I tried to look it up but was rather unsuccessful. It vexes me that there is no lore for em, what they just magic'd into existance?

A custom psychic/warrior race created to serve as proxy warriors by and for the Old Ones. In the oldcron codex, there was a connection with the Humans, but the newcron codex completely removes this connection.

Genetically engineered by the Old Ones to battle the Necrontyr, along with the Krorks, and some other races.

At least that was the lore prior to the current Cron book. I have no clue what if any changes in that book may have impacted decades of established fluff.

I've heard some speculation that they might have reptilian ties?

It is still canon that the Eldar were sired by the Old Ones. As to their home planet and history before becoming a sadistic galaxy-spanning empire, GW doesn't feel that's particularly important. And indeed, for all intensive purposes it really isn't that relevant for the 41st Millennia, the fall, and so on.

The Eldar original homeworld (and core worlds), and the centre of their empire was situated where the Eye of Terror now resides (in fact, they were the cause of it when Slaanesh was born). there are references (not that i can remember where from) that talk of their worlds trapped within the Eye...

Before the Oldcron codex, I believe, the Eldar weren't created by the Old Ones, but rather evolved much as humans did except that they did so long before humans ever evolved.

The Eldar WERE CREATED by the old ones. Established 20+ year fluff. (There is canon, there is no canon. Pick and choose what you like. I choose to ignore anything that retcons older stuff. It means I don't go into rages over anything Mat Ward writes).

They were made as "perfect" as they could be done - a naturally gifted psychic race. Perfect in their arrogance. They were a weapon against the necrontry - like the krork (who were designed as the perfect warrior unclouded by reason).

This is one of the reasons that the Eldar look down on humans. The eldar were made the way they are - humanity evolved through random chance and changes. The eldar ruled the galaxy whilst human ancestors still swung through trees.

And it's fluff, not lore. Lore grants it a relevance and "gravitas" that it neither deserves nor needs.

 chromedog wrote:


This is one of the reasons that the Eldar look down on humans. The eldar were made the way they are - humanity evolved through random chance and changes. The eldar ruled the galaxy whilst human ancestors still swung through trees.

That actually makes Humans, Tau, and Necrons more deserving of the galaxy than the Eldar or the Orks - they ascended to the stars by their own achievements as opposed to getting it as a gift from a failed elder race.

Im not sure but the old ones could have found the very early primitive eldar and very extensively modified them to be the arrogant psyker race that they are.

Was there some evidence that humans were at one point at least experimented on by either the necrontyr or old ones, due to the pariah gene (although rare) being present in the human gene pool?

The old ones were involved with eldar origins is some manner. The Old Ones flew around the galaxy creating, modifying, and nurturing life. What isn’t quite clear is whether they just created a bunch of eldar, or helped an existing species along. IIRC from oldcron fluff, when the war in heaven came along, eldar were modified to defend themselves and fight back as were a bunch of other species like the kork - they were not originally (designed / guided) with the purpose of being weapons in mind. The extent of the war modification was the unlocking of their psychic potential - this is the only thing I recall that was explicitly stated as an Old One modification upon the eldar. The level of Old One intervention (or outright creation) on the eldar prior to this is likely open to speculation.

I think, that I remember reading somewhere (2nd fluff or older) about pre-eldar being tree dwelling, feline-like creatures. The MO of the old ones is to modify life, not build from scratch in most cases (oldcron fluff, warhammer fantasy). Humans are said to be also effected by their interventions (xenology) - IIRC that was one of the reason eldar didn’t just exterminate the humans when they began flooding the galaxy - they thought there was a point to the human race’s existence (don’t recall source). One thing about the eldar is that they are no longer biologically evolving (xenology) - a million old eldar fossil was genetically indiscernible from current eldar.

 vodo40k wrote:


Was there some evidence that humans were at one point at least experimented on by either the necrontyr or old ones, due to the pariah gene (although rare) being present in the human gene pool?

Not anymore...all references to a Human connection to either the Old Ones or the C'tan are gone.

 Grunt13 wrote:


I think, that I remember reading somewhere (2nd fluff or older) about pre-eldar being tree dwelling, feline-like creatures.

And we get looked down on for being descended from tree dwelling, ape-like creatures? Talk about hypocrites...looks like we aren't so different after all...

Xenology and Warhammer Fantasy has the humans as products of Old Ones intervention. Xenology implied that the old ones had a fondness for the humanoid form in general, suggesting that orks, eldar, tau, hurd, humans, and basically any humanoid in 40K is their handiwork. In Xenology there was a broken, ancient, eldar tablet displaying some races matured or planned by the old ones; the broken piece was shown later to display humans.

Eldar’s view of self-superiority when compared to humans is quite justified. Humans are fairly close to orks in their conduct when compared to the eldar from their perspective (pointless wars, overbreeding, destroying worlds with pollution, making a mess of the galaxy in general, feeding chaos). Plus eldar were the favored child of the old ones, they are the Old Ones natural heirs. Humanity must come across to the eldar like a Three Stooges movie taking place in a nuclear missile silo - and that’s when the imperium is at its most benign.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Xenology and Warhammer Fantasy has the humans as products of Old Ones intervention. Xenology implied that the old ones had a fondness for the humanoid form in general, suggesting that orks, eldar, tau, hurd, humans, and basically any humanoid in 40K is their handiwork. In Xenology there was a broken, ancient, eldar tablet displaying some races matured or planned by the old ones; the broken piece was shown later to display humans.

Xenology is still valid, I think...but the connection between Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 was supposed to have been gone since 3rd Edition AFAIK.

Eldar’s view of self-superiority when compared to humans is quite justified. Humans are fairly close to orks in their conduct when compared to the eldar from their perspective (pointless wars, overbreeding, destroying worlds with pollution, making a mess of the galaxy in general, feeding chaos).

Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

Plus eldar were the favored child of the old ones, they are the Old Ones natural heirs. Humanity must come across to the eldar like a Three Stooges movie taking place in a nuclear missile silo - and that’s when the imperium is at its most benign.

That just makes the Eldar look like spoiled brats - compared to everyone else, and especially the Humans, Tau, and Necrons, they got everything relatively easily and without actually working for it. Humans, Tau, and Necrons had to work their way up to where they are now.

 Tadashi wrote:
Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

The Craftworld and Exodite Eldar had absolutely nothing to do with that incident, in fact the opposite (Craftworld Eldar tried to prevent it). So that example doesn't really hold water. As well, while The Fall was catastrophic for the Eldar, it wasn't nearly as damaging as the Human-led Great Crusade was. During the Great Crusade, the Imperium literally made every Xenos race it found extinct, except for the ones who could get away (Eldar), or those who were non-sentient enough to be considered not a threat and ignored. No other humanoid race has had a more hostile and cancerous influence on the Galaxy than Humanity.

That just makes the Eldar look like spoiled brats - compared to everyone else, and especially the Humans, Tau, and Necrons, they got everything relatively easily and without actually working for it. Humans, Tau, and Necrons had to work their way up to where they are now.

Humanity got its technology from the Void Dragon and the Necrons got their best stuff from the C'Tan.

Anyway, it's entirely obvious that Eldar are superior to Humanity in everything but numbers. Sans a few exceptions such as the Emperor and Magnus, Eldar are stronger Psykers. They don't require gene-enhancements and bionics to have Space Marine level physical characteristics. Eldar society is significantly more advanced than the Imperium, with every Eldar having all the material possessions they could ever want they don't even use currency, and they can do whatever they want with their lives at any time. They never attack other factions out of spite or a desire to conquer, fighting only if threatened, or to prevent a foreseen disaster, and have absolutely no problem with letting other factions handle their own business so long as that business doesn't result in harm to Eldar lives. It's hard to find a less malevolent faction in a universe filled with malevolent factions.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

The Craftworld and Exodite Eldar had absolutely nothing to do with that incident, in fact the opposite (Craftworld Eldar tried to prevent it). So that example doesn't really hold water. As well, while The Fall was catastrophic for the Eldar, it wasn't nearly as damaging as the Human-led Great Crusade was. During the Great Crusade, the Imperium literally made every Xenos race it found extinct, except for the ones who could get away (Eldar), or those who were non-sentient enough to be considered not a threat and ignored. No other humanoid race has had a more hostile and cancerous influence on the Galaxy than Humanity.

