I propose we make an accurate one......I can do up the graphic............what we need is people who are knowledgeable on different armies fluff

they have the different marine armies listed......why shouldnt seperate factions of the other armies be listed........they shouldnt have been done up as a blanket answer for all of them

what we need is someone for

Orks
Eldar
Dark Eldar
Necrons
Chaos
Tau
Imperial Guard
Space Marines

I'll have a bash at Eldar and post it tomorrow

Iranna.

Orks:

No clan: never suffers desperate allies debuffs
(Flashgit special character) Bad moonz: Normal
(Snikrot or looted tanks) Blood axes: all imperial forces are battle brothers
(Snikrot or lots of shoota boyz) Death skullz: Can never be more than allies of convenience
(Meganob IC) Goffs: Can never be allied with imperium
Dont remember the others very well. Probably normal.

Tau: Farsight Enclave can never be allied with Orks, Dark Eldar, or Imperial forces. Battle Brothers with Necrons.

chris from what I remember reading the other ork clans dont trust the blood axes because they will trade with the Imperium

I wouldnt think its all Imperium for blood axes maybe just IG units

@Lakota isn't a problem because orks can't allie with orks. Perhaps a stipulation stating that both detachments if over 2k have to be blood axes.

if i remeber right from when I did have the codex you could have more than one clan in an army......they all though didnt trust the Blood Axes due to the fact they would trade with the Imperium

if you had enough stuff to make 2 ork armies and one was a Deathskulls army and the other a blood Axes it would be no different than if I teamed up a Space Wolves with a Dark Angels......yes they will fight together but they truly have no trust for each other


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what are the different Tau Enclaves

There's no Clans anymore. Just fluff clans.

Farsight Enclave, Sa'Cea sept, Tau Sept.

Here's the "improved" Eldar matrix:

(BB=Battle Brothers, AoC=Allies of Convenience, DA=Desperate Allies, CtA=Come the Apocalypse)

Black Templars - CtA (BTs hate witches, I don't understand why they are Allies of Convenience with Eldar)
Blood Angels - DA (After reading about every encounter with the Eldar in the BA codex, it's clear that they harbour a hatred for them - "The Semmel Betrayel")
Chaos Daemons - CtA
Chaos Space Marines - CtA
Dark Angels - AoC (To represent the DA caring more about hunting the Fallen rather than fighting the Xenos).
Dark Eldar - BB (I honestly think this is definately warranted; they are the same species after all.)
Grey Knights - AoC
Imperial Guard - AoC
Necrons - CtA
Orks - DA (This is to represent the Eldar manipulating Orks into doing their bidding, eg. Eldrad and Armageddon.)
Sisters of Battle - CtA (Again, like the Black Templars, the SoB hate witches so I figured that they would abhorr the Eldar.)
Space Marines - AoC
Space Wolves - AoC
Tau - BB (Again, I feel this is warranted as the Eldar see the Tau as one of the more amicable galactic powers, one easily bent to their will.)
Tyranids - DA (This is to represent extremely powerful Farseers taking control of Genestealer Cults, Hive Fleet Remnants or Lesser Tyranid creatures)

Hope people find this one better,

Iranna.

maybe I am not clear as to my thinking...........I feel like if we are doing a fluff friendly one then it should break down the different clans or sects withing an army type in order to greatly be more accurate as to who would fight together or not

dont got my Eldar Codex in front of me but if I rem,ember correctly Biel Tan absolutly hates the imperium

LakotaWolf wrote:maybe I am not clear as to my thinking...........I feel like if we are doing a fluff friendly one then it should break down the different clans or sects withing an army type in order to greatly be more accurate as to who would fight together or not

dont got my Eldar Codex in front of me but if I rem,ember correctly Biel Tan absolutly hates the imperium

Ahh I see, you wanted individualised craftworlds? Sure, I'll adjust it later.

Biel-tan don't hate the Imperium, they hate the Orks. However, no Eldar is above using the "lesser" races to o their bidding, not even Biel-tan.

Iranna.

Orks: Blood Axes ally with Imperial Guard

Space Wolves and Dark Angels: allies of convenience at best...

Ill take a crack at the various eldar factions. The 5 major craftworlds are almost the same as Iranna mentioned above, just a few changes for each.

Biel-Tan: Change orks to CtA, and the IG to da. They hate both for settling the maiden worlds, the former is beyond reason and blindly conquests. The latter is defending what they consider rightfully theirs.

Saim-Hain: About the same, maybe knock a AoC of the IG and Grey Knights to desperate.

Ulthwe: The same, except maybe allied with even the BT or SOB under Desperate alliances. The Coven of Isha is a pact Eldrad formed with the imperium where they both turn aside their differences for mutual aid.

Alaitoc: Same except Desperate with Space Wolves, after the incident on Mynemerra they are less than thrilled to offer help.

Iyanden: Same, except CtA with the bugs. So few in number, they are more than willing to accept help anywhere they can get it.

I would go out to say that all of the Eldar would never ally with the Tyranids. Tyranids have destroyed the craftworld of Malan'tai and almost destroyed Iyanden. Something so serious would not just be overlooked. The bugs are far too dangerous to be left alive, even manipulated.

i got to disagree with DE being battle brothers of any of the eldar factions.........like the codex said they are a reminder of the fall.....and are a violent reminder of the depth of which eldar society plummeted


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what about the different factions of Tau.........they have them willing to team up with just about anybody.....at the same time battle brother of the DA and Eldar......if they would team up with Chaos why would DA or Eldar trust them


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finally necrons and gray Knights are AOC......someone want to explain that

Imperial Guard:

All Battle Brothers are fine, save for Black Templars should be AoC if the army includes any abhumans or Psykers.

GK should be battle brothers if the warlord is an Inquisitor.

Chaos Space Marines and Daemons belong as CtA if the army is Cadian, Mordian, or Tanith

Orks should be CtA if the army is Steel Legion, or Praetorian

I believe Eldar, Orks, and Tau belong as desperate allies.

Some may have qualms with this last suggestion, but mind that standard doctrine is to treat all Xenos with suspicions of hostility until proven otherwise, even the seemingly innocuous Tau (As seen in the Ciaphas Cain novel where they garrison a Tau-occupied world). Space marines work more independent, and likely wouldn't abide by these same doctines, but for guard, the rule "One Eye Open" seems fitting when dealing with Xenos.

