(Note: this is an edited repost of a post I made in the "Occupy Wallstreet, one year later" thread. I thought it might make for an interesting discussion of its own.)
So, I'm a highschool senior this year, and I've been weighing my options for the future, and getting more and more depressed. I can really only
5 options for myself.
1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
2: I could go to community college and attempt to get a job while I'm at it. Maybe by working really hard, I can start climbing the ladder and getting promotions; I do know some people who got menial jobs at UPS/McDonald's/Target and have since become regional managers. However, there are just too many variables for this option to be really viable.
3: I can go to a university for the full 4 years and end up with crap tons of debt in a stagnant/shrinking economy.
4: I could join the military, but I'm a pacifist and don't approve of most of the military actions that the US has engaged in in the past 50-odd years.
5: Suicide.
When I think about it, these are really the only options facing most people my age and from my background. Jobs paying more than minimum wage require a Bachelors degree, meaning that the market is over-saturated with these degrees, and thus a Bachelors degree is now worth less than what a diploma used to be worth. To get a Bachelors degree, I will have to go into debt as I don't have rich parents-quite the opposite, I'm from a family that can barely afford a $75 printer. Not a single politician really cares about the higher-ed. dilemma, although they are eager to use it to get votes.
6. Wait until you get a bit older and things start to make a lot more sense...seriously...you're in high school, there's a lot more to look forward to in life than your employment options!
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: (Note: this is an edited repost of a post I made in the "Occupy Wallstreet, one year later" thread. I thought it might make for an interesting discussion of its own.)
So, I'm a highschool senior this year, and I've been weighing my options for the future, and getting more and more depressed. I can really only
5 options for myself.
1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
2: I could go to community college and attempt to get a job while I'm at it. Maybe by working really hard, I can start climbing the ladder and getting promotions; I do know some people who got menial jobs at UPS/McDonald's/Target and have since become regional managers. However, there are just too many variables for this option to be really viable.
3: I can go to a university for the full 4 years and end up with crap tons of debt in a stagnant/shrinking economy.
4: I could join the military, but I'm a pacifist and don't approve of most of the military actions that the US has engaged in in the past 50-odd years.
5: Suicide.
When I think about it, these are really the only options facing most people my age and from my background. Jobs paying more than minimum wage require a Bachelors degree, meaning that the market is over-saturated with these degrees, and thus a Bachelors degree is now worth less than what a diploma used to be worth. To get a Bachelors degree, I will have to go into debt as I don't have rich parents-quite the opposite, I'm from a family that can barely afford a $75 printer. Not a single politician really cares about the higher-ed. dilemma, although they are eager to use it to get votes.
Quite frankly, the class of 2013 is 100% screwed.
_Tim?
Yeah, I'm one class behind you. Just graduated last May. I honestly can't think of anything to do besides those. Nothing worthwhile anyway. I chose the military, because it seems like the best option for me personally. I don't know what I'm doing afterwards, and I really don't care right now.
Funny you mention suicide. Unsurprisingly, this is probably the least oft walked path, although even I sometimes contemplate it. I'm usually not a very suicidal person, or anything like that, but I feel like I'm at that point in my life where it goes through everyone's head. I think my life would be complete if I took a trip to Japan, loafed around for a week doing touristy things, and then finished it off by slitting my wrists in Aokigahara,or something else that leaves a nice corpse.
However suicidal I might get, I'm not permitted to end my life unless it's a direct order from my CO, though...
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: (Note: this is an edited repost of a post I made in the "Occupy Wallstreet, one year later" thread. I thought it might make for an interesting discussion of its own.)
So, I'm a highschool senior this year, and I've been weighing my options for the future, and getting more and more depressed. I can really only
5 options for myself.
1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
2: I could go to community college and attempt to get a job while I'm at it. Maybe by working really hard, I can start climbing the ladder and getting promotions; I do know some people who got menial jobs at UPS/McDonald's/Target and have since become regional managers. However, there are just too many variables for this option to be really viable.
3: I can go to a university for the full 4 years and end up with crap tons of debt in a stagnant/shrinking economy.
4: I could join the military, but I'm a pacifist and don't approve of most of the military actions that the US has engaged in in the past 50-odd years.
5: Suicide.
When I think about it, these are really the only options facing most people my age and from my background. Jobs paying more than minimum wage require a Bachelors degree, meaning that the market is over-saturated with these degrees, and thus a Bachelors degree is now worth less than what a diploma used to be worth. To get a Bachelors degree, I will have to go into debt as I don't have rich parents-quite the opposite, I'm from a family that can barely afford a $75 printer. Not a single politician really cares about the higher-ed. dilemma, although they are eager to use it to get votes.
Quite frankly, the class of 2013 is 100% screwed.
_Tim?
Join the peace corp.: Change of scenery, worthwhile work, and you might meet an exotic lady( or man if thats your thing).
Getting out into the world might change your perspective a bit as well...
I was feeling in a similar manner back when I graduated in 2010, except without the suicide bit. Suicide isn't a option just because the job market is... well nicely put, rough.
You're still young and still have time to figure this stuff out.
I went to working in Fast Food, and eventually my current retail job, because not only could I not afford college, but I still didn't know what I wanted to do with my life and I didn't want to go 130K in debt to learn how to weave baskets or something stupid. Only recently have I found what I think might be the career for me, almost three years later.
