Do you think a Sister of Battle would ever submit to Chaos or otherwise go renegade? Or are they immune like the Grey Knights?

I just thought a Sisters of Chaos army would look badass.

The SoB are so extra-immune...other forces smear their lifeblood on thier armor to participate in their immunity...

I'd wait for the release of chaos to see who is a possible follower in 6th ed.

Mirael Sabathiel. My recommendation - bomb from orbit. DO NOT MAKE CONTACT. Perhaps even exterminatus. She has turned an entire Mission of Sisters initially sent to eliminate her and even a squad of Black Templars to the Dark Prince.

Yeah, Sisters can be corrupted. GW has made a special effort at depicting this at every opportunity until recently. GW's new model (C:GK) is just to show them being murdered and mutilated by their "incorruptible" allies despite not being corrupt themselves.

Blasphemer! The sisters will never fall to chaos. People that skewer their reports to say otherwise shall be purged.

I'll get this ready and leave it over here for later. It will be needed.



Only one sister has ever willingly fallen to Chaos. The idea is usually met with the same reception as Chaos Grey Knights, Chaos Tau, Female Marines, etc.

yes they can turn to Chaos, and you can make certain people extra mad about it by modeling them to have turned to Slaanesh.

You can find some examples of models by throwing Chaos Battle Sisters into Google.

There's one "official" SOB who's willingly turned to Chaos (however coerced that fall may have been). Outside of that? Hasn't happened in studio sources.

Making it a frequent event kind of ruins the impact of the character of Mirael Sabathiel.

Mirael Sabathiel sounds like a perfect candidate. I doubt I'd get to play with such an army, but it would be a nice and fluffy one.

Well, she's not an army, she's a single character. You could probably use her as an IC in a CSM or Daemon army, but she alone is the only Fallen Sister. I'm not sure where Tadashi is getting that she turned a Mission of Sisters and some Black Templars.

Psienesis wrote:Well, she's not an army, she's a single character. You could probably use her as an IC in a CSM or Daemon army, but she alone is the only Fallen Sister. I'm not sure where Tadashi is getting that she turned a Mission of Sisters and some Black Templars.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Miriael_Sabathiel This article says, or at least implies, that she turned over some Sisters and Black Templars to her side.

She's not the only fallen Sister. She's the only one who turned voluntarily.

Don't take 40k wikia seriously, it treats fan written material as fact and tends to be spotty at times.

Well, it's definitely true that she's not the only SoB who's ever worshiped Chaos.

Tadashi wrote:Mirael Sabathiel. My recommendation - bomb from orbit. DO NOT MAKE CONTACT. Perhaps even exterminatus. She has turned an entire Mission of Sisters initially sent to eliminate her and even a squad of Black Templars to the Dark Prince.

I happen to know the last bit was written by a fan. There is (sadly) nothing about Miriael other than a short story by Dan Abnett (where she kills her former Canoness) and her cards in the Dark Millennium TCG. That being said, they do make her look impressive - Miriael Sabathiel has her own private "crusade" force with whom to pillage the Pyrus Reach, leading her terrible armies from an Inferno-class battlecruiser and including a bodyguard of Emperor's Children Terminators and Daemonettes in her retinue. No other Sisters, though.

Another incident from licensed material where a whole bunch of Sisters was turned to Chaos happened in the graphic novel "Daemonifuge". In it, a captured Keeper of Secrets managed to subtly influence the Sisters Pronatus who were experimenting on it, which ended with most of the convent's inhabitants being driven mad and subsequently possessed by Chaos. Unlike with the charismatic and intelligent (and thus all the more dangerous Miriael), the resulting band of "Chaos Sisters" had little resemblance to their former selfs, though - essentially, they were a bunch of hideous demons with vague Sororitas-like features in their hair and the deformed wargear, mindlessly throwing themselves at whoever their master, said Keeper of Secrets, wished destroyed.

In general, the Adepta Sororitas have always been described as nigh-incorruptible (due to their humble and devoted lifestyle as well as various cleansing and castigation rituals or pre-novitiate genetic screenings), which was reflected in Abnett's "The Invitation" by Miriael being presented as a horrific exception that had never occurred before (and led the local Governor dismiss reports of her as a sham at first) - but of course another interpretation might be that other incidents have simply been well hidden, any witnesses eliminated or mindwiped to ensure the continueing prevalence of the Sisterhood's image of shining purity. GW studio material itself does not mention turned Sisters anywhere; there is one paragraph in the 5E Grey Knights Codex where it mentions a group of Sisters being corrupted by a demonic "Bloodtide", yet apparently this had only a weakening effect on them as the text goes on to describe not how the victims turned against their former Sisters, but are instead slaughtered by the boss demon's Bloodletters.

It should be pointed out that, unlike often claimed throughout the fandom, 40k does not follow any dictated canon or consistency (so explained by various writers and game designers who have to know, such as Gav Thorpe, Andy Hoare or Aaron Dembski-Bowden), which is the reason for the occasional conflict between various books. This means that you as the player are free to pick and choose your preferred interpretation. Do you subscribe solely to GW material where not a single Sister has ever served Chaos? Alright. Do you want a whole bunch of Chaos Sisters as their own army? Go right ahead. Or do you prefer a single Miriael-like individual in the HQ of a CSM warband? That's perfectly fine as well. You decide, and neither outcome can be "wrong". It all depends on which particular sources you want to stick to, as at times they present different versions of the same theme. Loyalty, devotion, purity and resilience against taint is one of the Sisters' main themes in GW's own books, however, so I would recommend at least a very good explanation if you wish to deviate from this image, just so that you increase your army's compatibility to other people's perception of the setting.

Enjoy converting!

[edit] added a bunch o' links

If GW falls down low enough to make "sisters of chaos", they will propably make a whole seris of models ranging from chaos inquisition, chaos necrons to chaos orks and chaos tyranids and even CHAOS chaos space marines (Double heresy?!) .

Manchu wrote:She's not the only fallen Sister. She's the only one who turned voluntarily.

This is the important distinction for sure.

Miriael did not turn "voluntarily", she was tortured and who-knows-what by the Emperor's Children for months.

And GW books still do not mention a single Chaos Sister ever, so it's anyone's guess. I do think Miriael is awesome, however, so I adopted her into my personal interpretation of the 'verse.

Chaos Inquisition = GK

Chaos Chaos Space Marines = BT

Manchu wrote:Chaos Inquisition = GK

The Dark Millennium TCG actually does include a Radical Inquisitor and his forces allied with Chaos!



It's not unthinkable, I guess.

Manchu wrote:Chaos Chaos Space Marines = BT

Not Space Wolves?

No, the SW are bred true by the Emperor's own hand. BT are hate heresy so much that they'll commit heresy to end heresy. Basically, heresy heresy heresy heresy.

Manchu wrote:No, the SW are bred true by the Emperor's own hand.

Well, I'm sure people would have said that about Horus some time ago.
SW have a mutated geneseed causing them to go into mindless rage, and they reportedly commit heretical rituals in their fortress. I smell Khorne.

Matter of interpretation, tho.

Lynata wrote:Miriael did not turn "voluntarily", she was tortured and who-knows-what by the Emperor's Children for months.

I guess it's true that we don't know one way or the other. Since she seems to have been granted daemonic powers, rather than simply being possessed against her will as with others, I figured she must have cooperated (in the sense of what we Catholics call obsequium religiosum).

Ahh..
Chaos Sisters, check.
Nuh uh, check.
Miriel, check.
Bloodtide reference, check
Manchu and Lynata, check

Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

Lynata wrote:Matter of interpretation, tho.

I would have agreed before Prospero Falls.

pretre wrote:Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

And now pretre ... check. All that's left is Melissia.

pretre wrote:Ahh..
Chaos Sisters, check.
Nuh uh, check.
Miriel, check.
Bloodtide reference, check
Manchu and Lynata, check
Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

^ best thread summary ever.

pretre wrote:Ahh..
Chaos Sisters, check.
Nuh uh, check.
Miriel, check.
Bloodtide reference, check
Manchu and Lynata, check

Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

Missed a couple:

GW are Chaos, check
SW are khorne worshippers, check

Manchu wrote:

pretre wrote:Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

And now pretre ... check. All that's left is Melissia.

I'll fill in for Mel here.

Sisters do not turn to Chaos.
The idea that they turn is so silly that it warrants no real discussion and it makes my brain hurt.

The only reason we have Miriael is that she is a holdover of old fluff; which for some reason continues to be kept around like that weird neighbor you have who stuffed his poodle.

Manchu wrote:

pretre wrote:Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

And now pretre ... check. All that's left is Melissia.

Be careful. She's like Beetlejuice, but with more key words and harder to get rid of.

Manchu wrote:

pretre wrote:Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

And now pretre ... check. All that's left is Melissia.

Dude, I think she got wise and stays away. 3 strikes you're out or something.

Manchu wrote:She's not the only fallen Sister. She's the only one who turned voluntarily.

But, the only way to fall is voluntarily? How else would it happen? Someone just walks into the barracks one day and says "Hey, you're a Khorne worshiper now" and they go "Oh, ok"

I mean, you could be coerced into serving Chaos, if for example your commanding officer defected. Or maybe through some kind of mind control.

But the only way to become a bona fide servant of Chaos is to do so willingly. I mean, that's the whole insidious nature of Chaos, offering gifts to mortals in return for service. It's what makes fighting Chaos so difficult, because you never know going into battle if your friends beside you will turn on you because of some whispered offer in their head. And you never know, coming back from the battle, how many of your friends will later succumb to those offers of power and rewards.

and just to follow on, and head off the Bloodtide nonsense at the pass:

Grey Knights are not, and have never been immune to the powers of Chaos. They can still get blasted a bolt of change, infected by Nurgles rot or yes, even turned into savages by the Bloodtide. A warrior affected by the Bloodtide has been 'corrupted' by Chaos in the same way that a warrior who has been incinerated by Tzeench has been 'corrupted'.

They are, however, immune to the [i[temptations[/i] of Chaos, whereas Sisters are not.

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

pretre wrote:Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

And now pretre ... check. All that's left is Melissia.

I'll fill in for Mel here.

Sisters do not turn to Chaos.
The idea that they turn is so silly that it warrants no real discussion and it makes my brain hurt.

The only reason we have Miriael is that she is a holdover of old fluff; which for some reason continues to be kept around like that weird neighbor you have who stuffed his poodle.

Aww crap, how'd I forget Kan.

Will you forgive me, Kan?

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters do not turn to Chaos.
The idea that they turn is so silly that it warrants no real discussion and it makes my brain hurt.

If I knew what her voice sounded like, I'd have read that in her voice.

Kaldor wrote:But the only way to become a bona fide servant of Chaos is to do so willingly.

Yep, that's exactly my argument. See last page.

Manchu wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Sisters do not turn to Chaos.
The idea that they turn is so silly that it warrants no real discussion and it makes my brain hurt.

If I knew what he voice sounded like, I'd have read that in her voice.

Just use the [melissia] tag

For example [melissia]pithy statement without quoting the thing you are responding to[/melissia]

Okay, I'll stop there.

pretre wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Manchu wrote:

pretre wrote:Man, I hadn't realized a week had passed already.

And now pretre ... check. All that's left is Melissia.

I'll fill in for Mel here.

Sisters do not turn to Chaos.
The idea that they turn is so silly that it warrants no real discussion and it makes my brain hurt.

The only reason we have Miriael is that she is a holdover of old fluff; which for some reason continues to be kept around like that weird neighbor you have who stuffed his poodle.

Aww crap, how'd I forget Kan.

Will you forgive me, Kan?

*waves hand majestically*
I'll allow your transgression, Pretre.

For now...