Fluffy DA ally matrix IMHO:

LakotaWolf wrote:i got to disagree with DE being battle brothers of any of the eldar factions.........like the codex said they are a reminder of the fall.....and are a violent reminder of the depth of which eldar society plummeted


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what about the different factions of Tau.........they have them willing to team up with just about anybody.....at the same time battle brother of the DA and Eldar......if they would team up with Chaos why would DA or Eldar trust them


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finally necrons and gray Knights are AOC......someone want to explain that

Yes, the dark eldar are reminders of the fall, and the craftworld eldar never want to become such monsters. That being said, there are many other reasons that they could overlook this difference to fight as one army.

1. Mon-keigh is still mon-keigh. Both Eldar factions are arrogant elitists who think themselves superior to everybody, and can easily agree to kill anybody else over killing each other.

2. The Eldar survive by manipulating fate in their favor, the Dark Eldar survive by causing pain, sorrow and destruction. These two are not mutually exclusive, and can work together quite well. Say the eldar need to wipe out a planet or army, but they do not want to risk lives in the process. The ask the dark eldar to help, allowing them to kill and pillage as they please. The eldar are protected(and possibly the blame goes to the Dark Eldar) while the dark eldar get more slaves, cause more pain etc.

3. Harlequins have been working on the relationship between the craftworlds and the dark city. Free to travel between the two and allying with both, harlequins serve as mediators between the factions and desire to preserve the Eldar race as a whole, be it good or evil. Also, the Eldar need more people, and being the same species, they can make babies.

4. Higher eschalons of the dark eldar respect the eldar...somewhat. Khaine is still held in high regard by the dark eldar, and many of the archons agree that the ones who died in the fall were the lucky ones. A dark eldar warrior fighting alongside the Avatar would be just as inspired as an aspect warrior, and would likely kill for the honor.

The only thing that is not ok with Battle Brothers is Incubi fighting with the Craftworld(or vice versa). They wear broken soulstones and kill aspect warriors as a right of passage. That is crossing the line.


As far as Necrons and GK, that has Mat Ward written all over it. In case you are not satisfied with one Ward army, you can get an allied detatchment of another. Draigowings and scythe spam together as one giant piece of

I'm not certain Saim-Hann would be battle brothers with anything except other craftworlds and corsairs, and other craftworlds is pushing it.
They're just not a friend-making bunch. Sure, lots of AoC, but no real BB outside of other semi-rogue Eldar elements. (Saim-Hann keep grudges too much to forgive the killing of their aspect warriors, read Incubi and DE covens)

I still, as i alway have, feel that with the vastness of the 40k galaxy (how they keep a positive population increase always baffles me) that any army can figure out a way to ally with pretty much anything, even the really out of the box ones.

DE
-figure out a way to force any army to fight for them, for example, capture some nids and just release them onto the battle field with some sort of heimy mind control collar

CHAOS
-twisted enemy army by chaos, they (whoever they are) fell to corruption

NID
-go all infested terran on them with brain bugs and organic growths controlling their bodies

ect, ect. the thing is that this wouldnt work both ways with some armies. I could never see GK allying with deamons for example, so i feel that they should have made a more in depth rule set where the nids can take GK as allies for example (again, mind control, GK succombing to hive influence) but the GK cant take nids as allies since, well, they hate them.

It seems to me that the evil forces (and tau) could pretty much figure out a fluffy way to take any ally whereas the imperium of man would have a much more difficult time justifying an alliance with the evil races (though i could see marines accepting an uneasy alliance with an evil race to stop an even more evil race). GW has always been about crafting your own fluff and its really not that hard to invent fluff on your own that does make enough sense to at least take desperate allies with pretty much everyone.

I think people are overthinking the whole Tyranids business. The simple solution is to treat any army which allies with Tyranids as a "Tyranid Cult", "Genestealer Cult", or "Infested Army". I don't think the Tyranids would want to willingly ally any with any non-loyal forces for any reason, which means any outside forces they do ally with are going to be loyal to the Tyranids, either by choice or by infestation.

Could always introduce a special rule for Tyranids called Infested.

INFESTED
Tyranids may take Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard, Orks, Space Marines, or Tau as allies (and vice versa). If you do, however, the non-Tyranid force must be modeled to be infested and will count as Tyranids for the purposes of rules which specifically target Tyranids.


In concerns to other armies, I think Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Guard should count as Battle Brothers, allowing for CSM units to lead IG units in order to allow players to play Renegades or Lost and the Damned properly.

EDIT: Also, if somebody can get me those symbols I can easily make a much better Allies chart than the one GW has provided.

Eldar genestealer cults in general are very rare, obscure, and slow compared to human (or other) cults. It's possible with Dark Eldar, but a World Spirit or Infinity Circuit would detect the anomalous individual(s) long before they spread out of control. It should also be noted that Eldar genetics makes them resistant to genestealers, leading to increased number of generations required in a race that already reproduce more seldom than humans by nature.

Genestealer cults are noted as being fully possible with *any* biological life form, however, though Space Marines are sterile if memory serves so they make really bad targets.

This from a quick search on the nets, though my initial reaction would be "but aren't Eldar immune" but that would be manipulative influences (specifically not pure trickery, of course), aka "corruption".

The allies matrix isnt based on whether the two armies 'like' each other. It is based on how they work effectively as a team, (dark eldar and eldar fight similarly and even speak the same language so they are battle brothers)

What's the point in going out of your way for a "fluff accurate" allies matrix when there's so much conflicting fluff about who will team up with who?

Like it or not, recent codices are just as valid fluff-wise as anything else in the 40k universe.

Ok, so I've seen a few attempts at a Fluff Accurate Allies Matrix...but they kinda fall short in my own opinion. I took a complicated approach, I separated the galaxy into four groups...The Forces of the Imperium, The Forces of Chaos, Benevolent Xenos, and Malevolent Xenos. From that point I further separated them down into groups within each army and where their allegiances lie...and how each individual group viewed the internal forces and each army of each group...

Example - Dark Angels are Xenophobic to their core...they would only work with the Eldar or Tau of the most dire circumstances...the other alien races would be right out of the question...they also have a very bad relationship with the Inquisition and management in general...they also have a legendary rivalry with the Space Wolves (of which...situation permitting...would have champions of theirs fight if they ever meet on the battlefield...regardless if they meet as friends or foes)

Example - Kroot are mercenaries, their Shapers make the decisions for their clans more or less, they personally have no interest in any other race outside their own...besides eating purposes...that aside they are very much like Orks in their demeanour, but this isn't represented by the Tau army envelope...