I still live with my parents, but I've spent the past 2-3 years thinking about what it was I was meant to do. What my Niche was. Now I am studying hard in my field, while saving up that last bit of scratch I need for the college education. I'm studying hard now so when I do start, I can have a good chance to get to and stay in the top 5% of my class, because college teachers are also(from what I've heard from others) Head Hunters. You do good enough in college, and in theory you'll be rocking onto a decent job.
But after High School, I had the same problem. Didn't get a job until about 3-4 months after high school, and I wasn't just slacking off. I was putting in applications everywhere. And when I finally started to pursue the Career I though was for me outside of all of the work I did towards that goal in High School, I couldn't make it because of my vision problems. So I was lost and just worked in Fast Food until I found my new career path.
What I'm trying to say( and probably not doing the best of jobs at it. ) is this: You have plenty of time to figure that all out. Maybe after these next few months, you'll feel strongly enough about your career of choice that you think it's worth going into debt temporally, maybe you'll not know what to do and just save up money for when you figure that out. But stressing out about how you're screwed will do nothing.
Jihadin wrote: I rather get paid to see the world at the government expense
Likewise
Also, from what I've heard, the Peace Corps is really selective and are primarily taking only college people. You'd think they'd accept everyone, but I guess not. Even charity requires education!
being a plumber or a janitor (anything like that) at least in my experience repels women like the plague
but its either work in a grocery store talking to idiots making no money and have shallow friends
or be alone working as a janitor and having my own house
Everyone always says gak like "Oh no, the economy is bad, I'll never get a job, boo hoo hoo."
BS. The job market isn't bad in every field. A computer science degree from a good college basically guarantees you a job, as long as you don't try to pigeon hole yourself into a field like video games. I only have a partial degree at the moment, but I still make enough at my current job to pay off my loans, support myself, and save a couple hundred a month on top of that. When I finally finish my degree, my salary will jump at least another 10k.
100k in debt might seem like a lot of money for a degree. And you know what, it is. However, consider that it will cost you around $12,000 a year for like 10-15 years to pay it off. You can live pretty comfortably on like $30,000 a year, depending on where you live (especially if you have a roommate). Pretty much ANY job requiring a college degree pays AT LEAST $42,000 a year, many of them much higher.
You shouldn't worry about paying back your loans, unless you make a seriously stupid college degree choice like pretty much any degree in liberal arts.
1. Assumes that a 4-year degree is the most awesome thing in the world.
3. Again assumes the same and you are taking a bigger debt load.
4. Given your feelings this one is out.
5. A non-starter.
From experience, employers want a 22 year old employee with a PhD and at least 10 years experience in a given field. The big thing is find something you are passionate about. Find someone in that field to mentor you. (Find out what it takes and what you need to get into it.)
As long as you don't pick an obtuse field and you are willing to relocate, the jobs are there.
If i is possible, I rate the job experience related to the field more important than the degree. The degree helps to open the door and maybe keeps your ceiling in the field higher but experience and youth kicks in the door in your favor. You can always approach the degree part-time or even on-line.
A 4 year degree is nice, but unless you have an Ivy League degree, you are a dime a dozen to an employer. Experience and a degree will win out.
Orrrr
1A you go to a community college where you know the 4 year university of your choice will accept the credits. Save money, get the degree you want. Then leave the country and move to a solid economy? Or let the ups and downs of the American economy pick up. Then you find a good job here and work your butt off so your wanted by everyone you ever work for. Or start your own business and make money your own way. Seriously your in high school like others have said. Calm down relax and realize only 1 thing can make you happy. Working your hardest doing what you want to do. If you do that you'll be fine.
Join the peace corp.: Change of scenery, worthwhile work, and you might meet an exotic lady( or man if thats your thing).
Need a desired college degree these days. They especially want teachers: "All education positions require at least a bachelor's degree and a minimum GPA of 2.5."
You know what. Be a chaplain asst. in the National Guard. Its one weekend a month, two weeks a year, get the Post 9/11 GI Bill which is SWEET!, and additional income from drill and additional money benefit from the NG. You just have to swallow your view on the US military in general though. Time you become "eligible" to deploy we be in 2014 and winding down operation in Afghanistan. If there's no slots for a chaplain asst. pick some thing else up. There's no madatory "you need to cut your teeth in the combat arms" situation. Explore all options and don't let your personnel view close them off. Because you never KNOW whats avaible till you look. Its really on you.
I really don't think it's as bad as it looks from where you stand. That you even have a chance of going to college is an opportunity many people your age do not have - you're already privileged right now, keep that in mind. You may not get your dream job, but as others have pointed out, there is always a demand for skilled labour. Somewhere, at least. Stay mobile.
If it really looks that grim to you that you're even listing suicide as an option just because of job perspectives, leave the country. I emigrated from Germany to Ireland 5 years back with nothing but two bags and a hundred Euros after a headhunter offered me a position in the entertainment industry, leaving my crappy low-paid IT apprenticeship behind. I never looked back - except when I'm thinking "wow, good that you picked this option".
Just not in a violent manner... like try to drown in goose feathers or something.
Don't just go to a university for the sake of going if you don't have a plan then you'll likely either drop out or graduate with a usless degree that you only chose because it was the easiest.
Get a plan.
Figure out how you want to make a living in your life, and be very specific. "I want to be a math teacher/head nurse/welder" take a good look at every profession that interests you to see if it'll work out. If it looks like it's going to then make it happen.
I would not want to be a high school senior right now. Not because things are hopeless, although they are grim. But because nothing will be easy.
Twenty, even ten years ago, you could get a four year degree, or good vocational training, and be reasonably assured of a job. Now... they're the new high school diploma.
