Since 6th ed. dropped people have been going bananas for Terminators. I think that it is fairly uncontroversial to state that the edition has helped them by reducing the cover save modifier, by making power weapons ap3, and by making the deep strike chart less dangerous. This being said, are these and other benefits enough to justify the superstar status that Terminators have in the minds of many gamers?

Terminators have a great save. However, I think that they are just as vulnerable to shooting as they were in last edition. Also since the meta seems to be moving towards shooting, this could be a problem for Termis.

There is no doubt that they are better in close combat than in 5th ed. However, to get into combat they will be the target of more shooting. Once in combat they will likely win. However, once stuck in, it is likely that they will be tarpitted. Terminators were never really good at dealing with hordes, as they lack the number of attacks to deal with them. With the changes to fearless, tarpitting is more effective in 6th than in 5th. Armies that do not have fearless hordes, will likely play multiple small units. If the terminators make it to the enemy lines, they will assault one unit, kill it, and then probably be gunned down by other units.

So what do you think? Do shooty Terminators beat out other units? Will CC Terminators be effective this edition?

I have truly never understood how people would believe that terminators are viable now suddenly just because of a nerf to power weapons.

As you can read in the post above, the terminators biggest issue has always been that they are targets for too much AP 2 shooting. And there's quite a lot of that nowdays. This hasn't changed at all so why would people call 6th for terminator edition? It's just silly. You would rather believe the opposite now when plasma guns are even better.

Did either of you stop to think why there's now so much AP2 shooting?

Well, they didn't get better but the rules makes them a superior choice in cc. But there is still the problem to bring them into the thickest melee.

Terminator are definitely boosted and are far harder to kill. However their main weakness (few bodies) is not changed so the same methods for taking out terminators apply. (I.E. more wounds and special weapons.)

The Nerf actually has the most effect on terminator on terminator violence. Whereas before Draigowing was probably top Deathwing has replaced it and loganwing is second (even fewer bodies.).

Terminators are better in close combat. Even the previously ignored Tactical terminators are useful. GK terminators took a hit because they don't have AP2 melee weapons aside from Hammers, and no Storm Shield access.

They no longer fear melee units that carry bucket loads of power weapons, except those with Axes.

In shooting, they are slightly less durable because of the reduction in cover. Those weapons that do ignore their armor at range got better because cover is now only 5+.

So far they still are not a problem for Nids. We have access to a ton of units that ignore armor in CC (Rending claws, boneswords, MCs). Even Thunderhammers have problems because those units tend to strike first (Tervigon excepted).

And for shooting we just default to the buckets of dice method. 20 Devgaunts fire 60 shots and with PE they are pretty nastly for a 200pt unit.

But at the end of the day terminators are not a real issue for anyone who has access to cheap troops that are fearless or stubbon. Just tarpit them and ignore.

Terminators are only king in threads that give people an excuse to poo-poo power weapons.

My sergeants will be toting plasma pistols in 6th Ed. It makes me happy because plasma pistols look so bad ass!

With all of the Fear of 2+ everyone is loading up on AP1-2 weapons. I think in the long run they will do better, but right now they have the survivability of Vehicles just form the Fallout.

Well it certainly seems that they are not king, especially with all of the plasma that people will be taking thanks to the new vehicle rules. Maybe people are considering them because of the meta. At the moment the army to beat is Necrons. I don't think that Terminators are especially good against them.

The biggest buff to Termies is not the armour rules, but FNP rules. Units of Grey Knights, and Blood Angels running around with FNP will be big, and difficult to deal with. Most AP2 weapons are not strong enough to kill them out right, so the get inv saves and the FNP saves.

jbunny wrote:The biggest buff to Termies is not the armour rules, but FNP rules. Units of Grey Knights, and Blood Angels running around with FNP will be big, and difficult to deal with. Most AP2 weapons are not strong enough to kill them out right, so the get inv saves and the FNP saves.

You forgot the Deathwing

They are the prince of the assault phase thanks to the PW nerf.

They're in the same boat they were last edition as far as the shooting phase is concerned.

The true king of the assault phase though is multiwound units with one or more 2+ saves, one of which is on an independent character and/or is rerollable.