My point is that I would like people to look at this spreadsheet that I'm making, and I'd like some comments, challenges, and revisions...I'm only one person and I only really know about humanity...I'd greatly appreciate some input

Here's a public copy of the document below...the Master will update to it as I go along...If you have corrections to my allies chart I would love for you to send me your modifications and fluff reasons as to why for corrections...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yvk2gkikxmu5tq7/Allies%20Matrix%20Public%20Copy.ods

The whole system of allies of different races is rubbish. The Dark Elder with Chaos, Tau and Eldar with humans, that's it.

Chaos should be BB with IG. Traitor guard are a huge part of the Chaos forces and they differ not signifigantly from regular IG.

If eldar are going to have any allies, it is going to include DE, their kin.

I disagree...most of the races are at least moderately flexible when it comes to adversity...such as the Eldar lack the raw strength to actually commit to a ground war...so they'd be open to working with another race that isn't straight up evil...like the Tau...or maybe some of the less blood thirsty/feral space marine chapters...they would most likely only reach out to fight against Chaos(Slannesh in specific), the Necrons, or the Tyranid...this would only be in the interests of mutual safety in the wake of such a foe...and also the Eldar would still be watching their own backs...as they barely trust their own kin the Dark Eldar...so...as it were with outside races...the best that could be done would have to be Allies of Convience...

But furthermore about allies...it certainly mixes up the gameplay and makes it much more unpredictable and fun...but anyone who doesn't like allies is most likely because they don't have any or shouldn't have any (example...necrons and grey knights)


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Chaos should be BB with IG. Traitor guard are a huge part of the Chaos forces and they differ not signifigantly from regular IG.

Actually...I did make the distinction of "Chaos Renegades" ...as that's what they are generally called...I also made the point of bringing in the Genestealer cult for a similar reason...so the Tyranid could have crappy ground forces too ...the concept would be...the Imperial Guard...minus all vehicles...just that they'd be like Infected Terrans in Starcraft mostly...minus the being a walking bomb part...

If eldar are going to have any allies, it is going to include DE, their kin.

I don't really know where to start for most of the Xenos...that's why I'm looking for opinions and input...so...please make some revisions and send it on back

Ok this is a simple one

Dark angels: allies of convenience, all imperial
Desperate allies: eldar, tau
Come the apocalypse: everyone else.

Dark angels dont do allies very well, they despise aliens and abhumans, plus the whole "ooo fallen, bye bye" thing

I love orks and have been very into them for a couple years now, i saw chris's posts and i disagree with him.

Looking at the current and general codex view putting clans aside, many orks will work for guns/trade, and as such, can be allies of convenience for many races, perhaps the only battle brothers they could ever have is if they joined up with a IG planet as working for the general under promise to go to war. This is extremely rare, and means the general farmed the orks.

i would say

All space marines: Apocalypse
Imperial Guard: Allies of convenience/battle brothers depending on your fluff.
Eldar/Dark Eldar: Allies of convenience
Nids: Nom nom?
Chaos: Apocalypse
Deamons: Krump'em
SOB: They hate us..
Tau: Hahaha hate... maybe allies of convenience

Templars:

Battle-brothers:

Sisters of Battle - Burn the Heretic!
Space Marines - The Sons of Dorn
Blood Angels - Noble warriors of the Imperium, the Scions of Sanguinius

Allies of Convenience:
Imperial Guard- They are the Emperor's people, but they should stay out of our way
Dark Angels - Remember the Damocles Gulph Crusade!
Space Wolves - Mutants, all of them!
Grey Knights - Keep the Inquisition at arm's length

Desperate Allies:
Eldar - Psyker scum

Come the Apocalypse:
Necrons - Helbrecht wants his hand back!
Chaos Space Marines - ARTPARGAWPGRWAPWFAWPFKILLKILLKILL!!!
Chaos Daemons - see above
Dark Eldar - Kill the Xeno scum!
Tau - Nimbosa belongs to the Emperor now!
Orks - lolwut?
Tyranids - OMNOMNOM

At AlmightyWalrus

Sure...but anything about how the Templars feel about the Inquisition...as in the administrative level mostly...and how about the Grey Knights individually...I'm guessing they'd be viewed as abominations... Also what about the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders (I'd think the charcoal skin wouldn't make them too popular), Raven Guard, and the White Scars...

I also added a separate stipulation to the Templars... "The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them." I thought it appropriate considering the Templars disposition...the Sisters however do not dare chance dominion over the other Space Marine chapters...there is a functional understanding between the two...mostly a respectful relationship with occassional exchanges of gunfire...

At cormadepanda

Since your post I decided to splinter the Orks into their separate primary 6 clans...the Malevolent Xenos page is rather short...my secondary reason is that some short research turned up that there's a big fissure in Ork-dom...that both the Blood Axes and the Deathskulls aren't exactly in the best standing with their own race...Blood Axes for being less Orky and more Humany...and the Deathskulls for being dirty thieves...so aside from their internal affairs issue...do these orks view anyone else differently aside from the Blood Axes dealings with the Imperium as mercenaries...

My biggest beef, is that CSM and Deamons while being Battle Brothers, doesn't have any benefit of it, their respectif Characters can't join the other codex units...

I mean yeah sure, if a Lord with MoK can't join a unit of Deamonettes or Tzeentch Horros, okay, thats own it has to be, but not even the deamons of your own God?, come on!, thats bollocks.

And even if it was because else players would have tried to make Lords and other SC's DS with the Deamon waves etc, then just add a line where they can't be part of the Deamon waves, but they can join them once they are on the table and be done with it!

Or at least let those deploy if they have a termi armor...

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
At AlmightyWalrus

At cormadepanda

Since your post I decided to splinter the Orks into their separate primary 6 clans...the Malevolent Xenos page is rather short...my secondary reason is that some short research turned up that there's a big fissure in Ork-dom...that both the Blood Axes and the Deathskulls aren't exactly in the best standing with their own race...Blood Axes for being less Orky and more Humany...and the Deathskulls for being dirty thieves...so aside from their internal affairs issue...do these orks view anyone else differently aside from the Blood Axes dealings with the Imperium as mercenaries...

Blood Axes are not the only mercenaries in the Ork King-dom
Others are Freebooterz who are klanless orks who work for money - thus forming their own klan. They should be allowed to be battle brothers with guard for fluffy reasons

Other wise all ork clans conflict with each other,
Your the biggest, your not the biggest,
Bad Moons are rich
Deff Skulls are theives
Blood axes are sneaky and back stabbas
Goffs are ard rich jerks
freebooterz kill for who ever pays the most
savage orks - are well savage untill a propa war boss brings them in.
And so on if orks didn't have these internal conflicts and always disagree with each other i would say orks would rule the galaxy almost uncontested.

