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Post by: Kroothawk
Hi there,
In our second Games Day preview newsletter we’re not only revealing what new models we’re releasing on the day, but what new scenery we’ll have on sale too! We’re also now able to announce that the ever-popular Forge World seminars will be returning to Games Day UK. Read on for more!
Games Day UK Pre-release Kits: Space Marine Typhon Heavy Siege Tank
Named for the ‘Great Beast’ of Ancient Terran myth, this immense siege tank was developed by the Mechanicum alongside the Spartan, with which it shares a basic chassis design.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/Typhon.html £95.00
The Typhon’s primary armament is the massive Dreadhammer cannon, and was created in response to a request from the Primarch Peturabo, master of the Iron Warriors. He demanded a Legiones Astartes war engine that could rival the great batteries of the Imperial Crusade Army in firepower, but manoeuvre and deploy at the speed of a Space Marine force.
The Typhon Heavy Siege Tank is a detailed multi-part resin model, designed by Phil Stutcinskas which will be on sale in limited numbers at Games Day UK. This mighty siege tank makes for an intimidating centrepiece indeed, and rules for fielding it as part of a Space Marine Legion are printed in The Horus Heresy Book I: Betrayal.
Realm of Battle Cityscape Tiles
In a galaxy beset by war, Imperial architecture is by necessity brutal and fortified. Should the Alien, the Traitor or the Heretic attempt to assault an Imperial world, more often than not it is the great cities of humanity that become battlegrounds; open plazas turning into killing grounds while shattered hab-blocks and ruined Administratum complexes become garrisoned redoubts. The humble tools of civilian infrastructure are transformed into key objectives, with generatorum waypoints becoming vital sources of power and sewer networks being pressed into service as guerrilla highways and concealed ambush points.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/City_Sectors.html £75.00 each
Forge World scenery designer Blake Spence has been hard at work over the past few months creating four modular Realm of Battle Cityscape tiles. Each is light weight and durable thanks to the hollow resin method we use, and each 2' x 2' (610 mm x 610 mm) tile is a blank canvas which is fully compatible with your plastic Citadel scenery.
The Shattered Plaza, Generatorum Sector, Primus Sector and Concourse Sector will each be on sale in limited numbers for the first time at UK Games Day, in advance of their scheduled release.
Forge World Seminars at Games Day UK
At this year’s Games Day, Tony Cottrell and Alan Bligh will be hosting two sessions of the ever-popular Forge World seminar; a short presentation followed by a Q&A session in which you’ll be able to grill Alan and Tony about almost any aspect of Forge World to your heart’s content.
Each seminar is limited to 150 people and tickets will be available free on a first come, first served one-per-person basis as soon as Games Day opens. You can get your ticket from Games Workshop staff at the doors to the Lakeside Gallery Restaurant, which is near the Forge World Studio area.
Seminar 1 begins at 11am and Seminar 2 begins at 2pm. Once you’ve got your ticket there’s no need to queue or wait around, simply return to the Lakeside Gallery Restaurant in time for your chosen seminar and you’ll be able to go straight in.
Games Day UK
We’re going to be bringing you a Forge World newsletter every day this week with details of what we’ll be showcasing, displaying and pre-releasing at Games Day UK on Sunday 23rd September.
Tickets are still available for the biggest Games Workshop event of the year, so pop into your local Hobby Centre, call GW Customer Service on 0115 91 40000 or visit the Games Workshop online store to buy them.
We’ve also added a Games Day UK page to the Forge World website, and beside our daily newsletters it’s here that you’ll find all the latest information about everything we’ll be doing, pre-releasing and displaying at Games Day.
Thanks,
Ead Brown
Customer Service Manager
Forge World
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Post by: pretre
That Typhon is cool!
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Post by: kronk
Where does the driver and crew sit in that thing? How many rounds of ammunition can it hold...
Those tiles look sweet, but expensive.
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Post by: Kroothawk
 kronk wrote:Where does the driver and crew sit in that thing? How many rounds of ammunition can it hold...
Guess the small window above the gun barrel indicates where the driver sits. But I agree, that realism was not a major consideration when designing this. Looks like a cheap toy from childhood to me, only that it costs £95.00. But fits with the cheap toy look of all SM flyers and the new CSM releases.
I also agree that the new boards look tempting, but not 75£ of tempting ATM.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
The barrel has what looks like vent holes, suggesting it's a siege mortar like the WW2 Sturmtiger.
This means very little recoil for such a huge gun, so it's won't take up as much space as it seems to.
But probably very little ammo carried (but then how often do bolters run out),
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Post by: Porkandbeans
youve missed the jetbikes from the typhon hyperlink in the email, clever hidden it is...
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Events/UK_Games_Day_2012.html#typhon
scroll down for marinez on jetbikes with plasma cannons!
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Post by: Commander Cain
Cool stuff! Typhon is pretty good and it probably has IG players across the globe a bit mad now.
Tiles are also very nice. I would have to see them painted first obviously but I think they work really well. In fact I think there was a thread not too long back where some big flat city tiles came into discussion. These would be perfect!
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Post by: MajorTom11
City boards aren't specifically HH, so this does merit a bit of discussion... I just wish they were cheaper! And that I hadn't just bought the regular RoB board lol!
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Post by: Alpharius
DAMN!
Those Realm of Battle Cityscale tiles are HOT!
"Talk of the Town" on Dakka Dakka HOT!
Wait... they cost how much?
No sale! 
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Post by: pretre
I was going to chide you on your negativity and then saw the price. Even my apologist heart melted at the sight. Holy schnapps!
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Post by: kronk
I was calling them expensive before it was cool... 
They do look pretty, though.
