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Got the idea from the similar SC thread, but thought id post somewhere else so as to not derail it.

Every codex has one, that vanilla HQ that seems good but just really pales. For me is the GK grandmaster. Im paying what 175 points for a special rule, before equipment? Equipment which is identical to that of my basic rank and file, but randomly overcosted? (heres looking at you psycannon) Means they cant even be ran for fun and fluff, hes just going to look and be armed like just another soldier.

anyone else have a similar beef with their codex?

From the armies I play:

Imperial Guard: Lord Commissar. A very expensive, underpowered close combat HQ choice. I like the idea, but I've never seen one perform well.
Tau: Ethereal. Worse than useless. Makes half your army run away when he dies. And he will die, because any sensible player will be targeting him from the get-go.
Necrons: Destroyer Lord. OK in close combat, but a CCB Overlord is much much better.
Every Space Marine Codex: Captain/Chapter Master. Dull as dishwater compared to all the other options. I struggle to find something for him to do that something else can't do better for less.
Grey Knights: Everything that isn't an Inquisitor or Special Character. All far, far too expensive.
Daemons: Herald of Nurgle. Doesn't die, but can't kill anything. Huge let down compared to other heralds.
Dark Eldar: Succubus. Another over-expensive, underwhelming CC character that gets insta-gibbed by power mauls.

GCMandrake wrote:From the armies I play:

Imperial Guard: Lord Commissar. A very expensive, underpowered close combat HQ choice. I like the idea, but I've never seen one perform well.
Tau: Ethereal. Worse than useless. Makes half your army run away when he dies. And he will die, because any sensible player will be targeting him from the get-go.
Necrons: Destroyer Lord. OK in close combat, but a CCB Overlord is much much better.
Every Space Marine Codex: Captain/Chapter Master. Dull as dishwater compared to all the other options. I struggle to find something for him to do that something else can't do better for less.
Grey Knights: Everything that isn't an Inquisitor or Special Character. All far, far too expensive.
Daemons: Herald of Nurgle. Doesn't die, but can't kill anything. Huge let down compared to other heralds.
Dark Eldar: Succubus. Another over-expensive, underwhelming CC character that gets insta-gibbed by power mauls.

Tau etheral punting can be hilarious if you managed to not run if i remember correctly, not sure how it is with them now mind.

Problem with GK HQs all round. Our vanillas are too expensive, we use the SCs were suddenly "WAAC jerks", and what should have been 1 inquisitor entry got hamstringed into 3 and forced back into the codex like square pegs in round holes.

Grand Strategy is a very good ability and having access to Rad- and Psychotroke grenades isn't bad either. And psycannons aren't overcosted by a lot on GMs (see the other thread for more).

For me it's Blood Angels Captains. They don't even get the option of Artificier Armour.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Grand Strategy is a very good ability and having access to Rad- and Psychotroke grenades isn't bad either. And psycannons aren't overcosted by a lot on GMs (see the other thread for more).

For me it's Blood Angels Captains. They don't even get the option of Artificier Armour.

Lol yeah just spotted your post Think its just frstration at GMs generaly, dont get me wrong i love the idea of grand strategy, but paying that amount of points for 1 rule that has a random element to iit like that..

As for the psycannons, aye, assault 4 S7 rending is nice, even at only 24", just a bit jarring when you pay those points then realise unit X can get 2 for the same price. The grenades, again, can get on other cheaper HQs and units too. Psychotroke are funny though

Actually am i wrong in saying artificer armour seems to be dropping as an option in SM codexs? Could just be me but seems like im seeing it alot less

Blood Angels are the only loyalists without AA unless you count GK, who either start in it or in Terminator Armour anyway.

As for the Grand Master: you get Grand Strategy, the option for grenades and an additional Hammerhand on a guy who can actually fight himself in CC. Ordo Xenos Inquisitors aren't exactly durable. There are few non-SCs who will win one on one against a Grand Master.

