the 11th Company will be live video broadcasting the top tables at the Nova Open starting next week Thursday roughly at 4PM Eastern time.

http://www.ustream.tv/user/the11thcompany

We will have the players wear wireless mics, so you can hear their discussions during their game. We will have between game interviews with various attendees and guests, and have the channel open for players wanting to broadcast their game live before and after the tournaments during open gaming. Please join us in the chat room while watching the broadcasts live Thursday August 30th - Sunday September 2nd, or catch the archived broadcasts after the event.

Sweet. This was fun last year, and my wife's probably going to be away this weekend hanging out with her best friend, so I am likely to be lazy and spend at least part of the weekend geeking out on the laptop.

FYI, as the 11th Company Boys will be busily playing their buns off, Jon P, one of our key staffers, will be manning the mic and keeping people updated often all weekend.

He'll pull in celebs for interviews (make requests), keep you up to date on top games as they're ongoing (and we'll be posting pairings up on novaopen.blogspot.com as well as round results), and doing his best to keep things interesting.

JP is our resident comedian, script-writer and director of the [in]famous NOVA video short (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PW9S2Ll1xJ8), and all around good guy.


Huge thanks always go out from us to the 11th Company Podcast - they're really one of the best out there, hands down, and their interview, podcasting, talking, editing, and general awesomeness skills are pretty much peerless. I don't mean to get all gushy, but it's the week of the NOVA after a year of ridiculously hard work making it what it's going to be ... and I'm all emotional

So MVB how are you going match-ups for the UStream table?

Last year there were some people who where not happy with the players that were on the top table for several rounds in the beginning of the tournament. Instead maybe you want to cherry pick who will be on the video stream for the first four rounds until you do the brackets for games 5+. I know if Stelek gets paired up with Ben Mohlie (for an example) that is a game I would want to watch.

hot hot hot

I agree with Blackmoor.

I don't know if you're already planning on doing this or not, but I would recommend interviewing the 2 players on table 1 before each game. Would be quite interesting.

Eh, that would be a near impossibility on day 2 more than anything with scheduling and time in between games. It pretty much takes about 30 minutes to get pairings up, find your name and move to whichever table you're going to.

Thanks for the feed 11th

This part is cool.

Nick / yermom is 4-0 about to play on top table w/ daemons.

Here are the armies in the top bracket. This is Round 6 so after this it will just be the top 4.

Top 8:
Space Wolves/IG
Necrons (Flyer Spam)
Sister/GK
Necrons/Orks
GK/Necrons
Necrons
Daemons
GK/Necrons

Guys in Bracket 1 Who Lost Round 5:
Space Wolves
GK/IG
Sisters of Battle
IG
GK/Space Wolves
IG/Orks
Eldar/Dark Eldar
Necrons

Wow. Njal took out like 4 scythes by himself in one phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sisters go 6-0! Go Jeremy!

Tony Kopach vs. Neil Gilstrap Round 6.

Looks like Tony won that game.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/25121572

Yup. He lost like 40+ models in Neil's T2 shooting phase, and kept slogging forward to get the win.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Yup. He lost like 40+ models in Neil's T2 shooting phase, and kept slogging forward to get the win.

Honestly, Tony just has too many units and models to kill. So far I haven't been able to think of a bad matchup for him. Combine that with how good of a player is, and well...

I only caught parts of it, but the Njal thing just floored me.

How did Njal take out the Necron flyers?

Chain lightning apparently allows no jink save...

The NOVA FAQ ruling is that the decision to Evade can only be made after rolling to hit, before rolling to penetrate. And that rolling to hit is a prerequisite for Evading.

Wouldn't be the ruling I'd make, but it certainly makes Njal even better.

I thought only snap shots or skyfire can be resolved versus flyers.

Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

So basically, he auto hits over half his air force, with d6 str 9 hits with no saves allowed. Yeah, that's fair...

Did any necron air force lists make it to the finals? Since they are the OMFG broken thing right now.

perrin23860 wrote:
Chain lightning apparently allows no jink save...

