I have been looking at the Hexrifle, and can some other people look at it and tell me how it works?

The language says that after a wound you take a toughness test, and if you fail you are removed from play with no saves of any kind allowed.

However, if you have already taken a unsaved wound, then you have already made your saves... so how can you get no saves of any kind?

Do you roll to wound, do you immediately roll the toughness test? If so, I guess you could do that, then get no saves.

Do you get FNP to it? Is FNP a save?

To any responders, please review the codex entry before responding from your "gut". I'm looking for a logical

I dont have the rule book but from the way you described it I think it works as such:

Roll to hit
Roll to wound
Make saves (armor, inv, cover, fnp, LOS)
If failed take a T test
If failed remove from play. Nothing can save you at this point!

Assuming you are shooting at a one model unit:

Roll to hit.
Roll to wound.
Save (if available)
You have now taken an unsaved wound.
Roll a toughness test.
If you fail, you are removed from play regardless of remaning wounds.

The saves bit is just to say you don't get a save against the additional effects.

The FNP goes off after you get the unsaved wound and if you pass it, the other effects don't occur.

Ok, that is what I thought. It's crap then.

Its a ranged version of a husk blade basicaly.

The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

Prodigalson wrote:
To any responders, please review the codex entry before responding from your "gut". I'm looking for a logical

And just to clarify, for an unsaved wound the model must take a characteristic test based on its wounds value, not toughness.

And since it's a sniper weapon, the target's toughness doesn't matter at all.

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

Really? FnP isn't a save, so, even if you pass FnP you still took an unsaved wound? Then, you still need to pass the toughness test?

jcress410 wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

Really? FnP isn't a save, so, even if you pass FnP you still took an unsaved wound? Then, you still need to pass the toughness test?

No, it's as has been detailed above.

The hexrifle is fired at you. (by you i mean your model)
You get hit.
You take a wound.
You attempt to save. If you make the save that's it.
If you fail, you have taken an unsaved wound.
If you have FNP you roll for it.
If you pass, there was no wound, it is discounted, like it never happened.
If you fail, you take the wound as normal, so you have an unsaved wound.
You must take a characteristic test against your wound profile.
If you pass, you just take the wound.
If you fail, you are removed from play. Period.

I thought the test was a Toughness test. I could be wrong though as I'm away from the books at the moment.

It is wounds. Page 61, C: DE.

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time. So in my turn I will make the hexrifles roll go before FnP, and in your turn you can make it go the other way, so it is less efficient if it hits during overwatch.

As detailed by others, you are completely wrong.

Actually he is right. Both effects trigger on the same unsaved wound, and there is no indication in the wording of fnp that it should resolve first.

While - as already clarified - the hexrifle does allow the save, it is useful for another reason. It's not Instant Death - so it works even against Eternal Warrior. And as it's a sniper weapon, you can place those shots on a 6. So I wouldn't say they're rubbish, they just got better.

copper.talos wrote:Actually he is right. Both effects trigger on the same unsaved wound, and there is no indication in the wording of fnp that it should resolve first.

True, but there is a paradox in the FNP vs Hexrifle results. You have to resolve both and the active player determines order. However when you resolve FNP, it changes the unsaved wound into a saved wound. So now you have the Hexrifle resolving against a saved wound.

Fragile wrote:

copper.talos wrote:Actually he is right. Both effects trigger on the same unsaved wound, and there is no indication in the wording of fnp that it should resolve first.

True, but there is a paradox in the FNP vs Hexrifle results. You have to resolve both and the active player determines order. However when you resolve FNP, it changes the unsaved wound into a saved wound. So now you have the Hexrifle resolving against a saved wound.

Actually, either way works just fine. On an unsaved wound;

If the FNP roll is made first and passed, then no roll is made for the hexfire test because the successful FNP result means "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

If the hexfire test is made first, and failed, the FNP roll can still be made.

This is becausee the hexfire test says no saves of any kind can be made, but FNP says right in it's rule that "...(this is not a saving throw)...".

However, gamewise it makes more sense to take the FNP roll first, then if failed the models has suffered an unsaved wound and would have to take the characteristic test the hexrifle rule requires.

It's the least confusing way to implement both rules.

Prodigalson wrote:Ok, that is what I thought. It's crap then.

Hex Rifles are great, my list always has 2-3. (generally on 3 man wrack squads in venoms that sit on objectives / in cover)

It's a sniper weapon (which have gotten better), it hits on 4's (and allocates the wound on 6's), it wounds on 4's (and is AP2 on 6's).
Now while a lot of the time this is basically a 36" Range, Assault 1, Splinter Rifle with Rending, if the model / unit you're shooting consists of multiwound models it has a chance remove it from the game.

I've used my hex weapons to instakill Tomb Spyders, Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Grotesques, St Celestine, Grey Knight Termis, Obliterators, Dreadknights, Scarab Swarms, That GK Character that keeps getting back up, etc... a myriad of multiwound creatures.

The major benefit being, most people ignore the 3 man 1 shot squads in favour of the other threats my army brings to the table, so they're free to do as they please.

Ovion
Thats the perfect execution of them guns. Its right on. They are not garbage. Simply put they are sweet as hell.

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time..

Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Ovion wrote:

Prodigalson wrote:Ok, that is what I thought. It's crap then.

Hex Rifles are great, my list always has 2-3. (generally on 3 man wrack squads in venoms that sit on objectives / in cover)

It's a sniper weapon (which have gotten better), it hits on 4's (and allocates the wound on 6's), it wounds on 4's (and is AP2 on 6's).
Now while a lot of the time this is basically a 36" Range, Assault 1, Splinter Rifle with Rending, if the model / unit you're shooting consists of multiwound models it has a chance remove it from the game.

I've used my hex weapons to instakill Tomb Spyders, Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants, Grotesques, St Celestine, Grey Knight Termis, Obliterators, Dreadknights, Scarab Swarms, That GK Character that keeps getting back up, etc... a myriad of multiwound creatures.

The major benefit being, most people ignore the 3 man 1 shot squads in favour of the other threats my army brings to the table, so they're free to do as they please.

You sir are a scholar of pain indeed and I must now make some changes to my new experimental list.

I played my first game of 6th over 500pts yesterday, so could actually field my delightful rifles.
I can now attest to the effectiveness of Precision Shots as my 2 hex-wrack squads proceeded to single out and instakill a few ork characters and harming a mad dok (sadly no instakill there)

'course at that point due to ultimately bad luck and that it was a list I made in 5th, the hex-wracks were the only squishy target left and so got brutally murdered before I officially got steamrolled with only 2 venoms and my razorwing left alive.... but that's neither here no there - the Hex Wracks easily killed more than their points in enemy orks. xD

Sadly my Grotesques were no where near as durable as they used to be, so that was mildly dissapointing...
We'll try it again with a revised 6th ed list next week... with not taking Grotesques, maybe 3 Hex-Haems with the Hex-Wracks for 6 Hex Rifles?

Ovion wrote:I played my first game of 6th over 500pts yesterday, so could actually field my delightful rifles.
I can now attest to the effectiveness of Precision Shots as my 2 hex-wrack squads proceeded to single out and instakill a few ork characters and harming a mad dok (sadly no instakill there)

'course at that point due to ultimately bad luck and that it was a list I made in 5th, the hex-wracks were the only squishy target left and so got brutally murdered before I officially got steamrolled with only 2 venoms and my razorwing left alive.... but that's neither here no there - the Hex Wracks easily killed more than their points in enemy orks. xD

Sadly my Grotesques were no where near as durable as they used to be, so that was mildly dissapointing...
We'll try it again with a revised 6th ed list next week... with not taking Grotesques, maybe 3 Hex-Haems with the Hex-Wracks for 6 Hex Rifles?

The new list I am trying is so strange to me. It feels like I went from using my infantry to kill infantry and my vehicles to kill vehicles, to using my vehicles to kill infantry and my infantry to kill vehicles. It just feels weird.

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Would you care to support that claim with rules?

time wizard wrote:Actually, either way works just fine. On an unsaved wound;

If the FNP roll is made first and passed, then no roll is made for the hexfire test because the successful FNP result means "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved."

If the hexfire test is made first, and failed, the FNP roll can still be made.

This is becausee the hexfire test says no saves of any kind can be made, but FNP says right in it's rule that "...(this is not a saving throw)...".

However, gamewise it makes more sense to take the FNP roll first, then if failed the models has suffered an unsaved wound and would have to take the characteristic test the hexrifle rule requires.

It's the least confusing way to implement both rules.

Either way doesnt work though. If you do the Hexrifle first and failed you would remove the model. Then you have to do FNP. If you succeed, the wound is treated as saved. If the wound is treated as saved, then the Hexrifle failed because it requires an unsaved wound. So you can't test the Hexrifle until you know that the wound is unsaved. FNP "treat the wound as saved".

I suppose that would depend on how you treat "removed from play". Most people I have played treat it as a type of instant death. One that even bypasses Eternal Warrior. You can't take FnP against ID weapons.

As an odd addition to this, if FnP can't be used against weapons that cause ID, can it be used against weapons that cause ID on a characteristic test, or special roll of the dice? The weapon does cause ID just not all the time. My gut says no, but....

Drunkspleen wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Would you care to support that claim with rules?

I really wouldn't bother. This has been debated already, and apparently nothing can ever come before FNP ever no matter what, irrespective of what qualifiers the rule may contain, according to DR anyway.

For reference;
Same question wrt. Entropic Strike. Note that apparently having to do something "immediately" still comes after FNP...

Same question wrt. Tyranid Boneswords, which would deny FNP if they trigger.

Drunkspleen wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Would you care to support that claim with rules?

Re-read FNP P.35.

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"

A model can to avoid being wounded if they pass FNP. This also we are also told to "treat [the Unsaved wound] as having been saved"

so we do not know if we have an unsaved wound until FNP is rolled for and passed or failed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nohman wrote:I really wouldn't bother. This has been debated already, and apparently nothing can ever come before FNP ever no matter what, irrespective of what qualifiers the rule may contain, according to DR anyway.