Thus i would say a rule that should over ride on the ally chart is grazzskull thrakka, he should make any clan ally as if they were battle brothers as that is what he does bring 100's clans together to fight on Armageddon.

Ideally...my fluff army uses the rulebook levels of alliance, but that's as far as it goes...I go so far as to separate chaos from itself...the Chaos Gods are segregated too...seriously take a look at the file though....ods is a spreadsheet and excel will be able to open it...I've also made some more recent changes so I'm going to repost the link again...

http://filext.com/file-extension/ODS

https://www.dropbox.com/s/yvk2gkikxmu5tq7/Allies%20Matrix%20Public%20Copy.ods


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Ok...the Freebooters I can work with...but I don't see the feral orks panning out in the sense that they basically are isolationist orks...that they would essentially be the culmination of all the Orks negative feelings towards other races...which would be...all of them...

Freebooters would most likely have lighter allegiances to all races...like AoC with everything...and DA with the dangerous/anti-social races...like...necrons, demons, and nids?...Tyranids don't even have an established method of communicating...

and I'm to understand that the Ork clans all hate each other...that none are "really" battle brothers...

Hades.Arcadius wrote:

what about the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and the White Scars...

I also added a separate stipulation to the Templars... "The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them."

The BT would have no problem fighting alongside those chapters. I would think being 1st founding legions the BT's respect for the Salamanders and Raven Guard would make them overlook their skin mutations (the BT had no problems with the sallies in the 3rd Armageddon war). I also think they would be proud to fight alongside the IF with them being their father chapter

the pskyer condition is also already in the BT codex so they should be following that rule anyway.

 macc92 wrote:

Hades.Arcadius wrote:

what about the Imperial Fists, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Raven Guard, and the White Scars...

I also added a separate stipulation to the Templars... "The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them."

The BT would have no problem fighting alongside those chapters. I would think being 1st founding legions the BT's respect for the Salamanders and Raven Guard would make them overlook their skin mutations (the BT had no problems with the sallies in the 3rd Armageddon war). I also think they would be proud to fight alongside the IF with them being their father chapter

the pskyer condition is also already in the BT codex so they should be following that rule anyway.

This summed up the Templar stuff. Excellent.

Still wondering about how the Templars view the Inquisition and Grey Knights...I know that the Grey Knights are all Psykers, but how does that work for them...and how do they handle the Inquisition being nosey...

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
Still wondering about how the Templars view the Inquisition and Grey Knights...I know that the Grey Knights are all Psykers, but how does that work for them...and how do they handle the Inquisition being nosey...

Grey Knights are explicitly the only psykers allowed as allies in the BT Codex, because none of them have ever fallen to Chaos. I'd assume that the Inquisition is a bit suspicious, what with the extre 5000 Knights over a standard Chapter.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
Still wondering about how the Templars view the Inquisition and Grey Knights...I know that the Grey Knights are all Psykers, but how does that work for them...and how do they handle the Inquisition being nosey...

Grey Knights are explicitly the only psykers allowed as allies in the BT Codex, because none of them have ever fallen to Chaos. I'd assume that the Inquisition is a bit suspicious, what with the extre 5000 Knights over a standard Chapter.

I would assume that the Inquisition hasn't gotten rid of the BT's yet because the BT's remain one of the most devoted and fanatical chapters to date so I don't see them waging another mass heresy. If any other chapter had an extra 5000 marines, I would be inclined to think the Inquisition would be a bit more on their case

Also, for my IG, you could really find a legitimate reason for an Imperial Guard regiment to ally with just about anyone. You would need to stretch fluff in the case of armies like Necrons, or some of the other heavily Anti-Human xenos (like Eldar), but you could always say they teamed up for the moment to fight a greater combined foe. Think of it like "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

 washout77 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
Still wondering about how the Templars view the Inquisition and Grey Knights...I know that the Grey Knights are all Psykers, but how does that work for them...and how do they handle the Inquisition being nosey...

Grey Knights are explicitly the only psykers allowed as allies in the BT Codex, because none of them have ever fallen to Chaos. I'd assume that the Inquisition is a bit suspicious, what with the extre 5000 Knights over a standard Chapter.

I would assume that the Inquisition hasn't gotten rid of the BT's yet because the BT's remain one of the most devoted and fanatical chapters to date so I don't see them waging another mass heresy. If any other chapter had an extra 5000 marines, I would be inclined to think the Inquisition would be a bit more on their case

Pretty much. The Templars also send a more than average number of Marines to the Deathwatch (even considering their size). Having a good track record certainly helps.

Orks should be able to ally with everyone but the 'nids, their the most common of the xeno (can't remember where I read it ) and can be found anywhere, so surely they Ork A might like dem spikey boys, but ork B might hate them.
You could argue that almost any army could ally with another race.

I had lots of points to make for CSM but my damn tablets autocorrect is making it a pain to type

At the Templars

Alright...that means that the Templars are 90% done...it's too close for me to call on the Inquisition and Grey Knights based on your accounts...would you Templars in the audience tell me if it's Admiration or Respect that they feel for the Grey Knights and Inquisition...it's between AoC and BB...

Added an addendum to the addendum of the Black Templars... "The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them...except the Grey Knights."

At Toastedandy

You should be able to turn off auto-correct on your tablet no matter what operating system you're using...it should be in the settings when the soft keys are out...or in the settings menu...

All orks are AoC unless Grazskull is present in which case he makes them battle brothers, like using Blood Axe Nobs in goff warbands to make them run away in the Armageddon assault effectively tricking the imperium into thinking they won, only to be driving straight into an ambush.

I'll be adding that addendum to the orks...and I didn't forget either...just mostly trying to figure out the Templars while I had their attention...

"All of the Ork clans usually would rather kill each other than work together...there are only a few Orks that can make them rally under one banner, primary armies containing Grazkull as their warlord can treat all other Ork armies as battle brothers."

I'm surprised I haven't seen Blood Angels battle brother with Necrons. I mean that's in the fluff right?

I'd be willing to consider it if you can cite the reasons...

And nids are bros with the templars.

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
At the Templars

Alright...that means that the Templars are 90% done...it's too close for me to call on the Inquisition and Grey Knights based on your accounts...would you Templars in the audience tell me if it's Admiration or Respect that they feel for the Grey Knights and Inquisition...it's between AoC and BB...

Make it AoC, there's a number of Inquisitors that are suspicious about the numbers of the Templars. It's not nessecarily that the Templars don't trust the Inquisition but rather that the Inquisition doesn't trust the Templars in full.

Ok...so currently we have this for Templars, btw if you're asking why there's a lot more Imperium...it's just that the internal group is expanded to show how they work together...not that they always do...