Dark Harliestars, the infamous Nob Bikers, etcetera. They truly are the best CC units this edition.

And at 500+ points for one of these things, they fething well better be.

Deathwing is probably the most dangerous as they can get half their squads into CC turn 2 and can take both stormshields and cylcones in the same unit.

spaceelf wrote:At the moment the army to beat is Necrons. I don't think that Terminators are especially good against them.

Necrons have almost no AP2 shooting, and the only strong infantry unit, wraiths, are hard countered by terminators. Heavy terminator armies are going to give wraiths a lot of problems, especially armies like chaos that can outfit their terminators with nice bonuses, and put reaper autocannons on characters for picking out pesky necron crypteks and lords.

Testify wrote:Terminators are only king in threads that give people an excuse to poo-poo power weapons.

^ This.

Lokas wrote:Dark Harliestars, the infamous Nob Bikers, etcetera. They truly are the best CC units this edition.

And at 500+ points for one of these things, they fething well better be.

And with a teeny bit of mobility your archon is suddenly not the closest model, and your harlies get eaten veeery quickly. Nob bikers are comparable to terminators, because they are tough and heavy hitting individuals.
I found the easiest way to deal with terminators before was to turn AP2 weapons on them such as plasma. Against a huge block of terminators I might not have enough plasma. But 1200p is ALOT to spend on terminators.

flak still kills terminators. also, the necrons have the death ray.

terminators are not a hard counter to wraiths. the wraiths have many attacks and rending with a 3+ save. would be a good fight.

in general though, if you can deliver the terminators, they got better.

I played my deathwing against a 1000 pts. Mech IG army. It was a massacre.

I should have stayed at the back, shooting with 48'' range weapons forcing the enemy to come to me, so he could get the objectives. He was completely foregoing objectives throughout the game.

Instead I tried to get into CC, but was met with a wall of Chimeras, had terrible rolls for penetration and only immobilized one of the vehicles, killed 2 infantry squads through the whole game. He forced me to roll for so many saves that even a 3++ save was a joke.

Bottom line, terminators will not protect you from grossly misunderstanding which kind of fight you are getting into. Which I admit, I made a total tactical mistake.

I play a GK paladin army, and I think that the changes to rapid fire, along with the rush for people to take as much plasma as possible, is going to actually hurt terminator armies in 6th edition. 5th edition armies featured tons of meltas, which were limited in range, and could be outshot by storm bolters and psycannons at 24 inches. Now most enemy units will be packing one or two plasmaguns, which can stand and shoot two shots each at 24 inches, forcing terminators to rely on their invulnerable saves. Deathwing armies are probably best able to handle this since they can run TH/SS + a cyclone launcher in each squad, but they're likely getting updated soon and who knows how long that will last?

OP; No. They still are t4, have 1 wound, and a Leman Russ variant of equivalent price could hit them so hard their paint strips. Everything has a counter, nothing is king.

A big nice thing about terminator is the reduction of cover saves

basically if youre running them up the field, there isnt a difference between 5+ invuln or 5+ cover

Jihallah wrote:

Lokas wrote:Dark Harliestars, the infamous Nob Bikers, etcetera. They truly are the best CC units this edition.

And at 500+ points for one of these things, they fething well better be.

And with a teeny bit of mobility your archon is suddenly not the closest model, and your harlies get eaten veeery quickly. Nob bikers are comparable to terminators, because they are tough and heavy hitting individuals.

Emphasis mine.

Yes, you can outmaneuver and shoot up a harliestar. It's still one of (if not the) best close combat units in the game.

OP: as has been said earlyier No they arent king.

i have played only a few games, but i still find that enough bolters still do the job.

So no they not king. you just cant really kill them in close combat as easily anymore

Godless-Mimicry wrote:Did either of you stop to think why there's now so much AP2 shooting?

Still my Tyranids gently weep... (but at least our special CC weapons are all straight-up armour ignoring)

So, I had a soft spot for tactical terminators before, and yes, now they did just get better. It's not just that fewer things hurt them, it's that shooting just got better, and tac termies were already good at that.

I agree that you've got to resist the urge to think that somehow termies became ultra-awesome now, but its equally bad to continue to underestimate what they are capable of, especially in a world where they got a little better.