Unless you are academically inclined, highly intellectual, or are damn sure about what you want to study, I'd put off university. Take classes at the community college, work part time, figure out what you want.
More than anything, nobody should go to college unless they have a plan. A generic BA from Directional State simply isn't worth much.
As for your options, I'd say go with #3. Work, take classes, explore, but avoid debt. Keep your options open, and take opportunities when they arise.
So few people have their life figured out by 18 that it's almost criminal that we expect it.
This thread makes me happy, because I already have things sorted out, but at the same time, I worry what else I might do if this doesn't work out, or more importantly, what happens afterwards.
I'm not going to have much to my name besides some money and a few seabags full of uniforms and possessions I amass. The military definitely isn't a permanent solution. Even if you decide to use your post 9/11 bill, you still have a lot to worry about in the time it takes to get that degree.
I'll tackle that mountain when I get there. No matter what I decide to do, it's going to be hard, and I'll have to work hard for it.
Not having read all the posts, you forgot a really big option and one of the best. Create your own job, aka start your own small business.
But yes generally speaking your generation is screwed and not for all the reasons you see. Mine is too. Things that people take for granted today, "Social Security" etc. Forget it exists, you will never see a dime. Pay what you have to at tax time, and start saving for your future self. By save, I mean invest. Become one of those rich people that people on here like to complain about.
Also, from what I've heard, the Peace Corps is really selective and are primarily taking only college people. You'd think they'd accept everyone, but I guess not. Even charity requires education!
1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
If you aren't notably intellectual*, but still think college is something that would be beneficial to you, I recommend this. I would also throw in part of option 2 and say that you should carry a job, or some kind of professional experience. Don't bother stopping at an AS unless you're looking into certain technical fields.
Most importantly, actually think about what you want to do, what you can do, and how you can approach both. High school graduates aren't terribly bright, but much of the issue regarding poor collegiate choices is related to a set of assumptions made by parents. Do your research, figure out what you would like to do, and don't let adults lead you around by the nose.
*Can't get in to a decently ranked school. Despite what is often claimed, where you BA/BS came from does matter.
I vote ya take option 5 as well.
Or quit whining. Every generation has it bad.
Educated votes can go a long way to fixing it.
You just better go "right" though, they'll make "checking out" legal.
It sucks to come out of highschool during bad economic times. I'm sorry for you, but that's how it is.
All you can really do is pick a field with decent prospects, then work hard to put yourself ahead of the pack. Most times you could be pretty much in the middle of the pack and be confident of doing okay, but that isn't true right now, and might not be true for a while yet.
What do you enjoy doing? Are you good at math, science, technical writing, anything?
Electricians make serious bank. It will depend on what company you work for, but if you become a certified electrician and work that job while you study Process Control, you can then become a process control technician, which is a much more cushy job. Or, you can work on an EE degree at night while you work as an electrician. Get you an associates degree, then work as an electrician, then get your full BS in EE or Industrial Engineering.
Welders are always in demand. As are plumbers.
You have options beyond the ones you listed.
dogma wrote: Despite what is often claimed, where you BA/BS came from does matter.
100% this. When interviewing engineering candidates, I don't give a crap where the engineering degree is from, just that they have one.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: 4: I could join the military, but I'm a pacifist and don't approve of most of the military actions that the US has engaged in in the past 50-odd years.
_Tim?
One option here that you missed is joining the US Coast Guard. They are part of the Department of Transportation or Homeland Security (not sure which), not the DoD. Find a rating (job) that will translate well in the civilian world, do your 4 years and then move on to civilian life with the skills you've aquired while you served. You'll get paid for learning a trade and have access to the GI Bill for after your time in service.
Here's the thing: You can no longer get a BA in English and expect to get anywhere in the world. A college degree used to represent your being a member of the upper class, and having a degree in English or the Classics didn't matter because you were in the club.
Now that everyone can go to college it doesn't mean anything.
Just get a degree in the sciences or engineering and you will be fine.
Ahtman wrote: I am shocked to see a high school senior have such a dramatic and jaded attitude toward the future. Certainly this kind of thing is unprecedented.
Ahtman wrote: I am shocked to see a high school senior have such a dramatic and jaded attitude toward the future. Certainly this kind of thing is unprecedented.
Take a bow, sir.
Though, to be fair to the OP, he's more aware that his choices have consequences than my cohort did. We still could rely on the "got to college, get a job, profit" process. Kids now just can't.
Twas ever thus. It isn't like things were sunshine and free cars for the past few decades but now...now things are bad. There are always issues and there are always problems and each graduating high school class thinks theirs are unique.
TheHammer wrote: and those who are entering adulthood have it rough and have lots of reasons to be nervous.
He already said he was in High School, no need to be redundant. Also, I don't think that is a thing. You either exaggerate or you do not, I don't believe you can over exaggerate. Even if you go bigger it is still just exaggerating.
TheHammer wrote: how bad it is than simply ignoring reality and spending $100,000 on an English degree.
If you spend $100, 000 on an English Degree it better be a PhD. If one is worried about the cost it probably isn't very bright to go to an out-of-state private school to spend $25k a year when in-state it is $6.5k.
Like someone said, good welders make very good money, especially in the pipeline business (basically oil & gas).
If you have an affinity for investigating stuff and applied physics/engineering type things, NDT (Non-Destructive Testing) is a very good business to get into, and you can get into it without a degree, though you'll have to start as a helper/scannertech and generally do the dirty jobs.