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Post by: Commander Cain
I was thinking to myself that they weren't all that badly priced. Then I saw it said "each" and I went a bit pale.
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Post by: Lovepug13
The tiles are pure win.......I am tempted to buy them.....gonna see how much enthusiasm I get from the gaming group on Wednesday evening....
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Post by: Alpharius
Lovepug13 wrote:The tiles are pure win.......I am tempted to buy them.....gonna see how much enthusiasm I get from the gaming group on Wednesday evening....
All £300's worth?!?
Good for you - and your gaming group!
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Post by: pretre
Lovepug13 games with Romney. 
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Post by: Brother SRM
I would love those RoB tiles, but it would cost $730 for a 4x6 table! For that price they should at least take me out to dinner first 
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Post by: pretre
 Brother SRM wrote:I would love those RoB tiles, but it would cost $730 for a 4x6 table! For that price they should at least take me out to dinner first
Alright, but no kissing on the lips.
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Post by: Jackal
Tempted to buy 1 or 2 tiles for a display board.
Just a shame they are bloody £75 each or i would have gone for a 4" x 6" block.
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Post by: logg_frogg
 MajorTom11 wrote:City boards aren't specifically HH, so this does merit a bit of discussion... I just wish they were cheaper! And that I hadn't just bought the regular RoB board lol!
I'm on this train of thought myself but I'm still tempted to drop some cash on this >.< It will def have to be budgeted....
I boiught the first one they did that is some sort of underground bunker emplacement. I didn't mind shelling out for that because there is a lot of detail in it.
These on the other hand are fairly plain in comparison... They will def be taking second place to filling out my Chaos army with piles of new plastic.
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Post by: Bolognesus
 Alpharius wrote:Lovepug13 wrote:The tiles are pure win.......I am tempted to buy them.....gonna see how much enthusiasm I get from the gaming group on Wednesday evening....
All £300's worth?!?
Good for you - and your gaming group!
450 Quid you mean? at least, for the full 6'x4' table to play a nice, big cityscape game... I think for that kind of cash there's better terrain to be had (or built), but to each his own
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Post by: Alpharius
I thought he was only talking about the 4 pictured here, Mr. Nitpicker!
4 x £75 = £300!
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Post by: Kroothawk
But we are saving income tax
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Post by: ShumaGorath
After having the wonderful master of the ravenwing design for so long, the HH jetbikes seem a little... Phallic and terrible looking.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Actually, I didn't miss them because they are not part of this newsletter ... and have been dealt with several days ago in the HH thread.
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Post by: Brother SRM
 logg_frogg wrote:
These on the other hand are fairly plain in comparison... They will def be taking second place to filling out my Chaos army with piles of new plastic.
These definitely have less going on while being more play-friendly than the other one. I'd like to see some better (or painted!) pictures of them to assess the detail.
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Post by: ph34r
75 pounds for one 2'x2' square? That does not come with buildings? Is anyone seriously going to buy this? I can make you a blank plastic 2x2 square for a whole lot less than $150+20% VAT+15% shipping.
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Post by: Ozymandias
But I don't want a blank one ph34r. I want a sculpted one. Can you make 6 of those for me? Pretty please?
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Post by: Clang
A darned shame the cityscape boards are so expensive - if they were the same price as the normal RoB set, they'd make a very attractive alternative for those who prefer 'urban' to 'rural' war. ( I'm aware the FW versions are a different manufacturing process to the GW RoB ones, so my wish will never come true unless GW decide to make them, which seems terribly unlikely.)
I know FW deliberately aim for niche products, but the price seems ridiculously elitist. :(
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Post by: AlexHolker
 ShumaGorath wrote:After having the wonderful master of the ravenwing design for so long, the HH jetbikes seem a little... Phallic and terrible looking.
The kindest thing I can say about it is that it looks like he's riding an oversized plasma pistol.
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Post by: -Loki-
The Urban tiles really make me want to get cracking on some more buildings and make a city table.
The price just makes me want a zuzzy broken blacktop mat.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Cityscape tiles... so you can pay ludicrous amounts for it and still not have any actual terrain...
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Post by: Ozymandias
Isn't there an Aussie company that does pretty good cityfight tiles? This makes me want to get them instead.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
I know which one you're talking about (although I can't for the life of me remember the company's name). They may be a bit fiddly though as they have multiple layers and whatnot.
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Post by: Rayvon
I love that Typhon and the city scape stuff looks cool too, pity it costs an arm and a leg, i wont be purchasing them.
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Post by: Sidstyler
...$120+ per tile?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA no. It looks good, but seriously? Even at half the price I'd say you're out of your god-damned mind*.
*Funnily enough I originally typed "money" instead of "mind" by accident. Both seem appropriate however.
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Post by: Mr. Grey
Good god those tiles are expensive. You could probably hire an independent terrain/board maker to create a full 6'x4' table for less than the cost of 6 of those city tiles.
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Post by: Alpharius
 Sidstyler wrote:...$120+ per tile?
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA no. It looks good, but seriously? Even at half the price I'd say you're out of your god-damned mind
I don't know about that - at $60 each I think they'd sell a lot, and might actually be 'worth' it...
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Post by: Brother-Captain Scotti
Everything for the HH is looking outrageously expensive, I would never in a million years pay £95 for that tank and certainly nowhere near £70 for the bikes!
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Post by: Talarn Blackshard
I really want mk IV armor but ... ugh don't know if its worth my wifes wrath at the overall cost...
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Post by: Kirasu
Hello Forgeworld.. people want to buy your cityscape boards to make an ENTIRE board with not 1 section. Therefore if they cannot afford an entire board then they won't even buy a single piece.
IE make it affordable to purchase 6. Even I won't buy these at those prices.