The Forces of the Imperium
Imperial Guard = AoC
Inquisition = AoC
Grey Knights = BB
Sisters of Battle = BB
Blood Angels = BB
Dark Angels = AoC
Imperial Fists = BB
Iron Hands = BB
Salamanders = BB
Raven Guard = BB
Space Wolves = AoC
Ultras = BB
White Scars = BB]

The Forces of Chaos
Chaos Demons = CtA
Chaos Renegades = CtA
Chaos Space Marines = CtA

Benevolent Xenos
Craftworld Eldar = ??
Eldar Harlequins =??
Tau Alliance = ??

Malevolent Xenos
Dark Eldar = ??
Necrons = ??
Orks = ??
Tyranid = ??

Templars wouldn't ever ally with DE, Orks, Necrons (Helbrecht wants his hand back!) or Tyranids. Tau and Eldar would be Desperate Allies, seeing as one of them is the prime enemy in the Nimbosa and Damocles Gulph Crusades and the other is a race made up of Psykers.

Alright,..that sounds about correct...personally I can only really speak for the Dark Angels, so all this help is rather good...

btw srry about my disappearance...been a little busy lately...still need to get some eldar and tau fluff pros in here to set everything straight and such...orks still need some work with internal affairs...chaos also needs to be a little fleshed out...

Does anyone agree that the Ultras/Smurfs should be BB with all internal forces because they're all such goody goodies...with pretty much the most lenient with all the Imperial Allegiances...like the Tau Treaty that allows them to be BB with Space Marines in the 6th ed rules...also that the Tyranid are their most hated enemies...

Which of the other founding chapters strictly follow the Codex Astartes too?...because they would most likely have the same Allegiances as the Ultras...they might view the arms of the Inquisition (Grey Knights, Inquisition, Sisters of Battle) differently though...

I would say salamander SM are come the appoc with anything but the forces of the imperium.

Are they Xenophobic like the Dark Angels...or are they just Isolationists?...the difference could change the structure of their section of the allies chart...

Because they promised the emporah for not being at the battle for terra they would purge all xenos and chaos and not rest till they have all been purged. But they belive in every member of the imperium being frends (look at baddab war they would not join in until they were proven traitor. They would not ally with xenos or chaos they would kill all of them withought question.

No way in hell are the Dark Eldar and Eldar Battle Brothers.

Not unless Chaos Marines and Space Marines can be.

Maybe same 'race' but two totally different idealogies and goals. These two would kill on sight of each other unless Chaos or Nids show up, and still try and scheme against one another to ensure thier demise at a later date.

The dark eldar and eldar are like chaos and imperium

Sounds like Xenophobia on the level of the Dark Angels...ideally I set up the Dark Angels as only able to ally with Craftworld Eldar and Tau, under desperate circumstances only...I'd imagine that the Salamanders would be similar to the Dark Angels for all other forces outside of the Imperium...would you be totally against the Salamanders being Desperate Allies with Eldar and Tau seeing as they would be the only forces respectable and reasonable enough to forget their differences in the face of a greater common foe...

Also I understand that the Salamanders are BB with all the Space Marines and Imperial Guard...how do they view the Administratum?...I ask this question because I know that the Dark Angels hate them and barely tolerate their interloping...and that more than one Inquisitor asking questions have been known to disappear around the Dark Angels...also the Sisters of Battle have a shaky relationship as it is with the Space Marines in general as they view their Primarchs and the Emperor in the same light...as great men...the Sisters think the Emperor should never have an equal ever and that he should be revered as a god and nothing less...which has been the cause of occasional exchanges of bullets between the two groups...


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The Harlequins are actually independent of the Craftworld Eldar and the Dark Eldar, they are actually the only existing link between the two...they follow the laughing god as opposed to the Craftworld Eldar and Dark Eldar which revere Khaine...the Eldar god of war...the Craftworld Eldar would have an alleigance of AoC or less with the Dark Eldar when I get some more Eldar Opinions...

I've been contemplating making it so that the Dark Eldar have a append that states that any army that intends to have Craftworld Eldar may not contain Incubi...as there right of passage is to kill craftworld aspect warriors...

Salamanders would not care about tau and eldar as much but chaos orks or dE are a no no inquisitors would not mind them as they trust the inquistion

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
No way in hell are the Dark Eldar and Eldar Battle Brothers.

Not unless Chaos Marines and Space Marines can be.

Maybe same 'race' but two totally different idealogies and goals. These two would kill on sight of each other unless Chaos or Nids show up, and still try and scheme against one another to ensure thier demise at a later date.

Except the fluff clearly has the Dark Eldar going to the aid of the Eldar.



I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousin, my family and I against stranger.

Mabey on them desperate allies

This is why I've been waiting for Eldar fluff pros...because it sounds like they would be Desperate Allies under normal circumstances...except the Harlequins that are Battle Brothers with both independently...it sounds mostly like the Dark Eldar would protect the Craftworld Eldar only in the interests of being the Dark Eldar to personally do the Craftworld Eldar in without interruption...

I could be wrong of course, but that's the way the fluff is leaning...that aside the splinter between these 3 groups is in direct response to Slanesh, the Fall of the Eldar Empire, and the birth of the Eye of Terror...the Craftworld Eldar focused on creating balance and honing their minds in both peace and war...the Harlequins, followers of the Eldar laughing god, have devoted their lives to a nomadic and monastic life of the ritual retelling of the Fall of the Eldar to all of their kin across the stars...the Dark Eldar have shed their connection to the warp to protect them from the eyes of Slanesh, they hone their bodies instead of their minds and drink the souls of their quarry that further extends their decadence beyond what caused the Fall of the Eldar...

You have been to Afghanistan, you have been there as an American soldier serving in a country with entirely different social outlook, with a strong dislike of you and what you represent. You have killed Taliban and had Taliban kill your people.

Then the aliens land and start butchering and enslaving and devouring everyone, except they have landed in Afghanistan and not the United States. American civilians are treated to witnessing the brutality relayed to them via the tv and internet, they watch the men, women and children dying horrible deaths in droves to the unspeakable 'other' as it unleashes terrible fate onto them.

The American military would be over there, not just in self interest but because the people of Afghanistan are people too. There would be no single force in the universe for uniting humanity like the sudden appearance of a hostile nonhuman sentient species.

You can be your sweet petunias that if some filthy, devolved and barbaric species started killing off craftworld eldar or dark eldar, the other eldar won't see 'some other eldar who are my enemy getting picked off by some aliens', they will see 'some filthy aliens attacking my people.' Also factor in that half the eldar and dark eldar are so old they went to school together.