Will terminators be king of 6th ed? No, that title belongs to mech gunlines. Did terminators get better? Yes, so if you already secretly wanted to take them but could never justify it, you might want to give them a try now.


As for people with Ap2 weapons vs. terminators, so what? I've seen WAY more terminators drop to weight of fire, than Ap2+ weapons. My guard ripper gunned or exterminatored them to death, DE threw down their RIDICULOUS number of venom+small arms attacks, orks drug them down with mass choppaz (or, well, now they'd be using shootas). This was especially true in a world where storm shields are so popular.

who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

mcpothead wrote:who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

10 hits, 5 wounds, slightly less than one dead Terminator. Then what?

My chaos termies perform pretty much exactly as they did in 5th.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

10 hits, 5 wounds, slightly less than one dead Terminator. Then what?

120 shots = 10 hits?

How do you roll - spack handed?

On overwatch, with Shootas, it'd probably be 20 hits, no?

120/60 = 20 hits, 10 wounds, almost 2 dead Termies.

Then the 30 Shoota boys hit with 2 attacks each (if they are vanilla terminators), for 30 hits, 15 wounds, and that's 2.5 dead.

Then you get .5 - 1 terminators to swing back.

Though, really, anyone charging a mob of shoota boys with Terminators is asking for it. You should only charge severly weakened squads of Orks, and even better if you relegate Terminators to counter Nobz.

And really, if you are letting a mob of 30 boyz stand as a Space Marine player, you are doing a bad job. There might be 10 Boyz left a marine player is thinning the herd properly. (shooting the boyz off the board until they are 18" away, especially now that you can step back and fire full range now!)

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

10 hits, 5 wounds, slightly less than one dead Terminator. Then what?

120 shots = 10 hits?

How do you roll - spack handed?

I didn't think you meant for the Orks to move into charge range, shoot the Terminators and then not charge. Seriously, what kind of Ork player gives away the charge?

haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

mcpothead wrote:who cares about 2+ don't even need ap2 weps.

Terminators have and always will go down to mass small arms fire.

30 Shoota Boyz - 60 shots + overwatch bye terminators

To clarify

(in your shooting phase) 60 shots- 20 hits- 10 wounds-1 dead term
(my shooting phase) 10 s4 shots 6 hits 3 dead
(my charge phase)54 shots-9 hits-4.5 wounds-1dead

then weight of attacks grinds down.

but that is a poor example because DW will never take on an ork mob with one unit

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Won't happen i will take out about 10 from shootin hit you with a LC squad and librarian and watch as you are down to 5 and you can't kill me. Trust me there is a reason why deathwing is still viable.

captain collius wrote:

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Won't happen i will take out about 10 from shootin hit you with a LC squad and librarian and watch as you are down to 5 and you can't kill me. Trust me there is a reason why deathwing is still viable.

Who's talking about deathwing?

I'm talking about 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of shoota boyz

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Because the game isn't played in a vacuum.

mcpothead wrote:

I'm talking about 1 squad of terminators vs 1 squad of shoota boyz

Fair enough, both squads clearly have the same goal and are most likely to fight each other in an actual batte.

Kevlar wrote:

spaceelf wrote:At the moment the army to beat is Necrons. I don't think that Terminators are especially good against them.

Necrons have almost no AP2 shooting, and the only strong infantry unit, wraiths, are hard countered by terminators. Heavy terminator armies are going to give wraiths a lot of problems, especially armies like chaos that can outfit their terminators with nice bonuses, and put reaper autocannons on characters for picking out pesky necron crypteks and lords.

I don't need AP 2/1 weapons to kill Termies when I'm putting out 160 shots every turn.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

mcpothead wrote:haha clearly not played orks 6th edition have you?

Due to the nerfs to furious charge/random charge range and the addition of overwatch there is no need to charge in certain situation such as terminators.

As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

No, really, Overwatch from 30 Shoota Boyz kills slightly less than one Terminator. Besides, the nerf to Furious Charge doesn't matter for Orks against MEQ, because it's the S buff they want, not the now-defunct I buff. 30 Shoota Boyz shooting and then charging not only gets the Strength buff, but also denies the enemy attacks while gaining more themselves. Forsaking that for a round of Overwatch of dubious efficiency, where the enemy might just walk away (seriously, who charges 30 Boyz with Hammernators anyway?) is just silly.