For reference;
Same question wrt. Entropic Strike. Note that apparently having to do something "immediately" still comes after FNP...

Same question wrt. Tyranid Boneswords, which would deny FNP if they trigger.

That is because you do not know if you have an unsaved wound until FNP is resolved.

DeathReaper wrote:Re-read FNP P.35.

"when a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved'W'ound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded"

A model can to avoid being wounded if they pass FNP. This also we are also told to "treat [the Unsaved wound] as having been saved"

so we do not know if we have an unsaved wound until FNP is rolled for and passed or failed.

But we do know that an unsaved wound has been suffered UNTIL such a time that FNP triggers and reverses that, this has to be the case to trigger FNP in the first place.

It seems to me the rules do trigger at the same time, allowing the player whose turn it is to choose the order.

What is interesting in that conclusion is, if you insist FNP can override the already triggered rule by reversing the wound, can't the removal from play override the FNP (by virtue of the model not existing anymore) denying the model the ability to use it?

Or alternatively, if you get to roll your FNP despite already being removed from play because it had been triggered previously, then wouldn't the Hexrifle's wound test get to happen even if you roll your FNP because it had been triggered previously, despite the triggering condition no longer existing.

DeathReaper wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:The rules state that the active player decides which goes first when to rules are activated at the same time..

Actually FNP goes before any other things that say Unsaved wounds.

This is because you do not know if a wound has been saved until the outcome of the FNP Roll, because if you pass a FNP roll you treat the wound as saved.

Yeah, in your world maybe. Sadly there is a qualifier that says that you can take a FnP roll for an unsaved wound. So by your logic you can NEVER take a FnP roll, because you can't use FnP on a saved wound. What you are saying is it goes all the way back to the initial wound and removes it, thus not an unsaved wound, but you ignore all the stuff in the middle. How about a flow chart:

My turn:
Hit
Wound
fail save
Unsaved wound rolls:
Active player chooses order(as per pg9)
Hex Rifle
If Hex rifle succeeds remove from play, if not:
FnP
If succeeds no wound if not take a wound as normal


Your Turn my overwatch
Hit
Wound
Fail save
Unsaved wound rolls
Active player chooses order(as per pg9)
FnP
If successful wound is saved, if not:
Hex rifle
If succeeds remove from play if not take 1 wound.

Your way:
Hit
Wound
FnP
Fail save
FnP




The qualifier for an unsaved wound must be met first. Thus ANY unsaved wound qualifier is treated as "at the same time" and thus covered buy the Exceptional rule(pg9 bottom left hand side). Their is of course those that include "immediately" in it which buy definition would go earlier than those that do not include said word.

Drunkspleen wrote:But we do know that an unsaved wound has been suffered UNTIL such a time that FNP triggers and reverses that, this has to be the case to trigger FNP in the first place.

It seems to me the rules do trigger at the same time, allowing the player whose turn it is to choose the order.

Not at all.

FNP must be resolved first as you do not have an unsaved wound if you pass FNP which would make things like Hexrifles not able to be triggered.

The unsaved wound is not unsaved if the FNP roll is passed, so it would negate the Hexrifles condition.

If you roll the hexrifle first then FNP, you are not treating the wound as if it had been saved as the FNP rule tells us if you pass the FNP roll.

megatrons2nd wrote:Yeah, in your world maybe. Sadly there is a qualifier that says that you can take a FnP roll for an unsaved wound. So by your logic you can NEVER take a FnP roll, because you can't use FnP on a saved wound. What you are saying is it goes all the way back to the initial wound and removes it, thus not an unsaved wound, but you ignore all the stuff in the middle.

Their is of course those that include "immediately" in it which buy definition would go earlier than those that do not include said word.

Why would not never get a FNP roll?

Fail a save, Roll FNP to see if it is a saved or unsaved wound, continue with the game.

It is as simple as this FNP removes the unsaved wound and makes it a saved wound.

So nothing can trigger off the saved wound because it is not an unsaved wound.

DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all.

FNP must be resolved first as you do not have an unsaved wound if you pass FNP which would make things like Hexrifles not able to be triggered.

The unsaved wound is not unsaved if the FNP roll is passed, so it would negate the Hexrifles condition.

If you roll the hexrifle first then FNP, you are not treating the wound as if it had been saved as the FNP rule tells us if you pass the FNP roll.

You do realize that he logic you are using prevents you from using FnP in the first place, right? You know the "unsaved wound" part that lets you make the FnP roll, as well as the Hex Rifle, and about a half dozen other things. If it negates the Hex rifles condition it also negates FnP's condition.

megatrons2nd wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Not at all.

FNP must be resolved first as you do not have an unsaved wound if you pass FNP which would make things like Hexrifles not able to be triggered.

The unsaved wound is not unsaved if the FNP roll is passed, so it would negate the Hexrifles condition.

If you roll the hexrifle first then FNP, you are not treating the wound as if it had been saved as the FNP rule tells us if you pass the FNP roll.

You do realize that he logic you are using prevents you from using FnP in the first place, right?

FNP is a Paradox, yes the rule is written so that once you pass FNP you would not have been able to make a FNP roll at all since the wound is not saved.

(This is the Logic written in the rules, this is not my logic, but the logic of GW)

Except that GW put a rule in that covers the situation on pg9. There is no rule anywhere stating that FnP is exempt from this rule. It is specifically triggered on an unsaved wound. ALL unsaved wound triggered items will start at that time. The active player than is allowed to choose the order in which they are resolved. If you don't believe me, turn to page 9 in the BRB, on the bottom left hand side of the page. It is printed even before you get into the other rules.

If you can point me to a location in the rules that specify that FnP always goes first I will gladly concede. But since there is no such location, aside from in your head, I will continue playing the game the correct way.

Except that if the FNP roll is passed there is not actually an unsaved wound, as we are told to treat it as a saved wound. (This is GW's Logic).

So they are not actually at the same time, even though a superficial reading of the rules would make them seem like they are.

If you let Hexrifle go first, then you pass a FNP roll you have broken the rule about the Hexrifle triggering off of the saved wound, as a Hexrifle only triggers off of an Unsaved wound.

That is why FNP goes before everything else.

it is because we do not know if we actually have an unsaved wound until a FNP roll is made.

Play the game with whatever house rules you want, but do not call it the "correct way".

Logically that is the way to do it, but the paradox is that strict RAW, you can have a Hexrifle go before FNP, causing all this mess.

The trigger of both special rules is EXACTLY the same. So RAW they trigger at the exact same time.

There is absolutely no indication in FNP's wording that it should get priority over any rule. So you resolve this like any other situation when 2 rules happen at the same time.

I see where he is getting his oops in his logic. He is saying that the special rule should resolve because the end result of it is a saved wound. The problem is that the end result is the effect of the special rule, as is the Removed from play, and Instant death of the other rules. You do not resolve the effects of a special rule first, you check the START of the special rule, or the event that causes them. He is skipping over everything else, which is not what is meant. It is there in black and white when two rules are supposed to go at the same time the active player chooses the order. Simple. FnP resolves on an unsaved wound, as does the Hex Rifle, Bone Swords, and a couple more. FnP does not anywhere state that it is resolved BEFORE other rules that happen on the same event. The event is the catalyst for the rules, not the end of another special rule.

Except if you try and resolve Hexrifle first, then pass you FNP roll, you have broken the rules and used the Hexrifle's effect on a saved wound.

That is why FNP goes before other things that activate on an Unsaved wound.

In 5th, I disagreed with DeathReaper on this...

But, in 6th, I think he's right.

The key phrase for me is the whole "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved." That is new in 6th. How can you know if that wound is "saved"? Ergo, it needs to go first. Otherwise, you'd have a true paradox.

Right?

DeathReaper wrote:Except if you try and resolve Hexrifle first, then pass you FNP roll, you have broken the rules and used the Hexrifle's effect on a saved wound.

That is why FNP goes before other things that activate on an Unsaved wound.

Why do you get to make a FNP roll even after you have been removed from play?

Or alternatively

Why don't I get to use the Hexrifles special rule even after you have successfully used FNP?

You seem to have a double standard here in saying FNP can prevent the Hexrifle but not the other way around, so I'd like you to answer one of these 2 questions so I can understand where you are coming from.

Drunkspleen wrote:Why don't I get to use the Hexrifles special rule even after you have successfully used FNP?.

Because a successful FNP roll results in a wound we treat as a saved wound.

So if Hexrifle triggers off of a saved wound then you can use it, otherwise you can not use it.

Since the Hexrifle requires an Unsaved wound, and we have a saved wound after a successful FNP roll you can not use the Hexrifle's effect.

DeathReaper wrote:

Drunkspleen wrote:Why don't I get to use the Hexrifles special rule even after you have successfully used FNP?.

Because a successful FNP roll results in a wound we treat as a saved wound.

So if Hexrifle triggers off of a saved wound then you can use it, otherwise you can not use it.

Since the Hexrifle requires an Unsaved wound, and we have a saved wound after a successful FNP roll you can not use the Hexrifle's effect.

Right, and the same applies in reverse, if the model no longer exists he can't use his FNP special rule

So if the hexrifle triggers off an unsaved wound, you can't attempt to turn it into a saved one using FNP.

Drunkspleen wrote:So if the hexrifle triggers off an unsaved wound, you can't attempt to turn it into a saved one using FNP.

That requires you to go against what FNP states. we are not allowed to break the rules by taking the Hexrifle test first.

Because we know we get to use FNP against an Unsaved wound, so taking the Hexrifle test first breaks the FNP rule.

The reverse is not true, since after the successful FNP roll there is no Unsaved wound anymore.

There is an unsaved wound. You need it to make the FnP roll in the first place. This is the point you would make any roll for an ability that is triggered by an unsaved wound. FnP does not have a rule that allows it to beat every other special rule.

How do you get to use FnP?
Answer: When you suffer an unsaved wound.

When do you roll for force?
Answer: When you suffer an unsaved wound.

When do you test for the Hex Rifle?
Answer: When you suffer an unsaved wound.