Vengeful Tornado as well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

perrin23860 wrote:
Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

So basically, he auto hits over half his air force, with d6 str 9 hits with no saves allowed. Yeah, that's fair...

STR 8 AP 5 is for chain lighting. D6 Attacks

perrin23860 wrote:
Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

So basically, he auto hits over half his air force, with d6 str 9 hits with no saves allowed. Yeah, that's fair...

Wait, we are feeling bad for the guy playin necron air force?

Wasn't Reecius quoted as saying it is the least fun list to play against in the game?

Ahh, thought it was str 9. Still, str 8 autohits with no saves to all flyers within range seems dumb to me...

It is no worse than d6 s8 against all chimera or razorbacks. Just makes flyers a bit more vulnerable. Personally, I probably would have wiped that blob out if I was worried about it.

There a big difference and just because you don't like it doesn't necessarily make it right either.

IIRC from the game---the chain lightning had zero affect on the outcome-as it happened at the very last, after quarters had already been decided.

Some very smart play by Tony moving up, taking the lumps of Tesla/Death Ray and playing the mission.

Yup. It didn't wind up being material to the outcome of this game anyway.

That's good to know.

 AgeOfEgos wrote:
IIRC from the game---the chain lightning had zero affect on the outcome-as it happened at the very last, after quarters had already been decided.

Some very smart play by Tony moving up, taking the lumps of Tesla/Death Ray and playing the mission.

That might be, but it was the Vengeful Tornado that IMHO did the strategic damage taking down that one key flyer earlier in the game. The flyer got no Jinks save as well.

But imagine a Foot slogging army doing damn well in the Nova Open. Not supposed to do well by all accounts. But this guy did his homework reading the rules and FAQ's for this event.

Regardless if he wins the whole thing or not. This guy is one class act. I hope he wins it all.

Foot Slogging and Flying are the two main ways to go right now in 6th. Flying gives you great mobility and often great firepower. Slogging allows you to buy a lot of bodies, which is more points in scoring & denial units, still with durability.

perrin23860 wrote:
Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

So basically, he auto hits over half his air force, with d6 str 9 hits with no saves allowed. Yeah, that's fair...

That's because Blood Lance is a PSA. Njal's abilities are not PSAs.

Njal's abilities are not shooting attacks, and do not roll to hit. They navigate two key requirements as a result: you cannot evade except after an opponent has "rolled to hit" against you. You DO get cover against those abilities if you have a cover save, but if you have not yet evaded, you cannot against these as they do not fulfill the prerequisite for evasion. Further, they are not shooting, so snap fire is not a relevant component of check.

Following our best attempt at strict raw on this. Reiteration, we did not say you could not jink vs them, only that you could not choose to evade because nothing rolled to hit you [read evade rules carefully).

Yeah, that's not the way I think most FAQs will go, but good to know it didn't really affect the outcome of that game.

Adam Longwalker wrote:But imagine a Foot slogging army doing damn well in the Nova Open. Not supposed to do well by all accounts. But this guy did his homework reading the rules and FAQ's for this event.

Regardless if he wins the whole thing or not. This guy is one class act. I hope he wins it all.

Yeah, cool to see him forging his own path, imo. I watched a bit of his round 5 and it looked like he and his opponent were having a fantastic time, too! He does have "home field advantage", though in that he'll have been preparing for this particular iteration of tourney play for some time. But it doesn't matter, the guy is a fantastic player.

----------------------------------------

Who are the others of the top 4? Did Nick / yermom win round 6 with Daemons to make it in? I'm hoping so

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but was Tony using a rolled for power, (endurance), and a space wolf book power, (storm caller, I believe, the 5+ cover save)? I was under the imression that if psykers rolled on the powers chart, they had to replace all of their powers.

Perhaps I am wrong though.

Of course. Endurance was on his allied IG Primaris psyker. The Primaris took Biomancy, and Njal kept his SW book powers.

Ahhh, thanks. I didn't know he had a primaris psyker.

Primaris makes an awesome ally hq.

Is that blob significantly worse without Endurance?

It's still good. The other money power for Tony in Bio is Enfeeble.

