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I tried to look it up but was rather unsuccessful. It vexes me that there is no lore for em, what they just magic'd into existance?

A custom psychic/warrior race created to serve as proxy warriors by and for the Old Ones. In the oldcron codex, there was a connection with the Humans, but the newcron codex completely removes this connection.

Genetically engineered by the Old Ones to battle the Necrontyr, along with the Krorks, and some other races.

At least that was the lore prior to the current Cron book. I have no clue what if any changes in that book may have impacted decades of established fluff.

I've heard some speculation that they might have reptilian ties?

It is still canon that the Eldar were sired by the Old Ones. As to their home planet and history before becoming a sadistic galaxy-spanning empire, GW doesn't feel that's particularly important. And indeed, for all intensive purposes it really isn't that relevant for the 41st Millennia, the fall, and so on.

The Eldar original homeworld (and core worlds), and the centre of their empire was situated where the Eye of Terror now resides (in fact, they were the cause of it when Slaanesh was born). there are references (not that i can remember where from) that talk of their worlds trapped within the Eye...

Before the Oldcron codex, I believe, the Eldar weren't created by the Old Ones, but rather evolved much as humans did except that they did so long before humans ever evolved.

The Eldar WERE CREATED by the old ones. Established 20+ year fluff. (There is canon, there is no canon. Pick and choose what you like. I choose to ignore anything that retcons older stuff. It means I don't go into rages over anything Mat Ward writes).

They were made as "perfect" as they could be done - a naturally gifted psychic race. Perfect in their arrogance. They were a weapon against the necrontry - like the krork (who were designed as the perfect warrior unclouded by reason).

This is one of the reasons that the Eldar look down on humans. The eldar were made the way they are - humanity evolved through random chance and changes. The eldar ruled the galaxy whilst human ancestors still swung through trees.

And it's fluff, not lore. Lore grants it a relevance and "gravitas" that it neither deserves nor needs.

 chromedog wrote:


This is one of the reasons that the Eldar look down on humans. The eldar were made the way they are - humanity evolved through random chance and changes. The eldar ruled the galaxy whilst human ancestors still swung through trees.

That actually makes Humans, Tau, and Necrons more deserving of the galaxy than the Eldar or the Orks - they ascended to the stars by their own achievements as opposed to getting it as a gift from a failed elder race.

Im not sure but the old ones could have found the very early primitive eldar and very extensively modified them to be the arrogant psyker race that they are.

Was there some evidence that humans were at one point at least experimented on by either the necrontyr or old ones, due to the pariah gene (although rare) being present in the human gene pool?

The old ones were involved with eldar origins is some manner. The Old Ones flew around the galaxy creating, modifying, and nurturing life. What isn’t quite clear is whether they just created a bunch of eldar, or helped an existing species along. IIRC from oldcron fluff, when the war in heaven came along, eldar were modified to defend themselves and fight back as were a bunch of other species like the kork - they were not originally (designed / guided) with the purpose of being weapons in mind. The extent of the war modification was the unlocking of their psychic potential - this is the only thing I recall that was explicitly stated as an Old One modification upon the eldar. The level of Old One intervention (or outright creation) on the eldar prior to this is likely open to speculation.

I think, that I remember reading somewhere (2nd fluff or older) about pre-eldar being tree dwelling, feline-like creatures. The MO of the old ones is to modify life, not build from scratch in most cases (oldcron fluff, warhammer fantasy). Humans are said to be also effected by their interventions (xenology) - IIRC that was one of the reason eldar didn’t just exterminate the humans when they began flooding the galaxy - they thought there was a point to the human race’s existence (don’t recall source). One thing about the eldar is that they are no longer biologically evolving (xenology) - a million old eldar fossil was genetically indiscernible from current eldar.

 vodo40k wrote:


Was there some evidence that humans were at one point at least experimented on by either the necrontyr or old ones, due to the pariah gene (although rare) being present in the human gene pool?

Not anymore...all references to a Human connection to either the Old Ones or the C'tan are gone.

 Grunt13 wrote:


I think, that I remember reading somewhere (2nd fluff or older) about pre-eldar being tree dwelling, feline-like creatures.

And we get looked down on for being descended from tree dwelling, ape-like creatures? Talk about hypocrites...looks like we aren't so different after all...