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Post by: filbert
It baffles me, really. Without sounding like too much of an arse, I would say I am fairly well off with disposable income enough; certainly more so than your average teenager/youngster.
With that being said, if I can baulk at FW's prices, then it kind of begs the question, who the hell is buying this stuff? The sort of person who would pay £100 for what is effectively a glorified chess piece and not blink, if I am being rhetorical, clearly...
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Post by: Peregrine
Alpharius wrote:I don't know about that - at $60 each I think they'd sell a lot, and might actually be 'worth' it...
Especially when the standard realm of battle tiles are about $50 each, and these are much better.
But really, the price isn't all that surprising. Don't forget that you're talking about a 2'x2' resin model, and some of that price probably includes the increase in shipping cost compared to a "normal" $100 resin model. Does it mean that making a full 6x4 table is expensive? Of course, but there's no getting around that when you're using a much more expensive material than the typical wood and foam table (usually with a fraction of the detail), and it's really a case of "you get what you pay for".
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Post by: Master Melta
No justification for the price. I commented as much on their facebook page along with some others. If it had any dimension to it, that would help, but that is waaaaay to much
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Post by: Rayvon
 filbert wrote:It baffles me, really. Without sounding like too much of an arse, I would say I am fairly well off with disposable income enough; certainly more so than your average teenager/youngster.
With that being said, if I can baulk at FW's prices, then it kind of begs the question, who the hell is buying this stuff? The sort of person who would pay £100 for what is effectively a glorified chess piece and not blink, if I am being rhetorical, clearly...
I can only assume that there are people with more money and less sense than ourselves, and in my case, thats saying something 
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Post by: filbert
 Rayvon wrote:
I can only assume that there are people with more money and less sense than ourselves, and in my case, thats saying something (not so much with the money part)
Well, someone once joked that GW's ultimate goal is to sell one kit to one customer per year priced at a million pounds. I can only imagine FW are striving harder to hit that goal.
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Post by: Peregrine
Rayvon wrote:I can only assume that there are people with more money and less sense than ourselves, and in my case, thats saying something
I don't really see why it's a question of sense. If you want to make a table with that level of detail and durability you're going to spend a lot of hours on it (if you even have the skills to build it at all), and I suspect the raw material costs aren't going to be all that cheap. Time is money, and it makes a lot of sense to just buy the table if someone is producing the kind of scenery you want.
Now, if you're the kind of person who is content to play on a sheet of foam spray painted green, of course it doesn't make sense to buy a $700 table, but this product isn't intended for you.
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Post by: filbert
 Peregrine wrote: Rayvon wrote:I can only assume that there are people with more money and less sense than ourselves, and in my case, thats saying something
I don't really see why it's a question of sense. If you want to make a table with that level of detail and durability you're going to spend a lot of hours on it (if you even have the skills to build it at all), and I suspect the raw material costs aren't going to be all that cheap. Time is money, and it makes a lot of sense to just buy the table if someone is producing the kind of scenery you want. Now, if you're the kind of person who is content to play on a sheet of foam spray painted green, of course it doesn't make sense to buy a $700 table, but this product isn't intended for you.
If your time and/or lack of modelling skill is really that lacking then you could probably pay a professional much less than £300 or whatever the US equivalent is to make a similar terrain board. Even for a luxury product aimed at a very niche market, it is wildly overpriced, IMO.
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Post by: Master Melta
While i agree that they are nice, and they should be expensive, and if folks want a super nice board they have to spend loot to get it or lots of time... That much money, per tile, for what you get, a relatively flat foundation of a building, with some odds and ends bits of rubble along a street, with no walls, no interior, nothing else.. it's just too much. I have a nice enough board with GW ruins, and the dimensions that those add far outweigh these tiles in realism and game effect.
Now, if they are coming out with kits to add onto these, making them more 3-D, that will make them even more desirable, but I would simply buy the ruin kits, likely a bit cheaper, and build the foundation.
They are just too expensive for me. Which is a shame because I like good terrain!!!!
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Post by: Peregrine
filbert wrote:If your time and/or lack of modelling skill is really that lacking then you could probably pay a professional much less than £300 or whatever the US equivalent is to make a similar terrain board. Even for a luxury product aimed at a very niche market, it is wildly overpriced, IMO.
If that's true, then I have no idea how any "professional" makes a decent income from their work. $500 doesn't buy many hours of work at anything remotely resembling professional rates (at least in non-gaming fields), and building an entire custom 6x4 table at that level of detail is going to take a lot of hours plus the raw material costs. If you offered me $500 for that kind of project I'd laugh at you and tell you to add a zero or two to the end of it before I'd even consider the deal.
Plus there's the durability factor. Your professional might be able to scratchbuild a nice table, but will you be able to play on it without destroying it? Probably not, which means you're going to have to cast it anyway. And I'm not really an expert on the subject, but I have a feeling that making the molds and buying the resin is going to cost enough time and money that the FW tiles start to look a lot more appealing.
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Post by: Rayvon
filbert wrote: Peregrine wrote: Rayvon wrote:I can only assume that there are people with more money and less sense than ourselves, and in my case, thats saying something
I don't really see why it's a question of sense. If you want to make a table with that level of detail and durability you're going to spend a lot of hours on it (if you even have the skills to build it at all), and I suspect the raw material costs aren't going to be all that cheap. Time is money, and it makes a lot of sense to just buy the table if someone is producing the kind of scenery you want.
Now, if you're the kind of person who is content to play on a sheet of foam spray painted green, of course it doesn't make sense to buy a $700 table, but this product isn't intended for you.
If your time and/or lack of modelling skill is really that lacking then you could probably pay a professional much less than £300 or whatever the US equivalent is to make a similar terrain board. Even for a luxury product aimed at a very niche market, it is wildly overpriced, IMO.
