had this question in our local group of 40k players. Debate please.
"Hey fellas, I'm going through the Rulebook to make sure I have a solid understanding and I came across this question:
Swooping flying MCs that fail a grounded test don't lose the hard to hit rule. Agree or disagree and reasons why?
Thanks."

I asked the question. I say they still have it. OP, how about a poll on this one?

Been there done that.

ty sir

To clarify my stance - RAW fmc's keep hard to hit even after failing a ground test if they're in swoop mods. However to avoid arguments (and because it makes sense) I'll treat grounded MC's as gliding until FAQ'ed one way or another.

If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Yeah it's a double edged sword but the idea is met with opposition here locally.

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

While i agree with your view from a common sense outlook (It's how i've played my tyrants and will continue to play them) the hard to hit rule is conferred when a FMC chooses to swoop. The rulebook needs to have a line of text that says grounded MC's lose the hard to hit rule, as well as jink.

So to reiterate - I play it grounded as common sense, but RAW they are still hit on 6's and take grounded tests. It's a dumb argument but nonetheless i just had to bring it up because i'm too obsessive over minutiae.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

While i agree with your view from a common sense outlook (It's how i've played my tyrants and will continue to play them) the hard to hit rule is conferred when a FMC chooses to swoop. The rulebook needs to have a line of text that says grounded MC's lose the hard to hit rule, as well as jink.

So to reiterate - I play it grounded as common sense, but RAW they are still hit on 6's and take grounded tests. It's a dumb argument but nonetheless i just had to bring it up because i'm too obsessive over minutiae.

No because, as i've said a thousand times, if you follow that logic then at no point does the MC ever lose the hard to hit rule. If it only loses it by explicitly stating that it no long has the hard to hit rule, then it would carry on to the next turn - even if the MC was gliding.

A MC can be gliding, swooping or grounded. If it is one, then it cannot be the other.

Testify wrote:
No because, as i've said a thousand times, if you follow that logic then at no point does the MC ever lose the hard to hit rule. If it only loses it by explicitly stating that it no long has the hard to hit rule, then it would carry on to the next turn - even if the MC was gliding.

A MC can be gliding, swooping or grounded. If it is one, then it cannot be the other.

I'm with you on this mostly. Why does the grounded status specifically mention the FMC loses the 'jink' rule? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying the book needs 1 MORE line of text to make RAI=RAW.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

And you have some actual printed rules that says a grounded MC is no longer swooping?

Please point me to that page.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

And you have some actual printed rules that says a grounded MC is no longer swooping?

Please point me to that page.

exactly. the raw gives a list of what happens once 'grounded', no longer being 'hard to hit' is not in that list iirc

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:If they keep Hard to hit, they keep all of the rules for swooping, that means more tests for grounding and the wounds that come with it if they fail.

Nope because they're not swooping, they're grounded.
A swooping monstrous creature has the hard to hit rule.
A grounded monstrous creature is...a grounded monstrous creature. Shockingly difficult as it is to comprehend.

And you have some actual printed rules that says a grounded MC is no longer swooping?

Please point me to that page.

Please point me to the page where it says that hard to hit EVER leaves the MC.
Either grounding overrules swooping, or swooping is always in place - note that nowhere in the description for gliding does it state that the MC is no longer swooping.

So either each state over-rides the other, or they all stack up indefinitely. You can't have it both ways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tetrisphreak wrote:
I'm with you on this mostly. Why does the grounded status specifically mention the FMC loses the 'jink' rule? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying the book needs 1 MORE line of text to make RAI=RAW.

That's true. I assume they thought that it would be obvious that a grounded monstrous creature was no longer hard to hit.

Testify wrote:Please point me to the page where it says that hard to hit EVER leaves the MC.
Either grounding overrules swooping, or swooping is always in place - note that nowhere in the description for gliding does it state that the MC is no longer swooping.
So either each state over-rides the other, or they all stack up indefinitely. You can't have it both ways.

You loose Hard to Hit when you change from Swooping to Gliding. The rules state that you must choose one state or the other at the begining of the movement phase. You use the rules for the state that you choose at the start of the movement phase until your next movement phase.

The problem is they poorly defined the "Grounded" state. Some people around here try to argue that as you are neither Swooping or Gliding at the start of your movement phase that you can never get back off the ground and the unit is permenently grounded for the rest of the game. (Generaly its TFG and we ignore him).

I personaly use that he is no longer Hard to Hit once grounded.

Gloomfang wrote:

Testify wrote:Please point me to the page where it says that hard to hit EVER leaves the MC.
Either grounding overrules swooping, or swooping is always in place - note that nowhere in the description for gliding does it state that the MC is no longer swooping.
So either each state over-rides the other, or they all stack up indefinitely. You can't have it both ways.

You loose Hard to Hit when you change from Swooping to Gliding. The rules state that you must choose one state or the other at the begining of the movement phase. You use the rules for the state that you choose at the start of the movement phase until your next movement phase.

Source?
I'm playing devil's advocate here - my point is that the rulebook does not state exactly that the effects end. We therefore infer that the states override. Grounded is a state, therefore the Swooping rules no longer apply.

Gloomfang wrote:
The problem is they poorly defined the "Grounded" state. Some people around here try to argue that as you are neither Swooping or Gliding at the start of your movement phase that you can never get back off the ground and the unit is permenently grounded for the rest of the game. (Generaly its TFG and we ignore him).

I personaly use that he is no longer Hard to Hit once grounded.

Right. Saying that one thing is not clearly defined does not automatically mean the the opposite is true. The rulebook does not state that the FMC retains Hard To Hit, people are assuming that it does.
edit - It specifies that Jink has ended because Jink specifically says that it lasts until the start of the next turn. Without the rulebook stating that it loses jink, it would retain even after swooping was lost.
So if the rulebook simply said that the FMC was Grounded, it would retain jink but lose Hard To Hit.

The Hard to hit rules state that only when it is swooping does it gain the benefit of the hard to Hit rule.

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target..." P.49

They start by indication that a MC that is Swooping is the subject of this rule.

Then Shots resolved at such a target (One that is Swooping) .

and of course you must choose Swooping or Gliding at the start of the movement phase.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

I would have thought it was similar to hitting an immobilized vehicle in melee.

Before receiving an immobilized result you compare WS. Any attacks at lower initiative that occur after the immobilized result automatically hit.

Why wouldn't a swooping monstrous creature work along the same lines?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:I would have thought it was similar to hitting an immobilized vehicle in melee.

Before receiving an immobilized result you compare WS. Any attacks at lower initiative that occur after the immobilized result automatically hit.

Why wouldn't a swooping monstrous creature work along the same lines?

DoW

It probably should, but the rules are not written to allow that to happen.

This is because the MC has been declared as Swooping in the movement phase, and will not change until the MC's next movement phase as Grounded does not specifically take away the Swooping status.

DeathReaper wrote:
This is because the MC has been declared as Swooping in the movement phase, and will not change until the MC's next movement phase as Grounded does not specifically take away the Swooping status.

Neither does gliding.
Find me the page that says that a FMC that's gliding is no longer Hard To Hit.

The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

And the fact that it states that the MC is now a Grounded MC would suggest the same...

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

And the fact that it states that the MC is now a Grounded MC would suggest the same...

Except thats not what Grounded says.


Grounded says you lose your Jink save and can be assaulted. I doesn't say you cease to Swoop.

Unlike the part where you choose to either Swoop or Glide. The language there is that one is exclusive of the other.

Grounded is not exclusive of Swooping. Its mearly a substate of Swooping.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:The fact that you choose if they are Swooping or Gliding in the movement phase tells us that the former status goes away.

And the fact that it states that the MC is now a Grounded MC would suggest the same...

That may be RAI.

But the RAW says you choose Swoop or glide at the start of the movement phase. so unless something states that they loose Swooping, or they change to gliding, then they are still Swooping as that is the movement mode they chose at the start of the movement phase.

Hmm, okay perhaps it's more like shooting a flatout skimmer from 5th.

If —and this is a hypothetical— the rule that stated 'immobilized' results became 'wrecked' results didn't exist, there would be nothing to stop you from still getting your flatout cover save from subsequent shooting in the same phase.

Grounding really doesn't specify that you completely lose all benefits of swooping, just those stated. Would it not have made sense for them to say something like "The MC no longer counts as swooping"?

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:Hmm, okay perhaps it's more like shooting a flatout skimmer from 5th.

If —and this is a hypothetical— the rule that stated 'immobilized' results became 'wrecked' results didn't exist, there would be nothing to stop you from still getting your flatout cover save from subsequent shooting in the same phase.

That is correct if that part did not exist.

DogOfWar wrote:Grounding really doesn't specify that you completely lose all benefits of swooping, just those stated. Would it not have made sense for them to say something like "The MC no longer counts as swooping"?

Yes It would have made sense for them to state that.

It would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

DeathReaper wrote:
Yes It would have made sense for them to state that.

I know GW people read this forum. At one point, somewhere in history, at least..

I'm starting to think that GW runs like the military, or failing that.. Has military mindset as far as "sense"

Cheers

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
This is because the MC has been declared as Swooping in the movement phase, and will not change until the MC's next movement phase as Grounded does not specifically take away the Swooping status.

Neither does gliding.
Find me the page that says that a FMC that's gliding is no longer Hard To Hit.

Page 49, Testify. First paragraph.

Not sure if this debate needs to rear its head again; but the end analysis is that it is a horribly written rule and will be FAQed soon. I've stopped keeping a horse in the race on this one since even in my "first glance" pass through the rulebook I did a double take and went... wtf.

Think of it this way; the problem is that Glide and Swoop are... radio buttons, while Grounded is an on / off button. No where in the rules are these two "buttons" related to the other (other than the obvious fact that you can't be grounded while gliding). 100% RAW you would literally be the bouncing ball FMC since the radio button was never switched from Swoop to Glide, you just now have the Grounded button set to on. In other words, you're still swooping and can be forced to take additional grounding tests. Clearly that is not what GW intended... or maybe it is... oh save us all... but for now that is as RAW as it gets. The FMC rules clearly state you are either Gliding or Swooping, it does not say Grounded has any affect on which of those two states we are in, or that it is some 3rd state in the "radio button".

In our group we've been playing it that when you are Grounded you are now Gliding. Yes that flies in the face of RAW but we felt it was the most common sense, balanced approach until it's FAQed. I'd kill for the "wishful" thinking version of it maintains Hard to Hit and yet I can't be Grounded any further (ie like Testify's interpretation); but I'll opt to be very pleasantly surprised if that is indeed the ruling when the FAQ lands.

You really have to be joking right?

I really had no plans to get into this debate until I actually read the rules in question and then began to question the sportsmanship of everyone in this thread trying to maintain that a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is still either Swooping or Gliding.

Hard to Hit:

"A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without.....'

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature =/= A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. This isn't rocket science nor is it a question if a GFMC is still Swooping. The conditions for Hard to Hit are set in stone; a SFMC. Nothing more and nothing less.

Even if you were to say that after being Grounded, the FMC is still Swooping, you are still not fulfilling the condition set by Hard to hit as you are now a SGFMC, not a SFMC.

Grounded Tests:

Besides the blatantly obvious use of wording that a SFMC that fails its Grounded test BECOMES Grounded, ie, no Longer Swooping or Gliding, we have an explicit and specific title given, GFMC.

In addition, the GFMC can now be charged in the following assault phase, specifically prohibited when a SFMC, and zero permission for the mythical SGFMC.

It also loses the Jink special rule, however note what is in the parentheses, (if it had it). This is only to note that if Grounded after having Dived, the GFMC loses its cover save granted by the Jink USR.

Lastly, it tells you that the GFMC can then move normally in its next turn. If something is allowed to move normally next turn, it must be moving abnormally this turn. As the normal movement for a FMC is either Swooping or Gliding, a GFMC would be considered moving abnormally. Thus the permission to move normally the next turn.

This isn't some huge RAW versus RAI debate or a case of crappy rules writing by GW. You cannot argue the set in stone condition for Hard to Hit, SFMC. Not a GFMC or the mythical SGFMC, just a SFMC.

What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I really had no plans to get into this debate until I actually read the rules in question and then began to question the sportsmanship of everyone in this thread trying to maintain that a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is still either Swooping or Gliding.

Will this ever stop?
It's sportsmanlike to play by the rules. It's sports,a like to have a rules discussion. It's not sportsmanlike to insinuate cheating just because the rules aren't 100% clear.

Dear god... Discussions in YMDC are rarely played the way they're argued.

rigeld2 wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:
I really had no plans to get into this debate until I actually read the rules in question and then began to question the sportsmanship of everyone in this thread trying to maintain that a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is still either Swooping or Gliding.

Will this ever stop?
It's sportsmanlike to play by the rules. It's sports,a like to have a rules discussion. It's not sportsmanlike to insinuate cheating just because the rules aren't 100% clear.

Dear god... Discussions in YMDC are rarely played the way they're argued.

Yea here we argue RAW, that don't mean we always follow it IRL.
With that said the RAW in this situation is clear and arguing is pointless, honestly i suggest you get together with your gaming group and house rule it, other than that ask the TO.

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Nothing states that swooping ever ends. Note that the gliding entry does not specifiy that Hard To Hit is no longer in effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Except thats not what Grounded says.


Grounded says you lose your Jink save and can be assaulted. I doesn't say you cease to Swoop.

Unlike the part where you choose to either Swoop or Glide. The language there is that one is exclusive of the other.

Grounded is not exclusive of Swooping. Its mearly a substate of Swooping.

You are inferring that it is a substate of swooping. You have no RAW argument to back it up.

Semantically speaking it is obvious that it over-rides swooping, to the extent that they didn't feel the need to explicitly state it. Any more than a model that's dead is no longer alive, or a model with 1 wound no longer has 2 wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoverBoy wrote:
Yea here we argue RAW, that don't mean we always follow it IRL.
With that said the RAW in this situation is clear and arguing is pointless, honestly i suggest you get together with your gaming group and house rule it, other than that ask the TO.

A lot of people in YMDC are so hooked on this argument that they will insist that RAW points to an absurd and badly-written rule that proves that GW are incompetant. But this rule is not badly written - grounding over-rides swooping.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Nothing states that swooping ever ends. Note that the gliding entry does not specifiy that Hard To Hit is no longer in effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:
Except thats not what Grounded says.


Grounded says you lose your Jink save and can be assaulted. I doesn't say you cease to Swoop.

Unlike the part where you choose to either Swoop or Glide. The language there is that one is exclusive of the other.

Grounded is not exclusive of Swooping. Its mearly a substate of Swooping.

You are inferring that it is a substate of swooping. You have no RAW argument to back it up.

Semantically speaking it is obvious that it over-rides swooping, to the extent that they didn't feel the need to explicitly state it. Any more than a model that's dead is no longer alive, or a model with 1 wound no longer has 2 wounds.

Actually, I have a RAW argument that they both apply.

Because Grounded doesn't say you stop Swooping, you do not stop it. Permissive rule set you know.


The only thing Grounded does is override two things Swooping applies to your creature. You no longer have a Jink save and you may be assaulted. That is all.

Therefore, the RAW is that the FMC is still Swooping. It is still Hard to Hit, but the other 2 effects of Swooping have been specifically removed because of the Grounded rule.


Grounded and Swooping are not in conflict because Grounded comes in a specific order of operations and has priority(but never removes the Swooping state)

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Nothing states that swooping ever ends. Note that the gliding entry does not specifiy that Hard To Hit is no longer in effect.

You keep saying this, even after it's been pointed out that in the 'Changing Flight Mode' section, it says you must choose 'Swooping or Gliding'. They are exclusive states. If you are Gliding then you behave exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature (no Hard to Hit, Dive, Grounding Tests, etc), if you choose Swooping then all the Swooping rules apply.

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

The Grounded rules does exactly that when it specifically tells you that the Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES Grounded and then refers specifically to it from that point as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

From that point of BECOMING a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature again, which the rule allows when it tells you that you can move normally in its next turn.

That is how a permissive ruleset works. The rule tells you that you BECOME Grounded and then gives you permission to BECOME Swooping or Gliding on its next turn.