Plus, Psychic Communion is pretty nifty.

Vanilla space marine captains, why are they the same cost as librarians and chaplains?

Dark Angels: Used to be librarians, now that they can take powers they're actually useful. This now goes to the Company Master, for same reasons as Vanilla Space marines. (That and Interrogator Chaplains are just so cool)

Chaplains, I love them, heck the one on my bike was my first HQ, but he just doesnt work that well outside of close combat, and asault squads arent very good, you cant take them in vet squads and the only good assault squads(Command squads) come with a Captain.

I disagree with Vanilla Marine Captains, as they have a couple of options that no other Marine HQ has. Namely - the rightly-feared Relic Blade/Storm Shield combo, an option for a non Terminator 2+ save, and the ability to unlock Bikes as Troops. Let's see your Chaplain do that.
Likewise with Grand Masters, while expensive, the ability to make extra units Troops is enormous - *IF* you build a list that needs it, for instance Paladins/Purifiers. It's rather moot if you have enough Troops units already.
GK Librarians are also extremely handy - perhaps a little overcosted considering how vulnerable they are, but their powers are deadly nonetheless.

I wholeheartedly agree with the Blood Angels Captain - there is literally nothing about the character to make me consider worth taking him over another HQ. Which is such a damn shame, because I really want to use the Captain model I do have more often. I get that I can give him a TH/SS, or perhaps double LC's, that I can't give my other HQs - but these are weapons I can already give to so many other units in the Codex. He's also missing the few things that make other Captains viable - the Relic Blade, the change in Troops options - but most galling - no Artificer Armour?! That's a glaring oversight.

I'm also not fond of the Wolf Guard Battle Leader. It just seems like a cheap option for an army that's supposed to be all about its glorious heroes. You've either tooled him up, in which case it's worth spending the extra for the Wolf Lord's statline, or you've gone for the absolute basics just to fill the HQ slot. And if you've done the latter with Space Wolves, in my opinion, you're doing it wrong.

Vanilla captains are amazing and points efficient. The option for a bike and what it does, or simply giving the guy artificer armor and a few other things makes him a force to be rekoned with.

Now ethereals... you'd be surprised how good they are. If you stopped spamming battlesuits, you'd see just how good attaching an ethereal with two shield drones to a team of 3 broadsides with drones, which makes them fearless and then allows everything in the tau army to re-roll any moral test, including successful ones.

And before someone says ethereals always die, they don't. It's user error that gets them killed. I have one that I've been using for over a year and he hasn't died once.

I don't have a problem with the vanilla marine captain. He has a better statline than the chaplain, librarian or master of the forge and is highly customizable. Chapter master on the other hand... 25 points more for having the orbital bombardment which is in my opinnion rather useless because it is a one shot weapon. Also the honor guard. I like the idea of it and running it for fun and fluff reasons can be cool but other than that... yeah not really worth it. The captain's command squad can be tailored to several roles.

The Chapter Master is fantastic if you're running a shooty list. In that case, you don't really need a choppy close-combat monster (except perhaps for counter-attacking) so that already narrows down other viable HQ options.

However, to make that 25 points worth it you do have to use it carefully. Namely - open up with it as soon as you can do so on a reasonably big concentration of foes, so that if it scatters it's still likely to hit *something*. I'd also suggest giving the Master a combi-weapon or storm bolter so that he's still useful at range - equipping him with close combat gear only would be counter-intuitive if you're actively planning to stand him still for a turn...

I've run Chapter Masters (Pedro Kantor really) and in my experience that orbital bombardment never hits a goddamn thing. The one time it did hit, it practically saved my entire advance as it wiped out a large Havoc squad. Every other time it scattered into nothingness.

I really do wish Chapter Masters had something besides the world's most expensive combi-weapon to set them apart, ruleswise. Honor Guard get really expensive, and while their 2+ save is way better now, TH/SS Terminators still do it better.