Xenology and Warhammer Fantasy has the humans as products of Old Ones intervention. Xenology implied that the old ones had a fondness for the humanoid form in general, suggesting that orks, eldar, tau, hurd, humans, and basically any humanoid in 40K is their handiwork. In Xenology there was a broken, ancient, eldar tablet displaying some races matured or planned by the old ones; the broken piece was shown later to display humans.

Eldar’s view of self-superiority when compared to humans is quite justified. Humans are fairly close to orks in their conduct when compared to the eldar from their perspective (pointless wars, overbreeding, destroying worlds with pollution, making a mess of the galaxy in general, feeding chaos). Plus eldar were the favored child of the old ones, they are the Old Ones natural heirs. Humanity must come across to the eldar like a Three Stooges movie taking place in a nuclear missile silo - and that’s when the imperium is at its most benign.

 Grunt13 wrote:
Xenology and Warhammer Fantasy has the humans as products of Old Ones intervention. Xenology implied that the old ones had a fondness for the humanoid form in general, suggesting that orks, eldar, tau, hurd, humans, and basically any humanoid in 40K is their handiwork. In Xenology there was a broken, ancient, eldar tablet displaying some races matured or planned by the old ones; the broken piece was shown later to display humans.

Xenology is still valid, I think...but the connection between Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 was supposed to have been gone since 3rd Edition AFAIK.

Eldar’s view of self-superiority when compared to humans is quite justified. Humans are fairly close to orks in their conduct when compared to the eldar from their perspective (pointless wars, overbreeding, destroying worlds with pollution, making a mess of the galaxy in general, feeding chaos).

Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

Plus eldar were the favored child of the old ones, they are the Old Ones natural heirs. Humanity must come across to the eldar like a Three Stooges movie taking place in a nuclear missile silo - and that’s when the imperium is at its most benign.

That just makes the Eldar look like spoiled brats - compared to everyone else, and especially the Humans, Tau, and Necrons, they got everything relatively easily and without actually working for it. Humans, Tau, and Necrons had to work their way up to where they are now.

 Tadashi wrote:
Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

The Craftworld and Exodite Eldar had absolutely nothing to do with that incident, in fact the opposite (Craftworld Eldar tried to prevent it). So that example doesn't really hold water. As well, while The Fall was catastrophic for the Eldar, it wasn't nearly as damaging as the Human-led Great Crusade was. During the Great Crusade, the Imperium literally made every Xenos race it found extinct, except for the ones who could get away (Eldar), or those who were non-sentient enough to be considered not a threat and ignored. No other humanoid race has had a more hostile and cancerous influence on the Galaxy than Humanity.

That just makes the Eldar look like spoiled brats - compared to everyone else, and especially the Humans, Tau, and Necrons, they got everything relatively easily and without actually working for it. Humans, Tau, and Necrons had to work their way up to where they are now.

Humanity got its technology from the Void Dragon and the Necrons got their best stuff from the C'Tan.

Anyway, it's entirely obvious that Eldar are superior to Humanity in everything but numbers. Sans a few exceptions such as the Emperor and Magnus, Eldar are stronger Psykers. They don't require gene-enhancements and bionics to have Space Marine level physical characteristics. Eldar society is significantly more advanced than the Imperium, with every Eldar having all the material possessions they could ever want they don't even use currency, and they can do whatever they want with their lives at any time. They never attack other factions out of spite or a desire to conquer, fighting only if threatened, or to prevent a foreseen disaster, and have absolutely no problem with letting other factions handle their own business so long as that business doesn't result in harm to Eldar lives. It's hard to find a less malevolent faction in a universe filled with malevolent factions.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

The Craftworld and Exodite Eldar had absolutely nothing to do with that incident, in fact the opposite (Craftworld Eldar tried to prevent it). So that example doesn't really hold water. As well, while The Fall was catastrophic for the Eldar, it wasn't nearly as damaging as the Human-led Great Crusade was. During the Great Crusade, the Imperium literally made every Xenos race it found extinct, except for the ones who could get away (Eldar), or those who were non-sentient enough to be considered not a threat and ignored. No other humanoid race has had a more hostile and cancerous influence on the Galaxy than Humanity.

First of all, the Craftworld Eldar did nothing to prevent the Fall - they and the Exodites ran away, which was the only reason they survived in the first place. Second, the Fall also partly caused the Great Crusade - the Warp Storms that heralded the Fall, along with the rebellion of the Men of Iron and increasing numbers of Human psykers brought about the Old Night. Furthermore, during the millennia of the Old Night, Humans were largely oppressed and taken advantage of by aliens - around five thousand years of alien oppression, do you really think the Humans would forgive that? That logic is stupid and unworkable - obviously the first thing that a united Human race would do is to seek revenge and ensure that they would never go under the thumb of aliens ever again.

