C'omon people you all have one, a character that you just don't like, whether its his/her background, rules or stats whatever!
Personally I don't like mephiston, Really good stats and physic powers that are simply too easy to use, he can become str ten with no effort and fly and loads of other crap!
Also I don't like Dante simply because of his death mask thingy, made commissar Yarric (the only IG character that stands a tiny chance against other characters) rubbish, he just dropped all of his stats down just like that, seriously annoying!

Fateweaver.

The bane of my existence.

Iranna.

Well luckily for me I have never had to fight the fate weaver.
Why do you not like it so much?

Lysander, damn i hate him, the str 10 hammer, the enternal warrior, Bolter drills and even worse is that damn sheild.
He should be nerfed.

Vulkan. Just because, every time I see him across the table from me, I just have to sigh and think "Oh, it's THIS army again".

If you could nerf one thing what would it be?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cerebrium wrote:Vulkan. Just because, every time I see him across the table from me, I just have to sigh and think "Oh, it's THIS army again".

i take it you face him alot...

Draigo.

Imotech with his stupid nightfighting thing.

No thanks.

Draigo!

Can never kill the 'tard

I'm gonna have to go for Cotaez with his damn ' I've been waiting for you ' and its anti-daemonocity...

Draigo, for obvious reasons. Don't like Imotekh either.

All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

Draigo, and not just for fluff.

Vulkan He'stan. Went a full year before I saw a C:SM list that didn't include this guy. Such a no-brainer auto-include for 5E SM armies, he made all the stuff you'd take masses of anything better, and was more capable than an equivalent captain, for a negligible points increase.

Fateweaver- A gimmick centerpiece whom I've never seen used in anything but heavily khornate armies.

The Stormlord- Another gimmick HQ that gives huge strategic advantages and a very powerful ability to inflict great harm on an opponents army (especially stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Heavy Weapon squads, and light/medium vehicles), simply by being included in an army list. He's intensely hard to kill and all his abilities work without him even needing to be alive or indeed for the owning player to do anything. He simply is taken and gives a massive boost to an army without actually needing to do anything with him. The perfect definition of a "Crutch".

Canis Wolfborn- His fluff. All of it.

Draigo- his fluff is atrocious, I won't go into it as it's already well known. He's also a more capable combatant than most Greater Daemons and purpose-dedicated Monstrous Creatures. way overblown

Mephiston- A guy that's the size of a basic marine and easily hidden, but with stats on par or greater than Greater Daemons and an array of powerful psychic powers. It's hard to find a better example of an author "breathing too much of the fumes" and putting too much of the overblown fluff into the actual rules.

Lysander- Signficantly more powerful than other fighty HQ's for his points.

Chenkov- pants on head slowed fluff involving a lot of retconning of the Valhallans.

Ok guys from what I have read lots of you don't like Draigo, Well you will be glad to hear that at a GW in medowhall they were doing the store birthday and to celebrate they did a 40k character smack-down, everyone chose a character and then we played. I chose Marnus calgar, not too over powered but I do see where some people dislike him. On my turns I first charged Cato Sicarius and killed him then I was charged by Please don't use this term on Dakka. Thanks.Reds8n Draigo, He wounded Marnus 3 times and Marnus still survived the final 3 rounds of combat to kill the bitch! Marnus killed about 500pts worth of enemy characters that game, and still survived to be the second man standing. Believe it or not but Tigerus won! (despite the fact the only thing he did was hide). So just goes to show some OP character can be beaten with some good old fashioned characters who have been kicken' for a while

Vaktathi wrote:Chenkov- pants on head slowed fluff involving a lot of retconning of the Valhallans.

Agreed. From what I read he was a Vallhallan with a reputation of grimly and stubbornly holding the line to the last man, in an army that is know for grimly and stubbornly holding the line to the last man. And he was a Special Character in 2nd Ed Guard, then didn't show up until 5th Ed as a completely retconned version.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.

Spoiler:

I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

Imotekh.
For reasons already listed. His fluff is kind of strange. It not only highlights Matt Ward's homicidal feelings towards orks (read the description for the annihilation barge in the codex for more evidence), but also makes Imotekh look like a big idiot when his summary hammers home that he is not.
So Imotekh beats Helbrecht, right? But he doesn't finish him off. Then Helbrecht comes back and trashes Imotek's flagship. So much for hyper-logical strategy.

Anrayker........ (Spelled correctly?)

My buddy likes to field anrayker in a command barge.

It is not that i think he is annoying, or OP, but me and my buddy have this little grudge match between him and my fire dragons.

Its actually rather funny, he painted a fire dragons head with a x mark on the command barge he flys around in.

Back in 5th ed, almost every game i playing with my buddy my fire dragons went after anrakyers command barge (mainly because it is the closest thing and my fire dragons can take care of his AV 13 pretty easy), and my fire dragons would blow up his barge, anrayker would get out and kill my fire dragons. This happens almost every game.

BUT this one time my fire dragons blew up anraykers command barge, he charged into my fire dragons, and whiffed all of his attacks. After that my squad proceeded to kill anrayker in close combat.

It was hilarious.

So for fun my buddie and i both agreed that my fire dragons and anrayker would have preferred enemy against each other.

Lots of hate for the new Necron characters then?

All the Necron SCs. Necrons with personalities? No. Just no.

Crowe, for being an utterly useless pile of horsegak.

That's all I can think of, for now...

About right!

Trench-Raider wrote:

So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

So you know no one who uses a special character's rules to show their own made up guy? With a made up model and homebrewed fluff? Because I've seen plenty of them, and Walrus probably has too. How about going with what he says rather than pointing a finger and shouting 'WAAC'.

All of them TBH, I find it silly that Marneus Calgar just shows up for a small 1.5k skirmish. They strip the creativity from peoples army IMO. Sorry.
...except Telion, he's my one exception.

Texanity wrote:All of them TBH, I find it silly that Marneus Calgar just shows up for a small 1.5k skirmish. They strip the creativity from peoples army IMO. Sorry.
...except Telion, he's my one exception.

Well its not necessarily a small skirmish remember, it could be a small part of a larger battle. Isn't that what they used to say?

Trench-Raider wrote:

So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

Back when I was making up my fluff for the 12th Pheltorian Rifles I had a 1st Lieutenant that was adapt at ambushes and flank attacks. 1st Lieutenant James Marchius. Now how would i represent him on the Battlefield? I can't without using him as a counts-as Al'rahem. What about if I wanted to use the Lord General of the 18th Imperial Army (the battlegroup the 12th is apart of.) This guy is much better trained then a captain (what a CCS is ) as has more authority and a greater leadership potential. So the only way I could think up of for Lord General Sir Alec Hudson to show up is as a Counts as of Creed. Its not a perfect match, but its better then a standard model.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

i don't like you or people like you.

This thread has me clapping like a reetarded seal.

All of the above. But i have a special little place in hell booked for the lolicron lords.

At least he didn't call us WAAC TFGs like the other guy. As a Crowerifier/ Deathwing player, you can imagine my response to that.

I'll put down Belial as being a top-notch guy though. He's good and cheap

liquidjoshi wrote:

I'll put down Belial as being a top-notch guy though. He's good and cheap

And as power klaws have pointed out to me on several occasions, missing eternal warrior.

Hate Draigo for fluff, Tau characters for being Tau, and I can't think of anyone else really. Most SM characters are fine by me. I used Mephy once to watch him cut apart by Fire Dragons. He isn't busted, there are tons of things that can kill him (melta squads, plasma squads, torrents of dark-lances, poisoned, instant death, and more).

Anything can be killed, the question is can it be killed by a reasonable amount of effort relative to the cost?

Reading Mephistons stats made me want to play Blood Angels. I hate him for that.

Vaktathi wrote: Anything can be killed, the question is can it be killed by a reasonable amount of effort relative to the cost?

250 points can be taken out in a single round of shooting by an 80 point unit. So...yes, he can be reasonably killed. 5 Sternguard (at 150) with their combi-plasma can kill him-put them in a drop pod and he can't hide, bringing their cost to 185. That's still 65 points less for a squad that is still a threat after they kill a big nasty. 3 armies that have cheap options against him. Mephiston vs. Skulltaker-one killing blow is all it takes. Abbaddon, if rumors are true of his AP2 weapon, costing the same as Mephiston, should kill him in a single round of combat. 4 armies that can easily deal with Mephy. Others take a bit more effort, but I'm pretty sure a Leman Russ Punisher (that's the 20 shot gun, right?) will wipe him out right fast too, for less points. I can keep this up...until I run out of armies.

Hah. Anyone complaining that they don't belong are likely just getting wrecked by SC's. I don't field them because I can't fit any of the rules in my fluff, but I have no problem with them. Yes, Eldrad slaps me around with doom and fortune. You betcha Draigowing is a helluva deathstar.

The list goes on.

But they're in the game, everyone can use them, and they can't outsmart Dakka. You just need to bring enough of it.

I hate every IC in all Ward produced products. The man just does not know when to say enough is enough.

Even if they are crazy expensive, its obviously worth it for how often they always pop up in every army.

Aun'shi because he isn't in the 2nd tau codex T^T

Imotech, because they called him Imotech...

First up....

i don't like you or people like you.

Hush, child. The adults are having a discussion here.

Now that bit of business is out of the way, back to the ongoing discussion...

So you know no one who uses a special character's rules to show their own made up guy? With a made up model and homebrewed fluff? Because I've seen plenty of them, and Walrus probably has too. How about going with what he says rather than pointing a finger and shouting 'WAAC'

Yes, yes.
I have seen a handful of examples of people shoehorning their own fluff into existing special characters. But they seem to be in the minority. Most people just plop out the GW aproved character and run with that.
You two are missing my point. I expressed my initial reaction to the introduction of special characters. The bottom line is that I feel they were bad for the game then and they are bad for the game now. GW should really go back to the previous policy of only permitting their use with opponent inclusion. That would pretty much kill their use in tournaments, and limit their unbalancing effect in friendly games as well.

TR

CURSE YOU IMOTECH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU AND YOUR THUNDER-BUDDIES.

Draigo

Ghaz, no matter what, I can NEVER kill him, even when I had 10 asslt termies on him, I rolled just horrid and he did manage to kil them....I wanted to cry

timetowaste85 wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Anything can be killed, the question is can it be killed by a reasonable amount of effort relative to the cost?

250 points can be taken out in a single round of shooting by an 80 point unit.

Can, but won't likely with anything near average rolls, not to mention cover, and not everyone has 80pt units with 5 meltaguns. This also requires getting that unit very close to him

So...yes, he can be reasonably killed.

Consistently?

5 Sternguard (at 150) with their combi-plasma can kill him-put them in a drop pod and he can't hide, bringing their cost to 185. That's still 65 points less for a squad that is still a threat after they kill a big nasty.

On average? He'll likely still be alive more often than not after that, and that's assuming no cover and that that drop pod lands where it needs to.

Mephiston vs. Skulltaker-one killing blow is all it takes.

Assuming mephy doesn't kill him first (he gets to go first and use his psychic powers to buff himself and all that), and given how often (or rather...not) Skulltaker is taken, it's not a likely matchup

Abbaddon, if rumors are true of his AP2 weapon, costing the same as Mephiston, should kill him in a single round of combat.

Abaddon costs more than Mephiston does, and lacks his more useful abilities.

Others take a bit more effort, but I'm pretty sure a Leman Russ Punisher (that's the 20 shot gun, right?) will wipe him out right fast too, for less points.

A 210pt Punisher with 3 HB's and a Heavy Stubber, putting out 32 shots, will on average put...0.85 wounds on Mephiston. T6 with a 2+sv is hard to get through, and there's a reason nobody takes the Punisher

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

All of them but not for these reasons. I don't have a problem with my opponent using them or if it's overpowered or not. I just want the anonymous guys because then they are mine, it's my little corner of the galaxy and i can forge a narrative involving captain X and librarian Y vs Chaos lord Z. This way they grow and evolve with the games and feel more organic so i never field any special characters.

Side note cassius is broken though i mean +2t FNP and bolter that wounds on 2+ for 25 pts? really?