Though verifying welds pays slightly less than actually making them, there are far more opportunities to climb up the ladder.
Like the army, you get to travel the world (generally you´re in the arse-end of nowhere though) and get paid for the privilege. Generally the pay's better, and you don´t get shot at, though.
We can't make anyone feel anything, they choose to feel that way or not. Pointing out that teens are prone to hyperbole, exaggerating, and thinking their situation is somehow unique in the world isn't exactly some sort of incredibly calculated insult that will do years of psychological damage.
TheHammer wrote: I imagine you typing that as you flex your huge biceps and drink some Steel Reserve like a manly man who mans all the time.
You can be a girl and figure out such a pattern. The only requirement to see such a pattern is to have been out of High School for a year, though some of the more enlightened realize it in High School. The trick you seem to be missing is that the humour isn't in pointing at the guy and laughing, but recognizing that we were that guy, just as OP will recognize it when he gets a bit more perspective. Knowing that teens are prone to certain behaviors isn't an insult any more than knowing that humans at any stage are prone to certain behaviors.
There are two major competing theories on self-development right now.
1. What got your here, won't get you there- Understand the skills you need to develop, and doing things that willpurposely develop them and make you better at them.
2. Soar with your Strenghts- Understand what you are really good at or inclined to do, and do that a smuch as you can.
No matter which strategy you choose, they both start with having a complete understanding of yourself and a realistic vision of what you are good at/drawn to do. Self-Awareness is the first step to successful development as a person.
That is where I would start. Don't worry about the future so much, and instead make sure you understand who you are NOW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheHammer wrote: Wait, so you can relate to this guy and your response is to be a bully?
I would also focus on making sure you have as many doors open to you as possible. You will literally have no idea where life will take you, and keeping as many options available will be huge.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:
So, I'm a highschool senior this year, and I've been weighing my options for the future, and getting more and more depressed. I can really only
5 options for myself.
1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
If you do it right, this isn't an issue. It's the route my wife took just a few years ago when she went back to school.
What you do is first, pick a local college with a program that you want to get into. Then, talk to a councillor at that school and find out what community college they take transfers from. Most community colleges work with local schools, especially the state schools, to make sure their programs are compatible. Know what you need before you sign up for anything, and make sure to listen to the councillor at your four year school instead of the one at the community school.
When I think about it, these are really the only options facing most people my age and from my background. Jobs paying more than minimum wage require a Bachelors degree,
Or, pursue vocational school. Most trade unions have apprenticeship programs. Electricians, plumbers, mechanics and the like make a decent living. Or even just find someone who is doing private contracting work and talk to them about apprenticing. When I had my kitchen done, the contractor I worked with had an apprentice with him. The apprentice was learning how to do the various tasks involved, and being a gopher, while the older guy scheduled the jobs, and did the complex stuff.
Learning a trade may not get you a doctor's salary, but if you think about it, pipes are still going to clog during a recession.
Tigerone wrote: I don't think you have been screwed over but you’re the biggest generation of losers we have ever seen.
Can you explicate?
I'm a college-educated Millennial (28 yrs old) and basically a shining success story by the standards of Ronald Reagan and Traditional American Values everywhere.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: 1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
2: I could go to community college and attempt to get a job while I'm at it. Maybe by working really hard, I can start climbing the ladder and getting promotions; I do know some people who got menial jobs at UPS/McDonald's/Target and have since become regional managers. However, there are just too many variables for this option to be really viable.
3: I can go to a university for the full 4 years and end up with crap tons of debt in a stagnant/shrinking economy.
4: I could join the military, but I'm a pacifist and don't approve of most of the military actions that the US has engaged in in the past 50-odd years.
5: Suicide.
screwed.
_Tim?
My goodness. What ever happened to just getting a job that pays livable wages and being happy? I'm sure there are plenty of people who went to college and still can't get a job. I've been working since I was 15, granted I'm only 21 now but I've still never been out of a job.
Not everyone is going to die with 100k in the bank to leave their kids. Not everyone is a special flower that deserves to be rich. If you work hard and find your own niche, you'll get there, but if you just want it to happen it wont. Face it, you and I will probably die poor just like the rest of the majority of people.
To be fair, young kids these days deserve to be pissed.
The 60s generation grew up and elected Reagan. Which then lead to neoliberalization and Clinton. Which lead to Gen X'ers and them having their head up their own ass. Which lead to Bush. Like, yeah, sure the new generation might be obnoxious and can't stand still without sending a text message for one fething second but it isn't like the preceding generations did anything but feth everything up.
I'm 42 here. There's a big difference in generation thats been at this and those are now coming into it. IMO there's no motivation or inner drive to SOME of the younger generation entering. Its like their expecting most of their needs to met without the effort. I said SOME before anyone jumps the gun and think I said ALL
Surely, you can also see that there is no inner drive or motivation in SOME members of every generation. I'm not sure how you could say that one generation was more or less hardworking than another. It's kind of a useless, hateful rhetoric.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Of course, by that same token, it is a bit silly for a given generation to go on and on about how they've been screwed over by their forebears as if mom and dad had it all handed to them.
Jihadin wrote: I'm 42 here. There's a big difference in generation thats been at this and those are now coming into it. IMO there's no motivation or inner drive to SOME of the younger generation entering. Its like their expecting most of their needs to met without the effort. I said SOME before anyone jumps the gun and think I said ALL
The flip side is that for the latter half of the 20th century, young adults that did try to gain education, training, or work experience were rewarded with good paying jobs and relatively low debt. Today, unless you pick your field very carefully, you can wind up with a very expensive peice of paper.