The Exceptional rule makes the active player choose the order these resolve. If you are removed from play or the item becomes instant death, then it is over and FnP will not kick in, if not than you can than ignore the wound. On your turn you may make FnP go first, which can then make the other abilities not function. Read the Exceptional Rule very carefully. When 2 special rules tell you to do something at the same time.......

Not true, as you do not know if you actually have an unsaved wound until you resolve FNP.

To make anything go off before FNP will break the FNP rule, which we are not allowed to do without explicit permission.

Hexrifle has no such permission.

Taking the Hexrifle test first breaks the FNP rule because if you fail a Hexrifle roll you are removed and it does not specifically disallow a FNP roll, and if you were not allowed to take a FNP roll you are breaking the FNP rule.

To be able to take a FNP roll, you must first have a unsaved wound, Correct?

No unsaved wound, you have no permission to make a FNP roll.

Since FNP triggers at the same time as the others, even tho if it is successful the wound would go away, it still triggers off the same event. Since they trigger at the same time the active player gets to decide. There is no rule in FNP that says it gets to supersede the other rules, they all have the same trigger condition.

You keep stating the same thing, but the rules just dont back you up. Nothing ever tells you FNP gets to go first, so you MUST go by its trigger condition, even tho if it did go first it could cancel the other effects.

DarkOmen wrote:Nothing ever tells you FNP gets to go first, so you MUST go by its trigger condition, even tho if it did go first it could cancel the other effects.

But that is why it must go first, because if it does work it untriggers all the other effects;
and technically itself in something of a grandfather paradox
but at that stage we don't care since the wound has been saved and we can get on with the game.

Rules don't care what another rule will do later. The wording of both rules make them happen at the same time, , and BRB shows how to resolve such cases.

OK so lets see Bob the Painboy takes an unsaved wound from a hexrifle.

Scenario 1.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Rolls FNP.
3.Passes, YAY!!
4. WAAAAAGH!!!
or,
3. Fails, BOOOO!
4. Takes Wounds test.
5. Fails. removed from play.

Scenario 2.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Takes Wounds test.
3. Fails, Oh, wait he also gets FNP since the unsaved Wound does not inflict ID.
4. Passes
5. Now what? He has to be RFP because he failed the Toughness test which means the wound isn't treated as saved which it does because he passed FNP...

It doesn't matter what happens to the wound afterwards. All it matters is that the trigger conditions for the hexrifle are met.

copper.talos wrote:It doesn't matter what happens to the wound afterwards. All it matters is that the trigger conditions for the hexrifle are met.

And they are not met if you pass FNP.

The Unsaved wound may or may not be an unsaved wound pending the outcome of the FNP roll.

The condition that triggers the hexrifle is the exact same condition that triggers FNP. If one gets activated si does the other. BRB shows how to handle such cases.

Except if you activate the Hexrifle first, then pass your FNP save then you have broken the rules, as you activated the Hexrifle off of a saved wound.

Happyjew wrote:OK so lets see Bob the Painboy takes an unsaved wound from a hexrifle.

Scenario 1.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Rolls FNP.
3.Passes, YAY!!
4. WAAAAAGH!!!
or,
3. Fails, BOOOO!
4. Takes Wounds test.
5. Fails. removed from play.

Scenario 2.
1. Suffers unsaved Wound.
2. Takes Wounds test.
3. Fails, Oh, wait he also gets FNP since the unsaved Wound does not inflict ID.
4. Passes
5. Now what? He has to be RFP because he failed the Toughness test which means the wound isn't treated as saved which it does because he passed FNP...

What is with this idea that the model gets to make a Feel No Pain roll even after they have been removed from play, particularly highlighted by the ridiculous double standard of saying FNP can prevent other rules from triggering in the first place, if FNP can do it, so can a hexrifle.

Because the only thing that denies a model with FNP from using it is a wound that inflicts ID. Since the Hexrifle does not an ID wound (even on a failed characteristic test). the model still gets FNP.

Happyjew wrote:Because the only thing that denies a model with FNP from using it is a wound that inflicts ID. Since the Hexrifle does not an ID wound (even on a failed characteristic test). the model still gets FNP.

This.

And if the FNP is passed then the other rules are not triggered since the wound is now saved.

Think about Force. I do 6 wounds with a set of force weapons to your squad. You pass 2 FnP saves. With the Brotherhood of Psychers rule, all the force weapons are activated, now you broke the FnP rule of not being able to be used against weapons that cause instant death. They are all activated at the same time, thus the wounds you passed with the FnP at that Initiative should not have gotten a FnP roll.

Luckily Force has an "immediately" clause so would go before FnP even in your turn, buy the rule as written on page 9.

Force weapons (and boneswords/bonesabres) vs FNP is debatable. However, this thread is only dealing with FNP and Hexrifles.

FWIW I agree that FNP should come before everything else, and is how I would play it, but this has no bearing on my arguments for this thread.

megatrons2nd wrote:Think about Force. I do 6 wounds with a set of force weapons to your squad. You pass 2 FnP saves. With the Brotherhood of Psychers rule, all the force weapons are activated, now you broke the FnP rule of not being able to be used against weapons that cause instant death. They are all activated at the same time, thus the wounds you passed with the FnP at that Initiative should not have gotten a FnP roll.

Luckily Force has an "immediately" clause so would go before FnP even in your turn, buy the rule as written on page 9.

Again you do not know if you have a saved wound until you take your FNP saves, so there is no issue with NFW's since those wounds are treated as saved.

You treat the wounds as saved, so when you take FNP they do not cause ID. we treat them as saved and NFW's activate as normal.

No issues.

Actually Happy, its pretty much the same discussion. RAW, the controlling player determines the effect first, so the Hex could go first and remove the target. But that causes an issue that if the FNP (when it goes second) cancels the wound you have a paradox. The Hexrifle met all the conditions to trigger when it went off, but FNP retroactively reversed those conditions. So you could have a model removed by the Hexrifle from a Saved wound.

DeathReaper wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:Think about Force. I do 6 wounds with a set of force weapons to your squad. You pass 2 FnP saves. With the Brotherhood of Psychers rule, all the force weapons are activated, now you broke the FnP rule of not being able to be used against weapons that cause instant death. They are all activated at the same time, thus the wounds you passed with the FnP at that Initiative should not have gotten a FnP roll.

Luckily Force has an "immediately" clause so would go before FnP even in your turn, buy the rule as written on page 9.

Again you do not know if you have a saved wound until you take your FNP saves, so there is no issue with NFW's since those wounds are treated as saved.

You treat the wounds as saved, so when you take FNP they do not cause ID. we treat them as saved and NFW's activate as normal.

No issues.

But since they all wounded at the same time, they are activated at the same time, thus disallowing the use of FnP to make the save in the first place. You already suffered the unsaved wound and it is all the same initiative, and they all activate at that step, you could only save against them with FnP as they are power weapons(barring invuln/2+ saves) so you did break the rule buy using it to save those models.

The exceptional rule is weighted to what triggers the other rules, not the end effect of a special rule. You are breaking the Exceptional rule every time you roll for FnP and ignore any other rule that activates at that time. It specifically tells you that when two rules activate at the same time(when you take an unsaved wound) the active player chooses the order. It IS an unsaved wound, so the active player chooses the order resolved. Removed from play is another debate, though it does weigh in to this one.

I really hope they FAQ this soon, as this is tiring.

Stop Ignoring that FNP is needed to be rolled for before we see if you actually have an unsaved wound or we treat the wound as having been saved.

Until you roll for FNP the unsaved wounds might not all be unsaved wounds.

Logically you have to determine if FNP treats any of those as saved before any effects that trigger off of unsaved wounds.

Logically, when the rule states that 2 rules that tell you to do something at the same time would follow the Exceptional rule and have the order chosen by the active player. Stop putting the end effect of a special rule as the beginning of the rule. It is unsaved and both rules tell you to make a roll, thus as per the exceptional rule active player chooses. FnP does not exempt this rule.

You can only follow the rules of FNP if you either roll FNP first or discount the other roll entirely if you pass FNP

But you are breaking the exceptional rule when you make FnP first in the opposite players turn. FnP can not be used against weapons that cause instant death(Remove from play is another discussion) so you can't use FnP until you know if the weapon causes instant death.

Removed from play sounds like the model is taken out of the game, so it would be like you never had it.

You break FNP's rule if you remove the model from the game before you roll for FNP, as you are told to roll for FNP each time you suffer an unsaved wound.

So either way, no matter what order, you get to roll for FNP, because FNP is allowed to be made off of an unsaved wound.

So even if you roll for the Hexrifle first you roll for FNP, and if passed the wound becomes saved and Hexrifle has no effect, since there is no unsaved wound.

And you test each time you suffer an unsaved wound and are removed from play(thus no FnP as your model is no longer a game piece) or suffers instant death so can't use FnP to begin with. You are putting the end of a rule before the trigger. The trigger is specifically when a model suffers an unsaved wound, on all instances being discussed. The results vary but they go at the same time. Thus you use the Exceptional rule. You do not place an end result before the starting trigger.


And with this I am done with the debate, as no matter what we will never agree. You are placing emphasis on an end, of 1 rule,rather than at the start. I am placing emphasis on the start, of at least 3 rules, were the rules tell me to do both things at the same time and thus following the Exceptional rule.

Removing the model before rolling for FNP breaks the FNP rules.

Even if you use the Exceptional rule you still get a FNP roll, and if passed the model is unharmed because the wound is treated as saved, so we no longer have an unsaved wound, and the model is not removed regardless of the Hexrifle test, as the wound is Saved and not unsaved.

No, FNP cannot cancel a previous roll. The result would be a saved wound and the model would be removed from play. Which is the paradox. Which is why its easier to resolve FNP first, but that is not RAW.

Fragile wrote:No, FNP cannot cancel a previous roll. The result would be a saved wound and the model would be removed from play. Which is the paradox. Which is why its easier to resolve FNP first, but that is not RAW.

Deathreaper is quoting the rules pretty closely. Successful FNP = 'treated as saved' , so RAW == no test if FnP is successful.