First of all, the Craftworld Eldar did nothing to prevent the Fall - they and the Exodites ran away, which was the only reason they survived in the first place. Second, the Fall also partly caused the Great Crusade - the Warp Storms that heralded the Fall, along with the rebellion of the Men of Iron and increasing numbers of Human psykers brought about the Old Night. Furthermore, during the millennia of the Old Night, Humans were largely oppressed and taken advantage of by aliens - around five thousand years of alien oppression, do you really think the Humans would forgive that? That logic is stupid and unworkable - obviously the first thing that a united Human race would do is to seek revenge and ensure that they would never go under the thumb of aliens ever again.

That just makes the Eldar look like spoiled brats - compared to everyone else, and especially the Humans, Tau, and Necrons, they got everything relatively easily and without actually working for it. Humans, Tau, and Necrons had to work their way up to where they are now.

Humanity got its technology from the Void Dragon and the Necrons got their best stuff from the C'Tan.

Only partly correct - while the Void Dragon did influence the Golden Age of Technology Humans and the early Mechanicum, it never actually taught them how to build things or gave them something willingly; in stark contrast, the Eldar were personally taught by their 'gods' and were given gifts by the Old Ones.

Anyway, it's entirely obvious that Eldar are superior to Humanity in everything but numbers. Sans a few exceptions such as the Emperor and Magnus, Eldar are stronger Psykers. They don't require gene-enhancements and bionics to have Space Marine level physical characteristics. Eldar society is significantly more advanced than the Imperium, with every Eldar having all the material possessions they could ever want they don't even use currency, and they can do whatever they want with their lives at any time. They never attack other factions out of spite or a desire to conquer, fighting only if threatened, or to prevent a foreseen disaster, and have absolutely no problem with letting other factions handle their own business so long as that business doesn't result in harm to Eldar lives. It's hard to find a less malevolent faction in a universe filled with malevolent factions.

Which further proves my point - since Humans have to go so far to reach their current level (and even further to reach the peak of their power), it makes them more deserving of the galaxy as opposed to someone who was given everything (and squandered it away just because they were bored and had nothing better to do).

 Tadashi wrote:
First of all, the Craftworld Eldar did nothing to prevent the Fall - they and the Exodites ran away, which was the only reason they survived in the first place.

Incorrect. It's noted that the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar fled only because they were persecuted by their kin and foresaw that there was no way to prevent The Fall from happening- or have you forgotten that Eldar possess the ability to foresee things?

Second, the Fall also partly caused the Great Crusade - the Warp Storms that heralded the Fall, along with the rebellion of the Men of Iron and increasing numbers of Human psykers brought about the Old Night.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
First of all, the Craftworld Eldar did nothing to prevent the Fall - they and the Exodites ran away, which was the only reason they survived in the first place.

Incorrect. It's noted that the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar fled only because they were persecuted by their kin and foresaw that there was no way to prevent The Fall from happening- or have you forgotten that Eldar possess the ability to foresee things?

So they foresaw it...but they still ran away. In other words, they gave in to fate rather than fight it, which is what a Human would have done. Cowards...to cry out against fate and to fight it to create a destiny of your own design is true strength.

Second, the Fall also partly caused the Great Crusade - the Warp Storms that heralded the Fall, along with the rebellion of the Men of Iron and increasing numbers of Human psykers brought about the Old Night.

No, the Fall enabled the Crusade- it didn't cause it. There's a huge difference between those two notions.

Doesn't change the fact one of the three reasons why the Golden Age of Technology ended was because of the Warp Storms the decadent Eldar were causing.

Furthermore, during the millennia of the Old Night, Humans were largely oppressed and taken advantage of by aliens

The same article that states that Humans were enslaved by xenos also states that many of the human worlds had also formed peace treaties and alliances with them, so that goes out the window. Humanity wasn't treated any differently from any of the other factions within the Galaxy. However, no other faction besides Humans have made it a point to butcher every single alien they come into contact with regardless of how threatening they are, besides maybe the Orks. Humanity has taken more life than any other group in the Galaxy by far.

Still doesn't justify forgiveness by the Human race as a whole, whose re-united state wisely chose to ensure never to let it happen again, no matter the cost.

Only partly correct - while the Void Dragon did influence the Golden Age of Technology Humans and the early Mechanicum, it never actually taught them how to build things or gave them something willingly; in stark contrast, the Eldar were personally taught by their 'gods' and were given gifts by the Old Ones.

It's stated numerous times that the Eldar were inventors, off the top of my head the 4E Codex states that they invented and designed their plasma weapons, which are far superior to the Imperiums.

So no.

Yes...because everything they have was only possible because the knowledge and ability was willingly given to them by some elder race. Anything the Humans got from another race had to obtained at great cost. Even if flawed, at least Imperial/Human designs are original in the sense they weren't made utilizing 'gifts' from others - even the knowledge of the Void Dragon had to be coerced passively. Furthermore, Imperial technology is not at its height - I imagine Golden Age of Technology-era Human plasma weapons are on par if not superior to Eldar plasma weapons.

Which further proves my point - since Humans have to go so far to reach their current level (and even further to reach the peak of their power), it makes them more deserving of the galaxy as opposed to someone who was given everything (and squandered it away just because they were bored and had nothing better to do).

It doesn't, because the Imperium can't even take care of itself. It's ridiculously corrupt, it's Xenocidal tendencies have gotten it in more trouble than out of trouble, and it slaughters its own people and oppresses them so hard that while every Imperial planet should be a paradise planet like the Eldars' were pre-Fall and their technology should be the best in the Galaxy's, they're instead hell-holes and Imperium tech is back-sliding at an astounding rate. If the Imperium can't keep its own empire together, what right do they have to the Galaxy?

 Tadashi wrote:
.to cry out against fate and to fight it to create a destiny of your own design is true strength.

You mean like how Horus did?

Doesn't change the fact one of the three reasons why the Golden Age of Technology ended was because of the Warp Storms the decadent Eldar were causing.

And that's a non-sequitier that has nothing to do with the Imperium choosing to start a Great Crusade which resulted in the extinction of 90% of the Galaxy's sentient life forms, earning the Imperium the title King of the Douchebags.

Still doesn't justify forgiveness by the Human race as a whole, whose re-united state wisely chose to ensure never to let it happen again, no matter the cost.

Except this discussion isn't about "forgiveness", it's about "is Humanity a scumbag race compared to the Eldar because they butcher everything in sight", to which the answer is ultimately yes. The Eldar have learned from experience that being indiscriminate psychopathic mass murderers only hinders one's goals- Humanity has not.

Yes...because everything they have was only possible because the knowledge and ability was willingly given to them by some elder race.

Prove it. The Old Ones gave them some technology, but their greatest gift to them were brilliant minds. By your logic Einstein isn't a genius because school "gave him" a foundation on which to build his theories and inventions atop of.

1) Everyone in the galaxy is out to get them, and yet the Imperium still endures.
2) The only species (apart from the Orks) who has the innate strength to fight fate and forge its own destiny.

These are both non-sequitiers.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
.to cry out against fate and to fight it to create a destiny of your own design is true strength.

You mean like how Horus did?

The whole point behind the Imperium's existence is to ensure Mankind's dominion regardless of whatever fate - unfortunately governed by Tzeentch - throws at it.

Doesn't change the fact one of the three reasons why the Golden Age of Technology ended was because of the Warp Storms the decadent Eldar were causing.