Seems risky to bank on rolling Endurance to keep that squad alive... though I suppose 50+ models aren't going to die easily regardless.

I don't see any new streams for the finals today. Also the streams' motion seems to be frozen. : (

And tony gets the three-peat.

Congrats to him and to Nick for an epic game!

My friend Jeremy (sisters) says his game against him was close and fun (game 7).

Did he win the Invitational or the Open?

Open. Last two rds of invitational are starting now.

He's playing Kurt Claussen on table 1 again. Alex Fennell and Neil Gilstrap are on the other table.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Open. Last two rds of invitational are starting now.

He's playing Kurt Claussen on table 1 again. Alex Fennell and Neil Gilstrap are on the other table.

It's almost like Tony's really good at 40K...


Interesting to see Daemons reach the top table of the Open, though. Thanks for the info.

Curious wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
Open. Last two rds of invitational are starting now.

He's playing Kurt Claussen on table 1 again. Alex Fennell and Neil Gilstrap are on the other table.

It's almost like Tony's really good at 40K...


Interesting to see Daemons reach the top table of the Open, though. Thanks for the info.

I'm not surprised. Daemons are really good now.

However, what is interesting is to see them battle back from behind in the statistically 2 games that they don't get their preferred wave in.

Anyone have any idea what the Daemons list contained? I saw Fateweaver, some Screamers and Plaguebearers and a single Daemon Prince but couldn't make out the rest.

HQ
fateweaver 333

Elites
6 Flamers of Tzeentch- pyrocaster 143
6 Flamers of Tzeentch- pyrocaster 143
6 Flamers of Tzeentch- pyrocaster 143

Troops
5 Plaguebearers- icon 100
5 Plahuebearers- icon 100
5 Plaguebearers 75
5 Plaguebearers 75

Fast Attack
5 Screamers of Tzeentch 125
5 Screamers of Tzeentch 125
5 Screamers of Tzeentch 125


Heavy Support
Demon Prince- Wings, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Breath of Chaos, Slanesh, Aura of Acquiesece, Soporific Musk 255
Demon Prince- Wings, Iron Hide, Unholy Might, Breath of Chaos, Slanesh, Aura of Acquiesece, Soporific Musk 255


1997

Man, so close for daemons!

So anyone have Tony's list info yet? I saw a rundown of it on the other Nova thread, but I plugged it all into army builder and it came out 100+ short I believe of 1750. I'd be greatly appreciative if someone would post his 1750 and 2k lists. Here I thought SW were dead in this edition.... lolz.

Living Still wrote:
So anyone have Tony's list info yet? I saw a rundown of it on the other Nova thread, but I plugged it all into army builder and it came out 100+ short I believe of 1750. I'd be greatly appreciative if someone would post his 1750 and 2k lists. Here I thought SW were dead in this edition.... lolz.

I've been running footslogging SW with great success since 6th released. Heck i just played a RTT last week with 68 powered armored GHs/LFs at 1850pts. Wasn't to hard to figure out the value. Now it will be just another net list. Time to switch up again!

 Byte wrote:

Living Still wrote:
So anyone have Tony's list info yet? I saw a rundown of it on the other Nova thread, but I plugged it all into army builder and it came out 100+ short I believe of 1750. I'd be greatly appreciative if someone would post his 1750 and 2k lists. Here I thought SW were dead in this edition.... lolz.

I've been running footslogging SW with great success since 6th released. Heck i just played a RTT last week with 68 powered armored GHs/LFs at 1850pts. Wasn't to hard to figure out the value. Now it will be just another net list. Time to switch up again!

Posted a few months ago that I was building a foot slogging SM army and was buying models before 6th ED was out. Foot slogging armies does work, but that is not the consensus on the interwebs.

Nercon Flyers was, MSU units is another. DeathStars is again another. Those were the core themes.

I only remember one web site that foretold what would happen to those Necrons who did the flying circus which to me is coming true in this tournament. Another site informed me on what to do with DeathStars as well.

You need manpower on the ground to take and old objectives and terrain. Period.

