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 14:56:43


Post by: terranarc


So if you've been watching BoW's 6th leaks, you might've caught the AP3 powersword comment Darrel made and that got me seriously thinking about the future of 2+.

What if all generic power weapons including fists and hammers become ap3? And the only CCWs that remain AP2 are weapons that roll 2d6 for armor pen. I can see GW doing this and heres why:
The only 2 units that really use and rely on 2+ armor saves are terminators and MANZ. If chainfists became the only way to get AP2 in close combat, it'd dramatically change the balance between tactical terminators and assault terminators. Right now everyone prefers TH/SS over your SB/PF option because of the exponentially higher survival rate in CC with storm shields but that would change as you'd be able to use your 2+ against most power weapons. In fact, this would give people a real reason to take chainfists other than just trying to slip a 2d6 armor pen in here and there.
This would be a dramatic buff to MANZ and tactical terminators while nerfing th/ss and being that GW has a habit of nerfing things people love to use and buffing things no one uses, I can easily see this happening.

Anyone else thinking this?

EDIT:
FAKE
So, current rumors put it as
Close Combat
*All Close Combat Weapons will have an AP value
* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

So my rant about possible AP3 power fists/THs is off. On the other hand, AP1 chainfists yo.

EDIT2:
That ended up being some comment on BoW, not a real rumor. So once again, we don't know the AP values of chainfist, DLC, powerfist, TH/SS, ect.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:08:22


Post by: Lightcavalier


The way I heard it was:
PW AP3
PF Ap2
CF AP1


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:24:32


Post by: Rogues Gambit


Lightcavalier wrote:The way I heard it was:
PW AP3
PF Ap2
CF AP1


that actually sounds really cool, i like it, it feels like it might add a little more complexity to 40k in terms of loadout options. Would this influence/remove the doubling of a characters strength in some way? (how you instantly get st10 on PF or something like that?) or would we not need that anymore and just run off ap values?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:28:08


Post by: Great White


I don't like really like the idea. For a while( Maybe since the beggining I didn't play then, so I don't know) PW have been able to ignore all armour. So why change it? We have all come to know it as ignore armour, that's why we take power weapons.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:37:16


Post by: Rogues Gambit


Great White wrote:I don't like really like the idea. For a while( Maybe since the beggining I didn't play then, so I don't know) PW have been able to ignore all armour. So why change it? We have all come to know it as ignore armour, that's why we take power weapons.


agreed, but doesn't the game feel like everyone and their pet dog has power weapons now? essentially making armor irrelevant and forcing invul saves?...or maybe i play against to many gk armys loool


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:43:01


Post by: hotsauceman1


Well, I hope chain fists still become a rarity.
Powerfists you see everywhere.
Same with power weapons.
But i see chinfist termi squads are going to be more popular.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:45:38


Post by: kronk


The more prevalent things the power weapon will affect at AP3 are terminators and Artificer Armor.

I'm not buying the AP1 CF, but it would make sense. That would give them S8 +2d6 against vehicles with +1 on the vehicle damage chart (AP1 modifier). I like it, but I don't believe it.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:46:43


Post by: juraigamer


Well it gives people a reason to use SM honor guard.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:56:37


Post by: Alpharius


kronk wrote:The more prevalent things the power weapon will affect at AP3 are terminators and Artificer Armor.



Did you mean AP2 there?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:58:55


Post by: Grey Templar


Indeed, it would make Honor Guard and Sangunary Guard and all the other units with just 2+ armor(with no Invuln) more viable.

I still don't believe this bit entirely.


Maybe they will go to a Str based AP system for power weapons. Like Str3 PWs are AP3, Str4 PWs are AP2, and Str5+ PWs are AP1(so PFs and CFs would be AP1 even on Guardsmen)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:59:02


Post by: htj


Hmm, this'd be terrible business for my DE army. It would leave pretty much just Disintegrators and Blasters / Dark Lances that could bring down Terminators. May not sound like a big deal, but for a close combat based army like mine, with a frequent opponent of mine fielding Death Wing equivalent... not great.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 15:59:56


Post by: kronk


Alpharius wrote:
kronk wrote:The more prevalent things the power weapon will affect at AP3 are terminators and Artificer Armor.



Did you mean AP2 there?


Right! I meant the PF at AP2. I was getting my points mixed up.

The Power Weapon will no longer affect Terminator's armor save at AP3, which is a pretty big deal (my second, but un-expressed concern) and the reason I don't think/hope this rumor is real. We'll see, though.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:03:15


Post by: Great White


It would make Banshees unable to kill termies.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:03:54


Post by: Grey Templar


We'll just have to see what their new codex does for them.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:04:42


Post by: Kirasu


I actually really like this possible change. In 2nd edition power weapons and power fists were dramatically different in terms of strength, armor save modifier and overall feel. A power axe was basically just a better chain axe



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:08:23


Post by: Testify


People are complaining about it breaking certain armies...it'd be the easiest thing to erreta codexes in order to make AP2 CCS available where needed.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:10:20


Post by: Grey Templar


Yeah, Banshees could be Errated to have AP2 on the turn they charge or something.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:12:28


Post by: KingDeath


It is an unnecessary spacemarine buff. Non marine armies tend to pay premiums for powerweapons and have very little access to powerfists. The suposed changes would make shooting the only viable way to deal with Terminators/ artificer armour. This in turn devalues the already overpriced non marine powerweapons ( Incubi, Banshees, possibly even Tyranid Warriors, depending on the faq ) even more.
AP values for close combat weapons are almost as bad. Marines are more or less save, not much will change for them. Orks and other thinly armoured cc units might lose their entire armoursave.
One could argue that losing a 5+ or a 6+ save isn't that much, but 33%/ 16% more casualties in cc for the affected units is a definitive and most unwelcome nerf.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:15:54


Post by: biccat


terranarc wrote:while nerfing th/ss

How would it nerf th/ss? It would make them even more difficult to kill.

Great White wrote:It would make Banshees unable to kill termies.

It would give most armies severe difficulties with terminators. It would, essentially, entrench the ss/th (or ss/PF) terminators as a must-have selection for SM.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:28:39


Post by: Grey Templar


Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:31:43


Post by: Quark


Testify wrote:People are complaining about it breaking certain armies...it'd be the easiest thing to erreta codexes in order to make AP2 CCS available where needed.


Now imagine the random pyskers with the AP3 power weapons rumors combined. You go from reroll wounds and 5++ saves to (oops, didn't get Doom!) no rerolls and 2+ saves. With a unit that typically dies easily even if it accomplishes the first goal. I know I can't make a full judgement until the actual release, but when most of the rumors have been a net loss for my army how much am I missing and how much needs to be changed in Errata?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:48:46


Post by: Wolfnid420


It would be cool to see termies go up in price and things like carnifexes getting ap based on strength. A FEx should be able to rip just about anything in half no problem!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:49:45


Post by: Bluewulf


I could see a str based ap for ccw personally


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:51:08


Post by: Kain


I sincerely hope that monstrous creatures become AP1 since they more or less function as if they had chainfists, nothing would frustrate me more than my Trygons suddenly being incapable of touching meganobz and terminators. Plus, being AP1 means that vehicles would become easier to crack.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 16:59:49


Post by: TH3FALL3N


Would love this! Means goddam Incubi would not be able to chew through my terminators


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:11:05


Post by: juraigamer


What if there was a rule that two handed power weapons were ap 2 instead of ap 3? That should help most armies.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:12:19


Post by: kronk


How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:13:20


Post by: Arschbombe


What about rending? Is that going to remain AP2?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:16:29


Post by: DarknessEternal


Kain wrote:I sincerely hope that monstrous creatures become AP1 since they more or less function as if they had chainfists, nothing would frustrate me more than my Trygons suddenly being incapable of touching meganobz and terminators. Plus, being AP1 means that vehicles would become easier to crack.

Chainfists make you Initiative 1.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:17:21


Post by: Grey Templar


Probably, no real reason not to.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:43:41


Post by: Kain


DarknessEternal wrote:
Kain wrote:I sincerely hope that monstrous creatures become AP1 since they more or less function as if they had chainfists, nothing would frustrate me more than my Trygons suddenly being incapable of touching meganobz and terminators. Plus, being AP1 means that vehicles would become easier to crack.

Chainfists make you Initiative 1.

I primarily meant the added penetration dice. That and MCs have been so repeatedly shafted by 5e that I just kind of hope they get tossed a bone in 6e. Even if it's as small as getting a +1 bonus to vehicle damage rolls.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:47:14


Post by: juraigamer


kronk wrote:How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?


Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar, though there are for DE, BA, SM and CSM.



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:54:29


Post by: Hlaine Larkin mk2


juraigamer wrote:
kronk wrote:How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?


Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar, though there are for DE, BA, SM and CSM.



Perhaps the wielder could choose to use it as a one-handed or two-handed weapon in CC (Like elven blades in LoTR)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 17:57:38


Post by: captain collius


Seriously this is a bad Idea it means prettymuch anything going against draigo wing or Deathwing is up a creek of feces with no paddle.

the only army that can have powerweapons evrywhere is gk if you wann fix the problem NERF THEM.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 18:16:22


Post by: triplare


Arschbombe wrote:What about rending? Is that going to remain AP2?


I suspect Rending will continue to remain "ignores armor" instead of having an AP assigned to the rule.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 18:28:29


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Well Necron Lords have finally become useful as a Retinue!

Hmm, about three, with weave, warscythes, and MSS count about 225, that'd be a painful thing for most elite units to fight.



I suspect Rending will continue to remain "ignores armor" instead of having an AP assigned to the rule.


It's AP2


Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar,


The two Handed Executioner for the Exarch Banshee are calling, along with striking scorpions biting blade.

I feel this is all silly till we see the rest of the assault rules though, something seen in a vacuum will never look to good.

And considering everyone uses banshee's as an example..They suck now! Why would they be a good example of xeno's getting nerfed?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 18:34:08


Post by: DarbNilbirts


Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar

May want to check again, the banshee exarch's executioner is a two handed power weapon. And the scorpions exarch's biting blade is 2 handed, though not a PW. If the act of being two handed would simply add 1 to the ap of a weapon, would achieve the desired effect for relic blades and the like, it could open up more options in some codexes. Don't ork have or used to have 2 handed choppas for nobs, don't have the codex but vaguely remember something like it?

edit: ninja'ed


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:26:04


Post by: Arschbombe


Random thought. The 40 points for Armored shell (2+ save) on a Hive Tyrant makes more sense in this scheme than it does now.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:26:39


Post by: Kingsley


Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.


TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison-- when you no longer have to worry about power weapons, exchanging your storm shield for a storm bolter and the opportunity to take Cyclone launchers or Assault Cannons may in fact be worth it, whereas now it's usually a risky move at best because normal Terminators are very vulnerable to assault units that can use power weapons to kill them before they get a chance to swing their power fists.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:35:02


Post by: loota boy


DarbNilbirts wrote:
Hmm just checked, an there's no 2 handed weapons for eldar

May want to check again, the banshee exarch's executioner is a two handed power weapon. And the scorpions exarch's biting blade is 2 handed, though not a PW. If the act of being two handed would simply add 1 to the ap of a weapon, would achieve the desired effect for relic blades and the like, it could open up more options in some codexes. Don't ork have or used to have 2 handed choppas for nobs, don't have the codex but vaguely remember something like it?

edit: ninja'ed


Yup, we get the big choppa, a 5 point upgrade that adds 2 points to strength. It isn't a powerweapon though, so you'd just get to ignore 6+ saves. That's sorta nice I guess.. But if I have to pay extra for it, i'm gunna be pissed.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:38:44


Post by: DarkCorsair


40 point Lychguard and Praetorians would make so much more sense.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:47:39


Post by: Lokas


Marines become more durable, every other army suffers for it.

Seems fair.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:50:16


Post by: Kirasu


More than just marines have 3+ armor saves.. It helps a large number of armies as most armies have a few 3+ units

There should have always been a distinction between the types of power attacks, like there is with shooting weapons. Imagine if all weapons we were either AP - or AP2, thats how it is with CC weapons


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:53:26


Post by: Nalathani


I don't understand the folks who say that it makes marines more powerful, and nerfs everyone else. From a Tyranid standpoint, i say go for it!

We don't have "power" weapons, we have weapons that ignore armor. Boneswords ignore armor, Rending is AP 2 (still goes through terminators just as easy as before), and monstrous creatures ignore armor. Of course, the other Xenos way to make terminators die is to make them roll lots, and lots of saves (devilgants out of a pod anyone? 20 toxin/adrenal hormies?). Don't get your panties in a bundle, terminators can still die, just alter your tactics a bit.

Read your Necron codex if you have one. Warscythes "don't allow armor saves", but voidblades, if I'm not mistaken, count as power weapons. GW is making a distinction between what is a power weapon, and what ignores armor in a new codex...I'm guessing there's a reason for this.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:56:14


Post by: loota boy


Power weapons? What are those? I play orks. Long live the power klaw!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 20:58:48


Post by: ZebioLizard2


DarkCorsair wrote:40 point Lychguard and Praetorians would make so much more sense.


Those are 3+ armor saves, have fun with that.

As I said before though, Necron Lords with weave become far more useful in squads and as a retinue for a walker overlord. Three with MSS/scythe/weave with an overlord will put the hurt out on most elite units now.

Marines become more durable, every other army suffers for it.

Seems fair.


Because only marines have 2+! Nobody else has power fists! Nobody else has ap2 ranged weapons! *Sarcasm*

Hell nobody knows what the AP value for xeno's specific weapons will become. (Eviscerators better be counted as AP1 too damnit)

Random thought. The 40 points for Armored shell (2+ save) on a Hive Tyrant makes more sense in this scheme than it does now.


Nope, still crappy, overlords get it for 15 points, lords 20.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:01:06


Post by: Macok


Kirasu wrote:More than just marines have 3+ armor saves.. It helps a large number of armies as most armies have a few 3+ units

There should have always been a distinction between the types of power attacks, like there is with shooting weapons. Imagine if all weapons we were either AP - or AP2, thats how it is with CC weapons

But the power weapon change does nothing to 3+ armour saves. It does however a lot to 2+ saves which is most prevalent in SM's books. There is almost no used HQ without 2+. Terminator units are not uncommon sight in current edition.
How many xenos have such abundance of 2+ saves? If power fists will be AP2 and chainfists AP1, how many xenos have 2+ saves, power fists and chainfists? How many have two of those things? Orks can have them but otherwise it's a rare sight in non-SMs.

Also, buffing a unit slightly less than a similar unit is DEFINITELY not nerfing. Don't be ridiculous.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:01:38


Post by: Lokas


This doesn't benefit the 3+ saves, since basic power weapons are AP 3 in this ruleset and ignore it anyways. This benefits armies who can field lots of 2+ armor, because suddenly it's only power fists and chain fists and the like that they need to worry about penetrating their armor.

This benefits marines over other armies for two very big reasons. One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies. Especially the likes of Grey Knights and Dark Angels. Other armies cannot field it in the same numbers, and/or pay a high premium for such protection. Two; Who has the ability to pack a power fist in every single squad if they so choose? That'd be the space marine armies again. The orks are the only notable exception to this, but considering that you're still only fielding 3-4 mobs of boyz with one power fist each, and then maybe a couple more power fists scattered throughout your army, you're not fielding them in the same number as a marine player who has them on every tac squad.

So 2+ armor becomes infinitely better, which the marines get the most of, and is only counterable by weapons that only marines can get their hands on in suitable numbers.

This does not benefit any army other than marines. Plain and simple. It might be a minor blessing for armies who have rare units with a 2+ save, but it is an incredibly incredibly potent buff for armies that do not need to be buffed.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:05:49


Post by: ZebioLizard2



So 2+ armor becomes infinitely better, which the marines get the most of, and is only counterable by weapons that only marines can get their hands on in suitable numbers.


Gee I wonder when AP2 ranged weapons went out of style.

The orks are the only notable exception to this, but considering that you're still only fielding 3-4 mobs of boyz with one power fist each, and then maybe a couple more power fists scattered throughout your army,


As an ork player, what? We pack them on nobz, on bosses, on big meks, on every single nob upgrade in the army!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:08:38


Post by: juraigamer


Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.


Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:08:58


Post by: TH3FALL3N


kronk wrote:How would that help most armies? How many 2-handed power weapons are out there besides Daemon weapons and relic blades?


Warscythes, and them things are filfth


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:12:40


Post by: loota boy


juraigamer wrote:
Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.


Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.


Never mind that it costs over 2500 points of course..


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:13:21


Post by: Jackal


If this is the case then my crushers just lost all hope of killing termies -_-
Daemons struggle with AV14 as it is, now we have to compete with 2+ saves we cant negate?
This i am not liking


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:14:44


Post by: G00fySmiley


juraigamer wrote:
Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.


Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.


48 mega nobs = 1920 points thats without the warbosses or the battlewagons



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:15:07


Post by: ZebioLizard2



Daemons struggle with AV14 as it is, now we have to compete with 2+ saves we cant negate?


Rending is AP2. You have plenty of units that have that (Take fiends, seekers), along with MC's, not to mention armor negating flamers, oh and bolt of change, since one shot will equal it's points back against 2+ at their cost


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:16:03


Post by: Lokas


ZebioLizard2 wrote:Gee I wonder when AP2 ranged weapons went out of style.


Awww, aren't you cute. Trying to bring an irrelevant point into this topic!

Yeah, AP 2 shooting still exists.

But one of the few threats to 2+armor up and vanishes.

How is this not a buff? I mean. Can you please explain to me how taking away one of maybe... three ways (I can think of at least off the top of my head, AP 2 or better ranged weapons, power weapons, dangerous terrain) to deny a 2+ save isn't a buff to the 2+ save?

I mean it seems pretty clear to me. Like. Basic logic.

As an ork player, what? We pack them on nobz, on bosses, on big meks, on every single nob upgrade in the army!


Right, yeah. So if you're doing green tide, and let's say you're just going fething balls out. Take 6 full mobs of boyz. That's... 6 power klawz.

One more for your HQ choice.

Woo.

Hurray.

Six.

You can get that many power fists in a single unit of shooty terminators.

Then three more in tactical squads.

Then throw one on a captain because we're not taking a librarian for some reason.

Then... I dunno. Vanguard vet squad of nothing but power fists. Why not?

Throw some on our devastators too.

And our bike squads.

And... The list goes on, you see. Now, yes, I am being hyperbolic and silly, but you were making... a silly point to begin with. I very clearly said that Orkz can take power fists, just not in the same quantity as marines.

So you... agreed with me? Or... did you disagree?

I'm honestly not sure what you're trying to accomplish here.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:18:14


Post by: Jackal


Rending: Nice, but the units with it are very fragile, which is why i leave my khornate units to armour hunting.