I don't like Vulcan. Everybody wants to use him and everybody keeps telling me to use him. There is only one special character I have ever used in 40k (and still do) and that is Pedro Kantor although I have been considering Straken and Harker for my catachan to make them even more catachanish.

I hate Fateweaver because my Daemons are dependant on him to make games with Daemons close. Instead of just getting wiped out every time.

Trench-Raider wrote:

So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

Some armies are objectively impossible to build without a special character. Take Doublewing for example. It's how Ravenwing/Deathwing behave in fluff, yet if you do it, apparently you're a WAAC player.

Imotech.

What he passively does to shooty armies is just disgusting. Passively!

Some armies are objectively impossible to build without a special character. Take Doublewing for example. It's how Ravenwing/Deathwing behave in fluff, yet if you do it, apparently you're a WAAC player.

Read my original post in this thread. I lament the fact that GW has decided to tie certain army changing universal rules to the use of a specific special character instead of offering the option another way.

It's something that is motivated purely by their wanting to sell more character models.

TR

To be honest, I hate them all.

But I hate Draigo especially.

I don't mind characters with ine or two little booster rules and a piece of fancy equipment but with some characters (especially in the new codex's) are just over powered cheap units which everyone takes. Grrrrr

I like them myself but then again I would like to buy all of them from a painting stand point. They look like a blast to paint. Plus it doesn't make since to me to say look at our awesomely sculpted special character models but sorry you can't use them 90% of the time for fear of somebody getting their feelings ruffled.

On topic mephiston is the only sc that stands out to me as poorly thought. He's great but I see a lot of blood angel army bat reps. He can die but generally I only see him die rarely. Most BA players make sure you. Can't draw line of site to him until he's in your face. Not saying that it doesn't happen but I find myself always rooting for the other said because he makes it seem so one sided.

Mephy folds like a wet towel to terminators now. It's pretty funny actually.

Any SoB character, just the fact that there really aren't any other options for HQ in their army.

Trench-Raider wrote:

So you assume that anyone who uses a Special Character is someone who can't make up their own fluff? Apart from that being incredibly condescending, what about those that DO? What about the countless counts-as Characters with names and back stories?

That was my thought when I first encountered such characters. You are making assuptions about my current view on them. My first impression when I see a special character on the field these days (especially when it comes to certain ones that are widely regarded as being over the top) is that I'm dealing with a WAAC player.

Let me guess. You make routine use of such models and my comment hit a little too close to home, right?

TR

I play Black Templars and still play with Special Characters (you know, the ones that are worse than our generic counterparts) so you can take your silly accusation somewhere else. I firmly believe that there are no OP characters. Everyone has a weakness that can be exploited.

But hey, what do I know? I'm obviously a WAAC no-fluffer who's destroying this game...

From a writers standpoint, I see plenty of reasons why a chapter, ork, kabal, cadre, regiment, ect would have a major character there.

Vulkan is a nice point, I was reading his wiki today at work because I love the Salamanders (and Templars, and Ultra, and Fists, and Flesh Tearers, and Soul Drinkers, and it goes on) based soley on their fluff, in his case he can take command and lead all of the Salamanders in the name of acquiring another relic. Helbretch is the same, he can lead any Chapter crusade at his will (yay for bonuses to hunting psykers!) . Ghaz is well, he is what he is.

I don't hate any of the Special characters as most people don't bother to add fluff to the battle and I routinely narrate the campaign outloud. I've been met with boos, just be quiet, and laughs (tends to depend on who has the stick stuck where). I just let it go, and build ALL of my own fluff.


Rambling aside, I fought with a GK group with my Guard in a 1k tourney vs Tau and Chaos and my allie drops draigo on all of the enemy troops and draigo jumps aboard the rape train and doesn't stop till the game ends (he was chasing a tau hammerhead across the map)

A special place for draigo indeed. Though he is alone there.

Mephiston. He is the only character in the game that automatically cause all respect for the player to be lost.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
I play Black Templars and still play with Special Characters (you know, the ones that are worse than our generic counterparts) so you can take your silly accusation somewhere else. I firmly believe that there are no OP characters. Everyone has a weakness that can be exploited.

As a deamons player I'd say that's not really true. A swooping Fateweaver is 6s to hit, T5 and a re-rollable 3+ invulnerable save.

Mephy is love or hate - any army that can take boot-loads of AP2 firepower can laugh him off, anyone that doesn't will have problems.

timthehierodule wrote: f***y Draigo

Usage of an insulting word such as that isn't necessary at all Tim.
Moving on, Definitely Marneus Calgar. A majorly overblown character. Punched an avatar to death? Held a Wall all by himself for a day? He did What? one of the few recorded proper defeaters of the tyranids? Pffff. O-v-e-r-b-l-o-w-n.
As well as that he has a poop model. And he sucks (Notbitter)

phoenixrisin wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

i don't like you or people like you.

aha, that made me laugh so much XD

I have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.



anyway, on topic, I have to say I dont like fighting fate weaver. he's hard to kill and a pain in the ass :/ oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Trench-Raider wrote:I lament the fact that GW has decided to tie certain army changing universal rules to the use of a specific special character instead of offering the option another way.

It's something that is motivated purely by their wanting to sell more character models.

I really, really hate tying the certain army-wide rules or composition options to the special characters. I love building and equipping my own characters, but if you want to run certain types of armies, you are forced to use the special characters. Of course you can make make your of counts-as characters, but you're still stuck with GW chosen wargear.

I'd wish that regular characters would just have options to buy certain special rules and then there would be no need for special characters.

Farsight.

Just hate him.

I don't particularly enjoy using any of them, I prefer my own fluff. My IG can get along without the named HQs though Creed does do a good job when I want to play a foot list. Black Templars it is a total waste and with the current codex, I can make a much better character with a 2+/3++ and Eternal Warrior (pray to god we keep the ability to give this to our Marshals in our revamped codex).

My most hated character though is Eldrad. Eldar are my favorite race to play, and my favorite race from the lore perspective. The fact that I have to play a dead guy for my "uber awesome" character just bugs the crap out of me. It's like a Vietnam video game, they are never good because you know you are going to lose no matter what you do. However, not using him is ridiculous as I'm only 20 point shy of his cost and he brings together the Eldar codex so nicely. Long Story short I sat down and made up special lore for a character that would function a lot like him. I bet you can't guess what I called him!!

have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.

Do you have any clue how silly and juvenile this post sounds, especially the "just deal with it" part? Any clue at all?
But then I note your 4channer kiddie meme avatar an your being a kid according to your profile age, so I doubt it.

Run along now....

TR

So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

daedalus-templarius wrote:So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

Apparently, now if you are fielding special characters to WAAC thats a different story, but going "Hey look I like this character, and I want to field him" then I would just tell you go screw yourself. I am willing to bet there are plenty of counts as models that have names like: Uriel Ventris, Honsou, Ibram Gaunt, Colonel Schaeffer etc.

Abaddon. His S8 I6 claw and his sword which only gives him more attacks.

I play IG, and actually field Creed very often. With that said, I hate facing him.

Wardragoon wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

Apparently, now if you are fielding special characters to WAAC thats a different story, but going "Hey look I like this character, and I want to field him" then I would just tell you go screw yourself. I am willing to bet there are plenty of counts as models that have names like: Uriel Ventris, Honsou, Ibram Gaunt, Colonel Schaeffer etc.

So, "I like this character and want to use them in my army" is something you respond to with "screw yourself".

Wow, guess I uh, wouldn't be playing with you ever?

I don't have a lot that I hate, most are annoying. The vindicare assassin is my most hated character in the 40k universe.

Vaktathi wrote:Vulkan He'stan. Went a full year before I saw a C:SM list that didn't include this guy. Such a no-brainer auto-include for 5E SM armies, he made all the stuff you'd take masses of anything better, and was more capable than an equivalent captain, for a negligible points increase.

Fateweaver- A gimmick centerpiece whom I've never seen used in anything but heavily khornate armies.

The Stormlord- Another gimmick HQ that gives huge strategic advantages and a very powerful ability to inflict great harm on an opponents army (especially stuff like Tyranid Warriors, Heavy Weapon squads, and light/medium vehicles), simply by being included in an army list. He's intensely hard to kill and all his abilities work without him even needing to be alive or indeed for the owning player to do anything. He simply is taken and gives a massive boost to an army without actually needing to do anything with him. The perfect definition of a "Crutch".


Draigo- his fluff is atrocious, I won't go into it as it's already well known. He's also a more capable combatant than most Greater Daemons and purpose-dedicated Monstrous Creatures. way overblown

Mephiston- A guy that's the size of a basic marine and easily hidden, but with stats on par or greater than Greater Daemons and an array of powerful psychic powers. It's hard to find a better example of an author "breathing too much of the fumes" and putting too much of the overblown fluff into the actual rules.

second all of these

and add in these:

Eldrad - Costs so little for being so good. Can't remember the last time I saw an eldar army without him. Even I would take him.

Marbo - Stupidly good and he competes with nothing for elite slots.

Crowe - Note how GK have special characters that make their best three units troops. DE have special characters that make two of their worse units troops.

Marius Calgar - I have all ultramarines, and the leader of the ultramarines is even worse.

Kheradruakh the Decapitator - So bad he is never taken. He takes up room in my codex. I had to pay to have his awful rules printed. I have less useable characters in my army because he is there.

daedalus-templarius wrote:

Wardragoon wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:So anyone using a special character is WAAC?

Ok...

Apparently, now if you are fielding special characters to WAAC thats a different story, but going "Hey look I like this character, and I want to field him" then I would just tell you go screw yourself. I am willing to bet there are plenty of counts as models that have names like: Uriel Ventris, Honsou, Ibram Gaunt, Colonel Schaeffer etc.

So, "I like this character and want to use them in my army" is something you respond to with "screw yourself".

Wow, guess I uh, wouldn't be playing with you ever?

woops that was a typo on my part I mean if someone threw a fit about someone doing the "I like this character etc...." I would tell the person throwing the fit to screw themselves, bad typo was bad

There is a special place in my heart for Mephiston-he's the bane of my existence, and a 50% chance of having Iron Arm by swapping for biomancy and making him a T 7-9 Eternal Warrior (Strength, I don't care about as much).My current criticism of SC is that the BT and Tau have not gotten a FAQ letting us take special characters below 1500. They are some of my favorite models that GW has produced (Grimaldus being my all-time favorite).

I think they are all cheesy. Especially Tyranid SCs, and I say that as a Tyranid player. If the Hive cranked out a beast that was totally awesome, why wouldn't it just crank more out? Special characters in the Hive . . . beyond stupid. GW giving half a turd about Tyranid fluff is a stupid expectation though I guess.

As to why I think SCs are cheesy? First, they should be limited to games of a high enough value. Your 40 man SM army gets in a scrap with some Orks and Mephiston comes to help. Yeah . . .
SCs also seem like a way to give any army ridiculous stuff and write it off as being "such a heroic character" that he defies everything possible. Mephiston has the same toughness as a Tyrannofex that probably has more than 25x his mass? Cheese. Really stinky cheese. Cheese that gives teens hardons but still cheese.

TheCaptain wrote:Hah. Anyone complaining that they don't belong are likely just getting wrecked by SC's. I don't field them because I can't fit any of the rules in my fluff, but I have no problem with them. Yes, Eldrad slaps me around with doom and fortune. You betcha Draigowing is a helluva deathstar.

The list goes on.

But they're in the game, everyone can use them, and they can't outsmart Dakka. You just need to bring enough of it.

You're absolutely right. As I mentioned I hate Tau characters, I'm sick of getting slapped around by Aun'Va. That guy is a pain in the ass to deal with. If I have to face him two or three more times, I'll probably burn my Warhammer army, as well as my clothing and go running into the sunset, waving my arms around and trying to get hit by traffic.

Okay...we done with stupid comments? Good. Some of us hate certain special characters because of fluff. A blanket statement that anyone who hates certain special characters MUST be getting stomped by them is...well, stupid. Just as stupid as my comment was. And believe me, my comment WAS stupid. But it was stupid to make a point. And that point is....to see how many times I can say "stupid" in a single post.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

Must say I sort of agree with trench raider. How GW is shoehorning in FOC/USR changes as bound to special characters is annoying as hell. Special force organizations should be a captain/chapter master ability to correspond with librarian's psychic powers and chaplains doing their thing (being really angry?). Commander with TDA makes termies troops, commander with JP makes ASM troops etc... Another better idea was the old 4E traits system.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.