But that doesnt change the fact that the model has already been removed from the table by a Hexrifle Jcress. There is no RAW addressing FNP for alot of things.

to throw my $0.02 into this conversation, I am in the boat that regardless of if the hexrifle goes first or FNP goes first (active players choice), if the FNP is successful the hexrifle cannot remove the model from play as the wound was treated as being saved but in actuality is being discounted. I see this as all effects of that wound triggering is also discounted. If the hexrifle vs boneswords would be a different argument as boneswords activating would then stop FNP, but hexrifles doesn't atm with the model just being removed from play.

My opinion is, that logically, you take FnP first.

HOWEVER - this is a much contested issue, that regardless of what arguments either side makes, no one ever agrees and it goes round in circles.

Ultimately - the Hex Rifle is a decent Sniper Rifle, it's a 36" range, assault 1, sniper weapon with a special effect to remove multi-wound models from play.

My only problem is you can't comfortably take more of them.
An army of rending 36" range splinter rifles would be awesome.

You already suffered an "Unsaved Wound" how hard is that to understand?

That is the trigger condition for both Hexrifle and FNP. <- If you don't agree on this then there's no point discussion as what you are trying to represent is that FNP triggers always ahead of anything else.
So since both are triggered the turn's player gets to choose the order of these being resolved.
If the order chosen was:
1. FNP
2. Hexrifle
then if FNP passes the condition for Hexrifle would no longer be true.

If the order chosen was:
1. Hexrifle
2. FNP
then you would have to take a Characteristic test first, and on a fail you get removed.
You can still take a FNP but for a removed model if you like.
It doesn't matter if the FNP becomes saved you are already removed. A saved wound on a removed model.


On a side not, the fluff would make sense as well, how are you supposed to FNP if you are a crystal statue?

Makutsu, there within lies the problem. If you do FNP second, the wound counts as saved which means you did not need to take a wound test, which means you can't have failed the wound test and you have now just rolled dice for the hell of it. Pardon my bastardized English.

Yes a saved wound on a removed model like I stated.

A removed model can't be brought back just due to it getting wounds back.

Assume you failed Hexrifle's test.
The effect of Hexrifle takes place first(I assume you agree), hence you get removed.
FNP's effect can still be used on the removed model but even if you pass you would not be able to return the model to the board.

Does FNP say that a removed model can be brought back to the table?

It says it where it says that it treats the unsaved wound as having been saved.

The real question is why are you removing a model from a hexrifle test off of a wound that was saved?

It's saved after the effect got triggered.

The unsaved wound after the effect and the pass of FNP is saved, but the model is removed regardless.

Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Fail Test
3. Effect of Hexrifle
4. Removed from play
5. FNP test
6. Pass FNP test
7. Unsaved wound turns into Saved Wound

At the point where you are testing the Hexrifle, you would have an unsaved wound.
The wound is treated as saved but after the effect of Hexrifle takes place.
The model is removed because "at the time" of the Hexrifle's effect the model suffered an unsaved wound.


Fluff wise, if you get hit wounded by a Hexrifle you Crystallize how can Feel No Pain help you from being Crystallized? But that is fluff.

You have the order wrong.

The hexrifle special rule triggers on an unsaved wound.
FNP triggers on an unsaved wound.
FNP does not trigger on a model being removed, which is why it cannot be made against wounds that cause ID.
The Hexrifle rule does not cause ID, it removes the model if it fails a test that it takes from an unsaved wound.

If you took the hexrifle test first and failed it, the model is removed.
Since you cannot take a FNP test from being removed, you would not be able to roll for FNP.
This would break the FNP rule that allows you to take the test for an unsaved wound.

So on an unsaved wound, you would test for FNP.
If successful, the wound is ignored, it is treated as being saved.
If unsuccessful, the model takes the wound as normal.
If it is its last wound, it is removed.
If it is not removed due to wounds, it would have to test against the hexrifle's special rule.
If that test is failed, the model is then removed.

If you don't do it in this order, you are breaking the rules for removing casualties and for feel no pain.

No Time, the order is clearly laid out correctly. The issue is whether one effect can retroactively reverse the effect of another special ability.

Makutsu wrote:It's saved after the effect got triggered.

It does not matter as we are told to treat it as a saved wound.

If we are treating it as saved why are you removing the model from the game for an effect that only works on an unsaved wound.

Clearly the wound is not an unsaved wound, it is a saved wound.

Fragile wrote:No Time, the order is clearly laid out correctly. The issue is whether one effect can retroactively reverse the effect of another special ability.

No, the order is not correct.
There is no retroactive reversal of the effect of another special ability.

The hexrifle special rule does not say that it ignores or negates FNP, so the FNP roll must be allowed.

Both rules trigger on an unsaved wound.

As it stands, before a FAQ comes out, the only way to resolve it is to make both rolls simultaneously.

FNP is rolled by the defending player.
The hexrifle special rule is rolled by the attacking player.

So make both rolls at the same time. If the FNP roll is passed, the hexrifle roll is ignored.

They are not made at the same time as it is stated that if an event that happens at the same time the player of the turn decides its order.

I'll rewrite it so it is more clear on the order.
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP & Hexrifle
3. Player Decides FNP and Hexrifle Order
4. Player chooses Hexrifle first.
5. Do Characteristic test
6. Assume Failed Test
7. Model Removed from Play
8. Unsaved Wound still is in play <--------- IMPORTANT
9. Resolve FNP
10. Pass FNP
11. Unsaved wound turns into Saved Wound
12. Removed Model get an unsaved wound.

They DO NOT happen at the same time, this is the order that the stuff would happen.

The wound is saved, but AFTER the effect of Hexrifle taking place.

FNP is NOT negated, I have NEVER said that FNP is negated.

FNP happens AFTER Hexrifle's effect, and hence the unsaved wound is AFTER the Hexrifle's roll and DOES NOT affect Hexrifle's roll.

FNP still turns the unsaved wound into a saved wound but just after the Hexrifle's roll

Makutsu wrote: They are not made at the same time as it is stated that if an event that happens at the same time the player of the turn decides its order.

Actually, it says that sometimes "...both players will have to do something at the same time."

In the case of FNP and Hexrifle, look again at what each players actually does.

Attacker: Rolls to hit, if successful rolls to wound.
Defender: Rolls for a saving throw if possible, if successful wound is ignored, if the saving throw fails the model suffers an unsaved wound.

From this point on, the attacking player does nothing.

If the target model has 1 wound on it's profile, it is removed when the wound is unsaved. But if that model has FNP, it can roll to negate the wound.
If successful the wound is ignored, if the roll fails, the model suffers the unsaved wound as normal, and again, if the target model has 1 wound on it's profile, it is removed.

If the target model has more than 1 wound on it's profile, it takes a wound. Now if the unsaved wound was caused by a hexrifle (or another rule that refers to an unsaved wound) the defending player makes another roll, a characteristic test.
If that test is failed, the model is removed. If the test is passed, the model remains but has still taken a wound.

Both of these rolls have been make by the defending player. The attacking player has taken no action since the to hit and wound rolls.

Makutsu wrote:I'll rewrite it so it is more clear on the order.
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP/Hexrifle
3. Player Decides FNP and Hexrifle Order
4. Player chooses Hexrifle first.
5. Do Characteristic test
6. Assume Failed Test
7. Model Removed from Play
8. Unsaved Wound still is in play <--------- IMPORTANT
9. Resolve FNP
10. Pass FNP
11. Unsaved wound turns into Saved Wound
12. Removed Model get an unsaved wound.

That is all well and good, but it is only your opinion of the order of events.
Neither special rule, neither FNP nor the Hexrifle rule, specify any order of events.

Makutsu wrote:FNP happens AFTER Hexrifle's effect, and hence the unsaved wound is AFTER the Hexrifle's roll and DOES NOT affect Hexrifle's roll.

FNP still turns the unsaved wound into a saved wound but just after the Hexrifle's roll

And again, nothing in the rules supports this. On the contrary, the section of the rules you cite as determining order(page 8 - the turn - exceptions) goes on to say that sometimes the actions of one player will activate a special rule and that in thoses cases the special rule will contain all needed information to resolve it.

This is closer to what happens here. The action of the attacking player (causing a wound) activates the action of the defending player (making a saving throw if it has one). The result of that action may activate a special rule. In this case, 2 special rules. They both, both feel no pain and the hexrifle rule, trigger on an unsaved wound. But, not to beat a dead horse, nowehere does it say what the order of operation is.

They (the attacking and defending players) are not both doing something at the same time, there is a sequence of events that is taking place. Hit, wound, save, special rules. I merely suggested that the FNP and chatarteristic test could be rolled for at the same time, because they both trigger on an unsaved wound, and a successful FNP roll would negate the unsaved wound and therefore ignore the characteristic test the hexrifle's special rule calls for.

What you are suggesting is that FNP comes first in order for that to happen.

Because in order for Hexrifle's test to NOT be triggered there should be no unsaved wounds prior to it happening.

Since both are triggered the both test are going to be executed at the same time.

If both pass, it would lead to a Removed Model and a Saved Wound.

The Saved Wound happens after the trigger of the Hexrifle and hence does not matter.

Now the order for if they would happen at the same time would be like the following.

1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP & Hexrifle
3. Do Characteristic test & Resolve FNP
4. Assume Failed Characteristic Test & Pass FNP
5. Model Removed from Play & Unsaved Wound turns into Saved Wound
6. Removed Model suffer no Wounds

Makutsu wrote:Since both are triggered the both test are going to be executed at the same time.

If both pass, it would lead to a Removed Model and a Saved Wound.

That contradicts itself.

FNP tells us that the wound is considered to have been saved, so if you remove the model you are breaking the rules, because the wound is saved, and no longer an unsaved wound. Hexrifle can only remove a model if it suffers an unsaved wound, which it has not since FNP treats that wound as saved.

Both trigger off of the same condition. 6th edition have rules in place as to how to resolve such a situation.

DeathReaper wrote:

Makutsu wrote:Since both are triggered the both test are going to be executed at the same time.

If both pass, it would lead to a Removed Model and a Saved Wound.

That contradicts itself.