MC's are nice, but cant zilla a list while keeping it to a reasonable standard.

Bolt is nice though however, i'll give you that one.


Just seems to turn daemons on thier heads for unit choices.
My horde killers (nettes and seekers) will now become my armour hunters too?
Not a nice thought when a stiff breeze kills them.


Also, i usually run a pure khorne army, so this may be a real issue now.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:22:13


Post by: Luke_Prowler


juraigamer wrote:
Lokas wrote:One; marines can field more 2+ armor than most other armies.


Not true. Orks can make Meganobs troops, and then take 3 elites worth of them. Imagine an ork player with 5 battlewagons full of meganobs. That's 48 mega nobs plus to warbosses in mega armor.

Well for one thing, that list would run you about 2410 points before upgrades.

Second, normal power weapons never bugged meganobs because they had two wounds anyway. The thing that hurts them the most, powerfists, are still AP 2


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:22:24


Post by: biccat


Fetterkey wrote:TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison

Nerfing troops by keeping them the same but making other stuff better...

Must be nice to be a marine


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:25:21


Post by: Lokas


biccat wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison

Nerfing troops by keeping them the same but making other stuff better...

Must be nice to be a marine


Cannot exalt this enough.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:25:26


Post by: Jackal


Might just switch to a mono tzeentch army now
Make the most of the better ++ saves and just blast armies apart.
Mass bolt and breath should be ok.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:29:47


Post by: ZebioLizard2



But one of the few threats to 2+armor up and vanishes.


Yes pretty much, but I prefer not to look at things in a vacuum (Hard to do, without the rest of the changes), and see how much else people can pack into their lists, I also judge lists by how much AP 1/2 they can pack into a standard competitive list.



Right, yeah. So if you're doing green tide, and let's say you're just going fething balls out. Take 6 full mobs of boyz. That's... 6 power klawz.


And if you take two sets of 3 nobz with 3 PK's along with 2 big meks with KFF, you get 14 since your past the 1500 mark and hitting 2000

Course this isn't exactly a list I would use to pack in alot of fists to be honest. Green tide is more about numbers of shots along with a ton of rokkits added in by KFF making everything have a save, so they'll still rely mostly on tons of A2 shoota's making 2+ saves fail by number alone still.

Sure you can pack a ton more into a marine list, to me it just means I can finally have people stop questioning my use of a Shokk Attack Gun when I use it if people start taking TEQ heavy lists


So you... agreed with me? Or... did you disagree?


I agreed that space marines can pack more fists, technically, course it doesn't make them better as a result for it.



Also, i usually run a pure khorne army, so this may be a real issue now.


Yeah I know that feeling, I used to run CD lists too, but it's not like they havn't been terribly effective before, (4th wasn't kind with its auto death deepstrikes, 5th's mech, and 6th's potential to ruin hellblades and all that..) It's just a pretty poorly done codex.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:32:18


Post by: Jackal


Just a quick note, but while marines can take more fists, orks are multi-wound and have more attacks with them, which i would value higher




Havent had a real issue with my khorne daemons unless i get quaked to death, other than that i dont have all that many issues.
However, i use crushers to deal with termies and the likes (mainly paladins now)
This is a real kick in the teeth.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:34:51


Post by: biccat


Jackal wrote:Might just switch to a mono tzeentch army now
Make the most of the better ++ saves and just blast armies apart.
Mass bolt and breath should be ok.

Buff troops by making everything else in the army worse?

Must suck to be chaos.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:35:40


Post by: ash1986


Placing AP on certain combat weapons would really shake up the dynamics of the assault phase but also would make it more complex for the new kids to learn (which is their target market). I think GW would be silly to change.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:42:34


Post by: Lokas


So you agree that 2+ saves become more durable by eliminating one of the ways of negating them, and you agree that MEQ armies will have (if this ruleset goes through) the most of the only weapons that can deny that 2+ save in close combat.

Which is, very clearly a buff to MEQ armies. Probably the armies who least need a buff. Save for CSM, who are suffering from codex creep at the moment and Black Templars to a lesser extent.

What are we disagreeing about then? Only point I was making was that this is a major buff for marine armies, a minor buff for some other armies and a major nerf for the others who do not have access to power fists or their equivalents.

I sincerely hope this change does not come to fruition as described. I'm okay with weapons getting an AP value, but the way it is outlined here? Absolutely ridiculous and dangerously unbalancing. I'm not normally the type to cry out in alarm over a proposed game change because it's usually not as bad as it seems... This, on the other hand, is just a horrendous tweak to game balance.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:47:28


Post by: ZebioLizard2



What are we disagreeing about then? Only point I was making was that this is a major buff for marine armies, a minor buff for some other armies and a major nerf for the others who do not have access to power fists or their equivalents.

I'm really just saying this is not as big a deal as people are making this out to be, at least IMO. Till we see all the combined actual rule changes from 6th (yeah yeah, speculation and all that) .

The point I was trying to make was that the armies with the least amount of power fists, never really needed it, not all armies exist to have the same variety of weapons and having the same loadouts as each other (barring marines anyways)

I mean, can you tell me what armies will be hit hardest by this change?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:48:01


Post by: KingDeath


ash1986 wrote:Placing AP on certain combat weapons would really shake up the dynamics of the assault phase but also would make it more complex for the new kids to learn (which is their target market). I think GW would be silly to change.


It also screws over non meq armies who would often lose their already bad armour save ( a 1/2, 1/3 or 1/6 chance is better than no save at all ).


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:54:44


Post by: Kingsley


Lokas wrote:I sincerely hope this change does not come to fruition as described. I'm okay with weapons getting an AP value, but the way it is outlined here? Absolutely ridiculous and dangerously unbalancing. I'm not normally the type to cry out in alarm over a proposed game change because it's usually not as bad as it seems... This, on the other hand, is just a horrendous tweak to game balance.


This strikes me as crying wolf, to be honest. How many units with basic power weapons are even relevant to the game? The only power weapon unit that I'd describe as generally competitive is Death Cult Assassins, who are well-known to be broken. Incubi, maybe? If I recall correctly, they have two-handed power weapons, which are rumored to be AP 2. It's not like Howling Banshees are any good at all, what with the whole t3 5+ no delivery mechanism issue...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:55:31


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Meganobz and both kinds of Terminators would become crazy-good against Draigowing. The Paladins would no longer ignore armour, after all.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:58:11


Post by: Lokas


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I'm really just saying this is not as big a deal as people are making this out to be, at least IMO. Till we see all the combined actual rule changes from 6th (yeah yeah, speculation and all that) .

The point I was trying to make was that the armies with the least amount of power fists, never really needed it, not all armies exist to have the same variety of weapons and having the same loadouts as each other (barring marines anyways)

I mean, can you tell me what armies will be hit hardest by this change?


I want to say Dark Eldar, and that may be because I am a Dark Eldar player but lemme elaborate.

We already have plenty of AP 2 ranged weapons. Hell, I was fiddling around earlier with a 1500 point tourney list and managed to pack 24 blasters/lances into the list. It was a little silly. This would not change. However, not all DE armies are shooty. Wych cults, Haemonculus covens, Webway Portal lists... All of these would be hit very hard by this change.

Not a single unit in our army has access to a power fist or its equivalent, which at the moment is fine because we have power weapons to deal with TEQ in close combat. We have agonisers we have klaives, we can handle terminators in the assault phase. If the change, as proposed in this thread, goes through, that will no longer happen. Agonisers will be AP 3 as they are only power weapons. So will Klaives. Dark Eldar are not orks, we do not have weight of attacks to drown terminators in saves in close combat. The only access we would have to AP 2 close combat weapons would be razorwing flocks. It would basically relegate the Dark Eldar army to 'you have to be a shooty army, or you're going to lose against 5 man terminator squads all the time every time.'

In other words, this single change would kill every build that isn't venomspam for Dark Eldar. For once, I'm not exaggerating for effect or delving in hyperbole, I'm being quite literal. TEQ armies would become more prevalent due to this change, although I wouldn't say that every army is going to be TEQ, no. However, an army stops being competitive when there are builds out there that it cannot handle. If there is a hard counter to your army list, you don't wanna bring it to a tournament because one player with that army list is going to instant-win. Any army that isn't a darklight storm, that is assault-oriented for the DE will now have a hard counter to it. They will be unable to deal with armies that pack multiple squads of terminators or similar 2+ save models.

So yeah, it'd hit my army pretty freaking hard. Now, maybe there are other armies out there it'd hit harder, but I can't imagine how it gets worse than relegating your entire army to a single list archetype.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 21:58:36


Post by: Jackal


This strikes me as crying wolf, to be honest. How many units with basic power weapons are even relevant to the game? The only power weapon unit that I'd describe as generally competitive is Death Cult Assassins, who are well-known to be broken. Incubi, maybe? If I recall correctly, they have two-handed power weapons, which are rumored to be AP 2. It's not like Howling Banshees are any good at all, what with the whole t3 5+ no delivery mechanism issue...


Bloodcrushers and letters.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:04:30


Post by: Lokas


Jackal wrote:
This strikes me as crying wolf, to be honest. How many units with basic power weapons are even relevant to the game? The only power weapon unit that I'd describe as generally competitive is Death Cult Assassins, who are well-known to be broken. Incubi, maybe? If I recall correctly, they have two-handed power weapons, which are rumored to be AP 2. It's not like Howling Banshees are any good at all, what with the whole t3 5+ no delivery mechanism issue...


Bloodcrushers and letters.


Agonisers, lightning claws, warscythes (depending on whether or not two handed weapons are AP 2), the phase swords on sword n' board lychguard...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:05:43


Post by: Jefffar


Okay, just trying to get this sorted out in my mind.

1 Handed Power Weapons: AP 3
Power Fists (and maybe 2 handed power weapons and Rending): AP 2
Chain Fists (and maybe Monstrous creatures and other things that roll 2D6 for penetration): AP 1

Interesting.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:09:45


Post by: Kingsley


This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:16:18


Post by: Lokas


The way I'd much rather see this working is have each individual weapon given a profile like a ranged weapon, complete with an AP value and any special rules such as lightning claw rerolls.

It would streamline rules a bit more than trying to remember which broad type of weapon has what AP values and which of those categories any given weapon fits into, since you could simply consult the profile like you would a ranged weapon. Plus then the AP value system would be universal for shooting and assaulting, making rules a bit simpler there as well.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:18:09


Post by: Lightcavalier


The big issue is that it makes anything with a 2+ save just that much better while simultaneously damaging the units currently designed to take out 2+ saves. But then again we wont know until its published.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:21:11


Post by: Kingsley


Lightcavalier wrote:The big issue is that it makes anything with a 2+ save just that much better while simultaneously damaging the units currently designed to take out 2+ saves. But then again we wont know until its published.


That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:34:04


Post by: Macok


Fetterkey wrote:That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Because nobody ever takes 2+ save on SM HQs.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:43:24


Post by: Lokas


Or takes assault terminators.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:43:32


Post by: triplare


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I suspect Rending will continue to remain "ignores armor" instead of having an AP assigned to the rule.


It's AP2


Why do you say that?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 22:45:25


Post by: Kingsley


Macok wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Because nobody ever takes 2+ save on SM HQs.


Uh... you're right, they don't.

Captains are generally considered bad except in bike armies and generally don't get artificer armor when they do get taken, and people only take Terminator Armor on Librarians for the 3++ storm shield option-- even then, the standard "naked" Librarian is more common in competitive SM armies. Terminator Captains and Chaplains are almost objectively bad. Do you play SM?

Of the units with base 2+ saves (Honor Guard, "Tactical" Terminators, Assault Terminators), the only one that gets fielded in competitive armies is Assault Terminators (and almost universally TH/SS Terminators), who have a 3++ to mitigate their weakness to power weapons.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 23:45:05


Post by: loota boy


Fetterkey wrote:This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1


That... That sounds awful... Why even have a 6+ save? Why would claws and teeth be able to chew through armor better than lasguns, which are supposed to be better then modern firearms? Why do we need to buff CC? I love CC, don't get me wrong, but this edition already has plenty of CC, and guess what, it seems like it's doing fine on its own. I really, really hope this won't happen..


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/04 23:59:16


Post by: Blacksails


I have an idea!

Lets get all worked up over a rule set we havent even seen yet!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 00:03:36


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Lokas wrote:Or takes assault terminators.


Nobody takes assault terminators for 2+, it's the 3++


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 00:20:48


Post by: tuebor


I remember before 4th came out and the Internet declared that CC armies were doomed because you couldn't assault out of Rhinos or Wave Serpents anymore and how they were doomed for real before 5th because you couldn't consolidate into a new combat anymore. We know even less about 6th than we did 4th and 5th before they came out, I'd say it's safe to say we have nothing like a clear picture yet. Personally, I'll worry about the new rules when I actually see them rather than being all Chicken Little over a handful of vague half rumors that may or may not be true.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 00:41:35


Post by: BlackRaven1987!!


I honestly think that the giveing ap values to cc waepons is a good idea makeing the assault phase more elagant and more interesting. I think it will change everything and with that being said I think we all need to keep in mind that we may not be seeing the big picture there may be all sorts of little rules here that could help armies that dont have access to alot of AP2 power weapons whon knows since eldar are supe advanced and since rumore has it we will be able to use pistols in CC some of your pistols may end up being AP2 in CC, can't truly make a judgement on this yet, but I do think GW is going in the right direction if they give it all AP values.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 01:13:13


Post by: DogOfWar


Fetterkey wrote:This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1
I wouldn't mind this except for the basic combat weapons being AP6. As loota boy said, if a vest can stop a lasgun 1/6 of the time, it should be able to stop a claw or knife.

Rest looks reasonable though. I'd play with it and see how it goes.

DoW


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 01:32:36


Post by: King Pariah


DogOfWar wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:This is the version I've seen (and, grain of salt):

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1
I wouldn't mind this except for the basic combat weapons being AP6. As loota boy said, if a vest can stop a lasgun 1/6 of the time, it should be able to stop a claw or knife.

Rest looks reasonable though. I'd play with it and see how it goes.

DoW


Thunderhammers I think would make more sense as an AP2 weapon, I just don't see it as a dedicated tank popping weapon. But that just may be me.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 02:21:31


Post by: biccat


Blacksails wrote:I have an idea!

Lets get all worked up over a rule set we havent even seen yet!

Brilliant!

Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

Translation: Orks & SM pwn lightly armored troops.

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Translation: feth you Eldar.

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Translation: make Terminators better

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2
Translation: Only MEQ can kill terminators

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1

Translation: Finally a reason to take chainfists! Time to buy more terminators everyone!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 02:24:50


Post by: Luke_Prowler


biccat wrote:
Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 02:25:04


Post by: sfshilo


Great White wrote:I don't like really like the idea. For a while( Maybe since the beggining I didn't play then, so I don't know) PW have been able to ignore all armor. So why change it? We have all come to know it as ignore armour, that's why we take power weapons.


Because it makes rending stupidly mediocre. Everyone an their brother have power weapons now, for what, 10 points? That tiny little sword on the commish? Yeah it ignores a MC's armor save....whaaaaa? Honestly AP 3 would be great as long as chaos gets their 2+ armor back. (But Chaos sucking is another matter altogether...)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 02:32:38


Post by: Kingsley


There are a few things on the list that I don't really agree with either. I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...), and I agree with the earlier comments about 6+ saves. That said, we'll have to wait and see what happens.

Overall, though, I do like the idea of putting the AP system into close combat as well as shooting, as well as giving 2+ save units a much needed buff. So color me optimistic on this one.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 02:36:33


Post by: Ulthanashville


Well I'm happy since the Phoenix Lords and Drazhar just became viable again.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 03:51:18


Post by: Lobokai


If this happens, how remarkable that the 5e starter had tactical Termies, and I'll bet the 6e set won't.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 03:54:38


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...


Where do you see a DCCW as one?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 04:09:24


Post by: spaceXjam


here is how it is going to work:

[i]Power Swords AP3
Power Axe AP3
Power anything that you give to your seargents AP3


Power firsts AP2
Lightning Claws AP2
Thunder Hammers AP2

Chain Fists AP1


With these rules:

AP3 strike at normally Initiative
AP2 Strike at initiative 1
AP1 Strike at initiative 1

AP3 Power Weapons will be given strength 8 (which means it will still be instant kill unless against monstrous creatures or T5 Units)
AP2 Power Weapons will be given strength 10
AP1 Power Weapons will be given strength 10

AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

16th of June 6th Edition of 40k will be out


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 04:09:30


Post by: TedNugent


This would actually benefit Orks tremendously. Orks use Power Fists almost exclusively, there literally is not a dedicated Power Weapon in the entire Codex. Assuming you still need AP2 to defeat Feel No Pain, that means Nobs gain some tremendous survivability and Meganobz may become viable.

All for no loss in offensive power.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 04:54:51


Post by: DarbNilbirts


Why even have a 6+ save? Why would claws and teeth be able to chew through armor better than lasguns

I see this as the same reasoning why you hit rear armor in close combat. They don't run around and smack the back, the are close enough to see weak points/armor seams/ viewpoints and hatches and aim for them. Up close and personal it would be common sense to swing at the parts of the body not covered by the one shoulder plate or helmet that is required for a 6+ while at range you are just trying to hit dot in the distance.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 05:05:32


Post by: terranarc


spaceXjam wrote:
AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.


Sauce please but regardless, that sounds highly unlikely.

Personally I liked the 5++ for power swords.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 05:57:49


Post by: King Pariah


spaceXjam wrote:here is how it is going to work:

[i]Power Swords AP3
Power Axe AP3
Power anything that you give to your seargents AP3


Power firsts AP2
Lightning Claws AP2
Thunder Hammers AP2

Chain Fists AP1


With these rules:

AP3 strike at normally Initiative
AP2 Strike at initiative 1
AP1 Strike at initiative 1

AP3 Power Weapons will be given strength 8 (which means it will still be instant kill unless against monstrous creatures or T5 Units)
AP2 Power Weapons will be given strength 10
AP1 Power Weapons will be given strength 10

AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

16th of June 6th Edition of 40k will be out


Lightning claws striking I1 and S10? Doubtful to the utmost.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 07:18:40


Post by: Kingsley


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...


Where do you see a DCCW as one?



Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 08:09:10


Post by: azazel the cat


spaceXjam wrote:here is how it is going to work:

[i]Power Swords AP3
Power Axe AP3
Power anything that you give to your seargents AP3


Power firsts AP2
Lightning Claws AP2
Thunder Hammers AP2

Chain Fists AP1


With these rules:

AP3 strike at normally Initiative
AP2 Strike at initiative 1
AP1 Strike at initiative 1

AP3 Power Weapons will be given strength 8 (which means it will still be instant kill unless against monstrous creatures or T5 Units)
AP2 Power Weapons will be given strength 10
AP1 Power Weapons will be given strength 10

AP3 Weapons will be given TWO attacks as default.