Come now, P. You and I are lawyers of the same generation. Did we pick this course of action with considerable care? I can of course only speak for myself, saying no. Has it paid off nonetheless? Absolutely.
Youngsters do have to learn what they want to do in life, but not just to end it all thinking they've seen the best of it already. Suicide is the worst option out of all of those posted.
Don't buy into popular pessimism. If you don't like your situation, don't just complain about it... change it! All of us (I'm 42 also with a great job and a wonderful family) went through our stages of growth and learned from our mistakes and successes. That's life. It's not fair but you get what you put into it. Just don't be one of those people who refuse to learn from their errors and keep doing the same thing over and over then expecting a different result. And then makes it worse by complaining incessantly about it.
Good luck to you in your decision. We need fresh perspectives to keep us old farts from getting too cranky...
Manchu wrote: Come now, P. You and I are lawyers of the same generation. Did we pick this course of action with considerable care? I can of course only speak for myself, saying no. Has it paid off nonetheless? Absolutely.
Well, mine almost didn't. I spent a full year unemployed after graduating law school 2009.
But that's the other factor: looking at statistics is great if you're an economist, but not if you're a person. Saying to myself "half of law grads in 2009 don't have full time legal jobs" didn't help me get my job. I'm not sure what did (aside from luck and a good interview), but while I think the OP needs to focus on how not to be a statistic, there's something to be said for degree of difficulty.
Three of us worked the same job, at a roughly comparable level of expertise. I graduated in 2009, and spent a year unemployed. Another guy graduated in 2005 and spent a month pounding pavement before he found his first job, which he left in only a few months. The third graduated in 2002 and had a couple job offers before graduation.
Yeah, it worked out for all of us, but it got progressively harder. A good buddy of mine graduated at the top of his class (admittedly Tier III) with good experiece, law review, etc. He got exactly one offer at a small firm, that within six months wanted to cut his salary. He's on his own now.
Manchu wrote: Come now, P. You and I are lawyers of the same generation. Did we pick this course of action with considerable care? I can of course only speak for myself, saying no. Has it paid off nonetheless? Absolutely.
Well, mine almost didn't. I spent a full year unemployed after graduating law school 2009.
Well, that's another thing we have in common actually and it doesn't really mean that the pay off "almost didn't" happen. It just meant that in the fallout of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression even kids with JDs who passed the bar had to wait a year. Not too shabby.
dogma wrote: Despite what is often claimed, where you BA/BS came from does matter.
100% this. When interviewing engineering candidates, I don't give a crap where the engineering degree is from, just that they have one.
I said does, not doesn't.
Though my comments are more relevant to social sciences than hard sciences. A political science major from a directional will have a much harder time finding work than a political science major from an Ivy.
Polonius wrote: The flip side is that for the latter half of the 20th century, young adults that did try to gain education, training, or work experience were rewarded with good paying jobs and relatively low debt. Today, unless you pick your field very carefully, you can wind up with a very expensive peice of paper.
I honestly wonder how much of that is myth/perception/romanticism versus economic reality (both that the long-ago times were "better" and the today-times are "worse").
I understand what the shift in automation and the decline in manufacturing did to unskilled labor prospects within the US. And I also understand the current glut in "soft" majors looking for jobs.
But I also feel that my generation has a really different prioritization from what used to be "normal". A lot of young people I know have no desire to be geographically mobile, other than internationally (i.e. want to work within 2 hours' drive of their families/where they grew up, or want their company to send them overseas to live in Brazil or Tokyo or some other sexy location).
If that's your over-arching priority, then unless you live in Texas or Nebraska all you can really do is settle for the job that whoever's hiring within 100 mile radius will offer. I myself have moved across the country, twice, for my company in the last 6 years. I'm also doing "bestest" out of my peers. Maybe it's because I'm in agriculture and our industry is generally 20 years behind the times, but whenever the Man said jump and I did, I've made out a lot better for it.
Manchu wrote: Come now, P. You and I are lawyers of the same generation. Did we pick this course of action with considerable care? I can of course only speak for myself, saying no. Has it paid off nonetheless? Absolutely.
Well, mine almost didn't. I spent a full year unemployed after graduating law school 2009.
Well, that's another thing we have in common actually and it doesn't really mean that the pay off "almost didn't" happen. It just meant that in the fallout of the worst economic crisis since the Great Depression even kids with JDs who passed the bar had to wait a year. Not too shabby.
No, I'm not complaining. I'm also not nearly the norm in many ways.
I'm not agreeing fully with the OP, I'm simply pointing out to many people in this thread that things are more difficult now than they were previously, at least career path wise.
Young adults don't have a tremenous underemployment rate because we all love part time work.
sourclams wrote: Maybe it's because I'm in agriculture and our industry is generally 20 years behind the times, but whenever the Man said jump and I did, I've made out a lot better for it.
I'm getting to the party late here, but I just want to chime in saying that I never finished my BS (semi pun intended) degree, and I make more than my friends, one of whom even has a Masters in CS. It's not always the piece of paper that matters; it's also who you know, and how good you are.
I got canned by the owner of a mom & pop computer business about 2 months before it went out of business because he didn't want to pay me anymore. After about a month of scrambling, I got my foot in with the company I'm with because one of the guys I worked with at the job I got fired at months previous left it to come here. He put the good word in for me, I smoked the interview, and I've been watching my pay grade increase since. In 5 years, I've more than doubled my income.
