Hi Dakka!

There was a thread some time ago about exceptionally powerful beings in the standard 40k game. If they should be included or should stay unreachable / unimaginable in terms of their talents.
That got me wondering; how dangerous exactly are the Phoenix Lords? Are they kinda small Primarchs of the Eldar or not even close? It there any good source that tells how good they actually are?

As a bonus:
We know they have died several times and other Eldar took their place. Can you give me any example who managed to slain a Phoenix Lord (source would be great). Any spectacular feats they have accomplished (like Maugan Ra vs Tyranids)?


So, what does the scouter say about their power level?

Aside from the obvious over 9000 jokes, I would say they rank amongst the most skilled, if not most deadly, beings in the galaxy.
I know most of the named Dark Eldar characters, like I am fairly sure Vect has killed one 1v1.

Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

I think the term 'mini-primarch' would be pushing it. In my mind you have primarch level (a level currently unknown in the galaxy), EW special character powerhouse level (Ghazkul, Mephiston, Abbadon, Draigo, etc.) who represent legends beyond what mortals can typically achieve, and then the level that encompasses SC like Pheonix Lords, Chapter Masters, and the like. The apex of their race, but not legends whose names cross the galaxy.

riplikash wrote:I think the term 'mini-primarch' would be pushing it. In my mind you have primarch level (a level currently unknown in the galaxy), EW special character powerhouse level (Ghazkul, Mephiston, Abbadon, Draigo, etc.) who represent legends beyond what mortals can typically achieve, and then the level that encompasses SC like Pheonix Lords, Chapter Masters, and the like. The apex of their race, but not legends whose names cross the galaxy.

I agree to a point, but the Phoenix lords should be up there with Draigo mephy ... not abbdon or ghazy though as these 2 are THE big bad of there factions and while Draigo is coolio and what not, that mantle im afraid goes to papa smurf Calgar (fluff wise), its just because the Eldar dex is old though, when they get updated i imagine the P lords will be uber badass

Compel wrote:Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

Meh... considering a squad of Kasrkins and an IG captain managed to take out a Chaos dread by charging it...

Formosa wrote:

riplikash wrote:I think the term 'mini-primarch' would be pushing it. In my mind you have primarch level (a level currently unknown in the galaxy), EW special character powerhouse level (Ghazkul, Mephiston, Abbadon, Draigo, etc.) who represent legends beyond what mortals can typically achieve, and then the level that encompasses SC like Pheonix Lords, Chapter Masters, and the like. The apex of their race, but not legends whose names cross the galaxy.

I agree to a point, but the Phoenix lords should be up there with Draigo mephy ... not abbdon or ghazy though as these 2 are THE big bad of there factions and while Draigo is coolio and what not, that mantle im afraid goes to papa smurf Calgar (fluff wise), its just because the Eldar dex is old though, when they get updated i imagine the P lords will be uber badass

Yeah, the list was more to give an idea of 'galactic level threat' than actually make a list of power level.

That being said, I thought Draigo and Mephiston WERE supposed to be crazy, galactic level threats, and beyond Calgar? Draigo being the most legendary Chapter Master of a chapter that is supposed to be to marines what marines are to humans, capable of rampaging through the strongholds of chaos (as silly as much of it is), and Mephiston being some kind of pseudo daemonic warp entity beyond mortal ken?

I would definately say that the Phoenix Lords, fluffwise, rival the power of a Primarch. After all, they are tens of thousands of years old and have never truly 'died'; 20,000+ years of experience in devotion to one aspect of war tends to make a being into a literal Demi-God of war.

Having said that, I can see the argument that while Phoenix Lords are incredibly skilled and powerful individuals, the level of 'Primarch-esque' has largely been undefined throughout the game and as such, isn't really comparable to anything actually represented in the rules.

Overall though, with the current fluff available, I would put Phoenix Lords in the power-bracket of Greater Daemons, C'tan shards (to a lesser extent) and the Avatar.

Iranna.

I'd say that Pheonix Lords are pretty close to Primarch level in fluff terms. Look at Maugan Ra. It's already been touched on that he took on an entire Tyranid swarm single handedly and won (even without the bias of his own codex), he also wandered into the eye of terror and came back out again with a Craftworld. Just coming out of the Eye of Terror is a pretty mean feat.

Basically, this is why I'm asking.
Maugan Ra did those incredible, over the top things that even Draigo is jealous.
I've read somewhere (might have been a hogwash) that Baharroth is the fastest Eldar that ever existed. That is basically "WTF just happened?" to almost any living creature.
But there is so little in the lore about their actual accomplishments. At least the ones I've got my hands on. They are extremely powerful and ancient and skilled etc. but so are many things in wh40k.
They do apparently stroll around webway and EoT alone, are practically immortal, have several times the experience of any living being, their physique is way above already incredible fast race, but there are very few specifics about them (excluding maybe the already mentioned Ra). This makes it hard for me to put them in their right place on a food chain.

Macok wrote:
I've read somewhere (might have been a hogwash) that Baharroth is the fastest Eldar that ever existed. That is basically "WTF just happened?" to almost any living creature.

Lelith Hesperax and her Initiative 9 would like a word with you...

Iranna.

Fluff///tabletop, Iranna.

Eiríkr wrote:Fluff///tabletop, Iranna.

No no, rules =/= fluff.

Stats can be quite indicative of a character's abilities; especially those above 8.

Iranna.

sorry but no phoenix lord comes close to the primarchs in the fluff, they have a level of fluff armour that cannot be matched by any Xenos race lol

but this isnt about that anyway, i do agee that the P lords do need to become masters of there aspects (properly) id even go as far as something as broken as Maugan having a heavy 6 Eldar missile launcher... that would delete anything lol

Primarch > Phoenix Lord

Let me point this out: Lorgar, one of the less combat-oriented Primarchs, defeated an Avatar and Ann'grath on the same day, and only with 'serious' injuries (before anyone says 'It's BL, its not canon!', GW has since declared the HH novels canon). What more if I pit a combat-oriented Primarch, like Sanguinius or Angron, against a Phoenix Lord? Those two would destroy any Phoenix Lord sent against them. And Heaven forbid, I send Leman Russ. Knowing him, once the Phoenix Lord is dead, he'd probably destroy the armor. Normally I'm not fond of Russ or his douchebaggery, but in this case, it would be very interesting to see what happens when a Phoenix Lord's armor is destroyed. Those guys aren't represented on the TT simply because they'd tear through anything sent against them, except another Primarch or the Emperor.

There isn't enough fluff about Phoenix Lords to make the assumption that they are not as powerful as a primarch. They may very well be. I guess we may find out when the next codex comes out for Eldar.

So far the fluff has them doing things you would expect a Primarch to do and in some cases even more.

Maugan Ra going into the Eye of Terror, fighting innumerable daemons, finding his lost craftworld, leading them back out of the EOT and using them to stop Abbadon the Despoiler from gaining ultimate victory is a pretty primarchy thing to do...if...ya know...primarchs were Eldar.

Fluff wise Primarchs are not gods and Eldar Phoenix Lords ARE demi gods.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
Maugan Ra going into the Eye of Terror, fighting innumerable daemons, finding his lost craftworld, leading them back out of the EOT and using them to stop Abbadon the Despoiler from gaining ultimate victory is a pretty primarchy thing to do...if...ya know...primarchs were Eldar.

"Sakura, did you know Lorgar and the Word Bearers went into the Eye of Terror too?"
"I didn't know that!"

Fluff wise Primarchs are not gods and Eldar Phoenix Lords ARE demi gods.

Wrong. The funny thing is, while the Emperor kept on denying that He was a god, people kept referring to the Primarchs as demi-gods during the Crusade. The Emperor was a god in all but name - He just kept on denying it. That makes Primarchs demi-gods. Phoenix Lords are not - they're just Exarchs on steroids.