16th of June 6th Edition of 40k will be out

So then nobody will ever take a PF again? Because according to you, Lightning Claws do everything that a PF can, AND get to re-roll misses.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 08:33:03


Post by: Exalted Pariah


So maybe then LC will be Ap3? I said it in the other thread but this one stole the thunder. Look at the necron codex, its written for 6th. Why does the warscythe say "no armor saves allowed" instead of "ignores armor"? Why does Mr "im the greatest necron fighter" not have anything other than a 2+ for 165 pts? Why are invuls so incredibly expensive and only two necron characters come with them? I think this all point toward CC have AP


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 09:50:17


Post by: mwnciboo


So an AP3 PW? I find that interesting, but how would that work with a RELIC BLADE? Or will these be dropped? Will a RB be AP2 or AP1? It confers extra strength at the moment, but it's a bit crazy as it will become broken if we take that 6th Ed will institute what the OP said (a leap of faith I know!).

EDIT - IMHO Close Combat will be much more vicious, the days of Tarpitting a unit with a Tactical squad for 2-3 turns will be gone, and the reason I say this is because of the Defensive fire rumours I have heard. If you charge a Marine Tac Squad, they will make you pay before you hit them (although I have heard it's BS 2 so hitting on 6's, that said with 10 Bolters you are looking at least 1 model hit on the way in and more if you are lucky with your rolling). So to balance this shooting edge, I think combat will be upped a bit. Grey Hunters will no doubt, still be the best Troops in the game after 6th edition!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 09:54:21


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Fetterkey wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...


Where do you see a DCCW as one?



Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Chainswords, choppas: AP 5

'Uge choppas, Khornate chainaxes: AP 4

Power weapons, lightning claws: AP 3

Power fists/klaws, force weapons (maybe only when used by an IC?), two-handed power weapons (klaives, warscythes, relic blades, etc.): AP 2

Thunder hammers, chainfists, Dreadnought close combat weapons: AP 1


That's not the rumor he was guessing!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 10:00:51


Post by: mwnciboo


ZebioLizard2 wrote:I think making Dreadnought close combat weapons AP 1 might be over the top, especially given that that would make seismic hammers +2 on the vehicle damage table (so they would kill an open-topped vehicle on a 2+? uh, okay...


I must say that's not unreasonable, an Ironclad with a Siesmic Hammer would rip apart an Open Top vehicle. I mean seriously, this is a dedicated siege engine and assault breacher going up against a "Convertable". It would be obliterated! The Iron clad would just leap on it, Hulk style and crush it. Or slam it like a Lineback hitting a quarterback either way the vehicle has a slim chance of surviving.

OT I would love to see a Slam Charge from a Dreadnought, it should be able to shoulder barge and body slam, units. Peoples elbow from a Contemptor anyone?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 10:44:23


Post by: htj


As to the credibility of spaceXjam's post:

spaceXjam wrote:i have just reosrted to stealing alot of my stuff from gamesworkshop stores i stole a whole battleforce. i brought one and had the recipet then had my friend walk past the front door gave it to him and then i picked another one of the shelf quickly and just walked out if they had asked me i had my recipet.. but i talked to the guys working for like 20 mins to sell myself as a genuine dude... yeah lol stolen heaps of blisters to i have like 5 lord creeds and kells i sold them on ebay for 99 cents haha


Sounds like the kinda guy who'd be deep into the GW design department. Seems legit.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 11:05:09


Post by: -Loki-


Luke_Prowler wrote:
biccat wrote:
Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW


Not to mention Claws and Teeth is the Tyranid basic CCW.

Makes me wonder if Scything Talons will go AP5.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 12:50:46


Post by: English Assassin


I'd be delighted to see close assault weapons given an AP value; of course I'd rather see this AP nonsense thrown out and save modifiers returned to the rules. It's worth pointing out that Terminators without storm shields are a bit rubbish right now, thanks to the prevalence of plasma and power weapons; I'd be perfectly happy to accept a steep rise in cost for AV2 units if it brought their battlefield effectiveness closer to that attributed to them in the fluff.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 13:13:18


Post by: mwnciboo


Yup, 250 points for high Damage, highly survivable termie unit would not be too bad. Although it might stop "LR + Termie" kerb stomping when the hold shebang comes in at 500pts without upgrades!!!

But yeah, Termies without SS are Cannon fodder.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 13:23:25


Post by: Cheex


I really like the idea of this move towards proper weapon statlines for close combat weapons. It really opens up some great possibilities for variation between them, IMHO.

Can't wait for this time next month.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 13:30:23


Post by: ZebioLizard2




I must say that's not unreasonable, an Ironclad with a Siesmic Hammer would rip apart an Open Top vehicle. I mean seriously, this is a dedicated siege engine and assault breacher going up against a "Convertable". It would be obliterated! The Iron clad would just leap on it, Hulk style and crush it. Or slam it like a Lineback hitting a quarterback either way the vehicle has a slim chance of surviving.

OT I would love to see a Slam Charge from a Dreadnought, it should be able to shoulder barge and body slam, units. Peoples elbow from a Contemptor anyone?


Not my quote for note. I just was telling him that the quote was from someone thinking of what AP values would be attached to things.

I guess it would make sense though, since otherwise the seismic hammer would be equal to the DCCW chainfist


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 13:35:20


Post by: kronk


spaceXjam wrote:here is how it is going to work:


I stopped reading at Lightning claws going on I1 and P10. I'm not buying that, man.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 14:13:28


Post by: DogOfWar


htj wrote:As to the credibility of spaceXjam's post:

spaceXjam wrote:i have just reosrted to stealing alot of my stuff from gamesworkshop stores i stole a whole battleforce. i brought one and had the recipet then had my friend walk past the front door gave it to him and then i picked another one of the shelf quickly and just walked out if they had asked me i had my recipet.. but i talked to the guys working for like 20 mins to sell myself as a genuine dude... yeah lol stolen heaps of blisters to i have like 5 lord creeds and kells i sold them on ebay for 99 cents haha


Sounds like the kinda guy who'd be deep into the GW design department. Seems legit.
Thanks for the heads up. What a thieving piece of gak.

DoW


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 14:29:37


Post by: biccat


Luke_Prowler wrote:
biccat wrote:
Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW

But who has 6+ armor? Not much. And if all CCW are automatically AP 6, then 6+ armor is effectively worthless (moreso than it already is). What types of weapons remain that are AP -? Lasguns and maybe some nid ranged weapons?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 14:54:28


Post by: mwnciboo


Shotguns are AP - aren't they?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 14:55:12


Post by: English Assassin


biccat wrote:
Luke_Prowler wrote:
biccat wrote:
Claws and teeth, combat blades, other basic close combat weapons: AP 6

Translation: no AP for guard, nids, dark eldar.

except every Guard unit has a CCW

But who has 6+ armor? Not much. And if all CCW are automatically AP 6, then 6+ armor is effectively worthless (moreso than it already is). What types of weapons remain that are AP -? Lasguns and maybe some nid ranged weapons?

The solution to that would be to start at AP- for CCWs, laspistols, autopistols, etc., then make better weapons (1pt chainswords?) AP6. The stumbling block, of course, is that bolt pistols would have to be AP5, which makes it rather difficult to construct an evenly-distributed hierarchy. It's worth pointing out that ranged weapons suffer from the same problem of clustering around certain values: almost no weapons but krak missiles are AP3, while there are oodles at AP2 and AP4. It has annoyed me for years that pretty much all weapons that are good for killing bog-standard Marines are equally good for killing Terminators, which removes the necessity for tactical choices in a game which should instead make them important.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 14:59:24


Post by: Grey Templar


I have found it odd that there is very little beyond Krak missiles and IG ordinance thats AP3. There needs to be more AP3 out there.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:01:14


Post by: mwnciboo


I think Plasma guns should be AP3. It would fit the vengeance rounds that sternguard use. AP2 is a bit high for Plasma, Conversion Beamers should be brought back and I think they are given FW's penchant for them recently, I can see 6th Edition being the return of the Beamer. As a long suffering Iron Hands Player I welcome the Conversion beamer being brought back to the fore.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:04:40


Post by: English Assassin


It would necessitate some general rebalancing (ie Terminators and Meganobz would have to go up in price, lists would have to be checked to ensure that all armies have access to melta/lascannon equivalents), but yes, AP3 plasma (and AP3 power weapons) would restore Terminators to what the fluff says they should be (and indeed to what they were in 2nd Ed.).


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:09:10


Post by: Grey Templar


I have always thought that Terminators(even assault terminators) were a little sqishy for what they were in the Fluff.

I'm a veteran of a thousand campaigns, killed more stuff then many marines see in a lifetime, hero of the chapter... and I'm still just a WS4, 2 attack schmo in a fancy suit.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:13:28


Post by: mwnciboo


Grey Templar wrote:I have always thought that Terminators(even assault terminators) were a little sqishy for what they were in the Fluff.

I'm a veteran of a thousand campaigns, killed more stuff then many marines see in a lifetime, hero of the chapter... and I'm still just a WS4, 2 attack schmo in a fancy suit.


QFT -

But then you play Space Hulk and get raped all day long by 'stealers. "Whatever is on that Space Hulk, feth it, it's not worth it. Port Battery full bombardment of the Hulk please" Yeah I wouldn't be a popular Commander but I would be bloody effective and my Veterans would certainly see an exponential rise in their life expectancy.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:16:43


Post by: Grey Templar


YES!!!

Would a second wound kill you GW!

"Hey Mat, your spiritual liege would approve!"


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:22:06


Post by: mwnciboo


One of things that annoys me, certainly in tournament play (and I'm going a little off piste here) is Meta lists. The fundamental lack of balance is shown when lists are generic, despite the huge variety of units and combinations. We all lump for the same type lists, at the Competition last weekend, the guy who came third ran an entire Space Marine Vanilla list based around 4 Tactical squads, devastators, lead by Marneus Calgar and a squad of Tactical Termies with Cyclones. Matt won everygame hands down. Through sheer badass Powerfists and overwhelming numbers of Krak missiles.

It's the same with GK, BA, SW etc etc.

I played FOW last weekend at the same event and I play Panzer Lehr, with a pair of Tiger Tanks attached. 4/5 players I faced were germans sporting either Panthers or Tigers....Yawn (Although I had them too so i'm as much to blame.....).

Meta-lists show how bad the rules are from a balance perspective, some say it's optimised, I say it's lobotomised. I just don't know how we get around it, well we could just make more balanced games, and I think this is where people say silly things like "40k needs more complexity" it already has it in spades, it's just most people only explore/ use about 20% of the unit/ combinations that they actually could.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 15:27:34


Post by: biccat


Grey Templar wrote:I'm a veteran of a thousand campaigns, killed more stuff then many marines see in a lifetime, hero of the chapter... and I'm still just a WS4, 2 attack schmo in a fancy suit.

You think that's rough? I was one of the first soldiers created to spread the Imperium across the galaxy. Fought daemons inside the warp and the best the Imperium had to offer without for millenia. Daemonic energy has infused my very being.

I get to carry a bolt pistol.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 16:44:06


Post by: Kingsley


mwnciboo wrote:One of things that annoys me, certainly in tournament play (and I'm going a little off piste here) is Meta lists. The fundamental lack of balance is shown when lists are generic, despite the huge variety of units and combinations. We all lump for the same type lists, at the Competition last weekend, the guy who came third ran an entire Space Marine Vanilla list based around 4 Tactical squads, devastators, lead by Marneus Calgar and a squad of Tactical Termies with Cyclones. Matt won everygame hands down. Through sheer badass Powerfists and overwhelming numbers of Krak missiles.


What are you talking about when you say "meta?" Also, "generic" lists are often referred to as "balanced" lists and are normally what we strive for, no? Lists that only shoot or only assault are unbalanced, while lists that can do both are more effective...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 16:57:04


Post by: mwnciboo


@FETTERKEY - META - lists exploit supposed mistakes/ unbalanced elements/ Undercosted units within the rules to maximum effect and that allow an army to be fielded that normally would not be able to be fielded. Some people say they are Geographic to regions, this is nonsense, it comes from the CODEX which is the same whether you are in the UK, Belgium or Arkansas. Some units are very cheap for the amount of abilities, HW's and options you get.

A good example is the Blood Angel Razorback Spam list. Like this @ 2000 points

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

Librarian 100
Blood Lance
Shield of Sanginius

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

5 Assault Marines 165
Flamer
Razorback
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Baal Predator 120
TL Assault Cannon
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

Vindicator 150
Dozer Blades

2000

It takes advantage of the Assault Marines being troops (huh?) and getting a nice little assist by gaining cheap Razorbacks. So you literally spam them.

This is an example of a META-List and is difficult to defeat. Remembering that all Blood Angel Tanks are FAST TANKS! There are 3-4 Tournament META lists like this and at least 6-7 people will be running these lists at an event maybe even more.

Another is SW's which come in lots of flavours.

LONGFANG META LIST.

Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf
5 Wolf Scouts, Meltagun and Meltabombs
5 Wolf Scouts, Meltagun and Meltabombs
5 Wolf Guard, 4 with Combi-Melta / Powerfist, 1 with Terminator Armor, Cyclone Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers

Another Version

Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane
Rune Priest, Chooser of the Slain, Living Lightning, Jaws of the World Wolf
5 Wolf Scouts, Meltagun and Meltabombs
4Wolf Guard, 3 with Combi-Flamers and Powerfist, 1 with Frost Axe
Dreadnought with Two Twin-Linked Autocannons and Extra Armor
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
9 Grey Hunters, Meltagun, Powerfist, Mark of the Wolfen, Wolf Standard. Mounted in a Rhino
Landspeeder, Typhoon Launcher and Heavy Flamer
Landspeeder, Typhoon Launcher and Heavy Flamer
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers
6 Long Fangs, 5 Missile Launchers

These lists differ from C:SM because their points costs are usually cheaper and they have abilities and USR's beyond the normal Astartes etc. This makes them Uber Competitive and therefore solid lists but ultimately unfulfilled because there is little variation. If you come up against these lists, you need a META-BREAKER List, which is such a specialised List you will be useless against other armies and that is why META-Lists generally do well. It's interesting when two META Lists meet.

You can have a Balanced list, but with the amount of Assault Cannon Razorbacks you will pour out Twin linked Rending badass, the fast vindicators and Baal Preds will rip you apart.

There are meta lists for GK's, DE, ELDAR, IG infact every RACE has a META List. Equally the META-Game is about the 3M's MECH, MELTA and MOBILITY.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:07:50


Post by: ZebioLizard2


mwnciboo wrote:I think Plasma guns should be AP3. It would fit the vengeance rounds that sternguard use. AP2 is a bit high for Plasma, Conversion Beamers should be brought back and I think they are given FW's penchant for them recently, I can see 6th Edition being the return of the Beamer. As a long suffering Iron Hands Player I welcome the Conversion beamer being brought back to the fore.


The Conversion Beamer was brought back in 5th, what with the it being in C:SM and GK

Also plasma being AP3..Yeah honestly, no, because plasma has been always like this, even in 2nd edition and rogue trader it was one of the most effective things at knocking down that 2D6 terminator armor save.

Also, it would Completely Ruin Tau


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:10:55


Post by: Unit1126PLL


Plasma is fine at AP2. It is a bolt of high-energy ions, after all.

Though don't get me started on it...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:15:54


Post by: mwnciboo


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:I think Plasma guns should be AP3. It would fit the vengeance rounds that sternguard use. AP2 is a bit high for Plasma, Conversion Beamers should be brought back and I think they are given FW's penchant for them recently, I can see 6th Edition being the return of the Beamer. As a long suffering Iron Hands Player I welcome the Conversion beamer being brought back to the fore.


The Conversion Beamer was brought back in 5th, what with the it being in C:SM and GK]


Yes it was but only for the MOTF (less said about GK the better)..... Not really a strong HQ choice. The Contemptor and the New DEIMOS PATTERN PREDATOR EXECUTIONER both come with Conversion Beamers, yes it is 30k stuff but I doubt they would have done it if they hadn't touched base with the GW team in the Studio over the way at the same site. I predict it will be an option for more vehicles rather than an obscure upgrade to a HQ model!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:16:41


Post by: Kingsley


mwnciboo wrote:META - lists exploit supposed mistakes/ unbalanced elements/ Undercosted units within the rules to maximum effect and that allow an army to be fielded that normally would not be able to be fielded.

A good example is the Blood Angel Razorback Spam list. Like this @ 2000 points


That list isn't good.

mwnciboo wrote:It takes advantage of the Assault Marines being troops (huh?) and getting a nice little assist by gaining cheap Razorbacks. So you literally spam them.


Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?

mwnciboo wrote:This is an example of a META-List and is difficult to defeat. Remembering that all Blood Angel Tanks are FAST TANKS! There are 3-4 Tournament META lists like this and at least 6-7 people will be running these lists at an event maybe even more.


I went to a tournament once and played an army like that in my first game. I defeated it with my balanced list.

mwnciboo wrote:LONGFANG META LIST.


So... an average Space Wolf army? What's the horrible broken part there?

mwnciboo wrote:These lists differ from C:SM because their points costs are usually cheaper and they have abilities and USR's beyond the normal Astartes etc.


And Space Marines have abilities and USRs that these guys don't get. What's your point?

mwnciboo wrote:This makes them Uber Competitive and therefore solid lists but ultimately unfulfilled because there is little variation. If you come up against these lists, you need a META-BREAKER List, which is such a specialised List you willbe useless against other armies and that is why META-Lists generally do well. It's interesting when two META Lists meet.


Your comments don't match my experience in tournament play. A strong list with a balance between assault and shooting (like the Space Wolf one you just posted) will do fine against a wide variety of lists, "META" or no "META."


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:22:11


Post by: ZebioLizard2



Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?


I find they shouldn't be getting a transport for cheaper (By points cost, a 5 man assault squad with melta in a razorback is Cheaper than a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback)

Tacticals in that list just get jacked, there's really no point to taking them, even taking a rhino with full ten man squads is cheaper for Assault.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:23:02


Post by: TheMostWize


Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.


^ This... It just gives people even more reason to spam TH/SS terminators. Wait all your paladins who only have Force Weapons which count as power weapons unless activated AP 3, well then let me charge with my 5 man TH/SS squad roll 2s and proceed to stomp your face.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:23:37


Post by: Unit1126PLL


ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?


I find they shouldn't be getting a transport for cheaper (By points cost, a 5 man assault squad with melta in a razorback is Cheaper than a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback)


This. I'd be ok if their transports had the caveat that jump infantry could ride in them, or if their assault marines had the option to ditch their jump packs.