Practically this. I don't mind if people make their own, but they just annoy me, especially when you need them to unlock troops. I mean I can understand Draigo unlocking Paladins as troops since he alone has the authority to summon so many, and the same with the sword dude whose name I'm forgetting, but I have to take Coteaz to get henchmen as troops? Now I can never have a fluffy Ordo Xenos force without being forced to rely on allies.

Trench-Raider wrote:

have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.

Do you have any clue how silly and juvenile this post sounds, especially the "just deal with it" part? Any clue at all?
But then I note your 4channer kiddie meme avatar an your being a kid according to your profile age, so I doubt it.

Run along now....

TR

do you have any clue how "juvenile" giving people a hard time over their choice of HQ is and making the game unpleasant for them, and how "silly" it is to assume that all people who use SC are power gamers? All because you think that named characters are a bad idea?


anyway, I'm off to remove the Decapitator from my army. wouldnt want to be a power gamer, and we all know what a huge beatstick he is so it really isn't fair of me to take him anyway -.-

Trench-Raider wrote:

have to agree, the mind set of "he's using a SC, lets go make fun of him hur dur" is just rude and ignorant. SC are a part of the game so deal with it, using them doesn't make you a WAAC player and certainly doesnt show lack of imagination. I prefer to fight SC as what to you might be "Tim the awesome warboss, slayer of nations and bane of the universe" is just a warboss to me.

Do you have any clue how silly and juvenile this post sounds, especially the "just deal with it" part? Any clue at all?
But then I note your 4channer kiddie meme avatar an your being a kid according to your profile age, so I doubt it.

Run along now....

TR

What, as opposed to your posts? You've been passively aggressive in every single post in the thread so far, implying that, among other things, I'm a WAAC fluff hater because I use SCs every now and then.

Besides not liking them for already stated reasons (SCs showing up everywhere, which is a valid complaint), why are they so horribly broken? Wouldn't it be better to buff generic HQ choices so they were tactically viable in comparison to the SCs? Space Marine Librarians are a good example, they're viable HQ choices despite not being SCs. Comparatively, Chaplains and Captains are gakky, because they don't add much (except Bike Captains).

I hate SCs because they allow GW to make the kind of stupid that is the warphead upgrade scheme: reroll your random and if you wanted to make him at all special to you - stuff you take Zogwort.

So yes, I take zogwort, because I like the way he plays, but I would LOVE to make my own unique warphead.

Gonna side with the screaming mob against SCs. I play GK (shushy you) and even i hate my HQ choices. In small games i run an OM, fluffy and i love the little blighter, running around daemonsword and all. And for bigger? still my OM, but with a generic libby. Only problem is, GK kind of dont have a huge amount of choice with HQs generally. Either take the complete gak SCs, or shoehorn a generic one without much choices.

GMs and brother captains have a good bit of choice, but most things are overcosted (45 points for a shorter ranged assault cannon? really?) to the point i mostly see the GM taken for his one rule, and the captain not at all. Champions are well documented gak that could have been awesome and fluffy, or should have just been treated similar to BT champions (not to steal your thunder guys ). The libby holds a special place in my heart since it went through a team game and ruined 3 LRBTs and 2 LRCs. A good deal of upgrades etc, but again, other than grenades, theres nothing really unique. its the same stuff as i can give to my basic troops, but for a randomly different cost (even SM captains have it better, least they CAN take fluffy, if less seen stuff.)

So leaves me with my inquisitors. Love the fluff, and what does GW do? shoehorn them to fit. Yes, because an OM army book really needs the OX and OH. 3 HQs should not share one page like this. Dont get me wrong, as iv said i love my OM and hes pulled me through hilariously at times. But randomly losing the choice of a daemonsword because i take TDA? Does the holiness of the TDA repel my sword or something? Rather than trying to cram 3 HQs onto a page should have just given the OM some better thought out choices. Anyway i seem to have gone a bit ranty hear apologies.


For those who actually bared with me through that (sorry again), my point WAS, as a GK, even a fluffy HQ is hard to come by, when you only have the choice of giving him the same stuff as your rank and file guys for a higher cost.

Special characters are here to stay for the duration and whether one likes it or not, we must account for them when making an army list.

That said, Mephiston is loathsome to me. As an ork player we have little options for AP2 shooting that aren't abysmally expensive, or too random to be effective. I've seen mobs of boys regularly broken by mephy alone. And that's with the ork boys getting the charge. It's just really rough to face him.

any ultramarines character that isnt either cato sicarius or sergeant telion. i especially cant stand calgar, he is the meaning of arrogance....

lysander. just a death sentence to any IG army

boss snikrot, this one always gets behind the lines and wipes out all my command units every goddammn game

Psycannons have the same profile as assault cannons (on Terminators) except they're S7 instead of 6. They're expensive on GMs because GMs are BS6 and because it's a damn good weapon.

I will probably get ALOT of hate but Kaldor Draigo, Castellan Crowe....
Pretty much anything GK...
Also I absolutely HATE Ghazghkull Thraka when I play against him on the tabletop but love him if I play him, as goes with DoC.
And sometimes I just hate the Necrons characters. I mean some of them are awsome but most are just like Matt Ward, really annoying in theory and will never go away no matter how much you stare coldly at them and pray to the God/s...
But knowing me (unfortunately...) I will probably end up with an army including these guys and a GK army.

Edit: And about that if you have an IC then you are a WAAC person is just stupid. I like most characters in both WHFB and 40k and use many of them regularly in my games (Belial, Joseph Bugman mainly) but I roll them on the battlefield 'cause I love their fluff and the iconic significance of one of the most remembered heroes in the faction and being able to continue their story. Everyone has a different opinion though, just throwing in my own 2 cents
-Bax123

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

Im using Fateweaver alot (basiclly just so that my Daemons can stay alive, and I like him) and I can understand the hate of him. I like him thou, his story and on the table top but I don't mind if he loses his super "reroll all saves" ability if it would make my Daemons more survivable.

Then I that I hate Draigos fluff. But its all just a game by the 4chaos gods (they are not allowed to kill him so they try to force him into each others realm by different means of cunning).

Mephiston I can only say that I agree with all the bad things being said about him.

Imothekh, now that there is risk of nightfight at round 5+ he is even more nastier. 1guy should not be able to hit the whole enemy army every turn. and with S8?? This guy was to good before and his fluff makes me sick, but still it could be worse.

Illuminor thou is the guy I hate the most since he is just a ripoff from Urien Rakarth/Ku'gath/Fabius Bile. But ofc he is "better" and more "cool" and even does that C'tan can't do...

Actually I don't think I like any of the Necron special characters....

Then again even if I dont really dislike most of the special characters and got no big problem of people using them, I really would like to se a bigger possibility to make your own heros with unique abilities and all.
The reason I like the CCS and Chaos Lord so much is since they got a bunch of options, Thou saddly no special rules :/

itisknown wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

agreed XD even if you could put him in a squad it would be something but damn, he's just a kill point waiting to happen :3 best thing you can hope for is keep him in reserve and hope you only roll low when it comes to bringing him on :/

itisknown wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

Rends on a 4+ and has Cleansing Flame; hardly worthless.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

itisknown wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

Rends on a 4+ and has Cleansing Flame; hardly worthless.

I dunno, he cant rend anything after being shot by a melta :/ if he could have a squad I would love to take him but for now, he just sits behind a rhino or walks up to my opponents gun line with a blindfold on and cigarette hanging out of his mouth

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Psycannons have the same profile as assault cannons (on Terminators) except they're S7 instead of 6. They're expensive on GMs because GMs are BS6 and because it's a damn good weapon.

Yes, GMs are BS6, and im pretty sure i pay the points for BS6 in the basecost already.

doc1234 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Psycannons have the same profile as assault cannons (on Terminators) except they're S7 instead of 6. They're expensive on GMs because GMs are BS6 and because it's a damn good weapon.

Yes, GMs are BS6, and im pretty sure i pay the points for BS6 in the basecost already.

Put it this way then: no other MEQ HQs get Assault Cannons as personal weapons. You get a BS6 weapon that gets precision shots and that isn't a one-shot weapon. The ability to threaten anything from 24" is very good. I'd probably agree that it's not worth 40+ points, but it's not monstrously overcosted.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Psycannons have the same profile as assault cannons (on Terminators) except they're S7 instead of 6. They're expensive on GMs because GMs are BS6 and because it's a damn good weapon.

Yes, GMs are BS6, and im pretty sure i pay the points for BS6 in the basecost already.

Put it this way then: no other MEQ HQs get Assault Cannons as personal weapons. You get a BS6 weapon that gets precision shots and that isn't a one-shot weapon. The ability to threaten anything from 24" is very good. I'd probably agree that it's not worth 40+ points, but it's not monstrously overcosted.

moved it here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/467416.page dont want to derail the SC thread

Draigoward... Simply NO!

do you have any clue how "juvenile" giving people a hard time over their choice of HQ is and making the game unpleasant for them, and how "silly" it is to assume that all people who use SC are power gamers? All because you think that named characters are a bad idea?

You know, I thought that "I know you are, but what am I?" sort of comeback was juvenile when I first heard in gradeschool. What does that say about you? Do you have something constructive to ad, or so you need to be dismissed as well?

Wouldn't it be better to buff generic HQ choices so they were tactically viable in comparison to the SCs? Space Marine Librarians are a good example, they're viable HQ choices despite not being SCs. Comparatively, Chaplains and Captains are gakky, because they don't add much (except Bike Captains).

I tend to agree. Aside from the tying them to army universal rule selection, the big thing that makes special characters so attractive to players is that on the whole* they are superior to the normal HQ choices.

The best solution is to go back to the old convention of making the use of special characters by opponent's consent only. That would remove them from competative play and encourage GW to balance special characters better as the more OP/cheesy ones would fall into disuse when most people refused to play against the worst offenders. Would you williing play against say Mephiston if given the option to politely opt out? Most would. It's not going to happen of course as that would cost GW money because the sale of certain over-priced character models would go down.

And "politely opt out" is the key here. That's how I routinely did it back then. I don't remember most of my opponents getting too bent out of shape when I simply stated that I would rather not play with special characters. Some players were even ready for such a thing, bringing out an alternate list they had broght along in case of such a refusal. In other cases, it took a few minutes to swap a couple of points around and they were ready to roll. No worries at all. I can only remember one occasion were I actually got a bit terse with a player about the issue. In this case the player had deployed his entire army without pointing out the special character he was using. I asked him "is that supposed to be x-character(I dont recall which one it was at this point and the detail is not important), or are you just using the model?" "it's him" my opponent replied. At this point I said something like "You know, you are supposed ask before fielding him and I'd rather not play with any special characters. Can you swap him out?" My opponent got whiney and petulant, stating that he wanted to use the character and that his list was built around it. He dug in is heels and was refusing to alter his list. I told him to "find someone else to play", packed my miniatures, and found another oponent in the shop. Now this was very much the exception. Most people in the 'use with opponent's permision" enviorment are awake enough to make plans in case someone actually refuses.

TR
*-Note I say "on the whole". I have to laugh how many people are throwing out the "but..but such and such character is not OP at all!!1111!!!" card. I fully realise that there are examples of lackluster special characters out there. But they are the exception. Like most stereotypes, the perception that special characters are over-powered compared to normal chouces is based in reality and the rarity of the exception helps to prove the rule.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

itisknown wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:oh and +1 to crowe being useless :3

Haha, yeah. Was going to include him in a GK list, basically because I liked his model, but then I read his rules. Nope. You'd think that someone who doesn't have a power weapon in an army where even the lowliest foot soldier gets one standard issue would have some kind of buff to make up for it. But instead he gets drawbacks.

Rends on a 4+ and has Cleansing Flame; hardly worthless.

Apparently he's good at dealing with hordes. Guard stance, cleansing flame. Wait for return blows, let 35/36 non powerfist attacks bounce off his 2+ save, laugh as you catch the horde in a sweeping advance. That's his only good application, aside from suici- Heroic sacrifice on an enemy IC or MC.