I have to agree Sourclams. I'm in the same boat but I've seen how few of my friends I grew up with have any intention of moving around. And the two of us who have are the ones that are doing well.
And for me Dogma my company paid to move me out to this location when they hired me. I just had to guarentee 2 years employment with them.
Fair enough. I've not seen many employers that would pay for relocation, but that may just be an industry thing. I also don't know many people that wouldn't want to relocate, but that's probably just my odd set of experiences.
dogma wrote: Despite what is often claimed, where you BA/BS came from does matter.
100% this. When interviewing engineering candidates, I don't give a crap where the engineering degree is from, just that they have one.
I said does, not doesn't.
Though my comments are more relevant to social sciences than hard sciences. A political science major from a directional will have a much harder time finding work than a political science major from an Ivy.
Ha! Complete reading fail on my part, but then, I did graduate from the same University that Terry Bradshaw attended....
I'll grant you political sciences and Law. I wasn't thinking of those when I posted, and you're probably right about those. As for Engineering and similar positions, I haven't found that it matters where you went to school, so long as it was accredited.
Jihadin wrote: I'm 42 here. There's a big difference in generation thats been at this and those are now coming into it. IMO there's no motivation or inner drive to SOME of the younger generation entering. Its like their expecting most of their needs to met without the effort. I said SOME before anyone jumps the gun and think I said ALL
The flip side is that for the latter half of the 20th century, young adults that did try to gain education, training, or work experience were rewarded with good paying jobs and relatively low debt. Today, unless you pick your field very carefully, you can wind up with a very expensive peice of paper.
In years past, if you didn't pick your field carefully, you could wind up with an expensive piece of paper too. Getting a degree in art history has never been a good choice, for example. College should never be something you enter into without a good deal of thought, and unfortunately, too many young people today are doing just that. College has become too much of an automatic for kids of middle class suburbanites, in spite of the fact that most of them shouldn't be going to college. To hear many talk, where they want to go is more important than where they can afford to go or what they plan to do after the fact.
Having just been through the process with my wife, who didn't have the opportunity when she graduated high school, I can say that there are plenty of majors that have all their graduates snapped up, and plenty of schools that are affordable without exorbitant loans. Hint: Look at applied Science degrees (Engineering, Nursing/Healthcare) at state schools. My wife did her gen eds at a community college, had them all transfer to UIC, graduated on time, and was hired, along with every one of her classmates, within three months of graduation.
I'd also consider making studying your primary activity when you're in school. Being able to put a GPA over 3.5, or "Graduated with High Honors" on a resume is a good way to be the one that gets noticed in a tight job market. I wasn't wargaming when I was in college, and my wife dropped out of her social circle for three years while she was in school.
It's an investment in your future - don't just throw the money away in hopes of a piece of paper, work it. Know what you're getting into, know what you're getting out of it, and put in the effort while you're there to make sure that it has value.
Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote: 1: I can go to community college to get my electives done and then finish my degree at a 4-year university, and risk having the uni. not accepting my com. college credits.
This happened to me, in 1990. I went to an art trade school, transferred to a real art university and had to start out at the bottom, after 1 year I got sick of it and decided I'd make more money delivering pizza. When I realized how stupid that was, I decided to teach myself web design and here I am now with a real career, but no degree. Maybe it's just this field, but for me a degree is just a piece of paper with your name scribbled on it. Unless you're gonna be a doctor or a lawyer or a rocket scientist, college is overrated. but then don't forget, there is a time and a place for everything, and that's college.. so everyone should try it at least once. If community college is all you can afford, then go. After that's done you can decide if it's worth it to further your education. You'll learn a lot more about real life as soon as you get out of high school.
Redbeard you can also make your hobbies work towards your trade. Half the reason I got back into wargaming is to train up my manual dexterity and fine detail work as I prepare myself for gunsmithing trade school next year. Yes the exact effort doesn't translate over but the eye for detail and getting my fat fingers used to working on 28mm models will make fine detail work on much larger items like firearms cake.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Redbeard you can also make your hobbies work towards your trade. Half the reason I got back into wargaming is to train up my manual dexterity and fine detail work as I prepare myself for gunsmithing trade school next year. Yes the exact effort doesn't translate over but the eye for detail and getting my fat fingers used to working on 28mm models will make fine detail work on much larger items like firearms cake.
Now you have my interest. there's a business stable through time.
Are you actually smithing or just assembling components? There are very few really good smiths able to work over or even create new works now days. Most are just glorified plug and play types.
In years past, if you didn't pick your field carefully, you could wind up with an expensive piece of paper too.
No, its different now. Fields are no longer general things, and the ones that are generalized have low employment rates unless you go to a really good school. This is actually a big problem at the undergraduate level where you'll see majors subdivided repeatedly, and course structures designed to force that; primarily so schools can make more money and professors don't have to teach things they aren't interested in.
sourclams wrote: Maybe it's because I'm in agriculture and our industry is generally 20 years behind the times, but whenever the Man said jump and I did, I've made out a lot better for it.
Did they fund your relocation?
Yes. They'll even provide 2 mos temporary housing for more established individuals, i.e. families. On average someone in HR told me it costs upwards of $20k to relocate a family when you consider all expenses, and that's the reason companies generally require a 1+ year commitment.
Paid/reimbursed relocation has by far been the norm in my experience, the exception being entry-level positions in big metro areas like Chicago/NY where there seems to be 0 competition for entry position applicants.
If you won't consider the military, get a trade.
Seriously.