I'm glad that Tony is doing so well with his army.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Nercon Flyers was, MSU units is another. DeathStars is again another. Those were the core themes.

I only remember one web site that foretold what would happen to those Necrons who did the flying circus which to me is coming true in this tournament. Another site informed me on what to do with DeathStars as well.

You need manpower on the ground to take and old objectives and terrain. Period.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount necron flyers just yet. They may not be invincible, but they are IMHO by far the most difficult army to deal with currently, especially in a tournament environment. Why? Because if you gear your army more towards anti-flyer army, you'd be less efficient to battle other armies.

Tony is an exception because he's a 40K stud. Don't think for a sec that just because he was able to beat the scythe-crons that they are over-rated. They are the real deal. Period.


And BTW, when I am talking about scythe-crons, I don't really mean a pure-flyer necron army but more of a balanced hybrid necron list with both air support and a respectable ground presence.

perrin23860 wrote:
Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

Are they using a magic eight ball to make those sorts of calls?

Sounds like a great way to run a competative event...

 jy2 wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

Nercon Flyers was, MSU units is another. DeathStars is again another. Those were the core themes.

I only remember one web site that foretold what would happen to those Necrons who did the flying circus which to me is coming true in this tournament. Another site informed me on what to do with DeathStars as well.

You need manpower on the ground to take and old objectives and terrain. Period.

I wouldn't be so quick to discount necron flyers just yet. They may not be invincible, but they are IMHO by far the most difficult army to deal with currently, especially in a tournament environment. Why? Because if you gear your army more towards anti-flyer army, you'd be less efficient to battle other armies.

Tony is an exception because he's a 40K stud. Don't think for a sec that just because he was able to beat the scythe-crons that they are over-rated. They are the real deal. Period.


And BTW, when I am talking about scythe-crons, I don't really mean a pure-flyer necron army but more of a balanced hybrid necron list with both air support and a respectable ground presence.

Flyer lists were pretty bad. I knew of multiple armies that took heavy amounts of flyers and most of them lost very quickly. In fact, everyone that I spoke to about facing the flyer heavy lists beat them and generally with lists that were well balanced to beat both air and ground.

Vehicles cannot score quarters or contest so they essentially counted as dead in both Objectives and Quarters. This made them god-awful. If you could survive Necron strafing runs, you could easily capture the ground. I don't think 3 Wraith squads is enough presence either. Especially when you invest little in troops. I used a Doom Scythe and would probably stick with Annihilation Barges (what do most Infantry units really care if they take 4-5 hits, most of the time at NOVA you have cover). The Night Scythe is great but I think it is even better when it can deliver a unit with good durability into enemy lines, so something like 6-7 Immortals and a Cryptek.

MSU vehicle lists are not good in the NOVA format. I think having a ton of scoring units that are quite durable is all you really need. I won most of my games by small margins not losing many victory points but giving up even less. Ground lists can easily win the war of attrition. Flyers have limited mobility and if your footprint is large enough you can really restrict their shooting. If the game only goes 5 turns then the Flyers may only shoot you twice.

And the final results are in!

Mucho kudos to 11th co for another excellent show. Congrats to all involved.

Many congratulations to Tony, who won again, this time the Open and the Invitational.

 Mannahnin wrote:
And the final results are in!

Mucho kudos to 11th co for another excellent show. Congrats to all involved.

Many congratulations to Tony, who won again, this time the Open and the Invitational.

Sheesh! Fantastic job... he's a one-man wrecking ball!

Flyer lists were pretty bad. I knew of multiple armies that took heavy amounts of flyers and most of them lost very quickly. In fact, everyone that I spoke to about facing the flyer heavy lists beat them and generally with lists that were well balanced to beat both air and ground.

Vehicles cannot score quarters or contest so they essentially counted as dead in both Objectives and Quarters. This made them god-awful. If you could survive Necron strafing runs, you could easily capture the ground. I don't think 3 Wraith squads is enough presence either. Especially when you invest little in troops. I used a Doom Scythe and would probably stick with Annihilation Barges (what do most Infantry units really care if they take 4-5 hits, most of the time at NOVA you have cover). The Night Scythe is great but I think it is even better when it can deliver a unit with good durability into enemy lines, so something like 6-7 Immortals and a Cryptek.