There is alot of people I went to school with that I'd PERSONALLY shove down the gullet of a Carnifex. So...yeah, you have a point about race, but race only binds so far. If Nids landed in Afghanistan, US and Taliban would work together, but I bet you dollars to dimes, they don't go out of thier way to help in the way say the US and Britian would (and even that is a stretch.)

While for the most part Dark Eldar and Eldar stay away, a number of both will join forces and become Pirates. It's not uncommon to have Eldar, Dark Eldar and Harlies hanging out together stealing stuff from those silly mon-keighs because it is fun.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
There is alot of people I went to school with that I'd PERSONALLY shove down the gullet of a Carnifex. So...yeah, you have a point about race, but race only binds so far. If Nids landed in Afghanistan, US and Taliban would work together, but I bet you dollars to dimes, they don't go out of thier way to help in the way say the US and Britian would (and even that is a stretch.)

No you wouldn't.

When you look at that person you hate, when you look at that group of people you hate, you see other people.

When we encounter another sentient species it will be the singularly most uniting effect ever in the course of humanity, because we will not be a planet of many teams, we will be one of two different teams.

If the tyranids landed in Afghanistan and started unleashing their particular version of hell there, we would not be seeing 'desert terrorists' being consumed for biomass, we'd see our fellow humans being targeted by something utterly repulsive and alien and we'd either swamp the area with troops wanting to help their fellow man or we'd be so aghast we'd nuke the area to stop them.

Nuke yes. Because it solves two problems at once. Flood the area with American lives into an impossible situation? I think we'd nuke the area, and wipe our hands of both problems. Just as if the Nids were attacking and a humvee hit an IED, there wouldn't be one Afghanistan person that would stop and turn around to go help. Not one.

wargey wrote:
The dark eldar and eldar are like chaos and imperium

they really aren't. The craftworkd eldar and dark eldar never fought a war against each other, they never went in and killed each other's patriarchs. They are not trying to convert each other to their supposedly right cause.

It's like grey knights and blood angels. One is all pure and wonderful and the other has a taste for blood. They respect each other to some degree and trust each other far more than anyone else who isn't of the same race.


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 KingmanHighborn wrote:
No way in hell are the Dark Eldar and Eldar Battle Brothers.

Not unless Chaos Marines and Space Marines can be.

Maybe same 'race' but two totally different idealogies and goals. These two would kill on sight of each other unless Chaos or Nids show up, and still try and scheme against one another to ensure thier demise at a later date.

they would not kill each other on sight. They trade with each other.

DE scheme a bit at everything. CWE are out their trying to live their path and dont much care about how eldar who arent on the path live their lives.


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 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
No way in hell are the Dark Eldar and Eldar Battle Brothers.

Not unless Chaos Marines and Space Marines can be.

Maybe same 'race' but two totally different idealogies and goals. These two would kill on sight of each other unless Chaos or Nids show up, and still try and scheme against one another to ensure thier demise at a later date.

Except the fluff clearly has the Dark Eldar going to the aid of the Eldar.



I against my brother, my brothers and I against my cousin, my family and I against stranger.

It also clearly has CWE fighting for the future of all eldar/eldar as a race.

Exergy has some good points about the eldar there. Also keep in mind that all the archons are trying to power grab as much as possible in the dark city. If scheming with cusins who are only trying to live like Buddhists can accomplish that, then so be it. Also the different craftworld's have different philosefies. Also, they both keep peacefull relations with the harlequens and the corsairs. There are mentioned many dark eldars who are corsairs (the duke slikus and the sevred cabal for instance.) I do not know mutch about the exodites, but many of the craftworlds seem to have a good relationship with them, Bibeltan in particular. Also during the Doom of Mymeria campain Mymeria teamed up with alatioc and 3 different corsairs.

The eldars do seem to be a sosial bunch. Even if they shun each other. Also, they are all fighting the necrons for control of the webway. (Well, perhaps not the corsairs and the exodites but who knows?)

Ork Freebooterz (pirates) - anyone exept tau, tyranids and daemons. Keep da teef flowin'!

This was the point that I was making before...that the rift that separates all the Eldar factions is simply conflicts of interest and protocol, and that's even separates some of the craftworlds from each other...

An Example....the Eldar in general are waning as a population, that they aren't exactly supported by a population growth even close to the orks, being faced with this problem the Craftworld Eldar with mandatory military service for all citizens...however the Dark Eldar turn around and use slavery and mercenaries...

These differences would no doubt cause the Craftworld Eldar to feel a little disgusted at their backwards cousins...but I'd imagine they have some sort of a functional relationship with them...It's better to deal with the enemy that you know as opposed to the enemy that you don't...

If we can't find fluff in rulebooks, codices, or black library texts...then we'll simply have to put it to a popular vote between AoC and DA...

I would say despetate allies

Dark Eldar and Eldar almost never actually fight each other. What do Dark Eldar do? They raid, kill and enslave. Would it be easier to raid a human or other basic colony on a planet, or a Craftworld? There is a clear answer here. Eldar on Craftworlds want to continue the survival of their race. Dark Eldar are Eldar, the 2 factions share common enemies, and don't want to fight each other. They both interact with Harlequins, and all in all, they are similar except for what their lives focus on, and what they do. These are an example of Battle Brothers as much as Space Marines and Imperial Guard are.

Does anyone else think that Allies should not be a two way street. In other words do you think that the primary detachment being different should effect the level of the alliance.

For example I could see Dark Eldar Primary being allies of Convienience (or Desperation)with Nids representing captured "slaves" for the fighting pits being forced to fight. But DE not allying with a nid primary force.

OR Nids allowing IG to be an ally (genestealer cult), but not the other way around.

OR Grey Knight Primary being convienience with Dark Angels, but The other way around they would be desparate or come the Apoc(The inquisition can requisition DA allies, but DA does not want to ask for their help.)

 Lord Magnus wrote:
Dark Eldar and Eldar almost never actually fight each other. What do Dark Eldar do? They raid, kill and enslave. Would it be easier to raid a human or other basic colony on a planet, or a Craftworld? There is a clear answer here. Eldar on Craftworlds want to continue the survival of their race. Dark Eldar are Eldar, the 2 factions share common enemies, and don't want to fight each other. They both interact with Harlequins, and all in all, they are similar except for what their lives focus on, and what they do. These are an example of Battle Brothers as much as Space Marines and Imperial Guard are.

they also trade with each other and both use the same webway for transport that other races do not have access. They are def battle brothers.

at Breng77

I was contemplating taking that route...but it seemed to be overly complicated...to make up for this I made a point to point out each individual race's most hated enemy...like the Thousand Sons famous hatred of the Space Wolves (which is represented as Thousand Suns having MH instead of CtA for Space Marines)...but I gave it considerable thought and finally decided that special notes would be the answer for this issue...i'll post a few to show you what I mean...(also I'm still considering the Exodites and possibly Corsairs to have such special notes)

* - The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them...except the Grey Knights.