Grey Knight Grand Masters are kind of lackluster in comparison to most of the SCs, and the Librarian lost a lot of its value with 6th edition, but my vote has to go to the Brotherhood Champion.

The Brotherhood Champion has the statline and rules to make it a fun and effective Elite unit. Hell, he's even got a solid price-point... but he's in the heavily crowded GK HQ slot.

He's the kind of unit that I'd love to convert something special for, and looks like he'd be a lot of fun to play, but he just doesn't belong in any GK list of any kind, and only because of his terrible placement on the FoC. With some of the rules changes of 6th edition, he's really gained a lot more tools to help him truly shine, but that FoC placement still relegates him to uselessness.

The vanilla canoness. I really want to take a canoness and not saint Celestine. But even just trying to give a canoness the same gear with a power weapon rosary and the better save puts you at more points than Celestine and you don't get the jump pack or the revival or the heavy flamer or hit and run. Yeah Celestine is crazy under costed but come on. I do still want to try the dual plasma pistol set up. Put her in a guard squad with 3x plasma guns. That way with her preferred enemy I can reroll those gets hot dice. But even then 90 points minimum.

Chaos lords. I want to love mine honestly but he just pails to my sorcerer...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Chaos lords. I want to love mine honestly but he just pails to my sorcerer...

IcedAnimals wrote:The vanilla canoness. I really want to take a canoness and not saint Celestine. But even just trying to give a canoness the same gear with a power weapon rosary and the better save puts you at more points than Celestine and you don't get the jump pack or the revival or the heavy flamer or hit and run. Yeah Celestine is crazy under costed but come on. I do still want to try the dual plasma pistol set up. Put her in a guard squad with 3x plasma guns. That way with her preferred enemy I can reroll those gets hot dice. But even then 90 points minimum.

Ugh.

What makes it worse for me is that in anticipation to the release of the 5th edition WD dex, I had bought a second Canoness mini so I could have one with different wargear.

Now they both just sit in their case while my not-Celestine sees play in every game my Sisters partake in. And I really do want to take a Canoness, so I can use my custom fluff one, but then the moderate powergamer in me speaks up and remembers how more useful Celestine is, and points out that I like my Celestine model just as much as I do my Canoness.

Yeah I don't consider myself a power gamer at all. I field fluffy lists on a constant basis. And even I have a hard time justifying taking her over saint celestine. It's the same with Jacobus compared to a confessor. Jacobus is just SO much better than a confessor could ever hope to be.

I wish GW gave back the whole "create your own special character" kind of armory so that I could really have fun with it. Right now the only army I have that lets me play around with an armory is my black templars.

IcedAnimals wrote:Yeah I don't consider myself a power gamer at all. I field fluffy lists on a constant basis. And even I have a hard time justifying taking her over saint celestine. It's the same with Jacobus compared to a confessor. Jacobus is just SO much better than a confessor could ever hope to be.

I wish GW gave back the whole "create your own special character" kind of armory so that I could really have fun with it. Right now the only army I have that lets me play around with an armory is my black templars.

:: nods :: I have to try pretty hard to avoid falling prey to my inner power-gamer. And even then, I'm not immune to it.

I fielded a "Uriah-bomb" in my first game with the new dex. It slaughtered so damned much of my opponent's Space Marines, including a nice, juicy unit of Honor Guard plus a Chapter Master. But now, I feel bad about including it in my lists - plus the fluff justification I had to use for my custom Order was pretty terrible.

I do like the Death Cult Assassin models, though. Always wanted to use them under the Witch Hunters dex, but I didn't want to include any Inquisitors.

The Tyranid Prime.

The idea is solid. A cheaper generic HQ since Tyranids usually only had the super expensive Hive Tyrant, the very ungeneric Broodlord, and Warrior broods. A more powerful Warrior is a natrual expansion to the Tyranid HQ selections.