This.
Even for a "time is money" chap, it would still make more sense to buy the cheapest right ?
To me, for the price, it really is not value for money, or anywhere near it, good terrain is expensive, but this is almost just a base for some buildings or ruins.
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Post by: Peregrine
 Master Melta wrote:Now, if they are coming out with kits to add onto these, making them more 3-D, that will make them even more desirable, but I would simply buy the ruin kits, likely a bit cheaper, and build the foundation.
The idea is that you add your own ruins ( GW or other) on top of the foundation. It's meant to fix the problem with most attempts at city tables, the fact that the ruins aren't integrated into the surrounding table very well. Or, if you don't want to have ruins, you aren't stuck with the same layout all the time, you can just take the ruin off and play with the relatively open foundation.
Plus, there's a lot more depth to those than is immediately obvious from a picture at that angle. See that wreck? That's a Rhino. Now compare the height of it to the height of some of those foundations.
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Post by: Master Melta
If I could get an entire 6 x 4 for 400, I would do it, maybe 500, but ~700 US that's just too much, again, in my opinion for what you get....
Im not saying a 2x2 resin FW city tile isn't worth it, but those, at least from judging those pics, there's just not enough....
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Post by: Peregrine
Rayvon wrote:Even for a "time is money" chap, it would still make more sense to buy the cheapest right ?
That depends on whether you want quality or not. You can build a 6x4 table for less than $700, but will it have the same level of detail and durability? Not very likely. If that's fine, go right ahead and buy something cheaper and accept that it won't look as nice. Or, if you want a top-quality table you'd better get used to the fact that $700 is on the low end of the time/money scale.
And I'll believe that you can commission a custom 6x4 table at that level of quality for less than $700 when I see someone do it. And then I'll laugh at them for doing custom modeling work for less than minimum wage.
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Post by: Master Melta
Peregrine wrote:
The idea is that you add your own ruins ( GW or other) on top of the foundation. It's meant to fix the problem with most attempts at city tables, the fact that the ruins aren't integrated into the surrounding table very well. Or, if you don't want to have ruins, you aren't stuck with the same layout all the time, you can just take the ruin off and play with the relatively open foundation.
Plus, there's a lot more depth to those than is immediately obvious from a picture at that angle. See that wreck? That's a Rhino. Now compare the height of it to the height of some of those foundations.
Which means that table just went from 700 to 1000.
that's just a lot of money and all I am saying it it could be cheaper for what you get. I would be all over these things if they were a bit cheaper. I would have to sell an army or not buy more GW stuff to get them, as opposed to breaking up purchases between GW and FW as I do now.
GW would just take about a year long hit...
Since one effects the other, I would think competitive pricing would help.
Then again I don't run the business or know much about it, just that it puts out expensive products!
MM
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Post by: His Master's Voice
Peregrine wrote:Plus there's the durability factor. Your professional might be able to scratchbuild a nice table, but will you be able to play on it without destroying it? Probably not, which means you're going to have to cast it anyway.
While I agree that $500 is... unreasonable, I did a lot of quite intricate terrain back in the day and you could dump it down a staircase without much risk of damaging it. In fact, some of my Necromunda pieces made from plasticard are still in use at my old store, nearly 10 year after the glue has set on them. Durability of DIY terrain is not an issue.
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Post by: JustPlainJim
Peregrine wrote:
That depends on whether you want quality or not. You can build a 6x4 table for less than $700, but will it have the same level of detail and durability? Not very likely. If that's fine, go right ahead and buy something cheaper and accept that it won't look as nice. Or, if you want a top-quality table you'd better get used to the fact that $700 is on the low end of the time/money scale.
You insult my Terrain-Fu! Your Terrain-Fu is weak!
In all seriousness, I've made terrain that looks as good or better, holds up well, and costed me a heck of a lot less in materials. Yes, it took me time to make it. And it'll take you time to paint the FW tiles, or lay down flock, or do anything beyond base-coating it.
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Post by: Kirasu
Resin isn't as expensive as forgeworld makes us think. It's not exactly a new material for making models with.
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Post by: Peregrine
Master Melta wrote:Then again I don't run the business or know much about it, just that it puts out expensive products!
And that's the problem. You would like things to be cheaper, but some products are just inherently expensive. You have to pay the model designer, pay to make the molds, pay for the raw materials at every step of the process, pay for the shipping which isn't going to be cheap on a heavy and delicate 2x2 model, etc. And then of course you have to pay for some level of profit, since FW is not a charity devoted to helping you enjoy 40k. I obviously don't know FW's exact numbers, but there's absolutely no way they're going to be able to produce their stuff at the same price as GW's plastic kits.
 His Master's Voice wrote:While I agree that $500 is... unreasonable, I did a lot of quite intricate terrain back in the day and you could dump it down a staircase without much risk of damaging it. In fact, some of my Necromunda pieces made from plasticard are still in use at my old store, nearly 10 year after the glue has set on them. Durability of DIY terrain is not an issue.
Sure it's an issue. You might be able to solve the issue, but it means putting more work (and probably money) into building solid terrain that you wouldn't necessarily have to invest in building a master model to cast in something more durable than plasticard. I can almost guarantee that by the time you've duplicated those tiles as durable scratchbuilt terrain you'll have spent enough time and effort that FW's price tag looks pretty reasonable.
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Post by: Rayvon
Peregrine wrote: Rayvon wrote:Even for a "time is money" chap, it would still make more sense to buy the cheapest right ?
That depends on whether you want quality or not. You can build a 6x4 table for less than $700, but will it have the same level of detail and durability? Not very likely. If that's fine, go right ahead and buy something cheaper and accept that it won't look as nice. Or, if you want a top-quality table you'd better get used to the fact that $700 is on the low end of the time/money scale.
