I know it is early, but it between the White Dwarf and other leaks I think we have enough to chime in. What do you guys think, as far as specific units, or tactics for the army as a whole?

My brief thoughts:

Paladins just got much worse - No wound allocation means a 10 man unit cannot take 10 wounds and still be 10 dudes strong. Big big change. The fact that they get a 2+ save to PW in CC doesn't help enough to counter the lack of wound allocation.

Power armored dudes, slightly worse? If PW are AP3, then MCs and Termies are going to be more trouble in CC. Also, since rapid fire got a little better, the SBs aren't as ridiculous as they used to be.

Interceptors, slightly better? Increased potential charge range and get a I10 attack on the assault.

Dreadknight, not sure - Gets 2+ in CC versus PW, gets (maybe) some crazy vector strike attack if teleporter is purchased,

Dreadnoughts, ?? - Easier for them to be destroyed, but then again, easier for the dreads to blow up transports.

Is the PW are AP3 rumor confirmed?

If it is true, then Terminators as troops got alot better.

Paladins lose their wound allocation, but honestly it was a silly mechanic that just got confusing. Gaining immunity to PWs is HUGE however. FnP going to 5+ also hurts them slightly.

Grey Templar wrote:Is the PW are AP3 rumor confirmed?

Don't know, probably not? I don't know what is actually "confirmed" right now. The AP3 thing is all over the place so I consider it likely.

If it is true, then Terminators as troops got alot better.

In CC yes, definitely. They needed that boost since in shooting PAGK were and still are so much better per point spent...

Paladins lose their wound allocation, but honestly it was a silly mechanic that just got confusing. Gaining immunity to PWs is HUGE however. FnP going to 5+ also hurts them slightly.

People took the apothecary? Anyway, no wound allocation is huge! Draigo can't eat lascannon shots, you can't give all the Paladins one wound before any of them die... if two saves are failed, that's one dead Paladin. Well if those two shots came from the same direction at least...

If you were running Draigowing, you took Apothecaries(with full 10 man squads of Paladins)

They are an upgrade thats better the bigger the squad is.


And Draigo can still eat lascannon shots. He just needs to be the closest model.

Just played a game where I shook his Rhinos 4 times in one shooting phase with my dread. I expect the hull points if they work as rumors say to make them alot stronger vs light armor. You no longer need a 5/6 to take it out for good and get the troops out to be shot.

GK Termies im expecting to make a bit of a come back and maybe the dread knight(Prob not) as well since people will need more then a Sargent with a power sword to take them out.

Grey Templar wrote:And Draigo can still eat lascannon shots. He just needs to be the closest model.

Right... which won't be the case much of the time.


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Grey Templar wrote:If you were running Draigowing, you took Apothecaries(with full 10 man squads of Paladins)

They are an upgrade thats better the bigger the squad is.

I saw a rumor that FNP is 5+, but it is for everything that doesn't cause ID, which means it would work against plasma and melta shots. If true that's definitely a bit of a boost for Paladins....

Hasnt the rapid fire rumor been debunked already? Same as 5th.

Am I the only one who likes Draigowing on an aesthetic basis?

I'm still going to use them, looks like I might be pulling off a few arms though, I'm thinking of halberd spam which is cool because it's my favourite weapon choice. Anyone else got an idea on optimal equips now that WA is gone?

Also any info on how the new psyker abilities apply would be good. If it goes too awry for the pallies I might just pull off some of the psycannons and use them as termies (leaving everything else though especially the helms).

Maige wrote:Am I the only one who likes Draigowing on an aesthetic basis?

I'm still going to use them, looks like I might be pulling off a few arms though, I'm thinking of halberd spam which is cool because it's my favourite weapon choice. Anyone else got an idea on optimal equips now that WA is gone?

Also any info on how the new psyker abilities apply would be good. If it goes too awry for the pallies I might just pull off some of the psycannons and use them as termies (leaving everything else though especially the helms).

No, I love Land Raiders and Terminators.

That's pretty much what my army is.

Byte wrote:Hasnt the rapid fire rumor been debunked already? Same as 5th.

People are saying you can move and shoot once at the full distance, which you couldn't do in 5th. Originally people were saying you could stand still and shoot TWICE at the full distance, but that seems not to be the case.


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Maige wrote:I'm still going to use them, looks like I might be pulling off a few arms though, I'm thinking of halberd spam which is cool because it's my favourite weapon choice. Anyone else got an idea on optimal equips now that WA is gone?

Great question! If normal power weapons are AP3, does it make sense to have as many halberds as possible? Striking first is well and good, but if you switch weapons and end up taking a few I4 hits from the enemy using your 2+ save that won't be so bad. Might be better to have some more swords to get 4++ in CC, or more hammers (since halberds and swords aren't going to do much of anything versus MCs or things in 2+ armor).

Well I suppose the jury is out until we have a complete and meticulous confirmation on CCWs and assault allocation.

AFAIK there's been no leak on force weapons although I'm assuming they will be AP3 with ID on activation (which will probably be used more often in order to bypass FnP). Hammer rules have been altered apparently, the extent of which is still unknown although it's pretty obvious they will be at least AP2.

GK TEQs receive no benefit from the new power sword inv (5++) but our swords have always had 4++ although this is not as valuable now that PWs have been demoted.

Which brings me to my last point; Warding Staves. Could go either way depending on how combat allocation works. On one hand they could now be considered overpriced against most opponents because of the lack of AP2 weapons. On the other hand (if allocation allows) they will cause an iron defence by negating the elusive AP2 weapon causing the bulk of our wounds to resolve at 2+, which is an absolute nightmare for the likes of Banshees and Wyches who used to be able to cause a dent in 5th.

We also need to discuss allies....

We didn't really need any buffs, GK was already one of the most competitive lists.

I am looking forward to the changes to shooting, at least if the stuff in the leak is still in, see if it makes the problem of BS3 less of a bother for Coteaz lists.

Since wound allocation shenanigans are gone how should I equip the 30 Paladins I have left unbuilt? I'm thinking 10-man squads with a brother banner, two hammers, seven halberds, and four psycannons. Still on the fence whether or not to include an Apothecary anymore, and there really doesn't seem to be a point of equipping them with swords or warding staves anymore now that you'll be getting the 2+ armor save on most attacks anyhow...

EDIT: Just realized something else, with the new MC rules giving the Dreadknight the Hammer just became a much more viable option...

Paladin deathstars are dead, but I think they can still earn their keep in small units. A unit of 3 or so Paladins with a stave will make for a very resilient tarpit that should keep most enemies bogged down in CC for a while.

185 points nets you three paladins and a stave. With 6 wounds and a 2+ armour save that just got a lot more valuable, it'll take a lot to knock them down or make them run. They won't be killing much, but a unit like that should be able to hold down a unit of boyz (assuming the stave eats the powerklaw) for the better part of a game, or act as a fairly cheap (Paladins and cheap, I know, right?) way of eliminating basic power armour squads.

Oh yeah, and Holocaust.

Just so you guys know, the current rumor is that power SWORDS are AP3, but grant a 5++ in combat, and that power AXES are AP2, but no special save.

Fortitude becomes close to absolute garbage in 6th. Thats a good thing tho since 5pts was so insanely underpriced in 5th edition. Ven.Dreads are also pretty much hosed.

Not really, against Penetrating hits its pretty nice as 1-3 is no damage(and GK vendreds can ignore 1-3)

http://natfka.blogspot.se/2012/06/pics-pages-from-rulebook-force-weapons.html

From this thread:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/3660/456706.page

In short: it's a nerf. Force weapons are AP3 and affected by special rules in the Codex. I'm not sure exactly what it all means, in part because of the way the photos have been framed and in part because the rules don't make much sense. You may need the FAQ to make sense of it.

There isn't even any mention of instant death rules, which is why I think there may be another page with rules pertaining to Force Weapons (you can sort of see it in the bottom left corner of the third picture).

Well, Halberds look like they got even more awsome. +1Str and AP2 in addition to the +2I bonus

Staves are decent too, although only being AP4 is abit of a drag. Still, +2Str and 2+ invuln seems woth it.

Where are you getting this +2S +2I AP2 nonsense from?

Fafnir wrote:Where are you getting this +2S +2I AP2 nonsense from?

We don't know if halberds will count as axes yet. And even if they do, keep in mind, it's not +2I, it's I(1)+2, and for all we know, the initiative being reduced to 1 could happen after any other modifiers, as it is with a powerfist, making it straight up I1.

My guess is that Nemesis halberds will fall under the "special force weapons" rule so they'll be +2 initiative, AP3.

Grey Templar wrote:Not really, against Penetrating hits its pretty nice as 1-3 is no damage(and GK vendreds can ignore 1-3)

Stunned and Shaken is not as big an issue in 6th as they were in 5th so that alone decreases the utility some. 3 glances/pens on a 195pt AV12 walker is not difficult to achive. For instance, a Scatterwalker squadron with guide will statistically kill the Vendread in one go. Paying 60pts for the ability to reroll on the damage table is a joke.Hell, even Holofields, which are vastly superior (and cheaper) than the Ven upgrade is quite useless in 6th.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:My guess is that Nemesis halberds will fall under the "special force weapons" rule so they'll be +2 initiative, AP3.

Yes, they will indeed be AP 3 which is quite clear if you read the paragraph below the table of force weapons.

Fafnir wrote:We don't know if halberds will count as axes yet. And even if they do, keep in mind, it's not +2I, it's I(1)+2, and for all we know, the initiative being reduced to 1 could happen after any other modifiers, as it is with a powerfist, making it straight up I1.

"If it's an axe or halberd, it's a force axe."

It's not a force axe or halberd, it's a Nemesis halberd which is a force weapon with its own Codex rules as specified on that page. Consequently it follows its Codex with the addition of being AP3.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:My guess is that Nemesis halberds will fall under the "special force weapons" rule so they'll be +2 initiative, AP3.

yes.

If the new proper rules for flyers and skimmers are true then the Stormraven is a viable option (even though its an ugly build). Full infantry loadout with IC makes dealing with pesky long range peeps easier. Add a Dreadnought with flamer loadouts and I think you could clear a good portion of the board in one turn. I know the Dreadnought probably wouldn't last long, but if it distracts fire and takes a few units with its probably worth it. Perfect for armies that don't want to enter CC with you. All his assault troops would be in forward positions.

Also looking at adding a IG Platoon. Pure cannon fodder. Only problem would be is that they don't have the best alliance, which means low LD

I'm a little iffy about Stormravens actually. Depends if they can enter hover mode when they arrive or not. They start in reserves, and when they come in if they have any troops in them they can't disembark (assuming they can't enter hover mode on arrival). Then an AA gun shoots them out of the sky and everyone on board dies more often than not. Protecting flying transports is gonna be a high priority in 6th... I'll have to keep it in mind when I get my Stormeagle.

Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

I honestly doubt halberds will be axes. If they are, that's a substantial nerf to Purifiers and the like.

Grey Templar wrote:I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

Im sorry but anyone who think that halberds will be AP2 and +2I is seriously deluding themselves.

Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

tedurur wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

Im sorry but anyone who think that halberds will be AP2 and +2I is seriously deluding themselves.

Or they're Mat Ward.

The hammers will be AP2, after all they are merely psychic thunder hammers. Swords, falchions and halberds will be AP3.

Basically this is being done so that no one can really deal with terminators (unless they can generate tons of wounds) until the terminators have had a chance to swing. It's part of making terminators good again.

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

Actually, the codex says they act like Thunderhammers from the rulebook. They'll be AP2.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

I thought about that. The idea of the always taken Psyriflemen getting replaced by anything is beautiful. Dreadknights cost a lot of points but they're better than before. It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Fafnir wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

Actually, the codex says they act like Thunderhammers from the rulebook. They'll be AP2.

And the rulebook says all force weapons with special rules not described in the rulebook are AP3. It needs an FAQ.

I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Fetterkey wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:Grey Knight force weapons fall under the "special force weapon" classification, so they're all AP3. Note that this means that Grey Knights have no method of dealing with 2+ saves, since their Nemesis Dæmonhammer is a special force weapon and therefore AP3. Hopefully, this will get an FAQ, but it could very well just be a new weakness for the Grey Knights.

Actually, the codex says they act like Thunderhammers from the rulebook. They'll be AP2.

And the rulebook says all force weapons with special rules not described in the rulebook are AP3. It needs an FAQ.

Specific>General will make the Hammers be AP2.

Halberds are what will need FAQing.

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

Fetterkey wrote:I honestly doubt halberds will be axes. If they are, that's a substantial nerf to Purifiers and the like.

Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease...

Fetterkey wrote:

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

They can't embark in transports, join units or have abilites used on them. Just saying....

acekevin8412 wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

They can't embark in transports, join units or have abilites used on them. Just saying....

I'd take guard allies just to take a squadron of Hydras, and still take a units of vets, maybe heavy weapons teams for more cheap long range fire.

tedurur wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I can all but garuntee they wil Eratta the Daemon Hammer to be AP2 and Halberds to be Axes in addition to their rules. Otherwise it completely breaks the GK army.

If they don't it means I'll need to bring vanilla terminators to the game just so I have an answer for 2+ saves.

Im sorry but anyone who think that halberds will be AP2 and +2I is seriously deluding themselves.