That just makes the Eldar look like spoiled brats - compared to everyone else, and especially the Humans, Tau, and Necrons, they got everything relatively easily and without actually working for it. Humans, Tau, and Necrons had to work their way up to where they are now.

Humanity got its technology from the Void Dragon and the Necrons got their best stuff from the C'Tan.

Only partly correct - while the Void Dragon did influence the Golden Age of Technology Humans and the early Mechanicum, it never actually taught them how to build things or gave them something willingly; in stark contrast, the Eldar were personally taught by their 'gods' and were given gifts by the Old Ones.

Anyway, it's entirely obvious that Eldar are superior to Humanity in everything but numbers. Sans a few exceptions such as the Emperor and Magnus, Eldar are stronger Psykers. They don't require gene-enhancements and bionics to have Space Marine level physical characteristics. Eldar society is significantly more advanced than the Imperium, with every Eldar having all the material possessions they could ever want they don't even use currency, and they can do whatever they want with their lives at any time. They never attack other factions out of spite or a desire to conquer, fighting only if threatened, or to prevent a foreseen disaster, and have absolutely no problem with letting other factions handle their own business so long as that business doesn't result in harm to Eldar lives. It's hard to find a less malevolent faction in a universe filled with malevolent factions.

Which further proves my point - since Humans have to go so far to reach their current level (and even further to reach the peak of their power), it makes them more deserving of the galaxy as opposed to someone who was given everything (and squandered it away just because they were bored and had nothing better to do).

 Tadashi wrote:
First of all, the Craftworld Eldar did nothing to prevent the Fall - they and the Exodites ran away, which was the only reason they survived in the first place.

Incorrect. It's noted that the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar fled only because they were persecuted by their kin and foresaw that there was no way to prevent The Fall from happening- or have you forgotten that Eldar possess the ability to foresee things?

Second, the Fall also partly caused the Great Crusade - the Warp Storms that heralded the Fall, along with the rebellion of the Men of Iron and increasing numbers of Human psykers brought about the Old Night.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
First of all, the Craftworld Eldar did nothing to prevent the Fall - they and the Exodites ran away, which was the only reason they survived in the first place.

Incorrect. It's noted that the Craftworld and Exodite Eldar fled only because they were persecuted by their kin and foresaw that there was no way to prevent The Fall from happening- or have you forgotten that Eldar possess the ability to foresee things?

So they foresaw it...but they still ran away. In other words, they gave in to fate rather than fight it, which is what a Human would have done. Cowards...to cry out against fate and to fight it to create a destiny of your own design is true strength.

Second, the Fall also partly caused the Great Crusade - the Warp Storms that heralded the Fall, along with the rebellion of the Men of Iron and increasing numbers of Human psykers brought about the Old Night.

No, the Fall enabled the Crusade- it didn't cause it. There's a huge difference between those two notions.

Doesn't change the fact one of the three reasons why the Golden Age of Technology ended was because of the Warp Storms the decadent Eldar were causing.

Furthermore, during the millennia of the Old Night, Humans were largely oppressed and taken advantage of by aliens

The same article that states that Humans were enslaved by xenos also states that many of the human worlds had also formed peace treaties and alliances with them, so that goes out the window. Humanity wasn't treated any differently from any of the other factions within the Galaxy. However, no other faction besides Humans have made it a point to butcher every single alien they come into contact with regardless of how threatening they are, besides maybe the Orks. Humanity has taken more life than any other group in the Galaxy by far.

Still doesn't justify forgiveness by the Human race as a whole, whose re-united state wisely chose to ensure never to let it happen again, no matter the cost.

Only partly correct - while the Void Dragon did influence the Golden Age of Technology Humans and the early Mechanicum, it never actually taught them how to build things or gave them something willingly; in stark contrast, the Eldar were personally taught by their 'gods' and were given gifts by the Old Ones.

It's stated numerous times that the Eldar were inventors, off the top of my head the 4E Codex states that they invented and designed their plasma weapons, which are far superior to the Imperiums.

So no.