You are proving my point the terminators are scared to charge therefore milling around doing nothing other than getting shot. Why charge and risk loosing lots of boyz when I can sit here and dwindle your numbers.

Because the game isn't played in a vacuum.

Thank you. So many people forget this.

Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

5+ invulnerable save, but you're point is taken. I really like the Flamers from the WD update for Daemons.

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Take it you ma Invul., but in most cases Terminators will have a 3+, not a 5+.

A loganwing this edition pretty much won't sweat anything from horde to hybrid.

Death wing, Logan wing and GK termi armies are gonna be tough cookies to crack.

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Take it you ma Invul., but in most cases Terminators will have a 3+, not a 5+.

In which case the flamers hang back at max range with pink horrors taking terminators out with volume of fire while heralds mutate any that survive, and screamers come in to clean up what's left.

Lokas wrote:

Jihallah wrote:

Lokas wrote:Dark Harliestars, the infamous Nob Bikers, etcetera. They truly are the best CC units this edition.

And at 500+ points for one of these things, they fething well better be.

And with a teeny bit of mobility your archon is suddenly not the closest model, and your harlies get eaten veeery quickly. Nob bikers are comparable to terminators, because they are tough and heavy hitting individuals.

Emphasis mine.

Yes, you can outmaneuver and shoot up a harliestar. It's still one of (if not the) best close combat units in the game.

Yes, but if ye cannot get it to CC, it's not a good CC unit is it

Honestly, I play nids and I make quick work of terminators with gene stealers, other than that I have monstrous creatures to deal with them. If our not playing nids though putting enough wounds on them from anywhere, close combat or shooting, termies will die.

How many armies relied on power weapons to down termies anyway?
GK maybe which I guess every other player was playing, but they have mostly changed to necrons.

Do I have to reminisce about 5th edition where you would have to rapid fire termies to death with tactical squads.

I disagree with terminators becoming the king of 6th. Some armies may have trouble with them as they always have, however armies like guard still have the demolishers and executioners which got better. A terminator heavy list will suffer to armies with a few of these units. The other problem been that demolishers have enough uses to warrent taking them in many lists. I think this is the counter that will stop termies been king.

That said, many armies will still be packing huge amounts of high strength ap2 from the mech armies of 5th.

They way I see it, Terminators got their tactical dreadnaught armored asses handed to them by Boyz, long before power weapons were AP3. So it hasnt changed my attack plan on them at all.

To be honest, the new snap fire rules are great and the bane of Terminators. If you take the ork approach of just hurling enough shots at them, regardless of BS you will eventually take them down.

Last weeks game, I had my full tactical squad rock up in a Rhino, on a 5 man Grey Knights Terminator squad. Got out, riddled them with Rapid fire, from 8 Bolters, bolt pistol and a snap fire Heavy Bolter. Killed 3 of them, then next turn the last two charged my unit, once again my unit Rapid fired with BS 2, and the Flamer and Sgt Combi-Flamer unleashed as did the Heavy Bolter. GK's are dead. To quote this website....MOAR DAKKA.

I would never have tried that in 5th, but snap fire and getting to shoot them during the assault is awesome. Tactical Squads are alot more powerful than ever, and I am going to be running lists with 4 Tactical Squads from now on, the sheer number of Bolter shots is brilliant.

Terminators? meh, I'll take 10 x Sternguard with combi-flamers/melta's & Hellfire rounds please!

mcpothead wrote:As the previous poster said players are scared to charge a unit of shoota boyz out of fear off overwatch.

QFT

They can deliver a scary amount of firepower in overwatch.

Relapse wrote:

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Relapse wrote:Flamers,, meet terminators, terminators, meet having to fall back on 5+ armor save.

Take it you ma Invul., but in most cases Terminators will have a 3+, not a 5+.

In which case the flamers hang back at max range with pink horrors taking terminators out with volume of fire while heralds mutate any that survive, and screamers come in to clean up what's left.