Eh, I dunno, I think I like the concept of the character. Not that I think that "Chaos Sisters" is necessarily a great idea, but the fact that she represents the *one* time that Chaos has succeeded in coercing a Sister to Fall, albeit it's not like they waved a Daemonsword and a spiked bustier at her and she was like "Ooh! Shiny! Gimme!", but I think it upholds the fact that the Sisters are, essentially, human (and not super-engineered to be immune to Chaos like the GK) who have only ever died in fighting Chaos or been corrupted, unwillingly, by the various Chaos Powers. This one character represents both the strength of the Sisterhood (she did, after all, survive the tortures of the Emperor's Children) and the potency of Chaos (they did, after all, get her to turn). Too many characters like these, though, and it loses its impact. I think, also, that it maintains the possibility, however remote, of a redemptive arc for the character.

Kanluwen wrote:*waves hand majestically*
I'll allow your transgression, Pretre.

For now...

I should really make a cut and paste response to these threads that wraps up that whole thing so I can just drop it in whenever one pops up. It will save us all a lot of effort.

Psienesis wrote:but I think it upholds the fact that the Sisters are, essentially, human

Yep. One sister alone falling to Chaos is a tribute to them. Can you imagine what it would mean if the Guard could say that? Even the Ultramarines can't make such a claim.

Kaldor wrote:

Manchu wrote:She's not the only fallen Sister. She's the only one who turned voluntarily.

But, the only way to fall is voluntarily? How else would it happen?

Tortured?
Tricked?

I mean, I figure the way most people turn to Chaos is by being tricked. Certainly that was what happened to the most famous of traitors, Horus. The idea of someone voluntarily being turned is by finding out about Chaos on their own, and deciding that sounded good, and made the conscious choice. Others might make conscious choices, but that could be via some kind of subterfuge.

What do we know about some of the Primarchs?

Lorgar sought out Chaos and turned voluntarily.
Horus was tricked by Lorgar and Chaos.
Fulgrim was possessed by the daemon in his sword, and ultimately saw his folly, shortly before the daemon trapped his soul permanently (maybe, maybe not? Primarchs short story inconclusive).

Of those three, only Lorgar turned "voluntarily".

Speaking of Ultras. I really like that story with the SOB and the Ultramarine that falls to Chaos that she ends up chasing across half the universe. I enjoyed it.

Daemonblood by Ben Counter. It's awesome indeed!

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I mean, I figure the way most people turn to Chaos is by being tricked. Certainly that was what happened to the most famous of traitors, Horus.

In my universe Horus was an intelligent, power hungry egoistic genius, not some stupid school-kid who got tricked. It annoys me so much that they ruined the opportunity to flesh out his character.

Well, there's also the old whisper-to-possesion deal. Fulgrim's fall was much better handled than Horus's and Fulgrim was only willing up to a point. Too bad for him that he didn't have the power to resist possession at that point.

1.) Chaos Sisters is in the top 5 of lamest army ideas in 40k.
2.) It is an idea 50% of all naughty teens have, but few are bold enough to express in public
3.) Grey Knights are said to be immune to Chaos. What do they take to make sure? Sororitas Blood. Go figure.
4.) Possible that one Sister may fall to Chaos, maybe even two if you are lucky. Do you intend to make a 40k army with 2 models? Or fill it up with Chaos Tau, Chaos Grey Knights and female Space Marines?

That would work too. Save that one KH.

Manchu wrote:Well, there's also the old whisper-to-possesion deal. Fulgrim's fall was much better handled than Horus's and Fulgrim was only willing up to a point. Too bad for him that he didn't have the power to resist possession at that point.

I never really liked Fulgrim's fall either. It should have been more of a Dorian Grey story, with Fulgrim becoming more and more foul in return for rewards from Slaanesh, with him first hearing the voice of Slaanesh in that temple.

Kroothawk wrote:Chaos Sisters is in the top 5 of lamest army ideas in 40k.

- Chaos Sisters
- Chaos Tau
- Femarines
- Squats

What's the one I'm missing?

Chaos Grey Knights.

Khorne Sorcerers?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:Chaos Grey Knights.

Ah, I was so close!

Squats really don't fall into the group with the other 4. I have seen good squat armies as counts-as. I've never seen good armies of the other 4.

Manchu wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Chaos Sisters is in the top 5 of lamest army ideas in 40k.

- Chaos Sisters
- Chaos Tau
- Femarines
- Squats

What's the one I'm missing?

Whoa whoa whoa.

Squats are not lame.

And, they're officially back in the canon as of the 6th Edition rulebook! So, unlike Ladymarines, they actually exist.

Ohh cool new Human variants - nice Maybe new models ahead

My book arrives tomorrow - can't wait.

IF the OP wants a Chaos Sisters Army - an easy fluffy way is so to say that those who wear the armour are not adn never have been Sororitas. The debased armur is now worn by servants of the Powers of Chaos who enjoy taunting the true worshipers of Him.

Sure... my biggest complaint about a "Chaos Sisters" army is ones where it's not so much the look but attempting to adopt the SOB Codex into "....but for Chaos" rules, such as "Acts of Faith... but for Chaos". That's where I'm like "er, no.". If you want to use SoB models all spiked up for Chaos foot-troops? Sure. Use the Traitor Guard or vanilla CSM rules for people in power armor, that's fine. Don't try to shoe-horn in using actual Sister rules for an army that may have once been Sisters but aren't any more.

The best use of a Chaos Sister so far was as a single model in an Emperor's Children CSM HQ. I just can't find those awesome photos anymore - it was some French guy who converted her, and the mini looked quite good. Oh well.

Here's another nice sculpt:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And, they're officially back in the canon as of the 6th Edition rulebook! So, unlike Ladymarines, they actually exist.

Hah, nice find!

Psienesis wrote:Sure... my biggest complaint about a "Chaos Sisters" army is ones where it's not so much the look but attempting to adopt the SOB Codex into "....but for Chaos" rules, such as "Acts of Faith... but for Chaos". That's where I'm like "er, no.". If you want to use SoB models all spiked up for Chaos foot-troops? Sure. Use the Traitor Guard or vanilla CSM rules for people in power armor, that's fine. Don't try to shoe-horn in using actual Sister rules for an army that may have once been Sisters but aren't any more.

Why not? "Chaos" is a far better explanation for their magical powers than the Emperor giving them divine intervention, lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:

Veteran Sergeant wrote:And, they're officially back in the canon as of the 6th Edition rulebook! So, unlike Ladymarines, they actually exist.

Hah, nice find!

Not mine. Somebody on another forum pointed it out and I asked for a picture. I am just the bearer of good news to Dakka.

Felinids?

Reeeealllly now. And the squats being on this list indicates to you that they are not lame?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lynata wrote:Here's another nice sculpt:

I know this is true to her "official" art but the "official" art was pretty lame (I actually usually love that particular artist, as with his PF stuff) and a kind-of-spikey sister is ... meh. Not really adequate for her unique status.

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:Chaos Inquisition = GK

The Dark Millennium TCG actually does include a Radical Inquisitor and his forces allied with Chaos!

Spoiler:

It's not unthinkable, I guess.

Manchu wrote:Chaos Chaos Space Marines = BT

Not Space Wolves?

I lol'd for some reason at that card XD

It's because he is totally radical, of course.

Kanluwen wrote:It's because he is totally radical, of course.

Righteous!

(On a side note, I hit Canoness! Sweet.)

Psienesis wrote:Sure... my biggest complaint about a "Chaos Sisters" army is ones where it's not so much the look but attempting to adopt the SOB Codex into "....but for Chaos" rules, such as "Acts of Faith... but for Chaos". That's where I'm like "er, no.". If you want to use SoB models all spiked up for Chaos foot-troops? Sure. Use the Traitor Guard or vanilla CSM rules for people in power armor, that's fine. Don't try to shoe-horn in using actual Sister rules for an army that may have once been Sisters but aren't any more.

Well you would have to consider what an "Act Of Faith" is. Faith by it self is belief in something. So Chaos sisters with their WD codex is perfectly viable. You could literally replace every mention of the word emprah with chaos and you would have chaos sisters.

this also explains why St. Celestine keeps coming back.....sorta like Dare i say it Lucious

Now that i gak all over your Fluff, just Remember i am wearing fire proof clothing

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:You could literally replace every mention of the word emprah with chaos and you would have chaos sisters.

You could also go to town on your genitals with a cheese grater. Doesn't make it a good idea.

Now that i gak all over your Fluff, just Remember i am wearing fire proof clothing

So you're saying you're just trolling?

Gharron wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:Chaos Inquisition = GK

The Dark Millennium TCG actually does include a Radical Inquisitor and his forces allied with Chaos!

Spoiler:

It's not unthinkable, I guess.

Manchu wrote:Chaos Chaos Space Marines = BT

Not Space Wolves?

I lol'd for some reason at that card XD

It looks like he's about to kick someone.

Well you would have to consider what an "Act Of Faith" is. Faith by it self is belief in something. So Chaos sisters with their WD codex is perfectly viable. You could literally replace every mention of the word emprah with chaos and you would have chaos sisters.

It's the fundamental, unshakeable belief in the divinity of the God-Emperor of Mankind, which evidences itself in events upon the battlefield that are described by onlookers as "miraculous".

When the forces of Chaos attempt the debased acts of fealty and worship of the Ruinous Powers, it is called "sorcery".

"They're just labels" argument in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...

THE_GODLYNESS wrote:this also explains why St. Celestine keeps coming back.....

My personal pet-theory is that Living Saints are created just like Slaanesh was - excessive emotional outbursts leading to a "warp spirit" being born. Just instead of ecstasy they're born of, well, faith, and they possess one of the faithful instead of manifesting by themselves.
Just one idea of many, mind you.

As for "Chaos" versions of AoF, I'd simply explain them as psychic powers picked up after corruption. That said, I too believe that it would be best to simply use CSM rules for them. I just doubt they'd be able to achieve the same state of mind they had in the convents. Plus, using CSM rules would allow better integration into a CSM army -and- with the new 6E rules you could even throw in a couple allied demons for good measure.

Veteran Sergeant wrote:Why not? "Chaos" is a far better explanation for their magical powers than the Emperor giving them divine intervention, lol.

I still think the best explanation is the one that's actually in the Codex. You know, the one you keep ignoring.

pretre wrote:On a side note, I hit Canoness! Sweet.

Congrats, Mylady!

Lol @Manchu
Umm, I'm a dude Canoness, Lynata. but thanks!

pretre wrote:Umm, I'm a dude Canoness, Lynata. but thanks!

I know - or rather, I assumed so - but Canoness is your title now ... so deal with it!

Manchu wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Chaos Sisters is in the top 5 of lamest army ideas in 40k.

- Chaos Sisters
- Chaos Tau
- Femarines
- Squats

What's the one I'm missing?

Kanluwen wrote:Chaos Grey Knights.

Skip squats, add "army X ... in PINK".

pretre wrote:(On a side note, I hit Canoness! Sweet.)

Never hit a canoness

Yeah, those fethers will rip your arm off and bear you with it.

Like this:

Exactly

pretre wrote:Exactly

Spares me the trouble of reprimanding misogynists.

It's not unheard of, but very, very rare.

DOOMBREAD wrote:It's not unheard of, but very, very rare.

It is not unheard of that a single US soldier turns Islamic fundamentalist and becomes a terrorist. But that doesn't mean that it makes sense to model a USMC army with Al-Kaida insignia.

I find it hard to beleave that a total mortal (sisters) and a vet space marine(to me that's all a grey knight is ) are more resilient to chaos then the sons of the emperor. beside the min. the GK killed the sisters to save themselves that is an act of chaos. No matter the reason they did it for.

I think they just used the same logic behind rubbing cheetah blood on an engine.