MSU vehicle lists are not good in the NOVA format. I think having a ton of scoring units that are quite durable is all you really need. I won most of my games by small margins not losing many victory points but giving up even less. Ground lists can easily win the war of attrition. Flyers have limited mobility and if your footprint is large enough you can really restrict their shooting. If the game only goes 5 turns then the Flyers may only shoot you twice.

Yea This is happening in my region as well. The key word is Troops! Most people who have flyers take one or two flyers sometimes three but I hardly ever see four or more being played and the reason why is what you have just posted.







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 RiTides wrote:

 Mannahnin wrote:
And the final results are in!

Mucho kudos to 11th co for another excellent show. Congrats to all involved.

Many congratulations to Tony, who won again, this time the Open and the Invitational.

Sheesh! Fantastic job... he's a one-man wrecking ball!

What I like about him is that he is really a nice guy. The type of person that represents our hobby as the way it should be.

Yeah, like I said when I watched about 10 minutes of his round 5 game, he and his opponent looked like they were having a great time. I have to admit I was rooting against him as the "favored" side, though as I like to cheer for the underdog.

It was a pleasure to follow! Grats to Tony.

Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

Obviously it is time to start testing 40K players for doping!!!

I think its safe to say Stelek is clean...

Is there a place where we can view their lists? I heard one of the guys brought a 50 man guard blob and would like to see if he used only IG units in it, or did what everyone else does of sticking a tough allied IC in with them.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Is there a place where we can view their lists? I heard one of the guys brought a 50 man guard blob and would like to see if he used only IG units in it, or did what everyone else does of sticking a tough allied IC in with them.

If it's the list I think you're asking about, the 50 man blob included 5 sergeants with power axes, a Primaris Psyker (using Biomancy) and Njal Stormcaller, the Space Wolf Rune Priest special character.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Is there a place where we can view their lists? I heard one of the guys brought a 50 man guard blob and would like to see if he used only IG units in it, or did what everyone else does of sticking a tough allied IC in with them.

If it's the list I think you're asking about, the 50 man blob included 5 sergeants with power axes, a Primaris Psyker (using Biomancy) and Njal Stormcaller, the Space Wolf Rune Priest special character.

Dang, I really don't want to have to use an allied IC for the blobs. I was hoping to see him with some sort of IG character. Oh well.

 CT GAMER wrote:

perrin23860 wrote:
Apparently it was also ruled that his "autohits" for chain lightning can hit flyers, even though it isn't resolved as snapfire, and yet blood lance, which does the exact same thing, can't hit flyers. Weird. Wouldn't be the way I'd run it either.

Are they using a magic eight ball to make those sorts of calls?

Sounds like a great way to run a competative event...

 AresX8 wrote:
That's because Blood Lance is a PSA. Njal's abilities are not PSAs.

Makes sense to me. If they were both PSA's and ruled this way then you'd have a point, but it looks like a little more thought went into it than you're suggesting.

As for whether it's "fair" or not, ask GW, they're the ones who designed it that way. Unless you expect Mike and company to do a complete rules rewrite for their event all you can really do is work with what you're given.

 thehod wrote:
Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

I got started playing 40K and got the snot kicked out by a teen player (25 years ago). That got me thinking that there must be something to this game.

As far as the stigma, man there is far more important things in life than that. Like breathing, and making paper flowers, sniffing elmers glue and fun stuff like that.

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 thehod wrote:
Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

I got started playing 40K and got the snot kicked out by a teen player (25 years ago). That got me thinking that there must be something to this game.

As far as the stigma, man there is far more important things in life than that. Like breathing, and making paper flowers, sniffing elmers glue and fun stuff like that.

Huh?

 Byte wrote:

 Adam LongWalker wrote:

 thehod wrote:
Tony is not a bad guy it's just a stigma of people trying to justify why they lost to a teen.