Despite the explaination above, it still wouldn't matter when it comes to Hard to Hit because that rule is 100% clear on what it applies to, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. There is absolutely zero RAW support room for the mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature to maintain the requirements of Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

The Grounded rules does exactly that when it specifically tells you that the Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES Grounded and then refers specifically to it from that point as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

From that point of BECOMING a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature again, which the rule allows when it tells you that you can move normally in its next turn.

That is how a permissive ruleset works. The rule tells you that you BECOME Grounded and then gives you permission to BECOME Swooping or Gliding on its next turn.

Despite the explaination above, it still wouldn't matter when it comes to Hard to Hit because that rule is 100% clear on what it applies to, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. There is absolutely zero RAW support room for the mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature to maintain the requirements of Hard to Hit.

Wrong, in a permissive ruleset you MUST be told to stop doing something if you are doing it for that action/state of being to cease.

I am either poor or rich. I become a College Student. Does that mean that I am no longer either poor or rich? No, they are no mutually exclusive states.

We are not told to stop swooping. We are very specifically told that we no longer get a Jink save and that we can be assaulted.

If they had meant for the FMC to not be swooping they would have said as much. It would have removed the Jink save, allow the MC to be assaulted, and have removed Hard to Hit all at once. But they only said "you no longer get a jink save and can be assaulted"


They are still a Swooping FMC for all purposes, with special exceptions to the normal rules as outlined in th Grounded rules.

You can't assault a swooping FMC - therefore its no longer swooping after failing a grounding test.

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, I have a RAW argument that they both apply.

Because Grounded doesn't say you stop Swooping, you do not stop it. Permissive rule set you know.


The only thing Grounded does is override two things Swooping applies to your creature. You no longer have a Jink save and you may be assaulted. That is all.

Therefore, the RAW is that the FMC is still Swooping. It is still Hard to Hit, but the other 2 effects of Swooping have been specifically removed because of the Grounded rule.


Grounded and Swooping are not in conflict because Grounded comes in a specific order of operations and has priority(but never removes the Swooping state)

Yep. Nothing removes the Swooping state. The rules state that you choose to MOVE as swooping or gliding. They don't state that all previous effects no longer apply. Hard to Hit has no expiration in the rule, therefore it applies indefinitely. "Permissive Ruleset" eh?

undertow wrote:
You keep saying this, even after it's been pointed out that in the 'Changing Flight Mode' section, it says you must choose 'Swooping or Gliding'. They are exclusive states.

Yep, but...

undertow wrote:
If you are Gliding then you behave exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature (no Hard to Hit, Dive, Grounding Tests, etc), if you choose Swooping then all the Swooping rules apply.

Where does it say this in the rulebook? Find me the page where it says that hard to hit is cancelled once the FMC starts gliding again.

If a Grounded Monstrous Creature still has Hard To Hit, then a gliding one must as well - the rules do not say that Grounding ends Hard To Hit, they also don't say that Gliding ends it.

Testify wrote:Yep. Nothing removes the Swooping state. The rules state that you choose to MOVE as swooping or gliding. They don't state that all previous effects no longer apply. Hard to Hit has no expiration in the rule, therefore it applies indefinitely. "Permissive Ruleset" eh?

Actually the rules for Swooping/Gliding remove the state at the start of its next turn. Re-read P.49. It tells you this specifically under the "Changing Flight Mode" section.

As it stands that is the only way to change your flight mode.

Testify wrote:

undertow wrote:
You keep saying this, even after it's been pointed out that in the 'Changing Flight Mode' section, it says you must choose 'Swooping or Gliding'. They are exclusive states.

Yep, but...

undertow wrote:
If you are Gliding then you behave exactly like a Jump Monstrous Creature (no Hard to Hit, Dive, Grounding Tests, etc), if you choose Swooping then all the Swooping rules apply.

Where does it say this in the rulebook? Find me the page where it says that hard to hit is cancelled once the FMC starts gliding again.

If a Grounded Monstrous Creature still has Hard To Hit, then a gliding one must as well - the rules do not say that Grounding ends Hard To Hit, they also don't say that Gliding ends it.

Page 49. in the rulebook says that.

The underlined argument is Incorrect.

Dozer Blades wrote:You can't assault a swooping FMC - therefore its no longer swooping after failing a grounding test.

No, the Grounding test's effect is that it gives an exception to the rule you can't assault a FMC thats Swooping. It specifically allows you to assault a Swooping FMC.

Testify wrote:
You are inferring that it is a substate of swooping. You have no RAW argument to back it up.

Semantically speaking it is obvious that it over-rides swooping, to the extent that they didn't feel the need to explicitly state it. Any more than a model that's dead is no longer alive, or a model with 1 wound no longer has 2 wounds.

Normally I would completely agree with you, but in this case, the rules are so specific to set out that an FMC is either Gliding or Swooping that your argument falls apart. Grounded is an effect or state, NOT a movement mode. The rules make zero RAW relationship with Grounded and the two movement states that they so clearly define at the beginning of the FMC rules. Comparing it to being alive and dead is an invalid argument as alive / dead are mutually exclusive in RAW, RAI, semantically, whatever.

Had the rules stated "Your FMC is either Gliding, Swopping, or Grounded," you'd have an argument. But saying that Grounded is a third movement state doesn't hold any water. In terms of RAW, it would be like saying I wasn't Swooping because I was Raged. I'm not saying it is what GW intended, I'm just saying the rules are total fail.

Grey Templar wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:What gets rid of the Swooping status? Nothing in the Grounded entry overwrites or negates Swooping.

Swooping and Gliding are the movement modes, and they are in them until the MC's next movement phase where he declares what type of movement he is going to use.

"SWOOPING
If a Flying Monstrous Crearure is Swooping, it moves..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Swooping.

"GLIDING
If a Flying Monstrous Creature is Gliding..." P.49

This establishes that it gains rules IF it is Gliding.

A statement like: "The MC no longer counts as swooping" would be required for the MC to loose its swooping status.

P.S. Tyr, that is probably how it was intended, but the RAW lacks any wording to that effect.

The Grounded rules does exactly that when it specifically tells you that the Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES Grounded and then refers specifically to it from that point as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

From that point of BECOMING a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature again, which the rule allows when it tells you that you can move normally in its next turn.

That is how a permissive ruleset works. The rule tells you that you BECOME Grounded and then gives you permission to BECOME Swooping or Gliding on its next turn.

Despite the explaination above, it still wouldn't matter when it comes to Hard to Hit because that rule is 100% clear on what it applies to, a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. There is absolutely zero RAW support room for the mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature to maintain the requirements of Hard to Hit.

Wrong, in a permissive ruleset you MUST be told to stop doing something if you are doing it for that action/state of being to cease.

I am either poor or rich. I become a College Student. Does that mean that I am no longer either poor or rich? No, they are no mutually exclusive states.

We are not told to stop swooping. We are very specifically told that we no longer get a Jink save and that we can be assaulted.

If they had meant for the FMC to not be swooping they would have said as much. It would have removed the Jink save, allow the MC to be assaulted, and have removed Hard to Hit all at once. But they only said "you no longer get a jink save and can be assaulted"


They are still a Swooping FMC for all purposes, with special exceptions to the normal rules as outlined in th Grounded rules.

You are pushing a, "The rules don't say I can't, so I can", argument which is not how this game works.

When the rules tell you that you BECOME a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Monstrous Creature again, which is exactly what the rules do by telling you that it can move normally on its next turn.

The very fact that the GFMC is given permission to move normally on its next turn supports that Grounded is a specific state that is not Swooping or Gliding as both are the normal modes for a FMC.

This reminds me of the Dreadknight with a personal teleporter argument on the Bolter & Chainsword, that despite the RAW telling you that it became JI, people tried to create a mythical JI/MC hybrid with zero rules support. This was later proved by the FAQ to be wrong as they made the DK with a personal teleporter a MC that only moved like JI, not a MC/JI hybrid. The people were wrong on creating a new unit type then and you are wrong on this one now.

The RAW is clear, a GFMC is not a SFMC nor a GFMC. And there is no such thing as a SGFMC nor a GGFMC.

a FMC that has been grounded still chose Swooping at the start of its movement phase. It is still in Swooping Flight Mode.

It lasts until the start of its next turn, as nothing states that Swooping is removed.

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes" P.49

That is it, only 2 modes.

So then if it grounded it's no longer in a flight mode.

Dozer Blades wrote:So then if it grounded it's no longer in a flight mode.

And the rules that state that are on what page?

There is no permission to not be in a flight mode.

No, Grounded is not a mode. Its mearly a modification of Swooping.

Dude you just proved it yourself in your last post. You've already quoted the page - hence no need for me to repeat it.

Dozer Blades wrote:Dude you just proved it yourself in your last post. You've already quoted the page - hence no need for me to repeat it.

Quote where I "Proved it"

I do not see anything that states that (a Grounded MC is no longer in Swooping Flight Mode.)

The word grounded explicitly implies the unit is no longer flying. This is just something that you want but the rules don't support your stance.

No, I do not "want or not want it." I do not care either way as long as the rules are followed.

Please do not accuse me of having a motive when clearly there is none. I look at the rules with an Impartial eye, please do not make accusations to the contrary.

The rules may imply that it looses Swooping, but unless they actually say that the MC looses Swooping then it does not loose Swooping, and the rules that go with it.

My explaination for it is that the FMC doesn't actually hit the ground till the end of the shooting phase, so its still in the air and as such is hard to hit but each hit might unbalance it even more. Hence it taking more hits by face planting.

Grounded =/= Flying

Pretty simply and nowhere does the rules state it occurs at the end of the shooting phase... Grasping at straws now.

Dozer Blades wrote:Grounded =/= Flying.

You have a rules quote that says this?

Please quote it, or tell me where I can read this information.

If not, it is simply not true.

Dozer Blades wrote:Grounded =/= Flying

Pretty simply and nowhere does the rules state it occurs at the end of the shooting phase... Grasping at straws now.

I understand your view, it's common sense that once a FMC becomes grounded one would assume it is no longer swooping.

However, the rules clearly state that a Swooping FMC specifically loses its jink save and the immunity to assaults. That's it.

Common sense would also tell us that if they intended to remove all the effects of swooping, they would not have gone to the trouble of simply mentioning 2 out of 3. The overarching question remains: Why did they go to the trouble of stating exactly what a FMC loses when grounded, rather than simply saying "A FMC that is grounded is no longer Swooping"?

We can't answer that question and, as such, there will need to be a FAQ to clarify the issue, regardless of how 'clear' you may think the intention of the rule may be.

DoW

Dozer Blades wrote:You can't assault a swooping FMC - therefore its no longer swooping after failing a grounding test.

post hoc ergo proptor hoc


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:No, I do not "want or not want it." I do not care either way as long as the rules are followed.

Please do not accuse me of having a motive when clearly there is none. I look at the rules with an Impartial eye, please do not make accusations to the contrary.

The rules may imply that it looses Swooping, but unless they actually say that the MC looses Swooping then it does not loose Swooping, and the rules that go with it.

agree.

And, it's just as easy to say some people "want the grounded FMC to be hit at regular BS"

Who cares what the motivation behind a post is anyway... just talk about the rules. Parse the text. We'll figure it out.

And how hard do the folks at GW *FACEDESK* when they see threads like this?

Our shop plays it how it will be FAQ'd... your flying dudebro hit the dirt and is waddling his rear around because he can be assaulted and he crashed into the ground.

A S9 hit is the same as getting Lascannon'd in the face, short of eating a railgun shot. Game is more 'cinematic' and what not. Follow the bouncing Daemon Prince just sounds completely out of place and context. Like all the other really poorly fought arguments in 6E, use some common sense.

If I just buried a two story tall thing into the battefield, the only reason it'd be harder to hit is because half of it is underground. I'll be curious to see how tournaments vet this one.

And I'm a Daemon player. If my flyer gets tagged, and is grounded, it's now easier to shoot. Them's the breaks.

So here's the deal.

When grounded:

Never does it say you are not swooping anymore.

No where ever does it say that you lose hard to hit. This means that you do not. Simple as that.

No where does it say you cannot be grounded more than once.

For those of you that make the argument of it not making sense to be grounded more than once, a friend of mine brought up a decent way of explaining it in a fluffy kind of way. You get hit by multiple shots by several squads, you fail to correct your flying and compinsate for the hits and the more times you are hit the hard you hit the ground. A decent fluffly was to describe it.

TheKbob wrote:And how hard do the folks at GW *FACEDESK* when they see threads like this?

My *facedesk* would be pretty hard if anyone from GW emerged from their ivory tower and actually read a useful discussion by tabletop gamers regarding a poorly written rule.

How is it that a few gamers, with no official rule-making training, can come to the conclusion that writing "The FMC is no longer considered swooping in all regards" would have been better than cherry picking two of the rules to mention and leaving other aspects up for debate?

Common sense is an excellent way to figure out what the rules are probably supposed to be saying, but there's absolutely no reason why the rules can't be written properly in the first place.

The way this rule is written, the FMC is technically still hard to hit and can still be grounded again. I'm sure someone could cook up a valid explanation for this within the bounds of the 40k universe but it's really not necessary. That's what the rules say, silly as it may be.

DoW

The rule as written is fine. It's not the fault of GW that some people want to read more into the rule than is there. The term grounded is self explanatory. The rules do not state that a grounded FMC is still flying.

...Where does it say you are not swooping anymore?

I think the better question is where does it state the FMC is still flying? Ah - it doesn't. If it did then you could but it doesn't so you can't.

Dozer Blades wrote:The rule as written is fine. It's not the fault of GW that some people want to read more into the rule than is there. The term grounded is self explanatory. The rules do not state that a grounded FMC is still flying.

...Where does it say you are not swooping anymore?

I think the better question is where does it state the FMC is still flying? Ah - it doesn't. If it did then you could but it doesn't so you can't.

Your logic is backwards here. The state that the fmc is in is swooping, therefore it doesn't need to say it's still doing that, it needs to say it's no longer swooping in order to change it. This doesn't happen until your next movement phase.

The FMC must count as having fallen to the ground - that's quite clear. To say that it leaps back up into the skies is not.

Dozer Blades wrote:The FMC must count as having fallen to the ground - that's quite clear. To say that it leaps back up into the skies is not.

But it's not clear. It never changes state. You're trying to use your own logic to counter a writen rule and that doesn't work. You're trying to make it what you want. Whether it makes sense or not is irrelevant. We can't claim to know their intent behind every rule. This rule is writen as it is writen. It specifically states what you lose when the FMC is grounded, and no longer swooping is not there. Even if the intent was to no longer be swooping then it would have been MUCH easier to just say no longer swooping, but they didn't. They said you can be assault and lose jink. That's it. That's all that happens. No amount of logical argument can change what the rule states. If it gets FAQed then that's fine and I'll play it how it is FAQed.

I am interpreting the rule based upon how it's written - not how I would like it to read. I have a Flyrant in my Tyranid army... Your interpretation would be great however I'm of the opinion you are wrong. Like I said the term grounded is very specific.

You're right it is specific. It specifically has a rule that specifically applies certain conditions when certain conditions are met. To sum up, while flying, if you're hit, you roll the check, if you fail you're grounded, if you're grounded you take a Str9 hit, don't get jink, and the FMC can be assaulted that turn.

It does not say anything else. To assume more conditions are applied or removed is wrong. It is a clearly defined rule. You're assumption on the rule is based soley on your definition of grounded. I agree with you that the word grounded would make sense that you're no longer flying, but the rules do not agree with that. We must follow the rules otherwise there is no game.

You are simply adding to a rule certain conditions that do not exist in the rule.

The rules as written right now do not remove swooping as your mode of movement even after a failed grounding test, they just add grounded.

You're looking for the logic in this line of thinking and if that's what you need look at it this way. A creature is difficult to hit while it is moving quickly, now when it crashes to the ground it is moving just as quickly if not more so... just towards to ground. Multiple grounding tests all ow us to show the difference between a round of shooting taking a flying creature off balance and wounding itself on the way down. While multiple grounding tests represent a large amount of fire being directed at the creature, taking its wings out from under it and it crashing to the ground like a meteor.