And that's a non-sequitier that has nothing to do with the Imperium choosing to start a Great Crusade which resulted in the extinction of 90% of the Galaxy's sentient life forms, earning the Imperium the title King of the Douchebags.

UNCARING. Ends justify the means.

Still doesn't justify forgiveness by the Human race as a whole, whose re-united state wisely chose to ensure never to let it happen again, no matter the cost.

Except this discussion isn't about "forgiveness", it's about "is Humanity a scumbag race compared to the Eldar because they butcher everything in sight", to which the answer is ultimately yes. The Eldar have learned from experience that being indiscriminate psychopathic mass murderers only hinders one's goals- Humanity has not.

We have nothing to learn from a failed race who runs from its nature or revels in it - we take what we need and Warp take the rest.

Eldar are just as bad as humanity...
They care for themselves only. The only reason they ever help others is to preserve themselves without doing any fighting...
The Eldar would gladly see humanity die if it meant the survival of their own race for a bit longer...

 Tadashi wrote:


Xenology is still valid, I think...but the connection between Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 was supposed to have been gone since 3rd Edition AFAIK.

Eldar’s view of self-superiority when compared to humans is quite justified. Humans are fairly close to orks in their conduct when compared to the eldar from their perspective (pointless wars, overbreeding, destroying worlds with pollution, making a mess of the galaxy in general, feeding chaos).

Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread, however, I had to comment on this one part right here...

While the Eldar may have caused the birth of Slaanesh, and that may have taken several hundred million years for their race to decay into such a state as to cause this massive implosion of space and time... Answer me this, how young is the human race in comparison? And how many chaos gods have they spawned? Oh, and they did it before Slaanesh was born? Seems like a bit of a petty argument, especially since the Eldar are at least actively trying to make up for their mistake (Methods depend on the variety of Eldar ofc) where as humanity is still doing what they always do.

 purplefood wrote:
Eldar are just as bad as humanity...
They care for themselves only. The only reason they ever help others is to preserve themselves without doing any fighting...
The Eldar would gladly see humanity die if it meant the survival of their own race for a bit longer...

Simply put: they have no right to judge us.

Humanity doesn't really have a choice...
In order to survive their entire society needs to be keyed to war and war production.
With the arrival of the Tyranids for instance war production and mobilisation of troops in Segmentum Ultima needs to be increased by 500% at a minimum...
If humanity had a leader with both the authority, the power and the wisdom (Basically the Emperor) to reorganise, and regroup its military forces and its society then they could make progress.

 Amanax wrote:

Answer me this, how young is the human race in comparison? And how many chaos gods have they spawned? Oh, and they did it before Slaanesh was born? Seems like a bit of a petty argument, especially since the Eldar are at least actively trying to make up for their mistake (Methods depend on the variety of Eldar ofc) where as humanity is still doing what they always do.

Three to be precise...Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle. Which speaks for itself regarding the powerful potential the Humans have if they succeed in taming themselves (which might happen, but won't, since GW is never going to move the story forward). And TBH, I would sooner see the galaxy in the hands of the Powers, than in the hands of the Eldar.

Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

 purplefood wrote:
Humanity doesn't really have a choice...
In order to survive their entire society needs to be keyed to war and war production.
With the arrival of the Tyranids for instance war production and mobilisation of troops in Segmentum Ultima needs to be increased by 500% at a minimum...
If humanity had a leader with both the authority, the power and the wisdom (Basically the Emperor) to reorganise, and regroup its military forces and its society then they could make progress.

He's currently indisposed...please leave a message after the beep...

 purplefood wrote:
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

Their roots go back to the War in Heaven, but they only 'awakened' after feeding off the darkness pouring out of Mankind's collective psyche.

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

Theie roots go back to the War in Heaven, but they only 'awakened' after feeding off the darkness pouring out of Mankind's collective psyche.

That requires psychically potent individuals on a large scale. Humanity would do it but not in the numbers they are in at the time.
Likely there were plenty of other races that could fulfill the requirements or even multiple species that managed to bring them into sentience...

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

Theie roots go back to the War in Heaven, but they only 'awakened' after feeding off the darkness pouring out of Mankind's collective psyche.

That requires psychically potent individuals on a large scale. Humanity would do it but not in the numbers they are in at the time.
Likely there were plenty of other races that could fulfill the requirements or even multiple species that managed to bring them into sentience...

Also possible...but that would not fit with the fluff from the Realms of Chaos books, but who am I kidding? This is GW after all....

Perhaps Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle only achieved their current 'form' once Mankind achieved dominance and its unstable and slowly accelerating psychic evolution 'shaped' the Powers into their current 'form'.

From what I read about it, the Fall and birth of Slaanesh was predestined, nothing the eldar could have done would have prevented it - the necrons even predicted it 60 million years ago. Also the galactic wide warp storms were not due to eldar behavior but a natural/daemonic phenomena (IIRC). The fall cleared the storms away giving relatively safe warp travel to the other races. Humanity is the main source of fuel for the chaos gods, the HH books implied that wiping out the human race would reduce the galactic threat of chaos significantly.

As a species the eldar do have their flaws, but when compared to humanity they are saints. Humanity has been the chief galactic super power for the last 10,000 years; the eldar were in that position for millions of years. They spared humanity and the other races from persecution despite being in a situation where they could have wiped them out easily. To contrast, one of the first things the imperium did when they discovered the emergent tau was schedule their species destruction. Nearly every species humanity wiped out during its reign is an alien race the eldar left alone. When looking at the two races from the perspective of an outsider(a non-human, non-eldar species), it would be fairly clear who gets the medal for most benign empire.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Also the galactic wide warp storms were not due to eldar behavior but a natural/daemonic phenomena (IIRC). The fall cleared the storms away giving relatively safe warp travel to the other races.

Incorrect...the fluff regarding the Fall implies that the Warp Storms were the 'birth pains' of Slaanesh.

Humanity is the main source of fuel for the chaos gods, the HH books implied that wiping out the human race would reduce the galactic threat of chaos significantly.

The nature of the Warp is such that even if Humans were destroyed, and the three Powers were destroyed with them, would probably result in creating a more nightmarish set of chaotic deities.

To contrast, one of the first things the imperium did when they discovered the emergent tau was schedule their species destruction. Nearly every species humanity wiped out during its reign is an alien race the eldar left alone. When looking at the two races from the perspective of an outsider(a non-human, non-eldar species), it would be fairly clear who gets the medal for most benign empire.

After Mankind's experiences in the Old Night, its not really unjustified.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Grunt13 wrote:

Humanity is the main source of fuel for the chaos gods, the HH books implied that wiping out the human race would reduce the galactic threat of chaos significantly.

The nature of the Warp is such that even if Humans were destroyed, and the three Powers were destroyed with them, would probably result in creating a more nightmarish set of chaotic deities.

Conveniently, the birth of Slaanesh (instead of some other "more nightmarish chaotic deity") is a bad thing.

To contrast, one of the first things the imperium did when they discovered the emergent tau was schedule their species destruction. Nearly every species humanity wiped out during its reign is an alien race the eldar left alone. When looking at the two races from the perspective of an outsider(a non-human, non-eldar species), it would be fairly clear who gets the medal for most benign empire.

After Mankind's experiences in the Old Night, its not really unjustified.

It is. It's as far away from justice as it can get. Unless punching an old lady in the street is justified by being hit by a bully 20 years ago.

 Grunt13 wrote:
As a species the eldar do have their flaws, but when compared to humanity they are saints. Humanity has been the chief galactic super power for the last 10,000 years; the eldar were in that position for millions of years. They spared humanity and the other races from persecution despite being in a situation where they could have wiped them out easily. To contrast, one of the first things the imperium did when they discovered the emergent tau was schedule their species destruction. Nearly every species humanity wiped out during its reign is an alien race the eldar left alone. When looking at the two races from the perspective of an outsider(a non-human, non-eldar species), it would be fairly clear who gets the medal for most benign empire.