I got started playing 40K and got the snot kicked out by a teen player (25 years ago). That got me thinking that there must be something to this game.

As far as the stigma, man there is far more important things in life than that. Like breathing, and making paper flowers, sniffing elmers glue and fun stuff like that.

Huh?

He's got a point you know. I mean, I don't know about you, but I love paper flowers.

It was great to watch The 11th Company's replays on UStream. Thanks a lot. It was funny to see Danny Kopach not have a Grey Knight Codex while playing Grey Knights. Watching the video, In the final game, it appeared Tony Kopatch took dead models and created a new 5 many Grey Hunters squad. Around 54 minutes into the video, he was deploying his reserves and had two piles of Grey Hunters, 5 man and 10 man squads. He deployed the 10 man squad in the center, but left 2 of the 10 models on his left. Then he deployed the 5 man squad on his left and then moved them into the center (looks like into difficult terrain with out rolling). He still forgot to deploy the two models back on his left. Then around 1:26, he said 5 Grey Hunters were knocked down and used the 2 left over models and took 3 casualties to form a new 5 man squad on his left flank. Their point value probably effected his opponent from contesting that quadrant and objective as it was very tight. He also added a model to a unit on the back left flank stating that unit had not taken any casualties. Personally, I believe both were honest mistakes, but I think casualties need to be removed from the table and adding models back on to the table really shouldn't be done.

I too would like to thank the 11th company for putting on yet another great effort in the new world of streaming 40k. They're narration was good, and only a couple hiccups that I noticed, technically speaking wise. The screen shifter to the left a couple times, truncating the table a bit, and there was a white noise issue or two also, at least on my lines. Not sure if this was what everyone noticed... All in all though its a great setup.

Being unable to attend due to the weekday requirements and work this year, it was certainly nice to be able to watch a bit in my free time. I was hoping to come as I had a truly fun time last year.

Congrats to all those involved in making yet another highly enjoyable event happen, particularly Mike Brandt. I'd simply like to say that even though I don't know him very well, he comes across as one of the most genuine guys and not just to me. I can't even imagine the work/dedication that goes into an event that big, and the awesome support he must have. Truly cool.

Also, just because I stated earlier in this thread that I don't see some rulings the same way as NOVA, doesn't mean that I have any less respect for the effort that goes into the event, as well as the opinions/interpretations of said rulings.

Congrats to Tony, (doubt he knows who I am, only spoken to him once in passing), on an impressive streak, no matter how you look at it.

I think my favorite game I watched personally was Alex Fennel vs Zack Propps. Both fellows were very good sports, and I like how Alex does a great job being open and helpful even to his opponent. You don't see that kind of regular good performances at multiple high level GT's, with such great sportsmanship and spotless reputation. I hope I have the priveledge to play him one day.

Alex Fennell is a pretty awesome guy to play against.

Congrats to Tony! He is a good kid and hope to see him at a Wargames con. Love the 50 man blob. Big fat units of hard to get rid of troops is the key to a lot of 6th edition games. Plus when you charge, you get shot by a ton of flashlights and feel like a star haha.

 Mannahnin wrote:
The NOVA FAQ ruling is that the decision to Evade can only be made after rolling to hit, before rolling to penetrate. And that rolling to hit is a prerequisite for Evading.

Wouldn't be the ruling I'd make, but it certainly makes Njal even better.

The SW FAQ states no cover save from NJal's vengeful tornado as it is not a shooting attack and jink is a cover save

So not only the NOVA FAQ was involved

Good catch! That does seem a pretty clear precedent, for the next result on the same table. Strange that CL isn't also mentioned in that question, but still. Looks legit to me.

 Mannahnin wrote:
Good catch! That does seem a pretty clear precedent, for the next result on the same table. Strange that CL isn't also mentioned in that question, but still. Looks legit to me.

it is strange given their similarity

From the old INAT

SW.53G.05 – Q: Is ‘Chain Lightning’ a shooting
attack? Does it occur before or after Morale Checks
are taken at the end of the shooting phase?
A: It is treated exactly as a regular shooting attack except
that it hits automatically and can affect multiple enemy
units. Resolve these attacks before taking any Morale
Checks at the end of the phase [clarification].