Steel Angel wrote:...the GK killed the sisters to save themselves that is an act of chaos. No matter the reason they did it for.

There's a reason the current version of Grey Knights are called Khornate Knights and why the older version are still referred to as Daemonhunters.

Yep, it's because they're so classy.

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servents, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the ordies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons through to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the nith day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga;nath's spirit can escape his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warip, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

n0t_u wrote:Yep, it's because they're so classy.

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servents, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the ordies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons through to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the nith day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga;nath's spirit can escape his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warip, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

Typical Wardian-heresy...

Note that all Grey Knights are psykers, so what's the point of even having Librarians at all, when their purpose is to provide psychic support for regular Astartes? Khornate Knights sound like a mix of next-generation Thousand Sons and Dark Angels. And the former never even went so far as to make use of blood magic or daemon weapons prior to the Burning of Prospero. Its even doubtful they were aware many of Tizca's inhabitants were Tzeentchian Cultists.

Tadashi wrote:There's a reason the current version of Grey Knights are called Khornate Knights and why the older version are still referred to as Daemonhunters.

Yes, there is a reason: the internet is an echo chamber of ignorance. Killing your allies to achieve greater goals is pretty standard Imperial fare. In the old book, GK had no tolerance for radical inquisitors. That doesn't mean that, seeing themselves as above temptation, they would not employ radical methods. In fact, the old dex fluff (all less-than-two-pages of it) even mentions them learning from their daemonic foes. None of this makes them Chaos-aligned. And even if it did, calling them "Khornate Knights" would be the stupidest possible way of describing a Space Marine chapter full of psykers.

Manchu wrote:And even if it did, calling them "Khornate Knights" would be the stupidest possible way of describing a Space Marine chapter full of psykers.

Last I looked, sanctioned psychic abilities are legal, but sorcery, which includes blood magic and the use of daemon weapons, is ABSOLUTELY forbidden. Daemonhunters would just have bombed the planet from orbit or performed exterminatus - the Sisters would still have died, but in a more honorable fashion as opposed to being used as 'fuel' for sorcery. And Khorne does tolerate psykers so long as they aid the bloodshed in his name. Typical Wardian-heresy.

They are however exceptionally rare as he looks down on them.

n0t_u wrote:They are however exceptionally rare as he looks down on them.

That they are...usually if the bloodshed is getting REALLY bloody even by 40k standards, and Khorne wants more, or, more likely to happen, a Champion of Chaos Undivided invokes his power.

So you wouldn't call doing blood magic with innocent blood that they spilled not chaos aligned?

"guardians and priests , roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar."

**********************************************

"the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."



Can anyone tell me the diff?

Tadashi wrote:Last I looked ... sorcery, which includes blood magic and the use of daemon weapons, is ABSOLUTELY forbidden.

Would you mind citing the source where radical methods are ABSOLUTELY forbidden to the Grey Knights?

And Khorne does tolerate psykers so long as they aid the bloodshed in his name.

What does it matter what Khorne tolerates among the servants of others? He despises psykers and will not have them as his own. So it remains idiotic to call GK "Khornate Knights" because they performed some kind of magic ritual. I guess "Tzeentchian Knights" doesn't have the same ring? Or, this whole Mat Ward hate thing is just poorly thought out ...

Steel Angel wrote:So you wouldn't call doing blood magic with innocent blood that they spilled not chaos aligned?

"guardians and priests , roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar."

**********************************************

"the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."



Can anyone tell me the diff?

None. Daemonhunters would simply have incinerated the whole planet from orbit as opposed to doing Khorne's work for him.

Steel Angel wrote:Can anyone tell me the diff?

It's right there in the text: the corrupted are killing people as offerings to Chaos; the GK are killing people to make an amulet to fight Chaos. Worship versus fight.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:Daemonhunters would simply have incinerated the whole planet from orbit as opposed to doing Khorne's work for him.

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows.

Incinerate from orbit, hanf-to-hand combat, whatever, it's all skulls for the skull throne.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Last I looked ... sorcery, which includes blood magic and the use of daemon weapons, is ABSOLUTELY forbidden.

Would you mind citing the source where radical methods are ABSOLUTELY forbidden to the Grey Knights?

Oh good, that means I can give Chaos Psychic Powers and Chaos Icons/Marks on Khornate Knight armies since they're allowed to use any method to defeat Chaos. I can even give them Gauss Weapons and Holo-Fields for vehicles.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Daemonhunters would simply have incinerated the whole planet from orbit as opposed to doing Khorne's work for him.

Khorne cares not from whence the blood flows.

Incinerate from orbit, hanf-to-hand combat, whatever, it's all skulls for the skull throne.

Thousand Sons got burned even though they didn't use blood magic or daemon weapons...Russ and the Wolves of Fenris should be loosed on Titan.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:Would you mind citing the source where radical methods are ABSOLUTELY forbidden to the Grey Knights?

Oh good, that means I can give Chaos Psychic Powers and Chaos Icons/Marks on Khornate Knight armies since they're allowed to use any method to defeat Chaos. I can even give them Gauss Weapons and Holo-Fields for vehicles.

In other words, you don't have a source ...

Tadashi wrote:Thousand Sons got burned even though they didn't use blood magic or daemon weapons...Russ and the Wolves of Fenris should be loosed on Titan.

A lot has changed since the fall of Prospero. Like how there are Librarians again ...

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Thousand Sons got burned even though they didn't use blood magic or daemon weapons...Russ and the Wolves of Fenris should be loosed on Titan.

A lot has changed since the fall of Prospero. Like how there are Librarians again ...

The Edicts of Nikaea were amended by either Malcador or Guilliman during or after the Siege, or even by the Emperor before the Siege, since Index Astartes mentions Him directing Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians against Chaos Sorcerers. And that's beside the point - Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery, by all rights Titan and Ward's abominations should be burned by the Space Wolves. Bring back the oldcrons and the Daemonhunters.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Last I looked ... sorcery, which includes blood magic and the use of daemon weapons, is ABSOLUTELY forbidden.

Would you mind citing the source where radical methods are ABSOLUTELY forbidden to the Grey Knights?

Oh good, that means I can give Chaos Psychic Powers and Chaos Icons/Marks on Khornate Knight armies since they're allowed to use any method to defeat Chaos. I can even give them Gauss Weapons and Holo-Fields for vehicles.

Do whatever you want in your games. I won't be letting you do that in my games.

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

Steel Angel wrote:So you wouldn't call doing blood magic with innocent blood that they spilled not chaos aligned?

"guardians and priests , roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar."

**********************************************

"the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."



Can anyone tell me the diff?

Well, the intent is different, and the result is different?

Are you new to 40K?

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

The Edicts of Nikaea EXPLICITLY forbid the practice of sorcery. The only reason Librarians still exist is because they were amended by either the Emperor, Malcador, or Guilliman. But sorcery is still forbidden, otherwise there's no point in declaring Chapters and Inquisitiors renegade and extremis diabolus for using daemonhosts and other such 'radical' methods.

Steel Angel wrote:So you wouldn't call doing blood magic with innocent blood that they spilled not chaos aligned?

"guardians and priests , roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar."

**********************************************

"the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons."



Can anyone tell me the diff?

Well, the intent is different, and the result is different?

Are you new to 40K?

n0t_u wrote:Yep, it's because they're so classy.

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servents, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the ordies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons through to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the nith day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga;nath's spirit can escape his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warip, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

Codex: Chaos p41
The Black Sorceries of Daemomancy rely upon certain elements, some physical, others spiritual. The offering of these components in correct quantities and order is Daemomancy . Blood, sweat, hair, bone, fear, loathing and hatred are the Ingredienta Majoris, common to all conjurations and summonings. Dependant on the Nefarious Power to be be entreated, certain Ingredienta Minoris will also be required.

Tadashi wrote: since Index Astartes mentions Him directing Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians against Chaos Sorcerers

Which IA article is this from?

While I love some Ward-bashing because of his bloodtide story, this is about corrupting Sororitas, not corrupting Grey knights.

Pilau Rice wrote:

n0t_u wrote:Yep, it's because they're so classy.

Chaos comes to the Basilica of St. Mariel on the world of Van Horne. A statue of the Emperor is accidentally damaged during renovation work of the inner sanctum, disrupting the forgotten stasis-reliquary within. As the ancient prison crumbles to dust, the Bloodthirster Ka'jagga'nath, Lord of the Bloodtide, breaks free. At his bellowed command, a tide of gore washes through the vaults, corrupting everything and everyone it touches. The basilica's guardians and priests, so recently counted amongst the Emperor's most virtuous servents, roam the nearby streets seizing hapless citizens to use as blood sacrifices upon the tainted altar. For eight days and nights the ordies of gore continue, each fresh death luring yet more Daemons through to the mortal world. Hour by hour, the Bloodtide spreads further and further across Van Horne - it is estimated that the entire planet will be enveloped in a matter of days. On the morning of the nith day, Sisters of Battle from the Order of the Ebon Chalice assault the basilica. Some Battle Sisters are corrupted on contact with the Bloodtide. Those who endure fight valiantly, but most are slaughtered by the Bloodletters atop the basilica walls. It is only when the Grey Knights' 4th Brotherhood arrives on Van Horne that the Bloodtide is abated.

Needing a talisman of purity to protect against the Bloodtide's taint, the Grey Knights' first act is to turn their blades upon the surviving Sisters of Battle. The innocent blood thus spilled is then mixed with blessed oils and used to anoint the Grey Knights' armour and weapons. So shielded, the Grey Knights are able to stride through the goreflood without risk of corruption, and they smash their way into the basilica's heart. A trio of Librarians lead the attack, enunciating the cants of cleansing that repel the Bloodtide wherever they tread. In the end, Ka'jagga'nath is only defeated through the selfless sacrifice of Ordan, Champion of the 4th Brotherhood. Before Ka'jagga;nath's spirit can escape his ruined body, the Grey Knights are able to cast the Daemon's dark presence back into the Warip, and the psychic backwash banishes the Bloodtide and the Daemons it drew forth.

Codex: Chaos p41
The Black Sorceries of Daemomancy rely upon certain elements, some physical, others spiritual. The offering of these components in correct quantities and order is Daemomancy . Blood, sweat, hair, bone, fear, loathing and hatred are the Ingredienta Majoris, common to all conjurations and summonings. Dependant on the Nefarious Power to be be entreated, certain Ingredienta Minoris will also be required.

I don't understand...are you agreeing with me that the Khornate Knights use blood magic or not?

Tadashi wrote: since Index Astartes mentions Him directing Blood Angel and Imperial Fist Librarians against Chaos Sorcerers

Which IA article is this from?

Index Astartes III

Kroothawk wrote:While I love some Ward-bashing because of his bloodtide story, this is about corrupting Sororitas, not corrupting Grey knights.

Quite, but in relation to the Bloodtide story both are connected to the other so still on topic just about maybe? Sisters are less likely to fall to taint or corruption than Grey Knights as the later requires blood of purer sisters to remain taintless.

Tadashi wrote:

I don't understand...are you agreeing with me that the Khornate Knights use blood magic or not?

No, I'm just throwing that quote into the mix to see what others make of it.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

I don't understand...are you agreeing with me that the Khornate Knights use blood magic or not?

No, I'm just throwing that quote into the mix to see what others make of it.

Obviously Ward's progeny make use of blood magic, and deserve to have the Wolves loosed on themselves and on Titan.

Is OP's last name Ward?

As a long time Sisters player, a singular character famous for being //the// Sister to fully give herself to Chaos is a cool anomaly that highlights the incorruptability of the Adepta Sororitas. It also puts them more firmly into the grimdark setting that GW has created, while highlighting the difficulties they face as they go about their holy work.