Because your whole army exists in a vacumm with that single unit of Terminators who for some reason brought no army with them

mwnciboo wrote:To be honest, the new snap fire rules are great and the bane of Terminators. If you take the ork approach of just hurling enough shots at them, regardless of BS you will eventually take them down.

Last weeks game, I had my full tactical squad rock up in a Rhino, on a 5 man Grey Knights Terminator squad. Got out, riddled them with Rapid fire, from 8 Bolters, bolt pistol and a snap fire Heavy Bolter. Killed 3 of them, then next turn the last two charged my unit, once again my unit Rapid fired with BS 2, and the Flamer and Sgt Combi-Flamer unleashed as did the Heavy Bolter. GK's are dead. To quote this website....MOAR DAKKA.

I would never have tried that in 5th, but snap fire and getting to shoot them during the assault is awesome. Tactical Squads are alot more powerful than ever, and I am going to be running lists with 4 Tactical Squads from now on, the sheer number of Bolter shots is brilliant.

Terminators? meh, I'll take 10 x Sternguard with combi-flamers/melta's & Hellfire rounds please!

FYI snapfire is at BS1, so either you pushed the wrong button, or your using the wrong rules. So youd be hitting on a roll of 6, not 5+

Sry yeah my fault it was 6's, forgot it always adds upto 7. Yeah hitting on 6's = BS1, my error in typing, we did do the game properly only hitting on 6's.

I always killed terminators by volume of fire anyway.

First rule: If you can stop them from rolling do so. If you give them the chance to roll they can make anything(my friend made 3 6+s to save a unit that was holding the last objective with GTG in the open)
Second rule: if you cant stop them make them roll ALOT Eventually they will roll ones.

I think that the conclusion here is that they got a boost in 6th through changes in cover and PW Nerf.
Nothing more nothing less.

Well, again, its only a nerf to certain armies and units. As an Ork player, the terminator boost doesnt affect us at all. Our PK will still shred them and boyz/mass DAKKA will drop them like flies. So to other MEQ players and the like, sure they are tougher, to Ork players, nope, no difference

60 Shots = 20 Hits = 10 Wounds = 1.67 Dead Terminators

Cool, now add in the assault of those 30 shoota boyz. Im willing to bet the termies loose a few more of their own then the boyz do

...Ignore me

Well King Cracker, 30 shoota boyz on the charge (Assuming not a single boy dies and the terminators are all packing power fists, and without a nob with pk, just 30 boyz) will inflict 22.75 wounds on a terminator squad, and will inflict 3.75 wounds on the terminators. So in shooting and assault, you kill 5.42 terminators.

Note to all TH/SS terminator players - don't deep strike in front of 30 Orks.

Thumbs up for Exciting revelations!

A squad of 30 shoota boyz will also inflict 0.83 wounds during overwatch against terminators. In the ensuing assault phase they will inflict 2.5 wounds, meaning a squad of 30 shoota boyz will kill 3.33 terminators if charged by them.

Of course if your terminators are totting lightning claws, its a very different picture for the ladz, but anything I1 and you're sending your 200 point squad into 180 points of fearless death Without a nob with a pk, he will make sure you're terminator armour captain gets instant deathed.

I've never really used terminators because I have the stalwart beleif that tac squads can do anyting, so these changes don't really affect me.

Trying fielding 50 Tactical Marines against 8 Battle Cannons at 1500 points and see how many die in turn one Tactical Marines work well in conjunction with other units, on their own they are weak compared to their points equivalents.

Orkaswampa wrote:Trying fielding 50 Tactical Marines against 8 Battle Cannons at 1500 points and see how many die in turn one Tactical Marines work well in conjunction with other units, on their own they are weak compared to their points equivalents.

I use other units, im just saying I use tac marines in every single role (including ones where terminators shine)

In the few games I have played in 6th I have been finding Terminators tough but not unbeatable. I took my 15 model 1,500 point Loganwing out and the Logan/Arjac+5 took on almost 1,000 points of Khorne and actually did real well even with some bad rolls.

In another game my Dreadknight [still a TEQ] wracked up 9 VPs by him self and only took only 2 wounds vs. Nids. While the Paladins and GKT squads only did ok. But this was one of those my dice could not do no wrong games. I only failed two saves with my Dreadknight and one of them was a Turn -0- Spore Mine.