Yes...because everything they have was only possible because the knowledge and ability was willingly given to them by some elder race. Anything the Humans got from another race had to obtained at great cost. Even if flawed, at least Imperial/Human designs are original in the sense they weren't made utilizing 'gifts' from others - even the knowledge of the Void Dragon had to be coerced passively. Furthermore, Imperial technology is not at its height - I imagine Golden Age of Technology-era Human plasma weapons are on par if not superior to Eldar plasma weapons.

Which further proves my point - since Humans have to go so far to reach their current level (and even further to reach the peak of their power), it makes them more deserving of the galaxy as opposed to someone who was given everything (and squandered it away just because they were bored and had nothing better to do).

It doesn't, because the Imperium can't even take care of itself. It's ridiculously corrupt, it's Xenocidal tendencies have gotten it in more trouble than out of trouble, and it slaughters its own people and oppresses them so hard that while every Imperial planet should be a paradise planet like the Eldars' were pre-Fall and their technology should be the best in the Galaxy's, they're instead hell-holes and Imperium tech is back-sliding at an astounding rate. If the Imperium can't keep its own empire together, what right do they have to the Galaxy?

 Tadashi wrote:
.to cry out against fate and to fight it to create a destiny of your own design is true strength.

You mean like how Horus did?

Doesn't change the fact one of the three reasons why the Golden Age of Technology ended was because of the Warp Storms the decadent Eldar were causing.

And that's a non-sequitier that has nothing to do with the Imperium choosing to start a Great Crusade which resulted in the extinction of 90% of the Galaxy's sentient life forms, earning the Imperium the title King of the Douchebags.

Still doesn't justify forgiveness by the Human race as a whole, whose re-united state wisely chose to ensure never to let it happen again, no matter the cost.

Except this discussion isn't about "forgiveness", it's about "is Humanity a scumbag race compared to the Eldar because they butcher everything in sight", to which the answer is ultimately yes. The Eldar have learned from experience that being indiscriminate psychopathic mass murderers only hinders one's goals- Humanity has not.

Yes...because everything they have was only possible because the knowledge and ability was willingly given to them by some elder race.

Prove it. The Old Ones gave them some technology, but their greatest gift to them were brilliant minds. By your logic Einstein isn't a genius because school "gave him" a foundation on which to build his theories and inventions atop of.

1) Everyone in the galaxy is out to get them, and yet the Imperium still endures.
2) The only species (apart from the Orks) who has the innate strength to fight fate and forge its own destiny.

These are both non-sequitiers.

BlaxicanX wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:
.to cry out against fate and to fight it to create a destiny of your own design is true strength.

You mean like how Horus did?

The whole point behind the Imperium's existence is to ensure Mankind's dominion regardless of whatever fate - unfortunately governed by Tzeentch - throws at it.

Doesn't change the fact one of the three reasons why the Golden Age of Technology ended was because of the Warp Storms the decadent Eldar were causing.

And that's a non-sequitier that has nothing to do with the Imperium choosing to start a Great Crusade which resulted in the extinction of 90% of the Galaxy's sentient life forms, earning the Imperium the title King of the Douchebags.

UNCARING. Ends justify the means.

Still doesn't justify forgiveness by the Human race as a whole, whose re-united state wisely chose to ensure never to let it happen again, no matter the cost.

Except this discussion isn't about "forgiveness", it's about "is Humanity a scumbag race compared to the Eldar because they butcher everything in sight", to which the answer is ultimately yes. The Eldar have learned from experience that being indiscriminate psychopathic mass murderers only hinders one's goals- Humanity has not.

We have nothing to learn from a failed race who runs from its nature or revels in it - we take what we need and Warp take the rest.

Eldar are just as bad as humanity...
They care for themselves only. The only reason they ever help others is to preserve themselves without doing any fighting...
The Eldar would gladly see humanity die if it meant the survival of their own race for a bit longer...

 Tadashi wrote:


Xenology is still valid, I think...but the connection between Warhammer Fantasy and Warhammer 40,000 was supposed to have been gone since 3rd Edition AFAIK.

Eldar’s view of self-superiority when compared to humans is quite justified. Humans are fairly close to orks in their conduct when compared to the eldar from their perspective (pointless wars, overbreeding, destroying worlds with pollution, making a mess of the galaxy in general, feeding chaos).

Uh-huh...and creating the most perverted warp entity and ripping a hole in reality doesn't count as making a mess?

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread, however, I had to comment on this one part right here...