The idea of a Chaos Sisterhood, however, is re-fething-tarded. Lets have our Chaos immolators belch green flame instead of orange, 'cuz that's more Chaos-y, then have our bat-winged canoness get out and hit things with her demon blessed sword while serephim fly overhead inspire them with their "CREEPY CHAOS PRESENCE".

It happened to a sister, once, it was a good 1 shot thing to highlight the Sisters' incorruptability.

/faceplam.

EDIT: Nerd Rage at thread made editing a necessity.

Those are pretty good odds.

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:No, the SW are bred true by the Emperor's own hand.

Well, I'm sure people would have said that about Horus some time ago.
SW have a mutated geneseed causing them to go into mindless rage, and they reportedly commit heretical rituals in their fortress. (I smell Khorne)

Matter of interpretation, tho.

Their space marines. By rights one could argue they are all devoted to khorne

DreadlordME! wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:No, the SW are bred true by the Emperor's own hand.

Well, I'm sure people would have said that about Horus some time ago.
SW have a mutated geneseed causing them to go into mindless rage, and they reportedly commit heretical rituals in their fortress. (I smell Khorne)

Matter of interpretation, tho.

Their space marines. By rights one could argue they are all devoted to khorne

If the Emperor had sided with Magnus at Nikaea, Russ would probably have fallen to Khorne, and the Sons would be burning Fenris as opposed to the Wolves burning Prospero.

I feel dirty having read this thread.

Don't we have, like, a thousand other threads about this... and, maybe, just maybe, a search engine for this kind of thing?

Suffice it to say, no. No "Sisters of Chaos". It's trite, boring, overdone nonsense, and doesn't match the lore.

Melissia wrote:I feel dirty having read this thread.
Don't we have, like, a thousand other threads about this... and, maybe, just maybe, a search engine for this kind of thing?
Suffice it to say, no. No "Sisters of Chaos". It's trite, boring, overdone nonsense, and doesn't match the lore.

Lucky you don't play Tau and have to read all those Chaos Tau threads, which come up 5-10 times as often

Kroothawk wrote:

Melissia wrote:I feel dirty having read this thread.
Don't we have, like, a thousand other threads about this... and, maybe, just maybe, a search engine for this kind of thing?
Suffice it to say, no. No "Sisters of Chaos". It's trite, boring, overdone nonsense, and doesn't match the lore.

Lucky you don't play Tau and have to read all those Chaos Tau threads, which come up 5-10 times as often

Chaos Tau? Is that even possible?

I guess if someone really wanted to experience the titillating thrill of a female-oriented chaos group, I'd suggest devising a wayward Death Cult. I can easily imagine a fair few of them have started off as very faithful to the Emperor, and have shifted to Khorne or Slaanesh through coercion, possession, trickery, or gradual acceptance. Everything I've read about the DCA suggests they tread a fine line.

I imagine not all DCA are female, but so far GW's imagery suggests they're all anorexic death-dealing acrobats dressed in fetish wear.

Tadashi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

The Edicts of Nikaea EXPLICITLY forbid the practice of sorcery. The only reason Librarians still exist is because they were amended by either the Emperor, Malcador, or Guilliman. But sorcery is still forbidden, otherwise there's no point in declaring Chapters and Inquisitiors renegade and extremis diabolus for using daemonhosts and other such 'radical' methods.

Yes, but what's the difference? And what would the Edicts of Nikaea have to do with anything? Inquisitors are above that, and by extension so are the Grey Knights.

Tadashi wrote:Then by that logic, Magnus was right in using sorcery to warn the Emperor of Horus' treachery, since he intended well and the result just turned out badly.

I'm not sure that logic works the way you think it does.

Good intentions + Successful result = good result.

Bad intentions + Successful result = bad result.

Good intentions + Unsuccessful result = ?

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Space Marines and the rest of the Imperium don't use sorcery

Explain the difference to me. And then cite your sources that the GK are also prohibited from dealing with what you describe as sorcery.

The Edicts of Nikaea EXPLICITLY forbid the practice of sorcery. The only reason Librarians still exist is because they were amended by either the Emperor, Malcador, or Guilliman. But sorcery is still forbidden, otherwise there's no point in declaring Chapters and Inquisitiors renegade and extremis diabolus for using daemonhosts and other such 'radical' methods.

Yes, but what's the difference? And what would the Edicts of Nikaea have to do with anything? Inquisitors are above that, and by extension so are the Grey Knights.

If the Edicts don't apply to Inquisitors, then why condemn the use of daemonhosts and daemon weapons and other 'radical' methods?

In brief, the difference between Sorcery and what a Psyker does pertains to the person creating the effect and by what means they go about doing it.

A Psyker is genetically capable of sensing, manipulating and projecting the powers of the Warp into physical reality by force of will alone. Certain somatic gestures or components may enhance these effects, but are not, strictly speaking, required. For the Librarian, or the general Psyker, this is an ability they are born with, and hone throughout their lives by study and practice.

Sorcery is the creation of Warp Effects through practiced ritual, the collection of resonant materials, enacting certain actions according to formula, and the recitation of words, chants or prayers, often in the various languages of the Warp. Creating sorcery in this manner does not require one to be a Psyker in order to conjure the effects, it simply requires being in the right place at the right time with the right materials on hand, and the knowledge of how to enact the ritual. Unlike the Psyker, there is no Sanctioning of a Sorcerer, no way to make what they do any less dangerous or provide any buffer between the Warp and Realspace. Further, Psykers can be tracked genetically, tested for and sensed by other Psykers or technological means that duplicate these effects (such as psy-trackers). Sorcerers, however, have no tell-tale genetic markers or other distinguishing features to reveal the knowledge they possess.

Psienesis wrote:

Sorcery is the creation of Warp Effects through practiced ritual, the collection of resonant materials, enacting certain actions according to formula, and the recitation of words, chants or prayers, often in the various languages of the Warp. Creating sorcery in this manner does not require one to be a Psyker in order to conjure the effects, it simply requires being in the right place at the right time with the right materials on hand, and the knowledge of how to enact the ritual. Unlike the Psyker, there is no Sanctioning of a Sorcerer, no way to make what they do any less dangerous or provide any buffer between the Warp and Realspace. Further, Psykers can be tracked genetically, tested for and sensed by other Psykers or technological means that duplicate these effects (such as psy-trackers). Sorcerers, however, have no tell-tale genetic markers or other distinguishing features to reveal the knowledge they possess.

Does blood magic and the use of daemon weapons and daemonhosts count as sorcery?

Tadashi wrote:If the Edicts don't apply to Inquisitors, then why condemn the use of daemonhosts and daemon weapons and other 'radical' methods?

What, you think a radical Inquisitor is going to condemn himself? There are a myriad of different factions within the Inquisition. Some are puritan, some are radical.

@Psienesis: Do you have a source to hand for that information? I only ask because as I recall, the differences have been blurred by recent background.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If the Edicts don't apply to Inquisitors, then why condemn the use of daemonhosts and daemon weapons and other 'radical' methods?

What, you think a radical Inquisitor is going to condemn himself? There are a myriad of different factions within the Inquisition. Some are puritan, some are radical.

As I recall, Daemonhunters refused to fight alongside daemonhosts or radical Inquisitors. Them 'learning from their enemies' is just making sure they don't make past mistakes again. They didn't and never would use sorcery. But I suppose since Khornate Knights can and do make use of blood magic and daemon weapons, they will fight alongside daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors.

In Daemonifuge, a Sister was possessed by a Slaneeshi daemon in the Convent Prioris on Ophelia VII until Ephrael Stern ripped it out of her.

Asteroth's Daughters who attacked the second expedition were also fallen Sisters from the first expedition.

Chaos Sisters has been done before, usually just using Chaos rules back before they sucked. I started to cobble some models together WAY back when, but I gave up on it pretty quickly. Even head swaps are a major pain with all metal models and bits.

Tadashi wrote:As I recall, Daemonhunters refused to fight alongside daemonhosts or radical Inquisitors. Them 'learning from their enemies' is just making sure they don't make past mistakes again. They didn't and never would use sorcery. But I suppose since Khornate Knights can and do make use of blood magic and daemon weapons, they will fight alongside daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors.

Firstly, you know you are literally the only person on the internet using the ridiculous "khornate knights" name?

Secondly, Grey Knights have fought with radical inquisitors.

Thirdly, what source states they wouldn't use sorcery? What do you think the Aegis is?

pzbw7z wrote:In Daemonifuge, a Sister was possessed by a Slaneeshi daemon in the Convent Prioris on Ophelia VII until Ephrael Stern ripped it out of her.
Asteroth's Daughters who attacked the second expedition were also fallen Sisters from the first expedition.

Yup, as every so often the sources are conflicting as to the frequency with which a Sister falling to Chaos happens.

There's probably some way to weave a complicated theory around all of this to make it fit together, but at the end of the day it's just one of many examples where the writers of outsourced products didn't care much what each other wrote, and I think this has to be kept in mind when discussing topics like this. GW themselves are washing their hands clean - as far as they are concerned, "Chaos Sisters" has never happened in studio material, not even once (Lexicanum simply lies when it claims that Miriael is referenced in the Codex), though they also do not say it couldn't happen.

So it all depends on where you look and which source you want to accept for your own interpretation of the setting.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As I recall, Daemonhunters refused to fight alongside daemonhosts or radical Inquisitors. Them 'learning from their enemies' is just making sure they don't make past mistakes again. They didn't and never would use sorcery. But I suppose since Khornate Knights can and do make use of blood magic and daemon weapons, they will fight alongside daemonhosts and radical Inquisitors.

Firstly, you know you are literally the only person on the internet using the ridiculous "khornate knights" name?

With great pride against Ward's heresies on 40k.

Thirdly, what source states they wouldn't use sorcery? What do you think the Aegis is?

Psychic power.

Lots of people call them Khornate Knights.

Necrosis wrote:Lots of people call them Khornate Knights.

I thought me and Brother Coa were the only ones. He's banned by the way, for trolling and multiple accounts, though that's what he told me over Facebook.

I go to other forums and see it used often there.

Necrosis wrote:I go to other forums and see it used often there.

Its so nice to know that other people prefer the legendary and famed Daemonhunters over the infamous and hated Khornate Knights.

This is a discussion forum about fluff. Please take the roleplay somewhere else. All this talk about "Wardian Heresy" and the "infamous and hated Khornate Knights" doesn't belong here.

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

That's not sorcery...what's sorcerous is how some of them (with a certain Champion coming to mind) make use of daemon weapons. Not to mention using blood magic.

Tadashi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

That's not sorcery.

That's exactly sorcery.

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Kaldor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Psychic power.

Uh, no. It's a series of hexagrammic wards, and other 'sorcerous' protections built into the Grey Knights armour that supplements their psychic defence.

That's not sorcery.

That's exactly sorcery.

No, it's not. It doesn't invoke a third party, does it?

Preview of the next few pages, hope this speedens things up :

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Kroothawk wrote:Preview of the next few pages, hope this speedens things up :

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

Tadashi wrote:No, it isn't.

Kaldor wrote:Yes, it is.

LMAO.

Just no to the quote pyramids...

Sadly it's probably true...

n0t_u wrote:Just no to the quote pyramids...

Sadly it's probably true...

What's true?

That prediction.

Is drawing "hexagramic wards" now science? If so, it is only because daemons are a real phenomenon in 40k. In that case, summoning daemons with blood rituals is also a science.

Manchu wrote:Is drawing "hexagramic wards" now science? If so, it is only because daemons are a real phenomenon in 40k. In that case, summoning daemons with blood rituals is also a science.

Regardless, its still forbidden. If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Which once again comes back to Khornes hatred for Psykers and really the only thing I can see them being called as such is because they covered themselves in SoB blood.