But WTF is the discount for? It's not like the Blood Angels have more tanks than anyone else - that title goes to the Aurora Chapter.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:30:57


Post by: Kingsley


ZebioLizard2 wrote:Tacticals in that list just get jacked, there's really no point to taking them, even taking a rhino with full ten man squads is cheaper for Assault.


Why wouldn't it be? Assault Marines without jump packs are significantly worse than Tactical Marines.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:32:38


Post by: Kain


mwnciboo wrote:*Long list snip*

I don't think you brought quite enough assault cannons there.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:33:11


Post by: mwnciboo


Well I'm sorry it doesn't match you experience. But my experience is that META - Lists abound and they are difficult to defeat, because they exploit costings etc. (I play Vanilla Marines and know the CODEX well).

Okay if you want to play the hard way lets compare my Codex Devastator Squad with a Space Wolf one.

Okay I get 4 HW's and a Signum max number 10 men.

SW's get 5 HW's and Fire Control (much better USR) max numbers 6, all HW's are cheaper. (C:SM LC = 35 points C:SW LC = 25 points) Okay so that's 10 points less but they only 15points per model e.g 90 for 6 men.... My Codex one costs 90 points 5 men....

So in direct comparison they get an extra HW, cheaper and the ability to split fire though they have a smaller squad size.

Equally a Tactical Squad is no match for a SW Grey Hunter Squad, despite their LD 8 they are all round superior and about the same price.

You are not comparing like with like, CODEX SW is not balanced neither is BA or GK, that's why they are popular. Your comment below shows exactly why the META list works you get alot of bang for your buck, the SW list above is a META list. It's not about Balance, or synergy it's about overloading the enemy with more than they can cope with. It's the reason you don't see Skyclaws, or Blood Claws because by comparison they are expensive.

"Your comments don't match my experience in tournament play. A strong list with a balance between assault and shooting (like the Space Wolf one you just posted) will do fine against a wide variety of lists, "META" or no "META."

If you don't believe in META lists then fine, I wish you the best. However I do believe in them, I've seen them, fought them, beaten them, lost to them, but it is never easy. The same with BA FNP DoA Jump pack Spam army. META lists abound, because everyone knows what works and what doesn't and that indicates a lack of balance as Players gravitate towards these generic stock/effective lists, this makes the game less diverse and less fulfilling as at a Tournament you see 7 SW armies, 6 BA Armies, 5 GK armies, 3 Orks , 2 Necron , 3 Eldar etc.

That FETTERKEY is the issue, the lack of balance leads alot of players down the same list path. the fact you think the Space Wolf lists is balanced, is a bit odd because your are either Assault Army, Shooty Army, Fast Attack, Mobile etc. You cannot do everything Balanced, because a META List concentrates on one thing and does it very well. You cannot be good/ balanced at everything, that's what Codex SM tries and fails at, you have to cherry pick your list to maximise your effectiveness and you are never balanced.



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:36:57


Post by: Kingsley


mwnciboo wrote:Well I'm sorry it doesn't match you experience. But my experience is that META - Lists abound and they are difficult to defeat, because they exploit costings etc.

Okay if you want to play the hard way lets compare my Codex Devastator Squad with a Space Wolf one.


Long Fangs aren't underpriced, Space Marine Devastators are overpriced.

mwnciboo wrote:Equally a Tactical Squad is no match for a SW Grey Hunter Squad, despite their LD 8 they are all round superior and about the same price.


Tactical Marines still have strong options.

mwnciboo wrote:You are not comparing like with like, CODEX SW is not balanced neither is BA or GK, that's why they are popular. Your comment below shows exactly why the META list works you get alot of bang for your buck, the SW list above is a META list. It's not about Balance, or synergy it's about overloading the enemy with more than they can cope with. It's the reason you don't see Skyclaws, or Blood Claws because by comparison they are expensive.


"META" is an invented term that appears to mean "lists mwnciboo doesn't like."

mwnciboo wrote:The same with BA FNP DoA Jump pack Spam army.


That's a gimmick army that isn't even good. It automatically loses to armies that beat it in CC.

mwnciboo wrote:META lists abound, because everyone knows what works and what doesn't and that indicates a lack of balance as Players gravitate towards these generic stock/effective lists, this makes the game less diverse and less fulfilling as at a Tournament you see 7 SW armies, 6 BA Armies, 5 GK armies, 3 Orks , 2 Necron , 3 Eldar etc.


So it's bad that people take units they find effective?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:39:34


Post by: Kain


Long Fangs are underpriced, Blood Angel Devastators are just about right, Vanilla devastators are overpriced. That's how I see it from an outsider's perspective of someone who's never used an MEQ army.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:45:34


Post by: mwnciboo


@FETTERKEY I have got to be honest "META" is an invented term that appears to mean "lists mwnciboo doesn't like." Is the funniest thing I've read in a while. You need to hit the search engines a bit and stop digging a bigger hole for yourself. I'm a nice guy, so I won't hold that comment against you, but it made me chuckle.

So now the argument is that you are not exploiting the cheaper Dev's in Codex Space wolves but it's my fault for picking an unbalanced and over costed codex?

Well that proves my point about people gravitating to the SW, BA and GK codex and META lists because they are more effective for the points cost does it not?

Now if you ready my earlier post, I was actually advocating better balance between the codexes to reduce META lists and stop this gravitating towards the Holy trinity of BA, GK and SW.

Anyway if you want to debate this further great lets start a Thread, and we can stop derailing this one.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 17:50:43


Post by: Kingsley


mwnciboo wrote:So now the argument is that you are not exploiting the cheaper Dev's in Codex Space wolves but it's my fault for picking an unbalanced and over costed codex?

Well that proves my point about people gravitating to the SW, BA and GK codex and META lists because they are more effective for the points cost does it not?


One unit costing more doesn't mean the whole Codex is less effective for its cost. Try looking at the costs of TH/SS Terminators if you want to see a unit that's stronger in Codex: Space Marines than in other books. Each Codex has units that are better and worse relative to units in other books, and you should play to your own Codex's strengths when making an army.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 18:01:33


Post by: mwnciboo


C:SM across the board is poor compared to GK, BA, SW it's not just one unit the things they don't get are occassionally good fun, IronClad Dreadnoughts for example. There are some nice to haves, but really not much. LSS anyone? I would rather have a scout squad Elite unit with a Melta gun. My Assault Termies whilst great, don't get FNP where as the Sanguinary Guard do or Death Company or alternatively being assaulted by Thunderwolves or receiving a Salvo of Krak Missiles from a LONGFANG unit? Against assault armies with PW's and High Initiative my Assault Termies will get spanked even with a 3+ INV. The best unit is possibly the Company Command unit with a Apoc for FNP and lots Relic Blades, fast hard hitting and can perform sweeping advances unlike termies.

This is key to this, across the board Codex SM's get slammed unless you take a Special character like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan or Pedro. Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.

The strength of Codex SM's is Gunline, but against an all out assault list like the Razorback Spam one, you have to kill those RB's outside of 24" or you've had it, same with DoA. I've been playing C:SM for years and in the last 2-3 years the Codex Creep from BA, SW to GK has been horrendous. I fight as Iron Hands, one of the original 18, and the loyalist 9 and yet C:SM doesn't even give us a special character. I have run counts as Shrike for FLeet Assault Terminators and it's a great build but it's not strong enough across the board to be a META. Where as the BA, SW & GK have enough Uber units to really punish you.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:03:02


Post by: BlapBlapBlap


It'd make Golden Rain able to beat GK, and that's all that I need.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:05:20


Post by: Grimnarsmate


Dark Eldar vs 2+ armor save = our only ap 2 or 1 weapons are lances...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:20:42


Post by: BlapBlapBlap


Grimnarsmate wrote:Dark Eldar vs 2+ armor save = our only ap 2 or 1 weapons are lances...

I don't know what list you run, but there should be Lances coming out of everything.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:23:22


Post by: mwnciboo


Damn beat me! I got battered by a list of open topped vehicles Lancing me to death about 6 weeks back, what are those things called that the infantry can hang off all spikey and that?

Anyway he hammered me with those on Dawn of War, so he was over half across the table at the start, I was hemmed in and the Incurbai got in their and intestines were flying!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:25:44


Post by: ChiliPowderKeg


Iridium armor Shas'O gets a slight buff in combat.

Less sneaky PW wounds from powers blobs I guess


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:31:21


Post by: Kingsley


mwnciboo wrote:C:SM across the board is poor compared to GK, BA, SW it's not just one unit the things they don't get are occassionally good fun, IronClad Dreadnoughts for example. There are some nice to haves, but really not much. LSS anyone? I would rather have a scout squad Elite unit with a Melta gun.


Space Marines can take Thunderfire Cannons, cheaper Assault Terminators, Null Zone and Gate of Infinity, several great special characters, etc.

mwnciboo wrote:Against assault armies with PW's and High Initiative my Assault Termies will get spanked even with a 3+ INV.


Um, what? My Assault Terminators regularly stomp Grey Knight units. 3++ really does go a long way-- the only unit that my Assault Terminators honestly fear in assault, aside from giant hordes, is Death Cult Assassins with grenade support.

mwnciboo wrote:The best unit is possibly the Company Command unit with a Apoc for FNP and lots Relic Blades, fast hard hitting and can perform sweeping advances unlike termies.


Command Squads aren't really good and haven't been good for a while. The biker command squad "super" unit doesn't stack up anymore, and the normal one isn't particularly impressive. Also, Command Squads can't take relic blades and relic blades are bad anyway (single lightning claws cost half as much and are generally better).

mwnciboo wrote:This is key to this, across the board Codex SM's get slammed unless you take a Special character like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan or Pedro.


So Codex: Space Marines is bad if you take away a lot of its good options? Uh... okay? Codex: Space Wolves would be bad too if you couldn't take Long Fangs or Rune Priests. One of the key facets of Codex: Space Marines is the way that special characters work in the context of the list as a whole. That said, this is also a rather exaggerated claim. I personally tend to avoid fielding special characters (sometimes I take Cassius or Telion), as I don't find them hugely effective.

mwnciboo wrote:Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.


But in this case Combat Tactics *did* work for you-- it prevented the Orks from firing! I honestly think Combat Tactics is substantially better than Stubborn, Fleet, or Counter Attack.

mwnciboo wrote:The strength of Codex SM's is Gunline, but against an all out assault list like the Razorback Spam one, you have to kill those RB's outside of 24" or you've had it, same with DoA. I've been playing C:SM for years and in the last 2-3 years the Codex Creep from BA, SW to GK has been horrendous. I fight as Iron Hands, one of the original 18, and the loyalist 9 and yet C:SM doesn't even give us a special character. I have run counts as Shrike for FLeet Assault Terminators and it's a great build but it's not strong enough across the board to be a META. Where as the BA, SW & GK have enough Uber units to really punish you.


I play as a custom Iron Hands successor chapter and I've been doing quite well. I used to have close to a pure gunline army, but I realized that this wasn't the strength of Codex: Space Marines-- Codex: Space Marines is great at owning the middle of the field with flexible and effective units, and now that I've switched to a build that has better ability to move into the center of the field and control the game I've been doing much better.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 19:40:28


Post by: Kain


Oh jeeze here we go with the "The game is balanced!" "No it isn't!" Debate.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 20:07:58


Post by: Redbeard


TedNugent wrote:This would actually benefit Orks tremendously. Orks use Power Fists almost exclusively, there literally is not a dedicated Power Weapon in the entire Codex. Assuming you still need AP2 to defeat Feel No Pain, that means Nobs gain some tremendous survivability and Meganobz may become viable.
All for no loss in offensive power.


Unless you consider that everyone's base CC attack will ignore our already weak armour...


I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 20:08:01


Post by: DarknessEternal


I support any rule change that makes Terminators tougher. Terminator armor used to be the second toughest thing in the game (to Carnifexes, yes, all vehicles weren't as tough). They have been cheapened over the years and it isn't something I care for.

I play Eldar so the only thing I have to gain from tougher Terminators is a headache. But that's just the way they should be.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 20:25:28


Post by: mwnciboo


Fetterkey wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.


But in this case Combat Tactics *did* work for you-- it prevented the Orks from firing! I honestly think Combat Tactics is substantially better than Stubborn, Fleet, or Counter Attack.


WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.

Chapter tactics is great, unless the other player is wise to it. He didn't shoot me because he knew I would opt to pull back and he wouldn't get to assault me this turn and I would rapid fire him next turn. So he choose not to shoot denying me the chance to use Combat tactics and then charged me anyway, he tactically choose not to shoot to deny me the chance of escape. he effectively sealed my fate. How in gods name is that good for me?

So bottomline Chapter tactics is bloody useless if the other player knows how it works and prevents you from pulling it off. They cannot prevent you using fleet (giving a minimum charge range of 13" and max 18"), you can fail your counter attack roll, and stubborn keeps you in the assault.

I'm not getting into this anymore i'm done. Read up on Meta-gaming.



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 20:28:27


Post by: Kingsley


Redbeard wrote:I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.


One interesting thing to consider is the "pancake edition" rumor that power weapons would grant a 5+ invulnerable save in close combat. If that occurs in conjunction with this rumor, I think power weapons would definitely have a use case. In fact, the earlier "pancake edition" rumors would have made power weapons totally dominant over power fists. If we see some of those changes but also power fists having greater AP values, I think that would lead to a good balance between the two weapons on characters who can take either, while still not ruining dedicated power weapon or power fist units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote:WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.


Uh, trivially yes? If they shot AND assaulted you, you would lose more models. The fact that they only assaulted you and didn't shoot you means Combat Tactics saved some of your guys.

mwnciboo wrote:So bottomline Chapter tactics is bloody useless if the other player knows how it works and prevents you from pulling it off. They cannot prevent you using fleet (giving a minimum charge range of 13" and max 18"), you can fail your counter attack roll, and stubborn keeps you in the assault.


Why would I want to stay in the assault?

mwnciboo wrote:I'm not getting into this anymore i'm done. Read up on Meta-gaming.


Based on this and the general tone of your posts, I have a feeling you think you're substantially better than you actually are.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 21:14:42


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


Ok guys could you take it into another thread please? It's way off topic now.

In regards to the OP, since the re-writing of terminators for 3rd ed, terminators have slowly been increasing in power. Originally they only had a 2+ save, then they got 2+/5+ and now they are basically going to be invulnerable to all weaponry except AP1 or 2. This change in the rules will hugely benefit armies that are already lording it over the other armies.

Who can get the most 2+ saves into their army?
Who can get the most PF into their army?

If you want to buff terminators to the point of god hood (like the fluff) 3+ save on 2D6... job done. If your just trying to reduce Power Weapons casualty rate then just bring back save modifiers of 2nd Ed... job done.

Simply put terminators are already the most durable infantry in the game, anything that takes down a termie will take down anything else easier...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 21:26:22


Post by: Kingsley


JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:In regards to the OP, since the re-writing of terminators for 3rd ed, terminators have slowly been increasing in power. Originally they only had a 2+ save, then they got 2+/5+ and now they are basically going to be invulnerable to all weaponry except AP1 or 2.


How so? Six normal wounds still kill a Terminator on average. I honestly think Terminators should be 2 wounds or 3+ on 2d6 (yes, this means krak missiles would pierce their armor).

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:This change in the rules will hugely benefit armies that are already lording it over the other armies


It's mostly a nerf to Grey Knights, who many people consider the best army at present, so I'm not sure how this hugely benefits others.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Who can get the most 2+ saves into their army? Who can get the most PF into their army?


The widely-feared Dark Angels, of course! They will be even more dominant with... oh wait...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 21:50:58


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


They would still get their armour saves against normally caused wounds... if they fail 6 then they are just unlucky or have just been hit with 36 wounds (as an average) if that were marines it would be double the number of casualties, if it were orks... well you get the picture... I think thats actually pretty damn resilient...

We don't know if its a nerf to grey knights as there isn't anything in there about codex specific weapons... and why would GW make normal termies BETTER than GK termies all of a sudden? (highly unlikely)

DA don't even have an up to date codex yet... so who knows what changes will happen there. Either way the point is they are a variant SM codex... SM can get the most 2+ saves and the most PF AND more often do so....

EDIT: An even simpler way to make termies more resilient... allow them to take their ++ save AS WELL AS their + save.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/05 22:41:50


Post by: Kingsley


JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:We don't know if its a nerf to grey knights as there isn't anything in there about codex specific weapons... and why would GW make normal termies BETTER than GK termies all of a sudden? (highly unlikely)


The only widely used competitive unit that has basic power weapons is Death Cult Assassins, who are primarily found in Codex: Grey Knights. If the NFWs get the nerf as well, it'll be a pretty solid blow against the GK codex.

JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:EDIT: An even simpler way to make termies more resilient... allow them to take their ++ save AS WELL AS their + save.


I'm not a great fan of this idea because it would make TH/SS terminators even better (relative to normal Terminators) than they already are. The current changes strike me as good because they'll provide players with more reason to take normal Terminators, who I personally would like to see on the table more often!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 00:32:14


Post by: Grey Templar


I would say Terminators got worse.

3+ on 2D6 is MUCH better then 2+ on D6(and Krak missiles were different then)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 00:52:48


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Grey Templar wrote:I would say Terminators got worse.

3+ on 2D6 is MUCH better then 2+ on D6(and Krak missiles were different then)


Everything was different back than, what with different values for all the power weapons (From swords that are able to parry, to one/two handed power axes, and power mauls and the like)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 02:41:10


Post by: terranarc


If you look at terminators in a vacuum the yes they got buffed. But look at everything else and you'll see that the opposite is true.
Spells in earlier edition were mostly AP4-5. Weapons that weren't plasma or anti-tank were rarely AP2 or AP3.
These days, everyone and their allies get some form of AP2 or cheap high initiative power weapon.
I would much prefer (as a DA DW player) a world where AP2 was rare and give up the 5++ that never does anything when I desperately need it to.

Also I checked up on the whole,
PF Ap2 CF Ap1 thing on BoW.
That was just some guy's comment who has NO CREDIBILITY what so ever.

And my original notion of why TH/SS would be nerfed was because imagine everything but chainfists and things that rolled 2d6 was AP3.
This would mean that a squad of assault or tactical terminators are only AP3. A squad of tactical terminators with CHAINFISTS (that no one uses) would all have AP2.
Now, TH/SS is good primarily because of SS's 3++ but in a world where you'd be able to use your 2+ against most things, stormshields become far less valuable in CC.
While this isn't a direct nerf to TH/SS, its a relative nerf to your tactical terminators who have access to AP2, shooting and heavy weapons.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 02:57:22


Post by: Snickerdoodle


Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 10:07:18


Post by: terranarc


Snickerdoodle wrote:Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.

Oh wow I didn't even think about paladins at all. I guess they would be extra happy if only chainfists and monstrous creatures became AP2.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 12:01:48


Post by: Kain


terranarc wrote:
Snickerdoodle wrote:Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.