Car/truck mechanic, plumber, carpenter, electrician, welder, anything like that.
Also, be prepared to move to where the work is.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Redbeard you can also make your hobbies work towards your trade. Half the reason I got back into wargaming is to train up my manual dexterity and fine detail work as I prepare myself for gunsmithing trade school next year. Yes the exact effort doesn't translate over but the eye for detail and getting my fat fingers used to working on 28mm models will make fine detail work on much larger items like firearms cake.
Now you have my interest. there's a business stable through time.
Are you actually smithing or just assembling components? There are very few really good smiths able to work over or even create new works now days. Most are just glorified plug and play types.
I'm going through formal education which teaches design and theory, as well as apprenticing in a custom shop under a master smith. For the majority it is a lot simpler to "plug and play" and still produce excellent custom results that will satisfy users I fully intend to be able to design and build my own work. Not to say that the former isn't useful, for example doing a barrel job for a customer. I can take seven hours to turn the barrel or I can order in the turned barrel instead of a barrel blank. The customer gets his or her rifle back that much faster and I'm that much more efficient and quick onto the next project. Efficiency is the death of a lot of trade skills it seems.
Tigerone wrote: I don't think you have been screwed over but you’re the biggest generation of losers we have ever seen.
I'd love to see you explain that one, but I suspect that you're never going to post in this thread again since it would take effort to explain such a nuanced and egalitarian position. Most of your posts are one liners that are pretty explicitly against forum rules, I'm surprised you're still here at all.
Hah, you posted all of five times since the Occupy protests were going on a year ago and you trudged through those discussions like a bearded hipster punched your teeth out and your rage could only be vented online.
Horst wrote: Everyone always says gak like "Oh no, the economy is bad, I'll never get a job, boo hoo hoo."
BS. The job market isn't bad in every field. A computer science degree from a good college basically guarantees you a job, as long as you don't try to pigeon hole yourself into a field like video games. I only have a partial degree at the moment, but I still make enough at my current job to pay off my loans, support myself, and save a couple hundred a month on top of that. When I finally finish my degree, my salary will jump at least another 10k.
100k in debt might seem like a lot of money for a degree. And you know what, it is. However, consider that it will cost you around $12,000 a year for like 10-15 years to pay it off. You can live pretty comfortably on like $30,000 a year, depending on where you live (especially if you have a roommate). Pretty much ANY job requiring a college degree pays AT LEAST $42,000 a year, many of them much higher.
You shouldn't worry about paying back your loans, unless you make a seriously stupid college degree choice like pretty much any degree in liberal arts.
To the first part in bold, a degree in computer science in my experience doesn't really guarantee anything(at least in my field and region). Complaints I've heard repeatedly is that generally there's a distinct separation between what you learn in academia and what you need to know to do well in real-life. Speaking as someone who works as a software developer and has interviewed people, the degree really isn't as relevant as one might assume. What largely matters is experience and to some extent personality(your ability to work with a team, apparent willingness to learn, etc.).
To the second point, there are plenty of entry-level jobs that 'require' a degree and don't pay a whole lot. A degree alone certainly doesn't guarantee a $42k salary.
Now all that said, software development(at least web development) seems to be a great field to get into nowadays, if you have interest in that kind of work. Learning material, such as it is, is widely and [largely] freely available and you can literally start doing it(to learn and/or for personal enjoyment) right now.
I would also like to back up having chutzpah, being able to write a decent cover letter and having work experience as being valuable even over a degree. For example I was in the top running over the summer for a position flying satellites. (yes in outer space) the only reason I ended up NOT in a position working in the space industry flying a couple billion dollars worth of equipment is another SatComm in the local area ended up having to de-staff, so they were able to staff their openings with pre-trained and pre-qualified flight officers.
Personally I don't blame them for that at all, I'd do the same thing if I could get experienced crew, but the point remains that I was a shoo in till that happened. I don't have a degree, or anything else. Opportunity never knocks on your door, you have to knock on Opportunity's door and maybe try a few windows.
Just straight upThug mug Oppurtunity when you get the chance. I literally loaded my resume from all the schools I volunteered to go related to my field and some that wasn't really in my lane to learn. You have to outright kick your buddy in the nuts to get ahead.
... Mate, I'm 29, married, one child, and I still don't know what to do with my life
I've been in the military, worked retail, worked in a warehouse, welding, got a trade (CnC operator and programmer, aswell as the manual machines) I got a degree in pedagogics and didactics (did 3.5 out of 4.5 years at uni to becone a teacher, but due to school reforms, my first subject I became a teacher in was dropped, and the orher 5 got seriously boinked too), last 3 years I've worked at rehab centers and homeless shelters, working with addicts, homeless and the psycho's.
My suggestion would be to get a trade. Women love a dude with a steady incone, doesn't matter if he's a plumber... My wifes brother became a locksmith, wich seems like a sift job for the cash he's earning. As others have said, welders get paid very well, but it's hard work. A trade is a good starting point, and nobody says you have to, say, work construction for the rest of your life. Things usually don't work out the way you expect it.
I'm hoping to work the nightshift at a shelter come january, but who knows, I might be back working retail/warehouse/security/driving out packages or whatever. Heck, I might go back to working with "troublesome youths" or help out as a substitute teacher. I've even been invited to hold lectures about homelesness and drug abuse by friends whom I met at uni, for their classes.
Main thing is: get money to pay uour bills, and not be totally miserable and burnes out when you get home.