I still think he's useless though.

Trench-Raider wrote:

do you have any clue how "juvenile" giving people a hard time over their choice of HQ is and making the game unpleasant for them, and how "silly" it is to assume that all people who use SC are power gamers? All because you think that named characters are a bad idea?

You know, I thought that "I know you are, but what am I?" sort of comeback was juvenile when I first heard in gradeschool. What does that say about you? Do you have something constructive to ad, or so you need to be dismissed as well?

Wouldn't it be better to buff generic HQ choices so they were tactically viable in comparison to the SCs? Space Marine Librarians are a good example, they're viable HQ choices despite not being SCs. Comparatively, Chaplains and Captains are gakky, because they don't add much (except Bike Captains).

I tend to agree. Aside from the tying them to army universal rule selection, the big thing that makes special characters so attractive to players is that on the whole* they are superior to the normal HQ choices.

The best solution is to go back to the old convention of making the use of special characters by opponent's consent only. That would remove them from competative play and encourage GW to balance special characters better as the more OP/cheesy ones would fall into disuse when most people refused to play against the worst offenders. Would you williing play against say Mephiston if given the option to politely opt out? Most would. It's not going to happen of course as that would cost GW money because the sale of certain over-priced character models would go down.

And "politely opt out" is the key here. That's how I routinely did it back then. I don't remember most of my opponents getting too bent out of shape when I simply stated that I would rather not play with special characters. Some players were even ready for such a thing, bringing out an alternate list they had broght along in case of such a refusal. In other cases, it took a few minutes to swap a couple of points around and they were ready to roll. No worries at all. I can only remember one occasion were I actually got a bit terse with a player about the issue. In this case the player had deployed his entire army without pointing out the special character he was using. I asked him "is that supposed to be x-character(I dont recall which one it was at this point and the detail is not important), or are you just using the model?" "it's him" my opponent replied. At this point I said something like "You know, you are supposed ask before fielding him and I'd rather not play with any special characters. Can you swap him out?" My opponent got whiney and petulant, stating that he wanted to use the character and that his list was built around it. He dug in is heels and was refusing to alter his list. I told him to "find someone else to play", packed my miniatures, and found another oponent in the shop. Now this was very much the exception. Most people in the 'use with opponent's permision" enviorment are awake enough to make plans in case someone actually refuses.

TR
*-Note I say "on the whole". I have to laugh how many people are throwing out the "but..but such and such character is not OP at all!!1111!!!" card. I fully realise that there are examples of lackluster special characters out there. But they are the exception. Like most stereotypes, the perception that special characters are over-powered compared to normal chouces is based in reality and the rarity of the exception helps to prove the rule.

You're still dodging my question though: what SCs are OP? I'd personally just rather see normal characters as a viable choice and leave it at that. Why are SCs intrinsically bad?

You also still have the option of declining to play against SCs, the entire game is opponent's conscent after all.

Eldrad. Makes enemy psykers nearly useless, can use powers that allows units to reroll almost anything, has a 4+ invul and has an AP2 weapon in close combat. I've never seen an Eldar army list without him.

You're still dodging my question though: what SCs are OP?

I'm not dodging anything. Most of them are OP. Would you like a detailed list of offenders? Shall I start with mephiston and work my way down?

. Why are SCs intrinsically bad?

I outlined the problems I had with special characters in my very first post on the thread. Shall I link or quote it?

You also still have the option of declining to play against SCs, the entire game is opponent's conscent after all

Yes, you always have the "I'll take my toys and go home" choice. But that is what you call a "false choice" or "false delima" in that you offer an option, but it's an unacceptable option and thus not a true choice......It's kind of like when your wife tells you "You don't have to go to my friend's wedding if you won't want to", knowning full well that if you shouldd make that choice you will pay for it in the future.

What about in a competative play enviorment were making that choice would result in forfeiting the round?
It would be far better to return to "opponent consent only" and give players a real choice. As it is now, you pretty much have to deal with it or go home.

TR

and....

I've never seen an Eldar army list without him.

You need to get out more. I ran one just last night without him!

Please, start listing them. All you've got so far is that you don't like SCs because you don't like that they're everywhere. If I want to play with Lysander, for example, why should I be limited from doing so? There are no arbitrary restrictions on Predator Destructors, why should there be for HQs?

Your special character, because it's probably xenos or traitor scum!

In all seriousness I hate Coteaz due to his cheap and spammy nature. Every list I see him in seems rather bland and full of .

To all the Eldrad haters, Eldar kinda need him to function competitively, or run 2 seers. Don't get me wrong, I went to a tourney with only a farseer, but that's coz everything else is so damn expensive.

Our farseers are over costed, like everything else, so Eldrad is one of the few choices for HQ that's a good price.

Also, ANY farseer can take the runes of warding to mess with other psykers, so don't hate eldrad for that


And Trench-Raider, for being supposedly mature and an adult, you have spent the entire thread calling people childish and therefore their opinion is invalid. Your opinion is your own, and I respect that, but because you have yours it doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.


OP: I hate the swarmlord. Not that he ever touches my eldar army, just what he can do... Also, I seen a warboss and a unit of 10 nobs charge into him, and I admit it was rather funny watching my friends face as he proceeded to ID the warboss and a few nobs, then run the rest down, while taking no wounds.


Von Chogg

It would be far better to return to "opponent consent only" and give players a real choice. As it is now, you pretty much have to deal with it or go home.

You have the choice now to decline anyone you feel like in any sort of match. What you really want is a "This rule benefits my own personal views, so thus I can tell you to off if I see a hint of a SC without social consequence of looking like a petulant child."

I'm pretty much forced to use my SC's however, the days of Master of Ravenwing or Master of Deathwing are long gone. Though I do use Azreal and Ezekial for fun sometimes, but I wish they would bring back Asmodai.

Von Chogg wrote:To all the Eldrad haters, Eldar kinda need him to function competitively, or run 2 seers.

Yes, but that is bloody annoying. You shouldn't need to use special characters for the army to function. Of course this is not so much of an issue with special characters themselves as with many standard HQs being lacklustre.

Trench-Raider wrote:

do you have any clue how "juvenile" giving people a hard time over their choice of HQ is and making the game unpleasant for them, and how "silly" it is to assume that all people who use SC are power gamers? All because you think that named characters are a bad idea?

You know, I thought that "I know you are, but what am I?" sort of comeback was juvenile when I first heard in gradeschool. What does that say about you? Do you have something constructive to ad, or so you need to be dismissed as well?

Wouldn't it be better to buff generic HQ choices so they were tactically viable in comparison to the SCs? Space Marine Librarians are a good example, they're viable HQ choices despite not being SCs. Comparatively, Chaplains and Captains are gakky, because they don't add much (except Bike Captains).

I tend to agree. Aside from the tying them to army universal rule selection, the big thing that makes special characters so attractive to players is that on the whole* they are superior to the normal HQ choices.

The best solution is to go back to the old convention of making the use of special characters by opponent's consent only. That would remove them from competative play and encourage GW to balance special characters better as the more OP/cheesy ones would fall into disuse when most people refused to play against the worst offenders. Would you williing play against say Mephiston if given the option to politely opt out? Most would. It's not going to happen of course as that would cost GW money because the sale of certain over-priced character models would go down.

And "politely opt out" is the key here. That's how I routinely did it back then. I don't remember most of my opponents getting too bent out of shape when I simply stated that I would rather not play with special characters. Some players were even ready for such a thing, bringing out an alternate list they had broght along in case of such a refusal. In other cases, it took a few minutes to swap a couple of points around and they were ready to roll. No worries at all. I can only remember one occasion were I actually got a bit terse with a player about the issue. In this case the player had deployed his entire army without pointing out the special character he was using. I asked him "is that supposed to be x-character(I dont recall which one it was at this point and the detail is not important), or are you just using the model?" "it's him" my opponent replied. At this point I said something like "You know, you are supposed ask before fielding him and I'd rather not play with any special characters. Can you swap him out?" My opponent got whiney and petulant, stating that he wanted to use the character and that his list was built around it. He dug in is heels and was refusing to alter his list. I told him to "find someone else to play", packed my miniatures, and found another oponent in the shop. Now this was very much the exception. Most people in the 'use with opponent's permision" enviorment are awake enough to make plans in case someone actually refuses.

TR
*-Note I say "on the whole". I have to laugh how many people are throwing out the "but..but such and such character is not OP at all!!1111!!!" card. I fully realise that there are examples of lackluster special characters out there. But they are the exception. Like most stereotypes, the perception that special characters are over-powered compared to normal chouces is based in reality and the rarity of the exception helps to prove the rule.

Have to say mate, you are coming across as a bit of an obstinate . Just an observation.

Back on topic, if you can't defeat a SC, then your doing something wrong, usually not bringing enough fire-power. For a usual Uber-beatstick it's 250-275 pts. For that you could get 50 Guardsmen, an LRC or whatever; No one is immune to copious amounts of fire-power.

Futhermore, most people don't like being told that they can't use something they were most likely excited to use. The only one I can think of that are OP (IMHO) is Draigo.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Please, start listing them. All you've got so far is that you don't like SCs because you don't like that they're everywhere. If I want to play with Lysander, for example, why should I be limited from doing so? There are no arbitrary restrictions on Predator Destructors, why should there be for HQs?

I'll be waiting next to Almighty.
I guess all SCs might be a bit too much so I have another request, if I may. I've used Asurmen, Fuegan, Karandras and Maugan Ra in a single game. Could you rate those overpowered imbalanced four heroes next to weaklings like Rune Priest and Wolf Lord (I was playing against SW) on a scale from 1 to 10?

Why all the hate for SCs? Seriously, there is nothing wrong with them. They all have a weakness, and none are insta-win buttons, so quite what the problem is in terms of gameplay is a mystery to me.

Every single Necron SC. A million convoluted special rules that make them a pain to play against. Of course, that could be said about the entire codex.
The Stormlord also gets a special place on the list. As Vakathi has said, he's a massive crutch and nothing more. It wouldn't be so bad if he at least introduced a new way to play, or a new strategy to build around, but as he is, you just take him and he already turns the match in your favour.

I dislike Draigo's fluff intensely (also not a fan of his model, but I use a converted GKT anyway), but I need him for my Paladin list.

I can already tell the art I was planning to do for a 'Trials of Draigo' story-piece is going to be a big hit with all of you.

As in the internet cartoon "Trials of Draigo?" Those guys made him great. Carry on daedalus.

Well my main thing is the fluff and the only characters fluff I dont like would be

Magnus : I actually like the UM but this guy annoys the daylights out of me for some reason. I dont mind the other UM SCs (I simply need to ignore Ward's blown out of proportion fluff. I like the way "The Chapters Due" portrayed them all.)

Draigo : Again, fluff of him.


The rest, I dont really have an opinion on or I dont mind that much. (Minus Blood Angels as I hate everything about their fluff and proced to ignore it completely) Im sure there is one more character I dont like but I cant think of him now. *shrugs*

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

Spoiler:

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

I disagree in the extreme with most of your points.

I love using characters like Fateweaver and Skulltaker, and while I've received flak for using them, I love the backstory to them. I already have an army with my own background to it, but I highly enjoy usage of the characters because I ether love the background or the models. I'm in no way a WAAC player, and am terrible at the game.

I'll agree with the use of characters by players who don't care for the games background or use it just to win, but it doesn't make me a bad person to use a character I like?

Abaddon, because he's totally incompetent. Although, at this point, I feel it'd be like hating a small animal, or young child. He's just too stupid to succeed, so how much can you blame him?

As for which I hate to see on the table, none of them. There are no special characters that are any kind of problem for the game.

Really/? We're insulting poor poor 'Baddy now? Poor sod...

I would argue that every Black Crusade so far has been a success. Abaddon is cool in my books.

DarknessEternal wrote:Abaddon, because he's totally incompetent. Although, at this point, I feel it'd be like hating a small animal, or young child. He's just too stupid to succeed, so how much can you blame him?