Oh wow I didn't even think about paladins at all. I guess they would be extra happy if only chainfists and monstrous creatures became AP2.

As someone who finds Draigowing to be annoying as all feth to kill I have only this to say.



Great now my bonesword warriors and tyrant guards are going to do all of jack and squat to a draigowing. Might as well tell my wife to shelve the Howling Banshees too.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 12:05:27


Post by: DarthOvious


terranarc wrote:So if you've been watching BoW's 6th leaks, you might've caught the AP3 powersword comment Darrel made and that got me seriously thinking about the future of 2+.

What if all generic power weapons including fists and hammers become ap3? And the only CCWs that remain AP2 are weapons that roll 2d6 for armor pen. I can see GW doing this and heres why:
The only 2 units that really use and rely on 2+ armor saves are terminators and MANZ. If chainfists became the only way to get AP2 in close combat, it'd dramatically change the balance between tactical terminators and assault terminators. Right now everyone prefers TH/SS over your SB/PF option because of the exponentially higher survival rate in CC with storm shields but that would change as you'd be able to use your 2+ against most power weapons. In fact, this would give people a real reason to take chainfists other than just trying to slip a 2d6 armor pen in here and there.
This would be a dramatic buff to MANZ and tactical terminators while nerfing th/ss and being that GW has a habit of nerfing things people love to use and buffing things no one uses, I can easily see this happening.

Anyone else thinking this?

EDIT:
FAKE
So, current rumors put it as
Close Combat
*All Close Combat Weapons will have an AP value
* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1

So my rant about possible AP3 power fists/THs is off. On the other hand, AP1 chainfists yo.

EDIT2:
That ended up being some comment on BoW, not a real rumor. So once again, we don't know the AP values of chainfist, DLC, powerfist, TH/SS, ect.


If power weapons were to become AP3 then that would have a double effect on my Sanguinary Guard. They would be more survivable in combat against enemies with power weapons bu at the same time their damage output against AP2 would be reduced.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
htj wrote:Hmm, this'd be terrible business for my DE army. It would leave pretty much just Disintegrators and Blasters / Dark Lances that could bring down Terminators. May not sound like a big deal, but for a close combat based army like mine, with a frequent opponent of mine fielding Death Wing equivalent... not great.


Or you could just shoot them with lots of poision weapons from your open topped vehicles.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 12:33:23


Post by: Sigvatr


I can hardly imagine such a buff without any changes to GK...else they'd be even more ridiculous.

In general, discussing the change of AP is rather futile without knowing about all of the upcoming rule changes...salt in a vaccum


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 12:56:53


Post by: DarthOvious


Macok wrote:
Fetterkey wrote:That's fine. Units with 2+ saves have been underpowered since the beginning of 3rd edition.

Because nobody ever takes 2+ save on SM HQs.


Blood Angels player here.

Standard HQ for us is Libby with Power Armour or Chaplain with Power Armour. Sanguinary Guard have artificier armour but you don't see lots of BA lists with SG hopping about the place. Standard jumper list usually starts with Assault Squads with Priests for feel no pain. Heck, we can take Dante and then SG as troops if we want but it's not a list that gets taken all the time.

Mephiston gets taken because he's T6 with 5 wounds
The Sanguinor has a 2+ sv with a 3++ save and isn't considered great by many players although I love him for his 3++ save.
Dante is taken for deep striking without scattering and his hit & run rule.

Blood Angel players don't take units specifically for 2+ armour.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
tuebor wrote:I remember before 4th came out and the Internet declared that CC armies were doomed because you couldn't assault out of Rhinos or Wave Serpents anymore and how they were doomed for real before 5th because you couldn't consolidate into a new combat anymore. We know even less about 6th than we did 4th and 5th before they came out, I'd say it's safe to say we have nothing like a clear picture yet. Personally, I'll worry about the new rules when I actually see them rather than being all Chicken Little over a handful of vague half rumors that may or may not be true.


Although CC is still an important part of the game I have to say that shooting has overpassed it. The strongest lists you can get tend to be shooty lists.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 13:17:46


Post by: English Assassin


ZebioLizard2 wrote:Also plasma being AP3..Yeah honestly, no, because plasma has been always like this, even in 2nd edition and rogue trader it was one of the most effective things at knocking down that 2D6 terminator armor save.

Leaving aside the obvious fact that Terminators didn't have a 2D6 save in Rogue Trader, this is an embarrassingly ignorant statement. Plasma guns in 2nd Ed had a -2 saving throw modifier, plasma pistols a -1, and the heavy plasma gun (later to be renamed the plasma cannon) -3. Plasma was utterly crap for penetrating terminator armour; to do that you needed a lascannon (-6), metlagun or multi-melta (both -4).


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 13:18:18


Post by: DarthOvious


King Pariah wrote:Thunderhammers I think would make more sense as an AP2 weapon, I just don't see it as a dedicated tank popping weapon. But that just may be me.


I do. The way I see it is that Thunder Hammers are just basically powerfists with the added bonus of causing crew shaken results on transports. So they stick out to me as anti-tank pieces of wargear. In saying that MC's also strike at Init 1 in the following round of combat so they are also useful against them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fetterkey wrote:
mwnciboo wrote:META - lists exploit supposed mistakes/ unbalanced elements/ Undercosted units within the rules to maximum effect and that allow an army to be fielded that normally would not be able to be fielded.

A good example is the Blood Angel Razorback Spam list. Like this @ 2000 points


That list isn't good.


Well I have to agree that Dark Eldar venomspam is stronger. Faced one last night and I was blown away and my list was a mech type list, although different from the one he posted.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Do you actually think Blood Angels shouldn't be able to take Assault Marines as troops?


I find they shouldn't be getting a transport for cheaper (By points cost, a 5 man assault squad with melta in a razorback is Cheaper than a 5 man tactical squad in a razorback)

Tacticals in that list just get jacked, there's really no point to taking them, even taking a rhino with full ten man squads is cheaper for Assault.


I understand, but the reason for the discount is because the assault marines are taking their jump packs off. Sure they are better in CC than tacticals but they also have less range on their bolt pistols and can't rapid fire with them. The reason why tacticals are not taken isbecause they can only have one special weapon instead of two in a ten man squad and also a five man squad of tacticals can have nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote:@FETTERKEY I have got to be honest "META" is an invented term that appears to mean "lists mwnciboo doesn't like." Is the funniest thing I've read in a while. You need to hit the search engines a bit and stop digging a bigger hole for yourself. I'm a nice guy, so I won't hold that comment against you, but it made me chuckle.

So now the argument is that you are not exploiting the cheaper Dev's in Codex Space wolves but it's my fault for picking an unbalanced and over costed codex?

Well that proves my point about people gravitating to the SW, BA and GK codex and META lists because they are more effective for the points cost does it not?

Now if you ready my earlier post, I was actually advocating better balance between the codexes to reduce META lists and stop this gravitating towards the Holy trinity of BA, GK and SW.

Anyway if you want to debate this further great lets start a Thread, and we can stop derailing this one.


So basically Vanilla Marines need a new codex. One where you don't need to take Vulcan in order to make a good list.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 14:44:11


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Great now my bonesword warriors and tyrant guards are going to do all of jack and squat to a draigowing. Might as well tell my wife to shelve the Howling Banshees too.


Boneswords are not power weapons, they are ignore all armor, so they'll likely cut through AP2 still.



Leaving aside the obvious fact that Terminators didn't have a 2D6 save in Rogue Trader, this is an embarrassingly ignorant statement. Plasma guns in 2nd Ed had a -2 saving throw modifier, plasma pistols a -1, and the heavy plasma gun (later to be renamed the plasma cannon) -3. Plasma was utterly crap for penetrating terminator armour; to do that you needed a lascannon (-6), metlagun or multi-melta (both -4).


Or a lightning claw (-5), chain fist (-6), also the heavy plasma gun is (-6) on full blast, along with the Super Krak Missile from your Standard Missle Launchers (-6), Cyclone terminator missiles (-6), or the conversion Beamer (What armor save? haha), There's others, but I'm not gonna type out the entire book.

I'll be honest though, I had completely forgotten that plasma wasn't that hardcore back in 2nd, not to mention my rogue trader is rusty (I still have the Wargear book from 1993, and a few other smattering is books, but mostly just 2nd) Sorry about that. Think I combined a bit of my fantasy knowledge with it instead.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 14:50:23


Post by: DarthOvious


mwnciboo wrote: My Assault Termies whilst great, don't get FNP where as the Sanguinary Guard do or Death Company


Hang on. We do pay for our priests you know. We don't get the feel no pain for nothing. We have to invest pts in an indpendent character who can picked out in close combat. Yeah, the nice DOA FNP army is nice, but fully kitted out it's very expensive and comes out at over 300pts for the unit, 235 pts for the squad and 75pts for the priest with a jump pack, which can die very nicely under an S8 AP3 or better blast template.

Death Company on the other hand suffer from rage and pretty much need to go towards the nearest enemy.

This is key to this, across the board Codex SM's get slammed unless you take a Special character like Lysander, Calgar, Vulkan or Pedro. Combat Tactics is not comparable with Stubborn or Fleet or Counter Attack. It simply so situational that it rarely usable because it depends on taking shots and hits. I have seen ork players opt not to shoot me because they know I will Combat Tactics away if given the chance. So rather than shoot me then assault me, they opt not to shoot and then assault. Counter Assault in this situation would be superb, Fleet would have allowed me on the previous turn a good roll to get the drop on the Orks.


Agreed, codex Space Marines isn't so great anymore, but all this means is that you need a new codex.

The strength of Codex SM's is Gunline, but against an all out assault list like the Razorback Spam one, you have to kill those RB's outside of 24" or you've had it, same with DoA. I've been playing C:SM for years and in the last 2-3 years the Codex Creep from BA, SW to GK has been horrendous. I fight as Iron Hands, one of the original 18, and the loyalist 9 and yet C:SM doesn't even give us a special character. I have run counts as Shrike for FLeet Assault Terminators and it's a great build but it's not strong enough across the board to be a META. Where as the BA, SW & GK have enough Uber units to really punish you.


But it's not just BA, SW and GK. It's everything, its all the armies out there. The new Necron dex and also the DE codex aren't exactly crap. They can have some powerful lists in them too. Its codex creep across the board.

Just so you know I've been playing Blood Angels since 3rd Edition and I've had to put up with the same crap as well. I had to put up with a 3rd ed codex with a FAQ needed in order for it to be playable. I had to put up with some WHite Dwarf codex that gave us amazing exploding Rhinos with the only priest in the book being Corbulo. We've all been there and done that and yes codex creep happens but it's because the game system is so difficult to balance out in the first place and also because they are always trying to expand the amount of options available in each new release.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grimnarsmate wrote:Dark Eldar vs 2+ armor save = our only ap 2 or 1 weapons are lances...


WHich you get in abundance and different types of.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 14:55:42


Post by: labmouse42


This change would buff terminators and other 2+ save units slightly. This would stop some of the hard counters to the terminator army. For example, death cult assassins would not roll over a deathwing army.

When compared to a TH/SS terminator it would double their surviability vs power swords. While this is significant, it pales in comparison to how tactical terminators grow in survivability vs power swords.

This will be even more impactful if force weapons and rending also have AP3 effects -- making terminators a nice counter to the GK weapons or wraiths.

However, you cannot take one rumor and place it into the 5th edition ruleset to get the full impact of what this would mean. While this might buff terminator armies (and honor guard, etc), there might be other rules changes that nurf them.
Therefore, before you cry "My army is useless" wait for the full 6th edition to drop.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 14:55:58


Post by: DarthOvious


mwnciboo wrote:Damn beat me! I got battered by a list of open topped vehicles Lancing me to death about 6 weeks back, what are those things called that the infantry can hang off all spikey and that?

Anyway he hammered me with those on Dawn of War, so he was over half across the table at the start, I was hemmed in and the Incurbai got in their and intestines were flying!


They're called Venoms. Played a guy last night who was playing with a list like that. He had one Raider, two void ravens and lots of venoms. And of course the venoms are open topped and so the troops can shoot out with their poisioned 4+ weapons. Just be comforted in the fact that it will take them another 15 years before they get a new codex.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 14:58:55


Post by: labmouse42


Snickerdoodle wrote:Great idea now Paladins become even tougher to kill.
This is a prime example of someone taking the ruleset out of context by placing the ruleset into 5th edition. Sure, this would make paladins tougher to kill, but what if they get rid of wound allocation magic and change FNP to a 5+ save and modify cover to a 5+ save.

Suddenly that paladin unit becomes a lot easier to kill in shooting. Now, is the paladin unit better or worse?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 15:11:10


Post by: DarthOvious


mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.


Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.

Chapter tactics is great, unless the other player is wise to it. He didn't shoot me because he knew I would opt to pull back and he wouldn't get to assault me this turn and I would rapid fire him next turn. So he choose not to shoot denying me the chance to use Combat tactics and then charged me anyway, he tactically choose not to shoot to deny me the chance of escape. he effectively sealed my fate. How in gods name is that good for me?


Players are always going to find a way to nullify your strength. How is it good for me that my IC priest can be picked out in combat and murdered to stop me getting FNP & Furious charge?

So bottomline Chapter tactics is bloody useless if the other player knows how it works and prevents you from pulling it off. They cannot prevent you using fleet (giving a minimum charge range of 13" and max 18"), you can fail your counter attack roll, and stubborn keeps you in the assault.


Fleet is useless if you DON'T WANT to get into combat with the opposition. It just helps you run the other way which isn't too wise either as you'll get shot at while running away. Admittedly counter attack is brilliant.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:Ok guys could you take it into another thread please? It's way off topic now.

In regards to the OP, since the re-writing of terminators for 3rd ed, terminators have slowly been increasing in power. Originally they only had a 2+ save, then they got 2+/5+ and now they are basically going to be invulnerable to all weaponry except AP1 or 2. This change in the rules will hugely benefit armies that are already lording it over the other armies.

Who can get the most 2+ saves into their army?
Who can get the most PF into their army?

If you want to buff terminators to the point of god hood (like the fluff) 3+ save on 2D6... job done. If your just trying to reduce Power Weapons casualty rate then just bring back save modifiers of 2nd Ed... job done.

Simply put terminators are already the most durable infantry in the game, anything that takes down a termie will take down anything else easier...


Well yes, but its not like I only pay 15pts for a Terminator. I pay 40pts per Terminator.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 16:01:03


Post by: loota boy


DarthOvious wrote:
mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.


Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.


This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting." Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase. Lootas are great shooters as well. Of course, we are better in the assault phase, but we handle ourselves fine shooting-wise. Who needs accuracy if you can just drown the other guy in a hail of lead? As Joseph Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 16:36:57


Post by: Kain


loota boy wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.


Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.


This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting." Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase. Lootas are great shooters as well. Of course, we are better in the assault phase, but we handle ourselves fine shooting-wise. Who needs accuracy if you can just drown the other guy in a hail of lead? As Joseph Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

This, anyone assuming that the Orks are a non-factor in the shooting phase is in for a very rude surprise when the Ork player dumps a bucket load of dice when it's time for his guns to start pouring out the dakka.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 16:47:12


Post by: Redbeard


loota boy wrote:
This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting."


But it does mean that individual shot weapons, especially our AP2 options (zzap guns and Kustom Mega-Blastas) are rarely worth the points.


Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase.


I wouldn't call paying 180 points to kill three marines or one terminator within 18" very effective. It's a bucket of dice. Those dice rarely accomplish all that much, unfortunately. It works okay against other xenos armies, but they're rarely the most common opponents.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 17:00:30


Post by: loota boy


Redbeard wrote:
loota boy wrote:
This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting."


But it does mean that individual shot weapons, especially our AP2 options (zzap guns and Kustom Mega-Blastas) are rarely worth the points.

Of course. Never said anything of the sort, barring killa kans of course.


Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase.


I wouldn't call paying 180 points to kill three marines or one terminator within 18" very effective. It's a bucket of dice. Those dice rarely accomplish all that much, unfortunately. It works okay against other xenos armies, but they're rarely the most common opponents.


But it's not something to disregard either. Marines are tough to take down with base weapons, yes, but that's true for most armies. What i'm trying to say i guess is that anyone who sits about and says that you shouldn't worry about ork shooting because BS 2= are bad n stuff isn't really thinking that through. Shoota boyz are great against xenos armies, and are fine for dinging up a nasty unit you'd rather not tangle with. There are exceptions, yes, but saying ork shooting is crap is just wrong.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 17:14:27


Post by: Kain


Plus if Orks had BS3 or 4 I'm pretty sure they'd become outright broken with the amount of shots they can pour out.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 17:36:34


Post by: HawaiiMatt


So terminators saves in combat are a bit better; but I have twice the rapid-firing fire power? Sounds fair to me.
I'll trade half the kills in combat for 50% more in shooting.

-Matt


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 18:42:30


Post by: mwnciboo


I have to say Orks individually or small groups are not effective at shooting, they are individually poor. It's the old Stalin "Quantity vs Quality" argument in large numbers they are reasonable, but then as previous alluded to, Frag missiles, Whirlwinds, TFC and Vindicators really punish them. The key point many missed in my post, is the shooting is irrelevant, the ork player was stopping me using Combat tactics. yes he might killed one or two marines with shooting but I had a chance to escape, but he knew if got me in assault I would have to duke it out and lose. This is effective use of tactics, he denied me the use of combat tactics by deliberately not shooting, what he did was "seal my fate" by not giving me the chance to use Combat tactics, break off and possibly have another round of rapid firing him.

Orks are very effective in CC and not very effective in CQB shooting. He used his strength perfectly to counter my strengths and ultimately destroyed the unit. If I had Counter-assault (instead of Combat tactics) my 10 man unit would have put out double the number of attacks (assuming they pass the roll). If I could of killed few more orks potentially I could have won the combat. He knew my vanilla marines had Combat tactics and he made sound tactical decisions to ensure that I had no escape. The potential of killing a few more marines in shooting weighed against the chance for me to combat tactics away and rapid fire him, was judged to be too much of a risk for too little gain. I would say he was sound in his judgement.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 18:47:00


Post by: DarthOvious


loota boy wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
mwnciboo wrote: WHAT????????????????? So the fact they didn't shoot me, but then assaulted me anyway is a good thing? I'd soon take a round of shooting from 10 Orks than go toe to toe with 1 of them.


Without combat tactics they would have shot you and THEN ALSO assaulted you. So in effect you were saved the shooting part there. However considering that Orks are crap at shooting and fantastic in assault then don't expect to be beaten them in combat. Their main strength is numbers but low armour saves. You do realise that something as simple as a Whirlwind would have been extremely effective or even the C:SM only Thunderfire Cannon could have torn them apart, but then everybody takes something different and has different strengths/weaknesses.