FNP tells us that the wound is considered to have been saved, so if you remove the model you are breaking the rules, because the wound is saved, and no longer an unsaved wound. Hexrifle can only remove a model if it suffers an unsaved wound, which it has not since FNP treats that wound as saved.

Did you even read the order of things?

FNP turns the wound saved after the roll is done, it doesn't go back to previous steps and change the wound to saved.

It changes the wound to saved AFTER it is done at the time after the effect of te Hexrifle takes place.

1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP & Hexrifle
3. Do Characteristic test & Resolve FNP
4. Assume Failed Characteristic Test & Pass FNP
5. Model Removed from Play & Unsaved Wound turns into Saved Wound <-- The wound is saved
6. Removed Model suffer no Wounds

You don't go backwards, what you are suggesting is that FNP goes first.

I already made 2 list of orders that suggests both Hexrifle going first and going the same time.

Both trigger off of the same condition. 6th edition have rules in place as to how to resolve such a situation.

And what would that be? giving a statement but not providing any proof causes confusion

Steelmage99 wrote:Both trigger off of the same condition. 6th edition have rules in place as to how to resolve such a situation.

time wizard's post deals with this.

time wizard wrote:nothing in the rules supports this. On the contrary, the section of the rules you cite as determining order(page 8 - the turn - exceptions) goes on to say that sometimes the actions of one player will activate a special rule and that in thoses cases the special rule will contain all needed information to resolve it.
This is closer to what happens here. The action of the attacking player (causing a wound) activates the action of the defending player (making a saving throw if it has one). The result of that action may activate a special rule. In this case, 2 special rules. They both, both feel no pain and the hexrifle rule, trigger on an unsaved wound. But, not to beat a dead horse, nowehere does it say what the order of operation is.

They (the attacking and defending players) are not both doing something at the same time, there is a sequence of events that is taking place. Hit, wound, save, special rules. I merely suggested that the FNP and chatarteristic test could be rolled for at the same time, because they both trigger on an unsaved wound, and a successful FNP roll would negate the unsaved wound and therefore ignore the characteristic test the hexrifle's special rule calls for.

Makutsu wrote:Did you even read the order of things?

FNP turns the wound saved after the roll is done, it doesn't go back to previous steps and change the wound to saved.

The order has nothing to do with it.

P.9 "At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time. When these things happen, the player whose turn it is decides the order in which the events occur."

The player with the Hexrifle does not have to do anything so this passage does not enter into it. The test for Hexrifle and Roll for FNP are both on the player that was shot with the Hexrifle, so they can choose to roll them in any order they wish.

But either way we treat the wound as saved if FNP is passed.

Why are you removing a model that saved a wound when Hexrifle calls for an unsaved wound?

To remove the model is to not treat the wound as saved.

Whatever if you say that there is no order to things then there's no point in discussion.

Order obviously exist that is why you resolve things "in order".

How in the world did I ever say the wound is not saved?

It is saved but after the hexrifle's effect take place.

You are removing it because hexrifle's effect have taken place first.

I have stated this multiple times and obviously you have been only looking at partial of the statement that I made.

Makutsu wrote:Whatever if you say that there is no order to things then there's no point in discussion.

Order obviously exist that is why you resolve things "in order".

How in the world did I ever say the wound is not saved?

It is saved but after the hexrifle's effect take place.

There is an order, but it has nothing to do with P.9 as "both players will have to do something at the same time" is not the case. Both players do not have to do something at the same time. The player with the model that was wounded has to do two different things.

Why are you removing a model if the wound was saved?

Hexrifle only triggers off of an unsaved wound, in this case we have a saved wound so we can not apply Hexrifle's effects as the is no longer an unsaved wound and the roll for the Hexrifle no longer matters if the wound is not an unsaved wound.

Why do they not have to do something at the same time?

Both ARE ALREADY triggered on an unsaved wound at the same time. <<<<<<-- Is this very hard to understand???????

And NO you do not remove a model because there is an unsaved wound, you remove a model because you failed the test.

The test happens at the same time as the FNP roll. So no matter what the outcome of FNP it would not affect the test to be rolled or not.

What you are saying is that FNP goes first and then the result is then used for Hexrifle.

The order that you are proposing is:
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP/Hexrifle
3. Resolve FNP
4. Pass FNP
5. Saved Wound still is in play
6. Wound becomes Saved, Hexrifle not in effect anymore

Then everything would make sense, If you would only read my posts earlier and make a valid statement I am done talking to someone who only thinks of his own argument is correct.

I have adjusted my statement due to valid arguments yet you only dwell on the same argument over and over again.

Makutsu wrote:I am done talking to someone who only thinks of his own argument is correct.

Wouldn't this be the same thing as you affirming a certain order of events and continually insisting that the order you define and specify is the only order of events?

Even when there is nothing in the rules to suggest that the order of events you insist on is the one, the only order of events for this situation?

Myself and a few others have agreed that both feel no pain and being removed by the hexrifle's special rule trigger on an unsaved wound. There is no argument there.

The key difference is that if the feel no pain roll is successful, then, "...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat is as having been saved."

Then there is no unsaved wound, and therefore nothing to trigger the hexrifle's special rule.

That's the paradox you conveniently ignore.

You cannot take a characteristic test for the hexrifle if the wound has been saved, and you cannot remove the model and then take a test to see if you negate the wound that already removed you..

The feel no pain rule says that it cannot be taken against wounds that cause instant death, but it doesn't say it cannot be taken against wounds caused by a hexrifle or that a model can be removed by a failed characteristic test but then save the wound after being removed. That's just ridiculous.

I am affirming my stance but adjusting my argument to what other statements against it. He was just repeating the exact same argument without providing a valid reason in my opinion

Now yours is a good argument.

I have never insisted on ONE order, I have argued for Hexrifle first, FNP first and going at the same time which is the one you suggested.
And the Exceptions on p.9 of the BRB pretty much explains a lot of the stuff.
At the end "Occasionaly, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit , or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need."

Assuming the "exceptional rule" is referring to the rule itself, it would mean that these events would be decided by the player of that turn.

Now the major thing here would be:
"...the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat is as having been saved."

But where should the Saved wound be put? At the beginning of all of this?
Before any effects that are triggered?
OR
it goes after the effects are triggered.

If it is the latter then Hexrifle would have already taken place and hence already been removed if you failed the test.

I do agree that if is the the former then no Hexrifle's effect would not take place as we are going back to step 1 again.

This would assume that FNP always goes first if we were to lay it out in terms of order as if FNP fails THEN other effects would come into play.

It doesn't say so and we ignore does not mean it doesn't happen.
We as players know that this would be a waste of time but there would be nothing negating FNP's effect even if Hexrifle's test failed.

Makutsu wrote: Now yours is a good argument.

Thank you! I appreciate that.

Makutsu wrote: At the end "Occasionaly, the actions of one player will trigger the sudden appearance of a particular unit , or may activate some special rule or occurrence. When this happens, the exceptional rule will contain all the information you need."

Assuming the "exceptional rule" is referring to the rule itself, it would mean that these events would be decided by the player of that turn.

I don't think it's a stretch to understand that the "exceptional rule" referred to would be either the special rule contained in the main rulebook or the special rule in the particular armies codex. In the case of feel no pain or the hexrifle characteristic test, neither rule states which rule should be activated first, hence the discussion.

Makutsu wrote: But where should the Saved wound be put? At the beginning of all of this?

Actually, saved wounds aren't put anywhere, they are saved and ignored.

Makutsu wrote: This would assume that FNP always goes first if we were to lay it out in terms of order as if FNP fails THEN other effects would come into play.

It doesn't say so and we ignore does not mean it doesn't happen.
We as players know that this would be a waste of time but there would be nothing negating FNP's effect even if Hexrifle's test failed.

It's been said many times on this forum that where a rules paradox occurs, the more correct solution is the one that breaks the fewest rules.

So let's examine the rule interaction here on a successful hit with a hexrifle, a successful wound, and a failed save on a model.

If you roll for the hexrifle's special rule first because of the unsaved wound, and the test is failed, then the model is removed from play.
That model would not be permitted to make a feel no pain roll, as it has been removed from play so it cannot make or take any further actions.
But feel no pain says that after suffering an unsaved wound, the model can make a roll.
But if the model is removed from play before taking this action then this special rule has been broken.

Now if the feel no pain roll is taken first and passed, the wound is ignored, and the hexrifle rule is followed and no characteristic test is made.
But if the FNP roll is failed, the model has suffered an unsaved wound and then a characteristic test is taken as per the hexrifle rule.

Whether the FP roll is passed or failed, both rules have been acted upon and no rules have been broken.

Taking the FNP test first followed by acting on the hexrifle rule breaks no rules, and follows the rules in both the main rulebook and the Dark Eldar codex as written.

It is really the only way to go.

Ok, then I agree with you if the correct solution the more correct solution is the one that breaks the fewest rules.

I still do not 100% agree with it but this makes sense in terms of your perspective.

But by RAW both is yet to be determined so it could be necessarily played both ways.

So guess we will have to wait for a FAQ.

time wizard wrote:If you roll for the hexrifle's special rule first because of the unsaved wound, and the test is failed, then the model is removed from play.
That model would not be permitted to make a feel no pain roll, as it has been removed from play so it cannot make or take any further actions.
But feel no pain says that after suffering an unsaved wound, the model can make a roll.
But if the model is removed from play before taking this action then this special rule has been broken.

Now if the feel no pain roll is taken first and passed, the wound is ignored, and the hexrifle rule is followed and no characteristic test is made.
But if the FNP roll is failed, the model has suffered an unsaved wound and then a characteristic test is taken as per the hexrifle rule.

Whether the FP roll is passed or failed, both rules have been acted upon and no rules have been broken.

Taking the FNP test first followed by acting on the hexrifle rule breaks no rules, and follows the rules in both the main rulebook and the Dark Eldar codex as written.

It is really the only way to go.

Except that you are breaking the Exceptional Rule. The Hexrifle breaks the FnP rule, so now which is right? Both ways break 1 rule.

Makutsu wrote:Why do they not have to do something at the same time?