How has he failed? None of his Black Crusades so far has been intended to take Terra if that is what you are judging them by. The Gothic War (12th BC) got him exactly what he wanted and given where they left the 13th BC off his forces are winning.

Trazyn. I loathe WBB with every fiber of my being, and he basically has super-WBB.

To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

hotsauceman1 wrote:To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

Lysander is very powerful for 200, no question. But tell me how balanced Long Fangs are next to some other HS, especially when SW codex was just released. Would it be OK to say that HS is broken and you should not play with HS at all? Or maybe that in every part of the game there are some things incredibly powerful for their cost, some are appropriately priced, some are meh, and there are some just damn awful?
Why can't I use something good (or sometimes bad) because in the same category exists something insanely powerful. Let's ban the whole game then.

hotsauceman1 wrote:To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

And Outflank to the entire army. And bikes as troops. Besides, stubborn (which you forgot on Lysander) is really pointless over ATSKNF in 6th and the Bolter Drill only works for the squad he's in. Lysander's a beatstick with almost no utility, whereas Khan unlocks a completely different type of list.

hotsauceman1 wrote:To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

I'll agree with that example, however, one does not mean all special characters. Certain characters are OP, such as Draigo and the listed Lysander, while others are just simply taken for fun such as the Blue Scribes or Lucius to name a few.

It's like saying one in a hundred sweets tastes sour, it doesn't mean they all taste sour.

hotsauceman1 wrote:To those decrying that SC are not overly powerful, i list this, lysander, for 200 points you get a 2+ armor 3+ Inv, twin linked bolters, Bolster defences, EW and str 10 TH that is master crafted
Whilee Khan is 205 points and he gets a bike, power armor and a sword that on a hit of 6 cause Instant Death.
Now this may be me being biased, but its seems kinda overly powerful for 200 points.

Khan can outflank terminators in landraiders, alongside entire squads of sternguard and what have you.

People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

-Loki- wrote:People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

At what the special rules? Oh wait same problem.

Draigo, Mephy, Sanguinor, Eldrad, The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

doc1234 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

At what the special rules? Oh wait same problem.

...did you honestly just call Khan OP?

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Draigo, Mephy, Sanguinor, Eldrad, The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

Sergeant Bastonne.
It's very hard with a Dark Angels list and also a Guard list (from experience) armies to not include a IC and get smashed (Not WAAC but let's face it; everyone hates having their army in tatters in the first turn ). I roll Belial and Straken with my forces and sometimes even Chenkov because Belial can milk the best out of the DA's and so does Straken (I'm not the biggest fan of Cadia). I'm serious, I've never seen a list of either who haven't included an IC.
I also don't see why some people hate all IC's and don't like playing them. I just take it like a man. It's a matter of choice for both you and them to maje your army (like you could get a CCS w/Creed, Kell for 225 points or 40 Infantry Platoon with enough points to spend special weapons on them). But if they spend that much on that they miss out on that choice that could be vital for the game.
All fair in the grim universe of Warhammer 40,000

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

doc1234 wrote:

-Loki- wrote:People need to look beyond the stats sometimes.

At what the special rules? Oh wait same problem.

...did you honestly just call Khan OP?

No, khanes a pretty good guy point was it isnt just stats that make SCs OP. some of these rules are slowed as the fluff

Matt.Kingsley wrote:The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

My problem with special characters actually is the count-as rule. Special characters are meant to be SPECIAL, there is only one tactical genius that is Creed, and only one Eldar of massive dick-age that is Eldrad. To use characters like those and proclaim they are something else is an awfully big statement in my books (so your saying your character is just as good as Vulkan in every possible way, so much that it extends to your entire chapter!!!). If you actually play Blood Angels, then go ahead a use Mephiston, just don't tell me it's not Mephiston because there is only one character anything like him and that's Mephiston.

I remember someone saying something about an individual game taking part in a larger battle. While that's one thought, I would more accurately describe a game as taking place in a campaign. Sure you could come up with the back story behind it all and hell if before you played a pick up game, you and your opponent sat down and discussed some kind of backstory, I'm quite certain you wouldn't feel half as annoyed that they were using a special character.

However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

(Happy 100th post to me )

hotsauceman1 wrote:Lysander, damn i hate him, the str 10 hammer, the enternal warrior, Bolter drills and even worse is that damn sheild.
He should be nerfed.

You would hate my army. Nothing like Lysander and a Librarian leading 19 Death Company.

jadebullet wrote:

hotsauceman1 wrote:Lysander, damn i hate him, the str 10 hammer, the enternal warrior, Bolter drills and even worse is that damn sheild.
He should be nerfed.

You would hate my army. Nothing like Lysander and a Librarian leading 19 Paladins.

Fixed it for you.
I'll add the Swarmlord to my list, for the same reason as every Necron SC in the 5th Ed book. Personality? No, no, NO!

baxter123 wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Draigo, Mephy, Sanguinor, Eldrad, The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

(Not WAAC but let's face it; everyone hates having their army in tatters in the first turn ).

thank you, IG especially suffer from this, hell i lost my 2 valkyries and a leman russ executioner on the first turn, , so in any case like this people are going to want to win at least one match so they end up getting baddass IC sooner or later

At my Club, We take friendly jabs on which unit will die first. ITs always the land raiders or vindicators.

The_Solitaire wrote:
However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

Why does playing your book the way it's written make someone come off as a douche?

Fafnir wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:
However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

Why does playing your book the way it's written make someone come off as a douche?

Because he feels you shouldn't play it that way.

The only issue I have is the same as others have already mentioned. Some SCs are essentially "must take" either to unlock troops options (Coteaz/Crowe/Draigo) or because they are just far too good (for the points) to leave at home compared to generic HQs.

The fluff doesn't really bother me, some of it is pretty funny actually.

Maybe I just don't take 40k seriously enough.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:The only issue I have is the same as others have already mentioned. Some SCs are essentially "must take" either to unlock troops options (Coteaz/Crowe/Draigo) or because they are just far too good (for the points) to leave at home compared to generic HQs.

The fluff doesn't really bother me, some of it is pretty funny actually.

Maybe I just don't take 40k seriously enough.

DoW

TBH Crowe and Draigo are the two cases I don't mind being forced to take an SC to access troops. Crowe is head of his order, no one else really has the authority to call so many up, and the same with Draigo and Paladins. But yeah, Coteaz pisses me off so much. I swear if I could take henchmen as troops I would probably run a mixed Guard Army by using Grey Knights and Guard Allies (infantry platoons and tanks).

Buttons wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

More of a grudge than anything against Bastonne, because a frind of mine always uses him, and he SOMEHOW manages to screw me
That's what extra orders and regrouping can do if done right

Your friend is the first who I hear about using Bastonne.

I have to say, Eldrad is just one annoying jerk. one guy at my local GW takes him and a farseer council, and so far I wasn't able to even touch him.

I have a slight disliking of Vulkan. mainly its the model, but also because TFG at my GW always complains about it. every time I talk about useing a diffrent model or counting it as my own special home made character, he always yells "buy the F***ing model! you cant use vulkan in your Iron knights chapter! he is only for salamanders!" It's really getting annoying.

Tiger9gamer wrote:I have to say, Eldrad is just one annoying jerk. one guy at my local GW takes him and a farseer council, and so far I wasn't able to even touch him.

I have a slight disliking of Vulkan. mainly its the model, but also because TFG at my GW always complains about it. every time I talk about useing a diffrent model or counting it as my own special home made character, he always yells "buy the F***ing model! you cant use vulkan in your Iron knights chapter! he is only for salamanders!" It's really getting annoying.

Correct me if im wrong, but im fairly certain either the rule book, or maybe the codexs, encourage using the characters as you own thing? so to speak? try and find the reference and rub it in his face lol

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Buttons wrote:

Matt.Kingsley wrote:The IG Veteran Sergeant that isn't Harker.

What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

More of a grudge than anything against Bastonne, because a frind of mine always uses him, and he SOMEHOW manages to screw me
That's what extra orders and regrouping can do if done right

It's a T3 W1 model in a squad of T3 W1 models with at best a 4+ armor save, that nearly doubles the base cost of the unit, he costs more than a Company Command squad with 5 dudes and 7 wounds that's able to issue to full set of orders twice to different units.

I don't mean to offend, but it's hard to see where a single Über expensive vet squad is going to swing games that much

you'd be suprised

Draigo and Dante and grimnar, freakin op cheese

Buttons wrote:What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

I like this idea.

He's really not that bad, just not overly necessary. He makes a melta squad much more likely to take out that pesky Land Raider, can help a plasma squad not kill themselves (provided they're shooting at something big), and it's always nice to have a power sword knocking around, even if it's only WS4 S3.

The problem is, anything he provides can be provided just as well (if not better) by having another vet squad. Since they're cheap and plentiful anyway, it makes him very 'meh'. If he could give a boost to Stormtroopers, as Buttons mentioned, that could potentially be somewhat more of a niche he could fill.

But now we're getting into proposed rules and I don't want to derail the thread too much.

DoW

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Fafnir wrote:

The_Solitaire wrote:
However if you choose to neglect this idea and just want to use a special character for the reason of "because I can, and you can't say s**t about it" then yeah you are going to come across as a some kind of douchey WAAC player (not that all WAAC players are douchey)

Why does playing your book the way it's written make someone come off as a douche?

Because he feels you shouldn't play it that way.

Exactly.
@Fafnir Are you saying that you wouldn't take a couple minutes before the game to discuss some possible background to make both yours and your opponents game more enjoyable?

Gorfang EadSplitta wrote:Draigo and Dante and grimnar, freakin op cheese

......

oh......oh my......



someone really did just call dante cheese.....oh my god this has made my day XD I can not think of a more useless SC in the blood angel codex, hell even seth is more usefull

Von Chogg wrote:To all the Eldrad haters, Eldar kinda need him to function competitively, or run 2 seers. Don't get me wrong, I went to a tourney with only a farseer, but that's coz everything else is so damn expensive.

Our farseers are over costed, like everything else, so Eldrad is one of the few choices for HQ that's a good price.

Also, ANY farseer can take the runes of warding to mess with other psykers, so don't hate eldrad for that

Eldrad is so good. Now that he can be taken by allies, watch the abuse. I agree farseers are overcosted, but that doesnt stop Eldrad from being OP.

Does Dante even have EW? IIRC he doesn't.

liquidjoshi wrote:Does Dante even have EW? IIRC he doesn't.

no, I dont think he does XD all he can do is not scatter, nerf a HQ a little and look good while doing it :3

oh and he unlocks sang guard.....but no one cares about them

DPBellathrom wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Does Dante even have EW? IIRC he doesn't.

no, I dont think he does XD all he can do is not scatter, nerf a HQ a little and look good while doing it :3

oh and he unlocks sang guard.....but no one cares about them

So, you don't understand how to play him properly and therefore he's useless?

You also still have the option of declining to play against SCs, the entire game is opponent's conscent after all

Trench Raider wrote:Yes, you always have the "I'll take my toys and go home" choice. But that is what you call a "false choice" or "false delima" in that you offer an option, but it's an unacceptable option and thus not a true choice......It's kind of like when your wife tells you "You don't have to go to my friend's wedding if you won't want to", knowning full well that if you shouldd make that choice you will pay for it in the future.
What about in a competative play enviorment were making that choice would result in forfeiting the round?
It would be far better to return to "opponent consent only" and give players a real choice. As it is now, you pretty much have to deal with it or go home

So, you're saying people should be allowed to say, "I don't like your list because it has an SC, and since I refuse to not play you, you have to do an impromptu list revision"? The game is meant to be fun. If you can't have fun against your opponent's list, don't play him. If you can't do that, you're the one who's being WAAC.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:

liquidjoshi wrote:Does Dante even have EW? IIRC he doesn't.

no, I dont think he does XD all he can do is not scatter, nerf a HQ a little and look good while doing it :3

oh and he unlocks sang guard.....but no one cares about them

So, you don't understand how to play him properly and therefore he's useless?