** - The Dark Angels are notorious Xenophobes, to represent this any ally that uses abhumans (ie Ogryns or Demonhosts) in their detachment has it's status changed to “Desperate Allies”.

* - The Chaos Renegades are essentially the Imperial Guard detachments of the traitor space marine legions, usually the only way to officially represent this is to give your Renegades a decidedly Chaos-ey look with spikes, chaos stars, and other iconography to represent this difference.

** - The Gue'vesa are Human Auxiliaries to the Tau, This is the Tau army with it's Troop section replaced with the Imperial Guard's Troop w/out uniques, also the (Fast Attack) Pathfinders would be removed for (Elite) Stormtroopers. Also, they would have Tau bits interspersed.

* - All of the Ork clans usually would rather kill each other than work together...there are only a few Orks that can make them rally under one banner, primary armies containing Grazkull as their warlord can treat all other Ork armies as battle brothers.

** - The Genestealer Cult is essentially a virulent bioweapon used by the Tyranid to soften up a world for harvest, usually a spore carries in a few Genestealers to propagate this plague, after the first infection takes hold they will pass it to the next generation through breeding with the host species, after about 4 generations there is no visible difference between the tainted host and the untainted host, to represent this you may choose between Imperial Guard, Eldar, Orks, or Tau to infect...but the forces need to have Genestealer bits mixed in as a usual Genestealer cult will not be fully composed of full genetic converts, this force may only be chosen as a secondary army.

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
at Breng77

I was contemplating taking that route...but it seemed to be overly complicated...to make up for this I made a point to point out each individual race's most hated enemy...like the Thousand Sons famous hatred of the Space Wolves (which is represented as Thousand Suns having MH instead of CtA for Space Marines)...but I gave it considerable thought and finally decided that special notes would be the answer for this issue...i'll post a few to show you what I mean...(also I'm still considering the Exodites and possibly Corsairs to have such special notes)

* - The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them...except the Grey Knights.

** - The Dark Angels are notorious Xenophobes, to represent this any ally that uses abhumans (ie Ogryns or Demonhosts) in their detachment has it's status changed to “Desperate Allies”.

* - The Chaos Renegades are essentially the Imperial Guard detachments of the traitor space marine legions, usually the only way to officially represent this is to give your Renegades a decidedly Chaos-ey look with spikes, chaos stars, and other iconography to represent this difference.

** - The Gue'vesa are Human Auxiliaries to the Tau, This is the Tau army with it's Troop section replaced with the Imperial Guard's Troop w/out uniques, also the (Fast Attack) Pathfinders would be removed for (Elite) Stormtroopers. Also, they would have Tau bits interspersed.

* - All of the Ork clans usually would rather kill each other than work together...there are only a few Orks that can make them rally under one banner, primary armies containing Grazkull as their warlord can treat all other Ork armies as battle brothers.

** - The Genestealer Cult is essentially a virulent bioweapon used by the Tyranid to soften up a world for harvest, usually a spore carries in a few Genestealers to propagate this plague, after the first infection takes hold they will pass it to the next generation through breeding with the host species, after about 4 generations there is no visible difference between the tainted host and the untainted host, to represent this you may choose between Imperial Guard, Eldar, Orks, or Tau to infect...but the forces need to have Genestealer bits mixed in as a usual Genestealer cult will not be fully composed of full genetic converts, this force may only be chosen as a secondary army.

Working off of the "not two way street" ally rules, I could see each codex getting a "Army Ally List" in which the codex says what their allies level are with everyone else like the normal chart. The other codex may be different though, so it depends on your primary detachment.

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
at Breng77

I was contemplating taking that route...but it seemed to be overly complicated...to make up for this I made a point to point out each individual race's most hated enemy...like the Thousand Sons famous hatred of the Space Wolves (which is represented as Thousand Suns having MH instead of CtA for Space Marines)...but I gave it considerable thought and finally decided that special notes would be the answer for this issue...i'll post a few to show you what I mean...(also I'm still considering the Exodites and possibly Corsairs to have such special notes)

* - The Black Templars have zero tolerance for psykers, to represent this any of their allies may not use them...except the Grey Knights.

** - The Dark Angels are notorious Xenophobes, to represent this any ally that uses abhumans (ie Ogryns or Demonhosts) in their detachment has it's status changed to “Desperate Allies”.

* - The Chaos Renegades are essentially the Imperial Guard detachments of the traitor space marine legions, usually the only way to officially represent this is to give your Renegades a decidedly Chaos-ey look with spikes, chaos stars, and other iconography to represent this difference.

** - The Gue'vesa are Human Auxiliaries to the Tau, This is the Tau army with it's Troop section replaced with the Imperial Guard's Troop w/out uniques, also the (Fast Attack) Pathfinders would be removed for (Elite) Stormtroopers. Also, they would have Tau bits interspersed.

* - All of the Ork clans usually would rather kill each other than work together...there are only a few Orks that can make them rally under one banner, primary armies containing Grazkull as their warlord can treat all other Ork armies as battle brothers.

** - The Genestealer Cult is essentially a virulent bioweapon used by the Tyranid to soften up a world for harvest, usually a spore carries in a few Genestealers to propagate this plague, after the first infection takes hold they will pass it to the next generation through breeding with the host species, after about 4 generations there is no visible difference between the tainted host and the untainted host, to represent this you may choose between Imperial Guard, Eldar, Orks, or Tau to infect...but the forces need to have Genestealer bits mixed in as a usual Genestealer cult will not be fully composed of full genetic converts, this force may only be chosen as a secondary army.

The issue I see with doing something by Clan, Chapter, Craft world, is that the current codices are not set up to work that way, so it would take a lot of work (unless it is just done via special characters) to define each faction. Things like the Templars no psykers as allies works fine, many of the rest of those are incredibly complicated compared to for instance having the current matrix, but instead of if army A(primary) is battle brothers with Army B, then Army B(primary) is Battle Brothers with Army A. Army A could be battle brothers with Army B, but Army B might only be Convienience with A. Essentially what washout77 is suggesting.