The rule on P.9 tells us that "both players will have to do something at the same time" in this case, both players do not have to do something at the same time, as the Hexrifle test, and the FNP roll are both done by one player, that is why they both do not have to do something at the same time.

Makutsu wrote:Both ARE ALREADY triggered on an unsaved wound at the same time. <<<<<<-- Is this very hard to understand???????

Not hard to understand at all. but the player rolls FNP first and passes then the wound is SAVED... " Is this very hard to understand???????"

Makutsu wrote:And NO you do not remove a model because there is an unsaved wound, you remove a model because you failed the test.

The test happens at the same time as the FNP roll. So no matter what the outcome of FNP it would not affect the test to be rolled or not.

That is a fallacy, as FNP reverts the wound to a saved wound, so Hexrifle is no longer able to be rolled for.

Makutsu wrote:What you are saying is that FNP goes first and then the result is then used for Hexrifle.

The order that you are proposing is:
Order is like this.
1. Unsaved Wound
2. Trigger FNP/Hexrifle
3. Resolve FNP
4. Pass FNP
5. Saved Wound still is in play
6. Wound becomes Saved, Hexrifle not in effect anymore

Then everything would make sense, If you would only read my posts earlier and make a valid statement I am done talking to someone who only thinks of his own argument is correct.

I have adjusted my statement due to valid arguments yet you only dwell on the same argument over and over again.

The order that I am proposing is correct according to RAW.

megatrons2nd wrote:

time wizard wrote:Taking the FNP test first followed by acting on the hexrifle rule breaks no rules, and follows the rules in both the main rulebook and the Dark Eldar codex as written.

It is really the only way to go.

Except that you are breaking the Exceptional Rule. The Hexrifle breaks the FnP rule, so now which is right? Both ways break 1 rule.

No you are not, as the rule on P.9 refers to both players having to take an action.

"At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time." P.9

This IS NOT the case with taking FNP and the Hexrifle test, as only 1 player is taking action, not both, so P.9 does not apply.

Yes so you are saying that FNP goes first when there is no actual claim that it DOES go first go read time wizard's comment much better explained then just you liking FNP go first.

An additional rule being broken:

You are breaking the Hexrifle rule where it says "with no saves of any kind allowed" so it does not break FnP if the Hexrifle goes first as the Hexrifle specifically disallows any kind of save.


Now, if you say FnP is not a save than the Hexrifle would still be able to use it's ability if you pass FnP as it only treats the wound as saved but as it is not a save would still be unsaved.


Edit last part was based off of someone elses assumption disregard.

megatrons2nd wrote:An additional rule being broken:

You are breaking the Hexrifle rule where it says "with no saves of any kind allowed" so it does not break FnP if the Hexrifle goes first as the Hexrifle specifically disallows any kind of save.


Now, if you say FnP is not a save than the Hexrifle would still be able to use it's ability if you pass FnP as it only treats the wound as saved but as it is not a save would still be unsaved.


Edit last part was based off of someone elses assumption disregard.

No rules broken at all.

Feel No Pain Special rule in the BRB Page 35 wrote:...(this is not a saving throw)...

FNP is not a save, but we treat wounds from FNP as being saved, so we no longer have an unsaved wound, as we treat the wound as bieng saved.

It is not a saving throw, but it acts exactly like one. Slight but important difference.

It is all very clearly laid out in the FNP rules.

Makutsu wrote:Yes so you are saying that FNP goes first when there is no actual claim that it DOES go first go read time wizard's comment much better explained then just you liking FNP go first.

It does not matter if it goes first or second, once the FNP roll is passed we treat the wound as saved and ignore any effects that come from an unsaved wound, since we no longer have an unsaved wound.

It does not matter if it goes first or second, once the FNP roll is passed we treat the wound as saved and ignore any effects that come from an unsaved wound, since we no longer have an unsaved wound.

Nothing in the rules supports that though, its just a logical assumption we make.

Fragile wrote:

It does not matter if it goes first or second, once the FNP roll is passed we treat the wound as saved and ignore any effects that come from an unsaved wound, since we no longer have an unsaved wound.

Nothing in the rules supports that though, its just a logical assumption we make.

The FNP rules on P. 35 support it.

Since FNP tells us that "the unsaved Wound is discounted - freat it as having been saved."

If we discount it then nothing can trigger off of it.

But something already has triggered off of it, and resolved.

Fragile wrote:But something already has triggered off of it, and resolved.

And we have to discount the event that triggered it, so any effects of that event are no longer valid.

And thats the assumption, but nothing in the rules state that.

Remember Fragile, FNP is in and of itself a Paradox. It always has been, always will be.

Fragile wrote:And thats the assumption, but nothing in the rules state that.

If you discount something, everything that happens because of it no longer happens.

It is not an assumption, just the application of the Logic Process.

The main problem here is that any specific rule cannot be taken in isolation.

By that I mean that we must look at the rules as a total package or they make no sense at all.
Take the process of hits and wounds for example.

Page 13 says if a model has a saving throw it gets to make it. If that save is failed we have an unsaved wound. We now allocate that unsaved wound to the closest model, and if it is reduced to 0 wounds it is removed as a casualty.

In isolation, this rule means that no model would ever get a feel no pain roll, necrons would never get reanimation protocols, etc. We have to look at all the rules that apply here.

When we look at feel no pain, we find that if a model suffers an unsaved wound, "...it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)."

This rule gives 2 important pieces of information. First, it is not a saving throw, so it works against weapons that ignore cover saves, weapons that ignore armor saves in fact, the only time it doesn't work is against wounds that cause instant death. And it is made after saving throws have been made, because it is not a saving throw, the saving throw has to be failed for a FNP roll to be made. You can't try to feel no pain if no pain has even been inflicted!

Now second, it says if the roll is passed, the wound is avoided, it is discounted. the wound is treated as being saved, so the model has not suffered an unsaved wound from this point. So anything that would subsequently require an unsaved wound would be discounted as well.

So for any weapon on the board, there is the roll to hit, if passed the roll to wound, if made a wound is inflicted. If a save is available it is now rolled for and if failed, an unsaved wound is suffered. If there is feel no pain it is now rolled for and if failed we have that unsaved wound. If any of these events do not occur, there is no wound.

Now we have a weapon with a special rule, like the hexrifle. That weapon inflicts wounds like any other weapon. it must hit, wound, not be negated by a save and have an unsaved wound occur in order for it's special rule, a characteristic test to occur. But in between the failed save and the characteristic test there is another special rule that if successful, results in no wound at all, no unsaved wound. That is the feel no pain special rule.

Any model with this special that suffers an unsaved wound can make this roll to avoid being wounded. If the model is removed by any other special rule, then the model cannot make its feel no pain roll, it will then have broken the feel no pain rule that says it can make this roll.

I understand the "chicken and the egg" argument here, but as I've said, by rolling FNP first, no rule is being broken. If FNP is passed, there is no unsaved wound and any condition that triggers on an unsaved wound fails to occur. If FNP is failed, then the model has indeed suffered an unsaved wound and any condition that triggers on an unsaved wound will now occur.

If anyone is looking for the feel no pain rule to specifically say that this roll is made before any other rule that triggers on an unsaved wound, or a FAQ that says the same, I believe you will be disappointed. You see, in this case, the rule doesn't have to say that it is invoked first, it must be to break no other rules.

Except you are STILL breaking the fact that both wounds go on an unsaved wound thus falling into the Exceptional Rules ,and the active player chooses the order. Not to mention you are breaking the rules buy calling it saved when it is only treat as saved, so other effects should still go, or if the Hexrifle goes first the fact that no saves of any kind are allowed, treat as saved still is a save as you guys keep saying so the Hexrifle disallows it in it's rules. You can't argue is both ways is it or is it not a save?

megatrons2nd wrote:You can't argue is both ways is it or is it not a save?

Is it a saving throw? No. The rule says this, "...(this is not a saving throw)."

Is it a save? You, "...treat it [the unsaved wound] as having been saved."

But on a successfule roll, "...the unsaved Wound is discounted..."

It doesn't really matter if you want to argue it as being a save, being treated as a save, not being a saving throw. The bottom line is "...the unsaved Wound is discounted..."

So now there is no unsaved wound.

megatrons2nd wrote:Except you are STILL breaking the fact that both wounds go on an unsaved wound thus falling into the Exceptional Rules ,and the active player chooses the order.

Stop saying that, it is simply not true. (The underlined)

P.9 (the Exceptional Rules) say if both players have actions then we follow the process of the active player choosing the order.

"At other times, you'll find that both players will have to do something at the same time." P.9

1) Do both players have to do something at the same time? or 2) does one player have to do two things?

The answer is 2: Both players do not have actions here, only one player, the player rolling FNP and the test for the Hexrifle, has two actions, the opposing player does not have any actions, so the Exceptional Rules do not apply.

Both Hexrifle and FNP do go on an unsaved wound, but if FNP is made there is no longer an unsaved wound, we have to treat it as having been saved.
(Essentially we have to pretend we did not fail the saving throw, that may be a stretch for some, but I play D&D so pretending comes easy to me).

megatrons2nd wrote:Not to mention you are breaking the rules buy calling it saved when it is only treat as saved, so other effects should still go, or if the Hexrifle goes first the fact that no saves of any kind are allowed, treat as saved still is a save as you guys keep saying so the Hexrifle disallows it in it's rules. You can't argue is both ways is it or is it not a save?

Treating it as saved means it is as if we passed the armor save.

Passing an armor/cover/invulnerable save has the exact same effect as passing a FNP roll. Stop treating them differently, the wounds are treated as saved...

FNP is not a save, it says so in the rules for FNP. But FNP can create a saved wound, it says so in the rules for FNP.

Other effects do not go off, because there is no unsaved Wound after FNP is passed, even though there was an unsaved wound, we treat it as saved and no rules have to be broken.

DeathReaper wrote:

Passing an armor/cover/invulnerable save has the exact same effect as passing a FNP roll. Stop treating them differently, the wounds are treated as saved...

FNP is not a save, it says so in the rules for FNP. But FNP can create a saved wound, it says so in the rules for FNP.