This is a common mistake. Orks can be very deadly in the shooting phase. BS 2 does not neccissarily mean "crappy shooting." Our base troops, shoota boyz, are very effective in the shooting phase. Lootas are great shooters as well. Of course, we are better in the assault phase, but we handle ourselves fine shooting-wise. Who needs accuracy if you can just drown the other guy in a hail of lead? As Joseph Stalin once said, "Quantity has a quality all its own."


You're right, although they have crappy shooting skill they make up for it with lots of shots. I was just being a bit hyperbolic to play up their strength in combat by sheer weight of numbers of attacks.

Also please don't quote Stalin at me. You may respect him but he was a complete lunatic and I am not going to take any advice coming from him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kain wrote:Plus if Orks had BS3 or 4 I'm pretty sure they'd become outright broken with the amount of shots they can pour out.


I hope that pancake wasn't correct when it came to shooting modifiers. I would hate that.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 18:50:53


Post by: mwnciboo


I didn't quote him.... The actual quote would be "Quantity has a Quality all of it's own" but I take your point, it makes a nice piece of hyperbole. I don't respect him, I do find his statement on the pope amusing, as it shows what a complete butcher he was and how much of megalomanic obessed with military might he was; he would have probably fitted in fine in the 40k universe. Any man who kills 20 million plus in Gulags is not worthy of anything but contempt.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 18:59:41


Post by: DarthOvious


mwnciboo wrote:I didn't quote him.... The actual quote would be "Quantity has a Quality all of it's own" but I take your point, it makes a nice piece of hyperbole. I don't respect him, I do find his statement on the pope amusing, as it shows what a complete butcher he was and how much of megalomanic obessed with military might he was; he would have probably fitted in fine in the 40k universe. Any man who kills 20 million plus in Gulags is not worthy of anything but contempt.


My comment was aimed at loota boy originally but I can see you also have a quote by him in your sig. Fair enough, you have your reasons for that quote. I'm not saying that Stalin is wrong but I'd just rather if someone is going to make a point by quote, that they quote somebody who wasn't a lunatic.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 20:19:20


Post by: mwnciboo


Touche sir .... I concede your point. (although I have to say history has it's fair share of lunatics on the victorious/righteous side, history is written by the victors afterall )


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 21:26:31


Post by: DarthOvious


mwnciboo wrote:Touche sir .... I concede your point. (although I have to say history has it's fair share of lunatics on the victorious/righteous side, history is written by the victors afterall )


Sure, but Stalin was an extra special lunatic who needlessly slaughtered tons of his own people. Communism: one big massive failure.

Karl Marx: You need to get rid of religion, it allows the Tzars to oppress you.
Revolunionists : Okie Dokie.
Lennin: Muhahahahahaha, now we will oppress the people.
Stalin: I like the way you think.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 21:42:46


Post by: mwnciboo


I would heartily recommend a book on Chairman Mao's great leap forward. It's possibly the most unintentionally ridiculous and murderous thing every done by a communist country and actually was a great leap backwards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

Read all of this article...It literally beggars belief.

Communism doesn't work, but every year University spills out alot of little lefty believers, even though the whole system is impossible.

I think we've derailed this enough.....Roll on 6th Ed I want to see these rules !!!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 21:48:03


Post by: Testify


mwnciboo wrote:I didn't quote him.... The actual quote would be "Quantity has a Quality all of it's own" but I take your point, it makes a nice piece of hyperbole. I don't respect him, I do find his statement on the pope amusing, as it shows what a complete butcher he was and how much of megalomanic obessed with military might he was; he would have probably fitted in fine in the 40k universe. Any man who kills 20 million plus in Gulags is not worthy of anything but contempt.

If by 20 million you mean 1.6 million then yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag
I'm not sure if he'd fit in the 40k universe. Sure he was a bloodthirsty prick, but I can't see him taking very kindly to the Imperium. Even if he were a tyranical planetary governer he'd have to respect the Imperial Authority to a certain degree.
He was very much a "tin pot tyrant". Emotionally under-developed, technically inept, and an utter bastard.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 21:52:15


Post by: mwnciboo


The figures are widely disputed.
http://www.distributedrepublic.net/archives/2006/05/01/how-many-did-stalin-really-murder/

There is guy on Dakka called Big P, who is a Professional Historian, he will in a pinch tell you. He is amazing when it comes to WW2 and modern history and really helps with the Flames of War fraternity on Dakka.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/06 22:15:03


Post by: loota boy


woah woah woah, waaay off topic here guys. Take it to some other forum.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 06:18:57


Post by: DarthOvious


loota boy wrote:woah woah woah, waaay off topic here guys. Take it to some other forum.


Yes. Back to the topic at hand.

I think this change to the game would be an interesting one. Like I mentioned before, my Sanguinary Guard become a bit more lucrative to take if they get their armour save from normal power weapons. The game does need a bit of a shake up, so I hope we do get some good changes.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 19:18:21


Post by: andrewm9


DarthOvious wrote:
Yes. Back to the topic at hand.

I think this change to the game would be an interesting one. Like I mentioned before, my Sanguinary Guard become a bit more lucrative to take if they get their armour save from normal power weapons. The game does need a bit of a shake up, so I hope we do get some good changes.


I think it would be a bad change. Not every army has ubiquitous powerfists, lightnign claws, etc or their equivalent. Its hard enough for some armies in close combat and now they want to radically change power weapons too? Its too much. Leave it the way it was unless some armies get some radical buff to their shooting or close combat it will truly be over for them when it comes to competetiveness.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 19:45:54


Post by: ZebioLizard2


andrewm9 wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
Yes. Back to the topic at hand.

I think this change to the game would be an interesting one. Like I mentioned before, my Sanguinary Guard become a bit more lucrative to take if they get their armour save from normal power weapons. The game does need a bit of a shake up, so I hope we do get some good changes.


I think it would be a bad change. Not every army has ubiquitous powerfists, lightnign claws, etc or their equivalent. Its hard enough for some armies in close combat and now they want to radically change power weapons too? Its too much. Leave it the way it was unless some armies get some radical buff to their shooting or close combat it will truly be over for them when it comes to competetiveness.


There are very few armies that depend completely upon power weapons (I'm not convinced there are actually any that depend at least 50-100% upon them). Not to mention lightning claws count as power weapons, not power fists.

It'd nerf some armies, buff some, space marines are noticeable what with being at least half the group.

To be honest, it's kinda needed, 2+ armor is on it's own, completely worthless (Good example, Mega-Nobz). With this change we might finally see 2+ units that aren't just assault terminators or anything with a 3++ save.

I for one fear the power of a necron lord retinue, 3 of them with an overlord for about 300 points, each with 2+, MSS, and warscythe? That will put the fear of the Necrons into the heart of any elite based assault unit.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 19:47:42


Post by: ColdSadHungry


I'm not keen on this AP3 idea in isolation but it will be one rule of many when 6th hits if it's true and it may well balance out. My only hope is that we don't see only armour 2 troopers and nothing else on the field of battle and with GW now squeezing fliers into the mix, players will have to find some way of accommodating them and whatever units they need to counter them. If transports also take a nerf, then it's going to be very hard to justify taking any kind of unit with a crappy armour save, especially for armies that can't spam hundreds of models like orks or nids to try to mitigate the chance of losses.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 19:53:47


Post by: Spidey0804


My Repentia just got a whole lot better LOL.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 20:51:26


Post by: andrewm9


Spidey0804 wrote:My Repentia just got a whole lot better LOL.


No they didn't. They will work exactly as they did before except against vehicles (unless rules for the damage chart change). Repentia are still crappy IMO, but they are the only infantry unit in the codex that carries something more powerful than a Str 3 attack in CC. if they didn't have Rage they might be worth it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There are very few armies that depend completely upon power weapons (I'm not convinced there are actually any that depend at least 50-100% upon them). Not to mention lightning claws count as power weapons, not power fists.

It'd nerf some armies, buff some, space marines are noticeable what with being at least half the group.

To be honest, it's kinda needed, 2+ armor is on it's own, completely worthless (Good example, Mega-Nobz). With this change we might finally see 2+ units that aren't just assault terminators or anything with a 3++ save.

I for one fear the power of a necron lord retinue, 3 of them with an overlord for about 300 points, each with 2+, MSS, and warscythe? That will put the fear of the Necrons into the heart of any elite based assault unit.


2+ armor save is already good on its own. Not every army has units full of power weapons or a crapload fo AP 2 shhoting weapons. Sisters lack those things for sure. Evsicerators are not the answer people think they are. They are slow weapons and are too expensive (it cost more than a Repentia to take as an add-on) and a stupid move to take on any of the codex's IC's. Who wants a badly armored low Toughness IC (and without eternal warrior to boot) that strikes at initiative 1? As I said though I can't see how this is not a nerf to Sisters unless they get a buff to shooting. They have S 3 power weapons, the random eviscerator, or a close combat weapon. That's it. Oh and i thougth Lightning Claws were going to be AP 2 according to the rumors.

Only a unit of Repentia could capitalize on them, but they are not durable agsint even the humble lasgun. A guard squad of equal cost will pound them flat before they get anywhere. Nor do the Repentia have a vehicle to get them to where they need to be that has an assualt ramp so they can't race up and assault someone they choose unless you hodl them in reserve. They are kind of lackluster for the points 10 models cost. For nearly the same amount of points I can field 5 death company with power swords and botl pistols and they will be nearly as killy and not strike last and can take a transport of their own.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/07 21:30:05


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Sisters lack those things for sure.


Rending Heavy Bolters, AP1 D6 S8 missiles, tons of melta, I have an SoB army I occasionally play, the day I rely on power weapons (With the exception of my nicely under-costed Uriah Bomb squad), is pretty much nil, I also use repentia myself, but it's mostly a fluffy choice. Yes one lacks decent power weapons otherwise in this army, but let's honestly face it, with the removal of the better powers from the old Witch Hunters dex they've lost any capability outside of the Conclave squads to do melee in any sort of manageable fashion. For example, the horrid Celestians, which are as expensive as the Chaos Space Marine unit and supposed to be our "elite melee SoB unit", which is already bad enough given costs, but it's still with the standard Sisters of Battle Statline Oh goody it can buff itself up to S4!

The SoB mini-dex is not something I try to count in balance anymore, it's got so many horrible decisions and costs in it that I try to ignore it unless I actively feel the need to play it.

Oh and i thought Lightning Claws were going to be AP 2 according to the rumors.


There was someone who posted up what he "THINKS" might happen, not according to the actual rumors.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 09:16:58


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


So SoB are basically tau without the overwhelming fire power... That aside they could use a real dex of their own.

Anyway, I think if this does get into the BrB then we are going to be seeing a lot more 2+ saves on the battlefields of the 41st millenium. Not necessarily an increase of PF and CF and the like but an increase in number of termies and their equivalents. It may become standard to see squads of 10 instead of 5. A very shrewd marketing move by GW perhaps?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 09:43:42


Post by: monkeypuzzle


I don't mind this change - terminator armour is supposed to be the best save anyway. The important thing is that tyranid boneswords are NOT power weapons they just ignore armour saves which makes me so happy. I would be very unimpressed if my bonesword/lashwhip warriors suddenly weren't able to eat anything short of a dreadnought in combat. Sorry terminators you still strike after me and are still doomed to die.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 15:28:31


Post by: ZebioLizard2


So SoB are basically tau without the overwhelming fire power... That aside they could use a real dex of their own.


Unlike tau they are still competitive..It's just you have a very, very limited build, it's like being updated made them a 4th edition dex rather than a 5th.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 15:30:55


Post by: Kain


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
So SoB are basically tau without the overwhelming fire power... That aside they could use a real dex of their own.


Unlike tau they are still competitive..It's just you have a very, very limited build, it's like being updated made them a 4th edition dex rather than a 5th.

This, the sisters can be nasty, but if you stray from a very set in stone build you are probably going to crumble like a house of cards. Emperor help you if the other guy's tailoring.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 18:36:22


Post by: acekevin8412


The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 18:39:47


Post by: BlapBlapBlap


acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

If it wasn't 4th Edition...

Fish o' Fury and Falcon Spam anyone?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 20:40:33


Post by: ZebioLizard2


BlapBlapBlap wrote:
acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.

If it wasn't 4th Edition...

Fish o' Fury and Falcon Spam anyone?


4th edition was good for the 4th edition dex's, to say the least, both got hit hard when skimmers and glancing stopped working well.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 20:57:20


Post by: Nalathani


It seems to me that most people talking about 2+ armor assume if you don't have powerfists or AP2, they are invincible.

Ask an Ork or Nid player how they take care of 2+ armor. Make them take 15 saves, they're going to fail a few.

If you are taking power weapons specifically to take out 2+ armor, you'll just have to change your lists to more Dakka. Throw out tons of 4, 5 str wounds and make them roll dice.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 21:00:08


Post by: Grey Templar


That is one possable effect. Shift the meta towards more shooting to deal with 2+ armor.

2+ armor gets better in an assault, and as a result people gravitate towards what has always been its weakness(rolling lots of saves)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 22:58:54


Post by: loota boy


acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.


Orks have aged beautifully. You can run battlewagon brigade, kanwall, tide, and speed freaks all to decent effect.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 23:36:16


Post by: mwnciboo


loota boy wrote:
acekevin8412 wrote:The same goes for the Tau. They can be used. Except there is only one competitive, ie tournament, build that can be used, with difficulty and skill, to win.

Actually, I'm going to go out on a limb and say this cover almost all of the 4th edition codexes that aren't Marines.


Orks have aged beautifully. You can run battlewagon brigade, kanwall, tide, and speed freaks all to decent effect.


Got to agree, my next army is going to Ork's. I miss the more characterful days of 2nd edition, I always liked all the different clans especially the bad moons, unfortunately orks seem more generic now.

I also agree on the forcing as many saves as possible, on 2+ armour. Some armies can chuck out alot of lower level firepower (I'm thinking guard with Front rank fire, second rank fire). But one of the problems with this is that you are diverting your firepower and it is often inefficient use of this firepower that means other parts of the enemy army are unscathed as you try to pound Chaos terminators or Obliterators or whatever. Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/08 23:40:46


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.


AP2 weapons handle that nicely, not to mention they can have only one in a 5 man squad.

Chaos Terminators Suck, I will say this now, having them buffed would be quite a treat.

Edit: I just now realized this would nerf Longfang spam as it'd mean that their AP3 wouldn't be as effective. Even if it'd still be good against mech.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 00:33:05


Post by: DaKKaLAnce


Some weapons do say" No armor saves can be taken against this weapon" I believe most of the newer codexs word it like that(DE,Necrons,GK,etc.)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 00:35:14


Post by: Grey Templar


There are a few weapons that say that.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 16:43:06


Post by: loota boy


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.


AP2 weapons handle that nicely, not to mention they can have only one in a 5 man squad.

Chaos Terminators Suck, I will say this now, having them buffed would be quite a treat.

Edit: I just now realized this would nerf Longfang spam as it'd mean that their AP3 wouldn't be as effective. Even if it'd still be good against mech.


How does it hurt longfangs? This would make it harder to kill terminators and similiar units, which longfangs couldn't kill anyways.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 17:03:35


Post by: Grey Templar


If anything it would make longfangs with Lascannons more valuable.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 18:00:57


Post by: ZebioLizard2


loota boy wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Sometimes when fighting DA Deathwing you don't really have much choice, and the addition of an Apocathary in Terminator armour compounds this makes even shooting to them death a difficult proposition.


AP2 weapons handle that nicely, not to mention they can have only one in a 5 man squad.

Chaos Terminators Suck, I will say this now, having them buffed would be quite a treat.

Edit: I just now realized this would nerf Longfang spam as it'd mean that their AP3 wouldn't be as effective. Even if it'd still be good against mech.


How does it hurt longfangs? This would make it harder to kill terminators and similiar units, which longfangs couldn't kill anyways.


Because it'd mean they'd have to upgrade on up to a few lascannons, where they aren't exactly as cheap as they were before with missles.

Not exactly a nerf, but hey.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 18:22:58


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).

But the point I wanted to make was that it appears the only logical solution to 2+ saves will be AP2 ranged weapons. No longer will that tactical sergeant be a termie killer with his PW, he'll just have to take a PF instead now....


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 18:33:11


Post by: Grey Templar


Its fine by me, I always liked my Tactical terminators anyway.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 21:04:46


Post by: ZebioLizard2


I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).


Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 21:11:35


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).


Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.


Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/09 21:24:50


Post by: ZebioLizard2


AlmightyWalrus wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).


Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.


Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?


Yes, considering the discussion at hand is how power weapons will not be affecting AP2 in the newer version, this will change their dynamic against said unit of terminators from TEQ killer to MEQ killer instead.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/10 12:52:37


Post by: terranarc


AlmightyWalrus wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).


Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.


Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?


Well, DCA aren't an elusive hard counter to terminators. Anything with power weapons that aren't I1 are fatal to tactical terminators these days and that's a no-no. 2+ just isn't that great in close combat or ranged anymore.

Personally, I would LOVE to see an across-the-board nerf for GKs. Ap3 weapons everyone for free is still extremely cheesy but at least you won't see GK troops gently caressing terminators and 2+ to death now.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/10 16:03:30


Post by: Jidmah


Just thinking, this would make MANz a hard-counter to Paladins, wouldn't it? All those NFW (except the hammer) would bounce of mega-armour, while powerklaws still ignore tactical dreadnought armor and cause instant death to them.

Me likes.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/10 16:49:24


Post by: loota boy


Jidmah wrote:Just thinking, this would make MANz a hard-counter to Paladins, wouldn't it? All those NFW (except the hammer) would bounce of mega-armour, while powerklaws still ignore tactical dreadnought armor and cause instant death to them.

Me likes.


Dat'll teach da shiny gitz!


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/10 21:06:30


Post by: orkdestroyer1


master crafted power weapons should be AP 2


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/10 21:31:50


Post by: Mad4Minis


captain collius wrote:Seriously this is a bad Idea it means prettymuch anything going against draigo wing or Deathwing is up a creek of feces with no paddle.

the only army that can have powerweapons evrywhere is gk if you wann fix the problem NERF THEM.


I like it for just that reason...since Im working on a counts-as Deathwing army, and my first squad of stormbolter terminators has chainfists.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/10 21:52:59


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


ZebioLizard2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).


Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.


Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?


Yes, considering the discussion at hand is how power weapons will not be affecting AP2 in the newer version, this will change their dynamic against said unit of terminators from TEQ killer to MEQ killer instead.