Your making my point Tadashi...It's a primarch thing to do...enter the Eye of Terror and all that...Lorgar is a primarch, no?

And from Codex Eldar 4th edition page 54 " The Phoenix Lords are demigods of battle, whose legends span the stars, the most ancient of the Eldar exarchs."

They ARE demi gods and were worshiped as such.

And just because people believed the Emperor was a diety doesn't make the Primarchs demi gods. That's like saying your car is a demi god of whatever car company made it based on the idea that the car company simply made said car...

The Eldar codex does say the Phoenix Lords are demi gods, it doesn't need an assumption.

But like I said, there isn't enough information to say wether they are an equal to a primarch...I suspect they are greater, but that's just speculation.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

And from Codex Eldar 4th edition page 54 " The Phoenix Lords are demigods of battle, whose legends span the stars, the most ancient of the Eldar exarchs."

They ARE demi gods and were worshiped as such.

And just because people believed the Emperor was a diety doesn't make the Primarchs demi gods. That's like saying your car is a demi god of whatever car company made it based on the idea that the car company simply made said car...

And by that logic just because the Eldar worship them as demi-gods doesn't make them demi-gods either. In 40k, people believing in something makes it true. So if Humans believe the Emperor is a god, He becomes a god, even if He originally didn't want that. So Primarchs are demi-gods because they're the sons of a god (and are considered as such), and Phoenix Lords are demi-gods because the Eldar worship them.

The codex comes right out and says they ARE demi gods Tadashi. I even quoted it to you. You can't deny that they are because the proof is in the codex. But show me in your Space Marine codex where the Primarchs are demi gods?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:The codex comes right out and says they ARE demi gods Tadashi. I even quoted it to you. You can't deny that they are because the proof is in the codex. But show me in your Space Marine codex where the Primarchs are demi gods?

The HH novels which are canon since GW said so, speaks of Primarchs as demi-gods. Even Rogal Dorn was called a war god in Last Remembrancer.

But like I said, there isn't enough information to say wether they are an equal to a primarch...I suspect they are greater, but that's just speculation.

Primarchs are greater because the simple fact is that they're impossible to represent on the table top because they're too OP.

Tadashi wrote:
Primarchs are greater because the simple fact is that they're impossible to represent on the table top because they're too OP.

Angron has official rules for 5th edition 40k.

Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim, and Magnus all head rules in Space Marine.

Primarchs aren't impossible to represent on the table. Angron has rules, as DarknessEternal pointed out. And they're not that crazy, all things considered.

I think the Pheonix Lords don't get enough credit. They're hardly talked about in the Eldar book, which is old enough anyway.

If anything, people keep giving the primarchs huge amounts of credit. It's like every Primarch has 7s for every stat across the board minimum (barring LD of course) and saying otherwise is sacrilegious.

Tadashi wrote:
Primarchs are greater because the simple fact is that they're impossible to represent on the table top because they're too OP.

For perhaps the first time I'm going to have to disagree with you. I think they aren't that OP and could all be represented on the tabletop (admittingly scary as hell, but I could see it being done). Frankly, I feel that people exaggerate the power of the Primarchs. Aside from the DP Primarchs, I'd imagine them being around Mephiston's statline with some greater here and there and some lesser here and there. With the DP Primarchs, I'd say figure out their Pre-Heresy statline (something similar to Mephiston) and then +1 to everything (With the exception of Angron, with his rage factor being over 9000 + Daemonhood, increase his strength to 10 and add on a unnegatable FNP)

Bobthehero wrote:

Compel wrote:Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

Meh... considering a squad of Kasrkins and an IG captain managed to take out a Chaos dread by charging it...

Pshhhh Mkoll took out a dreadnought by himself in Gaunt's Ghosts

A damaged one, and he did not charge the thing

I've seen the rules for Angron in Apocalypse. Being a Daemon Prince like he is they didn't make him so tough. He's basically a Daemon Prince with some nifty rules. He really isn't all that impressive. Some of his stats are not as good as a phoenix lord and some are better. I don't have any problems confidently taking Asurmen against him or Jain Zar or any of the other Phoenix Lords.

And he's a Primarch+Daemon. Given that the stats for him are daemonized, that would make the non daemon version about the same as a Phoenix Lord.

And just so you know, some of his stats are below 7

Bobthehero wrote:A damaged one, and he did not charge the thing

Still counts...

In the newest night lord book Void Stalker they fight the banshee P lord. She killed all of them except one. Even 6 to 1 they were no match for her. I thought it represented what a P lord should be capable of well.

VOID STALKER SPOILER-

I thought she was under-represented, personally. Yes, it was pretty much established that Jain Zarr was superior to any of them 1 on 1. However, she spent the entire book getting wounded pretty bad by Talos and co. before her eventually death. All things considered, I feel that the Howling Banshee P. Lord should have had an easier time taking out ten or so CSM.

Same for that P. Lord from the Path of the Warrior books. His death was lame.

Very true.

riverhawks32 wrote:

Bobthehero wrote:

Compel wrote:Karandras was able to take on a (Venerable?) Dreadnought in close combat in Path of the Warrior.

I won't spoil how it turned out.... However, I think it's a fair comparison really, all things considered.

Meh... considering a squad of Kasrkins and an IG captain managed to take out a Chaos dread by charging it...

Pshhhh Mkoll took out a dreadnought by himself in Gaunt's Ghosts

And managed to out-stalk a Mandrake.


And so I was wrong about the Primarchs being represented. Big deal. They might not be stronger, but on one-on-one, they should be able to fight a Phoenix Lord. And that doesn't factor in the Primarchs' special abilities and legions. Lion, Fulgrim, Lorgar, Khan, Guilliman, Horus, Corax, and Alpharius Omegon would outsmart them and wipe them out in a series of bloody traps. Russ (who specializes in killing psykers), Angron, Sanguinius, and Kurze would tear them apart. Magnus would bring the very Heavens crashing down. Dorn and Perturabo would grind them to paste. Ferrus Manus, Mortarion, and Vulkan would crush them without mercy, regardless of how much fire is directed against them.

the Agron rules were build for the "less is more" line of dex's, we all know that if they updated him... Draigo would be tame in comparison.

OT: Dont forget Jain zar also fought the Callidus assassin in the Inquision war book, she didnt even break a sweat, so P lords should have Assassin stats +1 (except str/t should stay at 4, with certain lords being higher) and that Drazar is pretty much the P lord of the Incubi... wasnt he the scorp lord too?

Formosa wrote:the Agron rules were build for the "less is more" line of dex's, we all know that if they updated him... Draigo would be tame in comparison.

OT: Dont forget Jain zar also fought the Callidus assassin in the Inquision war book, she didnt even break a sweat, so P lords should have Assassin stats +1 (except str/t should stay at 4, with certain lords being higher) and that Drazar is pretty much the P lord of the Incubi... wasnt he the scorp lord too?

So was the current Eldar Codex. It was printed at the same time of "less is more".

And Tadashi, your rant about how thorougly the Space Marine Legions would destroy all before them is not the point of the thread. We're talking about Phoenix Lord power levels, not Space Marine Legion power levels.

So please try to keep on topic.

Formosa wrote:the Agron rules were build for the "less is more" line of dex's, we all know that if they updated him... Draigo would be tame in comparison.

OT: Dont forget Jain zar also fought the Callidus assassin in the Inquision war book, she didnt even break a sweat, so P lords should have Assassin stats +1 (except str/t should stay at 4, with certain lords being higher) and that Drazar is pretty much the P lord of the Incubi... wasnt he the scorp lord too?

It is rumoured that Drazar is Ahra, the fallen pheonix. Karandas duelled with him to see who would be the lord of the scorpions. Not sure who won, but Karandas is still an Eldar and Drazar is now DE.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:

And Tadashi, your rant about how thorougly the Space Marine Legions would destroy all before them is not the point of the thread. We're talking about Phoenix Lord power levels, not Space Marine Legion power levels.