Orkaswampa wrote:Well King Cracker, 30 shoota boyz on the charge (Assuming not a single boy dies and the terminators are all packing power fists, and without a nob with pk, just 30 boyz) will inflict 22.75 wounds on a terminator squad, and will inflict 3.75 wounds on the terminators. So in shooting and assault, you kill 5.42 terminators.

Note to all TH/SS terminator players - don't deep strike in front of 30 Orks.

Thumbs up for Exciting revelations!

A squad of 30 shoota boyz will also inflict 0.83 wounds during overwatch against terminators. In the ensuing assault phase they will inflict 2.5 wounds, meaning a squad of 30 shoota boyz will kill 3.33 terminators if charged by them.

Of course if your terminators are totting lightning claws, its a very different picture for the ladz, but anything I1 and you're sending your 200 point squad into 180 points of fearless death Without a nob with a pk, he will make sure you're terminator armour captain gets instant deathed.

Yea, thats why I dont understand why people are so afraid of using full lightning claw termy squads. Depending on what they are fighting against, they can be incredibly brutal, specially when lead by a Chaplain in Terminator armor. Ouch.

Considering Plasma and other AP2 or AP1 weapons still dominate Tac terminators like they were grots behind a wall, I don't think much has changed for the vanilla tac squad. Other terminators that are customizable, or TH/SS, sure. But not the vanilla squad. Still too expensive for the way it drops to plasma.

I think if anything, 6th just makes plasma all the more needed in a SM list

KingCracker wrote:I think if anything, 6th just makes plasma all the more needed in a SM list

I always found plasma useful in SM lists. boltguns don't kill MEQ so well

There are arguably better lawnmowers out there. Like my new shiny death company wooo!

Jihallah wrote:

KingCracker wrote:I think if anything, 6th just makes plasma all the more needed in a SM list

I always found plasma useful in SM lists. boltguns don't kill MEQ so well

Agreed, its why I never understood why people would just bash plasmas or say "NO DONT TAKE THEM BECAUSE THEY GET HOT!!!!" And? Your a fething Space Marine, you shrug that gak off most times. To me the pros FAR outweigh the cons.

Well what do you think is worse, being attacked by a terminator squad, or being attacked by a terminator squad that just got shot at by 4 plasma shots? I think terminators are far more scary than a gets hot wound, people need a reality check!

Here is something to keep in mind about Termies vs Orks. A smart player is not going to let a full squad of orks march up and assault without doing damage.

Starting 24" apart, and the orks go first, after the first round of Close Combat there will be 6 orks left and 6 shootie termies provided nothing else shot at the other. Of course points are completely out of wack, but that is not the point of this thread.

If the marines goes first, the Orks don't make it into close combat, and only lose 2 termies.

Now, can we stop comparing units in a vaccum and with stupid tactics?

I have two squads of 10 terminators with 2 cyclones and 2 chainfists.

Combat squad, put both cyclones in the sergeant and hang back, let the melee squad with two chainfists walk forward. No character, no challenge lock, just 10-15 power fist attacks.

Orkaswampa wrote:Well what do you think is worse, being attacked by a terminator squad, or being attacked by a terminator squad that just got shot at by 4 plasma shots? I think terminators are far more scary than a gets hot wound, people need a reality check!

Yea nicely put. Thats why when I play a game with some SM, I always have the plasma out in force, just in case. Sgts have PP and squads have plasma rifles.

Can I say the mathhammering of terminators vs. ork boyz has large variance so doesn't give an accurate picture.
Then it is very unlikely situation anyway as being discussed.

Though the point is clear always take a few lightning claws as hitting last isn't fun.

I was just doing points for points But yes, id say 3 pairs of lightning claws and 2 TH/SS is suffice, for most situations.

Thunderhammer termies make me smile even more against Boyz. Yes, they are a seriously tough unit against most other units, but a mass of boyz, they die just the same.

KingCracker wrote:Thunderhammer termies make me smile even more against Boyz. Yes, they are a seriously tough unit against most other units, but a mass of boyz, they die just the same.