The train of thought to it is about as dumb as the bloodtide story itself.

n0t_u wrote:Which once again comes back to Khornes hatred for Psykers and really the only thing I can see them being called as such is because they covered themselves in SoB blood.

The train of thought to it is about as dumb as the bloodtide story itself.

Pretty much. But seeing as the story behind the Khornate Knights is insane and senseless, the title fits.

Manchu wrote:This is a discussion forum about fluff. Please take the roleplay somewhere else. All this talk about "Wardian Heresy" and the "infamous and hated Khornate Knights" doesn't belong here.

Thank you so much for posting this, and shame on a certain someone for ignoring it.

I dont really care fluffwise if sisters can or cannot fall to chaos. I think its certainly possible, considering groups with far superior mental fortitude like marines and eldar have been known to do so. The only group that might be totally immune are the grey knights. With that said, I think making a sisters of chaos army you have to walk a fine line, just like female marines. If you paint them up in chaos type colors than whatever. If you go out of your way to sculpt extra chaos-y things that have sexual connotations, just like green-stuffing tits on all your marines, it brings into question your sexual frustrations and how you deal with them.

Also, neckbeards will hate you forever for this. I painted my grey knights up in a pink alpha legion/slaanesh scheme. Most people understand its a joke, but be prepared for the grognards to waddle over, call you a heretic, tell you how your army is gay, bitch about matt ward, and tell you that your army is not fluffy. Fortunately, if you have any amount of testicular fortitude and self respect, you understand these kind of people dont qualify as humans, and should be ignored.

Tadashi wrote:If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Once again:

(1) A lot has changed since the HH and the GK were founded as "above the rules" anyway.

(2) If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.


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Eidolon wrote:I dont really care fluffwise if sisters can or cannot fall to chaos.

I think it's very important that they can fall but doon't. The coolest thing about Sisters is that they prove one doesn't have to go through the whole rigmarole of Astartes body-building to be a tough-as-nails, front-line, xenos-murdering, heretic-purging human badass. Saying Sisters can't fall to Chaos is like saying they can't die if shot with a bolter. Saying they don't fall to Chaos, however, is not the same thing as saying they should always win every battle they fight in.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Once again:

(1) A lot has changed since the HH and the GK were founded as "above the rules" anyway.

No, they are not. Only the Emperor is 'above the rules'. Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

(2) If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.

So is the fluff behind the Khornate Knights.

Thus the cycle continues indefinitely?

Tadashi wrote:Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

We don't know when they started to use radical methods but we do know that Malcador gave them an expansive remit that goes well beyond the authority of rank-and-file Space Marines.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.

So is the fluff behind the Khornate Knights.

That is not a counter-argument.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

n0t_u wrote:Thus the cycle continues indefinitely?

This is the internet, after all.

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

We don't know when they started to use radical methods but we do know that Malcador gave them an expansive remit that goes well beyond the authority of rank-and-file Space Marines.

Thanks for proving my point. Khornate Knights are sorcerers and kinslayers worse than the Traitor Legions. They deserve to have Russ and the VI Legion loosed on them more than Magnus and the XV Legion ever did.

Let me guess, you like to say Fineco$t as well? Ugh.

Eidolon wrote:far superior mental fortitude like marines

Just to expand on this, looking at a large number of Marine Chapters, I see a huge amount of pride and arrogance. At time even outright hatred of Astartes versus "inferior humans". The Sisters on the other hand focus heavily on dedication and humility, which in combination with their seemingly unlimited trust in the Emperor's divine infallibility indeed may act like a shield against the influence of the Ruinous Powers. And then there is the difference of education, one being children born of normal people raised from infancy in an ecclesiarchal school, the other being feral barbarians recruited at childhood and subjected to a brutal treatment of genochemical alteration and crude hypno-indoctrination.

No, I am not convinced that Astartes have a "superior mental fortitude". Rather, I think their susceptibility to the lure of Chaos is quite reasonable. They are in essence a bunch of Conans in a constant battle between their self-defined vision of honour and the nagging feeling of not being treated like many of them think they should, especially after Emps told them to shut up about worshipping him.

In a way, the same can be said about Eldar. I am not sure about them truly being that vulnerable these days (I'd have to ask someone with more knowledge of Eldar flufff), but considering how Slaanesh was birthed, it seems to me that the Eldar of old were quite, shall we say, "Roman" about their feasts and monumental parties? High civilization, decadence and corruption are not mutually exclusive. Quite the contrary, one might say. The "modern" Eldar seem to have learned from this and live a much more stable and solemn existence, arguably more resistant.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

Tadashi wrote:If the XV Legion was condemned for it, then so should the Khornate Knights.

Once again:

(1) A lot has changed since the HH and the GK were founded as "above the rules" anyway.

No, they are not. Only the Emperor is 'above the rules'. Grey Knights are still Astartes, and as such are under the Adeptus Terra. Therefore, they are still bound by the strictures against sorcery embodied within the amended Edicts of Nikaea.

Their fething moon is chained to the warp by insane sorceries created by Malcador, the emperors own right hand. I'm pretty sure they are allowed to use sorcery. I understand you have a hate boner for Matt Ward, but lets not get ridiculous here. The emperor banned sorcery for MARINE LEGIONS, which the grey knights never were a part of. They were created to specifically fight chaos, and given a free ride to pretty much use every tool available to do it. He still let the astropaths use sorcery if you read 'The Outcast Dead'. Seriously man, the constant 'herp derp ward ruins everything beautiful' just destroys threads, take this garbage to a site like 40konline where it would be more welcomed.

(2) If the GK are indeed sorcerers, calling them Khorne worshipers is idiotic.

So is the fluff behind the Khornate Knights.

Theres nothing Khornate about just spilling blood. Are surgeons khornate? Is any marine with a chainsword khornate?

How does what I posted prove your point?

Your point is that the GK are traitors against the Imperium. Your evidence is ... that they are sorcerers? But you say that the Thousand Sons were actually loyal even though they were also sorcerers? Take a deep breath and rethink this. Here are the pieces you'll need:

Regarding the Thousand Sons --

(1) Nikaea was aimed directly at Magnus. The Emperor made this explicit in a face-to-face meeting: "do what I say or you are a traitor."

(2) Magnus did not do what the Emperor said.

Regarding the GK --

(1) Malcador, under instructions from the Emperor, gives the GK responsibility to protect humanity from the Ruinous Powers.

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

As you can see, these two situations are actually nothing alike.

Manchu wrote:The coolest thing about Sisters is that they prove one doesn't have to go through the whole rigmarole of Astartes body-building to be a tough-as-nails, front-line, xenos-murdering, heretic-purging human badass.

As an aside, I love this. This is a great summation of why I think the Sisters are so cool, and why they were my first real army in 40K.

Manchu wrote:

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

Lynata wrote:

Eidolon wrote:far superior mental fortitude like marines

Just to expand on this, looking at a large number of Marine Chapters, I see a huge amount of pride and arrogance. At time even outright hatred of Astartes versus "inferior humans". The Sisters on the other hand focus heavily on dedication and humility, which in combination with their seemingly unlimited trust in the Emperor's divine infallibility indeed may act like a shield against the influence of the Ruinous Powers. And then there is the difference of education, one being children born of normal people raised from infancy in an ecclesiarchal school, the other being feral barbarians recruited at childhood and subjected to a brutal treatment of genochemical alteration and crude hypno-indoctrination.

No, I am not convinced that Astartes have a "superior mental fortitude". Rather, I think their susceptibility to the lure of Chaos is quite reasonable. They are in essence a bunch of Conans in a constant battle between their self-defined vision of honour and the nagging feeling of not being treated like many of them think they should, especially after Emps told them to shut up about worshipping him.
.

Sorry, maybe I should have thought that out more. What I mean is that marines are the genetic cream of the crop, you dont become a marine just by being strong, or smart, you have to be exceptionally intelligent, fit, and hard headed. Combine that with the genetic conditioning, decades to centuries of battle, and extremely disciplined life style, and you have beings who are capable of being extremely potent mentally. Far more so than the sisters, who are still basic people genetically and just get along with discipline and badassness. I guess I should say that marines have superior intellectual abilities to regular people, and are far more disciplined. But can still fall, so theres no reason to believe sisters cannot.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

I think there's a difference in degree between safekeeping a Daemon Weapon and using Psychic powers (even if you think it is sorcery) and actually making a deal with Tzeentch and carrying warp entities around with every marine.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

The mandate given directly to Magnus from the Emperor's own mouth while they stood face-to-face was "no more sorcery or you are a traitor." Magnus then proceeded to use some more sorcery.

Also, the definition of radicalism in 40k is using the weapons of the deamons against them. Magnus was not fighting daemons and so could not be meaningfully called a radical.

Tadashi wrote:

Manchu wrote:

(2) The GK eventually use radical methods in pursuit of their mandate.

So did Magnus and the XV Legion.

And they did so with little concern for the consequences, after the emperor told them specifically not to. The grey knights were never told not to, and do so with extreme caution. Grey knights kill sisters? Demons defeated. Magnus uses sorcery after daddy says dont do it? Warp gate project thing FUBAR. Im not sure whats so hard to understand about this.

Also killed thousands to hundreds of thousands of psykers on Terra, making the seat of the Emperor blind for a couple days.

This is pointless. In the end you're just fulfilling Warmaster Horus' fears - the Imperium has degraded into a crumbling empire governed by weaklings and cowards with no regard for those who bleed and die to make and protect that empire, and have no real claim to power. The Imperium is dead. The Emperor is dead. I don't recall swearing loyalty to a corpse on a throne or to a rotting carcass of an empire. My loyalty is to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man. With them dead, my default loyalty is to the Primarch, Magnus the Red, Crimson King of Prospero.

I'm sorry, did I step into the Roleplay forum?

Horus created a self-fulfilling prophecy by listening to chaos.

The Emperor is very much alive and keeping the warp in check.

And you are weird if you're going to respond to all fluff arguments in character. Try taking it to the RP forum.

Eidolon wrote:Sorry, maybe I should have thought that out more. What I mean is that marines are the genetic cream of the crop, you dont become a marine just by being strong, or smart, you have to be exceptionally intelligent, fit, and hard headed. Combine that with the genetic conditioning, decades to centuries of battle, and extremely disciplined life style, and you have beings who are capable of being extremely potent mentally. Far more so than the sisters, who are still basic people genetically and just get along with discipline and badassness. I guess I should say that marines have superior intellectual abilities to regular people, and are far more disciplined. But can still fall, so theres no reason to believe sisters cannot.

Personally, I don't buy the "exceptionally intelligent" bit - not with the Marines recruiting from barbarian stock. Genetic enhancement may serve to bring them up to par with human standards, but if they were so superior I see absolutely no evidence of this in the fluff, perhaps with the sole exception of the Primarchs. Human commanders are capable of the same or better strategic brilliance, and I certainly don't know of any Marine having invented something impressive - although I admit they likely lack the time to prove their supposed intelligence this way. This, too, is an important aspect: The Emperor didn't want His Marines being geniuses, anyways, He wanted them to be capable warriors, so He focused on that. And whilst dragging real life science into a topic like this is a bit dumb, I would add that the age of ~10 seems somewhat late to start improving the development of a child recruit's brain.

No, what I see instead is rampant geneseed mutation that in some cases results in entire companies of Astartes reverting to the status of feral animals (see the Gaius Point massacre on Armageddon).

Lastly though, I'm not even convinced that intelligence has anything to do with resistance to Chaos. The Eldar have proven this. What makes people resistant to Chaos is altruism and faith, and none have as much unconditional faith as the Sisters of Battle.