And I'll believe that you can commission a custom 6x4 table at that level of quality for less than $700 when I see someone do it. And then I'll laugh at them for doing custom modeling work for less than minimum wage.
Il just agree to disagree, while your laughing at him, he is probably enjoying himself producing it.
You would have a good point if the FW ones looked much better than a cheaper one would, but thats a different arguement entirely I think.
To me, its overpriced and thats coming from a person that spends far to much already on FW resin.
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Post by: RiTides
Peregrine- You don't think you could do better for $700? Sheesh...
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Post by: Peregrine
Rayvon wrote:Il just agree to disagree, while your laughing at him, he is probably enjoying himself producing it.
Well sure, if you really enjoy making terrain and you're just charging enough to subsidize the cost of your hobby you might get the price down. But the definition of "professional" is someone who does it as a source of income, and it's pretty sad if your skilled labor is earning you less than working a minimum wage retail job.
You would have a good point if the FW ones looked much better than a cheaper one would, but thats a different arguement entirely I think.
So do you have some examples of these cheaper ones? And I mean full 6x4 tables, not just single terrain pieces. Because the only tables I've seen that even approach the level of detail of the FW stuff would take you a lot of hours to produce and you're not going to get that labor for less than buying the FW ones (at least in any sane world). Automatically Appended Next Post:  RiTides wrote:Peregrine- You don't think you could do better for $700? Sheesh...
Hell no. Making a 6x4 table at that level of detail would take long enough that I'd charge WAY more than $700 for it. But maybe I'm odd in that I expect my hourly rate to be closer to skilled labor than minimum wage.
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Post by: Master Melta
For the record, I am not expecting GW and FW to be inline on plastic vs resin bits, but some FW products are comparable.
As for paying for each step in the business, I do understand that, I just don't know the specific numbers of the company.
That being said, these guys outsource all this crap to be mass produced. Yeah, the sculpt and the mold costs a lot, design too, but advertising and promotion is such a low cost i cannot accept that.
If they only had to sell 100 of these to recoup cost they would have relative ease. If they only had to sell 1000 they could do it easily, but if they wanted to sell as many as possible, then I think they could live off a smaller margin per unit and still be very profitable, especially once initial costs are paid for.
All numbers are representative.
These are luxury items so I understand if they are always out of my particular range. I happen to feel that the company should be in a position to ease the burden on the consumer on some products to keep them in, while squeezing the gems on other products they have to have....
That's how I would run things.
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Post by: blingman
Looks nice but for that price i want much more detail ånd some actual buildings/ruins, not just a base
.
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Post by: Peregrine
Master Melta wrote:If they only had to sell 100 of these to recoup cost they would have relative ease. If they only had to sell 1000 they could do it easily, but if they wanted to sell as many as possible, then I think they could live off a smaller margin per unit and still be very profitable, especially once initial costs are paid for.
That's assuming there's a huge volume of demand for terrain. The old FW terrain sold so poorly (despite being awesome models) that they had to drop the whole line, and they said that they would have had to double the price to make selling it profitable. So they had this stuff up at an absurdly low price (probably only possible because they were just trying to get what they could out of existing stocks and/or molds), and people still didn't buy very much of it. That suggests that high-end terrain is a niche market, and most people are willing to play on low-quality stuff as long as it's cheap.
These are luxury items so I understand if they are always out of my particular range. I happen to feel that the company should be in a position to ease the burden on the consumer on some products to keep them in, while squeezing the gems on other products they have to have....
That's how I would run things.
Except to get prices down to a point where people would stop complaining that FW is overpriced they'd probably be making minimal profit at best, and more likely selling at a loss. Low-volume resin kits just aren't a cheap product, and nothing can change that.
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Post by: Master Melta
Not making a huge profit on one item in this type of business it a good faith move especially when other products are likely at higher than standard profit.
Again, if it were my business, I would be ok selling a limited number of lower profit models to keep customers happy and all their wishes fulfilled.
That being said, I would imagine that the GW plastic buildings were the alternate route to the FW ones, since they were quite cheap. Also, since the first wave failed, they've tried again at less impressive terrain... that's a weird move.
Bottom line, I'm not buying unless i hit the lotto, because I can deal with the cheaper stuff and make the rest. Doesn't mean FW won't sell these to others, they will but it will be for a much more limited group. So Higher prices = more profit per unit, but diminished sales = less over all profit.
I guess we could argue all day over this. I love FW, and am nearly to the point where I just buy their figs exclusively, I just think they missed the price point on these tiles....
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After all, cheaper city fight type tiles would lead to more GW ruin sales... they could go fishing a bit with a little bait and pull in lots more fish as opposed to trying to land a record catch each cast...
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Post by: BrookM
FW's Fellblade is an ugly melon-fether..
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Post by: Kroothawk
I see a major problem with resin board tiles: warping and shrinking. Remember when a test tile on some GD was considerably smaller than the plastic ROB tiles? IIRC they talked about fixing that, but given Forge World's quality control, this will certeinly remain an issue to be watched.
BTW: I added Newsletter #316 to the HH thread.
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Post by: Bloodwin
The price point is a bit steep as it doesn't really blend into the realm of battle boards. The First one they did was also £75 and compared to the Zone Mortalis which is £90 for a 2 foot square board... That said the best thing about these is inspiration. Take ideas from these and make your own.
Also HH T-Shirts? Dammit I want one now. :( Actually I think they should do one that says "I was there the day Forgeworld slew my wallet".