Whether they are +2I or not, the rulebook says that they (halberds) count as Force Axes, which means AP2 and +1S.

So let me get this straight. What other Force Halberds do you know of aside from Nemesis Force Halberds? Boy, you guys sure are reaching, ha. There is only one Force Halberd that I know of from any Codex, and that's Nemesis Force Halberds. Sure, the rulebook is -EXTREMELY- poorly written in this entry and it is grounds for confusion, but when I saw Halberds, I couldn't think of anything else. It's clearly clarifying GK weapons.

It really would be quite nice if that's the case.

Purifiers get a nerf (let's face it, they're currently one of, if not the best unit in the game, they need it), and GKT in general get a nice little buff against 2+ armour, making them the 'swiss armyknife' of heavy infantry, and Paladins with halberds will actually have a chance of being viable, since they will now possess the ability to knock out their biggest CC threat before it hits them, making those 2 wounds actually worth having.

Also, S6 Grey Knights just makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

I don't see how going from I6 power weapons at S4 to I3 AP2 at S5 is going to be a nerf when the meta shifts to I1 for killing TEQs.

It'll be a nerf for purifiers, who don't reap the benefits of the increased survivability of a 2+ save, and thus really appreciate striking at I6.

It's all about context. Terminators now don't really care about being first in CC, but Purifiers really want it, because they don't have nearly as much to fall back on.

Both will perform equally against other terminators, but against everything that will be hitting at I4+, Purifiers take a significant hit.

The only things striking at initiative will be CCWs, which means Purifiers can fall back on their 3+ save.

Unless people actually get Power Swords.

Yes, but the thing is that based on the context of how the new weapons work, and the various threats that each unit faces, halberds functioning as axes has more and more pronounced benefits for terminators than it does for purifiers.

Go pick up the old Marine Librarians. They have a variety of weapons including swords, axes and staves.

If you have a model that looks like a halberd then it's an axe. You strike at initiative 1, gain +1 strength, and count as AP2.

If you have a "Nemesis" force halberd you have the rules from their rule book which gives you a +2 initiative bonus, you strike at base strength, and you count as AP3.

The only Grey Knight models who have generic force weapons are Inquisitors IIRC and they would have the sword/axe/stave option.

Fafnir wrote:Yes, but the thing is that based on the context of how the new weapons work, and the various threats that each unit faces, halberds functioning as axes has more and more pronounced benefits for terminators than it does for purifiers.

That may well be true, it still doesn't mean that Purifiers were nerfed. There just might be better options in the Codex now. The internal balance shifted. It could be that Terminators got buffed rather than Purifiers getting nerfed.

But we'd have to see how the meta plays out and basically how many Power Swords you're going to be dealing with. Because it's pretty obvious that a unit of GKSS would be a bigger problem for Halberdier Purifiers than it would be for a unit of Terminators. So now the question is are people going to buy Power Swords. If they aren't it's not really a problem for MEQs.

It also does make halberds a viable option for things that arn't Purifiers.

Previously, they were way too expensive for Strike and Interceptor squads to take. Now they will be worth the price tag.

Falchions still suck. PLEASE GW, rescind your damning FAQ.

I'm looking at my Purgation squads again. If mech won't be as prevalent (which certainly seems likely given the rules for Hull Points) I predict Incinerators will be the new black. Purgation squads and Interceptors get big benefits from the new rules regarding overwatch fire with these weapons. The Interceptors mobility also means you get to hit characters who may be hiding in the rear.

For the record, I think that halberds shouldn't have been lumped with axes. A halberd extends one's reach and let's you hit before, ie at a higher initiative than a normal opponent.

acekevin8412 wrote:For the record, I think that halberds shouldn't have been lumped with axes. A halberd extends one's reach and let's you hit before, ie at a higher initiative than a normal opponent.

If we were to be perfectly realistic here, halberds would hit harder as well as faster. As far as medieval weaponry goes, halberds were just pretty badass.

But they're POWER halberds....lol yeah I forgot that part, but no known weapon today increases its user's strength, at least known to me. Maybe if you're swinging it around it produces more force? I forgot what I learned about torque and what not from Physics.

Well, no weapon properly increases your strength, but it's the force of the blow that matters. You take a long rod, put a fairly heavy blade on the end, and swing that thing around and it'll hit like a truck. Likewise, halberds aren't particularly fast weapons (in fact, their size and awkward displacement of weight makes them somewhat unwieldy), but more than make up for it with their long reach.

I would imagine that a halberd would be dropped and exchanged for a sidearm once an enemy closed in enough.

I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

Is it confirmed they get those snazzy 'Vector Strike' attacks? The DK isn't a winged MC. Also, they are still vulnerable to plasma, which may be taken in higher amounts now.

On the other hand they don't have to worry about power weapons in CC anymore, only fists and hammers. And supposedly they are MC Characters so they may be able to challenge other characters?


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Fetterkey wrote:

l0k1 wrote:I'd say melta/plasma Henchmen just got a lot more competitive. Paladins took a hit. We'll see how bad of a hit once we have all the official rules. Though Stormravens are now considered fliers so that helps their survivability. Dreads took a hit with the hull points stuff.

Henchmen are probably useless now that you can take real IG Veterans instead of fake ones via the Allies rules.

But then you have to take another HQ and whatnot. I still see henchmen being useful. Although I am puzzled why l0ki thinks melta henchmen got more competitive. Why? If glancing can more easily destroy vehicles why would short range melta be better?


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Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

No one in the 'rumor' thread has found it in the book, and several people in there obviously have the book.

Well DKs can move like JI if they get Teliporters. I don't see why they won't get a Vector Strike.

Grey Templar wrote:Well DKs can move like JI if they get Teliporters. I don't see why they won't get a Vector Strike.

I don't either, but I am unclear on the rule, and what a 'Flying' or 'Winged' MC includes. It should get that rule IMHO, even if the DK is more like jump infantry than anything...


I think it will be funny if DKs can challenge ICs though. Especially if the IC only has a power sword, that's 2+ saves for the DK. And unlike the Lone Wolf, which is also rumored to be able to challenge characters, the DK with a teleporter is mobile enough to make it happen.

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Yep, doesn't exist.

Logic is an illusion in the worlds that GW creates.

Fetterkey wrote:

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Yep, doesn't exist.

Which is really a shame as it would have made swords on PAGKs a useful option.

Grey Templar wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

Yep, doesn't exist.

Which is really a shame as it would have made swords on PAGKs a useful option.

On Strike Squads against a lot of things they are plenty useful!

@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

l0k1 wrote:@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

People aren't going to completely stop playing vehicles. And if they did, henchmen would be shot off the board in two seconds with their low toughness and armor saves if they had to footslog.

Therion wrote:It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Have you ever seen dragon ball z? Teleport punch ftw!

I wonder what the power level of a teleporting dreadknight is...

Dok wrote:

Therion wrote:It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Have you ever seen dragon ball z? Teleport punch ftw!

I wonder what the power level of a teleporting dreadknight is...

shoot, I'll take the bait.

"IT'S OVER 9000!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Joe Mama wrote:

l0k1 wrote:@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

People aren't going to completely stop playing vehicles. And if they did, henchmen would be shot off the board in two seconds with their low toughness and armor saves if they had to footslog.

Sorry about that, it was supposed to say people won't stop playing them lol

l0k1 wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:

l0k1 wrote:@Joe Mama 2+ armor saves are going to become big. Terminators and stuff in artificer armor are going to be rough. Vehicles are going to be a bit softer but people are going to completely stop playing them. Plasma/Melta Henchmen may not be the dominant theme but they will become for more useful because of how cheap they are.

People aren't going to completely stop playing vehicles. And if they did, henchmen would be shot off the board in two seconds with their low toughness and armor saves if they had to footslog.

Sorry about that, it was supposed to say people won't stop playing them lol

LOL. That makes a lot more sense then.

Joey wrote:

sudojoe wrote:I'm thinking some force swords will be pretty good actually since it gives everything a 5++ parry save that then gets buffed to a 4++. Even with facing AP3, your PAGKs (purifiers/ss/interceptors) will get a bit stronger defensively in CC. Somewhat of a net nothing for termies as they already have a 5++ > 4++ save.

I thought the 5++ parry was confirmed as being wrong?

yup its wrong, no 5++ from having a power weapon

I think GK were a bit unbalanced in 5th, and the book was written to be a strong competitive 6th ed book (but not as good as it was in 5th)

I see several possible things giving GK problems, and some things that will not give GK problems.

If Draigo is in front in a draigowing he's not vulnerable to volume of fire at tacks from rapid fire weapons due to his 2+ look out sir roll followed by his 2+ armor save. That part is fine. What's not fine is TH/SS termies will tear up paladins now that their I4 and I6 force weapons are AP3.

Deathwing will give severe problems to all GK builds.

Allied attachments consisting of an eldar farseer with runes of warding would ruin a GK army, and will be incredibly common unless GW nerfs runes of warding.

Pure paladin + psyfleman builds won't work against air if psyflemen don't get skyfire.

GK have no brothers in arms as allies.

GK still seem like a top tier codex, but in a really competitive environment like a tournament I think the % of players playing GK will drop in half.

Fafnir wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:For the record, I think that halberds shouldn't have been lumped with axes. A halberd extends one's reach and let's you hit before, ie at a higher initiative than a normal opponent.

If we were to be perfectly realistic here, halberds would hit harder as well as faster. As far as medieval weaponry goes, halberds were just pretty badass.

Not quite. They hit harder and at a higher velocity, however, due to inertia and some other physical property that I cannot precisely describe related to the length of the radius in radial acceleration, halberds actually would not be "faster" in the sense that you would be able to put out more strikes.

They also have more reach.

But in my reading of medieval military tech, it seems to me that the strength of the halberd or poleaxe came from its Swiss army knife configuration that allowed it to have reach, which is useful as a cavalry deterrent, and its ability to crack open armor with the hammer/pickaxe end located opposite the axehead.

roughly a minute in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=pCIvsBI0SgI#t=75s

Given that initiative is a combination of speed, reaction time, combat instincts, I think that giving a halberd an initiative advantage is sensible enough. But likewise I think the descriptor "unwieldy" seems fairly accurate, so I think you'd end up somewhere in the middle, eh?

So guys, anyone have to rulebook and clarify how Halberds are being treated?

AP2 like axes or AP3 like swords?

Hopefully vector strike actually works for DKs, every time I've brought them I've thought they are a massive waste of points.

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, anyone have to rulebook and clarify how Halberds are being treated?

AP2 like axes or AP3 like swords?

Hopefully vector strike actually works for DKs, every time I've brought them I've thought they are a massive waste of points.

We can't know until a FAQ. Knowing GW, it could very easily go either way.

Fafnir wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So guys, anyone have to rulebook and clarify how Halberds are being treated?

AP2 like axes or AP3 like swords?

Hopefully vector strike actually works for DKs, every time I've brought them I've thought they are a massive waste of points.

We can't know until a FAQ. Knowing GW, it could very easily go either way.

Well I guess that will be tomorrow, right?

Won't halberds basically be terrible against terminators if they aren't AP2? Hammernators are going to be even more of a nightmare than they are now!

Oh, and for the record, it looks like fists have the same 'unwieldy' rule that axes have. If that's the case, I suddenly no longer think that the Initiative bonus from halberds would apply, if they were axes. Since I'm reading the book page by page, I'll have to read the actual unwieldy rule itself. But right now, it's not looking good.

Therion wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Do GK's now drop the Psyriflemen and load up on Flying Dreadknights?

I thought about that. The idea of the always taken Psyriflemen getting replaced by anything is beautiful. Dreadknights cost a lot of points but they're better than before. It's hard to imagine how the Dreadknight flies though. It keeps teleporting upwards into the air before it falls and crashes on the ground and dies?

Now that I can see the rules, I see that Flying MC's are different than Jump MC's, very interesting. Even still, the dreads die much more easily now, and Psycannons once they're deployed up the field (Deep Striking) can put enough glances to kill vehicles I think, so maybe the best HS choice is now the Jumping Dread Knight, the heavy Psycannon is better against vehicles, it still gets a good set of saves, and is pretty insane in combat.

So follow up question - is GK's new best build basically GreyWing, lots of Terminators?

So, are Landraiders significantly weaker now with this hullpoints change? It seems like it...

Also, not a fan of how a lucky pen can still take out a landraider in one shot. If that wasn't the case, I wouldn't think they were THAT much weaker.

Make me sad since I really enjoy carting around paladins/terminators in my 4 landraiders.

Fafnir wrote:Oh, and for the record, it looks like fists have the same 'unwieldy' rule that axes have. If that's the case, I suddenly no longer think that the Initiative bonus from halberds would apply, if they were axes. Since I'm reading the book page by page, I'll have to read the actual unwieldy rule itself. But right now, it's not looking good.

Well, since Halberds would need an FAQ to be Axes anyway(because they are special force weapons) I can't imagine GW would make their Inititive boost useless. So they will end up either being as they are now OR they will be +1Str AP2 at I3(down to 1, +2 to I3)

Possibly.

As it reads now though, all attacks made with "unwieldy" weapons are made at I1.