This is basically the answer to who is the "worst one" here.
I'd go even further and say that it may be true for some human worlds. At least they may have avoided getting conquered, pacified, forced to change religion, their planet transformed into meatshields-breeding hive world and stripped from all resources. Living next to the Eldar there is a high chance they would be just ignored as "inferior apes".

Plus the eldar actually go out and do good for the galaxy, and even if it serves their long term interest; that is a lot more than the imperium does. More so than any other race in 40K (tau, necron, assortment of minor races).

1) Numerous warnings given to humanity about chaos, tyranids, and necrons that go completely ignored because the eldar are filthy xenos. Ichar was one example where the eldar went to the planetary governor and told him that a huge hive fleet was heading toward his planet and he should call in aid from the imperium. They were ignored so they had to invade the planet themselves to put Ichar on a war footing just so the planet could survive the tyranids.

2) The Interex in HH false gods. They benefited greatly from eldar guidance - showing that eldar tolerated humans as a species and would even foster them as long as they were relatively peaceful and xeno tolerant.

3) The cabal - eldar were involved with a massive cooperative multi-xeno effort against chaos.

4) Human colonist were actually saved by eldar corsairs who transported the humans via stasis chambers to another world to live on (2nd edition fluff).

5) Path of the Warrior: Main character shows empathy to humans and regrets loss of human life.

The thing I find most striking about the Craftworld dwelling Eldar is that they are a repentant group of Eldar. Some of them used to participate in the pleasure cults and the things that brought about the fall. And then realized it was wrong and changed their ways.

The Imperium in it's current state has done no such thing. The people in command in the Imperium know what they are doing is wrong. They know it isn't good for humanity, but it is the only solution they can think of to keep their race alive.

To me this makes the Imperium more tragic than the fall of the Eldar.

 Macok wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


After Mankind's experiences in the Old Night, its not really unjustified.

It is. It's as far away from justice as it can get. Unless punching an old lady in the street is justified by being hit by a bully 20 years ago.

Being bullied is very different from getting oppressed and enslaved by aliens resulting in an entire species of xenophobes.

Living next to the Eldar there is a high chance they would be just ignored as "inferior apes".

Racial discrimination is more often than not the start of slavery and oppression.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Plus the eldar actually go out and do good for the galaxy, and even if it serves their long term interest; that is a lot more than the imperium does.

Thank you for proving my point - Eldar are just as self-centered as Humans, just that the methods are different.

3) The cabal - eldar were involved with a massive cooperative multi-xeno effort against chaos.

And intended to destroy the Human species - and their vision has proven flawed, seeing as even with the Alpha Legion's assistance, Horus was still defeated. Who's to say that had Horus won, Chaos would truly have been defeated, or a worse set of deities would have created by Mankind's successors as the dominant species.

4) Human colonist were actually saved by eldar corsairs who transported the humans via stasis chambers to another world to live on (2nd edition fluff).

A rare individual case.

5) Path of the Warrior: Main character shows empathy to humans and regrets loss of human life.

As much as a pre-Civil War overlord regrets the death of 'inferiors'.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:



To me this makes the Imperium more tragic than the fall of the Eldar.

Which is, of course, the whole point of 40k.

 Tadashi wrote:
Being bullied is very different from getting oppressed and enslaved by aliens resulting in an entire species of xenophobes.

And conquering enemies and hostile forces is very different to being genocidal towards peaceful nations.

Racial discrimination is more often than not the start of slavery and oppression.

Not in the case of (Craftworld) Eldar. They don't enslave because they have no need of this. Discrimination (especially Eldar way, by ignoring, not by harming) is not in the same ligue as genocide.

Thank you for proving my point - Eldar are just as self-centered as Humans, just that the methods are different.

Quite true. Like all races in wh40k. However Human methods are much more hostile and destructive towards other races and themselves.

 Macok wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Being bullied is very different from getting oppressed and enslaved by aliens resulting in an entire species of xenophobes.

And conquering enemies and hostile forces is very different to being genocidal towards peaceful nations.

This is Warhammer 40,000 - forget the promise of of progress and understanding.

Racial discrimination is more often than not the start of slavery and oppression.

Not in the case of (Craftworld) Eldar. They don't enslave because they have no need of this. Discrimination (especially Eldar way, by ignoring, not by harming) is not in the same ligue as genocide.

The Eldar would gladly sacrifice billions of Human lives just to save a handful of their own...not so different, are we?

Thank you for proving my point - Eldar are just as self-centered as Humans, just that the methods are different.

Quite true. Like all races in wh40k. However Human methods are much more hostile and destructive towards other races and themselves.

What did you expect?

Humans will always be Humans - and Humans will always fear the unknown.

Craftworlders are traders by nature so value non-Eldar life as interesting trade partners.

Interestingly, WD127 specifically states that the Eldar had a primitive evolutionary stage; whatever influence of the Old Ones was there, the early Eldar are not the same as the later Eldar.

One Eldar philosopher regards Orks as the highest culture.

 Daba wrote:


One Eldar philosopher regards Orks as the highest culture.

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

From Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher

The Eldar are spoiled brats - compared to them, the Orks are the true masterpiece of the Old Ones.

 Tadashi wrote:

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

From Culture vs. Kultur: Thoughts on Orkish Society by Uthan the Perverse, a controversial Eldar philosopher

The Eldar are spoiled brats - compared to them, the Orks are the true masterpiece of the Old Ones.

Why do you hold so much anger against that faction?

But if you look closely, Eldar and Orks are highly related — although not said, it would make sense the two had a common ancestor. And like Ork bands, Eldar Craftworlds fight each other all the time.

Look even deeper, and Orks and Eldar are more identifiable with than the 'human' factions in the setting, that don't really seem human at all. You have un-relatable supermen with little in common with human living or meat grinder men more akin to a lot of rats than people. The reason why Skaven didn't make the jump into 40k was they were already there all along.

 Daba wrote:

The Eldar are spoiled brats - compared to them, the Orks are the true masterpiece of the Old Ones.

Why do you hold so much anger against that faction?

A good question...probably because they get all the good stuff when we've done more to deserve it than they have. Who does most of the fighting in the galaxy? Humans. Who keeps the Powers back? The Human Emperor. Who imprisoned the most powerful of the C'tan? The Human Emperor. Who has to lose billions (and more) of lives to stop a massive threat? Humans.

And who gave them the right to judge us unfit vermin, when they ripped a hole in reality and created the most perverted deity in existence? They're not so different, and so I spit on their so-called superiority.

Look even deeper, and Orks and Eldar are more identifiable with than the 'human' factions in the setting, that don't really seem human at all. You have un-relatable supermen with little in common with human living or meat grinder men more akin to a lot of rats than people. The reason why Skaven didn't make the jump into 40k was they were already there all along.

I know that, and yet Eldar treat Humans like vermin. Therefore, its only right I return the favor.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Daba wrote:

The Eldar are spoiled brats - compared to them, the Orks are the true masterpiece of the Old Ones.

Why do you hold so much anger against that faction?

A good question...probably because they get all the good stuff when we've done more to deserve it than they have. Who does most of the fighting in the galaxy? Humans. Who keeps the Powers back? The Human Emperor. Who imprisoned the most powerful of the C'tan? The Human Emperor. Who has to lose billions (and more) of lives to stop a massive threat? Humans.

And who gave them the right to judge us unfit vermin, when they ripped a hole in reality and created the most perverted deity in existence? They're not so different, and so I spit on their so-called superiority.

Look even deeper, and Orks and Eldar are more identifiable with than the 'human' factions in the setting, that don't really seem human at all. You have un-relatable supermen with little in common with human living or meat grinder men more akin to a lot of rats than people. The reason why Skaven didn't make the jump into 40k was they were already there all along.

I know that, and yet Eldar treat Humans like vermin. Therefore, its only right I return the favor.