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Post by: Breotan
Bloodwin wrote:The price point is a bit steep as it doesn't really blend into the realm of battle boards. The First one they did was also £75 and compared to the Zone Mortalis which is £90 for a 2 foot square board... That said the best thing about these is inspiration. Take ideas from these and make your own.
You got that right. I've bought some expensive items from FW but the boards simply aren't worth the money. ESPECIALLY the Zone Mortalis.
Buy the bits to make your own. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/326420.page
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Post by: Pacific
Peregrine wrote:
Except to get prices down to a point where people would stop complaining that FW is overpriced they'd probably be making minimal profit at best, and more likely selling at a loss. Low-volume resin kits just aren't a cheap product, and nothing can change that.
Except that everything else FW produces is massively over-priced as well, compared to practically any other manufacturer in the business. Thinking about what the mark-up must be like on some of the tanks (and the forthcoming HH stuff as well by the looks of things), I would hazard a guess that this is probably tagged as part of the 'because we can' pricing policy, an arbitrary figure, rather than being down to any particular costs involved.
Wargaming/miniature building involves a certain amount of imagination, artistic creation and manual skills. I doubt that anyone buying Forge Worlds models, assembling them and painting to even a minimal standards, would at the same time not have either the time or the skill to make their own board (of comparable quality) for a tiny fraction of the price that FW are asking.
Forge World was already an exclusive product, for the relatively wealthy only, and this kind of thing pushes them even further in this direction. When I look at the FW website, I'm starting to feel like a homeless person, covered in detritus and last night's special brew, walking into Waitrose and being eyed up by the security staff. Really, I know I don't belong there
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Post by: cygnnus
 H.B.M.C. wrote:I know which one you're talking about (although I can't for the life of me remember the company's name). They may be a bit fiddly though as they have multiple layers and whatnot.
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/CategoryPage.asp?CODE=CAT_BGND
Far better for the money IMNSHO...
Valete,
JohnS
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Post by: Peregrine
I'm not really sure how. A 6x4 set is going to cost almost $400 (including $60 shipping to the US), and the quality of the tiles is lower. If anything, this just proves the point that the FW stuff isn't overpriced. Even if you're willing to sacrifice detail you're still going to end up paying hundreds of dollars for a full 6x4 table, and you aren't going to find this magical seller who can give you a high-end table for a fraction of the FW cost.
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Post by: cygnnus
Peregrine wrote:
I'm not really sure how. A 6x4 set is going to cost almost $400 (including $60 shipping to the US), and the quality of the tiles is lower. If anything, this just proves the point that the FW stuff isn't overpriced. Even if you're willing to sacrifice detail you're still going to end up paying hundreds of dollars for a full 6x4 table, and you aren't going to find this magical seller who can give you a high-end table for a fraction of the FW cost.
The CNC Workshop stuff is roughly half (which I believe is a "fraction" btw ) the cost and the aesthetic doesn't lock you into the HHHobby if you want something other than moar skullls. Yeah... I'd say that's better value for money in my book.
There's no doubt that covering a 6x4 table with professionally-made terrain is going to cost. I doubt anyone's questioning that. But "almost $400" vice around $700 for the FW tiles is a significant delta by any accounting.
I personally like the CNC Workshop stuff over FW's, even if the prices were closer. But, hey, to each their own... If you don't feel the FW tiles are overpriced then, by all means, buy 'em.
Valete,
JohnS
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Peregrine wrote:A 6x4 set is going to cost almost $400 (including $60 shipping to the US)
AUD$216 (+whatever shipping is). Not $400.
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Post by: Peregrine
I'm quoting in US dollars, compared to FW prices in US dollars (as the "shipping to the US" might suggest). The actual price their website tells me is a little under $400 for a 6x4 set, including shipping.
 cygnnus wrote:There's no doubt that covering a 6x4 table with professionally-made terrain is going to cost. I doubt anyone's questioning that. But "almost $400" vice around $700 for the FW tiles is a significant delta by any accounting.
Except there's also a significant difference in quality. The FW stuff seems to have much finer detail and much better vertical depth, and resin is a better painting surface than the MDF the cheaper stuff is made out of. But even when you take a significant drop in quality you're still paying $400 for a 6x4 table, so if FW is overpriced it can't be overpriced by all that much.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
There is a pack that has two 3x4 sets, total $216. Unless shipping is $184, which I doubt, it's not $400. And these are AUD, which is worth a little more than the greenback, so the price is slightly under that ($212-14-ish).
Where is this $400 coming from?
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Post by: Peregrine
H.B.M.C. wrote:There is a pack that has two 3x4 sets, total $216. Unless shipping is $184, which I doubt, it's not $400. And these are AUD, which is worth a little more than the greenback, so the price is slightly under that ($212-14-ish).
Where is this $400 coming from?
Set your currency to US.
http://www.miniaturescenery.com/ProductPage.asp?Code=CMBBGNDCTY costs $315, plus $56 shipping, for a total of $371 if you buy no other detail pieces to put on the ( IMO rather boring) base. There's a little note at the bottom that explains that international prices include some of the shipping cost, so, like FW, their "high" prices are that high in part because shipping large heavy objects internationally is expensive.
If we assume a similar proportion ($100 out of a $315 item) of the $120 FW tile is hidden shipping costs we get a price around $80 per tile, which is pretty reasonable compared to the $50 per tile GW charges for the awful plastic RoB tiles.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Why would the price jump $100 when you change the currency? AUD isn't worth that much more than US.
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Post by: Peregrine
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would the price jump $100 when you change the currency? AUD isn't worth that much more than US.
See the edit to add a note about shipping costs. Part of the price difference is that international shipping is expensive, so international prices have to go up by more than just the exchange rate, which their website says is what they're doing.
Of course they could just be doing what GW does, and raising prices above the exchange rate difference because they've figured out that people will still pay them.