Of course Eldar and dark eldar should be battle brothers. Think of it from an eldars point of view, who would you rather work with, a monkey who will probabilly rip your face off or your weird rapist couisen, who you can convinve not to rape you by saying you can rape the monkeys insted (as i said, very,very weird cousin).

Plus the dark eldar ad the eldar dont activily hate each other. They view each other as different life styles, and an eldar CAN swap between them (read path of the warrior/outcast). The eldar are a declining race and they dont have the manpower to spend on each other, so the have a begrudging acceptence of each other. Read path of the outcast to see a webway metropalis (not the dark city) where both factions live side by side, if not harmouniously.

Be that as it may, apart form eldar, no one else likes dark eldar

Hmm...I still motion that it shouldn't go below allies of convenience...they don't actively trust/revere each other...the freebooterz don't particularly care where da teef come from...a mercenary allegiance is AoC specifically...there's an exchange going on...BB will assist on good will alone...and DA means that they hate each other but they can forget their differences for a common foe...and lol...i suppose that CtA means that if we play an apocalypse game, then we can use anyone as allies

But that's pretty much the breakdown...and I do agree that their allegiance is sketchy at best...some fluff claims extreme hate and animosity...some fluff claims a functional relationship...some fluff talks about friendly relations...it's all pretty scattered...I guess we should start paying attention to which craftworlds are associated with each piece of fluff and that may give us a picture of each groups allegiance...

Help out of the good of their hearts you say? Well the dark eldar helped Lyanden survive an ork waaagh! which would of destroyed them, they gained nothing from it. When asked why the dark eldar simply said they enjoy watch Lyandens forays into necromancy. If thats not goodness of heart ( in 40k at least) what is?

I've written it down...any other such linked fluff?

OK, ill pool my resorces.

Incubi turned striking scorpion in path of the warrior.
Eldar, Deldar and quins work together to beat a chaos sorcerer in the webway. (Deldar codex)
Dark eldar, eldar and corsair ships work together. (path of the outcast)
Exodite turns Deldar and is accepted. (path of the renegade)
Webway port where all aspects of eldar live/trade together. (path of the outcast)
Deldar work with corsairs and quins to gather soulstones to trade with CW eldar. (path of the outcast)
Corsair joins Deldar fleet and eventually gets very high on the command structure. (P O T outcast.)
Afore mentioned Deldar helping Lyanden.
Haemonculi within webport treat all eldar.
They all share the same bar in the webport, small but telling detail.
Deldar dont have any problem...procreating with corsair's. Then again they dont have much of a problem doing that with anything.

Thats all i got, but i have lost my path of the outcast which has a lot of detail about there relationship, i havn't read path of the seer or the doom of Mynerea. Is that enough

The more we talk about the Eldar...the more it sounds like I should take the Dark Eldar out of Maleveolent Xenos and that I should add in the corsairs into Benevolent Xenos with them...which feels odd to say the least...So I'm thinking of renaming the group as "Eldar Empire and Tau Alliance"...and the other simply as Xenos...though I might just have to move the Tau in with the other Xenos anyway...

well...after careful consideration, I'm going to enter in the Corsairs and to also shift over the Dark Eldar entries so that the Eldar have their own section...any objections?

They deserve it, as they are essentually the same race. It would be like excluding grey knights from the imperial one because...they are OP? lol

The Dark Eldar used to employ soul-seeker ammo made from killed wraitguard and looted from wraith bone. The Crucible of Malediction seems custom made for killing Eldar. The argument for them being close because of racial ties isn't any stronger than the argument they hate each other as traitors of their own kind.

 amanita wrote:
The Dark Eldar used to employ soul-seeker ammo made from killed wraitguard and looted from wraith bone. The Crucible of Malediction seems custom made for killing Eldar. The argument for them being close because of racial ties isn't any stronger than the argument they hate each other as traitors of their own kind.

Out of date much? Soul seeker ammo isn't in the new codex and ive only seen it in soulstorm, you know, back when mandrakes where canabalistic gimps? The Crucible is made from captured psykers and effects psykers, the fact it effects all eldar is a bonus Also you cannot compare some dark eldar to the entire race, Yes in path of the renagade they go an raid a exodite world and show contempt for the tree huggers (exodites) but in path of the outcast they seem to activily work, trade and even live together. Also there have been very few real battles between them, i carnt find any references to any battles on the time line of either race, which could be interpretted that there have been no big battles of note between them.

*EDIT* Also a quote from Eldrad (or one of the famous farseers, the name elludes me) says that in locking there true potensial away, they become less then they are (CWE). And perhaps those we left behind (DE) where the lucky ones. This leads me to belive they show no contempt for the dark eldar way of live and dont see them as traitors, if anything they think pity of the dark eldar.

Pshaw...old info isn't necessarily out of date info nor does it make it irrelevant. Just because the newer codex omits any direct references of kin-strife doesn't mean it's non-existent. The previous codex has a 3/4 page story about how the sides hate each other, and nothing presented since contradicts that.

They may not be the worst of enemies but they are hardly allies either.

Yeah... contradicting fluff...just because one is newer doesnt make it absolutely correct...old fluff is still important...and compramises are made when fluff conrtadicts...like the dark angels that would never take xenos allies...but have friendly relations with the tau...thus desperate allies...or the black templars which would kill an allied psyker on site, but can fight shoulder to shoulder with grey knights without the slightest whimper...or maybe how the orks didnt have such strong devisions in early fluff, but now the blood axes are outcasts in their own race for being more human-like than orky...

Hades.Arcadius wrote:
Yeah... contradicting fluff...just because one is newer doesnt make it absolutely correct...old fluff is still important...and compramises are made when fluff conrtadicts...like the dark angels that would never take xenos allies...but have friendly relations with the tau...thus desperate allies...or the black templars which would kill an allied psyker on site, but can fight shoulder to shoulder with grey knights without the slightest whimper...or maybe how the orks didnt have such strong devisions in early fluff, but now the blood axes are outcasts in their own race for being more human-like than orky...

When I read the ork codex I didn't get the feelings that the blood axes were outcasts. . . just not trusted.

As far as the eldar and dark eldar are concerned, they are battle brothers because as others have said, they would not stand idly by and watch another race kill eldar from another kindred (i.e. craftworld, dark eldar, exodites etc.) without interfering. They also regularly co-exist (i.e path of the outcast) and co-operate if it benefits both of them to do so.

Sure they come into conflict with eachother occasionally, but with nowhere the regularity of chaos and the Imperium. They also never engage in major wars with eachother as they don't have the need or the manpower to do so.

that's why I was thinking allies of convience... but with the large amount of evidence it seems most appropriate to make them battle brothers. ..