From a reality perspective the army wouldn't be firing one at a time to see if it comes down, they are all going to be firing at the same time so they are all shooting a swooping creature.

If you're looking for the logic in the word grounding though, you're not going to find it as it is clearly just a word they threw in there because the test needed a name of some sort and that fit the theme.

Maybe it will get FAQ'd and changed, but until then just play your nids and enjoy the perk your tyrant gets in not being instantly killed for not having tyrant guard.

I would never play a rule intentionally wrong to gain an advantage. : (

Dozer Blades wrote:I would never play a rule intentionally wrong to gain an advantage. : (

Considering that 3 guardsmen rapiding firing have a 1 in 3 chance of doing a S9 no save hit is not an advantage.
With nothing better to shoot out, my mortar team grounded a flyrant.
If you've got spare squads sitting around, it's not all that hard to roll a six.

-Matt

Easy for most guard armies but not necessarily the case for other armies.

It's not better for any specific army. It's still easy enough to roll one six with any squad, which is all you need to force a grounding roll. On the other hand, you still have to hit a FMC with a 6 to wound it.

If there is a winner here it's the FMC. And let's be honest here... Nid need all the help they can get since it's pretty obvious GW hates the nid. The only other army that has enough FMC to matter is daemons, and they're not in great shape either.

Also you're not playing it wrong to gain an advantage if you stay swooping. You're playing it right, and it helps make flyrants usable this edition.

I am playing it right.

DogOfWar wrote:

TheKbob wrote:And how hard do the folks at GW *FACEDESK* when they see threads like this?

My *facedesk* would be pretty hard if anyone from GW emerged from their ivory tower and actually read a useful discussion by tabletop gamers regarding a poorly written rule.

And how hard to they *FACEDESK* when they realize how its their poorly written document causing all the confusion...

Don't malign the people on this thread trying to play using the rules instead of some game loosely based on the rules.

Dozer Blades wrote:I am playing it right.

No.



Funny how that works both ways, eh?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:I am playing it right.

No.



Funny how that works both ways, eh?

No, yes. Fixed that for you.

Dozer Blades wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:I am playing it right.

No.



Funny how that works both ways, eh?

No, yes. Fixed that for you.

There's no wiggle room here. The rule is defined and you're adding to it what you think it should be based on the English definition of grounded. This doesn't work.

Dozer Blades wrote:Grounded =/= Flying.

You have a rules quote that says this?

Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

DeathReaper wrote:Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

HoverBoy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

What you've missed is that you're being trolled.
Now quit feeding it.

No, I really think he just thinks the rule works that way.

HoverBoy wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Please quote it so we can see this information we missed.

What you've missed is that you're being trolled.
Now quit feeding it.

I have quoted the rules previously and they were disregarded based upon personal interpretation.

The rules for Grounded, tell you that you BECOME Grounded. From that point on the RAW, not me, refers to the Flying Monstrous Creature as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Not a Gliding Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, not a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is still Gliding, and not a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is still Swooping,. Just a

GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE.

The only people reading into the rules beyond what they say are the people insisting that a GFMC is still Swooping. You have absolutely no RAW support for a SGFMC nor any direction on how to play a GFMC that is still Swooping. None at all.

You have people keep shouting out permissive ruleset like a bunch of parrots when they have no idea what they are talking about;

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

In this case you are specifically told that you BECOME Grounded. Your argument that that declaration does not necessarily negate Swooping is then further debunked when the RAW no longer refers to you as a Swooping Fling Monstrous Creature, but a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. The rule for Grounded then goes on to specifically clarify when you get to move normally (Swooping or Gliding) which is on its next turn.

I also made the point that your argument for a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a fruitless argument because you will still not benefit from Hard to Hit. Hard to Hit is explicit in who it applies, Swooping Monstrous Creature. So even if you ignore the RAW that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creatue BECOMES a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and create your mythical SGFMC or GFMC that is still Swooping, Hard to Hit only applies to a SFMC.

Nice try at easter egging, rules lawyering, or just flat out making up rules, but RAW is against not only your argument, but also against your proposed advantage of being Hard to Hit while being Grounded.

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

When Does Swooping end?

It ends when the Rule say it ends, which is at the start of the MC's next movement phase.

To make it end at any other time, you need to have specific permission to no longer count as Swooping.

Where is that specific permission to no longer count as Swooping in the rules?

What page number?

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

It does tell you to be both. you are Swooping as per movement mode, and Grounded because of being hit and failing a test.

There is no permission to STOP the Swooping Status, so it is still Swooping.

Grounded Specifically tells you what other rules are in effect.

That is is.

That is how a permissive ruleset works.

You need something to say you are no longer Swooping. and there are no rules that say that until the MC's next movement phase.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Again, Wrong.

The RAW does say you are both. You are Swooping. You become Grounded. We are not told they are mutually exclusive and there is no rule conflict that would mandate they be so. We are not told to stop Swooping.

Therefor, there is no permission to STOP swooping. Permissive works both ways. If you are told to do something, you must also be told to stop doing it.

DeathReaper wrote:When Does Swooping end?

It ends when the Rule say it ends, which is at the start of the MC's next movement phase.

To make it end at any other time, you need to have specific permission to no longer count as Swooping.

Where is that specific permission to no longer count as Swooping in the rules?

What page number?

Under Grounded when the explicit RAW tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Before that you were a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and then you became a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. You are looking for permission NOT to be a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature when the very RAW specifcally tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping? You won't because it doesn't exist.

And both of you still can't even begin to address the fact that your whole reason for arguing for the Hard to Hit advantage is pointless because you still wont be able to use it per the RAW requirements of Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:When Does Swooping end?

It ends when the Rule say it ends, which is at the start of the MC's next movement phase.

To make it end at any other time, you need to have specific permission to no longer count as Swooping.

Where is that specific permission to no longer count as Swooping in the rules?

What page number?

Under Grounded when the explicit RAW tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Before that you were a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and then you became a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. You are looking for permission NOT to be a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature when the very RAW specifcally tells you that you become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping? You won't because it doesn't exist.

And both of you still can't even begin to address the fact that your whole reason for arguing for the Hard to Hit advantage is pointless because you still wont be able to use it per the RAW requirements of Hard to Hit.

You do not need permission to keep swooping. You have it when you are told to choose between Swooping or Gliding.


In order for this to change you need explicit instruction that you stop swooping.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn." P.49

Those are the only rules adjustments that the Grounded status adjusts.

Nowhere does it state that you are now Gliding, so you are still Swooping.

Grey Templar wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Again, Wrong.

The RAW does say you are both. You are Swooping. You become Grounded. We are not told they are mutually exclusive and there is no rule conflict that would mandate they be so. We are not told to stop Swooping.

Therefor, there is no permission to STOP swooping. Permissive works both ways. If you are told to do something, you must also be told to stop doing it.

And you have the same problem as DR.

The RAW says you are a Swooping Flying Monstrous creature. The RAW says you become Grounded and then specifically refers to you as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Now where in the Grounded rules does it say that you are still Swooping? Where in the Grounded rules does it say you count as Swoopong? Where in the Grounded rules does it refer to you as a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature? It doesn't one single time.

Once you become a Grounded Flying Monstrsous Creature you need specific permission to become a Swooping or Gliding Monstrous Creature which is exactly what the rules for Grounded does.

Also as with DR, keep ignoring the fact that your whole argument is pointless.

Grounded is not a Flight mode you can choose.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote: The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping?

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes Graph.

This details that they are Swooping until the start of their next turn.

Now, where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to be not a Swooping creature until the start of their next turn?

DeathReaper wrote:"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn." P.49

Those are the only rules adjustments that the Grounded status adjusts.

Nowhere does it state that you are now Gliding, so you are still Swooping.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote: The real test of a permissive rule test is where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to still be Swooping?

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes Graph.

This details that they are Swooping until the start of their next turn.

Now, where in the rules for Grounded, after becoming a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you find permission to be not a Swooping creature until the start of their next turn?

Those are not the rules for your mythical Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, those are the rules of what it means to be a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. You even have the duration given of being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature in that quote, specifically allowing you to move normally the next turn.

You still cannot point to any reference or permission on Grounded to still be Swooping and continue to ignore that your whole argument is pointless in regard to Hard to Hit.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the

RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Your point is point quite solid, but I do have a couple counter points.

1. There is nothing supporting the idea that you are no longer swooping other than the different name you're given. The two states of swooping and grounded have no mention of each other in either rule, as opposed to swooping and gliding. Nothing suggests that you can't be both. Since you must first be swooping to become grounded, and grounded does not specifically state that you are no longer swooping, you do not lose this state. You are not a swooping ground fmc and you suggest you would be. You are both a swooping fmc and a grounded fmc.

I have given reference.

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes graph.

This tells you how long you are in Swooping Flight mode.

This has a specific timeframe and nothing, short of the timeframe expiring, says you loose Swooping status.

Permission is needed to override the Swooping flight mode, and nothing in the Grounded rules say you are no longer swooping.

2. If in fact you are no longer swooping, why would they specifically state that 2 special rules that are part of swooping are removed, but omit others from the removal?

Sothas wrote:2. If in fact you are no longer swooping, why would they specifically state that 2 special rules that are part of swooping are removed, but omit others from the removal?

Because the Jink USR applies "until the start of the next movement phase", so removing the Swooping State would leave it in place (since it's triggered by Dive).

Testify wrote:

Sothas wrote:2. If in fact you are no longer swooping, why would they specifically state that 2 special rules that are part of swooping are removed, but omit others from the removal?

Because the Jink USR applies "until the start of the next movement phase", so removing the Swooping State would leave it in place (since it's triggered by Dive).

And the same logic applies to Swooping.

Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

DeathReaper wrote:
Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

Sothas wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

"It doesn't say Swooping ends so it doesn't" is exactly the same as "It doesn't say I can't so I can".

Wrong, its the exact opposite.

It doesn't say it ends, therefore it doesn't. Because its a permissive ruleset.

The rule specifically tells you that you become Grounded. It specifically tells you that you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Being a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature makes you NOT a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, because the

RAW does not tell you to be both. That is how a permissive ruleset works.

Seriously, I am not making up the vernacular that I am using. This is the RAW of the rule. Give me the RAW that you can find that names your mythical unit that is still Swooping yet Grounded.

Your point is point quite solid, but I do have a couple counter points.

1. There is nothing supporting the idea that you are no longer swooping other than the different name you're given. The two states of swooping and grounded have no mention of each other in either rule, as opposed to swooping and gliding. Nothing suggests that you can't be both. Since you must first be swooping to become grounded, and grounded does not specifically state that you are no longer swooping, you do not lose this state. You are not a swooping ground fmc and you suggest you would be. You are both a swooping fmc and a grounded fmc.

DeathReaper wrote:I have given reference.

Page 49 Left Column, Changing Flight modes graph.

This tells you how long you are in Swooping Flight mode.

This has a specific timeframe and nothing, short of the timeframe expiring, says you loose Swooping status.

Permission is needed to override the Swooping flight mode, and nothing in the Grounded rules say you are no longer swooping.

Since the answer relates to both of you,

Youare told to choose which flight mode until the next turn, Swooping in this case, and are then referred specifically to a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. This vernacular is then used exclusively tnroughout the special rules to describe what and what not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature can and cannot do. The RAW is therefore,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Once you hit the rules for Grounded, you are specifically told that you become Grounded and from then on are referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature with rules specific to being Grounded. So therefore,

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now while you want to keep pointing to choosing a flight mode lasts until the next movement turn, you are given a specific set of circumstances that can occur whose result is then forcing you to change from being a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature (thus Swooping) and become a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature (thus Grounded). The RAW is explicit in this change in the rules for Grounded with zero allowance given to remain Swooping or Gliding in any form.

The way the rules are written is not that you are either Swooping, Gliding, or Grounded. The rules are laid out explicitly that you are either Swooping or Gliding (until next turn), unless you are Grounded. That is why they specifically refer to a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature and a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and do not reference anywhere being a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature or any other imagined hybrid.

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

They do, they just don't use those exact words.

Exact words are needed in a permissive ruleset.

You are making assumptions to their thought process in writingthe rules. I'm not saying your assumption is wrong, I'm saying that it could be wrong and that your "facts" about "raw" are just assumptions. The RAW never removes swooping it just adds additional rules that happen to remove some other rules.

OK. Good job. You both make valid argument. Now lets all agree to disagree, and maybe when GW finally gets around to releasing a rulebook FAQ (sometime next year probably), we can all go back to arguing because it is not answered.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

And the "crashing down to the ground" part of that line is fluff since it does not define anything that is truly definable in the game without using speculative interpretation.

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

Then keep reading the rule where it tells you that you become Grounded and are then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Per the RAW,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now where in the rules for Grounded are you given allowance to remain Swooping?

Just to note, it has been more then a few posts that every single person for a imagined Swooping/Grounded hybrid has not been able to address that their argument is pointless when it comes to Hard to Hit.

If failing a grounding test removes swooping and its benefits, why did they need to spell out "and may be assaulted"?

The only thing preventing a FMC from being assaulted is swooping status. They went out of their way to remove 2 of the 3 benefits of swooping specifically, but never specifically said "no longer swooping" or "no longer hard to hit".

If they intended Grounding to override Swooping fully and completely, there were many opportunities to do it with much clearer wording. Something like "unless grounded, a FMC is hard to hit". Or "a grounded FMC loses swooping status and all benefits from".

The "and can be assaulted" statement implies to me "...despite retaining swooping status".

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

Then keep reading the rule where it tells you that you become Grounded and are then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Per the RAW,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now where in the rules for Grounded are you given allowance to remain Swooping?

Just to note, it has been more then a few posts that every single person for a imagined Swooping/Grounded hybrid has not been able to address that their argument is pointless when it comes to Hard to Hit.

Except you've seemly ignored what I've said. You are correct that when grounded you are a grounded fmc. And when swooping you are a swooping fmc. But never in and sentence, paragraph, or phrasing of any time on any page of any book or fAQ does it say that you cannot be both. You say that it has to say you keep it when in fact this is backwards. The state the fmc is in is swooping and thus the rules must say you are no longer swooping. It is that simple grounded does not state it removes swooping and therefore does not.

hyv3mynd wrote:If failing a grounding test removes swooping and its benefits, why did they need to spell out "and may be assaulted"?

The only thing preventing a FMC from being assaulted is swooping status. They went out of their way to remove 2 of the 3 benefits of swooping specifically, but never specifically said "no longer swooping" or "no longer hard to hit".

If they intended Grounding to override Swooping fully and completely, there were many opportunities to do it with much clearer wording. Something like "unless grounded, a FMC is hard to hit". Or "a grounded FMC loses swooping status and all benefits from".

The "and can be assaulted" statement implies to me "...despite retaining swooping status".

You have formed a conclusion and are searching for proof which isn't how it works.

The rule allowing you to assault and losing a Jink save (if it had it) are not rules for an imagined Swooping/Ground hybrid. They are the rules for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, that is it. That is the RAW. You do not need to be specifically told that you are not Swooping when the rule specifically tells you that you are no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, which is does in Grounded. You cannot be Swooping if you are no longer a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.

Sothas wrote:

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:

Testify wrote:"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

I don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, because the rules do not say that it is no longer swooping.

Then keep reading the rule where it tells you that you become Grounded and are then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. Per the RAW,

Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature = Swooping

Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature = Grounded

Now where in the rules for Grounded are you given allowance to remain Swooping?

Just to note, it has been more then a few posts that every single person for a imagined Swooping/Grounded hybrid has not been able to address that their argument is pointless when it comes to Hard to Hit.

Except you've seemly ignored what I've said. You are correct that when grounded you are a grounded fmc. And when swooping you are a swooping fmc. But never in and sentence, paragraph, or phrasing of any time on any page of any book or fAQ does it say that you cannot be both. You say that it has to say you keep it when in fact this is backwards. The state the fmc is in is swooping and thus the rules must say you are no longer swooping. It is that simple grounded does not state it removes swooping and therefore does not.