So please try to keep on topic.

Right, sorry 'bout that. Ok, I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll be reasonable. I guess it would depend on the Primarch. Confronting Angron while he's in a berserker fury would be insanity, but with the proper tactics, one can actually use it to one's advantage. The most dangerous ones are Russ, Magnus, Sanguinius, Horus, and Alpharius Omegon.

Russ is not only one of the more powerful close-combat Primarchs, but his most dangerous ability is his psychic howl. At Shrike, it slaughtered the Atheneans in the Second Fellowship, and shook two Thousand Son magisters: T'kar and Ahriman. Think of how much deadlier it would be against Eldar - Atheneans are probably as strong as mainline Seers, and Magisters as Farseers.

Magnus is probably a better close-combat fighter than Russ - Russ only kept up because Magnus was distracted preparing the spell that would transport the Thousand Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and even then Magnus was only brought down by a lucky punch. In sorcery, no other Primarch comes close, and I doubt even Horus would have dared confront him on that grounds.

Sanguinius has the ferocity of Angron, but unlike Angron, he doesn't go all berserker, so this guy is probably the most dangerous close-combat opponent to face. Not to mention his own keen precognitive abilities.

Horus - he was the mightiest, and most intelligent, of the Primarchs, and one of two people apart from the Emperor who could best Angron, the other being Sanguinius. While not everyone may have liked him, all the Primarchs agreed he was the best among them.

Alpharius Omegon - never, EVER, face these guys on their terms. Only Horus and the Emperor can hope to keep up if they engage on their terms, which is more often than not what they try to do.

Tadashi wrote:

Right, sorry 'bout that. Ok, I'm in a good mood right now, so I'll be reasonable. I guess it would depend on the Primarch. Confronting Angron while he's in a berserker fury would be insanity, but with the proper tactics, one can actually use it to one's advantage. The most dangerous ones are Russ, Magnus, Sanguinius, Horus, and Alpharius Omegon.

Russ is not only one of the more powerful close-combat Primarchs, but his most dangerous ability is his psychic howl. At Shrike, it slaughtered the Atheneans in the Second Fellowship, and shook two Thousand Son magisters: T'kar and Ahriman. Think of how much deadlier it would be against Eldar - Atheneans are probably as strong as mainline Seers, and Magisters as Farseers.

Magnus is probably a better close-combat fighter than Russ - Russ only kept up because Magnus was distracted preparing the spell that would transport the Thousand Sons to the Planet of the Sorcerers, and even then Magnus was only brought down by a lucky punch. In sorcery, no other Primarch comes close, and I doubt even Horus would have dared confront him on that grounds.

Sanguinius has the ferocity of Angron, but unlike Angron, he doesn't go all berserker, so this guy is probably the most dangerous close-combat opponent to face. Not to mention his own keen precognitive abilities.

Horus - he was the mightiest, and most intelligent, of the Primarchs, and one of two people apart from the Emperor who could best Angron, the other being Sanguinius. While not everyone may have liked him, all the Primarchs agreed he was the best among them.

Alpharius Omegon - never, EVER, face these guys on their terms. Only Horus and the Emperor can hope to keep up if they engage on their terms, which is more often than not what they try to do.

I have a couple of problems with the points you make here, Tadashi:

How are the Atheneans anywhere near comparable to the Eldar? The Eldar are the most powerful psykers in existence, fluffwise. They have the ability to completely strip the souls from beings and nullify some of the strongest psychic powers. I'd imagine that a Farseer would be more than capable of defending against a 'Psychic Howl'.

Magus was most certainly not a "better close-combat fighter than Russ", in fact, his Close-combat abilities, while impressive, were quite overshadowed by those of his brothers.

Sanguinius and Angron were said to be basically even in combat; Sanguinius could handle Angron but both were skilled enough to prove more than a match for each other.

Horus was not the "mightiest" nor was he the most "intelligent". Both are subjective to the one he is compared to. While yes, Horus excelled at almost all aspects those such as Magnus excelled his psychic and intellectual potential and Angron, his comat prowess. Also, not all Primarchs "agreed he was the best among them" - remember when many of the Primarchs believed that Lion'El Johnson should have been Warmaster?

Really? Despite all their guile and subterfuge Gullieman still managed to, apparently, clobber one and take the Alpha legion by surprise.

Iranna.

Iranna wrote:
How are the Atheneans anywhere near comparable to the Eldar? The Eldar are the most powerful psykers in existence, fluffwise. They have the ability to completely strip the souls from beings and nullify some of the strongest psychic powers. I'd imagine that a Farseer would be more than capable of defending against a 'Psychic Howl'.

First off, Atheneans are dedicated telepaths. All their powers are focused on that single aspect. Yes, Eldar are more powerful psykers, but as telepaths they're equalled by or are outclassed by Atheneans. And I never said a Farseer would be killed by Russ' psychic howl. I only stated that they were equalled by a Thousand Son magister, who I explicitly stated as shaken, not killed.

Magus was most certainly not a "better close-combat fighter than Russ", in fact, his Close-combat abilities, while impressive, were quite overshadowed by those of his brothers.

The latter part yes, but if you read A Thousand Sons, you'd know Magnus was dividing his focus between fighting Russ and casting the spell that would send his legion to the Planet of the Sorcerers. Even so, he could easily keep up with Russ, and nearly killed him too, if not for a lucky punch from his opponent.

Sanguinius and Angron were said to be basically even in combat; Sanguinius could handle Angron but both were skilled enough to prove more than a match for each other.

Even so, Angron has a weakness since he's a berserker. An intelligent opponent could take advantage of that. And Sanguinius was not a berserker, not to mention being the only Primarch that Horus considered as better than himself. Probably because he and Horus embodied all of the Emperor's traits.

Horus was not the "mightiest" nor was he the most "intelligent". Both are subjective to the one he is compared to. While yes, Horus excelled at almost all aspects those such as Magnus excelled his psychic and intellectual potential and Angron, his comat prowess. Also, not all Primarchs "agreed he was the best among them" - remember when many of the Primarchs believed that Lion'El Johnson should have been Warmaster?

Horus was the only one who actually defeated Angron in single combat. Sanguinius was only assumed (though probably correctly) to be able to best Angron. And Horus was the greatest among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy proves it. As a specialist, he probably was not as good as some of the other Primarchs, but he and Sanguinius were the only ones to fully embody all of the Emperor's traits.

Really? Despite all their guile and subterfuge Gullieman still managed to, apparently, clobber one and take the Alpha legion by surprise.

Are we even sure Guilliman killed Alpharius? And whose to say the Battle of Eskrador wasn't a plot by the Alpha Legion to make it easier for them to fade into the galactic hinterland, and to confuse the Imperium with regards to their Primarchs' status?

yellowfever wrote:In the newest night lord book Void Stalker they fight the banshee P lord. She killed all of them except one. Even 6 to 1 they were no match for her. I thought it represented what a P lord should be capable of well.

BlaxicanX wrote:VOID STALKER SPOILER-

I thought she was under-represented, personally. Yes, it was pretty much established that Jain Zarr was superior to any of them 1 on 1. However, she spent the entire book getting wounded pretty bad by Talos and co. before her eventually death. All things considered, I feel that the Howling Banshee P. Lord should have had an easier time taking out ten or so CSM.

Same for that P. Lord from the Path of the Warrior books. His death was lame.

I don't think it is Jain Zar, it's just a superbly pissed off Exarch, they have similar weapons after all.

She also invokes her Phoenix Lords name before she dies as her death mantra

Tadashi wrote:Horus was the only one who actually defeated Angron in single combat.

Really? You have proof of that do you?

Tadashi wrote:And Horus was the greatest among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy proves it. As a specialist, he probably was not as good as some of the other Primarchs, but he and Sanguinius were the only ones to fully embody all of the Emperor's traits.