Not all of them do. Eldrad tried to save the imperium of man by warning the Emperor about the impending fall to chaos. Sadly, what he did not expect, was that the primarch he delivered the message to was already tainted.

On multiple occasions in the fluff the Eldar have gone out of their way to try and help humanity. The Imperium however, has at every turn, met the Eldar with nothing but war in mind. Notice that the branches of Humanity that were outside of the imperiums cold reach were taught about chaos and trained to defend against it by the Eldar (Horus Rising). This is something that even the Emperor did not do for his own people.

You should not judge a race by the actions of a few.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


The Eldar are spoiled brats - compared to them, the Orks are the true masterpiece of the Old Ones.

Why do you hold so much anger against that faction?

A good question...probably because they get all the good stuff when we've done more to deserve it than they have. Who does most of the fighting in the galaxy? Humans. Who keeps the Powers back? The Human Emperor. Who imprisoned the most powerful of the C'tan? The Human Emperor. Who has to lose billions (and more) of lives to stop a massive threat? Humans.

And who gave them the right to judge us unfit vermin, when they ripped a hole in reality and created the most perverted deity in existence? They're not so different, and so I spit on their so-called superiority.

The Eldar potentially fought in the largest battle the Universe and you're moaning that they don't deserve what the Old Ones awarded to them? The Orks might be in exactly the same standing if they hadn't had lost the Brain Boyz, their technology in tractor beams and force shields is unrivaled, in old fluff at least.

And to say that Mankind fights the most is ludicrous, Mankind squabbles amongst itself as much as they do with other Xenos, at least the Eldar seem to have some form of loyalty, even with their erstwhile kin.

You could argue that Mankind were guilty of giving us three Chaos Gods to the Eldars one, regardless of what the intention of the Emperor was. The Eldar were the true inheritors to the Galaxy but they let their own self importance get the better of them, which is exactly what will happen to the Imperium and the Eldar can see it taking root.

Your argument of who gives them the right to judge mankind is fair I guess, but what gave the Emperor the right to declare the great crusade and wipe out countless Xenos Species and lord knows how many human colonies that could not be bought to heel?

 Tadashi wrote:

 Daba wrote:

Look even deeper, and Orks and Eldar are more identifiable with than the 'human' factions in the setting, that don't really seem human at all. You have un-relatable supermen with little in common with human living or meat grinder men more akin to a lot of rats than people. The reason why Skaven didn't make the jump into 40k was they were already there all along.

I know that, and yet Eldar treat Humans like vermin. Therefore, its only right I return the favor.

You know Eldar personally do you

 Tadashi wrote:

A good question...probably because they get all the good stuff when we've done more to deserve it than they have. Who does most of the fighting in the galaxy?
Humans.

Orks disagree.

Who keeps the Powers back? The Human Emperor.

It's arguable whether that even does anything, and is very possible what the Emperor strengthened them with the crusade and made the Galaxy full of war from his actions on the first place.

Who imprisoned the most powerful of the C'tan? The Human Emperor.

It wasn't even clear if that's what happened, and it had been crippled by the Eldar talismans before so all he did was imprison an already defeated beast if he did it at all.

Who has to lose billions (and more) of lives to stop a massive threat? Humans.

Massive threats against who? All factions fight their enemies; some do it more effectively than others.

And who gave them the right to judge us unfit vermin, when they ripped a hole in reality and created the most perverted deity in existence? They're not so different, and so I spit on their so-called superiority.

The people who say this are captured and tortured outcasts, and does not represent the race as a whole. In 2nd edition, there were examples of Eldar appreciating Imperial art, and in another they did not like the way the human enemies were throwing their own lives away with suicide bombs.

On the other hand, the ranger was being tortured to death; of course he is going to bite back at his captors.

I know that, and yet Eldar treat Humans like vermin. Therefore, its only right I return the favor.

The point is that the 'humans' in 40k aren't very identifiable as humans. It isn't the Eldar who treat them like vermin but their own kind! The Orks are a horde faction, but all full bodied Orks are there because they want to be, not because they are ordered or brainwashed to be there.

 Amanax wrote:


Not all of them do.

Funny...last I looked, before Eldrad got his, he once said he would gladly see the Emperor and all of Mankind dead. Good luck with that, seeing as without the old man holding them back (which he probably did even back when the elder three woke up in the Dark Ages), the Powers will be free to manifest in reality.

You should not judge a race by the actions of a few.

A few? Say that again when the Eldar as a race stop viewing us as mere vermin.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


The Eldar potentially fought in the largest battle the Universe and you're moaning that they don't deserve what the Old Ones awarded to them? The Orks might be in exactly the same standing if they hadn't had lost the Brain Boyz, their technology in tractor beams and force shields is unrivaled, in old fluff at least.

They forfeited the right to what was given when they damned the galaxy with the curse of Slaanesh.

You could argue that Mankind were guilty of giving us three Chaos Gods to the Eldars one, regardless of what the intention of the Emperor was. The Eldar were the true inheritors to the Galaxy but they let their own self importance get the better of them, which is exactly what will happen to the Imperium and the Eldar can see it taking root.

Not if the Emperor can say anything about it...behold! His final decree in the face of damnation - Terminus...(said in the same way as the Pirate Code)

Your argument of who gives them the right to judge mankind is fair I guess, but what gave the Emperor the right to declare the great crusade and wipe out countless Xenos Species and lord knows how many human colonies that could not be bought to heel?

There was no choice...it was survival or obliteration.

 Tadashi wrote:


You know Eldar personally do you

Give me a piece of fluff wherein they don't look down on Humans, and maybe I'll reconsider.

 Daba wrote:

It's arguable whether that even does anything, and is very possible what the Emperor strengthened them with the crusade and made the Galaxy full of war from his actions on the first place.

Please look at the BRB...it always mentions the Emperor keeping Chaos back.

Who imprisoned the most powerful of the C'tan? The Human Emperor.

It wasn't even clear if that's what happened, and it had been crippled by the Eldar talismans before so all he did was imprison an already defeated beast if he did it at all.

The Void Dragon was undefeated by the Blackstones...and endured for millions of years after the War in Heaven. Seeing as none of the Eldar could seal it, and the Emperor did, I'd say that shows who truly defeated the Void Dragon.

The people who say this are captured and tortured outcasts, and does not represent the race as a whole.

Eldrad would have gladly seen the Emperor and Mankind destroyed...thankfully, the is gone, for which I am for once grateful to a Power of Chaos.

Tadashi wrote:

They forfeited the right to what was given when they damned the galaxy with the curse of Slaanesh.

And Mankind forfeited the right to rule the stars when their actions bought Tzeentch, Nurgle and Khorne to full sentience.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
You could argue that Mankind were guilty of giving us three Chaos Gods to the Eldars one, regardless of what the intention of the Emperor was. The Eldar were the true inheritors to the Galaxy but they let their own self importance get the better of them, which is exactly what will happen to the Imperium and the Eldar can see it taking root.

Not if the Emperor can say anything about it...behold! His final decree in the face of damnation - Terminus...(said in the same way as the Pirate Code)

Am missing your point here.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Your argument of who gives them the right to judge mankind is fair I guess, but what gave the Emperor the right to declare the great crusade and wipe out countless Xenos Species and lord knows how many human colonies that could not be bought to heel?

There was no choice...it was survival or obliteration.

Really, the Interex seemed to prosper before the Great Crusade reached them, they had built relations with the Eldar and seemed to do just fine, the Auretian Technocracy for another, the Isstvanians, the Diasporex, all conquered because the Emperor was blind to tolerance with Xenos.

 Pilau Rice wrote:


They forfeited the right to what was given when they damned the galaxy with the curse of Slaanesh.