Dingdingdingdingding!! We have a winner!!

Permissive ruleset, ie, you have absolutely zero permission to be both. You are either a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature or a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, you have zero permission to be both or a hybrid of both.

Thanks for killing your own argument.

No. Lol. Your argument for this is backwards. You're already swooping. Grounding never states swooping is removed, thus it is not. My mind is literally boggled on how you have turned this so backwards.

Sothas wrote:No. Lol. Your argument for this is backwards. You're already swooping. Grounding never states swooping is removed, thus it is not. My mind is literally boggled on how you have turned this so backwards.

You are Swooping, thus a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. The RAW tell you that you BECOME Grounded, thus a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

Now where in Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature do you see the word Swooping? Where in the entire rules for Grounded do you even see the word, Swooping?

You want to try and imply that Swooping is still present yet the RAW does not support a Swooping/Grounded hybrid, the RAW does not contain a single reference to Swooping in the Grounded rules, and lastly the rules for Grounded go specifically go out of their way to change you from a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature with its own set of rules for being Grounded and the specific permission as to when you can go back to being either Swooping or Gliding.

You have zero RAW to back up your premise.

That is my point. It never says swooping. You don't lose swooping and you don't lose hard to hit. The only time in the whole book that it says you are not swooping is when you choose to glide in the movement phase. The permissive rule argument that you are giving is backwards. You are swooping and need permission to not be swooping. The fmc is grounded it applies the ground rule. This rule never says that the fmc is no longer swooping and therefore is still subject to ALL swooping rules. Additionally, it says certain rules that swooping applies are removed by the grounded rule, but these are specific rules granted by swooping but not swooping its self. Therefore swooping is never removed and still applies all if its rules with the exception of those specifically mentioned in the grounded rule

The way I read it, there are two states FMC can be in, gliding and swooping. Being grounded in almost like a subset of swooping. You are a grounded swooping FMC so you loose XYZ.

If the rules said you become grounded and loose swooping that would be something else entirely.

Swooping and Gliding are mutually exclusive, the rules say you are one or the other. Swooping and grounded are never said to be mutually exclusive.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

If you are interpreting the rule you are, by definition, moving beyond the RAW and into your own, personal interpretation. That's fine if the RAW breaks the game, but if the RAW is clear and does not violate any other rules then you must assume it is valid until a FAQ or Errata comes out to correct it.

Long story short, no matter what people *think* or *interpret* as what "grounded" means, it means exactly as it says in the book and nothing more.

Those who are arguing that a FMC is still Hard to Hit are not "grasping at straws", it is quite the opposite. The ones who are saying it loses that benefit are the ones who have no basis in the rules whatsoever. I personally think it makes much more sense for a Swooping FMC that becomes Grounded to no longer be considered Swooping. The rules do not say that so we must wait for a FAQ for this to be true.

DoW

This is really obvious and only one way really makes sense taking all related rules into consideration.

Can a bird, plane or parachuting human swoop or glide after it has come crashing to the ground and is grounded? No.

Hard to Hit doesn't do anything if you are shooting with Skyfire. If you are Grounded, must you be shot with Skyfire? No.

If your Grounded model was still swooping or gliding it could Dive again, however grounded models only regain Jink "if it Dives later in the game". This assumes you've lost the benefits of swooping by bring grounded. I.E. >>> it doesn't actually state you can't Dive after being grounded.

I wouldn't be surprised if GW ignores this one altogether and does not FAQ it. There's Flying (swooping, gliding, soaring, floating) and there's Grounded. They are opposites. Ask a child. Literally ask a child and it will be so painfully obviously why GW doesn't explain this. I don't mean that to be rude. It would be insulting for GW to explain that something that is Grounded is no longer flying as if we don't understand this simple concept.

=====

Hello again DakkaDakka! Here I am back after getting a feel for the 6th rules. Nice to see lots of familiar names still here.

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Swooping applies "until the start of the next movement phase" so there needs to be a rule stating that it goes away, if no rule is cited, then it keeps its Swooping status. (Since its triggered by choosing a Flight Mode).

"The beast comes crashing down to the ground...and becomes Grounded".
If you don't interpret that to mean that it is no longer Swooping, so be it.

If you are interpreting the rule you are, by definition, moving beyond the RAW and into your own, personal interpretation. That's fine if the RAW breaks the game, but if the RAW is clear and does not violate any other rules then you must assume it is valid until a FAQ or Errata comes out to correct it.

Long story short, no matter what people *think* or *interpret* as what "grounded" means, it means exactly as it says in the book and nothing more.

Those who are arguing that a FMC is still Hard to Hit are not "grasping at straws", it is quite the opposite. The ones who are saying it loses that benefit are the ones who have no basis in the rules whatsoever. I personally think it makes much more sense for a Swooping FMC that becomes Grounded to no longer be considered Swooping. The rules do not say that so we must wait for a FAQ for this to be true.

DoW

You completely fail at RAW.

Hard to Hit:

A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target can only be resolved as Snap Shots unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule (see page 42). Template, Blast, and Large Blast Weapons cannot hit Swooping models.

Grounded Tests:
<snip>
If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it), but can move normally in its next turn.

To fulfill the requirements of Hard to Hit, you must be a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, nothing more, nothing less. When Grounded, you are a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. By all means, try and weasel your way out of this one which I have been pressing many others to try and address this whole time. Even if you take the stance of Deathreaper and fall on the, "nothing says I can't be both types, so I can" argument fallacy, Hard to Hit only allows you to be one, not the imaginary hybrid.

Nemesor Dave wrote:A bunch of stuff

Ad hominem attacks aside, you haven't really added anything new to the discussion. People have been beating the 'interpretation' argument to death for 4 pages now.

Attributing common sense to a 40k rules discussion isn't usually very useful. It's an abstraction of a fictional universe — common sense isn't really part of the equation.

Ask a child how many inches an 8 foot tall armored killing machine should move in a single turn? Or how about psychic and daemonic powers? It's just silly.

If you can show us a rule that states how a FMC cannot be swooping AND grounded at the same time —within the confines of the rules and not attributing 'common sense'— then I would gladly agree with you and change my viewpoint.

DoW

So those who say that a Grounded FMC is different from a Swooping FMC are basically saying that the grounded rule is just extra text GW decided they needed to add?

If they are truly different things then why say it loses jink and can be assaulted as neither of these things are something the Grounded FMC had in the first place. Why remove a rule from a model that it does not have?

I think this mat become the next overflow thread.

If I walked to my local airstrip and asked a friend if a pilot was flying today, and he replied "he is grounded", I would be seen as an epic moron if I asked "so is he still flying?".

Why? Because we all know grounded =\= flying (or gliding, or swooping). It would be as silly to demand of GW that they define stopped as meaning "not moving". We know what the word means and the designers expect us to use solid definitions in rule interpretation.

DogOfWar wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:A bunch of stuff

Ad hominem attacks aside, you haven't really added anything new to the discussion. People have been beating the 'interpretation' argument to death for 4 pages now.

Attributing common sense to a 40k rules discussion isn't usually very useful. It's an abstraction of a fictional universe — common sense isn't really part of the equation.

Ask a child how many inches an 8 foot tall armored killing machine should move in a single turn? Or how about psychic and daemonic powers? It's just silly.

If you can show us a rule that states how a FMC cannot be swooping AND grounded at the same time —within the confines of the rules and not attributing 'common sense'— then I would gladly agree with you and change my viewpoint.

DoW

Show me where after a flyer that "Crash and Burn's" and it is destroyed - where the BRB says the flyer is not allowed to come back on the board. But indeed apparently this rule comes into effect:

"It's quite likely that a Flyer making a Zoom move will leave
the board, either deliberately or by accident. If this happens,
the Flyer is said to have left combat airspace - it then enters
Ongoing Reserves (see page 125)."

In fact, you interpret the rules all the time. It is quite RAW. Here it is, and I quote. "Grounded". Grounded means not flying. Swooping is flying and so is gliding. I'm sure if you asked the authors of the BRB they would tell you the same thing.

Now you seem to have no problem interpreting the former, and yet have trouble with the latter. For that I have no explanation.

Here is my take on the situation. First lets look up the definition of the word swooping since the only thing that keeps the arguement that swooping is taken away is RAI:

Swooping:
1. The act of sweeping through the air, as a bird or a bat, especially down upon prey.
2. The act of coming down upon something in a sudden, swift attack.

I can see this as interpreted realistically in two ways that could still allow the monstrous creature to still be "swooping" by literal definition.

A. The creature's wing gets shot by the bullet, and it starts plummeting towards the ground. Considering flyers are suppose to be at flying altitude, the thing is falling out of the sky while everyone else on the field continues to shoot at it's falling body. SLAM! It hits the ground and takes it's Str 9 hit, now the shooting phase is over. Since it has just hit the ground, someone could nearby jump on the split second before the creature takes off again to assault it.

B. The creature's wing gets shot by the bullet, and it plummets to the ground. SLAM! It his the ground and take's it's Str 9 hit, than gets up from just hitting the ground and getting hurt. He is still a creature with wings, and while he is not at flying altitude he gusts his wings and flies evasive maneuvers just above the ground with his wings. You can imagine this by any bird you've seen eating seed off the ground or hunting a small critter. They "jump" around at incredibly fast speeds, land, and take off again. There is nothing stopping the MC from doing this, and as such still being incredibly hard to hit. However, since it would take the monstrous creature a bit to gain his altitude again he is now vulnerable to someone running up, jumping on him, and assaulting him.

Both of these are reasonable understandings of what is going on with a "swooping" creature that has been grounded. Both of them can, RAI and logically, support keeping hard to hit when being grounded from a shot. RAW means that you keep Hard to Hit, and while you can purpose scenarios that would mean you aren't flying anymore I simply was able to purpose a scenario where you were still flying just not in the traditional "maintaining flight" sense. Since RAW and logic can come to the same conclusion on this issue, I learn towards keeping Hard to Hit.

Lobukia wrote:I think this mat become the next overflow thread.

If I walked to my local airstrip and asked a friend if a pilot was flying today, and he replied "he is grounded", I would be seen as an epic moron if I asked "so is he still flying?".

Why? Because we all know grounded =\= flying (or gliding, or swooping). It would be as silly to demand of GW that they define stopped as meaning "not moving". We know what the word means and the designers expect us to use solid definitions in rule interpretation.

I would agree with you completely if they had said a FMC that fails a grounding test is grounded and left it at that, but since they went so far as to remove certain rules specifically but not others, we have to assume they had planned it this way and specifically pointing out one rule but not another forces us to keep the rule unless it is specifically removed.

You are using the logical real world application of the word "grounded" and trying to apply it to rules which just isn't the case.

DogOfWar wrote:If you are interpreting the rule you are, by definition, moving beyond the RAW and into your own, personal interpretation. That's fine if the RAW breaks the game, but if the RAW is clear and does not violate any other rules then you must assume it is valid until a FAQ or Errata comes out to correct it.

Long story short, no matter what people *think* or *interpret* as what "grounded" means, it means exactly as it says in the book and nothing more.

Those who are arguing that a FMC is still Hard to Hit are not "grasping at straws", it is quite the opposite. The ones who are saying it loses that benefit are the ones who have no basis in the rules whatsoever. I personally think it makes much more sense for a Swooping FMC that becomes Grounded to no longer be considered Swooping. The rules do not say that so we must wait for a FAQ for this to be true.

DoW

in·ter·pret/inˈtərprit/
Verb:
Explain the meaning of (information, words, or actions): "interpret the evidence".

You seem to be confusing the word "interpret" with the word "infer".
Everyone interprets the rules. When you interpret them, you are assuming that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Swoop mode - this is in spite of any evidence whatsoever in the book.
The rulebook implicitly states that the FMC is a Grounded FMC. For some reason, you seem to think that this stacks with Swoop, when nothing in the rulebook says anything of the sort.
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please. This is a discussion about what's written in the book, nothing more.

English definition of the name of a rule does not, can not, and will not ever change what the rules say unless otherwise stated to be so.

Fluff != rules (except with plasma syphon where the rules specifically state fluff = rules).

The fluff part is that it comes crashing to the ground and the rules part is "and becomes grounded" because we have a definition of the term "grounded". We can not assume anything about the rule as it was written. To start making assumptions on one rule and calling that assumption the rule will end up breaking the game.

Here's a great example of RAI failing... Eldar Shadowseer, Veil of Tears.

The FAQ replaces the second and third sentences with the ability to gain shround and stealth. However, it is quite obvious that the intent was to make it the second and third sentences of the second paragraph. Because of this failure in the FAQ, the eldar shadowseer now requires you to roll to spot AND gives the squad stealth and shroud. The RAW is just that, and must be followed, even if it is plainly obvious RAI is something different.

In this case, it is NOT plainly obvious what RAI is, because it is entirely possible they intended for the FMC to just hit the ground harder after taking multiple hits (multiple grounding rolls). Perhaps the FMC is on it's way down (still flying so has hard to hit) but cannot manouver anymore because it's falling (no more jink). There are several ways to interpret the RAI. Here, the RAW is clearly defined. RAI cannot be used in 99.9% of situations withs rules because we cannot actually KNOW what the intent was on a rule, we can only speculate. Because of this we must adhere to the exact letter of the law which we call RAW. And RAW swooping is NOT removed from the model. It ONLY gains grounded and does not specify if swooping stays or goes. Since the model MUST be swooping, and grounded DOES NOT remove swooping then swooping IS NOT removed.

I don't know how else to spell this out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote: you are assuming that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Swoop mode - this is in spite of any evidence whatsoever in the book.
The rulebook implicitly states that the FMC is a Grounded FMC. For some reason, you seem to think that this stacks with Swoop, when nothing in the rulebook says anything of the sort.
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please. This is a discussion about what's written in the book, nothing more.

There is no assumption. The rules for swooping SPECIFICALLY and without any doubt tell us that swooping remains in effect until your next movement phase. By this, and by the fact that everyone agrees the rules are permisive, in order to end swooping the rules must SPECIFICALLY state that the FMC stops swooping. You are using permisive rules backwards when saying that it says it has to stay. In fact IT DOES state swooping stays until your next movement phase. It says that. We all agree. So RAW says the FMC is swooping until your next movement phase. Swooping stays. Do I need to say that again? Ok I won't. Now we move on.

A permisive ruleset means two things.

1. In order for the unit/model/what have you, to be granted an ability or have the ability to do something, it has to say specifically that it can do that thing and it does get that thing.

2. In order for a granted ability, condition, modifier, ect... to be removed it must specifically state that ability is removed.

With this in mind. Please show me in the book where ANYTHING (at this point I don't care what it is) other than starting your next movement phase, states that swooping is removed, the FMC is no longer swooping, or some varient of the word swooping coupled with the negation of it. Simply calling it something else DOES NOT remove something else it already is without saying that it is removed with the exact wording.

If the FMC was still in the flight mode after being grounded the rules would say so. They don't so it doesn't work that way and it's just that simple.

Dozer Blades wrote:If the FMC was still in the flight mode after being grounded the rules would say so. They don't so it doesn't work that way and it's just that simple.

Backwards logic


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm swooping but then I shoot my gun, I'm now shooting. I'm not swooping anymore because it doesn't say that I am.

^Your logic.

Here's some other interesting info on the actual format of the page (49).

Flying Monstrous Creatures is the page title in the largest font.

The next largest font is for 5 subtitles:
Flight Modes
Deployment
Gliding
Swooping
Special Rules

The third largest font is for 6 subtitles of the above subtitles:
Changing Flight Mode
Swooping Hunters
Hard to Hit
Leaving Combat Airspace
Dive
Grounded Tests*

The term "Grounded Monstrous Creature" doesn't appear until the last paragraph of the third smallest (6th) subtitle.

Since it did not receive equal billing to the "Gliding", "Swooping", or "Special Rules" subtitles, we can infer that its state does not cancel out gliding or swooping, or create a third state.

Since "grounded monstrous creature" doesn't occur until the 5th subtitle under the LARGER "swooping" title, we can infer that the "grounded monstrous creature" is a modifier of "swooping monstrous creature", and does not replace it or become mutually exclusive.