Do I think that Sisters of Battle cannot be corrupted? No, personally I like Miriael's story. But in my interpretation, it's pretty damn difficult, simply because the Sisters commit their entire life to a higher ideal, and the Ruinous Powers have little to lure them with. Marines, on the other hand? "Hey, Brother X, want some more glory for your Chapter?" "Hey, Sergeant Y, these puny humans don't appreciate your true value", "Hey, Chapter Master Z, your Emperor hates you, you should hate him right back!"

I rarely make references to Black Library novels as I regard studio material in higher opinion, but Ben Counter's Daemonifuge deals with this particular subject, and even years ago as I had first read it, it made sense to me:

Daemonblood wrote:"What curiously small creatures you are to present such a thorn in my side." The words roared and rumbled through the air, thick with dark amusement. "What little bundles of ignorant flesh. I am Parmenides, called the Vile, chosen Prince of Nurgle. I am the virus which the Plague God sends to infect your mortal worlds. I am the festering in your wounded empire. Do creatures as insignificant as yourselves have names, too, I wonder?"
"Sergeant Castus of the Ultramarines, Second Company", the Marine replied in a defiant voice, as if he were trying to impress the daemon prince.
The horrific gaze turned to Aescarion, questioning.
"I would not give you my name, though it cost my soul", the Battle Sister snarled, and she gripped her axe tighter.
"Such a shame", Parmenides replied. "But the girl I can understand. Her mind is most infertile. What has she ever questioned? They teach her and she believes."

pretre wrote:I'm sorry, did I step into the Roleplay forum?

Horus created a self-fulfilling prophecy by listening to chaos.

The Emperor is very much alive and keeping the warp in check.

And you are weird if you're going to respond to all fluff arguments in character. Try taking it to the RP forum.

No, He's dead. Horus killed Him. He lived long enough to tell the survivors to carry on the fight against Mankind's enemies and to uphold the Imperial Truth, which they never did, and the Imperium ended up being governed by its own greatest enemies - bureaucrats with no real power. The Emperor is dead, and the Imperium is as good as dead with no future.

very well sir. I swear loyalty to Fulgrim, for being a baller primarch, the only way to settle this is with fisticuffs.

Tadashi wrote:No, He's dead. Horus killed Him. He lived long enough to tell the survivors to carry on the fight against Mankind's enemies and to uphold the Imperial Truth, which they never did, and the Imperium ended up being governed by its own greatest enemies - bureaucrats with no real power. The Emperor is dead, and the Imperium is as good as dead with no future.

Umm. No.

Page IX of the 6th Edition Rulebook (i.e. the first real page)

"Kept alive by unfathomable technology and supreme will, the Emperor's psychic powers protect mankind..."

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, He's dead. Horus killed Him. He lived long enough to tell the survivors to carry on the fight against Mankind's enemies and to uphold the Imperial Truth, which they never did, and the Imperium ended up being governed by its own greatest enemies - bureaucrats with no real power. The Emperor is dead, and the Imperium is as good as dead with no future.

Umm. No.

Page IX of the 6th Edition Rulebook (i.e. the first real page)

"Kept alive by unfathomable technology and supreme will, the Emperor's psychic powers protect mankind..."

Thats just Matt Ward ruining the fluff. The emperor is really a nurgle demon prince because hes like gross....and stuff.

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, He's dead. Horus killed Him. He lived long enough to tell the survivors to carry on the fight against Mankind's enemies and to uphold the Imperial Truth, which they never did, and the Imperium ended up being governed by its own greatest enemies - bureaucrats with no real power. The Emperor is dead, and the Imperium is as good as dead with no future.

Umm. No.

Page IX of the 6th Edition Rulebook (i.e. the first real page)

"Kept alive by unfathomable technology and supreme will, the Emperor's psychic powers protect mankind..."

Administratum and Inquisition propaganda...last I looked, the Imperium stood for truth and enlightenment, not superstition and oppression.

Tadashi wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, He's dead. Horus killed Him. He lived long enough to tell the survivors to carry on the fight against Mankind's enemies and to uphold the Imperial Truth, which they never did, and the Imperium ended up being governed by its own greatest enemies - bureaucrats with no real power. The Emperor is dead, and the Imperium is as good as dead with no future.

Umm. No.

Page IX of the 6th Edition Rulebook (i.e. the first real page)

"Kept alive by unfathomable technology and supreme will, the Emperor's psychic powers protect mankind..."

Administratum and Inquisition propaganda...last I looked, the Imperium stood for truth and enlightenment, not superstition and oppression.

No, it is the rulebook. If you can't answer without trying to roleplay, I'm just going to hit the nice ignore button and leave it at that.

Tadashi wrote:I don't recall swearing loyalty to a corpse on a throne or to a rotting carcass of an empire. My loyalty is to the Emperor and the Imperium of Man. With them dead, my default loyalty is to the Primarch, Magnus the Red, Crimson King of Prospero.

Take the roleplay somewhere else, Tadashi. No more warnings.

Well, the intent is different, and the result is different?

Are you new to 40K?

Well one the results were the same "give blood get power" plain and simple

Intent does not matter the act you do dose.

Hitlers intent was to make Gremany perfect look what he did.

The Churches intent was to free Jerusalem look what they did

The US wanted better land for the people to grow and prosper look what they did the the natives.

Your intents may be good BUT its the acts you do for your intentions that defines you.

P.S. been playing 40k from 1998

Yay! We had been Draigo'd earlier in the thread, but does that count as getting Godwin'd as well?

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:No, He's dead. Horus killed Him. He lived long enough to tell the survivors to carry on the fight against Mankind's enemies and to uphold the Imperial Truth, which they never did, and the Imperium ended up being governed by its own greatest enemies - bureaucrats with no real power. The Emperor is dead, and the Imperium is as good as dead with no future.

Umm. No.

Page IX of the 6th Edition Rulebook (i.e. the first real page)

"Kept alive by unfathomable technology and supreme will, the Emperor's psychic powers protect mankind..."

Administratum and Inquisition propaganda...last I looked, the Imperium stood for truth and enlightenment, not superstition and oppression.

No, it is the rulebook. If you can't answer without trying to roleplay, I'm just going to hit the nice ignore button and leave it at that.

As you wish, no more roleplay. As I recall, the Chaos Codex mentions the Emperor being dead, and that His soul had already left the material realm.

EDIT: "...his great intellect and psychic might had passed on from the material realm."
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, p.15

He's dead.

This has to happen to every sisters thread doesn't it?

It's always either this or misogyny.

n0t_u wrote:This has to happen to every sisters thread doesn't it?

It's always either this or misogyny.

What about roleplaying misogyny?

Tadashi wrote:As you wish, no more roleplay. As I recall, the Chaos Codex mentions the Emperor being dead, and that His soul had already left the material realm.

I mean, come on. Page four of the Chaos Codex has their primary battle cry 'Death to the false emperor!'

Why would they wish death on a dead guy?

I didn't see anything about the Emperor being dead when I just looked.

Citation needed. Give us a page number.

Eidolon wrote:

n0t_u wrote:This has to happen to every sisters thread doesn't it?

It's always either this or misogyny.

What about roleplaying misogyny?

I may be a roleplayer, but I AM NOT A MISOGYNIST.

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:As you wish, no more roleplay. As I recall, the Chaos Codex mentions the Emperor being dead, and that His soul had already left the material realm.

I mean, come on. Page four of the Chaos Codex has their primary battle cry 'Death to the false emperor!'

Why would they wish death on a dead guy?

I didn't see anything about the Emperor being dead when I just looked.

Citation needed. Give us a page number.

Read the edit, if you please.

Tadashi wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

n0t_u wrote:This has to happen to every sisters thread doesn't it?

It's always either this or misogyny.

What about roleplaying misogyny?

I may be a roleplayer, but I AM NOT A MISOGYNIST.

I roleplay misogyny all the time. Its in a game called...life. badumtish

Tadashi wrote:EDIT: "...his great intellect and psychic might had passed on from the material realm."
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, p.15

He's dead.

Way to quote only the part that supports your argument.

That paragraph explicitly says that he is still alive but that his intellect and psychic might are not in the material realm.

Eidolon wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Eidolon wrote:

n0t_u wrote:This has to happen to every sisters thread doesn't it?

It's always either this or misogyny.

What about roleplaying misogyny?

I may be a roleplayer, but I AM NOT A MISOGYNIST.

I roleplay misogyny all the time. Its in a game called...life. badumtish

So, you look dislike/mistrust/hate women or girls?

Page 17, Chaos refers to the memories of the Emperor in the present tense.

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:EDIT: "...his great intellect and psychic might had passed on from the material realm."
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, p.15

He's dead.

Way to quote only the part that supports your argument.

That paragraph explicitly says that he is still alive but that his intellect and psychic might are not in the material realm.

I doubt they ever really were. I mean, someone that psychic is going to have a permanent warp presence, as do demons and did magnus, who werent nearly as powerful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tadashi wrote:

So, you look dislike/mistrust/hate women or girls?

It was uh, it was just a joke. I love or hate women depending on who they are.

pretre wrote:

Tadashi wrote:EDIT: "...his great intellect and psychic might had passed on from the material realm."
- Codex: Chaos Space Marines 4th Edition, p.15

He's dead.

Way to quote only the part that supports your argument.

That paragraph explicitly says that he is still alive but that his intellect and psychic might are not in the material realm.

Passed on equals death. 'False-Emperor' is because the Emperor is just a mindless corpse. Its operating on pure instinct, focusing the Astronomican, soul-binding Astropaths through the mechanisms of the Golden Throne that is fed by thousands of sacrificial psykers. The man whose vision once drove a great empire is no more.

Not according to more numerous and recent sources than the Chaos Codex. Sorry, but the references indicate he is still alive, body shattered and very much in control of the fight against the warp.

Tadashi wrote:Passed on equals death. 'False-Emperor' is because the Emperor is just a mindless corpse. Its operating on pure instinct, focusing the Astronomican, soul-binding Astropaths through the mechanisms of the Golden Throne that is fed by thousands of sacrificial psykers. The man whose vision once drove a great empire is no more.

Isn't that still more like a sort of "half-death", still?

Perhaps you could say braindead, though that is not entirely accurate either given that his brain still seems to work on some level as it focuses the Astronomicon. His body is more like a shell, but there is still a connection of sorts, and he is still strapped to the machines keeping him sorta alive, at least as far as the body goes.

The Emperor dying for real is the premier fear of the end of the 41st millennium, as far as the 6E rulebook is concerned, as both his presence as well as the Golden Throne seem to become weaker.

No one knows that one way or the other. CSM certainly believe it (otherwise the HH was a really big disappointment for them) but that doesn't make it a fact.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Passed on equals death. 'False-Emperor' is because the Emperor is just a mindless corpse. Its operating on pure instinct, focusing the Astronomican, soul-binding Astropaths through the mechanisms of the Golden Throne that is fed by thousands of sacrificial psykers. The man whose vision once drove a great empire is no more.

Isn't that still more like a sort of "half-death", still?

Perhaps you could say braindead, though that is not entirely accurate either given that his brain still seems to work on some level as it focuses the Astronomicon. His body is more like a shell, but there is still a connection of sorts, and he is still strapped to the machines keeping him sorta alive, at least as far as the body goes.

The Emperor dying for real is the premier fear of the end of the 41st millennium, as far as the 6E rulebook is concerned, as both his presence as well as the Golden Throne seem to become weaker.

Won't that make him 'clinically dead' in the real world?

Using clinically dead to refer to someone with known psychic powers kinda defeats the purpose of using real world terms.

Tadashi wrote:

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Passed on equals death. 'False-Emperor' is because the Emperor is just a mindless corpse. Its operating on pure instinct, focusing the Astronomican, soul-binding Astropaths through the mechanisms of the Golden Throne that is fed by thousands of sacrificial psykers. The man whose vision once drove a great empire is no more.