While the Eldar may have caused the birth of Slaanesh, and that may have taken several hundred million years for their race to decay into such a state as to cause this massive implosion of space and time... Answer me this, how young is the human race in comparison? And how many chaos gods have they spawned? Oh, and they did it before Slaanesh was born? Seems like a bit of a petty argument, especially since the Eldar are at least actively trying to make up for their mistake (Methods depend on the variety of Eldar ofc) where as humanity is still doing what they always do.

 purplefood wrote:
Eldar are just as bad as humanity...
They care for themselves only. The only reason they ever help others is to preserve themselves without doing any fighting...
The Eldar would gladly see humanity die if it meant the survival of their own race for a bit longer...

Simply put: they have no right to judge us.

Humanity doesn't really have a choice...
In order to survive their entire society needs to be keyed to war and war production.
With the arrival of the Tyranids for instance war production and mobilisation of troops in Segmentum Ultima needs to be increased by 500% at a minimum...
If humanity had a leader with both the authority, the power and the wisdom (Basically the Emperor) to reorganise, and regroup its military forces and its society then they could make progress.

 Amanax wrote:

Answer me this, how young is the human race in comparison? And how many chaos gods have they spawned? Oh, and they did it before Slaanesh was born? Seems like a bit of a petty argument, especially since the Eldar are at least actively trying to make up for their mistake (Methods depend on the variety of Eldar ofc) where as humanity is still doing what they always do.

Three to be precise...Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle. Which speaks for itself regarding the powerful potential the Humans have if they succeed in taming themselves (which might happen, but won't, since GW is never going to move the story forward). And TBH, I would sooner see the galaxy in the hands of the Powers, than in the hands of the Eldar.

Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

 purplefood wrote:
Humanity doesn't really have a choice...
In order to survive their entire society needs to be keyed to war and war production.
With the arrival of the Tyranids for instance war production and mobilisation of troops in Segmentum Ultima needs to be increased by 500% at a minimum...
If humanity had a leader with both the authority, the power and the wisdom (Basically the Emperor) to reorganise, and regroup its military forces and its society then they could make progress.

He's currently indisposed...please leave a message after the beep...

 purplefood wrote:
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

Their roots go back to the War in Heaven, but they only 'awakened' after feeding off the darkness pouring out of Mankind's collective psyche.

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

Theie roots go back to the War in Heaven, but they only 'awakened' after feeding off the darkness pouring out of Mankind's collective psyche.

That requires psychically potent individuals on a large scale. Humanity would do it but not in the numbers they are in at the time.
Likely there were plenty of other races that could fulfill the requirements or even multiple species that managed to bring them into sentience...

 purplefood wrote:

 Tadashi wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
Khorne, Tzeentch and Nurgle are older than humanity...

Theie roots go back to the War in Heaven, but they only 'awakened' after feeding off the darkness pouring out of Mankind's collective psyche.

That requires psychically potent individuals on a large scale. Humanity would do it but not in the numbers they are in at the time.
Likely there were plenty of other races that could fulfill the requirements or even multiple species that managed to bring them into sentience...

Also possible...but that would not fit with the fluff from the Realms of Chaos books, but who am I kidding? This is GW after all....

Perhaps Khorne, Tzeentch, and Nurgle only achieved their current 'form' once Mankind achieved dominance and its unstable and slowly accelerating psychic evolution 'shaped' the Powers into their current 'form'.

From what I read about it, the Fall and birth of Slaanesh was predestined, nothing the eldar could have done would have prevented it - the necrons even predicted it 60 million years ago. Also the galactic wide warp storms were not due to eldar behavior but a natural/daemonic phenomena (IIRC). The fall cleared the storms away giving relatively safe warp travel to the other races. Humanity is the main source of fuel for the chaos gods, the HH books implied that wiping out the human race would reduce the galactic threat of chaos significantly.

As a species the eldar do have their flaws, but when compared to humanity they are saints. Humanity has been the chief galactic super power for the last 10,000 years; the eldar were in that position for millions of years. They spared humanity and the other races from persecution despite being in a situation where they could have wiped them out easily. To contrast, one of the first things the imperium did when they discovered the emergent tau was schedule their species destruction. Nearly every species humanity wiped out during its reign is an alien race the eldar left alone. When looking at the two races from the perspective of an outsider(a non-human, non-eldar species), it would be fairly clear who gets the medal for most benign empire.