Since "a grounded monstrous creature can be charged in the following assault phase and loses the jink special rule" does not remove or replace swooping status or the hard to hit special rule as they specifically noted which benefits it did lose.

I do agree the wording is the worst thing ever. Right up there with "emplaced weapons" being TOTALLY DIFFERENT from "weapon emplacements".

Verbage aside, I think the formatting of the page as a whole indicates grounded is a modified state of swooping that removes two specifically mentioned benefits, but not all of them.

Testify wrote:
Everyone interprets the rules. When you interpret them, you are assuming that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Swoop mode - this is in spite of any evidence whatsoever in the book.
The rulebook implicitly states that the FMC is a Grounded FMC. For some reason, you seem to think that this stacks with Swoop, when nothing in the rulebook says anything of the sort.
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please. This is a discussion about what's written in the book, nothing more.

1) Grounded is very specifically described. It does not replace, nor remove Swooping. In fact, GW went as far as to explicitly mention the two parts of Swooping that are negated. (I would rather go with what the rules explicitly say, rather than what you can implicitly make up.)

2) You do not need to 'retain' Swoop. You must either choose to Glide, or have it be removed from your model via another means. The rules for Grounding do not remove the rules for Swooping, merely a subset thereof.

3) Stacking has nothing to do with it. Does Fearless say it stacks with Fleet? If a model becomes Pinned, do they lose Feel no Pain?

4) What are you talking about with regards to common sense? Did you actually read my post? I very clearly stated that common sense is NOT welcome in a discussion of RAW as it has no basis in the rules. Were you intending to respond to someone else perhaps?

For those saying —or implying, since evidently we have an English professor present— "Errmagerrd I would never play you!" Keep in mind, HYWPI is NOT the same as RAW. This is a RAW discussion.

DoW

I played a game versus Tyranids with double Flyrant today. My opponent did not even know about this shennigan and I told him to go ahead and use even though he said it felt really dirty. Turn 2 I shot them both down and off the table - its really not all that great for Nidz in my opinion. It is broken for Tzneetch flying circus though. We both agreed we won't tell anyone else in our local gaming circles.

I am thinking GW will FAQ this one. Should be very interesting if they do.

Despite all the blustering of RAW this and RAW that, not a single one of you has shown any RAW to support your imaginary hybrid of a Swooping and Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

1. Show me the permission to first create a hybrid. DeathReaper outed himself when he said he could not find anywhere that did not allow a FMC to be both, so he could, which flies right in the face of a permissive rule set.

2. Show me the rules and directions to then use said hybrid. There is absolutely no mention of a hybrid Swooping/Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature anywhere, so please direct me that entry.

3. Show me how said hybrid is allowed to fulfill the requirement of Hard to Hit.

As much as people want to point to the first paragraph telling you that a flight mode lasts until the end of the turn, it is specifically countered by the last sentence of Grounded which tells you that you will be able to move normally on its next turn. That alone crushes that argument without even needing to point out that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES a Grounded Monstrous Creature (notice the distinct lack of Swooping).

And for the lastl damn time, losing a Jink save (if it had one) and being able to be assaulted are NOT the rules for a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature that has been Grounded!! They are specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is titled under the rule of Grounded Tests and the beginning of the damn sentece even says,

"A GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it)."

If you keep insisting otherwise, there is no other way of putting it, but you are lying. The RAW is directly contradicting you and yet you are insisting that you are right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy crapola, I was just going over the Grounded Tests rules again and yet another wrench gets tossed into the creation of an imaginary hybrid!

I stand corrected, Swooping is mentioned in the Grounded Tests section. It is used in the very first sentence of the rule when it clarifies what happens if a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a Shooting attack. It takes a Grounded test.

Now when it fails, that is specifically when the RAW tells you that it becomes Grounded and from then on refers it to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. For those of you keeping track, that is when you lose Swooping.

You started as a FMC that is Swooping, you suffered hits from a Shooting attack, and you became a GFMC. Notice the distinct lack of, ".....that is Swooping" that was present prior to suffering hits from a shooting attack and failing a Grounded test. It was right there, post failed Grounded test it is gone.

Coffin meet the multitude of other nails on this thread.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Despite all the blustering of RAW this and RAW that, not a single one of you has shown any RAW to support your imaginary hybrid of a Swooping and Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

1. Show me the permission to first create a hybrid. DeathReaper outed himself when he said he could not find anywhere that did not allow a FMC to be both, so he could, which flies right in the face of a permissive rule set.

2. Show me the rules and directions to then use said hybrid. There is absolutely no mention of a hybrid Swooping/Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature anywhere, so please direct me that entry.

3. Show me how said hybrid is allowed to fulfill the requirement of Hard to Hit.

As much as people want to point to the first paragraph telling you that a flight mode lasts until the end of the turn, it is specifically countered by the last sentence of Grounded which tells you that you will be able to move normally on its next turn. That alone crushes that argument without even needing to point out that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES a Grounded Monstrous Creature (notice the distinct lack of Swooping).

And for the lastl damn time, losing a Jink save (if it had one) and being able to be assaulted are NOT the rules for a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature that has been Grounded!! They are specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is titled under the rule of Grounded Tests and the beginning of the damn sentece even says,

"A GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it)."

If you keep insisting otherwise, there is no other way of putting it, but you are lying. The RAW is directly contradicting you and yet you are insisting that you are right.

Another thing missing from this discussion is losing the ability to Dive.

If the FMC still is Swooping, then it can still Dive and gains jink back???

So your Flying Monsterous Creature is flying 100 meters in the sky, minding his own business when he gets shot out of the sky. "The beast comes
crashing down to the ground and is Grounded". Now he's so low he can get hit in close combat and can't jink out of the way of additional shots. But I'm supposed to believe he's still swooping and can Dive (perhaps underground?) and gain the Jink special rule if he is shot at again.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:Despite all the blustering of RAW this and RAW that, not a single one of you has shown any RAW to support your imaginary hybrid of a Swooping and Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

1. Show me the permission to first create a hybrid. DeathReaper outed himself when he said he could not find anywhere that did not allow a FMC to be both, so he could, which flies right in the face of a permissive rule set.

I did not say that did i?

Tell me, what Flight Mode has a Grounded MC that moved 24 inches used in his movement phase Gliding or Swooping?

after you answer, when do the rules state that the movement mode ends?

2. Show me the rules and directions to then use said hybrid. There is absolutely no mention of a hybrid Swooping/Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature anywhere, so please direct me that entry.

Swooping is a Flight Mode. Grounded is not, your question is moot.

3. Show me how said hybrid is allowed to fulfill the requirement of Hard to Hit.

Again Moot.

As much as people want to point to the first paragraph telling you that a flight mode lasts until the end of the turn, it is specifically countered by the last sentence of Grounded which tells you that you will be able to move normally on its next turn. That alone crushes that argument without even needing to point out that a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature BECOMES a Grounded Monstrous Creature (notice the distinct lack of Swooping).

It does not say it Loses Swooping it says it becomes grounded, Grounded is not a movement mode, so it is either Swooping or Gliding until its next turn. the part about moving normally notes that you are not stuck in Swooping mode,

I was just going over the Grounded Tests rules again and yet another wrench gets tossed into the creation of an imaginary hybrid!

I stand corrected, Swooping is mentioned in the Grounded Tests section. It is used in the very first sentence of the rule when it clarifies what happens if a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping suffers one or more hits from a Shooting attack. It takes a Grounded test.

Now when it fails, that is specifically when the RAW tells you that it becomes Grounded and from then on refers it to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. For those of you keeping track, that is when you lose Swooping

It does not say it loses Swooping in the graph you mention.


In all reality it will probably be FAQed to no longer be swooping, and I will probably play it whatever way my opponent wants too, as there are benefits and drawbacks of both flight modes.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:"A GROUNDED FLYING MONSTROUS CREATURE can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule (if it had it)."

If you keep insisting otherwise, there is no other way of putting it, but you are lying. The RAW is directly contradicting you and yet you are insisting that you are right.

I think you need to calm down. No one is 'lying' here. You are simply mistaken in your interpretation of the rules.

You only need to prove one thing. Namely that Swooping ends, is replaced, or the granted effects are removed upon Grounding. You have quoted the text that clearly shows a Swooping FMC that has been Grounded loses the immunity to assault AND loses the Jink rule. No-one is arguing that fact.

Please show me which page it says that A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature also loses Hard to Hit or that it is no longer Swooping. If you cannot, then you are not basing your argument on RAW at all. It really is as simple as that.

We have presented our case and you have not refuted it with any actual rules. Sorry but there isn't really an argument here if you don't have any new evidence to bring to light.

If it makes it easier to see our point of view, imagine a unit with Feel no Pain is forced to take a Pinning test, fails, and Goes to Ground. I argue that they should lose Feel no Pain as a result of Going to Ground. Prove me wrong.

DoW

My head is getting dizzy from reading this.

When I first read the rules, I was of the camp that once grounded, you lose hard to hit. But, after further reading and comments on YMDC, I have conceded that, as the way the rules are written now, if you fail a grounding test, you still remain hard to hit and must continue to take grounding tests.

Yes. This flies in the face of common sense, but this are GW rules we are talking about. Not actual physics, reality, or anything else.

What completely convinced me that you remain hard to hit is when GW explicitly removed the jink save and allowed a grounded FMC to be assaulted. This seems pretty intentional (or complete incompetence by GW rules writers) that some of the perks of swooping remained. As has been stated numerous times, why did GW specifically remove certain abilities but not others? If the FMC's status changed completely, the rules could have been written such as:

a. The monster comes crashing to the ground. Treat the FMC as gliding until its next movement phase where it may choose to move normally.

b. The monster comes crashing to the ground. Treat as a regular monstrous creature for the remainder of this turn.

Again, when I run or play against FMCs, I clarify up front how they want to play it. (much like deffrollas and vehicles before GW FAQ'd it). I could care less which way it is played as long as it is consistent throughout the game. Everyone I have played against treats a Grounded FMC as gliding (i.e. hit as normal, can be assaulted, etc.). If they wanted to retain hard to hit, that is fine. But then they are going to continue to take grounding tests as well.

You can stop arguing now, it just goes round in circles and everyone is set in his way until the FAQ comes out.

For what it's worth my two cent: I only play Tyranids, and in my eyes it's obvious that GW meant that a Grounded MC lose Swooping and Hard to Hit until its next movement phase. They just failed to mention it explicitly.

When you are sitting on your @ss you aren't soaring through the sky.

Do I feel it's a kick against Tyranids, unwarranted and unbalanced? Yes. Fliers never lose Hard to Hit, and it makes no sense a FMC would crash to the ground by mere hits, bouncing harmlessly from their carapace, or even searchlights 'OMG A FLASHLIGHT HIT ME IN THE BACK, AAAAHHH I'M GOING DOOOWN!'

The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Green is Best! wrote:
When I first read the rules, I was of the camp that once grounded, you lose hard to hit. But, after further reading and comments on YMDC, I have conceded that, as the way the rules are written now, if you fail a grounding test, you still remain hard to hit and must continue to take grounding tests.

You don't. You've already assumed that GW have written the rules wrong and that's clouding your judgement.
Read the paragraphs about Grounded again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Testify wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

Because Fateweaver/LOCs would become truely invincable. At least now if you shower them with lasguns or bolt pistols, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll come down. But if you have to cause an unsaved wound you're looking at 6s to hit, wounding Toughness6, then a re-rollable 3++ invulnerable save .

Testify wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

Because Fateweaver/LOCs would become truely invincable. At least now if you shower them with lasguns or bolt pistols, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll come down. But if you have to cause an unsaved wound you're looking at 6s to hit, wounding Toughness6, then a re-rollable 3++ invulnerable save .

Point taken. I was looking from only a tyranid perspective - no re-rollable 3++ saves for us. :( Best we can do is 3+ armor followed by 5+ feel no pain.

Testify wrote:You don't. You've already assumed that GW have written the rules wrong and that's clouding your judgement.
Read the paragraphs about Grounded again.

I have read the rules and, while I disagree with them, concede that AS WRITTEN, that if I am swooping and fail a grounding test, I lose my jink save, can be assaulted, and take a STR 9 hit with no armor save. I see nothing that removes hard to hit. Nothing (despite the fact I do indeed play it this way, nothing removes hard to hit). And, as they went out of their way to make it this way, I have to assume that a Grounded FMC is still hard to hit and continues to take grounding tests. Show me anything in the brb that states otherwise. As I read it, Swooping gives you X, Y, and Z. If you fail a grounding test, it removes Y & Z, so I have to assume X still applies.

The follow up question is, can a FMC that is locked in assault declare itself swooping on its following movement phase? This would immediately remove it from CC (as swooping FMCs cannot be assaulted) and allow it to fly away.

Green is Best! wrote:The follow up question is, can a FMC that is locked in assault declare itself swooping on its following movement phase? This would immediately remove it from CC (as swooping FMCs cannot be assaulted) and allow it to fly away.

Being assaulted and being locked in combat are two different things, there is no permission (again that word) for it to ignore being locked in combat.

Green is Best! wrote:

Testify wrote:You don't. You've already assumed that GW have written the rules wrong and that's clouding your judgement.
Read the paragraphs about Grounded again.

I have read the rules and, while I disagree with them, concede that AS WRITTEN, that if I am swooping and fail a grounding test, I lose my jink save, can be assaulted, and take a STR 9 hit with no armor save. I see nothing that removes hard to hit. Nothing (despite the fact I do indeed play it this way, nothing removes hard to hit). And, as they went out of their way to make it this way, I have to assume that a Grounded FMC is still hard to hit and continues to take grounding tests. Show me anything in the brb that states otherwise. As I read it, Swooping gives you X, Y, and Z. If you fail a grounding test, it removes Y & Z, so I have to assume X still applies.

As long as you accept that you are inferring from the rules that you retain Hard To Hit - there is no RAW basis for it.

I am not inferring anything.
The rules state you declare yourself swooping or gliding. If you are swooping, you are hard to hit.
If you fail a grounding test, you become grounded and lose some of the perks of swooping.
At no point does it ever say you lose hard to hit.

It does not sound right, but that is the way the rule is written.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoverBoy wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:The follow up question is, can a FMC that is locked in assault declare itself swooping on its following movement phase? This would immediately remove it from CC (as swooping FMCs cannot be assaulted) and allow it to fly away.

Being assaulted and being locked in combat are two different things, there is no permission (again that word) for it to ignore being locked in combat.

OK, but by the book, I could do the following if locked in combat:

Declare myself swooping.
I am locked in combat, therefore I cannot move 18".
Since I am swooping and cannot move 18", (can't remember if its removed or take a wound).

Not saying this is a great idea, but if I had a 1 wound FMC locked in combat, I could conceivably kill it in order to be able to shoot at the no longer locked in combat squad, could I not?

Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

Green is Best! wrote:I am not inferring anything.
The rules state you declare yourself swooping or gliding. If you are swooping, you are hard to hit.

At the start of your movement, yes.

Green is Best! wrote:
If you fail a grounding test, you become grounded and lose some of the perks of swooping.
At no point does it ever say you lose hard to hit.

It does because a Grounded Monstrous Flying Creature is not a Swooping Monstrous Flying Creature.
Take the deamon ability that transforms a model into a chaos spawn. The rules don't need to clarify that the unit in question is no longer a jump infantry, or no longer has a power weapon, because the new rules over-ride the old. You can't be two contradictory things, you have to be the most recent.

Bottom line is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. To suggest that it IS requires an inference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hyv3mynd wrote:Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

You're seriously suggesting interpriting rules by font size?
The "A grounded monstrous creature is still swooping" crowd is really scraping the barrel now

hyv3mynd wrote:Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

It is because your post means absolutely nothing.

And again, despite what DogofWar thinks, the rules listed under Grounded are for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, period! You people keep saying it is for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, but that is NOT what the rule says. The RAW 100% clearly says a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and then gives you two rules specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

I have asked where you get permission to create a hybrid FMC. I have asked where the rules and direction are for a hybrid FMC. I have asked how do you apply Hard to Hit to Hit to a hybrid FMC. Not a single person has been able to reference a single rules reference in answer.