Betrayal and a thirst for blood being the evident traits

Maugan Ra stood up to an entire Tendril of a Hive Fleet on his Bill and won. That's something, depending on how big the tendril was. Could a Primarch do that?

Roadkill Zombie wrote:There isn't enough fluff about Phoenix Lords to make the assumption that they are not as powerful as a primarch. They may very well be. I guess we may find out when the next codex comes out for Eldar.

Fluff wise Primarchs are not gods and Eldar Phoenix Lords ARE demi gods.

Phoenix lords are about on par with a marine chapter master, considering that calgar beat an avatar, an actual eldar god.

Didnt Fulgrim take a gak on an avatar, a falcon, AND eldrads personal wraithlord bodyguard with a sword? The same part of the book describes Lucius as dueling 3 banshees at once and toying with them.

And Lorgar got his torso shredded by a lightning claw from Corax, and it begin reknitting itself almost instantly and he kept fighting. Im pretty sure if the same thing happened to a phoenix lord it would be dead, or at least that reincarnation of it.

I heard somewhere that leman russ jumped off a building, punched a warhound titans cockpit, and the impact killed the crew. But that sounds like a stretch.

The primarchs dont have rules, because they are too powerful to be fielded. They fill an important plot function, same with the emperor. They show you how powerful humanity was previously, and how far it has fallen. From entire legions lead by the unstoppable primarchs, to small chapters trying their best to maintain the current borders of imperial space. During the crusade the generals of the emperors armies were these super-beings, incredibly intelligent, more deadly than almost anything seen before, and very well educated. Look at who leads the emperors armies now. Religious fanatics, administrative donkey-caves, and chapter masters who are incredibly superstitious.

And I wouldnt be bothered that eldar dont stand up to marines in a direct way. Fluffwise, they almost never commit to large, direct battles, and when they do its with terrible losses. Marines are genetically engineered shock troops, you would figure that their incredibly potent kings would be able to slap around pretty much anything else. So sure, jain zar gets her face crushed by sanguinus, angron, or any of the other primarchs. But this is irrelevant, as the eldar dont fight direct engagements like that. A phoneix lord is much more likely to avoid a primarch as long as possible and try and do maximum damage elsewhere disrupting things.

I never understood eldar players getting mad that their race's combat masters cant stand up to some of the other races, they arent a tough race. Marines are the group that drop in from the skies, guns blazing, and crush the enemy in fast, direct engagements. Eldar will attack some small moon outpost, because it prevents a demon from awakening in 500 years or whatever.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Horus was the only one who actually defeated Angron in single combat.

Really? You have proof of that do you?

In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

Tadashi wrote:And Horus was the greatest among the Primarchs. The Horus Heresy proves it. As a specialist, he probably was not as good as some of the other Primarchs, but he and Sanguinius were the only ones to fully embody all of the Emperor's traits.

Betrayal and a thirst for blood being the evident traits

Yeah...no. Sanguinius chained his blood lust off the battlefield, and did not go on bloody rages like Angron.

Eidolon wrote:
I never understood eldar players getting mad that their race's combat masters cant stand up to some of the other races, they arent a tough race. Marines are the group that drop in from the skies, guns blazing, and crush the enemy in fast, direct engagements. Eldar will attack some small moon outpost, because it prevents a demon from awakening in 500 years or whatever.

Because just like Imperial players and fans, and let's be candid, who are proud and xenophobic like the Imperium, Eldar players and fans are arrogant and high horsed like their faction. Imperials crush the opponent with overwhelming power. The Primarchs are superior to Phoenix Lords in that regard. PURE, OVERWHELMING POWER THAT TRANSCENDS TECHNIQUE.

Tadashi wrote:
In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

No, it's only thought by Corax that perhaps only Horus or Sanguinius could defeat Angron. There's a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah...no. Sanguinius chained his blood lust off the battlefield, and did not go on bloody rages like Angron.

So you have lots of background stories about Sanguinius taking tea do you? My point was on the battle field, both have a thirst for blood, they are warriors after all.

Pilau Rice wrote:
Maugan Ra stood up to an entire Tendril of a Hive Fleet on his Bill and won. That's something, depending on how big the tendril was. Could a Primarch do that?

Of course they can. Magnus certainly could, as his control of the Warp was only limited by his own blind pride, and even then was surpassed only by the Emperor. And if Russ could hold his own against Magnus- even when the latter was distracted - he certainly could do it too.


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Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

No, it's only thought by Corax that perhaps only Horus or Sanguinius could defeat Angron. There's a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

But no one said either that they couldn't do it.

Tadashi wrote:

Yeah...no. Sanguinius chained his blood lust off the battlefield, and did not go on bloody rages like Angron.

So you have lots of background stories about Sanguinius taking tea do you? My point was on the battle field, both have a thirst for blood, they are warriors after all.

My point is that Sanguinius wasn't a berserker like Angron. Otherwise, the Blood Angels wou;d have gained the same reputation as the World Eaters.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Maugan Ra stood up to an entire Tendril of a Hive Fleet on his Bill and won. That's something, depending on how big the tendril was. Could a Primarch do that?

Of course they can. Magnus certainly could, as his control of the Warp was only limited by his own blind pride, and even then was surpassed only by the Emperor. And if Russ could hold his own against Magnus- even when the latter was distracted - he certainly could do it too.

True, but your outright claim that Phoenix Lords aren't comparative to Primarchs is flawed. Certain Primarchs would eventually get beaten and Russ, without psychic talents like Magnus would be one of these. With the Shadow, it's quite probable that even Magnus would have a hard time.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
In Raven's Flight, it was stated that during the HH only Horus and Sanguinius could defeat Angron in close combat.

No, it's only thought by Corax that perhaps only Horus or Sanguinius could defeat Angron. There's a big difference between being able to do something and actually doing it.

But no one said either that they couldn't do it.

And no one said that they had done it.

Tadashi wrote:My point is that Sanguinius wasn't a berserker like Angron. Otherwise, the Blood Angels wou;d have gained the same reputation as the World Eaters.

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Edit: quote tags

Pilau Rice wrote:


True, but your outright claim that Phoenix Lords aren't comparative to Primarchs is flawed. Certain Primarchs would eventually get beaten and Russ, without psychic talents like Magnus would be one of these. With the Shadow, it's quite probable that even Magnus would have a hard time.

They were all psykers to a certain degree. They just didn't use it, or were unaware of their abilities. Even Russ (who was viciously anti-psyker) had a devastating psychic howl.

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Compared is the word. And by who? The post-Heresy Imperium? Well duh, the only reason the Ordo Hereticus hasn't investigated them is because of their status as a First Founding Legion and their reputation, not to mention their semi-autonomous status as Space Marines.

This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Compared is the word. And by who? The post-Heresy Imperium? Well duh, the only reason the Ordo Hereticus hasn't investigated them is because of their status as a First Founding Legion and their reputation, not to mention their semi-autonomous status as Space Marines.

Err, not just post as far as I know, but pre. They were supposed to share the same preference for close combat fighting and being a rather bloody lot. The World Eaters didn't care that the Imperium knew about it.

riplikash wrote:This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

If only Coa were here...*sigh*. Last I heard he was on account suspension for trolling. If he were here, this thread would be covered in corpses (figuratively speaking, of course).

Could some of you guys at least TRY to stay on topic? Pretty please!
There are/were/will be butt-loads of topics comparing Primachs/Chapters between one another. This is not one of them.

Tadashi wrote:
If only Coa were here...*sigh*. Last I heard he was on account suspension for trolling. If he were here, this thread would be covered in corpses (figuratively speaking, of course).

I can't tell if you consider that a good or a bad thing.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Yet the Blood Angels and the World Eaters have been compared.