At my fortune 50 company, you can't even get in the door as a Call Center Rep/Backroom Data Entry person without a College Degree. These jobs are hourly and pay 20K to 24K starting. Do you really need a college degree to do any of this stuff? Not at all. Does that matter? Not at all.
Of course, that asumes that we are even hiring for those types of positions. Typically, we hire overseas vendors to do the job. As one of my Executive VP's told me as we shipped a bunch of jobs to Uruguay or something, "We just can't find people with the proper skills around here." Of course, considering all the major Universities in the area, that was a load of gak, what he really meant to say is "We can't find people who will work for a dollar a day around here."
I would not want to be a college graduate these days. The only advise I have for the OP, is start learning how to be an amazing sales person. That is the most valuable skill you can have right now.
There are actually a fair number of opportunites out there. The trick is, they aren't in office jobs anymore. The jobs that are paying well now seem to focus much more on physical work, instead of pushing paper.
Mining engineers, for example. Mining companies are desparate for more of them, and the lack is holding up several big projects. There was an article on Yahoo about how new graduates of the South Dakota School of Mines were outearning graduates fresh out of Harvard!
Trade schools are also having good success placing graduates in decent paying jobs. Things like automotive mechanics, welders, and metalworkers are very in demand (and if you go the automotive route, you'll save a TON of cash maintaining your own car).
Roughnecks - that is, people working on oil drilling rigs - get paid pretty well, and if you stick it out the pay can easily reach six digits - with the first number not being a 1...
College isn't the only route to success. It may not even be the best route anymore. So look at all the alternatives, and find the one that suits you best.
Vulcan wrote: College isn't the only route to success. It may not even be the best route anymore. So look at all the alternatives, and find the one that suits you best.
This is very true.
Of course, all of the opportunies you cite require either training or relocation.
It's a pretty recent concept in the the US that a person should expect to find economic and social success in the area of his birth. "Go west, young man" and all of that.
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Redbeard you can also make your hobbies work towards your trade. Half the reason I got back into wargaming is to train up my manual dexterity and fine detail work as I prepare myself for gunsmithing trade school next year. Yes the exact effort doesn't translate over but the eye for detail and getting my fat fingers used to working on 28mm models will make fine detail work on much larger items like firearms cake.
Now you have my interest. there's a business stable through time.
Are you actually smithing or just assembling components? There are very few really good smiths able to work over or even create new works now days. Most are just glorified plug and play types.
I'm going through formal education which teaches design and theory, as well as apprenticing in a custom shop under a master smith. For the majority it is a lot simpler to "plug and play" and still produce excellent custom results that will satisfy users I fully intend to be able to design and build my own work. Not to say that the former isn't useful, for example doing a barrel job for a customer. I can take seven hours to turn the barrel or I can order in the turned barrel instead of a barrel blank. The customer gets his or her rifle back that much faster and I'm that much more efficient and quick onto the next project. Efficiency is the death of a lot of trade skills it seems.
well if you can build to order or take existing parts (or parts you order) and tweak them, then your glory will be great. your name will be a whispered legend among the believers verily thou shalt be held high!
KalashnikovMarine wrote: Redbeard you can also make your hobbies work towards your trade. Half the reason I got back into wargaming is to train up my manual dexterity and fine detail work as I prepare myself for gunsmithing trade school next year. Yes the exact effort doesn't translate over but the eye for detail and getting my fat fingers used to working on 28mm models will make fine detail work on much larger items like firearms cake.
Now you have my interest. there's a business stable through time.
Are you actually smithing or just assembling components? There are very few really good smiths able to work over or even create new works now days. Most are just glorified plug and play types.
I'm going through formal education which teaches design and theory, as well as apprenticing in a custom shop under a master smith. For the majority it is a lot simpler to "plug and play" and still produce excellent custom results that will satisfy users I fully intend to be able to design and build my own work. Not to say that the former isn't useful, for example doing a barrel job for a customer. I can take seven hours to turn the barrel or I can order in the turned barrel instead of a barrel blank. The customer gets his or her rifle back that much faster and I'm that much more efficient and quick onto the next project. Efficiency is the death of a lot of trade skills it seems.
well if you can build to order or take existing parts (or parts you order) and tweak them, then your glory will be great. your name will be a whispered legend among the believers verily thou shalt be held high!
This is indeed my goal oh Lord of the Weanie dogs. I actually knew I wanted to be able to fabricate when I lost the rear sights on my Chief's Special. I don't know why in the nine hells those aren't locked in more permanently to start with but it was a version of the pistol that was in new production when you were knee high to a grasshopper Frazz, so of course replacement parts didn't exist any where. Out of the three gunsmiths in my home town with a good reputation and who advertise for repairs (we have a couple custom shops for specific markets, including a .22 specialist who makes the target guns for the Olympic Shooting team) ONE GUY could machine me up some replacement sights.
Tell that to current college grads, for whom the unemployment rate is dramatically above average, and who are losing the ability to enter the industries that were the basis of their education thanks to years of unemployment and shallow demand.
Jihadin wrote: hey got you ther Frazz...though a GF and a wife are two different authority figures.
1. Hey it was his funeral, I'm just stirring up trouble. The wieners need some new bones to chew on, and recent corpses make the best chewy snacks.
2. See there's the difference. GF = BB. Wife = shotgun. Who has more power. YOU decide.
) is this: You have plenty of time to figure that all out. Maybe after these next few months, you'll feel strongly enough about your career of choice that you think it's worth going into debt temporally, maybe you'll not know what to do and just save up money for when you figure that out. But stressing out about how you're screwed will do nothing.