Which Nemesis Halberds are not because they arn't technically axes, but rather are other force weapons as covered by the paragraph after the table(meaning they are AP3 and follow all their normal rules)

So since the UK is way ahead of us, think we will see the FAQs sometime tonight?

If GW were on the ball and didn't have a completely irrational phobia of the internet, yes.

Here's GreyWing at 1850, just for sillyness:

Libby with 3 Powers, 2 Servo Skulls
10 GK Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 10 Hammers (Combat Squad)
10 GK Terminators, 2 Psycannons, Psybolt Ammo, 10 Hammers (Combat Squad)
Dread Knight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon
Dread Knight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon
Dread Knight, Personal Teleporter, Heavy Psycannon

That makes a great set of allies too, or maybe I'm just looking for an excuse to convert me up some Dreadknights

Also, Draigowing will be more reslient then ever, so long as you can keep Draigo up front. With LOS, you can spread wounds around however you want without having to equip each Paladin differently, and with LOS, you can choose to have Draigo eat all the pesky S8+ weaponry fired at him, instead of being forced to have him take one and spread the others. FNP is considerably weaker (and I would argue not worth taking), but that's not enough to cripple the build.

Just keep Draigo up front, and Draigowing should still work fairly well.

Halberds are AP3, it says under the force weapon rules, at least from my understanding of how the following is worded:

"If a Force weapon has it's on unique close combat rules, treat it as an Ap3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and Characteristics presented in it's entry"

Fafnir wrote:Also, Draigowing will be more reslient then ever, so long as you can keep Draigo up front. With LOS, you can spread wounds around however you want without having to equip each Paladin differently, and with LOS, you can choose to have Draigo eat all the pesky S8+ weaponry fired at him, instead of being forced to have him take one and spread the others. FNP is considerably weaker (and I would argue not worth taking), but that's not enough to cripple the build.

Just keep Draigo up front, and Draigowing should still work fairly well.

FNP got worse but better. You can now use it on anything except for weapons/attacks that would cause instant death.

Sasori wrote:Halberds are AP3, it says under the force weapon rules, at least from my understanding of how the following is worded:

"If a Force weapon has it's on unique close combat rules, treat it as an Ap3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and Characteristics presented in it's entry"

Except in the power weapon descriptions they say, if the weapon is a HALBERD or axe, it is treated as an axe.

Are there any other Halberds besides what GK use in the entirety of 40k?

If that is the case, its +1s 1I+2; which isn't bad.

I don't see why'd they specially call out Halberds in the rules for axes; but I guess we will have to wait for the FAQ.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Sasori wrote:Halberds are AP3, it says under the force weapon rules, at least from my understanding of how the following is worded:

"If a Force weapon has it's on unique close combat rules, treat it as an Ap3 Melee weapon with the additional rules and Characteristics presented in it's entry"

Except in the power weapon descriptions they say, if the weapon is a HALBERD or axe, it is treated as an axe.

Are there any other Halberds besides what GK use in the entirety of 40k?

If that is the case, its +1s 1I+2; which isn't bad.

I don't see why'd they specially call out Halberds in the rules for axes; but I guess we will have to wait for the FAQ.

Ok but a Halberd is a Force weapon, first and foremost right? Being a power weapon, is just being a byproduct of being a Force weapon.

It's really not worth arguing. Because of the ambiguous language that GW chooses to use, we can't possibly know either way until the FAQ comes out.

But in my reading of medieval military tech, it seems to me that the strength of the halberd or poleaxe came from its Swiss army knife configuration that allowed it to have reach, which is useful as a cavalry deterrent, and its ability to crack open armor with the hammer/pickaxe end located opposite the axehead.

Despite their name Nemesis Halberds are not actually a halberd (an axe and a spear tip on a polearm) per se but sword lances like the Naginata. While they still packed quite some punch they weren't designed to simply crush an enemies massive armor with sheer force like an Euroean halberd but rather to easily cut off the legs of horses and men while still being as deadly as a Katana with longer reach. Unlike the unwieldy halberds sword lances are extremly fast weapons (I like to think that's where the +2 I buff is coming from) in the hand of a skilled fighter, just watch a youtube video of any naginata-do fight.

Something else which hasn't been mentioned yet: In the new rules models equiped with DCCWs double their strength just like when using a Power Fist. Nothing about only walkers being affected. Seems like the Doomfists will be the to go weapons of Dreadknights again.

Fafnir wrote:It's really not worth arguing. Because of the ambiguous language that GW chooses to use, we can't possibly know either way until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know, I think it's pretty specific.

I mean, the GK's don't have "Force Halberds" They have "Nemesis Force Halberds" which bestow the extra rule of adding +2 init. It seems very clear, RAW right now, that it's an AP3 Force weapon, as the NFH is very specific, while the "Force Axes/Halberds" are a lot more general, since it's quite likely that future pyskers will have the options of getting a Force Axe, stave, or Maul.

Sasori wrote:

Fafnir wrote:It's really not worth arguing. Because of the ambiguous language that GW chooses to use, we can't possibly know either way until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know, I think it's pretty specific.

I mean, the GK's don't have "Force Halberds" They have "Nemesis Force Halberds" which bestow the extra rule of adding +2 init. It seems very clear, RAW right now, that it's an AP3 Force weapon, as the NFH is very specific, while the "Force Axes/Halberds" are a lot more general, since it's quite likely that future pyskers will have the options of getting a Force Axe, stave, or Maul.

And GW ruled directly against RAW for falchions. It could just as easily go in either direction.

Fafnir wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Fafnir wrote:It's really not worth arguing. Because of the ambiguous language that GW chooses to use, we can't possibly know either way until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know, I think it's pretty specific.

I mean, the GK's don't have "Force Halberds" They have "Nemesis Force Halberds" which bestow the extra rule of adding +2 init. It seems very clear, RAW right now, that it's an AP3 Force weapon, as the NFH is very specific, while the "Force Axes/Halberds" are a lot more general, since it's quite likely that future pyskers will have the options of getting a Force Axe, stave, or Maul.

And GW ruled directly against RAW for falchions. It could just as easily go in either direction.

They didn't - the 'pair of falchions' gave +1 attack, you were not getting 2x single falchions to give +1 attack for an extra ccw and +1 attack for the rule.

Similarly the NFW follow their own rules and are AP3 - you cannot have your cake and eat it by applying both sets of rules.

Phototoxin wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Fafnir wrote:It's really not worth arguing. Because of the ambiguous language that GW chooses to use, we can't possibly know either way until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know, I think it's pretty specific.

I mean, the GK's don't have "Force Halberds" They have "Nemesis Force Halberds" which bestow the extra rule of adding +2 init. It seems very clear, RAW right now, that it's an AP3 Force weapon, as the NFH is very specific, while the "Force Axes/Halberds" are a lot more general, since it's quite likely that future pyskers will have the options of getting a Force Axe, stave, or Maul.

And GW ruled directly against RAW for falchions. It could just as easily go in either direction.

They didn't - the 'pair of falchions' gave +1 attack, you were not getting 2x single falchions to give +1 attack for an extra ccw and +1 attack for the rule.

Similarly the NFW follow their own rules and are AP3 - you cannot have your cake and eat it by applying both sets of rules.

They did rule against the RAW with Falchions as we beaten to death quite vividly in the discussion thread. The opposition to +2A quite simply had no argument to stand on while those in favor had a rock solid case. GW just arbitrarily ruled it the way they did.

Quite simply, this is a sticky situation here. RAW is clear that NFWs are all AP3(except for Daemonhammers and Doomfists) but GW could very well FAQ that. It is fairly clear that they intended NF Halberds to be Force Axes, but got the rules messed up again.

Only time will tell what GW will do with this, but till they do I will play it as if they were axes(+1Str and I1+2), unless my perusal of the rule book later tonight reveals new information.

I'm surprised you're actually willing to play 6th ed without FAQs. Too much stuff that just won't work right, as far as I'm concerned. Even if GK was written for 6th.

Grey Templar wrote:

Phototoxin wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Sasori wrote:

Fafnir wrote:It's really not worth arguing. Because of the ambiguous language that GW chooses to use, we can't possibly know either way until the FAQ comes out.

I don't know, I think it's pretty specific.

I mean, the GK's don't have "Force Halberds" They have "Nemesis Force Halberds" which bestow the extra rule of adding +2 init. It seems very clear, RAW right now, that it's an AP3 Force weapon, as the NFH is very specific, while the "Force Axes/Halberds" are a lot more general, since it's quite likely that future pyskers will have the options of getting a Force Axe, stave, or Maul.

And GW ruled directly against RAW for falchions. It could just as easily go in either direction.

They didn't - the 'pair of falchions' gave +1 attack, you were not getting 2x single falchions to give +1 attack for an extra ccw and +1 attack for the rule.

Similarly the NFW follow their own rules and are AP3 - you cannot have your cake and eat it by applying both sets of rules.

They did rule against the RAW with Falchions as we beaten to death quite vividly in the discussion thread. The opposition to +2A quite simply had no argument to stand on while those in favor had a rock solid case. GW just arbitrarily ruled it the way they did.

Quite simply, this is a sticky situation here. RAW is clear that NFWs are all AP3(except for Daemonhammers and Doomfists) but GW could very well FAQ that. It is fairly clear that they intended NF Halberds to be Force Axes, but got the rules messed up again.

Only time will tell what GW will do with this, but till they do I will play it as if they were axes(+1Str and I1+2), unless my perusal of the rule book later tonight reveals new information.

So, despite the fact that by RAW, it's wrong (A fact which you admit) You're still going to purposely play it incorrectly? That's called cheating.

I suspect the "falchions give +1 attack" people simply got tired of arguing. Without a preset limit it's too easy for a person to keep repeating the same argument till the other people give up, then claim victory. Happens a lot on the internet.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I suspect the "falchions give +1 attack" people simply got tired of arguing. Without a preset limit it's too easy for a person to keep repeating the same argument till the other people give up, then claim victory. Happens a lot on the internet.

Or, you know, they were wrong. That happens too.

So Paladins aren't as hosed as people thought...

Turns out that every Paladin model is considered a character... and gets "Look Out, Sir!" The shenanigans will continue! /lol

Gornall wrote:So Paladins aren't as hosed as people thought...

Turns out that every Paladin model is considered a character... and gets "Look Out, Sir!" The shenanigans will continue! /lol

Holy gak serious?

lol

Gornall wrote:So Paladins aren't as hosed as people thought...

Turns out that every Paladin model is considered a character... and gets "Look Out, Sir!" The shenanigans will continue! /lol

Where is the confirmation for this?

Fafnir wrote:

Gornall wrote:So Paladins aren't as hosed as people thought...

Turns out that every Paladin model is considered a character... and gets "Look Out, Sir!" The shenanigans will continue! /lol

Where is the confirmation for this?

Paladins count as infantry characters, and thus, may make a look out sir! on a 4+ even if the unit is comprised of nothing but characters. page 16/26

Are characters eligible recipients of Look Out Sir! wounds though?

Andy06r wrote:Are characters eligible recipients of Look Out Sir! wounds though?

Yes, otherwise a Unit that was comprised completely of characters wouldn't be able to.

It specifically states that other characters may take the wound.

Andy06r wrote:Are characters eligible recipients of Look Out Sir! wounds though?

Yes, although you may only pass a wound once.

And what I'm asking is, where does it confirm that Paladins are characters?

Because if that's the case, they just got all kinds of ridiculous; with precision strikes, individual challenges (and the ability to hide fragile ICs from challenges...) and a bunch of other nice bonuses.

Fafnir wrote:

Andy06r wrote:Are characters eligible recipients of Look Out Sir! wounds though?

Yes, although you may only pass a wound once.

And what I'm asking is, where does it confirm that Paladins are characters?

The Appendix on page 410.

Fafnir wrote:

Andy06r wrote:Are characters eligible recipients of Look Out Sir! wounds though?

Yes, although you may only pass a wound once.

And what I'm asking is, where does it confirm that Paladins are characters?

Because if that's the case, they just got all kinds of ridiculous; with precision strikes, individual challenges (and the ability to hide fragile ICs from challenges...) and a bunch of other nice bonuses.

In the back, under their entry it has INF(CH)

For real?!!

I don't have access to the appendix.....

Can we get a quote confirm?

Ah, that would explain a fair bit. The "version" of the book I am currently reading does not seem to contain that section...

Well, Paladins are still wicked. Nice to hear that.

I was just planning on forcing wound allocation via LOS on Draigo, but now that I can do it with any model in the unit (albeit with somewhat lower rate of success), that makes things considerably easier. Especially since I don't have to be so strict about covering my sides/rear.

Fafnir wrote:Ah, that would explain a fair bit. The "version" of the book I am currently reading does not seem to contain that section...

huehuehuehuehuehue same here.

If it is true then Draigowing just got BETTER.

Oh boy...

Maige wrote:For real?!!

I don't have access to the appendix.....

Can we get a quote confirm?

I have the rulebook, and I just gave you what it says in the entry.

Maige wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Ah, that would explain a fair bit. The "version" of the book I am currently reading does not seem to contain that section...

huehuehuehuehuehue same here.

If it is true then Draigowing just got BETTER.

Oh boy...

Draigowing was never the prize pig of the GK codex. It packs a lot of survivability and raw killpower, but has virtually no mobility and its presence on the table is limited to a single quarter at a time. I would argue that Paladins are actually decently balanced, all things considered.