The point I was making is that you CAN make good Chaos Terminator squads, so no they don't suck. YES there will always be a counter to anything in 40k, but that is the nature of the beast. I personally don't like the idea of AP values on power weapons, save modifiers would be better, but if it is the case then it's time to find new ways of dealing with 2+ armour as power weapons will no longer be viable.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 00:08:26


Post by: ZebioLizard2


JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I've gotta say Chaos Termies aren't that bad...
5 Champs, Icon of Khorne, LC...
60pts a model but 6 attacks each on the charge (30 attacks from a 5 man squad!), they'll shred anything other than vehicles (and then you change 1 set of claws for a reaper/cf combo).


Which can be killed easily a cheap DCA squad before it can even attack.

a 10 squad will kill 4.5 before they even attack, even less than that should your luck rolling 5++ be poor, and if they charge you are pretty much dead.

So even a small 5 squad of DCA will do enough damage to cost you 2-3 terminators.


Oh look, a hard counter to Terminators will kill Terminators. Who would've thunk it?


Yes, considering the discussion at hand is how power weapons will not be affecting AP2 in the newer version, this will change their dynamic against said unit of terminators from TEQ killer to MEQ killer instead.


The point I was making is that you CAN make good Chaos Terminator squads, so no they don't suck. YES there will always be a counter to anything in 40k, but that is the nature of the beast. I personally don't like the idea of AP values on power weapons, save modifiers would be better, but if it is the case then it's time to find new ways of dealing with 2+ armour as power weapons will no longer be viable.


Pretty much, I was using the standard of a cheap unit that could overtake it. If I really wanted to I could've said Gray Knights and be done with it, as you've practically spent a ton on something that isn't viable at all against the army style.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 00:13:34


Post by: -Loki-


orkdestroyer1 wrote:master crafted power weapons should be AP 2


Kind of a small impact change, since master crafted power weapons are only seen on characters now.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 02:24:28


Post by: Buttons


I personally feel like 2+ saves are a bit meaningless, woohoo you are better against high AP weapons, but outside of single unit weapons (like hot-shot lasguns, sternguard ammo, or vespid guns) whatever penetrates a 3+ save generally penetrates a 2+ save. Guard has exceptions like the basilisk and LRBT, but even then the Demolisher and executioner kill both, as do plasma and melta weapons in all their forms.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 02:35:23


Post by: DeathReaper


-Loki- wrote:
orkdestroyer1 wrote:master crafted power weapons should be AP 2


Kind of a small impact change, since master crafted power weapons are only seen on characters now.

And Sanguinary Guard. The Glaive Encarmines they carry are master crafted power weapons.

Also some GK Paladins and some other GK units can have Master crafted power weapons.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 03:24:14


Post by: loota boy


Ehh, i can see AP2 on relic blades, but probably not on master crafted, unless master crafted gets a jump in points.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 17:47:23


Post by: labmouse42


This would also give a slight boost to the Tyrannofex.
Since it has a 2+ save, it would gets its save from force weapons, making it much harder for GK to kill.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 20:31:09


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


Over all 2+ armour isn't a protect all save any more. People have found ways to counter it, the most popular one WAS a power weapon in hand or a plasmagun over shoulder. If this change is about making 2+ saves viable again I think they are looking at it the wrong way, lowering power weapons means people will just take Power Fists instead or just take plasma weapons in droves and not bother with assaults. I've thought about my suggestion previously about being able to use both an armour AND an invulnerable save, simply make the secondary save never better than a 5+ meaning 1/3 of all failed 2+ saves still survive...

EDIT: But then again power weapons would still just slice right through termies with ease... hmmmm.... more thought required...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/11 21:15:58


Post by: Kain


Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 04:31:22


Post by: DogOfWar


Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.
Agreed.

And it's not like he's a walk in the park right now.

DoW


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 04:54:06


Post by: Grey Templar


Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.



Draigo?

it makes anything with a SS fething annoying , Draigo's just an afterthought.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:13:13


Post by: labmouse42


JbR of the Endless Spire wrote: people will just take Power Fists instead or just take plasma weapons in droves and not bother with assaults..
Currently people don't take PWs in their squads and usually take PFs instead. Think about it -- how often does your PF die in a squad before it can swing? What value does that PW and extra attack give -- especially if your wounding on a 4+.

What this change hits hardest are squads with power weapons as default weapons. Suddenly DCAs have a hard counter and can't kill every unit in assault like they could. GK purifiers/strike squads can no longer just assault their way out terminators.

It also effects ICs. PW wielding ICs can hit a wall when facing terminator armor. This gives a very strong advantage to models like Calgar or Abbadon who are wielding PFs in assault, and hurts ICs like draigo who are not.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:21:29


Post by: King Pariah


Anyone have any idea what the AP value would be for Monstrous Creatures? If someone already posted it, I apologize.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:24:58


Post by: English Assassin


Well, present rumour claims that power weapons will be AP2 in any case. If that turns out to be correct, this discussion will, regrettably, have been academic, and Terminators without Storm Shields will still be suboptimal choices.

Ah well... back to Space Hulk.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:25:19


Post by: Grey Templar


Probably still just "No armor saves allowed" like they are now.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:30:44


Post by: King Pariah


Grey Templar wrote:Probably still just "No armor saves allowed" like they are now.


Okay, thanks.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:49:59


Post by: Grugknuckle


KingDeath wrote:It is an unnecessary spacemarine buff.


Agreed. But the other rumor is that a squad that gets charged will get to shoot at the assaulting unit before the CC happens. That could (maybe?) help balance this a little bit.


AP values for close combat weapons are almost as bad. Marines are more or less save, not much will change for them. Orks and other thinly armoured cc units might lose their entire armoursave. One could argue that losing a 5+ or a 6+ save isn't that much, but 33%/ 16% more casualties in cc for the affected units is a definitive and most unwelcome nerf.


Agreed again. If something as common and benign as say a chainsword suddenly becomes AP5, then that's a HUGE nerf to swarm armies like Orks and Nids. But is that really going to happen? Because now every MEQ player is going to have to chop up their marines to add / remove the chainswords.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, how do TH?SS get nerfed?

By these rules, THs are still ignoring all armor saves(as they follow the rules for PFs) and PWs arn't ignoring their 2+ armor all the time anymore.


If anything, it makes the storm shields less necessary in CC.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:55:28


Post by: Gorechild


Apparently the AP3 thing is incorrect. CC weapons will be getting an AP value, but all standard power weapons are AP2, basically the same as they are now.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 14:57:23


Post by: Grugknuckle


Fetterkey wrote:
TH/SS Terminators get nerfed in that "Tactical" Terminators become better by comparison-- when you no longer have to worry about power weapons, exchanging your storm shield for a storm bolter and the opportunity to take Cyclone launchers or Assault Cannons may in fact be worth it, whereas now it's usually a risky move at best because normal Terminators are very vulnerable to assault units that can use power weapons to kill them before they get a chance to swing their power fists.


That's not a "nerf". The terminators all get better whether they are armed with TH/SS or with SB/PF. I think what you meant is that now you have to buy more minis to make more termies with the "better" options. My advice ... magnets.



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 16:49:26


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Gorechild wrote:Apparently the AP3 thing is incorrect. CC weapons will be getting an AP value, but all standard power weapons are AP2, basically the same as they are now.


Alot of that stuff seems to be from the Heritichammer edition that was claimed to be false...How true can one claim it to be now? Because if this is true...


When you shoot you roll to hit depending on the speed of your target. Fast vehicles you always need a 6.


Because if true, I need to hide a few friends BA tanks...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 18:08:27


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


I have to disagree with you there labmouse42, I tend to find it is more common for troop units to have power weapons on their leaders than power fists, this is because troop units tend to be aimed at shooting rather than assault. Power fists tend to end up in assault orientated units. As an example assault squads with PFs and tactical squads with PWs. I know that there are armies that are exceptions to this, but that is because those armies are largely assault orientated over shooting. This, however, is all relative to what happens in the new BrB. If they have differing AP values then its likely that PFs will become more common than PWs as their combat value would be diminished. The idea behind power anything is to deal with armour in close combat, reducing its effectiveness will just increase armour survivability in cc. Not something that needs to change that much imo.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 18:19:45


Post by: ZebioLizard2


JbR of the Endless Spire wrote:I have to disagree with you there labmouse42, I tend to find it is more common for troop units to have power weapons on their leaders than power fists, this is because troop units tend to be aimed at shooting rather than assault. Power fists tend to end up in assault orientated units. As an example assault squads with PFs and tactical squads with PWs. I know that there are armies that are exceptions to this, but that is because those armies are largely assault orientated over shooting. This, however, is all relative to what happens in the new BrB. If they have differing AP values then its likely that PFs will become more common than PWs as their combat value would be diminished. The idea behind power anything is to deal with armour in close combat, reducing its effectiveness will just increase armour survivability in cc. Not something that needs to change that much imo.


I have to disagree with you as well, I primarily see mostly powerfists for the S8 potential (Potential to escape assault walkers, instant kill IC's, 2+ on MC's) The AP2 potential is less viable than the strength of the weapon itself, and to keep strong things from trying to attack it. Power weapons tend to be seen only in area's where they cannot take otherwise (SoB for example)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 18:22:11


Post by: labmouse42


How many PWs you see in TAC squads really depends on your meta, I guess.
Around here I see PFs or nothing at all in them. I almost never see PWs in squads here for MEQ.
That's not the case for for blob squads or DE of course


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 18:35:52


Post by: mwnciboo


I think PF's will still be the optimal choice, for a S4 model. PW's are great and I cannot see a nerf coming for this, the current CC system is actually very good, I can see some changes to the dynamic prior to CC e.g nerfs or buffs to units prior to, on the or during the charge and the same for the unit receiving the charge. If it ain't broke, why change it? The Rapid fire, and Close Quarter Battle needs a re-think, but CC should stay the same. Shooting shouldn't be the thing that happens before you get to chop a unit to bits, the current dynamic in shooting is not representative of the firepower available in the 41st Millenium, where 20mm rapid fire rocket launchers are considered small arms.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 19:43:28


Post by: captain collius


Grey Templar wrote:
Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.



Draigo?

it makes anything with a SS fething annoying , Draigo's just an afterthought.


Storm shield army I love you.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 20:36:43


Post by: SickSix


I know that fluff cannot be translated to the table top in a lot of cases. However it as always bothered me how easily terminators can be dealt with be lots of armies. Terminators are the pinnacle of any SM chapter.

I just felt that a lot of times they are too squishy for their point cost. Especially when loaded in a Landraider.



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/12 20:52:35


Post by: terranarc


Gorechild wrote:Apparently the AP3 thing is incorrect. CC weapons will be getting an AP value, but all standard power weapons are AP2, basically the same as they are now.

Also claims that shooting and assaulting has been reversed which contradicts what BoW has said. It'd be a matter of BoW's credibility VS that guy.
I feel like that guy JUST read the pancake edition and thinks its the real deal.

Regarding the default PF on sarges, its true that if you're going to upgrade your sergeant, 99 times out of 98, it's a powerfist BUT consider what challenges will do to that. A power sword sarge with 3 attacks is going to instant kill a powerfist sarge before he even gets to swing. A bit OT but that just came to mind since people were talking about PFs in squads.

So, to not get slaughtered in a challenge, you might take PW+Pistol instead of default PF which will leave you vulnerable to 2+ and no way to reliably pop vehicles or dreads.
I like it. No more obvious CC upgrade choice.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 13:35:32


Post by: Kain


DogOfWar wrote:
Kain wrote:Being able to take both saves would take Draigo and make him the most annoying as all feth thing to kill ever.
Agreed.

And it's not like he's a walk in the park right now.

DoW
And god help you if he's in cover and has an apothecary. Enjoy getting past four saves.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 14:28:00


Post by: Bluewulf


Just thought of this ap3 PW = you get FNP save.......


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 14:29:52


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


labmouse42 wrote:How many PWs you see in TAC squads really depends on your meta, I guess.


Yes I suppose thats true, after all it depends on what your fighting with or likely to come up against that determines what weaponry you would take. Good point.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:I have to disagree with you as well, I primarily see mostly powerfists for the S8 potential (Potential to escape assault walkers, instant kill IC's, 2+ on MC's) The AP2 potential is less viable than the strength of the weapon itself, and to keep strong things from trying to attack it. Power weapons tend to be seen only in area's where they cannot take otherwise (SoB for example)


I find it that the cheaper squad would have the cheaper option as they are ever so slightly more expendable, however, the reasons you listed to take a powerfist there do largely revolve around it being an AP2 weapon, would you still take one if it didn't have that AP? It would no longer have an effect on 2+ saves. The same as the proposed AP values for power weapons. Simply put a lot of things in 2+ armour have a PF, or race equivalent, as standard or as optional. And the most common counter to them was a PW striking before they did. The suggested changes would remove that altogether, meaning there would no longer be any quick solutions to defeat termies and the like.

After actually thinking about it over all you may be right about the numbers. I guess it depends on if you face a lot of horde or TEQ opponents as a PW would be the better counter to both of these situations. Alternatively if you face a lot more MEQ and MCs PF are the more logical choice.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 19:29:54


Post by: ZebioLizard2




I find it that the cheaper squad would have the cheaper option as they are ever so slightly more expendable, however, the reasons you listed to take a powerfist there do largely revolve around it being an AP2 weapon, would you still take one if it didn't have that AP? It would no longer have an effect on 2+ saves.


AP2 doesn't do much against walkers I find, though against MC's I guess it could work at least, but I mostly take it because at one time my meta in my area was saturated with a ton of walkers (meleenaughts, deffdreads and kans, and the like) getting tied up against one is quite annoying when I want some mobility to say the least, and the PF was a threat to keep them away from certain squads.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 21:41:55


Post by: G00fySmiley


SickSix wrote:I know that fluff cannot be translated to the table top in a lot of cases. However it as always bothered me how easily terminators can be dealt with be lots of armies. Terminators are the pinnacle of any SM chapter.

I just felt that a lot of times they are too squishy for their point cost. Especially when loaded in a Landraider.



how? they are still space marines just in a fancy better suite of armor. they can take a lissile to the face and still live. the only way to really overrun them is ap1 / 2 fire (which should do it considering these are meant to oftem melt through tanks), mass amounss of high initiative power weapons (designed to slice through any armor like the tani tank ranged) or fists (see previous but add in doubling strength) which not alot of armies can pull off. the other way is mass fire/mass melee. it doesn't matter how tought they are. if it sinfantry and it gets charged by 30 orks w/ nob and pk somethign is going to hit a vital spot or anough hits to the same spot ... or just plain be overpowered down and stripped of the armor, or in mass fire cases a pwoer blob shoots 120 shots ... somthing is going to hit a vital point

I've fielded a blob of 10 termies in a blood angels army w/ a sang priest in terminator armor plus a librarian in tremy armor... they took forever to die but with enough lascannon

i've also seen a vanilla marines player field 10 assault termies w/ lysander. I beat em eventually with orks but it took 2 vollies of 30 boys and ghazthraka to do it and really only ghaz was still useful


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 21:46:32


Post by: Daemonhammer


* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1


What makes a chainfist better then a power weapon at piercing Armour?
AFAIK Power weapons are better at armor piercing fluff-wise.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 21:47:48


Post by: rigeld2


Daemonhammer wrote:
* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1


What makes a chainfist better then a power weapon at piercing Armour?
AFAIK Power weapons are better at armor piercing fluff-wise.

Chainfists get 2d6 to pen a vehicle, so it makes sense they'd pierce better than a Power Fist (since they're a power fist + chainsaw).


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 22:27:17


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Daemonhammer wrote:
* Power Weapons AP3
* Power Fists AP2
* Chainfists AP1


What makes a chainfist better then a power weapon at piercing Armour?
AFAIK Power weapons are better at armor piercing fluff-wise.


Chain fists are designed to carve through the armour plates of battle tanks, how much more armour piercing do you get?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/13 22:57:30


Post by: oldone


Well if this becomes a issue i can see this happening
space marines: Can i just suggest plasma pistols? really if pistols stay CCW then it's fairly easy to see that this is the answer to terminators in CC for some armies, i mean jump packs can take 3 of the buggers and get a I10 strike (which in the way it was worded wouldn't be at ap2) so they could force a lot of saves / stop them taking said save. Space wolves i can for see either TWC or wolf guard with SS + mark of the wulfen / plasma pistols?
tyranids: well depends on wording, if bone swords ignore Armour saves it will be good news =) but if not well then either genestealers (rending has actually already got ap 2 ) / MCs or use Doom of mala'tal and suck them dry =P
guard: shoot them and hope to god they don't survive
tau: see above =P
eldar: well if witchblades change it could give you a way, if not.....shoot the buggers and wait for a new codex
deamons: slaanesh stuff (rending ) / MC / mass fire power (horrors)
dark eldar: wych are still brilliant making them be stuck in CC / dark lance to death
orks : same as now, although they make burna's worse despite not really a "competitive" choice.
SoB: melta pistols form the jump packs (never ever played this army so don't know much about them)
necrons: scarabs to get rid of the armour save / wraiths to rend

Did i miss anything?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/14 02:45:11


Post by: imweasel


I love this thread,. 8 needless pages discussing a rumor that has...get this...been killed by another rumor.

90% of this gak is simply that...gak.

Please continue.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/14 02:46:20


Post by: Grey Templar


We're just killing time till the real stuff comes out. Besides, its fun to argue on "TE INTERNETZ!!!"


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/14 20:07:57


Post by: ZebioLizard2


imweasel wrote:I love this thread,. 8 needless pages discussing a rumor that has...get this...been killed by another rumor.

90% of this gak is simply that...gak.

Please continue.


Everything is needless, we're being entertained by thoughts on things.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/27 17:36:34


Post by: Darklight


AP3 on Power & Force Weapons confirmed here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-20gh91Ba8J4/T-nRIJxrvWI/AAAAAAAAGRo/wTQOz4g-Kyk/s1600/werwer.jpg

My post if you want to discuss further: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/457792.page

I think this is a terrible move for the game. Yes, it will nerf GK, but it will create another major problem; Terminators.
Armies like Daemons, DE, Eldar, & Necrons rely on power weapons in assault. Now they will just bounce of Terminators.

I also think this fails from a fluff perspectice. I have read most of the Black Library books, and Power Weapons pierce right thru
Terminator armor.

My sense is, this is GW's way of dealing with the GK problem, but it is only a band aid solution. It is going to create bigger issues.