Not really...its not like we deliberately brought them into existence...the pre-Fall Eldar (or some of them) sought to create a 'god' who would allow them to live in endless pleasure. Ironic, as it turned out.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Not if the Emperor can say anything about it...behold! His final decree in the face of damnation - Terminus...(said in the same way as the Pirate Code)

Am missing your point here.

My point is that the Emperor's has a trump card of his own in case we go the way of the Eldar.

Really, the Interex seemed to prosper before the Great Crusade reached them, they had built relations with the Eldar and seemed to do just fine, the Auretian Technocracy for another, the Isstvanians, the Diasporex, all conquered because the Emperor was blind to tolerance with Xenos.

And what about the rest of Mankind?

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:


They forfeited the right to what was given when they damned the galaxy with the curse of Slaanesh.

Not really...its not like we deliberately brought them into existence...the pre-Fall Eldar (or some of them) sought to create a 'god' who would allow them to live in endless pleasure. Ironic, as it turned out.

Still, we did, you said yourself only some of the Eldar wanted that outcome. Are the actions of the few enough to tarnish a whole race with the same brush? Humans might not have been worshiping Khorne or the others directly but there have been deities with the same characteristics worshiped for centuries, just Khorne or Kharnath by another name.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Not if the Emperor can say anything about it...behold! His final decree in the face of damnation - Terminus...(said in the same way as the Pirate Code)

Am missing your point here.

My point is that the Emperor's has a trump card of his own in case we go the way of the Eldar.

Better press that button now then as with the Eldar, it was too late by the time they realised what was happening.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:
Really, the Interex seemed to prosper before the Great Crusade reached them, they had built relations with the Eldar and seemed to do just fine, the Auretian Technocracy for another, the Isstvanians, the Diasporex, all conquered because the Emperor was blind to tolerance with Xenos.

And what about the rest of Mankind?

Did they need to go planet hoping and wiping out civilisations? No.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Tadashi wrote:
Not if the Emperor can say anything about it...behold! His final decree in the face of damnation - Terminus...(said in the same way as the Pirate Code)

Am missing your point here.

My point is that the Emperor's has a trump card of his own in case we go the way of the Eldar.

Better press that button now then as with the Eldar, it was too late by the time they realised what was happening.

The Purifiers know when to push it...not even the Eldar are as good as fighting Chaos as the Purifiers are, Wardian gak aside.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Really, the Interex seemed to prosper before the Great Crusade reached them, they had built relations with the Eldar and seemed to do just fine, the Auretian Technocracy for another, the Isstvanians, the Diasporex, all conquered because the Emperor was blind to tolerance with Xenos.

And what about the rest of Mankind?

Did they need to go planet hoping and wiping out civilisations? No.

Better safe than sorry, seeing as lots of Humans were oppressed by Xenos in the Old Night - neither the old man or Mankind were in any forgiving mood.

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Better press that button now then as with the Eldar, it was too late by the time they realised what was happening.

The Purifiers know when to push it...not even the Eldar are as good as fighting Chaos as the Purifiers are, Wardian gak aside.

If it is too late and the rot has taken hold, it is too late. Not even the Grey Knights know of every bit of taint in the Imperium.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Did they need to go planet hoping and wiping out civilisations? No.

Better safe than sorry, seeing as lots of Humans were oppressed by Xenos in the Old Night - neither the old man or Mankind were in any forgiving mood.

True, but then they crushed those that weren't and those that co existed, mankind knew no better as it was being led by a warmongering tyrant that destroyed all opposition on his own planet.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

Better press that button now then as with the Eldar, it was too late by the time they realised what was happening.

The Purifiers know when to push it...not even the Eldar are as good as fighting Chaos as the Purifiers are, Wardian gak aside.

If it is too late and the rot has taken hold, it is too late. Not even the Grey Knights know of every bit of taint in the Imperium.

Perhaps...but when the Terminus Decree is invoked (or when GW goes bankrupt), then everything will end as the Emperor wished it.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Did they need to go planet hoping and wiping out civilisations? No.

Better safe than sorry, seeing as lots of Humans were oppressed by Xenos in the Old Night - neither the old man or Mankind were in any forgiving mood.

True, but then they crushed those that weren't and those that co existed, mankind knew no better as it was being led by a warmongering tyrant that destroyed all opposition on his own planet.

I appreciate your concern for the common man/xenos, but the world/galaxy is messy enough. What it need is unification, leadership! (yes, I paraphrased it from G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra)

As for the tyrant part...technically some of the most celebrated heroes/leaders in myth, legend,, and history were tyrants: King Arthur, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Emperor Meiji, Queen Elizabeth I, Queen Victoria, Peter the Great, Catherine the Great, Napoleon Bonaparte, etc. and, thanks to their culture-based absolute authority, the current King of Thailand and the current Japanese Emperor are also tyrants...its all a matter of perspective.

 Tadashi wrote:


Perhaps...but when the Terminus Decree is invoked (or when GW goes bankrupt), then everything will end as the Emperor wished it.

Is that a fact is it? I am not sure I agree with you at all, for someone who cared so much about mankind to just destroy it all seems such a waste of time.

Tadashi wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

Did they need to go planet hoping and wiping out civilisations? No.

I appreciate your concern for the common man/xenos, but the world/galaxy is messy enough. What it need is unification, leadership! (yes, I paraphrased it from G.I. Joe: The Rise of Cobra)

Because that is something the Imperium does so well I mean when the Emperor was around everyone was so happy with the way he was running things .. oh wait ...

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:


Perhaps...but when the Terminus Decree is invoked (or when GW goes bankrupt), then everything will end as the Emperor wished it.

Is that a fact is it? I am not sure I agree with you at all, for someone who cared so much about mankind to just destroy it all seems such a waste of time.

If we can't have it, then no one can. And, IIRC, 'terminus' is a latin word describing an end for something.

Could be the end of the Emperors loo roll for all we know

And the beginning of the Age of Chaos...meh. Better for the galaxy to burn in the hands of Chaos than let it grow in the hands of filthy xenos.

 Tadashi wrote:
And the beginning of the Age of Chaos...meh. Better for the galaxy to burn in the hands of Chaos than let it grow in the hands of filthy xenos.

So much for being the biggest defender against the 'threats' then?

 Daba wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
And the beginning of the Age of Chaos...meh. Better for the galaxy to burn in the hands of Chaos than let it grow in the hands of filthy xenos.

So much for being the biggest defender against the 'threats' then?

The Emperor's dead, the Imperium's in ruins, what then? Submit to nose-less fish people? Become slaves and lapdogs of pointy-eared limp-wrists? No thank you...I would sooner die than see the galaxy, in the hands of an elf!

 Tadashi wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
And the beginning of the Age of Chaos...meh. Better for the galaxy to burn in the hands of Chaos than let it grow in the hands of filthy xenos.

So much for being the biggest defender against the 'threats' then?

The Emperor's dead, the Imperium's in ruins, what then? Submit to nose-less fish people? Become slaves and lapdogs of pointy-eared limp-wrists? No thank you...I would sooner die than see the galaxy, in the hands of an elf!

If you think that the Great Powers would allow anyone to simply die then you are delusional.

I would only die if the only other choice would be to kneel to xenos filth...otherwise, PRAISE BE TO TZEENTCH!!!

 KingDeath wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 Daba wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
And the beginning of the Age of Chaos...meh. Better for the galaxy to burn in the hands of Chaos than let it grow in the hands of filthy xenos.

So much for being the biggest defender against the 'threats' then?

The Emperor's dead, the Imperium's in ruins, what then? Submit to nose-less fish people? Become slaves and lapdogs of pointy-eared limp-wrists? No thank you...I would sooner die than see the galaxy, in the hands of an elf!

If you think that the Great Powers would allow anyone to simply die then you are delusional.

There's too many lives that would be lost for even Tzeench to count. Not all of them would be tortured forever by chaos gods, and after chaos had destroyed all life, there would be no fear to feed them, nor plague, war, etc. They'd go back to how they were before humanity came along, and I doubt that includes a capacity for torturing souls.