DeathReaper tries to play it off that he didn't pull a, "the rules don't say I can't, so I can", yet I quoted and emboldened where he did exactly that. DogofWar tries to say that it isn't lying when the rules specifically apply to a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and people insist that they are rules for a Swooping Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature (a term that is pure player creation). The truth is that an imaginary Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is either Gliding or Swooping is nothing but an made up hybrid to justify an argument. Despite it not be referenced ANYWHERE, for some insane reason people are giving it a set of rules and direction under the headings of GW defined terms.

It is useless putting forth a RAW based argument when the opposition will merely just make up rules to support their side and when pressed for RAW support, they ho hum the need for proof. I feel sorry for the fact that GW has to FAQ such an issue. At some point in time, I am sure GW felt the player base was more capable then what is presented here.

I am out.

Testify wrote:

Green is Best! wrote:I am not inferring anything.
The rules state you declare yourself swooping or gliding. If you are swooping, you are hard to hit.

At the start of your movement, yes.

Green is Best! wrote:
If you fail a grounding test, you become grounded and lose some of the perks of swooping.
At no point does it ever say you lose hard to hit.

It does because a Grounded Monstrous Flying Creature is not a Swooping Monstrous Flying Creature.
Take the deamon ability that transforms a model into a chaos spawn. The rules don't need to clarify that the unit in question is no longer a jump infantry, or no longer has a power weapon, because the new rules over-ride the old. You can't be two contradictory things, you have to be the most recent.

Bottom line is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. To suggest that it IS requires an inference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

hyv3mynd wrote:Looks like nobody read my post. Look at page 49. Gliding and swooping have their own titles in large font. Grounded doesn't appear until the 5th subtitle under swooping. It is not an equal state to swooping or gliding and does not replace either.

It is a modifier of the swooping state. If you swoop, you are swooping until your next movement phase. If you modify that by failing a grounding test, you lose 2 things. Hard to hit is not one of them.

That's how the whole page is written.

To those saying grounded is "intended" to cancel swooping, I say the page format and placement of grounding rules clearly show the intent is to modify the swooping state, not replace it.

You're seriously suggesting interpriting rules by font size?
The "A grounded monstrous creature is still swooping" crowd is really scraping the barrel now

Yes I seriously am. Because grounded monstrous creature is mentionedin the last paragraph of the swooping section. Swooping and gliding are mutually explusive and each have their own section on page 49. If grounded was a mutually exclusive state to swooping, it would have received its own section with a title the same size as swooping and gliding. The placement of grounding rules under the swooping section denote it as a modifier, not an independent state.

hyv3mynd wrote:
denote it as a modifier, not an independent state.

Source? Where does it say this in the rulebook.

It doesn't, you're inferring it.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:And again, despite what DogofWar thinks, the rules listed under Grounded are for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature, period! You people keep saying it is for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, but that is NOT what the rule says. The RAW 100% clearly says a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature and then gives you two rules specifically for a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

I have asked where you get permission to create a hybrid FMC. I have asked where the rules and direction are for a hybrid FMC. I have asked how do you apply Hard to Hit to Hit to a hybrid FMC. Not a single person has been able to reference a single rules reference in answer.

Page 49, Right Column, Grounded test heading, 3rd Paragraph tells us that there is such a thing as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature.

Let me Quote it for you: "If a [Number] is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength [Number] hit with no arrnour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged in the following Assault phase and automatically loses the Jink special rule..."

See the underlinded? it tells us that a MC that fails its roll becomes grounded, and is now a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature"

Did you not read that part?

It Still is a FMC, it still has used Swooping for its movement mode, and nothing takes away the Hard to Hit rule.

This is what the RAW say.

Tyr Grimtooth wrote:It is useless putting forth a RAW based argument when the opposition will merely just make up rules to support their side and when pressed for RAW support, they ho hum the need for proof.

We gave proof through page reference, your side is the ones that have not proven that the rules state that you lose Swooping.

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:

tetrisphreak wrote:

Testify wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

N.I.B. wrote:
The elegant (and obvious) balanced solution would be to take Grounded tests from unsaved wounds, not mere hits. But no breath will be held waiting for that.

Hahahahahahahha. No. Just no

Why is that funny? I kind of agree that if grounded MC's are treated as foot units, (which is the intent behind the rules mechanic IMO), the grounded test should have a bit of difficulty for the enemy to cause. Rolling a single '6' to hit with any weapon in the game shouldn't be enough to cause a 33% chance that the equivalent of a lascannon shot hits the MC as well, also bringing it down for the heavy weapons teams to bear down on it with impunity. The missile launchers and flakk cannons should be trying to down the MC, not the other way around.

Because Fateweaver/LOCs would become truely invincable. At least now if you shower them with lasguns or bolt pistols, there's a 1 in 3 chance they'll come down. But if you have to cause an unsaved wound you're looking at 6s to hit, wounding Toughness6, then a re-rollable 3++ invulnerable save .

Point taken. I was looking from only a tyranid perspective - no re-rollable 3++ saves for us. :( Best we can do is 3+ armor followed by 5+ feel no pain.

Lets not forget shooting down our FMCs with our own Psychic buffs.. Onslaught anyone . But yes, markerlight hits, etc... are just silly. It should be based on wounds and even if you have a nasty Fateweaver/LOC, then you have fliers to take care of those things.

Inferring it yes based on the layout of the entire FMC page. Have you stepped back and looked at the page formatting as a whole?

There are only 4 major subtitles. Changing flight mode, gliding, swooping and special rules. Gliding and swooping are mutually exclusive as you choose one of the other and cannot be both. If grounded was an exclusive state, it would have its own section with equally large font.

Instead, it appears in the very last paragraph of the very last subtitle under swooping. Because its in the swooping section, and specifically removes jink and the assault ban, and does not specifically cancel swooping or had to hit, that makes it a modified state of swooping.

hyv3mynd wrote:Have you stepped back and looked at the page formatting as a whole?

I think on that, I can bid this thread adieu.

Testify wrote:

hyv3mynd wrote:Have you stepped back and looked at the page formatting as a whole?

I think on that, I can bid this thread adieu.

Cheers mate. Peace.

It matters because just like a plasma cannon is found under a larger category of plasma weapons that share the "gets hot" rule and melta guns are found with similar weapons with the melta rule, grounded is found UNDER swooping. It shares the same rules except the 2 it specifically removes.

[quote=Testify
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please.

beigeknight wrote:

Testify wrote:
Don't bring common sense into rules discussions please.

I think this sums up the ridiculousness of these debates.

Of all the things we need in this world in every aspect of it, we're lacking in common sense. It's sad.

Sorry, I had to post this.

Okay so now I finally understand... GW uses a special secret code for the rules. Probably soon they will be selling us the decoder for a really fantastic deal too.

Just out of curiosity - if a Grounded Flying Montsrous Creature does retain 'Swooping', and therefore does retain the hard to hit rule, why is there a paragraph in the grounded rules about losing the Jink ability?

In the Grounded rules - it states you lose Jink, but can regain jink if you dive later in the game.

If you are 'Swooping', you are allowed to dive, which gives you Jink.

So you become Grounded, lose jink, but are apparently still Swooping, so you just dive again when you next get hit as allowed by both the Swooping rule and the Grounded rule.

By interpreting the rules such that a Flying Monstrous Creature who is Swooping, and becomes Grounded, retains Swooping, means this paragraph is completely and utterly useless.

READ THIS POST, BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT.

Ok, sorry, just had to get people's attention

RAW, the FMC doesn't lose the hard to hit rule. I believe that this is intentional. Why?

Like many things in 40k, all the shots in the shooting phase are supposedly fired simultaneously; it's done in different orders for simplicity's sake. So, technically, the FMC is still in the air till the end of the shooting phase. I mean, really, in an actual battle would it be "Alright, you rank of guardsmen there fire at the charging orks. Ok, can you see how many are dead? Excellent! Next squad to the right!"

RAW: Does the FMC lose the hard to hit rule? No.
RAI: Does the FMC lose the hard to hit rule? No.

DarkCorsair wrote:

Like many things in 40k, all the shots in the shooting phase are supposedly fired simultaneously; it's done in different orders for simplicity's sake. So, technically, the FMC is still in the air till the end of the shooting phase.

The shooting phase doesn't work like this. If it did work simultaneously (in game), you would declare all your targets at the start of your shooting phase. Otherwise you would have to say that you couldn't fire at a squad that was forced to disembark from a vehicle you wrecked early on in your shooting phase, because the guys are still in the vehicle until the end of the shooting phase. Now we all know this isn't correct.

If it is rules as intended that it retains the hard to hit rule, then this also doesn;t address my point above of writing a completely useless paragraph about losing the jink rule.

Flyrant gets Grounded - loses Jink as per grounded (but can get it again later in the game). Because he apparently still counts as Swooping, he can still dive, thus regaining the Jink rule (later in the game, as allowed by Grounded) for the very next shot - There is absolutely no point in writing this paragraph to remove Jink if the model still counts as Swooping. I know GW don't always write crystal clear rules, but they don't usually write in a specific rule that has absolutely no effect or meaning (other then the other part about allowing charges).

slice'n'dice wrote:

DarkCorsair wrote:

Like many things in 40k, all the shots in the shooting phase are supposedly fired simultaneously; it's done in different orders for simplicity's sake. So, technically, the FMC is still in the air till the end of the shooting phase.

The shooting phase doesn't work like this. If it did work simultaneously (in game), you would declare all your targets at the start of your shooting phase. Otherwise you would have to say that you couldn't fire at a squad that was forced to disembark from a vehicle you wrecked early on in your shooting phase, because the guys are still in the vehicle until the end of the shooting phase. Now we all know this isn't correct.

If it is rules as intended that it retains the hard to hit rule, then this also doesn;t address my point above of writing a completely useless paragraph about losing the jink rule.

Flyrant gets Grounded - loses Jink as per grounded (but can get it again later in the game). Because he apparently still counts as Swooping, he can still dive, thus regaining the Jink rule (later in the game, as allowed by Grounded) for the very next shot - There is absolutely no point in writing this paragraph to remove Jink if the model still counts as Swooping. I know GW don't always write crystal clear rules, but they don't usually write in a specific rule that has absolutely no effect or meaning (other then the other part about allowing charges).

Again, it's done that way for simplicity's sake.

And that has nothing in relation to the hard to hit rule. In a rules argument, saying "this implies that this should say something different" doesn't work. I was simply pointing out in my response that RAW it does not lose hard to it, and that RAI it could make sense too. In other words, you don't lose it either way, unless you want to change the rules. Even NOVA is ruling it that you don't lose hard to hit. Now, have I been playing it that my FMC's lose it? Of course I have! However, if we're arguing over what the rules say, you can't use interpretations based off of obscure implications.

How you actually play it says a lot more than how you would like to play it. I do applaud your honesty though.

I also play it as easy to hit and have since 6th dropped. Not everyone has ulterior motives or bias like some would think on dakka. I also don't want my first games with and impressions of the new rules to be tainted by rules arguments.

At the end of the day, there's not a huge difference at least from my games. They still soak a huge amount of firepower to take down and more focus again once they're down.

The point of arguing the RAW vs RAI is I fully expect the FAQ to reinforce that hard to hit is never removed by failing a grounding test. And I accept that others think the notion is ridiculous. I haven't read the NOVA FAQ yet, but they have a big team behind everything they do so it must have been a consensus. The new rules are not written perfectly. Often we're surprised by the direction FAQ's take. Tyranid players are familiar with this from the alternating SiTW/vehicle rulings, DoM rulings, IC rulings, etc.

For all we know they could rule it one way next month and reverse it next year.

I remember a case made here that nemesis force falchions confer +2 attacks. It was hotly debated with lots of diagrams and red elipses around certain phrases. End of the day it on,y confers +1 attack which is pretty good in my opinion.

Dozer Blades wrote:I remember a case made here that nemesis force falchions confer +2 attacks. It was hotly debated with lots of diagrams and red elipses around certain phrases. End of the day it on,y confers +1 attack which is pretty good in my opinion.

The +2A side actually won the argument from a technical standpoint, the opposition had no rules support. But GW ruled against the RAW and thats all that mattered.

And Falchions SUCK with only +1A. For the extra points compared to the killing power of the other options they are horrendiously overcosted.

Grey Templar wrote:

Dozer Blades wrote:I remember a case made here that nemesis force falchions confer +2 attacks. It was hotly debated with lots of diagrams and red elipses around certain phrases. End of the day it on,y confers +1 attack which is pretty good in my opinion.

The +2A side actually won the argument from a technical standpoint, the opposition had no rules support. But GW ruled against the RAW and thats all that mattered.

And Falchions SUCK with only +1A. For the extra points compared to the killing power of the other options they are horrendiously overcosted.

The Falchion debacle was very irritating. The RAW, fluff text, and arguably RAI clearly pointed towards +2 attacks. GW, however, spake otherwise and Falchions were placed back in a dusty vault on Titan, never to be wielded again.

I expect the same scenario will occur in this example. The RAW is clear, but in this case I think the intent of the rule (and the fluff) actually leans towards the opposite reading.

It's an interesting argument, to be sure, but I definitely believe the "does not lose Hard to Hit" camp have a much stronger case. Regardless, GT is correct, GW will tell us how they want us to play and we shall obey.

DoW

slice'n'dice wrote:Just out of curiosity - if a Grounded Flying Montsrous Creature does retain 'Swooping', and therefore does retain the hard to hit rule, why is there a paragraph in the grounded rules about losing the Jink ability?

In the Grounded rules - it states you lose Jink, but can regain jink if you dive later in the game.

If you are 'Swooping', you are allowed to dive, which gives you Jink.

So you become Grounded, lose jink, but are apparently still Swooping, so you just dive again when you next get hit as allowed by both the Swooping rule and the Grounded rule.

By interpreting the rules such that a Flying Monstrous Creature who is Swooping, and becomes Grounded, retains Swooping, means this paragraph is completely and utterly useless.

That paragraph would only be useless if the FMC didn't retain swooping. If it does retain swooping, the rules are necessary to get rid of jink and make it a legal target for assault. If it didn't retain swooping, i.e. it just said "and is no longer swooping", the rules wouldn't need to call out the fact that you no longer have jink and can be assaulted.

jcress410 wrote:

slice'n'dice wrote:
Just out of curiosity - if a Grounded Flying Montsrous Creature does retain 'Swooping', and therefore does retain the hard to hit rule, why is there a paragraph in the grounded rules about losing the Jink ability?

In the Grounded rules - it states you lose Jink, but can regain jink if you dive later in the game.

If you are 'Swooping', you are allowed to dive, which gives you Jink.

So you become Grounded, lose jink, but are apparently still Swooping, so you just dive again when you next get hit as allowed by both the Swooping rule and the Grounded rule.

By interpreting the rules such that a Flying Monstrous Creature who is Swooping, and becomes Grounded, retains Swooping, means this paragraph is completely and utterly useless.

That paragraph would only be useless if the FMC didn't retain swooping. If it does retain swooping, the rules are necessary to get rid of jink and make it a legal target for assault. If it didn't retain swooping, i.e. it just said "and is no longer swooping", the rules wouldn't need to call out the fact that you no longer have jink and can be assaulted.

Actually, it is the complete opposite, which is why I raised the point in the first place.

You see, being swooping does not give you jink - diving does. Diving can only be done if you are swooping, and gives you Jink for the rest of the turn.

So lets suppose that when you become grounded - you do in fact lose swooping. In this case, one unit fires at my flyer, and I decide to Dive (because I am swooping). This gives me the jink special rule until the end of turn. Now, if my Flyer becomes grounded (and assuming this means I lose swooping) - I would normally still retain the Jink special rule, as this is not dependent on Swooping. However, the Grounded special rule specifically removes the Jink special rule. Also, as I can no longer Swoop until the start of my next movement phase (where I choose my flying State), I cannot Dive to regain the Jink special rule until I am swooping again (note the grounded special rule specifically allows me to regain the Jink rule 'later' in the game.