Other effects do not go off, because there is no unsaved Wound after FNP is passed, even though there was an unsaved wound, we treat it as saved and no rules have to be broken.

Funny, hexrifle says no saves of any kind. Treat as saved sounds like a type of save to me. Especially since you are saying it is exactly the same as passing the armor save. As both rules are began by different players they are 2 players having to do something at 1 time. My rule just has you making the roll. Thus putting into play The exceptional rule. How would you know if you are supposed to make the roll if I do not tell you to? My action in telling you about my rule. You are arguing a bit of a stretch in the rules.

You also argue retroactive changes for FnP if it passes and discounts another ability, but you deny retroactive changes do to the activation of Force, which an FnP would not be allowed as it is instant death.

megatrons2nd wrote:Funny, hexrifle says no saves of any kind. Treat as saved sounds like a type of save to me. Especially since you are saying it is exactly the same as passing the armor save. As both rules are began by different players they are 2 players having to do something at 1 time. My rule just has you making the roll. Thus putting into play The exceptional rule. How would you know if you are supposed to make the roll if I do not tell you to? My action in telling you about my rule. You are arguing a bit of a stretch in the rules.

You also argue retroactive changes for FnP if it passes and discounts another ability, but you deny retroactive changes do to the activation of Force, which an FnP would not be allowed as it is instant death.

Feel No Pain says that it is not a saving throw, that if successful "...the unsaved wound is discounted...".

And FNP also says, "Note that Feel No Pain rolls cannot be made against unsaved Wounds that inflicy Instant Death."

Doesn't say you can't take them against wounds caused by Hexrifles.

megatrons2nd wrote:Funny, hexrifle says no saves of any kind. Treat as saved sounds like a type of save to me. Especially since you are saying it is exactly the same as passing the armor save.

As Time Wizard has said, FNP specifically says it is not a Save. However it can produce the same effects as a saving throw. (FNP Is Special like that).

megatrons2nd wrote:As both rules are began by different players they are 2 players having to do something at 1 time. My rule just has you making the roll. Thus putting into play The exceptional rule. How would you know if you are supposed to make the roll if I do not tell you to? My action in telling you about my rule. You are arguing a bit of a stretch in the rules.

You also argue retroactive changes for FnP if it passes and discounts another ability, but you deny retroactive changes do to the activation of Force, which an FnP would not be allowed as it is instant death.

See, the definition of both players having to do something at the same time is Both players doing something, not one player making two rolls.

The Player with the Hexrifle, after he rolls to hit and wound, no longer has anything to do.

The opposing player now has to roll saves, and roll for FNP, and roll for any Hexrifle tests. The player with the hexrifle does not do anything.
(Telling your opponent about the rule is not "Doing something" in the context of the Exceptional rules, as it refers to an action like a roll or removal of casualties).

After reading this I found something on The Rules Lawyers dot com. It's pretty interesting. Take a read, see if you agree.

http://www.theruleslawyers.com/2011/10/rulings-dark-eldar-hex-rifles-vs-feel-no-pain/#more-742

a) That was a decision made last edition - before FNPs wording changed
b) I disagreed with it then, I disagree with it now.

I'm actually curious. When I read the rules for the Hexrifle.

“A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Vehicles cannot be affected by hexrifles.”

I wondered about which saves the codex was referring to? If it's not referring to FNP, which I'm not saying it does, what saves is it talking about (because obviously armor saves have already been taken)? Which saves are actually bypassed by the HexRifles' rules? In 5th? In 6th?

FNP now is not a save, but it includes FNP in 5th edition and invun saves and all saves.

I would have to say it doesn't make any sense for a person to get crystallized still be able to wiggle it off...

Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Makutsu wrote:Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Which I can almost guarantee won't cover it. Just like last edition, and possibly previous editions.

MightyGodzilla wrote:I'm actually curious. When I read the rules for the Hexrifle.

“A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Vehicles cannot be affected by hexrifles.”

I wondered about which saves the codex was referring to?

It reinforces that you do not get an armor/cover/invulnerable save against its effect.

Makutsu wrote:Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Incorrect, as I have shown rules that say there is a correct way. They will likely not FAQ it.

Makutsu wrote:I would have to say it doesn't make any sense for a person to get crystallized still be able to wiggle it off...

Yea, The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

I change my out look. I have re-read all applicable rules. FnP work against weapons that are double toughness now. See page 16 where it says when a model takes an unsaved wound from a weapon with double it's toughness. As DeathReaper says you don't know if it is unsaved until after FnP is made. Now look on page 38 the actual Instant death special rule, where it says this weapon automatically causes instant death. Working the way DeathReaper says actually makes Dark Eldar not die against strength 6+ weapons. Thank you DeathReapeer for making Dark Eldar better.

DeathReaper wrote:

MightyGodzilla wrote:I'm actually curious. When I read the rules for the Hexrifle.

“A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test based on their Wounds value (i.e. the one on their profile, not their current Wounds). If they fail the test, they are removed from play, with no saves of any kind. Vehicles cannot be affected by hexrifles.”

I wondered about which saves the codex was referring to?

It reinforces that you do not get an armor/cover/invulnerable save against its effect.

Makutsu wrote:Anyways this is all just a debate and no correct way, I am pretty sure we will have to wait for a FAQ

Incorrect, as I have shown rules that say there is a correct way. They will likely not FAQ it.

Makutsu wrote:I would have to say it doesn't make any sense for a person to get crystallized still be able to wiggle it off...

Yea, The rules were not written to be "Modern day real world" logical.

The rules are an abstract system used to simulate a battle in the year 40,000.

What would happen in the modern day real world has nothing to do with the RAW, or the simulation of a battle fought 38,000 years from now.

You are still assuming FNP goes first, I am not arguing on this anymore.

The rules for Hexrifle was written with 5th edition in mind when saves would go then the effect of Hexrifle.

FNP now is put into a weird position and will probably be FAQ'd to make it more clear.

Look at the poll on the other thread, 50/50 of the people agree on 2 different things clearly when something is that debatable there's something wrong with the clarity of the rules.

Makutsu wrote:You are still assuming FNP goes first, I am not arguing on this anymore.

The rules for Hexrifle was written with 5th edition in mind when saves would go then the effect of Hexrifle.

FNP now is put into a weird position and will probably be FAQ'd to make it more clear.

Look at the poll on the other thread, 50/50 of the people agree on 2 different things clearly when something is that debatable there's something wrong with the clarity of the rules.

Only if you ignore what FNP says.

In all reality It does not matter which one goes first, as once you pass a FNP roll the wound is not unsaved, and to apply effects that work off of unsaved wounds is breaking the rules, since the wound is treated as saved, and not unsaved. We can not remove the model even if it failed a hexrifle test, as there is no unsaved wound anymore after FNP is passed so removing the model on a saved wound, when the Hexrifle effect calls for an unsaved wound is breaking the rules.

megatrons2nd wrote:I change my out look. I have re-read all applicable rules. FnP work against weapons that are double toughness now. See page 16 where it says when a model takes an unsaved wound from a weapon with double it's toughness. As DeathReaper says you don't know if it is unsaved until after FnP is made. Now look on page 38 the actual Instant death special rule, where it says this weapon automatically causes instant death. Working the way DeathReaper says actually makes Dark Eldar not die against strength 6+ weapons. Thank you DeathReapeer for making Dark Eldar better.

Except FNP Specifically disallows the roll if the Str is 2X toughness so if that is the case, then FNP can not be rolled.

What exactly are you getting at here?

There is all of three weapons I have found that just cause instant death. The Eldar D-cannon, wraithcannon, and Karandrukers(sp) Decapitator. They all "cause instant death on a to wound roll of 6". Most(since I may have missed one) other weapons say you must suffer an unsaved wound before it causes instant death. As you have stated, many times, you don't know if the wound is unsaved until you roll for FnP. Using your logic not even the basic Instant death comes before FnP. I am not "breaking" FnP as I am just following the rule as not making the FnP roll first breaks FnP rule.

megatrons2nd wrote: Using your logic not even the basic Instant death comes before FnP.

Sorry, this is just wrong. Instant death does not come before FNP.

The Feel No Pain rule specifically states that FNP rolls cannot be made against unsaved wounds that cause instant death.

If you have a weapon that always causes instant death on a roll of '6', then;

You roll to hit, if you hit you roll to wound, if you roll a 6 the wound, if unsaved, causes instant death. The target model rolls any applicable save, if successful nothing happens, if failed, the model suffers instant death and is removed. No FNP roll can be made against unsaved wounds that cause instant death.

Don't know where you are going with this, but this part at least is really pretty cut and dried.

His point is that Deathreaper argues that nothing can ever ever ever come before FnP as you don't actually know if you have an unsaved wound until you've rolled FnP.

Therefore, since FnP is rolled before an unsaved wound is actually inflicted, thereby trumping all other effects that trigger off the same thing, you can indeed roll for it on effects that inflict instant death, as that wound never happened, and was saved instead.

nohman wrote:
Therefore, since FnP is rolled before an unsaved wound is actually inflicted, thereby trumping all other effects that trigger off the same thing, you can indeed roll for it on effects that inflict instant death, as that wound never happened, and was saved instead.

Incorrect. Feel No Pain, page 35, first sentence, "When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound..." {emphasis mine}

A model first suffers an unsaved wound.

If the wound inflicted is not one that inflicts instant death, the model can make a FNP roll to avoid the wound.

If the FNP roll is successful, the wound is discounted, you treat it as being saved. It wasn't saved, in fact the saving throw has to have been failed for the unsaved wound to occur, but you treat it as being saved.

The correct order is that first the wound happens, then a saving throw is made, then a FNP roll can be made.

So you do agree that you roll for the hexrifle then? Since after all, the triggers on an unsaved wound, since as you yourself say, the wound wasn't saved.

nohman wrote:So you do agree that you roll for the hexrifle then? Since after all, the triggers on an unsaved wound, since as you yourself say, the wound wasn't saved.

You could roll for the Hexrifle, but if you Pass FNP it has no effect.