Tadashi wrote:

And that's a non-sequitier that has nothing to do with the Imperium choosing to start a Great Crusade which resulted in the extinction of 90% of the Galaxy's sentient life forms, earning the Imperium the title King of the Douchebags.

UNCARING. Ends justify the means.

What end was there?

The Imperium (unprovoked) slaughtered countless Xenos empires just to get more resources. And then it fell apart.

All the Great Crusade did was cause suffering and sow the seeds of heresy.

Imperial power and galactic domination is an end in itself.

 Tadashi wrote:
Imperial power and galactic domination is an end in itself.

But that isn't a good thing.

How does that end justify slaughtering innocents by the billion?

Because it benefits Mankind as a whole to remain united and strong...the individual and the rest of the galaxy can ream themselves.

...to promote and secure Humanity's continued strength. Don't let idealism blind you...

The Illusive Man got it right...

 Tadashi wrote:
Because it benefits Mankind as a whole to remain united and strong...the individual and the rest of the galaxy can ream themselves.

...to promote and secure Humanity's continued strength. Don't let idealism blind you...

The Illusive Man got it right...

It's okay to slaughter innocents, because that way humanity is strong.

Really?

Yes. After all, no one prosecutes winners. Otherwise, President Truman and the guys who ordered Japan's cities reduced to ashes would have stood trial too...I am merely being realistic.

 Tadashi wrote:
Yes. After all, no one prosecutes winners. Otherwise, President Truman and the guys who ordered Japan's cities reduced to ashes would have stood trial too...I am merely being realistic.

You're confusing morality with legality.

Also, about the Japan thing, what do you propose the US did instead? Japan would've fought hardcore if we'd taken another option.

Yes, I know. As I said, I'm being realistic - whether IRL or in 40k, we have to make the hard decisions, even if it means committing xenocide and chaining your own species. Complete freedom only brings about the abandonment of morals - it will bring about annihilation. In an orderly society, people fully enjoy limited freedom. They're happier that way, protected in a cage.

 Tadashi wrote:
Yes, I know. As I said, I'm being realistic - whether IRL or in 40k, we have to make the hard decisions, even if it means committing xenocide and chaining your own species. Complete freedom only brings about the abandonment of morals - it will bring about annihilation. In an orderly society, people fully enjoy limited freedom. They're happier that way, protected in a cage.

What the flying rodent feth are you even talking about? That isn't even an argument; that's just angsty buzzwords.

Look, the Imperium killed a bunch of peaceful races not for survival, but for power. And I said that's wrong. So you're reaction was to bring up Japan and talked about "the real world" and how people belong in cages.

So, how do you justify killing innocents out of greed? And please, please, please, please, please don't somehow drag Japan into this.

 LoneLictor wrote:


Look, the Imperium killed a bunch of peaceful races not for survival, but for power. And I said that's wrong. So you're reaction was to bring up Japan and talked about "the real world" and how people belong in cages.

So, how do you justify killing innocents out of greed? And please, please, please, please, please don't somehow drag Japan into this.

Fine...seeing as there's no guarantee the vast majority of xenos species will remain friendly forever, its better to be safe than sorry and just wipe them out. And since there's no one left on their worlds, we might as well put them to good use. We're practically saints - instead of enslaving them, we give them the mercy of a quick death/honorable death fighting the Emperor's soldiers.

There is no such thing as a moral right or wrong. They are merely feeble abstract concepts of a feeble ephemeral species.

...

OK...that was unexpected. Why don't we just leave it to the winners get all, while the losers get nothing at all. A good philosophy to apply to this is cosmicism, wherein the universe is not only vast but also uncaring, and that Humans and everything else are less than dirt - not to mention concepts of 'good and evil, right and wrong' are ultimately meaningless. If we use that, then we have no need to argue for justifications for the Imperium's bloody rise to power and its iron-handed desire to hold onto that power.

The point of it that this is merely a debate of opinion. And debates on opinions on matters like this almost never go anywhere except in circles. So instead of fighting, just accept the other's stance on the matter to be different than your own. (Just happened to throw my own opinion into the arena).

And your opinion is?

 Tadashi wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:


Look, the Imperium killed a bunch of peaceful races not for survival, but for power. And I said that's wrong. So you're reaction was to bring up Japan and talked about "the real world" and how people belong in cages.

So, how do you justify killing innocents out of greed? And please, please, please, please, please don't somehow drag Japan into this.

Fine...seeing as there's no guarantee the vast majority of xenos species will remain friendly forever, its better to be safe than sorry and just wipe them out. And since there's no one left on their worlds, we might as well put them to good use. We're practically saints - instead of enslaving them, we give them the mercy of a quick death/honorable death fighting the Emperor's soldiers.

So, there's no guarantee that they'll be friendly forever, so we have to kill them.

I imagine you have a lot of friends. "I have no way of knowing if he'll be my friend forever; I have no choice but to slit his throat. And take his stuff too, because it would be wasteful not to."

Tadashi, I'm like 90% sure you're just trolling with this.

EDIT: Also, don't say 'we're'. Say 'they're'. You're not part of the Imperium; the Imperium isn't real.

 Tadashi wrote:
And your opinion is?

That neither man nor eldar are morally right nor wrong.

 LoneLictor wrote:


I imagine you have a lot of friends.

I have enough...though I believe they might betray me at some point, so I don't trust them completely to give them, *ahem*, sensitive information.

 King Pariah wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
And your opinion is?

That neither man nor eldar are morally right nor wrong.

Naturally...this is 40k, after all.

Tadashi wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

I imagine you have a lot of friends.

I have enough...though I believe they might betray me at some point, so I don't trust them completely to give them, *ahem*, sensitive information.

Like the fact that you believe that killing people is okay because they might stop wanting to be your friend?

If you seriously, seriously believe this (which I doubt you do), I suggest you see a psychiatrist. You could have antisocial personality disorder or all sorts of other treatable psychological conditions. Seeing a psychiatrist helped me a lot. I used to have severe problems with anxiety and depression, but now that I'm on happy magical fun pills I'm much better.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Imperial power and galactic domination is an end in itself.

But that isn't a good thing.

How does that end justify slaughtering innocents by the billion?

Welcome to the 41st millennium. Grimdark.

Grimdark =\= not stupid as hell and worthy of contempt from a RL perspective.

BlaxicanX wrote:
Grimdark =\= not stupid as hell and worthy of contempt from a RL perspective.

RL perspective has no relevence in 40k... it is not real life.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

I imagine you have a lot of friends.

I have enough...though I believe they might betray me at some point, so I don't trust them completely to give them, *ahem*, sensitive information.

Like the fact that you believe that killing people is okay because they might stop wanting to be your friend?

More like destroying their reputations and ruining their social life as opposed to killing them if they ever backstab me...

If you seriously, seriously believe this (which I doubt you do), I suggest you see a psychiatrist.

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

 Harriticus wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Imperial power and galactic domination is an end in itself.

But that isn't a good thing.

How does that end justify slaughtering innocents by the billion?

Welcome to the 41st millennium. Grimdark.

THIS. Its grimdark, and its 40k. If real life ever became grimdark (unlikely, but not impossible), then our 'modern' ethics and morality would be meaningless.

Tadashi wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:

I imagine you have a lot of friends.

I have enough...though I believe they might betray me at some point, so I don't trust them completely to give them, *ahem*, sensitive information.

Like the fact that you believe that killing people is okay because they might stop wanting to be your friend?

More like destroying their reputations and ruining their social life as opposed to killing them if they ever backstab me...

If you seriously, seriously believe this (which I doubt you do), I suggest you see a psychiatrist.

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

I. AM. NOT. A. PSYCHO. I'm just the "jealous type". And that's the reason I avoid intimate relationships - I'd rather not letting my bloodthirsty side out. And yanderes are rare and unique compared to tsundere - and I would prefer being called yandere to being called tsundere.