So if grounded means you lose swooping, the whole rule around Grounding making you lose Jink makes perfect sense.

Now lets suppose that when you become grounded - you do not lose swooping. In this case, one unit fires at my flyer, and I decide to Dive (because I am swooping). This gives me the jink special rule until the end of turn. Now, if my Flyer becomes grounded (and assuming this means I do not lose swooping) - I will still lose my Jink special rule as before. However, because I am still Swooping, I can still Dive - which means I can regain the Jink special rule at the very next unit that shoots at my flyer, as long as the Grounded special rule does not prevent me from regaining the Jink rule later in the game. As the Grounded rule does let me re-gain Jink later in the game though, the removal of the Jink rule becomes useless. You fire unit one at my flyer, and ground me, and I lose the Jink rule. You fire unit 2 at my Flyer, and as I'm still Swooping, I dive again which allows me to re-gain the Jink rule.

If the grounded rule stated that I would lose Jink until the next turn, it would make sense, but it does not.

I'm not trying to state here that anyone is deliberately trying to gain advantage by playing this rule one way or another (I think there are clear advantages and disadvantages to playing it either way) - I'm just trying to point out that by playing it as 'Retains Swooping', it actually makes one of the specific rules relating to Grounded useless.

You miss that the only way to Dive is if you are swooping. If you arn't swooping you cannot dive.

Reread his post. If a Grounded FMC loses Swooping, then you cannot dive and thus cannot regain jink. If you do not lose Swooping, then you can jink for every unit that shots at you.

Sure, but you must redeclare Dive each time they shoot at you.

GW sure messed up on this rule whatever is correct.


Prediction of FAQ.

"FMC retain Hard to Hit and may take multiple grounding tests, but may not Dive for the rest of the turn."

This thread makes me want to cry.

Other than that, GW, my god, when will you ever learn to write rules properly so misinterpretation doesn't cause long winded debates about such a ruling..

From the start of 6th I played FMC's lose HtH when grounded and are no longer Swooping.
To me this seems RAI even though you would want them to be in the same class as Flying Veichles, they are not.

Cmon guys, a bouncing up and down Flyrant isn't logical or cinematic.

Games Workshop, pull your f'ing finger out.

L0rdF1end wrote:This thread makes me want to cry.

Other than that, GW, my god, when will you ever learn to write rules properly so misinterpretation doesn't cause long winded debates about such a ruling..

From the start of 6th I played FMC's lose HtH when grounded and are no longer Swooping.
To me this seems RAI even though you would want them to be in the same class as Flying Veichles, they are not.

Cmon guys, a bouncing up and down Flyrant isn't logical or cinematic.

Games Workshop, pull your f'ing finger out.

I play it that way too, because it makes sense for them to lose HtH.

I'm glad another person agrees that the rule is written poorly, however, to even allow a 6+ page thread on this topic (plus 2 or 3 previous threads as well).

Here's crossing fingers that it's addressed in the rumored forthcoming FAQ for the 6th ed rulebook./

I don't think it's badly written at all.
The internet is not real life. I could have read this rule a hundred times and it wouldn't have occurred to me to claim that I still had Hard To Hit.

Testify wrote:I don't think it's badly written at all.
The internet is not real life. I could have read this rule a hundred times and it wouldn't have occurred to me to claim that I still had Hard To Hit.

The rule is badly written for people that follow the rule logically as it was written.
The problem being Grounded does not specify clearly enough that Swooping is lost when Grounded.

When we think about the terms used and read it as it was a book and not a rule logical sense fills the void and Grounded clearly was meant to mean your FMC is no longer Swooping.

Testify wrote:

hyv3mynd wrote:
denote it as a modifier, not an independent state.

Source? Where does it say this in the rulebook.

It doesn't, you're inferring it.

It is hilarious that you say this when your entire argument seems to be based on inference.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Testify wrote:I don't think it's badly written at all.
The internet is not real life. I could have read this rule a hundred times and it wouldn't have occurred to me to claim that I still had Hard To Hit.

Also, I thought you had bid this thread adieu?

L0rdF1end wrote:The problem being Grounded does not specify clearly enough that Swooping is lost when Grounded.

That is because Grounded tells you exactly what you lose.

Swooping is not amongst the things lost.

Wrong... The rule doesn't tell you to keep swooping. You lose the jink and you can be assaulted. It's explicit you're no longer swooping anymore.

Saw a dude at my FLGS throw a tantrum when we wouldn't let him keep swooping. He got all red in the face and started shouting.

Dozer Blades wrote:Wrong... The rule doesn't tell you to keep swooping.

Incorrect.

It does not have to, as you are already Swooping because you declared it as the MC's movement mode and it lasts until your next movement phase. Nothing take Swooping away. (Permissive Ruleset tells us this is true)

Dozer Blades wrote:You lose the jink and you can be assaulted. It's explicit you're no longer swooping anymore.

Saw a dude at my FLGS throw a tantrum when we wouldn't let him keep swooping. He got all red in the face and started shouting.

The Bold text is correct.

The Underlined Text is not correct. It is not explicit. It does not explicitly tell you Swooping is lost.

It might be implicit, but it is definitely not explicit.

He was right to be upset by your claim, because your claim has no RAW support.

DeathReaper wrote:

L0rdF1end wrote:The problem being Grounded does not specify clearly enough that Swooping is lost when Grounded.

That is because Grounded tells you exactly what you lose.

Swooping is not amongst the things lost.

+1 Internets for you sir.

DR has got it right. All Grounded does is modify the properties of Swooping. RAW it's a bit silly. RAI, probably should lose Swooping (and it's associated benefits).

Couple of rhetorical questions:

1.) Are there only two flight modes for an FMC to choose from at the start of its Movement?
2.) Is Grounded one of the flight modes that can be chosen?
3.) When a FMC is Grounded, does the Grounded rule explicitly state (permissive rule set) that the FMC loses the Swooping rule?
4.) If you think that Grounded does indeed remove the Swooping flight mode, then what flight mode does the FMC have? (see questions 1 & 2)
5.) Does the Grounded rule mechanic explicitly state (permissive rule set) that the FMC no longer has the HtH property?

-Yad

Dozer Blades wrote:Saw a dude at my FLGS throw a tantrum when we wouldn't let him keep swooping. He got all red in the face and started shouting.

You should You Tube that kind of behaviour so we can all laugh.

Unfortunately, as the current ruling is written, Swooping remains in play when Grounded. MASSIVE oversight by GW.

Dozer Blades wrote:Wrong... The rule doesn't tell you to keep swooping. You lose the jink and you can be assaulted. It's explicit you're no longer swooping anymore.

Actually that would be the very definition of implicit (and absolutely not explicit) . "A and B are true," so C must be true; C was a conclusion you feel was implied by A and B. "C is true," would be explicit. Unfortunately, GW was not explicit with what happens with Swooping one way or the other. Until they do it's going to be house rules and hilarious red faced tantrum throwers. Come up with a consensus, shake hands, have a fun game.

Dozer Blades wrote:Wrong... The rule doesn't tell you to keep swooping. You lose the jink and you can be assaulted. It's explicit you're no longer swooping anymore.

Saw a dude at my FLGS throw a tantrum when we wouldn't let him keep swooping. He got all red in the face and started shouting.

1) Rehashing the exact same argument (from 5 pages ago).

2) Selective reading of the rules (Grounding specifically states what happens to jink and immunity to assault, that's it)

3) Strawman (your FLGS is important, why?).

People have responded to this exact argument several times. You do not need to be told you keep/retain/still have/have the benefit of/do not lose Swooping after a Grounding test any more than you need to be told that you keep Feel no Pain when you take a Pinning test.

The horse is dead, Dozer, please stop beating it if you have nothing original to add.

DoW

I don't understand how you can be assaulted but still considered to be swooping. Those two conditions do not coexist. It doesn't come right out and say it but it is strongly implied that grounded monstrous creatures are no longer swooping and can not do so again until a later turn.

Kevlar wrote:I don't understand how you can be assaulted but still considered to be swooping. Those two conditions do not coexist. It doesn't come right out and say it but it is strongly implied that grounded monstrous creatures are no longer swooping and can not do so again until a later turn.

They absolutely can coexist. The results of a grounding hit specify you can be assaulted.

rigeld2 wrote:
They absolutely can coexist. The results of a grounding hit specify you can be assaulted.

Right, and the rule for swooping says that a swooping monstrous creature cannot charge or be charged. In addition, the grounding rule states that MC may again move normally in their following turn.

Why include they "may move normally in their following turn" unless they are indeed no longer moving normally (swooping)?

It doesn't make any sense other than to conclude that grounded models lose swooping. I'm not saying that it is correct by RAW because it is a horribly written rule, but logically it is the only way that works.

I got to page three and wanted to pull my hair out. Really you guys? This is beyond ridiculous that you cannot see the RAW and insist on arguing nonsense.

1. A FMC that fails its grounding test "comes crashing down to the ground..." If you are actually claiming that a FMC can be Swooping after it crashes to the ground...do you understand what crashes means? This is further supported by the rules when it says "...and becomes Grounded." It is no longer Swooping because it becomes Grounded.

2. In the permissive ruleset you have permission to benefit from the Hard to Hit rule when, and only when, you are a Swooping FMC. "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target..." You lose the ability to benefit from Hard to Hit when you are no longer classified as a Swooping FMC. This happens when you "become Grounded."

3. It specifies you lose Jink because Jink covers you until the start of your next movement phase. But, since you lost the ability to Dive, by crashing, you lose Jink immediately.

4. A FMC that is Grounded can Swoop again, as evidenced by the fact that it says you can get Jink back by Diving later in the game. If you cannot Swoop anymore after becoming Grounded then you could not possibly Dive again, and that would be breaking a rule.

Captain Antivas wrote:I got to page three and wanted to pull my hair out. Really you guys? This is beyond ridiculous that you cannot see the RAW and insist on arguing nonsense.

1. A FMC that fails its grounding test "comes crashing down to the ground..." If you are actually claiming that a FMC can be Swooping after it crashes to the ground...do you understand what crashes means? This is further supported by the rules when it says "...and becomes Grounded." It is no longer Swooping because it becomes Grounded.

Fluff argument is fluff. "comes crashing down to the ground" is descriptive language and not an actual rule. If so, do you mean for the player to hold up their FMC and drop it on the table? 'Becomes Grounded' is not a flight mode that the player can choose from, nor does the Grounded rule explicitly say that the Swooping mode is lost. It also doesn't say that Grounded is another flight mode.

Captain Antivas wrote:2. In the permissive ruleset you have permission to benefit from the Hard to Hit rule when, and only when, you are a Swooping FMC. "A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target..." You lose the ability to benefit from Hard to Hit when you are no longer classified as a Swooping FMC. This happens when you "become Grounded."

Nope. The FMC loses the property of HtH because it has gained the property of Grounded, not because they lose Swooping. You're right that it's a permissive rule set, you just need to practice what you preach

Captain Antivas wrote:3. It specifies you lose Jink because Jink covers you until the start of your next movement phase. But, since you lost the ability to Dive, by crashing, you lose Jink immediately.

Same answer as before. You lose Jink because Grounded says you lost jink (permissive rule set )

Captain Antivas wrote:4. A FMC that is Grounded can Swoop again, as evidenced by the fact that it says you can get Jink back by Diving later in the game. If you cannot Swoop anymore after becoming Grounded then you could not possibly Dive again, and that would be breaking a rule.

You have yet to point to anywhere in the Grounded rule where it says that you actually lose the Swooping flight mode. Grounded is simply a property that is applied to a Swooping FMC. It's definitely a gap in the way the RAW is written and I don't think it ought to play that way. I imagine in friendly games you shouldn't have too much difficulty in convincing your friends, but this is RAW.

-Yad

Yad has it.

I certainly don't blame the other camp for getting frustrated. Common sense absolutely tells us that a Grounded FMC that was Swooping should lose Swooping. It makes sense from a fluff perspective, it makes sense from a gaming perspective, and it makes sense from what we can imagine GW probably intended to balance out the rules for FMC.

What most certainly doesn't support it is the RAW. To be fair, RAW is not everything (especially if it breaks the game and there is no way to play other than packing up and going home) but it should be paramount to players who are wishing to play the game properly. Arguing that something is RAW because you want it to be, the fluff seems to say so, common sense would agree, or it's what GW would have intended, is just plain wrong.

As Inigo Montoya might say: "I do not think that word means what you think it means..."

Never fear, the incoming FAQ will (probably) answer this question.

DoW

It is called a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is the same format as a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. But no let's go ahead and read it like something completely different.

Who died and made you the fluff police? Now something is fluff simply because you decide it is? It is part of the description, it is a rule. It sure takes a brilliant mind to discard every argument that disagrees with you and label it "fluff" and declare victory. Nice work.

It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Captain Antivas wrote:It is called a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature. It is the same format as a Gliding Flying Monstrous Creature and Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature. But no let's go ahead and read it like something completely different.

And yet it's not a formally defined Flight Mode that can be chosen during the controlling player's Movement phase. Nor is it ever described as a 'flight mode' in the text of the rules.

Captain Antivas wrote:Who died and made you the fluff police? Now something is fluff simply because you decide it is? It is part of the description, it is a rule. It sure takes a brilliant mind to discard every argument that disagrees with you and label it "fluff" and declare victory. Nice work.

uh oh. It's fluff cause I'd rather not drop my FMC onto the table thank you very much

Captain Antivas wrote:It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Why not? Seems to me that you're missing the forest for the trees. The RAW describes two flight modes, Swooping and Gliding. Grounded is a property that can be applied to Swooping FMC. It's not a matter of me showing you the appropriate rules, it's a matter of you understanding the rules as written.

Captain Antivas wrote:Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Of course, I'm not, and never have, stating that a FMC still has HtH when affected by the Grounded rule. Not sure where you're getting that from...

-Yad

Captain Antivas wrote:It becomes Grounded. Not grounded, but Grounded. A game term like Wound, Attack, and Swooping. One cannot be a Swooping Grounded Monstrous Creature. Show me the rule that allows that? You can't because the rules as they are written, and not as they exist in crazyland, only refer to Swooping, Gliding, and Grounded Monstrous Creatures.

Again, you have permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping. Not when you are Grounded. Permissive ruleset. Learn what it means.

Page 49 refers to it as a "Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature" and we know it is Swooping because that is what flight mode we chose for the FMC in the previous movement phase. (Instead of Gliding, which is the other movement mode of the two we have to choose from). Therefore it is a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature that has declared swooping as its movement mode in the movement phase.

We do have "permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping". Becoming Grounded only adds two things to a Flying MC that has declared swooping as its movement mode. These are "can be charged in the following Assault phase" and "automatically loses the Jink special rule".

That is it. It could not be charged and grounded over-rides that restriction, and if it had jink it loses it, because Grounded says so.

Unfortunately that is all Grounded takes away so it is still Swooping and you will need to take further Grounded tests if you are hit by a different unit.

I'm not really sure who is on which side anymre.

Yad wrote:And yet it's not a formally defined Flight Mode that can be chosen during the controlling player's Movement phase

This is because you cannot choose to be a Grounded FMC. You are never given permission to. You are only given permission to choose to be a Gliding FMC or a Swooping FMC. However, a Flying FMC can become a Grounded FMC.

Whether or not GW ever decided to clarify what they intended in the rules is questionable.

Yes, it was probably intended for the FMC to lose Swooping and Hard to hit, but the rules are not written that way.

They are written so that they can be assaulted and lose Jink, and that is all they lose RAW.

DeathReaper wrote:We do have "permission to use Hard to Hit when you are Swooping". Becoming Grounded only adds two things to a Flying MC that has declared swooping as its movement mode. These are "can be charged in the following Assault phase" and "automatically loses the Jink special rule".

That is it. It could not be charged and grounded over-rides that restriction, and if it had jink it loses it, because Grounded says so.

Unfortunately that is all Grounded takes away so it is still Swooping and you will need to take further Grounded tests if you are hit by a different unit.