The main offenders are really purifiers and Psyriflemen. Purifiers are simply some of, if not the best infantry in the game, all while being priced very competitively, and Psyriflemen require no explanation.

Fafnir wrote:

Maige wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Ah, that would explain a fair bit. The "version" of the book I am currently reading does not seem to contain that section...

huehuehuehuehuehue same here.

If it is true then Draigowing just got BETTER.

Oh boy...

Draigowing was never the prize pig of the GK codex. It packs a lot of survivability and raw killpower, but has virtually no mobility and its presence on the table is limited to a single quarter at a time. I would argue that Paladins are actually decently balanced, all things considered.

The main offenders are really purifiers and Psyriflemen. Purifiers are simply some of, if not the best infantry in the game, all while being priced very competitively, and Psyriflemen require no explanation.

Not to mention the fact that you have to roll a 4+ to transfer the wound.

Yeah I think it's well established that Crowewing > Draigowing but I still used the Pallies because they appealed to me for other reasons.

@Sasori (my favourite Akatsuki member btw)

With the INF(CH) thing, does that apply to any other units you can see? Does it also apply to plain Terminators?

Does this mean that rolling wounds on Paladins will be unbelievably tedious?

Shoot a paladin squad with 30 bolters, getting 20 wounds.

Will you have to 4+ LOS, allocate, and then roll to wound EACH wound (or in batches of two if the lead man has both wounds remaining?).

/Groans

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Maige wrote:

Fafnir wrote:Ah, that would explain a fair bit. The "version" of the book I am currently reading does not seem to contain that section...

huehuehuehuehuehue same here.

If it is true then Draigowing just got BETTER.

Oh boy...

Draigowing was never the prize pig of the GK codex. It packs a lot of survivability and raw killpower, but has virtually no mobility and its presence on the table is limited to a single quarter at a time. I would argue that Paladins are actually decently balanced, all things considered.

The main offenders are really purifiers and Psyriflemen. Purifiers are simply some of, if not the best infantry in the game, all while being priced very competitively, and Psyriflemen require no explanation.

Not to mention the fact that you have to roll a 4+ to transfer the wound.

Still gives them quite a buff to survivability, not to mention you don't HAVE to diversify them anymore.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Not to mention the fact that you have to roll a 4+ to transfer the wound.

Which is why you have Draigo sit at the front to pass it on a 2+.

EDIT: I just realized, wound allocation isn't just still in the game, it actually got buffed. Not only do you not need to spend on upgrades to differentiate the squad, but more importantly, since you'll generally be using the same save against most weapons, you can roll to save before you pass on any wounds. This is huge, since it allows you to allocate wounds without having to worry about nasty surprises, like having two rolls allocated to a guy who rolls double 1s.

Well yeah, Allo-shenanigans in 5th still had its limits.

For example if you were hit by two meltas and less than 9 other shots, you'd have to take a melta on one of your palls and potentially waste a wound.

Now we can take both on Draigo.

EDIT: @ Fafnir
I haven't had time to scour the rules in a meticulous sense yet. Is the LOS save done after a failed save?

Andy06r wrote:Does this mean that rolling wounds on Paladins will be unbelievably tedious?

Shoot a paladin squad with 30 bolters, getting 20 wounds.

Will you have to 4+ LOS, allocate, and then roll to wound EACH wound (or in batches of two if the lead man has both wounds remaining?).

/Groans

It's

Roll wounds

Allocate wounds to unit (Yes, all 20 wounds)

Roll LoS dice for each one (roll in a batch, you only get ONE ROLL PER WOUND PERIOD)

Dole out wounds afterwords if they pass.

Oh crap just checked it can be unsaved

Now I'm trying to figure out how tedious this will be....

Okay, so what's the significance of the phrasing "wound (or unsaved wound)" in regards to Look Out Sir?

Is this how it works?

Take 20 wounds, roll 20 saves.

Am left with 12 wounds.

Start with the closest model. Roll for each wound, one at a time. On a 4+ I can choose which model (within 6") takes that wound, on a 1, 2, or 3, the wound must be taken by that model. When that model dies, move on to the next closest model.

This seems to me how it works, but I don't get why they placed the words "wound, or unsaved wound" at the start. Why would I try to allocate wounds from Look Out Sir before I knew if the models would pass their save or not?

The difference depends on how the wounds are allocated. In other words, if you're using mixed saves or not. If you have all the same save, you roll after the save has been made. If they have different saves, you have to allocate before (which is why my theory of Ghaz making a unit of Boyz lolbroken fell didn't work... yet).

Fafnir wrote:The difference depends on how the wounds are allocated. In other words, if you're using mixed saves or not. If you have all the same save, you roll after the save has been made. If they have different saves, you have to allocate before (which is why my theory of Ghaz making a unit of Boyz lolbroken fell didn't work... yet).

Well, reading through the rules you could place a 2+ save independent character at the front of a unit of 5+ save models.

Since they have different saves, each wound is resolved individually.

So you allocate a wound to the closest model. He takes his save. If he fails, you can then take a 2+ LoS check to move the wound to a 5+ model.

Keep doing this until all the wounds are gone.

I can't find anything saying you have to allocate wounds before saves are taken.

The key word (and what I originally missed) is 'allocate,' and when you do it. For models with different saves, they are allocated before the save rolls are actually made, which means you have to roll for LOS before the save is made. In cases where models have the same save, wounds are allocated after the save rolls are made, so you do the LOS rolls then.

Ah, I see. For units with an identical save, saves are taken before allocation, while in mixed save units they are taken after allocation. And LoS is done at the allocation stage.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Something else to consider with paladins: 6's to hit become precision shots/strikes. Another layer of complication, but also another boost.

Other way around, but you got it.

Also, precision strikes sounds like it could end up swinging the tide of some fights in a really good way, especially since, with NFW, instant death is so easy to throw around. Get into close combat and spread the wounds around to every model in the unit, if they're multi-wound, or to the enemy characters if not.

Also, being characters means they can challenge, which means you can send a single Paladin in to a unit of Boyz, challenge the nob, kill him, and then proceed to wreck the rest of the unit for the rest of the game. Effectively taking the ~210 point unit of boyz out for 55 points.

Paladins being characters has given them so much utility, it's strange to go against the cynicism I hold for 6th edition, but the tactical depth that Paladins are getting could make them a really interesting unit this edition, and so much more than a simple glacier of a beatstick.

FAQ is already out.

Halberds are not going to be treated like axes, just like unusual psy weapons. I would paste directly from the FAQ, but I'm reading it in spanish.

–
Nemesis
Force
Weapons,
Force
Weapons.
Change
the
first
sentence
to
read
“Unless
otherwise
stated,
all
Nemesis
weapons
are
Unusual
Force
Weapons,
as
detailed
in
the
Warhammer
40,000
rulebook.”


Page
61

Thats a tad annoying.

So Nemisis weapons are just AP3(except for Hammers and Doomfists) right now



In other news, Stormravens are AMAZING!!!

They are probably the best flyer currently. AV12 is a toughnut for other flyers and many AA weaponry to crack. Although its very bad when they blow up.


Missile Launchers have gotten a 3rd ammo type, called Flakk, which is Str7 AP4 Skyfire(hits Flyers on normal BS) Only Missile launchers got this, Clyclone and Typhoon launchers don't have Flakk missiles.

Longfangs are all SWs need to deal with flyers. Dreadnought missile launchers are decent too.



You need to be very careful when positioning your models within the units. Casualties are removed from the closest models.

The closest model takes saves till he dies and then the next closest model takes saves till he dies and so on.

So characters/special weapons can get taken out if they are close to the enemy.



And for Dreadknights, Doomfists now give you double strength as all mention of walker is gone from its description.

Kind of disappointed about halberds, they would have been much more interesting weapons if they were axes.

What about rending now? I heard that its now on the roll to hit and no longer on the roll to wound or penetrate. This would make psycannons much better.

It's on the wound roll.

On the plus side, Paladins, being characters, get to allocate any wound rolls of a 6, which means all those nasty rending hits go exactly where we want them to.

Damn so Halberds are AP3, oh boy. Get ready to see the nerd rage from the WAACS!

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Get ready to see the nerd rage from the WAACS!

That was entirely unneeded.

Fafnir wrote:

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Get ready to see the nerd rage from the WAACS!

That was entirely unneeded.

So was AP2 at I6. Zing, zoom, swish.

Who said that they would be I6? We were hoping for I3.

In my part, not for "WAAC" purposes, but for the sake of making halberds unique weapons that filled a specific niche within the codex.

Fafnir wrote:Who said that they would be I6? We were hoping for I3.

I didn't say they would be, but as a matter of fact they were AP2 at I6 in 5th edition, lol.

And we've had a massive paradigm shift in 6th, so that doesn't even matter in context anymore.

Paradigm shift as in a massive nerf to Power Weapons.

Unless you mean the more general turkey stuffing melee got.

TedNugent wrote:Paradigm shift as in a massive nerf to Power Weapons.

Unless you mean the more general turkey stuffing melee got.

Little bit of both, really.

Well, I guess we'll just play more like we did with the DH codex. Less agressive, more focused on shooting and avoiding the enemy before charging into combats of opprotunity.

Although, with rapid fire weapons getting buffed, they've become more powerful in comparison to the stormbolter shuffle. GK'll still win that firefight, but it won't be as one-sided as before. Especially if people end up bringing nasty toys like plasma along.

Grey Templar wrote:Well, I guess we'll just play more like we did with the DH codex. Less agressive, more focused on shooting and avoiding the enemy before charging into combats of opprotunity.

Its only really against TH/SS Termies that GK are at a huge disadvantage now, against GEQ and MEQ GK still dominate in CC.

As a henchman player, but without seeing the new rulebook yet (damn post), I have the following thoughts:

1) meltabomb acolytes will be extremely viable as vehicle killers (I think they were under 5th). Perhaps even better than IG melta vets. Although perhaps difficult to play due to no-assaulting-from-vehicle rules.
2) single psykers might be useful if they can take the new powers.
3) crusaders are more useful when deliberately placed closest to the enemy.
4) i understand there has been a lascannon buff due to the new vehicle glance mechanics and snapshot, so jokaeros just got better.

Could someone with the new rulebook please tell me whether eviscerators are better? How have they changed if at all?

Are multilasers now AP - or is this fairly clearly going to be errata'd back to AP 6?

Have there been any changes to assaulting into cover that might affect DCA?

Thanks chaps.

Sethorly wrote:
2) single psykers might be useful if they can take the new powers.

They can't.

Could someone with the new rulebook please tell me whether eviscerators are better? How have they changed if at all?

Lost 2D6 armour penetration.

Have there been any changes to assaulting into cover that might affect DCA?

Nope. Still need someone with grenades. Oh, you can't assault out of Chimeras anymore. Like, at all, even if it was stationary.

Daemon Hammers are ap3 this makes me sad. Aside from Henchmen we don't have plasma, so what can we do vs TH/SS termies?

There is a cogent argument for daemon hammers being AP2. Codex overrides BRB in case of conflict, explicitly stated in BRB now. FAQ amendment says 'unless stated otherwise, NFW are Unusual Force Weapons'. Codex states daemon hammers are also thunder hammers, so that excludes it from being a stock unusual force weapon.. If you contend that it's still an unusual force weapon, then codex says AP2 (because it's a TH) while BRB says AP3, codex wins.

Sorry quick question, how many of the new BRB psychic powers can GK Librarians take? Since GK Libbies buy their Codex Powers, does this mean we can buy as many BRB powers as the points allow?

GreyHamster wrote:There is a cogent argument for daemon hammers being AP2. Codex overrides BRB in case of conflict, explicitly stated in BRB now. FAQ amendment says 'unless stated otherwise, NFW are Unusual Force Weapons'. Codex states daemon hammers are also thunder hammers, so that excludes it from being a stock unusual force weapon.. If you contend that it's still an unusual force weapon, then codex says AP2 (because it's a TH) while BRB says AP3, codex wins.

Hammers are most certainly AP2. They are unsual force weapons, which makes them AP3, but their rules give them AP2, S*2, Unwieldy, and Concussive in addition to their normal rules.

Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:Sorry quick question, how many of the new BRB psychic powers can GK Librarians take? Since GK Libbies buy their Codex Powers, does this mean we can buy as many BRB powers as the points allow?

Nope. You get to roll on those charts X number of time. X being the Librarian's Mastery Level. Which is 2. So you get two random powers (plus Hammerhand which you get to keep). If you spend the points to become Mastery Level 3 you can roll 3 times on those charts.


It is impossible to buy powers in the codex and also try to acquire powers from the BRB. It is one or the other.

No way Nemesis Hammers are AP3, they already use the rules for Thunder Hammers.

At least Halberds are just I6 swords... although don't try to CC TH/SS Terms ever.

Does this mean Draigo's sword is AP3 as well?

Fafnir wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:No way Nemesis Hammers are AP3, they already use the rules for Thunder Hammers.

At least Halberds are just I6 swords... although don't try to CC TH/SS Terms ever.

Well, they actually technically are at AP3, but they're also at AP2, which overrides that.

Yay! Semantics!