I agree. Even 5 Lighting Claws charging the Orks, LC kills 6, and the orks kills 2. Will it will take a few rounds, the orks will win out. That's why I think Shootie termies are the best choice now.

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I have two squads of 10 terminators with 2 cyclones and 2 chainfists.

Combat squad, put both cyclones in the sergeant and hang back, let the melee squad with two chainfists walk forward. No character, no challenge lock, just 10-15 power fist attacks.

That is a VERY dangerous tactic. You really should have the sargent in there against some armies. I know that with Nids if you don't have a speedbump even Terminators will die pretty badly. Its better to toss a sargent at the Swarmlord, a Tyrant, a Broodlord or a Prime then have them rip through your very expensive unit.

5 terminators are just some 1W guys with a 5+ save against someone who ignores armor and does not have a weapon that makes them strike at I1.

jbunny wrote:

KingCracker wrote:Thunderhammer termies make me smile even more against Boyz. Yes, they are a seriously tough unit against most other units, but a mass of boyz, they die just the same.

I agree. Even 5 Lighting Claws charging the Orks, LC kills 6, and the orks kills 2. Will it will take a few rounds, the orks will win out. That's why I think Shootie termies are the best choice now.

Hell, Ive thought shooty terminators were always underrated anyways. They can be very deadly with shooting.

I can't wait to see how deadly the new dark angels deathwing will be when their codex comes out, but i can guarantee the average number of plasma guns in a tournament will skyrocket lol

 Jihallah wrote:
Considering Plasma and other AP2 or AP1 weapons still dominate Tac terminators like they were grots behind a wall, I don't think much has changed for the vanilla tac squad. Other terminators that are customizable, or TH/SS, sure. But not the vanilla squad. Still too expensive for the way it drops to plasma.

I started playing tac termis from 6th and they have been pretty dominant, there just isn't as much ap2 ap1 shooting that you think there would be and it largely is anti tank and people are loath to waste it on a termi squad.

I feel like they are generally buffed (perhaps with the exception of GK Termies) due to various factors such as power weapon nerfs, deep strike, cover nerfs and general dominance towards shooting.


Power weapon nerf: Obviously our biggest Termie saver. No more Sarge with a sword chopping the 20pnt models.

Deep Strike: More viable than ever with the new Deep Strike rules. Unlike what many may think, Deep Striking Termies are actually useful in many cases.

Cover save nerf: Some may say, "But that's bad for Termies..." but think about it. That 2+ Armour save you paid for your dear points is going to do more than its job. Plus, nerf to cover save applies to EVERYONE.

General dominance of shooting: A controversial topic but... I feel like "Tactical Termies" are more useful than ever b4.

Terminators are slightly buffed in CC with Power Weapon changes, except when fighting Necrons.

Warscythes are not your friend. Avoid them as they will wreck those TH/SS Termies you thought were so awesome before you even get a chance to hit back.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Terminators are slightly buffed in CC with Power Weapon changes, except when fighting Necrons.

Warscythes are not your friend. Avoid them as they will wreck those TH/SS Termies you thought were so awesome before you even get a chance to hit back.

No, really, the entire point of TH/SS Terminators is the 3++. They're still the best anti-deathstar for their points in the game.

 KingCracker wrote:
Hell, Ive thought shooty terminators were always underrated anyways. They can be very deadly with shooting.

5 termies is 10 shots
6.6 hits
3.3 wounds?
200p?
3.3 wounds for 200p?

You forgot the Clyclone missile launcher.

I said 200p, not 230 (235? cant remember, cbf whipping out the codex)
2-3 hits per missile with a decent spread, so another 4-6 hits, 2-3 wounds+3.3 for a spanking 6.3?
hmmm
10 GH w/ 2 plasma and a rhino 195
(rapid fire)
18 bolter rounds 4 plasma shots
12 bolter hits 3 plasma hits on average
6 bolter wounds 2 probably 3 plasma wounds
(12.1"+)
10 bolter rounds 2 plasma shots
6.6 bolter hits 1.3 plasma hits on average
3.3 bolter wounds and 1.1 plasma wounds on average


Crudemathhammer I call it hmmmm over 12" they turn out a bit more bite. But the ability to deepstrike, powerfists, 2+5++ makes up for it in many ways...