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Post by: cygnnus
H.B.M.C. wrote:Why would the price jump $100 when you change the currency? AUD isn't worth that much more than US.
The overseas costs include a *portion* of the shipping, so the shipping may (or may) not be quite as high as suggested...
But to the more basic question, even counting it as ~$400, that means you'd have around $300 'left over' vice the FW sets to actually put terrain on the pretty base. $300 is a *lot* of GF9, GW, Basicks, MAS, etc... terrain!
Again, if you're dying to have stuff that fits the HHHobby to a T, I suppose the FW stuff might be worth the extra dough. But, I'd much rather go with the CDC stuff. Having the extra cash left over would just be a plus...
Valete,
JohnS
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Yes, cygnnus is getting to the main point. After you've bought these cityscape tiles... you still need the city!!! That's more $$$.
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Post by: DarkTraveler777
That CDC stuff is interesting. Does anyone have first hand experience with it?
I'd be happy with a PM so we don't drag this thread too OT.
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Post by: Peregrine
cygnnus wrote:Again, if you're dying to have stuff that fits the HHHobby to a T, I suppose the FW stuff might be worth the extra dough. But, I'd much rather go with the CDC stuff. Having the extra cash left over would just be a plus...
It's not about the HHHobby or having "official" terrain, it's about the fact that the FW tiles are simply better quality than the cheaper alternatives. If someone else was producing tables at that same level I'd be interested, but I suspect that you'd end up paying the same as FW. Which is the entire point here: the FW tiles aren't really overpriced once you set aside shipping costs and then compare the quality of the end result.
Now, it's fine if you're willing to sacrifice some quality if it means lower prices, but that doesn't make the FW stuff overpriced.
Yes, cygnnus is getting to the main point. After you've bought these cityscape tyles... you still need the city!!! That's more $$$.
Sure, but that's a common factor in both. Neither product has a city on top of it, so we can rule that part out and just look at the foundations. And when we look at that we find that you can pay $400 for a basic foundation table, or $700 for a really nice one.
(And if anything the "you need a city" argument favors FW, since the FW tiles appear to have some decent 3d elements to them already, while the MDF stuff doesn't.)
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Post by: Panic
yeah,
I've put these tiles on my wish list.
I agree they are very expensive, but they are also very good.
The way I see it if I do few extra 12 hour OT shifts I can pay for this, and It will be 10x better than anything I can make myself.
Panic...
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Post by: Rayvon
Peregrine wrote: cygnnus wrote:Again, if you're dying to have stuff that fits the HHHobby to a T, I suppose the FW stuff might be worth the extra dough. But, I'd much rather go with the CDC stuff. Having the extra cash left over would just be a plus...
It's not about the HHHobby or having "official" terrain, it's about the fact that the FW tiles are simply better quality than the cheaper alternatives. If someone else was producing tables at that same level I'd be interested, but I suspect that you'd end up paying the same as FW. Which is the entire point here: the FW tiles aren't really overpriced once you set aside shipping costs and then compare the quality of the end result.
Now, it's fine if you're willing to sacrifice some quality if it means lower prices, but that doesn't make the FW stuff overpriced.
Yes, cygnnus is getting to the main point. After you've bought these cityscape tyles... you still need the city!!! That's more $$$.
Sure, but that's a common factor in both. Neither product has a city on top of it, so we can rule that part out and just look at the foundations. And when we look at that we find that you can pay $400 for a basic foundation table, or $700 for a really nice one.
(And if anything the "you need a city" argument favors FW, since the FW tiles appear to have some decent 3d elements to them already, while the MDF stuff doesn't.)
Im still wondering how you can tell that one set is so much higher quality that the other, all from one photo.
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Post by: Peregrine
Rayvon wrote:Im still wondering how you can tell that one set is so much higher quality that the other, all from one photo.
Bottom line is, you cant, so most of your argument holds no weight, for all you know they could fall apart after a week.
Because:
1) I'm talking about quality in terms of detail, which is very obvious from the photos. The FW tiles are FAR more detailed than the cheaper ones, they have actual 3d detail instead of just flat designs, and they generally look a lot better. If you value detail (and if you're spending $400+ on a table I hope you do) the FW tiles are a superior product.
2) I own plenty of FW stuff, including scenery made with the new casting method. Unless your average game involves smashing the table with a hammer it's not going to fall apart.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
 Panic wrote:The way I see it if I do few extra 12 hour OT shifts I can pay for this, and It will be 10x better than anything I can make myself.
Being a big fan of your terrain Panic I can say that whatever you do with these will look amazing.
Additionally, being a big fan of your terrain I have to say that you're selling your own abilities short.
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Post by: Master Melta
Alright, alright, We've beaten the overpriced vs worth it to death.
Lets talk more about the tiles!
I think they are great, from what I can tell, from a detail POV.
Since they have only made 4, you would have to duplicate two to make a 6x4 table or risk having a 2/3 table of awesome with a 1/3 table of DIY terrain.
Which two would duplicate the best? Obviously the one with the rhino is out.
I think maybe the concourse and the generator ones....
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Post by: Pacific
I guess these will serve the tiny percentage of hobbyists who have that much disposable income, but for whatever reason don't have the inclination to make their own terrain.
But, as this thread has proven (and remembering that those commenting here tend to be the more keen type of fan) they are well beyond most hobbyists price range.
Learn, make your own, most of us will get far more enjoyment and make something that is at the very least comparable in quality to these boards.
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Post by: Salacious Greed
Master Melta 477196 4789737 86fe185d5373eda3094d1c6e03c857b6.jpg
wrote:Alright, alright, We've beaten the overpriced vs worth it to death.