The only real hope for most Xeno armies, are good FAQ's post 6th release that rescope many of the weapons to AP2.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/27 17:48:10


Post by: andrewm9


I'm very concerned for Sisters armies in CC. Given a distinct lack of lots of AP 1 and AP 2 weapons as well as overwhelming fire in shooting I think they will be in real trouble against Terminators of all stripes. Before the counter was Death Cult Assassins which use AP 3 weapons (power swords) since they are modeled no other way. I'm not really into custom making death Cultists with otehr weapons. Perhaps though, Repentia given the change to Rage and Feel No Pain may end up being more useful than Death Cultists.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/27 18:54:32


Post by: King Pariah


Darklight wrote:AP3 on Power & Force Weapons confirmed here: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-20gh91Ba8J4/T-nRIJxrvWI/AAAAAAAAGRo/wTQOz4g-Kyk/s1600/werwer.jpg

My post if you want to discuss further: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/457792.page

I think this is a terrible move for the game. Yes, it will nerf GK, but it will create another major problem; Terminators.
Armies like Daemons, DE, Eldar, & Necrons rely on power weapons in assault. Now they will just bounce of Terminators.

I also think this fails from a fluff perspectice. I have read most of the Black Library books, and Power Weapons pierce right thru
Terminator armor.

My sense is, this is GW's way of dealing with the GK problem, but it is only a band aid solution. It is going to create bigger issues.

The only real hope for most Xeno armies, are good FAQ's post 6th release that rescope many of the weapons to AP2.


Warscythes are not "Power Weapons" and ignore ALL armor saves.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/27 19:19:39


Post by: Compel


Surely Eldar won't hurt 'too' badly. - I'm sure the Banshee Executioners will be AP 2 to 1. Plus the striking scorpion exarch can take a power fist, no?



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/27 22:17:34


Post by: DarknessEternal


andrewm9 wrote:I'm very concerned for Sisters armies in CC. Given a distinct lack of lots of AP 1 and AP 2 weapons as well as overwhelming fire in shooting

Are we talking about the same Sisters that spam dozens of meltaguns, rending heavy bolters, and exorcist launchers?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/27 23:42:19


Post by: Happyjew


Grey Templar wrote:We're just killing time till the real stuff comes out. Besides, its fun to argue on "TE INTERNETZ!!!"


It's pronounced "Teh Interwebz". Please get it right next time.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 00:23:00


Post by: ZebioLizard2


DarknessEternal wrote:
andrewm9 wrote:I'm very concerned for Sisters armies in CC. Given a distinct lack of lots of AP 1 and AP 2 weapons as well as overwhelming fire in shooting

Are we talking about the same Sisters that spam dozens of meltaguns, rending heavy bolters, and exorcist launchers?


Think he meant purely in melee..And than he's forgotten Repentia, oh and don't forget the fact flamers in the army give D3 in overwatch, along with the fact we have plenty of ways of getting preferred enemy now so shooting will be better too.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 00:30:36


Post by: Grey Templar


its not like Sisters relied on PWs for their anti-2+ armor stuff. Its those armies that got nerfed.

3+ armor hasn't changed really. It still gets ignored by power weapons.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 02:07:36


Post by: TedNugent


In all likelihood, you're not going to see very much AP3. The opportunity cost associated it will be too substantial. With armor saves less than 3+ it will be seen as too extravagant. With 3+ saves it will be seen as being important, but not crucial for killing MEQs and the opportunity cost attached to only being able to kill the MEQ components of Marine armies will reduce their representation overall.

So for the most part you're going to be dealing with Axes and Fists along with chainswords. So either armor saves or they're striking at I1. If you play it right at I4 you might come out on top.

I think that this is both a good change for Terminators, who now keep their saves until I1, and Marine armies, who will see fewer Power Weapons, both due to the cost attached to Power Fists and due to the reduced usefulness of Power Weapons.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 04:42:18


Post by: Noir Eternal


Redbeard wrote:I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.


Even though its not a rumour now, 100x this is how I wish it was.

Just looking at the way powerweapons are changing, it seems like taking a fist is a no brainer any time its an option.

You get x2S and +1 AP at the cost of being I1, which, now that only few weapons can harm the 2+ save in CC is now hardly a big trade off.

Edit: I am also guessing that AP3 will not be seen often in CC if there is an option to take AP2. AP3 is still twice as easy to take down with tons of attacks. Why not take every opportunity to have AP2 whenever possible
And I'm sorry, but Hammer's and Fists are Blunt weapons, why should they be better at "piercing" armour than a weapon with a sharp edge? Maybe I am thinking about this too much but it just seems wrong.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 08:10:08


Post by: Compel


Well, power fists are massive hydraulic fists that pull apart the armour, using a massive energy field.

Most of the damage from the Hammer comes from the uber powerful energy field, no? That when it strikes something creates a massive kaboom that sounds like well, a crack of thunder.

A lot of it is less about the weapon design and more about their on board batteries / energy field production, I'd assume.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 12:16:19


Post by: Ovion


Noir Eternal wrote:
Redbeard wrote:I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.


Even though its not a rumour now, 100x this is how I wish it was.

Just looking at the way powerweapons are changing, it seems like taking a fist is a no brainer any time its an option.

You get x2S and +1 AP at the cost of being I1, which, now that only few weapons can harm the 2+ save in CC is now hardly a big trade off.

Edit: I am also guessing that AP3 will not be seen often in CC if there is an option to take AP2. AP3 is still twice as easy to take down with tons of attacks. Why not take every opportunity to have AP2 whenever possible
And I'm sorry, but Hammer's and Fists are Blunt weapons, why should they be better at "piercing" armour than a weapon with a sharp edge? Maybe I am thinking about this too much but it just seems wrong.


If you look at medievil weaponry, tactics, and fighting in melee, you'll notice that knights fighting with swords invaribly, could only penetrate each others armour on a thrusting charge (holding sword two handed, braced against body, run at enemy) otherwise you were aiming for the gaps in between the plate, hoping to penetrate the mail underneath.
A sharp edged sword is infact, rather bad at cutting through armour plate, it'll invaribly ding it, or simply slide / ricochet / bounce off as that's what armour is designed to do.

What they would take for dealing with other knights, is Maces, Morning Stars and Hammers. Various large, blunt, heavy weapons. The impact reverberates along the entire plate, rather than sliding off, enough force and the impact will dent, crater or rip open the plate it's hit. In the case of maces, the weight of the head would drive a large, heavy spike through the plate as well. This results in massive dents pressing into the flesh of the enemy, broken bones, broken skin etc.

An honourable mention goes out to Great Swords, which work on a similar principal, massive heavy strike. The point is the weight of the weapon, resulting in a HUGE impact hit. Also the big ole metal kite shields - knock down the opponent, then slam the tip down into their chest.

Of course the payoff is these weapons are slower, so Knights would often carry a sword AND a mace or something.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 15:57:30


Post by: Grey Templar


Yup, and two handed swords were often actually quite dull. You couldn't cut your hand on it even if you tried.

Sharp weapons are only good against relativly soft surfaces(flesh, leather, clothes)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 16:24:53


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


I remember watching a documentary about the medieval armour and weapons. They demonstrated using a dead pig and some chainmail how each weapon worked against a person's body. The sword sliced through the chainmail and caused a massive slash through the body. The axe only punctured the body slightly and wouldn't have caused enough damage to incapacitate the opponent, the hammer didn't break through the chainmail (only a few rings broke) but the pigs bones beneath were completely shattered. However, as Ovion has said plates of armour were a different matter, swords sliced into the plate but didn't completely go through the chainmail underneath. The axe largely went into the plate and mail but again didn't cause enough damage to incapacitate (it did about the same amount of damage to the body as the sword except for a crack in one rib) the hammer again proved the greater, though the plate and chainmail survived (though in pretty poor shape) the pigs body beneath was actually worse than before. The plate effectively acted like an amplifier for the hammer with the epicenter of the impact acting like an arrow and pierced the mail and skin beneath causing a wound, that if it didn't kill immediately, would be a very slow and excruciating death.

EDIT: Hence why Hammers and Fists are AP2...


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 16:35:43


Post by: Grey Templar


Chainmail is a funky armor as to its purpose.

It was really made to protect against small cuts and lacerations from glancing blows, not against a killing strike. It was so you didn't win the battle and later die from infection.

Chainmail is practically useless against piercing blows(or blows with enough force to break the rings)

Against a cutting action it is able to prevent it from penetrating, but against a sharpened point it breaks and allows entry.


Chainmail is supposed to be used along with a shield. The shield is the primary defensive implement while the chainmail protects against glancing blows that get through. If you have left your torso open to a strike you are dead no matter the weapon, the axe and mace will all stagger you enough for a second blow to come in and finish the job.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 16:52:14


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


They also demonstrated that the Longbow were the machine gun of their day. Very few things would actually stop an arrow, other than a shield, and even that was dubious at times with the arrows piercing 6" through (though that was a close range shot) not great for the holding arm some times...

EDIT: Anyway the point was that plates of armour could be defeated by any weapon BUT the weapon with the highest success rate was a blunt weapon.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 16:59:52


Post by: Grey Templar


oddly enough, Plate armor is quite good at stopping bodkin arrows. But when fired in massive quantities they will find the few weaknesses there are.

French Knights at Agincourt, their armor actually would reflect some arrows downwards into their crotch. so some of them found they were suffering million dollar wounds and were now stuck to their saddles. Most of the casualities amoung the knights were not from arrow wounds but from drowning in the muddy field they charged accross. They were either knocked off their horse by the deluge of arrows or their horse was killed and they ended up face down in the mud.



The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 17:43:06


Post by: Kaldor


Grey Templar wrote:oddly enough, Plate armor is quite good at stopping bodkin arrows. But when fired in massive quantities they will find the few weaknesses there are.

French Knights at Agincourt, their armor actually would reflect some arrows downwards into their crotch. so some of them found they were suffering million dollar wounds and were now stuck to their saddles. Most of the casualities amoung the knights were not from arrow wounds but from drowning in the muddy field they charged accross. They were either knocked off their horse by the deluge of arrows or their horse was killed and they ended up face down in the mud.



Actually, most of the casualties among the knights were when Henry executed his prisoners. The number of knights killed in battle was laughably low, their armour offering excellent protection.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 20:12:48


Post by: Darklight


Ovion wrote:
Noir Eternal wrote:
Redbeard wrote:I have to say, from a game design perspective, I really don't like this rumour. It doesn't make for interesting decisions, it makes for no-brainer choices. Let's say they made Power Weapons AP2, and Power Fists AP3. Now you have to make an actual choice. Do you want higher strength, for wounding monsters and vehicles, or do you want AP2, in case you're facing terminators. This is something people would need to think about.

AP2 powerfists and AP3 power weapons? No one will take a power weapon if a powerfist is an available choice.


Even though its not a rumour now, 100x this is how I wish it was.

Just looking at the way powerweapons are changing, it seems like taking a fist is a no brainer any time its an option.

You get x2S and +1 AP at the cost of being I1, which, now that only few weapons can harm the 2+ save in CC is now hardly a big trade off.

Edit: I am also guessing that AP3 will not be seen often in CC if there is an option to take AP2. AP3 is still twice as easy to take down with tons of attacks. Why not take every opportunity to have AP2 whenever possible
And I'm sorry, but Hammer's and Fists are Blunt weapons, why should they be better at "piercing" armour than a weapon with a sharp edge? Maybe I am thinking about this too much but it just seems wrong.


If you look at medievil weaponry, tactics, and fighting in melee, you'll notice that knights fighting with swords invaribly, could only penetrate each others armour on a thrusting charge (holding sword two handed, braced against body, run at enemy) otherwise you were aiming for the gaps in between the plate, hoping to penetrate the mail underneath.
A sharp edged sword is infact, rather bad at cutting through armour plate, it'll invaribly ding it, or simply slide / ricochet / bounce off as that's what armour is designed to do.

What they would take for dealing with other knights, is Maces, Morning Stars and Hammers. Various large, blunt, heavy weapons. The impact reverberates along the entire plate, rather than sliding off, enough force and the impact will dent, crater or rip open the plate it's hit. In the case of maces, the weight of the head would drive a large, heavy spike through the plate as well. This results in massive dents pressing into the flesh of the enemy, broken bones, broken skin etc.

An honourable mention goes out to Great Swords, which work on a similar principal, massive heavy strike. The point is the weight of the weapon, resulting in a HUGE impact hit. Also the big ole metal kite shields - knock down the opponent, then slam the tip down into their chest.

Of course the payoff is these weapons are slower, so Knights would often carry a sword AND a mace or something.


But, we are talking POWER swords here - think lightsaber. According to the fluff, they "melt" thru any armor they touch.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 20:33:59


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


Yes power weapons do bear a similarity to a lightsaber in effect, however, power weaponry essentially obliterates the atoms or molecules it comes into contact with (giving them their glow) the visual effect on armour would be like a lightsaber but the actual effect would be something like an atomic explosion (on a molecular level anyway)

EDIT: so the differing APs could be explained in a Star Wars scene... episode 1 cutting into the security doors on the droid ship. It gets tougher when the thicker doors activate.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 21:41:20


Post by: Ovion


We're also talking combat here, and armour that's been designed with this in mind.

There were weaves and armours (cortosis and things like it.) in the Star Wars universe that either deflected or slowed the Lightsabers down, cortosis weave swords could go toe-to-toe with a lightsaber, and Cortosis Weave shirts would deflect them. Pure Cortosis Alloy Armour while significantly less useful against blasters and vibroblades (near useless infact) and obscenely expensive and rare, rendered lightsabers practically useless.

I would liken this to various armours (specifically that of 2+ in this instance) being the sort built to withstand these impacts, or to disrupt the power-weapon field effect, reducing its ability to rend matter.

Power Fists / Hammers / etc, would have the significantly heavier nature of impact weapons designed to breach heavy armour, and the bonus of a significantly stronger field effect.

At least that's how I'm looking at it.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/28 22:45:20


Post by: JbR of the Endless Spire


Now thats a good way of looking at it. Consider it adopted.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/29 05:35:21


Post by: Dawnofthedoug


I think a crucial part of the ap for powerswords and powerfists will be how they play out in duels/challenges. Say your Tac squad with a sergent's fist charges a tac squad with a sergeant who has a power weapon. Now that powerfist is pretty scary and is gonna mess your marines up, but there's a way form stopping him from doing that. The power sword sergeant can challenge the powerfist sergeant to a duel, if the powerfist accepts it he will most likely loose the fight because the powersword strikes first, or the power fist can decline the challenge and just sit the fight out. Challenges will really change up the dynamic of powerfists/powerswords it seems.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/06/29 11:52:16


Post by: Squigsquasher


Meanwhile, Boneswords still ignore all armour saves. :p


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/02 17:47:04


Post by: Kammerlocher


Squigsquasher wrote:Meanwhile, Boneswords still ignore all armour saves. :p


Nope, look at page 61 under "Unusual Power Weapons". It still retains it's unique rules, but its an AP3 weapon. Same applies for Relic Blades, etc etc.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/02 17:53:20


Post by: Grey Templar


Boneswords arn't power weapons, they are CCWs that ignore armor saves.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/02 17:54:58


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Kammerlocher wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:Meanwhile, Boneswords still ignore all armour saves. :p


Nope, look at page 61 under "Unusual Power Weapons". It still retains it's unique rules, but its an AP3 weapon. Same applies for Relic Blades, etc etc.


Nids don't have weapons, they have upgrades, so Boneswords work just fine.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/02 17:58:35


Post by: Ovion


Kammerlocher wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:Meanwhile, Boneswords still ignore all armour saves. :p


Nope, look at page 61 under "Unusual Power Weapons". It still retains it's unique rules, but its an AP3 weapon. Same applies for Relic Blades, etc etc.


No, they still ignore Armour Saves.

See, Unusual Power Weapons refers to things like Dark Eldar Agonisers. Power Weapons with additional effects, so these are AP3.

HOWEVER, things like Boneswords, Warscythes, etc, ARE NOT Power Weapons. They simply Ignore Armour Saves.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/02 17:58:45


Post by: Fafnir


Kammerlocher wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:Meanwhile, Boneswords still ignore all armour saves. :p


Nope, look at page 61 under "Unusual Power Weapons". It still retains it's unique rules, but its an AP3 weapon. Same applies for Relic Blades, etc etc.


Or read the actual codex entry for the weapon. Boneswords are NOT power weapons, which means they are not "Unusual Power Weapons," which means they have no relation to that rule in the first place. They simply ignore armour saves, no need to worry about AP.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 11:32:41


Post by: Compel


Is the phrase Power <Noun> even mentioned in the nid codex?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 11:53:20


Post by: rigeld2


Not that I can think of.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 12:03:00


Post by: CthuluIsSpy


Fafnir wrote:
Kammerlocher wrote:
Squigsquasher wrote:Meanwhile, Boneswords still ignore all armour saves. :p


Nope, look at page 61 under "Unusual Power Weapons". It still retains it's unique rules, but its an AP3 weapon. Same applies for Relic Blades, etc etc.


Or read the actual codex entry for the weapon. Boneswords are NOT power weapons, which means they are not "Unusual Power Weapons," which means they have no relation to that rule in the first place. They simply ignore armour saves, no need to worry about AP.


I think you might have to. Are they AP1 (like the Warscythe), or AP2?


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 13:39:42


Post by: Formosa


boneswords are AP - at the mo as they have no AP and are not PW's, so yeah they ignore AS but get no bonus vs tanks (i.e +1 +2 etc.)


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 15:50:33


Post by: Grey Templar


Yup, they are simply CCWs that ignore armor saves.


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 16:02:56


Post by: Skriker


Noir Eternal wrote:You get x2S and +1 AP at the cost of being I1, which, now that only few weapons can harm the 2+ save in CC is now hardly a big trade off.

Edit: I am also guessing that AP3 will not be seen often in CC if there is an option to take AP2. AP3 is still twice as easy to take down with tons of attacks. Why not take every opportunity to have AP2 whenever possible
And I'm sorry, but Hammer's and Fists are Blunt weapons, why should they be better at "piercing" armour than a weapon with a sharp edge? Maybe I am thinking about this too much but it just seems wrong.


Buying the power fist is a no brainer as long as you have that 2+ save and given that the majority of units with that 2+ save already usually have power fists anyway not much is going to change. Yeah when you have that 2+ save in CC it is easy to sit back and wait for your I1 attack rolls. Of course *everyone else* without that 2+ is going to get beaten down while they wait for I1. People who are claiming powerswords are now never to be seen are just being foolish. They lost their impact on such a small percentage of likely enemy targets that it just doesn't matter. I know that not one of my regular opponents has any models with a 2+ save, so I have no need to swap things out for axes or power fists for any reason.

Of course worrying solely about CCW ignores all the other weapons armies can field that will deal just fine with those 2+ armored opponents without getting close enough for hand to hand attacks in the first place.

Skriker


The future of 2+ Armor save and AP3 power weapons @ 2012/07/03 16:19:46


Post by: DarthOvious


Formosa wrote:boneswords are AP - at the mo as they have no AP and are not PW's, so yeah they ignore AS but get no bonus vs tanks (i.e +1 +2 etc.)


If they are AP - then I take it that means you get a feel no pain save against them.