Granted, that was 5th edition though. Ahhh the vagary of a new edition...

So basically, what used to be an ability that allowed cover to whatever could claim it, on a 4+, back in those days, now allows no save whatsoever...

Bear in mind that NOVA doesn't use INAT. And of course, the edition has changed, so we're going to have to completely revamp INAT.

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not sore here. Just because I talk about these things doesn't mean that. Just making points here in my own little corner of the internet. I still have deep respect for any T.O., including Mike Brandt. If it weren't for guys like him, guys like me would be gak outta luck. He had a tough row to hoe this year too with a new edition, and from all accounts, people seemed to have had a great time, which I was hoping to experience as well, but was unable to go due to the friday start this year...

I think njals special powers are best treated as an special type attack in and of themselves. Sort of the way sweep attacks are done
the sw faq hints at that with its not quite a shooting or cc


I can see why inat house ruled it that way in 5th as its simple
Also flyers don't really need special
protection
from power that is random and only available 4th turn onwards with 12 " range

that's lots of turns to kill him and if you dont just stay out of range
i just think njals special powers caught people off guard again like every nova i have watched

Jesus just pack a GK Stormraven and mind strike missile Njal off the board. That way there is no gnashing of teeth over rules afterwards.

Just for clarity, we did not rule on Njal's powers in the NOVA FAQ.

We ruled them on the spot when asked in the following way:

Appropriate Rules of Reference:

Codex: Space Wolves, Page 53, Lord of Tempests Game Effect Table:

6 - Vengeful Tornado:
At the end of Njal's Shooting Phase, a model within 18" is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour.

7+ - Chain Lightning:
At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5.

First component, neither of these are Shooting Attacks. They also do not Roll to Hit. They roll to determine whether they occur at all at the beginning of the turn, and they roll to determine how many hits occur. They do not Roll to Hit.

Next, the rules for Evade, on Page 81 of the large rulebook:

If a Zooming Flyer comes under fire, the pilot can throw his craft into a series of evasive manoeuvres in an attempt to avoid taking damage. After the enemy has rolled To Hit against one of your Flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots.

Note that Njal's powers in question are not shooting attacks, and do not roll to hit. The choice to Evade can ONLY be made after the enemy has rolled To Hit.

The NOVA DID NOT RULE that there were no COVER saves permitted against Vengeful Tornado or Chain Lightning. In fact, we ruled you COULD take cover saves. We simply ruled that the choice to Evade could not be made against either of them, because they were not shooting attacks and did not roll to hit. In the case of affected units in area terrain, units that had already evaded, units with the Jink rule, units with KFF effects, smoke, etc., cover saves all applied, because the cover save was already in effect when the hits were suffered.

Just so all know ... we did not rule "NO COVER SAVES," and we did not consider these at all similar to Blood Lance, etc., because ... well, they aren't at all similar. A non-shooting-attack special effect is not at all the same as a shooting attack or psychic shooting attack.

Thanks for the lucid explanation. Very insightful.

Seems rather powerful though, perhaps I'm alone in thinking this way though.

Is there anything else that autohits flyers in the game that allows now save? Heck, even just autohits flyers?

Good enough for me, MVB. Really bummed I wasn't able to make it out this year, perhaps next time!

perrin23860 wrote:
Thanks for the lucid explanation. Very insightful.

Seems rather powerful though, perhaps I'm alone in thinking this way though.

Is there anything else that autohits flyers in the game that allows now save? Heck, even just autohits flyers?

It sounds like Imotekh's lightning would also be able to autohit flyers if you roll that 6. Then again, is the random rolling of 6 actually a To-Hit roll, or is it not? Off to YMDC!

Probably a moot point since nobody takes Imotekh in this edition anyway

Immotek hit his allied ork flyer in one of my games with his lightning....Just saying

 Hulksmash wrote:
Immotek hit his allied ork flyer in one of my games with his lightning....Just saying

Hey Hulksmash,

This is kinda off on a tangent, but I was wondering how you think you would have done had you gotten the chance to play against Nick's daemons? I think that may be a bad matchup for him.