I've been playing blood angels for 6 years.....I think I know how to run them -.-

dante's only use is to drop him down with some meltas and wreck a tank and, like I said, nerf an HQ. after that he can skip around attacking stuff while trying not to die though it's a pretty safe bet that every melta and AP2 gun will be pointing at him when he's done melting stuff. dont get me wrong, thats not bad....only his >200pts price tag is, and makes him quite the point sink for what he does (not to mention he needs a squad full of men to keep him safe). I'd much rather have a libby doing the same thing only better (ok, it's not pin point but D6 scatter is still fine for the job and he's better in CC)

as for nipple wing.....over costed and pointless when you look at the other troops you could be taking

DPBellathrom wrote:as for nipple wing.....over costed and pointless when you look at the other troops you could be taking

Let's just agree to disagree, because I've seen some pretty nasty things done by nipplewing in 6th.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:as for nipple wing.....over costed and pointless when you look at the other troops you could be taking

Let's just agree to disagree, because I've seen some pretty nasty things done by nipplewing in 6th.

Note to self: Do not fall for the temptation to create and convert a marine chapter named nipple marines.

gaovinni wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:as for nipple wing.....over costed and pointless when you look at the other troops you could be taking

Let's just agree to disagree, because I've seen some pretty nasty things done by nipplewing in 6th.

Note to self: Do not fall for the temptation to create and convert a marine chapter named nipple marines.

Imagine the laughs it'll generate. Everyone will love it. People will talk about the unbelievably funny Nipple Marines. You'll be a hero at your club/store. I know you want to

fishy bob wrote:

gaovinni wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

DPBellathrom wrote:as for nipple wing.....over costed and pointless when you look at the other troops you could be taking

Let's just agree to disagree, because I've seen some pretty nasty things done by nipplewing in 6th.

Note to self: Do not fall for the temptation to create and convert a marine chapter named nipple marines.

Imagine the laughs it'll generate. Everyone will love it. People will talk about the unbelievably funny Nipple Marines. You'll be a hero at your club/store. I know you want to

And highlight the most essential parts of them so that every single opponent would be highly disturbed? A splendid idea lad. Psychological warfare in it's extreme form. Would work well with the muffin marine chapter I came up with the other day. "Behold the muffinators!"

gaovinni wrote:Psychological warfare in it's extreme form.

I thought that was just Slaanesh armies?

liquidjoshi wrote:

gaovinni wrote:Psychological warfare in it's extreme form.

I thought that was just Slaanesh armies?

Only if you hire a pair of belly dancers to stand on either side of you as you play.

DPBellathrom wrote:
as for nipple wing.....over costed and pointless when you look at the other troops you could be taking

6th ed's nerf to power weapons has actually gone a long way in making Sanguinary Guard much more viable than they used to be. They're obviously not going to be the top of the metagame, but nipplewing is certainly viable now.

Trench-Raider wrote:All of them.
I've always disliked special characters and the way that GW has mainstreamed their use in 40k. Back when the use of a special character required one's opponent's permision to field them I routinely declined to give said permission. I was certainly not alone. Back in the 2nd edition days, my local gaming group was pretty much unanimous in their condemnation of the use of special characters and would give those who wanted to use them grief. I still laugh at the time I heard someone saying "oh look, it's THE Marnious Calgar!!", acompanied by much eye rolling.

I recall when the very first 40k special characters (Yarrick and Gazgull) apeared in White Dwarf and thinking to myself "Why would anyone use these? Do they not have the creativty to thinkup a back story for their own character models?" You can imagine my distaste when a coupl of months later the very first Space Wolf army list apeared in yet another WD issue with most of the named characters that are still there today. My worst fears got confirmed just a few months later when I played my first game against someone with a brand new Space Wolves army and found that he had included all of them. Every. Single. One. That pretty much confirmed in my mind that these new named character models were a bad thing.

Like so many other questionable decisions that GW has made over the years, the lifting of restrictions on the use of special characters and newer codexes tying army build changing universal rules o their use is motivated by finanatial motivation: encouraging folks to buy horribly over-priced single models.

TR

But back in 2nd ed days SC;s werent anything special really, the mighty heros and Avatar and greater demons were beast back then so yes back then having SC's wasnt so much of a boost over mighty hero's so i cant see why you would have viewed people using them as a issue back in 2nd I know I never, as you should well know the stats changed massively into 3rd ed and thats when SC's were special.

Saint Celestine and Thawn. I hate characters that cannot be killed.

Necrosis wrote:Saint Celestine and Thawn. I hate characters that cannot be killed.

You forgot Yarrick.

TechMarine1 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Saint Celestine and Thawn. I hate characters that cannot be killed.

You forgot Yarrick.

Yarrick can be killed. Once he fails his 3+, he is gone. Celestine and Thawn just keep on rolling till they get back up.

Necrosis wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:

Necrosis wrote:Saint Celestine and Thawn. I hate characters that cannot be killed.

You forgot Yarrick.

Yarrick can be killed. Once he fails his 3+, he is gone. Celestine and Thawn just keep on rolling till they get back up.

If he was unkillable...hot damn would he find a place in my army. Probably a bit different model, but still.

Edited by Manchu.

The only two that really make me rage are Fateweaver (mainly because he makes a particular daemon army at my FLGS nigh-unkillable, especially in 6e) and Eldrad. Eldrad really only makes me sad because of the way Weirdboys work, since they have to roll a psychic test at the start of the shooting phase. Played a game against Eldrad recently, and my Weirdboy managed to get one power off on turn 1 before he nuked his brains out turns 2 and 3.

Locclo wrote:The only two that really make me rage are Fateweaver (mainly because he makes a particular daemon army at my FLGS nigh-unkillable, especially in 6e) and Eldrad. Eldrad really only makes me sad because of the way Weirdboys work, since they have to roll a psychic test at the start of the shooting phase. Played a game against Eldrad recently, and my Weirdboy managed to get one power off on turn 1 before he nuked his brains out turns 2 and 3.

Really, I think that Weirdboyz should be a little more fun when they perils. Now, I'm not saying there needs to be explosions, but I wouldn't be entirely opposed to a Weirdboy popping off the heads of a bunch of other psykers along with his own.

I disliked Trazyn so much that I came to love him.

Bjorn ..... That Space Wolf son of a Bitch is somehow immune to plasma shots .....i threw 90 dice at him......he saved ALL OF THEM

Kasrkin229 wrote:Bjorn ..... That Space Wolf son of a Bitch is somehow immune to plasma shots .....i threw 90 dice at him......he saved ALL OF THEM

For some reason I just imagine you getting frustrated and then physically throwing 90 dice at the Bjorn model.

In my local store everyone is encouraged to use special characters as a counts as generic captain/librarian/warboss etc...

So, you're saying people should be allowed to say, "I don't like your list because it has an SC, and since I refuse to not play you, you have to do an impromptu list revision"?

I see from your profile, you are new to gaming (2011) and I thus suspect are very young. So you may not know this, but "opponent consent" was the rule for most of four editions of the game. The "free for all" enviorment as to their use is a fairly recent development and tying army changing universal rules to their use is even more recent. When the rule was in place, people did exactly that on a regular basis. Also go back and actually read what I posted above. When "opponent consent" was the rule, most people who used special characters had the sense to bring along a second list in case they were not able to use their primary list.

I'm not saying that special characters should be removed from the game. Far from it. Some people like that sort of thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. But on the other hand there are those who see them as harmful to the game. Reverting to "ooponent consent only" is the way to go. It's a common sense solution that is the best of both worlds. They are still there for those who like that sort of play, but there is a legitmate mechanism to "opt out" for those who don't. It also levels the playing field a bit in the tournement enviorment as there is no way to include "opponent consent" in competative play, so they would (and were) banned in tournements. Clearly GW themselves agreed with that aproach at one point as the rule existed for over ten years.

and finally...

In my local store everyone is encouraged to use special characters as a counts as generic captain/librarian/warboss etc...

That's the way I use them. I actually like a few of the older special character models and use them as non-named characters. For example one of my Wolf Lords is a Calgar miniature that has had a bit of dremel work to remove the Ultramarine insignia and had his head replaced with a helmeted head.

TR

Trench-Raider wrote:

So, you're saying people should be allowed to say, "I don't like your list because it has an SC, and since I refuse to not play you, you have to do an impromptu list revision"?

I see from your profile, you are new to gaming (2011) and I thus suspect are very young. So you may not know this, but "opponent consent" was the rule for most of four editions of the game. The "free for all" enviorment as to their use is a fairly recent development and tying army changing universal rules to their use is even more recent. When the rule was in place, people did exactly that on a regular basis. Also go back and actually read what I posted above. When "opponent consent" was the rule, most people who used special characters had the sense to bring along a second list in case they were not able to use their primary list.

I'm not saying that special characters should be removed from the game. Far from it. Some people like that sort of thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. But on the other hand there are those who see them as harmful to the game. Reverting to "ooponent consent only" is the way to go. It's a common sense solution that is the best of both worlds. They are still there for those who like that sort of play, but there is a legitmate mechanism to "opt out" for those who don't. It also levels the playing field a bit in the tournement enviorment as there is no way to include "opponent consent" in competative play, so they would (and were) banned in tournements. Clearly GW themselves agreed with that aproach at one point as the rule existed for over ten years.

Well, now that opponent consent is no longer the rule, you can't expect people to bring a second list when they're using an SC, and, as I said, demanding an impromptu list revision isn't reasonable.

DOOMBREAD wrote:

Trench-Raider wrote:

So, you're saying people should be allowed to say, "I don't like your list because it has an SC, and since I refuse to not play you, you have to do an impromptu list revision"?

I see from your profile, you are new to gaming (2011) and I thus suspect are very young. So you may not know this, but "opponent consent" was the rule for most of four editions of the game. The "free for all" enviorment as to their use is a fairly recent development and tying army changing universal rules to their use is even more recent. When the rule was in place, people did exactly that on a regular basis. Also go back and actually read what I posted above. When "opponent consent" was the rule, most people who used special characters had the sense to bring along a second list in case they were not able to use their primary list.

I'm not saying that special characters should be removed from the game. Far from it. Some people like that sort of thing, and there is nothing wrong with that. But on the other hand there are those who see them as harmful to the game. Reverting to "ooponent consent only" is the way to go. It's a common sense solution that is the best of both worlds. They are still there for those who like that sort of play, but there is a legitmate mechanism to "opt out" for those who don't. It also levels the playing field a bit in the tournement enviorment as there is no way to include "opponent consent" in competative play, so they would (and were) banned in tournements. Clearly GW themselves agreed with that aproach at one point as the rule existed for over ten years.

Well, now that opponent consent is no longer the rule, you can't expect people to bring a second list when they're using an SC, and, as I said, demanding an impromptu list revision isn't reasonable.

Agreed, for instance I run deathwing, and if you do not want to play against an SC than put simply you are not playing against me.

Reverting to "ooponent consent only" is the way to go. It's a common sense solution that is the best of both worlds.

Here's the kicker, you can agree not to play him without that rule in the book, you have your consent regardless whether the book tells you to or not. The same applies whether you feel you don't want to play gray knights, longfangs, psykers, deathwing, forgeworld, etc. Nobody is going to force you to the chair and force you to game against someone against your consent.

This just makes it so that it isn't mandatory. Just say, I don't want to play against an SC, and walk away.

I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

ere's the kicker, you can agree not to play him without that rule in the book, you have your consent regardless whether the book tells you to or not. The same applies whether you feel you don't want to play gray knights, longfangs, psykers, deathwing, forgeworld, etc. Nobody is going to force you to the chair and force you to game against someone against your consent.

This just makes it so that it isn't mandatory. Just say, I don't want to play against an SC, and walk away.

See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

It's a moot point of course GW will not re-introduce "opponet consent" as it would cost them sales of over-priced character models. It's yet one more example of how the game has changed for the worse.

TR

See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

A sunken cost fallacy isn't exactly a decent method of debating this as a false choice. Yes you can indeed walk away if you see a SC, take the loss and move on.

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

It's an expression, "Hot Blonde I'll take two", generally it is used to denote something awesome.

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

One day, I will make an army of marbos, and it will be glorious. Everything will die, and it'll be the first game where an IG player not only tabled the opponent, but himself as well!

A glorious day indeed, sir!



DoW

MrMoustaffa wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

One day, I will make an army of marbos, and it will be glorious. Everything will die, and it'll be the first game where an IG player not only tabled the opponent, but himself as well!