 Tadashi wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

I. AM. NOT. A. PSYCHO. I'm just the "jealous type". And that's the reason I avoid intimate relationships - I'd rather not letting my bloodthirsty side out. And yanderes are rare and unique compared to tsundere - and I would prefer being called yandere to being called tsundere.

A psychiatrist said you had 'psychopathic tendencies'.

Get help.

 LoneLictor wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

I. AM. NOT. A. PSYCHO. I'm just the "jealous type". And that's the reason I avoid intimate relationships - I'd rather not letting my bloodthirsty side out. And yanderes are rare and unique compared to tsundere - and I would prefer being called yandere to being called tsundere.

A psychiatrist said you had 'psychopathic tendencies'.

Get help.

So I start to lose control in the event of rejection/betrayal, big deal. As I said, there's a reason I avoid intimate relationships. That way, I can keep my dark side (no pun intended) shackled.

 Tadashi wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

I. AM. NOT. A. PSYCHO. I'm just the "jealous type". And that's the reason I avoid intimate relationships - I'd rather not letting my bloodthirsty side out. And yanderes are rare and unique compared to tsundere - and I would prefer being called yandere to being called tsundere.

That's a very Eldar sense of superiority that I'm detecting I get the feeling you've been thumped in tournies one too many times by an Eldar army

Seriously, why do have what borders nearly on hatred for the Eldar?

Tadashi wrote:So I start to lose control in the event of rejection/betrayal, big deal. As I said, there's a reason I avoid intimate relationships. That way, I can keep my dark side (no pun intended) shackled.

You avoid people out of the fear that you'll go on a psychopathic rampage.

If you can't see why this is a bad thing, I'm done.

 The_Solitaire wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

I. AM. NOT. A. PSYCHO. I'm just the "jealous type". And that's the reason I avoid intimate relationships - I'd rather not letting my bloodthirsty side out. And yanderes are rare and unique compared to tsundere - and I would prefer being called yandere to being called tsundere.

That's a very Eldar sense of superiority that I'm detecting I get the feeling you've been thumped in tournies one too many times by an Eldar army

Seriously, why do have what borders nearly on hatred for the Eldar?

Huh? Your quotes make no sense with regard to what you posted.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:So I start to lose control in the event of rejection/betrayal, big deal. As I said, there's a reason I avoid intimate relationships. That way, I can keep my dark side (no pun intended) shackled.

You avoid people out of the fear that you'll go on a psychopathic rampage.

If you can't see why this is a bad thing, I'm done.

I avoid intimate relationships, not people. There's a difference.

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:So I start to lose control in the event of rejection/betrayal, big deal. As I said, there's a reason I avoid intimate relationships. That way, I can keep my dark side (no pun intended) shackled.

You avoid people out of the fear that you'll go on a psychopathic rampage.

If you can't see why this is a bad thing, I'm done.

Lol.

LoneLictor, you are a hilarious individual. Tadashi isn't the only diagnosed "psychopath" here.

And no offense, but you come across as quite aggravating to those who struggle with some sort of mental issue. That is not a good thing and I recommend you just drop it. Pronto.

Thank You, King Pariah.

No problem Tadashi

 The_Solitaire wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 LoneLictor wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Already did a while back in HS. The school psychiatrist noted "...slight psychopathic tendencies over the subjects of rejection and betrayal." And recently a friend of mine called me a 'yandere'...TBH, I'm flattered.

You aren't supposed to be flattered when people point out that you're a psycho.

See another psychiatrist; get help. I dunno, do something.

I. AM. NOT. A. PSYCHO. I'm just the "jealous type". And that's the reason I avoid intimate relationships - I'd rather not letting my bloodthirsty side out. And yanderes are rare and unique compared to tsundere - and I would prefer being called yandere to being called tsundere.

That's a very Eldar sense of superiority that I'm detecting I get the feeling you've been thumped in tournies one too many times by an Eldar army

Seriously, why do have what borders nearly on hatred for the Eldar?

Puny humans, they hate what they fear

"Is that so now?" The Rogue Trader shoots the Dark Reaper at point-blank with a Bolt Pistol, but the Eldar dodges, simultaneously drawing a Power Sword and swinging it at the Human's neck - only to catch a shot from a Jokaero digi-ring right between the eyes. "Not so cocky now, are you, witch?"

Well this topic got kinda weird...

Why is it weird? If you're referring to what me and LoneLictor were doing, its just the result of our discussion whether or not the Imperium's paranoia regarding xenos was justified - which it is legally, if not morally or ethically. He was the one who brought it down to the personal level.

Doesn't mean it didn't get weird...

...

What is weird about it?

What was weird about someone admitting they enjoy the fact they have psychopathic tendencies?
Really?

I don't enjoy it...but I don't enjoy hiding from the truth even more. In fact, the idea I have to avoid intimate relationships is very good - less baggage for the dream of immortality. I don't have to worry about leaving family behind, and I can go on my Great Journey (yes, practically lifted from Halo) in pursuit of knowledge and power without regrets.

 purplefood wrote:
What was weird about someone admitting they enjoy the fact they have psychopathic tendencies?
Really?

I agree, its weird to discuss it in the forum, but...

Despite the name and reputation, psychopathic behaviour doesn't actually/necessarily refer to anti-social or violent behaviour (that's typically sociopathic/ASPD). Whilst a very small minority of people are actually psychopathic, even fewer commit crimes - most live relatively normal and often successful lives (it can actually aid some corporate behaviour).
Psychopathy is typically characterised by a lack of intimacy, empathy, remorse and general glibness, rather than overt anti-social behaviour - which can admittedly occur as a result of the typical characteristics (just mentioned).
Contrary to what Lonelictor suggests, its typically not readily treatable, if treatable at all, like most personality disorders and unlike other mental illness such as anxiety disorders.
Heck, you could say in most cases it doesn't need treating as people with psychopathy can lead perfectly happy lives.
Indeed, some may not want spouses for example, unlike most. But different strokes for different folks.

Just trying to be informative...



Anyways, moving back on topic, Eldar and Orks were created by the old ones yo!
Whilst the Eldar were to fight the Necrontyr and in all likelihood inherit the galaxy, someone has previously suggested to me it would be cool if the Orks were meant to be like the white blood cells of the galaxy - vs. the Nids for example.

 Just Dave wrote:


Despite the name and reputation, psychopathic behaviour doesn't actually/necessarily refer to anti-social or violent behaviour (that's typically sociopathic/ASPD). Whilst a very small minority of people are actually psychopathic, even fewer commit crimes - most live relatively normal and often successful lives (it can actually aid some corporate behaviour).
Psychopathy is typically characterised by a lack of intimacy, empathy, remorse and general glibness, rather than overt anti-social behaviour - which can admittedly occur as a result of the typical characteristics (just mentioned).
Contrary to what Lonelictor suggests, its typically not readily treatable, if treatable at all, like most personality disorders and unlike other mental illness such as anxiety disorders.
Heck, you could say in most cases it doesn't need treating as people with psychopathy can lead perfectly happy lives.
Indeed, some may not want spouses for example, unlike most. But different strokes for different folks.

My head hurts...sounds like what the shrink back in HS said. But yes, apart from avoiding intimacy, and keeping friends at a certain distance, I have no problems keeping my 'tendencies' in check. And regarding empathy and remorse...for some reason I have the latter but I don't have the former when it comes to people I don't know - sometimes, instead of pity, I just feel amusement.

Anyways, moving back on topic, Eldar and Orks were created by the old ones yo!
Whilst the Eldar were to fight the Necrontyr and in all likelihood inherit the galaxy, someone has previously suggested to me it would be cool if the Orks were meant to be like the white blood cells of the galaxy - vs. the Nids for example.

They forfeited the galaxy when they raped/cannibalized/murdered Slaanesh into existence. Orks are orks, and nothing less.