@Jy2

Since it's Nick it would have depended on a ton of variables. Which wave he got, if he went first, if I perilled (more like when and with what), which psychic powers I got, mission parameters.

Basically I list has a chance to be a hugely bad match-up but only if everything kinda broke my way. Otherwise it would have been a heck of a game. I'd say any game between us is a 50/50 pretty much no matter what we're running.

Aww dont be modest Brad...We all know you would have tabled poor little Nick

Also to match another name.
Kurt Clauss is Clauss on Dakka...Shocker..

I like the coverage! I look forward to hearing the 11th companies podcast review of the event. I don't get to go to major tournies like these for a myriad number of reasons and It's fun to get an "inside view" of their goings on.

Clauss and KGatch- kind of transparent nicknames there

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Jy2

Since it's Nick it would have depended on a ton of variables. Which wave he got, if he went first, if I perilled (more like when and with what), which psychic powers I got, mission parameters.

Basically I list has a chance to be a hugely bad match-up but only if everything kinda broke my way. Otherwise it would have been a heck of a game. I'd say any game between us is a 50/50 pretty much no matter what we're running.

Yeah, I guess so. Your shooting has the potential to really hurt him, however, the amount of LOS-blocking terrain means that he could have probably landed safely and get some protection from the majority of your shooting.

But what you have to your advantage is Preferred Enemy. That is just a huge boon against daemons, especially when combined with as much dice as your army can put out.

The mike just wondering why did you over rule the sw 6th ed faq saying no cover saves for vengeful tornado or was itjust missed at the time and therefore not taken into account

MVBrandt wrote:
Just for clarity, we did not rule on Njal's powers in the NOVA FAQ.

We ruled them on the spot when asked in the following way:

Appropriate Rules of Reference:

Codex: Space Wolves, Page 53, Lord of Tempests Game Effect Table:

6 - Vengeful Tornado:
At the end of Njal's Shooting Phase, a model within 18" is ravaged by a tornado, taking D3 S9 hits. Vehicles are hit on their side armour.

7+ - Chain Lightning:
At the end of Njal's Shooting phase, unengaged enemy units within 12" of Njal take D6 S8 hits with an AP of 5.

First component, neither of these are Shooting Attacks. They also do not Roll to Hit. They roll to determine whether they occur at all at the beginning of the turn, and they roll to determine how many hits occur. They do not Roll to Hit.

Next, the rules for Evade, on Page 81 of the large rulebook:

If a Zooming Flyer comes under fire, the pilot can throw his craft into a series of evasive manoeuvres in an attempt to avoid taking damage. After the enemy has rolled To Hit against one of your Flyers, but before armour penetration rolls are made, you can choose to Evade until the end of your next turn. An evading Flyer has the Jink special rule, but only fires Snap Shots.

Note that Njal's powers in question are not shooting attacks, and do not roll to hit. The choice to Evade can ONLY be made after the enemy has rolled To Hit.

The NOVA DID NOT RULE that there were no COVER saves permitted against Vengeful Tornado or Chain Lightning. In fact, we ruled you COULD take cover saves. We simply ruled that the choice to Evade could not be made against either of them, because they were not shooting attacks and did not roll to hit. In the case of affected units in area terrain, units that had already evaded, units with the Jink rule, units with KFF effects, smoke, etc., cover saves all applied, because the cover save was already in effect when the hits were suffered.

Just so all know ... we did not rule "NO COVER SAVES," and we did not consider these at all similar to Blood Lance, etc., because ... well, they aren't at all similar. A non-shooting-attack special effect is not at all the same as a shooting attack or psychic shooting attack.

No particularly good reason ... we should have ruled no cover save at all for Tornadoes

Fortunately it didn't come up / wasn't an issue in that no vehicles had cover saves and took them when they otherwise shouldn't have. If it did later, it only hurt Tony, who didn't lose any games, and so apparently didn't suffer for the mis-rule on the subsidiary element.