Compared is the word. And by who? The post-Heresy Imperium? Well duh, the only reason the Ordo Hereticus hasn't investigated them is because of their status as a First Founding Legion and their reputation, not to mention their semi-autonomous status as Space Marines.

Err, not just post as far as I know, but pre. They were supposed to share the same preference for close combat fighting and being a rather bloody lot. The World Eaters didn't care that the Imperium knew about it.

So did the Space Wolves in fact. But the Blood Angels weren't considered a gang of thugs like the World Eaters at least. Bloody, yes. Monstrous? No.


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riplikash wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
If only Coa were here...*sigh*. Last I heard he was on account suspension for trolling. If he were here, this thread would be covered in corpses (figuratively speaking, of course).

I can't tell if you consider that a good or a bad thing.

Bad.

The Blood Ravens are holding on their own, but the Ultramarines need to get here ASAP.

riplikash wrote:This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

Which is what I am trying to bring to light. Without exact instances of how powerful each are it's just speculation and fanboyism. But to declare that one is more powerful than the other is stupid.

Macok wrote:Could some of you guys at least TRY to stay on topic? Pretty please!
There are/were/will be butt-loads of topics comparing Primachs/Chapters between one another. This is not one of them.

The Phoenix Lords were compared to Primarchs earlier in the thread and the Legion discussion generally is a by product of that, apologies. When trying to get a power level you have to use something as a comparative.

Tadashi wrote:So did the Space Wolves in fact. But the Blood Angels weren't considered a gang of thugs like the World Eaters at least. Bloody, yes. Monstrous? No..

Thank you

riplikash wrote:This discussion is getting pointless. There just isn't enough fluff for the Pheonix Lords OR the Primarchs to compare. You can't say who would win.

Really, it seems the most we have on Pheonix Lords is that they are at least the equivalent of a Chapter Master, and MAY be the equivalent of a Primarch.

Do I take that view personally? No. But I recognize that their fluff is sufficiently vague that it is a perfectly valid interpretation, and pointless to argue against.

They are painted as performing deeds worthy of a primarch, but we are not given specifics as to how they were accomplished. They are given to have experience and finess far outstripping many primarchs (at least outside of their area of expertise), but would likely fall behind in pure power.

Please don't argue against each others personal canon when there is not sufficient fluff to really say one way or the other.

Considering 2/3 of the Phoenix Lords either wouldn't bother with HTH or attack first (banshee mask) this whole approach of Monkeigh better is...interesting. Yes a lion can kill a hunter if the hunter is stupid, else the hunter shoots the lion from 300 yards away. Foolish Monkeigh, bringing a knife to a gun fight...

I'm really not sure why you are addressing me. I didn't say anything about the Primarchs being better or melee fighting.

Beyond that I'm not sure what to make of your comparison. Are you claiming SM don't use ranged weaponry? Are you artificially giving one side the element of surprise or superior equipment/preparation?

The whole comparison doesn't make sense. If one were to have a discussion of "who would win, a human or a lion" I can't imagine the implied question would be "if the human could sneak up on the lion and shoot it with a gun". Likewise a discussion of Pheonix Lords vs Primarchs would not revolve around "could a pheonix lord beat a primarch with a sniper rifle at 3000 yards". Ok, obviously the Pheonix lord wins. Heck, a regular human could beat a Primarch in that situation.

Certainly one could argue a Catachan could beat a hive tyrant using guile, preparation, and superior equipment. But in a discussion of power levels, obviously the hive tyrant comes out on top. Similarly, in this discussion all that matters is, could a Phoenix Lord take on a Primarch in a 1 on 1 fight (not necessarily melee) with equal access to equipment, knowledge of the situation, and time to prepare. The answer is, we don't know.

The only point I attempted to make was a direct comparison is fruitless due to lack of data. Did you just not read my post?

who cares about the primarchs lol, i want more on the P'lords in a p lord thread.

there is a fair amount of fluff on some of the P lords, Maugan sliced (what may have been a Trigon, it didnt exist in the codex at the time) in half and held up a swarm with his reapers, this was on Inyanden.

Jain zar as some have noted has fluff in a few places.

Does anyone know if we have anything on any of the others?

riplikash wrote:I'm really not sure why you are addressing me. I didn't say anything about the Primarchs being better or melee fighting.

You're was a nice quote at the time. The power level of primarch vs. Phoenix Lords is misplaced. Primarchs may be excellent commanders and excellent HTH fighters, but PLords are the best of a race naturally superior to humans, and they play more with ranged weaponry, actually fly, or have equipment that stuns humans.

Beyond that I'm not sure what to make of your comparison. Are you claiming SM don't use ranged weaponry?

Generally no, beyond a bolt pistol. Angron is not known for his supernatural skill with a lascannon. in contrast, thats the shtick of most of the Phoenix Lords.

Are you artificially giving one side the element of surprise or superior equipment/preparation?

Not artificial. Again, its their shtick. A pointy stick is no match for a fast firing missile launcher or some guy bombing you from the air.

If you're going to compare the power level of primarchs to PLords you have to compare what they are actually capable of, not just Primarch HURR HURR!

Frazzled wrote:

riplikash wrote:I'm really not sure why you are addressing me. I didn't say anything about the Primarchs being better or melee fighting.

You're was a nice quote at the time. The power level of primarch vs. Phoenix Lords is misplaced. Primarchs may be excellent commanders and excellent HTH fighters, but PLords are the best of a race naturally superior to humans, and they play more with ranged weaponry, actually fly, or have equipment that stuns humans.

Beyond that I'm not sure what to make of your comparison. Are you claiming SM don't use ranged weaponry?

Generally no, beyond a bolt pistol. Angron is not known for his supernatural skill with a lascannon. in contrast, thats the shtick of most of the Phoenix Lords.

Are you artificially giving one side the element of surprise or superior equipment/preparation?

Not artificial. Again, its their shtick. A pointy stick is no match for a fast firing missile launcher or some guy bombing you from the air.

If you're going to compare the power level of primarchs to PLords you have to compare what they are actually capable of, not just Primarch HURR HURR!

I'm not rising to this. It wasn't a convenient quote, you weren't addressing what i said at all. I've never made a comparison between the two, and only said it is pointless to make comparisons. We just don't know enough about the full capabilities of either side.

The Pheonix Lords and the Primarchs are masters of war. It is silly to try to pidgin hole either side. The Imperial supporters have been attempting to do that to the Pheonix Lords, and now you are attempting to do the same thing to the Primarchs. They are known for being trained masters of all aspects of warfare, and typically act as generals. Of course they are typically depicted with bolt pistols, that is the weapon of an officer and commander. But they are also known for distinguishing themselves in the fields of stealth, strength, melee prowess, firearm prowess, and every other martial art.

They are both gods of war, but we do not have sufficient info to make any meaningful comparison.

When was the last time a primarch killed something with a ranged weapon?

Mortarion. Your argument is invalid. lol

Again, at the time most of the stories are written they are acting as GENERALS! Officers typically carry a sidearm, and in certain cultures a melee weapon such as a saber. But most of their background makes a point of how they excelled at the use of all weaponry, tactics, and techniques.

Am I arguing they ar a better shot than a range weaponry focused Pheonix Lord? Obviously not. But there is that goes into a conflict than that. Stealth, tactics, skill, endurance, equipment, and location are going to have a big effect. You know, all those things we CAN'T really compare, because we lack adequate information?

There is a reason real world militaries don't just equip all their troops as sharpshooters.

Sure, on open ground, if the Primarch is equipped as a commanding officer and the Pheonix Lord is equipped with ranged weaponry their preternatural skill with firearms, honed over millenia is probably going to win out. But that is an overly one sided situation to use for comparison.

Can we drop the primarch thing now, stop derailing the thread, and move on to more interesting discussions?

Also, Horus killed the false Emperor at the beginning of Horus Rising with a gun, not with his sword.

BlaxicanX wrote:Mortarion. Your argument is invalid. lol

What with what? This is several of the PLords bread and butter.