FFS, why didn't they just give the weapons stat-lines in the damn FAQ.

daedalus-templarius wrote:No way Nemesis Hammers are AP3, they already use the rules for Thunder Hammers.

At least Halberds are just I6 swords... although don't try to CC TH/SS Terms ever.

Well, they actually technically are at AP3, but they're also at AP2, which overrides that.

Yay! Semantics!

I think that the most important change in the rulebook are the missions. You can have all the buffs in the world but if you don't complete the missions you won't win the game. Looking at it from a Paladin perspective, they complete the secondary objectives relatively well but only 1 of the 6 missions is essentially kill points. Sure if you want them to take an objective it is difficult to stop them from doing that if Draigo is floating around (which he will be in the vast majority of cases), but the mission that they really excel at is something that you are only going to be rolling up 17% of the time.

Rampage wrote:I think that the most important change in the rulebook are the missions. You can have all the buffs in the world but if you don't complete the missions you won't win the game. Looking at it from a Paladin perspective, they complete the secondary objectives relatively well but only 1 of the 6 missions is essentially kill points. Sure if you want them to take an objective it is difficult to stop them from doing that if Draigo is floating around (which he will be in the vast majority of cases), but the mission that they really excel at is something that you are only going to be rolling up 17% of the time.

True, but this was also the case for Paladins under 5th edition. You could make a case for them being good at objective grabs, since ten Paladins camping over two or three closely placed objectives are hard to move, but this means they aren't spending their time rolf-stomping their way across the table like they should be, and sometimes there's no guarantee the objectives they're camping on will be enough to win them the game.

Kill points will be great for them, as will the scenario where you accrue points for holding objectives. They are also a great way to protect your Warlord, denying extra VP to the enemy.

The new deployment methods though, mean the enemy will start the game a minimum of 24" away, and the Hammer and Anvil deployment exacerbates this problem. This makes deep-striking much more important, which also makes the methods of ensuring deep-striking much more important. I think I'll be finding points for a couple more servo skulls and a teleport homer. It also makes Psychic Communion more useful. I've tended to start my Grandmaster in reserve with a unit of Terminators in the past, but being able to manipulate my Reserve rolls on turn two might be worth putting him on the table...

It's also worth noting that not many people play Paladins as MSU. I think, especially with the scare of power weapons being much less than before, and the ability to tarpit/survive via challenges and shear resiliency, a unit of 1-3 Paladins would make great objective claimers/holders.

So how is FNP resolved with Look Out Sir? Do we see if a wound is nullified before allocation, or after?

I would imagine that all saves relevant to that model would be taken at the same time. A wound is not saved/unsaved until after all the saves are made against it.

the FnP entry says FnP is NOT a saving throw. So maybe LoS happens between taking your regular saves and FnP. So you could LoS your unsaved wound to a guy who then gets FnP against it(if applicable)

Either way, it's pretty much irrelevant in this specific case, since FNP would be shared by the entire squad.

What do you think about Mordrak, with the new wound allocation, it's gonna be pretty messy.

DakotaBlue wrote:What do you think about Mordrak, with the new wound allocation, it's gonna be pretty messy.

Why would anyone bother with Mordrak now? He's worse than before. Fails the Look Out Sir thing, and he and all the Ghosts could die in one shot.


Speaking of ICs getting better or worse... did Coteaz just get better? Two rolls on the psychic power chart will probably end up being better than his listed powers. Hey, does anyone know if his "I've Been Expecting You" ability works while he is inside a transport?

From what I recall that power didn't work while he was in a vehicle and it even says so in the codex IIRC.

Had a chance to test paladins today - I played Tau and my friend played GK.

He didn't use draigo, so it was just everyone using 4+ LOS. We both agreed it was a balanced rule for two reasons.

1) The GK player retained the tankiness that the unit allowed him
2) As his opponent, I could fire on that unit and reasonably expect to kill the man taking LOS's.

After 3 turns, I had killed one paladin and wounded 5 others (out of 8) and I didn't hit him with any ID weapons. It's sorta like the hit points on AV 11 - you're going to die sooner than before, but for that limited time you get increased capabilities (not having to screw with kit).

As an army that lacks mass S8, the paladins didn't really bother me.

We also tried out buildings (called a ruin an AV 12 building), and it was fun! The Paladins inside shot down a pirahna and my hammerhead denoted the building.

4d6 hits later, 2 GK's died. Try it out!

LOS still make draigo a beast. 3++SS, then he can redirect the wound into a paladin on a 2+. So if Draigo is in front it should take about 18 lascannon/melta wounds to drop a single wound onto Draigo (6 failed 3++ saves= 1 wound on Draigo and 5 dead paladins). From the front the unit is basically like a TH/SS termie unit. The obvious solution is to maneuver so that Draigo isn't the closest target, shoot the other paladin unit, or lash/pavane the unit into a cluster with Draigo in back and plasma cannon the unit.

Squad leaders with staffs can also be really abused. 2++ invo followed by a 4+ look out sir=9 power fists needed on average to kill the staff. If it's a librarian with a 2+ LOS that goes up to 36 power fists wounds needed to kill the librarian.

As long as deamonhammers are ruled to be AP2 Draigowing is still a top tier beatstick when it comes to CC. The real weakness I see for Draigowing is Paladins are really expensive, and there won't be much in points left over for air defense. I'm not sure what a 1750 Draigowing list would do if it ran into say 6 Vendettas (780 points), let alone 9 Vendettas (1170 points).

Just a second ...

schadenfreude wrote:
As long as deamonhammers are ruled to be AP2 Draigowing is still a top tier beatstick when it comes to CC. The real weakness I see for Draigowing is Paladins are really expensive, and there won't be much in points left over for air defense. I'm not sure what a 1750 Draigowing list would do if it ran into say 6 Vendettas (780 points), let alone 9 Vendettas (1170 points).

This, combined with the fact that "null-deployment" (i.e. full reserve armies, such as those that rely on DS) are no longer possible (auto-lose if you have no models on the table at the end of any turn - even though it is possible to make GK lists where every model is in reserve, since Terminators may always be placed in reserve), makes any list with Paladins much weaker. You can't rely on holding all your guys together and dropping them in your opponent's face anymore. At the 2k+ level, this is less of an issue, but even so, between balancing relatively rare/fragile anti-air options, having a sufficient number of troops, and the general drop in vehicle survivability makes it much more troublesome to eke out a good looking GK Paladin list.

I'm finding it's even harder this edition to fit paladins in at the 1500 level. I could do it in 5th and still win some games (fluffy yet uncompetitive), but now it's really looking like paladins are reserved for allies unless I can convince my friends to up the points levels of our games.

It's also worth noting that full-reserve is actually illegal now. You're not allowed to reserve more than half of your units, rounded up, excepting things that MUST start in reserve.

I think it's likely one will need to draw on allies and cheap fortifications both in order to make a functional Paladin list. A solodin could sit on an objective behind a defense line and man the skyfire gun.

Positioning in order to deny fliers the ability to Fly and strike at you is going to be important.

GreyHamster wrote:It's also worth noting that full-reserve is actually illegal now.

Yeah, and that's a double whammy for Paladin lists, given that the new deployment maps push armies further apart.

I looked at the Hammer and Anvil deployment and thought "Damn, that's a lot of ground to cover. Lucky I can deepstrike my whole army into close range, otherwise I'd be screwed!"

Then I read the part about only reserving half your force.

"Damn"

Xca|iber wrote:

schadenfreude wrote:
As long as deamonhammers are ruled to be AP2 Draigowing is still a top tier beatstick when it comes to CC. The real weakness I see for Draigowing is Paladins are really expensive, and there won't be much in points left over for air defense. I'm not sure what a 1750 Draigowing list would do if it ran into say 6 Vendettas (780 points), let alone 9 Vendettas (1170 points).

This, combined with the fact that "null-deployment" (i.e. full reserve armies, such as those that rely on DS) are no longer possible (auto-lose if you have no models on the table at the end of any turn - even though it is possible to make GK lists where every model is in reserve, since Terminators may always be placed in reserve), makes any list with Paladins much weaker. You can't rely on holding all your guys together and dropping them in your opponent's face anymore. At the 2k+ level, this is less of an issue, but even so, between balancing relatively rare/fragile anti-air options, having a sufficient number of troops, and the general drop in vehicle survivability makes it much more troublesome to eke out a good looking GK Paladin list.

I'm finding it's even harder this edition to fit paladins in at the 1500 level. I could do it in 5th and still win some games (fluffy yet uncompetitive), but now it's really looking like paladins are reserved for allies unless I can convince my friends to up the points levels of our games.

The problem is that people are assuming that in order for Paladins to work, they need to be in a deathstar. Although it's true that a deathstar is one viable configuration, it's not the only one. As I've kept saying, in MSU deployments, they can make for great, cost effective assassins and tarpits.

BTW, if this has been said before I'm sorry.

Paladins have the IN(CH) rule which makes them all characters. This allows each model to precision fire (Any hits of a 6 you can allocate yourself) in the firing phase and shooting phase. Looks like Paladins got a buff to me. I'll take my 5+ ward and 5+ FnP

It's silly to imagine rolling sixs to hit and throwing your halberd to a model of your choosing.

So any ideas on an optimal Draigo list?
I'm thinking Draigo +10 pallies Lib +5 pallies Vindicare and a Dreadknight.

All halberds on the pallies? I'm thinking of maybe adding 1 hammer in each squad and possibly a Stave in the 10 man squad so I can challenge PF sergeants and negate them. Definite maxout on psycannons, now that we get precision they are mandatory (although you need to roll double 6).

What's the best way to loadout DK in 6th?

Maige wrote:So any ideas on an optimal Draigo list?
I'm thinking Draigo +10 pallies Lib +5 pallies Vindicare and a Dreadknight.

All halberds on the pallies? I'm thinking of maybe adding 1 hammer in each squad and possibly a Stave in the 10 man squad so I can challenge PF sergeants and negate them. Definite maxout on psycannons, now that we get precision they are mandatory (although you need to roll double 6).

What's the best way to loadout DK in 6th?

How about some anti-air defense?

wuestenfux wrote:
How about some anti-air defense?

Which would be a StormRaven for the Lib squad, or a fort depending on points.

Red Comet wrote:From what I recall that power didn't work while he was in a vehicle and it even says so in the codex IIRC.

No no no. Incorrect. A general pretty recent FAQ for 5th edition said a non-psychic power like his couldn't be used from inside the vehicle (or couldn't use the fire points in the vehicle to use it). I remember that distinctly because everyone assumed he could do it from inside the vehicle before the FAQ. So nothing in the codex forbids it. Now that we have a 6th edition, I am wondering if anyone, Coteaz included, can use special powers like that from inside the vehicle.

It looks to me like a Stormraven with psybolts gets the +1 str to the hurricane bolters, the heavy bolter shells and the assault cannon shells, making it an absolutely ridiculous gunship, but it costs 255 points.

Yet it will still come into play turn 2 and shoot 12 times with S5, 3 times with S6 and 4 times with S7 and everything is twin-linked. If it launches any missiles on top of that it's over 20 shots in one turn.

I'm not clear on this... Paladins are characters now, so that means they can all 'look out sir' each other? Did that just make them even MORE survivable? You don't have to differentiate their wargear now either, huh?

junk wrote:I'm not clear on this... Paladins are characters now, so that means they can all 'look out sir' each other? Did that just make them even MORE survivable? You don't have to differentiate their wargear now either, huh?

Yes. But since LOS is only on a 4+ for them, it's not a guaranteed thing.

Its more of a way of keeping a guy alive that you mistakenly had in front.


Heavy Psycannons got better in that there arn't any partials now. So less lame.

Its more of a way of keeping a guy alive that you mistakenly had in front.

No it really is 50% wound allocation shenanigans. Half of everything you take can be spread around like before, without having to buy diversified gear.

And with ICs, it's on a 2+.

And best of all, remember, if they're all making the same save, you allocate the wounds after they're saved, making it much more abusive than it was in 5th.

4+ LOS means a lot in CC when it come to warding staffs taking all the hits.

Deep strike restrictions can be circumvented several ways.

Adding 4 solodins to the list would do the trick. It would be pretty easy to hide them, and they would allow 4 other units to go into reserve.

Coteaz and henchmen also comes to mind. Coteaz + 48 bolter armed henchmen=340 points.

On the downside the problem of how to deal with airpower still remains, and things are only going to get worse when the eldar, tau, and csm fliers come out..

Psycannons on PAGK also benefit in overwatch as you can fire it with the heavy 4 rending profile, also if its fired by a Paladin on a to hit roll of a 6 they get to allocate the wound. It's also worth noting the Precision strike works well in assault for Paladins.

Also Purifiers got a buff VIA overwatch. Enemy unit declares a charge, you overwatch, they make their move, before attacks are made cleansing flame, THEN blows are struck!

What I don't really get is the new magic thingy.

You can choose the codex ones, the set each hero own, or the rulebook ones?

For example, Stern have a 3pack, level 2 mastery. I can choose 2 more spells rolling, or I have to discard them all, and choose 2 rolling.

DakotaBlue wrote:What I don't really get is the new magic thingy.

You can choose the codex ones, the set each hero own, or the rulebook ones?

For example, Stern have a 3pack, level 2 mastery. I can choose 2 more spells rolling, or I have to discard them all, and choose 2 rolling.