Codex Marbo. Emperor's will be done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DogOfWar wrote:

Buttons wrote:What's so bad about Bastonne? I mean I can understand the rest of the list, but all Bastonne does is issue and order per turn to his squad and allow them to regroup. TBH he probably would be better as a storm trooper sergeant, simply because the orders would help a fairly weak unit by IG standards.

I like this idea.

He's really not that bad, just not overly necessary. He makes a melta squad much more likely to take out that pesky Land Raider, can help a plasma squad not kill themselves (provided they're shooting at something big), and it's always nice to have a power sword knocking around, even if it's only WS4 S3.

The problem is, anything he provides can be provided just as well (if not better) by having another vet squad. Since they're cheap and plentiful anyway, it makes him very 'meh'. If he could give a boost to Stormtroopers, as Buttons mentioned, that could potentially be somewhat more of a niche he could fill.

But now we're getting into proposed rules and I don't want to derail the thread too much.

DoW

Not trying to derail the thread, but I get the vibe that he was originally meant to be a storm trooper special character, I mean he has carapace armour, a hot-shot laspistol (the only other guy who carries them is Creed (who I think always had them) and Storm Trooper Sergeants) and the whole fluff behind him sounds much more like a Kasrkin sergeant than just a regular veteran (beyond his missions sounding more like spec ops than conventional guardsmen, the fluff behind the way the population views him (His voice is broadcast through officer training schools in Cadia and he is a worldwide heroe) sounds like that of someone already held in high esteem, and really everyone in Cadia loves the Kasrkin).

Trench-Raider wrote:

ere's the kicker, you can agree not to play him without that rule in the book, you have your consent regardless whether the book tells you to or not. The same applies whether you feel you don't want to play gray knights, longfangs, psykers, deathwing, forgeworld, etc. Nobody is going to force you to the chair and force you to game against someone against your consent.

This just makes it so that it isn't mandatory. Just say, I don't want to play against an SC, and walk away.

See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

Choose not to play at that tournament. There's nothing stopping a TO from banning SCs from tournaments, so the only conceivable reason to move back to them being banned by default is that you don't like them.

On the tabletop? Probably my most hated would be Lukas the Trickster, if only because his player outmaneuvered me, and ended up taking out a Chaos Terminator champion deathstar with my chaos lord thanks to that stasis bomb.

Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

Haters gonna' hate... I love Draigo because I'm a troll and when someone gets all poopy pants about it I can't help but laugh at them. But on topic I just hate overcosted SC's, Arjac and basically any other SC that GW stole abilites from other universes to create.

So, all of them then

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

The two things that make him stand out.

Heavy flamer (lol), and Hamadrayla, which lets a Chaos Lord have warptime (I came from before 4th, when Lords could actually take sorcery powers, I swear this is just an insult to that removal)

Kharne
Abbadon

I know one of my regular opponents hates Imotekh because he gets hit by so many lightning bolts that it's not even funny(well for him at least).

Well to answer the OP:

I don't like all the special characters. I hate seeing them on the tabletop every battle. Special should be special not commonplace.

In defence of some individual special characters:

Draigo... Only the fluff and a allowing paladins to become troops. Otherwise I think his rules are fine (as far as 40k these days) and his model is awesome.

Kharn... His model needs a revamp. Actually I think FW should make a run at all the special characters... Like an "Epic" from Warmahoardes.

Calgar... Sweet model... And I'm an Ultramarine fanboy.

Ghaz... I love Orks. Themodel is great but is basically any Boss in Mega-Armour. They should really just make him huge... like flyer base huge.

Trench-Raider wrote:

ere's the kicker, you can agree not to play him without that rule in the book, you have your consent regardless whether the book tells you to or not. The same applies whether you feel you don't want to play gray knights, longfangs, psykers, deathwing, forgeworld, etc. Nobody is going to force you to the chair and force you to game against someone against your consent.

This just makes it so that it isn't mandatory. Just say, I don't want to play against an SC, and walk away.

See my point a few pages back about "false choices". What if I'm a tournament? Can I just walk away then and loose my entry fee?
A false choice is not a choice.

It's a moot point of course GW will not re-introduce "opponet consent" as it would cost them sales of over-priced character models. It's yet one more example of how the game has changed for the worse.

TR

Yah! Gw is evil! Trying to sell me EXPENSIVE special characters! I mean, for the price of Dragio, I could just get a Terminator Librarian. SO EXPENSIVE! Better get that Space Marine Commander box for 22.25 instead of that OVERPRICED Tycho for $20. Or maybe I should play space wolves, and Get Ragnar Blackmane for 19.25. Better get ready to empty the bank account for that Belial model, you know, the one that doesn't exist. Or, in case you don't play marines, I have to make the AGONIZING choice between a Lord of Change for 57.75 or Fate Weaver for... 57.75.

So, now that we have established that most characters are the same cost as their generic counterparts (Except for Draigo, but the brother captain model is OLD [ and 22.25] and Grandmasters don't have a model), would you please find me a list of all the overpowered special characters?

And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, and to cover which characters I hate: Imotek. Because the lightning wrecks my tanks like nothing else.

Happygrunt wrote:And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.

I don't know what to make of this.

But 2007? You missed out, man.

Once upon a time $100 could get you 2 10 man tac squads and the rhinos for them to ride in.

DeffDred wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.

I don't know what to make of this.

A couple pages back, Trench-Raider went to a guy's account to get information to tell him how unqualified he was to talk about special characters. I was just saving him the trouble. And I felt it closed my mini-rant nicely.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

DeffDred wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:And before you go looking through my account, yes, I started war gaming in 2007 (With Battle for Macragge) and am a 17 year old highschool student. Which, when talking about the current subject matter (the current edition of 40k and the effect special characters have on it) we are equally qualified.

I don't know what to make of this.

But 2007? You missed out, man.

Once upon a time $100 could get you 2 10 man tac squads and the rhinos for them to ride in.

It is a rough estimation. I stared at the end of 4th while I was in 7th grade. 2007 seemed like a good ball park guess.

@ Happygrunt

Thanks for the explanation. Saved me the trouble of reading all 7 pages of whining to find out what you meant .

I hate special characters with stupid rules like statis field, you can run in with the most powerful unit in the game and its gone in a turn.

But more specifically I hate:

Dragio
Lucas the trickster
The Swarm Lord
The Doom Of Malantia
Dante
Castellian Crowe
Stracken and all other 6th ed characters that Ignore All Armour Saves

As a blood angel player.

Mephiston... he was always a scary character, still it... but when I see him it just smells of cheese... though Divination or Biomancy Mephy can be very... very.... scary

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

The two things that make him stand out.

Heavy flamer (lol), and Hamadrayla, which lets a Chaos Lord have warptime (I came from before 4th, when Lords could actually take sorcery powers, I swear this is just an insult to that removal)

Yeah, having played 3rd almost exclusively, when I saw Huron, I was like, "wait, what's special about a chaos sorc. lord w/ a heavy flamer?"

He gets a secondary slap to the face in 6th, though, as now his melee "options" are a S8/AP2/slow weapon, or a S5/AP2/slow weapon

spiralingcadaver wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Otherwise, I hate Huron Blackheart, cool fluff, interesting stuff..Most Worthless Beatstick with no purpose!

Hello, I cost more than a guy with the same wargear. No, I have no special rules. Yes, I suck completely.

The two things that make him stand out.

Heavy flamer (lol), and Hamadrayla, which lets a Chaos Lord have warptime (I came from before 4th, when Lords could actually take sorcery powers, I swear this is just an insult to that removal)

Yeah, having played 3rd almost exclusively, when I saw Huron, I was like, "wait, what's special about a chaos sorc. lord w/ a heavy flamer?"

He gets a secondary slap to the face in 6th, though, as now his melee "options" are a S8/AP2/slow weapon, or a S5/AP2/slow weapon

You could always just model him with a power sword though. Hopefully he gets something interesting in the chaos dex for 6th.

Abaddon. There's no rules for how much of a failure he is.

One I don't necessarily hate, but dislike Sicarius for being the only vanilla SM with rites of battle anymore (who else besides BT still has this, I'm curious). Of course, as a BT player, I'm spoiled for generic HQ and starved for SC, so I hope we get some with our next 'dex that way I hopefully can buy awesome new models. Might have said this earlier, but the reason I run my special characters is that I want to field that model that day (for example, my Grimaldus). For the cost of giving grimaldus his wargear, I think it's around 5 points more for the basic chaplain (and I would have to spend another 105 points to get a standard bearer who could equip the holy relic) so why the heck not get some special rules and use the model I like while helping my army.

BTNeophyte wrote:One I don't necessarily hate, but dislike Sicarius for being the only vanilla SM with rites of battle anymore (who else besides BT still has this, I'm curious).

Dark Angels.

I hate all IC's that are both 1) over-powered in a very simplistic or unjustifiable way (beast stats + cheap field cost together) and/or 2) easily exploitable because
of any variable, inherent stats.

There are some IC's that are utter deathstars; and I hate the people that use said IC's for that mere fact alone: because they are aware of it, they know
their IC is inexpensive and/or beastly and use it for no other reason but to buff their army beyond any moderate standards. The IC is annoying and the
WAAC TFG is even more annoying for being aware of it.

Other than that, the majority of IC's just seem completely unbalanced and annoying therein. Either their stats are too 'big' or their field-point
price is much too low for what they are. Everything would be fine if every single IC could be overhauled and rebalanced to make just a bit more sense.
That's all this is about: sensibility, because as it is, most of them don't seem sensibly balanced.


Otherwise..

(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━━━━━┻

Yarrick - Seriously I f*cking killed you and now you are suddenly getting up again the turn after I utterly destroyed you, sit down MF!

Doom of Malantai - Just because of his ability to raise his stats to ridiculous levels (yeah alright he's a bit soft, but seriously that STAT line).

Any Character in the Blood Angels, Grey Knights and Space Wolves codex...Yeah that just covers it.

Alot of people aren't thinking about the choices of Characters in a wider sense with regards to their special rules. Yes, some are close Combat Monsters, but others are annoying because they grant crazy army wide bonuses. Pedro Kantor's Scoring sternguard is a MF, as is Lysanders Bolter Drill (Seriously this guy doesn't even have a gun, ) Sicarious super tactical squads, fancy hiding a super-heavy? Hello CREED.

Abaddon, Mephiston and Draigo are all OP. I think we all agree on this.
On the OP factor I dislike them.
Disliking them, I don't run them.
That being said, run them if you want. I have yet to turn down any game based on the composition of the opponent's army list.
Why?
Because it's a game. SCs are a challenge. Challenge Accepted. If I knew I was going to win every fight before deployment this game would get old very quickly.
Alot of arguments about WAAC seem to stem mostly from the fact that people feel destined to lose. Just run better armies. I get it. Your army is fluffy. If that army lost as many battles in it's fluff as it does on the table they might decide to run a few more heavy weapons (or whatever). Sometimes it's not that your opponent is TFG of WAAC (good god, or both) but that your composition sucks.
If a player is WAAC, fine. You just have to toss out your preconceived notion of victory. If you want to beat a player like that just destroy their cheese unit(s) and they will fold. They always do. Removing the fun factor for a player like that can be a rewarding experience all it's own.

But that argument means, that 40k should lack diversity as all you need is one of 3 lists that are good, as the rest are pants. Ergo, why bother with them? This destroys the diversity of the game and essentially takes alot of the fun out of 40k (also known as META-list gaming) and you see it most often at tournaments. I prefer fluffy lists, rather than Competitive lists unfortunately their seems to be no appreciation of the casual/ fun gamer and OP characters just exacerbate the problem as the competivitive gamers jump on them and never leave home without them. It leaves you in the position that you have to take something to take on their OP character.

6th Ed Allies is already spawning F*cked up GK & BA lists in my local club, resulting in Razorback spamming assault squads with Baal Preds backed up with GK Paladins etc.

Abaddon, Mephiston and Draigo are all OP. I think we all agree on this.