Now if we're saying "tiers of badassness" I'd definitely put them at primarch level. Like primarchs they are demigods in their own culture, and have a slew of victories far beyond mortals of their species. They have the capability to lead their aspects, and advanced weaponry.

Are they more powerful thean primarchs? As primarchs have no stats that impossible to say for certain. But they definitely have the same position in their respective cultures. Of course, they are still kicking about.

Frazzled wrote:

BlaxicanX wrote:Mortarion. Your argument is invalid. lol

What with what?

You asked, "when has a Primarch ever killed someone with a ranged weapon".

I just told you when. lol

DOW2 has a Phoenix Lord as a boss in one level. That puts their power level at around 12 SMs. (Gain of salt)

is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

nomotog wrote:DOW2 has a Phoenix Lord as a boss in one level. That puts their power level at around 12 SMs. (Gain of salt)

What? I don't remember a Phoenix Lord ever appearing.

Frazzled wrote:is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

Also, is that a PLord or just an exarch?

There was never a phoenix lord in DoW2.

I hestitate to join a debate like this. I certanly do not want to start comparing them to other things in the fluff. Often it will depend on the need of the author in a given situation. Thinks to keep in mind with the Phoenix lords is that they are important fogures to the eldar. Eather in poletics or on the battlefield as commanders or as a hidden hand shaping the race the phoenix lords have a really big impact. A good place to read about theyr powers and limitattions would be the doom of myrelia the forge world book.

spoiler alert

there they talk about how a phoenix lord reads the runes or get help reading the runes and goes out and save the eldar race from an unknown race. and after that the imperial forces defeats the eldars but, being imortal, the eldars manadge to reclaim one of the lost phoenix lords, something witch is a big tip of the scales in the eldars favor in along term perspective.

It would be an interesting battle between a Primarch and a Phoenix Lord. They both have weapons that would be able to kill each other, but they are indicative of their species. The Primarchs are going to be much more "head on" scary, and if they catch you straight up at the beginning they will rip the Phoenix Lord limb from limb. However, the Eldar are extremely fast and skilled, so the Primarch wouldn't have the easiest time catching them either. Certain matchs would be much harder for one side or the other. Baharroth vs Angron would probably give Baharroth the advantage. Fly around until he sees a weak point, and use his incredible Eldar speed while dropping Grenades to exploit it. However, Baharroth vs Magnus would than put Magnus ahead as he could easily blow him out out of the sky. Magnus is weak vs either Karandras or Jain Zar but Angron could probably take them.

On and on as such. With lack of lore about them fighting we'll never know, and it's all so situation since everyone has their own Niche that the matchup is entirely dependent. The only thing I could say is the Primarchs are still human, and may be able to be outwitted in the fight by an Eldar. Someone like Asurmen may let a Primarch have the upper ground during the fight, just so when they became too pompous a single strike from his dire sword would end their life. It's all so situational.

I consider the Phoenix Lords like a Swiss Army Knife, with many gadgets and tricks but it would stink to use when taking down a tree. Primarchs would be like an Axe, real brute strength and can take down a tree or log with ease, but try to cut a precise line on clothe with them and they fail where the Phoenix Lords could succeed.

Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

As for Void Stalker, which I haven't read yet; did the "phoenix lord" in there bleed? If so, that wasn't a phoenix lord. They don't have physical bodies. Their body is completely annihilated when they first put on the armor.

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

Also, is that a PLord or just an exarch?

I had to go back and check. It was just an exarch. I think I just remembered wrong.

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

Tadashi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

No its completely wrong, they both went at each other samurai style and took a swing... alpharius dropped, Gulliman didnt. And thats even if it was Alpharius that was in the fight at all.

Formosa wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

No its completely wrong, they both went at each other samurai style and took a swing... alpharius dropped, Gulliman didnt. And thats even if it was Alpharius that was in the fight at all.

My point was that do we really know it was Alpharius that Guilliman killed. Or was it Omegon? Or an Alpha Marine masquerading as one?

Tadashi wrote:

Formosa wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:Gulliman killed Alpharius with a bolter.

You sure about that? This is the Alpha Legion we're talking about.

No its completely wrong, they both went at each other samurai style and took a swing... alpharius dropped, Gulliman didnt. And thats even if it was Alpharius that was in the fight at all.

My point was that do we really know it was Alpharius that Guilliman killed. Or was it Omegon? Or an Alpha Marine masquerading as one?

Im totally with you on that, i very much doubt it was A or O, as it was an honour thing and niether cared for such an outdated concept, why fight when you know you will lose? better to make the enemy think he has won... now that sounds like Alpha Legion

It was an Alpha Legionnaire pretending to be an Ultramarine pretending to be Omegon, but Guilliman though it was Alpharius.

Bobthehero wrote:It was an Alpha Legionnaire pretending to be an Ultramarine pretending to be Omegon, but Guilliman though it was Alpharius.

I asume this is lolz

Just to clarify, Omegon didnt exist in the fluff at the time and the Alpha impersonating ultra reinforcements was funny as hell, remember at this point the Legionaries had the Ultras soundly beaten, this war is an analogy of the U.S verus Vietnam or Russia vs Afganistan (my my how people forgot that one lol), I.E the small Gorilla army overcame the superior (in number ultras) force and forced them to leave (although the Ultras thought they left in Victory with the death of Alpharius)

Which version of that story are you remembering? Originally the Alpha Legion was soundly beaten. Alpharius had his rage-boner about Guilliman always disrespecting him and had the Alpha Legion engage in a stand up war so he could try and prove he could out-war Gulliman. Then the Alpha Legion got gutted like sheep.

DarknessEternal wrote:Which version of that story are you remembering? Originally the Alpha Legion was soundly beaten. Alpharius had his rage-boner about Guilliman always disrespecting him and had the Alpha Legion engage in a stand up war so he could try and prove he could out-war Gulliman. Then the Alpha Legion got gutted like sheep.

That never happened, I have no idea where you read that, but im getting this from index astartes

Alpha legion (note old fluff) felt slighted throughout the HH that they were looked down upon by the older legions and there fighting style was cowardly.... fast forward to the end of the heresy and the ultras (cant remmeber why) attack a planet occupied by the Alpha legion, Gulliman uses his codex and natural tactical genius to try and fight the Alphas in a straight up fight, this is not how the legion fights and ran rings around the ultras, even going so far as to paint themselves as ultras (this part here is why in 3rd youd see alot of AL armies with mixed loyalist units for lolz) Gulliman wanted a conventional war and never got one, it even at the end of the article goes on to say reagardless of "if" Alpharius had been killed, his way of waging war had won

Frazzled wrote:

Frazzled wrote:is that good? I don't play Dawn of War.

Also, is that a PLord or just an exarch?

Dawn of War series is not a grain of salt, it's the whole Atlantic ocean worth of salt. Relic's story writers likes to use Eldar in pretty much the same unimaginative way film writers use Soldiers. Essentially someone says they're strong and powerful, then the plot armour kicks into high gear and the brainless underdog that the film is about is the only one with foresight and the only one who has the means to do anything about a bad situation. What it all boils down to is thus; Relic is even worse than certain Black Library authors at portraying Eldar in the presence of the Space Marines.

I think the problem with the 40k Background is that the perspective is forgotten. Most stories have the Imperium or better yet the Space Marines as the heroes, yet when discussing the fluff people treat those stories as if completely unbiased canon.

A certain Primarch beats an Avatar and it's suddenly established fact that Primarchs > Avatar, while since it was entertaining fiction with the Primarch being the hero of the story the Avatar is there to portray what a great feat of strength and what level of nearly impossible challenges the Primarchs have to overcome. This establishes that the Avatar is a very, very, serious threat to the Primarch and that the Avatar is more than the better of the Primarch, but through devious cunning, luck, or simply extraordinary willpower the Avatar is still overcome. Unfortunately in this hypothetical situation we have that people forget who the underdog is or they forget what it means to be the underdog. If the Avatar had won, it wouldn't have been a huge thing, just more blood to mingle with Eldanesh' on the floor - it would have been the expected outcome and it would have destroyed the story since the hero would've been dead.