No. Only Librarians can select non-codex powers (via the generic powers in the rulebook), and how they do so is clearly laid out in the FAQ.

Stormravens got a buff to their mindstrike missiles if you guys didn't notice, since it forces a Perils.

And now, there are NO saves allowed against perils.

Also the amount of shots a stormraven can put out... with psybolts, etc. Wow.

I assume the hurricane bolters can shoot rapid-fire at targets 24" away since they are mounted to a vehicle right? If so, hurricane bolters definitely got a buff.

Just keep in mind that you can only fire four weapons (five with machine spirit) if you zoom, and that you are limited to two mind strikes a turn.

If you choose to hover, you're a fast skimmer and so can only fire two weapons (one plus machine spirit) and snap the rest. You can't snap fire mindstrikes as it is a blast weapon.

So whats everyone's thoughts for anti-air? Just fire a bucket load of stormbolter/psycannon shots and hope we get lucky? Are Stormravens necessary now? I hope not, I hate that flying brick.

Kaldor wrote:So whats everyone's thoughts for anti-air? Just fire a bucket load of stormbolter/psycannon shots and hope we get lucky? Are Stormravens necessary now? I hope not, I hate that flying brick.

Twin-linked Pysflemen/Pysbacks will help. Also, unless I am wrong you can move and Snapfire Pyscannons on Heavy Mode. That alone should help.

Kaldor wrote:So whats everyone's thoughts for anti-air? Just fire a bucket load of stormbolter/psycannon shots and hope we get lucky? Are Stormravens necessary now? I hope not, I hate that flying brick.

I'm thinking massed snap-fire Psycannons in heavy-mode. Also, I'm not sure whether or not the gun emplacement in an Aegis Defense Line can be destroyed, as the line is not a building. Though I'll admit I haven't gone over the fortification rules very closely yet. So that could be another solid option if you can hold on to the position.

Hmm. Might be time to invest in a psyfleman dread.

In the bunch of games I've tried with GK so far, really making me feel air power is going to be hot stuff in 6th. Airhammer maybe?

Face it, vs stuff like necron air force, the statistics just aren't with us for massed fire vs their survivability and return fires. The aegis defense line I'm actually quite interested in and will test in the future. Good ideas so far but definately will need more testing.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/458655.page

Face it, vs stuff like necron air force, the statistics just aren't with us for massed fire vs their survivability and return fires.

Just keep in mind the Necron Air Force is the only army in the game that can feasibly field an extreme amount of flyers. To combat that, and as a Necron (air force) player myself I think you can combat it, you'll also need to go as extreme as you can. If you're afraid of an extreme tournament army but refuse to use an extreme tournament army yourself then you can only blame yourself.

For example (1850p):

HQ
Inquisitor Torquemada Coteaz: 100p
ELITES
5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, NDH, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 195p
5 Purifiers, 2 Psycannons, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB: 190p
TROOPS
3 Servitors, 3 Multi-Meltas, Chimera, Heavy Bolter: 85p
3 Warriors, Bolters, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB, Searchlight: 66p
3 Warriors, Bolters, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB, Searchlight: 66p
3 Warriors, Bolters, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB, Searchlight: 66p
3 Warriors, Bolters, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB, Searchlight: 66p
3 Warriors, Bolters, Razorback, Psybolts, TL HB, Searchlight: 66p
FAST ATTACK
Stormraven Gunship, Hurricane Bolters, Psybolts: 255p
HEAVY SUPPORT
Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
Dreadnought, Psybolts, 2 TL Autocannons: 135p
FORTIFICATION
Aegis Defence Line, Quad Gun: 100p

I think this list fights against the Necron Air Force quite well. Nearly everything is twin-linked and it has a virtual ton of everything. You focus on the Doom Scythes first, and this army can easily take down all three in one shooting phase. The Stormraven will take down one, the three Dreadnoughts will bring down one, and all the rest of the stuff will bring down atleast one flyer. The Quad Gun can destroy a flyer already during the enemy movement phase. I'm being overly simplistic here but I'm stressing the fact that if you start counting how many penetrating and glancing hits this army will put on AV11 even if it hits with 6's only, you'll notice that it's not impossible at all to even table the Necron Air Force. Also don't forget the fact that vehicles get cover saves even if only 25% of their frontage is in cover, and the Aegis Defence Line gives 4+ cover.

Finally, don't forget the fact that when you're fighting against flyers, you can always move at full speed every turn since snap firing isn't a disadvantage because you already hit with 6's.

Xca|iber wrote:

Kaldor wrote:So whats everyone's thoughts for anti-air? Just fire a bucket load of stormbolter/psycannon shots and hope we get lucky? Are Stormravens necessary now? I hope not, I hate that flying brick.

I'm thinking massed snap-fire Psycannons in heavy-mode. Also, I'm not sure whether or not the gun emplacement in an Aegis Defense Line can be destroyed, as the line is not a building. Though I'll admit I haven't gone over the fortification rules very closely yet. So that could be another solid option if you can hold on to the position.

gun emplacements are a T7 model with 2 wounds and a 3+ armor, 5+ cover for hiding behind it.

Put it behind an Aegis defense line and it has a 4+ cover too.

Fafnir wrote:

Sethorly wrote:
2) single psykers might be useful if they can take the new powers.

They can't.

Is this because they don't have the "Psyker" Special Rule?

Fafnir wrote:

Sethorly wrote:

Could someone with the new rulebook please tell me whether eviscerators are better? How have they changed if at all?

Lost 2D6 armour penetration.

No they haven't, they have Armourbane, which is 2d6 armour pen. (I have the rulebook now!)

Would anyone agree with me that henchmen acolytes with meltabombs are now fantastic against vehicles, much more so than multimeltas? These could end up being the standard contents of our anti-flyer psybacks.

Final musing: if DKs and Paladins are ICs, can we join them with other units eg. a henchman squad led by a paladin? The mind boggles.

Sethorly wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

Sethorly wrote:
2) single psykers might be useful if they can take the new powers.

They can't.

Is this because they don't have the "Psyker" Special Rule?

No. The FAQ says who can use the new rulebook powers.

Final musing: if DKs and Paladins are ICs, can we join them with other units eg. a henchman squad led by a paladin? The mind boggles.

They are Characters but NOT Independent Characters. They can't join other units. Just like the Assassins.

Yeah, what they can do is challange other characters.

I used that to good effect yesterday at a tournament. My Dreadknight assassinated Imotek and a Librarian quite handily.


Charge a DK with Doomfists into a squad, challange the Sergeant(who probably has a PF, if its just a sword or a maul leave him alone)

If he accepts, you beat him down before he swings and you don't get hit by anybody else. And the threat of the hidden PF is gone.

If he refuses, he can't hurt you and you can pwn everyone else.


This can be especially nasty if you cast Quicksilver on the DK. Just beware any characters with 4+ invulns(or better)

What kind of setup are you using on your DK?

Are they better now in 6th? I hadn't had a lot of luck using them in 5th; just would get shot down too fast.

Incinerator, Teliporter, and 2 Doomfists.

With Nightfighting be relativly common(and being a Cover save now) its useful to be able to ignore it. Its also why that one divination psychic power is so awsome(Perfect Timing)


Also, Divination is just an awsome lore period. Cast Forwarning on any GK unit with Swords = 3+ invuln in CC.

I think its still worthwhile to take a Librarian with our own powers though.


Below 2K i run a Stormraven and a Librarian with Divination with some Terminator troops along with a Dreadknight. Above 2k I'll add Crowe and some Purifiers for my second FoC. And as many Aegis defense lines as possable.

Nice little tidbit about the Vindicare. He gets to use his Deadshot special rule when firing gun emplacements


And one thing I noticed in the back of the book. they changed the Assassins unit type to character. Does that mean we can now duplicate assassins?

daedalus-templarius wrote:Are they better now in 6th? I hadn't had a lot of luck using them in 5th; just would get shot down too fast.

Supposedly a typo has made their doom fists S10 striking at regular Initiative 4, so that's a big boost. Also power swords don't really do anything against them in CC. And nightfighting helps them get into CC more often like Grey Temples mentioned.

Grey Templar wrote:
With Nightfighting be relativly common(and being a Cover save now) its useful to be able to ignore it. Its also why that one divination psychic power is so awsome(Perfect Timing)


Also, Divination is just an awsome lore period. Cast Forwarning on any GK unit with Swords = 3+ invuln in CC.

I think its still worthwhile to take a Librarian with our own powers though.


Below 2K i run a Stormraven and a Librarian with Divination with some Terminator troops along with a Dreadknight. Above 2k I'll add Crowe and some Purifiers for my second FoC. And as many Aegis defense lines as possable.

Nice little tidbit about the Vindicare. He gets to use his Deadshot special rule when firing gun emplacements


And one thing I noticed in the back of the book. they changed the Assassins unit type to character. Does that mean we can now duplicate assassins?

Agreed on the Divination discipline. I'm going to try running a Mastery 3 Librarian with 3 of the powers. The Primaris one might be pretty good for helping Psycannons take down a pesky flyer (twin linking 8 BS1 shots and all that). And the 4+ invul power is comparable to Shrouding now that cover is mostly 5+, and it works in CC and doesn't require the unit to be "in cover".

I think the cap on Aegis lines is 2, one for each detachment .

You should ask in YMDC about the assassin thing. If I can now take 3 Vindicares, I'll be pretty happy.

Challenges with Dreadknights, amazing...

Also, paladins will always send forward the warding stave to answer and deliver challenges.

All this bs about GK getting softer in 6e is patently ridiculous, they are meaner than ever. Overwatching psycannons, Vindicares in emplacements, even more resistant paladins, Psybolting Hurricane ravens zooming around being invincible...

Unfortunately assassins have unique, which means only one per army, even if double force org. They're essentially named dudes. So no 6 vindicare armies.

Apologies if someone mentioned these already.

Dread Knights doomfists are Str 10 now. They weren't before, because DCCW said "a dreadnought using a DCCW doubles it's strength". But that part is gone now, so....

There's no escorting models off the board, now, so tank shocking is much less bothersome for Draigo-Wing and the like.

DCA can take one axe (or Maul) and a regular power sword, and can choose to use either one, still getting +1 attack. Personally all my crusaders are getting axes, I don't have much use for I3.

What the... axes on DCA and Crusaders!? How did I miss that?

Joe Mama wrote:What the... axes on DCA and Crusaders!? How did I miss that?

I know! I'm a little ashamed my brain works like this......first tournament people will hate me.

Another thing, this lets you snipe better. Say you have several DCAs, one btb with a powerfist (for ease, let's pretend it's not a sergeant for some reason) Have everyone else use axes, that one guy uses the regular powersword. Great, he has to get rid of his power fist first.

You are evil man. Deliciously evil. LOL. Of course, using mostly axes against an enemy means swinging last, so I am not sure sniping in that scenario will be too useful. But axes will help hurt terminators at least...


Don't have my codex here. Is that where it says DCA and Crusaders can have power axes?

Yeah, if DCA can get Power Axe/Power Sword combo and still get the +1 attack, they'll be an even more dangerous glass cannon unit. With an Inquisitor or Librarian and some Power Axe Crusaders, you'll be able to wipe out pretty much anything.

4 AP3 attacks apiece at WS5, S5 (with Hammerhand), I6, with the choice of increasing that to S6 AP2 at I1, combined with S5 AP2 Crusaders with storm shields, gives a fairly lethal combination.

Joe Mama wrote:You are evil man. Deliciously evil. LOL. Of course, using mostly axes against an enemy means swinging last, so I am not sure sniping in that scenario will be too useful. But axes will help hurt terminators at least...


Don't have my codex here. Is that where it says DCA and Crusaders can have power axes?

Meh, it all just depends. Maybe You're fighting mephiston, and he went before you anyway, who knows?

The basic BRB rule is that any normal, basic power weapon is "as modeled". So, for instance, not the NFW nor Dark Eldar weirdo weapons. But the basic swords that henchmen have, yeah, that's fine. Inquisitors and Techmarines, too.

junk wrote:Challenges with Dreadknights, amazing...

Also, paladins will always send forward the warding stave to answer and deliver challenges.

All this bs about GK getting softer in 6e is patently ridiculous, they are meaner than ever. Overwatching psycannons, Vindicares in emplacements, even more resistant paladins, Psybolting Hurricane ravens zooming around being invincible...

Unfortunately assassins have unique, which means only one per army, even if double force org. They're essentially named dudes. So no 6 vindicare armies.

They are a lot softer dude, for several key reasons.

#1 - The power weapon nerf really hurt them, especially Paladins. They can no longer just move forward and pwn everything in assault. Terminators will cause them horrendous damage, and MegaNobz will eat them.

#2 - Only 1 of the 6 missions is kill point focused. Paladin builds have always struggled in objective missions.

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.

Overall, I would say they are a lot more balanced.

Paladins are brutal. Since all of them are characters, all their shooting and melee attacks have the potential to precision strike, any of them can make or answer challenges, all of them can LOS each other, and they still put out murderous Overwatch fire with their master crafted storm bolters and psycannons.

Add in that only Eldar, Wolves, and Tyranids can interfere with Hammerhand, that vehicles implode on contact with infantry, and the loss of walking broken units off the board and paladins are still quite solid. Hell, they are probably even tougher to shift than they used to be.