Isn't that still more like a sort of "half-death", still?

Perhaps you could say braindead, though that is not entirely accurate either given that his brain still seems to work on some level as it focuses the Astronomicon. His body is more like a shell, but there is still a connection of sorts, and he is still strapped to the machines keeping him sorta alive, at least as far as the body goes.

The Emperor dying for real is the premier fear of the end of the 41st millennium, as far as the 6E rulebook is concerned, as both his presence as well as the Golden Throne seem to become weaker.

Won't that make him 'clinically dead' in the real world?

Real world arguments don't hold water when discussing 40K.

Half-dead isn't exactly a real term either.

Right, so don't bring real terms into it. In the fluff, he is still alive and is using his psychic might.

pretre wrote:Right, so don't bring real terms into it. In the fluff, he is still alive and is using his psychic might.

Does being a mummified skeleton count as alive? There's a term for that: I must scream...

If the mummified skeleton still is alive and can keep back the forces of chaos, yes.

One of the central tenets of several radical factions is that if we could kill him, he would be reborn. That the half-dead state he is kept in prevents him from achieving his full power.

Tadashi wrote:Won't that make him 'clinically dead' in the real world?

He'd be clinically dead if they shut off the machines, like with braindead people. The death certificate is only issued when they no longer have a pulse, afaik.

This also ties in with the big conspiracy in the opening of GW's Inquisitor RPG, by the way - where some Inquisitors talk about doing just that, shutting down the Golden Throne, in order to allow the Emperor to be reborn. For to be reborn, he first needs to die for reals. As long as his body "draws breath", the Emperor's essence is still tied to his broken shell and cannot resurrect.

Anyone seen the Sororitas thread?

Which one this time?

edit: Oh, now I get it. This was never a SoB thread. It was just an accident waiting to happen.

We've been circling around it. I think SoB threads get like this because the SoB themselves represent a lot of controversial points:

- Space Marines aren't so special (including GK)
- the Emperor guides and protects humanity
- faith in the Emperor protects against the daemonic rather than promoting the daemonic

etc

Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

Manchu wrote:Well, there's also the old whisper-to-possesion deal. Fulgrim's fall was much better handled than Horus's and Fulgrim was only willing up to a point. Too bad for him that he didn't have the power to resist possession at that point.

Hey enough about fulgrim, what about Peturablo?

What about Perturabo?

pretre wrote:If the mummified skeleton still is alive and can keep back the forces of chaos, yes.

One of the central tenets of several radical factions is that if we could kill him, he would be reborn. That the half-dead state he is kept in prevents him from achieving his full power.

Do you have proof that he will reborn/resurrected/restored? On the contrary, we have all the proof I need that he's already clinically dead. We just pull the plug on the Throne, and his mummified and mindless body will finally die.

Tadashi wrote:On the contrary, we have all the proof I need that he's already clinically dead. We just pull the plug on the Throne, and his mummified and mindless body will finally die.

As long as you need to pull a plug to "make him die", he's not dead yet, though, is he?

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clinical+death

I think his condition is quite similar to a very, very, very long coma. His body is unable to sustain itself without machinery, but his mind is still ... somewhere.

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

That and their fabulous hair!

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

pzbw7z wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

That and their fabulous hair!

As well as love for burning people and ugh... things.

Though to be honest I'm surprised no one has photoshoped a fluff friendlier allies chart to replace this monstrosity.

Tadashi wrote:And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

I could see the Church trying to denounce Him for being a fake or something.

On that note, however, it is interesting that He still seems to be actively aware of the Sororitas existence. Assuming this wasn't all some scheme by the Custodes, He did talk to Saint Dominica and her companions, prompting them to execute Vandire.

Yori wrote:Though to be honest I'm surprised no one has photoshoped a fluff friendlier allies chart to replace this monstrosity.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461162.page
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/461316.page

I stand corrected , thx for showing me these.

Tadashi wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

Assuming the Emperor thinks that 41M is somehow an identical reality to M31, which I doubt, greatly. The God-Emperor seems quite aware of what's going on in the modern era, and he's a very pragmatic individual. If you can't get rid of religion, you might as well have yourself as the center of it.

Psienesis wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Psienesis wrote:Fair points, but I believe that is what sets the SOB apart from any other faction. They accomplish everything they are and do through faith in the God-Emperor, indicating that their faith is not misplaced, and that the claims of the Traitor Legions are erroneous, at best.

And yet their existence (and that of the Ecclesiarchy) contradicts the Emperor's dreams and ideals. Of he ever gets reborn (which I doubt), he'll be very angry. Looks like a repeat of Monarchia, except this time it'll be on the Convents and Palaces of the Sisters and Ecclesiarchy respectively.

Assuming the Emperor thinks that 41M is somehow an identical reality to M31, which I doubt, greatly. The God-Emperor seems quite aware of what's going on in the modern era, and he's a very pragmatic individual. If you can't get rid of religion, you might as well have yourself as the center of it.

Are we even sure he's awake? For all we know, when those Sisters who were brought into the throne room in M36 could have just seen, well, a corpse on a throne, and just came to their senses seeing the Emperor's corpse, seeking to emulate the Emperor's sacrifice rather than because they were told something. Last I looked, corpses don't talk.

Tadashi wrote:For all we know, when those Sisters who were brought into the throne room in M36 could have just seen, well, a corpse on a throne, and just came to their senses seeing the Emperor's corpse, seeking to emulate the Emperor's sacrifice rather than because they were told something.

Huh? I don't get what you are aiming at here. "Emulating the Emperor's sacrifice" with what? The Sisters have been emulating His sacrifice with their castigation rituals ever since they came into being. And obviously whatever they saw did not shatter their faith either, considering their continued service. The only thing we know for sure is that they came back with grim determination and murderous hate in their eyes, all directed at the man who had betrayed them.

I could imagine an elaborate scheme pulled by the Custodes, using a machine to fake His voice, but that is a pretty far-fetched theory based entirely on the idea that the Emperor is nothing more but a mummy, unable to influence anything anymore and not even needed for the Astronomicon (which would be generated purely by psykers being fed to the machine, with the Emperor's corpse being nothing but decoration). And that it is the Custodes who are the real power behind the Golden Throne.
Which would make for a cool plot, but also invalidate a lot of other stuff.

I could as well say "actually, there are no Chaos Gods - it's just a fake pulled by an omnipotent God-Emperor to plunge the galaxy into an Eternal War as a crucible for Mankind, and the apparent death of His body was all part of the plan". Same level of theorycraft.

Tadashi wrote:Last I looked, corpses don't talk.

Last I looked, corpses don't bond with psykers either.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:For all we know, when those Sisters who were brought into the throne room in M36 could have just seen, well, a corpse on a throne, and just came to their senses seeing the Emperor's corpse, seeking to emulate the Emperor's sacrifice rather than because they were told something.

Huh? I don't get what you are aiming at here. "Emulating the Emperor's sacrifice" with what? The Sisters have been emulating His sacrifice with their castigation rituals ever since they came into being. And obviously whatever they saw did not shatter their faith either, considering their continued service. The only thing we know for sure is that they came back with grim determination and murderous hate in their eyes, all directed at the man who had betrayed them.

Tadashi wrote:Or they just realized how fethed being the brides of a corpse was, and being his daughters to serve and protect the people as opposed to being the bodyguards and attendants (among other things) of a madman was the right thing to do.

That ... doesn't really make sense.

Apart from this supposed realization that the Emperor is actually a dead, unmoving corpse shattering their faith and taking away their raison d'etre (why fight at all if He doesn't really exist?), it would have no meaning whatsoever for their relationship to Vandire. Why should they see him as a traitor now? That explanation only works if they would have dropped their faith there and then (feeling betrayed by religion to a corpse) and suddenly became secular, which obviously wasn't the case.

Furthermore, the Sisters didn't revert to the "Daughters" moniker because it was more fitting but because this was their original name, and it was solely due to Vandire that they accepted becoming "Brides" in the first place. By changing back to their first name they were essentially drawing a line behind this whole unlucky era of their existence.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Or they just realized how fethed being the brides of a corpse was, and being his daughters to serve and protect the people as opposed to being the bodyguards and attendants (among other things) of a madman was the right thing to do.

That ... doesn't really make sense.

Apart from this supposed realization that the Emperor is actually a dead, unmoving corpse shattering their faith and taking away their raison d'etre (why fight at all if He doesn't really exist?), it would have no meaning whatsoever for their relationship to Vandire. Why should they see him as a traitor now? That explanation only works if they would have dropped their faith there and then (feeling betrayed by religion to a corpse) and suddenly became secular, which obviously wasn't the case.

They probably realized that keeping the truth to themselves was better for the Imperium as a whole, which is ironic since the Emperor's truth was purely secular. Or the Custodes made a deal with them, as you yourself stated.

Tadashi wrote:They probably realized that keeping the truth to themselves was better for the Imperium as a whole

That might have been a possibility were it not for the fact that these Founding Saints continued to be rather faithful and went on to establish entire Orders of Sisters in the Emperor's name.

Not exactly what you'd expect from a person who just went through a major crisis of faith.

Tadashi wrote:Or the Custodes made a deal with them, as you yourself stated.

No deal, they would have to fool them.
And like I said, whilst that is a theory that would work, it's on the same level as claiming that all four Chaos Gods are just a mask of the Emperor playing His great game.
Which would make an awesome narrative, tho.

Lynata wrote:

Tadashi wrote:They probably realized that keeping the truth to themselves was better for the Imperium as a whole

That might have been a possibility were it not for the fact that these Founding Saints continued to be rather faithful and went on to establish entire Orders of Sisters in the Emperor's name.

Not exactly what you'd expect from a person who just went through a major crisis of faith.

Or, they came to believe in his divinity, having transcended his mortal form, not realizing he's dead. And that everything they do would have made him very angry. He ordered Monarchia burned to the ground simply because they worshipped him, while Magnus and the Sons were simply supposed to be taken back to Terra for wrecking the Imperial Webway.

Which would make an awesome narrative, tho.

Lol...

Unit of Sisters within 12 inches of Skarbrand.

There.

Chaos sisters.

BTW I now have to draw a picture of Chaos Sisters for my gallery.

Edited for spelling.

Tadashi wrote:Are we even sure he's awake?

Codex: Daemons almost out right says he is, that his constant actions are the only reason that the daemons of chaos haven't taken over the galaxy yet.


His body may not be awake, but His mind certainly is still active.

Tadashi wrote:Or, they came to believe in his divinity, having transcended his mortal form, not realizing he's dead. And that everything they do would have made him very angry.

So just by looking at a corpse they suddenly realize Vandire's corruption when they were 100% believing in him before? I don't think this theory holds much potential.

Tadashi wrote:He ordered Monarchia burned to the ground simply because they worshipped him, while Magnus and the Sons were simply supposed to be taken back to Terra for wrecking the Imperial Webway.

Are you implying that the Sisters realized that the Emperor didn't want them to worship Him, so they killed Vandire for excessive worship, then returned to worshipping Him even more?

I do quite like the idea that the worship of the Emperor has created a dark twin in the warp that is now the actuality of the Emperor they believe in as a actual God

and He is able to grant his followers rewards and protection.

That's possible, too, or that the two have become one, the first being the psychic mind of the mortal Emperor, the other being the gestalt Warp God birthed by uncounted trillions of humans believing in him. The two fused, because psychic-brain-guy said "You know, I'd be an idiot not to make use of that", and Man-Created-God-Emperor was there and already believed to be an aspect or part of this psychic mind-form.

Mr Morden wrote:I do quite like the idea that the worship of the Emperor has created a dark twin in the warp that is now the actuality of the Emperor they believe in as a actual God

and He is able to grant his followers rewards and protection.