The Eldar are the side figures of this story, and many authors do not know how to properly take care of them. Eldar are the guys sitting with all the cards, but in the stories for some reason those cards are always wrong. It's just poor storytelling. Or plot armour.

(Oh, and the Phoenix Lords are demi-gods, because much like the Emperor they can not be killed permanently, are supremely powerful, and no longer have cognitive patterns along the same lines as mortals of their race - unlike the primarchs whom are still pretty much mortals. And because GW says so, if nothing else.)

Nice post Mahtamori. Unfortunately "Worfing" is pretty common in wh40k, not only towards Eldar.

As for how Eldar are portrayed in DoWs I noticed one thing. Space Marines should really stop attacking Eldar Warlocks and Seers.
SMs attack Farseer Macha - Chaos gets Maledictum
SMs kill farseer - they break the ritual against the Tyranids.
SMs kill seer council - exterminatus is unleashed.
I mean fool me once, but three times?

Macok wrote:Nice post Mahtamori. Unfortunately "Worfing" is pretty common in wh40k, not only towards Eldar.

As for how Eldar are portrayed in DoWs I noticed one thing. Space Marines should really stop attacking Eldar Warlocks and Seers.
SMs attack Farseer Macha - Chaos gets Maledictum
SMs kill farseer - they break the ritual against the Tyranids.
SMs kill seer council - exterminatus is unleashed.
I mean fool me once, but three times?

Well, it's not like Astartes have a lot of reasons to trust the Eldar, do they? Perhaps the Eldar got off their high horse and actually told them why they were doing it the Astartes might not attack them.

It's not as if the Imperium is so receptive to anyone trying to explain anything to them. Why bother explaining everything when they already know what the answer will be?

The Astartes will attack them regardless of what the Eldar have to say. The Astartes have been doing just that since before the Heresy. Remember the Great Crusade? The Imperium is and always has been afraid of Xenos. That's why they call them Xenos!

Eldar know better than to cast the pearls before the swine. The swine will not realize their value and trample them underfoot.

Better to just take action. Actions are worth a thousand words. No need to explain yourself to a human when they are ignorant anyway and refuse to listen to reason.

With the accumulated combat prowess and wisdom of countless exarchs, the ability to not only reverse their own death, but thereby accrue even more deadliness, I'd say that Phoenix Lords are second only to the C'tan in terms of powerful beings. By comparison, Primarchs possessed the minds of children.
I mean the Primarchs are dead/can die... That in itself makes them pretty inferior in my book.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It's not as if the Imperium is so receptive to anyone trying to explain anything to them. Why bother explaining everything when they already know what the answer will be?

The Astartes will attack them regardless of what the Eldar have to say. The Astartes have been doing just that since before the Heresy. Remember the Great Crusade? The Imperium is and always has been afraid of Xenos. That's why they call them Xenos!

Eldar know better than to cast the pearls before the swine. The swine will not realize their value and trample them underfoot.

Better to just take action. Actions are worth a thousand words. No need to explain yourself to a human when they are ignorant anyway and refuse to listen to reason.

Then don't complain when Astartes open fire on sight.

Archonate wrote:With the accumulated combat prowess and wisdom of countless exarchs, the ability to not only reverse their own death, but thereby accrue even more deadliness, I'd say that Phoenix Lords are second only to the C'tan in terms of powerful beings. By comparison, Primarchs possessed the minds of children.
I mean the Primarchs are dead/can die... That in itself makes them pretty inferior in my book.

If so powerful, why flee Slaanesh? If so powerful, why not confront yourselves like the Harlequins do instead of following the Paths? If so powerful, why not slay the Emperor before He could put His plans into motion? Or, for that matter, break into the Imperial Palace and slay the Emperor and end the Human threat once and for all? After all, if the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as you claim, then the Emperor should be no trouble, since He was incapacitated by a 'mere' Primarch - His own son.

Tadashi wrote:If so powerful, why flee Slaanesh? If so powerful, why not confront yourselves like the Harlequins do instead of following the Paths? If so powerful, why not slay the Emperor before He could put His plans into motion? Or, for that matter, break into the Imperial Palace and slay the Emperor and end the Human threat once and for all? After all, if the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as you claim, then the Emperor should be no trouble, since He was incapacitated by a 'mere' Primarch - His own son.

Firstly, the Harlequins do not directly confront Slaanesh. They hide in the Webway and play around, sometimes coming out to fight in certain battles. Much like the Laughing God who did not confront Slaanesh but escaped into the webway by tricking his way out.

Also, the Eldar do not want to kill the Imperium because they are effectly a giant meatshield between them and alot of stuff out there in the galaxy. As you said yourself in the other, thread, Chaos considers mankind more of a threat than the Eldar. If the Imperium dies, then so does the eldar. Orks will become much more powerful, as will Nids and Chaos. Eldar wouldn't stand a chance, so keeping the Emperor alive is more in their favour thank killing him.

And I doubt a primarch, say even a Demon primarch, could break into the imperial palace and kill the Emperor all by himself. Heck, the traitor legions all combined couldn't even do that.

Lord Rogukiel wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If so powerful, why flee Slaanesh? If so powerful, why not confront yourselves like the Harlequins do instead of following the Paths? If so powerful, why not slay the Emperor before He could put His plans into motion? Or, for that matter, break into the Imperial Palace and slay the Emperor and end the Human threat once and for all? After all, if the Phoenix Lords are as powerful as you claim, then the Emperor should be no trouble, since He was incapacitated by a 'mere' Primarch - His own son.

Firstly, the Harlequins do not directly confront Slaanesh. They hide in the Webway and play around, sometimes coming out to fight in certain battles. Much like the Laughing God who did not confront Slaanesh but escaped into the webway by tricking his way out.[/ quote]

I meant confront yourself instead of running through the Paths, or indulging yourself like the Dark Eldar. In doing so the Eldar become less than themselves.

Also, the Eldar do not want to kill the Imperium because they are effectly a giant meatshield between them and alot of stuff out there in the galaxy. As you said yourself in the other, thread, Chaos considers mankind more of a threat than the Eldar. If the Imperium dies, then so does the eldar. Orks will become much more powerful, as will Nids and Chaos. Eldar wouldn't stand a chance, so keeping the Emperor alive is more in their favour thank killing him.


And I doubt a primarch, say even a Demon primarch, could break into the imperial palace and kill the Emperor all by himself. Heck, the traitor legions all combined couldn't even do that.

Lord Rogukiel your assumption about how Eldar would die if humanity were to all be killed off is just speculation. Some Eldar craftworlds are trying to do just that. They kill every human they see.

The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

If you think the Eldar so weak, watch what happens to an Imperial citizen when they steal away Eldar spirit stones. Even High Lords of Terra aren't stupid enough to do that kind of thing. The last Imperial that did was gathered up by Eldar, Handed over to the Harlequins, and they handed him over to the Dark Eldar for re education on what not to do to the Eldar.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.

Definitely the Emperor, the guy in the throne is Horus

A C'tan or a C'tan shard

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.

Definitely the Emperor, the guy in the throne is Horus

A C'tan or a C'tan shard

Horus doesn't wear barouque power armor - he wore Terminator Armor. And even if the Emperor defeated just a shard, which I personally doubt, it takes more than one Necron to defeat a rogue shard, while the Emperor did it alone.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.

Definitely the Emperor, the guy in the throne is Horus

A C'tan or a C'tan shard

Horus doesn't wear barouque power armor - he wore Terminator Armor. And even if the Emperor defeated just a shard, which I personally doubt, it takes more than one Necron to defeat a rogue shard, while the Emperor did it alone.