Darklight wrote:
#1 - The power weapon nerf really hurt them, especially Paladins. They can no longer just move forward and pwn everything in assault. Terminators will cause them horrendous damage, and MegaNobz will eat them.

It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins.

#2 - Only 1 of the 6 missions is kill point focused. Paladin builds have always struggled in objective missions.

So then take fewer Paladins? Again, different, not worse.

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.

I'm not sure how this hurts them. Doesn't this only trigger on units targeted? Doesn't affect NFW or Hammerhand then. I suppose if you use the PSAs that they have, maybe.

Overall, I would say they are a lot more balanced.

This I would hope to agree with, though I'm going to wait to see how they play out.

daedalus wrote:

Darklight wrote:
#1 - The power weapon nerf really hurt them, especially Paladins. They can no longer just move forward and pwn everything in assault. Terminators will cause them horrendous damage, and MegaNobz will eat them.

It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins.

#2 - Only 1 of the 6 missions is kill point focused. Paladin builds have always struggled in objective missions.

So then take fewer Paladins? Again, different, not worse.

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.

I'm not sure how this hurts them. Doesn't this only trigger on units targeted? Doesn't affect NFW or Hammerhand then. I suppose if you use the PSAs that they have, maybe.

Overall, I would say they are a lot more balanced.

This I would hope to agree with, though I'm going to wait to see how they play out.

"It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins."
TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

"So then take fewer Paladins? Again, different, not worse."
Smaller units of Paladins are even less effective. The 10 man deathstar in 5th, or 2 combat squaded 5 man mini stars is where the power was.

"I'm not sure how this hurts them. Doesn't this only trigger on units targeted? Doesn't affect NFW or Hammerhand then. I suppose if you use the PSAs that they have, maybe."
I understand Suffer the Witch as a replacement for Psychic Hood. I will re-read the rules on this one, but it is a slight nerf because every army can do it.

Darklight wrote: "It hurts EVERYONE, not just GK, and GK are tied for the 1st place on the number of Terminators they can take. I've never even known GK to really be that amazing in assault anyway. Sure, Purifier builds are nasty, but still. Shooting is what GK have always been great at. It's what they'll continue to be great at. Personally, I would have always been afraid of other terminators in melee. TH/SS obliterate Paladins."
TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

Paladins are still top-dog. It's just that the margin got smaller, and units became more specialised. Any unit with a whole bunch of power weapon attacks was an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction under 5th edition. Now, they can't handle Terminators so those units need a re-think.

So some of the things that used to be easy meat for Paladins (ie: everything) are now a considerable challenge. Meganob Orks for example: We can try and kill some through ID and number of attacks with Halberds, Swords and Falchions, but they'll be rolling their 2+ save and a lot of them will be striking back. We WONT get our 2+ save, and they'll be ID'ing us as well with their powerklaws. It's not an automatic lose, by any means, but it's a significant risk for something that is such a large part of your army. It's the same for a few other enemy units as well.

The main strength of Paladins was that once they started to gain ground, they'd simply keep taking it. Nothing and no one was going to stop them. Shoot at them, and they'd laugh with 2+ armour, 5++ invuln, 4+ FNP and wound allocation. Assault them and they'd roflstomp you with I6 master-crafted force weapons, and heaven help you if they had a character in there to boost them.

So to make the most use of that ability, you'd plonk them down near the centre of the enemy lines and start wrecking face. Or you'd deliberately stack two or three objectives 12" away from each other and spread the unit out to claim/contest them all.

But that is SO much more risky now. If you run up against a 10 man TH/SS blob, you can be in real trouble. If you run up against a large Meganob blob, you're in real trouble.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A question about the Dreadknight:

Did this bad boy get a solid boost, or what? If I take a greatsword, I still count as having two weapons, and recieve the +1 attack, right? And then I can choose to either use the greatsword profile to attack (re-rolling ALL the things!) or the Doomfist (S10, yes please). Are the greatswords still AP2, or are they AP3 now?

Darklight wrote:TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

True, but now it will be the other way around, TH/SS will be able to take out Paladins.

Joe Mama wrote:

Darklight wrote:TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

True, but now it will be the other way around, TH/SS will be able to take out Paladins.

I fail to see how much has changed. Because of Str8 and 3++, TH/SS have always killed even numbers of paladins. But shoot them down to half numbers or so, you'll be able to beat them out. It's mostly the same math.

Take Stave and a few more hammers than before, make sure you positon everything appropirately (and remember look out sirs!, you can try to assign wounds to Draigo, if you want) and you'll probably do even better than before.

Joe Mama wrote:

Darklight wrote:TH\SS did not obliterate Paladins in melee. There was usually nothing left of them after the 20-30 attacks, hitting on 3's and wounding on 2's.

True, but now it will be the other way around, TH/SS will be able to take out Paladins.

It's not quite that clear cut. Paladins will be dishing out obscene amounts of attacks (anything up to 50 or more, depending on banners, weapon load-out, who assaulted who, counter-attack, characters, etc) maybe wounding on 2's (depending on characters) and it's not impossible for them to drop 5 or 6 TH/SS, leaving them to strike back with 4 or 5 models. Giving the benefit of the doubt to the TH/SS termies, say there's five of them, and they assaulted, so they get 15 attacks, call it 8 hits, 7 wounds, is three dead Paladins after saves? Things get trickier if the TH/SS did not assault, or we factor in things like psychotroke grenades.

It's not a cost effective situation for the Paladins, that's for sure!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir_Prometheus wrote:I fail to see how much has changed.

With the changes to power weapons, the number of saves TH/SS makes against Paladins just doubled. That's a pretty big change.

Darklight wrote:

#3 - Suffer the witch hurts.
.

"deny the witch" only works against powers that are targetting you. Since most GK powers are buffs, it doesn't work at all. Also, since every GK unit is a psyker, they all get DTW, always at at least 5+, and often at 4+ (oif there's mastery level 2 character, which is a lot of the common ones)

This is all on TOP of aegis, mind you. It's actually a huge boost to GK overall. We're one of the most psychic-proof armies out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kaldor wrote:
With the changes to power weapons, the number of saves TH/SS makes against Paladins just doubled. That's a pretty big change.

I get that, but if you cared, just take more hammers yourself. Except that would be silly, as then you'd be going simo and a lot more of them would live than you. Really, just shoot them more, I've never had much of a problem with this. And like I said, you really can use Draigo to block for you, even in CC! Heck, FNP will work with him against Hammers.

Like I said, it's almost better, not worse.

In regards to flyer defense, torrent of fire from Paladins is going to help with them, isn't it? TL Riflemen @ Str8 plus all the Psycannons in the Pally squads. Someone will have to help me with the math, but if Paladins shift their Mastercrafting points from Halberds/Hammers to the Psycannons, won't each 5 man Paladin squad take at least 2 hull points off the flyers each turn?

A Psyfkeman will get 1.22 6's on average. That's not bad, but it's certainly not going to bring down even on flyer, on average.

Draigo is ap3.....hahaha, this is hillarious. Marnius Calgar and a squad of tactical termies can beet paladins in CC now. I would seriously say paladins are not worth their cost any more as a deathstar, small units would be good maybe. I mean even mega nobz are all CH in the appendix meaning gaz and his mates will slap them silly and can all LOS each other if they want.

Red Corsair wrote:can beet paladins

Seriously though, I can't believe that people were actually fighting terminators with their paladins in melee previously. That's not a risk I would have taken. No, the solution now is to outshoot termies, or take plain GK termies.

Joe Mama wrote:You are evil man. Deliciously evil. LOL. Of course, using mostly axes against an enemy means swinging last, so I am not sure sniping in that scenario will be too useful. But axes will help hurt terminators at least...


Don't have my codex here. Is that where it says DCA and Crusaders can have power axes?

They have Power Weapons, which means you need to model them with either Power Swords(AP3), Power Axes(AP2, +1Str, I1), or Power Mauls(+2Str, AP4)

You have a choice with how they are armed, but it has to be modeled.

Fought some Necrons first time in 6th.

Stormraven is ridiculously awesome with Hurricane Bolters, Assault cannon, and heavy bolter, all shooting psybolts. SO many shots.

Dreadknight is just as hilariously bad as before.

Draigo at AP3 is really dumb.

Tons of psycannons on Paladins is still the best.

'Looks out sir' adds quite a bit of survivability.

Really like the new rules, except that Draigo is AP3; I mean wtf is that. Also told the guy I was playing against I was a king at rolling 1s, he didn't believe me; till I rolled 3 1's to save Draigo against some gauss rifles.

I played lots of games with Draigo Wing in 5th, and one of my regular opponents is a Death Wing expert of many years.
I understand the matchup between Paladins and TH\SS Termies all too well.

In 5th - a unit of 5-10 TH\SS termies would normally get wiped everytime, because of volume of attacks from the Paladin death star.

In 6th - a unit of 5 will usually get wiped everytime, but it starts getting riskier with larger units. Full Deathwing is 99.9% auto loose
for Draigo Wing in 6th. It was bad in 5th as well, but winnable if the stars were aligned.

Besides the above, it's not just TH\SS termies now. ANY terminator unit with fists are a major threat in assault. Yes, shooting the termies
before they get to you is the best strategy (it was in 5th as well). It doesn't always work out though, you will often find yourself in assault regardless.

Meganobz are going to be a MAJOR problem for Draigo Wing in 6th. The problem is, the Ork player can take a unit of 10 and mech them
up, and it is not obsence in points. You may or may not be able to shoot them up before they get to you. And multiple, large units of Boyz
are a problem now as well, because there are no more no-retreat fearless wounds.

Besides these matchups, the biggest problem in 6th, as I mentioned above, are the missions. Draigo Wing is actually not strong in
objective based missions. And objective based missions are what you are going to be playing almost all the time.

This may be a YMDC question, but it's GK based so...

Psychic 'blessings' that target the psyker: How does that interact with Brotherhood of Psykers?

Hypothetically If you were to use the buff which allows the psyker to reroll all hits wounds and saves on a unit with brotherhood of psykers, does it then affect all of them?

junk wrote:This may be a YMDC question, but it's GK based so...

Psychic 'blessings' that target the psyker: How does that interact with Brotherhood of Psykers?

Hypothetically If you were to use the buff which allows the psyker to reroll all hits wounds and saves on a unit with brotherhood of psykers, does it then affect all of them?

I don't think it's possible for a Brotherhood of Psykers to use the new powers, so I can't see how this would ever come up?

Im slightly confused with the psychic powers as it states in the rule book that if a psyker knows specific powers then he uses them if not he can choose from any discipline, how does this work with the librarian who has to pay 5pts for each power?

Also the new rules for force weapons, do the rules for them in the GK codex still count on top of the main rules, like +2 I and +1 to inv saves etc.

Scottiebhoy wrote:Im slightly confused with the psychic powers as it states in the rule book that if a psyker knows specific powers then he uses them if not he can choose from any discipline, how does this work with the librarian who has to pay 5pts for each power?

A librarian can either buy his powers from the codex, or generate two powers from the book. Or three powers if he upgrades to mastery level three.

Also the new rules for force weapons, do the rules for them in the GK codex still count on top of the main rules, like +2 I and +1 to inv saves etc.

The rules are in the rulebook. They state if a force weapon has it's own special rules, then it is AP3. So halberds, falchions and swords are all AP3. Hammers still count as thunderhammers, and are AP2.

Thanks for clearing that up with the Librarian. So GK termies are only allowed to use HH.

Ive read what it said in the rulebook, but say a Halberd in the GK codex says it confers +2 Init, but then in the rulebook its states its unwieldy with +1 S AP2 as halberds are classed as force axes.
Sorry if im being dense, just trying to get my head round it

Scottiebhoy wrote:Thanks for clearing that up with the Librarian. So GK termies are only allowed to use HH.

Ive read what it said in the rulebook, but say a Halberd in the GK codex says it confers +2 Init, but then in the rulebook its states its unwieldy with +1 S AP2 as halberds are classed as force axes.
Sorry if im being dense, just trying to get my head round it

There's another part in the same section. It say's that any weapon which has it's own rules, counts as an 'unusual force weapon' and has AP3 in addition to any other rules.

So Halberds, because they have a special rule, count as an unusual weapon, and are AP3.

Ive got you, being blind. thanks again

Darklight wrote:I played lots of games with Draigo Wing in 5th, and one of my regular opponents is a Death Wing expert of many years.
I understand the matchup between Paladins and TH\SS Termies all too well.

In 5th - a unit of 5-10 TH\SS termies would normally get wiped everytime, because of volume of attacks from the Paladin death star.

In 6th - a unit of 5 will usually get wiped everytime, but it starts getting riskier with larger units. Full Deathwing is 99.9% auto loose
for Draigo Wing in 6th. It was bad in 5th as well, but winnable if the stars were aligned.

Besides the above, it's not just TH\SS termies now. ANY terminator unit with fists are a major threat in assault. Yes, shooting the termies
before they get to you is the best strategy (it was in 5th as well). It doesn't always work out though, you will often find yourself in assault regardless.