You know -- that kind of implies that the Golden Throne doesn't actually do what they think it does. Which would be funny and cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Psienesis wrote:That's possible, too, or that the two have become one, the first being the psychic mind of the mortal Emperor, the other being the gestalt Warp God birthed by uncounted trillions of humans believing in him. The two fused, because psychic-brain-guy said "You know, I'd be an idiot not to make use of that", and Man-Created-God-Emperor was there and already believed to be an aspect or part of this psychic mind-form.

I love that. That's is incredibly interesting and it actually explains a lot about why the Emperor behaved as he did during the Great Crusade and during the HH.

Psienesis wrote:That's possible, too, or that the two have become one, the first being the psychic mind of the mortal Emperor, the other being the gestalt Warp God birthed by uncounted trillions of humans believing in him. The two fused, because psychic-brain-guy said "You know, I'd be an idiot not to make use of that", and Man-Created-God-Emperor was there and already believed to be an aspect or part of this psychic mind-form.

Wicked.

And it'd totally be possible, given what we heard about the warp so far.

It fits nicely with some of the things I have been suspecting:

- The Emperor knew mankind could only survive through dominance, of real space and the warp

- He created the Primarchs by striking a deal with Chaos

- the point of the Primarchs was two-fold: (1) to re-conquer the former Terran and Martian Empires; (2) to distract the Chaos Gods

- regarding (2) above, the Emperor foresaw that there would be an event like the Horus Heresy; whether he foresaw the exact details is immaterial

- this, too, was part of his plan: the Four would busy themselves with attempting to corrupt the Primarchs

- the point of the Great Crusade was to destroy all belief systems other than the "Imperial Truth" so that every human would be in a position to believe the same thing or at least a similar thing

- the Chaos Gods had knowledge of the outcome of the Emperor's plans, if not the specifics and showed Horus -- namely, a scene of the Ecclesiarchy

- enraged, Horus turns against the Emperor, just as the Emperor had planned

- the resulting crisis creates the proper environment for the emergence of faith in the Emperor; thanks to the Great Crusade, humanity has nothing else to believe in

- that faith allows the Emperor to have a "double" in the Warp, a Warp God that he is personally tied to

- as a Warp God himself, so to speak, the Emperor would be in a position to lead humanity in dominance of the Warp and real space ... which is, in a very flawed way, what has happened

I still see the problem being that "belief" does not "create" Chaos Gods.

Manchu wrote:I still see the problem being that "belief" does not "create" Chaos Gods.

Well, religion is tightly connected to emotion - and that creates warp entities, as we know from Slaanesh.

Would also fit my theory on the Living Saints, by the way.

Lynata wrote:Well, religion is tightly connected to emotion - and that creates warp entities, as we know from Slaanesh.

I'll pass over the word "create" there, as I have spent so much time trying to add nuance to how people use that word with regard to Slaanesh over the last few weeks and know you must have read at least some of it by now. Moving on, maybe this explains why the Emperor allowed Lorgar to spread his weird ideas up to a point. He basically needed someone to write Lectitio Divinitatus. But he didn't want a church built out of it as a rational matter. I personally am religious and I don't perceive my belief in God as an emotional but rather a rational matter. Now, if I had converted to Catholicism because of some emotional need created by trauma, that might be different. The Emperor wanted his converts to be faithful for emotional reasons and his whole faith to be an emotional one.

Making more and more sense.

Lynata wrote:Would also fit my theory on the Living Saints, by the way.

I don't remember your theory exactly. Did you mean that a Living Saint is someone who is a real space person and at the same time some kind of Warp entity or tied to a Warp entity? Like a ... for lack of a better term, "reverse daemon prince"?

Manchu wrote:I don't remember your theory exactly. Did you mean that a Living Saint is someone who is a real space person and at the same time some kind of Warp entity or tied to a Warp entity? Like a ... for lack of a better term, "reverse daemon prince"?

Basically, yeah!

The emotions of a large mass of people, all united in both terror and faith, praying to the Emperor for deliverance - this immense outburst, this vortex of hope, despair and hate would grow until it is strong enough to be given form within the twisting nethers of the warp, especially in crisis zones where the veil has already been weakened. This newborn entity, driven by the need to protect and avenge, would descend upon the battlefield, a shapeless existence summoned to the focal point of this wreathing mass of pained human bodies, where it would seek out and possess one of the most faithful, someone most suited to act as a conduit to draw this thought-being into realspace. Upon that moment, this individual will be filled by holy hatred and a purpose magnified by the local masses, tapping an invisible connection to the warp to exert their newfound power.
Yet even as this avenging angel begins her terrible harvest upon the enemies of Mankind, the despair and terror of the masses slowly give way to satisfaction, then indifference. Finally, separated from its home plane and sapped of power, the Living Saint will slowly burn out until, leaving the host body a wrecked shell unable to persist on its own.

As for religion/emotion - I don't think you need some sort of trauma, actually. It may well be within the human nature to want to believe in something greater than us, regardless of whether this something is an organisation, a cause, or a divine entity. It's what has spurred our civilization onward ever since. In a way, I think you could say we all have faith - in something. And desire is an emotion, I believe.

First off, I find your theory (1) convincing and (2) compelling.

Lynata wrote:And desire is an emotion, I believe.

But I don't think IRL faith necessarily proceeds from desire. I think it can and does (in some cases, perhaps less now than in early epochs) proceed from rationality.

Manchu wrote:But I don't think IRL faith necessarily proceeds from desire. I think it can and does (in some cases, perhaps less now than in early epochs) proceed from rationality.

At the risk of stepping onto a minefield - rationality, because faith (also) aims to explain that which is (as of yet) unexplainable? Isn't that a desire as well?

Lynata wrote:At the risk of stepping onto a minefield - rationality, because faith (also) aims to explain that which is (as of yet) unexplainable? Isn't that a desire as well?

I suppose for that to be true, one would have to think of God as inexplicable. I don't want to get too off-topic here so I will PM you something on this instead.

This line of thought begs the question: Does having faith in the Chaos gods make them stronger or just being violent/hedonistic etc. etc.

In short does chaos actually need people on its side or just people whipped up into a frenzy?

If that latter this would suggest chaos sisters wouldn't have faith just extreme emotional states to feed their gods. Maybe army wide rage or some sort of frenzy ability instead of army wide shield of faith.

Kris Knives wrote:In short does chaos actually need people on its side or just people whipped up into a frenzy?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/461832.page#4520170

Manchu wrote:

Kris Knives wrote:In short does chaos actually need people on its side or just people whipped up into a frenzy?

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/461832.page#4520170

Yes even if you subscribe to the idea the the warp resonates with emotion and thought not believe is plausible that a chaos god or any warp entity might gain benefits from belief, emotion and thought directed at them specifically rather then just being sucked up into the warp aimlessly.

Edit: I personally prefer though to assume it does not since I agree with those who says Chaos sister just having anti-faith or chaos-faith is kind of weak and detracts from the actual Sisters of Battle.

Well, that is what we were talking about right before you posted here ...

I know, I was just trying to join the conversation.

Ok, well, if you want Chaos Sisters, then yeah, I guess they act a lot like Word Bearers.

Based on some of the current Chaos fluff, it's action and emotion, not belief or faith, that powers the Chaos Gods. This is why Khorne is the current Top Dog amongst the Great Powers, because the galaxy is a fething violent place, and there's massive wars going on all over the place, even if his forces are not directly involved. As the God of Carnage, Bloodshed and Slaughter, when people are killing and dying, he's feeding off of that, regardless of whether or not people are on that battlefield screaming "Blood for the Blood God!".

This also explains how Slaanesh came to be. The Pre-Fall Eldar weren't worshiping the Prince, they weren't even really aware of its possible, potential existence, they were just *that* hedonistic, and apparently got into some *really* weird kinks, and created a Chaos God out of nothing.

Psienesis wrote:Based on some of the current Chaos fluff, it's action and emotion, not belief or faith, that powers the Chaos Gods. This is why Khorne is the current Top Dog amongst the Great Powers, because the galaxy is a fething violent place, and there's massive wars going on all over the place, even if his forces are not directly involved. As the God of Carnage, Bloodshed and Slaughter, when people are killing and dying, he's feeding off of that, regardless of whether or not people are on that battlefield screaming "Blood for the Blood God!".

This also explains how Slaanesh came to be. The Pre-Fall Eldar weren't worshiping the Prince, they weren't even really aware of its possible, potential existence, they were just *that* hedonistic, and apparently got into some *really* weird kinks, and created a Chaos God out of nothing.

I agree that is how it is written but then you would think Slaanesh would be open drug dens, brothels and starting reality TV shows instead of sending demon princes to destroy worlds. How does that help the cause of hedonism which Slaanesh embodies?

Slaanesh doesn't always send armies. He's content to slither through the courts of decadent imperial nobles as well as the lower level red light districts of the hives.

Kris Knives wrote:I agree that is how it is written but then you would think Slaanesh would be open drug dens, brothels and starting reality TV shows instead of sending demon princes to destroy worlds. How does that help the cause of hedonism which Slaanesh embodies?

Death and pain are just other experiences to be enjoyed, whether it's yours or someone else's.

Really interesting stuff about the emperor's possible motives here guys, keep going!

Lynata wrote:

Manchu wrote:I still see the problem being that "belief" does not "create" Chaos Gods.

Well, religion is tightly connected to emotion - and that creates warp entities, as we know from Slaanesh.
)

Boinking for kicks and beating Tetris created Slaanesh

Psienesis wrote:This also explains how Slaanesh came to be. The Pre-Fall Eldar weren't worshiping the Prince, they weren't even really aware of its possible, potential existence, they were just *that* hedonistic, and apparently got into some *really* weird kinks, and created a Chaos God out of nothing.

This is my whole problem with this living and warp Emperor idea. Now, I understand what is being said and yeah, I guess it's plausible. But my argument against this is that the worship is aimed at being which already exists and that already has a presence in the warp, regardless of whether they call him the Emperor or God Emperor, it's all directed to the same Emperor. Religions all over the Imperium have their own different Interpretation of the Emperor, but these don't lead to other Emperors being formed in the warp as they are all effectively the same guy. Well, at least I don't believe there are.Having a Legion of Warp God Emperors, one that throws lightning, one that has four legs etc etc, would be quite the nightmare for chaos.

The problem with the theory as stated is the concept of worship. It's not worship that would inform the Warp entity known as the God-Emperor. Rather it is the cluster of emotional experiences of desperately needing a savior and identifying the real space being known as the Emperor as that savior.

Mind you, this bit of theory-craft is different from the one that has its own thread. I'm positing the idea that there is a sort of "Warp Host" created for the psychic mind of the God-Emperor by Humanity's collective belief in him that, post-ascension, the God-Emperor, the mortal (more accurately, the psychic mind of the mortal) has made use of/taken control of/merged with/whatever you want to call it.

We already know that exposing one's mind to the psychic might of the Emperor can cause blindness, baldness, all sorts of other things from the Sanctioning rites, as well as he consumes a thousand psykers a day to keep the Astronomican lit, there's definitely something going on there with him absorbing psychic power. Now, when you've got a dimension that is all entirely based on emotion and belief and so on, and you roll in there as your psychic mind-form, and you find that someone has been kind enough to set up a pre-furnished flat with your name on the door, why wouldn't you immediately take up residence, as long as someone else keeps paying the rent?

Of course, some daemons are going to want in on this, and in some scattered areas, in real-space, you find variations on the Creed becoming so debased or so manipulated that the locals are actually worshiping some daemon or another, and so they're getting a cut of that emotional power that would, in normal circumstances, be going to this God-Emperor entity Humanity has created, but this usurpation is on such a relatively small scale that it does not greatly affect the God-Emperor in his psychic/Warp form.