False. You become grounded. You are no longer Swooping as you are Grounded. You were forced to the Ground and are no longer Swooping. The RAW is clear. Again, show me where you have permission to be a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. You cannot be one because that doesn't exist. You become grounded, then you are referred to as a Grounded Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. They didn't specify you lose your Hard to Hit because it is obvious since you are a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged..." You are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature you are a Grounded one. RAW.

Captain Antivas wrote:False. You become grounded. You are no longer Swooping as you are Grounded. You were forced to the Ground and are no longer Swooping. The RAW is clear. Again, show me where you have permission to be a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. You cannot be one because that doesn't exist. You become grounded, then you are referred to as a Grounded Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. They didn't specify you lose your Hard to Hit because it is obvious since you are a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged..." You are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature you are a Grounded one. RAW.

False. Grounded is not a movement mode. Only Gliding and Swooping, and those both last until the FMC's next movement phase.

A Swooping MC can become grounded. this status does not say that Swooping is lost, so it is not (Permissive Ruleset).

I have shown permission to be Swooping. It lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase. Unless you have a rules quote that says that the FMC loses the benefits of the movement mode it chose in its movement phase, which was Swooping, if you have rules that say that it loses Swooping please refer us to the page, because it is not on P. 49.

Here is how I see the RAW - a grounded FMC is no longer swooping because he can be assaulted and loses jink. The rulebook does not state that a grounded FMC is still swooping either. This is the RAW.

Dozer Blades wrote:Here is how I see the RAW - a grounded FMC is no longer swooping because he can be assaulted and loses jink. The rulebook does not state that a grounded FMC is still swooping either. This is the RAW.

It doesn't have to.

In a permissive ruleset, if you are doing something(swooping) you must told explicitly that you stop doing something for it to stop.

Grounded does NOT say Swooping ends, therefore it does not. If they had really meant for Swooping to end, they would have said "a FMC that fails a Grounding test is no longer swooping, it is now Gliding for all rule purposes"

That would have also removed Jink and Hard to Hit(because you MUST be swooping to have those), but instead they singled out those 2 very specific parts of a Swooping FMC(that may or may not have dived earlier)


The very fact they singled those out says they it does indeed retain Swooping, and Hard to Hit(which is never mentioned)

Dozer and Antivas, you do realize that just saying 'RAW' several times in your posts doesn't make it reflect the actual rules, right?

I get the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point since neither of are disproving, countering, or even addressing GreyTemplar or Deathreaper's points.

I hate to say it, but this one is pretty cut and dry. It's certainly not HIWPI, but that's a different argument altogether.

DoW

And with the same token you don't automatically get to be right by telling me I am wrong either. Its a 2-way street. I am addressing the points they just don't agree.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeathReaper wrote:

Captain Antivas wrote:False. You become grounded. You are no longer Swooping as you are Grounded. You were forced to the Ground and are no longer Swooping. The RAW is clear. Again, show me where you have permission to be a Grounded Swooping Monstrous Creature. You cannot be one because that doesn't exist. You become grounded, then you are referred to as a Grounded Monstrous Creature, not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. They didn't specify you lose your Hard to Hit because it is obvious since you are a Grounded Monstrous Creature.

"A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature can be charged..." You are not a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature you are a Grounded one. RAW.

False. Grounded is not a movement mode. Only Gliding and Swooping, and those both last until the FMC's next movement phase.

A Swooping MC can become grounded. this status does not say that Swooping is lost, so it is not (Permissive Ruleset).

I have shown permission to be Swooping. It lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase. Unless you have a rules quote that says that the FMC loses the benefits of the movement mode it chose in its movement phase, which was Swooping, if you have rules that say that it loses Swooping please refer us to the page, because it is not on P. 49.

It sure is. The permission to benefit from Hard to Hit is to be a Swooping Monstrous Creature. You are not a Swooping Monstrous Creature. You are a Grounded Monstrous Creature. Grounded is not a movement mode because you are not moving. The Flight mode you are using is decided when you move. Swooping isn't a movement mode either, it is a Flight mode. But when you lose control and crash to the ground you are no longer flying. You are Grounded. You were Swooping, you got hit, you become Grounded and are now a Grounded FMC. Again, show me where you get permission to be both Swooping and Grounded.

No, Grounded is NOT a state of movement. The only states of movement are Swooping and Gliding. Grounded is a modification of Swooping.

I have permission to Swoop in the movement phase. Nothing ever takes that away(a point you have failed to counter) and then Grounded gets added onto it.

You must show that they are mutually exclusive(they are not) to say they cannot exist together.

I have shown that. A FMC that is Swooping and gets hit takes a Grounded test. If you fail you become Grounded. You become Grounded. You are no longer Swooping you become Grounded and are treated as a Grounded FMC.

That is how I see it to and this equates to the glide mode.

Yeah, you become Grounded. Whats that mean?

"a grounded FMC may be assaulted in the following assault phase and loses the Jink special rule(if it had it)"


Thats it, nothing else. Ziltch, nada, no mo, etc...

There is nothing there that shows it stops Swooping and loses Hard to Hit.

Except that you need permission to be both Grounded and Swooping. Which you do not have. It then gives special rules for being Grounded.

I have permission to be both.

I have permission to pick A or B. I am forced to take C on as a result of a Test. It is always allowed to have multiple states(except where specifically disallowed)

Captain Antivas wrote:And with the same token you don't automatically get to be right by telling me I am wrong either. Its a 2-way street. I am addressing the points they just don't agree.

We do not agree because you have no actual rules supporting your viewpoint, while ours is backed fully by the rules.

Captain Antivas wrote: The Flight mode you are using is decided when you move. Swooping isn't a movement mode either, it is a Flight mode.

Which is movement.

"Flying Monstrous Creatures can move using one of two flight modes:" P.49

FMC's Move by using a flight mode.

Flight mode = Movement.

Captain Antivas wrote:But when you lose control and crash to the ground you are no longer flying

Nowhere in the actual rules on P.49 does it say this.

It does not say that you are no longer Flying.

Stop insisting that it does, unless you have a quote to back you up, which you do not.

Mine is supported by the rules, you just don't interpret them to mean what I say they mean. You cannot argue that it is as clear as it should be. We are back to going around and around the same circular argument so I am stepping out before this gets out of hand.

But before I go, I have one quote for you. I assume you are going to label this as fluff and discount it, but I am going to try anyway.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

Yep, it never says the beast stops flying, it just crashes to the ground, becomes grounded, and takes a S9 hit from hitting the ground. But you are right, you can crash and hit the ground and still be flying. Good catch there.

That is because the rules do not actually say what you are insisting that they say.

Where does it specifically mention the removal of the Swooping Status?

If it does not specifically mention the removal of the Swooping Status then the Swooping Status is retained. (Permissive ruleset tells us this).

Grey Templar wrote:Yeah, you become Grounded. Whats that mean?

"a grounded FMC may be assaulted in the following assault phase and loses the Jink special rule(if it had it)"


Thats it, nothing else. Ziltch, nada, no mo, etc...

There is nothing there that shows it stops Swooping and loses Hard to Hit.

You've just made my point for me. Thanks for that. You are trying to establish a case that an FMC can be partially swooping which I find silly.

No, your point was not made for you. It never says Swooping is lost. NEVER.

Which is exactly what you are trying to say, but utterly failing.


FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

It can't be partially swooping / either it is or it is not.

DeathReaper wrote:
We do not agree because you have no actual rules supporting your viewpoint, while ours is backed fully by the rules.

Zing.
No it's not. I asked you to show a quote supporting this earlier in the thread and you couldn't, because it isn't.
Everything about your argument, you have inferred - will you at least concede that?
Either something is written (like, say, "and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature"), or it is inferred.

You are saying that the rules state that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Hard To Hit. Show me where it says that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:No, your point was not made for you. It never says Swooping is lost. NEVER.

Which is exactly what you are trying to say, but utterly failing.


FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

Actually no.
If you follow that logic through - that a MC is swooping until the rules say that it is not - then it never stops swooping. The rules say that you choose how it moves - they do not state that Swooping is no longer in effect.

Yeah it's a lot like people who tried to say Sanguine Sword stayed activated forever once activated.

Grey Templar wrote:FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

Unless they are shot out of the sky.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
We do not agree because you have no actual rules supporting your viewpoint, while ours is backed fully by the rules.

Zing.
No it's not. I asked you to show a quote supporting this earlier in the thread and you couldn't, because it isn't.
Everything about your argument, you have inferred - will you at least concede that?
Either something is written (like, say, "and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature"), or it is inferred.

You are saying that the rules state that a Grounded Monstrous Creature retains Hard To Hit. Show me where it says that.

It is not inferred. The rules explicitly state the duration of Swooping. I have not inferred this information.

Here are your rules quotes you asked for. Page 49 is where it says that:

"At the start of its move, a Flying Monstrous Creature rnust declare whether it is Swooping or Gliding until the start of its next turn."

Rules say that it is Swooping until the start of its next turn.

"HARD To Hit A Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature is a very difficult target for units without specialised weapons. Shots resolved at such a target..."

Rules say that it has the Hard to Hit rule whilst Swooping. Swooping lasts until the start of its(The MC's) next turn.

Nothing in the Grounded rules explicitly say that Swooping is lost.

Since Swooping lasts until the start of its next turn, and nothing takes Swooping away, then it is hard to hit, because it is Swooping, until the start of its next turn.

Grounded takes away the two rules it takes away, it does not explicitly take Swooping away.

Grey Templar wrote:No, your point was not made for you. It never says Swooping is lost. NEVER.

Which is exactly what you are trying to say, but utterly failing.

FMCs that are Swooping retain Swooping until their next movement phase.

Actually no.
If you follow that logic through - that a MC is swooping until the rules say that it is not - then it never stops swooping. The rules say that you choose how it moves - they do not state that Swooping is no longer in effect.

DeathReaper wrote:
Rules say that it has the Hard to Hit rule whilst Swooping. Swooping lasts until the start of its(The MC's) next turn.

Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit.
And you have failed to find me a quote that says otherwise.

To me it doesnt matter, the MC can take as many grounded tests, as units that shoot at him and hit him. He is then able to be assaulted if still alive.

The good thing, is that now grounded, i.e. assaultable, he is getting smacked at regular weapon skill with a T-hammer and will likely bite it rather quickly.

To me, I play raw, the MC is still swooping, just assaultable. No problems, no questions. Simple as that. If he is locked in assault, he is not able to move away, so any questions regarding movement in the next phase are irrelevant.

Not every army has marines standing by with thunderhammers covering the entire table... wishful thinking.

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Rules say that it has the Hard to Hit rule whilst Swooping. Swooping lasts until the start of its(The MC's) next turn.

Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit.
And you have failed to find me a quote that says otherwise.

See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

You cannot be in two states simultaneously - therefore you cannot be grounded and swooping at the same time. To say otherwise is a purely logical fallacy.

DeathReaper wrote:
Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

"and becomes a Grounded Monstrous Creature".
This is then defined.

I no more have to justify why a Grounded MC does not have Hard To Hit, than I have to justify why all jump infantry do not have FNP, or why independant Charectors are not all WS10.

DeathReaper wrote:
See the onus is on you to find where Swooping is taken away, since the Grounded rules do not say that Swooping is canceled.

I have provided rules quotes that list the duration of Swooping.

you have not provided rules quotes that specifically take Swooping away.

Please Quote the passage that says this: "Rules also say that a Grounded FMC does not have Hard To Hit."

By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

I posted a quote earlier but you didn't respond to it. Either you missed it or ignored it, I am not sure. Could go either way. So here it is again.

"If a 1 or 2 is rolled, the beast comes crashing down to the ground - it suffers a single Strength 9 hit with no armour or cover saves allowed, and become Grounded."

You asked for rules quotes, I gave them to you. It cannot be flying if it crashed into the ground. And what proof do I have that it hit the ground? Well, it says the beast crashes for one. It also takes a S9 hit. What do you think that hit came from? Wishful thinking?

The model may move normally, which does more than imply but straight says the FMC is no longer moving like he was before. There, further rules quotes that you lose Swooping.

If you claim that Grounded FMC does not mean it is Grounded and not Swooping then Swooping FMC does not mean what you say it means. You do not have permission to be a Swooping Grounded FMC. You have explicit permission to be a Swooping FMC or a Grounded FMC not both. Prove that you can have both. I have proven that you cannot.

That does not say it loses Swooping Flight Mode.

Find something that does or you have no Rules basis for your argument.

Dozer Blades wrote:You cannot be in two states simultaneously - therefore you cannot be grounded and swooping at the same time. To say otherwise is a purely logical fallacy.

Grounded is not a Flight mode. Not sure what you are getting at.

Kevlar wrote:By being "grounded" and assault-able you can't logically be "swooping" which is flying really fast. How can something "grounded" and assault-able by people on the ground continue to be swooping? It makes no sense, from a RAW standpoint grounded doesn't explicitly say "you are no longer swooping" but from a logic stand point it is the only possible conclusion. Why also did they include that the model may "move normally" in its next turn? Right there it is strongly implying the model is no longer moving "normally" which before it was grounded happened to be "swooping".

So why specify that you lose Jink and can be assaulted, but no mention of Losing Hard to hit?

DeathReaper wrote:That does not say it loses Swooping Flight Mode.

Yes it does. It is implicit.

1. A Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature is a State, otherwise it would not be capitalised ( p49

2. Under the Grounded Test rules, the creature is first referred to as a Flying Monstrous Creature that is Swooping, and then referred to as a Grounded Flying Monstrous Creature if it fails a Grounded Test.

3. If it fails a Grounded Test, it becomes Grounded.

4. Definition of "become": to change State, to transform,to grow into something else.

These points together form a pretty strong implicit argument that you cease to be swooping, and become grounded.

couple that with the fact the removal of jink as per the grounded rules has no effect if you are still swooping. (see my post on pg6).

also, following the logic that it never actually states you lose Swooping, it also never states you lose Grounded
_ so once you are grounded in a game I suppose you're grounded for the rest of that game.

All the rules make a lot more sense if you adhere to the strong implicit (I agree, not explicit) interpretation that you do lose Swooping.

As stated before though, as long as you agree with your opponent how you'll play it, I'll personally accept either interpretation

I just realised something.
These threads allways boil down to "pure logic" vs "common sense". I wonder how many of the pure logic people are affected by their knowledge (if any) in programming?

DeathReaper wrote:So why specify that you lose Jink and can be assaulted, but no mention of Losing Hard to hit?

As has been pointed out earlier Jink lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase and has nothing to do with swooping. You gain Jink by diving not by swooping, so it is essential to say you lose it because losing Swooping would not remove Jink.

Saying it is assaultable is just a clarification that although the creature was Swooping, it is no longer unassaultable.

The rules state there are only TWO flight modes,

Swooping and Gliding.

Therefore Grounded is not a flight mode, and does not counteract the model being Swooping.

Thus any rules for Swooping not directly countered by Grounded are still in effect.

No one is claiming that Grounded is a flight mode, will you all please stop saying that and actually read what is being written. It is not a flight mode, but it is specifically stated to be its own mode. The FMC can move as normal after being Grounded, which means he is not moving as normal. Normal moving requires Swooping or Gliding, and since the FMC is not moving as normal he loses the benefits of both. He is a Grounded FMC, not a Gliding Grounded FMC, but the book specifically refers to him as a Grounded FMC.

Right a Grounded FMC, that moved in Swooping flight mode, as NOTHING takes away the movement mode he used in his movement phase.

Nothing in the Grounded Rules says that he loses Hard to hit.

Captain Antivas wrote:As has been pointed out earlier Jink lasts until the beginning of the next movement phase and has nothing to do with swooping. You gain Jink by diving not by swooping, so it is essential to say you lose it because losing Swooping would not remove Jink.

Except you have to be Swooping to declare Dive and get the Jink rule...

Testify wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:That does not say it loses Swooping Flight Mode.

Yes it does. It is implicit.

Actually it is implied that it keeps its Swooping Mode, because grounded specifically mentions removal of jink and add in the ability to be assaulted. if they went that far they could have just said it replaces Swooping with Gliding flight mode and everything would have been clear.

But they did not say this so it is implied that only the things listed under Grounded are added/removed and everything else stays the same.