Meganobz are going to be a MAJOR problem for Draigo Wing in 6th. The problem is, the Ork player can take a unit of 10 and mech them
up, and it is not obsence in points. You may or may not be able to shoot them up before they get to you. And multiple, large units of Boyz
are a problem now as well, because there are no more no-retreat fearless wounds.

Besides these matchups, the biggest problem in 6th, as I mentioned above, are the missions. Draigo Wing is actually not strong in
objective based missions. And objective based missions are what you are going to be playing almost all the time.

You're basically whining that one specific build that was overly dominant is now slightly less dominant.

Did Draigo-wing basically automatically win any game that kill points dependent? Yes. Will that mission type be a little rarer? Hopefully.

Are Paladins less effective overall? Maybe....like a tiny bit. Not really.

Did TH/SS terminators get even stupider? Yes. Except maybe they'll be a lot more dakka out and about, which has always been the best way to kill 'em anyway.

Kaldor wrote:

Scottiebhoy wrote:Thanks for clearing that up with the Librarian. So GK termies are only allowed to use HH.

Ive read what it said in the rulebook, but say a Halberd in the GK codex says it confers +2 Init, but then in the rulebook its states its unwieldy with +1 S AP2 as halberds are classed as force axes.
Sorry if im being dense, just trying to get my head round it

There's another part in the same section. It say's that any weapon which has it's own rules, counts as an 'unusual force weapon' and has AP3 in addition to any other rules.

So Halberds, because they have a special rule, count as an unusual weapon, and are AP3.

There was much talk about Draigo being sad... very sad; because his super-kill sword that last week melted everyone's face, now is ap3 :(

I'm pretty sad too.

daedalus-templarius wrote:[

There was much talk about Draigo being sad... very sad; because his super-kill sword that last week melted everyone's face, now is ap3 :(

I'm pretty sad too.

It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.

It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.

On another note, people were already starting to use interceptor squads to last-minute cap, with multiple objectives that becomes even more valuable. Plus they're scoring in one of the scenarios.

I'm wondering if a GK list built around terminators, interceptor squads and henchmen/buildings might not work out great.

It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.

It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.

The Wolf Lord on a TWC with Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman and some Fenrisian Dogs destroys all the Space Marine special characters in the game one on one. Now more than ever.

Therion wrote:

It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.

It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.

The Wolf Lord on a TWC with Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman and some Fenrisian Dogs destroys all the Space Marine special characters in the game one on one. Now more than ever.

I can't see that beating Draigo. As soon as you fail a save......bam.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:

Therion wrote:

It's true, except the same thing happened to most special characters. Mephiston, for instance. Kinda amusingly, a mephy-Draigo fight would be kinda a slapfest for a while until eventually mephy failed a save.

It's not like I exactly think SM captains will be getting powerfist, or anything.....to much risk of getting punked, first. It just makes 2+ save really good.

The Wolf Lord on a TWC with Runic Armor, Storm Shield, Thunder Hammer, Saga of the Bear, Wolftooth Necklace, Wolf Tail Talisman and some Fenrisian Dogs destroys all the Space Marine special characters in the game one on one. Now more than ever.

I can't see that beating Draigo. As soon as you fail a save......bam.

The Wolf Lord is immune to instant death (Eternal Warrior)

Draigo has 4 attacks and hits with 3+, wounds on 4+ (3+ if HH is up), and the Wolf gets 2+ saves. The Wolf has 5 attacks and hits with 3+, wounds with 2+, and Draigo gets 3+ saves. Who do you think will win? PS: This isn't a hard one to figure out.

Not to mention the Wolf being cavalry and not only is a lot faster but also has Hammer of Wrath. If Draigo would get the charge in an unlikely scenario, the Wolf Lord has counter-attack. Insult to injury the Thunder Hammer is concussive and will keep Draigo at initiative 1 after the first round untill he is dead.

You don't mess with the sons of Russ. Not even if you're a Ward Marine.

By the way, Mephiston gets roflstomped even faster (in two close combat phases). Werewolves > Vampires.

Ah, I see it'd the saga of the bear. I don't have the SW codex menmorized, might have helped to mention the eternal warrior bit first time. That's what makes the difference. No need to do out the math.

Sad Draigo is no longer a CC beast... unless they decide to Errata the Titansword to not be balls.

Hey, lets bask in the fact they had the forsight to FAQ everyone the day of the release. Imagine the issues we would have if they waited a month or two if they hadn't FAQed everybody on day 1.

I'm not really sure the Draigo nerf matters. With multiple objectives death stars will be fairly inefficient. A few paladins might be nice, but you'll need much more balanced lists to do well in 6th.

So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?

Stoffer wrote:I'm not really sure the Draigo nerf matters. With multiple objectives death stars will be fairly inefficient. A few paladins might be nice, but you'll need much more balanced lists to do well in 6th.

Depends though. It's always been easy to create an objective zone, stacking your objectives as close to each other as possible and then stretching your Paladin death-star around it to claim three or four objectives at once.

You cant congo line any more 1 unit can only claim 1 objective

starraptor wrote:You cant congo line any more 1 unit can only claim 1 objective

Oh, guess I missed that one. That's a major beat with the nerf-stick.

Honestly I dont think pally lists are going to do well in anything under redicullsly high point games because of there point costs but what I'm trying to do with my 1850 pt list is have several groups of terminators and 1 pally unit because they are still awsome.

A Dread CCW no longer specifies the user must be a walker to gain double strength and it's been deleted from the FAQ. RAW the NDK strikes with Str10 with the fist now. Also, DCCWs and the Nemesis Greatsword aren't Specialist, so again the NDK clearly gets +1A for being armed with two melee weapons.

Paladins are still units of characters, and thus as an elite hammer unit should remain somewhat feasible as they should generate precision strikes with decent reliability.

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?

acekevin8412 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?

No reason to say it doesn't. Hard to see how that beats Str 10 doom fists, though, unless all you're doing is MEQ hunting, and that's a lot to pay for that.

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?

DK seemed just as awful as ever in my game last night.

Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?

Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?

A Stormraven with HB, AC and Hurricanes with psybolts is ridiculously expensive but god it throws a massive amount of shots at high strengths. All of it is twin-linked to boot. I think it's a fairly competitive choice now if you use it well and support it from elsewhere with less points intensive units like Warrior Henchmen in Psybacks. Otherwise you'll run the risk of your army being hopelessly small.

acekevin8412 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?

Yeah, it does.

You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.

Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.

On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...


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daedalus-templarius wrote:

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?

DK seemed just as awful as ever in my game last night.

How so?

daedalus-templarius wrote:Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?

Because I use a Contemptor Dread for my Dreadknight, and it looks awesome. While the Stormraven is ugly. Besides, I prefer to punch things in CC than zoom around shooting them.

Kaldor wrote:
You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.

Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.

On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...

I mean, if you've got the spare points, you can do both. You lose nothing by having Sword/Doomfist, since neither is a Specialist Weapon, the DK still gets +1A, and can choose which weapon to use in each round of combat. So you can be S10 against vehicles, and S6 with rerolls against infantry. Also, since the DK has Smash (being an MC) all of its attacks are at AP2, including the sword.

Definitely, but I find that points are always at a premium in my lists (I spend an entire afternoon yesterday trying to trim 180 points out of a list) so that 35 points for the sword is almost always needed somewhere else. I find this to be doubly true on a Dreadknight, since they run the risk of being very expensive paperweights if you're not careful with them.

On another note, how are people feeling about Landraiders now? I think their 'immunity' to S8 weapons has given them a new lease on life. Especially as a Paladin delivery system.

Now, it's expensive as hell. A Landraider loaded with Paladins will run ~800 points, but it's a sure-fire way to deliver a Paladin payload directly where you need it, with an 18" move in the first turn, a 6" move, 6" deploy and 2D6" assault in turn 2. And with a Psybolt upgrade, the Hurricane bolters on a Crusader will be good at dropping flyers.

Actually, it seems that a DK with a Greatsword can use either the sword or the Doomfist as the primary weapon and still gain +1A for having 2 CCWs.

So you can pick between Str6(7) AP3 with rerolls or Str10 AP2 with no rerolls. You can't do this with the Daemonhammer though which sucks anyway you slice it.

Not to mention the badassery that is the sword. The badass effect should never be discounted


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Xca|iber wrote:

Kaldor wrote:
You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.

Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.

On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...

I mean, if you've got the spare points, you can do both. You lose nothing by having Sword/Doomfist, since neither is a Specialist Weapon, the DK still gets +1A, and can choose which weapon to use in each round of combat. So you can be S10 against vehicles, and S6 with rerolls against infantry. Also, since the DK has Smash (being an MC) all of its attacks are at AP2, including the sword.

You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.

Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.

Kaldor wrote:

acekevin8412 wrote:

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

If I recall, the Greatsword still allows rerolls of hit/wounds right?

Yeah, it does.

You used to pay 35 points to upgrade your S6 DK to something that could re-roll hits/wounds/armour pen. Not a bad deal. Still expensive, but not too bad.

Now you pay 35 points to downgrade your S10 to S6, with the re-rolls. Definitely too expensive. I've got plenty of stuff in my Grey Knights force that will eat MEQs for breakfast. I want my DK to be hunting monstrous creatures, wraithlords, vehicles, killy independent characters, etc.

On the flipside, does a Nemesis Doomfist still count as a Nemesis Force Weapon? In that, can it still cause ID? I know most things are going to be ID'ed by S10 anyway, but I'm curious...


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daedalus-templarius wrote:

Kaldor wrote:So what are the thoughts on a Dreadknight now? I always like the Nemesis Greatsword, but if it's true that it gains S10 from using it's Doomfists, it's hard to justify the cost of the Greatsword.

Also, does a Dreadknight with a sword and a doomfist get +1 attack for wielding two weapons now?

DK seemed just as awful as ever in my game last night.

How so?

daedalus-templarius wrote:Why take a Dreadknight with a teleporter/incinerator when you could take another Stormraven Gunship?

Because I use a Contemptor Dread for my Dreadknight, and it looks awesome. While the Stormraven is ugly. Besides, I prefer to punch things in CC than zoom around shooting them.

DK has never panned out for me in any game, barely ever kills anything even with incinerator, just isn't worth it.

I jump it over into something, it shoots, kills a middling amount, then gets lit up and dies.

While I love the model, it just isn't a cost-effective unit in my eyes; I'd much rather take something else... like a Landraider or a Stormraven, for almost the same amount of points.

Grey Templar wrote:

You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.

Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.

Reread the first sentence of the Smash special rule.

"All of the close combat attacks of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP2... Additionally, when it makes close combat attacks, it can choose to instead make a Smash Attack..."

With the increase in the amount of Night Fighting there is now it is more survivable.

And you can charge a unit and challenge the PF sergeant. Either way, you don't have to worry about the PF anymore. And PWs are much less scary now, only TH terminators will threaten a DK in combat now and DKs shouldn't be anywhere near them.


I just used a DK for the first time on Sunday and it was awsome. Use the Challenge rules to your advantage, and its 2D6 rerollable(maybe) assault range.

Doomfists got buffed too.

Grey Templar wrote:You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.

Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.

Another reason to leave the sword at home then. I mean, I'll still whack a suitable weapon in the beasts fist, because it looks cool, but I'll be making sure my opponent knows it's got two doomfists.


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daedalus-templarius wrote:DK has never panned out for me in any game, barely ever kills anything even with incinerator, just isn't worth it.

I jump it over into something, it shoots, kills a middling amount, then gets lit up and dies.

While I love the model, it just isn't a cost-effective unit in my eyes; I'd much rather take something else... like a Landraider or a Stormraven, for almost the same amount of points.

Ah, well. I've always used it as a combat model. If it's shooting at something, it's not doing it's job IMO.

Guys, really. Smash passively grants AP2. It's the first sentence in the rule.

Dang, must have glossed over that one.

hrm... with all these talks of the DK, I feel silly for modeling with a thunder hammer now. What's the point of the hammer now ??? arrg...
Also, with str 10 already, is there really much point in its psychic powers anymore or can it take extra powers somehow?

It can be Str7 with the Sword is the point of HH. and in the event of any Str debuffs it may experience.

I wish it could take some of the new powers. Dreadknight with Divination would = Win

I just had a match and used a naked DK with teleporter against orks and it just mopped the floor with them. The fear rule that MCs have makes even better.

I'm not too familiar with the GK codex, but the new rules seem like they'll mostly make GKs worse.

Kaldor wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:You only get AP2 if you use Smash, otherwise you are just whatever weapon your using's AP.

Smash isn't a static thing, its something you use. And going from 4 attacks to 2 is not the best for killing terminators.

Another reason to leave the sword at home then. I mean, I'll still whack a suitable weapon in the beasts fist, because it looks cool, but I'll be making sure my opponent knows it's got two doomfists.


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daedalus-templarius wrote:DK has never panned out for me in any game, barely ever kills anything even with incinerator, just isn't worth it.

I jump it over into something, it shoots, kills a middling amount, then gets lit up and dies.

While I love the model, it just isn't a cost-effective unit in my eyes; I'd much rather take something else... like a Landraider or a Stormraven, for almost the same amount of points.

Ah, well. I've always used it as a combat model. If it's shooting at something, it's not doing it's job IMO.

Well, I'd certainly like it to be a 'combat' model, but you can't charge after a warp-shunt...