Lets talk more about the tiles!
I think they are great, from what I can tell, from a detail POV.
Since they have only made 4, you would have to duplicate two to make a 6x4 table or risk having a 2/3 table of awesome with a 1/3 table of DIY terrain.
Which two would duplicate the best? Obviously the one with the rhino is out.
I think maybe the concourse and the generator ones....
Looking at the picture on the first page, I think I'd go with the top two being my doubles. I'm kind of torn on the generator ones, as they're much more raised on the one board edge. Though it is growing on me....
How about everyone else?
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Post by: MightyGodzilla
 Pacific wrote:I guess these will serve the tiny percentage of hobbyists who have that much disposable income, but for whatever reason don't have the inclination to make their own terrain.
But, as this thread has proven (and remembering that those commenting here tend to be the more keen type of fan) they are well beyond most hobbyists price range.
Learn, make your own, most of us will get far more enjoyment and make something that is at the very least comparable in quality to these boards.
I know, for a fact, that were given the money to purchase the full 4x6 table, not only could I make a better table, but with the leftover money I could buy 2-3 battleforce boxes of my choosing....or heaven forbid the terrain to go on the board.
I can also tell you that if a portion of a whit of mold injection I'd be pumping out terrain plates at $20 per. Threads like this make me wish I could go back in time and give myself a little direction. There is such a demand here, there is so much money to be made.
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Post by: Vhalyar
 Kroothawk wrote:http://www.forgeworld.co. uk/New_Stuff/REALM_OF_BATTLE_CITYSCAPE_GENERATORUM_SECTOR.html
Constipated Marine is back.
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Post by: Commander Cain
If they included the plastic buildings and whatnot I would be every so slightly tempted to get a couple. As it is they are just overpriced, flat pieces of terrain.
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Post by: RiTides
That's pretty misleading on their part... makes it feel like it comes with the buildings.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
First it was immovable hills that were always there, now it's an immovable blown up Rhino that'll always be there.
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Post by: Kroothawk
RiTides wrote:That's pretty misleading on their part... makes it feel like it comes with the buildings.
It is not misleading if you care to click the link. I just used the links with the extra stuff, because it wasn't posted yet.
FW wrote:Models, plastic buildings and additional cityscape boards shown in some images are for illustration purposes only.
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Post by: Soo'Vah'Cha
Love the tiles..but I think FW loves them a little to much..that price for a game board is way out there, such a shame, since I have bought almost every game board related product so far. "sigh"
and is it just me or do those imperial speeder bikes look...a little...phallic  ...
Paint them in shades of flesh tone..and they could get you tossed out of your FLGS
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Post by: Miguelsan
Going by GW's funny exchange rates 280 pounds will end like 50,000- 60,000 yen in Japan. I can hire somebody to build me a whole gaming table for less. Sigh, because they look cool as usual.
M.
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So you can have a reference the Chaos Marines Codex costs 6800 yen, a little bit over 80$.
M.
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Post by: Tannhauser42
They look nice, but, oh, those prices. I would almost rather buy the city grounds, levels, and ruins from http://www.miniaturescenery.com and build my own city table with even more customization.
And the size of the jetbikes still bugs me. The fluff claims that jetbikes can't be built today because they can't make the antigrav engines small enough, and yet those HH jetbikes are as big as the current landspeeders.
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Post by: Pacific
 Soo'Vah'Cha wrote:Love the tiles..but I think FW loves them a little to much..that price for a game board is way out there, such a shame, since I have bought almost every game board related product so far. "sigh"
and is it just me or do those imperial speeder bikes look...a little...phallic ...
Paint them in shades of flesh tone..and they could get you tossed out of your FLGS
Haha.. it's not just you. They look pretty cool, but my first thought when seeing them was Peter's car from that episode of Family Guy when he is trying to compensate for his manhood:
Again the argument for those tables is that they would suit people with enough money to blow on something like this (and I think really the price is arbitrary - there is no reason at all they should cost anything like that) but who doesn't have the time. In the same vein, buy your FW miniatures and presumably pay a painting studio to paint them. I suppose there is nothing wrong with that per say, but it makes you wonder what percentage of the 'hobby' would be left for you after all of that.
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Post by: Panic
yeah, Pacific wrote:... In the same vein, buy your FW miniatures and presumably pay a painting studio to paint them. I suppose there is nothing wrong with that per say, but it makes you wonder what percentage of the 'hobby' would be left for you after all of that.
especially if you don't have time for games/ and hate the new WD...
I love these tiles they are on my list... but the list is long.
Panic...
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Post by: Alpharius
 Panic wrote:yeah, Pacific wrote:... In the same vein, buy your FW miniatures and presumably pay a painting studio to paint them. I suppose there is nothing wrong with that per say, but it makes you wonder what percentage of the 'hobby' would be left for you after all of that.
especially if you don't have time for games/ and hate the new WD...
I love these tiles they are on my list... but the list is long.
Panic...
Same here!
It will take a good company bonus and a good tax return, and then, maybe in early 2013...
(Along with all the other FW HH stuff that will be out by then - ouch!)
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Post by: ghagha
Peregrine works at FW?
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Post by: Eisenhorn
Bolognesus wrote: Alpharius wrote:Lovepug13 wrote:The tiles are pure win.......I am tempted to buy them.....gonna see how much enthusiasm I get from the gaming group on Wednesday evening....
All £300's worth?!?
Good for you - and your gaming group!
450 Quid you mean? at least, for the full 6'x4' table to play a nice, big cityscape game... I think for that kind of cash there's better terrain to be had (or built), but to each his own
Very little resale value for DIY terrain,these if times get tough,you will have a much,much easier time selling, I will most likely get at least half my investment mostly likely more.
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