I'm sorry but What? You're the first person I've ever seen call Abaddon OP, he's an overpriced Beatstick that costs far to much for what he is capable of

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Abaddon, Mephiston and Draigo are all OP. I think we all agree on this.

I'm sorry but What? You're the first person I've ever seen call Abaddon OP, he's an overpriced Beatstick that costs far to much for what he is capable of

He might be with the new rules but in 5th and still now against some armies would wreck anything and everything 9 times out of 10. Not to mention the fear your opponent got when you placed him on the table. Just put it like this, if you don't have a 2+ armour save or a decent invulnerable save you don't want run into him on the battlefield.

I have to say, as a Crowerifier and Deathwing player I rather hate my SCs. They do very little for me (Crowe, 'nuff said; Belial's only redemption is that he's cheap) other than let me take alternate lists.

Yes, some SCs are horribly OP. Some are ridiculously UP. Should you complain about it to your opponent? No, because we all have the same options at the end of the day. You can play the same army and list as anyone else. No one is granted special access to an army no one else has.

IXLoiero95XI wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Abaddon, Mephiston and Draigo are all OP. I think we all agree on this.

I'm sorry but What? You're the first person I've ever seen call Abaddon OP, he's an overpriced Beatstick that costs far to much for what he is capable of

He might be with the new rules but in 5th and still now against some armies would wreck anything and everything 9 times out of 10. Not to mention the fear your opponent got when you placed him on the table. Just put it like this, if you don't have a 2+ armour save or a decent invulnerable save you don't want run into him on the battlefield.

fear.......I have plasma guns for that

even in the last edition he would maul a unit then die. sure you can stick him in a LR with 4 other termies but thats even more pts down the drain

I will go another way with this... IC's that don't make sense and should be better.

1) Fabius Bile... he has the tools of an apothecary, he should have FnP and give it to his squad.
2)Cannoness... useless faith ability, for each HQ you should get an additional d for faith

I hate playing that necron dude that can bring himself back to life as another necron. i killed him like 4 times in one game!

I kill you!

I kill you til you're DEAD !!

Yeah, he and Cellestine are both annoying little bleepers..

Trazyn the infinite is the necron come back all the time guy.

My favorite is Nemesor Zahndrekh and Vanguard Obyron fluff wise. The little bit in the codex about "why they think painting themselves green and screaming like savages will change anything" is just hilarious.

I hate the BA winged SC

I can't stand skulltaker

Trygon! Oh wait no....

Carnifex! Oh.... Erm...

Wraithlord!.... God...damn....

He can make his points up just so damn easily.

And I can't stand eldrad. My friend keeps him in a seer council. With a 3++ rerollable , I can't get rid of him

I have a special hate for Draigo and Thawn. Can someone explain why Thawn magically comes back to life? Is he really a necron under that armour?

Would be hilarious if that was so

I think it's just Ward's 'you can't kill my SC, so there! ' attitude, though...

It wouldn't be quite so bad but the GK I play against took inquisitor karasomething, who can place his orbital strike EVERY TURN on top of a friendly unit (Thawn) and it won't scatter. So, suicide run Thawn into the middle of some people, call down an orbital exactly where he wants it and up pops Thawn again next turn no worse for wear from the giant lasers landing on his head >.>

TrickyTaquito wrote:It wouldn't be quite so bad but the GK I play against took inquisitor karasomething, who can place his orbital strike EVERY TURN on top of a friendly unit (Thawn) and it won't scatter. So, suicide run Thawn into the middle of some people, call down an orbital exactly where he wants it and up pops Thawn again next turn no worse for wear from the giant lasers landing on his head >.>

That is very much gimmick combination and pretty poor one at that:
1) Karamazov + Justicar Thawn costs 315 points (+ 160 points for the 4 other termies),
2) Thrawn must die once to enemy fire before you can use it, unless you want to sacriface the rest of the Termie squad.
3)I Shall Not Yield is only 4+ per turn, meaning it will take average 2 turns for Thrawn to come back.
4) Kamarazov cannot move and fire OSR.

This means, if Thrawn dies on turn 1 (best case scenario), you can on average use OSR on turns 3 and 5 effectively.
Add the fact that OSR is not barrage, meaning it requires LOS to use and it's easy to see that it's not actually that good combination. Especially when you considering that C:SM could have brought 3 Vindicators for just 345 points.

Oh I know it's normally easy to deal with but, as with everything, certain situations can happen involving revives every turn which I've never forgiven him for

Edit* What I'm saying is, math hammer is great and all but it doesn't always work out like it does on paper

2nd Edit* Also that I hold a grudge like my life depends on it, especially when it comes to

I know i stated earlier that Zahndrekh and Obyron were my favorite but i would like to clarify that I would very much preferred necrons to remain the soulless automatons bent on the eradication of all life including on the microscopic level. They could still have had SCs with this fluff. except instead of lords and overlords of ages past they could have been created to be extra stong even over a standard lord by the Ctan who were looking to make generals for their immortal armies. They do not have to have personalities to be a SC they just have to have special abilities...
thats my thoughts on necrons though, but i still love em

Also adding that i hate eldrad as well. and tau for being fisheads

Or they could have brought back the Outsider and the Void Dragon (maybe not Voidy, well, not yet...)

They are the SCs that I hate, for never being released

keltikhoa wrote:I know i stated earlier that Zahndrekh and Obyron were my favorite but i would like to clarify that I would very much preferred necrons to remain the soulless automatons bent on the eradication of all life including on the microscopic level. They could still have had SCs with this fluff. except instead of lords and overlords of ages past they could have been created to be extra stong even over a standard lord by the Ctan who were looking to make generals for their immortal armies. They do not have to have personalities to be a SC they just have to have special abilities...
thats my thoughts on necrons though, but i still love em

Also adding that i hate eldrad as well. and tau for being fisheads

The Crons are still soulless, they are just not as brain-dead as they were before

DogOfWar wrote:

Testify wrote:

DogOfWar wrote:

Cursed Dice wrote:I hate them all because I play IG. All of my characters suck or are way overcosted for what they do. Nork Deddog at 110 points. Really? WTF? Love his fluff but would never use him except in Apoc game with lots of points to burn. Yarrick, love him. Had fun with him the few times I used him but can't get past his cost for what he does. For the same points, my opponents IC's come with force shields giving 2++, Int10, etc, and bitch slap my entire army in assault.

65 points to put a demo charge anywhere on the board with BS5? Kill point or no, I'll take 2!

DoW

You can take two Marbos?

Funny you should mention that.

I always wanted to model a Marbo as the two guys from Army of Two, back to back, on a single base. Thought it would be pretty awesome but never came to fruition. Hmm, maybe I'll hunt down my putty-pushing knife and get to work!

But sadly Wardragoon is correct; no double-Marbo action for IG. Sad face.

DoW

Wanna know what we need? Codex: Marbo. Why just field one Marbo when you can field 17 Marbos, 34 at 2000 points.

I've never liked playing against Lysander. That man just eats bullets.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

keltikhoa wrote:I know i stated earlier that Zahndrekh and Obyron were my favorite but i would like to clarify that I would very much preferred necrons to remain the soulless automatons bent on the eradication of all life including on the microscopic level. They could still have had SCs with this fluff. except instead of lords and overlords of ages past they could have been created to be extra stong even over a standard lord by the Ctan who were looking to make generals for their immortal armies. They do not have to have personalities to be a SC they just have to have special abilities...
thats my thoughts on necrons though, but i still love em

Also adding that i hate eldrad as well. and tau for being fisheads

The Crons are still soulless, they are just not as brain-dead as they were before

True... what i meant was i preferred the necrons as the old view of them. a giant united wave of death sounds much cooler to me than random bickering dynasties.
DoWark Crusade, The crons in that are awesome and I stole my warcry from that game. " *robotic synthesized voice* Deaaaaaaaath Commmmes "

Kasrkin229 wrote:Bjorn ..... That Space Wolf son of a Bitch is somehow immune to plasma shots .....i threw 90 dice at him......he saved ALL OF THEM

Ha! Brilliant!

Haunter! wrote:I've never liked playing against Lysander. That man just eats bullets.

Not just bullets. Rockets and plasma shots too.

My personal hated ones:

1) Mephiston: Ridicoulous fluff and abolutely OTT stats... This guy simply doesn't make any sense, it looks like one of the many OTT self-made SC you could find in proposed rules

2) Kairos: Army-wide fortune? Lulwut? Absolutely OP (Zebio pointed out that a 6 bubble cannot be considered "army-wide... fair enough)

3) Straken: How in hell can a bionic arm/leg/whatever give you Uber-marines stats? Absolutely unnecessary and OTT (but not OP fortunately)

4) Cassius: T6???? Seriously? this guy is as resilient as a Tyranid MC? Well, not ridicoulous as Maphi but still OTT

5) Imotech: Horrible name, horrible fluff (So you are better of a BT High Marshal in CC but you cannot win a naval battle? Not bad for a tactician), horrible mini, horrible rules!

6) Ragnar Blackmane: The 40K incarnation of the word "useless"

7) Abaddon: U are supposed to be the main villain of the whole setting man... why o you suck so much? WHY??? (hopefully he will get some love in the new dex )

8) Crowe: Is there any reason for you not being an IC? No there isn't... the whole "cursed sword" thing is ridicoulous

Forge world Special edition!!!

9) Magister Sevrin Loth: 2+ invuln? oh yeah... but ... Why???? Your mini is awful btw

10) Bran Redmaw: You are the stupidest thing in the stupidest chapter of Space marines


The list incredibly lacks Draigo, since even if I agree about the absurd fluff, I think that at least he'a a characterful and well balanced character.

2) Kairos: Army-wide fortune? Lulwut? Absolutely OP

Not sure when 6" became army wide.

Yeah... missed to mention that my opponent made an "error" and told me its range was 12"... and so it was army-wide... still maybe it deserves a correction

punkow wrote:Yeah... missed to mention that my opponent made an "error" and told me its range was 12"... and so it was army-wide... still maybe it deserves a correction

It does.

Kairos is severely overrated, I apologise, but it seems a six inch fortune breaks the OP meter for almost everyone, when most daemons have a 5+ invun base and Kairos costs 333pts, and will run away if he fails a LD 9 test.

He really isn't OP.

blood reaper wrote:

punkow wrote:Yeah... missed to mention that my opponent made an "error" and told me its range was 12"... and so it was army-wide... still maybe it deserves a correction

It does.

Kairos is severely overrated, I apologise, but it seems a six inch fortune breaks the OP meter for almost everyone, when most daemons have a 5+ invun base and Kairos costs 333pts, and will run away if he fails a LD 9 test.

He really isn't OP.

For most things, he isn't. It's synergy with a couple of units (e.g. Bloodcrushers) and when included as an Ally that he becomes an issue

draigo.

Vaktathi wrote:

blood reaper wrote:

punkow wrote:Yeah... missed to mention that my opponent made an "error" and told me its range was 12"... and so it was army-wide... still maybe it deserves a correction

It does.

Kairos is severely overrated, I apologise, but it seems a six inch fortune breaks the OP meter for almost everyone, when most daemons have a 5+ invun base and Kairos costs 333pts, and will run away if he fails a LD 9 test.

He really isn't OP.

For most things, he isn't. It's synergy with a couple of units (e.g. Bloodcrushers) and when included as an Ally that he becomes an issue

With the reduction of the BC power weapons to AP3, and many ranged weapons able to ignore armour saves, I doubt Crushers will last long. Most units in the daemon army are incredibly fragile, and will be targeted quiet quickly by any smart player. Allies are probably the most over powered thing in the game, and when Kairos is used with allies, you have a point.

Except since the FAQ, IIRC, Kairos only effectsmodels from codex: Chaos Daemons

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Except since the FAQ, IIRC, Kairos only effectsmodels from codex: Chaos Daemons

Indeed.

Fuss making the mass fuss over Kairos really unneeded.

Matt.Kingsley wrote:Except since the FAQ, IIRC, Kairos only effectsmodels from codex: Chaos Daemons

Unsure where you've read this, I just read over the FAQ and nowhere does it say his "oracle of tzeentch" power only affects chaos daemons. Could have missed it though, what page is it on?

Hmm, it isn't in the FAQ, maybe I was thinking of another rule...