But it's such a huge wasted opportunity. Even with other codices having FoC allocations swapped around with HQ's, they took what could be the Tyranid FoC rearranger (by giving it options for Wings, Ravener body, psyker upgrades, etc) and simply ran with it being a stronger Warrior.

As it is, it should be a 'sergeant' upgrade for a Warrior brood, not a HQ choice. It simply doesn't do anything to earn its place there, and all it's used for is attaching to other units (since it's an IC) as a krak missile sponge.

There's huge potential, Cruddace just phoned it in, like the rest of the codex.

juraigamer wrote:Vanilla captains are amazing and points efficient. The option for a bike and what it does, or simply giving the guy artificer armor and a few other things makes him a force to be rekoned with.

Now ethereals... you'd be surprised how good they are. If you stopped spamming battlesuits, you'd see just how good attaching an ethereal with two shield drones to a team of 3 broadsides with drones, which makes them fearless and then allows everything in the tau army to re-roll any moral test, including successful ones.

And before someone says ethereals always die, they don't. It's user error that gets them killed. I have one that I've been using for over a year and he hasn't died once.

That was before precision shots/strikes and snipers that place wounds... he's more scared now than ever.

GCMandrake wrote:Necrons: Destroyer Lord. OK in close combat, but a CCB Overlord is much much better.

This is true, unless you're running a Wraithwing force. This is where I'd run a D-Lord over the normal Overlord.

Warpheads: Awesome model - zero way to make him unique. I still use one, but my other's generally snakehead or a SAG.

-Loki- wrote:The Tyranid Prime.

The idea is solid. A cheaper generic HQ since Tyranids usually only had the super expensive Hive Tyrant, the very ungeneric Broodlord, and Warrior broods. A more powerful Warrior is a natrual expansion to the Tyranid HQ selections.

But it's such a huge wasted opportunity. Even with other codices having FoC allocations swapped around with HQ's, they took what could be the Tyranid FoC rearranger (by giving it options for Wings, Ravener body, psyker upgrades, etc) and simply ran with it being a stronger Warrior.

As it is, it should be a 'sergeant' upgrade for a Warrior brood, not a HQ choice. It simply doesn't do anything to earn its place there, and all it's used for is attaching to other units (since it's an IC) as a krak missile sponge.

There's huge potential, Cruddace just phoned it in, like the rest of the codex.

+1

Blood Angel Captain, all the way. No access to some of the stuff you'd expect them to have, and nothing that really gives them any BA character.

CC Eldar Autarch. No matter how many points you invest in him he will still be mediocre at best.
"duelling with the leaders of enemy armies" my ass.
Well, I still take him sometimes but he must be used to pick on some weaklings and run from any real CC threat like a little girl.

We got fethed hard on Emperor's Champion. Mandatory HQ, yet doesnt count as a warlord, and with 6th edition is now a subpar challenger. So we are forced to pay for him, yet have to take another HQ for Warlord status.

Helbrecht. Stay on the flagship buddy.

Yarrick. Great model, and great ally fluff wise, but just sucky for leading squads that excel at shooting.

Chapter Master: Hooray for a 25pt Orbital bombardment that you will probably hit with about twice.
Chaplain: Now his Crozius Arcanum is AP4

d3m01iti0n wrote:We got fethed hard on Emperor's Champion. Mandatory HQ, yet doesnt count as a warlord, and with 6th edition is now a subpar challenger. So we are forced to pay for him, yet have to take another HQ for Warlord status.

Helbrecht. Stay on the flagship buddy.

Yarrick. Great model, and great ally fluff wise, but just sucky for leading squads that excel at shooting.

Two of those aren't vanilla HQs, but yes. Tycho gets to ignore all armour saves, but the Emperor's Champion, who's supposed to get the best gear and go out and kill people, is only AP3?


He's a stellar MEQ bully though, but that's not what he's SUPPOSED to do! Argh, the frustration!

Corsair prince. He's a shooting character with an extremely expensive retinue that's melee-oriented without any decent or exotic ranged weapons and only a token set of melee weapons.