As the player with two actions to take, you should always roll FNP first though, since its outcome determines if the Hexrifle has any effect at all.

nohman wrote:So you do agree that you roll for the hexrifle then? Since after all, the triggers on an unsaved wound, since as you yourself say, the wound wasn't saved.

I do agree that, "A model that suffers an unsaved wound from a hexrifle must take a characteristic test..."

And I further agree that a model with the FNP special rule can roll, "...to avoid being wounded..."

So, if after all relevant rolls have been made, the model is found to have failed the characteristic test called for by the hexrifle special rule, it is removed at that point.

However a number of variables still come into play.

The hexrifle attack hits and wounds a model.

If it passes its save nothing else happens. if it doesn't pass its save or doensn't get one, it has suffered an unsaved Wound.

If it fails its save and has 1 Wound remaining on its profile, it is removed due to the unsaved wound. It doesn't have to take the characteristic test. Why should it? It is removed.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it passes that, it still takes the wound, but only the one.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it fails that, it is removed.

If it fails its save and has 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and fails that roll, it is removed due to the unsaved wound.

If it fails its save and has 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and passes that roll, nothing else happens, the wound has been avoided.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and passes, nothing else happens, the wound has been avoided.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and fails, then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it passes that, it still takes the wound, but only the one.

If it fails its save and has more than 1 Wound remaining on its profile, and can roll for feel no pain, and fails, then it must roll for a characteristic test on its Wounds profile, and if it fails that, it is removed.

You see, the key is that on an unsaved wound the target must make 2 rolls, one for feel no pain and one for the hexrifle special rule. If you make the hexrifle roll first and remove the model, then it cannot make the FNP roll, which by rule, it can make. You can't take any actions for models that are removed. Not unless they have a specific exception like fluers zooming off the table edge.

So in the case of the hexrifle vs FNP rolls debate, the only way to not break the FNP rule, which grants a roll on an unsaved wound, is to make that roll before the characteristic test. Because if the FNP roll is passed, then there is no unsaved wound and the hexrifle roll cannot be made. But if the characteristic test is made first and the model is removed, then it cannot make the FNP roll.

But there's nothing new here, this has all been brought out and bantered back and fort through 6 or so pages by now. So think of this as a recap. There is no line in the rule that says "Feel No Pain rolls are made before hexrifle characteristic test are made." nor is it likely theree will ever be such a line. As I said a few pages back, rolling for FNP breaks no rules and is the more correct rder of operations.

If you feel otherwise, then play it how you wish. There is no 100% definite method based on the current writing of the rules, and IMO this discussion is just going around in circles at this point.

How about those other weapons whose roll cause instant death on the test? He says FnP goes before those as well. They can end up causing instant death, and as they have the instant death rule you should not be able to FnP it. His argument is used on those weapons as well.

megatrons2nd wrote:How about those other weapons whose roll cause instant death on the test? He says FnP goes before those as well. They can end up causing instant death, and as they have the instant death rule you should not be able to FnP it. His argument is used on those weapons as well.

Then, as I said 6 posts before yours,

time wizard wrote:If you have a weapon that always causes instant death on a roll of '6', then;

You roll to hit, if you hit you roll to wound, if you roll a 6 the wound, if unsaved, causes instant death. The target model rolls any applicable save, if successful nothing happens, if failed, the model suffers instant death and is removed. No FNP roll can be made against unsaved wounds that cause instant death.

time wizard, I think he was referring to weapons that on a failed (or successful) test cause ID, i.e. boneswords and Force weapons.

As I stated in the FNP poll, IMO, if the weapon has the potential to cause ID, then you would follow the rule on page 9(?) and whoesever turn it is would get to choose. Note, however, that for certain weapons (such as boneswords) since the same player rolls both dice, he would get to choose order.

Happyjew wrote:Note, however, that for certain weapons (such as boneswords) since the same player rolls both dice, he would get to choose order.

That is correct.

P.9 does not apply to the Hexrifle vs FNP either. Only one person has actions, the person with the Hexrifle has no action, as it is on his opponent to make a FNP roll and a Test because of the Hexrifle.

Another addition to the argument:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."


As the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative, you can pass FnP and still be removed from play. Remember treat as saved is an effect, and both rules begin at the same time.

megatrons2nd wrote:Another addition to the argument:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

As the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative, you can pass FnP and still be removed from play. Remember treat as saved is an effect, and both rules begin at the same time.

Both rules are triggered by the same thing, an unsaved wound.

As for being cumulative or formed by or resulting from accumulation or the addition of successive parts or elements, the addition of being removed by failing a characteristic test is an additional rule or an additional part or element of the wounding process. It requires an unsaved wound for the effect to occur.

And once FNP is passed, the hitherto unsaved wound has been discounted. There is no longer an unsaved wound. So anything that builds on that condition or is an additional part based on that condition, is ignored.

Once you have passed the roll for feel no pain, you cannot take any other test based on an unsaved wound, because the unsaved wound no longer exists. And you can't make the feel no pain roll after failing the test and being removed, because after being removed you can't take any action. The action of being removed has already occurred. So you must have taken the FNP roll first or you wouldn't be around to take or not take the hexrifle characteristic test.

Time Wizard has it correct.

If you take the Hexrifle test first and remove the model you break FNP's rule allowing you a FNP roll.

If you take FNP first, then no rules are broken.

Megatrons2nd (why is your avatar not Starscream?) is just responding to your earlier claims that Feel No Pain must come before other effects as it can lead to a saved wound. Your words seem to imply, at least to my eyes, that is the case, when it isn't. Abilities that are triggered after an unsaved wound all happen at the same time, unless they specifically state otherwise, like Force Weapons. No one can claim to go before the other without additional wording, like in Force which has immediately included.

Now I agree with you DeathReaper on that is how the order should go, but only because it keeps the game simpler and flows better. Technically though I think Megatrons2nd is correct in his own interpretation, cause that is how I read it as well, but as you said that can lead to breaking rules. It is best to avoid breaking rules when you can so rolling the Feel No Pain before is the simplest solution for that. IMHO, during a game it hardly matters which is rolled first as long as both players know that upon a successful Feel No Pain roll the Hex Rifle would not take effect. IF the DE player wants the other rolled first, you can entertain him, just make sure to point out if Feel No Pain is passed your model(s) is/aren't going away. No argument need be had, and if one does arise perhaps that person isn't worth playing against.

time wizard wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:Another addition to the argument:

"Unless specifically stated, a model cannot gain the benefit of a special rule more than once. However, the effects of multiple different special rules are cumulative."

As the effects of multiple special rules are cumulative, you can pass FnP and still be removed from play. Remember treat as saved is an effect, and both rules begin at the same time.

Both rules are triggered by the same thing, an unsaved wound.

As for being cumulative or formed by or resulting from accumulation or the addition of successive parts or elements, the addition of being removed by failing a characteristic test is an additional rule or an additional part or element of the wounding process. It requires an unsaved wound for the effect to occur.

And once FNP is passed, the hitherto unsaved wound has been discounted. There is no longer an unsaved wound. So anything that builds on that condition or is an additional part based on that condition, is ignored.

Once you have passed the roll for feel no pain, you cannot take any other test based on an unsaved wound, because the unsaved wound no longer exists. And you can't make the feel no pain roll after failing the test and being removed, because after being removed you can't take any action. The action of being removed has already occurred. So you must have taken the FNP roll first or you wouldn't be around to take or not take the hexrifle characteristic test.

Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.



Note that FnP does not specify that it ignores the effects of stacking rules. FnP disallowing Removed from play is breaking the removed from play part of the rule. Although with the multiple Special rule stacking, I now believe that Necrons should get there Resurrection protocols against Removed from play rules.

My avatar is Megatron because most people fail to notice the 2nd part and they ask my why it is Starscream as my avatar. Also I haven't found the Emperor Starscream(or was it King) photo I like yet.

megatrons2nd wrote:
Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.



Note that FnP does not specify that it ignores the effects of stacking rules. FnP disallowing Removed from play is breaking the removed from play part of the rule.

It is not breaking the removed from play part of the rule, as once FNP is passed the wound is no longer unsaved, we have to treat it as saved, so the Hexrifle test can not be made.

DeathReaper wrote:

megatrons2nd wrote:
Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.



Note that FnP does not specify that it ignores the effects of stacking rules. FnP disallowing Removed from play is breaking the removed from play part of the rule.

It is not breaking the removed from play part of the rule, as once FNP is passed the wound is no longer unsaved, we have to treat it as saved, so the Hexrifle test can not be made.

No saves of ANY kind are allowed against the Removed from play portion of the Hexrifle rules. So now you broke the save portion of the Hexrifle.

megatrons2nd wrote:No saves of ANY kind are allowed against the Removed from play portion of the Hexrifle rules. So now you broke the save portion of the Hexrifle.

"When a model with this special rule suffers an unsaved Wound, it can make a special Feel No Pain roll to avoid being wounded (this is not a saving throw)." P.35

FNP is not a saving throw.

But if we pass FNP "On a [Number], the unsaved Wound is discounted - treat it as having been saved" we have to treat the unsaved Wound as having been saved.

So while FNP is not a saving throw, it can create a saved wound.

It does not say saving throw of any kind. It says SAVES of any kind. A saved wound is a save, is it not? Treat as saved is a save, is it not? Since saves of any kind would be a saved wound you are not allowed to save it.

And since special rules stack you can have no wound, but still suffer the effects of other special rules.

FNP is not a save.

P.19 "MAXIMUM SAVE" section (Caps retained for the integrity of the quote) Equates Saving throw with save:

"no save (armour, cover or invulnerable) can ever be improved beyond..."

The previous section, models with more than one save, also equate Saving throw to save with the quote:

"a model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save."

Saving throw = Save.

megatrons2nd wrote:Which returns us to general Instant death rule can't beat FnP as the instant death rule specifies that you require an unsaved wound as the condition before the wounds are dropped to 0. The Instant Death Special rule does not have that condition, so only D-Cannons, Wraith Cannons, and the Decapitator would work as they do not have the Unsaved wound clause.

It is not the instant death rule that negates a feel no pain roll, it is the Feel No Pain rule!

FNP states the rule does not work against unsaved wounds which cause instant death!