You're right, he doesn't because he is on the Golden Throne.

The Emperor did, but he is in Trazyns collection

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.

Definitely the Emperor, the guy in the throne is Horus

A C'tan or a C'tan shard

Horus doesn't wear barouque power armor - he wore Terminator Armor. And even if the Emperor defeated just a shard, which I personally doubt, it takes more than one Necron to defeat a rogue shard, while the Emperor did it alone.

You're right, he doesn't because he is on the Golden Throne.

The Emperor did, but he is in Trazyns collection

Impossible. Horus soul was reduced to energy by the Emperor's final attack, and his body destroyed by Abaddon after Bile went all frankenstein on it.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Roadkill Zombie wrote:
The reason they don't bother with the Emperor is because they know the Emperor isn't the real Emperor. The real one is in Trazyn's collection. They also know the Emperor holds no real power in the Imperium. Instead it's the 12 High Lords of Terra that do.

The Emperor's not the only one who wore baroque power armor. A few Primarchs are missing and are far more likely to be the one in Trazyn's collection. A man who defeated and imprisoned a C'tan by himself is too powerful for Trazyn to handle.

Definitely the Emperor, the guy in the throne is Horus

A C'tan or a C'tan shard

Horus doesn't wear barouque power armor - he wore Terminator Armor. And even if the Emperor defeated just a shard, which I personally doubt, it takes more than one Necron to defeat a rogue shard, while the Emperor did it alone.

You're right, he doesn't because he is on the Golden Throne.

The Emperor did, but he is in Trazyns collection

Impossible. Horus soul was reduced to energy by the Emperor's final attack, and his body destroyed by Abaddon after Bile went all frankenstein on it.

That's what the Alpha Legion want you to think.

Except Abaddon is Black Legion, not Alpha Legion. And the Chaos Powers would know if their greatest enemy isn't on the Golden Throne. The Forces of Chaos would have fallen on Trazyn long before had the Emperor really been in his collection. No, the Emperor is seated on the Golden Throne. He was there to converse with Inquisitor Draco, and He is there to meet the periodic audiences of the Ordo Malleus Inner Circle. And He will die or be restored when the Throne fails, or He will become a god.

Tadashi wrote:Except Abaddon is Black Legion, not Alpha Legion. And the Chaos Powers would know if their greatest enemy isn't on the Golden Throne. The Forces of Chaos would have fallen on Trazyn long before had the Emperor really been in his collection. No, the Emperor is seated on the Golden Throne. He was there to converse with Inquisitor Draco, and He is there to meet the periodic audiences of the Ordo Malleus Inner Circle. And He will die or be restored when the Throne fails, or He will become a god.

Yes, I am fully aware that Abaddon is of the Black Legion thank you very much, I guess you don't know much about the Alpha Legion and how they operate ... Anyhoo, Phoenix Lords ey? Strongest of the Eldar, only one has apparently fallen from their path, they have that over the Primarchs for sure.

And all that talk has to do with Phoenix Lords..?
Once again I ask politely to stay on topic or at least close (some noteworthy Exarchs if PLs have scarce fluff).

As someone said, the Phoexnix Lords certainly have measurably more willpower than the Primarchs. Of 20 Primarchs, 11 turned against humanity. Of 8 Phoenix Lords, only 1 has gone rogue.

thats only cos Chaos dont care enough about the Eldar.. they already got dealt with by Slaanesh

DarknessEternal wrote:As someone said, the Phoexnix Lords certainly have measurably more willpower than the Primarchs. Of 20 Primarchs, 11 turned against humanity. Of 8 Phoenix Lords, only 1 has gone rogue.

Well arguably he(it) didn't go rogue either. It just stayed with the party guys, not the party poopers.

Formosa wrote:thats only cos Chaos dont care enough about the Eldar.. they already got dealt with by Slaanesh

Well said. The Emperor and the Primarchs got the full attention of the Chaos Powers, and the old man still does. Eldar? Only Slaanesh cares on a regular basis.

Chaos focuses more on humanity because it's the easier pray. After the Fall, the Eldar wised up, and now they just sit back and trololo at Chaos' machinations. Humanity on the other hand is moronic by nature, and they're the most numerous group in the galaxy. Why chase something you can't catch when there's a big juicy idiot-steak just sitting there waiting for you to come snatch it?

In any case...

Trying to be rather neutral here...

I really don't think the Phoenix Lords really are equivalent to Primarches, or at least, the more 'epic' ones. They were just entirely too filled with warp/Emperor-ey uberness.

I'd definitely scale them well above your typical Chapter Master - the current golden boys of Draigo (yawn) and Calgar being a bit iffier. Another comparison would be, say, the Sanguinor or Mephiston.

I'd possibly say that The Swarmlord and Ghazghkull top them out though. Well, except for Maugan Ra perhaps, since he's generally publicised as the most awesome.

So yeah, at the top, or fighting within the top ranks of the contemporary characters... However, ultimately, they're not at the truly mythical levels of the Heresy.

As for Maugan's stories, much like some of the other feats you see (I think Calgar have similar stories...), I imagine the tales are a bit like the liberties you hear with the tales of the '300 spartans' - Yeah, there's only 300 spartans, but 10's of thousands of other dudes fighting beside them.

BlaxicanX wrote:Chaos focuses more on humanity because it's the easier pray. After the Fall, the Eldar wised up, and now they just sit back and trololo at Chaos' machinations. Humanity on the other hand is moronic by nature, and they're the most numerous group in the galaxy. Why chase something you can't catch when there's a big juicy idiot-steak just sitting there waiting for you to come snatch it?

Apart from the fact that the three elder Chaos Powers achieved form and sentience because of Mankind? And they fear the potential for order the Emperor represented that would allow Mankind to transcend itself?

How does any of that contradict anything I've said at all?

The former shows they have a personal interest in Mankind. The latter shows they prioritize Mankind over the Eldar.

Frankly, I feel that chaos takes so much interest in man because man for so long was never able to unite into one belief. The Eldar, the Ork, they had their gods and as long as they remained faithful their souls were pretty much untouchable by chaos. It's only when they abandon their gods and go down some path of decadence (you stuck up Eldar pricks you) do they feed, and in that particular case, awaken a god of Chaos. Man however has no unifying religion or belief. Man is scattered, man in his beliefs is chaotic. With no specific deity able to form and be all that humans dedicate themselves to, all that human emotion went and fed and fed and fed the gods of chaos (though frankly, considering human behavior, I'm surprised that Slaanesh didn't awaken at the same time as Khorne). So it wasn't so much that the gods of chaos didn't have an interest in Eldar or Ork or whatever other species you wish to name. It's that man was one of those available to freely nom nom on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on track (sorry!), after some reading, I feel like comparing primarchs and phoenix lords is like comparing a steak knife to a scalpel. It just doesn't really work.

Tadashi wrote:The former shows they have a personal interest in Mankind. The latter shows they prioritize Mankind over the Eldar.

You've still not managed to refute his claim. The only Eldar Chaos can realistically get at are the few Eldar directly in conflict near the Eye, and even then the Craftworlds themselves are mostly out of reach. You're far too eager to protest the strength of the Empire that you do not actually bother with proper answers to others' claims.

The problem with measuring the Empire's "power level" is as I stated that they are the hero underdog so their achievements mean nothing in determining how capable their characters actually are. That's not to mention that it's also off topic.

Well, I personally feel their stats/Specy stuffs on tabletop didn't do the phoenix lords Justice, in a fight in the material realm do to their inherent Squishiness that comes with the ears, they'd get mauled, quite effectively, but with the Eldar's seeing capability that they often employ ( Path of the Seer) not to mention Thousands, upon thousands, upon thousands of years experiance I feel the pheonix lords might, MIGHT be able to win o3o

Thread is being locked due to thread necromancy.